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JHL6719
11-01-2011, 06:05 PM
Apparently Phil Simms doesn't see "big time NFL throws" with Luck.

http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/phil_simms_doesnt_believe_andrew_luck_has_an_nfl_a rm/7806502


Without bringing up either one of Phil Simms' sons, address/analyze his point of view.

Scott Wright
11-01-2011, 06:07 PM
Ha, I remember them saying the exact same things about Peyton Manning's arm.

keylime_5
11-01-2011, 06:09 PM
he doesn't have the big time arm you usually associate with can't miss, once in a decade type sure thing QB prospects.....but there are a lot of guys who were top prospects that didn't have big time arms. Philip Rivers doesn't have a great arm and has one of the funkiest throwing motions to boot, yet was a top 5 pick and is one of the best in the game. He can make all the throws though and has all the other stuff you want in an elite QB other than a big arm in spades. People questioned Peyton Manning compared to Leaf b/c Leaf had this great arm and Manning was similar to Luck in that regard.

very much wanted to mention one of Simms' kids, somehow urged the temptation.

CashmoneyDrew
11-01-2011, 06:09 PM
Apparently Phil Simms doesn't see "big time NFL throws" with Luck.

http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/phil_simms_doesnt_believe_andrew_luck_has_an_nfl_a rm/7806502


Without bringing up either one of Phil Simms' sons, address/analyze his point of view.

Matt Simms sucks balls. Come at me bro.

JHL6719
11-01-2011, 06:12 PM
Matt Simms sucks balls. Come at me bro.


Matt Simms didn't say it, Phil said it.

TACKLE
11-01-2011, 06:13 PM
I don't why this is surprising at all. He very rarely makes big time NFL throws and the offense demands less from him from an arm strength perspective than a lot of spread offenses. I do give Luck credit for improving on his velocity and being little more willing to make downfield throws this season. Still, you can watch several whole games without seeing him make a challenging NFL throw.

soybean
11-01-2011, 06:13 PM
lEOAnxyOrYo

b--MkxLnvJk

soybean
11-01-2011, 06:16 PM
I will say that his td pass and ball placement to Levine Toilolo was pretty ugly though.

bored of education
11-01-2011, 06:18 PM
He is so much better than any prospect footwork wise, reading wise that his above average arm is not an issue at all. His field generalship and ability to throw people open is unparalleled.

descendency
11-01-2011, 06:26 PM
I really hope he's wrong (and I'm wrong too) because I want him to succeed so badly.

Lots of people have their arm questioned and go on to succeed and lots of people who have "too much arm strength" go on to fail.

JHL6719
11-01-2011, 06:36 PM
Is Phil's comment directed solely at the elementary aspect of arm strength though, or is there more to his point of view when he's talking about the lack of big time NFL throws?

I'd love to hear him clarify.

K Train
11-01-2011, 06:52 PM
hes right between bradford (noodle hooked to his shoulder) and stafford (bazooka hooked to his shoulder)

i dont see the problem.

brady has a strong arm, not even close to where he was when he was drafted though, perfect example of a QB growing into his arm

Big Bird
11-01-2011, 06:54 PM
Philip Rivers doesn't have a great arm and has one of the funkiest throwing motions to boot, yet was a top 5 pick and is one of the best in the game.
Are you kidding me? Rivers has a cannon.

TACKLE
11-01-2011, 06:59 PM
lol. are you serious?

asdf1223
11-01-2011, 07:01 PM
Didn't Phil Simms just say that if Mallet wasnt a top 10 pick he would quit?

stephenson86
11-01-2011, 07:12 PM
Are you kidding me? Rivers has a cannon.

Rivers early in his NFL career had a pretty pathetic sideline ball, it has improved though. Just like Luck's arm will improve from perfectly acceptable and Phil Simms is a bellend to more than perfectly acceptable and Phil Simms is still a bellend who wishes his sons had a sniff of Luck's ability.

draftguru151
11-01-2011, 07:17 PM
I don't why this is surprising at all. He very rarely makes big time NFL throws and the offense demands less from him from an arm strength perspective than a lot of spread offenses. I do give Luck credit for improving on his velocity and being little more willing to make downfield throws this season. Still, you can watch several whole games without seeing him make a challenging NFL throw.

BUT HE'S PERFECT AND THE BEST COLLEGE QB AND BEST PROSPECT EVER HE DOES NOTHING BUT MAKE GODLY THROWS EVERY PLAY.

Or yea he throws to open TEs a lot and still struggles with long balls. One of those.

ChiFan24
11-01-2011, 07:21 PM
Are you kidding me? Rivers has a cannon.

Not even close.

49erNation85
11-01-2011, 07:23 PM
lamo is this guy serious?

keylime_5
11-01-2011, 07:26 PM
Are you kidding me? Rivers has a cannon.

http://troll.me/images/futurama-fry/not-sure-if-serious-or-not.jpg

tjsunstein
11-01-2011, 07:30 PM
An attempt to make a name for himself speaking out against the unanimous top prospect? It was only a matter of time before someone did it I guess. It's just funny Phil Simms did it.

yo123
11-01-2011, 07:37 PM
Honestly I see where he's coming from, I think Luck is a stud but let's not sit here with our hands over our ears and say he's perfect. He floats his deep ball and has pretty average arm strength. Also seems to throw a lot of underneath routes at times.

FUNBUNCHER
11-01-2011, 07:43 PM
Stanford's offensive scheme is so highly calibrated not only to exploit Andrew Luck's strengths but also to disguise a lack of elite skill position talent, that just from watching film it's hard at times to grade Luck's pure physical tools.

We all know that he's athletic, mobile, with good size and height. Occasionally he will drive the ball downfield but I agree in part with Phil Simms that his arm strength is overrated.

Luck's arm is adequate by NFL standards and you rarely see him throwing the ball 25+ yards down the field.
Everything about Luck's game is impressive,(anticipation/timing/accuracy) but his lack of elite arm strength is why I hate hearing people describe him as a generational prospect.

Eventually because of Luck's football IQ I think he figures out the pro game, but I wouldn't be surprised if he struggles early in his career.

Is his arm better than Ponder or Dalton's?? I really don't think so.

CashmoneyDrew
11-01-2011, 08:20 PM
Matt Simms didn't say it, Phil said it.

My point still stands. I regret nothing!

TheSlinger
11-01-2011, 08:25 PM
Honestly I see where he's coming from, I think Luck is a stud but let's not sit here with our hands over our ears and say he's perfect. He floats his deep ball and has pretty average arm strength. Also seems to throw a lot of underneath routes at times.

His deep ball floated badly last year but it's been much better this year.

DraftSavant
11-01-2011, 09:01 PM
I think his velocity in the mid-range game (the staple of the NFL passing game) has greatly improved over last year.

And as I've said 100,000 times: if you want to know why Luck is special, watch his eyes and feet while working a muddy pocket. It is uncanny for a college QB to be that good at it.

I honestly don't think his arm is any worse than Peyton Manning's coming out. People always talk about Brady greatly improving his arm strength, but Manning really improved his over the first few years of his career, too.

Iamcanadian
11-01-2011, 09:30 PM
Well Charlie Casserly on Fox I believe, said that he talked to 5 NFL GM's about Luck and they all rated him right up there with John Elway as a prospect, they all said, he is the best they have seen since Elway even if his arm isn't elite just way above average. The rest of his game is all elite.
Luck and Newton will be the 2 QB's of the next decade eventually replacing Brady and Peyton.
Of course, I'm not surprised to see the whiners coming out to criticism the current leader at QB, they think it gives them their moment in the sun when really, it just makes them look ridiculous. Happens every year!

descendency
11-01-2011, 09:33 PM
thisthisthis. and unless we're actually going to compare him to post surgery chad pennington, this is such a half assed grab at something to criticize anyways.

It isn't that black and white though. There are clearly various levels of success. I think the main concern is that the #1 overall pick might have to be a 'game manager' instead of a 'gunslinger'.

Complex
11-01-2011, 09:47 PM
People are overreacting about Lucks arm, He doesn't have John Elways arm but neither do Peyton.Brady.Rodgers, Bree's or Rivers. Even though I don't think Luck is a footbsll god like some people here, his arm is not Chad Pennington.

FUNBUNCHER
11-01-2011, 10:17 PM
Well Charlie Casserly on Fox I believe, said that he talked to 5 NFL GM's about Luck and they all rated him right up there with John Elway as a prospect, they all said, he is the best they have seen since Elway even if his arm isn't elite just way above average. The rest of his game is all elite.
Luck and Newton will be the 2 QB's of the next decade eventually replacing Brady and Peyton.
Of course, I'm not surprised to see the whiners coming out to criticism the current leader at QB, they think it gives them their moment in the sun when really, it just makes them look ridiculous. Happens every year!

Charlie Casserly is 'knowledgeable' and has NFL contacts, but he's also an idiot.
This is the same guy who said he wouldn't draft Cam Newton before the 4th round. I bet the Carolina Panthers are ecstatic he's not their GM.

And I question ANY NFL GM who thinks Luck is the same level prospect as Elway.
Troy Aikman was a beast prospect when he left UCLA. So was Jeff George. Drew Bledsoe. David Carr. Carson Palmer. Eli Manning.

Every one of these guys as pro prospects was considered to have HOF upside.
IMO Andrew Luck would not be the first QB taken if all these guys came out in the same year. He wouldn't be last probably, but I don't believe he would have been drafted before Aikman/Palmer/Bledsoe.

People talk about Luck like he's going to own the NFL, or that he's a lock to turn whichever team that drafts him into a perennial contender.

Maybe.
Or he could be among the handful of 10 to 12 elite QBs in the league who still need help to win their division.

I still think Luck is a franchise QB and a player a team can build its entire organization around. But honestly I can't say much more than that, at least not right now.

DraftSavant
11-01-2011, 10:36 PM
Charlie Casserly is 'knowledgeable' and has NFL contacts, but he's also an idiot.
This is the same guy who said he wouldn't draft Cam Newton before the 4th round. I bet the Carolina Panthers are ecstatic he's not their GM.

And I question ANY NFL GM who thinks Luck is the same level prospect as Elway.
Troy Aikman was a beast prospect when he left UCLA. So was Jeff George. Drew Bledsoe. David Carr. Carson Palmer. Eli Manning.

Every one of these guys as pro prospects was considered to have HOF upside.
IMO Andrew Luck would not be the first QB taken if all these guys came out in the same year. He wouldn't be last probably, but I don't believe he would have been drafted before Aikman/Palmer/Bledsoe.

People talk about Luck like he's going to own the NFL, or that he's a lock to turn whichever team that drafts him into a perennial contender.

Maybe.
Or he could be among the handful of 10 to 12 elite QBs in the league who still need help to win their division.

I still think Luck is a franchise QB and a player a team can build its entire organization around. But honestly I can't say much more than that, at least not right now.

From the more recent guys who I can completely and clearly remember the draft history for...most of them had some sort of flaw that you could find if you really nitpicked.

Carr and Palmer only had one good year. Manning was being overrated because of bloodlines. Bledsoe had a less than ideal completion percentage.

Even the perfect prospect himself, Elway, never even won a bowl game a Stanford and had a losing record his senior season. People would kill that nowadays.

FUNBUNCHER
11-01-2011, 11:25 PM
Eli Manning still put up impressive numbers at Ole Miss. Most of these former 'can't miss' prospects flat out threw the ball better than Luck which would have had some of them rated higher by some NFL teams.

Just saying, calling Luck the best QB prospect of the last 30 years is over the top IMO.

Iamcanadian
11-02-2011, 12:10 AM
Charlie Casserly is 'knowledgeable' and has NFL contacts, but he's also an idiot.
This is the same guy who said he wouldn't draft Cam Newton before the 4th round. I bet the Carolina Panthers are ecstatic he's not their GM.

And I question ANY NFL GM who thinks Luck is the same level prospect as Elway.
Troy Aikman was a beast prospect when he left UCLA. So was Jeff George. Drew Bledsoe. David Carr. Carson Palmer. Eli Manning.

Every one of these guys as pro prospects was considered to have HOF upside.
IMO Andrew Luck would not be the first QB taken if all these guys came out in the same year. He wouldn't be last probably, but I don't believe he would have been drafted before Aikman/Palmer/Bledsoe.

People talk about Luck like he's going to own the NFL, or that he's a lock to turn whichever team that drafts him into a perennial contender.

Maybe.
Or he could be among the handful of 10 to 12 elite QBs in the league who still need help to win their division.

I still think Luck is a franchise QB and a player a team can build its entire organization around. But honestly I can't say much more than that, at least not right now.

To be fair, Casserly never said he rated Luck that high, because if he did, I agree that you'd have to question his ability to judge him. Again to be fair, it seems to me that a lot of the old timers, some of them scouts and GM's have a bias against junior QB's and tend to downgrade them because they just haven't seen the maturity usually found in a senior QB prospect. Casserly and Mayock have shown that tendency.
I am just talking about him as a prospect, not what he may or may not become once he gets to the NFL, and as a prospect, I agree that he is in the Elway comparison. I really liked Aikman, Palmer, Bledsoe and Eli but IMO as a prospect, this guy is head and shoulders above them all.

descendency
11-02-2011, 12:15 AM
I am just talking about him as a prospect, not what he may or may not become once he gets to the NFL

wait... what? explain the difference.

Halsey
11-02-2011, 01:28 AM
Saying something negative about Luck is a way to stand out from all the people heaping praise on him. It's an easy, cliched way to get attention. Just like people on message boards criticizing his deep ball and screaming that he's overrated. Cliched and predictable.

niel89
11-02-2011, 01:37 AM
I've been waiting for the backlash to build up. Honestly, Lucks hype train is huge right now, some of it warranted & some of it because he is the #1 player and it just get echoed. I'm waiting for the super nitpicking to happen after the season, and then when people start to put Barkley over him and such.

bucfan12
11-02-2011, 07:27 AM
Well Charlie Casserly on Fox I believe, said that he talked to 5 NFL GM's about Luck and they all rated him right up there with John Elway as a prospect, they all said, he is the best they have seen since Elway even if his arm isn't elite just way above average. The rest of his game is all elite.
Luck and Newton will be the 2 QB's of the next decade eventually replacing Brady and Peyton.
Of course, I'm not surprised to see the whiners coming out to criticism the current leader at QB, they think it gives them their moment in the sun when really, it just makes them look ridiculous. Happens every year!

I think we're all jumping the gun here on Cam Newton a little too soon. He has all the physical tools and is using his athleticism to create plays right now, but let's see how he does in year 2 when teams prevent him from moving out of the pocket and make plays with his legs.

I don't want to compare him to Vince Young as a passer but I won't do that. But Young did make plays with his legs, then in year 2, struggled when defenses defended that.

That being said, I think Cam Newton will not fold like Vince Young did though. He's shown he's got a cannon and much better passer than Young as well. But lets not annoint him a superstar just yet. Aaron Rodgers will still be around in the next 4-5 years, so Luck and Newton being 1-2 isn't going to happen just yet.

FUNBUNCHER
11-02-2011, 07:48 AM
Cam has roughly 2400 yards passing at the season midpoint as a rookie. There really is no comparison to VY because Young isn't anywhere near Cam's level as a passer.

And Cam is averaging about 40 yards a game on the ground, hardly run first numbers.
If anything, it's Luck at this point who can't be predicted to be one of the top QBs in the NFL yet.

EDIT:

New spin; average arm = throws a catchable ball.lol

phlysac
11-02-2011, 07:49 AM
McShay, Greenburg, and Herman Edwards, are discussing Luck's arm-strength on Mike and Mike this morning. The hyper-over-analytics shall begin.

bucfan12
11-02-2011, 08:14 AM
Cam has roughly 2400 yards passing at the season midpoint as a rookie. There really is no comparison to VY because Young isn't anywhere near Cam's level as a passer.

And Cam is averaging about 40 yards a game on the ground, hardly run first numbers.
If anything, it's Luck at this point who can't be predicted to be one of the top QBs in the NFL yet.

EDIT:

New spin; average arm = throws a catchable ball.lol

Like I said, Cam is way above Vince Young's level as a passer. I said before the season that Cam will find success his rookie year because defenses haven't seen someone like him before, being able to run around make plays with his feet. He's had tremendous success as both a passer and running from the QB position.

He's got to make quicker decsions though in the redzone. That's where he seems to struggle.

bucfan12
11-02-2011, 08:17 AM
And of course people are goign to overanalyze Luck. He came back another year when he would have easily been the 1st overall pick in 2011.

That said, I don't see much of a reason to overanalyze his mechanics. He steps into every throw, is accurate, throws a catchable ball, and has very good arm strength. He just has all the intangibles to be a top flight QB in the NFL.

jrdrylie
11-02-2011, 08:24 AM
I don't why this is surprising at all. He very rarely makes big time NFL throws and the offense demands less from him from an arm strength perspective than a lot of spread offenses. I do give Luck credit for improving on his velocity and being little more willing to make downfield throws this season. Still, you can watch several whole games without seeing him make a challenging NFL throw.

No it doesn't. Blaine Gabbert ran the spread, but hardly ever threw the ball more than 10 yards. Same with Bradford, Kellen Moore, Pat White, Colt Brennan, Graham Harrel... Spread offenses actually mask weakness in arm strength.

jth1331
11-02-2011, 09:00 AM
Sometimes I wonder what everybody would do if Luck turned into a total disaster in the NFL.

SolidGold
11-02-2011, 09:58 AM
I'm not worried to much about Luck. He has plenty of arm strength. Simms is just trying to go against the grain and be different. Luck can improve his arm strength once he is in the pros as well.

FUNBUNCHER
11-02-2011, 10:09 AM
I'm not worried to much about Luck. He has plenty of arm strength. Simms is just trying to go against the grain and be different. Luck can improve his arm strength once he is in the pros as well.

How many QBs really improve their arm strength in the pros?? Brady gained about 20# of muscle in NE and improved his overall core strength which benefitted him throwing the football. People say Peyton did but his arm strength is still just better than average, not elite. Did Aaron Rodgers?? I don't know how hard he threw the football early on because he was sitting behind Brett Favre.

For the most part, I think generally QBs are what they are when it comes to arm strength once they get to the NFL.

IMO Luck's arm is about the same as Matt Ryan. Maybe Eli. Which means his arm is strong enough to win a SB.

I think Simms is basing his opinion on the fact that Luck's primary WRs are three TEs and he's rarely required to drive the ball 30 yards downfield.

Big Bird
11-02-2011, 10:50 AM
I've been waiting for the backlash to build up. Honestly, Lucks hype train is huge right now, some of it warranted & some of it because he is the #1 player and it just get echoed. I'm waiting for the super nitpicking to happen after the season, and then when people start to put Barkley over him and such.
I'll start now.

His beard is way too scruffy.

That's all I got right now...

SolidGold
11-02-2011, 10:54 AM
I would say Aaron Rodgers did improve his arm strength (and he modified his throwing motion) while he was in the pros. The dedicated players with the work ethic and drive always want to improve upon their ability.

There is nothing wrong with his arm strength. This type of stuff happens every year. "Experts" over analyze prospect's to find "flaws" to discuss ad naseum up until the draft.

Luck's total package is what has most people excited. People seem to get caught up on one facet of a player's skill set. Luck's polish, footwork, athletic ability, intelligence, intangibles are not even taken into account with Simm's analysis. Would someone rather have a QB like Russell who had an amazing pro day and huge arm or Boller who could throw the ball on his knees through the uprights from the 50 yard line?

DraftSavant
11-02-2011, 11:13 AM
Trapped. (10)

Babylon
11-02-2011, 11:15 AM
How many QBs really improve their arm strength in the pros?? Brady gained about 20# of muscle in NE and improved his overall core strength which benefitted him throwing the football. People say Peyton did but his arm strength is still just better than average, not elite. Did Aaron Rodgers?? I don't know how hard he threw the football early on because he was sitting behind Brett Favre.

For the most part, I think generally QBs are what they are when it comes to arm strength once they get to the NFL.

IMO Luck's arm is about the same as Matt Ryan. Maybe Eli. Which means his arm is strong enough to win a SB.

I think Simms is basing his opinion on the fact that Luck's primary WRs are three TEs and he's rarely required to drive the ball 30 yards downfield.

I'd say his arm is a little bit better than Matt Ryan's and certainly good enough that analysts should just leave it at that. He's all world at throwing the short to intermediate routes and may need work on deep routes. To be fair to him his WRs arent elite and he rarely has wide open guys down field.

bucfan12
11-02-2011, 11:20 AM
I'd say his arm is a little bit better than Matt Ryan's and certainly good enough that analysts should just leave it at that. He's all world at throwing the short to intermediate routes and may need work on deep routes. To be fair to him his WRs arent elite and he rarely has wide open guys down field.

Thing is, some of these guys arm strength doesn't matter in a dome, well I mean it matters, but it doesn't have to be elite.

Look at Mark Sanchez for example. He's got average arm strength, but he struggles in New York when it starts hitting December.

DraftSavant
11-02-2011, 11:20 AM
How many QBs really improve their arm strength in the pros?? Brady gained about 20# of muscle in NE and improved his overall core strength which benefitted him throwing the football. People say Peyton did but his arm strength is still just better than average, not elite. Did Aaron Rodgers?? I don't know how hard he threw the football early on because he was sitting behind Brett Favre.

For the most part, I think generally QBs are what they are when it comes to arm strength once they get to the NFL.

IMO Luck's arm is about the same as Matt Ryan. Maybe Eli. Which means his arm is strong enough to win a SB.

I think Simms is basing his opinion on the fact that Luck's primary WRs are three TEs and he's rarely required to drive the ball 30 yards downfield.

I remember Rodgers trying to throw a deep out in a preseason game early in his career and the pass skipped off the turf at the numbers. He has vastly improved his arm strength.

Brees too.

Remember, Simms had a big time arm and has said multiple times that arm talent is the most important thing to him. Understandable why, as he had to deal with those Meadowland winds. IIRC, Mallett was his favorite QB in last year's class and Simms said he should be a top 10 pick (I don't necessarily disagree with that either, as personal/character issues dropped him more than anything).

billybeejr
11-02-2011, 11:30 AM
Like I said, Cam is way above Vince Young's level as a passer. I said before the season that Cam will find success his rookie year because defenses haven't seen someone like him before, being able to run around make plays with his feet. He's had tremendous success as both a passer and running from the QB position.

He's got to make quicker decsions though in the redzone. That's where he seems to struggle.

You have obviously never watched Cam play if you think he only makes plays because of his feet.

Have you ever heard of:

John Elway, Steve Young, Steve Mcnair, Donovan Mcabb, Daunte Culpepper, Michael Vick, Ben Roethlisberger, or Aaron Rodgers?

CashmoneyDrew
11-02-2011, 12:31 PM
Thing is, some of these guys arm strength doesn't matter in a dome, well I mean it matters, but it doesn't have to be elite.

Look at Mark Sanchez for example. He's got average arm strength, but he struggles in New York when it starts hitting December.

Well, Luck will be playing in a dome in Indy, sooo....

A Perfect Score
11-02-2011, 12:35 PM
This thread delivers. I'm still laughing at someone saying Rivers has a cannon, and that was 3 pages ago. Also, Bradford with a noodle arm? Get the **** out of here.

Bradford's arm is every bit as strong as Luck's, and that's after major shoulder surgery.

Complex
11-02-2011, 12:38 PM
I think we're all jumping the gun here on Cam Newton a little too soon. He has all the physical tools and is using his athleticism to create plays right now, but let's see how he does in year 2 when teams prevent him from moving out of the pocket and make plays with his legs.

I don't want to compare him to Vince Young as a passer but I won't do that. But Young did make plays with his legs, then in year 2, struggled when defenses defended that.

That being said, I think Cam Newton will not fold like Vince Young did though. He's shown he's got a cannon and much better passer than Young as well. But lets not annoint him a superstar just yet. Aaron Rodgers will still be around in the next 4-5 years, so Luck and Newton being 1-2 isn't going to happen just yet.

He doesn't run as much as Vince Young. He is more of a pocket than a scrambling QB. Funny that your saying people are jumping the gun on Cam when all you bucs fans were proclaiming Josh Freeman as the chosen one.


Thing is, some of these guys arm strength doesn't matter in a dome, well I mean it matters, but it doesn't have to be elite.

Look at Mark Sanchez for example. He's got average arm strength, but he struggles in New York when it starts hitting December.

He played well or great in the playoffs at Cinci,NE and Pitt.



Bradford arm is far from noodle, its better than Matt Ryans. Its the great Matthews Stafford but its good enough.

descendency
11-02-2011, 01:43 PM
“I think the hype is a little too much,” Simms told Adam Schein and Rich Gannon of SiriusXM NFL Radio on Tuesday. “I feel bad for him in that respect. I mean, what’s he going to do to match what they say he can do?

“There’s a lot to him. I think his best quality, by far, is he’s big and strong and he’s going to be able to move and run in the NFL. There’s no question. I mean, this guy is strong. The throwing? He manages a game. I see all that.

“But the one thing I don’t see, I just don’t see big time NFL throws. I don’t care what anybody says. I’ve watched a lot of him. He never takes it and rips it in there. And you can say what you want but, man, you’ve got to be able to crease that ball every once in a while. We see it every week in these games. Hey, he can develop it but even in the USC game, you know, he’s very careful with it, guides it a lot, Rich. That’s what I see. There’s not a lot of rotation on the ball and there’s not a tremendous amount of power. Not that you need to have that power arm. I’m not saying you’ve got to have that exclusively but, man, it sure helps when you can do that because there’s four or five plays a game it is about arm strength. And sometimes quarterbacks who don’t have it, they pass those plays up. Why? Well, they go, ‘I don’t know if I can make that throw,’ so they throw it short. That’s why I’m a little more reserved in my judgment than everybody else.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/02/phil-simms-not-sold-on-andrew-luck/

If I am understanding what he is saying, it sounds like the Kyle Orton vs Aaron Rodgers debate.

draftguru151
11-02-2011, 03:52 PM
What he said makes a lot of sense. But I'm sure will overreact and act like Simms is saying Luck will bust.

armageddon
11-02-2011, 04:39 PM
hes right between bradford (noodle hooked to his shoulder) and stafford (bazooka hooked to his shoulder)

i dont see the problem.

brady has a strong arm, not even close to where he was when he was drafted though, perfect example of a QB growing into his arm



Bradford's arm is very strong. Much stronger than his OU days. His problem is everything he throws is a laser and doesn't have much touch. That's his only knock so far by me. He's big, mobile, athletic, smart, very strong arm, but doesn't have much touch on certain passes.

BigBanger
11-02-2011, 04:46 PM
Bradford's arm is very strong. Much stronger than his OU days. His problem is everything he throws is a laser and doesn't have much touch. That's his only knock so far by me. He's big, mobile, athletic, smart, very strong arm, but doesn't have much touch on certain passes.

I thought his problem was that he doesn't throw any passes more than 15 yards down field.

I'd take Philip Rivers' arm all day. He's executed the most vertical passing game in the NFL for the last 4 years and his ball placement on throws 40 and 50 yards downfield has been more impressive than any other QB in the NFL. I wouldn't say Rivers has a cannon (I'd reserve that type of praise for Rodgers, Stafford types), but his arm strength pretty good.

TACKLE
11-02-2011, 04:55 PM
+rep Phil Simms

Raiderz4Life
11-02-2011, 04:59 PM
How many QBs really improve their arm strength in the pros?? Brady gained about 20# of muscle in NE and improved his overall core strength which benefitted him throwing the football. People say Peyton did but his arm strength is still just better than average, not elite. Did Aaron Rodgers?? I don't know how hard he threw the football early on because he was sitting behind Brett Favre.

For the most part, I think generally QBs are what they are when it comes to arm strength once they get to the NFL.

IMO Luck's arm is about the same as Matt Ryan. Maybe Eli. Which means his arm is strong enough to win a SB.

I think Simms is basing his opinion on the fact that Luck's primary WRs are three TEs and he's rarely required to drive the ball 30 yards downfield.

One of the things ppl picked on about Rodgers was his throwing mechanics. At Cal he held the ball way up at about his earhole, he holds it slightly lower now and that added a little more oomph to his passes.

CashmoneyDrew
11-02-2011, 05:02 PM
+rep Phil Simms

He's still in 'Breed level' negatives for producing Chris and Matt.

phlysac
11-02-2011, 06:10 PM
One of the things ppl picked on about Rodgers was his throwing mechanics. At Cal he held the ball way up at about his earhole, he holds it slightly lower now and that added a little more oomph to his passes.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRKaw-XhlG5IuNRMyrXQcjPoqWYW3llbPJH8w5jFva_f_-LkBNNcQga0OTZfQ
And Jeff Tedford.

JDR2882
11-02-2011, 07:39 PM
I think Luck's arm is plenty strong enough. I have been able to watch a few of Standford's games and he has a good arm. I honestly just think it is a situation of Simms just stirring up some debate. He probably gets tired of hearing about Luck being the greatest QB ever.

TACKLE
11-02-2011, 10:39 PM
Considering that the draft is as popular as it's ever been and Andrew Luck is one of the most hyped prospects in the draft in a long time, it still amazes me how incredibly shallow the evaluation of Luck has been. People have it in their heads that he is this flawless prospect and make no effort to put the attention to detail they put in in evaluating all the other prospects in the draft.

An attempt to make a name for himself speaking out against the unanimous top prospect? It was only a matter of time before someone did it I guess. It's just funny Phil Simms did it.

Comments like this baffle me. Luck has been put on such a pedestal that even the slightest criticism, however valid they may be, are being viewed as attention-grubbing rhetoric. This way of thinking seems ridiculous to me. It surprises me how willing people are to accept that Luck is indeed the perfect prospect.

SolidGold
11-02-2011, 11:06 PM
Like I have said before Luck is the total package in terms of what talent evaluators look for. No prospect is guaranteed for success at the next level. The total package that Luck offers - athletic ability, pocket awareness, intelligence, leadership, accuracy - he all grades very high on. I would agree that Luck does not have a cannon for an arm but he does have above avg arm strength, that is enough at the next level. As a prospect that is his main weakness. For those who don't think Luck would be worthy of his projected slotting as the number 1 overall pick, I would ask what other deficiencies you see in his game. The draft is all about projections, it's not an exact science. Luck's overall body of work and what he offers as a QB is projected to be successful at the next level and teams have made a lot worse number 1 overall picks than Andrew Luck would be.

I suppose Luck is a victim of his own success. It is not his fault he has really catapulted into the conversation of the best QB prospect to come out since Manning in 1998 due to his stellar play and all the tools he offers. As others have said, the draft is more popular than ever, tons of people who know and do not know what their talking about get to spout their opinions.

San Diego Chicken
11-03-2011, 12:26 AM
You can't look at a football QB's arm strength like you would a baseball pitcher, the mechanics of throwing are way different. That's why QB's can "improve" their arm strength when they reach the NFL, it's really a function of improving core strength and refined throwing mechanics. Luck is a big, strong guy with a solid trunk and base. He doesn't get as much as he might want on every single throw because his mechanics are a bit quirky, and often he tries to adjust the speed on his passes.

I'm far from an expert on QB mechanics but it seems he tries to do a little too much arm throwing and not as much body throwing with his base. Anyone help me out here who has played or coached QB? Correctable flaw if so. I feel nowadays everyone labels every QB who doesn't rocket the ball on every single pass to have merely average arm strength. Too many bad habits come with the guys who rely on their arm in college. Give me a guy like Luck who understands that the point is to complete the pass and not how beautiful the pass looks while traveling in the air.

TACKLE
11-03-2011, 06:26 AM
please quote, from anywhere on this site, 5 people who have called luck a 'perfect prospect' this season. when you can't, please stop with the red herrings/complete mischaracterizations.

So just go find an arbitrary number of posts on this specific site with the specific wording and specific time frame of your liking? Sweet. I didn't say 'everyone' or 'everyone on this site' or 'lots of people on this site'. I said 'people' and believe it or not, I have read opinions by people around the internet and people I have spoken with that suggest Andrew Luck is pretty much the "perfect" quarterback prospect.

...
and, unsurprisingly, the discussion of how luck really isn't a top prospect has started. shortly, someone will proclaim that he isn't a top 10 pick. shortly after that, he 'won't be worth a first round pick'. nfldc is so predictable sometimes.

I'm semi-excited to fight off the new trendy naysayers. I'm trying to think of what people will try to harp on over the next coming season. I'm thinking arm strength because it already has come up some.

All in all, Luck is the complete package. No part of his game is lacking. There are no strong flaws with him.

All the positive talk about Luck is going to lead some people to make up faults just for the sake of being different.

"I don't think Luck is an elite prospect! I'm so different! Hey everyone, look at me!"

If you want to talk about Luck's faults, great, but find some actual faults. For example, his physical running style could lead to injury in the NFL.

Kind of agree with you for once.

and once again...

An attempt to make a name for himself speaking out against the unanimous top prospect? It was only a matter of time before someone did it I guess. It's just funny Phil Simms did it.

Comments like these suggest to me that any criticisms against Luck are being made by people who are simply contrarians or nitpickers with their own M.O. It infers that there are no actual legitimate gripes about his game that could actually limit him at the next level.

For the record, Luck has improved a lot this year and is my top rated QB in this draft along one of two elite talents on my board at the moment (along with Richardson). But I stand by my statement...I find it ridiculous that some believe that any criticisms of Andrew Luck as an NFL prospect are rooted in a desire to get attention through being different instead of a thorough, honest evaluation based off film. I know it would be wrong to say that all critiques are based off the later. But to assume it's all the former is the closed-minded approach that is leading to what I believe to be a generally shallow evaluation of Luck.

WCH
11-03-2011, 07:32 AM
And I question ANY NFL GM who thinks Luck is the same level prospect as Elway.
Troy Aikman was a beast prospect when he left UCLA. So was Jeff George. Drew Bledsoe. David Carr. Carson Palmer. Eli Manning.

Every one of these guys as pro prospects was considered to have HOF upside.
IMO Andrew Luck would not be the first QB taken if all these guys came out in the same year. He wouldn't be last probably, but I don't believe he would have been drafted before Aikman/Palmer/Bledsoe.

I don't think he would go before Aikman or Peyton Manning. I think he would absolutely go ahead of everybody else. It's my personal opinion that David Carr simply never belonged in this conversation, and Bledsoe had accuracy issues and lacked mobility even by the standards of the early 1990s. Palmer didn't play like an elite prospect until his senior season (compare that to a guy like Peyton Manning, who looked like the top NFL prospect from his sophomore season on).

Jeff George is interesting. Great prospect who played pretty good football during his best years in the NFL, but he never was voted to a Pro Bowl (IIRC), and never managed to earn respect from his peers, coaches, fans, etc. But even as much as I think people forget how good he was as a prospect, I wouldn't put him up there with prospects like Aikman, Manning, or Elway.

SolidGold
11-03-2011, 08:18 AM
I think this conversation could deviate into one about journalistic integrity and accountability. Plenty of talking heads/bloggers and so called "experts" seem to be able to spew whatever rhetoric/opinions without ever facing repercussions. People who do not really know what they are talking about either jumping on a bandwagon or try to nitpick at a prospect.

McShay never received any backlash or punishment for his severly flawed analysis of Jevan Snead or Andre Woodson - two players he projected as first round picks. Peter King jumping on the Andrew Luck bandwagon in his column like he knows what he is talking about. Warren Sapp stating the Steelers are an old team and sticking a fork in them after 1 game with the Ravens. The list goes on.

I don't necessarily agree with Simms that Luck does not have the arm to make NFL throws. I can respect his opinion since he played the position in the NFL at a high level. As someone else in the thread stated Simms stated Mallet was a top 10 talent, yet he fell to the third round. Perhaps Simms puts more stock into arm strength than the other attributes but this league is littered with QBs that had cannons for arms but not much else.

It is nature of the beast I suppose. Everyone has access to the internet, everyone has an opinion and people can have their own agenda is this age of mass media.

I think those of us who believe Luck is a surefire number 1 overall prospect are able to look at his total skillset. Mechanics, pocket awareness, mobility, accuracy, intelligence, leadership all wrapped up into one prospect give draftniks a reason to be justifiably excited about Luck's potential at the next level. Anytime I have watched Luck I have been impressed, he makes it look easy.

Every draft cycle the same types of criticisms of players arise to give people something to talk about.

Iamcanadian
11-03-2011, 10:41 AM
wait... what? explain the difference.

A prospect is an assessment of the skills and intangibles of a college player, however there is a huge gap in how a player adjusts once he gets to pro football. Some prospects have a very smooth transition, some take time to adjust and some never are able to make the transition. There is never any certainty how a prospect will handle the jump to pro football. That is why the draft has always been a crap shoot.
When a player is still in college, we project how he will be as a pro, what his ceiling is and what his floor may be, but that doesn't make it true, many exceed their rankings and many never live up to their hype.
Luck, as a prospect is now talked about in NFL circles as the best prospect since Elway, does that guarantee him success, no, it is just a projection of his potential.
People can cut Luck down all they want as they have done for every successful college QB the year they were drafted. They nit picked Cam Newton to death and every other QB who has ever entered the draft.
Luck carries a very high grade from NFL people if he is being compared to Elway and nothing currently is available to challenge that. He will be the 1st player taken in the draft, now we just have to wait to see if he can reach his ceiling.

papageorgio
11-03-2011, 10:45 AM
Luck will be a bust in the sense that he will never be the best QB in the league. He reminds me to much of certain dink and dunk passers. His arm will limit his deep passes and that is why I found Newton to be a better prospect. He plays like Matt Ryan and to me Ryan is not a top 10 QB.

Luck will be a good not elite QB in my opinion.

FUNBUNCHER
11-03-2011, 11:26 AM
I don't think he would go before Aikman or Peyton Manning. I think he would absolutely go ahead of everybody else. It's my personal opinion that David Carr simply never belonged in this conversation, and Bledsoe had accuracy issues and lacked mobility even by the standards of the early 1990s. Palmer didn't play like an elite prospect until his senior season (compare that to a guy like Peyton Manning, who looked like the top NFL prospect from his sophomore season on).

Jeff George is interesting. Great prospect who played pretty good football during his best years in the NFL, but he never was voted to a Pro Bowl (IIRC), and never managed to earn respect from his peers, coaches, fans, etc. But even as much as I think people forget how good he was as a prospect, I wouldn't put him up there with prospects like Aikman, Manning, or Elway.

Peyton Manning as a sophomore at Tennessee wasn't the best QB in the country, probably not the SEC.(Check that, I just looked at the two previous drafts before 1998. Yuck. Peyton actually may have been the top pro prospect in college other than Jake Plummer from '95-'98.)

Carr is being savaged in hindsight, but when he left Fresno State other than level of competition he looked like like a perennial pro bowler.
Yes Carson Palmer didn't put it together until he was coached by Norm Chow but his senior year was phenomenal. He finally dominated the way everyone thought he would do when he was one of the top prep recruits in the country.

I don't think many people would look at Palmer's college game tape and Luck's film and be less impressed with Palmer who routinely threw deep strikes at USC, passes Luck rarely attempts.

The reason I would have Luck below some of these former 1/1 picks is primarily because Luck's weaknesses were overwhelming strengths for other prospects.

FUNBUNCHER
11-03-2011, 12:06 PM
Just saying, hypothetically if there was a draft were six QBs are considered worthy of the top pick in the draft, arm strength becomes a serious point of separation.

It's an argument against Luck being the best pro QB prospect of the last 30 years because there's one physical tool Luck lacks that Aikman/Bledsoe/Palmer/Carr/George all had.

All these other prospects weren't drafted 1/1 exclusively because of their arms, but it was their arm strength that made all of them 'special' prospects.

What is the one trait about Andrew Luck that makes him a special prospect?? What is it about Luck that would make an NFL scout believe he had more pro upside than the previously mentioned QBs coming out of college??

I really like Luck and believe like many he would have been the consensus number 1 pick last year if he chose to declare. I also believe there's very little about his overall game where there's a legitimate negative criticism, or where an outside observer would watch his play and think, 'that's going to be a major problem for Luck in the pros.'

But this talk about his being on a level several steps about any other prospect who's ever been scouted at QB since the early 1980s, IMO that's overheated fanboy crushing on Luck.

bored of education
11-03-2011, 12:20 PM
mental stuff (reads, etc) is elite, i think he has far better accuracy than most of those guys did coming out, and i think he has far better footwork. i don't think we want to go down the 'you can coach that' road with some of the players listed, either.


this 1000x's. njx is teh samrtz

DraftSavant
11-03-2011, 02:45 PM
****...just read it.

http://blogs.thescore.com/nfl/2011/11/03/the-tape-never-lies-a-closer-look-at-andrew-luck/

niel89
11-03-2011, 04:07 PM
****...just read it.

http://blogs.thescore.com/nfl/2011/11/03/the-tape-never-lies-a-closer-look-at-andrew-luck/

Good article that gives specific plays and observations. One point that I think is undersold about is that Luck still has a room to develop. Just because he is very polished at this point doesn't mean he is a completely finished product.

draftguru151
11-03-2011, 04:51 PM
I'm far from an expert on QB mechanics but it seems he tries to do a little too much arm throwing and not as much body throwing with his base.

This is what I've seen as well (and it's something noted in blog draftsavant posted). The best throw I've seen him make this year was him rolling to his right and throwing it to the sideline where he had to use his body, threw an absolute dart on the money. Luck CAN throw strikes, it's just he doesn't do it very often (it's rare enough that that blog actually references throws that he DOES do it on). Luck does a ton of things amazingly and at an elite level, but he doesn't throw strikes into tight spaces, and he still has issues on long passes. Tackle's main issue (I think) is people refusing to acknowledge any faults in Luck.

WCH
11-03-2011, 04:53 PM
Peyton Manning as a sophomore at Tennessee wasn't the best QB in the country, probably not the SEC.(Check that, I just looked at the two previous drafts before 1998. Yuck. Peyton actually may have been the top pro prospect in college other than Jake Plummer from '95-'98.)

Those were very dark days. I still have vivid memories of getting the first Ourlads newsletter at the start of the 1995 season, where they list the top prospects by position. They point blank said that this is the worst QB class in memory, and we may not see one drafted in the first day. Danny Kanell and Bobby Hoying were the top prospects going into the season. The Rams eventually reached on Tony Banks in the second round even though he threw something like 9 TDs and 15 INTs as a senior; because hell, at least he had physical tools that you could work with. The entire 1996 QB draft: Tony Banks, Bobby Hoying, Jeff Lewis, Danny Kanell, Jon Stark, and Kyle Wachholtz (perhaps best known as the last truly sucky USC QB).

As day-two wound down during the 1996 NFL Draft, Boomer said something to the effect of "Mel, these quarterbacks kinda suck, eh?" And Mel said words to the effect of "Yes, they do. But there's this kid at Tennessee; he's only a sophomore, but I think he would have been a first round pick this year, and if he comes out next year I think that he can be the first overall pick. He's the son of Archie Manning...you remember the former Saint's QB; and his name's Peyton Manning." (video montage of Peyton's sophomore highlights ensued).

Then the next year....Peyton stayed in school. Even still, Plummer was actually a legit NFL prospect, but the 49ers went ******** and drafted Jim Druckenmiller in round one, while Plummer fell to the second round. Does anybody even remember seeing Jim Druckenmiller actually play football? I remember Bobby Hoying, but I sure don't remember Druckenmiller.

Carr is being savaged in hindsight, but when he left Fresno State other than level of competition he looked like like a perennial pro bowler.
Yes Carson Palmer didn't put it together until he was coached by Norm Chow but his senior year was phenomenal. He finally dominated the way everyone thought he would do when he was one of the top prep recruits in the country.

I don't think many people would look at Palmer's college game tape and Luck's film and be less impressed with Palmer who routinely threw deep strikes at USC, passes Luck rarely attempts.

The reason I would have Luck below some of these former 1/1 picks is primarily because Luck's weaknesses were overwhelming strengths for other prospects.

My perception of Carr was that he couldn't make NFL reads. Regarding Palmer, I'm just always afraid of quarterbacks who only have one great year. I like to see a larger body of work. I saw Palmer's potential, but I didn't trust that his performance as a senior wasn't a fluke. That was also my primary concern with Cam Newton this past season, even though I loved what I saw of him both in games and at the combine. Obviously, my concerns were not legitimate with either Palmer or Newton.

CC.SD
11-03-2011, 05:14 PM
lol rivers cannon

soybean
11-03-2011, 05:40 PM
****...just read it.

http://blogs.thescore.com/nfl/2011/11/03/the-tape-never-lies-a-closer-look-at-andrew-luck/

The problem i have with that article is that he indirectly implies he has no faults and that everything he does is perfect and anything he doesnt do is minor and will definitely be corrected. I can't accept that.

Raiderz4Life
11-03-2011, 05:50 PM
The problem i have with that article is that he indirectly implies he has no faults and that everything he does is perfect and anything he doesnt do is minor and will definitely be corrected. I can't accept that.

Because Luck HAS to have incorrectable flaws right? He just has to, it is totally unacceptable to point out his flaws then follow it up with "but they can be worked on." Wtf was that person thinking.

soybean
11-03-2011, 06:07 PM
Because Luck HAS to have incorrectable flaws right? He just has to, it is totally unacceptable to point out his flaws then follow it up with "but they can be worked on." Wtf was that person thinking.

he doesn't delve into any of it though, just like passing it off like it's nothing.

SchizophrenicBatman
11-05-2011, 04:02 PM
This is what I've seen as well (and it's something noted in blog draftsavant posted). The best throw I've seen him make this year was him rolling to his right and throwing it to the sideline where he had to use his body, threw an absolute dart on the money. Luck CAN throw strikes, it's just he doesn't do it very often (it's rare enough that that blog actually references throws that he DOES do it on). Luck does a ton of things amazingly and at an elite level, but he doesn't throw strikes into tight spaces, and he still has issues on long passes. Tackle's main issue (I think) is people refusing to acknowledge any faults in Luck.

this is something that I've been saying since last season. I really have no idea how good his arm is because he rarely uses it. When he does, it looks pretty damn good. But I don't think he's going to stop throwing touch passes unless he has to so you have to evaluate what you see. The pass you're talking about was against Virginia Tech in the Orange Bowl last season and if Jay Cutler or Matt Stafford threw it people would still be j/oing about it.

I think Tackle has been as one dimensional in his Luck hate as some homers have been in praising him. I'm also not sure how this debate matters as there really isn't much competition for his spot. Whether he's the best prospect of the last 20 years, 200 years or 20 days doesnt matter as long as he goes #1

TACKLE
11-05-2011, 04:12 PM
I think Tackle has been as one dimensional in his Luck hate as some homers have been in praising him. I'm also not sure how this debate matters as there really isn't much competition for his spot. Whether he's the best prospect of the last 20 years, 200 years or 20 days doesnt matter as long as he goes #1

lol Luck is my #1 rated QB and my #1 rated player in this draft. I had a lot of reservations surrounding Luck (relative to his hype) heading into the season but have stated numerous times how I've been impressed by his improvement in areas I had concerns about.

Also, I don't understand what you're trying to say in the bolded part.

SchizophrenicBatman
11-05-2011, 04:19 PM
I mean, Luck has been in this spot for so long that there really isn't much else to say. But you were hating on his arm as soon as people started to talk him up. Over a year has passed and...you're still hating on it. Which, fair enough, you were ahead of the game on. You called that out before his really ugly deep ball became evident in the Oregon game (at least, to me). It's just...what else do you want people to say at this point?

And I was saying that I don't see how relevant it is if Luck is a better prospect than Elway, Peyton, Cam or whoever. He's going #1 this year as long as he's still ahead of Barkley, Jones and whoever else at the end of the season

TACKLE
11-05-2011, 05:10 PM
I mean, Luck has been in this spot for so long that there really isn't much else to say. But you were hating on his arm as soon as people started to talk him up. Over a year has passed and...you're still hating on it. Which, fair enough, you were ahead of the game on. You called that out before his really ugly deep ball became evident in the Oregon game (at least, to me). It's just...what else do you want people to say at this point?

And I was saying that I don't see how relevant it is if Luck is a better prospect than Elway, Peyton, Cam or whoever. He's going #1 this year as long as he's still ahead of Barkley, Jones and whoever else at the end of the season

I didn't like how he threw the ball and it frustrated me how conservative he was with the ball last year. I didn't know if it was a physical, mental or system thing. But like I said, his arm has improved noticeably this year and he is being more aggressive throwing the ball downfield. Just because I'm still breaking him down, critiquing him like I do with all prospects and analyzing his game to the best of my ability, doesn't mean I'm 'hating'....

And just because he's going #1, doesn't mean you stop evaluating what degree success you think he'll have. Some think he'll be an Eli caliber player, some think he's the next Peyton. Both became successful franchise QB's, but there is a huge difference there. That difference is all in the details.....

Which goes back to my initial grievance in this thread, in that despite being one of the most well-known prospects in a long time, it feels to me that some people have accepted that Luck is the top prospect in this draft and have stop assessing him closely because of that.

Wrathman
11-06-2011, 04:24 AM
I didn't like how he threw the ball and it frustrated me how conservative he was with the ball last year. I didn't know if it was a physical, mental or system thing. But like I said, his arm has improved noticeably this year and he is being more aggressive throwing the ball downfield. Just because I'm still breaking him down, critiquing him like I do with all prospects and analyzing his game to the best of my ability, doesn't mean I'm 'hating'....

And just because he's going #1, doesn't mean you stop evaluating what degree success you think he'll have. Some think he'll be an Eli caliber player, some think he's the next Peyton. Both became successful franchise QB's, but there is a huge difference there. That difference is all in the details.....

Which goes back to my initial grievance in this thread, in that despite being one of the most well-known prospects in a long time, it feels to me that some people have accepted that Luck is the top prospect in this draft and have stop assessing him closely because of that.

I think people have stopped assessing whether he is the No. 1 QB and No. 1 overall pick in the draft. Those questions, barring injury or a meltdown the likes that we have never seen before, have been answered. I think the other nitpicking on his game will really pick up in the offseason which is the traditional time to do so.