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View Full Version : This year's Pro Football Hall of Fame is going to be interesting.


Ness
11-15-2011, 03:14 PM
I'm listening to Peter King's podcast right now and he's talking with another reporter in which they both vote for the Pro Football Hall of Fame. And they're both talking about how this upcoming year will be interesting because there isn't a slam dunk candidate like a Jerry Rice or a Deion Sanders. This opens to the door for a lot of other guys. There is a feeling that Dermontti Dawson finally gets in. They also talked about how this opens the door for some of the receivers that have been shafted the last few years that may deserve to be in. Carter, Reed, and Brown for example. I think Jerome Bettis gets in though and maybe Curtis Martin. I'm holding out hope for Charles Haley, although I just heard that there is usually a mixed bag for him amongst the voters.

Razor
11-15-2011, 03:37 PM
I definitely think that Charles Haley deserves to get in. He might be a complete basket case, but he was also one helluva football player. Curtis Martin is kinda meh, so is Chris Carter to me. The rest of the guys that you mentioned seems OK.

CC.SD
11-15-2011, 03:39 PM
Is Junior eligible yet? **** you Patsies, this should have happened years ago.

gsorace
11-15-2011, 04:20 PM
Curtis Martin > Jerome Bettis

Raiderz4Life
11-15-2011, 04:45 PM
Curtis Martin > Jerome Bettis

No uh.

Bettis > Martin.

Dallas357
11-15-2011, 04:46 PM
he won't get in due to only playing 90 games.

But Tony Boseli is the 2nd best OT to ever play the game.

Splat
11-15-2011, 04:48 PM
Willie Roaf and Will Shields.

keylime_5
11-15-2011, 04:56 PM
I think Carter is due. If not for Jerry Rice he would've owned all the receiving records. And they can't use the off-field issues excuse ever again after letting Michael Irvin in. I mean OJ freakin' Simpson is in the HOF but Jack Tatum isn't b/c he paralyzed a guy on a legal hit? Carter got in trouble early in his career but Michael Irvin gets to do blow off of Deion's head and he gets in?

Brodeur
11-15-2011, 04:59 PM
I definitely think that Charles Haley deserves to get in. He might be a complete basket case, but he was also one helluva football player. Curtis Martin is kinda meh, so is Chris Carter to me. The rest of the guys that you mentioned seems OK.

Don't group Carter in with Curtis Martin.

Raiderz4Life
11-15-2011, 05:09 PM
I think Carter is due. If not for Jerry Rice he would've owned all the receiving records. And they can't use the off-field issues excuse ever again after letting Michael Irvin in. I mean OJ freakin' Simpson is in the HOF but Jack Tatum isn't b/c he paralyzed a guy on a legal hit? Carter got in trouble early in his career but Michael Irvin gets to do blow off of Deion's head and he gets in?

Its a travesty that Jack T isn't in.

abaddon41_80
11-15-2011, 05:10 PM
For some reason I keep on thinking of Todd Haley whenever I hear Charles Haley and I am like wtf?

keylime_5
11-15-2011, 06:42 PM
Curtis Martin seems like he had too many meh seasons. Seems like a compiler to me, though he was great some years. Cris Carter was always like the best in the league production wise aside from Jerry. I thought he would be a first ballot guy if he wasn't such an unlikable moron.

Matthew Jones
11-15-2011, 07:15 PM
What the hell is going on in this topic? Curtis Martin should be a Hall of Fame lock.

Brodeur
11-15-2011, 07:18 PM
What the hell is going on in this topic? Curtis Martin should be a Hall of Fame lock.

It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Very Good. Curtis was never a top tier running back.

yo123
11-15-2011, 07:19 PM
What the hell is going on in this topic? Curtis Martin should be a Hall of Fame lock.


Why? He was never a superstar. There's an argument for him getting in but a lock? No way. Barry Sanders, Jim Brown, Walter Payton, OJ Simpson....those are the kind of RB's that were locks. Martin had a 4.0 career YPC, not that impressive.

Raiderz4Life
11-15-2011, 07:28 PM
In all honesty...I don't think either Bettis or Martin should get in. Both were very good backs but never the best.

nepg
11-15-2011, 07:38 PM
It's a ******* travesty that Dawson isn't in yet. Might be the best C to play the game... Roaf and Shields also deserve to be in quickly. Those 3 were the very best at their positions in the 90s.

Bettis is a bit overrated and Martin is slightly underrated because he only played on one really good team (**** you, Parcells...seriously). Bettis had 4 very good seasons (one of which was cut short by injury) in 13 years...most of which he was the focal point of the offense. Martin had 5 in 11 and usually was not the focal point of the offense.

descendency
11-15-2011, 08:03 PM
Is Junior eligible yet? **** you Patsies, this should have happened years ago.

He's probably going to come back and play safety for NE given how quickly we are going through them.

They should stop Hall of Fame Induction embarrassment until they let Cris Carter in.

Saints-Tigers
11-15-2011, 08:17 PM
Willie Roaf deserves the HOF way more than Cris Carter, IDK why everyone is making a big stink over Carter. It's really not even close.

nepg
11-15-2011, 08:17 PM
He's probably going to come back and play safety for NE given how quickly we are going through them.

They should stop Hall of Fame Induction embarrassment until they let Cris Carter in.
**** Cris Carter, imo. Tim Brown on the other hand...

Raiderz4Life
11-15-2011, 08:35 PM
Timmy Brown should definitely get in. Carter's just a dumbass but he should be in as well.

Complex
11-15-2011, 08:37 PM
Willie Roaf and Will Shields.

This plus Charles Haley and Dawson.


Oh and Curtis Martin>>>Jerome Bettis

Borat
11-15-2011, 09:39 PM
Haley was a boss. I was sooooo mad when the 9ers just gave him away. But then I heard that they traded him because he got pissed at coach Seifert and went and "pissed" on his car. Guy was crazy and yet awesome at the sane time.

Abaddon
11-16-2011, 02:11 AM
Willie Roaf and Will Shields.

Should be mortal locks.

It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Very Good.

Unfortunately, that's not true.

Haley was a boss. I was sooooo mad when the 9ers just gave him away. But then I heard that they traded him because he got pissed at coach Seifert and went and "pissed" on his car. Guy was crazy and yet awesome at the sane time.

Well played.

asdf1223
11-16-2011, 06:46 AM
Cortez Kennedy isnt a sexy name but I would think this is his best shot to get in. Was very close last year.

San Diego Chicken
11-16-2011, 07:29 AM
Carter needs to get in. I think Moss's brilliance in Minnesota kind of overshadowed him but for a while he was as good as anyone in the NFL. Top 5 in career receptions and TD's and this after kind of a slow start to his career. He also had that flair that matters in HOF arguments.

Dawson also should be in. You could argue he's right there in the same caliber as hall of fame centers like Otto, Stephenson and Webster, he was six times 1st team all pro, hard to get more elite at your position than that.

Bettis is a tossup for me, on one hand he had some elite seasons, he's top 5 in all time yardage, and he had that flair and memorable style and personality. But on the other hand he stuck around a little too long and you don't think of him in the same category as some of the other legendary backs, he was clearly no Payton or Sanders.

Martin I'd say no, typical Parcells back, was a solid pro bowler but not quite the elite guy and didn't really stand out. He does earn points for his durability and consistency however.

I also question Haley, I don't think people would look at him as favorably if he didn't have all the Super Bowl rings. He always seemed to be sidelined with injuries too.

I wonder what the story is with Kevin Greene, I believe he should be a Hall of Famer, one of the most feared pass-rushers ever. I'd like to see him get in before Haley.... seems he's been a semi finalist for a few years running now, I'm going to campaign to get him in because he was truly one of a kind.

San Diego Chicken
11-16-2011, 07:45 AM
Speaking of Parcells you gotta think he'll go in as a coach in this his first year eligible. Cowher is first year eligible too I wonder how much attention he gets from the voters.

jth1331
11-16-2011, 10:23 AM
In all honesty...I don't think either Bettis or Martin should get in. Both were very good backs but never the best.

This. Just because they hung around for 10+ years doesn't mean they should get in.
Terrell Davis had more elite seasons in Denver than Martin did IMO.

Thecollegedropout
11-16-2011, 10:29 AM
It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Very Good. Curtis was never a top tier running back.
In this day and era where defenses are quicker and stronger than in the past, the fact he was consistently very good for such a long time shows how durable he was. Was he an elite RB? No. But is he very high on the total rushing yards list? Yes.

Doesn't hurt that he was as classy and humble of a guy too.

This. Just because they hung around for 10+ years doesn't mean they should get in.
Terrell Davis had more elite seasons in Denver than Martin did IMO.
Davis also played with a legendary quarterback and had a hell of an O-Line and TE blocking for him too.

Thecollegedropout
11-16-2011, 10:30 AM
Bettis is a bit overrated and Martin is slightly underrated because he only played on one really good team (**** you, Parcells...seriously). Bettis had 4 very good seasons (one of which was cut short by injury) in 13 years...most of which he was the focal point of the offense. Martin had 5 in 11 and usually was not the focal point of the offense.
Jets in 04 were a very good team that should have been in the AFC Title game. Too bad Doug Brien can't get a single clutch kick down when needed most though.

brat316
11-16-2011, 11:57 AM
This rb talk got me thinking. For the future HOF, from the current Rbs, will anyone really make it?

It is a air it out league, Rbs now have short lives and great turnover(rookies can step in immediately in most cases). Only guy 2 guys that might have a chance and probably won't be first ballot is LT, and maybe AP if he can last.

I honestly thought LT was going to break E.Smith's record, but then he turned to poo.

There is no standout, OMG did u see that, Rb in this era of passing. Some guys have their moments, but then fall off. Darren McFadden has flashes, then he gets injured, AP is doing but how long will his body hold up, and putting the team on hiz back. CJ was going hard, till this year it might go against him.

Giantsfan1080
11-16-2011, 12:07 PM
Tomlinson is a no brainer first ballot HOF.

brat316
11-16-2011, 12:09 PM
Tomlinson is a no brainer first ballot HOF.

I guess your right from his earlier years. These Jet years have made me forget about the dominant Chargers years, and 1 crappy year with the bolts. Does hold the record for TDs in season.

Decent qb rating as well.

Crazy_Chris
11-16-2011, 01:22 PM
Eh there may be no real slam dunk guys, but I think it's pretty predictable who will get in...

Andre Reed - Reed made it further than Carter/Brown two years in a row so he seems to be the next WR in line for enshrinement.

Willie Roaf- I personally don't see how he doesn't make it in this year. Probably the biggest lock for me

Cortez Kennedy- He's been gaining momentum the past few years, and this is the perfect oppurtunity to push him through.

Dermontti Dawson- He's been waiting a little while, this is the year to push him through. Especially considering all the worthy O-linemen that are becoming eligible over these next few years.

Those 4 I am very confident will make it, but the last spot is kind of interesting. I am pretty sure for the sake of balance it will be a definsive player, either Charles Haley or Chris Doleman(He is my choice).

CC.SD
11-16-2011, 01:33 PM
This rb talk got me thinking. For the future HOF, from the current Rbs, will anyone really make it?

It is a air it out league, Rbs now have short lives and great turnover(rookies can step in immediately in most cases). Only guy 2 guys that might have a chance and probably won't be first ballot is LT, and maybe AP if he can last.

There is no standout, OMG did u see that, Rb in this era of passing.



Die die dieeeee

Tomlinson is a no brainer first ballot HOF.

:)

Thecollegedropout
11-16-2011, 02:12 PM
yes, shannon sharpe was well known as a great blocking TE. *eyeroll*

i guess tom brady sucked, too. i mean, he only had an all-time great season because he was throwing to moss. peyton? ha. if he hadn't been throwing to harrison, wayne and clark his whole career, he'd have been terrible.
I am sure people would take John Elway over Chad Pennington, Vinny Testaverde and Drew Bledsoe...

I am not saying Davis stinks but he did get the benefit of working on better than than Martin did.

And I should have reworded what I said on Sharpe better....as a threat he took the pressure off the running game and that teams had to respect Sharpe down the middle.

diabsoule
11-16-2011, 02:28 PM
Here's the preliminary list of nominees for 2012: http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2011/9/28/modern-era-nominees-for-the-class-of-2012/

Notable standouts for me are:

Time Brown
Cris Carter
Andre Reed
Dermontti Dawson
Will Shields
Willie Roaf
Sterling Sharpe
Ben Coates
Karl Mecklenberg
Sam Mills
Steve Atwater
LeRoy Butler
Kenny Easley
Aeneas Williams
Darren Woodson
Ed "Too Tall" Jones
Steve Tasker
Don Coryell
Bill Parcells
Steve Sabol

XxXdragonXxX
11-16-2011, 02:35 PM
Here's the preliminary list of nominees for 2012: http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2011/9/28/modern-era-nominees-for-the-class-of-2012/

Notable standouts for me are:

Time Brown
Cris Carter
Andre Reed
Dermontti Dawson
Will Shields
Willie Roaf
Sterling Sharpe
Ben Coates
Karl Mecklenberg
Sam Mills
Steve Atwater
LeRoy Butler
Kenny Easley
Aeneas Williams
Darren Woodson
Ed "Too Tall" Jones
Steve Tasker
Don Coryell
Bill Parcells
Steve Sabol

Your list is missin Cortez Kennedy.

I'd love for Easley to get in, he was certainly good enough, but his short career doesn't help.

diabsoule
11-16-2011, 02:39 PM
Your list is missin Cortez Kennedy.

I'd love for Easley to get in, he was certainly good enough, but his short career doesn't help.

Kennedy was damn good but he's not a first ballot for me.

If it was only me that decided on who go to the HoF this year my list would be:

Dermontti Dawson
Willie Roaf
Will Shields
Tim Brown
Cris Carter
Bill Parcells
Steve Tasker

Crazy_Chris
11-16-2011, 02:42 PM
Kennedy was damn good but he's not a first ballot for me.

If it was only me that decided on who go to the HoF this year my list would be:

Dermontti Dawson
Willie Roaf
Will Shields
Tim Brown
Cris Carter
Bill Parcells
Steve Tasker

Cortez Kennedy wouldn't be first ballot, he has been eligible since 2005 i believe.

Raiderz4Life
11-16-2011, 02:46 PM
Sterlin Sharpe would be nice. Don't know if he will though cuz of the short career.

Paul
11-16-2011, 02:49 PM
I forget how good the KC O-line was in the early-mid 2000s

FUNBUNCHER
11-16-2011, 03:05 PM
Damn look at all those safeties!! Hope at least one of them breaks through.

MetSox17
11-16-2011, 03:38 PM
When you think of hall of fame runningbacks, you think of Walter Peyton, Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, Jim Brown, Gale Sayers, Eric Dickerson, Marshall Faulk..

Jerome Bettis and Curtis Martin absolutely do NOT deserve to be mentioned in the same category as those guys, and it would be a damn shame if they got in.

Borat
11-16-2011, 03:48 PM
Aaron Rodgers, QB of the Green Bay Packers, is a lock to get in this year.

Amiwrong?

diabsoule
11-16-2011, 03:51 PM
When you think of hall of fame runningbacks, you think of Walter Peyton, Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith, Jim Brown, Gale Sayers, Eric Dickerson, Marshall Faulk..

Jerome Bettis and Curtis Martin absolutely do NOT deserve to be mentioned in the same category as those guys, and it would be a damn shame if they got in.

This running back class is very mediocre but out of it I could see Terrell Davis and Roger Craig, maybe Herschel Walker, over anybody. The case could be made for Stephen Davis too. All of those over Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis.

MetSox17
11-16-2011, 03:56 PM
The case could be made for Stephen Davis too.

LOLWUT

Stephen Davis? Are you joking?

Raiderz4Life
11-16-2011, 03:58 PM
Herschel Walker???

Guy was a freak athlete but...cmon now...

diabsoule
11-16-2011, 03:59 PM
LOLWUT

Stephen Davis? Are you joking?

The case can be made for almost anybody. Doesn't necessarily mean it will be a good case.

MetSox17
11-16-2011, 04:00 PM
I'd love to see you try to make a case for Stephen Davis over Curtis Martin. I don't think Martin belongs in the HoF, but there's no need to spit on the guy.

diabsoule
11-16-2011, 04:00 PM
Herschel Walker???

Guy was a freak athlete but...cmon now...

That's why I said maybe. Terrell Davis and Roger Craig definitely in my book especially ahead of Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis

FUNBUNCHER
11-16-2011, 04:07 PM
Herschel Walker?? Even based on numbers he hasn't had anything close to a HOF career.

Bettis and Martin are near locks for the HOF. There are too many arguments in their favor for getting in, mainly career rushing yardage.
Bettis is 5th alltime and Martin is 4th.
Their rankings may change based on what LD does this season and the next, but neither will be lower than 6th alltime.

I know people like to throw around criticisms about guys who stay too long to pick up stats, but most teams don't play old RBs unless they're still effective.

Both guys retired at age 32, about the time when most RBs are done anyway.

BigBanger
11-16-2011, 04:10 PM
This running back class is very mediocre but out of it I could see Terrell Davis and Roger Craig, maybe Herschel Walker, over anybody. The case could be made for Stephen Davis too. All of those over Curtis Martin and Jerome Bettis.
Herschel Walker? Are you ******* joking or just ********? I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but he's considered a bust. Okay, he's a ******* bust. If memory serves me correctly, he had one 1,000 yard rushing season in his entire career, I think it was around 1,600 yards (which was the only thing -- other than his college career / hype -- that got him traded to Minnesota). I don't think you can put a guy into the Hall of Fame when he was the worst part of the biggest blockbuster trade of the 80s.

Stephen Davis? Seriously? Is he top 10 all-time in rushing or something? Stephen Davis had, maybe, two seasons that could be considered something close to an all-pro level (and this purely off the top of my head) and the rest of his career, he was a solid, but unspectacular player that was frequently in a battle for his starting job. He's probably most known for getting punched in the face by Michael Westbrook.

Raiderz4Life
11-16-2011, 04:13 PM
Herschel Walker?? Even based on numbers he hasn't had anything close to a HOF career.

Bettis and Martin are near locks for the HOF. There are too many arguments in their favor for getting in, mainly career rushing yardage.
Bettis is 5th alltime and Martin is 4th.
Their rankings may change based on what LD does this season and the next, but neither will be lower than 6th alltime.

I know people like to throw around criticisms about guys who stay too long to pick up stats, but most teams don't play old RBs unless they're still effective.

Both guys retired at age 32, about the time when most RBs are done anyway.

Bettis had a 3.9 YPC and Martin like a 4.0 YPC....IDC how you slice it those are NOT HoF averages

MetSox17
11-16-2011, 04:18 PM
Guys, it's clear that certain people associate mediocrity with HoF credentials.

vidae
11-16-2011, 04:19 PM
Bettis and Martin are NOT locks for the HoF.. not even close. I'd be surprised if either got in.

FUNBUNCHER
11-16-2011, 04:21 PM
Total yards rushing is a more important stat than YPC for HOF RBs.

Only two HOF RBs are in the top 20 for YPC for a career, and both played in the 1950s.

BigBanger
11-16-2011, 04:22 PM
Guys, it's clear that certain people associate mediocrity with HoF credentials.
Yes. Particularly the voters.

FUNBUNCHER
11-16-2011, 04:25 PM
Guys, it's clear that certain people associate mediocrity with HoF credentials.
Bettis and Martin were 'mediocre'??

Might wanna re-think that.

Raiderz4Life
11-16-2011, 04:33 PM
Total yards rushing is a more important stat than YPC for HOF RBs.

Only two HOF RBs are in the top 20 for YPC for a career, and both played in the 1950s.

Walter averaged 4.4 ypc Sanders 5.0 ypc OJ 4.7 ypc Campbell 4.3 ypc Marshall 4.3 ypc Emmit 4.2 ypc...all of them were over 4.0 ypc...Faulk and Smith being the lowest at 4.2....they don't have to be at the very top of the list but they had very solid YPC and were for the most part the primary weapon on their respective teams.

Bettis was an integral part but he was never elite or the best at his position...and Martin was solid and did his job well but again..was never elite or the best at what he did.

FUNBUNCHER
11-16-2011, 04:37 PM
Good luck keeping the 4th and 5th leading rushers alltime out of the HOF.

Here's how good Curtis Martin was. If Adrian Peterson, who has a 4.8 YPC, finishes with 1400 yards this season, he will have a career total of 7200 yards in 5 years. If AD duplicates that production over the next 5 years, he'll have roughly 14200 yards rushing in 10 years.

That's 100 yards more than Martin had 11 seasons.
I don't think there ever will be a case where a 14000 yd back is barred from Canton.

Bettis+SB ring+Steelers great+5th alltime rusher = HOF.

Raiderz4Life
11-16-2011, 04:41 PM
They'll probably get in...but do they deserve to?

NO!!

Complex
11-16-2011, 05:06 PM
Bettis had a 3.9 YPC and Martin like a 4.0 YPC....IDC how you slice it those are NOT HoF averages

John Riggins has a 3.9 YPC average.
Larry Csonka only rushed for a 1,000 3x and his career high is 1,117.
Franco Harris had a a 4.1 YPC average.

diabsoule
11-16-2011, 05:23 PM
If you're doing yards per carry then
Betts 3.9
Martin 4.0
Davis 4.1
Terrell Davis 4.6
Walker 4.2

Total yards in their career
Walker 8,225 In 13 seasons
Terrell Davis 7,607 in 7 seasons
Stephen Davis 8,052 in 11 seasons
Jerome Bettis 13,662 in 13 seasons
Curtis Martin 14,401 in 11 seasons

Crazy_Chris
11-16-2011, 05:49 PM
Too much focus goes into Jerome Bettis's 13,662 yards. Yea thats 5th all time, but that alone shouldn't make you a HOF player. Jerome is a likeable guy so a lot of fans would like to see him in the HOF. But no matter how many times someone brings up him being 5th all time in rushing. It still won't change that he is just a good RB that played a long time and compiled stats.

If we are putting Jerome in because he is 5th all time in rushing... Then we gotta put Vinny Testaverde in becuase he is 7th all time in passing.

Ness
11-16-2011, 05:58 PM
Too much focus goes into Jerome Bettis's 13,662 yards. Yea thats 5th all time, but that alone shouldn't make you a HOF player. Jerome is a likeable guy so a lot of fans would like to see him in the HOF. But no matter how many times someone brings up him being 5th all time in rushing. It still won't change that he is just a good RB that played a long time and compiled stats.

If we are putting Jerome in because he is 5th all time in rushing... Then we gotta put Vinny Testaverde in becuase he is 7th all time in passing.

Well he did put some great seasons. And he really helped carry the Steelers before Rothelisberger was there. For a while the Steelers main strength was that running game behind Bettis and that defense.

Crazy_Chris
11-16-2011, 06:03 PM
Herschel Walker?? Even based on numbers he hasn't had anything close to a HOF career.

Bettis and Martin are near locks for the HOF. There are too many arguments in their favor for getting in, mainly career rushing yardage.
Bettis is 5th alltime and Martin is 4th.
Their rankings may change based on what LD does this season and the next, but neither will be lower than 6th alltime.

I know people like to throw around criticisms about guys who stay too long to pick up stats, but most teams don't play old RBs unless they're still effective.

Both guys retired at age 32, about the time when most RBs are done anyway.

Jerome's last 4 seasons when he was 30 years old:
793 att 2786 yards 3.5YPC 30 rec 229 yards

That's mediocrity not effectivness, the only thing he did well was pound the ball into the endzone.

diabsoule
11-16-2011, 06:06 PM
davis played 4 games in 2 of those seasons, and only 8 in his final season. not suggesting that necessarily matters, just that 7 seasons is not really reflective of anything.

Agree. According to nfl.com Davis only started more than 10 games in four seasons and never rushed for less than 1,100 yards and averaged no less than 4.5 yards per carry in those seasons and accumulated 56 touchdowns in those four years

Davis, IMO, should be in the HoF

MetSox17
11-16-2011, 06:11 PM
If we are putting Jerome in because he is 5th all time in rushing... Then we gotta put Vinny Testaverde in becuase he is 7th all time in passing.

And boom goes the dynamite.

Abaddon
11-16-2011, 06:52 PM
Kickers/Punters
Gary Anderson (K), Nick Lowery (K), Reggie Roby (P), MIKE VANDERJAGT (K)

Um...what???

Brodeur
11-16-2011, 07:06 PM
Um...what???

Don't worry, Peyton will murder him if he ever comes within 100 miles of Canton.

Abaddon
11-16-2011, 07:09 PM
Eh? I don't care about the idiot kicker. It's the punter not named Ray Guy that has me bewildered.

Is Guy no longer considered "modern era"?

Complex
11-16-2011, 07:12 PM
Um...what???

I thought you said that because he was a black punter, which is a dying breed.

Abaddon
11-16-2011, 07:29 PM
Black guys can't punt. They're not smart enough...or something.

FUNBUNCHER
11-16-2011, 09:32 PM
Too much focus goes into Jerome Bettis's 13,662 yards. Yea thats 5th all time, but that alone shouldn't make you a HOF player. Jerome is a likeable guy so a lot of fans would like to see him in the HOF. But no matter how many times someone brings up him being 5th all time in rushing. It still won't change that he is just a good RB that played a long time and compiled stats.

If we are putting Jerome in because he is 5th all time in rushing... Then we gotta put Vinny Testaverde in becuase he is 7th all time in passing.

QBs don't get crushed on every play like running backs do after the handoff.
It took Testaverde 16 years to put up those numbers and at his best, he was just a decent player.
Bettis was a monster as a rookie playing for the Rams, and for a long time was the game's most intimidating RB; the last player any LB or DB wanted to attempt to tackle one on one.

Maybe it's a Steelers bias, but I think there's too much poor mouthing Bettis' NFL career.
I put him right up there with the greatest power RBs(Jim Brown/Larry Csonka/John Riggins/Earl Campbell/Motley).

P308JIRq42Y

brat316
11-16-2011, 10:06 PM
Try and think back to when he wasn't as fat and was agile and could do the occasional juke.

Thecollegedropout
11-17-2011, 12:02 AM
i'm still not sure what that has to do with anything. davis was a top running back in the nfl for nearly every full season he played. martin was once in his entire career. if you're just looking at stats, you're probably doing it wrong.

* i should edit... in this case, you're doing it wrong. like i said somewhere up above, i have no doubt, unfortunately, that martin's compiling will get him a spot and will be taken into account. my suggestion is solely on the basis of comparison between martin and davis, not about hall eligibility.
That has plenty to do with something, Davis played in a better offense around him and that his yards were easier due to teams focusing on the passing attack Denver had.

If we are holding Martin back because he was fortunate enough to last longer than other RBs, than I have every right to discredit Davis for being lucky to play with hall of fame talent for years. It doesn't mean Davis sucks or anything....Emmitt played with tons of talent and he is one of the best ever at his position.

Curtis Martin was the NFL's leading rusher in 2004. As a RB, the fact he lasted so long and put up very good stats for such a long stint is something very tough to find among RBs and is something that deserves plenty of credit. People try and discount him for taking so many years to get to be where he is on the all-time rushing yards list but remember that many RBs don't get to that point where they can keep on going.

People get caught up by saying "Oh but this player never dominated EVER!" when people refuse to respect players who over a longevity keep up their consistency. Being a dominant player is not the end all be all for the hall of fame, players who consistently put up more than respectable stats likewise get some love. This isn't Shaun Alexander we are talking about.

Martin put up good numbers but his best days got overshadowed by a Prime Tomlinson.

XxXdragonXxX
11-17-2011, 12:08 AM
Kennedy was damn good but he's not a first ballot for me.

If it was only me that decided on who go to the HoF this year my list would be:

Dermontti Dawson
Willie Roaf
Will Shields
Tim Brown
Cris Carter
Bill Parcells
Steve Tasker


Tez has been eligable for years, and he's been a finalist for the HOF for the past 2 years. I'm about 98% sure he'll get in this year, and I'd be very angry if Tim Brown got in over him.

Sloopy
11-17-2011, 10:21 AM
Jim Brown

No body will ever be a better powerback than Jim Brown

Jim Brown>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by a mile

Brodeur
11-17-2011, 10:24 AM
Bettis had double digit touchdowns TWICE in thirteen years, so putting him with Campbell, Jim Brown, Riggins, and so forth is a bit much.

diabsoule
11-17-2011, 10:26 AM
Bettis had double digit touchdowns TWICE in thirteen years, so putting him with Campbell, Jim Brown, Riggins, and so forth is a bit much.

Curtis Martin only had double digit tds four times in eleven years, five times if you add receiving tds.

Splat
11-17-2011, 10:29 AM
I don't think either should be in the HOF.

jth1331
11-17-2011, 11:10 AM
Isaac Bruce is 3rd in career receiving yards. Is he a HOFer?
Tim Brown is 4th in career receiving yards, not in the HOF.
Marvin Harrison is 6th and probably isn't a lock.
Cris Carter is 8th, not in the HOF.
Henry Ellard 9th, not in the HOF.
Torry Holt is 10th, no shot in the HOF.

So tell me why Bettis and Martin should be locks just because of their rushing yards?
Edgerrin James ended up with only 1,500 yards less than Bettis and 3 total TD's less playing in 2 seasons less, but he's not even close to HOF discussion.

Stop looking at total yards rushing, and actually compare the RB's to others in their era and ask yourself "Was he the BEST or second BEST RB during his era?"
If the answer is no, GTFO he's not a lock for the HOF.

jrdrylie
11-17-2011, 11:16 AM
Agree. According to nfl.com Davis only started more than 10 games in four seasons and never rushed for less than 1,100 yards and averaged no less than 4.5 yards per carry in those seasons and accumulated 56 touchdowns in those four years

Davis, IMO, should be in the HoF

Stephen Davis in the Hall of Fame? Stephen Davis from the Redskins and Panthers? He had four very good seasons. Other than that he had three mediocre seasons, and four seasons where he was irrelevant.

If Stephen Davis EVER makes the Hall of Fame, they should burn down the Hall of Fame.

descendency
11-17-2011, 12:25 PM
I'm all for having very good players who maintained it for a long period in the hall of fame.

It's a lot harder to be very good for 10 years than great for 3.

Raiderz4Life
11-17-2011, 12:32 PM
I'm all for having very good players who maintained it for a long period in the hall of fame.

It's a lot harder to be very good for 10 years than great for 3.

Think you only deserve to be in the HoF if you were very good with absolute dominance for most your career/prime and then be very good the rest of your career.

diabsoule
11-17-2011, 12:53 PM
Stephen Davis in the Hall of Fame? Stephen Davis from the Redskins and Panthers? He had four very good seasons. Other than that he had three mediocre seasons, and four seasons where he was irrelevant.

If Stephen Davis EVER makes the Hall of Fame, they should burn down the Hall of Fame.

Stephen Davis is on the preliminary list. That's why I brought his name up.
http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2011/9/28/modern-era-nominees-for-the-class-of-2012/

I really think this should be the year of the big uglies:

Dermontti Dawson
Willie Roaf
Will Shields
Cortez Kennedy
Steve Tasker
Bill Parcells (coach)
Steve Sabol (contributor)

BigBanger
11-17-2011, 01:32 PM
I will preface this and say that I am a huge Jerome Bettis fan. He was one of my favorites and a true power back. He was a unique player and a damn good one. But there is certainly a staggering argument against him. I will not be mad if he makes it to the Hall, and I think, eventually, he will. Will I think he's completely deserving? Do I consider him a better RB than Terrell Davis? Priest Holmes? Other dominant guys of his era? Ladainian Tomlinson? Edgerrin James? No. I don't. Those guys, to me, were dominant players with great careers or guys who had their careers cut short for one reason: injuries. It's hard for me to shun guys like Sterling Sharpe, Kenny Easley and Terrell Davis because their careers were cut short over something they couldn't control and then accept guys who were LUCKY enough to stay healthy and tack on several moderately productive seasons, which greatly impacts their career numbers.

Bettis had three seasons that can be considered great, Hall of Fame worthy seasons. Three. Out of 13 seasons. Does Terrell Davis have three Hall of Fame worthy seasons? Bettis had 38 TDs in the last 4 years of his career where he was little more than a short yardage, goal line back and a backup to a bum like Willie Parker. His career numbers look much better because of those four seasons where he was completely and utterly mediocre. You take those four years off his career and he goes from 91 rushing TDs to 53 rushing TDs. The 53 were actually obtained during the meat or prime of his career (about 9 seasons). You wanna take a look at how many TDs Terrell Davis had in his first 4 years? It's 56 rushing TDs.

Bettis was sensational his rookie season, which was, maybe, the best year of his career. He had that rare combination of speed and power. He became the focal point of the Rams offense and quickly ran into 9 man fronts and had an offensive scheme change, and his level of play significantly declined because he lacked patience and vision. He simply dropped his head and became "a battering ram." He was regressing into a FB. He was basically a defensive player running with the ball. He went to Pittsburgh and actually learned how to run. He had two great seasons were he averaged over 1,500 rushing yards and 10 TDs. But after that -- 5 years into his career -- he slowly started to get a little bigger, a little slower and little more one dimensional. He never had a great season again after that. He was solid, but unspectacular. He still maintained some level of competent production, but was never again a special player, or an elite one.

I consider 1,300 rushing yards the benchmark for a substantial measure of success. Bettis only had 4 seasons with over 1,300 rushing yards. 4 out of 13. 8 seasons with over 1,000 yards.

Another knock I have against Bettis is lack of postseason success. He has a ring, yes, but he was hardly the focal point to that team. He was just another guy with a specific, but limited role within the offense. His most noteworthy or memorable postseason moment is ... his fumble against the Colts. That's not necessarily the shining moment you want defining your Hall of Fame career.

When I think of Hall of Fame players, well, there is no thinking involved. I don't have to check stats, I don't have to watch old YouTube video's of the player in the prime of their career. I vividly remember their greatness and it becomes obvious. It's a resounding yes. If it's not, then I don't think they belong. When I think of great RBs, Jerome Bettis is far from one of the first names that pops into my head. Curtis Martin is in the same boat and to even a less degree. With Curtis Martin I think, "Yeah, he was pretty good. Solid workhorse and a bit underrated." I don't think of a Hall of Fame player.

Crazy_Chris
11-17-2011, 01:46 PM
QBs don't get crushed on every play like running backs do after the handoff.
It took Testaverde 16 years to put up those numbers and at his best, he was just a decent player.
Bettis was a monster as a rookie playing for the Rams, and for a long time was the game's most intimidating RB; the last player any LB or DB wanted to attempt to tackle one on one.

Maybe it's a Steelers bias, but I think there's too much poor mouthing Bettis' NFL career.
I put him right up there with the greatest power RBs(Jim Brown/Larry Csonka/John Riggins/Earl Campbell/Motley).

P308JIRq42Y

It doesn't matter wheter or not QBs get crushed every play, or if Vinny was just a decent player at his best. The point is that some talk as if being 5th all time in rushing makes him automatic for the hall. As if he doesn't matter in what way he got there. If thats the case than you need to do the same for everyone. Which is no way to choose a HOF player.

and for a long time was the game's most intimidating RB; the last player any LB or DB wanted to attempt to tackle one on one.

The same thing could said about for Mike Alstott aside from RB...

_RSf0c4a2RI

Just because some people don't think he should be a HOF player doesn't mean they are bad mouthing him. I haven't seen anyone who would suggest he wasn't a good player. People are just suggesting he isn't an all time great player.

Brodeur
11-17-2011, 04:00 PM
Curtis Martin only had double digit tds four times in eleven years, five times if you add receiving tds.

I don't think either should be in the HOF, but it's considerably worse for Bettis considering the fact that he was a power back.

CC.SD
11-17-2011, 05:03 PM
**** yes, Mike Alstott reference!

FUNBUNCHER
11-17-2011, 08:09 PM
My bad, Testaverde played 21 NFL seasons not 16.

It's funny because on the career passing yardage list he's surround by HOFs with similar passing numbers, but NONE who played close to the amount of years Testaverde did.

Bettis' rushing numbers simply are more impressive. RB is the most physically demanding position in football because of the amount of hits they take.

Only 7 RBs in the history of the NFL have eclipsed 13000 yards in a career. It's not the same as a QB passing passing for 40,000 yards. 12 QBs have already done it, and IMO at least 5-7 more currently playing will top that mark before they retire.

The last RB to break the 13000 mark was Tomlinson. Before that, the last two RBs to break 13000 yards were Martin/Bettis in 2004.
IMO there won't be another RB who comes close to that mark until 2015(Adrian Peterson), assuming he stays healthy.

And how can you honestly subtract TDs from a RB because he scored them near the goal line??
Riggins is in the HOF because from 5 yards in, he was nearly automatic. So was Emmitt Smith.

I get that people don't consider Bettis a 'special' RB throughout his career, but just as a football fan, keep an eye out for the next 5'11, 265# tailback who rushes for over 13000 yards and 91 TDs.

If the Steelers were ever a legit vertical passing offense throughout his career, Bettis' numbers might have been even more impressive.

Complex
11-17-2011, 08:11 PM
No body will ever be a better powerback than Jim Brown

Jim Brown>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by a mile

Earl Campbell > Jim Brown powerback

jth1331
11-17-2011, 11:23 PM
My bad, Testaverde played 21 NFL seasons not 16.

It's funny because on the career passing yardage list he's surround by HOFs with similar passing numbers, but NONE who played close to the amount of years Testaverde did.

Bettis' rushing numbers simply are more impressive. RB is the most physically demanding position in football because of the amount of hits they take.

Only 7 RBs in the history of the NFL have eclipsed 13000 yards in a career. It's not the same as a QB passing passing for 40,000 yards. 12 QBs have already done it, and IMO at least 5-7 more currently playing will top that mark before they retire.

The last RB to break the 13000 mark was Tomlinson. Before that, the last two RBs to break 13000 yards were Martin/Bettis in 2004.
IMO there won't be another RB who comes close to that mark until 2015(Adrian Peterson), assuming he stays healthy.

And how can you honestly subtract TDs from a RB because he scored them near the goal line??
Riggins is in the HOF because from 5 yards in, he was nearly automatic. So was Emmitt Smith.

I get that people don't consider Bettis a 'special' RB throughout his career, but just as a football fan, keep an eye out for the next 5'11, 265# tailback who rushes for over 13000 yards and 91 TDs.

If the Steelers were ever a legit vertical passing offense throughout his career, Bettis' numbers might have been even more impressive.

Edgerrin ******* James has nearly identical stats, so I have a huge problem asserting Bettis as a lock for the HOF.

FUNBUNCHER
11-17-2011, 11:38 PM
Edgerrin ******* James has nearly identical stats, so I have a huge problem asserting Bettis as a lock for the HOF.

Edge just wasn't durable, and some would accuse him of being injury prone. Not his fault, but his inability to avoid IR is what IMO will keep him out of the Hall, at least in the short term.

Backs who don't have nearly superhuman durability, that talent to absorb the punishment of 300+ carries year after and year and still produce at a high level, rarely if ever make it to Canton.

And it sure helps being a RB playing with Peyton Manning. How many 8 man fronts did James have to bulldoze through during his career??

Complex
11-17-2011, 11:55 PM
Edge just wasn't durable, and some would accuse him of being injury prone. Not his fault, but his inability to avoid IR is what IMO will keep him out of the Hall, at least in the short term.

Backs who don't have nearly superhuman durability, that talent to absorb the punishment of 300+ carries year after and year and still produce at a high level, rarely if ever make it to Canton.

And it sure helps being a RB playing with Peyton Manning. How many 8 man fronts did James have to bulldoze through during his career??

When James went down the 1st time, Peyton struggled.

BigBanger
11-18-2011, 01:41 AM
Edge just wasn't durable, and some would accuse him of being injury prone. Not his fault, but his inability to avoid IR is what IMO will keep him out of the Hall, at least in the short term.
He went on IR once in his entire career after he tore his ACL in his third season. He took a year to come back from that injury and wasn't the same player in 2002. His ACL injury did derail what-might-have-been a more noteworthy career, but unable to avoid IR? Are you just making **** up?


If you look at his numbers from 1999, 2000, 2003, 2004 and 2005 (in seasons where he played in at least 13 plus games with little to no lingering knee issues) ... his numbers look like this:


1999 - 16 games - 369 Attempts - 1,553 Rushing yards (4.2 Avg) - 13 TDs
62 Receptions - 586 Receiving yards (9.5 Avg) - 4 TDs - 2,139 Total Yards - 17 TDs

2000 - 16 games - 387 Attempts - 1,709 Rushing yards (4.7 Avg) - 13 TDs
63 Receptions - 594 Receiving yards (9.4 Avg) - 5 TDs - 2,303 Total Yards - 18 TDs

2003 - 13 games - 310 Attempts - 1,259 Rushing yards (4.1 Avg) - 11 TDs
51 Receptions - 292 Receiving yards (5.7 Avg) - 1,551 Total Yards - 11 TDs

2004 - 16 games - 334 Attempts - 1,548 Rushing yards (4.6 Avg) - 9 TDs
51 Receptions - 483 Receiving yards (9.4 Avg) - 2,031 Total Yards - 9 TDs

2005 - 15 games - 360 Attempts - 1,506 Rushing yards (4.2 Avg) - 13 TDs
44 Receptions - 337 Receiving yards (7.7 Avg) - 1 TD - 1,843 Total Yards - 14 TDs


Edgerrin James was a better runner than Curtis Martin was. He was more explosive, had just as much power and strength and was much more elusive and difficult to tackle. Not to mention his ability to catch passes out of the backfield. Edge was also one of the best blockers in the NFL from the RB position. He's had (3) seasons with 2,000+ yards from scrimmage and one season, which ranks him 9th all-time (It was 4th most when he actually accomplished the feat). Just to put that into perspective, Curtis Martin has never had 2,000 yards from scrimmage in a single season (and he only came remotely close twice). James did it three times. Marshall Faulk did it (4) times. James was a complete player.

Do I think he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame? He's not a resounding yes for me, but I think there's a much better argument for Edgerrin James than there is for Curtis Martin or Jerome Bettis.


And it sure helps being a RB playing with Peyton Manning. How many 8 man fronts did James have to bulldoze through during his career??
What does that have to do with anything?


And how can you honestly subtract TDs from a RB because he scored them near the goal line??
Wait ... so let me get this straight.

We give one RB credit for sitting on the sidelines and coming in once the offense gets down to the 1 yard line and punches it in, but we don't give another RB credit for averaging over 100 yards per game because he played with a great QB?

Or you could take take that last stupid ******* quote of yours and try to understand context.

boknows34
11-18-2011, 02:37 AM
Stephen Davis is on the preliminary list. That's why I brought his name up.
http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2011/9/28/modern-era-nominees-for-the-class-of-2012/

I really think this should be the year of the big uglies:

Dermontti Dawson
Willie Roaf
Will Shields
Cortez Kennedy
Steve Tasker
Bill Parcells (coach)
Steve Sabol (contributor)

You can only have a maximum of 5 modern era candidates elected each year. The remaining two spots are for the veteran committee candidates giving each HOF Class a maximum of 7 members.

Reed, Kennedy, Dawson, Roaf and Martin made the cut down to the Last 10 last year. Shields will get elected eventually but he'll have to join the queue behind Dawson and Roaf this year and then there's Ogden and Larry Allen in 2013. Tasker has never been a finalist and his best chance is probably via the Seniors route many years down the road.

jth1331
11-18-2011, 08:26 AM
Please for the love tell me why Steve Tasker should be in the HOF.

Brodeur
11-18-2011, 09:19 AM
Please for the love tell me why Steve Tasker should be in the HOF.

SPECIAL TEAMS ACE BRO. Don't worry, Diab will be all about Brendon Ayanbadejo in a few years.