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Sloopy
11-16-2011, 01:14 PM
Interesting story on ESPN right now, the Bronco's are running a little bit of the triple option with Tebow. Previously believed to be effective only in college, not the NFL; Can the system last in the NFL for the Bronco's and ultimately, Tebow?

If so, how does this effect their drafting or is this just a stop gap until they can get another QB in the coming draft?

kalbears13
11-16-2011, 01:26 PM
Interesting story on ESPN right now, the Bronco's are running a little bit of the triple option with Tebow. Previously believed to be effective only in college, not the NFL; Can the system last in the NFL for the Bronco's and ultimately, Tebow?

If so, how does this effect their drafting or is this just a stop gap until they can get another QB in the coming draft?

It's just a stopgap. You don't put a normal QB in the triple option in the NFL unless you want him dead. The only reason Tebow can do it is because he's a below average quarterback in a fullback's body.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-16-2011, 01:28 PM
I don't think it was that it couldn't work; obviously it wouldnt be near as effective with the speed of NFL defenses, but if you had Mike Vick and talented backs, you could definitely run it for positive yards. The real problem is that it can subject your QB to a lot more hits than you'd like. Also you really need to keep it balanced. If the defense doesn't need to respect the pass, you won't get anything done on the ground.

And that is why Denver is gonna get **** kicked against the Jets. They're gonna make Tebow throw the ball if he wants to win. And that's never good.

49erNation85
11-16-2011, 01:30 PM
It may work on the more crappier teams but teams like NE , Pitt or even the Jets will probably stop very easily. If they can perfect it is a small chance that it works. It will be interesting to watch and see how it develops into maybe a good system run with who knows it may work out.

diabsoule
11-16-2011, 01:31 PM
It's a gimmick just like the Wildcat was for a while except it's doubtful that it will catch on throughout the league.

It's about gap control and if a defense can control the A and B gaps and stop the run, especially on first down, it will decrease the effectiveness of the triple option.

A drawback to running the triple option in the pros as opposed to college is the speed of the defenses. If you bust the play outside like running a veer or sweep it won't nearly be as effective as it would be say for Georgia Tech or Navy.

More than likely the triple option can get yards but as long as the defensive tackles and linebackers stay true to their assignments, the defense limits blitzing, then it slows down and eventually stops the triple option.

Sloopy
11-16-2011, 01:33 PM
It may work on the more crappier teams but teams like NE , Pitt or even the Jets will probably stop very easily. If they can perfect it is a small chance that it works. It will be interesting to watch and see how it develops into maybe a good system run with who knows it may work out.

I would be interested to see the option pass be implemented. having the receivers run routes down field and let Tebow simply read the DB's. If they cover: run if they come up to stop the run: pass

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-16-2011, 01:36 PM
I would be interested to see the option pass be implemented. having the receivers run routes down field and let Tebow simply read the DB's. If they cover: run if they come up to stop the run: pass

It sounds good in theory, but unfortunately Tebow really can't throw on the run with any accuracy whatsoever.

But he can't from the pocket, either, so who knows what's gonna happen.

Sloopy
11-16-2011, 01:37 PM
It's a gimmick just like the Wildcat was for a while except it's doubtful that it will catch on throughout the league.

It's about gap control and if a defense can control the A and B gaps and stop the run, especially on first down, it will decrease the effectiveness of the triple option.

A drawback to running the triple option in the pros as opposed to college is the speed of the defenses. If you bust the play outside like running a veer or sweep it won't nearly be as effective as it would be say for Georgia Tech or Navy.

More than likely the triple option can get yards but as long as the defensive tackles and linebackers stay true to their assignments, the defense limits blitzing, then it slows down and eventually stops the triple option.

I tend to agree, but for the sake of playing devil's advocate:
It may not need to catch on with other teams, if it works for Tebow and thus the Bronco's does this solidify Tebow as their QB; or even IF it is successful, do you cut your losses and draft a more conventional QB?

For the record I think this works until teams get more tape on it, just like many of the other gimmicks that have come along in the NFL. Just can't run it on every down

Hurricanes25
11-16-2011, 01:39 PM
NFL defenses are just too fast for it to work. Like the Wildcat, once teams and coaches figure it out, it won't be around for long.

AntoinCD
11-16-2011, 01:41 PM
It's a gimmick just like the Wildcat was for a while except it's doubtful that it will catch on throughout the league.

It's about gap control and if a defense can control the A and B gaps and stop the run, especially on first down, it will decrease the effectiveness of the triple option.

A drawback to running the triple option in the pros as opposed to college is the speed of the defenses. If you bust the play outside like running a veer or sweep it won't nearly be as effective as it would be say for Georgia Tech or Navy.

More than likely the triple option can get yards but as long as the defensive tackles and linebackers stay true to their assignments, the defense limits blitzing, then it slows down and eventually stops the triple option.

This is a very good point. If defenses play disciplined and stick to their gaps then really the triple option will struggle to have much of an impact.

However, against aggressive teams who like to blitz and swarm to the ball it could be exploited if they over pursue.

Although as has been mentioned before, if Tebow can't show the ability to at least threaten with the pass then it won't work for any prolonged period.

Teams will simply play cover 0 with nine men in the box.

The Jets game will actually be interesting. They tend to prefer teams who try to throw against their DBs and play with up to 7 DBs on the field for prolonged spells. The Broncos will keep them in a base package for much of the night and it may limit Rex's creativeness.

TimmG6376
11-16-2011, 01:54 PM
Like someone else said in another thread. If the Jets are smart they will leave Revis and Cromartie on islands and put as many men at the line of scrimmage as possible.

AntoinCD
11-16-2011, 02:04 PM
Like someone else said in another thread. If the Jets are smart they will leave Revis and Cromartie on islands and put as many men at the line of scrimmage as possible.

I'm pretty sure that's what they'll intend to do. Maybe have David Harris spy Tebow all game. I'm pretty confident the Jets will really clamp down on the Broncos offense and win a low scoring one. The short week plus travel will affect the Jets, particluarly thier offense missing LT.

Bengalsrocket
11-16-2011, 03:17 PM
The problem with these "gimmicky" offenses is that no one has the patience required to develop it.

If you created a triple option that was more dynamic (not just simply "run the ball till you see a blown coverage" on every down) then you could certainly make it last, year in and year out, even after team's have studied it extensively.

The problem begins with how much of a commitment it becomes. In order for a coach to successfully convert an entire offense to a new format like this, he would need 4-5 years to master it. And there is no room for change, which means you can't hire a new coach and you can't let your current coach walk for another job.

I mean realistically you probably want a coach that has run the triple option extensively in college, just so you know you have someone with experience in the subject. But even if you had someone like that, you would still need several more years at the pro level to adjust to the differences.

Basically what I am saying is that if you could get this to work, you wouldn't want to do it just because you happen to have Tim Tebow on your team.

EDIT:
But if they do keep Tebow after this year, they should always include packages like the triple option and wild cat in their playbook. The element of surprise is so rare in the NFL, which makes it extremely valuable.

Sloopy
11-16-2011, 03:20 PM
The problem with these "gimmicky" offenses is that no one has the patience required to develop it.

If you created a triple option that was more dynamic (not just simply "run the ball till you see a blown coverage" on every down) then you could certainly make it last, year in and year out, even after team's have studied it extensively.

The problem begins with how much of a commitment it becomes. In order for a coach to successfully convert an entire offense to a new format like this, he would need 4-5 years to master it. And there is no room for change, which means you can't hire a new coach and you can't let your current coach walk for another job.

I mean realistically you probably want a coach that has run the triple option extensively in college, just so you know you have someone with experience in the subject. But even if you had someone like that, you would still need several more years at the pro level to adjust to the differences.

Basically what I am saying is that if you could get this to work, you wouldn't want to do it just because you happen to have Tim Tebow on your team.

Exactly, I mean essentially you would only be doing it to validate Tim Tebow, and I don't think anyone in the front office is sold enough on him to actually warrant it.

Big Bird
11-16-2011, 03:24 PM
Do people even watch the games?

They are very rarely running the 'triple option'. They aren't running the Navy or Georgia Tech (same thing, really) offense, they are running one with a lot of Florida read option and Nebraska speed option concepts.

The reason it's working so well right now, and Willis McGahee reiterated this, Tebow is so groomed in this system, at least in the read option, that he is making excellent decisions with the football and doing a great job with fakes.

It has a chance to work in the NFL if you have a quarterback, like Tebow, who can make the correct decisions and stay healthy. It's not a "gimmicky" offense. It's only a gimmick when you sprinkle it in every now and then. This is their offense right now, and that should have been pretty obvious after only 8 pass attempts last week.

Bengalsrocket
11-16-2011, 03:30 PM
Do people even watch the games?

They are very rarely running the 'triple option'. They aren't running the Navy or Georgia Tech (same thing, really) offense, they are running one with a lot of Florida read option and Nebraska speed option concepts.

The reason it's working so well right now, and Willis McGahee reiterated this, Tebow is so groomed in this system, at least in the read option, that he is making excellent decisions with the football and doing a great job with fakes.

It has a chance to work in the NFL if you have a quarterback, like Tebow, who can make the correct decisions and stay healthy. It's not a "gimmicky" offense. It's only a gimmick when you sprinkle it in every now and then. This is their offense right now, and that should have been pretty obvious after only 8 pass attempts last week.

People usually define gimmicky offenses as just being unusual. Considering we haven't really seen that type of offense in the NFL since.. well I don't know when the last time we've seen something like this?

It's pretty unusual until next week if they do the same thing.

mqtirishfan
11-16-2011, 04:06 PM
The reason it's working so well right now, and Willis McGahee reiterated this, Tebow is so groomed in this system, at least in the read option, that he is making excellent decisions with the football and doing a great job with fakes.


It worked to the tune of 313 yards and 17 points last week against one of the league's worst rush defenses.

Big Bird
11-16-2011, 04:54 PM
It worked to the tune of 313 yards and 17 points last week against one of the league's worst rush defenses.
They ran for 244 Yards, more than any other team this season against the Chiefs or their past two opponents (Dolphins and Chargers) combined.

Sloopy
11-16-2011, 05:03 PM
Do people even watch the games?

They are very rarely running the 'triple option'. They aren't running the Navy or Georgia Tech (same thing, really) offense, they are running one with a lot of Florida read option and Nebraska speed option concepts.

The reason it's working so well right now, and Willis McGahee reiterated this, Tebow is so groomed in this system, at least in the read option, that he is making excellent decisions with the football and doing a great job with fakes.

It has a chance to work in the NFL if you have a quarterback, like Tebow, who can make the correct decisions and stay healthy. It's not a "gimmicky" offense. It's only a gimmick when you sprinkle it in every now and then. This is their offense right now, and that should have been pretty obvious after only 8 pass attempts last week.

The question then is, does it remain effective all of this season? If it does, do they draft a new QB anyway and part ways with this offensive scheme? Or do they continue to build this team around Tebow?

mqtirishfan
11-16-2011, 05:26 PM
They ran for 244 Yards, more than any other team this season against the Chiefs or their past two opponents (Dolphins and Chargers) combined.

Denver also ran the ball 55 times. San Diego, on the other hand, ran it 27 times and had 440 yards of total offense. But don't let those silly numbers fool you, this Broncos offense is special and unique and really going places.

Big Bird
11-16-2011, 06:41 PM
Denver also ran the ball 55 times. San Diego, on the other hand, ran it 27 times and had 440 yards of total offense. But don't let those silly numbers fool you, this Broncos offense is special and unique and really going places.
Where did I say that? Please, quote me.

Big Bird
11-16-2011, 06:42 PM
The question then is, does it remain effective all of this season? If it does, do they draft a new QB anyway and part ways with this offensive scheme? Or do they continue to build this team around Tebow?
Did you even read my full statement? Or do you treat it like the games and barely pay attention?

It has a chance to work in the NFL if you have a quarterback, like Tebow, who can make the correct decisions and stay healthy.

I clearly said it has a chance to work the rest of the season. Do I think it will? No, and it also doesn't help that the Broncos D will begin to get exploited as well so running the ball as much as they do and just trying to kill clock isn't going to work when trailing.

mqtirishfan
11-16-2011, 06:45 PM
Where did I say that? Please, quote me.

You just spent two different posts pointing out that it's working well right now and that they ran for so many yards against the Chiefs.

Big Bird
11-16-2011, 06:48 PM
You just spent two different posts pointing out that it's working well right now and that they ran for so many yards against the Chiefs.
And that's the same as saying, "is special and unique and really going places."?

No, not quite. Seeing, as you even stated, I said, "working well right now," that's the obvious key. As I can see you're attention span doesn't last very long, I continued to say in my last post, "I clearly said it has a chance to work the rest of the season. Do I think it will? No..."

mqtirishfan
11-16-2011, 06:59 PM
And that's the same as saying, "is special and unique and really going places."?


Again, you defended the Broncos offense in both posts I responded to, and said it was working well.

No, not quite. Seeing, as you even stated, I said, "working well right now," that's the obvious key.

It's not working particularly well right now, as I was pointing out.

As I can see you're attention span doesn't last very long,


I take it your attention span wasn't the best in English class.

I continued to say in my last post, "I clearly said it has a chance to work the rest of the season. Do I think it will? No..."

I'm sorry that I forgot to use my time machine when I posted. Next time I will wait for all future responses you might have.

nepg
11-16-2011, 07:07 PM
Tebow and the Triple Option sounds like a great band name. Give the 3 other band members nicknames: Father (bass), Ghost (lead guitar), Holy Spirit (drums).

Sloopy
11-16-2011, 07:13 PM
Did you even read my full statement? Or do you treat it like the games and barely pay attention?

First of all:
Do you have diabetes/did you forget to take your insulin? Why so angry?

Second of all:
Please quote yourself where you answered the questions about whether, despite the system working or not, they draft a new QB in the coming draft? Or do they continue to build this team around Tebow?

bucfan12
11-16-2011, 07:40 PM
This gimmick offense that Denver is running is going to be shut down and figured out sooner or later. My bet is it starts this week against the Jets. When your QB goes 2/8 for what, 56 yards? Maybe a bit more. THat's not an NFL QB. I'm sorry.

Tebow cannot run an actual NFL offense, nor probably the NFL's version of a spread either. He's not throwing interceptions, but his mechanics are so terrible. He tried fixing his throwing motion, but something he's done for years, is not going to change.

gpngc
11-16-2011, 07:48 PM
LOL @ the thread title. I don't think they've run one triple option all year.

gpngc
11-16-2011, 08:19 PM
http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/features/2011/nfl_2011/week_10/tim_tebow_is_denver_s_afraid_to_throw_offense_craz y_enough_to_work_.html

Chris Brown, easily the best Xs and Os guy on the internet.

I’m more interested in another question: Can someone with skills like Tebow’s be used successfully in the NFL, specifically by introducing elements of spread and option football that are ever-present in high-school and college football? If the last two weeks are any indication, the answer appears to be a very tentative but very shocking, So far, so good.

Television football pundits often say this stuff can't work for long in the NFL because pro defenses are too fast, and that they will just "load the box" and play "assignment" football against the reads and options. While there's truth in this cliché, stopping Denver's Tebow-ized offense is much more complicated than that. Football is governed as much by arithmetic as it is by physics. Though each side gets 11 guys, the defense “gains” a defender when Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers hands the ball off and does nothing but watch the running back. The Patriots and Packers can get away with this because they are a threat at any moment to fake a handoff and throw downfield. That’s why the base defense for most NFL teams includes two deep defenders, safeties who are a lot more useful at defending passes than they are at stopping the run.

If your quarterback—someone like Tebow—is a threat to run the ball, the defense has to account for him. In this case, the quarterback can effectively "block" a defender, which gives backs more space to maneuver on base running plays. No matter how fast NFL linebackers are, the arithmetic doesn’t change: A running quarterback is one more player for a defense to deal with, which means the defense has one fewer player to cut off running lanes or make a tackle. That simple math is why Willis McGahee busted Oakland for 163 yards on just 20 carries to go along with Tebow's 118 on the ground, and a committee of runners combined for more than 240 yards against the Chiefs. Indeed, the whole point of the Broncos’ read-based approach is not to confuse the defense with snazzy new plays. It's to make the defense play honest against their base package—the same old running plays you’ve seen in the NFL for 40 years. To the Broncos’ linemen, this is all the same stuff, just with some plays run from out of shotgun as well as under center.

There’s another advantage to forcing the defense to account for quarterback reads. Rodgers stretches the field vertically by distributing the ball to a bunch of receivers. Tebow stretches the field horizontally, forcing defenders to cover from sideline to sideline by distributing the ball to a number of ball carriers, screen receivers, and pitch men.

gpngc
11-16-2011, 08:38 PM
they ran several last week, but whatever.

With a FB? Or the couple with Eddie Royal as a pitch man?

Sloopy
11-16-2011, 09:00 PM
With a FB? Or the couple with Eddie Royal as a pitch man?

Triple option involves the OPTION to QB keep, hand off, or toss (3 options) hence the TRIPLE.

And yes, yes they have run it this season

gpngc
11-16-2011, 09:02 PM
They've run some with Royal but their offense right now involves more way more zone read and spread concepts than triple option concepts.

Sloopy
11-16-2011, 09:32 PM
They've run some with Royal but their offense right now involves more way more zone read and spread concepts than triple option concepts.

It's understood that they don't run it on every play. YOU said they haven't run it at all.

The point is they are running what has traditionally been an offense not considered to work in the pros

kalbears13
11-16-2011, 10:24 PM
Well if anyone is going to be able to run it consistently in the NFL it's going to be Tebow. So we'll find out soon enough if it will work.

niel89
11-17-2011, 01:56 AM
The rare thing is to have a guy like Tebow who's tank at QB. He can take a hit, although not consistently at the NFL level.

yo123
11-17-2011, 03:16 AM
I'm just saying, but he has thrown for 7 TD's and 1 INT. Really I have no idea what to make of him right now. Maybe it's a gimmick that will fade by the end of the year. But have we seen anything like him recently? We've seen mobile QB's, but not anyone with the pure power running skills that he does, or the instinct that he has with this offense. Who really knows? I'd certainly vote against him working out but still it's interesting.

nobodyinparticular
11-17-2011, 03:25 AM
Is it just me, or does it seem like the best way to defend the Broncos is with a 46 Bear look or a variant with 5 defensive linemen and 2 LBs? Or go with a 4-4 look bringing an extra LB on the field.

The main reason the 46 defense became extinct was because of the wide open passing game. With Tebow, you don't have to worry about the passing option as the primary option so you can bring all your men up to the line of scrimmage and have only one high safety. The Jets are perfect for this with their corners on the outside who can play bump and run.

Spread out your defense on the line of scrimmage to take away the sideline-to-sideline part of the option offense. The key here would be the guys in the middle sticking with their gaps and being disciplined and then having David Harris clean it up in the middle.

yo123
11-17-2011, 03:29 AM
You're definitely not alone there. Decker is their only receiving option, now that they gave away Lloyd. It's actually amazing what he's still doing there with nobody to take away any attention whatsoever.

Play cover 1 with the safety shading to Decker's side. Or even cover 0, it's not like there isn't plenty of CB's in the league athletic enough to stay with Decker deep down the field. That's why I seriously doubt this works long term. Now if they had two legitimate deep threats.....that would make it a little more interesting.

niel89
11-17-2011, 03:39 AM
Just wait for Demaryius Thomas to start running those deep routes. He should be pretty used to it from Georgia Tech.

Timbathia
11-17-2011, 04:23 AM
You're definitely not alone there. Decker is their only receiving option, now that they gave away Lloyd. It's actually amazing what he's still doing there with nobody to take away any attention whatsoever.

Play cover 1 with the safety shading to Decker's side. Or even cover 0, it's not like there isn't plenty of CB's in the league athletic enough to stay with Decker deep down the field. That's why I seriously doubt this works long term. Now if they had two legitimate deep threats.....that would make it a little more interesting.

A cb in cover 0 is at a serious disadvantage. They need to be a lot more athletic that the receiver when the field is that open. Decker and Thomas are both tall, meaning Tebow has a relatively big window to throw the ball if there is never going to be help over the top. This is why it can work long term, as Tebow doesnt have to become super accurate to make it work, especially since there is a high td per completion ratio. I am not saying it ever will work, as Tebow has to improve a lot and no one is sure he can. But even a little improvement from Tebow would make a big difference.

yo123
11-17-2011, 04:34 AM
A cb in cover 0 is at a serious disadvantage. They need to be a lot more athletic that the receiver when the field is that open. Decker and Thomas are both tall, meaning Tebow has a relatively big window to throw the ball if there is never going to be help over the top. This is why it can work long term, as Tebow doesnt have to become super accurate to make it work, especially since there is a high td per completion ratio. I am not saying it ever will work, as Tebow has to improve a lot and no one is sure he can. But even a little improvement from Tebow would make a big difference.


I totally agree overall, but I don't see the potential for improvement in Tebow's passing game that you might. I just think that half of the #1 corners in the league right now could lock Decker down if they were put on an island against him with Tebow at QB.

wogitalia
11-17-2011, 08:09 AM
I'd love to know what the hell the QB coaches have been doing with Tebow. His action was ugly as hell at Florida and slow but it was actually decent accuracy wise.

It's like they looked at what he was doing and decided the only part they'd try and tweak was the accuracy.

That said, there really isn't any good reason this can't work for an extended period of time, the option works at every level it's just that it is a high risk offense in the NFL where QBs are so important and the exposure to injury risk is generally not worth it for what is not a particularly explosive type of offense. With Tebow you have a guy that has shown the ability to be hit and pull up fine.

I actually love the idea, it's sad that this is what it takes for a team to run a "run first" offense in the NFL today but I'm not sure where the idea that it wont work anymore comes from. It's just not as "pretty" to watch, the option is basically just extending the reads the QB makes further into the running game, it's not really all that gimmicky in that it is generally pretty standard NFL type runs with a bit more diversion in it.

It also absolutely can be used to setup the pass, which is where I guess it will sink or swim, it's pretty much the reverse of having a deep threat. You bring the safeties and everyone else up which opens up the deep pass, rather than the more common offense these days of the deep threat opening things up underneath. Tebow needs to make those opportunities that he will get count, the run game should be able to grind out 4 or so yards a carry consistently.

The other question obviously comes when they fall behind. Nowadays most teams shelve the running game if they go down by more than 7 points, will Fox be able to go against that ridiculous trend and keep running if they go down 14 or more? I guess the defense is the key here!

murdamal86
11-17-2011, 08:14 AM
Just wait for Demaryius Thomas to start running those deep routes. He should be pretty used to it from Georgia Tech.


I was thinking that too. He doesn't look healthy at all right now

Sloopy
11-17-2011, 08:54 AM
dude tore his achilles. he's never going to be the same player he was pre-nfl.

Yea it's pretty safe to say that he will never be the same deepthreat he was coming into the draft

Sloopy
11-17-2011, 08:59 AM
Is it just me, or does it seem like the best way to defend the Broncos is with a 46 Bear look or a variant with 5 defensive linemen and 2 LBs? Or go with a 4-4 look bringing an extra LB on the field.

The main reason the 46 defense became extinct was because of the wide open passing game. With Tebow, you don't have to worry about the passing option as the primary option so you can bring all your men up to the line of scrimmage and have only one high safety. The Jets are perfect for this with their corners on the outside who can play bump and run.

Spread out your defense on the line of scrimmage to take away the sideline-to-sideline part of the option offense. The key here would be the guys in the middle sticking with their gaps and being disciplined and then having David Harris clean it up in the middle.

I think the 46 D is pretty much the best way to go here if you have the corners to support it.

If they run the ball you have the personnel on the field (and in the box) to stop it.

If they pass, you can bring enough pressure to sack the **** out of Tebow before he can even get threw his awkward passing motion. Or at the very least, make him toss up a beach ball to one of your DBs

gpngc
11-17-2011, 02:00 PM
Problem with the 46 is that the Broncos come out in a lot of spread formations with Thomas, Willis, Decker, and Royal all getting action. Plus, they like their TEs against LBs. Again, this isn't a triple-option offense (FB, 2TE, etc.), it's a lot of spread looks with zone read option looks and standard runs zone runs.

People think it's easy to "just load up the box and stop the run" but the threat of the pass is still there because Tebow HAS thrown a TD in every game he's played in.

In terms of the Jets, their LBs besides Harris are good matchups for the Broncos TEs and the CBs aren't the greatest run defenders (Revis has already admitted he needs to "not fall asleep" against a run-heavy attack.

I like this offenses chances of continued success in this particular matchup especially because the Jets are coming off a rough loss against the complete opposite attack, and have a short week to prepare.

Raiderz4Life
11-17-2011, 02:17 PM
I'll let Tebow throw as many times as he pleases..chances are he'll complete 1/3 if that of his passes. Throw a TD that's ok....as long as you don't start torching me on the ground.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-17-2011, 04:08 PM
I am interested in this. I don't this offense at this level is sustainable, but some of these DCs haven't seen this since college or HS. So it's kind fun seeing this offense at this level. I want to see how many games or how much film it takes before this offense is dead in the water? Would it be if they keep adding tendency breakers week after week? I like this.

49erNation85
11-17-2011, 06:15 PM
I tell you what guys tho this game tonight will be an exciting game for sure. See the option in the NFL after all these years should be fun . Bring on Tebow.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
11-17-2011, 06:34 PM
NFL defenses are just too fast for it to work. Like the Wildcat, once teams and coaches figure it out, it won't be around for long.

I don't believe the notion NFL defense are just too fast. NFL offenses are much faster than their defensive counterparts. A lot of it comes down to practicing the system and sticking to it so it will be executed properly.

FUNBUNCHER
11-17-2011, 10:43 PM
http://towleroad.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c730253ef0133f2a16061970b-800wi

http://www.thehotglove.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/tebow-returns.jpg


Yeah. I did.

Sloopy
11-17-2011, 11:10 PM
Unfortunately I don't have NFL network, I know the broncos won by a close margin. Can anyone fill me in on how this went/how the offense was?

dabears10
11-17-2011, 11:13 PM
Unfortunately I don't have NFL network, I know the broncos won by a close margin. Can anyone fill me in on how this went/how the offense was?

It was bad until the last drive, then TEBOW MAGIC.

jth1331
11-17-2011, 11:15 PM
When they did it, I think it worked "decently". Problem is, they decided to do stupid **** like run up the gut out with 1 RB too many times with no real deviation.

bearsfan_51
11-17-2011, 11:16 PM
God help me I'm starting to buy into Tebow-mania.

MI_Buckeye
11-17-2011, 11:19 PM
Unfortunately I don't have NFL network, I know the broncos won by a close margin. Can anyone fill me in on how this went/how the offense was?

It was an absolutely hideous performance from the Broncos' offense until the last five minute drive.

Denver's only points up until then came on a pick six and a shanked punt that gave Denver the ball inside the Jets' 30 and an eventual field goal. They went to the triple option alot and it was basically dead. No surprise there. Tebow ran a brilliant speed option on the last drive for about fifteen yards, but the QB leads and busted plays were basically all that worked.

In spite of the media hype, this game was won by the defense of the Broncos. Very rarely can your O put up 110 yards through 55 minutes and still have a chance to win.

Tebow is still just abysmal throwing the ball, but at least he is so bad he doesn't get picked off. Great effort by a great competitor, but I am just ready for him to finally really suck it up the next six games, so I don't have to hear about Tebow every time I turn on ESPN. It just isn't going to work.

Abaddon
11-17-2011, 11:22 PM
I swear, I'll start tebowing if someone takes this guy out next week.

MI_Buckeye
11-17-2011, 11:46 PM
exactly this. the final drive only worked because of blown plays by the jets. and you're absolutely right on the defense, though it helped that sanchez is terrible.

Yeah, the offenses on both sides were almost unwatchable. At one point, I think they were both about 1 of 11 or 12 on third downs.

MI_Buckeye
11-18-2011, 12:00 AM
God help me I'm starting to buy into Tebow-mania.

It's really weird, I've been the biggest Tebow critic for a while, and deep down, I still believe he is a terrible QB.

But I am starting to wonder if I'm being pig-headed and not really giving him a chance. I like to think I am very open-minded, and it would be one thing if he came out and lit defenses up like a Christmas tree, but that is clearly not what's happening.

Tebow is the only guy who could validate both sides of the argument. Indisputable observation: the offense has been pedestrian at very best in four of Tebow's five starts. Indisputable fact: the Broncos are 4-1 in those starts.

Now, IMO, the job of the QB is not to win ball games, that's an all-around team effort. The job of the QB is to direct the offense and put points on the board. More often than not that will lead to winning.

If you judged Aaron Rodgers on his record his first year as a starter (6-10) you would say he wasn't getting the job done. However, any educated football fan could tell you he was obviously a great QB who wasn't getting any help from his team.

I don't know what to make of what's been happening, but I still think Tebow sucks. I'm just having a harder time defending my position.

D-Unit
11-18-2011, 12:43 AM
He's bad. Very Very Baaaaaaad. But you can't hate the guy. hahaha. He's freakin' awesome... like in a clumsy, but hard working way awesome! I was so happy to see him take out the Jets on that final drive. The Jets offense was bad and you can't just blame Sanchez... they had no running game and the the most overrated OL in the league continues to look messy.

descendency
11-18-2011, 01:55 AM
I still can't believe he's 4-1 and he can barely throw the football.

TheFinisher
11-18-2011, 07:22 AM
He definitely looks more comfortable when he's out of the pocket running around playing schoolyard ball. He'll never be a traditional QB but at this point I don't think it matters, based on his recent success he's proving you don't HAVE to be a traditional QB to win in this league. Driving 95 yards to win the game against the Jets is no small feat, he deserves his props.

Nalej
11-18-2011, 07:50 AM
I give him being clutch. That defense is 4-1 though.

Paul
11-18-2011, 08:19 AM
I give him being clutch. That defense is 4-1 though.

Let's take a second and appreciate the beast that is Von Miller.

Shane P. Hallam
11-18-2011, 08:58 AM
You know who deserves credit? John Fox and Mike McCoy. They have really taylored this offense to Tebow now instead of trying to fit him into their system. Has it been perfect? No, but it has done better than trying to make him a pure pro style throw many times a game QB.

ViperVisor
11-18-2011, 09:24 AM
18 quarters pre Tebow
20.2 Points per game
29.8 Points allowed per game

22 quarters with Tebow
20.7 Points per game
20.5 Points allowed per game

and this new offense isn't helping the defense. They are not giving the ball away with turnovers but they are punting at pace that would be more than any team post inaugural Texans season in 2002.

nobodyinparticular
11-18-2011, 09:27 AM
this all sounds so shockingly similar to the vince young threads his rookie year...

Remember Kyle Orton getting like 13 wins or something ridiculous on his first season starting for the Bears? "He wins football games." It has come full circle now.

Shane P. Hallam
11-18-2011, 09:34 AM
18 quarters pre Tebow
20.2 Points per game
29.8 Points allowed per game

22 quarters with Tebow
20.7 Points per game
20.5 Points allowed per game

and this new offense isn't helping the defense. They are not giving the ball away with turnovers but they are punting at pace that would be more than any team post inaugural Texans season in 2002.

It's no better than Pre-Tebow, I concur. That being said, the fact that it isn't WORSE is a nice accomplishment, haha.

jrdrylie
11-18-2011, 09:39 AM
Remember Kyle Orton getting like 13 wins or something ridiculous on his first season starting for the Bears? "He wins football games." It has come full circle now.

10-5 in his first year starting. He then followed it up with 9-7. A lot of people bring up that he was pretty good with the Bears. But really his winning percentage was just average.

jth1331
11-18-2011, 09:42 AM
18 quarters pre Tebow
20.2 Points per game
29.8 Points allowed per game

22 quarters with Tebow
20.7 Points per game
20.5 Points allowed per game

and this new offense isn't helping the defense. They are not giving the ball away with turnovers but they are punting at pace that would be more than any team post inaugural Texans season in 2002.

Kyle Orton turnovers:
7 interceptions in 4 1/2 games, 2 fumbles

Tim Tebow turnovers:
1 interception and 1 fumble in 5 1/2 games

Don't think that has a difference on things?

Jughead10
11-18-2011, 09:46 AM
Kyle Orton turnovers:
7 interceptions in 4 1/2 games, 2 fumbles

Tim Tebow turnovers:
1 interception and 1 fumble in 5 1/2 games

Don't think that has a difference on things?

You can't throw interceptions when you dont throw the ball. Or when you are throwing balls 2 feet in the ground in front of your WR and the defender.

Sloopy
11-18-2011, 09:53 AM
You can't throw interceptions when you dont throw the ball. Or when you are throwing balls 2 feet in the ground in front of your WR and the defender.

Exactly Woody Hayes's mentality :) "when you throw the ball, three things can happen, and two of them are bad" /shameless Woody plug

In all seriousness though:
While your right about the reason for the interception #'s being down, does it really matter how you get them down? Your not throwing INTs

nepg
11-18-2011, 09:54 AM
It's no better than Pre-Tebow, I concur. That being said, the fact that it isn't WORSE is a nice accomplishment, haha.
The difference is top. With more focus on the running game, those unsuccessful drives are at least eating the clock and giving the defense time to recover

TimmG6376
11-18-2011, 09:55 AM
Not sure abut the Chargers, but this style will allow Minnesota to keep feeding AP all game and that will be bad news for Denver. Then they have Chicago and NE. The reality-check is coming.

Sloopy
11-18-2011, 10:00 AM
meh. he's just giving the ball away by failing to convert on third down, rather than by throwing it to the other team. i fail to see how having so few interceptions is really a point in his favor (presuming you've watched the games and the throws he's making).

I agree with you, what the other guy said more just reminded me of what Woody would say here.

I didn't get to watch the game last night as I don't get NFL network. From what has been said/clips I have seen though, it seems as though this is merely going to be a vehicle with which to get them through the season until they can get another QB in there.

though I would like to here your take, as the resident Broncos fan, on their draft situation/what you think they should do

Jughead10
11-18-2011, 10:00 AM
meh. he's just giving the ball away by failing to convert on third down, rather than by throwing it to the other team. i fail to see how having so few interceptions is really a point in his favor (presuming you've watched the games and the throws he's making).

Haha agreed. 5 possessions starting in Jets territory and 4 of them turned into punts.

Rob S
11-18-2011, 10:05 AM
meh. he's just giving the ball away by failing to convert on third down, rather than by throwing it to the other team. i fail to see how having so few interceptions is really a point in his favor (presuming you've watched the games and the throws he's making).

I mean, Tebow is clearly terrible, but punting is much better than throwing picks. Not turning it over give the defense a shot at least. If Tebow was throwing picks vs the Jets, they probably don't win the game due to field position.

Trogdor
11-18-2011, 10:09 AM
I mean, Tebow is clearly terrible, but punting is much better than throwing picks. Not turning it over give the defense a shot at least. If Tebow was throwing picks vs the Jets, they probably don't win the game due to field position.

Jets win if they don't do ANY of the following:

1) Let the Broncos defense score ANY points.
2) Not shank punts.
3) Don't break contain on run defense. It's the only way to get beat by Tebow other than a gut run.

I hate the Tebow hype. He's garbage lol. If the Broncos didn't have a legit defense he would be the sole focus of ineptitude by the media (Hi, my name is Mark Sanchez...).

nobodyinparticular
11-18-2011, 10:09 AM
Haha agreed. 5 possessions starting in Jets territory and 4 of them turned into punts.

It's this one right here that is the kicker. If Tebow ran a competent offense, you would expect no less than 20 points off 5 possessions in enemy territory. Two FGs and two TDs are solid expectations. You would HOPE for at least 24 points. Instead Denver got one score. But Tim Tebow is sure to lead them to the playoffs.

Jughead10
11-18-2011, 10:13 AM
It's this one right here that is the kicker. If Tebow ran a competent offense, you would expect no less than 20 points off 5 possessions in enemy territory. Two FGs and two TDs are solid expectations. You would HOPE for at least 24 points. Instead Denver got one score. But Tim Tebow is sure to lead them to the playoffs.

At the very least 13 points with a bad offense. Depending upon what side of the field you are on, one first down puts you in at least long FG range.

Sloopy
11-18-2011, 10:14 AM
It's this one right here that is the kicker. If Tebow ran a competent offense, you would expect no less than 20 points off 5 possessions in enemy territory. Two FGs and two TDs are solid expectations. You would HOPE for at least 24 points. Instead Denver got one score. But Tim Tebow is sure to lead them to the playoffs.

I was admittedly intrigued when I heard that the Broncos were running the triple option, was really upset I didn't get to watch the game. However, the more I hear the more I am starting to believe what has always been thought to be true, the offense just doesn't work in the pros.

murdamal86
11-18-2011, 10:28 AM
I was admittedly intrigued when I heard that the Broncos were running the triple option, was really upset I didn't get to watch the game. However, the more I hear the more I am starting to believe what has always been thought to be true, the offense just doesn't work in the pros.

Don't forget that Willis was hurt and Moreno is out too. If they can get a change of pace back in the option offense it could be effective...to a degree

Sloopy
11-18-2011, 10:33 AM
Don't forget that Willis was hurt and Moreno is out too. If they can get a change of pace back in the option offense it could be effective...to a degree

I could see it being effective enough to put them out of contention for a top QB every year (i.e. beating the teams they should beat) however I don't see them ever ascending to greatness with the system.

Monomach
11-18-2011, 10:40 AM
I don't know what game the media watched. In the one I saw, Tebow was garbage. Really, really horrible. It's like his mechanics have actually gotten worse the more he's played.

He was 9/20 and barely broke 100 yards. The Broncos ran for a total of 104 yards. The offense shouldn't be getting any credit for that win.

This guy is not going to be starting next year. You just know John Fox is already taking some long, hard looks at next year's first round QBs.

Sloopy
11-18-2011, 10:41 AM
I don't know what game the media watched. In the one I saw, Tebow was garbage. Really, really horrible. It's like his mechanics have actually gotten worse the more he's played.

He was 9/20 and barely broke 100 yards. The Broncos ran for a total of 104 yards. The offense shouldn't be getting any credit for that win.

This guy is not going to be starting next year. You just know John Fox is already taking some long, hard looks at next year's first round QBs.

Unfortunatly they are slowly putting themselves out of contention for the top guys though.

TimmG6376
11-18-2011, 10:42 AM
For it to be effective they have to keep the score close. Oakland is the best offensive team they've beaten in this stretch. They were without McFadden and 3 Carson Palmer INTs had a lot to do with that victory. Teams with effective offenses will make it a lot harder to play this time of possession game.

FUNBUNCHER
11-18-2011, 10:48 AM
It's a positive sign when Tebow can play a bad game by his standards and still win.
It seemed like he couldn't complete easy passes last night, throws he could make in his sleep at UF.

I agree with Steve Young, if the Broncos ever want Tebow to develop as a thrower, there needs to be more emphasis on the passing game.

Losing Josh Daniels was the worst event in Tebow's young career. I could see the through-line with Josh Daniels coaching Tebow where eventually he was going to develop into a decent NFL starter.

Now? Who knows??

Tebow is going to play the Broncos out of being able top draft one of the top QB prospects in the 2012 draft. I wonder if Denver brings in another vet FA or make a trade for another QB.

If I were Tebow I'd want out of Denver yesterday, professionally speaking.

ArkyRamsFan
11-18-2011, 10:49 AM
Exactly Woody Hayes's mentality :) "when you throw the ball, three things can happen, and two of them are bad" /shameless Woody plug


Actually, I believe that this quote was first attributed to Darryl Royal; though no doubt Woody Hayes was a major proponent of this philosophy also.

Sloopy
11-18-2011, 10:55 AM
Actually, I believe that this quote was first attributed to Darryl Royal; though no doubt Woody Hayes was a major proponent of this philosophy also.

I dunno, Hayes coached before Royal and had already coined his "three yards and a cloud of dust" offense.

some have attributed the quote to Rob Neyland although I don't believe that there is any documentation of this to support the claim.

but that neither here nor there

Sloopy
11-18-2011, 10:56 AM
he'd be welcome to it. there isn't another team in the league that's going to give a guy who's never made a real read in the passing game and who can't hit the broadside of a barn and who has some of the worst mechanics of any nfl qb ever a job. period. he'd be lucky to get picked up as a rusher only, at this point.

Yea I'd venture to say that Tebow's only shot is right now, if he doesn't make it with the Broncos he probably goes out of the league

(didn't want this bit to get page trapped):

I dunno, Hayes coached before Royal and had already coined his "three yards and a cloud of dust" offense.

some have attributed the quote to Rob Neyland although I don't believe that there is any documentation of this to support the claim.

but that neither here nor there

PoopSandwich
11-18-2011, 10:59 AM
I hope Tebow takes them to the playoffs and super bowl I would **** myself.

Sloopy
11-18-2011, 11:03 AM
I hope Tebow takes them to the playoffs and super bowl I would **** myself.

Playoffs maybe, doubt a SB. I could even see them being this years Seahawks and knocking someone off in the first round but not much more.

Speaking of their possible playoff birth, and out of curiosity:

over/under: 2 wins on their remaining schedule

jrdrylie
11-18-2011, 11:06 AM
Interesting look at the stats of Tebow and Elway in their first 8 starts.

Tebow:
Record: 5-3
Pass Yards: 1,281
TD-INT: 10-4
Rush Yards: 550
Rush TD: 5

Elway:
Record: 3-5
Pass Yards: 1041
TD-INT: 3-10
Rush Yards: 92
Rush TD: 1

In no way am I saying Tebow is good QB. But I do think that John Fox should open up the offense more and let Tebow sling it all around the field.

Jughead10
11-18-2011, 11:09 AM
It was a different game. Elway also didn't complete 60% of his passes on the season until year 11.

brat316
11-18-2011, 11:24 AM
Who saw Revis scared to tackle tebow?

Also is does this remind anyone of the VY just WINZZZZ.

Big Bird
11-18-2011, 11:48 AM
18 quarters pre Tebow
20.2 Points per game
29.8 Points allowed per game

22 quarters with Tebow
20.7 Points per game
20.5 Points allowed per game

and this new offense isn't helping the defense. They are not giving the ball away with turnovers but they are punting at pace that would be more than any team post inaugural Texans season in 2002.

Kyle Orton turnovers:
7 interceptions in 4 1/2 games, 2 fumbles

Tim Tebow turnovers:
1 interception and 1 fumble in 5 1/2 games

Don't think that has a difference on things?
On top of that, Tebow-led Broncos either win the TOP or keep it really close. The Broncos under Orton lost the TOP to the Pack by a decent amount, and the Chargers completely dominated that.

Tebow still has a ton of work to do as a passer. But if anybody did actually watch the game last night, they did start opening up the offense a lot more, and I saw some good things, granted they were small. The important thing though is they were a step in the right direction. He looked a lot more poise and comfortable under pressure. He was rolling out away from the pressure, and even stepped up into the pocket a few times to evade pressure and step up into the passing lane. He also improved at going through his progressions. His footwork is still sloppy though, the primary reason for his inaccuracy.

The Broncos are doing it right. His passing is still ugly, but they opened it up a slightly (ever so slightly) and they were some improvements (again, ever so slightly). They are giving their team a chance to win right now but adapt their offense to better fit Tebow. They are going to slower, but surely open up the offense more and more. Whether he succeeds or failure is another question.

Jughead10
11-18-2011, 12:00 PM
On top of that, Tebow-led Broncos either win the TOP or keep it really close. The Broncos under Orton lost the TOP to the Pack by a decent amount, and the Chargers completely dominated that..

2 minutes for every 3 and out. Maybe I get lucky and get one first down before I punt so the drive will take 4 minutes.

mqtirishfan
11-18-2011, 12:12 PM
On top of that, Tebow-led Broncos either win the TOP or keep it really close. The Broncos under Orton lost the TOP to the Pack by a decent amount, and the Chargers completely dominated that.


Meh, with the exception of the Chargers game, it's generally been pretty even for TOP no matter who is behind center for the Broncos, just like it's typically pretty even for any NFL team.

Big Bird
11-18-2011, 12:27 PM
Meh, with the exception of the Chargers game, it's generally been pretty even for TOP no matter who is behind center for the Broncos, just like it's typically pretty even for any NFL team.
The Packers game they were edged out about 33.5 to 26.5. It's not nearly as bad as the Chargers game, but it's still not good.

My point simply was with that that Orton starting, the Broncos got blown away one game in TOP and edged out by a decent amount in another. Tebow has either won the TOP for his team or kept it very close.

sbh15
11-18-2011, 12:27 PM
Playoffs maybe, doubt a SB. I could even see them being this years Seahawks and knocking someone off in the first round but not much more.

Speaking of their possible playoff birth, and out of curiosity:

over/under: 2 wins on their remaining schedule

i'm inclined to say over.

kansas city, san diego, and minnesota are all very winnable games. they almost came back to beat san diego the first time they played, minnesota sucks, and kc is now led by tyler palko. sprinkle in an upset against one of buffalo, new england, or chicago (most likely bet is buffalo) and they could go 4-2.

that's best case scenario, though. realistically, i'd pick them as favorites over minnesota and kansas city only. but if the defense keeps playing well and teams can't get a grip on the triple option, who knows.

also, in the event they finish something like 9-7 and potentially make the playoffs, does anyone think they make a run at one of jeff demps or chris rainey in the draft? both guys will be pretty well versed in this offense and i think if you put rainey in the role royal currently has, he could be a pretty big playmaker

Big Bird
11-18-2011, 12:33 PM
Buffalo is on the decline. I really can't see them stopping the Broncos rushing game or Von Miller from terrorizing Fitzpatrick.

I'll be at the game, so I'm just hoping for more Tebow magic.

CC.SD
11-18-2011, 12:37 PM
he'd be welcome to it. there isn't another team in the league that's going to give a guy who's never made a real read in the passing game and who can't hit the broadside of a barn and who has some of the worst mechanics of any nfl qb ever a job. period. he'd be lucky to get picked up as a rusher only, at this point.

Sorry NJ, just getting these Ws will result in Tebow holding down the QB1 spot for at least a couple seasons going forward.

Philliez01
11-18-2011, 01:29 PM
Tim Tebow isn't a good QB. I'm never a buyer into the "he just wins games" theory because most unorthodox things start out that way. The Wildcat, VY, Tebow, etc. all were unstoppable for a bit of time or so it seemed.

Now there was a drive (I think it was the one where he threw the heater to Decker but it bounced off him) during the game it looked like he was slightly more "progressed" as a QB. At least to me it seemed it looked like he did a read before throwing the low ball to Thomas (might be wrong on names). If Tim Tebow does a read that's just mindblowing within itself.

Tebow's work ethic is astounding I bet. Barring injury (or still two games in a row that looked like his Detroit debacle), he'll close out the season. The one thing to watch will be if he does slightly mature as a mental player. I counted at least a few times Decker or Thomas or Rosario looked open and Tebow just missed him or threw it 90mph by him. However, if he can go through his progressions that at least shows he's developing. I even thought he looked decent throwing that deep ball that was overthrown to Decker. He showed a tad bit of patience even though you knew he was going to throw it to him.

He's extraordinary at running the option due to his past experiences. But even if it's that good, eventually it'll be slowed down. Hell, after the first drive and with the exception of the last drive; it was contained.

Short-term, it's great for Denver fans that they are seeing their team win. As unorthodox/ugly/gross it looks, a W is still a W after all. I am rooting for Tebow because it just frankly blows my mind how this always happens.

SolidGold
11-18-2011, 01:42 PM
Who saw Revis scared to tackle tebow?

Also is does this remind anyone of the VY just WINZZZZ.

I mentioned this twice in the Gameday thread. Personally I thought it was great, showed that Revis was afraid to tackle Tebow and be physical. He may be a great cover corner but not being physical makes him drop a little in my book. Not mention the shots he took at Tebow and the Broncos option earlier in the week,

soybean
11-18-2011, 01:45 PM
I dont think this will work long term because sometime down the line he's going to be stuck in a shootout and I doubt they'd be able to keep up with how terribly he throws the ball.

Also, what'll happen when they're down 2 touchdowns or more, is he going to "wil" that team to a come from behind win? -_-

Look at who his four wins were against; his counterparts were: Matt Moore, Matt Cassel, Mark Sanchez, Carson Palmer.

murdamal86
11-18-2011, 02:19 PM
I dont think this will work long term because sometime down the line he's going to be stuck in a shootout and I doubt they'd be able to keep up with how terribly he throws the ball.

Also, what'll happen when they're down 2 touchdowns or more, is he going to "wil" that team to a come from behind win? -_-

Look at who his four wins were against; his counterparts were: Matt Moore, Matt Cassel, Mark Sanchez, Carson Palmer.

But according to everybody, Tebow's terrible and would never amount to anything so how is he winning

mqtirishfan
11-18-2011, 02:30 PM
But according to everybody, Tebow's terrible and would never amount to anything so how is he winning

A suddenly good defense and poor opponents?

Prowler
11-18-2011, 02:32 PM
Tim Tebow is so horrendous that his teammates play perfect football because they know that they must. He inspires greatness, then in the 4th quarter he feels guilty because he hasn't done ****. He then gives them one token drive and hopefully that's all the team needs to win the game.

With that said, I do love the Tebow 'brand' and hope that someday the light finally comes on and he becomes a better qb.

TimmG6376
11-18-2011, 02:38 PM
A suddenly good defense and poor opponents?

I think the poor opponents are making the defense look better than it is.

GB 49pts
SD 29pts
DET 45pts
OAK 24pts (despite 3 INTs by Palmer and no McFadden)

They give up points and yards to any offense worth a damn. They have some nice young players but as a unit they aren't all that good.

TimmG6376
11-18-2011, 03:08 PM
You watch them weekly so I'll have to take your word for it.

They have some opportunities coming up vs SD, CHI, and NE, to show how much they've improved.

jth1331
11-18-2011, 03:31 PM
I dont think this will work long term because sometime down the line he's going to be stuck in a shootout and I doubt they'd be able to keep up with how terribly he throws the ball.

Also, what'll happen when they're down 2 touchdowns or more, is he going to "wil" that team to a come from behind win? -_-

Look at who his four wins were against; his counterparts were: Matt Moore, Matt Cassel, Mark Sanchez, Carson Palmer.

lol at the bold.
He did it already, heck almost 3 times he came back from 10 or more points down to win. Almost being the San Diego game.

Shane P. Hallam
11-18-2011, 03:47 PM
I dont think this will work long term because sometime down the line he's going to be stuck in a shootout and I doubt they'd be able to keep up with how terribly he throws the ball.

Also, what'll happen when they're down 2 touchdowns or more, is he going to "wil" that team to a come from behind win? -_-

Look at who his four wins were against; his counterparts were: Matt Moore, Matt Cassel, Mark Sanchez, Carson Palmer.

So...basically, Florida QBs > USC QBs?

I mean Matt Moore IS from California as well...

Punisher
11-18-2011, 03:48 PM
So...basically, Florida QBs > USC QBs?

I mean Matt Moore IS from California as well...

So is Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers as far as being from California.

I hope Matt Barkley breaks this USC mold for QBs.

MI_Buckeye
11-18-2011, 03:55 PM
So...basically, Florida QBs > USC QBs?

I mean Matt Moore IS from California as well...

Yeah, he even started his college career at UCLA. In fact, all of the QBs Tebow has beaten so far played their prep ball in the LA area. LOL

Punisher
11-18-2011, 03:57 PM
Yeah, he even started his college career at UCLA. In fact, all of the QBs Tebow has beaten so far played their prep ball in the LA area. LOL

Well Sanchez and Palmer played in Orange County, but close enough. :)

Prowler
11-18-2011, 03:59 PM
City of the Angels

Bucs_Rule
11-18-2011, 07:27 PM
When an offense does much better in late drives to win games is it more clutch play or the style of offense they run with time running out? More likely the latter.

The final drive was mostly empty back-sets. The Broncos should do more of that throughout the game. Now they can't do that too much as Tebow would need breathers and not get too worn down for the end. Still should incorporate it more.

That's where his worth ethic really helps, his endurance would be great, which is needed when someone runs a fair bit.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-18-2011, 11:25 PM
18 quarters pre Tebow
20.2 Points per game
29.8 Points allowed per game

22 quarters with Tebow
20.7 Points per game
20.5 Points allowed per game

and this new offense isn't helping the defense. They are not giving the ball away with turnovers but they are punting at pace that would be more than any team post inaugural Texans season in 2002.

It's literally the opposite of what happened to Cutler as a rookie. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I think it was a touchdown more per game with Cutler at the helm, except we gave up 2 touchdowns more per game. Something ridiculous like that.

The Alex
11-19-2011, 12:49 AM
I post on another sports board and it was full of nothing but the most overreaction delusional responses imaginable after the Broncos/Jets game. Thank god this place has logic and reason.

Zycho32
11-19-2011, 01:01 AM
Yea I'd venture to say that Tebow's only shot is right now, if he doesn't make it with the Broncos he probably goes out of the league


Really only quoting this bit, as I find the idea to be utterly mind-[BLEEP]ing.

I find it that way only because it would mean Tebow lasted in the league in a shorter time than proven pariahs such as Jeff George, Ryan Leaf, and JaMarcus Russell, when there's universally no freaking reason for it to be this way.

What, you can be the spawn of the devil himself and still carve out a fair amount of years if you have a rocket arm, but mechanical flaws are a giant no-no to fix if you've got a good-to-great intangibles guy?

Mark my words; somebody else is going to pick up Tebow and try to build him up if he fails in Denver. A good number of somebodies. If only for the fact he seems to already have leadership (not that I'd know since I've never ever been an NFL player in my lifetime) and a high work ethic.

FUNBUNCHER
11-19-2011, 02:16 AM
Tebow doesn't have to become a great passer to be successful in the NFL. If he ever reaches 'average' and can throw 25-30 times a game completing close to 55-60%, I think he has enough going for him to win.

Sloopy
11-19-2011, 08:56 AM
Really only quoting this bit, as I find the idea to be utterly mind-[BLEEP]ing.

I find it that way only because it would mean Tebow lasted in the league in a shorter time than proven pariahs such as Jeff George, Ryan Leaf, and JaMarcus Russell, when there's universally no freaking reason for it to be this way.

What, you can be the spawn of the devil himself and still carve out a fair amount of years if you have a rocket arm, but mechanical flaws are a giant no-no to fix if you've got a good-to-great intangibles guy?

Mark my words; somebody else is going to pick up Tebow and try to build him up if he fails in Denver. A good number of somebodies. If only for the fact he seems to already have leadership (not that I'd know since I've never ever been an NFL player in my lifetime) and a high work ethic.

I don't see him starting anywhere, and he definitely wouldn't be a reliable backup. His only success has come from using a college offense which may not even work.

Why on earth would you wan't a back up QB that you would have to change your ENTIRE offensive system to accommodate should he come onto the field? Are you going to practice two DIFFERENT offensive systems in practice just in case? Is he going to "will" your team from the bench?

Most backups in this league right now are more progressed than Tebow as a passer. The MOST I see any team picking him up for is a wildcat QB but thats it.

Not to mention if Tebow fails as a QB here, he might decide to go heal aids patients in Africa with the word of the lord.

Prowler
11-19-2011, 01:20 PM
The Chargers should trade for him. They can try and harness the power of "winning" and "intangibles" that they are currently lacking. Plus it would keep the Broncos from magically lucking out with wins.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-19-2011, 07:10 PM
The Chargers should trade for him. They can try and harness the power of "winning" and "intangibles" that they are currently lacking. Plus it would keep the Broncos from magically lucking out with wins.

Hopefully we trade him for Rivers, because if we had him we wouldn't need luck to win.

Sloopy
11-19-2011, 09:50 PM
The Chargers should trade for him. They can try and harness the power of "winning" and "intangibles" that they are currently lacking. Plus it would keep the Broncos from magically lucking out with wins.

Luck>Magic>Tebow

Caulibflower
11-19-2011, 10:49 PM
The Broncos just draft Blake Bell in a couple years to be Tebow's backup and give him breathers. It'll be sweet.

Zycho32
11-19-2011, 11:49 PM
again, what team is itching to pick up a qb who hasn't had to make a read in his entire career, has terrible mechanics, and is nearly pathologically incapable of hitting a wide open receiver? some team will pick him up as a 2/3rd string guy, nothing more, if he fails in denver.

That's fair, and actually, that's what I would expect those teams to pick him up as; a backup with great intangibles who, with the right factors in place, could be built into something resembling a competent thrower to go along with the rest of his skills.

That said, the situation needs to be right; there needs to be an incumbent at the starting spot too good to be 'bullied' into replacing him with Tebow, and there needs to be some sort of QB Guru in the coaching staff who can work with him for whatever time is needed.

I mean, shoot, I can see Green Bay pick up Tebow as the #3 or #2 (depending on if Flynn is traded) and develop him on the bench and let him watch Rodgers and see what he does and maybe try something truly sick like have Rodgers and Tebow on the field at the same dang time in a sort of gimmick package. I can see that up until Tebow learns to become a fairly competent passer and Green Bay nets something good in a trade for him.

But the point is, he absolutely shouldn't be dropped right out of the NFL so quickly when worse people in general stick around for longer. At least with mechanics and play reading they can be taught and refined, but I've yet to see a cure for bad character issues.

Timbathia
11-20-2011, 04:29 AM
When an offense does much better in late drives to win games is it more clutch play or the style of offense they run with time running out? More likely the latter.

The final drive was mostly empty back-sets. The Broncos should do more of that throughout the game. Now they can't do that too much as Tebow would need breathers and not get too worn down for the end. Still should incorporate it more.

That's where his worth ethic really helps, his endurance would be great, which is needed when someone runs a fair bit.

Not so much endurance as risk. In the last quarter in close games Tebow will spread em out and run where the gap is. He will not last doing this for four quarters every game. The Broncos have to minimise his chances of getting hurt for the majority of the game, by running to the outside. Running inside is for TDs and last quarter magic, which is the main reason he has these sudden improvements.

Sloopy
11-20-2011, 07:43 AM
That's fair, and actually, that's what I would expect those teams to pick him up as; a backup with great intangibles who, with the right factors in place, could be built into something resembling a competent thrower to go along with the rest of his skills.

That said, the situation needs to be right; there needs to be an incumbent at the starting spot too good to be 'bullied' into replacing him with Tebow, and there needs to be some sort of QB Guru in the coaching staff who can work with him for whatever time is needed.

I mean, shoot, I can see Green Bay pick up Tebow as the #3 or #2 (depending on if Flynn is traded) and develop him on the bench and let him watch Rodgers and see what he does and maybe try something truly sick like have Rodgers and Tebow on the field at the same dang time in a sort of gimmick package. I can see that up until Tebow learns to become a fairly competent passer and Green Bay nets something good in a trade for him.

But the point is, he absolutely shouldn't be dropped right out of the NFL so quickly when worse people in general stick around for longer. At least with mechanics and play reading they can be taught and refined, but I've yet to see a cure for bad character issues.

Stop right there before this turns into a damn PACKERZZZ thread

Zycho32
11-20-2011, 08:52 AM
Stop right there before this turns into a damn PACKERZZZ thread

Sorry, using them as an example of a best-case scenario for a Second Chance. And I'm a Packer Fan.

Sloopy
11-20-2011, 09:05 AM
Sorry, using them as an example of a best-case scenario for a Second Chance. And I'm a Packer Fan.

Ha ha its ok man, I got what you meant, more just aimed at certain trolls whos name I shall not utter here for fear of their PACKERZZZ instincts going off

Razor
11-22-2011, 01:46 PM
This is sickening and actually a bit scary:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/22/tebow-to-plummer-ill-take-every-opportunity-to-praise-the-lord/

What a dick.

brat316
11-22-2011, 01:52 PM
Andy Reid could turn Tebow to average.

Reid somehow makes poop looks like gold, till he trades it to you for 2 picks and than it turns back into shiit.

VUBlacknGold
11-22-2011, 02:16 PM
This is sickening and actually a bit scary:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/22/tebow-to-plummer-ill-take-every-opportunity-to-praise-the-lord/

What a dick.

im confused.... whats sickening?

LonghornsLegend
11-22-2011, 02:40 PM
That he can't go two ******* minutes without mentioned that fake ****, that figment of his imagination. I'd bet that if an atheist did the equivalent people would freak out... I don't care if he's religious or not, so shut the **** up about it. We can't really discuss it on SWDC though, so in hindsight I probably shouldn't have mentioned. It just pissed me off...

U mad? Lol. Your the type of people who make a big deal out of it. He does say it a ton but who cares? Get over it. It's his belief, I hear him say it and move on. Is it really pushing you to the point of jumping off a bridge?

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 09:37 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82469a40/article/elway-clarifies-tebow-comments-again-hopeful-for-broncos-future?campaign=Twitter_features

It would be absolutely wonderful for the Denver Broncos and Denver Bronco fans if Tim Tebow could become that franchise guy

Seems as though Elway is being fairly noncommittal towards Tebow

Philliez01
11-23-2011, 11:12 PM
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82469a40/article/elway-clarifies-tebow-comments-again-hopeful-for-broncos-future?campaign=Twitter_features



Seems as though Elway is being fairly noncommittal towards Tebow

Seems about right though it sucks to be Tebow to a degree. I'd hate to hear that about me in the media but oh well, welcome to the NFL.

If Tebow could do anything other than complete a screen pass, do the option and scramble (and for whoever quotes me, I'm not counting winning); then it's in Elway's best long term plans to look for a QB.

I still think Tebow can progress but no one can say he's a franchise QB until he looks more like a QB. It's not a referendum on him but he's a good guy that has a lot of developing to do.

someone447
11-23-2011, 11:52 PM
This is sickening and actually a bit scary:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/22/tebow-to-plummer-ill-take-every-opportunity-to-praise-the-lord/

What a dick.

4th Commandment: Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

Tebow=Christian FAIL

Ravens1991
11-24-2011, 12:01 AM
4th Commandment: Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

Tebow=Christian FAIL



When the bible was written the sabbath day was Saturday so he isnt really sinning.

Abaddon
11-24-2011, 02:38 AM
When the bible was written the sabbath day was Saturday so he isnt really sinning.

>implying he didn't play college football on saturdays

VUBlacknGold
11-24-2011, 02:55 AM
4th Commandment: Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

Tebow=Christian FAIL

since when is him praising while playing a game for most of the day horrible? Im sure he does everything he needs to. He is keeping it holy as long as the praises of Him come out of his mouth. Thats it, im done

Abaddon
11-24-2011, 03:17 AM
This is sickening and actually a bit scary:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/22/tebow-to-plummer-ill-take-every-opportunity-to-praise-the-lord/

What a dick.

I dunno why Plummer was the one to say it, but I'm glad someone did.

Ness
11-24-2011, 03:32 AM
U mad? Lol. Your the type of people who make a big deal out of it. He does say it a ton but who cares? Get over it. It's his belief, I hear him say it and move on. Is it really pushing you to the point of jumping off a bridge?

As a fan it shouldn't bother anyone. Whether Tebow is a devoted Christian or atheist. I think it would be different if I knew Tebow personally and had to spend a lot of time around him and he kept talking about Jesus Christ and throwing his religion in my face, I might have a problem with that.

Sloopy
11-24-2011, 08:24 AM
Lets steer this back away from the whole Sabbath conversation guys. Need I not remind you of the boards commandments? :P

Sloopy
11-24-2011, 08:27 AM
he should be. until tim tebow shows that he can actually be a franchise qb, the front office *should* be questioning whether or not he can be.

I totally agree, I think Elway's ******** himself that they have actually played out of position for a top QB. I know you wan't to go BPA but even with that you may be playing your way into that second tier of prospects in the 1st round.

CJSchneider
11-24-2011, 09:45 AM
4th Commandment: Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

Tebow=Christian FAIL

That has nothing to do with what the average American considers work. PM me if you would like it explained. But to be brief, no, Tebow is not in violation of the 4th commandment.

kalbears13
11-26-2011, 11:45 PM
So I've come to realize that watching Tim Tebow play is exactly like playing madden...

...with Ethan Albright at QB.

Seriously, think about it.

FUNBUNCHER
11-27-2011, 08:52 PM
http://predominantlyorange.com/files/2010/11/Tebow.jpg


You believing the Broncos make the playoffs??
I'm leaning from impossible to slightly probable.

Ironically I think John Fox and ELway pulled Orton and started God's Other Son to shut fans up after they saw Tebow fail with their own eyes.

Tebow?? Fail?? Ha.

49erNation85
11-27-2011, 08:58 PM
Tebow and the Broncos put up a nice win today in SD ,however, SD is in a down fall know just sad .SD keeps getting overrated every year and expects them to be a SB team every year just sad.

Sloopy
11-27-2011, 09:51 PM
http://predominantlyorange.com/files/2010/11/Tebow.jpg


You believing the Broncos make the playoffs??
I'm leaning from impossible to slightly probable.

Ironically I think John Fox and ELway pulled Orton and started God's Other Son to shut fans up after they saw Tebow fail with their own eyes.

Tebow?? Fail?? Ha.

At this point I'm almost positive they make the playoffs but it won't be because of Tebow, it will be on the D

murdamal86
11-28-2011, 08:17 AM
At this point I'm almost positive they make the playoffs but it won't be because of Tebow, it will be on the D

True but the biggest thing I think Tebow should get credit for is only have ONE turnover in 236 touches this year. That's great and helps your team no matter how you slice it.

Sloopy
11-28-2011, 08:24 AM
True but the biggest thing I think Tebow should get credit for is only have ONE turnover in 236 touches this year. That's great and helps your team no matter how you slice it.

He also doesn't throw the ball a lot but yea it's never a bad thing to avoid turnovers I guess

Zycho32
11-28-2011, 11:03 AM
I have to admit, when I came home from work last night and read about ANOTHER comeback win for Denver- against a team with supposedly too much firepower to keep up with, I had a good laugh over the absurdity of it all.

And there's three more games of this 'Hades' stretch that is meant to break the Tebow myth. What happens if Denver manages to steal one more of those games and have a .500 record for that stretch? What happens if they win more than that?

Prowler
11-28-2011, 11:28 AM
Lol, this is what happens when a team trades a "franchise guy" qb and most of its established talent away. They get cursed with ugly wins and no real shot at a title or top talent.

Cutler, Marshall, and Hillis would have this team 13-3. A couple early losses because of D taking time to become this good.

With that said, I would love for Tebow to magically make it to the playoffs and Tebow a team there. It would be hilarious to see a team like New England get Tebow'd in the playoffs.

DraftSavant
11-28-2011, 11:50 AM
http://predominantlyorange.com/files/2010/11/Tebow.jpg


You believing the Broncos make the playoffs??
I'm leaning from impossible to slightly probable.

Ironically I think John Fox and ELway pulled Orton and started God's Other Son to shut fans up after they saw Tebow fail with their own eyes.

Tebow?? Fail?? Ha.

I honestly think that was the plan all along. You could just see the look of despair on his face as he fake clapped in the press box after the Jets game.

DraftSavant
11-28-2011, 12:33 PM
Lol, this is what happens when a team trades a "franchise guy" qb and most of its established talent away. They get cursed with ugly wins and no real shot at a title or top talent.

Cutler, Marshall, and Hillis would have this team 13-3. A couple early losses because of D taking time to become this good.

With that said, I would love for Tebow to magically make it to the playoffs and Tebow a team there. It would be hilarious to see a team like New England get Tebow'd in the playoffs.

I forgot what an awesome foundation the Broncos had on offense just a few seasons ago. Damn.

Sloopy
11-28-2011, 12:51 PM
meh. they needed to see what tebow had in games. orton was not and will never be any team's answer at qb.

further, this is denver; elway > tebow. as long as he pushes the worst passing qb in the nfl out for someone who can still win games, no one here will care for more than a week. outside of the morons in the springs, at least.

Off topic but was wondering if I could get your feed back on the Broncos in my mock, I know we had talked about some options

I gave you Lamar Miller at 21 and Ryan Tannehill at 52 using the BPA approach, just so happened you got a QB

Sloopy
11-28-2011, 01:15 PM
tannehill's a generally worthless pick for us at that point, even as a bpa, solely because we can't do anything with him. we're stuck running this zone-read garbage as long as tebow's the qb, since he's incapable of running anything remotely resembling an nfl offense, so tannehill would either be learning a system he'd never actually run, or we'd be unable to actually groom him to be a qb. pretending we just had orton/quinn, i wouldn't mind the pick as much, although i'm not real high on tannehill.

we've been back and forth on the broncos board on miller a bit. we generally agree that we need a rb and that we'll take one, but i'm not sure how many of us are that impressed with lamar as a runner (the comparison to tatum bell came up and seems relatively apt from what i've seen). i just don't think he projects out as the 20th (or whatever pick we had, i can't honestly remember) best player in the draft, though i could be way off.

I will definitely take this into consideration on my next mock I am not high on Tannehill either but by pick 50 something or other he was BPA and I thought "why not?" Might explore other options next time.

I have Miller in my top 15 talent-wise, not sure if he would be worth more than a high 2nd round pick but I imagine some team will grab him in the bottom of the first regardless. The offense does need some kind of spark though and I think Miller could be that guy.

jth1331
11-28-2011, 01:16 PM
Lol, this is what happens when a team trades a "franchise guy" qb and most of its established talent away. They get cursed with ugly wins and no real shot at a title or top talent.

Cutler, Marshall, and Hillis would have this team 13-3. A couple early losses because of D taking time to become this good.

With that said, I would love for Tebow to magically make it to the playoffs and Tebow a team there. It would be hilarious to see a team like New England get Tebow'd in the playoffs.

No, just no.
Moving Marshall was great as he is a huge distraction and not worth paying that amount of money for.
Hillis, what has he done this year?
Cutler I was never a fan of trading and think it was idiotic we forced him out, even with his stupid turnovers.

tannehill's a generally worthless pick for us at that point, even as a bpa, solely because we can't do anything with him. we're stuck running this zone-read garbage as long as tebow's the qb, since he's incapable of running anything remotely resembling an nfl offense, so tannehill would either be learning a system he'd never actually run, or we'd be unable to actually groom him to be a qb. pretending we just had orton/quinn, i wouldn't mind the pick as much, although i'm not real high on tannehill.

we've been back and forth on the broncos board on miller a bit. we generally agree that we need a rb and that we'll take one, but i'm not sure how many of us are that impressed with lamar as a runner (the comparison to tatum bell came up and seems relatively apt from what i've seen). i just don't think he projects out as the 20th (or whatever pick we had, i can't honestly remember) best player in the draft, though i could be way off.

No on taking a RB in round 1 unless we get Richardson and that won't happen now most likely.
I think the Broncos will be in a good position to get an ILB/CB to help that defense out even more.

Sloopy
11-28-2011, 01:20 PM
No on taking a RB in round 1 unless we get Richardson and that won't happen now most likely.
I think the Broncos will be in a good position to get an ILB/CB to help that defense out even more.

I don't think you can really ignore the offense here. The wagon is semi hitched to Tebow unfortunately but you need to find a way of generating something and Moreno/Mcgahee isn't the answer. At least Miller would be a stepping stone for the offense once the Tebow era ends (hopefully sooner rather than later)

Diehard
11-28-2011, 02:02 PM
I have Miller in my top 15 talent-wise, not sure if he would be worth more than a high 2nd round pick but I imagine some team will grab him in the bottom of the first regardless. The offense does need some kind of spark though and I think Miller could be that guy.

If you rate Miller that high, then the pick makes lots of sense. A home-run hitter at RB would be an excellent addition.

I think the Broncos will be taking an RB on draft day, but they can afford to be patient and see if a nice prospect slides down to them.

jth1331
11-28-2011, 02:11 PM
I don't think you can really ignore the offense here. The wagon is semi hitched to Tebow unfortunately but you need to find a way of generating something and Moreno/Mcgahee isn't the answer. At least Miller would be a stepping stone for the offense once the Tebow era ends (hopefully sooner rather than later)

No, you can't ignore the offense, but I don't see an offensive player they should take at that spot. Especially RB.
They need to take a RB, but I don't think they should spend a 1st. They could take Burfict in round 1 and round 2 take Polk.

Sloopy
11-28-2011, 02:13 PM
If you rate Miller that high, then the pick makes lots of sense. A home-run hitter at RB would be an excellent addition.

I think the Broncos will be taking an RB on draft day, but they can afford to be patient and see if a nice prospect slides down to them.

Yea I'd really like to see them maybe trade back and make the pick, maybe pick up an extra 3rd or something. There are also some nice RB like David Wilson and Chris Polk in later rounds. Depending on how you feel about him, Lamichael James is also an option

Prowler
11-28-2011, 02:18 PM
Never pay for a hooker when you can bang fat chicks for free. I guess they can be plain or normals too. At any rate, teams need production from RBs and can get that cheaper or for free later on. Ask Buffalo how they feel now about Spiller's speed.

*What I'm saying is use the pick on a premium position instead. Get some more secondary or line help.

Sloopy
11-28-2011, 02:35 PM
No, you can't ignore the offense, but I don't see an offensive player they should take at that spot. Especially RB.
They need to take a RB, but I don't think they should spend a 1st. They could take Burfict in round 1 and round 2 take Polk.

I'm assuming your referring to my mock with Burfict still on the board?

I seriously considered this but I wanted to go BPA and I have Miller slightly higher on my big board and again I REALLY wanted to give you offense.

So I guess I'll pose this question:

If the best available BPA on offense is Miller, do you go BPA on defense or do you trade back and grab Miller or the like later?

Caulibflower
11-30-2011, 01:12 AM
For fun, I took the stats from Tebow's first 9 starts and projected them over 16 games. Here is what it looks like:

10-6 W-L 180-380 47% 6.66 p.att 2531 yards 19 TD 7 INT

181 att 6.0 ypc 1095 yards 10 TD


You really hate seeing that high a percentage of pass plays result in no gain, but overall that looks like pretty solid production. That'd be a pretty good statistical resume.

(maybe even just as a running back...)

Vegas15
11-30-2011, 01:16 AM
For fun, I took the stats from Tebow's first 9 starts and projected them over 16 games. Here is what it looks like:

10-6 W-L 180-380 47% 6.66 p.att 2531 yards 19 TD 7 INT

181 att 6.0 ypc 1095 yards 10 TD


You really hate seeing that high a percentage of pass plays result in no gain, but overall that looks like pretty solid production. That'd be a pretty good statistical resume.

(maybe even just as a running back...)
We would be a top 3 seed with the best defense and the OPOY. Next year baby!

Philliez01
11-30-2011, 01:16 AM
Completion Percentage is a good stat but it's not the end all, be all.

To those who say "drops" look at all the catches Tebow's targets have to do. When do they, sans a deep-ball to Decker, truly get one in stride? It's either screen plays or balls that are under/overthrown that a wideout has to dive/leap for. That's part of being a WR/TE/HB but nonetheless, there's nary a pretty pass.

Tebow has done some decent things as a QB I think. I do think he tries to process a defense (which is like bare minimum of compliments) and I think he's trying his guts out.

He's awesome at improving for a couple more seconds out of the pocket but otherwise; he's got a long way to go.

FUNBUNCHER
11-30-2011, 06:11 AM
Tebow is a better passer than what he's shown so far. Florida Gators Tebow would kick Denver Broncos Tebow throwing the football.

They need to spoon feed him the passing offense and let him get more comfortable making reads and going through his progressions. All Tebow needs to do is develop into a barely average NFL passer and he'll be okay.

FUNBUNCHER
11-30-2011, 08:41 AM
Tebow has a good arm. There's nothing wrong with his arm strength and isn't the reason why he struggles going vertical.

hockey619
11-30-2011, 09:17 AM
he barely gets balls deep.

misquoting for the comedy of it. i have problems sorry

if it makes you feel better njx, your team has a FB masquerading as a QB, yet your team is 6-5 and is probably about to be 7-5.

My team was considered great at one time earlier this year, but now we're 6-5 (giants) and were about to be 6-6 because our team has completely quit and shows less emotion than tebow does while clipping his toe nails.

jth1331
11-30-2011, 09:46 AM
To those who say "drops" look at all the catches Tebow's targets have to do. When do they, sans a deep-ball to Decker, truly get one in stride? It's either screen plays or balls that are under/overthrown that a wideout has to dive/leap for. That's part of being a WR/TE/HB but nonetheless, there's nary a pretty pass.

Those drops are on throws every other QB in the league has to make. The Royal drop on the 3rd down play, Tebow threw it where he needed to throw it, and it hit Royal right in the numbers/hands and he dropped it. Yes, Royal sort of dove to his right, but that is a catch you make if you want to be a NFL WR.
He does throw some decent passes, people need to stop acting like every pass is a weak, sideways spinning ball thats tough to catch.

blah. tebow is the worst version of david carr passing. dump offs, short passes that his receivers do the work on, long passes that are generally so off the mark that the receiver has no chance to do anything with it, assuming he can even get his hands on it. again, if you've actually watched a broncos game, he's the worst starting passing qb in the league, and he's only slightly ahead of brady quinn as the worst passer in the league.

know why he looked ok in college? because he was in bloody college. he still had a limp arm, and piss poor accuracy, but when you can miss by 75 miles and still not come remotely close to hitting a db in the hands, you're going to look a lot better.

it's unbelievable to me how many people want to keep making these same tired, worthless excuses for him as a passer. he's simply bad at it. there's no part of passing that he does well. not a single one. his reads are usually awful. his footwork is terrible. his delivery is identical (in spite of his 'working on it' for the last year and a half). his arm strength would be laughable if chad pennington hadn't ever had shoulder surgery. and as a result of some combination of all of the above, combined with poor instincts in the passing game, his accuracy is mostly horrific.

let's all stop reading box scores, and actually watch a few plays, eh?

My gosh. I will first say yes Tebow has some work to do throwing, but he isn't that bad. He's extremely careful with the ball and doesn't want to make any mistake. His arm strength isn't that bad honestly.
And yes, for some reason Tebow's accuracy this year makes me wonder how he regressed so much from his Florida days til now. At Florida he wasn't missing wide open WR's by 5-10 yards.

jsagan77
11-30-2011, 11:36 AM
Tebow brings something to that team that elevates everyone to play better. Regardless of stats, he's winning and that should be all that matters, right?

jth1331
11-30-2011, 11:40 AM
it sort of does, and i've posted on the donkeys board that i'm ecstatic to have a team sort of worth rooting for again (we'll see how the rest of the seasons plays out). but it also feels a bit like when we were winning in spite of jake plummer and couldn't get past that bad qb hump.



yippee, 6 decent passes last week? props. he's a starting nfl qb. 'some decent passes' isn't and shouldn't be worthy of praise.



his arm strength is horrible. show a single throw he's made over 15 yards that wasn't basically a rainbow. he's thrown a single deep ball that hit his receiver in stride. he's underthrown decker roughly 85% of the time. his arm is awful.

i just don't understand this desperate need to make excuses for him.

The TD pass to Decker this past week was 18 yards and basically perfect, so there.
His arm isn't awful, its the accuracy he needs to tune up. It has gotten better but still needs massive work.

Nalej
11-30-2011, 12:02 PM
That's the thing about all this Tebow talk. The defense is playing lights out.
The D is allowing Tebow to do nothing for 55 minutes and go down and score in the last 5.
Kudos to Tebow for being able to come through when he needs to but if Tebow had the Pats D... hahahahaha... Brady Quinn might be starting by now

Sloopy
11-30-2011, 12:09 PM
Tebow brings something to that team that elevates everyone to play better. Regardless of stats, he's winning and that should be all that matters, right?

I think your mistaking the defense putting this team on their backs for some sort of Tebow magic making everyone play better.

Come on people, seriously? Rule out all logical explanations before assuming something extraordinary.

FUNBUNCHER
11-30-2011, 12:39 PM
So where was Denver's D when Orton was the starter??

Vegas15
11-30-2011, 12:51 PM
So where was Denver's D when Orton was the starter??On the field every play you troll!

Sloopy
11-30-2011, 12:55 PM
So where was Denver's D when Orton was the starter??

People have pointed to the lack of turnovers as a signal of Tebow's success (it's because he has few attempts per game) Turnovers put your D in a bad spot.

The lack of turnovers is by design (the Bronco's not making risky throws) and thus they are not putting their D in a bad spot. Also it is not unheard of for a D to get hot over the span of a season.

crossroads
11-30-2011, 01:13 PM
So where was Denver's D when Orton was the starter??

Well Champ Bailey missed a few games early in the year, D.J. Williams missed the first 4 games I believe, Elvis Dumervil had ankle and shoulder issues early in the year and missed a couple games, and Von Miller has simply gotten better and better throughout the season. Add in those three guys getting healthy, Miller becoming more beastly and you have them turning it around. Plus I'm sure changing to a completely new defense and defensive coordinator probably meant they needed a few weeks to gel and learn the system, especially with no real training camp

Raiderz4Life
11-30-2011, 01:15 PM
So where was Denver's D when Orton was the starter??

Its called getting healthy and gelling as a unit.

Complex
11-30-2011, 01:36 PM
Even now that they are "healthy", how many people actually thought they were this good? I mean who said when these guys are healthy they are a great unit? Everyone before thought the broncos D was going to suck.

I know a lot of you guys hate or don't like Tebow but lets give the guy some credit.

Diehard
11-30-2011, 01:39 PM
People have pointed to the lack of turnovers as a signal of Tebow's success (it's because he has few attempts per game) Turnovers put your D in a bad spot.

The lack of turnovers is by design (the Bronco's not making risky throws) and thus they are not putting their D in a bad spot. Also it is not unheard of for a D to get hot over the span of a season.

Yes, it's complementary football. Fox talked about that this week - what they are doing on offense is helping the defense, and vice versa.

Sloopy
11-30-2011, 01:51 PM
Even now that they are "healthy", how many people actually thought they were this good? I mean who said when these guys are healthy they are a great unit? Everyone before thought the broncos D was going to suck.

I know a lot of you guys hate or don't like Tebow but lets give the guy some credit.

The Bronco's aren't the first team to have a complete change around on defense in one season and they won't be the last.

It also helps that they switched from an offensive minded head coach to a defensive minded one

Raiderz4Life
11-30-2011, 01:59 PM
Even now that they are "healthy", how many people actually thought they were this good? I mean who said when these guys are healthy they are a great unit? Everyone before thought the broncos D was going to suck.

I know a lot of you guys hate or don't like Tebow but lets give the guy some credit.

The only credit he deserves is being a good leader and taking advantage late in the game of the position the defense puts them in. 90% of the credit would have to go to the defense. If there were giving up 20+ ppg they'd be losing.

Punisher
11-30-2011, 02:03 PM
I hope were able to retain Dennis Allen as our D Coordinator for awhile. He's a hell of an assistant, and will most likely be a great Head Coach for another team somewhere down the line.

FUNBUNCHER
11-30-2011, 03:05 PM
LOL!!

Tebow is in a no-win situation.
If the team loses games, it will be all his fault because he totally sucks.

But if they have a 5-1 record with Tebow at the helm, he's a non-entity who's benefiting from playing with a resurgent Broncos D.

Sloopy
11-30-2011, 04:46 PM
LOL!!

Tebow is in a no-win situation.
If the team loses games, it will be all his fault because he totally sucks.

But if they have a 5-1 record with Tebow at the helm, he's a non-entity who's benefiting from playing with a resurgent Broncos D.

I think that win or lose Tebow sucks so yea it kind of is this :P

There D has been winning them the games but when they finally lose it will be because the D couldn't hold back the flood long enough to keep it close enough for Tebow to mess up all game until the other teams D is worn down.

I mean if the D wasn't keeping these games close, and the other team was scoring 21 or more points a game; do you really think Tebow could lead them in an offensive battle?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: If your defense hold the other team to under 15 points, you better damn well win that game

Raiderz4Life
11-30-2011, 04:52 PM
Its kind of sad that the defense is totally undersold and being cast aside by this larger than life polarizing figure named Tim Tebow. Some how its..Tebow has won another game...Tebow has taken the Broncos to a 5-1 record...kinda ******** is that?? No...the Broncos defense has carried them to a 5-1 record.

Sloopy
11-30-2011, 04:53 PM
Its kind of sad that the defense is totally undersold and being cast aside by this larger than life polarizing figure named Tim Tebow. Some how its..Tebow has won another game...Tebow has taken the Broncos to a 5-1 record...kinda ******** is that?? No...the Broncos defense has carried them to a 5-1 record.

Even worse... a true future star on the team, Von Miller, is taking a back seat to a stop gap QB who is in place until someone better comes around

Prowler
11-30-2011, 04:56 PM
You guys do realize that the Broncos will probably magically win this week right? And Tebow will not be effective in the first half, but I think he'll go on a streak in the 4th and end up with a couple TD passes. It will add more fuel to the fire and this debate will never end. Probably end up something like 12-22 190 Yards 2 Tds 0 Int 64 Rushing.

BaLLiN
11-30-2011, 05:06 PM
LOL!!

Tebow is in a no-win situation.
If the team loses games, it will be all his fault because he totally sucks.

But if they have a 5-1 record with Tebow at the helm, he's a non-entity who's benefiting from playing with a resurgent Broncos D.

Looking at the teams the Broncos have faced it is hard to tell if the Broncos D is actually doing well or if they are benefitting from facing offenses that are struggling and without key players.

The only team that they played that had a prolific offense was Detroit IMO, and that game was 45-10. Otherwise:

Miami- Chad Henne injured, Matt Moore and Reggie Bush weren't as effective as now.
Oakland- Darren McFadden injured, Carson Palmer just starting
Kansas City- Matt Cassel got injured during the game, and they were in shambles without Charles this season.
NY Jets- Mark Sanchez is terrible
San Diego- Phillip Rivers is playing injured, but the defense did play very well in this game.
Min- Rookie QB, inconsistent receivers, Adrian Peterson might not play.

Tebow not giving up turnovers and prolonging drives is helping his defense rest and not allowing opposing offenses to get on a roll, but Detroit showed that Tebow is ineffective because he is not equipped to come back from a significant margin or keep up with a prolific offense.

Denver's defense is playing well against average and inconsistent offenses.

DraftSavant
11-30-2011, 05:13 PM
Njx, why do our teams hate us?

Raiderz4Life
11-30-2011, 05:17 PM
You guys do realize that the Broncos will probably magically win this week right? And Tebow will not be effective in the first half, but I think he'll go on a streak in the 4th and end up with a couple TD passes. It will add more fuel to the fire and this debate will never end. Probably end up something like 12-22 190 Yards 2 Tds 0 Int 64 Rushing.

Think the Broncos will be missing Von Miller...so we'll see how big an impact his absence will have on that defense.

BaLLiN
11-30-2011, 05:29 PM
Think the Broncos will be missing Von Miller...so we'll see how big an impact his absence will have on that defense.

he's not ruled out just yet...

Prowler
11-30-2011, 05:32 PM
I think Dumervil is back in top form and should help mask the loss.

Diehard
11-30-2011, 05:32 PM
The only credit he deserves is being a good leader and taking advantage late in the game of the position the defense puts them in. 90% of the credit would have to go to the defense. If there were giving up 20+ ppg they'd be losing.

That "taking advantage late in the game" is a pretty valuable commodity. Tebow has been clutch in the crunch, whereas Orton seemed to always fail under pressure.

Our OL deserves a nod as well, especially the young guys who have really picked up their game since Tebow took the helm.

Overall, it's not any one thing. It's how these pieces are working together. There's no question that Tebow gets too much of the hype/credit, but that's the nature of the business (e.g. Mark Sanchez was a media darling despite being probably the weakest part of that team).

Vox Populi
11-30-2011, 06:02 PM
Honestly, people aren't just ignoring the defense and Von Miller anymore. 3 weeks ago, yeah, but not anymore (unless you're just talking to your ******** fantasy football friends and your dad who saw the highlights before the monday night game or some crap like that). Every single discussion about the Broncos is talking heads just saying "hes winning games, I don't know how and he really needs to improve, but you can't argue about the results I guess." They aren't really shlicking all over him or anything, and then once they're done talking about Tebow, they say "but lets not forget to talk about that defense, oh man they're playing lights out right now, and that Von Miller, oh man, that kid is the real deal." Yeah, they aren't giving Miller as much attention, but thats not as interesting to talk about for people that have to cover 32 teams and all the stories that come with the NFL each and every week. The haters that get mad on the internet just make the situation sound worse than it actually is.

Prowler
11-30-2011, 06:29 PM
http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/318972-tim-tebow-pro-bowler?xid=cnnbin



08:04 AM ET 11.30 | Go ahead and laugh. Scorn, scoff, sneer and snicker, but Tim Tebow the Hybrack may very well play in the Pro Bowl. ... Pro Bowl selection is based on ballots cast by fans through Dec. 19 at NFL.com, and votes from players and coaches Dec. 21-22. Each group's results count one-third toward the players picked in both conferences. Because of his legions of loyalists, Tebow already was in the fans' top five before the Broncos' victories over the Jets and the Chargers. ... [Tom Brady] and [Ben Roethlisberger], as they should, will place 1-2 overall in the combined three voting classes. The AFC's third Pro Bowler remains a mystery.

The Denver Post

in case you want to vote, you can vote here.

http://www.nfl.com/probowl/ballot?module=HP11_content_stream_voting_probowl

Crazy_Chris
11-30-2011, 07:12 PM
http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/318972-tim-tebow-pro-bowler?xid=cnnbin



in case you want to vote, you can vote here.

http://www.nfl.com/probowl/ballot?module=HP11_content_stream_voting_probowl

It's going to be ridiculous, but Tebow is going to make the Pro Bowl considering the AFC QBs haven't exactly played great so far this year(Aside from brady).

jsagan77
12-01-2011, 03:19 AM
I think your mistaking the defense putting this team on their backs for some sort of Tebow magic making everyone play better.

Come on people, seriously? Rule out all logical explanations before assuming something extraordinary.

So it's just a weird coincidence that the D was worse prior to Tebow taking over? Could it be because they believe in him and they want to try their hardest for him? This isn't Madden, these are real people with real emotions that can fire for any number of reasons. If you all think they played this hard or this well prior to Tebow taking the reigns then I'll beg to differ.

Prowler
12-01-2011, 06:13 AM
Brady or Roethlisberger will end up in the Super Bowl too, so another spot will open up.

Sloopy
12-01-2011, 06:38 AM
So it's just a weird coincidence that the D was worse prior to Tebow taking over? Could it be because they believe in him and they want to try their hardest for him? This isn't Madden, these are real people with real emotions that can fire for any number of reasons. If you all think they played this hard or this well prior to Tebow taking the reigns then I'll beg to differ.

IIRC, most of the team was against Tebow taking over at QB. Your right though it's probably not them getting healthier or them gelling as a unit or the lack of turnovers, all mor likely scenarios; it's probably the least likely scenario: Tebow is just willing them to win

jsagan77
12-01-2011, 08:03 AM
IIRC, most of the team was against Tebow taking over at QB. Your right though it's probably not them getting healthier or them gelling as a unit or the lack of turnovers, all mor likely scenarios; it's probably the least likely scenario: Tebow is just willing them to win


How do you know what the players were thinking? I didn't hear them say anything negative. They may have said positives about Orton but that doesn't mean they didn't want Tebow.

And I guess it's just a strange coincidence that all those things started happening once Tebow took the reigns? Why is it so hard for people to believe that one guy can be such an inspiration to his teammates that his presence alone makes them play at another level?

It makes much more sense that his D plays harder because of belief that Tebow is capable of winning them games when it matters rather than a bunch of other things coming together at the exact same time just because.

jsagan77
12-01-2011, 08:59 AM
no, it doesn't. if you'd read upthread, it makes much more sense that we finally got healthy, our youngest players are playing better every single week, and we're playing terrible offenses lately. why are you pushing this weird belief that tebow, and his complete inability to score points, is somehow inspiring the defense? if anything, no one on the defense knows if the next field goal they might allow will be three points too many for the offense to overcome.

I guess I'll ask why you and every other Denver fan fails to credit Tebow for willing that team to victory? We all know he's a WIP at QB, but FFS he's 5-1 this year with 3 4th quarter comebacks, 11 TD's and 1 INT and w/o him rising to the occasion time and time again you guys would be looking at a top 5 draft pick instead of a possible playoff birth. It's not like the defense is playing like the Bears D when they had Grossman at QB. They aren't scoring a ton of points... They're holding teams under a certain point total yes but Tebow is the one putting them ahead when it matters and last I checked they play every minute of those 4 quarters so what Tebow does for the first 3 and a half quarters shouldn't undersell what he does in the most critical part of the game. I mean would John Elway be in the HOF w/o all his epic comebacks? Not saying Tebow is the QB Elway is but he's got that "it" factor and the fact you guys are in denial about it is crazy. Haters gonna hate I guess....

Sloopy
12-01-2011, 10:18 AM
I guess I'll ask why you and every other Denver fan fails to credit Tebow for willing that team to victory? We all know he's a WIP at QB, but FFS he's 5-1 this year with 3 4th quarter comebacks, 11 TD's and 1 INT and w/o him rising to the occasion time and time again you guys would be looking at a top 5 draft pick instead of a possible playoff birth. It's not like the defense is playing like the Bears D when they had Grossman at QB. They aren't scoring a ton of points... They're holding teams under a certain point total yes but Tebow is the one putting them ahead when it matters and last I checked they play every minute of those 4 quarters so what Tebow does for the first 3 and a half quarters shouldn't undersell what he does in the most critical part of the game. I mean would John Elway be in the HOF w/o all his epic comebacks? Not saying Tebow is the QB Elway is but he's got that "it" factor and the fact you guys are in denial about it is crazy. Haters gonna hate I guess....

Tebow couldn't make the fourth quarter comebacks if the D wasn't holding the other team to under 15 points.

If Tebow was good and could score TD on a regular basis the team wouldn't have to come back with that D holding them to 15 points.

What do you think Tim Tebow has to do with motivating players who make milions of dollars? This isn't college or high school; the players are motivated to do well because it determines the monetary income which they will receive.

This is like saying that your boss really isn't competent enough to do his job but is a good guy so thats why you go in and bust your ass at work every day to make up for his shortcomings. No, you go in and work hard so you get payed, don't get fired, and maybe, just maybe get a raise at the end of the year.

FUNBUNCHER
12-01-2011, 10:26 AM
Totally agree. Motivation is overrated in the NFL. There's no emotion at all. Xs and Os all day.

http://helmet2helmet.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/jim-caldwell.jpghttp://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/23.jpg


THe NFL is like chess, but with real people.

jsagan77
12-01-2011, 10:37 AM
So millionaire players aren't driven to win? They are motiveless? I bet Brady and Billicheck would beg to differ with you. Vince Lombardi would too... I guess Ray Lewis never motivated that vaunted Ravens D filled with millionaires? Joe Gibbs didn't motivate 3 teams with different QB's to championships. I guess all these players just play for a paycheck and that's it? None of them want to win a Superbowl or make it to the playoffs? They just show up to collect a paycheck and otherwise are emotionless robots with no human factor whatsoever?

Teams and players overachieve all the time because of the same principles you're dismissing. I can't believe someone would ever dismiss one persons ability to raise the level of play of an entire team. It's probably one of the biggest and most common factors in all of sports... It's probably the main thing that separates the good from the bad, and make the good, great. No matter what level of sports, people are competitors (aside from certain physical freaks that don't have to try). If not, they shouldn't (and probably wouldn't) be there.

The principle is simple... The Defense plays harder to keep point totals down because they believe that given the opportunity, Tim Tebow will deliver a victory. And why not? He's only proven to be able to do it in almost every game this season. The only people that don't see it are the Denver fans that "watch" more than everyone else....

Tebow couldn't make the fourth quarter comebacks if the D wasn't holding the other team to under 15 points.

If Tebow was good and could score TD on a regular basis the team wouldn't have to come back with that D holding them to 15 points.

What do you think Tim Tebow has to do with motivating players who make milions of dollars? This isn't college or high school; the players are motivated to do well because it determines the monetary income which they will receive.

This is like saying that your boss really isn't competent enough to do his job but is a good guy so thats why you go in and bust your ass at work every day to make up for his shortcomings. No, you go in and work hard so you get payed, don't get fired, and maybe, just maybe get a raise at the end of the year.

jsagan77
12-01-2011, 11:14 AM
seriously? you're going to keep pushing the fact that the team is being willed to victory, even and especially the defense, in spite of the fact that you haven't seen a single game and thus don't have the faintest clue what you're talking about? that's seriously the road you want to go down? ******* brilliant. the nfl board just gets worse every bloody day.

Who said I haven't seen a single game?

Anytime someone doesn't agree with you turn into a diva... You're consistently on the other side of a middle of the road argument and you think you have the right to judge the NFL board like you're some know it all guru? Get off your soap box... There's no right or wrong answer here--it's a debate.

Edit "Good Job Deleting my Rep Points too... Classy act"

Philliez01
12-01-2011, 11:37 AM
Man, I can't even imagine how ugly Tebow's high fives are in comparison to his throwing motion. Probably takes him 4 seconds to get there.

Sloopy
12-01-2011, 12:00 PM
Totally agree. Motivation is overrated in the NFL. There's no emotion at all. Xs and Os all day.

http://helmet2helmet.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/jim-caldwell.jpghttp://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/23.jpg


THe NFL is like chess, but with real people.

Exactly, it's extremely difficult to motivate millionaires. Some coaches can do it, some can't. If a coach can't what makes you think Tebow can?

Sloopy
12-01-2011, 12:05 PM
So millionaire players aren't driven to win? They are motiveless? I bet Brady and Billicheck would beg to differ with you. Vince Lombardi would too... I guess Ray Lewis never motivated that vaunted Ravens D filled with millionaires? Joe Gibbs didn't motivate 3 teams with different QB's to championships. I guess all these players just play for a paycheck and that's it? None of them want to win a Superbowl or make it to the playoffs? They just show up to collect a paycheck and otherwise are emotionless robots with no human factor whatsoever?

Teams and players overachieve all the time because of the same principles you're dismissing. I can't believe someone would ever dismiss one persons ability to raise the level of play of an entire team. It's probably one of the biggest and most common factors in all of sports... It's probably the main thing that separates the good from the bad, and make the good, great. No matter what level of sports, people are competitors (aside from certain physical freaks that don't have to try). If not, they shouldn't (and probably wouldn't) be there.

The principle is simple... The Defense plays harder to keep point totals down because they believe that given the opportunity, Tim Tebow will deliver a victory. And why not? He's only proven to be able to do it in almost every game this season. The only people that don't see it are the Denver fans that "watch" more than everyone else....

All of these players/coaches also were great at what they did, Tebow is not.

I'm just saying, you have to look to the most likely possibility before you look to the idea that the defense is vicariously playing well because of Tebow willing them to do so.

Could it be possible? Sure. It's just that there are other more likely scenarios considering the circumstances.

FUNBUNCHER
12-01-2011, 12:11 PM
This isn't an astro physical debate that can be proven with objective fact. In 'this' debate we're arguing opinions at best.

Either you believe Denver is winning in spite of Tebow, or because of him. Or somewhere in between.
Don't be so quick to be personally offended because someone disagrees with you.

You are kinda quick to drop the hammer when the rabble offend your football sensibilities. Chill out.

DraftSavant
12-01-2011, 12:22 PM
This isn't an astro physical debate that can be proven with objective fact. In 'this' debate we're arguing opinions at best.

Either you believe Denver is winning in spite of Tebow, or because of him. Or somewhere in between.
Don't be so quick to be personally offended because someone disagrees with you.

You are kinda quick to drop the hammer when the rabble offend your football sensibilities. Chill out.

I've said all along, I'm glad to not be personally invested in the Tebow thing, because I can watch it will equal parts amusement and utter confusion.

I'm quite certain that Tim Tebow is a troll placed on earth by the football gods in order to torment football fans and analysts for taking this sport and ourselves way too seriously.

Trollbow>

FUNBUNCHER
12-01-2011, 12:26 PM
Exactly, it's extremely difficult to motivate millionaires. Some coaches can do it, some can't. If a coach can't what makes you think Tebow can?

When vets like Brian Dawkins and Champ Bailey who don't eat bull **** talk about the kid having something different about him, or when I hear Tebow giving pre game speeches quoting Proverbs, 'As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another,' I think there might be some 'We are SPARTA!!', us against the world , positive brainwashing going on the the Broncos lockerroom.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2009/writers/andy_staples/01/09/tebow.title/t1_tebowyell.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fTT9xlgZ9CU/R1CQr0qG_1I/AAAAAAAAB2k/8qP-PJNIXO0/s1600-R/Leonidas1.jpg

someone447
12-01-2011, 12:52 PM
Maybe the defense is playing better as a direct result of Tebow playing--because they run the ball every play. If I'm not mistaken Denver's time of possession has leapt from 30th when Orton was starting to 5th when Tebow was.

That makes an incredible amount of difference in points allowed. So Tebow's inability to throw, rather than his ethereal "intangibles" or "motivation" is what has caused the defense's points allowed to drop so dramatically.

I'm sure them getting healthy also plays a major role--but motivation is severely overrated. You do not make the NFL(or stay in, in the case of JaMarcus Russell) if you are not already tremendously motivated. Every player in the league is incredibly competitive and does not want to lose, that is how they got to where they are at.

Denver Bronco56
12-01-2011, 12:56 PM
First of all Tebow is having an impact on the game, plain and simple he is playing smart football if you look at his % of touches to TD if i recall its the highest in the NFL, he isnt turning the ball over and is able to keep defenses on their toes due to his threat to run.. which is helping mcgahee tear it up.

I will agree the D is playing out of their minds.. GREAT. But if Tebow was throwing INT's like orton was they wouldnt be near as rested and fresh as they are when tebow and mcgahee are running all over teams..

He might not be "lighting it up" but he is not turning the ball over, the team is running great and keeping the Defense rested... he is getting better and so is the Defense i cant understand why people fail to understand he is going to get better passing the more he works on it... Human beings get better at things the more they do it, Tebow is no exception

Denver Bronco56
12-01-2011, 12:58 PM
Maybe the defense is playing better as a direct result of Tebow playing--because they run the ball every play. If I'm not mistaken Denver's time of possession has leapt from 30th when Orton was starting to 5th when Tebow was.

That makes an incredible amount of difference in points allowed. So Tebow's inability to throw, rather than his ethereal "intangibles" or "motivation" is what has caused the defense's points allowed to drop so dramatically.

I'm sure them getting healthy also plays a major role--but motivation is severely overrated. You do not make the NFL(or stay in, in the case of JaMarcus Russell) if you are not already tremendously motivated. Every player in the league is incredibly competitive and does not want to lose, that is how they got to where they are at.


How they got here was talent, the difference between winning and losing is being motivated.. the difference between being decent, good, great or a bust is motivation


If Dawkins, or Ray lewis dont "motivate" people around them..and Tebow also then we must being watching different games because i know for sure people around those players are hyped, and know the other 10 players have their backs

Prowler
12-01-2011, 01:00 PM
Honestly, it hasn't changed TOP at all. He has too many 3 and outs to have an impact on time of possession. The biggest thing he brings to the table is lack of interceptions.

I do believe that NFL players are spiritual or at least superstitious. He may be a rallying symbol, but he isn't necessarily the cause for the change.

Halsey
12-01-2011, 01:06 PM
If the triple option stops being effective for the Broncos, there's an easy solution: THE QUADRUPLE OPTION! OMFG UNSTOPPABLEZZ!

someone447
12-01-2011, 01:07 PM
How they got here was talent, the difference between winning and losing is being motivated.. the difference between being decent, good, great or a bust is motivation


If Dawkins, or Ray lewis dont "motivate" people around them..and Tebow also then we must being watching different games because i know for sure people around those players are hyped, and know the other 10 players have their backs

No, the talent level of the team is what determines winning and losing. The better team wins the vast majority of the games. If you are not already self motivated no one will be able to motivate you. Motivation does play a big role, but it is self-motivation. The type of motivation needed needs to come from inside oneself. Tebow is not willing the Broncos to wins. He is winning games by playing smart football and doing it within his skill set.

I'm not arguing that Tebow doesn't play a huge role in the Broncos recent success. I am just pointing out that one man does not change the culture of a locker room. Tebow has just put them in a better position to win than did Orton. He doesn't turn the ball over, and since they run on nearly every play they control the clock much better than they did with Orton.

There is no magic "intangible" that Tebow has and no one else possesses, and it is ridiculous to make the argument otherwise.

someone447
12-01-2011, 01:10 PM
According to ESPN the Broncos have jumped 25 sports in TOP since Tebow took over.

http://frontrow.espn.go.com/2011/11/numbers-never-lie-tim-tebow/

Oakland is probably not the best example due to the fact that they thrive on their running game also.

Even a 3 and out with 3 straight runs takes a minute and a half off the game clock.

Denver Bronco56
12-01-2011, 01:17 PM
Im not saying that Tebow is the only one with the "magic quality" but if you are telling me there is no such thing as being able to motivate someone... then you my sir have never heard a motivational speech, heard someone talk to you that inspired you, or have heard of other's doing this.. so taking in account you live under a rock and dont talk or hear of people with the quality to motivate i will show you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZaGh6HIZ0c

i actually think this video is perfect since it brings up multiple people with this "magical quality"

And i dont think everyone is capable of motivating men, it takes someone with the "magical ability"

someone447
12-01-2011, 01:23 PM
Im not saying that Tebow is the only one with the "magic quality" but if you are telling me there is no such thing as being able to motivate someone... then you my sir have never heard a motivational speech, heard someone talk to you that inspired you, or have heard of other's doing this.. so taking in account you live under a rock and dont talk or hear of people with the quality to motivate i will show you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZaGh6HIZ0c

i actually think this video is perfect since it brings up multiple people with this "magical quality"

I am saying that in order to be in the NFL--one of the absolute best in the world at what you do--you have to be incredibly self motivated. You do not make it to the top of your profession(which the NFL obviously is) without an inner fire that is constantly burning. NFL players already have the intense motivation they need--otherwise they wouldn't be in the NFL or last through a single training camp. Tebow has not magically pumped up the Broncos team. They are not playing harder for him. The team is playing better because of him, because he brings a skill set that fits tremendously well with what John Fox wants to do and with how the team is built. But it is not him "willing" the team to win.

someone447
12-01-2011, 01:25 PM
I would be willing to bet that the younger posters on this board are the ones who are saying Tebow has "willed" the Broncos to victory.

Prowler
12-01-2011, 01:35 PM
Broncos vs whoever Time of Possession by game
27-32
30-30
29-31
27-33
20-40-Tebow entered the game
34-33-Tebow's 1st start, Dolphins Game
30-30
32-28
34-26-Kansas City game and the first and only game TOP really favors them
28-32
37-37

ESPN is just making ******** up now

TOP with Tebow is a myth

Sloopy
12-01-2011, 01:44 PM
Maybe the defense is playing better as a direct result of Tebow playing--because they run the ball every play. If I'm not mistaken Denver's time of possession has leapt from 30th when Orton was starting to 5th when Tebow was.

That makes an incredible amount of difference in points allowed. So Tebow's inability to throw, rather than his ethereal "intangibles" or "motivation" is what has caused the defense's points allowed to drop so dramatically.

I'm sure them getting healthy also plays a major role--but motivation is severely overrated. You do not make the NFL(or stay in, in the case of JaMarcus Russell) if you are not already tremendously motivated. Every player in the league is incredibly competitive and does not want to lose, that is how they got to where they are at.

Exactly, the offense helping the defense is by design only. Not turning the ball over and letting them rest is aiding the D tremendously.

You could put me in the game and I would hand off every time, as long as we didn't turn the ball over and sustained drives; it would help the D. Does this mean that I am willing the team to win or motivating my teammates to do so? no.

Sloopy
12-01-2011, 01:46 PM
How they got here was talent, the difference between winning and losing is being motivated.. the difference between being decent, good, great or a bust is motivation


If Dawkins, or Ray lewis dont "motivate" people around them..and Tebow also then we must being watching different games because i know for sure people around those players are hyped, and know the other 10 players have their backs

So if I'm more motivated than these players because I'll get payed for one game, more than I will make this year... I will be the best player on the field... got it


If the triple option stops being effective for the Broncos, there's an easy solution: THE QUADRUPLE OPTION! OMFG UNSTOPPABLEZZ!


... my god... they would need... quadruple teams to stop it...

someone447
12-01-2011, 01:54 PM
Broncos vs whoever Time of Possession by game
27-32
30-30
29-31
27-33
20-40-Tebow entered the game
34-33-Tebow's 1st start, Dolphins Game
30-30
32-28
34-26-Kansas City game and the first and only game TOP really favors them
28-32
37-37

ESPN is just making ******** up now

TOP with Tebow is a myth

So, crunching the numbers(and taking out the game Tebow entered since that is an obvious outlier and am not sure who to give that to) the Broncos controlled the clock for 47.67% of the game while Orton was the QB. Since Tebow became the QB they have controlled the clock for 51.18% of the time. That is a pretty big difference in football. I would venture a guess that ESPN was correct in 51.18 TOP being 5 best in the league.

Crazy_Chris
12-01-2011, 02:04 PM
Broncos vs whoever Time of Possession by game
27-32
30-30
29-31
27-33
20-40-Tebow entered the game
34-33-Tebow's 1st start, Dolphins Game
30-30
32-28
34-26-Kansas City game and the first and only game TOP really favors them
28-32
37-37

ESPN is just making ******** up now

TOP with Tebow is a myth

BSPN really found something they could twist to look amazing in favor of Tebow. The T.O.P. is pretty much the same, the only difference is Tebow got to play in 2 overtime games which added about 10 extra mins to hiis total.

So, crunching the numbers(and taking out the game Tebow entered since that is an obvious outlier and am not sure who to give that to) the Broncos controlled the clock for 47.67% of the game while Orton was the QB. Since Tebow became the QB they have controlled the clock for 51.18% of the time. That is a pretty big difference in football. I would venture a guess that ESPN was correct in 51.18 TOP being 5 best in the league.

9:43 in overtime T.O.P. makes it look a lot better.

jrdrylie
12-01-2011, 02:05 PM
So, crunching the numbers(and taking out the game Tebow entered since that is an obvious outlier and am not sure who to give that to) the Broncos controlled the clock for 47.67% of the game while Orton was the QB. Since Tebow became the QB they have controlled the clock for 51.18% of the time. That is a pretty big difference in football. I would venture a guess that ESPN was correct in 51.18 TOP being 5 best in the league.

Actually 9th. 51.18% of TOP comes out to 30:42. Cincinnati and Carolina are just behind at 30:39.

someone447
12-01-2011, 02:06 PM
BSPN really found something they could twist to look amazing in favor of Tebow. The T.O.P. is pretty much the same, the only difference is Tebow got to play in 2 overtime games which added about 10 extra mins to hiis total.

Look at my post above it. 47.67% compared to 51.18%. That is a pretty big difference.

Crazy_Chris
12-01-2011, 02:12 PM
Look at my post above it. 47.67% compared to 51.18%. That is a pretty big difference.

If that includes the overtime it isn't a good comparison to Ortons T.O.P.

someone447
12-01-2011, 02:20 PM
If that includes the overtime it isn't a good comparison to Ortons T.O.P.

It is a percentage of the time played. It doesn't matter if it includes overtime or not. If I said that with Tebow they average 33 minutes a game while with Orton they averaged 28 minutes a game it would be disingenuous, but since I used a percentage of time played the disparity in times doesn't really matter(other than both of them being a small sample size and the possibility that there is sampling error and given enough time they would both regress towards the mean.)

My math is correct, as is my statistical analysis. Whether that is the difference in the points allowed by the defense is open to debate. But the numbers are not. I am simply pointing out that this is probably more important than some sort of intangible that Tebow alone possesses.

Sloopy
12-01-2011, 02:22 PM
If that includes the overtime it isn't a good comparison to Ortons T.O.P.

I have to disagree, I can't believe I'm about to give Tebow credit (however so mild). Why isn't it a good comparison? It's time on the field. Do stats not count in overtime?

Vegas15
12-01-2011, 02:35 PM
As long we get the win, all of your points are pointless and asinine.

Crazy_Chris
12-01-2011, 02:38 PM
I have to disagree, I can't believe I'm about to give Tebow credit (however so mild). Why isn't it a good comparison? It's time on the field. Do stats not count in overtime?

If orton had played in Overtime 2 games aswell it would be fine but he didn't.

It is a percentage of the time played. It doesn't matter if it includes overtime or not. If I said that with Tebow they average 33 minutes a game while with Orton they averaged 28 minutes a game it would be disingenuous, but since I used a percentage of time played the disparity in times doesn't really matter(other than both of them being a small sample size and the possibility that there is sampling error and given enough time they would both regress towards the mean.)

My math is correct, as is my statistical analysis. Whether that is the difference in the points allowed by the defense is open to debate. But the numbers are not. I am simply pointing out that this is probably more important than some sort of intangible that Tebow alone possesses.

It's fine if you took that percentage out of 74:29 for his game against SD, and 67:36 for Miami instead of 60 mins

Prowler
12-01-2011, 02:52 PM
So, crunching the numbers(and taking out the game Tebow entered since that is an obvious outlier and am not sure who to give that to) the Broncos controlled the clock for 47.67% of the game while Orton was the QB. Since Tebow became the QB they have controlled the clock for 51.18% of the time. That is a pretty big difference in football. I would venture a guess that ESPN was correct in 51.18 TOP being 5 best in the league.

That's ridiculous. He had one fluke game out of 5 and that's what's skewing the totals. Look at that those numbers and nobody can tell me that Tebow magically is improving the TOP. ESPN is just messing with numbers based on two fluke games.

Take out the two outlier games
-13 in 4 games without Tebow
+1 in 5 games with Tebow

Tebow gives the Broncos a competitive advantage of +1min over their opponents. Big deal. Even with heavy scheme in his favor, he only "wins" the argument by 1 minute.

*I don't give a flying crap about how bad Orton was at game management and nobody should either in this evaluation. It's Tebow vs his competition.

someone447
12-01-2011, 03:01 PM
If orton had played in Overtime 2 games aswell it would be fine but he didn't.



It's fine if you took that percentage out of 74:29 for his game against SD, and 67:36 for Miami instead of 60 mins

Yes, I took it out of the total time played, not out of 60 minutes.

Raiderz4Life
12-01-2011, 03:03 PM
As long we get the win, all of your points are pointless and asinine.

Quote of the week??

someone447
12-01-2011, 03:08 PM
That's ridiculous. He had one fluke game out of 5 and that's what's skewing the totals. Look at that those numbers and nobody can tell me that Tebow magically is improving the TOP. ESPN is just messing with numbers based on two fluke games.

Take out the two outlier games
-13 in 4 games without Tebow
+1 in 5 games with Tebow

Tebow gives the Broncos a competitive advantage of +1min over their opponents. Big deal. Even with heavy scheme in his favor, he only "wins" the argument by 1 minute.

*I don't give a flying crap about how bad Orton was at game management and nobody should either in this evaluation. It's Tebow vs his competition.

It is a comparison between the Orton led Broncos and the Tebow led Broncos.

Broncos with Tebow 12 seconds a game more TOP than the other team.
Broncos with Orton 4 minutes and 15 seconds a game LESS TOP than the other team.

That is a very large swing. This debate has to do with why the Broncos defense has played better with Tebow as QB than it did with Orton. My argument is that the TOP appears as if it has played a pretty damn big role in that. And that it is not some mythical intangible that Tebow has that has willed the Broncos defense to play out of there mind.

I understand the TOP is simply one variable among many, but it sure seems to me a more likely culprit then Tebow willing the defense to play lights out.

Vegas15
12-01-2011, 03:15 PM
Quote of the week??
I consider it an honor.

Prowler
12-01-2011, 03:17 PM
I see it, but its useless. A TOP of +1 vs your opponent doesn't help with winning because their defense is only resting a min less than the Bronco's. All it shows is how bad Kyle Orton was at staying on the field.

Vegas15
12-01-2011, 03:18 PM
But for real, our success in a statistical anomaly, that and our defense is sweet. You guys are over evaluating something explained just as easily if not more so by observing we're just executing.

someone447
12-01-2011, 03:20 PM
I see it, but its useless. A TOP of +1 vs your opponent doesn't help with winning because their defense is only resting a min less than the Bronco's. All it shows is how bad Kyle Orton was at staying on the field.

Yes. What the conversation was about was how many less points per game the Broncos defense has given up since Tebow began starting. I'm saying that the TOP differential has played a big role, not that Tebow is making the TOP hugely lopsided in the Broncos favor. He is just bringing it to slightly in the Broncos favor, up from significantly against the Broncos. And that difference has played a bigger role in the improvement of the Broncos defense then some magical idea of Tebow having intangibles that wills the Broncos defense to play lights out.

someone447
12-01-2011, 03:22 PM
But for real, our success in a statistical anomaly, that and our defense is sweet. You guys are over evaluating something explained just as easily if not more so by observing we're just executing.

That's exactly it. The Broncos are playing better now then they were with Orton, and it is because Tebow has been playing within the confines of his skill set and John Fox's offense. That has led to the Broncos defense needing to be on the field a lot less--which has allowed them to show just how damn good they actually are.

Denver Bronco56
12-01-2011, 04:46 PM
So if I'm more motivated than these players because I'll get payed for one game, more than I will make this year... I will be the best player on the field... got it





... my god... they would need... quadruple teams to stop it...


That is not it at all, you do not have NFL talent... they do they have the talent to be there... there are people in the NFL that obviously have the talent but then have the ability to motivate others... people call this being a leader, motivator what ever you want to call it some have this quality, most dont

You dont have to be motivated to be elite at what you do, Jamarcus Russel was an elite talent...but had NO MOTIVATION hence why he didnt workout and gained weight, and eventually talent only took him so far and was cut


you can get by on talent only so far, to actually be good/great at what you do you need motivation and some people can bring the best out of others...

EVERYONE one in the NFL is talented, the players that stand out are the ones putting in more work and are dedicated to what they do

Timbathia
12-01-2011, 04:50 PM
Main reasons the Broncos defense is playing better than the start of the year:

- Players are healthy
- New DC has gotten into a groove/players are starting to understand how the new DC want them to play
- The teams we have been playing are extraordinarily bad on offense, partly due to injuries or QB changes

Secondary reason:
- Defensive guys are probably playing slightly harder for every play than usual knowing they need to help a poor offense.

Denver Bronco56
12-01-2011, 04:56 PM
Im not saying the reason is ONLY tebow.. but tebow is playing and putting us in better situations than Orton