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Complex
11-22-2011, 03:11 PM
Kyle Orton is done in Denver.

Orton, the quarterback who was handed the Broncos’ starting job in training camp only to lose it to Tim Tebow after five games, has been waived today, an NFL source told ESPN’s Adam Schefter.

The move comes as a surprise, but maybe it shouldn’t: Tebow has solidified his hold on the starting job, and if the Broncos wanted to get a look at another quarterback later in the year, it would probably be Brady Quinn, not Orton. So if Orton isn’t going to play — and isn’t in the team’s long-term plans — why keep him on the roster and pay him another $2.5 million just to stand on the sideline holding a clipboard for six more weeks?

Where it gets interesting is that Orton now becomes available to any team that wants to put in a waiver claim for him. The Chicago Bears, who traded Orton to Denver for Jay Cutler, would have to strongly consider claiming Orton now that they’re in the midst of a playoff race and Cutler is nursing a broken thumb.

The Texans and Chiefs, both of whom also have playoff hopes and also have injured quarterbacks, would have to consider Orton as well.

- Profootballtalk

Smart move by the Broncos knowing that a couple teams really need a QB right now.

cmarq83
11-22-2011, 03:16 PM
Wow I did not see that one coming. He's probably better than 1/3 of the starters in the league right now. He might be worth a look for a team like Houston. It's a tough time to get released though. Not too many teams looking for starters at this junction.

49erNation85
11-22-2011, 03:19 PM
Why would you not see this coming ? Orton just sucks at Denver. Tebow proved the point each time Tebow replaced him brought in wins. They did it early this season now they are looking at play offs. Orton just needs a new team.

Raiderz4Life
11-22-2011, 03:22 PM
DA BEARS!!!

Would be kinda funny if it happened.

Ness
11-22-2011, 03:22 PM
I wonder if Chicago has already contacted him.

Jimmy
11-22-2011, 03:25 PM
- Profootballtalk

Smart move by the Broncos knowing that a couple teams really need a QB right now.

Conversely, Denver may have actually hurt their chances of winning their games vs KC and Chicago now. Teams that were quarterbackless now may have their guy. Sadly, this is a move that could have been made much later.

There are rumblings that Denver wanted to protect its practice squad QB, Adam Weber. I don't buy into those, but I do believe that Kyle asked for a trade again and that we essentially granted that.

RaiderNation
11-22-2011, 03:25 PM
Texans or Bears are the favorites. Wouldn't be surprised to see him go to Houston who's 7-3 and looking like they will win the AFC South.

Timbathia
11-22-2011, 03:34 PM
Conversely, Denver may have actually hurt their chances of winning their games vs KC and Chicago now. Teams that were quarterbackless now may have their guy. Sadly, this is a move that could have been made much later.

There are rumblings that Denver wanted to protect its practice squad QB, Adam Weber. I don't buy into those, but I do believe that Kyle asked for a trade again and that we essentially granted that.

Yeah, it seems that the Broncos are just being "nice" to Orton by giving him a chance to pick up with a team in desperate need of a QB (despite it not really being in the Broncos best interests).

BeerBaron
11-22-2011, 03:43 PM
OrtOn...

Chicago runs a completely different system since he was last here, so I have doubts we go after him.

He'd probably be a better option in Houston than Jeff Garcia though...He'd obviously start behind Leinart but in Leinart struggles, he could probably be inserted in a few weeks.

Jvig43
11-22-2011, 03:43 PM
- Profootballtalk

Smart move by the Broncos knowing that a couple teams really need a QB right now.

How is this a smart move? Am I missing something? When did charity become a smart move for a team? Why would you just waive him when a team may try trading a low round pick for him? Where is the smart move in this for the Broncos?

soybean
11-22-2011, 03:44 PM
I still think it's pretty shady how the Broncos went from Orton to Tebow completely bypassing Brady Quinn who was #2 on the depth chart.

Now I'm not stating Quinn is any good but why even have him on your roster if you have no intention of even letting him compete.

Jughead10
11-22-2011, 03:44 PM
How is this a smart move? Am I missing something? When did charity become a smart move for a team? Why would you just waive him when a team may try trading a low round pick for him? Where is the smart move in this for the Broncos?

Because they can get someone to pick up the 2.5 million dollars. Save a little bit of money. We're well past the trade deadline. Who knows how much they shopped him back then, if at all.

Jvig43
11-22-2011, 03:46 PM
Because they can get someone to pick up the 2.5 million dollars. Save a little bit of money. We're well past the trade deadline. Who knows how much they shopped him back then, if at all.

Ok money wise yes that makes sense, the wayhe said it may it sound like it was a smart move for them to drop him so a team that needs a qb could pick him up.

BeerBaron
11-22-2011, 03:46 PM
I still think it's pretty shady how the Broncos went from Orton to Tebow completely bypassing Brady Quinn who was #2 on the depth chart.

Now I'm not stating Quinn is any good but why even have him on your roster if you have no intention of even letting him compete.

Quinn might be worse than Tebow. You'd be getting the same ****** play minus the inexplicable wins.

Brady Quinn is a terrible, terrible QB. He completely forgot how the game of football even works between Notre Dame and the pros.

SolidGold
11-22-2011, 03:46 PM
How is this a smart move? Am I missing something? When did charity become a smart move for a team? Why would you just waive him when a team may try trading a low round pick for him? Where is the smart move in this for the Broncos?

Not really a smart move at all. They could have at least moved him in preseason for a 3rd or 4th rounder. It looks like Elway blew this one IMO. I am sure Orton will get picked up right away - he has to go through the waiver process so who knows if he even gets a chance to be picked up by the Texans or Bears.

soybean
11-22-2011, 03:48 PM
Quinn might be worse than Tebow. You'd be getting the same ****** play minus the inexplicable wins.

Brady Quinn is a terrible, terrible QB. He completely forgot how the game of football even works between Notre Dame and the pros.

he was still number 2 on the depth chart.

BeerBaron
11-22-2011, 03:48 PM
Let's settle this once and for all.

Kyle Orton has no experience in Mike Martz's system. We're far more likely to sign JT O'Sullivan than Kyle Orton. The <1% chance it actually does happen would be because of some kind of attachment JA/Lovie has. And considering they already traded him once, I doubt that happens.

Raiderz4Life
11-22-2011, 03:50 PM
he was still number 2 on the depth chart.

Doesn't matter....no one cares. Only time ppl would care if is Tebow had passed Hoyer or Flynn or something in the depth chart. Not Brady Quinn.

Complex
11-22-2011, 04:01 PM
How is this a smart move? Am I missing something? When did charity become a smart move for a team? Why would you just waive him when a team may try trading a low round pick for him? Where is the smart move in this for the Broncos?

What Jughead said and If I remember right Orten is a free agent after this season.

Jvig43
11-22-2011, 04:03 PM
What Jughead said and If I remember right Orten is a free agent after this season.

Yeah I thought you meant what I posted earlier, in which case I misunderstood what you were saying.

diabsoule
11-22-2011, 04:04 PM
A sleeper team to pick him up might be the Chiefs. Tyler Palko is wretched, Cassel is on IR.

BeerBaron
11-22-2011, 04:05 PM
Washington is also being tossed around. He can go take Rex's job again.

Trogdor
11-22-2011, 04:11 PM
Interesting. I don't think Chicago would even be interested but waaay too many teams with higher waiver priority.

KC or Washington would be where I would place my bet.

Jughead10
11-22-2011, 04:14 PM
I think they didn't want to do this early in the year because it doesn't send a good message to other players on the team. Going into the season with Orton instead of Tebow at QB at least gives the team the impression that they are trying to win games. At 1-4 it's a little different. Either way they knew the whole time their future QB is and still isn't on the team currently.

shylo3716
11-22-2011, 04:25 PM
Denver = Matt Barkley? Landry Jones? RG3?

iowatreat54
11-22-2011, 04:27 PM
A sleeper team to pick him up might be the Chiefs. Tyler Palko is wretched, Cassel is on IR.

Oh ye of little faith in Americanzi and the Stanzi City Chiefs. Ricky will get his chance and unleash the fury of America on the NFL. He only didn't play last night because he couldn't bring himself to do it vs. a team named the Patriots.

vidae
11-22-2011, 04:31 PM
^ lol

And I don't see us in the running for Orton. It makes no sense. We're not going to win any more games with Orton than we would have with Cassel and we're definitely not winning our division with our schedule.

niel89
11-22-2011, 04:43 PM
he was still number 2 on the depth chart.

Actually Quinn and Tebow were Co #2 on the depth chart. They were legit listed with a slash and at the same level.

vidae
11-22-2011, 04:51 PM
Jay Glazer reporting the Bears and/or the Chiefs could put in claims. God no why, why why why why why.

edit: Eh, thinking about it, Orton could be a veteran backup for us next year to backup the drafted QB! Hooray!

Diehard
11-22-2011, 04:51 PM
^ lol

And I don't see us in the running for Orton. It makes no sense. We're not going to win any more games with Orton than we would have with Cassel and we're definitely not winning our division with our schedule.

I agree. Orton to KC = Chiefs throwing away 2.5 million.

diabsoule
11-22-2011, 04:58 PM
As nip pointed out in the Free Agency thread, the Redskins could be a sleeper team. Grossman and Beck aren't getting it done. Orton could fit Shanny's system

Diehard
11-22-2011, 04:58 PM
Denver = Matt Barkley? Landry Jones? RG3?

Elway and Xanders were at the OU / Baylor game, so they are definitely shopping. Will they buy? Who knows.

On the other hand, if Old Man Bowlen has his way, then Denver = Tebow

J-Mike88
11-22-2011, 05:04 PM
The Chiefs will claim him.
If the Texans don't have faith in Leinart, they might.

vidae
11-22-2011, 05:06 PM
I didn't think that this season could get any more depressing but if we claim Kyle ******* Orton then it will hit an all time low as a Chiefs fan. Can it just be January already?

shylo3716
11-22-2011, 05:08 PM
Elway and Xanders were at the OU / Baylor game, so they are definitely shopping. Will they buy? Who knows.

On the other hand, if Old Man Bowlen has his way, then Denver = Tebow

This move right here just made it 110% official they will take a QB in the draft.

Diehard
11-22-2011, 05:16 PM
This move right here just made it 110% official they will take a QB in the draft.

IIRC, Orton and Quinn were both going to be FA's anyway... so chances were pretty good that we'd be getting a QB somewhere in the draft.

To me, this move just confirms they are going to stick with Tebow for the rest of the season (which was pretty obvious anyway).

vidae
11-22-2011, 05:19 PM
This move right here just made it 110% official they will take a QB in the draft.

Or they could be doing their due diligence when it comes to the draft, like most teams do.

shylo3716
11-22-2011, 05:23 PM
I like Landry to Denver now.

Nikolas
11-22-2011, 05:25 PM
I could see the Texans picking him up off waivers in case Leinart can't get the job done. Orton behind the Texan's O-Line might be a much better QB than in Denver.

MasterShake
11-22-2011, 05:26 PM
Dumb move by the broncos....

You keep Orton as a vet backup this year and let him leave next year for a possible 3rd round compensatory pick. They basically traded a 3rd rounder for 2.5 mill in the owners pocket...thats not a winning football move.

jackalope
11-22-2011, 05:26 PM
Let's settle this once and for all.

Kyle Orton has no experience in Mike Martz's system. We're far more likely to sign JT O'Sullivan than Kyle Orton. The <1% chance it actually does happen would be because of some kind of attachment JA/Lovie has. And considering they already traded him once, I doubt that happens.

Vaughn McClure of the Chicago Tribune reporting that the Bears will attempt to claim Orton.

Flyboy
11-22-2011, 05:41 PM
Vaughn McClure of the Chicago Tribune reporting that the Bears will attempt to claim Orton.

Shows what BeerBaron knows... ;)

BeerBaron
11-22-2011, 05:56 PM
Whatever. I don't dislike Orton, but it baffles me that Martz isn't demanding someone familiar with his system. We put up with that Todd Collins BS because Martz couldn't possibly teach his complicated system to Cutler and Hanie at once.

jth1331
11-22-2011, 06:02 PM
Orton blows and playing in Chicago he could set the record for sacks in a season playing only a handful of games.
He is a guy who absolutely needs fantastic production and a fantastic running game to be average.

soybean
11-22-2011, 06:06 PM
Orton blows and playing in Chicago he could set the record for sacks in a season playing only a handful of games.
He is a guy who absolutely needs fantastic production and a fantastic running game to be average.

I'm just going to assume you mean protection.

shylo3716
11-22-2011, 06:10 PM
Would be a damn shame to see not 1, but 2 Denver QBs end up in Chicago.

bearfan
11-22-2011, 06:12 PM
Whatever. I don't dislike Orton, but it baffles me that Martz isn't demanding someone familiar with his system. We put up with that Todd Collins BS because Martz couldn't possibly teach his complicated system to Cutler and Hanie at once.

I love Orton, been his biggest fan, BUT if we play him over Hanie it would be a travesty. Orton does NOT know the system, whereas Hanie does. That was the whole reason we brought in Todd Collins (as you said). It is time that Hanie gets a shot rather than to be discarded by Martz yet again. If he had no faith in Hanie, I am sure that he could have gotten SOME Qb who is an overall better QB than Hanie and taught him the system.

SolidGold
11-22-2011, 08:56 PM
Let's settle this once and for all.

Kyle Orton has no experience in Mike Martz's system. We're far more likely to sign JT O'Sullivan than Kyle Orton. The <1% chance it actually does happen would be because of some kind of attachment JA/Lovie has. And considering they already traded him once, I doubt that happens.

looks like Orton pushed for his release after the Cutler injury: http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19391873

I really doubt he makes it to the Bears through the waiver wire - KC, Indy, Colts and possibly Redskins could pick him up. It will be interesting to see if the Bears do put a claim in for him.

I think the Bears should just go with Hanie and lean on Forte but this Orton thing is interesting to ponder until we find out who actually signs him.

49erNation85
11-22-2011, 09:52 PM
The Colts don't want him . They would rather suck it for Luck. KC I think has there other dude Pailko (sp) who seems pretty good Monday. Only true spots are Miami , Bears and maybe Houston .

SolidGold
11-23-2011, 07:56 AM
The Colts don't want him . They would rather suck it for Luck. KC I think has there other dude Pailko (sp) who seems pretty good Monday. Only true spots are Miami , Bears and maybe Houston .

Miami won't take him, they have to be pleased with Moore's performance. The Texans seem to back Leinart fully, I would trust Kubiak's instincts. The whole purpose of playing is not for draft position, it is to win games - Orton provides an upgrade over anyone on the Colts roster at the position. The Redskins and Chiefs should also consider him. IMO if one of these teams does not see him as an upgrade to their current situation they are not really trying to provide their respective fan bases with the best chance to win.

I'm not saying Orton is a franchise savior but when he played in Chicago, they were a pretty run heavy team and he did his best to limit his mistakes. He also has experience playing in a wide open spread offense so I would say he could pick up any playbook due to his past experience.

The Chiefs are not out of the playoff race in the AFC West. Palko is not going to help their chances, Stanzi is a long term development prospect. Orton knows the AFC west, this would make sense. The Redskins are a run heavy team, Orton could come in and be instantly better than Grossman or Beck. The Colts should pick him up (I would argue that they should be mandated to as ridiculous as that sounds but no team should just be allowed to tank a season for a chance at a player in the upcoming draft). I don't care what Reggie Wayne says about Painter knowing the system - that did not produce any wins and now I believe they are going to start Dan Orlovsky.

Grizzlegom
11-23-2011, 08:01 AM
I wouldn't mind if Miami claimed him. $2M for a proven backup that will probably get you a 4th or 5th round comp pick after someone signs him in the offseason? I'll take it.

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 08:35 AM
ESPN reporting that the Bears have put in a claim

Razor
11-23-2011, 08:44 AM
ESPN reporting that the Bears have put in a claim
Wouldn't be surprised if the Dolphins, Chiefs or Indy all put in a claim as well.. Lot's teams need a QB these days it seems. Seattle could be a dark horse maybe.

BeerBaron
11-23-2011, 08:49 AM
I'm still a little surprised by our interest. I won't be real upset if we get him as the only way he'll play is if Hanie gets hurt or really sucks.

Martz must not have a say in the matter is all I can figure. JA and Lovie must still have a bit of an attachment.

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 09:13 AM
Wouldn't be surprised if the Dolphins, Chiefs or Indy all put in a claim as well.. Lot's teams need a QB these days it seems. Seattle could be a dark horse maybe.

Undoubtedly, Chiefs would be insane not to claim him, Palko isn't getting them anywhere and that division is still up for grabs

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 09:16 AM
http://twitter.com/#!/mortreport/status/139359146700054528

Orton tells other teams not to claim him

SolidGold
11-23-2011, 09:48 AM
http://twitter.com/#!/mortreport/status/139359146700054528

Orton tells other teams not to claim him

LOL...that is pretty funny. I would say it's a first in NFL history.

SFbear
11-23-2011, 09:54 AM
http://twitter.com/#!/mortreport/status/139359146700054528

Orton tells other teams not to claim him

But...why? Why wouldn't he want to go to the Chiefs or Texans? He's not going to be guaranteed a starting position and Forte, Hester, and a crappy Oline are the only common denominators between the offense he played in and the current one. Fans weren't that friendly to him while he was here either.

My only guess is that he's just looking for an opportunity to get close enough to Jerry Angelo punch him in the balls for trading him and then immediately retire.

vidae
11-23-2011, 10:22 AM
Undoubtedly, Chiefs would be insane not to claim him, Palko isn't getting them anywhere and that division is still up for grabs

We have the toughest remaining schedule in the NFL. We are not making the playoffs this year. Claiming Orton blows 2.5 million dollars for no reason. We need to see what Stanzi can do sooner rather than later.

jrdrylie
11-23-2011, 10:30 AM
As the biggest Orton hatter on this board, I hated the idea of Orton coming back to Chicago at first. But I've gotten on board. I have to think that even with Orton on board, Hanie will be the starter. But if he gets hurt, I would rather have Orton out there than Enderle. But if he starts over Hanie, I might fly up to Chicago and castrate Mike Martz.

A Perfect Score
11-23-2011, 10:45 AM
I find it hard to believe the Broncos couldn't get a 4th rounder for him at the trade deadline. This just seems like a silly tossing away of what could be perceived as a valuable commodity. Guys who can start at QB in the NFL will always have value...I don't see what the Broncos save by just cutting him, what's 2.5 million for an NFL franchise? Nothing.

nepg
11-23-2011, 11:05 AM
Maybe he was causing problems in Denver?

I don't like him for KC. He doesn't give them a better chance to win than Palko or Stanzi this late in the year. I think the only reason they'd pick him up is in case Palko got hurt and the division was still within their reach.

LonghornsLegend
11-23-2011, 11:10 AM
I find it hard to believe the Broncos couldn't get a 4th rounder for him at the trade deadline. This just seems like a silly tossing away of what could be perceived as a valuable commodity. Guys who can start at QB in the NFL will always have value...I don't see what the Broncos save by just cutting him, what's 2.5 million for an NFL franchise? Nothing.

Makes you wonder what the hold-up was with the trade with Miami. They wanted him pretty badly, a 4th or 5th seemed very do-able at worst case from the Dolphins side, a 2nd was just asking for too much.



I also haven't seen the Colts name brought up enough. Anytime your deciding between Drew Stanton, and Curtis Painter it's time to upgrade the position as fast as you can.

vidae
11-23-2011, 11:14 AM
I read a report on PFT that I can't find anymore that said when Cutler went down he asked to be released, haha. I guess he thought he'd automatically go to the Bears.

Shane P. Hallam
11-23-2011, 11:17 AM
Makes you wonder what the hold-up was with the trade with Miami. They wanted him pretty badly, a 4th or 5th seemed very do-able at worst case from the Dolphins side, a 2nd was just asking for too much.

It was the contract. Orton rejected the Dolphins contract offers and Fins wouldn't deal for him without a new deal.

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 11:23 AM
http://twitter.com/#!/JasonLaCanfora/status/139390042161414144

So with the Texans signing Kellen Clemens, no waiver claim for Kyle Orton there. Deadline is 4pm. Maybe the Bears. Maybe KC

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 11:30 AM
We have the toughest remaining schedule in the NFL. We are not making the playoffs this year. Claiming Orton blows 2.5 million dollars for no reason. We need to see what Stanzi can do sooner rather than later.

Yea but the rest of the division blows too. Stanzi might be the answer but it certainly isn't Palko

I read a report on PFT that I can't find anymore that said when Cutler went down he asked to be released, haha. I guess he thought he'd automatically go to the Bears.

I saw similar reports yesterday, can't find them either. Still it wouldn't surprise me if he did considering he is supposedly refusing anyone but the Bears

nepg
11-23-2011, 11:32 AM
I think the Texans are happy with Leinart and Yates. It's just too much to bring a QB in this late in the season to a completely new team and offense.

Brodeur
11-23-2011, 11:37 AM
Makes you wonder what the hold-up was with the trade with Miami. They wanted him pretty badly, a 4th or 5th seemed very do-able at worst case from the Dolphins side, a 2nd was just asking for too much.



I also haven't seen the Colts name brought up enough. Anytime your deciding between Drew Stanton, and Curtis Painter it's time to upgrade the position as fast as you can.

Drew Stanton is not Dan Orlovsky.

Da-Phins
11-23-2011, 11:46 AM
Really whats the point of releasing him and not just letting him walk in FA? Do the Broncos not like to add a extra mid round pick? Dumbass organization...

I thought the Texans would be his spot but apparently not anymore since they signed another QB. I would bet on him landing with either the Chiefs or Redskins. Doubt he will make it all the way to the Bears like so many people are predicting he will land there.

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 11:49 AM
I think the Texans are happy with Leinart and Yates. It's just too much to bring a QB in this late in the season to a completely new team and offense.

They brought in Kellen Clemens today

vidae
11-23-2011, 12:13 PM
This is what Evan Silva tweeted not too long ago:

ESPN's John Clayton suggested on SportsCenter that Kyle Orton might not report to the Chiefs if they claim him off waivers today.

Clayton: "What Orton's trying to do is get word to KC to stay off...maybe sit out the rest of the season & not play & not report to Chiefs."

That would be awesome and totally fine with me. I'd laugh my ass off if that happened.

Jughead10
11-23-2011, 12:16 PM
I don't get why KC would even consider claiming him? If they want to piss away 2.5 million dollars I'll give them my address where they can send a check to.

Shane P. Hallam
11-23-2011, 12:17 PM
This is what Evan Silva tweeted not too long ago:

ESPN's John Clayton suggested on SportsCenter that Kyle Orton might not report to the Chiefs if they claim him off waivers today.

Clayton: "What Orton's trying to do is get word to KC to stay off...maybe sit out the rest of the season & not play & not report to Chiefs."

That would be awesome and totally fine with me. I'd laugh my ass off if that happened.

Well, after this, KC won't pick him up.

BeerBaron
11-23-2011, 12:18 PM
I don't get why KC would even consider claiming him? If they want to piss away 2.5 million dollars I'll give them my address where they can send a check to.

Well, if they claim him and he doesn't report, I assume he goes onto the "reserve/did not report list" and they don't have to pay him. It means no one else can have him though.

vidae
11-23-2011, 12:19 PM
If he's going to be a little ***** about it I'd just pick him up anyway. What a childish move. He gets to play football for a living and he's going to act like this? I either play for the team I want or not at all!!!!

Now I want to pick him up and hope he doesn't report. What a douche.

And wouldn't a compensatory pick be in the works as well?

Jughead10
11-23-2011, 12:20 PM
Well, if they claim him and he doesn't report, I assume he goes onto the "reserve/did not report list" and they don't have to pay him. It means no one else can have him though.

I get that. But why do they want him? So they can pay him 2.5 million dollars, still not make the playoffs, and watch him leave in FA next year? Again, they can write me a check for half that if they are looking to give out money for no good reason.

vidae
11-23-2011, 12:22 PM
I get that. But why do they want him? So they can pay him 2.5 million dollars, still not make the playoffs, and watch him leave in FA next year? Again, they can write me a check for half that if they are looking to give out money for no good reason.

That was kind of my reasoning too. The signing for KC doesn't make a whole lot of sense in that regard. We might as well save the money and see what Stanzi has to offer. Either way we need to address QB early in this draft so Orton isn't in the long term plans so whatever.

Jughead10
11-23-2011, 12:23 PM
That was kind of my reasoning too. The signing for KC doesn't make a whole lot of sense in that regard. We might as well save the money and see what Stanzi has to offer. Either way we need to address QB early in this draft so Orton isn't in the long term plans so whatever.

Agreed. And even you don't address QB early, I'd still rather have Cassell over Orton.

Orton only really makes sense for one team. Chicago. And that's only if they feel he can be better than Hanie.

vidae
11-23-2011, 12:24 PM
Agreed. And even you don't address QB early, I'd still rather have Cassell over Orton.

Woah woah woah, no need to get crazy up in here!

Shane P. Hallam
11-23-2011, 12:25 PM
Well, if they claim him and he doesn't report, I assume he goes onto the "reserve/did not report list" and they don't have to pay him. It means no one else can have him though.

It's not quite that easy, he could probably not report and (depending on the rule,) report late in the season to still get paid something. Is it really worth the headache? No. He'll probably be a Bear.

BeerBaron
11-23-2011, 12:27 PM
I get that. But why do they want him? So they can pay him 2.5 million dollars, still not make the playoffs, and watch him leave in FA next year? Again, they can write me a check for half that if they are looking to give out money for no good reason.

No idea. Well, I have some ideas, but they're all idiotic. (Probably means they're true...)

The Chiefs don't want a rival team to get him. Like, one they're in the playoff hunt against.......<snicker>.....sorry, couldn't get that out without laughing.

Or, they could want to pick his brain on the Broncos offense....the completely different one they aren't running with Tebow....

Or, they play the Bears in 2 weeks. Maybe they're afraid he'll go into Chicago, be the immediate starter and beat them. (I know Martz doesn't like Hanie...but c'mon man.)

All incredibly stupid. But NFL front offices aren't generally known for being the brightest bulbs when it comes to situations like this.

The whole situation is just stupid. Incredibly stupid.

nepg
11-23-2011, 12:28 PM
Well, after this, KC won't pick him up.
Why? If he doesn't report, they don't have to pay him. Plus, it ensures he's not available for Chicago when they play in a couple weeks or for the Texans who could be in competition with the Chiefs for a playoff spot if Leinart/Yates blows.

And with the way the Chargers are playing and the Broncos getting inexplicable wins, the Chiefs actually ARE still in the AFC West race. They need to make serious changes and adjustments, but they have a legit shot at beating the Bears, Jets, Raiders, and Broncos. 8-8 might be good enough, and if Palko plays more like he did when he looked decent against New England than when he looked like a QB who was starting his first NFL game ever, they could be good enough to give Pittsburgh a run. Hell, they even match up surprisingly well against Green Bay.

Bottom line, the Chiefs are still trying to win, and they're not going to stop trying to win. If they're mathematically eliminated from the playoff race, they'll probably give Stanzi some snaps for experience.

vikes_28
11-23-2011, 12:28 PM
First thought when i saw this? Bears.

Shane P. Hallam
11-23-2011, 12:39 PM
Doing some research, and not quite sure how it is since Orton will join a team with a few games remaining, but here is what I gather:

-If Orton doesn't report, his contract is frozen. So, he WILL report, maybe Week 17, but he'll report and get paid some portion of his contract so he can become a FA I'd imagine.

-I THINK ending the season on the DNR list would negate any compensation picks for Orton. Essentially, if he isn't paid, you aren't getting a comp pick. The formula for comp picks not released, so I'm not 100% sure on that, but remember reading it during the Palmer situation.

Orton has options here essentially. Not just "He doesn't report, we don't have to pay him and reap the benefits".

vidae
11-23-2011, 12:43 PM
Shane and I were talking about it, and he's not 100% on it, but a compensatory pick might be in the works for KC.

Like he said he isn't 100% sure, and I'm not either, but if there is a chance we could get a pick for him leaving in FA, hell, sign him right now. I wish I knew for certain though. I'd defer to Shane for these kinds of things usually though, I just want to know for sure.

Crazy_Chris
11-23-2011, 12:53 PM
So now he is telling teams not to claim him. Seems to me like Orton is trying his best to stick it to the Broncos... If his plan works, I have a feeling he will sign a F/A contract soon after going unclaimed.

Monomach
11-23-2011, 12:54 PM
Not sure why the Lions aren't being mentioned as a possible destination. Would make all the sense in the world to claim him just to improve their wild card odds.

Jughead10
11-23-2011, 12:59 PM
Not sure why the Lions aren't being mentioned as a possible destination. Would make all the sense in the world to claim him just to improve their wild card odds.

This is true. Blocking him from going to Chicago would be worth it for them.

Diehard
11-23-2011, 01:02 PM
So now he is telling teams not to claim him. Seems to me like Orton is trying his best to stick it to the Broncos... If his plan works, I have a feeling he will sign a F/A contract soon after going unclaimed.

Or the Broncos and Bears have some sort of gentlemen's agreement in place (e.g. "we'll cut him if you promise to put in a waiver claim").

Anyway, it sure seems like something is going on behind the scenes.

BeerBaron
11-23-2011, 01:03 PM
Please, the NFC wildcard contenders should want Orton to end up in Chicago...a guy with no system experience going into a Martz offense? Ha....sigh....

This is ridiculous. ******* ridiculous. If Orton goes to Chicago and actually sees the field, it already spells doom for our season.

Monomach
11-23-2011, 01:21 PM
I'm not sold on Caleb Haniezzz...at all...and it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Lovie grew some nuts after the Cutler injury.

He could very well be forcing Martz to throw away 75% of the passing plays in his offense and go simple. That's what I would do. If that's the case, Orton would probably be able to learn it on the fly. I think he needs a week off to study no matter what, so Haniezzz gets his chance. Obviously, if he shows anything, Orton doesn't get to play.

I'm just excited by the slim possibility of Orton re-signing after the season to be our long-term backup.

diabsoule
11-23-2011, 01:22 PM
Texans aren't in contention for Orton. They signed Kellen Clemens instead

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 01:25 PM
Shane and I were talking about it, and he's not 100% on it, but a compensatory pick might be in the works for KC.

Like he said he isn't 100% sure, and I'm not either, but if there is a chance we could get a pick for him leaving in FA, hell, sign him right now. I wish I knew for certain though. I'd defer to Shane for these kinds of things usually though, I just want to know for sure.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/23/orton-has-no-say-in-his-next-destination/

According to this (as far as I understand it) If he goes on the "did not report list" he would actually lose out on his eligibility for FA next year which might mean you would not gain a compensation pick and he would still owe you a year of service.

Shane P. Hallam
11-23-2011, 01:27 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/23/orton-has-no-say-in-his-next-destination/

According to this (as far as I understand it) If he goes on the "did not report list" he would actually lose out on his eligibility for FA next year which might mean you would not gain a compensation pick and he would still owe you a year of service.

Right, thus why he would likely report Week 17 or so, get paid some and go to FA if he didn't want to play for KC.

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 01:29 PM
Right, thus why he would likely report Week 17 or so, get paid some and go to FA if he didn't want to play for KC.

See thats where it gets fuzzy for me, the rule is usually week 10 IIRC, not sure how that would affect it considering its after week 10

Shane P. Hallam
11-23-2011, 01:30 PM
See thats where it gets fuzzy for me, the rule is usually week 10 IIRC, not sure how that would affect it considering its after week 10

Right, I'll be interested to see. If a player just needs 8 accumulated weeks, Orton would have that. could be what he is betting on.

diabsoule
11-23-2011, 03:08 PM
Per Adam Schefter - Kyle Orton was claimed on waivers -- by a still unidentified team before Chicago.

nobodyinparticular
11-23-2011, 03:10 PM
KC it is...

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 03:10 PM
Per Adam Schefter - Kyle Orton was claimed on waivers -- by a still unidentified team before Chicago.

Beat me to this one, I'm assuming the Chiefs

diabsoule
11-23-2011, 03:10 PM
Breaking News: the Chiefs have claimed QB Kyle Orton off waivers from the Broncos.

Diehard
11-23-2011, 03:18 PM
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7274326/kansas-city-chiefs-claim-kyle-orton-waivers-source-says

Source claims that Bears and Chiefs both put in claims.

Interesting, I wonder if Orton will refuse to show?

49erNation85
11-23-2011, 03:18 PM
well it looks like the chiefs won't be drafting a QB poor boe and v lol.

diabsoule
11-23-2011, 03:22 PM
More from Schefter: the Bears, who did put in a waiver claim for Kyle Orton, have agreed to terms with QB Josh McCown on a one-year contract.

and the Bills claimed former Redskins running back Tashard Choice on waivers today.

LonghornsLegend
11-23-2011, 04:06 PM
I don't know why everyone thinks this is such a stupid move for the Chiefs. 2.5 mil for a QB you'll start isn't nearly anything to get up in arms about, and contrary to what some feel they aren't out of the division race. Nobody knows what to make of that division just yet.


Add to that, while I'm sure Chiefs fans want a high pick and the best QB available, there is no certainty Todd Haley will be around for that. So the last thing he wants to do is just keep losing with a crappy QB and be out of a job. It makes all the sense in the world for them, but some people in the first few pages of the thread made it seem like it was lunacy to do so.

Jimmy
11-23-2011, 04:09 PM
Kyle Orton's feelings after being waived in favor for Tebow > Tebow

BeerBaron
11-23-2011, 04:20 PM
Shmeh. Like I said when all of this started, he has no familiarity with the system and wouldn't (shouldn't) have been anything more than Hanie's backup.

nepg
11-23-2011, 04:23 PM
I don't know why everyone thinks this is such a stupid move for the Chiefs. 2.5 mil for a QB you'll start isn't nearly anything to get up in arms about, and contrary to what some feel they aren't out of the division race. Nobody knows what to make of that division just yet.


Add to that, while I'm sure Chiefs fans want a high pick and the best QB available, there is no certainty Todd Haley will be around for that. So the last thing he wants to do is just keep losing with a crappy QB and be out of a job. It makes all the sense in the world for them, but some people in the first few pages of the thread made it seem like it was lunacy to do so.
They probably won't have to pay him $2.5m if he doesn't report. The Chiefs are still trying to win - just like every team is. They still have a shot at the division. Orton is nice insurance if Palko gets hurt. They really like Stanzi, but without a full training camp or starter or at least primary backup reps like other rookie QBs have seen, they aren't going to want to throw him into that mess with the line playing so poorly.

vidae
11-23-2011, 04:24 PM
What a stupid, stupid move. Pathetic dumbshit team I follow, seriously. I've never been more disappointed in the Chiefs, and that is saying something, considering we've been pathetic to mediocre for the entire history of this franchise.

Pathetic.

Brent
11-23-2011, 04:25 PM
I figured they were going to roll with Palko or throw Stanzi to the wolves

Raiderz4Life
11-23-2011, 04:30 PM
What a stupid, stupid move. Pathetic dumbshit team I follow, seriously. I've never been more disappointed in the Chiefs, and that is saying something, considering we've been pathetic to mediocre for the entire history of this franchise.

Pathetic.

Oakland says hello

Brodeur
11-23-2011, 04:31 PM
Shmeh. Like I said when all of this started, he has no familiarity with the system and wouldn't (shouldn't) have been anything more than Hanie's backup.

Okay Mike Martz, I'm glad you're here to continually say this over and over and over and over and over.

nepg
11-23-2011, 04:34 PM
What a stupid, stupid move. Pathetic dumbshit team I follow, seriously. I've never been more disappointed in the Chiefs, and that is saying something, considering we've been pathetic to mediocre for the entire history of this franchise.

Pathetic.
I hear a lot of complaining about the "paltry" amount of money the Chiefs spend. They drop $2.5m on a really good backup QB (zero other compensation) that they'll probably end up getting a draft pick for at some point, and you get mad.

vidae
11-23-2011, 04:37 PM
The Chiefs are not making the playoffs. They have the toughest remaining schedule in the NFL and the only thing Orton can do is potentially cost us a few draft spots where we could have drafted an actual franchise QB this year.

This move makes absolutely zero sense for the Chiefs and their long term plans. Nothing. Winning an extra game or two this year is going to only set this franchise back even more.

vidae
11-23-2011, 04:39 PM
I hear a lot of complaining about the "paltry" amount of money the Chiefs spend. They drop $2.5m on a really good backup QB (zero other compensation) that they'll probably end up getting a draft pick for at some point, and you get mad.

I've never complained about the amount of money we spend (or in this case don't spend) so that doesn't apply to me.

And why does it matter to get a back up QB for this year? Is that really our biggest need? You're always a little delusional (about everything Chiefs related) and even YOU can't think we'll make the playoffs, so what is the point? To have him for 6 games before he hits the FA market? To be a backup in games we won't win for a season that is over?

If he decides to not report, we get nothing. No comp pick, nothing. The reason I'm mad is because this move, for the short term or long term success of this club, makes zero sense. None. And I hate moves like that.

JBCX
11-23-2011, 04:45 PM
Vidae: Maybe Todd Haley just thinks that it is important to go into the 2012 season with a winning mentality. Winning some games at the end of the season will enable you to go into the next season "hot" and give you a better start.

vidae
11-23-2011, 04:51 PM
Vidae: Maybe Todd Haley just thinks that it is important to go into the 2012 season with a winning mentality. Winning some games at the end of the season will enable you to go into the next season "hot" and give you a better start.

With the same ****** QBs we have now? We're never going anything with Cassel or Orton, period. They're not good enough.

JBCX
11-23-2011, 04:54 PM
With the same ****** QBs we have now? We're never going anything with Cassel or Orton, period. They're not good enough.

Your team won a tough division with Cassel last year.

Just build on that and maybe Cassel will take the team to a Super Bowl eventually.

Basileus777
11-23-2011, 04:56 PM
I don't understand getting upset about this move. Yeah Orton probably isn't going to win us many games or make much of a difference, but the only real loss here is some of Clark Hunt's money.

Jimmy
11-23-2011, 04:57 PM
If he decides to not report, we get nothing. No comp pick, nothing.

You will get a pro-rated portion of his signing bonus. Chump change, but perhaps enough to get him in KC.

vidae
11-23-2011, 04:59 PM
Your team won a tough division with Cassel last year.

Just build on that and maybe Cassel will take the team to a Super Bowl eventually.

Cassel is never taking the Chiefs to the Super Bowl, and we won a pretty ****** division because we had a cupcake schedule.

Jimmy
11-23-2011, 05:00 PM
With the same ****** QBs we have now? We're never going anything with Cassel or Orton, period. They're not good enough.

I think the point here is that you have a 56 man roster and a coaching staff fighting for jobs.

Haley isn't going to roll over and hand his job to the next guy. He is doing everything he can to win ball games, and you have to respect that, as much as it will ultimate **** your team over in the long run.

This is the best chance for Haley to keep his job. Can't blame the guy for wanting to keep his job, or for whoever is upstairs to want to stop some bleeding.

Shane P. Hallam
11-23-2011, 05:00 PM
The Cowboys also put a bid in along with the Chiefs and Bears!

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/nick_eatman.cfm?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog:1990bfd1-c6a9-4728-af3f-a229e85b981cPost:001e2c5e-9328-4950-9c59-5724ac5e156a&sid=sitelife.dallascowboys.com

vidae
11-23-2011, 05:05 PM
I think the point here is that you have a 56 man roster and a coaching staff fighting for jobs.

Haley isn't going to roll over and hand his job to the next guy. He is doing everything he can to win ball games, and you have to respect that, as much as it will ultimate **** your team over in the long run.

This is the best chance for Haley to keep his job. Can't blame the guy for wanting to keep his job, or for whoever is upstairs to want to stop some bleeding.

I don't blame Haley for wanting to keep his job, and I will never actively root for the Chiefs to lose.

I'm really just sick of this team not mattering. Even when we made the playoffs last year, it was a foregone conclusion that we were going to be bounced early. And we can pretend for a second that we make the playoffs this year, we're not going to compete with those teams.

Short term success is neat, but I'm sick of it. I want long term success. Matt Cassel and Kyle Orton aren't going to provide that.

Jimmy
11-23-2011, 05:14 PM
Short term success is neat, but I'm sick of it. I want long term success. Matt Cassel and Kyle Orton aren't going to provide that.

Well thank god for the NFL Draft, and thank god for being able to trade up for the likes of RGIII or whoever you see fit.

You understand, at least, that the Chiefs (and Denver) need a real QB to push far into the playoffs. Don't forget, however, that your front office understands that entirely as well. You guys are more agressive in that regard than most other teams, you wanted a frachise-QB that bad that you went after Matt Cassel.

He ain't elite or frachise, but there was a chance. Before you know it, you guys will draft another guy, assuming you sack up and take the hit on the remainer of Cassel's contract.

Maybe you guys finish 7-9, and maybe you guys land someone who pans out. But you won't be stuck with Kyle Orton as starter.

M.O.T.H.
11-23-2011, 05:16 PM
The Cowboys also put a bid in along with the Chiefs and Bears!

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/nick_eatman.cfm?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog:1990bfd1-c6a9-4728-af3f-a229e85b981cPost:001e2c5e-9328-4950-9c59-5724ac5e156a&sid=sitelife.dallascowboys.com

I saw this as well...they're pretty worried about Kitna's back injury.

vidae
11-23-2011, 05:16 PM
Well thank god for the NFL Draft, and thank god for being able to trade up for the likes of RGIII or whoever you see fit.

You understand, at least, that the Chiefs (and Denver) need a real QB to push far into the playoffs. Don't forget, however, that your front office understands that entirely as well. You guys are more agressive in that regard than most other teams, you wanted a frachise-QB that bad that you went after Matt Cassel.

He ain't elite or frachise, but there was a chance. Before you know it, you guys will draft another guy, assuming you sack up and take the hit on the remainer of Cassel's contract.

Maybe you guys finish 7-9, and maybe you guys land someone who pans out. But you won't be stuck with Kyle Orton as starter.

That is the problem though. Pioli does not strike me as the type of guy to trade up for a QB. He could move to #1 or he could stay put and take another ****** DE. Who knows with him.

It's easier to assume that he'd take the QB that fell to him rather than moving up for one.

Raiderz4Life
11-23-2011, 05:23 PM
That is the problem though. Pioli does not strike me as the type of guy to trade up for a QB. He could move to #1 or he could stay put and take another ****** DE. Who knows with him.

It's easier to assume that he'd take the QB that fell to him rather than moving up for one.

Best bet would be to land somewhere between 10-15 to have a shot at RGIII

vidae
11-23-2011, 05:24 PM
If he doesn't go top 10, sure, but there are a lot of QB needy teams picking ahead of us right now and I wouldn't put money on the fact that a QB makes it to us.

Jimmy
11-23-2011, 05:30 PM
That is the problem though. Pioli does not strike me as the type of guy to trade up for a QB. He could move to #1 or he could stay put and take another ****** DE. Who knows with him.

It's easier to assume that he'd take the QB that fell to him rather than moving up for one.

Well at least the worst case scenario isn't so bad. Chiefs suck it up next season with Cassel. Your team continues to play like an expansion squad – Haley is out of a job.

New coach comes in, has no loyalty or investment in Cassel. Cuts ties, takes a QB in the 2013 NFL draft. You get one of these guys (If RG3 or Barkley doesn't declare, that is)

Tyler Bray QB 1 Tennessee So 6-5 210 5.16
Aaron Murray QB 2 Georgia rSo 6-1 212 4.76
Casey Pachall QB 3 TCU So 6-4 216 4.67
Matt Barkley QB 2 Southern California Jr 6-2 220 4.74
Robert Griffin QB 3 Baylor rJr 6-2 220 4.52
Landry Jones QB 4 Oklahoma rJr 6-4 230 4.74
E.J. Manuel QB 5 Florida State rJr 6-4 245 4.59
Tyler Wilson QB 6 Arkansas rJr 6-3 220 4.77

No super-sexy names, but things change over a year.

nobodyinparticular
11-23-2011, 05:30 PM
I saw this as well...they're pretty worried about Kitna's back injury.

I wonder if it partially has to do with trying to block the Wild Card contenders in Chicago from getting a semi-serviceable QB. I understand the need to cover their butts in the event Romo goes down and the fear of Kitna's injury. However, keep in mind that the 'Boys are barely hanging on to the division lead; and if the Giants take the reigns in the division, Dallas needs to have the Bears fall out of the Wild Card to secure their playoff spot.

vidae
11-23-2011, 05:36 PM
Well at least the worst case scenario isn't so bad. Chiefs suck it up next season with Cassel. Your team continues to play like an expansion squad – Haley is out of a job.

Haha, but the worst case scenario is happening RIGHT NOW. So you're saying at least there is light at the end of the tunnel, but we're at the end of the tunnel right now. We're already playing like an expansion squad and we already sucked with Cassel. That is my point.. I don't want to go through seasons like THIS ONE again NEXT YEAR. :p

M.O.T.H.
11-23-2011, 05:39 PM
I wonder if it partially has to do with trying to block the Wild Card contenders in Chicago from getting a semi-serviceable QB. I understand the need to cover their butts in the event Romo goes down and the fear of Kitna's injury. However, keep in mind that the 'Boys are barely hanging on to the division lead; and if the Giants take the reigns in the division, Dallas needs to have the Bears fall out of the Wild Card to secure their playoff spot.

Not a bad idea, either. Could certainly factor in for sure.

nepg
11-23-2011, 05:42 PM
I've never complained about the amount of money we spend (or in this case don't spend) so that doesn't apply to me.

And why does it matter to get a back up QB for this year? Is that really our biggest need? You're always a little delusional (about everything Chiefs related) and even YOU can't think we'll make the playoffs, so what is the point? To have him for 6 games before he hits the FA market? To be a backup in games we won't win for a season that is over?

If he decides to not report, we get nothing. No comp pick, nothing. The reason I'm mad is because this move, for the short term or long term success of this club, makes zero sense. None. And I hate moves like that.

Do I think this team will make the playoffs? No. But I want them to do everything they can to try to get there. At this point it's a long-shot, but they are still in it. They still have the Bears, Jets, Raiders, and Broncos - winnable games if Palko plays even slightly better than he did against the Patriots. 8-8 could very well put them in the playoffs. If you want to talk about schedules, the rest of the teams in the AFC West don't have it much easier... The season isn't over.

A backup QB is a big need for this team this year. They have Palko and Stanzi. Stanzi is a rookie who got no off-season and the team didn't focus much on the playbook in the short pre-season they had. If they're trying to win, they need a quality backup.

I just don't see why you'd be upset with this move at all. There's no negative to it. It's not your money, and it isn't keeping them from signing someone else.

With the posts you're making in this thread, it's amazing that you're calling me delusional.

Jimmy
11-23-2011, 05:45 PM
Haha, but the worst case scenario is happening RIGHT NOW. So you're saying at least there is light at the end of the tunnel, but we're at the end of the tunnel right now. We're already playing like an expansion squad and we already sucked with Cassel. That is my point.. I don't want to go through seasons like THIS ONE again NEXT YEAR. :p

Sadly, because of your early season "success", your best shot at getting that top tier QB is 17 months away. It's gonna take patience and tons of kansas city bbq to hold you guys over.

If it makes you feel any better, at least your team isn't starting Peter Popoff at Quarterback. Heck, by the looks of things, we're not going to pick until 16-24. That puts us out of contention for anyone. At least Jason Campbell will have a job next year.

vidae
11-23-2011, 05:54 PM
I just don't see why you'd be upset with this move at all. There's no negative to it. It's not your money, and it isn't keeping them from signing someone else.

I'm upset because this does nothing to help the future of this club, but it could hurt us long term. If we win a game or two with Orton, we could potentially miss one of those franchise QBs. If we're picking 4-12 we have a legit shot at a very talented QB who would be lightyears ahead of Cassel AND Orton combined. I don't want to jeopardize that at a chance to win 6 games and still miss the playoffs.

The next four weeks the Chiefs have the "final four" of the NFL from last year. The Jets, Steelers, Bears and Packers were all in the AFC and NFC championship games.. so how could you say no one in the AFC West has it any easier?

It would be a miracle for this club to make the playoffs as it stands right now, and I don't get how anyone can disagree with that.

Sadly, because of your early season "success", your best shot at getting that top tier QB is 17 months away.

The Chiefs could finish this year 4-12, which puts them smack in the top 5/top 10 range. Depending on who stays in school and declares, there could be a good chance to draft a QB for the future right where we're picking.

If we win 1 or 2 more games, who knows.

Raiderz4Life
11-23-2011, 05:56 PM
If he doesn't go top 10, sure, but there are a lot of QB needy teams picking ahead of us right now and I wouldn't put money on the fact that a QB makes it to us.

If you guys pick just outside the top 10...sure you can possibly land Jones or RGIII.

Splat
11-23-2011, 05:56 PM
That is the problem though. Pioli does not strike me as the type of guy to trade up for a QB. He could move to #1 or he could stay put and take another ****** DE. Who knows with him.


No he couldn't. There is no way the Colts are giving up the rights to Luck.

vidae
11-23-2011, 06:01 PM
No he couldn't. There is no way the Colts are giving up the rights to Luck.

Ugh. I'm not talking about just this year, I'm saying that we have no idea what Pioli will do in any given year. He could trade up to #1 or he could trade down to #32. What he does is a mystery every year.

nepg
11-23-2011, 06:14 PM
I'm upset because this does nothing to help the future of this club, but it could hurt us long term. If we win a game or two with Orton, we could potentially miss one of those franchise QBs. If we're picking 4-12 we have a legit shot at a very talented QB who would be lightyears ahead of Cassel AND Orton combined. I don't want to jeopardize that at a chance to win 6 games and still miss the playoffs.

They're not drafting a QB. Get over it already. Cassel's their man and for good reason. He's dealt with a lot of **** from this team and detractors. He won 10 games last year with 2 receiving targets and should have won 13 if the playcalling had been slightly better early in the season. People say "that's the absolute most you'll ever get out of Cassel"...really? That's pretty ******* good, imo. To put up those numbers with one good receiver and a solid TE? With NO ONE ELSE in the passing game... Hopefully they'll get healthy in the off-season and get the couple guys they need to run away with the AFC West.

The next four weeks the Chiefs have the "final four" of the NFL from last year. The Jets, Steelers, Bears and Packers were all in the AFC and NFC championship games.. so how could you say no one in the AFC West has it any easier?

Because this isn't 2010? The Bears was a game I had the Chiefs winning. With the QB situation of each team, not much changes there except Palko has one week more experience than Hanie (?). The Jets have been bad, the Steelers can be beat by any team in the NFL (and that's not an "any given Sunday" deal)... Then you have the Raiders and Broncos.

The Chiefs could finish this year 4-12, which puts them smack in the top 5/top 10 range. Depending on who stays in school and declares, there could be a good chance to draft a QB for the future right where we're picking.

If we win 1 or 2 more games, who knows.

Yeah, puts them in a great spot to possibly land Kalil. That would be huge. If they win more games, they might have to settle for Burfict, Richardson, Kuechly, or Mike Adams...

Raiderz4Life
11-23-2011, 06:19 PM
They're not drafting a QB. Get over it already. Cassel's their man and for good reason. He's dealt with a lot of **** from this team and detractors. He won 10 games last year with 2 receiving targets and should have won 13 if the playcalling had been slightly better early in the season. People say "that's the absolute most you'll ever get out of Cassel"...really? That's pretty ******* good, imo. To put up those numbers with one good receiver and a solid TE? With NO ONE ELSE in the passing game... Hopefully they'll get healthy in the off-season and get the couple guys they need to run away with the AFC West.



Because this isn't 2010? The Bears was a game I had the Chiefs winning. With the QB situation of each team, not much changes there except Palko has one week more experience than Hanie (?). The Jets have been bad, the Steelers can be beat by any team in the NFL (and that's not an "any given Sunday" deal)... Then you have the Raiders and Broncos.



Yeah, puts them in a great spot to possibly land Kalil. That would be huge. If they win more games, they might have to settle for Burfict, Richardson, Kuechly, or Mike Adams...

Even with Cutler out...NYJ Pitt and Chi >>>> KC right now. Cassel seriously regressed this year..played decent last year at times looked like dog **** this year.

vidae
11-23-2011, 06:20 PM
maybe i'm off base, but i feel like you spend a lot of time defending matt cassel, and i'm not entirely sure why. he's a below average (not terrible) qb in the nfl and he really doesn't have any business starting as more than (a la new england) the caretaker of a really good team.

Nepg is the biggest troll this site has. He never blames Cassel for ANYTHING. It isn't Cassel, it's the playcalling! Or it's the receivers! Or it's the sun in his eyes! Or it is the RBs fault he threw a stupid pick!

He has done this since he has been here and it's really annoying, but you won't get anything else out of him. He is a Patriots fan and he was a fan of Cassel in NE and now he thinks he does no wrong.

Just ignore him.

nepg
11-23-2011, 06:28 PM
maybe i'm off base, but i feel like you spend a lot of time defending matt cassel, and i'm not entirely sure why. he's a below average (not terrible) qb in the nfl and he really doesn't have any business starting as more than (a la new england) the caretaker of a really good team.

He's much more than that.

Have you taken note of the situations he's been put in? Even in New England...

2008: Puts up ~3700 yards behind the worst pass blocking OL in the NFL.

2009: LOL. Leading receiver is Chris Chambers (picked him up via waiver claim mid-season). All of the pressure is coming up the middle. Offense is just terrible, defense not much better in a transition year.

2010: Pro Bowl and Playoffs with one good receiver who didn't show up until ~Week 4 and a solid pass-catching TE who is injury prone. No other pass catchers. Literally, the offense was an outside WR and a slot WR away from contending in 2010. They got those for 2011, but **** hit the fan with injuries and the lock-out.

2011: No off-season on the team that needed it the most. New offense with a ******** playcalling system, no Moeaki (one of two receivers from last year), no replacement for Moeaki, no Charles, significant regression in the OL (Lilja struggling at LG, Wiegmann regressing from age at C, Barry Richardson seemingly regressing from human to mongoloid to gorilla to fish intelligence), adjusting to new slot receiver...who is playing on the outside, Jerame Urban, Terrance Copper, and Keary Colbert (though Colbert started looking decent at one point) getting major snaps at WR, rookie stud WR out for entire pre-season and 4-6 weeks of the regular season... I can keep going. Few QBs come close to the success Cassel has had in his career in these situations.

Jimmy
11-23-2011, 06:33 PM
Nepg is the biggest troll this site has. He never blames Cassel for ANYTHING. It isn't Cassel, it's the playcalling! Or it's the receivers! Or it's the sun in his eyes! Or it is the RBs fault he threw a stupid pick!

He has done this since he has been here and it's really annoying, but you won't get anything else out of him. He is a Patriots fan and he was a fan of Cassel in NE and now he thinks he does no wrong.

Just ignore him.

i mean, in his defense, just a horribly run route by mccluster. he didnt even make a play on that ball.

ZQoY7wr7Ms4

vidae
11-23-2011, 06:35 PM
That is one throw. One.

And the Chiefs won the AFC West because of a ridiculously easy schedule and almost no significant injuries. Every team deals with injuries but Matt Cassel is not a QB who is going to win you games when you have them. He isn't. When you have a solid defense and the #1 rushing team in the league, sure, he is going to put up stats, but he isn't going to carry a team for any length of time.

Jimmy
11-23-2011, 06:36 PM
Cassel > Tebow

D-Unit
11-23-2011, 06:39 PM
Nepg is the biggest troll this site has. He never blames Cassel for ANYTHING. It isn't Cassel, it's the playcalling! Or it's the receivers! Or it's the sun in his eyes! Or it is the RBs fault he threw a stupid pick!

He has done this since he has been here and it's really annoying, but you won't get anything else out of him. He is a Patriots fan and he was a fan of Cassel in NE and now he thinks he does no wrong.

Just ignore him.
I agree somewhat with nepg. I don't know how much he believes in Cassell, cause I don't think he's "elite", but I definitely don't think he's "regressed" in his skills or his ability. Maybe he looks worse or his stats or down and the team didn't progress like they hoped, but I can't say with a surety that the main problem is on him.

When Jammal Charles went down that was the bone crusher. Especially since Thomas Jones (a player who I WOULD say has regressed) could no longer be counted on. Jakie Battle? C'mon now.

A good running game is so important to the success of the team. I know people are quick to point out that this is a passing league, but a good running game can greatly help out the success of your QB.

Everyone wanted Romo's head to roll...said he regressed until Dallas found a run game...

When Jahvid Best went down, Matt Stafford came back to earth...

Everyone says Matt Sanchez has regressed, but I'd look at the change in the Jets running game too...

Colt McCoy had more than a few believers that he was the Browns franchise QB of the future when Peyton Hillis was chowing down defenders, now they're in limbo land...

Let's see how happy the Bills will be with Fitzpatrick now that Fred Jackson is down...

These are just a few examples, but I think the same rings true for Cassell. If KC had a strong running game, then I think you would've seen that he isn't the problem that he's made out to be. He's just the QB... the guy who gets the credit when things are good and the blame when things are bad.

vidae
11-23-2011, 06:39 PM
Cassel > Tebow

What is your point? You don't want Tebow starting for you either.

vidae
11-23-2011, 06:44 PM
These are just a few examples, but I think the same rings true for Cassell. If KC had a strong running game, then I think you would've seen that he isn't the problem that he's made out to be. He's just the QB... the guy who gets the credit when things are good and the blame when things are bad.

That is exactly the point. Cassel is adequate with a strong running game and a good defense but without them he falls apart. The only reason he had any kind of solid statline last year is a) we had the #1 ranked running offense so he was asked to do less and b) we played some really awful defenses.

All it does is mask how weak he is.

Without an absolutely top notch team around him, he is awful. With an A+ squad with perfect playcalling and a great defense, he is okay. But what team has that?

And is it really too much to ask to want a QB who doesn't fold under pressure? Every team has injuries, the only difference is that our QB can't handle the offense when we do.

Bucs_Rule
11-23-2011, 06:47 PM
Here are the teams that tied with Chiefs at 4-6 or worse. The order amongst the teams with same record is random, I don't know who wins tiebreakers.

Bold are teams that need a QB.

Colts 0-10
Rams 2-8
Vikings 2-8
Panthers 2-8
Redskins 3-7
Cardinals 3-7
Jaguars 3-7
Dolphins 3-7
Chiefs 4-6
Chargers 4-6
Browns 4-6
Buccaneers 4-6
Eagles 4-6
Seahawks 4-6

Only 3 of 8 with worse records then Chiefs are in the market to draft one, the rest drafted a 1st round QB last year, the Cardinals traded for Kolb and the Rams. 2 of the 3 QB needy teams are within a game of the Chiefs. They are tied with the Browns and Seahawks at 4-6.

The Dolphins are surging, they should win 2-3 more games. Seahawks are in the NFC West. If the Chiefs lose out or even lose just one game its a realistic chance only 2 teams will be interested in a QB drafted ahead of them.

Teams drafting behind them still could trade up for a QB.

RaiderNation
11-23-2011, 06:48 PM
Hopefully the Chiefs are dumb enough to think Orton/Cassel can be next years QB, because both are below average now. By the time the Chiefs play Oakland week 16, I think KC will be out of the playoff picture and might even have Stanzi in...

vidae
11-23-2011, 06:51 PM
Hopefully the Chiefs are dumb enough to think Orton/Cassel can be next years QB, because both are below average now. By the time the Chiefs play Oakland week 16, I think KC will be out of the playoff picture and might even have Stanzi in...

That is exactly what I'm worried about here. I'm worried that they think we're fine at the most important position in football when we're clearly NOT. This team is going absolutely nowhere with Cassel or Orton at the helm and we'll be stuck in the same rut we are now until we pull our heads out of our asses and draft an eventual replacement for Cassel. Signing Orton is not it.

Jimmy
11-23-2011, 06:51 PM
What is your point? You don't want Tebow starting for you either.

lol im just messin around. and that post before, where i showed that video.. that was sarcasm.

my main point is that matt cassel is not the solution for any organization looking to win a superbowl.

nobodyinparticular
11-23-2011, 06:54 PM
He's much more than that.

Have you taken note of the situations he's been put in? Even in New England...

2008: Puts up ~3700 yards behind the worst pass blocking OL in the NFL.

2009: LOL. Leading receiver is Chris Chambers (picked him up via waiver claim mid-season). All of the pressure is coming up the middle. Offense is just terrible, defense not much better in a transition year.

2010: Pro Bowl and Playoffs with one good receiver who didn't show up until ~Week 4 and a solid pass-catching TE who is injury prone. No other pass catchers. Literally, the offense was an outside WR and a slot WR away from contending in 2010. They got those for 2011, but **** hit the fan with injuries and the lock-out.

2011: No off-season on the team that needed it the most. New offense with a ******** playcalling system, no Moeaki (one of two receivers from last year), no replacement for Moeaki, no Charles, significant regression in the OL (Lilja struggling at LG, Wiegmann regressing from age at C, Barry Richardson seemingly regressing from human to mongoloid to gorilla to fish intelligence), adjusting to new slot receiver...who is playing on the outside, Jerame Urban, Terrance Copper, and Keary Colbert (though Colbert started looking decent at one point) getting major snaps at WR, rookie stud WR out for entire pre-season and 4-6 weeks of the regular season... I can keep going. Few QBs come close to the success Cassel has had in his career in these situations.

You want to know where Matt Cassel ranks in QBR over the past few years?

QBR from 2008-2010
(in order of success)
2008: 61.0/#33 Just better than Jeff Garcia in 2008 (TB) and worse than 2008 Eli Manning, 2009 Brett Favre and 2008 Jake Delhomme
2010: 51.2/#51 Just better than Chad Henne (2009), Dan Orlovsky (2008) and Tyler Thigpen (2008). Worse than Kyle Orton (2009), Carson Palmer (2009), Seneca Wallace, Jason Campbell (2008), Kerry Collins x2 and Shaun Hill.
2009: 30.2/#92 Oh Boy. As you can see, from 2008-2010, there were 91 better QB seasons (according to QBR) than Matt Cassel's year in 2009. Let's just put it this way: Jamarcus Russell, Brady Quinn, Derek Anderson and Alex Smith have had better seasons than this one. In fact, over this period, Alex Smith NEVER dropped below this mark (2 qualified seasons). Neither did Mark Bulger (2 qualified seasons) or Kerry Collins (3 qualified seasons). Jason Campbell's 3 qualified seasons were significantly better than Cassell's 2009 season.

Cassel put up a pretty good season in 2008, but that was when he had both Randy Moss and Wes Welker to throw to (you forgot to mention that part of the story). Other than that, he has been serviceable at best (2010) and historically bad at worst (2009). This year he has been 1% better at QB than Kyle Orton and significantly worse than Jason Campbell. That is not a QB to build on.

D-Unit
11-23-2011, 06:57 PM
That is exactly what I'm worried about here. I'm worried that they think we're fine at the most important position in football when we're clearly NOT. This team is going absolutely nowhere with Cassel or Orton at the helm and we'll be stuck in the same rut we are now until we pull our heads out of our asses and draft an eventual replacement for Cassel. Signing Orton is not it.
The intention right now is that Orton is just a stop gap for the rest of the season. I wouldn't read into it any more than just that.

Jamaal Charles's return will help the team next year, but I think drafting Trent Richardson would also pay big dividends as Charles' isn't built to be an every down back and his return to 100% could also be a question mark.

Then again, I may just have a biased opinion because I've seen how influential DeMarco Murray has been.

Jimmy
11-23-2011, 07:01 PM
Pocket Sloth will report.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/23/orton-excited-about-recent-events-happy-to-be-a-chief/

“Just wanted everybody to hear it from me first,” Orton said via the Gridiron Grunts application. “I am happy to be a part of the Kansas City Chiefs. I got claimed today. I am excited about the last few days and I am looking forward to getting to know my teammates with the Chiefs.”

http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/007/cache/three-toed-sloth_737_600x450.jpg

J-Mike88
11-23-2011, 07:04 PM
Never knew Kyle Orton was this good to be worthy of such a long thread.
I thought Bears fans were happy to get rid of him, and I know Denver fans booed the heIl out of this guy and wanted him kicked to the curb long ago.

D-Unit
11-23-2011, 07:13 PM
Is Pioli really going to have the patience to develop a QB? When he got hired, he came in guns blazing looking for a quick turn around... he came looking for a chance to solidify his legacy that what he did in NE, he could repeat and validate his legacy. I don't think he has the where-with-all to step back and now go into development mode.

The division is still wide open. The Chiefs have a lot of upside that will be ready to produce in 2012. Charles will return, Baldwin will have had 1 year under him, and the OL is not incompetent. Boost the run game with a stud and I think things start to look up again. You don't need a 1st round RB either. The D will have Eric Berry back and if you add a guy like Vontaze, they could have a much improved defense for sure. Add some smart FA pick ups... ...it's not as doom and gloom as made out and it's not all because of Cassell.

Cassell, even as a bus driver will produce more success, more quickly than a developmental QB that will be there when the Chiefs are on the clock.

vidae
11-23-2011, 07:16 PM
The point is for sustained success for the FUTURE, not just one year. Cassel is not a LONG TERM answer at QB for this team and you might as well start developing a young guy now while you have some "veterans" under contract rather than throwing a rookie QB into the fire right away.

I don't care about short term success. No one should. I care about the long term future of this team.

chief_fan88
11-23-2011, 07:17 PM
I don't see a problem claiming Orton, KC will suck with or without him, maybe they do win a couple more games with him, but if we really need a new QB and Pioli sees this, signing Orton isn't going to stop him from drafting the one he wants, I do expect them to draft a QB this year Pioli said last year that this team wants to get to the point where they draft a QB every year, its just a matter of which round they will draft one in, add to this the possiblity of a comp. pick and I am more than fine with this.

I'm more concerned that they still feel Cassel is the anwser, even though he's what 29 and seems to have regressed, at best he's inconsistent and is nothing more than a backup, I think the only person that doesn't realize this is nepg.

nepg
11-23-2011, 07:20 PM
this, for me, says it all. he's kyle orton. mirror image. he will *never* lead a bad team to the playoffs. he will, happily, come along for the ride if charles is going to drive the bus. he is simply not a franchise qb (based on the eye test). which is fine if you're the ravens or early steelers and all you really need is a qb who isn't going to screw you. but i can only remember one similar skillset qb winning a super bowl in the last 20 years.

He's not Trent Dilfer. He makes plays and is clearly in command of the offense. He's not "along for the ride" in the least.

on possibly the greatest offense in nfl history (the year prior), in an offensive system that, minus the deep throws to moss that he just couldn't make, was perfect for his skill set.

Holy ****, Cassel's not as good as Brady? That's crazy! >_> The OL was terrible that year and the offense on the whole was no where near that 2007 team. Cassel had some first year starter moments, but led the team to 11 wins and put up really good numbers.

and the excuses start. he dropped to 55%, 1:1 td:int, and he was sacked more the previous year. and that's with charles running for 6ypc at the end of the year.

Even the most hardened and blind of the anti-Cassel Chiefs fans won't count 2009 against him. ****, 1:1 td:int was a miracle that year for anyone. Did you not read that Chris Chambers was their best receiver? He got sacked a lot. Difference between 2008 sacks and 2009 sacks were the 2009 sacks came straight up the middle.

yippee, pro bowls. the offense was also a good to great qb away from making do with the weapons they had. at least his td:int ratio wasn't anywhere near as bad. maybe that had something to do with the best run game in the nfl...

THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANY ******* WEAPONS! Did you read? Have the slightest awareness of what crap was on their WR/TE depth chart? They had Bowe to throw to with Moeaki sometimes keeping the safety honest, and that is it. Teams figured out that passing game really quick. They had no other receivers. None. What are you even talking about "good to great qb away from making do..."??? Cassel did as well as any QB in the NFL could do with what they had in 2010.



see, there's a point where you're basically saying it's everyone's fault but cassel's. he's never to blame for poor play, apparently. yeah, the charles injury sucked. matt cassel doesn't have the ability to lift the rest of the team, and when there's no one else there to lift him up, he flounders.

What rest of the team was he supposed to lift up? Jerame Urban and Terrence Copper? The gameplan and team and everything was terrible the first two weeks. Everything about the Chiefs offense was just wretched from how they used the pre-season (the injuries were irrelevant the first two weeks). They got things together in Week 3 and stopped playing Urban and Copper. When he finally got a couple guys to throw to, they started to take off. Then the OL completely fell apart on him in the Miami and Denver games. What can you do?

Cassel has some flaws, but he's a solid QB. He'll win games for you. It's not about him being surrounded by loads of talent, it's about him not being surrounded by complete crap. The two seasons he wasn't surrounded by complete crap, he won 11 and 10 games. The 10-win team had terrible talent at WR save for one really good receiver.

D-Unit
11-23-2011, 07:21 PM
I don't see a problem claiming Orton, KC will suck with or without him, maybe they do win a couple more games with him, but if we really need a new QB and Pioli sees this, signing Orton isn't going to stop him from drafting the one he wants, I do expect them to draft a QB this year Pioli said last year that this team wants to get to the point where they draft a QB every year, its just a matter of which round they will draft one in, add to this the possiblity of a comp. pick and I am more than fine with this.

I'm more concerned that they still feel Cassel is the anwser, even though he's what 29 and seems to have regressed, at best he's inconsistent and is nothing more than a backup, I think the only person that doesn't realize this is nepg.
What's the feeling on Ricky Stanzi?

nepg
11-23-2011, 07:21 PM
Also, glad to see Orton is in good spirits and ready to report. That's encouraging.

vidae
11-23-2011, 07:24 PM
What's the feeling on Ricky Stanzi?

He isn't ready to see the field but I'd rather throw him in there now then pretend like he's the future starter for us.

nepg
11-23-2011, 07:24 PM
What's the feeling on Ricky Stanzi?
The coaching staff loves him, but he's a rookie QB.

Because of the lock-out, he hasn't had much time to do anything but scout team duty. He hasn't had reps like Locker and Ponder had before they were called into action. Add that the OL has been really terrible the last three weeks and you can see why they're not eager to send him out there. Even if they lose 3 games and are out of it, I don't see them throwing him into a game unless the OL play improves significantly.

chief_fan88
11-23-2011, 07:28 PM
Cassel has some flaws, but he's a solid QB. He'll win games for you. It's not about him being surrounded by loads of talent, it's about him not being surrounded by complete crap. The two seasons he wasn't surrounded by complete crap, he won 11 and 10 games. The 10-win team had terrible talent at WR save for one really good receiver.

Here's the problem, the talent we had from last year didn't suddenly turn to ****, he lost Moeaki who you really don't give much credit to, and his OC, he also gained Breaston and Baldwin after the bye, and you can't really use the no offseason thing, by what week 8 he should be getting the offense if he is a good as you say, and he Damn well should have been able to lead us to wins againts Miami and Denver, and why have there been other QBs with the same offseason that were playing better than Cassel, he is what he is a back-up, he will never lead this team to a super bowl much less win one, and I question weather he can lead us to a playoff win, he couldn't last year, and he couldn't even do it in New England with way more talent.

vidae
11-23-2011, 07:31 PM
Cassel won't lead the Chiefs to a playoff win, but neither will Orton, so I guess it doesn't matter too much.

chief_fan88
11-23-2011, 07:32 PM
What's the feeling on Ricky Stanzi?

I think the FO and coaching staff likes him, but he's been inactive all season before last week, I honestly don't think they want to play him at all this season but will give him more of a chance in the upcoming years. I wish they would play him, I thought he was the best QB in preseason, albeit that was preseason and generally against 2nd string or lower.

nobodyinparticular
11-23-2011, 07:32 PM
Cassel has some flaws, but he's a solid QB. He'll win games for you. It's not about him being surrounded by loads of talent, it's about him not being surrounded by complete crap. The two seasons he wasn't surrounded by complete crap, he won 11 and 10 games. The 10-win team had terrible talent at WR save for one really good receiver.

How many games has Cassel ever "won" for a team? The best you can hope for is that he allows the other talent on the team to win the game for you and maybe he won't screw up. This is not a guy who "wins" many games for you.

vidae
11-23-2011, 07:35 PM
How many games has Cassel ever "won" for a team? The best you can hope for is that he allows the other talent on the team to win the game for you and maybe he won't screw up. This is not a guy who "wins" many games for you.

Zero. And he never will be the reason a game is WON. He'll be the reason games aren't lost, and for some people that is enough, but it isn't enough for me.

But I'm in the minority! Bring on Neckbeard!

Splat
11-23-2011, 07:50 PM
This thread.

http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/af59/vestaxpro/Joker_popcorn.gif

nobodyinparticular
11-23-2011, 07:53 PM
Zero. And he never will be the reason a game is WON. He'll be the reason games aren't lost, and for some people that is enough, but it isn't enough for me.


I will agree 100% on Cassel's ability to win games. If you sport a ridiculously good defense to go along with ridiculously good RBs and WRs, then I could see the notion of "don't mess with a good thing" if you win with a game manager. However, Cassel is middling-to-lower end game manager and the Chiefs don't have that great supporting cast. Kansas City is in prime shape to grab a high pick, game changing QB to vault them into a consistent double-digit win team. If they somehow lose out enough to grab a guy like Landry Jones or Matt Barkley or even RGIII, they need to do it.

Or, in the middle of the season, they can trade two 1st rounders for a former #1 overall pick who has knee, elbow and shoulder problems, who is doing little more than sitting on the couch drinking Bud Light all day.

vidae
11-23-2011, 07:55 PM
That is one of the biggest problems with this franchise. The Chiefs have never drafted and developed a QB that has won them a playoff game. Ever. In the history of this franchise. That really needs to change.

And we'll hopefully be in prime position to change it. That's is really why I dislike the Orton signing. It could put all of that into jeopardy.

Raiderz4Life
11-23-2011, 07:56 PM
He's not Trent Dilfer. He makes plays and is clearly in command of the offense. He's not "along for the ride" in the least.


What?? Matt Cassel is totally along for the ride. He doesn't command that offense. Its not tailored with him in the center...its tailored around Charles. Cassel's only job is to not **** up.


Or, in the middle of the season, they can trade two 1st rounders for a former #1 overall pick who has knee, elbow and shoulder problems, who is doing little more than sitting on the couch drinking Bud Light all day.

I'm guessin you referrin to Rusty Knob?

BeerBaron
11-23-2011, 08:10 PM
So, I was reading that, after analysis by people more familiar with the compensatory pick system, that Orton will fetch around a 6th round pick.

And I'm assuming that's if the Chiefs sign no one.

nobodyinparticular
11-23-2011, 08:35 PM
That is one of the biggest problems with this franchise. The Chiefs have never drafted and developed a QB that has won them a playoff game. Ever. In the history of this franchise. That really needs to change.

And we'll hopefully be in prime position to change it. That's is really why I dislike the Orton signing. It could put all of that into jeopardy.

The Raiders have been in the same boat for I don't know how many years. They had success with in the 60's and early 70s with Lamonica (via trade), 70s with Kenny Stabler (drafted in '68), early 80s with Jim Plunkett and 00s with Gannon (FA). Apart from those 4, the Raiders have been quarterbacked by such luminaries as Marc Wilson, Jay Schroeder, Todd Marinovich, Jeff Hostetler, Jeff George and Kerry Collins. In the recent years, of course, there were a host of bumbling idiots employed at the QB position, highlighted of course by Jamarcus Russell.

The thing about acquiring QBs through FA and trades is that it severely limits the window of opportunity. Take the Gannon years for example. The Raiders experience great offensive success with Rich Gannon at the helm, but this window of success was limited by the fact that he joined the Raiders at 34 years old.

Of course the Raiders also represent a cautionary tale in this argument as they finally attempted to fix their QB issue with a top draft pick in 2007, that that set them back a half decade.

At the end of the day, however, it seems better to try for a top notch QB who can lead your team to success--especially in today's NFL--than to try to limp along with castoffs from other teams. Every once in a while you get lucky like the Rams with Kurt Warner or Drew Brees, but for the most part you will find yourself going from mediocre QB to mediocre QB--employing a host of QBs who will never have the ability to lift your franchise from the middle of the pack into elite status.

vidae
11-23-2011, 08:39 PM
At the end of the day, however, it seems better to try for a top notch QB who can lead your team to success--especially in today's NFL--than to try to limp along with castoffs from other teams. Every once in a while you get lucky like the Rams with Kurt Warner or Drew Brees, but for the most part you will find yourself going from mediocre QB to mediocre QB--employing a host of QBs who will never have the ability to lift your franchise from the middle of the pack into elite status.

That is it EXACTLY. That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, and I'm sick and tired of doing things this way. What has it gotten us? We haven't been to the Super Bowl since 1969, and even then Len Dawson was originally drafted by the Steelers.

I'm sick of doing things the same way. I want to try something different.

nobodyinparticular
11-23-2011, 08:58 PM
That is it EXACTLY. That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, and I'm sick and tired of doing things this way. What has it gotten us? We haven't been to the Super Bowl since 1969, and even then Len Dawson was originally drafted by the Steelers.

I'm sick of doing things the same way. I want to try something different.

More on the Raiders and QBs: they have used a total of 3 1st round picks on QBs--Marc Wilson ('80), Todd Marinovich ('91) and Jamarcus Russell ('07). Marc Wilson didn't hurt the franchise too much because they still had Jim Plunkett. Jamarcus Russell was a big bust, but there weren't exactly any better QBs in that draft (absolutely horrible QB class by the way). They definitely could have used a guy like Calvin Johnson or Adrian Peterson. But Marinovich... This draft pick was a franchise changer. He was out of the NFL in two years. TWO years!!! And the QB taken just 9 picks later? Brett Favre.

I'm may make a post about this later, but can you imagine how we would be talking about the Raiders franchise if the Raiders had swapped QB picks with Atlanta? How would the franchise--heck, even the NFL--be different if the Raiders had taken Brett Favre over that pot smoking a-hole?

Mind. Blown.

TonyGfortheTD
11-23-2011, 09:01 PM
Fire Pioli

Brent
11-23-2011, 09:06 PM
Never knew Kyle Orton was this good to be worthy of such a long thread.
Unlike so many of the threads you start, right?

vidae
11-23-2011, 09:16 PM
The Chiefs first round QBs:

1979 - Steve Fuller - 23rd overall
1983 - Todd Blackledge - 7th overall, who we took over Jim Kelly AND Dan Marino

That is it. In the history of the Kansas Chiefs franchise, we've taken two QBs in the first round. That is actually a lot less than I thought I'd find, damn.

Hopefully 2012 is the year we take our third, and it'd be hard for him to have less success than our previous two first round QBs.

nobodyinparticular
11-23-2011, 09:19 PM
The Chiefs first round QBs:

1979 - Steve Fuller - 23rd overall
1983 - Todd Blackledge - 7th overall, who we took over Jim Kelly AND Dan Marino

That is it. In the history of the Kansas Chiefs franchise, we've taken two QBs in the first round. That is actually a lot less than I thought I'd find, damn.

Hopefully 2012 is the year we take our third, and it'd be hard for him to have less success than our previous two first round QBs.


Wow. Blackledge over 2 HOFers. That's rough.

nepg
11-23-2011, 09:26 PM
Here's the problem, the talent we had from last year didn't suddenly turn to ****, he lost Moeaki who you really don't give much credit to, and his OC

You're right, I didn't give enough credit to Moeaki. He was probably 65% of the passing game last year because he was able to keep safeties from cheating towards Bowe. Teams with good defenses easily were able to counter this, and that's when the passing game fell apart. When Moeaki was hurt, they had nothing to keep teams from cheating on Bowe (and didn't this year until Baldwin started lining up in the wing).

...he also gained Breaston and Baldwin after the bye, and you can't really use the no offseason thing, by what week 8 he should be getting the offense if he is a good as you say

Yeah, it took a few weeks for Cassel and Breaston to develop good chemistry. The off-season certainly hurt their ability to be an effective passing offense in the first few weeks with Moeaki & Baldwin out and little time to work with Breaston....and then playing Breaston out of position.

The offense looked really good with the B's at WR. Especially when Baldwin lined up in the wing. The Baldwin situation really hurt the offense with everything else that happened to the team. Starting with the Miami game (Baldwin's 3rd game), the OL just ******* fell apart. The offensive gameplanning also failed to evolve with the emergence of these weapons in the passing game.

and he Damn well should have been able to lead us to wins againts Miami and Denver

Do you remember the OL in those games? Cassel didn't play that well in the Denver game, but every time they started to get something going on offense, the OL shat the bed. The OL just didn't even show up for Miami.

and why have there been other QBs with the same offseason that were playing better than Cassel

=_=... Do you not pay any attention to the Chiefs at all? They used the pre-season completely differently than the other teams in the NFL. And then everything else that's already been mentioned also factors.

he is what he is a back-up, he will never lead this team to a super bowl much less win one, and I question weather he can lead us to a playoff win, he couldn't last year

That's such a stupid argument. "He is what he is." No evidence to support that he is what you think he is. Just a cliche and nothing.

and he couldn't even do it in New England with way more talent.

New England was an 11-5 team that missed the playoffs.... I don't think anyone in New England was questioning whether he could win a playoff game if they got there. He was damn solid by the end of the year.

And New England didn't have more talent than the Chiefs do right now. They had Randy Moss and Wes Welker. Even if you could name another player on that offense, do you think that player is better than the player the Chiefs should have (i.e. including injured players) at the same position? Logan Mankins over Lilja and the list pretty much ends there.

vidae
11-23-2011, 09:34 PM
=_=... Do you not pay any attention to the Chiefs at all? They used the pre-season completely differently than the other teams in the NFL. And then everything else that's already been mentioned also factors.

This is the second time you've used this pretentious attitude towards another Chiefs poster. The first time was you saying that they didn't understand how offense works. It stops now. I'm sick and tired of seeing it.


That's such a stupid argument. "He is what he is." No evidence to support that he is what you think he is. Just a cliche and nothing.


Except, you know, his play on the field? But other than that you're right. There is no evidence to suggest that he isn't a very good QB.

But I guess once again it is everyone elses fault but his. This is seriously tiresome.

TheMatriculator
11-23-2011, 09:48 PM
Wow. Blackledge over 2 HOFers. That's rough.

Actually it's worse. 1979, the year they took Fuller was the year the Niners drafted Joe Montana in the 3rd round.

Nalej
11-23-2011, 09:57 PM
Fire Pioli

Then hire Pioli

#Patriots

vidae
11-23-2011, 09:58 PM
I don't think Pioli is necessarily the problem here anyway. He will be if he hires McDaniels to replace Haley though.

bored of education
11-23-2011, 10:15 PM
1. The front office guys, besides regional scouts are thinking we have to draft RG3, Barkley or someone next year in the top ten.
A. If they think they are going to be drafting in the top ten, they all should be fired.
2. They still have Cassel two years under contract, we as dumbasses would love for them to cut ties and draft a guy to develop in the first.
3. Name a better option with less strings attached than this one for THIS YEAR?

I dont care that the Chiefs will most likely end up in the top 10, it's more of a slight to me if they stayed the course and decided **** IT LETS LOSE SO WE CAN GET A JR QB WHO HAS YET TO OFFICIALLY DECLARE.

personally, I hate this move because I would rather have Luck, Barkley, Jones, Tannehill, Wilson, whoever than end up winning 7-8 games and not being able to get any of those guys. (all hypothetical scenarios). But as a front office they cannot think like that.

nepg
11-23-2011, 10:27 PM
This is the second time you've used this pretentious attitude towards another Chiefs poster. The first time was you saying that they didn't understand how offense works. It stops now. I'm sick and tired of seeing it.

I know it's a lot easier for me to be positive about the team because I have the Patriots, but I think you've seen that it's more that I have a more even-keeled approach to evaluating the team. Sorry, but negativity and fickleness bugs the **** out of me.

And so do blanket statements and cliches that are basically cut & pasted from the radio.

Except, you know, his play on the field? But other than that you're right. There is no evidence to suggest that he isn't a very good QB.

But I guess once again it is everyone elses fault but his. This is seriously tiresome.

fo6u_0XahBc

People keep saying that to me "it's everyone's fault but Cassel's". That's not what I'm saying at all...I'm countering the silly point you try to make by acting like Cassel is the reason they aren't good and that they can't win with Cassel. Which is crap. They've had a ton of other issues and a team with a ton of depth issues and one receiver went to the playoffs in 2010...

The team suffered from the lockout more than any other by a wide margin, had some injuries, had issues getting an offensive plan together, and just was obviously not where they should have been early in the year. They needed that off-season to put this offense together properly.

That's really what they're lacking. Full off-season, a RT, #2 TE, and #2 RB and this offense can match any other in the NFL. They're an ILB on defense away from being very close to elite on that side of the ball, too.

TACKLE
11-23-2011, 11:00 PM
fo6u_0XahBc

Great point you made here. You proved he can slightly underthrow a deep ball in a clean pocket with no pressure in his face. I'm so impressed. You are right, they don't need to draft a QB!

vidae
11-23-2011, 11:00 PM
I don't know what the bigger joke is.. that you honestly think an offseason and adding some depth pieces will all of the sudden make Matt Cassel not suck at playing Quarterback, or that you think the Chiefs are legitimate Super Bowl contenders next year.

Whatever, I'm done. This really solves nothing and going back and forth about the same thing is just a waste of time.

LonghornsLegend
11-25-2011, 12:14 PM
The team suffered from the lockout more than any other by a wide margin.

You say this pretty confidently, any evidence as to how you could actually know, or prove any of this? Because the only thing that changed was the OC. Yet you have a team like the Bengals who are right in the middle of the playoff hunt with a rookie at QB, and their go to WR a rookie. But yea, I'm sure Cassell and Bowe needed off-season workouts together more then those 2 by a wide margin.



Or how about the Niners. Incorporating a brand new Head Coach, assistant coaches, and scheme all during the lock-out. Somehow they managed to do just fine.


Every team had to suffer through the lock-out. What makes KC suffer so much more then everyone else?

Raiderz4Life
11-25-2011, 12:44 PM
You say this pretty confidently, any evidence as to how you could actually know, or prove any of this? Because the only thing that changed was the OC. Yet you have a team like the Bengals who are right in the middle of the playoff hunt with a rookie at QB, and their go to WR a rookie. But yea, I'm sure Cassell and Bowe needed off-season workouts together more then those 2 by a wide margin.



Or how about the Niners. Incorporating a brand new Head Coach, assistant coaches, and scheme all during the lock-out. Somehow they managed to do just fine.


Every team had to suffer through the lock-out. What makes KC suffer so much more then everyone else?

Because, obviously, all those other teams had underground TCs and KC was the only one who played by the book. Duh!!

nepg
11-25-2011, 12:56 PM
You say this pretty confidently, any evidence as to how you could actually know, or prove any of this? Because the only thing that changed was the OC. Yet you have a team like the Bengals who are right in the middle of the playoff hunt with a rookie at QB, and their go to WR a rookie. But yea, I'm sure Cassell and Bowe needed off-season workouts together more then those 2 by a wide margin.

The Bengals added two players to their offense that were just replacements for roles they already had incorporated into the offense. The Chiefs added two players on offense at roles they didn't have the last 2 years and one of them was a free agent. The Bengals offensive gameplanning and playcalling has also just been better.

There's also a huge difference between a 4-12 team that needs some work and a 10-6 team that needs some work.


Or how about the Niners. Incorporating a brand new Head Coach, assistant coaches, and scheme all during the lock-out. Somehow they managed to do just fine.

They had almost zero turnover with their roster.

Every team had to suffer through the lock-out. What makes KC suffer so much more then everyone else?

The Chiefs were a playoff team that still had to completely rebuild their passing game. They had a very basic passing game that involved Moeaki pulling a safety to keep the defense from cheating towards Bowe. But they had nothing. They needed an outside receiver opposite Bowe and a slot receiver to become a really effective passing attack. They got those things eventually but were unable to build a system around the new weapons because they couldn't work with the players.

They were also a team that lacked depth and needed to bring in a lot of UDFAs and FAs to OTAs, mini camps, and training camps to create competition and raise the level of play from the depth players and young starters. If you saw the team in the pre-season, you'd understand how bad the roster was. They couldn't get anything going in those games because the depth players were such crap. This was a team that was trying to figure out who to keep rather than who to cut.

The other thing that hurt the team is Todd Haley's approach to the shortened off-season. Every other team in the NFL did it one way, and the Chiefs did it another. They put almost zero emphasis on football and execution and were far more concerned with conditioning.

It's harder to go from 10-6 to 12-4 than it is to go from 4-12 to 12-4. There's not as much room for error for that 10-6 team. The way 2010 ended for them, they really needed that full off-season to get their **** together. With a real off-season, we wouldn't see the problems the Chiefs are having.

LonghornsLegend
11-25-2011, 02:10 PM
The Bengals added two players to their offense that were just replacements for roles they already had incorporated into the offense. The Chiefs added two players on offense at roles they didn't have the last 2 years and one of them was a free agent.

I honestly, cannot believe your even trying to make this point. Your trying to argue bringing in a slot WR(that knew Todd Haley's system from AZ, forgot that point though huh) is tougher for a team then starting with a newly drafted QB who didn't get the playbook until late and is throwing to a rookie as the #1 WR, and Jerome Simpson as the #2(who is a rookie essentially as well).


Seriously? So adding the two most important pieces to their offense, in a strike shortened off-season(again, 1 guy is a QB after all), isn't a big deal because they were, as you put it, "replacements for roles they already had incorporated". Wow.


But Steve Breaston coming in to play in an offense that he was drafted into was brain surgery?



It's really hard to take any of that post seriously. I won't waste anymore time trying to explain that rationale. At least all of us at DC know that the Chiefs were the only team in the NFL to make any roster changes what so ever. Nobody else made any changes with their coaching staff, playbook, or personnel, just the Chiefs.

nobodyinparticular
11-25-2011, 02:25 PM
There's also a huge difference between a 4-12 team that needs some work and a 10-6 team that needs some work... It's harder to go from 10-6 to 12-4 than it is to go from 4-12 to 12-4. There's not as much room for error for that 10-6 team.
And that's a sig quote.

Really, I would love to understand the logic behind this one, but I won't ask for it. It just isn't there. Now if you said it is easier to go from 4-12 to 6-10 than it is to go from 10-6 to 12-4 I would understand the logic. But it's easier to add 8 winds than it is to add 2 wins? Right.

Let's also keep in mind that KC's schedule this year favored them in that one of their record-matched opponents went from first to worst (Indy). But again, there isn't logic in the argument so it's worthless trying to discuss it with you logically.

jth1331
11-25-2011, 02:25 PM
The Bengals added two players to their offense that were just replacements for roles they already had incorporated into the offense. The Chiefs added two players on offense at roles they didn't have the last 2 years and one of them was a free agent. The Bengals offensive gameplanning and playcalling has also just been better.

There's also a huge difference between a 4-12 team that needs some work and a 10-6 team that needs some work.




They had almost zero turnover with their roster.



The Chiefs were a playoff team that still had to completely rebuild their passing game. They had a very basic passing game that involved Moeaki pulling a safety to keep the defense from cheating towards Bowe. But they had nothing. They needed an outside receiver opposite Bowe and a slot receiver to become a really effective passing attack. They got those things eventually but were unable to build a system around the new weapons because they couldn't work with the players.

They were also a team that lacked depth and needed to bring in a lot of UDFAs and FAs to OTAs, mini camps, and training camps to create competition and raise the level of play from the depth players and young starters. If you saw the team in the pre-season, you'd understand how bad the roster was. They couldn't get anything going in those games because the depth players were such crap. This was a team that was trying to figure out who to keep rather than who to cut.

The other thing that hurt the team is Todd Haley's approach to the shortened off-season. Every other team in the NFL did it one way, and the Chiefs did it another. They put almost zero emphasis on football and execution and were far more concerned with conditioning.

It's harder to go from 10-6 to 12-4 than it is to go from 4-12 to 12-4. There's not as much room for error for that 10-6 team. The way 2010 ended for them, they really needed that full off-season to get their **** together. With a real off-season, we wouldn't see the problems the Chiefs are having.

Just man up and admit the Chiefs were lucky last year playing a soft schedule in a bad division, and their true colors are showing this year.

cmarq83
11-25-2011, 02:25 PM
Cassel is obviously a guy with his limitations. His pocket awareness sucks, and his deep ball can be extremely inaccurate at times, but in the end teams could still do a lot worse than him. He's probably in the 14-20th ranked QB range in the NFL right now.

He's taken a slightly disproportionate amount of blame so far this season. No he has not played well, but most of the team has regressed, and the injuries really added up. If you can upgrade the spot safely then do it, but like I've seen with some Chiefs posters saying that QB is need 1,2, and 3 which is being a little dramatic. Under the right conditions Cassel can get it done. He may not be a Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers type who can get it done under any conditions, but playing the QB lottery probably won't get them that type of guy either.

If a guy like Barkley or Griffin is there for the taking then by all means take them because the Chiefs probably won't be picking this high again for a while, but they could really set themselves back if they end up picking a guy like Tannehill or Jones just for the sake of picking a QB. They aren't like the Seahawks or the Redskins, and just picking anybody won't necessarily improve the situation.

LonghornsLegend
11-25-2011, 02:28 PM
And that's a sig quote.

I didn't even want to get into all that. It was all sig quote worthy honestly. He dropped some gems with that one.

Raiderz4Life
11-25-2011, 02:36 PM
I didn't even want to get into all that. It was all sig quote worthy honestly. He dropped some gems with that one.

His whole argument was one big contradiction. I read it and when I finished there was a big "?" on my face.

Splat
11-25-2011, 02:36 PM
Fire Pioli

Wait what?

shane_man
11-26-2011, 01:38 AM
2005
10-6
New England Patriots(12-4)
Kansas City Chiefs(9-7)
Washington Redskins(5-11)


4-12
New York Jets(10-6)
Tennessee Titans(8-8)
Oakland Raiders(2-14)
Green Bay Packers(8-8)
San Francisco 49ers(7-9)

2006

10-6
New York Jets(4-12)
Philadelphia Eagles(8-8)
New Orleans(7-9)

4-12
Cleveland Browns(10-6)
Tampa Bay Bucs(9-7)

2007

10-6
Pittsburgh Steelers(12-4)
Cleveland Browns(4-12)
Tennessee Titans(13-3)
New York Giants(12-4)
Seattle Seahawks(4-12)

4-12
New York Jets(9-7)
Kansas City Chiefs(2-14)
Oakland Raiders(5-11)
Atlanta Falcons(11-5)

2008

10-6
Minnesota Vikings(12-4)

4-12
Cleveland Browns(5-11)
Cincinnatti Bengals4-11-1(10-6)
Seattle Seahawks(5-11)

2009

10-6
New England Patriots(14-2)
Cincinnatti Bengals(4-12)
Arizona Cardinals(5-11)

4-12
Kansas City Chiefs(10-6)
Washington Redskins(6-10)

2010

10-6
Indianapolis Colts(will not be 12-4)
Kansas City Chiefs(will not be 12-4)
Philadelphia Eagles(will not be 12-4)
New York Giants(probably won't be 12-4)
Green Bay Packers(better)
Tampa Bay Buccaneers(will not be 12-4)

4-12
Buffalo Bills
Cincinnatti Bengals
Denver Broncos
All three could be 10-6 teams.



Not that i subscribe to that line of thinking. I think alot of it has to do with quality teams. And as you can see... The quality franchises who had 10-6 seasons generally followed it up with an improvement. But there is alot of slinky action from worst-first type stuff which is 100% about schedule.

In a sense. It's easier to go from a 4 win team to a 10 win team because of the ****** strength of schedule you will get. Then it is to go from a 10 win team to a 12 win team if you are the type of team who is a 10 win team based only upon your strength of schedule.

Basically you would expect the Patriots to be a 10 win team as a minimum with Brady at QB. Therefore it's not as hard for them to jump up 2 wins. Compare that to say... The Cowboys who are seriously benefitting off a poor strength of schedule this year and could very well be a 10 win team. But it will be much harder for them to become a 12 win team next year. Strength of schedule improves and we will find out how good the coaching staff really is this offseason.

Tangents... FOR THE WIN~!