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View Full Version : Is Vontaze Burfict Overrated?


Buc Baller12
11-22-2011, 05:00 PM
mind you; i was a big Burfict fan before the year started; but after watching him play this year i am a bit skeptical; i had him graded as a early 1st rounder but at best i see him as a mid 1st from that 17-20 range. I love the nasty demanor but he needs to learn how to control himself; he needs a fine coach in the pros. From what i have seen he plays undiscplined poor gap control; always out of place; roams around too much

shylo3716
11-22-2011, 05:06 PM
We want him!!!!

http://steelerstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/nfl-draft-logo.jpg

http://www.markrampulla.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/philly_eagles_car_magnet.jpg

Sloopy
11-22-2011, 05:21 PM
This is already a thread, use your search function and bump it.

cajuncorey
11-22-2011, 10:48 PM
anybody that gets called ray lewis is overated

bigbuc
11-23-2011, 12:10 AM
anybody that gets called ray lewis is overated

YES!!!!!!!

Razor
11-23-2011, 04:18 AM
He might be, but you can't deny his talent. I wouldn't mind us drafting him and have him play over Spikes or even converting Taze to OLB. The guy can play and I love his demeanor on the field.

phlysac
11-23-2011, 07:08 AM
anybody that gets called ray lewis is overated

Unless you're reading a Patrick Willis scouting report from 2006-2007

;P

SolidGold
11-23-2011, 07:40 AM
Yup, he is a hard hitting walking 15 yd penalty with a weird name that attracts attention.

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 08:10 AM
Yup, he is a hard hitting walking 15 yd penalty with a weird name that attracts attention.

Alright, since we aren't bumping the other thread I'll give my .02:

If you go by standards of people calling him the next Ray Lewis, then yes, he's overrated. This isn't a knock on him though; it's similar to how people are calling Luck a sure fire HoF. There is just no way to know if Taze will live up to the Ray Lewis billing.

However, Taze is much more than a hard hitting walking 15 yard penalty. He is probably one of the more technically sound ILB in this class, great ability shedding blocks and moving through traffic. Is extremely quick into the backfield when called on to blitz. He does have solid tackling technique despite his hard hitting ways. Amazing side-line to side-line speed. Awesome instincts. Solid enough for an ILB in coverage. EXTREMELY ATHLETIC, absolutely a top physical specimen in this draft.

Yes he has caused penalties but for every dumb penalty he makes he gets one for reputation alone. Overall, if you DON'T want Taze on your team, your a fool

SolidGold
11-23-2011, 08:12 AM
I'd take Keuchly over Burfict. Burfict does make some impact plays but he doesn't play very disciplined football. Also, he has not lived up to the hype around him.

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 08:28 AM
I'd take Keuchly over Burfict. Burfict does make some impact plays but he doesn't play very disciplined football. Also, he has not lived up to the hype around him.

I think that some of his disappearances this year have actually come from him tying to rein in his emotions a bit. Once he finds that balance I imagine he will pick right back up.

However my rankings do go

1.Burfict
2. Kuechly
3. T'eo

So i give you that Kuechly is no consolation prize either, he's the real deal and I would be just as happy having him on my team. Really they aren't far away from each other as far as value in the draft, just different kind of prospects.

JBCX
11-23-2011, 10:10 AM
WAYYYY overrated.

This guy has a million dollar body and a ten-cent head. Any team that picks him in the first round will be grossly disappointed and likely have a bust on their hands.

SenorGato
11-23-2011, 10:14 AM
He was always at best a mid-late first....too wild and crazy, not enough polish....that said with proper coaching he'll be a better pro than college player....would make one hell of a replacement for Bart Scott.

JBCX
11-23-2011, 10:15 AM
I wouldn't TOUCH him earlier than the 2nd round at this point. Way too many questions about his character, instincts, and drive. Too raw to be a first-rounder, imho. In addition, LB prospects seemingly always fall in the draft due to their positional importance (or lack thereof).

killxswitch
11-23-2011, 10:19 AM
It seems like any good player from a known school will eventually be overrated because of the ease of access to scouting reports and the voice that the internet gives to anybody that wants to spout off with his opinion.

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 11:17 AM
WAYYYY overrated.

This guy has a million dollar body and a ten-cent head. Any team that picks him in the first round will be grossly disappointed and likely have a bust on their hands.

WOW AWESOME SCOUTING REPORT BRO!!!!!

I love that you used information to back up your argument... oh wait... nvm

For what reason will any team be grossly disappointed?

Why is he way overrated?


I wouldn't TOUCH him earlier than the 2nd round at this point. Way too many questions about his character, instincts, and drive. Too raw to be a first-rounder, imho. In addition, LB prospects seemingly always fall in the draft due to their positional importance (or lack thereof).

Actually his instincts and drive are the best part of his game. He has arguably the best instincts of any of the top 3 ILB prospects.

Don't just come into a thread and post stuff about a guy without A. supporting your opinion and B. don't state things that are simply untrue as some sort of quantifying evidence

BigBanger
11-23-2011, 11:58 AM
WOW AWESOME SCOUTING REPORT BRO!!!!!

I love that you used information to back up your argument... oh wait... nvm

For what reason will any team be grossly disappointed?

Why is he way overrated?
Information to backup a point. Okay...

Actually his instincts and drive are the best part of his game. He has arguably the best instincts of any of the top 3 ILB prospects.
WOW AWESOME SCOUTING REPORT BRO!!!!!

Don't just come into a thread and post stuff about a guy without A. supporting your opinion and B. don't state things that are simply untrue as some sort of quantifying evidence

You gave your two cents earlier and provided nothing to support your claims that he's good at anything you mentioned. Those were blanket statements that appear to be false. Yet you pass them off as fact. Take a bit of your own advice and try to be a little less biased.

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 12:18 PM
Information to backup a point. Okay...


WOW AWESOME SCOUTING REPORT BRO!!!!!



You gave your two cents earlier and provided nothing to support your claims that he's good at anything you mentioned. Those were blanket statements that appear to be false. Yet you pass them off as fact. Take a bit of your own advice and try to be a little less biased.

I stated my own observations, not just that he was bad or not worth a 1st round pick, I think he's worth a first round pick and stated why.

Meanwhile you fail to even have a point, so not quite sure why your here.

I mean unless it's because your just looking to fight or being a troll; what do you think of the actual topic at hand or do you have none?

BaLLiN
11-23-2011, 12:21 PM
Part of me is skewed because I am enthralled with his nasty demeanor, unrelenting pursuit, instincts, and intensity to throw his body through the OL/blocker.

When he is not making the tackle, most of the time he is involved. Runners avoid running through his gap and he also uses the blocker to seal off running lanes, appearing blocked but maintaining his gap.

However, he has some faults. He does play too wild as most have mentioned and looks like he abandons some responsibilities. IMO he is only average in coverage, but I live on the east coast so I do not get to see much. He doesn't wrap up often, goes for big hits ALL THE TIME. He needs to become a tad more disciplined. We want controlled chaos, he isn't even remotely there yet.

As far as character concerns, I have not heard anything off the field. On the field it is clear that referees have a bias against him due to his track record of cheap hits, nastiness, and probably opposing players/coaches complaining. He may have a screw loose, but sometimes you need one of those on your team in order to get fired up.

All in all, I would pick him first among the linebackers in this draft because of his ability to be an X factor. Kuechly and Te'o are both very good players, but i have not seen the kind of fire i see in Burfict in them.

TheSlinger
11-23-2011, 12:42 PM
Awesome instincts. Solid enough for an ILB in coverage.

I really disagree with these. I think his instincts suck. I think he freelances and often ignores his gap assignments. I also think he's often disinterested in coverage.

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 12:45 PM
Here you go Big Banger

LwKrdgwL7g0

Snap #1 Burfict gets in position to make the tackle and then pushes the pile when other tacklers latch on to the runner. Exactly what you want your 3-4 ILB to do.

Snap #2 gets in the lane and hits the runner low, runner gets away but is off balance and goes down shortly after

Snap #3 Gets of the blocker with ease and attempts to go low, misses a tackle here.

Snap # 4 gets by blocker and positions himself for tackle, doesn't over pursue makes gang tackle.

Through all of these he has gone low and attempted to make the tackle instead of going for the big hit, he squares up and makes the tackle.

Snap #5 get blocked low and goes down

Snap #6 doesn't bite on pump fake sees the screen play, gets off the blocker and would have blown up the screen play had the player actually caught the ball.

Snap #7 shows patients and squares up the runner to make the form tackle

Fg attempt, goes offsides.

Snap #8 Team gets a sack

Snap #9 gets off blocker and moves through traffic to tackle the runner

Snap #10 does not bight on pass action and maintains his zone

Snap #11 gets off the block but the runner is by him to the other side

Snap #12 shows patience and seals the cut back, squaring up and making the tackle

Snap #13 gets off his blocker, credited with tackle as the runner trips up (Still would have been in position)

Snap #14 makes the pre snap read, gets off the chip to his underneath zone and makes the athletic play to get the interception returns ball for about 35 yards

Then that maniac helps Barkley to his feet, omg so crazy

Snap #15 maintains a zone reads QB's eyes and moves into position to make the tackle on the receiver

Snap #16 comes through unblocked with a burst into the backfield and makes the gang tackle, pushes the pile.

Snap #17 does not bit on play action and makes the tackle on the receiver

Snap #18 after the catch takes appropriate angle on receiver to make the tackle

Snap #19 gets off blocker but fails to get there in time to make the tackle

Snap #20 gets blocked while trying to make the tackle

Snap #21 stuffs the gap and the run play ends.

Snap #22 gets off the blocker and stone walls the runner at the goal line

Snap #23 gets off the block a little late but still makes the tackle, could have made it earlier if he had been able to disengage sooner

Snap #24 fills the gap but runner cuts back to the outside

Snap #25 plays his zone makes tackle on the receiver after the catch.

Snap # 26 gets held could have made the play on the ball

Snap #27 reads the gets a little hindered by the low block but gets off it, incomplete pass

Do you want to waste any more of my time or do you feel sufficiently foolish?

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 12:47 PM
I really disagree with these. I think his instincts suck. I think he freelances and often ignores his gap assignments. I also think he's often disinterested in coverage.

Farthest thing from the truth, go watch the tape I just posted, he maintains his gaps on every play makes form tackles and pushes piles.

As far as pass coverage, again watch the tape he maintains his zones and does not bight on pass coverage. He reads the QB's eyes and moves to where the ball is thrown before its even released.

Diehard
11-23-2011, 01:23 PM
I think he has the ability to do very well at ILB at the next level, but he's still a little overrated as his wild/crazy side tends to draw attention (both positive and negative).

I think he'd do best going to a team that has strong defensive leadership that can instill some discipline and focus his intensity.

Sloopy
11-23-2011, 01:28 PM
I think he has the ability to do very well at ILB at the next level, but he's still a little overrated as his wild/crazy side tends to draw attention (both positive and negative).

I think he'd do best going to a team that has strong defensive leadership that can instill some discipline and focus his intensity.

He may still be overrated, but it's not to say that he isn't good as others would imply. I think he's still a solid first round pick, would love to get him on the Ravens, if it were the case he might actually live up to the Ray Lewis hype as he would be getting schooled by the Reverend Ray Lewis himself

SF Dolphin Fan
11-24-2011, 09:33 AM
He may not be Ray Lewis, but his ability to blow up a play will help defenses get off the field at the next level. He should be a difference maker and fall somewhere between Brian Cox and Ray Lewis.

FUNBUNCHER
11-24-2011, 10:14 AM
With NFL coaching I think Burfict has all the potential in the world to be an impact ILB.

I don't think Arizona State's coaches have really matured his game.

PossibleCabbage
11-24-2011, 11:54 PM
I think very much what he's put on tape this year doesn't live up to the hype he had coming into the year. Which pretty much guarantees the "he's overrated" charge. In terms of the NFL? I'm going to wait until he works out for scouts, since there are several questions.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a Rey Maualuga-esque tumble into the second round (Maualuga was the most hyped of the USC LBs coming into the 2008 season, and was the third drafted due mostly to bad senior tape and less than stellar workouts.)

SenorGato
11-25-2011, 12:36 AM
I think very much what he's put on tape this year doesn't live up to the hype he had coming into the year. Which pretty much guarantees the "he's overrated" charge. In terms of the NFL? I'm going to wait until he works out for scouts, since there are several questions.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a Rey Maualuga-esque tumble into the second round (Maualuga was the most hyped of the USC LBs coming into the 2008 season, and was the third drafted due mostly to bad senior tape and less than stellar workouts.)

Yeah just his position might make him a top of the 2nd type guy, but the talent being as high as it is...

Sloopy
11-25-2011, 07:28 AM
I think very much what he's put on tape this year doesn't live up to the hype he had coming into the year. Which pretty much guarantees the "he's overrated" charge. In terms of the NFL? I'm going to wait until he works out for scouts, since there are several questions.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a Rey Maualuga-esque tumble into the second round (Maualuga was the most hyped of the USC LBs coming into the 2008 season, and was the third drafted due mostly to bad senior tape and less than stellar workouts.)

Maualuga was a drunk, had been arrested for drinking and fighting and he ran a slow 40 due to a hamstring injury.

Thats why he dropped.

I'd venture to say the tape shows improvement. So what if he is not making stupid highlights of big hits this year. He has shown he can be technically sound and make form tackles.

If there is any hype that he hasn't lived up to it's that he isn't the mad man that everyone thought he was. So he gets knocked for being a head-case, but when he reins it in he is overrated?

onejayhawk
11-25-2011, 07:58 PM
For a first round LB, you want eitehr superior pass rush or great versatility. He brings neither. He is a thumper, no doubt, and pursues well. However, he does not have the nose for the ball you look for. It is hard to judge his coverage skills, because it is so rarely asked of him.

As for comparisons, both Ray Lewis and Ray Maualuga are unfair, so I will pick them up to kick them down the street. He reminds me of a bigger Bernard Pollard. I do not see the upside. I think there is real danger he is a two down 3-4 ILB, and nothing else.

With NFL coaching I think Burfict has all the potential in the world to be an impact ILB.

I don't think Arizona State's coaches have really matured his game.

I must admit that this is a possibility. We have seen it at the U for several years, before they cleaned house recently.

J

fenikz
11-25-2011, 08:01 PM
what? Burfict is an amazing pass rusher for a MLB and he has amazing insticts

fairly obvious that most of you have never watched a single game of his

onejayhawk
11-25-2011, 08:22 PM
what? Burfict is an amazing pass rusher for a MLB and he has amazing insticts

fairly obvious that most of you have never watched a single game of his

No. He is a good pass rusher in a straight ahead fashion.

As for the instincts, why is he not moving to to the hole quicker? He is a physical monster, but that is too much of his game. When he blows up a play, it is because he beats someone physically, not because he diagnosed. His willingness to stay at home and mind assignments is an open question, because he is always in power forward mode.

Dont get Me wrong, MB is a top ILB prospect. It is just that that is all he is. We have yet to see what he can do against players that can match him physically or counter him with superior technique. As noted above, this could be the fault of his coaches. It will be interesting to see what the All Star games tell us.

J

fenikz
11-25-2011, 08:28 PM
Honestly he needs to do a ton of work in the weight room, gets by entirely on natural athleticism & instincts, not ripped in any sense and even has a gut

Sloopy
11-25-2011, 08:33 PM
No. He is a good pass rusher in a straight ahead fashion.

As for the instincts, why is he not moving to to the hole quicker? He is a physical monster, but that is too much of his game. When he blows up a play, it is because beats someone physically, not because he diagnosed. His willingness to stay at home and mind assignments is an open question, because he is always in power forward mode.

J

First of all, he indeed is called to pass cover a lot, see my earlier post in this thread for a break down on this guy, very rarely bites on play action and maintains hiz zones wonderfully. Often reads the QB's eyes and makes a break on the ball as it's being released

His nose for the ball is unreal so I won't even bother responding to that nonsense

when he's called upon to blitz he has a great burst into the backfield, I can't believe your going to try and make the argument that an ILB should have better pass rushing skills. His are better than the other two top ILB prospects anyway so your argument is moot

As far as not diagnosing: I laughed real hard here, again look at my breakdown on each snap, the guy is making presnap reads and making adjustments. What more diagnosing do you want him to do?

Your comments about him always being in power forward mode lead me to believe that you are making these comments on reputation alone without having watched him this year. Again please read my snap by snap breakdown, the guy has excellent gap control and breaks down in the open field to make the form tackle.

onejayhawk
11-25-2011, 08:33 PM
Honestly he needs to do a ton of work in the weight room, gets by entirely on natural athleticism & instincts, not ripped in any sense and even has a gut

This I agree with 100%. Also the film room.

J

Sloopy
11-25-2011, 08:39 PM
For the record I'm not trying to say this guy is the next Ray Lewis by any stretch. Could he be? Yea but it takes more than being a good prospect to be Ray Lewis, it's hard work and dedication over your entire career.

The point is that while you can argue back and forth over his abilities here and there, he is by far the best ILB prospect in this draft and probably one of the least likely of the group to bust, unlike certain other posters would claim

TheSlinger
11-25-2011, 08:41 PM
what? Burfict is an amazing pass rusher for a MLB and he has amazing insticts

fairly obvious that most of you have never watched a single game of his

"You disagree with me so you've never seen him play!"

Awful.

Sloopy
11-25-2011, 08:44 PM
"You disagree with me so you've never seen him play!"

Awful.

Or maybe its just not true? Useful and constructive comment though...

Awful

TheSlinger
11-25-2011, 08:45 PM
Or maybe its just not true? Useful and constructive comment though...

Awful

It's about as constructive as his was.

Sloopy
11-25-2011, 08:48 PM
It's about as constructive as his was.

So what are YOUR thoughts on Vontaze Burfict? I would be interested to here your wise and insightful opinion which I value so highly

TheSlinger
11-25-2011, 08:50 PM
So what are YOUR thoughts on Vontaze Burfict? I would be interested to here your wise and insightful opinion which I value so highly

Obnoxious troll comments like this are not the way to stimulate conversation. I have my opinions but I know they're meaningless. It would be wise if you would take the same attitude. You might actually learn something.

Sloopy
11-25-2011, 08:52 PM
Obnoxious troll comments like this are not the way to stimulate conversation. I have my opinions but I know they're meaningless. It would be wise if you would take the same attitude. You might actually learn something.

Translation: "I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just trolling and have no actual input into the conversation at hand."

We were having stimulating conversation, in three posts you have managed to add nothing to it.

TheSlinger
11-25-2011, 08:55 PM
Translation: "I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just trolling and have no actual input into the conversation at hand."

We were having stimulating conversation, in three posts you have managed to add nothing to it.

I GAVE my thoughts earlier in this thread, genius. I had no interest in following it up because it was very clear after a comment like fenikz's there was no place for that here.

Sloopy
11-25-2011, 08:58 PM
Oh yea, I just looked and I was the one who actually responded to your post. Feel free to give you rebuttal. Until then, don't troll

TheSlinger
11-25-2011, 11:13 PM
Of course I'll preface this with the insanity of just looking at one game.

Here you go Big Banger

LwKrdgwL7g0

I can't help but point out some of the uploader comments... I'm assuming he's watched Burfict play, although I guess it's possible he put together the vid with his eyes closed or something.

Honestly I dont see him coming out this year. His draft stock is way down. he is having a terrible season

Maybe his tape is awful

His instincts are sub par and he is over aggresive. He over runs plays and he misreads a great deal of whats in front of him. I really thought as he got in the film room more his play recognition would improve but it looks worse this year then last


Yeah I havent liked his tape this year. Ive broken down 2 games and both have been subpar

Here are the plays where I disagree with you.

Snap #11 gets off the block but the runner is by him to the other side


This is because he missed his gap. #21 had this area covered but Burfict followed leaving the middle open for a big gain.

Snap #17 does not bit on play action and makes the tackle on the receiver


... after he made a 15 yard catch in Burfict's zone.

Snap #19 gets off blocker but fails to get there in time to make the tackle


Left his gap open again.

Snap #25 plays his zone makes tackle on the receiver after the catch.


You really can't give him credit for playing his zone when a receiver makes a 13 yard catch in it.

Do you want to waste any more of my time or do you feel sufficiently foolish?

This is just sad mr. message board hero.

Then watch his Illinois and Oregon vids and he's even worse than this.

jayceheathman
11-25-2011, 11:43 PM
He isn't as overrated as Andrew Luck at least.

Rosebud
11-25-2011, 11:52 PM
WAYYYY overrated.

This guy has a million dollar body and a ten-cent head. Any team that picks him in the first round will be grossly disappointed and likely have a bust on their hands.

He's the next JPP!! What a bust.

TheSlinger
11-26-2011, 03:27 AM
http://www.mockingthedraft.com/2011/11/26/2587441/vontaze-burfict-nfl-draft-arizona-state

niel89
11-26-2011, 04:04 AM
http://www.mockingthedraft.com/2011/11/26/2587441/vontaze-burfict-nfl-draft-arizona-state

I'm waiting for people to come out saying that it's all because the refs are targeting him. If he knows the refs are targeting him, then he needs to really keep himself in check. The guy can keep himself in control and it directly hurts his team. I'm pretty sure that I don't trust a guy like this to keep himself focused off the field (learning the playbook & film study) once I give him a big chunk of cash either.

Razor
11-26-2011, 05:24 AM
I don't think the refs are targeting Burfict, but I think they're aware of his style. The Pac-10 officiating does suck, however, but yeah. There are some concerns about Burfict's game. I wouldn't mind for us to draft him though, I'd love to have his rage on the NE defense.

Sloopy
11-26-2011, 09:03 AM
Of course I'll preface this with the insanity of just looking at one game.

I'm not going to sit here and dissect multiple tapes of a guy for YOUR convenience so that I can prove YOU wrong. I put up a tape of him against one of the best teams he has played this year. If you wan't to try and prove ME wrong, why don't you waste your own time and find your own tape of him and get back to me with it, I'm not going to do your work for you Mr. Awful.






This is because he missed his gap. #21 had this area covered but Burfict followed leaving the middle open for a big gain.

Like I said he got off the block but to the wrong side.


... after he made a 15 yard catch in Burfict's zone.
He had a middle zone and the throw was in between, the corner doesn't give him any help and he runs there as the ball is thrown not giving up any more yardage, sorry the ILB prospect isn't a safety.

Left his gap open again.

no no and no, the line blocks left and he fights through the block. The OLB tries to seal the edge but gets blocked out, Burfict just can't recover fast enough to make the play on the ball.


You really can't give him credit for playing his zone when a receiver makes a 13 yard catch in it.

The guy gets jammed to the inside to him. and again thrown in between his zone, still he makes the tackle before any extra yardage is gained.


This is just sad mr. message board hero.

Then watch his Illinois and Oregon vids and he's even worse than this.

So what you are telling me is that out of 27 plays or so, he makes 2-3 mistakes? BUST!!!!!

you act like the other top ILB prospects are insanely better than him and never make a mistake. Pretty poor argument

I didn't catch the Illinois game but I think he did pretty well against Oregon. However if you would like to pull up the video's and do your own analysis I would be happy to give you my thoughts on them, but I'm not going to do your work for you.

JBCX
11-26-2011, 10:45 AM
He's the next JPP!! What a bust.

I haven't been impressed with JPP despite his sack numbers this year. Overrated as a pass rusher and a liability in the run game.

I focused on him in the Seattle, Buffalo, New England, and latest Philly game, and not once did I see him "flash" on the screen. He occasionally falls into clean-up sacks or comes unblocked, or makes a routine tackle, but other than that, I don't see anything special. Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

Chris
11-26-2011, 01:34 PM
Or maybe its just not true? Useful and constructive comment though...

Awful

YouTube highlight videos are not game tape. Stop trying to convince people that they are and that you are actually qualified to analyze them.

Sloopy
11-26-2011, 02:14 PM
Here you go: I'll do this one for you anyway incase there was still any doubt about him...

lNbMnThnfIA

Snap #1 gets beat in coverage by a guy with 4.4 speed at least if not better

Snap #2 Minds his gap, shows patience and makes the gang tackle for loss

Snap #3 Minds his gap but QB keep to the other side.

Snap#4 This was a dumb play, whistles blew and brought the man to the ground anyway

Snap #5 Maintains his gap optioned the other way.

Snap #6 Great pursuit, takes on the blocker and lets his teammates get the tackle.

Snap #7 Deep pass incomplete

Snap #8 Throw outside, incomplete

Snap #9 Nice burst into the backfield, gets blocked but helps his team get the tackle

Snap #10. Deep throw

Snap #11 I have a problem with this penalty, the play clearly isn't blown dead until after Burfict makes the hit, this is him playing until the whistle and I'll take it every time. Had he not done it and by some means the back gets free its another 5 yards. Bad call on the refs part, one on reputation alone.

Snap #12 doesn't give up on the play and makes the tackle after the runner breaks one. even better, draws the penalty on the other team.

Snap #13 Comes in and lays the hit to stop forward progression

Snap # 14 fights the block and doesn't let him clear a way for the running back. Teams gets the tackle

Snap #15 GREAT angle on the receiver after the catch and makes the effort play for the tackle.

Snap #16 Bites on the play but recovers and gets back to the spot of the tackle before the runner goes down

Snap #17 Hard to see this one but he fights off the blocker and makes the tackle

Snap #18 pursues the QB a little but shows great agility to shift the other way, awesome pursuit and makes the shoestring tackle to bring down the runner.

Snap #19 gets juked a bit and the runner runs by him

Snap #20 Maintains his gap, doesn't make the tackle but what impresses me is that he was in the backfield but again doesn't give up on the play and chases it down from behind, if the fumble doesn't go out of bounds he might have recovered it.

Snap # 21 maintains his gap, ball gets bounced to the outside and he chases it down from behind

Snap #22 burst through the gap forcing the ball outside (gets held, no call)

Snap #23 doesn't give up and ends up assisting on the tackle

Snap # 24 Minds his gap, adjusts pushes the blocker and I think gets credited with the tackle there

Snap #25 fights through blocks and makes the tackle

Snap #26 maintains his gap, quick block and nice cut by the runner.

Snap #27 shows great patience, gets through traffic, good effort on the attempted tackle, not much more he could have done there slows momentum though and thus the tackle is made by the second guy.

Snap #28 gets blocked and hesitates too long, needs to get off the block. Still doesn't give up on the play and almost ends up still making the tackle

Snap #29 maintains his gap shows patience, comes up and makes the tackle.

Snap # 30 HOLY BURST INTO THE BACKFIELD BATMAN. Doesn't make the play but certainly blew that play up

Snap #31 maintains gap gets off block and gets in on the pile

I'd actually say this game was better than his USC game, doesn't make a signature play like the INT but certainly plays well all game and shows great effort. Gets a stupid penalty that was his fault but also gets one that was highly questionable.

Sloopy
11-26-2011, 02:16 PM
YouTube highlight videos are not game tape. Stop trying to convince people that they are and that you are actually qualified to analyze them.

It's not a highlight video, its every snap of his against a single opponent which is the best game tape I have access to. At least I'm trying to use something to back up my claims.

You can question my qualification to analyze them but I'm just as qualified as anyone else here. Do you have contradictory analysis?

Again, your comments are about as useless as the rest of the people coming in.

What are YOUR thoughts on Taze? Do you have none? Then why are you even bothering to comment

PossibleCabbage
11-26-2011, 02:23 PM
For the record, I have never watched "tape." "Tape" is not available to me. I have watched games, in fact I have watched a lot of games, but the actual recordings of football games that are relevant for scouting purposes (i.e. the 22s) are not made available to me (nor are they likely to be available to you.)

Saying "you should watch tape" about a guy really isn't useful, since almost nobody who has said it has ever watched any "tape" on the guy, and whoever they're saying it to doesn't actually have "tape" available to them.

You can't really scout effectively based on televised broadcasts, since they don't show the entire offense and defense continuously on every play. That's the "tape" that the scouts actually make their evaluations based on.

The best I can do is "watch games in person" but logistics make this virtually impossible to do for a wide variety of prospects. I live nowhere close to Arizona State and Arizona State didn't play any games near me this year.

Sloopy
11-26-2011, 02:29 PM
For the record, I have never watched "tape." "Tape" is not available to me. I have watched games, in fact I have watched a lot of games, but the actual recordings of football games that are relevant for scouting purposes (i.e. the 22s) are not made available to me (nor are they likely to be available to you.)

Saying "you should watch tape" about a guy really isn't useful, since almost nobody who has said it has ever watched any "tape" on the guy, and whoever they're saying it to doesn't actually have "tape" available to them.

You can't really scout effectively based on televised broadcasts, since they don't show the entire offense and defense continuously on every play. That's the "tape" that the scouts actually make their evaluations based on.

The best I can do is "watch games in person" but logistics make this virtually impossible to do for a wide variety of prospects. I live nowhere close to Arizona State and Arizona State didn't play any games near me this year.

your right, I'm not trying to say that this is end all be all and I'm certainly not a scout. I can only do the best I can with what I have, if anyone thinks differently than I they are free to post their opinions in a constructive manner

TheSlinger
11-26-2011, 02:40 PM
if anyone thinks differently than I they are free to post their opinions in a constructive manner

What's constructive about this ****? Anybody who posts an opinion different than yours is called an idiot and a troll. Maybe you should take a good hard look at yourself and come back later.

Overall, if you DON'T want Taze on your team, your a fool

WOW AWESOME SCOUTING REPORT BRO!!!!!

I love that you used information to back up your argument... oh wait... nvm



Meanwhile you fail to even have a point, so not quite sure why your here.

I mean unless it's because your just looking to fight or being a troll; what do you think of the actual topic at hand or do you have none?



Do you want to waste any more of my time or do you feel sufficiently foolish?


His nose for the ball is unreal so I won't even bother responding to that nonsense

when he's called upon to blitz he has a great burst into the backfield, I can't believe your going to try and make the argument that an ILB should have better pass rushing skills. His are better than the other two top ILB prospects anyway so your argument is moot

As far as not diagnosing: I laughed real hard here

Your comments about him always being in power forward mode lead me to believe that you are making these comments on reputation alone without having watched him this year.

Or maybe its just not true? Useful and constructive comment though...

Awful

So what are YOUR thoughts on Vontaze Burfict? I would be interested to here your wise and insightful opinion which I value so highly


Translation: "I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just trolling and have no actual input into the conversation at hand."

We were having stimulating conversation, in three posts you have managed to add nothing to it.


Oh yea, I just looked and I was the one who actually responded to your post. Feel free to give you rebuttal. Until then, don't troll


I'm not going to sit here and dissect multiple tapes of a guy for YOUR convenience so that I can prove YOU wrong. I put up a tape of him against one of the best teams he has played this year. If you wan't to try and prove ME wrong, why don't you waste your own time and find your own tape of him and get back to me with it, I'm not going to do your work for you Mr. Awful.

So what you are telling me is that out of 27 plays or so, he makes 2-3 mistakes? BUST!!!!!

you act like the other top ILB prospects are insanely better than him and never make a mistake. Pretty poor argument

I didn't catch the Illinois game but I think he did pretty well against Oregon. However if you would like to pull up the video's and do your own analysis I would be happy to give you my thoughts on them, but I'm not going to do your work for you.




Again, your comments are about as useless as the rest of the people coming in.

What are YOUR thoughts on Taze? Do you have none? Then why are you even bothering to comment

Sloopy
11-26-2011, 03:02 PM
What's constructive about this ****? Anybody who posts an opinion different than yours is called an idiot and a troll. Maybe you should take a good hard look at yourself and come back later.

If your going to quote me, include everything

Alright, since we aren't bumping the other thread I'll give my .02:

If you go by standards of people calling him the next Ray Lewis, then yes, he's overrated. This isn't a knock on him though; it's similar to how people are calling Luck a sure fire HoF. There is just no way to know if Taze will live up to the Ray Lewis billing.

However, Taze is much more than a hard hitting walking 15 yard penalty. He is probably one of the more technically sound ILB in this class, great ability shedding blocks and moving through traffic. Is extremely quick into the backfield when called on to blitz. He does have solid tackling technique despite his hard hitting ways. Amazing side-line to side-line speed. Awesome instincts. Solid enough for an ILB in coverage. EXTREMELY ATHLETIC, absolutely a top physical specimen in this draft.

Yes he has caused penalties but for every dumb penalty he makes he gets one for reputation alone. Overall, if you DON'T want Taze on your team, your a fool

Gave my opinion, yes I said you would be a fool. It's my opinion and not aimed at anyone. Overall I'm annoyed that three threads have been started about this guy being overrated and every time when evidence is brought forth about why he isn't, people just make another thread and call him overrated.

I had perfectly legitimate arguments with people and made my point. Guys like BigBanger came in and made the claim that I wasn't backing up my argument so I posted the clip

I responded to your original post, you never commented back until:

"You disagree with me so you've never seen him play!"

Awful.

Truly lacking a point so I called you out, same with Chris.

If you don't like someone being hostile towards you, don't come in with hostile comments.

while you can quote times where I've been hostile, I've backed up my opinion and made my points.

For the record it's trolling when you come into a thread and make a hostile comment towards someone without making any comment on the OP itself.

Now this thread has gone way off the rails so: If you have an opinion on Burfict or anything Burfict related that has been said, post it. If not, don't post anything.

TheSlinger
11-26-2011, 03:07 PM
I've made many comments. You've dismissed them. If you don't respect anybody else's opinion nobody will respect yours.

Sloopy
11-26-2011, 03:21 PM
I don't respect anyones opinions that post things and aren't willing to back them up, sorry.

You aren't necessarily in this group but I did respond to your "plays I don't agree with you on" post and you never responded, then despite my initially not wanting to break down his Oregon game after your comments about him having a bad game, I did anyway and you didn't rebuttal.

You can complain that I'm not being constructive but I seem to be the only one responding to comments with my own opinions and backing them up.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

onejayhawk
11-26-2011, 03:57 PM
I don't respect anyones opinions

I could not have said it better.

J

Raiderz4Life
11-26-2011, 04:01 PM
I could not have said it better.

J

Could not be more wrong either.

BaLLiN
11-26-2011, 04:06 PM
I haven't been impressed with JPP despite his sack numbers this year. Overrated as a pass rusher and a liability in the run game.

I focused on him in the Seattle, Buffalo, New England, and latest Philly game, and not once did I see him "flash" on the screen. He occasionally falls into clean-up sacks or comes unblocked, or makes a routine tackle, but other than that, I don't see anything special. Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.

Overrated as a pass rusher? yeah ok. He doesn't even start (did start for Osi and Tuck when they got injured) yet he puts up a sack every game. He gets doubled just as often as Tuck, and when he is in you can tell the offense makes him a priority in protection. Osi shoots downfield, and extends the pocket on EVERY PLAY, it hurts everyone else trying to get to the qb if anything. He's easily our best defensive lineman this year.

He got 1 clean up sack vs. philly, nice generalization there. I also don't think we were rushing our ends for most of that game, but trying to keep Young in the pocket. Most of his sacks have come from defenses not putting two people on him. How many 2nd year players do you know that broke double teams in the NFL on a consistent basis?

Sloopy
11-26-2011, 04:09 PM
I could not have said it better.

J

I'm not attacking anyone that hasn't come in with hostility towards me (other than JBCX but well I'm sorry I just can't)

If you want respect, show some first.

BigBanger
11-29-2011, 12:24 PM
Here you go Big Banger

LwKrdgwL7g0

Snap #1 Burfict gets in position to make the tackle and then pushes the pile when other tacklers latch on to the runner. Exactly what you want your 3-4 ILB to do.

Snap #2 gets in the lane and hits the runner low, runner gets away but is off balance and goes down shortly after

Snap #3 Gets of the blocker with ease and attempts to go low, misses a tackle here.

Snap # 4 gets by blocker and positions himself for tackle, doesn't over pursue makes gang tackle.

Through all of these he has gone low and attempted to make the tackle instead of going for the big hit, he squares up and makes the tackle.

Snap #5 get blocked low and goes down

Snap #6 doesn't bite on pump fake sees the screen play, gets off the blocker and would have blown up the screen play had the player actually caught the ball.

Snap #7 shows patients and squares up the runner to make the form tackle

Fg attempt, goes offsides.

Snap #8 Team gets a sack

Snap #9 gets off blocker and moves through traffic to tackle the runner

Snap #10 does not bight on pass action and maintains his zone

Snap #11 gets off the block but the runner is by him to the other side

Snap #12 shows patience and seals the cut back, squaring up and making the tackle

Snap #13 gets off his blocker, credited with tackle as the runner trips up (Still would have been in position)

Snap #14 makes the pre snap read, gets off the chip to his underneath zone and makes the athletic play to get the interception returns ball for about 35 yards

Then that maniac helps Barkley to his feet, omg so crazy

Snap #15 maintains a zone reads QB's eyes and moves into position to make the tackle on the receiver

Snap #16 comes through unblocked with a burst into the backfield and makes the gang tackle, pushes the pile.

Snap #17 does not bit on play action and makes the tackle on the receiver

Snap #18 after the catch takes appropriate angle on receiver to make the tackle

Snap #19 gets off blocker but fails to get there in time to make the tackle

Snap #20 gets blocked while trying to make the tackle

Snap #21 stuffs the gap and the run play ends.

Snap #22 gets off the blocker and stone walls the runner at the goal line

Snap #23 gets off the block a little late but still makes the tackle, could have made it earlier if he had been able to disengage sooner

Snap #24 fills the gap but runner cuts back to the outside

Snap #25 plays his zone makes tackle on the receiver after the catch.

Snap # 26 gets held could have made the play on the ball

Snap #27 reads the gets a little hindered by the low block but gets off it, incomplete pass

Do you want to waste any more of my time or do you feel sufficiently foolish?
Oh, did I ask you to look up a highlight video of Burfict on YouTube and tell me his involvement in the 27 plays of said highlight video? But if you feel you wasted your time, which you did, then I'd say that you are one pathetic loser.

Feeling foolish? I don't know how you can honestly believe you have proved anything. I stopped reading when you said, "does not bight". I assume you meant "bite." But anyway, awful post. I award you no points.

soybean
11-29-2011, 12:35 PM
For what it's worth, he was benched their last game.

DraftSavant
11-29-2011, 01:04 PM
Also...those are not highlight videos.

Sloopy
11-29-2011, 01:18 PM
Oh, did I ask you to look up a highlight video of Burfict on YouTube and tell me his involvement in the 27 plays of said highlight video? But if you feel you wasted your time, which you did, then I'd say that you are one pathetic loser.

Feeling foolish? I don't know how you can honestly believe you have proved anything. I stopped reading when you said, "does not bight". I assume you meant "bite." But anyway, awful post. I award you no points.

It's not a highlight video, it's every snap that he played in the game against USC.

I was using it to respond to this ignorant post:

You gave your two cents earlier and provided nothing to support your claims that he's good at anything you mentioned. Those were blanket statements that appear to be false. Yet you pass them off as fact. Take a bit of your own advice and try to be a little less biased.

You said they appear to be false and that I wasn't providing any support for them so I pulled up two different games with which to prove my point.

The fact of the matter is that you have yet to give any opinion on the matter while I gave my opinion. You claimed that I didn't support it well enough so I brought in video to prove my point.

Meanwhile, what have you done in this forum? Have you brought evidence to prove your point or prove me wrong? have you even brought your thoughts forward?

So far I've done more to prove my point than those of you that have come in without even having a point.

you may award me no points, but I award you this

http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Internet-Troll-atsof-573286_304_244.jpg

My official troll stamp of approval, congratulations sir... wear it well

BaLLiN
11-29-2011, 01:24 PM
His stock has to be falling, he might even be available in the late second imo.

Sloopy
11-29-2011, 01:34 PM
His stock has to be falling, he might even be available in the late second imo.

Yes, as of late I would agree that his stock is falling. I think that he still has the potential to be a game changer at the next level and to be quite honest I'm hoping that he will fall to the Ravens come draft day.

I also wouldn't be surprised if he righted the ship and drove his stock back up in workouts and at the combine. His athleticism should charm a lot of people

SolidGold
11-29-2011, 04:06 PM
Tony Pauline had a write up about the fallers this year:


Here is what he said about Burfict:
Vontaze Burfict, LB, Arizona State*: Possibly no player has dropped down draft boards faster this season than Burfict. He entered the campaign ranked as a potential top five pick, but his immaturity has cost him at least half a round, if not more. He's been consistently flagged for unsportsmanlike penalties, and it has cost his team dearly. Scouts say Burfict shows little in the way of controlling his temper, which has NFL decision-makers concerned.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tony_pauline/11/28/fallers/index.html#ixzz1f98ulgAK

Sloopy
11-29-2011, 07:51 PM
Tony Pauline had a write up about the fallers this year:


Here is what he said about Burfict:
Vontaze Burfict, LB, Arizona State*: Possibly no player has dropped down draft boards faster this season than Burfict. He entered the campaign ranked as a potential top five pick, but his immaturity has cost him at least half a round, if not more. He's been consistently flagged for unsportsmanlike penalties, and it has cost his team dearly. Scouts say Burfict shows little in the way of controlling his temper, which has NFL decision-makers concerned.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/tony_pauline/11/28/fallers/index.html#ixzz1f98ulgAK

I actually really hope this to be true... I can't imagine Ozzie passing on him should he fall. I'm salivating as I think about the possibility.

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 08:54 PM
Taze in Balti would be awesome. Would buy me a Taze jersey for sure. Would like him on the Raiders but we're pretty set I think and we don't have a shot at him anyways.

JHL6719
11-29-2011, 09:09 PM
He became overrated the instant I heard him being tabbed as the next Patrick Willis. He's not and never was.

Good player? Possibly, if he learns how to wrap up and secure a ball carrier in order to bring him to the ground instead of whiffing trying to make a sportscenter highlight.

Maybe learn how to play without drawing 2 or 3 personal fouls a game that are a detriment to the team.... along with figuring out how to avoid being out of position so much.

Other than all that and probably a few other minor things, yeah he's Dick Butkus.

Sloopy
11-29-2011, 09:34 PM
He became overrated the instant I heard him being tabbed as the next Patrick Willis. He's not and never was.

Good player? Possibly, if he learns how to wrap up and secure a ball carrier in order to bring him to the ground instead of whiffing trying to make a sportscenter highlight.

Maybe learn how to play without drawing 2 or 3 personal fouls a game that are a detriment to the team.... along with figuring out how to avoid being out of position so much.

Other than all that and probably a few other minor things, yeah he's Dick Butkus.

I really hate this stigma related to him.

Please watch one of the two videos of his entire game against two different teams (You don't even have to read a lick o my analysis of the games) and you still tell me you think he needs to learn to wrap up tackles or that he goes for the big hit rather than the smart play.

The personal fouls are a definite negative, I happen to believe that a # of them are based on reputation alone. i.e. the second one against Oregon; the whistle hadn't even blown before the hit, nor was the player out of bounds. The first one was definitely a bone headed move.

I also really don't see how you can say he's out of position a lot. He almost always is in the right place at the right time, either making the tackle or aiding in the gang tackle.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would really like one of the naysayers to explain this to me having watched the game. The only one to even try was Slinger and no offense Slinger but I just cannot see how 2-3 plays over the entirety of a game of messing up his gap control makes the guy a bust. There are professionals in the NFL who make these mistakes currently... some of the greatest players of all time in the NFL have made mistakes in college.

I just don't see how you can give this guy a bad grade outside of the penalties. I don't disagree that this will push him down boards (in fact I'm really hoping on it) but he isn't the first player to ever come out of college with this problem and he won't be the last.

Saints-Tigers
11-29-2011, 09:42 PM
Burfict is way underrated at this point.

BaLLiN
11-29-2011, 10:51 PM
Burfict is way underrated at this point.

where would you rate him (round-wise)? Because right now i think his stock went from a top 15 pick to a late 2nd

TACKLE
11-29-2011, 11:08 PM
where would you rate him (round-wise)? Because right now i think his stock went from a top 15 pick to a late 2nd

I think he ends up going anywhere from 20-40. He's just far too talented to fall much further.

BaLLiN
11-29-2011, 11:10 PM
I think he ends up going anywhere from 20-40. He's just far too talented to fall much further.

that's what I was thinking, but we've seen players fall multiple rounds for reasons we ourselves (draftniks) thought were minor.

TACKLE
11-29-2011, 11:28 PM
that's what I was thinking, but we've seen players fall multiple rounds for reasons we ourselves (draftniks) thought were minor.

Though I look at a guy like Rey Maualuga. Everyone was surprised when he got out of the 1st round. He was also had guy with maturity issues, got in some fights off the field, etc and in hindsight, was not on the same level talent wise as Taze and Rey went 38th overall. Taze will struggle in his interviews and might turn some teams off, but above all else, teams want talented football players and Taze is exactly that.

Sloopy
11-29-2011, 11:42 PM
Though I look at a guy like Rey Maualuga. Everyone was surprised when he got out of the 1st round. He was also had guy with maturity issues, got in some fights off the field, etc and in hindsight, was not on the same level talent wise as Taze and Rey went 38th overall. Taze will struggle in his interviews and might turn some teams off, but above all else, teams want talented football players and Taze is exactly that.

Yea I mean I could see him being the last of the big 3 ILB prospects taken, and in fact I have mocked it this way in my last two dating back a month now, but I don't see guys like Hightower going before a team would take Taze.

The guy has some flaws but you know he is going to put up nice triangle #'s at the combine and is still a top talent in this draft.

I'd say he might fall out of the first, other than the fact that I really don't see him making it past Baltimore :P

BigBanger
11-30-2011, 01:14 AM
It's not a highlight video, it's every snap that he played in the game against USC.
Wouldn't know. Didn't watch the game and didn't watch the highlight video. To do a video in about 5 minutes, he must be on the bench for quite some time in that game. I know he's less than mediocre against the pass, and a liability for the next level, but if he's seeing less than 30 snaps a game (according to you) ... then does that give you pause for concern?

I watched the 4th QT of the Arizona St game last week and the only LB I saw that looked any good was #6. Burfict wasn't even in the game. Someone said he was benched in this thread (conveniently overlooked by you), but I don't know if they sat him the whole game, halfway through or what the circumstances were. I know I didn't see him at all in the 4th QT. I was drinking at a sports bar and could not even tell you who they played.

I've already discussed Burfict in other Burfict related threads. My opinion on him has not really changed.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2594938#post2594938

We all get that he's your favorite player, we get it, but don't expect that your are going to impose your will upon anyway by saying he's all world at everything he does. He has flaws. Accept them and move on. You're not going to convince anyone of anything, and when you don't back it up with anything (no, posting a highlight video does not count), then there's no point in looking stupid by bitching at other posters. Just let it go.

Sloopy
11-30-2011, 10:09 AM
Wouldn't know. Didn't watch the game and didn't watch the highlight video. To do a video in about 5 minutes, he must be on the bench for quite some time in that game. I know he's less than mediocre against the pass, and a liability for the next level, but if he's seeing less than 30 snaps a game (according to you) ... then does that give you pause for concern?

He is no more of a liability against the pass than most ILB in this game. Kuechly might have an edge on him against the pass in this class but he's not terrible against it by any stretch. His snaps per game is because I'm pretty sure that like most ILB, he does not see snaps in obvious passing situations or while the team is in certain packages.

I watched the 4th QT of the Arizona St game last week and the only LB I saw that looked any good was #6. Burfict wasn't even in the game. Someone said he was benched in this thread (conveniently overlooked by you), but I don't know if they sat him the whole game, halfway through or what the circumstances were. I know I didn't see him at all in the 4th QT. I was drinking at a sports bar and could not even tell you who they played.

Yes someone did mention his benching, I am not going to claim to be knowledgeable of it though as I am not. I can assume that it has something to do with the penalties, but that would just be me assuming.

I've already discussed Burfict in other Burfict related threads. My opinion on him has not really changed.

I was in this same boat, I am really tired of guys like JBCX claiming things in threads then not backing them up when people appose them, just to post it in another thread.

We all get that he's your favorite player, we get it, but don't expect that your are going to impose your will upon anyway by saying he's all world at everything he does. He has flaws. Accept them and move on. You're not going to convince anyone of anything, and when you don't back it up with anything (no, posting a highlight video does not count), then there's no point in looking stupid by bitching at other posters. Just let it go.

My favorite player in this draft actually happens to be Mike Adams... I never said he was all world he has flaws like the boneheaded penalties which I acknowledged as well as the fact that he isn't a beast in coverage (just that he isn't that much worse than anyone else in this draft and probably better than some)

You don't have to accept my beliefs on the subject, there are plenty on this board that do, but to say I didn't back it up is asinine. You claimed that I was making blanket statements about the guy so I pulled out video's of some of his games (no they are not highlight videos as much as you would like them to be, they aren't a series of singular plays from different games with cool music to make him look badass).

Actually, if anyone hasn't backed up what they are saying, it's you...

You say he is less than mediocre against the pass: Where is your proof? Your just making blanket statements and not backing them up.

Burfict wont be a first round pick, and if he is, it'll be based all on potential. I have no idea what is going on in this thread. The kid from BC is far superior. #40, someone mentioned him but I'm too lazy to look it up and it's hard to pronounce, but he has much better instincts, a much better motor and plays sideline-to-sideline. Also much smarter with better instincts and technique. Lacks the size, strength and physicality of Burfict though and struggles at times disengaging from blockers. Not as much upside or potential

Okay... where is your proof?

I can make the same asinine comments you can. Go ahead say I didn't back it up, but I have done more to do so than you have.

Sorry if you think I'm bitching, I was accused of not backing up my argument and went to great lengths to do so, now I'm gunna call you out when you don't back yours up.

Now this is the last time I'm gunna feed you

brat316
11-30-2011, 10:13 AM
lNbMnThnfIA


LwKrdgwL7g0


ea9YmLSMGeQ

brat316
11-30-2011, 10:17 AM
He does wrap up. And does take his shots like most guys do as well. Good at attacking the line as well.

Decent in coverage, and sometimes over runs the play.

I don't see how he doesn't go in round 1.

onejayhawk
11-30-2011, 01:08 PM
I think he ends up going anywhere from 20-40. He's just far too talented to fall much further.

I would go a bit lower, maybe 25-50. he has a lot to learn about proper technique, but technique is coachable. I dont see the second coming of Jack Lambert, but a few Prop Bowls are possible.

He does wrap up. And does take his shots like most guys do as well. Good at attacking the line as well.

Decent in coverage, and sometimes over runs the play.

I don't see how he doesn't go in round 1.

Sometimes? Does he ever stay home?

J

Complex
11-30-2011, 01:14 PM
Future Titan in the 2nd round. I like it, Decastro and Vontaze two first rounders in one draft.

Sloopy
11-30-2011, 01:47 PM
Sometimes? Does he ever stay home?

Yea... and I'm tired of arguing it. I've put up multiple video's and spent a great deal of time explaining it. Please show me a game were more often than not the guy doesn't make solid tackles and mind his gaps. 1 or 2 plays here or there doesn't mean he never stays home. In his case, over pursuit is the exception, not the rule.


End of the day, you can dislike him all you want. Dude doesn't make it out of the first round. Even if he falls a bit, some team is going to be giddy as **** to land him late in the round.

BigBanger
11-30-2011, 01:49 PM
He is no more of a liability against the pass than most ILB in this game. Kuechly might have an edge on him against the pass in this class
Kuechly might have an edge? Pass coverage is one of Kuechly's greatest strengths as a LB. If you think there is even a debate as far as their athletic ability in space, dropping into zones (especially deep into zones) and their awareness in pass coverage, then I would say you are not looking at either prospect from a neutral perspective. I have come down quite a bit on Kuechly. I think he's an early second round, late first type prospect because he plays the opposite of Burfict (a little too finesse and struggles to disengage from blockers, gets engulfed). And that's pretty much exactly what I see with Burfict. Burfict has more potential and upside because he has natural strength (he doesn't have an overly impressive physique), size and can really take on blockers (he's just inconsistent with it). Burfict is really raw and plays stupid. Thats my chief complaint with him. He gets too caught up with the game within the game and takes knockout shots on offensive linemen while completely disregarding the ball carrier. Instead of disengaging, he constantly getting involved in shoving matches with linemen.

but he's not terrible against it by any stretch. His snaps per game is because I'm pretty sure that like most ILB, he does not see snaps in obvious passing situations or while the team is in certain packages.
To the point where you are missing half the snaps for each game? Thats not normal. Is Patrick Willis on the bench for half the 49ers plays? Was he on the bench when he was at Ole Miss? How about Jerod Mayo? James Laurinaitis? Or maybe I should mention Ray Lewis since he isn't compared to guys like Mayo and Laurinaitis? You are making excuses.

Actually, if anyone hasn't backed up what they are saying, it's you...

You say he is less than mediocre against the pass: Where is your proof? Your just making blanket statements and not backing them up.
Part of my proof is from watching him. Part of my proof is from you as well where you concede the fact that he isn't a "beast" in pass coverage. Part of my proof is that he's never made a play against the pass that was more than 10 yards down field. Part of my proof is that he doesn't have very good change of direction, he's ain't any good in space. Part of my proof is from the simple fact that they take him out of the game on obvious passing downs.


Okay... where is your proof?

I can make the same asinine comments you can. Go ahead say I didn't back it up, but I have done more to do so than you have.
I guess my proof is everything else in the post that you failed to quote.

Punisher
11-30-2011, 01:57 PM
Found it interesting Vontaze wasn't listed on either the first or second team in the new 2011 Pac 12 all conference team.

Sloopy
11-30-2011, 05:12 PM
I guess my proof is everything else in the post that you failed to quote.

I'm tired of arguing with you... if you don't believe me why don't you listen to the guy who's draft board you are using... listen to the first 10 minutes or so

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/draftcountdown/2011/11/30/draft-countdown

from 11/29

Vontaze Burfict, on talent alone, is a legitimate top 10-15 overall pick in the NFL draft

Scott and Shane both have different views on where he should go but both seemingly agree that he is a top NFL talent.

Buc Baller12
11-30-2011, 07:56 PM
i have visions of this guy in a buc uniform. don't know if its good or bad

Roddoliver
11-30-2011, 11:07 PM
Extremely overrated. Maybe the most overrated player. I don't think he should be drafted in the 1st round or even early in the 2nd round. Dumb, constantly out of position, out of control, bad technique. He will probably punch my face and break my neck, but I just gave an honest opinion. Luke Kuechly could teach him how to play LB.

Sloopy
11-30-2011, 11:20 PM
Extremely overrated. Maybe the most overrated player. I don't think he should be drafted in the 1st round or even early in the 2nd round. Dumb, constantly out of position, out of control, bad technique. He will probably punch my face and break my neck, but I just gave an honest opinion. Luke Kuechly could teach him how to play LB.

http://www.ultimavida.com/fotos/orig_pokemon18_img04.jpg

Don Vito
11-30-2011, 11:31 PM
He will be a Raven

Sloopy
11-30-2011, 11:39 PM
after watching the oregon video, i wouldn't want him. i like his violence, but he made like, 2 tackles all game that were within 5 yards of the LOS? made the completely wrong read on two (iirc) huge runs? meh. i'd take him in the 2nd on potential, but i wouldn't want anything to do with him in the first.

Oregon game he definitely wasn't his greatest game, I do like some of the effort plays he makes in the game though. The guy always seems to be around the ball.

He won't be the first ILB to be abused by Oregon's run game and he won't be the last. Still he does fairly well against one of the best rushing attacks in the country.

He will be a Raven

Don't get my hopes up

Sloopy
11-30-2011, 11:44 PM
i'll be fair and note that i'm still going through the other videos. but that was... lackluster.

I don't know how you feel about the other top two ILB prospects but I would venture to say that they would probably have struggled equally against the Oregon running attack. IIRC Kuechly is the closest to facing such an attack (VT 26th overall in rushing vs Oregon at 5)

brat316
12-01-2011, 10:08 AM
Yeah after watching that Illy game I noticed that to. Good at making the open field 1 on 1 tackles. But if a linemen get his hands on him or in his zone he has problems. I saw him shed 1 or 2 blocks, and got taken out a few times.

Sloopy
12-01-2011, 10:10 AM
i don't know that that's a good thing though. a guy i'm going to take in the top 20 shouldn't "struggle" against anyone. i can understand a linebacker is at the mercy of a few other factors in the game, but he just looked bad most of the time.

I mean I definitely think he falls a bit, it's apparent that many have concerns about him. I just tend to agree with Scott that based on talent and with his amazing upside he is a top talent in this draft.

I would be ecstatic to have him on my team. I get that Kuechly might be considered the safer pick, but safe doesn't necessarily turn into the best player. Not that I would mind Kuechly either I would just prefer Burfict.

brat316
12-01-2011, 10:15 AM
See now in the USC game played damn near perfect. Only 2 plays i counted where he shed the block but didn't make the tackle. 1 wrong read, and 2 was taken out by a block.

Sloopy
12-01-2011, 10:22 AM
I'm wondering how much of the inconsistencies might be related to coaching. Like my Buckeyes... Normally a very good tackling team and a team with overall good talent level, this year goes 6-6 and can't make a damn tackle. Not trying to rip Fick but yea...

JBCX
12-01-2011, 12:46 PM
This guy is going to be one of the biggest busts of the past 10 years if someone picks him in the top 20.

I can't wait to bump this thread 2-3 years from now after this guy is being cut from the team that drafted him.

Sloopy
12-01-2011, 01:38 PM
This guy is going to be one of the biggest busts of the past 10 years if someone picks him in the top 20.

I can't wait to bump this thread 2-3 years from now after this guy is being cut from the team that drafted him.

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http://assets.pokemon.com/assets/cms/img/common/pokemon/040_Wigglytuff.png

onejayhawk
12-01-2011, 01:56 PM
I doubt that he will be that big of a bust, largely because he has regressed so much this year. He might sneak into the 2nd round, but his reputation as a discipline problem is really going to kill him.

J

Sloopy
12-01-2011, 02:20 PM
I doubt that he will be that big of a bust, largely because he has regressed so much this year. He might sneak into the 2nd round, but his reputation as a discipline problem is really going to kill him.

J

We can finally agree on something, I believe that he will slip. I still think that a team (please god please) like the Ravens won't let him fall out of the first round, I just think that he is that talented and he certainly has a great deal of upside.

thegreatone
12-01-2011, 04:39 PM
We can finally agree on something, I believe that he will slip. I still think that a team (please god please) like the Ravens won't let him fall out of the first round, I just think that he is that talented and he certainly has a great deal of upside.
I'm a Burfict fan, but I'm not sure I'd spend a 1st on him.

Right now hes a 2nd rounder. I'd trade down and get some extra picks.

Miaoww
12-01-2011, 05:04 PM
He does wrap up. And does take his shots like most guys do as well. Good at attacking the line as well.

Decent in coverage, and sometimes over runs the play.

I don't see how he doesn't go in round 1.

From what I've seen I'd be happy with the Panthers taking him at the top of round 2.

onejayhawk
12-02-2011, 01:46 PM
We can finally agree on something, I believe that he will slip. I still think that a team (please god please) like the Ravens won't let him fall out of the first round, I just think that he is that talented and he certainly has a great deal of upside.

When a player refuses to go into a game, that is a BIG red flag. I do not think anyone sees him as 1st day anymore. He is going to have to kill his interviews, and that is not something I expect will come easily. Add that to his position shortcomings, and the Ravens might get him in round 2.

J

Flaming Mo
12-02-2011, 01:51 PM
The thing with Burfict is that some of the things that will downgrade him in certain teams' eyes will make him look even better for others.

Think about it, how would Rex Ryan like to have a guy like him taking over for Bart Scott in a year?! He embodies the statement "play like your hair is on fire" or "playing like a Jet" - constants in Ryan's idea of his players. He was never shy about taking on guys with questionable attitudes and he loves violent players with a certain attitude about them. Burfict with his temper would be a great complement to the more quiet, workman like David Harris.

I could see the same with Ravens where they got extremely strong leadership on the defense which will keep Burfict in check and they got a position opening up in the near future. They value violence and attitude on their team and they will overlook the red flags and believe that they can turn out the positive, the great in a talent like Burfict.

Sloopy
12-02-2011, 02:44 PM
When a player refuses to go into a game, that is a BIG red flag. I do not think anyone sees him as 1st day anymore. He is going to have to kill his interviews, and that is not something I expect will come easily. Add that to his position shortcomings, and the Ravens might get him in round 2.

J

I am not aware of him refusing to go in the game so I can't comment on it. I agree that it is a red flag. I just wonder how much of this year has been a result of coaching, I don't know why he refused to go into a game but I might assume it had to do with the coach, who is now fired despite having a fairly talented team.

Again, I think that he slips, I don't know if its out of the first round, again, because of his talent level and upside. We can agree to the fact that concerns about character will cause him to slip a bit. However at some point, a team will pull the trigger based on talent. There is a point where value outweighs risk.

For example, a team at the bottom of round one looking for an ILB, do you take Hightower? or Burfict? Hightower is an early-mid 2nd rounder on talent, Burfict is a top 15. Do you reach for a guy to address a position or do you take the risk that a very talented player can be reigned in a bit?

It's not unheard of for guys to turn around when drafted to the right team. Meanwhile, how many guys that get drafted as reaches at the bottom of the first just don't turn out? I believe there is a thread on it right now.