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BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 11:01 AM
Since tonight's game may actually be a good one seeing as how the Giants play up/down to their competition, I considered saving this until tomorrow.

But I had enough things I wanted to talk about even without it, so here we are again this week.

1.) Backup QBs are Important
I can't stress this one enough. For starters, I'll direct your attention back to something I wrote prior to the season here: http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48309

(Certain sections highlighted for emphasis)



The topics of ranking starting QBs and looking at QB competitions get beat to death around this time every year, but if you think about it, only a select few teams each season seem to get a full 16 starts out of their QB. And just those one or two starts missed here or there can make the difference between, say, earning a bye week or being a wild card team...or making the playoffs vs. not making them at all...

Criteria #1: If the team has an established starter, and that starter misses 1-4 games, could the backup go about .500 in those games?

Now, I think it's unrealistic to expect your backup to come in and win every game. It almost never happens and in most cases, your lucky if he does anything positive at all. I also picked a span of 1-4 games because for most teams, if their starter misses any more than that, their season is likely going to be lost. If the Packers were to lose Aaron Rodgers for longer than that, or the Saints were to lose Drew Brees, both of those teams would likely struggle for the rest of the season no matter how good their backups are. Also, I defined "established starter" as a QB who, barring injury or sudden extreme poor performance, would be his team's starter for all 16 games.



The league currently features two situations in which likely playoff teams are currently sporting their backup and even their 3rd string QB. Both the Bears and the Texans, owing mostly to easy schedules the rest of the way and solid-to-great supporting casts can still make the playoffs with backups at QB.

Like I said before the season, I think teams need to have a backup that they feel can go at least .500 in any starts he may have to make. One or two losses can completely change the season. For instance, last year, the Bears went 11-5 and were the #2 seed in the NFC earning a bye week. The Giants and Bucs were left out of the playoffs completely at 10-6...just a ONE GAME DIFFERENCE between the #2 seed and sitting at home in January.

So, with that all said, why don't teams have more respect for the backup QB position?

Ideally, this is a guy who will never see the field. But rarely is that the case unless you've got a guy named Favre or Manning. As I've pointed out several times, it's unrealistic to expect every backup QB to be the next Kurt Warner, or even Matt Cassel, but I don't think it's unrealistic to have a guy who can keep your team afloat.

So why do teams seem to constantly ignore the position before the season? In some cases, I understand why team went out to find a veteran backup, such as the Bears and Texans. Both had rookie 3rd stringers who likely weren't up to the task of becoming the new backup.

But for the Raiders, what is the excuse? They had all preseason to see Kyle Boller play and decided that he must have been good enough to be the backup QB then. Jason Campbell gets hurt, and then the team panics throwing quality draft picks out for a veteran. Yes, Kyle Boller sucks, but why didn't the team have a better backup plan before the season even started?

Similar arguments could be made for the Colts and Chiefs. Even someone as durable as Peyton Manning was bound to miss time eventually. But the team stuck with the completely unproven Curtis Painter as the backup...up until Peyton actually began to miss time. Then they suddenly panicked and overpaid Kerry Collins to bring him out of retirement for a game. Similarly, the Chiefs, with playoff aspirations, had no quarrel going with Tyler Palko as Matt Cassel's backup, but as soon as he struggled in his first start, they panicked and brought in Kyle Orton who will likely be starting sooner rather than later with no experience in the system. ("Knows the system" is typically overrated in my opinion and Todd Collins is a great example of that, but signing a guy to start for your team in the middle of season is one case where that guy better be familiar with the system.)

In all of these cases, I feel that the team could have done a better job filling the backup QB position. In my opinion, teams should look at the backup QB as a guy who is likely to see action. If they don't feel he can keep them afloat if the starter goes down, they should find someone else who they think can.

Now, you could very well be sitting there saying "BeerBaron, there aren't even enough quality QBs to fill 32 starter slots, much less backups!" And you may be correct. But here is a list of current backup QBs I like and who I would have offered mid-round picks to acquire if necessary:

- Billy Volek (was a free agent prior to this season)
- Seneca Wallace (would have offered a 5th, up to a 3rd if really desperate)
- Vince Young (was a free agent prior to this season)
- Matt Moore (was a free agent prior to this season)
- Bruce Gradkowski (was a free agent prior to this season)

And that's just ones I can think of offhand. And most, I could have signed as free agents. I'd trust any one of those guys to keep a team afloat in 1-4 starts if pressed into duty. Or at least I'd trust them more than Curtis Painter, Kyle Boller, Tyler Palko......

Finally, you may argue expense. None of those guys are on particularly large salaries. I'd gladly pay an extra million if it meant staying alive while your starting QB is out.

2.) What to make of the Texans
It just keeps getting worse while the team manages to keep on winning. Given the supporting cast, it's likely that any available QB could probably pilot the Texans to the playoffs still. The defense is smothering, Foster and the o-line are humming, and all you need to do is hock up a pass towards Andre every once in a while to keep the defense honest.

But any team who could draw the Texans in the first round of the playoffs would have to be salivating. Kellen Clemons or TJ Yates? In the playoffs? The Texans are doomed.

Looking at the veteran ranks doesn't turn up much. A case could be made for the Texans to try picking at the carcasses of Daunte Culpepper or Jeff Garcia. Hell, Jake Plummer isn't doing anything nowadays. Give him a call. I think he played in Kubiak's offense. There's also Favre which....well, suffice it to say we should all pray that doesn't happen.

PFT suggested something today which could be up the Texans' alley. If Kyle Orton could get his release in Denver by simply asking, Donovan McNabb should try the same thing. As bad as he's been these last two years, he's still probably a better option than rookie Yates or street FA Clemons.

This team should still make the playoffs, but anything beyond a one-and-done would come as an absolute shock to me.

3.) QBs I don't like update 3.0
-Tebow - Well, this is just getting sad. Granted, I had no real faith in the Chargers but that's a whole 'nother story. Playing games this close is akin to playing with fire and eventually, they're going to get burned.

I also like how the Tebow story has completely overshadowed Von Miller's impact on the team. He's playing out of his mind right now and, like I said last week, is a bigger reason for the team's success than Tebow. I didn't see Tebow making the tackle for a loss to knock the Chargers into worse FG range for their OT miss. I haven't seen Tebow rack up 4 sacks in their last 3 games, all wins.

But, no one cares about that. Even Football Night in America, when talking about the highlights of the game, started off saying "Tim Tebow beats the Chargers." Not the Broncos. Tim Tebow, alone and by himself, beat the San Diego Chargers. Apparently.

-Carson Palmer - I've gotten first hand looks at Palmer for the past several weeks now, and my opinion stays the same. He's making a few plays, but he was so close to pissing that Bears game away on several occasions. The Bears dropped several would-be interceptions and if not for throwing to the FB, who the Bears apparently could not or would not cover, Palmer's stay line would be even more mediocre. The Raiders got away with this one, but I can't see Palmer taking this team anywhere beyond a one-and-done int he playoffs.

-Blaine Gabbert - He's ******* terrible. Absolutely terrible. I'll admit to being a QB prospect elitist, but my dislike of Gabbert last year was shared by surprisingly many and for good reason. We're being proven right in this one. The guy has just awful accuracy and his pocket presence is one of the worst I've ever, ever seen. As soon as an 11th defender sets foot on the field, he panics. Bust bust bust. What's that you say, give him more time? He's just a rookie? No. Bust. The team may be required by draft law to give him more than one year, but I'm not. Bust.

4.) Bears Corner
It would have been nice to come away with that ugly win yesterday, but it's not the end of the world.

Caleb Hanie struggled badly early on, but by the 2nd half, played better than the stats would otherwise indicate. Mike Martz's playcalling in the first half didn't help matters. He got away from the rollouts and quicker passes that were working with Cutler, but got back to using them in the 2nd half where Hanie improved. Particularly egregious playcalling was evident on that late first half interception that was nearly returned for a TD. While Hanie should have known better than to throw it and deserves some blame, there was no reason to do anything but be conservative there. That play was basically a 6 point swing...it took a likely FG off the board for the Bears while handing a FG (and nearly a TD) to the Raiders.

The defense played lights out other than a couple of big plays by Marcel Reece of all people. They clamped down in the redzone despite being dealt a bad hand repeatedly by the offense struggling and turning the ball over.

This game could have been a lot worse than the final score turned out to be, and scarily, the Bears were in it right to the end.

Not a pretty game at all, and there is no such thing as a good loss, but hopefully we learned from it and can improve with a weak schedule coming up.

5.) Hot Seat Watch
- Norv Turner - He's done. I don't even know if he lasts the year at this point. He should make for a hell of an offensive coordinator free agent though.

- Andy Reid - I still maintain that he'll resign. If he doesn't, the Eagles should fire him. He's had a good run, but sometimes you have to take a step back before you can take two forward. The team may need to be blown up as well. It's sad because talent is there, but it's a dysfunctional mess.Take your chances with someone else, because Andy Reid with this group isn't going to win you a Superbowl.

- Bill Polian - I keep pleading with Indy to get rid of this clown. Rebuild with Luck! No one, not one GM or head coach in this league should ever be allowed to keep his job after a potentially winless season. This goes beyond Peyton's injury to a poorly built team. His system is flawed and does not build anything but regular season champions at best.

6.) End Suh's Season
I think it's the only message the league can send that he may actually receive. The fines he's been getting are nothing more than pocket change to the former #2 overall pick pre-rookie cap.

A game or two suspension might wake him up a little, but send the absolute strongest message possible and end his season. I guarantee he changes starting next year after that.

Additionally, no matter how long he's suspended, the Lions should still sit him during any appeal. If he appeals and is allowed to play this week, it's a travesty. To quote Mike Periera, "he's not dirty, he's filthy."

If the league wants it's efforts to protect the players to be taken seriously, they need to be protected from themselves. Suspending Suh for the year would send a message to absolutely everyone that this behavior will not be tolerated.

The league won't. But they should. If I were the commish (and everyone should be thankful that I am not,) the banhammer would be out in full force on this one.

That's all I've got for this week. There may be some other stuff but this is what I came up with offhand. If you want to ask me something else, feel free to do so in the thread. If I think of anything or something crazy happens in tonight's game, I'll update this later.

Bulldogs
11-28-2011, 11:02 AM
I do think they should suspend Suh, but the whole season might be a little harsh. Sure it would send a message, but it would pretty much destroy that team's playoff hopes.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 11:06 AM
I do think they should suspend Suh, but the whole season might be a little harsh. Sure it would send a message, but it would pretty much destroy that team's playoff hopes.

I was just reading this too after writing that:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/28/tony-dungy-lions-coaches-bear-some-blame-for-suh/

And maybe that's what it takes. If you have to punish the organization to get them on board with Suh's behavior being unacceptable, so be it.

No amount of flags or fines is going to change him. It's going to take a double effort from the Lions and the league to do it. He's a great player with more talent than just about any DT ever....but he's going to hurt someone. Possibly intentionally.

jrdrylie
11-28-2011, 11:14 AM
I think the thing that really killed the Bears was the increased use in Marion Barber. There is no reason why Forte should only get two more carries than Barber. Barber played well yesterday, but he took so many carries away from Forte, which negates anything decent he did otherwise.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 11:15 AM
I think the thing that really killed the Bears was the increased use in Marion Barber. There is no reason why Forte should only get two more carries than Barber. Barber played well yesterday, but he took so many carries away from Forte, which negates anything decent he did otherwise.

The Raiders made it a point to keep everything inside, limiting Forte. I'd normally agree with you, but Barber had the hot hand running the ball yesterday.

vidae
11-28-2011, 11:17 AM
Backup QB was one of the bigger needs for the Chiefs in the offseason.. something I thought they addressed with Ricky Stanzi, but he has barely been active so who the **** knows what they're doing.

We'll have a few backups next year when we draft Barkley in the first! What what!

Razor
11-28-2011, 11:25 AM
Great write-up as usual, BB. I'm very much on board with the whole "End Suh's season" thing. What he did was despicable and has no place in football or any other sport not named UFC. If Goodell and the league are serious about cleaning up the game and avoiding injuries they need to make an example of Suh. I don't care who he is or what it means to the team. Coaching is not only X's and O's, it's also educating players as to how to act when on the field and not to let their temper get the best of them. Clearly that doesn't mean much to Schwartz or the organization right now, so making them pay for their lack of educating their players seems like the right thing to do.

DraftSavant
11-28-2011, 11:31 AM
Blaine Gabbert sucks so ******* bad. **** my life.

Brodeur
11-28-2011, 11:39 AM
Give me a ******* break. If the Lions weren't in direct competition with the Bears for the Wild Card, you wouldn't be spouting that horseshit about Suh being suspended for the season. He should be suspended for a game or two and fined, but all he ******* did was a light step on the guys arm. It's not like he curb stomped a guy like Haynesworth, Jesus.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 11:40 AM
Blaine Gabbert sucks so ******* bad. **** my life.

The Jags will need to draft about 3 of these in order for Gabbert's completion percentage to stay past 50 it seems:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/LightningVolt_Barn.jpg

The broader the sides, the better.

The league should also look into limiting pass rushes to one guy when playing Gabbert. Kind of like how in elementary school, the gym teacher would tell you to let the ******** kid get on base playing kickball.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 11:42 AM
Give me a ******* break. If the Lions weren't in direct competition with the Bears for the Wild Card, you wouldn't be spouting that horseshit about Suh being suspended for the season.

Yes I would. I'm all about the league being consistent in the enforcement of it's policies. If they're going to throw flags for any kind of helmet to helmet contact and throw flags for horsecollars when the only thing grabbed is the outside of the jersey, they better damn well suspend the hell out of someone who intentionally stomps on an opponent.

Brodeur
11-28-2011, 11:44 AM
Yes I would. I'm all about the league being consistent in the enforcement of it's policies. If they're going to throw flags for any kind of helmet to helmet contact and throw flags for horsecollars when the only thing grabbed is the outside of the jersey, they better damn well suspend the hell out of someone who intentionally stomps on an opponent.

Those plays are both significantly more dangerous than Suh's stomp, which didn't even remotely hurt whats his face.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 11:46 AM
Those plays are both significantly more dangerous than Suh's stomp, which didn't even remotely hurt whats his face.

It was still stupid as all hell and if he doesn't change his ways soon, he eventually is going to hurt someone. The league knows this.

I'm expecting a 2 game suspension which Suh appeals, gets to play this week, and then the suspension is brought down to 1 game.

That's what I expect at least. A much stronger message should be sent.

Brodeur
11-28-2011, 11:51 AM
It was still stupid as all hell and if he doesn't change his ways soon, he eventually is going to hurt someone. The league knows this.

I'm expecting a 2 game suspension which Suh appeals, gets to play this week, and then the suspension is brought down to 1 game.

That's what I expect at least. A much stronger message should be sent.

No, it shouldn't. He has had two legitimately ugly hits otherwise (both of which were in preseason) that should be seen as a pattern, and this is the first suspendable action he's done. So for a light stomp, of which he's already going to have to take anger management classes for, he should be suspended for 5 games (with no prior suspension history)? Haynesworth legitimately ****** up Andre Gurode's face, so his 5 game suspension was much more deserved here.

Prowler
11-28-2011, 11:52 AM
Suh hasn't been that bad. Its seriously been blown out of proportion. Its almost to the level of "TO being a distraction". He's had a couple bad plays of grabbing facemasks, and then threw a tantrum on Thanksgiving. Frankly, the posh thing right now is to rip on him for being ''dirty''. He'll sit his two games and then be fine. The coaches and front office will talk to him about his behavior and appearance to the media.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 11:55 AM
You make him sound like a light offender when absolutely no one else has done as much stupid **** as him recently. In his 1.5 seasons, he's been fined and now ejected more than nearly anyone else has in the last decade. Haynesworth might be the only one even.

He's doing stupid **** that the league cannot tolerate if it wants to be taken seriously about player safety.

And they need to get the team on board with this behavior being unacceptable. Right now, the Lions don't seem to give a **** at best, and actually encourage it at worst wanting to be seen as "tough."

The league should do whatever it takes to stomp this kind of behavior out.

Pun fully intended.

Philliez01
11-28-2011, 12:01 PM
Do you think Brady Quinn = Blaine Gabbert is an apt comparison? I didn't get to see either play that much but everything I read seems to sound the same. Poor presence, inaccurate, struggles to even manage a game.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 12:07 PM
Do you think Brady Quinn = Blaine Gabbert is an apt comparison? I didn't get to see either play that much but everything I read seems to sound the same. Poor presence, inaccurate, struggles to even manage a game.

I don't know that I'd consider them alike physically or anything like that, but they're definitely similar in that they practically lose bowel control in the pocket and make throws that most high schoolers wouldn't attempt.

At least guys like David Carr and Trent Edwards had the excuse that they got their brains scrambled behind poor o-lines which led to them having terrible pocket presence. Gabbert has no excuse. And watching him take a snap from under center...it's like watching someone handle a live bomb.

Gabbert really puts the theory that height and a good arm are all you need to be a top QB prospect to the test. Footwork, mechanics, pocket presence, accuracy and common sense be damned.

Prowler
11-28-2011, 12:07 PM
It pains me to say it, but he's seriously been victimized by the media. Let's list his horrible plays:

1. Jake Delhomme-throw down, deserved fine
2. Andy Dalton-blatantly tackled, deserved fine
3. Jay Cutler-only a shove, complete bull**** to be fined
4. The Thanksgiving day meltdown

2 years worth. Not exactly worth a huge suspension. The dude is fricken huge and ridiculously strong. He's stronger than his 32 reps at the combine. He lives in the backfield and gets held every game/play.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 12:10 PM
It pains me to say it, but he's seriously been victimized by the media. Let's list his horrible plays:

1. Jake Delhomme-throw down, deserved fine
2. Andy Dalton-blatantly tackled, deserved fine
3. Jay Cutler-only a shove, complete bull**** to be fined
4. The Thanksgiving day meltdown

2 years worth. Not exactly worth a huge suspension. The dude is fricken huge and ridiculously strong. He's stronger than his 32 reps at the combine. He lives in the backfield and gets held every game/play.

That describes every great defender. Yet very few ever lose control and stomp people.

And while that list may seem small when looked at independent, it's still more relative to any other defensive player in the past decade other than perhaps Haynesworth.

Finally, the Thanksgiving play alone is bad, but if that were his only offense, he probably would have been ejected and fined. But given his history (again, think relatively) and the fact that he was basically on a non-official probation because of it, this one is going to get a lot more attention than it otherwise would.

Brodeur
11-28-2011, 12:11 PM
You make him sound like a light offender when absolutely no one else has done as much stupid **** as him recently. In his 1.5 seasons, he's been fined and now ejected more than nearly anyone else has in the last decade. Haynesworth might be the only one even.


He's been ejected one time.

DraftSavant
11-28-2011, 12:16 PM
Do you think Brady Quinn = Blaine Gabbert is an apt comparison? I didn't get to see either play that much but everything I read seems to sound the same. Poor presence, inaccurate, struggles to even manage a game.

Weird cross between Joey Harrington and David Carr.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 12:16 PM
He's been ejected one time.

And who else has been recently? Goldson threw a punch a couple weeks ago. Seymour threw a punch last year.

And those guys haven't ripped the heads off of QBs and haven't met with the commissioner.

Who has been worse at any point in the last decade? No one. Maybe Rodney Harrison in the early part. Maybe Haynesworth because his worst incident was particularly bad.

Suh is easily the dirtiest player going right now relative to the rest of the league and if the NFL wants to be consistent in it's efforts at player safety, they need to make an example of him.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 12:21 PM
Weird cross between Joey Harrington and David Carr.

Joey Harrington....cringe worthy.

I remember this brief time when him, Kevin Jones, Charles Rogers, Roy Williams, Mike Williams, and Ernie Sims, Shaun Cody, Teddy Lehman, Daniel Bullocks and some others were all supposed to be the ****.

They just ended up being really ******.

Complex
11-28-2011, 12:22 PM
6.) End Suh's Season
I think it's the only message the league can send that he may actually receive. The fines he's been getting are nothing more than pocket change to the former #2 overall pick pre-rookie cap.

A game or two suspension might wake him up a little, but send the absolute strongest message possible and end his season. I guarantee he changes starting next year after that.

Additionally, no matter how long he's suspended, the Lions should still sit him during any appeal. If he appeals and is allowed to play this week, it's a travesty. To quote Mike Periera, "he's not dirty, he's filthy."

If the league wants it's efforts to protect the players to be taken seriously, they need to be protected from themselves. Suspending Suh for the year would send a message to absolutely everyone that this behavior will not be tolerated.

The league won't. But they should. If I were the commish (and everyone should be thankful that I am not,) the banhammer would be out in full force on this one.

That's all I've got for this week. There may be some other stuff but this is what I came up with offhand. If you want to ask me something else, feel free to do so in the thread. If I think of anything or something crazy happens in tonight's game, I'll update this later.

LOL your kidding right? your trying to controversial?

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 12:23 PM
LOL your kidding right? your trying to controversial?

Heh, maybe a little. It was my Skip Bayless moment. I said earlier what I think will happen....2 game suspension, Suh appeals, plays this week, gets the suspension reduced to 1.

But I like being extreme.

Raiderz4Life
11-28-2011, 01:07 PM
Always love your write ups BB. But I as well think you're going a little overboard with the whole Suh situation. It was bad but it wasn't THAT bad.

Also, whatever little confidence Gabbert had, I think they might have just shattered with the benching. You have to treat him very delicately and they're not doing that.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 01:09 PM
They shouldn't need to handle him delicately. He's a professional quarterback. Not all rookies play well, but most show flashes of potential to build on. Ponder has shown them. Newton has shown plenty of them. Dalton barely plays like a rookie.

But Gabbert just shows suck....and more suck.

Sloopy
11-28-2011, 01:11 PM
Since tonight's game may actually be a good one seeing as how the Giants play up/down to their competition, I considered saving this until tomorrow.

But I had enough things I wanted to talk about even without it, so here we are again this week.

1.) Backup QBs are Important


The league currently features two situations in which likely playoff teams are currently sporting their backup and even their 3rd string QB. Both the Bears and the Texans, owing mostly to easy schedules the rest of the way and solid-to-great supporting casts can still make the playoffs with backups at QB.

Like I said before the season, I think teams need to have a backup that they feel can go at least .500 in any starts he may have to make. One or two losses can completely change the season. For instance, last year, the Bears went 11-5 and were the #2 seed in the NFC earning a bye week. The Giants and Bucs were left out of the playoffs completely at 10-6...just a ONE GAME DIFFERENCE between the #2 seed and sitting at home in January.

So, with that all said, why don't teams have more respect for the backup QB position?

Ideally, this is a guy who will never see the field. But rarely is that the case unless you've got a guy named Favre or Manning. As I've pointed out several times, it's unrealistic to expect every backup QB to be the next Kurt Warner, or even Matt Cassel, but I don't think it's unrealistic to have a guy who can keep your team afloat.

So why do teams seem to constantly ignore the position before the season? In some cases, I understand why team went out to find a veteran backup, such as the Bears and Texans. Both had rookie 3rd stringers who likely weren't up to the task of becoming the new backup.

But for the Raiders, what is the excuse? They had all preseason to see Kyle Boller play and decided that he must have been good enough to be the backup QB then. Jason Campbell gets hurt, and then the team panics throwing quality draft picks out for a veteran. Yes, Kyle Boller sucks, but why didn't the team have a better backup plan before the season even started?

Similar arguments could be made for the Colts and Chiefs. Even someone as durable as Peyton Manning was bound to miss time eventually. But the team stuck with the completely unproven Curtis Painter as the backup...up until Peyton actually began to miss time. Then they suddenly panicked and overpaid Kerry Collins to bring him out of retirement for a game. Similarly, the Chiefs, with playoff aspirations, had no quarrel going with Tyler Palko as Matt Cassel's backup, but as soon as he struggled in his first start, they panicked and brought in Kyle Orton who will likely be starting sooner rather than later with no experience in the system. ("Knows the system" is typically overrated in my opinion and Todd Collins is a great example of that, but signing a guy to start for your team in the middle of season is one case where that guy better be familiar with the system.)

In all of these cases, I feel that the team could have done a better job filling the backup QB position. In my opinion, teams should look at the backup QB as a guy who is likely to see action. If they don't feel he can keep them afloat if the starter goes down, they should find someone else who they think can.

Now, you could very well be sitting there saying "BeerBaron, there aren't even enough quality QBs to fill 32 starter slots, much less backups!" And you may be correct. But here is a list of current backup QBs I like and who I would have offered mid-round picks to acquire if necessary:

- Billy Volek (was a free agent prior to this season)
- Seneca Wallace (would have offered a 5th, up to a 3rd if really desperate)
- Vince Young (was a free agent prior to this season)
- Matt Moore (was a free agent prior to this season)
- Bruce Gradkowski (was a free agent prior to this season)

And that's just ones I can think of offhand. And most, I could have signed as free agents. I'd trust any one of those guys to keep a team afloat in 1-4 starts if pressed into duty. Or at least I'd trust them more than Curtis Painter, Kyle Boller, Tyler Palko......

Finally, you may argue expense. None of those guys are on particularly large salaries. I'd gladly pay an extra million if it meant staying alive while your starting QB is out.

I don't think its necessarily a case of ignoring the backup but this league has too many teams and not enough truly starting caliber QBs to go around many guys with backup talent end up starting on other teams.

2.) What to make of the Texans
It just keeps getting worse while the team manages to keep on winning. Given the supporting cast, it's likely that any available QB could probably pilot the Texans to the playoffs still. The defense is smothering, Foster and the o-line are humming, and all you need to do is hock up a pass towards Andre every once in a while to keep the defense honest.

But any team who could draw the Texans in the first round of the playoffs would have to be salivating. Kellen Clemons or TJ Yates? In the playoffs? The Texans are doomed.

Looking at the veteran ranks doesn't turn up much. A case could be made for the Texans to try picking at the carcasses of Daunte Culpepper or Jeff Garcia. Hell, Jake Plummer isn't doing anything nowadays. Give him a call. I think he played in Kubiak's offense. There's also Favre which....well, suffice it to say we should all pray that doesn't happen.

PFT suggested something today which could be up the Texans' alley. If Kyle Orton could get his release in Denver by simply asking, Donovan McNabb should try the same thing. As bad as he's been these last two years, he's still probably a better option than rookie Yates or street FA Clemons.

This team should still make the playoffs, but anything beyond a one-and-done would come as an absolute shock to me.

Might be able to but then again with the current backup situation we just discussed, why would a team let go of a viable backup? :P

3.) QBs I don't like update 3.0
-Tebow - Well, this is just getting sad. Granted, I had no real faith in the Chargers but that's a whole 'nother story. Playing games this close is akin to playing with fire and eventually, they're going to get burned.

I also like how the Tebow story has completely overshadowed Von Miller's impact on the team. He's playing out of his mind right now and, like I said last week, is a bigger reason for the team's success than Tebow. I didn't see Tebow making the tackle for a loss to knock the Chargers into worse FG range for their OT miss. I haven't seen Tebow rack up 4 sacks in their last 3 games, all wins.

But, no one cares about that. Even Football Night in America, when talking about the highlights of the game, started off saying "Tim Tebow beats the Chargers." Not the Broncos. Tim Tebow, alone and by himself, beat the San Diego Chargers. Apparently.

Don't forget god: God and Tebow beat the Chargers.

-Carson Palmer - I've gotten first hand looks at Palmer for the past several weeks now, and my opinion stays the same. He's making a few plays, but he was so close to pissing that Bears game away on several occasions. The Bears dropped several would-be interceptions and if not for throwing to the FB, who the Bears apparently could not or would not cover, Palmer's stay line would be even more mediocre. The Raiders got away with this one, but I can't see Palmer taking this team anywhere beyond a one-and-done int he playoffs.

I have the Broncos in the playoffs with that defense. I know I sound like a broken record every week in this section, but it still makes me laugh every time I think about the people on this board who were saying that Carson Palmer wouldn't bring them to any less than an AFC championship game.

-Blaine Gabbert - He's ******* terrible. Absolutely terrible. I'll admit to being a QB prospect elitist, but my dislike of Gabbert last year was shared by surprisingly many and for good reason. We're being proven right in this one. The guy has just awful accuracy and his pocket presence is one of the worst I've ever, ever seen. As soon as an 11th defender sets foot on the field, he panics. Bust bust bust. What's that you say, give him more time? He's just a rookie? No. Bust. The team may be required by draft law to give him more than one year, but I'm not. Bust.

Time will tell but I tend to agree with you. I remember before Luck declared he was going back to school this guy wasn't even talked about as the #2 QB, then all of the sudden he's the #1 because Luck went back to school?


5.) Hot Seat Watch
- Norv Turner - He's done. I don't even know if he lasts the year at this point. He should make for a hell of an offensive coordinator free agent though.

PLEASE GIVE HIM TO THE RAVENS. **** CAM

- Andy Reid - I still maintain that he'll resign. If he doesn't, the Eagles should fire him. He's had a good run, but sometimes you have to take a step back before you can take two forward. The team may need to be blown up as well. It's sad because talent is there, but it's a dysfunctional mess.Take your chances with someone else, because Andy Reid with this group isn't going to win you a Superbowl.

This was Reid's last shot. They went and got him a team that could win to see what he could do with top talent and he failed miserably.

- Bill Polian - I keep pleading with Indy to get rid of this clown. Rebuild with Luck! No one, not one GM or head coach in this league should ever be allowed to keep his job after a potentially winless season. This goes beyond Peyton's injury to a poorly built team. His system is flawed and does not build anything but regular season champions at best.

Could have a huge discussion about this one and my hate for BP but I think everything that can be said has been said many a time before in other threads... **** you BP

6.) End Suh's Season
I think it's the only message the league can send that he may actually receive. The fines he's been getting are nothing more than pocket change to the former #2 overall pick pre-rookie cap.

A game or two suspension might wake him up a little, but send the absolute strongest message possible and end his season. I guarantee he changes starting next year after that.

Additionally, no matter how long he's suspended, the Lions should still sit him during any appeal. If he appeals and is allowed to play this week, it's a travesty. To quote Mike Periera, "he's not dirty, he's filthy."

If the league wants it's efforts to protect the players to be taken seriously, they need to be protected from themselves. Suspending Suh for the year would send a message to absolutely everyone that this behavior will not be tolerated.

The league won't. But they should. If I were the commish (and everyone should be thankful that I am not,) the banhammer would be out in full force on this one.

That's all I've got for this week. There may be some other stuff but this is what I came up with offhand. If you want to ask me something else, feel free to do so in the thread. If I think of anything or something crazy happens in tonight's game, I'll update this later.

Interesting but unfortunately others have done much worse and gotten away with it.

Jughead10
11-28-2011, 01:11 PM
You just have to pray that your QB doesn't get hurt. There aren't enough QBs around to get 32 starters. The only time you should really invest in a backup is in case like the Eagles where you know your QB is going to get hit.

There are very few capable veteran who openly accept a backup position. Are there even 3 in the league right now? Shaun Hill, Brunnel, I dunno who else. Other than that you have to scout really well and hope you got yourself a winner in the mid round of the draft.

jrdrylie
11-28-2011, 01:13 PM
For what it's worth, there is also talk that he punched a Packer last year. I can't find the video, but I've heard a couple journalists talk about it.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 01:17 PM
You just have to pray that your QB doesn't get hurt. There aren't enough QBs around to get 32 starters. The only time you should really invest in a backup is in case like the Eagles where you know your QB is going to get hit.

There are very few capable veteran who openly accept a backup position. Are there even 3 in the league right now? Shaun Hill, Brunnel, I dunno who else. Other than that you have to scout really well and hope you got yourself a winner in the mid round of the draft.

Shaun Hill
Billy Volek
Seneca Wallace
Jon Kitna
Brunell (kind of old but since you mentioned him, we'll throw him in)
Bruce Gradkowski (may have been tempted to Cincy with a chance to start but Dalton won it)

Those are just some veterans that have accepted their backup roles it seems.

Most QBs eventually do get hurt, regardless of the amount prayed. You should have faith in your backup QB, but it seems like most teams don't and as soon as he's needed, they're off scrambling for another veteran.

Raiderz4Life
11-28-2011, 01:24 PM
They shouldn't need to handle him delicately. He's a professional quarterback. Not all rookies play well, but most show flashes of potential to build on. Ponder has shown them. Newton has shown plenty of them. Dalton barely plays like a rookie.

But Gabbert just shows suck....and more suck.

They shouldn't have to but they picked him in round 1 with the intention of him being their guy. Everyone and their grandma knew he wasn't there mentally and they should have known it too. They should have known this as well and known that throwing him into the fire was only going to cause him to burn out a lot quicker and have zero chance to actually do something.

bigbluedefense
11-28-2011, 01:27 PM
Blaine Gabbert is Jimmy Clausen bad.

In fact, he might be worse than Jimmy Clausen.

Jughead10
11-28-2011, 01:29 PM
Shaun Hill
Billy Volek
Seneca Wallace
Jon Kitna
Brunell (kind of old but since you mentioned him, we'll throw him in)
Bruce Gradkowski (may have been tempted to Cincy with a chance to start but Dalton won it)

Those are just some veterans that have accepted their backup roles it seems.

Most QBs eventually do get hurt, regardless of the amount prayed. You should have faith in your backup QB, but it seems like most teams don't and as soon as he's needed, they're off scrambling for another veteran.

But a lot of those guys are still very unproven. Kitna I'll give you. Seneca Wallace? I wouldn't want him on my team other than for trick plays.

Giantsfan1080
11-28-2011, 01:29 PM
Blaine Gabbert is Jimmy Clausen bad.

In fact, he might be worse than Jimmy Clausen.

http://t.qkme.me/35ae8w.jpg

10 character

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 01:34 PM
But a lot of those guys are still very unproven. Kitna I'll give you. Seneca Wallace? I wouldn't want him on my team other than for trick plays.

Wallace has started 18 games and hasn't been terrible. He's more proven that a good 75% of the other backup QBs in the league I'd wager. 60% accuracy, just under 2-1 TD-INT ratio, can do some running...I'd take him as a playoff caliber team over a 4 game stretch over just about any other true backup...right up there with Kitna and Volek. (I have an inordinate fascination with Volek, I admit this openly...)

Additionally, with Wallace, you get someone who can do a little running. I think that's important in a backup QB. If all else fails, he can just pull the ball down and take off. Hanie did it once yesterday to convert a 3rd and long. It's a nice trick to have as a final backup plan.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 01:38 PM
Also, Gabbert is bad but Clausen....wow. Clausen was one of the most pathetic looking players I've ever seen late last year. The guy did not belong on the football field in any capacity.

Gabbert isn't quite there. Yet.

TimmG6376
11-28-2011, 01:47 PM
Great write-up as usual, BB. I'm very much on board with the whole "End Suh's season" thing. What he did was despicable and has no place in football or any other sport not named UFC. If Goodell and the league are serious about cleaning up the game and avoiding injuries they need to make an example of Suh. I don't care who he is or what it means to the team. Coaching is not only X's and O's, it's also educating players as to how to act when on the field and not to let their temper get the best of them. Clearly that doesn't mean much to Schwartz or the organization right now, so making them pay for their lack of educating their players seems like the right thing to do.

Even in the UFC you cannot stomp a grounded opponent. That is how despicable his actions were.

Raiderz4Life
11-28-2011, 01:51 PM
Great write-up as usual, BB. I'm very much on board with the whole "End Suh's season" thing. What he did was despicable and has no place in football or any other sport not named UFC. If Goodell and the league are serious about cleaning up the game and avoiding injuries they need to make an example of Suh. I don't care who he is or what it means to the team. Coaching is not only X's and O's, it's also educating players as to how to act when on the field and not to let their temper get the best of them. Clearly that doesn't mean much to Schwartz or the organization right now, so making them pay for their lack of educating their players seems like the right thing to do.

Btw...UFC is an organization not a sport...the sport would be MMA.

bigbluedefense
11-28-2011, 02:00 PM
Also, with the passing attack being so emphasized nowadays, losing your qb impacts your team even more. You build your entire offense around the qb, if he goes down, you can't just pick a guy up and manage without your starter.

The best way to get around this is being built around defense and the run game, but most teams aren't built this way anymore.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 02:02 PM
Also, with the passing attack being so emphasized nowadays, losing your qb impacts your team even more. You build your entire offense around the qb, if he goes down, you can't just pick a guy up and manage without your starter.

The best way to get around this is being built around defense and the run game, but most teams aren't built this way anymore.

You can certainly find guys to run the offense better than teams have been. Like I've said, .500 is all I'd ask for out of a backup QB on a playoff caliber team. As long as the starter can come back eventually, a .500 performance out of the backup would usually be enough to keep the team afloat.

jth1331
11-28-2011, 02:08 PM
1. I think people forget that the Lions are coached by Schwartz, who was known for coaching dirty players in Tennessee.
2. TEBOW BABY! Broncos 6-5! Yeah!
3. I never understood why Gabbert was so highly regarded by people. Guy was average at Missouri, and suddenly he's a top 10 pick?

Prowler
11-28-2011, 02:08 PM
MMA comparisons are ridiculous. I swear Packers fans and random people who kinda saw the game are making this into some kinda tragic head bashing and leg slashing melee. He put his foot down into the guy's arm one time because he was frustrated. He was kicked out of the game and has been subjected to ridicule, fines, and probably suspension. Let it go. Go focus your humane efforts on child sex trade or something worthwhile. He was playing football(quite an emotional game) and let his emotions get the best of him. He'll be dealt with appropriately. His punishment will probably be less than a DUI Murder and more than domestic battery...

Prowler
11-28-2011, 02:13 PM
Also, I fully agree with BB's backup quarterback thinking. I think teams and head coaches are driven by a win now mentality and don't invest enough time into their quarterbacks. Why do teams need a 23 year old savior every year? Why are 25 year old former 1st rounders busts? Most 23 year olds can still barely drive, let alone command the respect of their teammates, understand and run an offense, and handle the pressure of not only being an NFL player, but the face of the entire team. Spend some mid-round picks and develop talent in your system GMs! Or at least trade for some veteran guys who can handle a few of those requirements.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 02:16 PM
3. I never understood why Gabbert was so highly regarded by people. Guy was average at Missouri, and suddenly he's a top 10 pick?

Perceived physical tools. Tall with a strong arm = franchise QB apparently.

vidae
11-28-2011, 02:34 PM
The ****** thing about the Chiefs is that we've been a run first team so maybe (big maybe here) you could go into the season with Palko as your backup QB, but then Jamaal Charles is lost for the year and now you have to transition to a passing attack because Thomas Jones sucks.. and then Cassel goes down, etc.

Just a perfect storm of garbage for KC.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 02:34 PM
I guess I need to talk about the Giants or Patriots in order to make these things last a little longer, eh? ;)

vidae
11-28-2011, 02:35 PM
No one really wants to talk about Tyler Palko or Curtis Painter, haha.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 02:37 PM
No one really wants to talk about Tyler Palko or Curtis Painter, haha.

Well I ******* do! Straight up Vidae, would you rather have Palko right now or have brought Brodie Croyle back?

vidae
11-28-2011, 02:38 PM
Palko. We already knew Brodie Croyle sucked.. most of us just assumed Palko sucked but we hadn't seen it yet.

Now we know they both suck! And I swear to god if I hear "I MEAN, PALKO WAS THE REASON FLACCO TRANSFERRED!!11!1111" one more time I'm going to snap. Flacco transferred because the Pitt coaching staff was ********, not because Palko was the better QB.

Raiderz4Life
11-28-2011, 02:38 PM
I guess I need to talk about the Giants or Patriots in order to make these things last a little longer, eh? ;)

You need a little more Aaron Rodgers

Rosebud
11-28-2011, 02:38 PM
I wonder what Drew Wily is up to?

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 02:42 PM
Palko. We already knew Brodie Croyle sucked.. most of us just assumed Palko sucked but we hadn't seen it yet.

Now we know they both suck! And I swear to god if I hear "I MEAN, PALKO WAS THE REASON FLACCO TRANSFERRED!!11!1111" one more time I'm going to snap. Flacco transferred because the Pitt coaching staff was ********, not because Palko was the better QB.

Did you know that Palko was at Pitt at the same time as Flacco, and was the reason he transferred? Palko must be pretty good since Flacco turned out good.

And he was on the practice squad in Pittsburgh and New Orleans! He probably learned so much in those places. He has to be good.

You need a little more Aaron Rodgers

I already mentioned Tebow. Only so much I handle....

I wonder what Drew Wily is up to?

Someone bring back Colt Brennan while we're at it. Or no, **** that, Timmy Chang.

Hurricanes25
11-28-2011, 02:44 PM
I wonder what Drew Wily is up to?

He actually looked decent in the preseason with the Jets this year.

Rosebud
11-28-2011, 02:45 PM
Andre Woodson and Rhett Bomar laugh at this thread.

Speaking of Bomar what happened to him? I really thought he was going to turn into something and then we traded for Rosencopter so the team didn't need to keep developing since we had what we thought was a dependable vet.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 02:45 PM
He actually looked decent in the preseason with the Jets this year.

No. You had McElroy. Jets QBs are apparently required to have pea shooter arms.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 02:46 PM
Andre Woodson and Rhett Bomar laugh at this thread.

Speaking of Bomar what happened to him? I really thought he was going to turn into something and then we traded for Rosencopter so the team didn't need to keep developing since we had what we thought was a dependable vet.

I'm too lazy and close to the end of my shift to check but I think he got another DUI or something. I believe he's out of football.

shylo3716
11-28-2011, 02:47 PM
5.) Hot Seat Watch
- Andy Reid - I still maintain that he'll resign. If he doesn't, the Eagles should fire him. He's had a good run, but sometimes you have to take a step back before you can take two forward. The team may need to be blown up as well. It's sad because talent is there, but it's a dysfunctional mess.Take your chances with someone else, because Andy Reid with this group isn't going to win you a Superbowl.

I just want to piggy-back off this...

**** Andy Reid!!! You mean to tell me yesterday, when we were down 21-10 in the first half, with the ball in the redzone he does not run the ball not 1 time with Shady, but insists on passing 3 downs in a row to only get a FG out of the drive. If we would have scored on a run play that would have put us within 4 to keep us in the game. C'MON MAN!!! Dude is so fired after the season and he just don't know it.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cYPbgHbGAh8/TtL3DH6j2kI/AAAAAAAAI1k/I3JIST9yMZU/s320/it%2527s%2Ba%2Bmovement.jpg

Rosebud
11-28-2011, 02:47 PM
He actually looked decent in the preseason with the Jets this year.

I really like that guy and it's not just because I had a lot of fun at UB while he and James Starks made that team respectable. Moves well, is a competitor, isn't an idiot and doesn't panic whenever something goes bad.

Hurricanes25
11-28-2011, 02:47 PM
No. You had McElroy. Jets QBs are apparently required to have pea shooter arms.

Haha McElroy's arm is by far the worst in the NFL.

jrdrylie
11-28-2011, 02:49 PM
Well I ******* do! Straight up Vidae, would you rather have Palko right now or have brought Brodie Croyle back?

I would love for someone to bring Brodie Croyle back. I'd like to how many starts it takes until he gets his first win. I actually thought he was going to be a decent player in the NFL. But it's hard to feel bad for the guy, he has a hot wife with big boobs so he is doing pretty well in life.

noondog
11-28-2011, 02:49 PM
And who else has been recently? Goldson threw a punch a couple weeks ago. Seymour threw a punch last year.
And those guys haven't ripped the heads off of QBs and haven't met with the commissioner.

Who has been worse at any point in the last decade? No one. Maybe Rodney Harrison in the early part. Maybe Haynesworth because his worst incident was particularly bad.

Suh is easily the dirtiest player going right now relative to the rest of the league and if the NFL wants to be consistent in it's efforts at player safety, they need to make an example of him.

You understand of course that Suh initiated the meeting with the commissioner. The fact doesn't support your argument.

Joey Harrington....cringe worthy.

I remember this brief time when him, Kevin Jones, Charles Rogers, Roy Williams, Mike Williams, and Ernie Sims, Shaun Cody, Teddy Lehman, Daniel Bullocks and some others were all supposed to be the ****.

They just ended up being really ******.

If there was any doubt of your complete lack of objectivity towards Suh and the Lions, this made it blatantly obvious.

Everyone knows that what Suh did is juvenile and dangerous, and he'll be reprimanded for it accordingly. Suspend for the rest of the season? Not so much. That's just a Bear fan talking nonsense about a division rival.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 02:50 PM
Haha McElroy's arm is by far the worst in the NFL.

There are a few that could challenge him I think, but once this man hits an NFL roster, he's hands down the weakest:

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/IMAGES/PHO/AAHI016.jpg

err....no wait. That was last decade.

http://heismanpundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/kellen-moore-heisman.jpg

There we go.

Raiderz4Life
11-28-2011, 02:50 PM
I'm too lazy and close to the end of my shift to check but I think he got another DUI or something. I believe he's out of football.

Yea he got a 3rd degree DUI back in august.

49erNation85
11-28-2011, 02:51 PM
Man you hate Tebow so much its funny.I dunno why you keep up at it like this. I mean his WINNING it is all that matters in the league and for a QB. His numbers are improving 9/14 just under 190 yards. With more and more playing time he will get better and be a franchise QB in Denver ( next Elway) His throwing motion should not matter it doesn't seem to as he played so much better then Rivers did on Sunday. So stop the hate and believe in Tebow!

Raiderz4Life
11-28-2011, 02:52 PM
I would love for someone to bring Brodie Croyle back. I'd like to how many starts it takes until he gets his first win. I actually thought he was going to be a decent player in the NFL. But it's hard to feel bad for the guy, he has a hot wife with big boobs so he is doing pretty well in life.

I thought he was gonna be good too. Another guy I wanted on the Raiders, his wife is mighty fine though.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 02:52 PM
Man you hate Tebow so much its funny.I dunno why you keep up at it like this. I mean his WINNING it is all that matters in the league and for a QB. His numbers are improving 9/14 just under 190 yards. With more and more playing time he will get better and be a franchise QB in Denver ( next Elway) His throwing motion should not matter it doesn't seem to as he played so much better then Rivers did on Sunday. So stop the hate and believe in Tebow!

I most certainty will not. Crusades will have to be launched against me before I've ever considering doing such a thing.

Raiderz4Life
11-28-2011, 02:57 PM
Andre Woodson and Rhett Bomar laugh at this thread.

Speaking of Bomar what happened to him? I really thought he was going to turn into something and then we traded for Rosencopter so the team didn't need to keep developing since we had what we thought was a dependable vet.

http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n551/wrestlerj91/206233437_d9e362a354.jpg

Hurricanes25
11-28-2011, 03:02 PM
There are a few that could challenge him I think, but once this man hits an NFL roster, he's hands down the weakest:

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/IMAGES/PHO/AAHI016.jpg

err....no wait. That was last decade.

http://heismanpundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/kellen-moore-heisman.jpg

There we go.

I concur. No need to debate that one.

jrdrylie
11-28-2011, 03:03 PM
Man you hate Tebow so much its funny.I dunno why you keep up at it like this. I mean his WINNING it is all that matters in the league and for a QB. His numbers are improving 9/14 just under 190 yards. With more and more playing time he will get better and be a franchise QB in Denver ( next Elway) His throwing motion should not matter it doesn't seem to as he played so much better then Rivers did on Sunday. So stop the hate and believe in Tebow!

Actually he was 9/18 for 143. But his first half is what most of us have a problem with. The first four drives resulted in a punt. He didn't complete his first pass until 26 minutes into the game. Rewind to last week. They had five drives start in New York territory. They got three points out of it.

Look, I'm cheering for Tebow. I hope he does well. But he isn't hard to beat. His teams are absolutely terrible in the first half. They are so bad that even Indianapolis would have a half time lead on them. When they actually face a good offense (not the AFC West and the Jets), they will get killed because they will fall behind 21-3 at half time and that is a lead that can't be overcome even with Tebow Magic.

bigbluedefense
11-28-2011, 03:10 PM
You can certainly find guys to run the offense better than teams have been. Like I've said, .500 is all I'd ask for out of a backup QB on a playoff caliber team. As long as the starter can come back eventually, a .500 performance out of the backup would usually be enough to keep the team afloat.

I think you're overvaluing these proven commodities. Older and experienced doesn't always mean you're better. Most of those guys just plain suck.

Raiderz4Life
11-28-2011, 03:10 PM
People want to keep saying, "Yea he doesn't get big stats but he doesn't turn the ball over" Well he's not picking up 1st downs either so its not like he's doing much anyways. He's not giving the ball away via turnover but they've had to punt a great deal.

49erNation85
11-28-2011, 03:10 PM
My bad on the numbers . And you are right on first half numbers. I'm sure in time he will get better and get a more feel for the game as he gets more and more reps just look how his passes are already improving with some real game time.

MidwayMonster31
11-28-2011, 03:11 PM
I thought the 2 game suspension on Suh was fair. It really doesn't make a difference for reputation when something like that happens. Personally, I think Jim Schwartz is encouraging that kind of stuff on the Lions as a whole and not just Suh.

BeerBaron
11-28-2011, 03:17 PM
I thought the 2 game suspension on Suh was fair. It really doesn't make a difference for reputation when something like that happens. Personally, I think Jim Schwartz is encouraging that kind of stuff on the Lions as a whole and not just Suh.

And like the Steelers, that is a problem for the league.

jth1331
11-28-2011, 03:23 PM
Actually he was 9/18 for 143. But his first half is what most of us have a problem with. The first four drives resulted in a punt. He didn't complete his first pass until 26 minutes into the game. Rewind to last week. They had five drives start in New York territory. They got three points out of it.

Look, I'm cheering for Tebow. I hope he does well. But he isn't hard to beat. His teams are absolutely terrible in the first half. They are so bad that even Indianapolis would have a half time lead on them. When they actually face a good offense (not the AFC West and the Jets), they will get killed because they will fall behind 21-3 at half time and that is a lead that can't be overcome even with Tebow Magic.

Broncos 1st drive starting at 28 yard line:
6 runs to the San Diego 44 yard line, on 3rd and 5 Tebow throws a pass low to D. Thomas who ran the route short anyway(an out route). Bad pass, punt

Broncos 2nd drive starting at 38 yard line:
2 runs to the 49, then a deep pass to Decker which was barely missed by Decker and Weddle. Not a bad pass, not a great pass.
3 runs later, its 3rd and 8 at the San Diego 38 yard line. Tebow rolls out left and throws a perfect pass to Royal to only where he can catch it, and he drops it. Complete drop that would've been a first down.

Broncos 3rd drive starting on their own 7 yard line, and then a false start backing them up to the 3.
1st down, run by McGahee for 3 yards.
2nd down, Tebow scrambles and ends up throwing it away
3rd down, Tebow scrambles and ends up running for 4 yards
Punt, nobody was open.

Broncos 4th drive, starting at own 7 yard line again
2 runs, and then a bubble screen to Decker who picks up a 1st down on 3rd and 3. Nice easy pitch and catch.
Then 3 runs, and a punt.

Broncos 5th drive starting at San Diego 46
Tebow scrambles for 3 yards, then makes a nice easy throw to Fells who fumbles, and luckily Denver recovers. A penalty on San Diego, and then Tebow makes a great throw to Decker for the TD.

2 times starting with crappy field position, a drop, and terrible playcalling.

TimmG6376
11-28-2011, 03:33 PM
Actually he was 9/18 for 143. But his first half is what most of us have a problem with. The first four drives resulted in a punt. He didn't complete his first pass until 26 minutes into the game. Rewind to last week. They had five drives start in New York territory. They got three points out of it.

Look, I'm cheering for Tebow. I hope he does well. But he isn't hard to beat. His teams are absolutely terrible in the first half. They are so bad that even Indianapolis would have a half time lead on them. When they actually face a good offense (not the AFC West and the Jets), they will get killed because they will fall behind 21-3 at half time and that is a lead that can't be overcome even with Tebow Magic.

I agree, except I'm not rooting for him. Simply because as long as he keeps winning the Bayless "I'm right and you are all wrong" act continues.

If somehow AP can play I think the Vikings might actually have a shot. Mathews racked up 124 yds. If the game stays close and AP gets 22 carries he'll do enough damage to give them a chance.

Babylon
11-28-2011, 04:34 PM
Always a good read from the Beer Man. A couple of things i would comment on:

Give Suh a game for the kick on the Packer and another for being a repeat offender but let's not go overboard just because the league has gotten pretty soft.

Blaine Gabbert is most guilty of being a rookie. Yeah he's been bad but you could make an argument he shouldnt be out there. With any of these guys you dont form too many opinions on the first season.

Houston to me is a potential powerhouse a year or two down the road. When healthy they are loaded on offense and their defense has been tough even with the loss of Mario Williams. There may be some teams ahead of them as far as who goes where in the playoffs but the Texans arent far away from the Superbowl, at least that's how i see it.

vidae
11-28-2011, 04:40 PM
Blaine Gabbert is most guilty of being a rookie. Yeah he's been bad but you could make an argument he shouldnt be out there. With any of these guys you dont form too many opinions on the first season.


Normally I'd agree, but Blaine Gabbert looks REALLY bad, even for a rookie. He looks like he's scared of any and all contact and constantly makes bad decisions because of it.

Someone who is that scared of contact will probably not make it in the NFL.

MetSox17
11-28-2011, 04:53 PM
Yeah, it's not like you can chalk some of his terrible play to 'rookie mistakes'. Most rookie mistakes consist of the player doing something he's accustomed to doing at the college level, and it just simply doesn't in the pros. Gabbert looks like a chicken with it's head cut off in the pocket.

J-Mike88
11-28-2011, 05:01 PM
6.) End Suh's Season
I think it's the only message the league can send that he may actually receive. The fines he's been getting are nothing more than pocket change to the former #2 overall pick pre-rookie cap.
Unlike the Lion fans here, I totally agree with you.
The purpose of the suspension and fine is to try and get the dirty (Pereira says filthy) player to clean up.
A one game slap on the wrist won't do it.
Suh is in denial. That much anyone can see. For him to talk after the game and lie to us all and say he lost his balance? Really? Reaaaaaaaally?

Raiderz4Life
11-28-2011, 05:15 PM
Unlike the Lion fans here, I totally agree with you.
The purpose of the suspension and fine is to try and get the dirty (Pereira says filthy) player to clean up.
A one game slap on the wrist won't do it.
Suh is in denial. That much anyone can see. For him to talk after the game and lie to us all and say he lost his balance? Really? Reaaaaaaaally?

Of course you would.

Funny how you start off with "Unlike the Lion fans here", pretty rich coming from a packer fan...specially you.

J-Mike88
11-28-2011, 05:21 PM
Of course you would.

Funny how you start off with "Unlike the Lion fans here", pretty rich coming from a packer fan...specially you.
Well of course no Lions fan would agree with it.
But BB and I don't just say that because he's a Lion.
The Lions aren't even threats to us this season, why would you think I am siding with BB because of the Lions angle?

I just hate dirty defensive players.

There are enough **** injuries in the league without dirty guys possibly injuring someone on purpose because he's a maniac. Send the message as BB said.

ATLDirtyBirds
11-28-2011, 05:42 PM
I want in on killing Gabbert. I'll admit, I did become a fan of his during his last year at Mizzou just by watching the games live. But then through out the draft process, when I (and most others) got a chance to break him down, this was pretty obviously coming. He sucks and plays like a *****... as a ******* quarterback. It's embarrassing.

Caddy
11-28-2011, 05:46 PM
Backup QB was one of the bigger needs for the Chiefs in the offseason.. something I thought they addressed with Ricky Stanzi, but he has barely been active so who the **** knows what they're doing.

We'll have a few backups next year when we draft Barkley in the first! What what!

But don't you guys have Matt Cassel? I've been led to believe he is pretty legit.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
11-28-2011, 06:04 PM
You make him sound like a light offender when absolutely no one else has done as much stupid **** as him recently. In his 1.5 seasons, he's been fined and now ejected more than nearly anyone else has in the last decade. Haynesworth might be the only one even.

He's doing stupid **** that the league cannot tolerate if it wants to be taken seriously about player safety.

And they need to get the team on board with this behavior being unacceptable. Right now, the Lions don't seem to give a **** at best, and actually encourage it at worst wanting to be seen as "tough."

The league should do whatever it takes to stomp this kind of behavior out.

Pun fully intended.
I still contend what Dunta Robinson did with helmet to helmet contact is just as bad if not worse. It just wasn't on a quarterback.

prock
11-29-2011, 04:31 AM
I want in on killing Gabbert. I'll admit, I did become a fan of his during his last year at Mizzou just by watching the games live. But then through out the draft process, when I (and most others) got a chance to break him down, this was pretty obviously coming. He sucks and plays like a *****... as a ******* quarterback. It's embarrassing.

I think if we went back through the DC records, we would find very, very few Gabbert supporters right before the draft. If anyone has the desire to find anything like that, that would be neat.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
11-29-2011, 04:58 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGu44HgmH54

3:55

Only you Blaine Gabbert, only you make new mistakes after learning from old mistakes...

BeerBaron
11-29-2011, 05:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGu44HgmH54

3:55

Only you Blaine Gabbert, only you make new mistakes after learning from old mistakes...

"Two pump fakes...and a sack."

I think if we went back through the DC records, we would find very, very few Gabbert supporters right before the draft. If anyone has the desire to find anything like that, that would be neat.

That's what I meant about me not being alone in my thinking on this one. A lot of times, I'm just being a QB elitist and overly pessimistic about guys who lack what I want in a QB.

But many people had concerns with Gabbert. Many people except the Jaguars for some reason.

BeerBaron
11-29-2011, 07:21 AM
Also, here are a few of the Gabbert threads from last year:

This one is complete with "the natural"'s commentary:
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47160&highlight=Gabbert

Another:
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46926&highlight=Gabbert

Damn, it seems like the guy's biggest supporter was the natural. So many posts read something like "I'm not a huge fan of Gabbert..." Perhaps not worded exactly like that, but similarly.

BTW, Gabbert WISHES he was Boller v1.2. Boller had his problems but he looks like Tom Brady in the pocket compared to Gabbert.

FUNBUNCHER had the quote of the thread when talking about the natural supporting Gabbert:
LOL!!!
IMO you're selling a car that has all the extras except a functioning motor.
And I question seriously if Gabby is 'smarter' than Chase Daniel.

Gabbert....he's ******* terrible.

Prowler
11-29-2011, 07:46 AM
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=3774

lol, apparently everybody also hated Solder. thank god I made the right call. Just wish I didn't include "late 1st''.

Gabbert. I foresee him following the career path of JP Losman...only as a potential number 1 pick. You don't draft backup QBs in the top 10. The Staffords, Palmers, or Vicks of the world go top 5, Gabberts of the world should go late 1st-3rd round.

I mean come on, a Junior QB from a Shotgun offense with little exposure in any games that matter. Newton at least demonstrated that although he's horribly inaccurate, he can rely on his freakish athleticism to beat teams and get the job done. The only chance that Gabbert has is if he sits on the bench for 2 years. He may be allowed to play limited action in the last 4 games of his 2nd year. Toss in the possibility of not even having OTAs or Mini Camps limited this year and he's screwed.

wogitalia
11-29-2011, 07:52 AM
I normally enjoy these but this one rubs me the wrong way.

Backup QB I agree but if you consider that a smart team should be building to the future that only leaves one spot for a backup and there really aren't a lot out there, the problems come when a team has a shaky starter and thus has two developmental guys behind him. Look at the teams that have bad backup situations, KC, Oakland and Seattle come to mind, all share a similar problem, their starter isn't good himself. The teams with the better backups also tend to have the better starters because they have their future covered and are only picking a backup.

Your Tebow hate is ridiculous at this point, you are just hating for the sake of it. You are just doing the polar opposite of the media and you are both wrong. Tebow absolutely has been a major part of the Bronco's success. Whether you like it or not, their offense is protecting the football and eating up some clock, no it isn't explosive, no he hasn't done a lot of pretty things but he has taken care of the ball and given his defense every chance and the defense has responded by playing lights out. It's amazing how much better pass rushers will look when you keep your opponent in a balanced offense rather than letting them get into clock running mode. Tebow is giving his defense a chance and deserves credit for that.

Gabbert stinks but he absolutely shouldn't be starting. Still not sure why he is starting, that is just really bad management/coaching to me. He was always a project with some major changes needed, throwing him to the wolves wasn't ever going to help the issues he had.

Palmer I agree.

Suh I couldn't disagree more, what has he actually done? A couple of late hits on a QB, a stomp and one of the single worst officiating mistakes in football history are what gives him this reputation. The stomp was wrong, no place for that and he deserves a fine for it, but the rest of it is just ********. Maybe it's just that I liked football when it was a contact sport and I've seen the Goodell era and the steady decline in the sport as a spectator that he has brought upon the NFL, but Suh just hasn't done anything that warrants a season long suspension. Save that for people like Stallworth who kill people or druggies. Suh just hasn't done anything to justify anything more than a suspension.

Suh for example hasn't done anything worse than say a Julius Peppers, his late hit on Rodgers was worse than anything Suh has done outside the stomp. Jared Allen has done things as bad as anything Suh has done, on Rodgers as well for example.

Hot Seat watch is fair. Not sure what has happened with Reid this year, it's like he has just forgotten how to coach.

Nice writeup, regardless of whether I agree or not and keep em coming!

BeerBaron
11-29-2011, 07:59 AM
Suh for example hasn't done anything worse than say a Julius Peppers

No, ridiculous argument. An intentional post play stomp trumps nearly anything that has or even could happen in the course of game action outside of maybe some kind of head hunting Donovan Darius on Robert Ferguson type of play.

I've said what I think will actually happen to Suh. 2 game suspension, he appeals, plays this week in a nationally televised prime time game vs. the Saints, gets it reduced to one starting the next week. If he's smart, he won't appeal and will let the attention fade from this.

I'd personally bring the hammer down on him as an example. What he did was stupid, wrong and worst of all, completely intentional.

Additionally, my Tebow hate is completely justified. This absolutely will stop working. This has been my point all the long. Have I at any point said that it's not working right now? I don't believe I have. I've just tried to be the voice of reason reminding people that this isn't going to last forever, and will be figured out and stopped.

And it absolutely will. It's taken a few weeks longer than expected, and I may have to suffer through this year of it, but I absolutely guarantee this run of success will end, if not this year, then next. The Dolphins made the playoffs the year they shocked everyone with the wildcat, but as soon as teams got more and more tape of it and defensive minds came up with ways to stop it, it ended. This will too. It's a gimmick that has had a slight run of extra success.

BeerBaron
11-29-2011, 08:22 AM
meh. denver's time of possession with orton, vs oakland? 27.25. with tebow? 28.

both are in the negative, and both are nearly identical. someone mentioned yesterday that i was giving tebow too much credit for the team, and it's clear that i was. the only thing he does well is miss his receivers badly enough to not throw ints. the team can't convert 3rd downs until the other team goes into the prevent. the team can't produce on offense until the final drive.

That's another big part of it. I still swear that the Jets were in some kind of "run prevent" on the final drive of that one. It's like there was a bubble around him so he couldn't run too far....just far enough to...yanno....beat them.

Brodeur
11-29-2011, 10:21 AM
No, ridiculous argument. An intentional post play stomp trumps nearly anything that has or even could happen in the course of game action outside of maybe some kind of head hunting Donovan Darius on Robert Ferguson type of play.



Oh come on, there was absolutely no risk of injury with the way Suh stomped on his arm. You're going to tell me that is worse than the several ACL tears that Roy Williams caused with the horse collar tackle?

BeerBaron
11-29-2011, 10:28 AM
At least a horsecollar could be justified in that it's better to take the penalty to stop the runner than let him go for the score. It could be blatant and unessential, but I understand why someone would do it in other situations.

There is absolutely no justifying what Suh did. It was an intentional move out of frustration. He's a DIRTY player with rage and anger problems and the team ******* SUPPORTS THAT. The league should send a message to both parties there that it will not be tolerated. At all.

That's what I want. He clearly has problems. If this were a one time thing and he had otherwise been a saint, then a fine and a harsh finger wagging was all it should have been. But he's been fined repeatedly and has not adjust his over the top aggressive style of play.

There is no justifiable reason for what he did. There should be no defending this. If he were not a player for your team you would not give a **** what happened to him. He is going to hurt someone and the league needs to curtail this behavior immediately. Letting a guy rage like a psycho every time he gets frustrated is completely unacceptable. And the fact that he was initially unapologetic does not help his case.

jrdrylie
11-29-2011, 10:46 AM
Oh come on, there was absolutely no risk of injury with the way Suh stomped on his arm. You're going to tell me that is worse than the several ACL tears that Roy Williams caused with the horse collar tackle?

You are trying to say that a 307 pound guy stomping on someones arm with on doesn't risk an injury? He could have broken it. And that doesn't include shoving the guy's head into the ground 3 or 4 times. At least in cases like Roy Williams, it is in the flow of the game, trying to stop touchdowns. The results of Roy Williams' actions were worse, but the actual actions by Suh are much worse.

Prowler
11-29-2011, 10:50 AM
um, his arm wasn't even hurt. That 307lbs guy didn't jump in the air then land on his arm.

BeerBaron
11-29-2011, 10:52 AM
um, his arm wasn't even hurt. That 307lbs guy didn't jump in the air then land on his arm.

Intent. Intent. Intent. Suh stomped a guy after the play was over. That act is dirtier than nearly anything that could happen in the actual course of game action. Suh is even dirty then too.

Suh intended to harm an opponent, was penalized, ejected and will now be suspended. This was completely unacceptable and the league agreed. Not as harshly as I would have, but I'll take it.

This discussion is over as far as I'm concerned.

jrdrylie
11-29-2011, 10:53 AM
um, his arm wasn't even hurt. That 307lbs guy didn't jump in the air then land on his arm.

No it wasn't hurt because Suh was being pulled away by another Packers player so Suh couldn't really get a good hit on him. Had he not been being pulled away, he could have put the bulk of hi body weight into that stomp.

Prowler
11-29-2011, 11:00 AM
No it wasn't hurt because Suh was being pulled away by another Packers player so Suh couldn't really get a good hit on him. Had he not been being pulled away, he could have put the bulk of hi body weight into that stomp.

complete bs

Prowler
11-29-2011, 11:16 AM
He's a big dude. He plays the DT position with "bad intentions'' and doesn't always let up when he should. If people want to label him as "dirty" then fine, he's dirty. Is he a dick for his hits to Delhomme and Dalton? Yes. On Cutler? No, that was a horrible call. Is he a baby for throwing a fit and stepping on the guy? Yes.

Just please, please...lets all stop with the myth of Suh ''slamming'' his head into the turf, breaking the packer's arm, and now the awesome arm-saving teammate shielder. The replays in super slo-mo are bs. His helmet moved a whole 4 inches. No worse than normal pileups. The dude's arm is fine. And Suh was a frustrated baby who was kicked out of the game and now suspended two more games and fined again. No rapes, no DUIs, just physical football on 3 plays and one time acting out. He'll be pulled to the side by the Lions front office and he won't stomp on people or give lame conferences again.

soybean
11-29-2011, 02:21 PM
I didn't know where else to put this but, look... AD's hobby

http://i.imgur.com/vWEC0.jpg

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 02:31 PM
magic the gathering was the ****...major props to AD

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 02:32 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/kerry_byrne/11/29/tim.tebow/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t12_a2


Just to point out he is getting better at passing, and his NOT TURNING THE BALL over... Orton for example was putting up alot better numbers last year and earlier this year but was throwing INT.

He is picking up yards and what not with his legs also...


And also since he has been in we are BY FAR the best running team, and that is always a good way to win

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 02:33 PM
"In other words, Tebow is no statistical circus freak winning in spite of himself. Tebow's Broncos are winning because he consistently outperforms the opposing quarterback when you take into account all aspects of production: passing, running, sacks, total touchdowns, interceptions and fumbles. In fact, he consistently outperforms them by a wide margin.
Denver is 5-0 when Tebow produces a higher Real QB Rating than the opposing quarterback and 0-1 when the other team has the advantage. And those results are no coincidence"

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 02:36 PM
And one other thing to point out, alot of you dont watch the games... i get that, but i would say the WR's are dropping atleast 4 passes a game, that him them right in the hands...

lets say those are actually caught tebow would have been 13/19... thats 68%.... im just saying he is getting better throwing the ball

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 02:39 PM
Maybe a smidge...his ball still sucks the massive one. He's trying to throw right but somehow shanks it left.

Again...he doesn't turn the ball over but he doesn't do **** with it either. That defense is the real hero not tim tebow.

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 02:43 PM
Maybe a smidge...his ball still sucks the massive one. He's trying to throw right but somehow shanks it left.

Again...he doesn't turn the ball over but he doesn't do **** with it either. That defense is the real hero not tim tebow.

Doest do **** with it?

He has legs also, i understand its unconventional but he does stuff with his legs also....

The more and more i think its really dumb to compare scrambling QB's with conventional... They all do alot with their feet that is not going to show up when you compare the passing stats...

MetSox17
11-29-2011, 02:44 PM
Tebow doesn't throw interceptions because when his passes miss, they miss about ten yards over everyone's heads. Or OOB. They're impossible to be intercepted because they suck so much.

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 02:46 PM
Doest do **** with it?

He has legs also, i understand its unconventional but he does stuff with his legs also....

The more and more i think its really dumb to compare scrambling QB's with conventional... They all do alot with their feet that is not going to show up when you compare the passing stats...

He doesn't do a gtdamn thing with the ball until the 4th quarter. His 3rd down percentage sucks major ass.

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 02:46 PM
Tebow doesn't throw interceptions because when his passes miss, they miss about ten yards over everyone's heads. Or OOB. They're impossible to be intercepted because they suck so much.


Sure maybe a couple of the earlier ones... but if you watch the throws he is really putting it where his WR is the only one that can get it...

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 02:48 PM
He doesn't do a gtdamn thing with the ball until the 4th quarter. His 3rd down percentage sucks major ass.


I dont really care when he gets it done, the main point of that is he GETS IT DONE! he got it done against everyone other than the lions.... who at the time were considered a elite team... the jets had him contained until he BEAT THEM ... he just gets it done and the scary thing is that he is getting better and i think that is really scary to see how good we can get

MetSox17
11-29-2011, 02:49 PM
Sure maybe a couple of the earlier ones... but if you watch the throws he is really putting it where his WR is the only one that can get it...

The thing is, that's completely wrong. I don't know where this myth came from that his bad throws disappeared at the end of the game, but it just so happened that all i watched was the end of Sunday's game. He threw at least three or four balls completely off-target. And by completely i mean there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that his WR could make a play on it. He's awful.

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 02:51 PM
I dont really care when he gets it done, the main point of that is he GETS IT DONE! he got it done against everyone other than the lions.... who at the time were considered a elite team... the jets had him contained until he BEAT THEM ... he just gets it done and the scary thing is that he is getting better and i think that is really scary to see how good we can get


and let me point this out, i KNOW HOW GOOD THE DEFENSE has been and since this is a week 12 discussion...

How good of a tandem is Dumervil and Miller.... Von has been one of the best pass rushers in the NFL and is only getting better

BeerBaron
11-29-2011, 02:53 PM
I don't think you're going to convince the homer of anything.

I concede that we'll have to put up with Tebow and the Broncos the rest of this year. This success will not last, and will not lead to anything long term. This will be figured out and stopped just like the wildcat gimmick.

jrdrylie
11-29-2011, 02:53 PM
I'm shocked defenses haven't stopped Tebow yet. It isn't that hard. You single cover the receivers. Have one safety back there to protect against a guy getting open deep. Put 8 in the box and have one guy spy Tebow. This takes away the deep ball (although Tebow's horrible deep accuracy does this as well). This takes away the ability to run the ball with the backs. The spy greatly reduces Tebow's ability to run. He isn't Michael Vick. He is a mid 4.6 guy.

Doing this forces Tebow to beat you with the short and intermediate passing game. I think we have all seen Tebow miss enough wide open receivers from 10 yards away to know he can't do this. And for the love of God, your defense completely shuts down the Denver offense for three quarters. Why the hell change your defense in the fourth quarter to a weak prevent defense that basically give Tebow an easy 8 yard run on each play?

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 02:59 PM
Its like I sad...he wants to throw the ball to the right and somehow it ends up going left.

Someone mentioned teams running like a prevent defense for the run and he keeps picking at it and picking at it.

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 02:59 PM
I'm shocked defenses haven't stopped Tebow yet. It isn't that hard. You single cover the receivers. Have one safety back there to protect against a guy getting open deep. Put 8 in the box and have one guy spy Tebow. This takes away the deep ball (although Tebow's horrible deep accuracy does this as well). This takes away the ability to run the ball with the backs. The spy greatly reduces Tebow's ability to run. He isn't Michael Vick. He is a mid 4.6 guy.

Doing this forces Tebow to beat you with the short and intermediate passing game. I think we have all seen Tebow miss enough wide open receivers from 10 yards away to know he can't do this. And for the love of God, your defense completely shuts down the Denver offense for three quarters. Why the hell change your defense in the fourth quarter to a weak prevent defense that basically give Tebow an easy 8 yard run on each play?


I completly agree with the idea it SHOULD be easy to stop... but the thing is McGahee is playing out of his mind, so i think having to stop him and still keep contain from Tebow running is alot harder than it seems, as NO ONE has been able to stop the broncos from running. This then allows tebow to make a couple deadly throws in a game to keep them honest

jrdrylie
11-29-2011, 03:15 PM
I completly agree with the idea it SHOULD be easy to stop... but the thing is McGahee is playing out of his mind, so i think having to stop him and still keep contain from Tebow running is alot harder than it seems, as NO ONE has been able to stop the broncos from running. This then allows tebow to make a couple deadly throws in a game to keep them honest

No, teams do stop the offense. Look at the offensive production in the first three quarters (and early fourth quarters) in their wins.

Miami: 11 drives, 0 points, average drive 4.6 plays, 14 yards.
Oakland: 7 drives, 7 points, average drive 4.8 plays, 18 yards.
Kansas City: 8 drives, 10 points, average drive 6.1 plays, 29 yards
New York: 11 drives, 3 points, average drive 4.1 plays, 11 yards
San Diego: 8 drives, 10 points, average drive 5.5 plays, 21 yards

The offense is absolutely terrible for three quarters. And then miraculously, they do well for one drive in the fourth quarter. There are two reasons Tebow continues to win. 1). The offenses he have played are so inept that no matter how poorly the Denver offense plays, they still can't get more than a touchdown lead and 2). the defenses stop the Broncos offense for 45 minutes. Rather than stay aggressive, they back off play prevent in hopes of stopping the big play (which Denver is not capable of delivering anyway) and they let Tebow nickle and dime them.

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 03:17 PM
No, teams do stop the offense. Look at the offensive production in the first three quarters (and early fourth quarters) in their wins.

Miami: 11 drives, 0 points, average drive 4.6 plays, 14 yards.
Oakland: 7 drives, 7 points, average drive 4.8 plays, 18 yards.
Kansas City: 8 drives, 10 points, average drive 6.1 plays, 29 yards
New York: 11 drives, 3 points, average drive 4.1 plays, 11 yards
San Diego: 8 drives, 10 points, average drive 5.5 plays, 21 yards

The offense is absolutely terrible for three quarters. And then miraculously, they do well for one drive in the fourth quarter. There are two reasons Tebow continues to win. 1). The offenses he have played are so inept that no matter how poorly the Denver offense plays, they still can't get more than a touchdown lead and 2). the defenses stop the Broncos offense for 45 minutes. Rather than stay aggressive, they back off play prevent in hopes of stopping the big play (which Denver is not capable of delivering anyway) and they let Tebow nickle and dime them.

I think to say TERRIBLE is the wrong word, as we are the NUMBER 1 rushing team... i dont car how bad we are passing we are extremely dominate in the running game... and if teams are letting the broncos score more points then they are scoring they are not STOPPING the broncos

DraftSavant
11-29-2011, 03:18 PM
I think to say TERRIBLE is the wrong word, as we are the NUMBER 1 rushing team... i dont car how bad we are passing we are extremely dominate in the running game... and if teams are letting the broncos score more points then they are scoring they are not STOPPING the broncos

I'm no grammar Nazi, but ****, man...

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 03:22 PM
I'm no grammar Nazi, but ****, man...

Sorry guys i'm on my phone doing this, I just noticed how bad some of the grammar was

DraftSavant
11-29-2011, 03:28 PM
Utter is a funny word. Utter. Ut-ter. Ha.

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 03:36 PM
are you actually watching the games, glancing at the box scores or doing anything other than watching the local news for tebow highlights? the offense is, the vast majority of the time, an utter failure. mcgahee is the *only* thing making the offense go for 95% of any given game. 'tebow magic' seemingly only works after utterly failing for somewhere between 45-55 minutes.

Since ive been on these boards i still dont really see how you are a broncos fan.

But back to the point, Mcgahee is not the ONLY person responsible for the success in the run game, Tebow is contributing a good amount also, but my point is the running game is great, actually its ELITE. so to say the offence is a failure is not the right descriptive... I would also go on a limb and say the Passing game is opportunistic, not dominate but when the defense is making a mistake we take advantage, we are not forcing anything we are pounding the ball and taking shots when its there...

Tebow and co. are getting the job done, whether BeerBaron or anyone else thinks otherwise... its pretty obvious, the High School or College style offense is doing its job and the Defense is also playing lights out. My point is sure you can think its easy to stop, but no one has STOPPED( what i mean by this is we have scored more points in all but 1 team in the 6 games we have used this offense that everyone SHOULD be able to stop)


First it was wait until they play a team that has a good defense, well we have played two teams with a really good D... Now its wait until we play a team that has a Great offense...well that doesn't take in account we are playing lights on on D...

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 03:37 PM
I think to say TERRIBLE is the wrong word, as we are the NUMBER 1 rushing team... i dont car how bad we are passing we are extremely dominate in the running game... and if teams are letting the broncos score more points then they are scoring they are not STOPPING the broncos

you're no. 1 in rushing because all you do is run...20some attempts for your QB? Seriously?

jrdrylie
11-29-2011, 03:39 PM
I think to say TERRIBLE is the wrong word, as we are the NUMBER 1 rushing team... i dont car how bad we are passing we are extremely dominate in the running game... and if teams are letting the broncos score more points then they are scoring they are not STOPPING the broncos

I'm talking about the first three quarters. And for the first three quarters, terrible is the right word. They are terrible and they absolutely do not score more than their opponents. It is only when defenses stupidly move to a less aggressive prevent defense that the Broncos have any success.

soybean
11-29-2011, 03:40 PM
Since ive been on these boards i still dont really see how you are a broncos fan.

But back to the point, Mcgahee is not the ONLY person responsible for the success in the run game, Tebow is contributing a good amount also, but my point is the running game is great, actually its ELITE. so to say the offence is a failure is not the right descriptive... I would also go on a limb and say the Passing game is opportunistic, not dominate but when the defense is making a mistake we take advantage, we are not forcing anything we are pounding the ball and taking shots when its there...

Tebow and co. are getting the job done, whether BeerBaron or anyone else thinks otherwise... its pretty obvious, the High School or College style offense is doing its job and the Defense is also playing lights out. My point is sure you can think its easy to stop, but no one has STOPPED( what i mean by this is we have scored more points then 1 team in the 6 games we have used this offense that everyone SHOULD be able to stop)


First it was wait until they play a team that has a good defense, well we have played two teams with a really good D... Now its wait until we play a team that has a Great offense...well that doesn't take in account we are playing lights on on D...

You're winning but the ultimate goal for any team is a superbowl. Do you really think the offense and tebow will be able to get them through 3 rounds of playoff football?

BeerBaron
11-29-2011, 03:40 PM
9.) This foreign kicker on NFL Live is the smartest guy on ESPN

Forserious.

Raul Alleger is apparently his name.

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 03:41 PM
you're no. 1 in rushing because all you do is run...20some attempts for your QB? Seriously?


that is terrible logic, because you could say the reason why the saints are the number one team in passing is because all they do is pass....

AND WE ALL know they are extremely pass heavy, Sean Peyton is known for this

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 03:44 PM
You're winning but the ultimate goal for any team is a superbowl. Do you really think the offense and tebow will be able to get them through 3 rounds of playoff football?


Well if i knew this i would put alot of money down on this...

But know one does, you can say it wont ever work, it wont last...

Go look back at week 7 and 8, people were saying teams would stop it, it wouldnt last

well we are 6 weeks later and it is still working... and i will say its NOT pretty but not turning the ball over, playing great D, and running the ball HAS ALWAYS BEEN a recipe for winning... its just been recent that "running the ball is frowned upon"

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 03:44 PM
that is terrible logic, because you could say the reason why the saints are the number one team in passing is because all they do is pass....

AND WE ALL know they are extremely pass heavy, Sean Peyton is known for this

How is that terrible logic? Its the truth...if all you do is run or pass...chances are...you're gonna be number 1 or damn close to it.

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 03:46 PM
How is that terrible logic? Its the truth...if all you do is run or pass...chances are...you're gonna be number 1 or damn close to it.

again you are leaving out the fact that you can throw or run 60% of the time, but if you are not good at doing it, then it doesnt matter


The fact is the Saints are great at passing, and well the Broncos are pretty darn good at running

DraftSavant
11-29-2011, 03:46 PM
How is that terrible logic? Its the truth...if all you do is run or pass...chances are...you're gonna be number 1 or damn close to it.

*Jim Mora Jr. nods approvingly*

BeerBaron
11-29-2011, 03:48 PM
9.) This foreign kicker on NFL Live is the smartest guy on ESPN

Forserious.

Raul Alleger is apparently his name.

**** yeah, he even picked Robbie Gould as the best kicker right now. REPLACE TRENT DILFER WITH THIS GUY IMMEDIATELY.

He also thinks icing the kicker is stupid. Seriously, this is the most I've ever agreed with someone on NFL Live.

DraftSavant
11-29-2011, 03:49 PM
**** yeah, he even picked Robbie Gould as the best kicker right now. REPLACE TRENT DILFER WITH THIS GUY IMMEDIATELY.

Not a #surgeon. Does not compute.

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 03:54 PM
But back to other week 12 things


the chargers just a year or two ago were consistently referred to as one of if not the most talented squads, i actually respect Rivers but i think the Chargers are going down hill

BeerBaron
11-29-2011, 03:54 PM
Seriously though, **** Trent Dilfer. I have a better TD-INT ratio. I probably could have won the Superbowl at QB with that defense. Stupid full of himself douche.

MetSox17
11-29-2011, 03:56 PM
Dan Bailey is the best kicker in the NFL right now, so suck it Gold and whatever foreigner is on NFL live!

BeerBaron
11-29-2011, 03:57 PM
Dan Bailey is the best kicker in the NFL right now, so suck it Gold and whatever foreigner is on NFL live!

Bailey is playing well, but c'mon mannnn....

You're just excited to have a trustworthy kicker for the first time in a very, very long time.

DraftSavant
11-29-2011, 03:58 PM
Seriously though, **** Trent Dilfer. I have a better TD-INT ratio. I probably could have won the Superbowl at QB with that defense. Stupid full of himself douche.

Yes, **** Trent Dilfer. But you aren't #dealing like a #surgeon. He'll kill you in the cross bar challenge.

MetSox17
11-29-2011, 03:59 PM
Seriously though, **** Trent Dilfer. I have a better TD-INT ratio. I probably could have won the Superbowl at QB with that defense. Stupid full of himself douche.

The thing is, he actually used to be really, really good. When he wasn't popping up on every damn ESPN show, and when he'd stick to doing interviews on their radio shows, he was damn good, and extremely knowledgeable. They did to him what they do to everyone there at ESPN, they overexpose them and turn them into puppets for their personal agenda. I feel sorry for them, actually. Yeah it may be a cushy job, but it blows when you have the ability to provide objective and in-depth analysis, and your execs push you elsewhere.

/minirant

jrdrylie
11-29-2011, 03:59 PM
Seriously though, **** Trent Dilfer. I have a better TD-INT ratio. I probably could have won the Superbowl at QB with that defense. Stupid full of himself douche.

Trent Dilfer is a turd. He hates on Jay Cutler even when he takes his team to the NFC Championship Game but on Sunday I heard him praising Tim Tebow. That guy is a freaking moron. As for Raul Allegre, I wish I could watch him right now because you are saying he is saying is 100% right.

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 04:00 PM
Both Bailey and Gould and the foreigner can suck it...

http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n551/wrestlerj91/Sebastian-Janikowski.jpg

BeerBaron
11-29-2011, 04:01 PM
The thing is, he actually used to be really, really good. When he wasn't popping up on every damn ESPN show, and when he'd stick to doing interviews on their radio shows, he was damn good, and extremely knowledgeable. They did to him what they do to everyone there at ESPN, they overexpose them and turn them into puppets for their personal agenda. I feel sorry for them, actually. Yeah it may be a cushy job, but it blows when you have the ability to provide objective and in-depth analysis, and your execs push you elsewhere.

/minirant

Schefter seems to have avoided it, though he's not an analyst I suppose. I was worried because i liked him on NFLN, where he was a big fish in a small pond then went to ESPN with a lot more fish and pond to go around.

Brodeur
11-29-2011, 04:02 PM
Seabass > Gould, raiderz knows what's up.

BeerBaron
11-29-2011, 04:03 PM
Seabass > Gould, raiderz knows what's up.

Seabass is fat and on a bad hammie. He looked like he was constipated for the whole Bears game.

He puts the leg of any other kicker to shame obviously, but I'll stick with Gould.

DraftSavant
11-29-2011, 04:05 PM
Trent Dilfer's infatuation with Mark Sanchez came from a pre-draft story where Sanchez, Stafford, and Freeman all were together and had to go somewhere. And Sanchez drove. Somehow, that proved that other alpha males cede to him.

I wish I was making that story up, but I'm not.

MetSox17
11-29-2011, 04:05 PM
Bailey is 27/28 with game winners in the last two weeks. You can't touch that.

Brodeur
11-29-2011, 04:08 PM
Trent Dilfer's infatuation with Mark Sanchez came from a pre-draft story where Sanchez, Stafford, and Freeman all were together and had to go somewhere. And Sanchez drove. Somehow, that proved that other alpha males cede to him.

I wish I was making that story up, but I'm not.

He had to meet up with a 17 year old on the way there.

Brodeur
11-29-2011, 04:09 PM
Seabass is fat and on a bad hammie. He looked like he was constipated for the whole Bears game.

He puts the leg of any other kicker to shame obviously, but I'll stick with Gould.

Weight has nothing to do with him as a kicker, and he hasn't missed one since the injury.

jrdrylie
11-29-2011, 04:10 PM
Seabass > Gould, raiderz knows what's up.

Robbie Gould is the 3rd most accurate kicker of all time. Seabass has never even been the 3rd most accurate kicker in an NFL season. The thing that used to make Janikowski better was he had a huge leg. But Gould is 8-9 from 50 or more yards over the last two years so his leg is plenty strong enough. Plus he does all of this in a stadium that is harder to kick in. I'll take Gould over Janikowski.

DraftSavant
11-29-2011, 04:11 PM
For ****'s sake, are you really arguing about kickers?

jrdrylie
11-29-2011, 04:12 PM
For ****'s sake, are you really arguing about kickers?

Hell yeah we are because we are all tired of all the Tebow is a winner, Packers are the best team ever, and Suh is dirty talk so there is nothing else to talk about.

Brodeur
11-29-2011, 04:13 PM
Robbie Gould is the 3rd most accurate kicker of all time. Seabass has never even been the 3rd most accurate kicker in an NFL season. The thing that used to make Janikowski better was he had a huge leg. But Gould is 8-9 from 50 or more yards over the last two years so his leg is plenty strong enough. Plus he does all of this in a stadium that is harder to kick in. I'll take Gould over Janikowski.

Yes but Seabass is horrifically ugly, a lousy human being, a drunk, and had GHB in college. In other words, he wins by being awesome.

MetSox17
11-29-2011, 04:15 PM
Seabass is the John Daly of football.

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 04:18 PM
Jano is 22/24 and has 6 50+ this season alone with a 63 yarder.


Yes but Seabass is horrifically ugly, a lousy human being, a drunk, and had GHB in college. In other words, he wins by being awesome.

Plus all this...except the ugly part...I think he's quite striking

jrdrylie
11-29-2011, 04:21 PM
Yes but Seabass is horrifically ugly, a lousy human being, a drunk, and had GHB in college. In other words, he wins by being awesome.

My sister went to college with him and said he was the dumbest person she ever met. One of the reasons he decided to go pro was because his girlfriend, who pretty much did all his work for him, graduated so there was no way in hell he would be academically eligible for his senior year.

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 04:21 PM
My sister went to college with him and said he was the dumbest person she ever met. One of the reasons he decided to go pro was because his girlfriend, who pretty much did all his work for him, graduated so there was no way in hell he would be academically eligible for his senior year.

That's so ******* awesome hahahaha

Flyboy
11-29-2011, 04:30 PM
My sister went to college with him and said he was the dumbest person she ever met. One of the reasons he decided to go pro was because his girlfriend, who pretty much did all his work for him, graduated so there was no way in hell he would be academically eligible for his senior year.

So... he's living the American dream?

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 08:06 PM
Just a quick read for everyone... and what can i say more fuel for the fire

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_3171_A_tale_of_six_quarterbacks.html

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 08:09 PM
It just blows my mind that people think "he cant pass" when it really comes down to he doesnt get the chance... he throws like 10 times a game

Saints-Tigers
11-29-2011, 08:18 PM
He would throw more than 10 times a game if he didn't suck at it. You think the Broncos like to not score a lot of points?

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 08:18 PM
It just blows my mind that people think "he cant pass" when it really comes down to he doesnt get the chance... he throws like 10 times a game

There's a reason for that.

EDIT: Don't click the link...its the same QB A vs QB B type BS abbadon had a few weeks ago about alex smith.

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 08:23 PM
There's a reason for that.

EDIT: Don't click the link...its the same QB A vs QB B type BS abbadon had a few weeks ago about alex smith.

But what i want to point out is he has an arm, lets throw his rushing stats in college out... he was lighting it up against the SEC... sure his throwing motion is pretty but he has an arm and knows how to put the ball where he wants it..


another quote to point out by Jake Plummer

"I think all in all what itís about in the NFL is winning. Itís not about winning for 10 years from now. It is not about building a dynasty or building a Super Bowl contender year in and year out. Itís about winning this next week. Thatís all the fans should worry about really and I think they should be happy to see they are doing whatever they can there and they got a kid that really if the ball is in his hands and there is a decisive moment in a game he is going to make plays. Heís proven that already. He might not throw a 30-yard seam route for a touchdown, but he might run it 30 yards and up the seam and dodge a bunch of people. Either way it is exciting. You are excited about it. You are wondering what is going to happen and thatís gotta be fun for the fans there I would hope."

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 08:25 PM
But what i want to point out is he has an arm, lets throw his rushing stats in college out... he was lighting it up against the SEC... sure his throwing motion is pretty but he has an arm and knows how to put the ball where he wants it..

So I guess he just doesn't want to put it in his receivers hands hu?

niel89
11-29-2011, 08:26 PM
It just blows my mind that people think "he cant pass" when it really comes down to he doesnt get the chance... he throws like 10 times a game

If Tebow passed the ball 40 times in a game it would be incredibly ugly. His completion % would be awful and he would continue to consistently miss open receivers. He only passes 10 times a game because the less he throws is actually better for the team. He has yet to even break 200 yards passing this year. He threw for 205 against SD and 308 against Houston last year, but the Houston game consisted of about 85% screen passes.

People don't think that he can't pass because he only get 10 tries. He only gets 10 attempts because he can't pass.

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 08:26 PM
So I guess he just doesn't want to put it in his receivers hands hu?

watch a broncos game... he will even tell you in his interviews he doesnt force throws... and at least 4 times a game the ball will hit Royal or DT right in the hands and they drop it... he can put the ball in the hands all day when Decker is the only one catching it, of coarse his stats are not gonna be eye popping

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 08:28 PM
watch a broncos game... he will even tell you in his interviews he doesnt force throws... and at least 4 times a game the ball will hit Royal or DT right in the hands and they drop it... he can put the ball in the hands all day when Decker is the only one catching it, of coarse his stats are not gonna be eye popping

*sigh*...guess I'm done arguing...can't speak to the deaf.

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 08:33 PM
If Tebow passed the ball 40 times in a game it would be incredibly ugly. His completion % would be awful and he would continue to consistently miss open receivers. He only passes 10 times a game because the less he throws is actually better for the team. He has yet to even break 200 yards passing this year. He threw for 205 against SD and 308 against Houston last year, but the Houston game consisted of about 85% screen passes.

People don't think that he can't pass because he only get 10 tries. He only gets 10 attempts because he can't pass.

Hey i understand what you are saying, but you just pointed it out he had big passing games last year... this year they are not letting him throw the ball, and you know what its still working so why change it (you all will probably say it wont continue to work, which was said after the 1st game he started..the thing is, it is working and until it doesn't work and the broncos are continuously losing then i think the Broncos offence can work)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAATerH70Dg

sure seems like ALOT of screens in this video.... in all actuality he is putting the ball in tight places

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 08:34 PM
*sigh*...guess I'm done arguing...can't speak to the deaf.

Well first you try and tell me that the broncos are number one because they run alot, forget to mention they are actually good at it

You fail to acknowledge the broncos WR's are dropping numerous passes each week, only helping the argument that he cant throw

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 08:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnEuisuFFM8

another video for those who dont watch him play

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 08:40 PM
Well first you try and tell me that the broncos are number one because they run alot, forget to mention they are actually good at it

You fail to acknowledge the broncos WR's are dropping numerous passes each week, only helping the argument that he cant throw

Oakland-27th ranked rush D
Chiefs-26th rush D
Jets 16th Rush D
San DIego 25th ranked rush D

Only defense that was average against the run was the Jets. Not very hard to run on 3 of the bottom 7 teams. In run defense.

Ok say the receivers have dropped some balls...what about when Tebow overthrows them 5-10 yards every other throw?

whatadai
11-29-2011, 08:46 PM
Ok say the receivers have dropped some balls...what about when Tebow overthrows them 5-10 yards every other throw?

that's what he means by not forcing the ball...tebow was obviously throwing the ball away those times. /sarcasm

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 08:47 PM
Oakland-27th ranked rush D
Chiefs-26th rush D
Jets 16th Rush D
San DIego 25th ranked rush D

Only defense that was average against the run was the Jets. Not very hard to run on 3 of the bottom 7 teams. In run defense.

Ok say the receivers have dropped some balls...what about when Tebow overthrows them 5-10 yards every other throw?

are these rankings after the broncos ran all over these teams?

show me what they were ranked prior to the broncos playing them

HE MIGHT HAVE 1 pass that is a WTF ball... the receivers are dropping about 4 a game... he would have been 13/18 this past game that is a 72.2% passing day... doesnt seem too bad

wogitalia
11-29-2011, 08:47 PM
I'm shocked defenses haven't stopped Tebow yet. It isn't that hard. You single cover the receivers. Have one safety back there to protect against a guy getting open deep. Put 8 in the box and have one guy spy Tebow. This takes away the deep ball (although Tebow's horrible deep accuracy does this as well). This takes away the ability to run the ball with the backs. The spy greatly reduces Tebow's ability to run. He isn't Michael Vick. He is a mid 4.6 guy.

The thing is though, you are only bringing 8 in the box and then you are effectively taking one of them back out of it by having him spy Tebow, so it's basically just a conventional defense against a conventional offense.

I think that is the big reason why this offense is working, people say it's a gimmick but it really isn't gimmicky, it's basic run plays, McGahee's big run to setup the game winner was just a basic draw down the middle, which with good blocking and one broken tackle is a big gainer.

Tebow as a runner is someone that needs to be accounted for. If the teams put 8 in the box it isn't a conventional 8 in the box, when people put 8 in the box against the Vikings we are down an offensive player and it is a noticeable difference. Against the Bronco's that 8th man in the box really just accounts for Tebow being an extra man on offense and once that is accounted for you are back to a normal defense against a normal offense.

To really stop the run game you need to put 9 in the box and then you are leaving your CBs on an island, which is helping keep the turnovers down. Tebow misses by a lot but the safeties are preoccupied with the run and not in position to take advantage of overthrows and Tebow's throwing is very hit and miss, he basically seems to even throw a good ball or a horrific ball, there aren't a lot of in between throws that give a CB a great chance at the ball.

Now I say it's not a gimmick and it isn't but is is a limited offense. It relies on them keeping the game close and it isn't explosive(it could be if Tebow can get better passing) and as such when they fall behind it just kind of spitballs out of control(see the Lions game). When they can stay close they are going to have a chance to grind teams down and make subtle changes that allow for game winning drives.

As long as they keep the turnovers down and the defense can keep it up there is no reason they can't keep winning. It's actually a well run offense built on pretty standard ideas. Like with any offense, execution and situations are the key, keep the situation under control and execute and they will stay in games. On top of that, if they ever get on top of someone its going to be hard to come back against them with their pass rush and effective running game.

None of this changes that Tebow is very ordinary throwing the ball, that the Broncos defense has totally capitalised on their better situation and is crushing it, or that some defenses are going to match up very well against the Bronco's and probably make them look awful at times and that it is a one dimensional offense with little answer for that situation but as long as they don't hit those teams.

Speaking of those teams, I expect the Vikings defense to put an ass whooping on their offense. Not saying we will win because I expect their defense to punish our offense as well, but we match up really well with what the Broncos are doing on offense, we have a MLB who can play downhill, our OLB are great and very solid and will do their job, our corners are probably better in run support than they are in coverage, our DL is very disruptive and our safeties couldn't cover a tackling dummy so they may as well live in the box anyway(not that they can tackle a tackling dummy either but you know they might get in the way). Honestly, if Percy Harvin can get us a ST TD I think we can win this one like 10-9 or something!

Denver Bronco56
11-29-2011, 08:48 PM
and another point to add is you along with the entire country knows the broncos are going to run....

AND TEAMS STILL CANT STOP THEM... i dont care if you are the worst run d in the NFL, or worst pass d if you know whats coming it is alot easier to stop.

In this case the broncos are just better then anyone they have played in terms of Runing the ball be it with Tebow or McGahee

Raiderz4Life
11-29-2011, 08:52 PM
I give up...

DraftSavant
11-29-2011, 10:18 PM
The thing is though, you are only bringing 8 in the box and then you are effectively taking one of them back out of it by having him spy Tebow, so it's basically just a conventional defense against a conventional offense.

I think that is the big reason why this offense is working, people say it's a gimmick but it really isn't gimmicky, it's basic run plays, McGahee's big run to setup the game winner was just a basic draw down the middle, which with good blocking and one broken tackle is a big gainer.

Tebow as a runner is someone that needs to be accounted for. If the teams put 8 in the box it isn't a conventional 8 in the box, when people put 8 in the box against the Vikings we are down an offensive player and it is a noticeable difference. Against the Bronco's that 8th man in the box really just accounts for Tebow being an extra man on offense and once that is accounted for you are back to a normal defense against a normal offense.

To really stop the run game you need to put 9 in the box and then you are leaving your CBs on an island, which is helping keep the turnovers down. Tebow misses by a lot but the safeties are preoccupied with the run and not in position to take advantage of overthrows and Tebow's throwing is very hit and miss, he basically seems to even throw a good ball or a horrific ball, there aren't a lot of in between throws that give a CB a great chance at the ball.

Now I say it's not a gimmick and it isn't but is is a limited offense. It relies on them keeping the game close and it isn't explosive(it could be if Tebow can get better passing) and as such when they fall behind it just kind of spitballs out of control(see the Lions game). When they can stay close they are going to have a chance to grind teams down and make subtle changes that allow for game winning drives.

As long as they keep the turnovers down and the defense can keep it up there is no reason they can't keep winning. It's actually a well run offense built on pretty standard ideas. Like with any offense, execution and situations are the key, keep the situation under control and execute and they will stay in games. On top of that, if they ever get on top of someone its going to be hard to come back against them with their pass rush and effective running game.

None of this changes that Tebow is very ordinary throwing the ball, that the Broncos defense has totally capitalised on their better situation and is crushing it, or that some defenses are going to match up very well against the Bronco's and probably make them look awful at times and that it is a one dimensional offense with little answer for that situation but as long as they don't hit those teams.

Speaking of those teams, I expect the Vikings defense to put an ass whooping on their offense. Not saying we will win because I expect their defense to punish our offense as well, but we match up really well with what the Broncos are doing on offense, we have a MLB who can play downhill, our OLB are great and very solid and will do their job, our corners are probably better in run support than they are in coverage, our DL is very disruptive and our safeties couldn't cover a tackling dummy so they may as well live in the box anyway(not that they can tackle a tackling dummy either but you know they might get in the way). Honestly, if Percy Harvin can get us a ST TD I think we can win this one like 10-9 or something!

Exactly. It's like saying that the naked bootleg that Denver used to be famous for with Shanny is a "gimmick" play. Both plays have the same intended result - the threat of the QB run essentially "blocks" a defender.

ShutDwn
11-29-2011, 10:38 PM
HE MIGHT HAVE 1 pass that is a WTF ball... the receivers are dropping about 4 a game... he would have been 13/18 this past game that is a 72.2% passing day... doesnt seem too bad

This is gold.

Tim Tebow hasn't even thrown over 50% this year and you're trying to claim it's his receiver's fault? His career high is 55%. Starting with receivers like Royal and Decker is pretty good and he still can't complete half his passes.

I'm not sure which is worse between reading people argue for Tebow or watching his throwing motion.

BaLLiN
11-29-2011, 11:04 PM
This is gold.

Tim Tebow hasn't even thrown over 50% this year and you're trying to claim it's his receiver's fault? His career high is 55%. Starting with receivers like Royal and Decker is pretty good and he still can't complete half his passes.

I'm not sure which is worse between reading people argue for Tebow or watching his throwing motion.

He is right, the receivers are dropping balls. It doesn't mean the ball is being thrown well, or that it is a high percentage pass, but they are dropping them. It seems like with every week that Denver's OC has, he does tinker with the plays and Tebow is getting more comfortable.

I do think that the lefty throw is something to adjust to, being a WR myself, I've had to deal with it. The way that you turn your body and catch the ball at the point is second nature for wr's from right handed qb's, and when you see the ball in a different motion it becomes mental and (maybe a little) technically different while catching the ball. I personally pay attention to the point, so when its wobbling the other way (tebow does not throw a good spiral most of the time either) it does make me have to overcompensate to make sure I catch it.

Now I am not an NFL WR, but that is my perspective.

BaLLiN
11-29-2011, 11:16 PM
i mean, tebow got it there and stuff...

i know that's not the point you're making, but it's the point that's being 'made' and it's simply a joke. tebow hasn't had to deal with any more or any worse drops than any other nfl qb. just ask colt mccoy.

thats what I was trying to say, just in a different way. He has some good passes that a lot of people are ooh-ing and ahh-ing about, but his accuracy (and i feel his left hand throwing) is making it hard on his receivers and more often than not making them have to make difficult catches.

Eddie Royal's drop was just bad though...

wogitalia
11-29-2011, 11:52 PM
Every QB has to deal with drops, hell McNabb probably would have looked like a god for us if he wasn't throwing to Berrian constantly.

soybean
11-30-2011, 12:58 AM
Every QB has to deal with drops, hell McNabb probably would have looked like a god for us if he wasn't throwing to Berrian constantly.

hyperbole but still that's not even remotely true.

wogitalia
11-30-2011, 03:59 AM
Very much hyperbole :) That said he was getting like 2 drops or just complete non-efforts a game from Berrian ;)

_YL_
11-30-2011, 09:21 AM
I don't think you can judge Palmer on the Bears game seeing how he was throwing to the 3rd and 4th and 5th WR's on this team. He was without Moore N Ford. The two best WR's on the team and the two WR's he has the most trust in. But okay.

Iamcanadian
11-30-2011, 12:58 PM
1.) Backup QBs are Important
I can't stress this one enough. For starters, I'll direct your attention back to something I wrote prior to the season here: http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48309

(Certain sections highlighted for emphasis)

Gee, such brilliance, backup QB's are important, now why didn't I think about that, such an intelligent statement.[/QUOTE]

The league currently features two situations in which likely playoff teams are currently sporting their backup and even their 3rd string QB. Both the Bears and the Texans, owing mostly to easy schedules the rest of the way and solid-to-great supporting casts can still make the playoffs with backups at QB.

The Texans may make it in their weak division, the Bears will fail.

Like I said before the season, I think teams need to have a backup that they feel can go at least .500 in any starts he may have to make. One or two losses can completely change the season. For instance, last year, the Bears went 11-5 and were the #2 seed in the NFC earning a bye week. The Giants and Bucs were left out of the playoffs completely at 10-6...just a ONE GAME DIFFERENCE between the #2 seed and sitting at home in January.

So, with that all said, why don't teams have more respect for the backup QB position?

GM's aren't stupid like you want to think, they know full well that a backup QB is very important but they are limited by a thing called the salary cap in providing their team with a solid one, especially if they already have a franchise QB on their roster who commands huge $$$'S. There is just so many $$$$'s you can tie up in one position.
Take a team like Indy who pays Peyton a ton of money to be their starter, there is absolutely no way they can afford a decent backup unless they want to start cutting starters at other positions to pay for one. No GM in his right mind is going to go that route, they are forced to gamble that their starting QB stays healthy.

Ideally, this is a guy who will never see the field. But rarely is that the case unless you've got a guy named Favre or Manning. As I've pointed out several times, it's unrealistic to expect every backup QB to be the next Kurt Warner, or even Matt Cassel, but I don't think it's unrealistic to have a guy who can keep your team afloat.

[QUOTE]Sorry but you are dead wrong here, it is extremely difficult for many teams to find a solid starter what makes you think it is easy to find a solid backup who will play for peanuts because that is all teams with franchise QB's can afford to pay for their backups. Kurt Warner and Cassell were making nothing when they were discovered to have real talent, nobody, not even their HC's thought they would perform that well, it was just shear luck that they turned out to be real starters in waiting, you might as well ask teams to find their starting HoF QB's with a six round pick like NE did, it just came down to luck, not some great plan.

So why do teams seem to constantly ignore the position before the season? In some cases, I understand why team went out to find a veteran backup, such as the Bears and Texans. Both had rookie 3rd stringers who likely weren't up to the task of becoming the new backup.

Teams save up a certain amount of cap space for when they are desperate, not only for a QB but for any position that suddenly becomes a priority due to injury. They never know in advance which position it may turnout to be but they have enough in reserve for only one disaster to the roster so they aren't likely to spend it in the preseason, they just wait for the emergency to occur and then go out and do the best they can.
Why would they spend the money on a backup QB when the injured player may well turnout to play another position.

But for the Raiders, what is the excuse? They had all preseason to see Kyle Boller play and decided that he must have been good enough to be the backup QB then. Jason Campbell gets hurt, and then the team panics throwing quality draft picks out for a veteran. Yes, Kyle Boller sucks, but why didn't the team have a better backup plan before the season even started?

You call trading for Palmer a panic, it was more like a steal on their part. Teams basically get to keep a decent backup for one year, because when team discover you have a decent backup, the trade offers come in for him to be a starter with this year being an aberration because of the lockout. Green Bay will be forced to trade White next year and there goes your decent backup for them.

Similar arguments could be made for the Colts and Chiefs. Even someone as durable as Peyton Manning was bound to miss time eventually. But the team stuck with the completely unproven Curtis Painter as the backup...up until Peyton actually began to miss time. Then they suddenly panicked and overpaid Kerry Collins to bring him out of retirement for a game. Similarly, the Chiefs, with playoff aspirations, had no quarrel going with Tyler Palko as Matt Cassel's backup, but as soon as he struggled in his first start, they panicked and brought in Kyle Orton who will likely be starting sooner rather than later with no experience in the system. ("Knows the system" is typically overrated in my opinion and Todd Collins is a great example of that, but signing a guy to start for your team in the middle of season is one case where that guy better be familiar with the system.)

Your all over the place forgetting that teams really have to use their one time emergency fund to find a replacement if their nobody backup cannot handle the pressure right away. I repeat, they cannot spend the money for a backup before the season because what if the QB stays healthy and the RB gets hurt or the LT etc. etc., then they are left with nothing.
You simply have no clue to how the finances of a team work in the cap era. Teams are locked into their budgets starting with what the QB makes. If he's a Peyton Manning, they have great difficulty coming up with the money to retain their current roster never mind finding the money for an expensive backup. They have a one time emergency fund which they used on Collins who was probably all they could afford and since the injury occurred so early, they realized the reality of their situation and decided to write off the season for a shot at Luck.

In all of these cases, I feel that the team could have done a better job filling the backup QB position. In my opinion, teams should look at the backup QB as a guy who is likely to see action. If they don't feel he can keep them afloat if the starter goes down, they should find someone else who they think can.

Now, you could very well be sitting there saying "BeerBaron, there aren't even enough quality QBs to fill 32 starter slots, much less backups!" And you may be correct. But here is a list of current backup QBs I like and who I would have offered mid-round picks to acquire if necessary:

- Billy Volek (was a free agent prior to this season)
- Seneca Wallace (would have offered a 5th, up to a 3rd if really desperate)
- Vince Young (was a free agent prior to this season)
- Matt Moore (was a free agent prior to this season)
- Bruce Gradkowski (was a free agent prior to this season)

And that's just ones I can think of offhand. And most, I could have signed as free agents. I'd trust any one of those guys to keep a team afloat in 1-4 starts if pressed into duty. Or at least I'd trust them more than Curtis Painter, Kyle Boller, Tyler Palko......

You trust them, now that carries a lot of weight for GM's, Cleveland cannot win with McCoy but I haven't see them turn to Wallace as their salvation???
Matt Moore was a total flop last year as Carolina's starter but you just knew he could get the job done???
Bruce Gradkowski has had many shots at winning a starting QB position but was totally rejected.
Finally VY who I really like but face it he was going to cost millions to get which few teams could afford and he carried a lot of baggage with him, which most teams wanted nothing to do with.
Finally there is your own admission that perhaps these guys could keep a team afloat for 1 to 4 games but Indy needed a guy for 16 games, Oakland needed a guy for about 8 games, KC needed a guy for 6 games so none of them were going to save these franchises from their fate.

Finally, you may argue expense. None of those guys are on particularly large salaries. I'd gladly pay an extra million if it meant staying alive while your starting QB is out.

Unfortunately, paying another million in the cap era usually means you have to cut another starter. There is a reason teams carry 5-7 rookies in the cap era, they are cheap and can make your cap work even if it means they have to start out of desperation. There is simply no other way to do it.

2.) What to make of the Texans
It just keeps getting worse while the team manages to keep on winning. Given the supporting cast, it's likely that any available QB could probably pilot the Texans to the playoffs still. The defense is smothering, Foster and the o-line are humming, and all you need to do is hock up a pass towards Andre every once in a while to keep the defense honest.

But any team who could draw the Texans in the first round of the playoffs would have to be salivating. Kellen Clemons or TJ Yates? In the playoffs? The Texans are doomed.

Looking at the veteran ranks doesn't turn up much. A case could be made for the Texans to try picking at the carcasses of Daunte Culpepper or Jeff Garcia. Hell, Jake Plummer isn't doing anything nowadays. Give him a call. I think he played in Kubiak's offense. There's also Favre which....well, suffice it to say we should all pray that doesn't happen.

Your absolutely right, The Texans are fine till the playoffs where they will be a one and done team. Their division is very weak so they are almost guaranteed a berth in the playoffs unless Tennessee smells the burning carcass and makes a late run.

PFT suggested something today which could be up the Texans' alley. If Kyle Orton could get his release in Denver by simply asking, Donovan McNabb should try the same thing. As bad as he's been these last two years, he's still probably a better option than rookie Yates or street FA Clemons.

This team should still make the playoffs, but anything beyond a one-and-done would come as an absolute shock to me.

3.) QBs I don't like update 3.0
-Tebow - Well, this is just getting sad. Granted, I had no real faith in the Chargers but that's a whole 'nother story. Playing games this close is akin to playing with fire and eventually, they're going to get burned.

I also like how the Tebow story has completely overshadowed Von Miller's impact on the team. He's playing out of his mind right now and, like I said last week, is a bigger reason for the team's success than Tebow. I didn't see Tebow making the tackle for a loss to knock the Chargers into worse FG range for their OT miss. I haven't seen Tebow rack up 4 sacks in their last 3 games, all wins.

But, no one cares about that. Even Football Night in America, when talking about the highlights of the game, started off saying "Tim Tebow beats the Chargers." Not the Broncos. Tim Tebow, alone and by himself, beat the San Diego Chargers. Apparently.

Here, I couldn't agree with you more, the Tebow story is hiding the true heroes of this piece. Miller and Denver's defense is keeping the game close enough for Tebow to be the hype hero. Without Miller and Denver's defense, people would be laughing at Tebow.

-Carson Palmer - I've gotten first hand looks at Palmer for the past several weeks now, and my opinion stays the same. He's making a few plays, but he was so close to pissing that Bears game away on several occasions. The Bears dropped several would-be interceptions and if not for throwing to the FB, who the Bears apparently could not or would not cover, Palmer's stay line would be even more mediocre. The Raiders got away with this one, but I can't see Palmer taking this team anywhere beyond a one-and-done int he playoffs.

I have a wait and see on this one. Palmer is still very rusty and could take a dramatic step in the coming weeks to show his return to 'franchise status'.
The Bears should have taken advantage when they had the opportunity.

-Blaine Gabbert - He's ******* terrible. Absolutely terrible. I'll admit to being a QB prospect elitist, but my dislike of Gabbert last year was shared by surprisingly many and for good reason. We're being proven right in this one. The guy has just awful accuracy and his pocket presence is one of the worst I've ever, ever seen. As soon as an 11th defender sets foot on the field, he panics. Bust bust bust. What's that you say, give him more time? He's just a rookie? No. Bust. The team may be required by draft law to give him more than one year, but I'm not. Bust.

Yes, I know, QB's should just be great in their rookie years, Peyton shouldn't have thrown a record 26 interceptions, Eli shouldn't have waited 4 years to break out and they were experienced senior QB's when they entered the NFL.
Gee, Smith took something like 8 years to mature at the QB position.
When are fans going to realize that immediate success isn't always going to happen for a raw young QB. Of course Gabbert came on board with that immensely successful franchise Jacksonville, oh wait, they have stunk since 2008, he could count on their talent to make the transition easy or not.
Give the guy a break and come back in 3 years and we'll know what he likely is but to make such a statement today is rather absurd.

4.) Bears Corner
It would have been nice to come away with that ugly win yesterday, but it's not the end of the world.

Caleb Hanie struggled badly early on, but by the 2nd half, played better than the stats would otherwise indicate. Mike Martz's playcalling in the first half didn't help matters. He got away from the rollouts and quicker passes that were working with Cutler, but got back to using them in the 2nd half where Hanie improved. Particularly egregious playcalling was evident on that late first half interception that was nearly returned for a TD. While Hanie should have known better than to throw it and deserves some blame, there was no reason to do anything but be conservative there. That play was basically a 6 point swing...it took a likely FG off the board for the Bears while handing a FG (and nearly a TD) to the Raiders.

The defense played lights out other than a couple of big plays by Marcel Reece of all people. They clamped down in the redzone despite being dealt a bad hand repeatedly by the offense struggling and turning the ball over.

This game could have been a lot worse than the final score turned out to be, and scarily, the Bears were in it right to the end.

Not a pretty game at all, and there is no such thing as a good loss, but hopefully we learned from it and can improve with a weak schedule coming up.

Face it, the Bears are done, just too many games to go to get by with a third string talent at QB. It is only going to get worse. Where is their emergency fund??? Sorry, couldn't resist.

5.) Hot Seat Watch
- Norv Turner - He's done. I don't even know if he lasts the year at this point. He should make for a hell of an offensive coordinator free agent though.

He and Smith should have been gone years ago.

- Andy Reid - I still maintain that he'll resign. If he doesn't, the Eagles should fire him. He's had a good run, but sometimes you have to take a step back before you can take two forward. The team may need to be blown up as well. It's sad because talent is there, but it's a dysfunctional mess.Take your chances with someone else, because Andy Reid with this group isn't going to win you a Superbowl.

I think he should get at least 1 more year. The other side of the mountain isn't always greener and often turns into a disaster. If he cannot right the ship by next season, then by all means the risk must be taken and he should go.

- Bill Polian - I keep pleading with Indy to get rid of this clown. Rebuild with Luck! No one, not one GM or head coach in this league should ever be allowed to keep his job after a potentially winless season. This goes beyond Peyton's injury to a poorly built team. His system is flawed and does not build anything but regular season champions at best.

You can plead all you want but this guy is a tremendous talent evaluator and realized his position when Peyton went down and decided to win the Luck sweepstakes. Sure, he probably could have won 3 or 4 games with a replacement QB but what good was that going to accomplish. Even you admit that backup QB's are only good for 1-4 games.
The failure to wim more that 1 SB I put on Manning's shoulders, his playoff record is misserable.

6.) End Suh's Season
I think it's the only message the league can send that he may actually receive. The fines he's been getting are nothing more than pocket change to the former #2 overall pick pre-rookie cap.

A game or two suspension might wake him up a little, but send the absolute strongest message possible and end his season. I guarantee he changes starting next year after that.

Additionally, no matter how long he's suspended, the Lions should still sit him during any appeal. If he appeals and is allowed to play this week, it's a travesty. To quote Mike Periera, "he's not dirty, he's filthy."

If the league wants it's efforts to protect the players to be taken seriously, they need to be protected from themselves. Suspending Suh for the year would send a message to absolutely everyone that this behavior will not be tolerated.

The league won't. But they should. If I were the commish (and everyone should be thankful that I am not,) the banhammer would be out in full force on this one.

That's all I've got for this week. There may be some other stuff but this is what I came up with offhand. If you want to ask me something else, feel free to do so in the thread. If I think of anything or something crazy happens in tonight's game, I'll update this later.

Again, you show your complete ignorance of how the NFL and the law works. Even a 2 game suspension(which I happen to think he deserves) will be appealed, if the league tried to suspend him for the year, the case would end up in the courts where the team and Suh would sue the NFL for hundreds of millions of dollars since there is absolutely no precedence for such a suspension anywhere on the NFL books. Without the ability to prove they have treated like cases in a similar fashion, the NFL would be libel for an immense settlement. You really expect the NFL to maker themselves libel for that kind of money, not going to happen. Stick to your day job because the NFL won't be coming to knock on your door anytime soon.

Raiderz4Life
11-30-2011, 01:12 PM
LOL...the Raiders got a steal...that's funny.

We have yet to break even on that trade.

Only you would try and defend Polian's ineptitude. "OMGZ...He saw Peyton get hurt so he said "**** it I want Luck...Lets not win a single game" GENIUS!!

Rosebud
11-30-2011, 03:33 PM
That was just terrible.

DraftSavant
11-30-2011, 04:59 PM
I ******* hate people using Peyton Manning's rookie year to justify other bad rookie quarterbacks. Dude threw for 21 touchdowns and over 4000 ******* yards. He already had command of the offense by year's end. There was never any doubt, by any person, that Peyton was the real deal.

I'm sorry, but I can look at Jimmy Clausen, or Jamarcus Russell, or Blaine Gabbert and know that he's ******* terrible and not likely to improve much. It's the reason why, after their rookie seasons, Stafford still had so many supporters and Sanchez had so many detractors. Stop focusing on the narrative and focus on what's going on on the field. The eye test doesn't lie, so isolate the quarterback.

You know franchise QB potential when you see it - even through a player's rookie struggles. Gabbert displays the exact same faults that have absolutely destroyed many a talented + hard working QB's careers: David Carr, Joey Harrington, Rob Johnson. The most recent QB iteration who shares his issues is Kevin Kolb.

Gabbert. Is. Scared. His eye level is constantly at the rush instead of downfield. He takes more sacks per pass attempts than any player in the NFL right now. These types of quarterbacks make things infinitely harder for all of the other players on offense - especially the offensive line. You simply cannot build around that.

fenikz
11-30-2011, 05:05 PM
ya its Kolb's fault he gets sacked nonstop :/

Skelton didn't get sacked 12 times in those 4 games or anything

DraftSavant
11-30-2011, 05:08 PM
ya its Kolb's fault he gets sacked nonstop :/

Arizona has by far the worst starting tackle duo in the league, but dropping his eyes to look at the rush was a major problem before he even got to Arizona. Now, it's just exacerbated.

And I split that into two separate paragraphs. Kolb was only one sentence of that discussion. The afterpart (most sacked QB per pass attempts) was about Gabbert.

soybean
11-30-2011, 06:05 PM
The whole "let's wait a few years before we judge him" has to be the most annoying cliche on this board.

yes, like I really want to wait three years to talk about a big name player.

BeerBaron
11-30-2011, 06:11 PM
The whole "let's wait a few years before we judge him" has to be the most annoying cliche on this board.

yes, like I really want to wait three years to talk about a big name player.

So ignore it. Don't follow that "rule."

Gabbert is ******* terrible. Watching him play confirms this. Normally, this is where I'd insert a semi-serious joke about how "the Chargers suck, so watch Gabbert play well against them this week."

But I can't even joke about that because he won't. A random collection of guys from this board could comprise the opposing defense and Gabbert would still play scared and terrible.

These aren't rookie jitters or struggles of an inexperienced QB. Christian Ponder has those. But he has flashes of looking like he has some semblance of what he's doing on the field.

Gabbert is Jimmy Clausen or Brady Quinn lost out there.

soybean
11-30-2011, 06:26 PM
So ignore it. Don't follow that "rule."

Gabbert is ******* terrible. Watching him play confirms this. Normally, this is where I'd insert a semi-serious joke about how "the Chargers suck, so watch Gabbert play well against them this week."

But I can't even joke about that because he won't. A random collection of guys from this board could comprise the opposing defense and Gabbert would still play scared and terrible.

These aren't rookie jitters or struggles of an inexperienced QB. Christian Ponder has those. But he has flashes of looking like he has some semblance of what he's doing on the field.

Gabbert is Jimmy Clausen or Brady Quinn lost out there.

that's why in turn i think ponder is going to be amazing and gabbert is terrible already. I don't want to wait to see Gabbert to flame out (like Iamcanadian has suggested) just so someone or I can say "I told you so."

Conversely, I'd welcome a "I told you so" if Gabbert turns out to be awesome.

Raiderz4Life
11-30-2011, 06:50 PM
So ignore it. Don't follow that "rule."

Gabbert is ******* terrible. Watching him play confirms this. Normally, this is where I'd insert a semi-serious joke about how "the Chargers suck, so watch Gabbert play well against them this week."

But I can't even joke about that because he won't. A random collection of guys from this board could comprise the opposing defense and Gabbert would still play scared and terrible.

These aren't rookie jitters or struggles of an inexperienced QB. Christian Ponder has those. But he has flashes of looking like he has some semblance of what he's doing on the field.

Gabbert is Jimmy Clausen or Brady Quinn lost out there.

I played 34 OLB 43 DE in HS. I want in...look like Clay Matthews...maybe earn me a roster spot based off the one game haha

Brown Leader
11-30-2011, 07:02 PM
So ignore it. Don't follow that "rule."

Gabbert is ******* terrible. Watching him play confirms this. Normally, this is where I'd insert a semi-serious joke about how "the Chargers suck, so watch Gabbert play well against them this week."

But I can't even joke about that because he won't. A random collection of guys from this board could comprise the opposing defense and Gabbert would still play scared and terrible.

These aren't rookie jitters or struggles of an inexperienced QB. Christian Ponder has those. But he has flashes of looking like he has some semblance of what he's doing on the field.

Gabbert is Jimmy Clausen or Brady Quinn lost out there
I ******* hate people using Peyton Manning's rookie year to justify other bad rookie quarterbacks. Dude threw for 21 touchdowns and over 4000 ******* yards. He already had command of the offense by year's end. There was never any doubt, by any person, that Peyton was the real deal.

I'm sorry, but I can look at Jimmy Clausen, or Jamarcus Russell, or Blaine Gabbert and know that he's ******* terrible and not likely to improve much. It's the reason why, after their rookie seasons, Stafford still had so many supporters and Sanchez had so many detractors. Stop focusing on the narrative and focus on what's going on on the field. The eye test doesn't lie, so isolate the quarterback.

You know franchise QB potential when you see it - even through a player's rookie struggles. Gabbert displays the exact same faults that have absolutely destroyed many a talented + hard working QB's careers: David Carr, Joey Harrington, Rob Johnson. The most recent QB iteration who shares his issues is Kevin Kolb.

Gabbert. Is. Scared. His eye level is constantly at the rush instead of downfield. He takes more sacks per pass attempts than any player in the NFL right now. These types of quarterbacks make things infinitely harder for all of the other players on offense - especially the offensive line. You simply cannot build around that.

Yes, it has absolutely nothing to do with Mike Thomas, Jason Hill, Jarrett Dillard, Chastin West, Cecil Shorts, Mercedes Lewis, Zach Potter or Fendi Onobun.

BeerBaron
11-30-2011, 07:11 PM
Yes, it has absolutely nothing to do with Mike Thomas, Jason Hill, Jarrett Dillard, Chastin West, Cecil Shorts, Mercedes Lewis, Zach Potter or Fendi Onobun.

You can isolate Gabbert from the surrounding cast. He is poor in areas that have nothing to do with any other player on the field. The second 11 defenders hit the field, he already starts panicking in the pocket. His footwork, accuracy, ability to read the field...all terrible.

You could surround a guy like that with pro bowl level talent and at best, he'll get lucky a few times just chucking up the ball.

wogitalia
11-30-2011, 07:23 PM
I still stand by the single worst thing involved around Gabbert this year is the fact he is on the field in the first place. What kind of inept coaching/management takes a project QB that never should have started in at least his first year and starts him behind an average line with absolutely no weapons.

I'm a big believer that you can put people in a position to succeed or to fail, the Jags have done just about everything possible to guarantee Gabbert would fail.

Speaking of which, how about Matt Moore this year, goes from that horrible Carolina situation to a fair bit less horrible situation in Miami and he actually looks alright. Makes you wonder on some other busts like Clausen.

Gabbert though is done, they drafted a guy with several areas that needed work before he would be NFL ready, then they threw him to the wolves and have since added a good 3 or 4 more things that now need to be fixed, they've basically eliminated everything he could do well and exposed that which he can.

NOLAFan
11-30-2011, 07:33 PM
6.) End Suh's Season
I think it's the only message the league can send that he may actually receive. The fines he's been getting are nothing more than pocket change to the former #2 overall pick pre-rookie cap.

A game or two suspension might wake him up a little, but send the absolute strongest message possible and end his season. I guarantee he changes starting next year after that.

Additionally, no matter how long he's suspended, the Lions should still sit him during any appeal. If he appeals and is allowed to play this week, it's a travesty. To quote Mike Periera, "he's not dirty, he's filthy."

If the league wants it's efforts to protect the players to be taken seriously, they need to be protected from themselves. Suspending Suh for the year would send a message to absolutely everyone that this behavior will not be tolerated.

The league won't. But they should. If I were the commish (and everyone should be thankful that I am not,) the banhammer would be out in full force on this one.

That's all I've got for this week. There may be some other stuff but this is what I came up with offhand. If you want to ask me something else, feel free to do so in the thread. If I think of anything or something crazy happens in tonight's game, I'll update this later.

I think being suspended for the rest of the season is a bit harsh but i see where you are coming from. The thing that bothers me most is that Suh seems to get alot of attention when other "dirty" players deserve some punishment too. One that comes to mind is Charles Freakin Woodson. I have seen that man throw so many punches this season and not once has he been flagged, I have also seen some fierce uppercuts from this guy and even the announcers have said wow he should be ejected and my favorite was when one of the announcers says "their the packers! the refs arent going to eject a top tier player from the NFLs most popular team at the moment." So until i see a crack down on all players or blatantly clear crap like the Suh Stomp then i will continue to argue NFL favoritism

J-Mike88
11-30-2011, 08:03 PM
One that comes to mind is Charles Freakin Woodson. I have seen that man throw so many punches this season and not once has he been flagged, I have also seen some fierce uppercuts from this guy...
So you're saying Woodson has frequently gone Manny Pacquioa out there?
I remember one time.
And yes he should have been penalized and ejected for it.
Still, is he going to hurt a player with a punch to the guy's helmet/facemask?

You surely, shirley, aren't going to compare that to what Suh has done 2 or 3 times now.

brat316
11-30-2011, 08:32 PM
So you're saying Woodson has frequently gone Manny Pacquioa out there?
I remember one time.
And yes he should have been penalized and ejected for it.
Still, is he going to hurt a player with a punch to the guy's helmet/facemask?

You surely, shirley, aren't going to compare that to what Suh has done 2 or 3 times now.

Its the thought that counts. Maybe next time he aims under the face mask.

BeerBaron
11-30-2011, 09:59 PM
I still stand by the single worst thing involved around Gabbert this year is the fact he is on the field in the first place. What kind of inept coaching/management takes a project QB that never should have started in at least his first year and starts him behind an average line with absolutely no weapons.

I'm a big believer that you can put people in a position to succeed or to fail, the Jags have done just about everything possible to guarantee Gabbert would fail.

Speaking of which, how about Matt Moore this year, goes from that horrible Carolina situation to a fair bit less horrible situation in Miami and he actually looks alright. Makes you wonder on some other busts like Clausen.

Gabbert though is done, they drafted a guy with several areas that needed work before he would be NFL ready, then they threw him to the wolves and have since added a good 3 or 4 more things that now need to be fixed, they've basically eliminated everything he could do well and exposed that which he can.

Moore has looked alright with Miami, but I don't think Clausen is worth anything.

I made it a point to sit through some Panthers games that he started and he was Gabbert-esque. Fish out of water mixed with a chicken with it's head cut off. No flashes of what could be whatsoever.

BeerBaron
11-30-2011, 10:03 PM
I'm expecting a 2 game suspension which Suh appeals, gets to play this week, and then the suspension is brought down to 1 game.


Sounds like I'm only going to be slightly off. The appeal was expedited to tomorrow, being reviewed by Art Shell.

So I think it'll be reduced to one and he'll miss this week.

Brown Leader
11-30-2011, 10:12 PM
You can isolate Gabbert from the surrounding cast. He is poor in areas that have nothing to do with any other player on the field. The second 11 defenders hit the field, he already starts panicking in the pocket. His footwork, accuracy, ability to read the field...all terrible.

You could surround a guy like that with pro bowl level talent and at best, he'll get lucky a few times just chucking up the ball.

Put a pro bowl caliber QB with that rec group in Jacksonville and see if he makes it back to Hawaii.

Brown Leader
11-30-2011, 10:29 PM
.....Maby.

brat316
11-30-2011, 10:38 PM
.....Maby.

Manning, not eli and pre neck injury.

Brown Leader
11-30-2011, 11:09 PM
Just trying to be funny.

Gabbert's in a bad situation. Sure he needs work, and the weaknesses that we saw in college are surely still there in his rookie year. But his now ex-coach axed the incumbent for being a turn over machine. So he's telling his rookie QB to not make as many mistakes while throwing to the worst rec group in the league. Good luck-thanks coach.

Denver Bronco56
12-01-2011, 12:23 PM
"It’s time we forgot talk of best rookie and started to think in terms of Pro-Bowl, All-Pro, maybe even Defensive Player of the Year. It sounds crazy, but there may not be a better candidate than Miller right now…Focusing only on his play as a run defender and in coverage, he is still having an All-Pro caliber season…Miller is also the only linebacker in the league with more than 25 tackles that has yet to miss one…The scary part is that when most rookies are running into the metaphorical wall, Miller seems to be getting stronger. His past four games have been his strongest four, and at the moment he is proving to be an adversary that right tackles can’t contain…This might be the most dominant season from a rookie since Randy Moss defined the word ‘uncoverable’ in his first year with a chip on his shoulder in 1998.

Miller was just named the NFL's Defensive Rookie of the Month"


http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/12/01/stories-of-the-season-miller-much-more-than-the-roy/

Cam Newton might have started the season pretty well but i think the broncos got the best player in the draft

BeerBaron
12-01-2011, 12:27 PM
At no point have I said anything negative about Miller. He's the Broncos real MVP.

Denver Bronco56
12-01-2011, 12:30 PM
At no point have I said anything negative about Miller. He's the Broncos real MVP.

Oh yea no doubt I agree, and with Dumervil coming on strong it is a very nice sight to see the broncos having a pass rush for the first time since bertrand berry and reggie hayward in like 2003

Raiderz4Life
12-01-2011, 12:59 PM
Miller's awesome