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BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 10:54 AM
It was a busy weekend and I haven't had time until today to get my thoughts together, but there were a few things worth talking about:

Also, music:

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1.) Tim Tebow has been figured out.
I didn't say much after last week, because it was just one game. But after it happened again against a floundering Bills team that hasn't done anything right since September, it's worth noting.

Here is something I posted after week 13 describing how I would stop Tebow:
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2778304&#post2778304

And what did the Bills do this week, and what have teams been trying to do for a few weeks before that? Keep everything inside and play disciplined, press man coverage!

The Bills (and before that the Patriots) did a good job of keeping Tebow more contained and forcing him to throw from the pocket to well covered receivers. And what happens? Mistakes happen. He's not accurate enough to "throw open" covered receivers in the same way a true NFL QB can.

Call it a fluke or an aberration...why not. His constant close wins were quite ridiculous, but as I kept saying over and over, they were playing with fire. And now he's been blown out twice by defenses that are starting to figure him out and offenses that don't allow the game to remain close.

Somewhere, John Elway is biting his lip to hold back a little smile...things are moving a little closer to him being able to get an actual QB.

2.) A look ahead to Giants/Cowboys.
People (the media) want the the NFC East to be a powerhouse division. The teams within get talked up as Superbowl contenders even if they're really not, and weaknesses are never accepted. I called it the "gilded" division earlier this year and I still believe that.

And now, the division will be won by a team with fewer than 10 wins for the first time since the NFL/AFL merger. (I believe they said that on MNF last night.)

And if you think you have some idea of who will win this week...guess again. These have been two of the most inconsistent and frequently disappointing teams in the league. I could envision scenarios where this game is a blowout either way, or a close game either way. The Giants have stumbled against far inferior competition this year and no team is better at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory than the Cowboys. Both teams have QBs that anyone would consider as being in the top 7 or 8 overall, yet both will have bouts of inexplicable terribleness.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that the Giants will win this. Just a feeling that I have. I trust them just a little more than I trust the Cowboys right now. (And that isn't saying much.)

3.) Do you take the Packers or the NFC field?
This is a tough question. If you had to pick the NFC representative in the Superbowl...do you take the Packers or do you take any other NFC team?

The road is going to go through Lambeau, this we know. So I start to look at who could potentially go in there and knock off the Packers.

A.) The 49ers - The likely #2 seed barring a post-Christmas miracle by the Rams. The Packers biggest issue lately has been their run defense, severely weakened by the loss of Ryan Pickett to an injury. The 49ers greatest strength is their run game, and they have the personnel to play the Packers similar to how the Chiefs did when they won. Pound the rock, limiting the amount of overall drives the Packers get, and a defense that is great in the red zone. If they can, at the very least, limit the Packers to more FGs than TDs while running the ball effectively, the 49ers COULD pull this off. But their own red zone offense is pathetically bad and the 49ers aren't going to win a FG fest.

B.) The Saints - The Saints have the offense to keep up and perhaps even surpass the Packers offense. But the Saints are a different beast away from home, and I could see them having issues on a January day in Wisconsin. Also, assuming the Packers get Pickett back for the playoffs, this same Saints team badly struggled to run the ball against the Packers in the season opener. I don't know that they'll be able to fall back on the run game. I think that the Saints are about even with the 49ers in terms of their ability to go into Lambeau and win...but for very different reasons.

C.) The NFC East Winner - This one could be interesting. It's probably the most likely matchup for the Packers in the divisional round assuming the NFCE winner takes care of business in the wildcard round. (A big assumption.) The Giants played the Packers tough once and surely aren't a team the Packers want to see again. They tend to play up to their competition and, as they showed a few years ago, have no fear of going on the road in the playoffs. The Cowboys are another intriguing option. They're capable of playing as one of the league's best in any given week, or collapse in horrific fashion. I like the Giants odds a little better than the Cowboys.

D.) The Lions - A real "wildcard" of a wildcard team. They struggled with the Packers on Thanksgiving, which will be the only meaningful game these two teams have played. (I expect the Packers to rest up next week.) And as the Packers proved themselves last year, no team wants to see their division rivals for a 3rd time in the playoffs. But the Lions have major areas of weakness in pass defense and any shot they would have to upset a Packers team who is playing hard would be to win in shootout fashion. I like the more consistent Packers far better in that scenario.

E.) The Falcons - Well, first, they'll likely have to go into New Orleans and win there. And if last night was any indication, barring a rule change allowing the Falcons to play 15 defenders, that isn't likely to happen. And even then, if they go to Green Bay, they'll probably experience a beat down similar to last year. Unfortunately for the Falcons, they match up poorly with the NFC's elite teams.

In any individual matchup, at Lambeau in January, you'd be a fool to pick anyone but the Packers to win. But do I think one team in that group could trip up the Packers? I do. I fully expect the winner of the presumed 49ers/Saints divisional round game to give the Packers a run for their money. It should be a good game with either possible team against the Packers.

4.) Thoughts on Brees' Record
Well, first off, congrats. He's having a ridiculous year and if not for Aaron Rodgers existing, would almost certainly have the MVP award wrapped up.

I also feel a little bad, as this was Marino's last major record that I'm aware of. He may have some other, more obscure ones, but this was the last big one.

I think his accomplishments will be understated for generations to come and his legacy will be undersold. He never won a Superbowl, but as this is a team sport, I think that gets held against him more than it rightfully should. He was an absolutely dominant thrower of the football and if I could have any player in his prime, I'd take a young Dan Marino. He would have been successful anywhere as a passer and probably would have set records all the way. He was doing the things Brees and Brady and Peyton and Rodgers were doing 20+ years ago when the rules weren't nearly as favorable to offenses. That isn't meant to take away from what those guys have done and are doing, but I would love to see what Marino could have done in today's NFL. I'm not sure he could be stopped with that lightning release.

But alas, we'll never know.

5.) Gabbert Watch
50% accuracy, 4.71 YPA, no TDs. Blegh. Stats typically aren't everything, but sometimes they do tell the story. I am sorry Jags fans.

Rumor also is that they are talking to an "out of the box" candidate. I think Peter King mentioned it first the other night (so take that with a grain of salt...) Rumors have also stated it could be a special teams coach with Joe DeCamillis and Dave Toub in the mix. (DO NOT TAKE DAVE TOUB FROM ME. TAKE ******* MARTZ IF YOU WANT A BEAR COACH.)

So, good luck with that. (Btw, it pained me greatly to go from talking about Dan Marino to talking about Blaine Gabbert.)

6.) Carson Palmer Watch
11 TD to 15 INT on the season, with 4 multi-INT games (including two 3 INT games and a 4 INT game.) He squeaked out a win this week and still has the Raiders in playoff contention, if just barely.

As I've said before, he has until the end of next season to win a Superbowl with the Raiders. If not, it will be VERY hard for anyone to justify this trade. I didn't like it then and I still don't care for it now.

Are the Raiders better now than they would be with some of the other QBs they could have acquired? Probably. But is that worth giving up a first and second round pick? Most certainly not.

7.) The Colts may win their way out of the Luck sweepstakes.
Another win this week would essentially assure it, as I don't see the Rams beating the 49ers. I don't even see the Rams contending with the 49ers. In fact, as long as the 49ers don't **** and piss themselves, they should easily win by 3 scores. (Sorry Yoda.)

Should the Colts win, they likely drop to the #2 pick where they'll probably try and take someone to pair with Manning in helping them to win now. I don't know about you guys, but it seems unlikely that any one rookie player paired with a returning-from-serious-surgery Manning is going to take this Colts team from #2 pick to Superbowl contender again.

And that brings up the question for the Rams of do they take Luck? These rumors of that pick being worth 4 or 6 first round picks are just stupid. Stupid. Incredibly stupid. No team is going to give up that much. I would give up no more than two firsts for Andrew Luck before I'd gladly settle for Robert Griffin. So they aren't going to get an obscene amount in trade. Two firsts and some other picks might be the limit.

And even beyond that...do the Rams give up on Bradford? Since week 13 of last year, he's thrown 7 TDs to 12 INTs, is 3-12 as a starter and has missed several games due to injury. The Rams have also paid him pretty much all of his bonus money, so saving money is out. Only if there is a substantial cap hit would trading him become impossible.

Finally, with a new coaching staff and front office presumably in place, it will be far easier to move on from him as well since the guys who drafted him are out the door. New staffs always want their own guy at QB.

The possibilities are intriguing, but first, the Rams have to lose and the Colts have to win.

8.) Reader Questions:

First, from TACKLE:
About your Bears, despite Caleb Hanie's 0-4 record and overall ineptness filling in for Jay Cutler, they are still rolling with him as their starter. I can understand sticking with Hanie while they were still in the playoff picture, but now seems like a good opportunity to get a true feel for what they have in Nathan Enderle. I know they still want to try to finish on a positive note but I can't imagine Enderle hurting their chances of winning anymore than Hanie. I was high on Enderle coming out so I'm on a personal level I'm curious what he can do. Do you think they give a Enderle a shot before the season's end? Do you think they should?

I'm always for playing youngsters when your team is out of it. See what they have in them. McCown wasn't that bad against Green Bay, but this next game is meaningless. Start Enderle and let him get his feet wet. He'll be able to go into the offseason with a feel for a live NFL game. See if he shows any flashes of ability.

It seems unlikely that the BEars will, but I'd give Enderle a shot, absolutely.

And here is one from Bengals78:
How dreamy is AJ Green?

AJ Green is quite dreamy. He is an absolute stud in the making. 1000+ yards and 7 TDs, averagin 16.4 ypc, with another week to go is excellent for a rookie.

I loved him coming out, mostly for his smoothness. Everything he does just looks so fluid and athletic. I think he and Dalton have the potential to be a Peyton/Harrison type of connection for years to come as they grow together.

Green is a guy we'll be talking about as a top 3-5 WR in the league for the next decade.

(If you have a question you'd like to ask me, simply PM it to me and I'll answer it in next week's edition.)

bigbluedefense
12-27-2011, 11:27 AM
I just want you to know, that when Fewell unleashes the vaunted rush 3 cover 2 zone defense on the Cowboys this week, I will be cutting myself.

So when you see it, remember, I'm bleeding.

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 11:28 AM
I just want you to know, that when Fewell unleashes the vaunted rush 3 cover 2 zone defense on the Cowboys this week, I will be cutting myself.

So when you see it, remember, I'm bleeding.

That is...horrific. Why he was ever hired in the first place I don't know. How he was able to sell his scheme as fitting the talent there is beyond me.

AntoinCD
12-27-2011, 11:37 AM
I think this season is ridiculous for records going and I agree about Brees and the MVP without Rodgers. But when you look at it this has to go down as the best season ever for QBs.

Tom Brady is on pace for just over 5220 yards, approximately 40 TDs and 12 INTs. He is leading his team to a probable #1 seed in the AFC with quite possibly the worst defense ever to make the playoffs and he likely won't get a single MVP vote.

Drew Brees more than likely won't seriously challenge Rodgers for the MVP either despite likely breaking Marino's passing yardage by 400 yards with over 40 TDs.

The stat that just shows how dominant Aaron Rodgers has been this year is that he has 39 more TDs than INTs. That is more TDs than any QB not named Rodgers or Brees.

But going back you have to think, if the Saints hadn't over thought themselves in week one and let Drew Brees throw at the goal line instead of handing off to Mark Ingram and they scored and ultimately beat the Packers would Brees be the MVP favourite?

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 11:41 AM
But going back you have to think, if the Saints hadn't over thought themselves in week one and let Drew Brees throw at the goal line instead of handing off to Mark Ingram and they scored and ultimately beat the Packers would Brees be the MVP favourite?

Unlikely, because the Saints do dumb things like lose to the Rams while the Packers still probably would have beaten everyone else.

Remember, the media (ESPN) was on Rodgers dick pretty heavily, up until that Tebow guy came along.

Sheer "Drew Brees is old news, Rodgers is where it's at" -mania would have kept Rodgers in front.

I think.

ATLDirtyBirds
12-27-2011, 11:43 AM
Falcons really need to make a huge effort to pick up better supplementary pieces in the off season. There's a lot of good/very good players on this team, and a few studs, but they can't shine because of that lack of talent else where.


I'd also like to point out, Ray Edwards might be my most hated person in the league, and he's on my team. Read some of this, it's pathetic.

“As far as exploding off of it, I’m still not 100 percent. I don’t think I will be until [the offseason] when I go back to Minnesota to train and get back my strength in my legs that was lost in the surgery.

-Ah the classic, it's not my fault I'm sucking, I'm hurt. It's your first year, and you've done jack ****. If John Abraham said this, I wouldn't care, he's earned it. But you've done NOTHING for Ray. Here's what you say, "Yeah, I've had some issues recovering from the off season surgery, but I'm not going to use that as an excuse. My play is unacceptable, and now that I'm getting my legs back under me, I'm ready to contribute more."


Now, Edwards (and coaches) will tell you that he has been effective against the run all season. (Quoting: “I don’t think anybody at my position is as good at stopping the run as me.”)

-Now I will give him his credit here. He's a strong run defender. Not the best in the league, but strong nonetheless. But it just comes off so douchey. "Yeah, I'm not doing what you paid me for, but I'm the **** against the run, so **** it."

When asked about the criticism, Edwards laughed. “Y’all are very cut-throat,” he said. “But I’m not worried about it. You don’t pay my bills or cause me any grief or unhappiness. It is what it is. That’s your job.”

-Well as long as you aren't worried about it...

His transition to the Falcons’ scheme, which he termed “totally different” from the Vikings’.

Edwards rarely missed a defensive snap in Minnesota. He is used in a three-man, defensive-end rotation with the Falcons. The Vikings’ defensive scheme, he said, was more “straight forward.” The Falcons tend to use more stunts up front.

-So he's complaining that we are making an effort to keep him fresher (after he already cried about having surgery in the off season) and that we are trying to get him more free runs at the QB. Awesome Ray, simply awesome.



Not only that from a few days ago, check out this comedy from his twitter last night:

"It's funny how ppl judge you on ur job but who can judge you when you asking someone do u want fries with that or asking paper or plastic"

-Jesus Christ.

"Couldn't cause they un-athletic r just couldn't handle it #bums"

-Really?

@falconsfan1978 what u do seat behind desk n say man did u see the game last night if I was in the game I would have did this and that

-Ugh.


Seriously, go away. **** the Panthers for going so overboard on Charles Johnson. He should have been ours.

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 11:47 AM
Don't fans DO kind of pay Ray Edwards bills? I mean, he has a contract with the team who makes money by selling tickets and merchandise to fans...

He was just never very good. He was average. He is an average NFL DE. He was made to look slightly better than that by sharing a d-line with 3 guys who are all better than he is. Now he's in Atlanta and doesn't have that advantage, and sucks. Or is at least back to average.

AntoinCD
12-27-2011, 11:50 AM
Don't fans DO kind of pay Ray Edwards bills? I mean, he has a contract with the team who makes money by selling tickets and merchandise to fans...

He was just never very good. He was average. He is an average NFL DE. He was made to look slightly better than that by sharing a d-line with 3 guys who are all better than he is. Now he's in Atlanta and doesn't have that advantage, and sucks. Or is at least back to average.

I'm pretty sure he got a lot of his money after raping Marc Columbo one on one in the playoffs. But as you mentioned he was playing with one of, if not the, best DEs in the game in Jared Allen. Then at DT you had Fat Pat Williams who just ate up blockers and probably the best 3 technique of the last decade in Kevin Williams. Yet despite being single blocked on like 110% of plays he was never a difference maker

JBCX
12-27-2011, 11:51 AM
Ray Edwards was the most overrated free agent this past offseason and I'm surprised more teams and fans didn't realize it.

He was purely a product of playing on a defensive line with the Williams Wall and Jared Allen.

The Falcons would have been much better served going after a guy like Charles Johnson or Jason Babin, or even drafting a DE in the 2011 draft.

ATLDirtyBirds
12-27-2011, 11:53 AM
Don't fans DO kind of pay Ray Edwards bills? I mean, he has a contract with the team who makes money by selling tickets and merchandise to fans...

He was just never very good. He was average. He is an average NFL DE. He was made to look slightly better than that by sharing a d-line with 3 guys who are all better than he is. Now he's in Atlanta and doesn't have that advantage, and sucks. Or is at least back to average.


That's the problem. I'd kill for average at this point. Average is a gross overstatement of his abilities. I was never fooled into thinking he was some great pass rusher. I just figured we'd get his usual 8 sacks and strong run defense. He came a lot cheaper than I thought too, thought it was a good pick up. But he hasn't even been a considerable upgrade over Jamaal Anderson. That's pathetic. And of his whopping 3.5 sacks, 1.5 are a direct result of Abraham chasing the QB into his arms. Pathetic.


I hope there's something in his and Dunta's contract that let's us get rid of them without it killing our cap space. Both grossly overpaid, and aren't even really playing like acceptable supplementary pieces, like I mentioned before.

Bulldogs
12-27-2011, 11:55 AM
Ray Edwards was the most overrated free agent this past offseason and I'm surprised more teams and fans didn't realize it.

He was purely a product of playing on a defensive line with the Williams Wall and Jared Allen.

The Falcons would have been much better served going after a guy like Charles Johnson or Jason Babin, or even drafting a DE in the 2011 draft.

We wanted Charles Johnson badly but the Panthers threw huge money at him. The one thing I'm happy about with the Ray Edwards signing is we didn't throw crazy money at him, if he doesn't improve by next season we could probably just get rid of him.

Giantsfan1080
12-27-2011, 11:56 AM
That is...horrific. Why he was ever hired in the first place I don't know. How he was able to sell his scheme as fitting the talent there is beyond me.

Coughlin and Fewell had a relationship together from Jacksonville so Coughlin probably felt the most comfortable with him.

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 11:58 AM
That's the problem. I'd kill for average at this point. Average is a gross overstatement of his abilities. I was never fooled into thinking he was some great pass rusher. I just figured we'd get his usual 8 sacks and strong run defense. He came a lot cheaper than I thought too, thought it was a good pick up. But he hasn't even been a considerable upgrade over Jamaal Anderson. That's pathetic. And of his whopping 3.5 sacks, 1.5 are a direct result of Abraham chasing the QB into his arms. Pathetic.


I hope there's something in his and Dunta's contract that let's us get rid of them without it killing our cap space. Both grossly overpaid, and aren't even really playing like acceptable supplementary pieces, like I mentioned before.

Edwards was a panic move too don't forget. Starting Sidbury or Bierman while keeping some money in the bank probably wouldn't have made much a difference this year for the Falcons.

I forget who was saying it and who they were saying it about (really helpful, I know) but someone on this board within the last day or two was talking about how panic moves never, ever work.

You know what may have been a wiser though more indirect signing? Aubrayo Franklin. The Saints got him for chump change and having him as part of the inside rotation would probably have made the DEs you did have better.

But no, panic signing of Ray Edwards.

ATLDirtyBirds
12-27-2011, 12:01 PM
The Falcons would have been much better served going after a guy like Charles Johnson or Jason Babin, or even drafting a DE in the 2011 draft.


Part of the reason we traded up for Julio is because we figured the 7-8 defensive ends with a first round grade would be gone, which they were.

Charles Johnson was choice number one. I remember reading we offered about 6 years, 50 million. Just couldn't come anywhere near the 6/72 the Panthers offered.


I'm still not sold on Babin outside of Washburn's Wide 9. But yeah, anything would have been an upgrade over Ray.


BBD and I talked about it last night. It was desperation. We brought back 2 out of 3 on the OL, and filled the massive need for explosiveness for Julio. All the other options were gone, so we went for Ray (as the final piece), because we needed another DE to have any hope for a SB run. And it has just exploded in our face. Thank god he didn't get an absolutely massive deal.

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 12:05 PM
Also, random other thought, I want Marques Colston on the Bears next year. Draft o-line in round 1 and sign Colston. Get Cutler and Forte (via franchise tag) back healthy.

AntoinCD
12-27-2011, 12:07 PM
Also, random other thought, I want Marques Colston on the Bears next year. Draft o-line in round 1 and sign Colston. Get Cutler and Forte (via franchise tag) back healthy.

Eh, I think Colston would look so much better in a Patriots uni

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 12:08 PM
Eh, I think Colston would look so much better in a Patriots uni

Hey piss off. At least you have Welker and TEs. Mike Martz is like "what is a TE? Extra blockers? Ok!"

At least we got a 3rd for Olsen. In a league where all the best teams have great TEs, we traded ours to roll with Kellen Davis. Sigh.

JBCX
12-27-2011, 12:09 PM
Also, random other thought, I want Marques Colston on the Bears next year. Draft o-line in round 1 and sign Colston. Get Cutler and Forte (via franchise tag) back healthy.

Won't matter if the defense gets old fast. Peppers, Briggs, Urlacher, Tillman, Idonije.. all over 30.

I could see the Bears being ranked in the bottom 10 in defense for the next five seasons before they finally rebuild that thing. I mean, is there any young talent on defense on that team?

The lack of solid defensive draft picks for the past few years (due in no small part to the Cutler trade) will end up really hurting them.

Doesn't help that Cover-2 is an outdated scheme, as well, that will be ripped to shreds by Aaron Rodgers and Matthew Stafford for the next decade.

AntoinCD
12-27-2011, 12:11 PM
Hey piss off. At least you have Welker and TEs. Mike Martz is like "what is a TE? Extra blockers? Ok!"

At least we got a 3rd for Olsen. In a league where all the best teams have great TEs, we traded ours to roll with Kellen Davis. Sigh.

Hey you forgot the mighty Chad Ochocinco.

I'm actually more intrigued over the fit of Meachem for the Pats if we're talking Saints FA WRs. Try and get a deep threat back in the offense

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 12:14 PM
Hey you forgot the mighty Chad Ochocinco.

I'm actually more intrigued over the fit of Meachem for the Pats if we're talking Saints FA WRs. Try and get a deep threat back in the offense

I highly doubt the Saints let both Colston and Meachem leave. Meachem is younger so he might be the more likely candidate to keep around. Hard to say.

diabsoule
12-27-2011, 12:15 PM
Unlikely, because the Saints do dumb things like lose to the Rams while the Packers still probably would have beaten everyone else.

Remember, the media (ESPN) was on Rodgers dick pretty heavily, up until that Tebow guy came along.

Sheer "Drew Brees is old news, Rodgers is where it's at" -mania would have kept Rodgers in front.

I think.

So losing to the Chiefs isn't dumb for the Packers?

The MVP likely came down to who won that week 1 game. Both QB's have bad losses but Rodgers numbers are better and he's having a ridiculous season. Hell, all three QB's are having just monster years.

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 12:20 PM
So losing to the Chiefs isn't dumb for the Packers?

The MVP likely came down to who won that week 1 game. Both QB's have bad losses but Rodgers numbers are better and he's having a ridiculous season. Hell, all three QB's are having just monster years.

Losing to the Rams is far worse. Far worse. Don't pretend it isn't, because the Rams couldn't beat a dead horse right now. Superbowl contending teams with MVP caliber QBs have no business losing games like that.

The Packers were fresh off of losing Jennings and Pickett and still just barely lost that one.

K Train
12-27-2011, 12:23 PM
Tom Brady is on pace for just over 5220 yards, approximately 40 TDs and 12 INTs. He is leading his team to a probable #1 seed in the AFC with quite possibly the worst defense ever to make the playoffs

Take it easy with that...the steelers are gonna grab that #1 seed :-)

I highly doubt the Saints let both Colston and Meachem leave. Meachem is younger so he might be the more likely candidate to keep around. Hard to say.

Meachem was a first round pick the same year colston was undrafted wasnt he? Meachem cant be more than like half a year younger than colston

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 12:24 PM
Ok, I guess you're right, 28 to 27. I was thinking Meachem was like 25 for some reason.

Miaoww
12-27-2011, 01:13 PM
You forgot about Cam Newton.

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 01:16 PM
You forgot about Cam Newton.

I don't spend much time on 6-9 teams who just beat the worst team in football....

The Panthers are going to be what people thought the Buccaneers were headed into this year. That "youngry" team who everyone and their brother projects to make the playoffs.

That could happen. Sophomore slump could also happen too.

diabsoule
12-27-2011, 01:17 PM
Losing to the Rams is far worse. Far worse. Don't pretend it isn't, because the Rams couldn't beat a dead horse right now. Superbowl contending teams with MVP caliber QBs have no business losing games like that.

The Packers were fresh off of losing Jennings and Pickett and still just barely lost that one.

I'm not pretending it is. Both were bad losses. You could make the argument that Packers won the Super Bowl last year with INJURIEEZZ but couldn't beat the Chiefs.

Regardless, both QB's and Brady are all far deserving to be the MVP's this year. It's a damn shame it couldn't be shared

Miaoww
12-27-2011, 01:18 PM
I don't spend much time on 6-9 teams who just beat the worst team in football....

The Panthers are going to be what people thought the Buccaneers were headed into this year. That "youngry" team who everyone and their brother projects to make the playoffs.

That could happen. Sophomore slump could also happen too.

Just destroyed the worst team in football. Like they did to the Texans the previous week.

Rivera and McD have patch together that D with spare parts and misfit toys. They've done a stellar job all things considered.

49ersfan_87
12-27-2011, 01:19 PM
How bad would Elway look if Orton ends up knocking Tebow and the Broncos out of the playoffs? It was a classy move to release Orton and let him get a chance to audition himself for 2012, but Elway had to know it could come at the expense of the Broncos. I think Crennel will shut down the Broncos offense, the Broncos defense has faltered the last couple of weeks and Orton will be motivated. I think the Raiders beat the Chargers, who are just playing out the string now, so if KC prevails Denver is out..

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 01:20 PM
How bad would Elway look if Orton ends up knocking Tebow and the Broncos out of the playoffs? It was a classy move to release Orton and let him get a chance to audition himself for 2012, but Elway had to know it could come at the expense of the Broncos. I think Crennel will shut down the Broncos offense, the Broncos defense has faltered the last couple of weeks and Orton will be motivated. I think the Raiders beat the Chargers, who are just playing out the string now, so if KC prevails Denver is out..

I've been reluctant to say that because the Chiefs failed miserably in their first Tebow meeting. I'm hoping things will be different this time around with a lot more tape available.

hockey619
12-27-2011, 01:26 PM
I think this season is ridiculous for records going and I agree about Brees and the MVP without Rodgers. But when you look at it this has to go down as the best season ever for QBs.

Tom Brady is on pace for just over 5220 yards, approximately 40 TDs and 12 INTs. He is leading his team to a probable #1 seed in the AFC with quite possibly the worst defense ever to make the playoffs and he likely won't get a single MVP vote. worst D ever to make the playoffs? really? hyperbole much? theyre 14th in points allowed, stop trying to make it sound like brady is dragging his team against their will to the playoffs. so what if theyve given up a lot of yards, they dont give up touchdowns which is what shows up on the scoreboard.

Drew Brees more than likely won't seriously challenge Rodgers for the MVP either despite likely breaking Marino's passing yardage by 400 yards with over 40 TDs.

The stat that just shows how dominant Aaron Rodgers has been this year is that he has 39 more TDs than INTs. That is more TDs than any QB not named Rodgers or Brees.

But going back you have to think, if the Saints hadn't over thought themselves in week one and let Drew Brees throw at the goal line instead of handing off to Mark Ingram and they scored and ultimately beat the Packers would Brees be the MVP favourite?

in what way were they over thinking it there? the easiest way to gain one yard is to run straight ahead, and their line was beaten on the play. overthinking at the goal line imo is more like what UNC did the other day against MIZZ when they threw three straight incomplete passes from the two. then again they didnt have brees...

AntoinCD
12-27-2011, 01:33 PM
in what way were they over thinking it there? the easiest way to gain one yard is to run straight ahead, and their line was beaten on the play. overthinking at the goal line imo is more like what UNC did the other day against MIZZ when they threw three straight incomplete passes from the two. then again they didnt have brees...

So you have one of the best QBs in the game and an almost certain first ballot hall of famer and a great receiving cast including an absolute nightmare matchup at TE and a 6'5 WR with great body control and ability to shield defenders from the ball and your saying the best way to score a TD is by handing off to your rookie RB???

If it's in the middle of the field the best way to gain a yard is by running but there is no way I'll agree that running the ball in that situation is better than trusting Brees to make a good throw

hockey619
12-27-2011, 01:45 PM
So you have one of the best QBs in the game and an almost certain first ballot hall of famer and a great receiving cast including an absolute nightmare matchup at TE and a 6'5 WR with great body control and ability to shield defenders from the ball and your saying the best way to score a TD is by handing off to your rookie RB???

If it's in the middle of the field the best way to gain a yard is by running but there is no way I'll agree that running the ball in that situation is better than trusting Brees to make a good throw

eh i dont see it that way, i feel like most teams get too cute with trying to pass the ball when they could just fall forward on a run and convert plays like that. i did forget about graham though, that was right before he exploded and become a freaking monster.

it wasnt a failure by ingram on that play though. if a rb cant even get back to the LOS that ****s on the o-line everytime. they got handled on that play.

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 01:48 PM
Normally, I'd agree with you Hockey, as running the ball when you need to pick up 1 yard is the way to go.

But this is the Saints we're talking about. They aren't most teams. And there was plenty of evidence that whole game that they probably weren't going to be able to run on the Packers. The Packers just had the number of the Saints o-line.

AntoinCD
12-27-2011, 01:53 PM
eh i dont see it that way, i feel like most teams get too cute with trying to pass the ball when they could just fall forward on a run and convert plays like that. i did forget about graham though, that was right before he exploded and become a freaking monster.

it wasnt a failure by ingram on that play though. if a rb cant even get back to the LOS that ****s on the o-line everytime. they got handled on that play.

For sure way too many teams do try unconventional stuff on the goal line. But as BeerBaron said this is the Saints. If I have Drew Brees, or Aaron Rodgers, or Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning etc I'm letting them decide the ball game.

The best players on the Saints offense are Brees, Graham and Colston. I'd be way more comfortable with my offensive line giving Brees a few seconds in the pocket than try to clear the GB defensive line, which had owned the Saints all game, to let a RB run in.

shylo3716
12-27-2011, 01:57 PM
7.) The Colts may win their way out of the Luck sweepstakes.
Another win this week would essentially assure it, as I don't see the Rams beating the 49ers. I don't even see the Rams contending with the 49ers. In fact, as long as the 49ers don't **** and piss themselves, they should easily win by 3 scores. (Sorry Yoda.)

Should the Colts win, they likely drop to the #2 pick where they'll probably try and take someone to pair with Manning in helping them to win now. I don't know about you guys, but it seems unlikely that any one rookie player paired with a returning-from-serious-surgery Manning is going to take this Colts team from #2 pick to Superbowl contender again.

And that brings up the question for the Rams of do they take Luck? These rumors of that pick being worth 4 or 6 first round picks are just stupid. Stupid. Incredibly stupid. No team is going to give up that much. I would give up no more than two firsts for Andrew Luck before I'd gladly settle for Robert Griffin. So they aren't going to get an obscene amount in trade. Two firsts and some other picks might be the limit.

And even beyond that...do the Rams give up on Bradford? Since week 13 of last year, he's thrown 7 TDs to 12 INTs, is 3-12 as a starter and has missed several games due to injury. The Rams have also paid him pretty much all of his bonus money, so saving money is out. Only if there is a substantial cap hit would trading him become impossible.

Finally, with a new coaching staff and front office presumably in place, it will be far easier to move on from him as well since the guys who drafted him are out the door. New staffs always want their own guy at QB.

The possibilities are intriguing, but first, the Rams have to lose and the Colts have to win.
If by chance the Rams are awarded the #1 overall pick, Snyder will give up his whole franchise to select Luck #1 overall. Book it!

jth1331
12-27-2011, 02:30 PM
1.) Tim Tebow has been figured out.
I didn't say much after last week, because it was just one game. But after it happened again against a floundering Bills team that hasn't done anything right since September, it's worth noting.

Here is something I posted after week 13 describing how I would stop Tebow:
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2778304&#post2778304

And what did the Bills do this week, and what have teams been trying to do for a few weeks before that? Keep everything inside and play disciplined, press man coverage!

The Bills (and before that the Patriots) did a good job of keeping Tebow more contained and forcing him to throw from the pocket to well covered receivers. And what happens? Mistakes happen. He's not accurate enough to "throw open" covered receivers in the same way a true NFL QB can.

Call it a fluke or an aberration...why not. His constant close wins were quite ridiculous, but as I kept saying over and over, they were playing with fire. And now he's been blown out twice by defenses that are starting to figure him out and offenses that don't allow the game to remain close.

Somewhere, John Elway is biting his lip to hold back a little smile...things are moving a little closer to him being able to get an actual QB.


Last week Tebow looked decent, and he sure didn't have help along the way last week(against New England I'm talking about).
Against the Bills yes he played like crap. He made young QB mistakes, for instance the first INT returned for a TD he thought he had his guy wide open on the seam but the safety made a play. He constantly underthrew guys deep.
I will say this, time and time again, the playcalling is crap. After they scored a TD, what is the offense gameplan? Run up the middle, run up the middle, face 3rd and 8. That is not what you can do with Tebow.
Then one time it was 2 runs for 9 yards, and 3rd and 1 is a toss play.
I still think give him a real offseason to work and get a playmaker on offense could do wonders.

AntoinCD
12-27-2011, 02:39 PM
Last week Tebow looked decent, and he sure didn't have help along the way last week(against New England I'm talking about).
Against the Bills yes he played like crap. He made young QB mistakes, for instance the first INT returned for a TD he thought he had his guy wide open on the seam but the safety made a play. He constantly underthrew guys deep.
I will say this, time and time again, the playcalling is crap. After they scored a TD, what is the offense gameplan? Run up the middle, run up the middle, face 3rd and 8. That is not what you can do with Tebow.
Then one time it was 2 runs for 9 yards, and 3rd and 1 is a toss play.
I still think give him a real offseason to work and get a playmaker on offense could do wonders.

Last week was against the New England Patriots though. Anything describing how well a QB does against the Pats should come with an asterisks. More to the point he done more damage through the air when the Pats went to prevent. Realistically if you can't throw against the New England secondary, especially when they go prevent, then you shouldn't be playing this game

A Perfect Score
12-27-2011, 02:41 PM
BB, you know I love your writeups and I have mad respect, but you've gotta give me a little bit of Ravens insight to keep me interested.

Just kidding. I, for some terribly unexplained reason, want the Lions to upset the Packers in the playoffs. I think that'd make too good of a story.

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 02:55 PM
Last week was against the New England Patriots though. Anything describing how well a QB does against the Pats should come with an asterisks. More to the point he done more damage through the air when the Pats went to prevent. Realistically if you can't throw against the New England secondary, especially when they go prevent, then you shouldn't be playing this game

Like I said last week, if anyone else threw their best game against the Patriots, it would be with the disclaimer: "Against the Patriots."

BB, you know I love your writeups and I have mad respect, but you've gotta give me a little bit of Ravens insight to keep me interested.

Just kidding. I, for some terribly unexplained reason, want the Lions to upset the Packers in the playoffs. I think that'd make too good of a story.

I'll try to work in more Ravens talk in the future. But right now, I'm all out of Cam Cameron bashing since they're coming off of a win.

If they lose on the road at Cincy and give up the division and bye week, you can bet your ass that I'll have some mean things to say.

The Ravens at home in the divisional round = Getting to the AFC Championship

The Ravens on the road as a wildcard team = most likely an embarrassing one and done.

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 03:28 PM
i don't buy any of this. the playcalling hasn't really changed from when tebow was 'the best 4th quarter qb ever' to when he was dog****. like i said in the broncos thread, if mcgahee isn't getting it going, the offense has been garbage all season. tim tebow is simply incapable, at this point, of moving the team when mcgahee isn't picking up 5ypc. the read option is generally worthless in the first three quarters. his passing is atrocious. he has no ability whatsoever to make a pre-snap read, or, generally, to make a read from the pocket when he should be releasing the ball.

yes, he's had some drops. but he's wildly missed wide open receivers on a regular enough basis that it's not even remotely surprising when he does it. he throws an end over end duck with zero touch that, 9.9 times out of ten isn't where the ball needs to be.

the offense desperately needs a secondary option to mcgahee. the offense also desperately needs a guy who can actually play more than wildcat qb. at this point, i'd guess that tebow has generally been less effective than ronnie brown was when the dolphins first started running the wildcat regularly. passing and running.

had it not been for opposing teams immediately shifting to prevent in the 4th quarter, we wouldn't be talking about giving tebow more time (because, apparently 2 years including one spent almost entirely on the bench under a former highly-respected qb coach isn't enough time to even learn how to throw the football properly, another year will certainly make a difference). we'd be talking about taking rg3.

HA! YES!

Unfortunately, Brown is a 33% passer, but does have a 2-0 TD-INT ratio! That's better than Trent Dilfer!

He does throw a TD on 16% of his pass attempts though. That's kind of impressive.

Back to being serious though, the Wildcat is what I compared this to initially. Things got pretty ridiculous for a few a weeks, but we're bouncing back to reality here.

TimmG6376
12-27-2011, 03:32 PM
Last week Tebow looked decent, and he sure didn't have help along the way last week(against New England I'm talking about).
Against the Bills yes he played like crap. He made young QB mistakes, for instance the first INT returned for a TD he thought he had his guy wide open on the seam but the safety made a play. He constantly underthrew guys deep.
I will say this, time and time again, the playcalling is crap. After they scored a TD, what is the offense gameplan? Run up the middle, run up the middle, face 3rd and 8. That is not what you can do with Tebow.
Then one time it was 2 runs for 9 yards, and 3rd and 1 is a toss play.
I still think give him a real offseason to work and get a playmaker on offense could do wonders.

Mangini broke down this play on ESPN. In his opinion it was the correct read but the ball was too late (slow release) and too deep (inaccurate). If the ball is thrown with more velocity and a lower trajectory it is a 20 yard completion. A play he says is pretty routine against the defense the Bills were playing. Tebow floated the ball and gave the Byrd a chance to make a play.

jth1331
12-27-2011, 03:34 PM
i don't buy any of this. the playcalling hasn't really changed from when tebow was 'the best 4th quarter qb ever' to when he was dog****. like i said in the broncos thread, if mcgahee isn't getting it going, the offense has been garbage all season. tim tebow is simply incapable, at this point, of moving the team when mcgahee isn't picking up 5ypc. the read option is generally worthless in the first three quarters. his passing is atrocious. he has no ability whatsoever to make a pre-snap read, or, generally, to make a read from the pocket when he should be releasing the ball.

yes, he's had some drops. but he's wildly missed wide open receivers on a regular enough basis that it's not even remotely surprising when he does it. he throws an end over end duck with zero touch that, 9.9 times out of ten isn't where the ball needs to be.

the offense desperately needs a secondary option to mcgahee. the offense also desperately needs a guy who can actually play more than wildcat qb. at this point, i'd guess that tebow has generally been less effective than ronnie brown was when the dolphins first started running the wildcat regularly. passing and running.

had it not been for opposing teams immediately shifting to prevent in the 4th quarter, we wouldn't be talking about giving tebow more time (because, apparently 2 years including one spent almost entirely on the bench under a former highly-respected qb coach isn't enough time to even learn how to throw the football properly, another year will certainly make a difference). we'd be talking about taking rg3.

Mike McCoy is a **** OC. He hardly ever does what Tebow really needs, effective screen passes, bootlegs, rollouts, moving the pocket.
Also, against the Bills, after that first drive he was atrocious. I mean he did have Decker wide open down the sideline and he underthrew it by 15 yards, which should've been a pass interference call but no call.
Anyways, this last game had me back on the not sure phase. I do think he might be able to develop into a pretty good starting QB who isn't typical of QB's these days.
My thinking now is if he does turn it around under the guidance of Elway/etc. and progresses, hey we do have a franchise QB.
If not, he will most likely stink our way to drafting Barkley.

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 03:34 PM
Mangini broke down this play on ESPN. In his opinion it was the correct read but the ball was too late (slow release) and too deep (inaccurate). If the ball is thrown with more velocity and a lower trajectory it is a 20 yard completion. A play he says is pretty routine against the defense the Bills were playing. Tebow floated the ball and gave the Byrd a chance to make a play.

If only he had a faster release and better accuracy....if only those issues were known about back when he entering the draft.

Raiderz4Life
12-27-2011, 03:36 PM
My dad keeps pissing me off. Somehow when I say Eli and Aaron and Tom are good QBs but Tebow is a bad QB i'm just a senseless hater who doesn't want to give Tebow credit for just winning.

He does the same **** everyone else does...when Denver wins its Tebow...when they lose...its the other 52 guys fault.

/end rant

TimmG6376
12-27-2011, 03:40 PM
Wasn't McCoy getting all kind of kudos for scrapping the traditional offense and adapting to Tebow's strengths during the winning streak? Now that Tebow isn't getting miracle victories the playcalling is ******** and McCoy sucks?

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 03:41 PM
My dad keeps pissing me off. Somehow when I say Eli and Aaron and Tom are good QBs but Tebow is a bad QB i'm just a senseless hater who doesn't want to give Tebow credit for just winning.

He does the same **** everyone else does...when Denver wins its Tebow...when they lose...its the other 52 guys fault.

/end rant

I preach football to my family. The believe what I believe. We were eating dinner on Christmas Eve at a friend of the family's house and I looked up some scores on my phone and saw how bad Tebow lost.

We all celebrated.

jth1331
12-27-2011, 03:42 PM
Wasn't McCoy getting all kind of kudos for scrapping the traditional offense and adapting to Tebow's strengths during the winning streak? Now that Tebow isn't getting miracle victories the playcalling is ******** and McCoy sucks?

Most Denver fans have hated McCoy's playcalling.
Barely any screens, quick hitches/quick slants, rollouts, bootlegs, moving the pocket. Instead its a playfake and 7 step drop looking for long developing routes. Yeah, good luck with that.

And seriously, I'm saying Tebow sucked against the Bills. As did pretty much everybody that game to be honest.

bigbluedefense
12-27-2011, 03:45 PM
Teeeeebowwwwwww! Woaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Teeeeeeeeeebowwwww! Woaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Teeeeeebowwwwww! Woaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

DraftSavant
12-27-2011, 03:45 PM
I preach football to my family. The believe what I believe. We were eating dinner on Christmas Eve at a friend of the family's house and I looked up some scores on my phone and saw how bad Tebow lost.

We all celebrated.

My dweeb hipster cousin is a Peyton Manning dick-rider, so football talk is strictly forbidden between me and him at Christmas. Lest I stab his ******* eyes out with a turkey baster.

Raiderz4Life
12-27-2011, 03:59 PM
I preach football to my family. The believe what I believe. We were eating dinner on Christmas Eve at a friend of the family's house and I looked up some scores on my phone and saw how bad Tebow lost.

We all celebrated.

Not my dad...he lets those clowns at ESPN tell him whats up.

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 04:00 PM
Not my dad...he lets those clowns at ESPN tell him whats up.

Sounds like you need to stage an intervention.

jth1331
12-27-2011, 04:09 PM
tebow can't run those plays. he's not accurate enough to throw screens consistently. he can't boot to the right, period. y'all are angry with a coach because he's not calling plays his qb can't physically run. you mentioned quick slants in the next post, without remembering that tebow would literally have to start throwing it before the snap. he simply can't run the plays you want mccoy to call. which is why they aren't being called.

I'm just saying bootlegs made Jake Plummer into a Pro Bowl looking QB.
Boot/roll out to the left, etc.

A Perfect Score
12-27-2011, 04:10 PM
APS's Week 16 Thoughts read as

- More TomTom, less Tebow

Just because TomTom is funny.

Raiderz4Life
12-27-2011, 04:51 PM
I'm just saying bootlegs made Jake Plummer into a Pro Bowl looking QB.
Boot/roll out to the left, etc.

Plummer could actually hit the broadside of a barn though and his wind up wasn't 10 seconds long.

Tebow absolutely blows as a passer.

hockey619
12-27-2011, 05:39 PM
tebow can't run those plays. he's not accurate enough to throw screens consistently. he can't boot to the right, period. y'all are angry with a coach because he's not calling plays his qb can't physically run. you mentioned quick slants in the next post, without remembering that tebow would literally have to start throwing it before the snap. he simply can't run the plays you want mccoy to call. which is why they aren't being called.


youve seen more denver than i have and so have a few others here, so question for you guys: have you been impressed with mccoy as an OC?

The one thing that hes done that has impressed me is how much he adapted to tebow rather than doing the thing most coaches do which is just plug in the next guy no matter how terrible a fit he is for said system.



To everyone:
Gary Kubiak is obviously a very good offensive mind and has created a very good running game. I was wondering if anyone whos seen more of the texans than I could give me some info on it or shoot me an old playbook or something. im very curious as to what it is about his running game that makes it so successful.

SuperMcGee
12-27-2011, 05:43 PM
I'm just amazed that we were actually able to do what we did considering who we had on the outside. Kelsay might have had the best game of his stunningly average 9-year career and his counterpart proved that even if you can walk on water, you still can't cross the Moats. I was less surprised by Spencer Johnson getting a pick-6 than I would be by his ability to contain... anybody.

Dareus was also disrupting the inside rather nicely <333 Going to end up leading the team in sacks.

WCH
12-27-2011, 05:53 PM
My dweeb hipster cousin is a Peyton Manning dick-rider, so football talk is strictly forbidden between me and him at Christmas. Lest I stab his ******* eyes out with a turkey baster.

My sister had an ex-boyfriend like that. For a while, every time I saw him he would ask me if I saw the latest TO game.

Him: "TO's the best WR in football."
Me: "No, Trevor, he's not."
Him: "Yeah, TO's the best WR in football."
Me: "Are you stupid? Randy Moss actually decided to try this year, and he has 21 TDs!"
Him: "TO's the best WR in football."

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 06:43 PM
To everyone:
Gary Kubiak is obviously a very good offensive mind and has created a very good running game. I was wondering if anyone whos seen more of the texans than I could give me some info on it or shoot me an old playbook or something. im very curious as to what it is about his running game that makes it so successful.

He might have the best o-line in football. He also sticks with it, as they have the most rush attempts in the league this season. They just wear people down going at them.

Doesn't hurt that Arian Foster is also actually pretty good.

A Perfect Score
12-27-2011, 06:48 PM
He might have the best o-line in football. He also sticks with it, as they have the most rush attempts in the league this season. They just wear people down going at them.

Doesn't hurt that Arian Foster is also actually pretty good.

Also, it's not exactly unprecedented. He turned Steve Slaton into a 1200 yard rusher too.

Kubiak runs the same system that made Shanahan so successful in Denver. Much has been made about the ZBS and the effect it's had on some offenses throughout the league, but nobody does it like those guys do. It's just so impressive the way they open the huge running lanes that allow those big, one cut runners to accelerate through the hole into the second level. I was a huge Foster doubter coming into the year, I figured he'd flame out fairly quickly only to have Ben Tate step in, but he's impressed me this year. He runs with authority, that's for sure. Gotta respect that.

DraftSavant
12-27-2011, 06:56 PM
Kubiak is probably my favorite offensive mind in football right now. They have two base running plays and about four staple pass concepts (hi-lo, flood, mesh, snag). Obviously, they run those six plays out of a million different formations and personnel packages. But it's really poetry-in-motion to watch, and it confuses the **** out of defenses because everything looks the same.

BeerBaron
12-27-2011, 06:57 PM
Kubiak is probably my favorite offensive mind in football right now. They have two base running plays and about four staple pass concepts (hi-lo, flood, mesh, snag). Obviously, they run those six plays out of a million different formations and personnel packages. But it's really poetry-in-motion to watch.

It's less awesome in recent weeks though because the leash he has on Yates is so short that he's basically just grabbing him and holding him by the back of the collar.

The guy looked pretty good in the Bengals game, but since then, Kubiak won't let him do anything.

ATLDirtyBirds
12-27-2011, 07:01 PM
Kubiak is probably my favorite offensive mind in football right now. They have two base running plays and about four staple pass concepts (hi-lo, flood, mesh, snag). Obviously, they run those six plays out of a million different formations and personnel packages. But it's really poetry-in-motion to watch, and it confuses the **** out of defenses because everything looks the same.



I'm so conflicted on this. I absolutely love zone blocking and everything Kubiak does (the ************ makes Schaub's slow ass on the move look good), but that Saints offense....

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
12-27-2011, 07:02 PM
It's less awesome in recent weeks though because the leash he has on Yates is so short that he's basically just grabbing him and holding him by the back of the collar.

The guy looked pretty good in the Bengals game, but since then, Kubiak won't let him do anything.

Maybe because he's just not that good. Yates definitely has potential, but at this point, he's not consistent enough for Kubiak to let him run the full offense.

jth1331
12-28-2011, 08:59 AM
i really, really miss kubes.

Ever since he left the offense hasn't been the same in Denver.