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View Full Version : Is Eli Manning on the same level as his brother?


Ness
01-15-2012, 07:17 PM
Took him a lot less time to win a Super Bowl. There shouldn't be an elite quarterback controversy anymore regarding him. And his road wins in the playoffs have been pretty impressive. What does he have to do to surpass his brother's legacy? Or has that been done already? He doesn't have as many 12-4 records like Manning has had every season, but he plays very well in the playoffs. Doesn't have that "choker" mantra that Peyton had for so long earlier in his career.

Bulldogs
01-15-2012, 07:18 PM
I don't think he's as good. Has a better defense and arguably just as good a receiving core too. It's kind of close, but Peyton to me is one of the top 3 QBs of all time.

bigbuc
01-15-2012, 07:19 PM
I think Eli is one hell of a QB, but no he's not his bro.

Basileus777
01-15-2012, 07:20 PM
If you want to talk about the post-season, then you could compare their performances given how many times Peyton has disappointed there. But overall, Eli isn't really in the same ballpark as his brother.

descendency
01-15-2012, 07:21 PM
Normally, I'd say no, but I have to wonder how good Peyton will be in 2012.

Clearly, Eli is playing his best football and Peyton is come off a lost year... I think they are a lot closer to equal than ever before. I'd even say I think Eli = Peyton.

PoopSandwich
01-15-2012, 07:22 PM
Not as good as him but 10x more clutch currently.

Ness
01-15-2012, 07:30 PM
I don't think he's as good. Has a better defense and arguably just as good a receiving core too. It's kind of close, but Peyton to me is one of the top 3 QBs of all time.

Whenever I think of Peyton, I think of his greatness, but then I think a lot of his early struggles in his career. I'm not sure if a lot of people remember. Just like Matt Ryan, he was 0-3 in the postseason to start his career. And then the Patriots wall came, and the dome team identity, etc. I don't think of that with Eli. That being said, ability-wise, Peyton is better. In terms of coming through on the big stage? I don't know.

Bengalsrocket
01-15-2012, 07:31 PM
I think a lot of people believed Eli has always been a fringe top 10 player. He's not lights out statistically but he can still put the ball where he wants and he's super clutch.

If anyone doesn't consider him right with the elite players (even if he's definitely the bottom of those elite) then they haven't been paying enough attention.

Giantsfan1080
01-15-2012, 07:34 PM
Eli is amazing but no where near Peyton. With that being said he's better when it matters.

Basileus777
01-15-2012, 07:34 PM
The OP makes it sound like we are comparing careers/legacy, not which QB is better now. Peyton is one of the greatest of all time, Eli has a long way to go to be in that company.

SuperPacker
01-15-2012, 07:34 PM
No.

Too many mistakes, plays with a better team so its not just him.

Just no.

jsagan77
01-15-2012, 07:48 PM
I don't think so. He's good, but he's not and probably won't ever be on Peytons level.

PoopSandwich
01-15-2012, 07:48 PM
No.

Too many mistakes, plays with a better team so its not just him.

Just no.

Peyton and Eli both have 1 ring, Peyton played on a team that had a higher skill level for about a decade.

Eli is much better in the playoffs and it is very possible he will be playing for another Super Bowl.

Eli is a ******* boss.

MI_Buckeye
01-15-2012, 08:01 PM
In terms of lifetime achievement and/or measuring each player in their prime, it's Peyton hands down. However, going into the 2012 season, I would prefer Eli.

wogitalia
01-15-2012, 08:04 PM
It's funny, Peyton is just flat out better as a player but I needed to win one playoff game, I'm probably going with Eli. No doubt in my mind that Peyton has struggled in the playoffs and is not a "clutch" QB. Eli still makes a lot of awful throws and is probably a bit too aggressive with the ball, but he also has a killer instinct and track record that is hard to argue with in the playoffs.

BloodBrother
01-15-2012, 08:11 PM
Peytons better but...Eli could end up with more rings so that's all tha tmatters in the end

BuddyCHRIST
01-15-2012, 08:37 PM
He's not as good, but with so many QB's approaching that discussion all time its time to start comparing them differently.

He might be the calmest/most collected QB in the league. He has absolutely no fear about going onto the road and playing a great team. He does some dumb ass things sometimes, sometimes for an entire season. But he obviously prepares very well and is an excellent leader.

LonghornsLegend
01-15-2012, 08:49 PM
In all honesty, I said it earlier this season, but I said if Eli was in a different offensive system a lot more people would consider this to be the case. Brees threw the ball 60+ times yesterday for instance, when has Eli done that, or even come close? The offense is conservative, they don't throw to the TE much, they try and run the ball even when they shouldn't, especially in the red zone, etc.


Eli has pretty much won my respect while I admittedly wasn't his biggest fan. He's very clutch, he owned the Pack on 3rd down, and I'm almost positive he'll win more SB's then Peyton. Peyton owned the regular season, I think when it's over and done Eli will be viewed as the better clutch & playoff QB.


Still though, overall talent as a QB, Eli is playing on the level of Peyton right now.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-15-2012, 08:51 PM
No, but right now he is playing at an elite level with no damn running game. Our identity isn't like all these passing teams. At our optimal level, we'd rather be running first or balanced. That's where we want to be. I personally hate it, but right now HE IS THE TEAM. He has been ALL season long!

PoopSandwich
01-15-2012, 09:25 PM
Peytons better but...Eli could end up with more rings so that's all tha tmatters in the end

Unless you're Trent Difler then you are a sack of ******* **** who got carried to the super bowl and tries to judge everyone else because his defense and Jamal the cocaine dealer Lewis carried his ass to victory.

Rodgrsh8scancrpatients
01-15-2012, 10:24 PM
eli 3rd most clutch qb in league behind great ben roethlisberger and tammy brady.

crossroads
01-15-2012, 10:30 PM
It's funny, Peyton is just flat out better as a player but I needed to win one playoff game, I'm probably going with Eli. No doubt in my mind that Peyton has struggled in the playoffs and is not a "clutch" QB. Eli still makes a lot of awful throws and is probably a bit too aggressive with the ball, but he also has a killer instinct and track record that is hard to argue with in the playoffs.

This is pretty much how I feel. Peyton probably is more talented and is the better QB, but Eli right now might be the best big-game QB in the league. Dude's ******* clutch.

WMD
01-15-2012, 10:30 PM
If Peyton had the Defense that Eli has had the past few years, he'd have more than one ring. I'm not saying Eli is being carried by his team, but he's probably getting more help from the rest of his team than Peyton has.

Caddy
01-15-2012, 10:37 PM
If Peyton had the Defense that Eli has had the past few years, he'd have more than one ring. I'm not saying Eli is being carried by his team, but he's probably getting more help from the rest of his team than Peyton has.

I like this way of thinking. Outside of Mathis, Freeney and Sanders, there hasn't been a whole lot of star power on the Colts. Compare that to the Giants who have had maybe the best defensive line in the league for a while now and Eli certainly gets more help.

DBNYDP
01-15-2012, 10:38 PM
I think there is something wrong with the whole well whoever has more rings is the better player. It's hard to compare because Eli has always had a much better team. As far as clutchness goes, I'm not even sure of that anymore. My big problem is that Peyton has to shoulder the burden for the whole season and every whole playoff game. He didn't have amazing running games or amazing defenses to take the pressure off or make up for his poor play generally. I'd also say that while he has had some great receivers, his receivers never really shouldered the burden and made up for poor play with that many incredible plays. Yes without a doubt Eli has gotten it done in crunch time, but he has not had to shoulder the burden like Peyton. I cannot help but wonder what would happen if you gave Peyton Manning the teams that Eli has played on, a team where he wasn't relied upon so much. I think there is a good chance if that happened he would be just as good if not better than Eli in the clutch. Football is a team sport, the only thing a win or a lose tells us is which team was better, not necessarily who is the better QB.

That being said I think Eli really backed up his statement from the summer. He's an elite QB, and I'd put him right behind Manning/Brady/Brees/Rodgers in terms of QBs today.

Rodgrsh8scancrpatients
01-15-2012, 10:40 PM
I think there is something wrong with the whole well whoever has more rings is the better player. It's hard to compare because Eli has always had a much better team. As far as clutchness goes, I'm not even sure of that anymore. My big problem is that Peyton has to shoulder the burden for the whole season and every whole playoff game. He didn't have amazing running games or amazing defenses to take the pressure off or make up for his poor play generally. I'd also say that while he has had some great receivers, his receivers never really shouldered the burden and made up for poor play with that many incredible plays. Yes without a doubt Eli has gotten it done in crunch time, but he has not had to shoulder the burden like Peyton. I cannot help but wonder what would happen if you gave Peyton Manning the teams that Eli has played on, a team where he wasn't relied upon so much. I think there is a good chance if that happened he would be just as good if not better than Eli in the clutch. Football is a team sport, the only thing a win or a lose tells us is which team was better, not necessarily who is the better QB.

That being said I think Eli really backed up his statement from the summer. He's an elite QB, and I'd put him right behind Manning/Brady/Brees/Rodgers in terms of QBs today.

LOL you have rodgers in front of ben?? wow..... that choke artist is not in the top 5.... easy to play that cupcake schedule, we saw what happens when he plays a team where he has to match them score for score.... he fails!! Matt Flynn > Faggy Rodgers.

bigbluedefense
01-16-2012, 07:42 AM
Let's not get caught up in the moment. Eli is a top 5 qb in the league right now. Peyton is a top 5 qb of all time.

Big difference.

I love Eli. But he has a long way to go before he's Peyton.

yanksknicks
01-16-2012, 07:58 AM
LOL you have rodgers in front of ben?? wow..... that choke artist is not in the top 5.... easy to play that cupcake schedule, we saw what happens when he plays a team where he has to match them score for score.... he fails!! Matt Flynn > Faggy Rodgers.

LOL, great comedy. I will give you Romo straight up for Rodgers and Flynn can be your starter with Romo your backup.

Rosebud
01-16-2012, 08:35 AM
Let's not get caught up in the moment. Eli is a top 5 qb in the league right now. Peyton is a top 5 qb of all time.

Big difference.

I love Eli. But he has a long way to go before he's Peyton.

Pretty much, Eli might be on Peyton's level right now, and after the injury Eli may even be the better QB going forward, but Peyton's been given the opportunity to lead and carry his team for such a long time and done so at such a remarkable level that Eli just doesn't match up. Now if Eli can add a ring or two while making this season's performance the norm, then one day his resume will compare admirably to his brother's, but for now and the foreseeable future Eli's legacy just doesn't match big brother's.

Rodgrsh8scancrpatients
01-16-2012, 09:07 AM
LOL, great comedy. I will give you Romo straight up for Rodgers and Flynn can be your starter with Romo your backup.

i never said romo was better dufus....

descendency
01-16-2012, 09:09 AM
He's not as good, but with so many QB's approaching that discussion all time its time to start comparing them differently.

He might be the calmest/most collected QB in the league. He has absolutely no fear about going onto the road and playing a great team. He does some dumb ass things sometimes, sometimes for an entire season. But he obviously prepares very well and is an excellent leader.

What's more un-nerving: Playing on the road (Foxborough, Lambeau, etc) or playing at home with NY basically watching? If you make a mistake, you're done.

Rosebud
01-16-2012, 09:19 AM
What's more un-nerving: Playing on the road (Foxborough, Lambeau, etc) or playing at home with NY basically watching? If you make a mistake, you're done.

That's part of why I love Eli, NY is a horrible place to be an athlete, but he's just perfect for it.

Malaka
01-16-2012, 10:58 AM
I, obviously, still think Peyton is and will be better career wise than Eli. However, if Eli adds a ring or two more to his collection, I think he without a doubt is a Hall of Famer like his big bro.

Iamcanadian
01-17-2012, 10:58 AM
I, obviously, still think Peyton is and will be better career wise than Eli. However, if Eli adds a ring or two more to his collection, I think he without a doubt is a Hall of Famer like his big bro.

I agree, if Eli can add even another ring, I'd put him ahead of his brother based on playoff performance. Stat wise Peyton is king but when you add in playoff performance Eli surpasses him if he can win at least another Super Bowl.

Rosebud
01-17-2012, 11:11 AM
I agree, if Eli can add even another ring, I'd put him ahead of his brother based on playoff performance. Stat wise Peyton is king but when you add in playoff performance Eli surpasses him if he can win at least another Super Bowl.

Here's where you run into the problem where Eli's environment cuts both ways. Yes he doesn't get the opportunity to put up regular season stats the way his brother does, but he also doesn't need to do as much during the course of the season and so has more in the tank for the playoffs and clutch moments. This season is the closest we'll ever get to knowing whether Eli would be able to match Peyton's regular season performance with that greater responsibility and we won't know whether he'd be able to carry his team in the playoffs as well after carrying such a weak team all season. If Eli wins a ring this year your argument has merit because this season Eli has carried the giants the way his brother has carried the colts for years, but even this season it was the D finally getting it's **** together that catapulted the giants into the playoffs and onto this current run.

hockey619
01-17-2012, 11:32 AM
Here's where you run into the problem where Eli's environment cuts both ways. Yes he doesn't get the opportunity to put up regular season stats the way his brother does, but he also doesn't need to do as much during the course of the season and so has more in the tank for the playoffs and clutch moments. This season is the closest we'll ever get to knowing whether Eli would be able to match Peyton's regular season performance with that greater responsibility and we won't know whether he'd be able to carry his team in the playoffs as well after carrying such a weak team all season. If Eli wins a ring this year your argument has merit because this season Eli has carried the giants the way his brother has carried the colts for years, but even this season it was the D finally getting it's **** together that catapulted the giants into the playoffs and onto this current run.

reminds me a lot of the colts' 07 super bowl win. peyton carried the team all year, then the D came alive late thanks to injured guys coming back and they actually were able to get it done in the playoffs (minus vs NE in the first half).

Jughead10
01-17-2012, 11:34 AM
reminds me a lot of the colts' 07 super bowl win. peyton carried the team all year, then the D came alive late thanks to injured guys coming back and they actually were able to get it done in the playoffs (minus vs NE in the first half).

Except Peyton was kind of poor during the playoffs. Poor for him at least.

Menardo75
01-17-2012, 03:27 PM
Eli has the ability to play to the level of his brother. The difference is Peyton plays on that level every week.

Rosebud
01-17-2012, 03:34 PM
Eli has the ability to play to the level of his brother. The difference is Peyton plays on that level every week.

Eli has the ability to play the way Peyton does at his best in the biggest moments. That's something Peyton has struggled with.

Ness
01-17-2012, 04:54 PM
Eli has the ability to play to the level of his brother. The difference is Peyton plays on that level every week.

Don't forget Manning plays in perfect conditions half of the time every single year. Manning plays half of his games in windy Jersey.

deepthoughtlife
01-18-2012, 03:31 AM
A simple question deserves a simple answer. No. It isn't even close. Peyton Manning is perhaps the greatest QB of all time; Eli has proven to be elite this season, but that is it.

On the note of Superbowls, Tom Brady is a far better QB now than when he was winning Super Bowls, and Eli is far better now than when he won his Superbowl. A Superbowl is a proof of success for the team, but is far less reliable for any specific player.

FUNBUNCHER
01-18-2012, 04:43 AM
What does Eli have to do get into Canton??
I think five more seasons of this level of play and another SB gets him there.

Saints-Tigers
01-18-2012, 04:53 AM
A simple question deserves a simple answer. No. It isn't even close. Peyton Manning is perhaps the greatest QB of all time; Eli has proven to be elite this season, but that is it.

On the note of Superbowls, Tom Brady is a far better QB now than when he was winning Super Bowls, and Eli is far better now than when he won his Superbowl. A Superbowl is a proof of success for the team, but is far less reliable for any specific player.


I think a lot of people miss this point.

ViperVisor
01-18-2012, 05:06 AM
Eli's regular season was a bit of an outlier.

Victor Cruz had 4 plays of 60+ yards. 319 yards with just 4 catches.

Nicks had 3 of his own. And Beckum with 1.

In 2010 Peyton had 1 60+ in 2010.

Eli QB Rating was 1.0 higher this year.

PACKmanN
01-18-2012, 07:40 AM
So when Packers' fans supported Brett Favre, we would get bashed by the fact Favre had thrown a ton of INT's. Now Eli has the same problem. His TD/INT ratio is 185/129. The other difference is, has Eli ever led his team. In his first few seasons, it was the run game with Tki that lead the team.

bigbluedefense
01-18-2012, 07:46 AM
So when Packers' fans supported Brett Favre, we would get bashed by the fact Favre had thrown a ton of INT's. Now Eli has the same problem. His TD/INT ratio is 185/129. The other difference is, has Eli ever led his team. In his first few seasons, it was the run game with Tki that lead the team.

Are you serious?

JetMan01
01-18-2012, 08:00 AM
A simple question deserves a simple answer. No. It isn't even close. Peyton Manning is perhaps the greatest QB of all time; Eli has proven to be elite this season, but that is it.

On the note of Superbowls, Tom Brady is a far better QB now than when he was winning Super Bowls, and Eli is far better now than when he won his Superbowl. A Superbowl is a proof of success for the team, but is far less reliable for any specific player.

Not much more needs to be said. I'll only add that Peyton has been a perennial threat throughout his career and truly the model of consistency. Eli, much like the giants, is infamous for being hot and cold. Even this current season he has yet to shake that label. And dont knock consistency as an important quality for a qb. Recently John elway said while talking about tebow "It's just a matter of getting down to where it's consistent, and that's the difference between good quarterbacks and great quarterbacks". Clearly the ability to perform at a high level, for more than one game, for more than one season, for the duration of a career, is increasingly difficult. But good for Eli, he without doubt made Giant strides this year. All he needs to do now is stay there

Rosebud
01-18-2012, 08:35 AM
Are you serious?

That's what you call the turd that exposes the troll post.

abaddon41_80
01-18-2012, 08:35 AM
Eli's regular season was a bit of an outlier.

Victor Cruz had 4 plays of 60+ yards. 319 yards with just 4 catches.

Nicks had 3 of his own. And Beckum with 1.

In 2010 Peyton had 1 60+ in 2010.

Eli QB Rating was 1.0 higher this year.

2010 Peyton > 2011 Eli. Peyton carried the worst team in the league kicking and screaming to a 10-6 record and set them up for a playoff win. The Giants this year are not a great team by any means but without Eli they would still destroy the Colts without Peyton.

Rosebud
01-18-2012, 08:36 AM
2010 Peyton > 2011 Eli. Peyton carried the worst team in the league kicking and screaming to a 10-6 record and set them up for a playoff win. The Giants this year are not a great team by any means but without Eli they would still destroy the Colts without Peyton.

I don't see anyway this team wins more than 2 or at best 3 games without Eli.

abaddon41_80
01-18-2012, 08:39 AM
I don't see anyway this team wins more than 2 or at best 3 games without Eli.

Really? The defense is unarguably way better than the Colts, especially now that they are healthy, and there are way more pieces on offense than the Colts have. The Giants have a solid offensive line, two solid to good running backs and two great receivers. I don't see how this healthy Giants team could win less than five or so games without Eli.

Rosebud
01-18-2012, 08:55 AM
Really? The defense is unarguably way better than the Colts, especially now that they are healthy, and there are way more pieces on offense than the Colts have. The Giants have a solid offensive line, two solid to good running backs and two great receivers. I don't see how this healthy Giants team could win less than five or so games without Eli.

Have you watched the giants this season? The defense was good for 4 games all season before the playoffs. The OL sucked monkey balls and has just recently gotten mediocre. Jacobs spent almost all season running like a ***** and Bradshaw's been hurt. Yes we have two studly receivers, but they're so studly because they and Eli are finally on the same page with this complicated offense that any other QB would struggle mightily with if thrown into the fray for an injured Eli and because Eli's deep accuracy and command of the offense makes it easy for them to make plays. Plus we haven't been healthy at all this year, still aren't. So sure hypothetically if everyone except for Eli were healthy this team could maybe win 4 games, if Fewell called games the way he has of late all season maybe 5, but if everyone where healthy alongside Eli we wouldn't have gone 9-7 and if Fewell were calling games like this all season on top of that there's a great chance this game is getting played in New York instead of San Francisco.

bigbluedefense
01-18-2012, 09:08 AM
Really? The defense is unarguably way better than the Colts, especially now that they are healthy, and there are way more pieces on offense than the Colts have. The Giants have a solid offensive line, two solid to good running backs and two great receivers. I don't see how this healthy Giants team could win less than five or so games without Eli.

1. The defense is hot right now. It was one of the worst in the league throughout the year.

2. The offensive line is garbage. We had the worst rush offense in the league and our pass protection is only serviceable on paper bc of Eli's pocket presence and anticipation skills.

3. Our RBs suck. Bradshaw dances too much behind the LOS and Jacobs is washed up.

Our team is basically a dline who can pass rush, Eli, and 2 very good WRs. Eli won 5 (or 6 I can't remember) games in the final 2 minutes of the game. That's over half our wins.

Without Eli, we'd be lucky to win 3 games this year. We'd be in the Luck sweepstakes.

abaddon41_80
01-18-2012, 09:10 AM
Sucks monkey balls to mediocre is still better than the Colts offensive line and, like I said, the defense at its worst is still better than the Colts defense. Same thing again with the backs. Bradshaw and Jacobs are way better than Addai, Brown and Delone Carter.

The receivers are certainly helped by Eli but, come on, have you seen some of the plays they have made this season? In is not even just Cruz and Nicks, Ballard and Manningham have made some fantastic catches and/or runs after the catch this year that have nothing to do with Eli's ability.

FUNBUNCHER
01-18-2012, 09:21 AM
Giants fans are poor mouthing their squad just a little, but I do agree the level they're playing at now isn't the same team that was on the field during the regular season.

This team would have won 12 games this past season.

Unlike year's past where I always felt Eli was just a piece on the NYG, now that squad only achieves what Elijah is able to produce from the QB position.

WHen he's great, the team is awesome.

If he's not carrying the offense's water, there are too many deficiencies IMO for the D to make up the slack.

He's by far the most important player on that team.

abaddon41_80
01-18-2012, 09:23 AM
Giants fans are poor mouthing their squad just a little, but I do agree the level they're playing at now isn't the same team that was on the field during the regular season.

This team would have won 12 games this past season.

Unlike year's past where I always felt Eli was just a piece on the NYG, now that squad only achieves what Elijah is able to produce from the QB position.

WHen he's great, the team is awesome.

If he's not carrying the offense's water, there are too many deficiencies IMO for the D to make up the slack.

He's by far the most important player on that team.

I agree with all of that. They still would have won four to six games (if healthy) without him, though.

bigbluedefense
01-18-2012, 09:35 AM
It's not easy winning 6 games in this league. Especially with a backup qb. If you have a strong run game, you have a chance, but when you rely so much on your qb to score points on offense, especially in the system we run which is probably the most complex route tree in the league, you can't just plug in a qb and get 6 wins out of him.

Our defense at it's peak can keep us in games, but our run game is just not good enough to make up for a backup qb.

bigbluedefense
01-18-2012, 09:36 AM
Oh and btw, you can give David Carr (our backup qb) the 85 bears, he still wouldn't win 6 games. So yeah...

bearsfan_51
01-18-2012, 09:43 AM
Skip Bayless? Is that you?

Seamus2602
01-18-2012, 09:44 AM
Without attacking Eli Manning, who has matured into one of the better quarterbacks in the game, the best way to recognise the gulf in class is the fact that it takes Eli playing the best football of his career and Peyton having a broken neck to get this thread going.

bigbluedefense
01-18-2012, 09:50 AM
Skip Bayless? Is that you?

Que???????

abaddon41_80
01-18-2012, 09:51 AM
I think the only question that needs to be asked is this,

Is this Giants team without Eli worse than the Colts without Peyton? I don't see how anyone could possibly answer yes.

Edit - I mean in regards to Peyton last year vs. Eli this year

bigbluedefense
01-18-2012, 09:53 AM
I don't think anyone here is saying Eli is anywhere near Peyton's level. That's foolish. Like I said earlier, Eli is a top 5 qb in the league right now, Peyton is a top 5 qb of all time. Huge difference.

hockey619
01-18-2012, 09:57 AM
A simple question deserves a simple answer. No. It isn't even close. Peyton Manning is perhaps the greatest QB of all time; Eli has proven to be elite this season, but that is it.

On the note of Superbowls, Tom Brady is a far better QB now than when he was winning Super Bowls, and Eli is far better now than when he won his Superbowl. A Superbowl is a proof of success for the team, but is far less reliable for any specific player.

yes. just yes. we had a thread about this started by WMDsackmachine i think a while back that pretty much made it clear that saying 'QB A won the super bowl!' is a pile of crap. teams win, not individuals. and its also a huge pet peeve of mine when people do that so props.

I think a lot of people miss this point.

espn is rotting peoples minds out, thats why they all miss it. they perpetuate the QB won the SB thing instead of the better team won the game.

2010 Peyton > 2011 Eli. Peyton carried the worst team in the league kicking and screaming to a 10-6 record and set them up for a playoff win. The Giants this year are not a great team by any means but without Eli they would still destroy the Colts without Peyton.

that was one of the worst playoff teams ive ever seen as far as actual talent goes, i think if you stack them up with the 7-9 playoff bound seahawks that year youll find the hawks being equal or better at almost every spot except QB. they were decimated by injuries that year in the year of injuriezzzzzzz. i said at the time, but they were an easy one and out in the playoffs, they just had nothing and no one left. in the playoffs, it becomes about team play and they just had a terrible team that stole a good record.

1. The defense is hot right now. It was one of the worst in the league throughout the year.

2. The offensive line is garbage. We had the worst rush offense in the league and our pass protection is only serviceable on paper bc of Eli's pocket presence and anticipation skills.

3. Our RBs suck. Bradshaw dances too much behind the LOS and Jacobs is washed up.

Our team is basically a dline who can pass rush, Eli, and 2 very good WRs. Eli won 5 (or 6 I can't remember) games in the final 2 minutes of the game. That's over half our wins.

Without Eli, we'd be lucky to win 3 games this year. We'd be in the Luck sweepstakes.

even as a giants fan, i think the giants w/o eli would be better than the colts w/o peyton. we have some decent peices around the board that we could scrap together and be competitive. cant really say the same for the colts who are really baron talent wise if you think about it. everyone is either old or overrated or andrew luck.

JetMan01
01-18-2012, 10:39 AM
Im curious, if the giants wrs drop as many passes as the packers wrs, or if the giants have as many turnovers as the saints, and they lost.. Do we still have this conversation?

PACKmanN
01-18-2012, 10:50 AM
That's what you call the turd that exposes the troll post.

Apart from the name calling, tell me when he has lead his team. His number aren't exactly HOF either.

Giantsfan1080
01-18-2012, 11:10 AM
He's led his team each of the last 3 years. Without him we'd never have been .500 or above.

Rosebud
01-18-2012, 11:11 AM
Apart from the name calling, tell me when he has lead his team. His number aren't exactly HOF either.

What name calling?

bearsfan_51
01-18-2012, 02:22 PM
Que???????
The question is so absurd and presentist that I just assumed it was from Skip Bayless.

"Hey a thing happened! That's the greatest thing of all time!"

*five seconds later*

"This thing is stupid and overrated!!"

bearsfan_51
01-18-2012, 02:29 PM
Also, to the person that mentioned Eli in the HOF. I suppose he has a chance if he wins a few more rings (Troy Aikman made it on the first ballot after all), but only because people give quarterbacks way too much credit for wins and losses.

Eli is a pretty good quarterback who is having an excellent season.

Career wise?

-He's not even close to the Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, Brees level.
-He's not at Big Ben's level, or even Philip Rivers' for that matter.
-I'd put him on that next level with Jay Culter, Tony Romo, Matt Schaub, and Matt Ryan (and, in my opinion, the lesser of all of those)

He just throws too many picks, and isn't exactly overwhelmingly in any other area to make up for it. He's not terribly efficient and doesn't complete enough long passes to make up for his lack of short-field accuracy. He is, and has always been, extremely overrated because of his name and where he plays.

Jughead10
01-18-2012, 02:46 PM
He just throws too many picks, and isn't exactly overwhelmingly in any other area to make up for it.

Yet you would put him behind Cutler?

Also, I think he completed more long passes than anyone in the NFL this year. At least top 3. Most of them haven't been because of YAC. That has been a more recent occurrence these last few weeks.

jrdrylie
01-18-2012, 02:53 PM
Rob Lowe (yes the actor) is reporting that Peyton is going to retire. Not sure how much stock you can put into what Rob Lowe says, but the rumor seems to be getting some traction.

Jughead10
01-18-2012, 02:55 PM
Rob Lowe (yes the actor) is reporting that Peyton is going to retire. Not sure how much stock you can put into what Rob Lowe says, but the rumor seems to be getting some traction.

I LITERALLY cannot trust him as a source. Unless he heard it from a trusted informant within the Pawnee government.

jrdrylie
01-18-2012, 02:59 PM
I LITERALLY cannot trust him as a source. Unless he heard it from a trusted informant within the Pawnee government.

Lowe is friends with Irasy. Lowe play a character in Parks & Recreation which is set in Indiana. Lowe stared in St. Elmo's Fire and there is a St. Elmo's Steak House in Indianapolis. Sounds crazy, but so is Jim Irsay.

bearsfan_51
01-18-2012, 03:10 PM
Yet you would put him behind Cutler?

Also, I think he completed more long passes than anyone in the NFL this year. At least top 3. Most of them haven't been because of YAC. That has been a more recent occurrence these last few weeks.
I think career-wise, Eli and Jay are similar. If we're talking about right now then yes, Eli is better (than all of them).

But that's not how I understood the context of the conversation.

Jughead10
01-18-2012, 03:13 PM
I think career-wise, Eli and Jay are similar. If we're talking about right now then yes, Eli is better (than all of them).

But that's not how I understood the context of the conversation.

I'm not sure the context either. Cause if it is over their career, this is a stupid thread. If it is for next year and next year going forward alone, then there is a definite conversation.

But I think you are downplaying how good Eli is.

Giantsfan1080
01-18-2012, 03:55 PM
Seems like a fantasy QB argument.

Primetime21
01-18-2012, 04:16 PM
Praise Tebow!!
Edit: My sig is disgustingly out of date.

sweetness34
01-18-2012, 05:10 PM
I think it all depends on what you value in a QB. Eli is different from Rodgers, Peyton and Brees in that he's not the pure passer they are.

However, his strength lies in his ability to take advantage of situational opportunities (a lot of which are in the clutch).

If Eli has a good defense, good offensive line and/or good run game he is as he's shown good enough to win a Superbowl.

I know he's never really been asked to throw it a lot on a consistent basis, but I also don't believe that is his strength either. He lacks accuracy and consistency. With a good team around him though he knows what to do and most importantly how to win games.

He's certainly a franchise QB though and I believe I've underrated his value for a long time.

I don't believe it's a coincidence that when the Giants' defense picked things up at the end of the year the team went on a hot streak (on both sides of the ball). They seem to compliment each other extremely well.

Rosebud
01-18-2012, 05:54 PM
Yet you would put him behind Cutler?

Also, I think he completed more long passes than anyone in the NFL this year. At least top 3. Most of them haven't been because of YAC. That has been a more recent occurrence these last few weeks.

Yeah, that to me was a little absurd, Eli throws it deep as often and as well as anybody in the NFL.

Rosebud
01-18-2012, 06:06 PM
I think it all depends on what you value in a QB. Eli is different from Rodgers, Peyton and Brees in that he's not the pure passer they are.

However, his strength lies in his ability to take advantage of situational opportunities (a lot of which are in the clutch).

If Eli has a good defense, good offensive line and/or good run game he is as he's shown good enough to win a Superbowl.

I know he's never really been asked to throw it a lot on a consistent basis, but I also don't believe that is his strength either. He lacks accuracy and consistency. With a good team around him though he knows what to do and most importantly how to win games.

He's certainly a franchise QB though and I believe I've underrated his value for a long time.

I don't believe it's a coincidence that when the Giants' defense picked things up at the end of the year the team went on a hot streak (on both sides of the ball). They seem to compliment each other extremely well.

Does this year not count? Eli is being asked to throw it a lot for the first time in his career and he's put up numbers that fall just short of your Brees, Brady and Rodgers', in large part because of how much more run intensive the giants become in the redzone despite the running game being amongst the league's worst.

His D has turned it around over the past month, but before that were absolutely turrible so of course the team got significantly better when the D stopped being so pathetic that the only way for the giants to win was for Eli to score the game winning TD with too little time for the opponent to score. Eli kept this team a float with Nicks and Cruz and now the giants are in the NFC title game despite still having a piss poor running game and mediocre OL. This season is all about what Eli can really do if he got to just sling it the way other elite QBs do, and he's done very well and remained clutch.

What makes Eli stand out is his ability to read and understand defenses where he's reaching Peyton levels, add that to his great pocket presence and deep ball and there's no shortage of ability for Eli to play the way he has whenever given the opportunity. Now he's had a couple bad games this year, but that's bound to happen when literally the whole team is relying on him to win them games for the vast majority of the season.

bearsfan_51
01-18-2012, 06:13 PM
career 58.4% completion and 3.3% int ratio.

He is the only quarterback even in this conversation who has both of those numbers and they are damning.

Again, if we're talking about right now that's one thing. But over the course of his career, Eli is not that impressive at all.

Raiderz4Life
01-18-2012, 06:17 PM
WOah...woah...dang BF....I'm with you on a lot of things but did you really say Rivers > Eli???

I'm sorry but no.

Rosebud
01-18-2012, 06:18 PM
WOah...woah...dang BF....I'm with you on a lot of things but did you really say Rivers > Eli???

I'm sorry but no.

If you just look at the numbers Eli's clearly inferior to Rivers and Romo.

Bucs_Rule
01-18-2012, 06:52 PM
Eli career compared to Peyton of course not. Eli this year compared to Manning last about the same in regular season. Playoffs much better.

Peyton in 2010

Pct 66.3
Yards 4,700
YPT 6.9
TD 33
INT 17
Rating 91.9

Eli 2011

Pct 61
Yards 4933
Avg 8.4
TD 29
INT 16
Rating 92.9

elway=goat
01-23-2012, 04:20 AM
I would take Eli over Peyton all day. I mean unless its a regular season game, but in the playoffs where ledgends are born, Peyton is one of the most dissapointing players in the history of sports.

Peyton Manning is the Wilt Chamberlain of football, or a more modern example, the Lebron James of the NFL. On the surface this guy has it all, he has the accolaids, he has the measurements, the legacy and thepedigree. But when it matters, he turns into a different guy.

Its funny, even in this thread people come out and say Peyton, unless it matters or the playoffs. That should be the standard in which we measure a player..

I have seen people say, well if Manning had a defense, blah blah. That has been gone over multiple times. If you go back and look at Peyton Mannings 19playoff games, there is not alot of shootouts with Manning coming up short. If fact the majority of the time, the defense is the ones who even keep this choke artist in the games. Yes, if you go look back game to game, you can see Peyton Manning is truly the master of panic, and he is the major reason why they often lose.

Even in the Super Bowl, this guy was terrible, he had the one play where Wayne was left wide open because of a Bears secondary mix up and he still won Super Bowl MVP. The most underserving Super Bowl MVP in history. All he had to do was sit on the sidelines and watch Rex Grossman self destruct.

I would take probably 10 maybe even 15 QB's over Peyton Manning all time, just because he is such a mental midget when it matters most.

EDIT: I would also like to add, Peyton was instrumental in stacking the offensive side of the ball. Maybe they would of had a more respectable defense if they didn't use so many first round picks on offensive players, a lot of the time they didn't really need, just to add more weapons.

Also, if you look at Peytons numbers, you can see that toward the end of the career he went from being putrid to actually having good statistical games, but doing something at the end or in crucial times to remind us, he hasn't changed. Even while watching the Super Bowl against the Saints, I had that glimmer of hope, and thought maybe he had turned the corner. But in the back of my mind, his true form would come out. I just had a smirk when he threw the pick six.. Though that was the Peyton I have come to know.

His choking in the NFL was not some new thing, it wasn't an NFL thing, it was a Peyton thing. Even looking at his Bowl games in College, or against Florida(who he never beat) Peyton throughout his career has shown to either be down right bad, or extremely unlclutch in big games.

You have to look at that in the grand scheme of things when summing up his career. Its a pretty glaring flaw.

Ness
01-23-2012, 04:34 AM
I'd say his postseason success has moved above Peyton's. He's gotten to two Super Bowls now in more impressive fashions and might just win another.

Iamcanadian
01-23-2012, 01:01 PM
Pro football players play for 1 reason, to win SuperBowls, nothing else really matters to them.
Eli like his brother Peyton has won one and now has a shot to win his second, if he does it, he passes his brother's accomplishments and moves above him in the pecking order of QB's. If he doesn't they remain equal.

Rosebud
01-23-2012, 01:05 PM
Pro football players play for 1 reason, to win SuperBowls, nothing else really matters to them.
Eli like his brother Peyton has won one and now has a shot to win his second, if he does it, he passes his brother's accomplishments and moves above him in the pecking order of QB's. If he doesn't they remain equal.

Well that's just not true. Plenty of guys play for the money, many others play because they like making a career out of a game.

A Perfect Score
01-23-2012, 01:07 PM
Pro football players play for 1 reason, to win SuperBowls, nothing else really matters to them.
Eli like his brother Peyton has won one and now has a shot to win his second, if he does it, he passes his brother's accomplishments and moves above him in the pecking order of QB's. If he doesn't they remain equal.

This is absolutely, 100% wrong. Just plain ******* stupid, moronic, and ignorant.

Measuring a QB by the amount of Super Bowl rings they have is absolutely not the appropriate manner to go into it. There are about 9874589374598347598 variables that go into determining whether a QB makes the SB or not. If Billy Cundiff makes that kick yesterday and the Ravens beat the Pats in overtime and go on to win the SB, is Joe Flacco going to be a better QB then Phillip Rivers because he has a ring and Rivers doesn't? Is Trent Dilfer a better QB then Dan Marino because he has a SB ring and Marino doesn't? Get the **** out of here with that stupid ********. Of course it's nice when a player gets a SB ring as a crowning career achievement, and of course you factor in the ability to perform in the clutch as something you want in a QB, but saying that Eli is better then Peyton because he has 2 SBs to Manning's 1 is absolutely ******* moronic and it's just another example of why you're one of the worst posters on these boards.

Iamcanadian
01-23-2012, 01:21 PM
This is absolutely, 100% wrong. Just plain ******* stupid, moronic, and ignorant.

Measuring a QB by the amount of Super Bowl rings they have is absolutely not the appropriate manner to go into it. There are about 9874589374598347598 variables that go into determining whether a QB makes the SB or not. If Billy Cundiff makes that kick yesterday and the Ravens beat the Pats in overtime and go on to win the SB, is Joe Flacco going to be a better QB then Phillip Rivers because he has a ring and Rivers doesn't? Is Trent Dilfer a better QB then Dan Marino because he has a SB ring and Marino doesn't? Get the **** out of here with that stupid ********. Of course it's nice when a player gets a SB ring as a crowning career achievement, and of course you factor in the ability to perform in the clutch as something you want in a QB, but saying that Eli is better then Peyton because he has 2 SBs to Manning's 1 is absolutely ******* moronic and it's just another example of why you're one of the worst posters on these boards.

I know, youy hate the fact that Cameron called a perfect game as your OC and will likely remain as your team's OC when you hate him so much. Too bad I called you out on that one and you just cannot stand not being perfect.
I'll put you on my ignore list since your anger has got the best of you and let you swim in your puddle of hate by yourself.

A Perfect Score
01-23-2012, 01:23 PM
I know, youy hate the fact that Cameron called a perfect game as your OC and will likely remain as your team's OC when you hate him so much. Too bad I called you out on that one and you just cannot stand not being perfect.
I'll put you on my ignore list since your anger has got the best of you and let you swim in your puddle of hate by yourself.

How is this any sort of retort to the statement I made proving that he's a ******* idiot?

Iamcanadian
01-23-2012, 01:23 PM
Well that's just not true. Plenty of guys play for the money, many others play because they like making a career out of a game.

Neither means they don't want to win Super Bowls, I'd bet money that you couldn't find one who wouldn't give their all for one.

MetSox17
01-23-2012, 01:24 PM
No, i fully agree with what APS said. The point you made is ******* stupid. Trent Dilfer/Brad Johnson >>>> Dan Marino. Obviously.

scottyboy
01-23-2012, 01:29 PM
yeah, you can't judge based on just super bowls. they help and are a big factor, but they're not the end all be all. Eli's career isn't close to the numbers peyton's put up. bf51 is selling eli super short, while people comparing his career to peyton's are selling him too high. As of now, yeah, I'd put him a top 5 QB in the league (while peyton could be top 5 all time), who, if he wins this super bowl and continues this play for another 3-5 years, has a good shot at making the hall of fame. He's progressed this year, and really has the last few years.

Rosebud
01-23-2012, 01:31 PM
Neither means they don't want to win Super Bowls, I'd bet money that you couldn't find one who wouldn't give their all for one.

Have we already forgotten Donovan McNabb caring so much about winning the superbowl that he was so hungover that he needed to throw up on the sidelines? Come on now, sure no one doesn't want to win the Super Bowl but clearly not all players care about winning as much and even if they did using titles as the sole means of comparing QBs is moronic.

I love Eli, wouldn't trade him for any other QB in the NFL, but his career won't stack up with Peyton's unless he gets 3 rings and can make this seasons performance the mean performance for the next 5.

comahan
01-23-2012, 01:32 PM
Eli's been awesome this year, but no.

If he takes the year he had this year, and repeats it until the end of his career... then MAYBE.

Sloopy
01-23-2012, 01:42 PM
Peyton is still one of the best all time.

People rip him to hard for his "poor playoff performances" most of his performances have been pretty damn good and the team as a whole has sucked (breaking news, I know)

People want to say that he was throwing to pro bowlers most of his career... blah blah blah... Neither Harrison nor Wayne would be pro bowlers if it wasn't for Manning. There is a reason Harrison didn't make a pro bowl or have a 1,000 yard season until after Manning got there and then his stats jump exponentially during the 99 season.

His defense has pretty much always sucked and was built around his ability to get a lead and maintain it. The D would look much worse than it did if it wasn't for Manning getting them the lead.

With the exception of Edge they haven't really had much of a run game either.

Eli has had absolutely better defenses and running games (for the most part) most of his career. This isn't to knock him but these are facts.

I like Eli and he certainly is coming into his own in this league but this thread is a ******* joke

Iamcanadian
01-23-2012, 02:09 PM
Have we already forgotten Donovan McNabb caring so much about winning the superbowl that he was so hungover that he needed to throw up on the sidelines? Come on now, sure no one doesn't want to win the Super Bowl but clearly not all players care about winning as much and even if they did using titles as the sole means of comparing QBs is moronic.

Players bring up on the sidelines and in the dressing room all the time, it doesn't mean they are hungover, just means their nerves got the best of them before a big game.
I have never heard a veteran player say either while still playing or after he retired that he didn't wish for a Super Bowl ring if he didn't have one. You find me 1 quote from a player still playing or retired who hasn't won a Super Bowl, that he doesn't regret it and I'll eat humble pie.

I love Eli, wouldn't trade him for any other QB in the NFL, but his career won't stack up with Peyton's unless he gets 3 rings and can make this seasons performance the mean performance for the next 5.

I don't agree, we are talking about 2 potential HOF QB's and SB rings is what they play for and IF Eli passes Peyton, he is the winner in my books even if you disagree. Peyton has very pretty stats, perhaps the best of all time, but his playoff record is rather mediocre and I don't buy the story that he played on inferior teams. Remember, Eli is still young and could win 2 or 3 Super Bowls or even more.

Now, I'm not comparing Dilfer to a HOF QB and those who make that argument don't fully grasp what I'm saying, I'm comparing HOF QB's to other HOF QB's not once in a career types when I establish, my list of top QB's.

boknows34
01-23-2012, 02:25 PM
I don't agree, we are talking about 2 potential HOF QB's and SB rings is what they play for and IF Eli passes Peyton, he is the winner in my books even if you disagree. Peyton has very pretty stats, perhaps the best of all time, but his playoff record is rather mediocre and I don't buy the story that he played on inferior teams. Remember, Eli is still young and could win 2 or 3 Super Bowls or even more.

Now, I'm not comparing Dilfer to a HOF QB and those who make that argument don't fully grasp what I'm saying, I'm comparing HOF QB's to other HOF QB's not once in a career types when I establish, my list of top QB's.

When quarterbacking becomes an individual sport then we can start pointing towards Super Bowl rings. But its not and it never will be. Its not like winning Grand Slams in tennis or Majors in golf where you can compare A's achievements to B's.

There are so many factors, variables and lucky/unlucky breaks that go into winning and losing a football game that are totally beyond the control of what a QB does. If Scott Norwood makes his FG in SB 25 does that make Jim Kelly a better QB, even when he had as much influence over whether that kick went through the uprights as Whitney Houston?

Bradshaw and Aikman are both HOF quarterbacks. They have 7 rings between them. Where would you rank them among the all-time greats?

Rosebud
01-23-2012, 02:43 PM
I don't agree, we are talking about 2 potential HOF QB's and SB rings is what they play for and IF Eli passes Peyton, he is the winner in my books even if you disagree. Peyton has very pretty stats, perhaps the best of all time, but his playoff record is rather mediocre and I don't buy the story that he played on inferior teams. Remember, Eli is still young and could win 2 or 3 Super Bowls or even more.

Now, I'm not comparing Dilfer to a HOF QB and those who make that argument don't fully grasp what I'm saying, I'm comparing HOF QB's to other HOF QB's not once in a career types when I establish, my list of top QB's.

Except that quote that you want would contradict what I'm saying. Let me repeat myself. "No one doesn't want to win the Super Bowl but clearly not all players care about winning it as much as some do."

As for your second point it's still a foolish way to compare QBs when what Peyton's asked to do to get the Colts into the playoffs is drastically different from what Eli's been asked to do every season before this one. That's why you can't just compare their playoff performances and say Eli's been the better QB.

Iamcanadian
01-23-2012, 02:55 PM
Except that quote that you want would contradict what I'm saying. Let me repeat myself. "No one doesn't want to win the Super Bowl but clearly not all players care about winning it as much as some do."

As for your second point it's still a foolish way to compare QBs when what Peyton's asked to do to get the Colts into the playoffs is drastically different from what Eli's been asked to do every season before this one. That's why you can't just compare their playoff performances and say Eli's been the better QB.

Well, I think they both have been asked to get their teams to the playoffs and win a Super Bowl every year, I'm pretty sure that is what is expected from QB's even if they go about it in different ways.
Look, that is how I evaluate HOF QB's or potential HOF QB's. I don't expect everybody to follow how I evaluate QB's but I believe from what I hear on the NFL Network that that is how the pros evaluate HOF QB's.
Evaluate them anyway you want, it is OK by me.

A Perfect Score
01-23-2012, 03:02 PM
Well, I think they both have been asked to get their teams to the playoffs and win a Super Bowl every year, I'm pretty sure that is what is expected from QB's even if they go about it in different ways.
Look, that is how I evaluate HOF QB's or potential HOF QB's. I don't expect everybody to follow how I evaluate QB's but I believe from what I hear on the NFL Network that that is how the pros evaluate HOF QB's.
Evaluate them any way you want, it is OK by me.

So you're just intentionally choosing to be stupid and ignorant at this point?

DraftSavant
01-23-2012, 03:26 PM
This topic makes me :D

Best SB matchup ever for an anti-Peyton troll like myself.

Rosebud
01-23-2012, 06:12 PM
Well, I think they both have been asked to get their teams to the playoffs and win a Super Bowl every year, I'm pretty sure that is what is expected from QB's even if they go about it in different ways.
Look, that is how I evaluate HOF QB's or potential HOF QB's. I don't expect everybody to follow how I evaluate QB's but I believe from what I hear on the NFL Network that that is how the pros evaluate HOF QB's.
Evaluate them any way you want, it is OK by me.

Well the way you evaluate QBs is awful.

49ers1984
01-24-2012, 12:22 AM
I don't agree, we are talking about 2 potential HOF QB's and SB rings is what they play for and IF Eli passes Peyton, he is the winner in my books even if you disagree. Peyton has very pretty stats, perhaps the best of all time, but his playoff record is rather mediocre and I don't buy the story that he played on inferior teams. Remember, Eli is still young and could win 2 or 3 Super Bowls or even more.

Now, I'm not comparing Dilfer to a HOF QB and those who make that argument don't fully grasp what I'm saying, I'm comparing HOF QB's to other HOF QB's not once in a career types when I establish, my list of top QB's.

I think people are starting to overrate Eli now. Rarely ever is he talked about a top 4 or 5 QB in the NFl and now if he wins a second Superbowl he is a HOFer? This is the same problem I have with people putting Ben R in the Hall of Fame. Just because you are a top ten 10-15 QB and are on a good team that wins the Superbowl does not make you a Hall of Famer. I know someone gonna mention a player like Terry Bradshaw but players like that were horrible elections based more on team success then the player being a great player.

DraftSavant
01-24-2012, 10:14 AM
I think people are starting to overrate Eli now. Rarely ever is he talked about a top 4 or 5 QB in the NFl and now if he wins a second Superbowl he is a HOFer? This is the same problem I have with people putting Ben R in the Hall of Fame. Just because you are a top ten 10-15 QB and are on a good team that wins the Superbowl does not make you a Hall of Famer. I know someone gonna mention a player like Terry Bradshaw but players like that were horrible elections based more on team success then the player being a great player.

Such an awesome team that they didn't win their division last year and barely won it this year, right?

One of the league's worst teams at running the ball and stopping the opponent on 3rd down. Such an awesome team he's on.

I know, I know. We can't call Eli elite - what would that do to the Rivers fanboys? Now that is a REAL elite QB.

Sloopy
01-24-2012, 10:27 AM
I don't agree, we are talking about 2 potential HOF QB's and SB rings is what they play for and IF Eli passes Peyton, he is the winner in my books even if you disagree. Peyton has very pretty stats, perhaps the best of all time, but his playoff record is rather mediocre and I don't buy the story that he played on inferior teams. Remember, Eli is still young and could win 2 or 3 Super Bowls or even more.

Now, I'm not comparing Dilfer to a HOF QB and those who make that argument don't fully grasp what I'm saying, I'm comparing HOF QB's to other HOF QB's not once in a career types when I establish, my list of top QB's.

This isn't some tall tale here...

have you seen the team this year without him?

Have you seen how abysmal the OL has been during his tenure?

Have you seen how low the defense ranks every year with the exception of two DEs who essentially put up gaudy stat #s by not factoring into any kind of run support?

Have you seen that without him the WR corps is pretty terrible?

Well, I think they both have been asked to get their teams to the playoffs and win a Super Bowl every year, I'm pretty sure that is what is expected from QB's even if they go about it in different ways.

The point being that it is more difficult for a QB to do this with a **** team around him, meanwhile it can be very easy for a **** QB to do it with a good team. See Dilfer, see Bradshaw, see Big Ben (not that they are all **** QBs but you get the point... wel maybe not YOU)

Look, that is how I evaluate HOF QB's or potential HOF QB's. I don't expect everybody to follow how I evaluate QB's but I believe from what I hear on the NFL Network

you've said all that you need to say.


that that is how the pros evaluate HOF QB's.
Evaluate them anyway you want, it is OK by me.

It most certainly is not.

DraftSavant
01-24-2012, 10:39 AM
This isn't some tall tale here...

have you seen the team this year without him?

Have you seen how abysmal the OL has been during his tenure?

Have you seen how low the defense ranks every year with the exception of two DEs who essentially put up gaudy stat #s by not factoring into any kind of run support?

Have you seen that without him the WR corps is pretty terrible?

I've made the point before, but the dropoff this year from the Colts was really no different in terms of win differential as the year the Patriots lost Brady. And, make no mistake, if the Giants lost Eli they'd probably be around 7-8 wins worse, too.

BTW, the o-line in Indy was really good until Tarik Glenn retired.



The point being that it is more difficult for a QB to do this with a **** team around him, meanwhile it can be very easy for a **** QB to do it with a good team. See Dilfer, see Bradshaw, see Big Ben (not that they are all **** QBs but you get the point... wel maybe not YOU)



you've said all that you need to say.




It most certainly is not.

The HOF has actually made it pretty clear that playoff success is their most important criteria for induction. As it should be. ****'s harder in the playoffs. You ball out on the big stage, it's worth more.

When you're comparing two elite players, why should postseason success not be a factor?

I just don't know what more you could ask from Eli. He's got a coach who stresses balance - even when the running game isn't working. He does everything at the LOS - changing runs, protections, pass routes, etc. He's made CLEAR AND CONSISTENT progression every single season in his career. Every year, he comes back and does something else better.

:shrug:

Sloopy
01-24-2012, 10:50 AM
I've made the point before, but the dropoff this year from the Colts was really no different in terms of win differential as the year the Patriots lost Brady. And, make no mistake, if the Giants lost Eli they'd probably be around 7-8 wins worse, too.

I think the tools are their if they brought in a FA for the year. The team would be competitive.

BTW, the o-line in Indy was really good until Tarik Glenn retired.

Glenn and Saturday were about the only bright points on that OL. Peyton making the right protection calls has pretty much saved them (I also want to give credit to Saturday here)


The HOF has actually made it pretty clear that playoff success is their most important criteria for induction. As it should be. ****'s harder in the playoffs. You ball out on the big stage, it's worth more.

I think Pro's as he put it think differently and it certainly isn't the only factor that goes into HoF selection

When you're comparing two elite players, why should postseason success not be a factor?

It should be but you still have to look at context.

I just don't know what more you could ask from Eli. He's got a coach who stresses balance - even when the running game isn't working. He does everything at the LOS - changing runs, protections, pass routes, etc. He's made CLEAR AND CONSISTENT progression every single season in his career. Every year, he comes back and does something else better.

:shrug:

I'm not trying to knock Eli, he is coming into his own, but I think your talking possible HoF QB versus a guy who deserves to be in the conversation of top all time QBs (top 5, top 10, GOAT, take your pick)

Sloopy
01-24-2012, 01:34 PM
Another thought:

I ask those that think SBs are the biggest factor; are you saying that Peyton shouldn't be in the HoF?

If you say he shouldn't, your an idiot and you need not read further.

If you say he should regardless; then does the fact that he doesn't have the SBs yet will be a HoF not speak to his greatness?

Then ask yourself would Eli be in if it weren't for the SBs?

So who is the better QB? I think we all know the answer...

DraftSavant
01-24-2012, 01:41 PM
Another thought:

I ask those that think SBs are the biggest factor; are you saying that Peyton shouldn't be in the HoF?

Strawman. Nobody is making the Trent Dilfer argument. We're saying that when comparing elite players' careers, postseason success absolutely factors in.

If you say he shouldn't, your an idiot and you need not read further.

Nobody is saying that. Peyton's regular season production and consistency has been transcendent.

If you say he should regardless; then does the fact that he doesn't have the SBs yet will be a HoF not speak to his greatness?

Of course it does. Again, nobody is saying that Peyton Manning isn't an all-time great QB.

Then ask yourself would Eli be in if it weren't for the SBs?

Begging the question.

So who is the better QB? I think we all know the answer...

Define "better."

This is a difficult discussion because we cannot judge either's career in it's entirety yet.

DeepThreat
01-24-2012, 01:54 PM
Tom Brady postseason QB rating - 85.5
Eli Manning postseason QB rating - 87.5
Peyton Manning postseason QB rating - 87.6

bearsfan_51
01-24-2012, 02:35 PM
Tom Brady postseason QB rating - 85.5
Eli Manning postseason QB rating - 87.5
Peyton Manning postseason QB rating - 87.6
Vinny Testaverde QB rating- 81.0

boknows34
01-24-2012, 02:46 PM
Tom Brady postseason QB rating - 85.5
Eli Manning postseason QB rating - 87.5
Peyton Manning postseason QB rating - 87.6

Peyton's is 88.4

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00/gamelog/post/

Eli is 87.5 and Brady 87.6 going into the Super Bowl.

DeepThreat
01-24-2012, 02:54 PM
Peyton's is 88.4

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00/gamelog/post/

Eli is 87.5 and Brady 87.6 going into the Super Bowl.

Not sure why I got a different number from http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00_playoffs.htm

BaLLiN
01-24-2012, 05:14 PM
They are probably different because one set is all time and the other is just this season?

49ers1984
01-25-2012, 12:45 AM
Such an awesome team that they didn't win their division last year and barely won it this year, right?

One of the league's worst teams at running the ball and stopping the opponent on 3rd down. Such an awesome team he's on.

I know, I know. We can't call Eli elite - what would that do to the Rivers fanboys? Now that is a REAL elite QB.

Yeah because Eli's 16 interceptions this year and 25 last year really helped his team so much?I guess to you it is all the team Eli was a saint. I never said he was not elite I said he was not a HOFer.

sweetness34
01-25-2012, 11:38 AM
From sheer talent/statistical standpoint Eli isn't on his brother's level. Peyton is arguably the greatest passer of all-time and throughout his tenure in Indianapolis their success as a team has been predicated on the passing game. He's broken passing records and has lit up scoreboards for a decade.

Peyton did have very talented receivers (Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Pollard) and a solid run game, but if their passing game failed the team failed. He never had a dominant defense and one of the few times that side of the ball stepped up in the postseason he won a Super Bowl. The Colts were never a consistently balanced team, which is why they failed so many times in the playoffs.

However, factoring in wins, postseason success, clutch play, etc Eli is on his brother's level and is elite. Eli is a different style of QB. He's an opportunistic player that takes advantage of clutch situations. When his defense puts him in position to score he usually comes through. When his team is trailing and needs a big play he usually comes through. When it's time to put a game away he usually comes through.

Despite Eli's numbers this year I don't hold him in the same league as Brees, Rodgers, Peyton and Brady in terms of pure passers. The Giants started their hot streak at the end of the season when the defense turned a 180. They are dangerous because of their balanced attack in all 3 phases. Granted, Eli didn't have very good OL play this year and his run game was inconsistent.

I don't believe Eli's strength is carrying an offense every week to victory. I believe Eli's strength is taking advantage of big opportunities. He understands what his role is and executes it. He knows that right now his defense is on a roll and he doesn't put his team in bad situations by turning the ball over.

He's a very intelligent QB that knows how to manage a game and pick his spots to attack. I don't believe that saying he's an opportunistic is a shot against him. I believe it's a big compliment. The Giants in 2006 and the Giants this postseason are the true definition of a team. They are balanced and they pick each other up.

When Eli received his big extension a couple years ago I ripped him for not being an elite QB on this board. I said that he wasn't a guy who could carry a team every week and that was my reasoning.

I'm here to eat some crow after what I've seen in the playoffs. I know Giant fans have stood up for him time and time again, but I now understand what they were saying and agree with them.

Eli is an elite QB in his own right. He may be a little different than the big statistical QB's, but that shouldn't be counted against him. When the chips are down and a play needs to be made Eli is a guy you can give the ball to and have confidence that he'll deliver.

Every QB needs help in order to win. We saw what happened to the one-dimensional Packers this year. We've seen what has happened to the Saints. We saw what happened to the 49ers in the playoffs when their offense couldn't make a play in crunch time.

The great teams achieve some sort of balance. It's not always 50/50, but what impresses me about the Giants is that they just find a way to win. On Sunday it was the Special Teams that made two huge plays, one of which lead to the winning field goal.

Eli is a leader and he is a franchise QB. He may not be the most efficient QB and he may not light up a scoreboard, but the guy just wins games. Does he need some help? Sure, but Rodgers and Brees weren't able to carry their teams to victory in the playoffs either. It's a team game and there's no doubt that if I was need of a QB to build around Eli would be on the top of my list.

sweetness34
01-25-2012, 11:40 AM
Yeah because Eli's 16 interceptions this year and 25 last year really helped his team so much?I guess to you it is all the team Eli was a saint. I never said he was not elite I said he was not a HOFer.

It could be argued that the only reason the Giants stayed afloat was because of Eli. Their defense was **** for most of the year, his OL play was inconsistent and he really didn't have a consistent run game to rely on.

Despite all this pressure he managed to keep his INT's down and increase his TD's. He also gave his team a chance to get into the playoffs.

He does have a pretty damn good set of receivers, but Eli was the most valuable piece to that team this year.

A Perfect Score
01-25-2012, 11:58 AM
Eli has arguably the most talented group of receivers in the NFL (Excluding TE, of course). Nicks, Cruz and Manningham is disgustingly good. Not to mention, Bradshaw out of the backfield isn't too shabby either.

Iamcanadian
01-25-2012, 12:32 PM
From sheer talent/statistical standpoint Eli isn't on his brother's level. Peyton is arguably the greatest passer of all-time and throughout his tenure in Indianapolis their success as a team has been predicated on the passing game. He's broken passing records and has lit up scoreboards for a decade.

[QUOTE]This is a myth, the rules today favour the passing game so much that any records set over the last decade in passing are rather meaningless when compared to previous generations. Never mind the fact that they also used to play a 12 game schedule.

Peyton did have very talented receivers (Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Pollard) and a solid run game, but if their passing game failed the team failed. He never had a dominant defense and one of the few times that side of the ball stepped up in the postseason he won a Super Bowl. The Colts were never a consistently balanced team, which is why they failed so many times in the playoffs.

This is another myth, New England, New Orleans, the Giants, and Green Bay were among the worst defenses in the NFL, it is pretty rare when one team can dominate on both sides of the ball.
The Colts stunk this year because Peyton was injured but were already showing a real decline under the HCing of Caldwell so it came as no surprise that they tanked with him as their HC.

Iamcanadian
01-25-2012, 12:35 PM
Eli has arguably the most talented group of receivers in the NFL (Excluding TE, of course). Nicks, Cruz and Manningham is disgustingly good. Not to mention, Bradshaw out of the backfield isn't too shabby either.

Yeah, but are they good because Eli is throwing them the ball and can thread a needle. Tom Brady's WR's have also generally flopped when they go to another team, so is it the QB who makes the receivers or the receivers who make the QB. Just a thought.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-25-2012, 12:53 PM
Eli has arguably the most talented group of receivers in the NFL (Excluding TE, of course). Nicks, Cruz and Manningham is disgustingly good. Not to mention, Bradshaw out of the backfield isn't too shabby either.

We always have turnover though. Funny how now it's disgustingly good, when prior to season it was a big issue. No Steve Smith AND no Kevin Boss meant bad news.

The truth is.. players come and go, but 1 player is constant and that's Eli. Accorsi had a boner for Eli when he scouted him at Ole Miss, and saw how he could make everyone else around him better.

Just look at the turner over offensively.


Burress
Toomer
Smith
Boss
Shockey
Hedgecock
Tiki
Shaun O'hara
Rich S. LG


Now we are back at the super bowl with a totally different Wr corps. We have a lot of change, and basically 1 guy has been the constant fixture. And the biggest thing is for a team that is a running team and likes to control the TOP, we stunk this year. And by stunk, I mean dead last in the NFL. On top of that we had an idiot DC, who would put us behind the 8 ball every game. So now basically the offensively game plan goes out the window and we have to put the whole game on Eli's shoulder.

DraftSavant
01-25-2012, 12:58 PM
We always have turnover though. Funny how now it's disgustingly good, when prior to season it was a big issue. No Steve Smith AND no Kevin Boss meant bad news.

The truth is.. players come and go, but 1 player is constant and that's Eli. Accorsi had a boner for Eli when he scouted him at Ole Miss, and saw how he could make everyone else around him better.

Just look at the turner over offensively.


Burress
Toomer
Smith
Boss
Shockey
Hedgecock
Tiki
Shaun O'hara
Rich S. LG


Now we are back at the super bowl with a totally different Wr corps. We have a lot of change, and basically 1 guy has been the constant fixture. And the biggest thing is for a team that is a running team and likes to control the TOP, we stunk this year. And by stunk, I mean dead last in the NFL. On top of that we had an idiot DC, who would put us behind the 8 ball every game. So now basically the offensively game plan goes out the window and we have to put the whole game on Eli's shoulder.

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

It's funny how perception changes over the course of 6 months.

Sloopy
01-25-2012, 01:01 PM
I know your freaking Canadian but for the love of god learn how to properly use the Quote function....

This is a myth, the rules today favour the passing game so much that any records set over the last decade in passing are rather meaningless when compared to previous generations. Never mind the fact that they also used to play a 12 game schedule.

The fact is that Peyton is doing it on the same level as Brady and Brees of today while Eli is not.

The fact is that he is also doing this with worse receivers than Eli, worse receivers than when Brady broke his records, worse receivers than Brees in his domed stadium (no offense to any of these guys, but the fact is Peyton has done a lot with very little). Before ou go here, don't try and tell me that he had Wayne and Harrison... these guys are nothing without Manning.

This is another myth, New England, New Orleans, the Giants, and Green Bay were among the worst defenses in the NFL, it is pretty rare when one team can dominate on both sides of the ball.
The Colts stunk this year because Peyton was injured but were already showing a real decline under the HCing of Caldwell so it came as no surprise that they tanked with him as their HC.

Your ridiculously wrong... In the years that NE won, they had strong defensive play.

The year NO won they had an extremely opportunistic defense who helped them with turnovers time and again.

The Giants D as stepped it up in these playoffs just as they did in 07 to carry them to the SB and beat one of the most potent passing attacks of all time.

Likewise, the year the Colts won the SB, their D stepped up in the offseason. Even still they are a D built to defend a lead and if Manning wasn't getting them the lead they were a non factor.

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

It's funny how perception changes over the course of 6 months.

Does it matter? They are playing out of their minds right now.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-25-2012, 01:02 PM
Winner winner, chicken dinner.

It's funny how perception changes over the course of 6 months.

What's even funnier is Cruz was on the bubble to make the team. After a sick preseason he went on IR. Then this training camp he was dropping balls, and wasn't impressive by any means. Which means what? We signed Brandon Stokley to be the slot guy and replace Hixon who went on IR. I read somewhere Eli was working with Cruz more and Cruz then had the light bulb turn on and things clicked.

But it wasn't like Cruz came on the scene and all went well. He was very avg this pre season which put him on the bubble. I remember Gilbride screaming at him after running the wrong route. That was kinda funny to see.

But now all of sudden people like our weapons. In essence, to undrafted free agents, who now with Eli, have their game raised.

scottyboy
01-25-2012, 01:06 PM
so the receivers are playing well now, after being a large question mark coming in...don't you think that has just a little bit to say about Eli making them better and not vice versa? I mean come on, Eli carried this team while the D was getting shredded early on, while Hixon and Brandon ******* Stokley were our #3 WR's, Cruz couldn't hang onto a ball to save his life the first 4 weeks or so, Manningham's been banged up and inconsistent. I mean come on. Eli carried this team in the regular season, but you need a complete team to win, which is why the giants are in the super bowl, because the defense is finally playing up to the level of Eli and the offense.

Eli's not on peyton's level because peyton is a top 5 QB to ever play. Those comparisons aren't fair. Eli is still elite and a ******* clutch in the playoffs and because of that, and if he can keep it up another 4-5 years, then he will be seriously considered for the HOF

Sloopy
01-25-2012, 01:11 PM
so the receivers are playing well now, after being a large question mark coming in...don't you think that has just a little bit to say about Eli making them better and not vice versa? I mean come on, Eli carried this team while the D was getting shredded early on, while Hixon and Brandon ******* Stokley were our #3 WR's, Cruz couldn't hang onto a ball to save his life the first 4 weeks or so, Manningham's been banged up and inconsistent. I mean come on. Eli carried this team in the regular season, but you need a complete team to win, which is why the giants are in the super bowl, because the defense is finally playing up to the level of Eli and the offense.

I'll give you that, I mean Cruz does seem to have become a big time player in his own right but having a top QB certainly aids your development.

Eli's not on peyton's level because peyton is a top 5 QB to ever play. Those comparisons aren't fair. Eli is still elite and a ******* clutch in the playoffs and because of that, and if he can keep it up another 4-5 years, then he will be seriously considered for the HOF

I can't agree more. As I said earlier, your comparing a possible HoF QB vs a guy who is arguably a top QB all time (top 10, top 5, GoAT; take your pick).

It isn't a knock on Eli.

Rosebud
01-25-2012, 04:28 PM
This is another myth, New England, New Orleans, the Giants, and Green Bay were among the worst defenses in the NFL, it is pretty rare when one team can dominate on both sides of the ball.
The Colts stunk this year because Peyton was injured but were already showing a real decline under the HCing of Caldwell so it came as no surprise that they tanked with him as their HC.

And of those New England is the only team that's still playing with a god awful defense and even they got an almost mediocre performance against the Ravens in their only test of the playoffs so far. The Saints D cost them a chance to go to the superbowl despite Brees putting up mindfuck numbers, the same for the Packers and the Giants D has actually been good for the past month and a half. No team dominates on both sides of the ball, but balance doesn't need to be 50/50 to help a team. And Peyton only had a D that did it's job once and won a ring with it.

Caldwell does blow monsterous balls, so for once I do agree with you on something. But wouldn't that be another thing Peyton's had to overcome?

Rosebud
01-25-2012, 04:37 PM
The fact is that Peyton is doing it on the same level as Brady and Brees of today while Eli is not.

The fact is that he is also doing this with worse receivers than Eli, worse receivers than when Brady broke his records, worse receivers than Brees in his domed stadium (no offense to any of these guys, but the fact is Peyton has done a lot with very little). Before ou go here, don't try and tell me that he had Wayne and Harrison... these guys are nothing without Manning.

Well I'd disagree on the first since Eli put up numbers just slightly below Brady, Rodgers and Brees in a worse situation than Rodgers and Brees so to me he's at least almost on their level this season.

The second part is what really got me. Harrison and Wayne were excellent receivers that any intelligent and accurate QB that they got to develop chemistry with was going to have a lot of success with. Both guys weren't the biggest or the fastest, but both guys had the speed to make big plays and most importantly, knew how to get open, and were completely reliable, in their hands and their route running, they were always were Peyton expected them to be and they always came down with the ball.

It's kinda funny since they were the inverse of the guys Eli's throwing to, Nicks, Cruz and Manningham, all make mistakes, all drop some passes they shouldn't, but all have the ability to turn any catch into a big play if you let them...anyway saying that Harrison and Wayne would be nothing without Peyton's absurd, in their prime both where excellent wideouts that Peyton was able to utilize amazingly well, but were top 10 guys on their own merits.

EDIT: I agree with you for the most part on Eli v Peyton, just had issue with this little bit.

ElectricEye
01-25-2012, 04:41 PM
I don't have anything substantial to say on the matter, but I desperately wanted to post this picture somewhere.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2558/1327112177393.jpg


So Eli is clearly in the hunt with funny faces as well...even though that one is more creepy than it is funny.

Sloopy
01-25-2012, 05:14 PM
Well I'd disagree on the first since Eli put up numbers just slightly below Brady, Rodgers and Brees in a worse situation than Rodgers and Brees so to me he's at least almost on their level this season.

The second part is what really got me. Harrison and Wayne were excellent receivers that any intelligent and accurate QB that they got to develop chemistry with was going to have a lot of success with. Both guys weren't the biggest or the fastest, but both guys had the speed to make big plays and most importantly, knew how to get open, and were completely reliable, in their hands and their route running, they were always were Peyton expected them to be and they always came down with the ball.

It's kinda funny since they were the inverse of the guys Eli's throwing to, Nicks, Cruz and Manningham, all make mistakes, all drop some passes they shouldn't, but all have the ability to turn any catch into a big play if you let them...anyway saying that Harrison and Wayne would be nothing without Peyton's absurd, in their prime both where excellent wideouts that Peyton was able to utilize amazingly well, but were top 10 guys on their own merits.

EDIT: I agree with you for the most part on Eli v Peyton, just had issue with this little bit.

IMO there is a reason that Harrison never had a 1,000 yard season or pro bowl appearance until Peyton got there. After Peyton got there he started putting up eye popping numbers, more than doubling his previous years production in Peyton's second year.

Meanwhile, Wayne's production severely dropped off this year without Peyton. I know he had Painter throwing to him etc. but elite receivers maintain production regardless of QB play.

It's just my opinion, but I think that they would have had less stellar careers without Manning by a long shot.

Rosebud
01-25-2012, 08:34 PM
IMO there is a reason that Harrison never had a 1,000 yard season or pro bowl appearance until Peyton got there. After Peyton got there he started putting up eye popping numbers, more than doubling his previous years production in Peyton's second year.

Meanwhile, Wayne's production severely dropped off this year without Peyton. I know he had Painter throwing to him etc. but elite receivers maintain production regardless of QB play.

It's just my opinion, but I think that they would have had less stellar careers without Manning by a long shot.

Harrison only played 12 games his third season and had he played 16 would've been on pace for 1034 yards, 79 catches with a ypc on par with what he put in some of his prime years. Marvin's a receiver that succeed on how skilled he was, not on his natural talent, so it makes sense that it took him til his 3rd season to really break out the way receivers used to.

And Wayne may not be an elite receiver like Megatron, who's natural talent lets him produce regardless of the QB, but his skills are great for an accurate and intelligent QB to utilize. Without someone who can read the D, find him and get him the ball he's not going to produce, but most receivers are like that unless they're insanely talented. Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt also didn't produce as much without Trent Green, Kurt Warner or Marc Bulger during his one good season. It's just what happens to skilled receivers who aren't great natural talents with **** QBs.

Of course they wouldn't have produced as much without Peyton, but with a good QB I think both Wayne and Harrison would still have produced.

Sloopy
01-25-2012, 09:23 PM
Harrison only played 12 games his third season and had he played 16 would've been on pace for 1034 yards, 79 catches with a ypc on par with what he put in some of his prime years. Marvin's a receiver that succeed on how skilled he was, not on his natural talent, so it makes sense that it took him til his 3rd season to really break out the way receivers used to.

And Wayne may not be an elite receiver like Megatron, who's natural talent lets him produce regardless of the QB, but his skills are great for an accurate and intelligent QB to utilize. Without someone who can read the D, find him and get him the ball he's not going to produce, but most receivers are like that unless they're insanely talented. Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt also didn't produce as much without Trent Green, Kurt Warner or Marc Bulger during his one good season. It's just what happens to skilled receivers who aren't great natural talents with **** QBs.

Of course they wouldn't have produced as much without Peyton, but with a good QB I think both Wayne and Harrison would still have produced.

Oh I don't doubt they would have produced and had decent careers, but Manning elevated them. Even to a point where earlier this season IIRC some were referring to Wayne as one of the best receivers in the game.

I don't think he gets the same level of recognition without Manning. Same probably goes for Harrison.

I will say that Eli too probably elevates some of the players around him.

Rosebud
01-26-2012, 01:17 AM
Oh I don't doubt they would have produced and had decent careers, but Manning elevated them. Even to a point where earlier this season IIRC some were referring to Wayne as one of the best receivers in the game.

I don't think he gets the same level of recognition without Manning. Same probably goes for Harrison.

I will say that Eli too probably elevates some of the players around him.

All great QBs elevate their WRs no matter how good they are. Even great guys like Fitz and Megatron put up better numbers with a good QB than with a bad one.

Sloopy
01-26-2012, 09:46 AM
All great QBs elevate their WRs no matter how good they are. Even great guys like Fitz and Megatron put up better numbers with a good QB than with a bad one.

I wouldn't put Harrison and Wayne on the same level as Fitz or Megatron though and they were putting up comparable #'s to those guys during their time with Peyton.

ViperVisor
10-10-2013, 10:24 PM
Cooper Manning ?

Hugo Manning ?

boknows34
10-10-2013, 10:38 PM
Cooper Manning ?

Hugo Manning ?

Chelsea/Bradley Manning?

WCH
10-11-2013, 08:00 AM
I think there are maybe 10 QBs in NFL history who you would put on Peyton Manning's level, and you'd probably be reaching once you got outside of the top 5.

SchizophrenicBatman
10-11-2013, 09:23 AM
Eli is elite. Just like Peyton he is nearly on track to set an unprecedented passing record this season.

In INTs

Cardinal96
10-11-2013, 09:32 AM
I love these old threads. It is amaxing that under two years ago this could have been a valid discussion topic. If someone posts this today, they get laughed out of the room.

abaddon41_80
10-11-2013, 10:25 AM
I love these old threads. It is amaxing that under two years ago this could have been a valid discussion topic. If someone posts this today, they get laughed out of the room.

Most people would have laughed them out of the room back then, too. Only delusional Giants fans and people who put too much into da ringz ever thought Eli was even close to Peyton.

cgf (Rosebud)
10-11-2013, 10:51 AM
Most people would have laughed them out of the room back then, too. Only delusional Giants fans and people who put too much into da ringz ever thought Eli was even close to Peyton.

Good thing you've read through more than just the thread title to see that "delusional giants fans" weren't actually arguing Eli was as good as Peyton...although now we'd just settle for him being as good as Shaun Hill...

abaddon41_80
10-11-2013, 12:28 PM
Good thing you've read through more than just the thread title to see that "delusional giants fans" weren't actually arguing Eli was as good as Peyton...although now we'd just settle for him being as good as Shaun Hill...

I read through the thread. I never said anything about Giants fans here thinking that. My statement was that the only people who think that are delusional Giants fans. All people who think Eli is as good as Peyton are Giants fans but not all Giants fans think Eli is as good as Peyton. Kind of like all bleeps are bloops but all bloops aren't bleeps.

The people here are generally pretty unbiased and objective, except when it comes to top 20 QB Shaun Hill for some reason.

bearsfan_51
10-11-2013, 12:37 PM
Also, to the person that mentioned Eli in the HOF. I suppose he has a chance if he wins a few more rings (Troy Aikman made it on the first ballot after all), but only because people give quarterbacks way too much credit for wins and losses.

Eli is a pretty good quarterback who is having an excellent season.

Career wise?

-He's not even close to the Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, Brees level.
-He's not at Big Ben's level, or even Philip Rivers' for that matter.
-I'd put him on that next level with Jay Culter, Tony Romo, Matt Schaub, and Matt Ryan (and, in my opinion, the lesser of all of those)

He just throws too many picks, and isn't exactly overwhelmingly in any other area to make up for it. He's not terribly efficient and doesn't complete enough long passes to make up for his lack of short-field accuracy. He is, and has always been, extremely overrated because of his name and where he plays.
BF for the win.

PoopSandwich
10-11-2013, 12:42 PM
BF for the win.

He's overrated but when he is on he is absolutely ridiculous.

D-Unit
10-11-2013, 12:47 PM
Which one has the hotter wife?

cgf (Rosebud)
10-11-2013, 01:46 PM
BF for the win.

He'll still be a HOFer, that much is already determined. Even if he doesn't win a third ring.

bearsfan_51
10-11-2013, 02:45 PM
He'll still be a HOFer, that much is already determined. Even if he doesn't win a third ring.
I never said he wouldn't, but he won't really deserve it. Since the 1970s there have been 14 guys make the HOF whose careers were primarily between 1970-2000 (add another one once Favre makes it). That evens out to 5 per decade. Is there any argument to be made that Eli is a top 5 QB over the course of his career? Hell no. He'll get in because the media loves Superbowls and attributes them to quarterbacks. It is what it is, but everyone will know why he's there.

D-Unit
10-11-2013, 02:47 PM
I never said he wouldn't, but he won't really deserve it. Since the 1970s there have been 14 guys make the HOF whose careers were primarily between 1970-2000 (add another one once Favre makes it). That evens out to 5 per decade. Is there any argument to be made that Eli is a top 5 QB over the course of his career? Hell no. He'll get in because the media loves Superbowls and attributes them to quarterbacks. It is what it is, but everyone will know why he's there.
Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner!

D-Unit
10-11-2013, 02:48 PM
He'll still be a HOFer, that much is already determined. Even if he doesn't win a third ring.
Does Big Ben get into the Hall using the the 2 SB ring qualification?

bearsfan_51
10-11-2013, 02:49 PM
Big Ben definitely gets in if Eli gets in. I don't see how you could argue for Eli but not Ben unless you're bringing personal issues into the equation.

FUNBUNCHER
10-11-2013, 02:55 PM
Big Ben is a STEELERS QB with two rings. He's a lock.

I think some people unintentionally are asking if guys like Eli and Roethlisberger 1st ballot HOFers?? Maybe not, but they both won't wait a decade to get in either.

IMO the only lock 1st ballot HOF QBs playing in the game today are Rodgers/Brady/Peyton/Brees.

bearsfan_51
10-11-2013, 03:00 PM
Rodgers is most definitely not a lock for 1st ballot HOF. Especially considering he's only been a starting QB for six seasons.

He'll very very likely make it, but that's assuming he starts at least another 4-6 seasons and does rather well.

cgf (Rosebud)
10-11-2013, 03:10 PM
Does Big Ben get into the Hall using the the 2 SB ring qualification?

Of course he does.

Caulibflower
10-11-2013, 03:17 PM
Big Ben is a STEELERS QB with two rings. He's a lock.

I think some people unintentionally are asking if guys like Eli and Roethlisberger 1st ballot HOFers?? Maybe not, but they both won't wait a decade to get in either.

IMO the only lock 1st ballot HOF QBs playing in the game today are Rodgers/Brady/Peyton/Brees.

I wouldn't say Rodgers or Brees are first ballot locks quite yet. Passing stats are exploding so fast that by the time they retire, their all-time great years are going to look a little less spectacular. They're obviously the league's defining players at quarterback, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see them go on the second or third year after they retire.

D-Unit
10-11-2013, 03:22 PM
I think the problem is that when people think about the best QBs of this era, Eli and Big Ben just don't pop in our heads on first thought.

When Eli gets in, David Tyree should be his guest of honor.

If the world smartens up in the future and realizes that their teams won SBs and not them alone, then I don't think either get in.

Those were SB caliber DEFENSES that won those SBs. Eli and Big Ben were bus drivers.

FUNBUNCHER
10-11-2013, 03:39 PM
I think the problem is that when people think about the best QBs of this era, Eli and Big Ben just don't pop in our heads on first thought.

When Eli gets in, David Tyree should be his guest of honor.

If the world smartens up in the future and realizes that their teams won SBs and not them alone, then I don't think either get in.

Those were SB caliber DEFENSES that won those SBs. Eli and Big Ben were bus drivers.

I am NOT a Giants fan in the least, but I did watch every game of both Eli's SB runs. He was not a 'bus driver'. If Eli was playing now like he did during those SB runs, the Giants would be undefeated this season.

In fact there's only a handful of QBs in today's game who IMO would have won a SB with those two Giants' teams.

People love to write off David Tyree's catch as fantastical luck beyond luck, but we all love to forget what it took for Eli to even get that pass off, on target. That pass should have been caught in both hands by Tyree. To be able to wedge it against his helmet with one hand between two defenders had more to do with the accuracy of the throw and less with the WR.

If ELi plays five more years his total yardage and TD numbers will probably be top 10.
Being a Manning may have helped him get drafted 1/1, but everything he's accomplished after that is all on Eli.

bearsfan_51
10-11-2013, 05:56 PM
I wouldn't say Rodgers or Brees are first ballot locks quite yet. Passing stats are exploding so fast that by the time they retire, their all-time great years are going to look a little less spectacular. They're obviously the league's defining players at quarterback, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see them go on the second or third year after they retire.
Brees is an absolute first-ballot lock.

6th all time in passing yards (will be 5th very shortly behind Favre, Manning, Marino, and Elway)

6th all-time in passing TDs (behind Favre, Manning, Marino, Tarkenton, and Brady)

Brady, Manning, and Brees are three of the most prolific passers of all-time. Brees gets overshadowed a bit because of how great Brady and Manning are, but he's an all-time great.

bearsfan_51
10-11-2013, 06:02 PM
I think the problem is that when people think about the best QBs of this era, Eli and Big Ben just don't pop in our heads on first thought.
To be fair, I'm not sure who does past the top 4 of Manning, Brady, Brees and Rodgers. In terms of career accomplishments it's

Manning-Brady




Brees




Rodgers









Everyone else


Assuming that at least 5 QBs in the last 10 years get in the HOF (and probably at least a few more than that given how passing has expanded) I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to say that Eli and Big Ben would be the next two on that list, and I'm one of the biggest Eli haters around.

falloutboy14
10-11-2013, 06:29 PM
Big Ben is a STEELERS QB with two rings. He's a lock.

So Charlie Batch is in as well then :banana:

LonghornsLegend
10-12-2013, 03:27 AM
What I've noticed for QB's is that if you win a SB any bad regular season play from that point on is always easily dismissed. No matter what. Mostly it's just overlooked. Yet if you haven't won a SB yet and you have a bad regular season stretch they get roasted and you hear about it consistently.

Ness
10-12-2013, 04:04 AM
What I've noticed for QB's is that if you win a SB any bad regular season play from that point on is always easily dismissed. No matter what. Mostly it's just overlooked. Yet if you haven't won a SB yet and you have a bad regular season stretch they get roasted and you hear about it consistently.

I don't think people's feelings have changed towards Flacco. And folks were calling Kurt Warner finished after he struggled in New York. So it depends who it is.

SchizophrenicBatman
10-12-2013, 01:42 PM
I am NOT a Giants fan in the least, but I did watch every game of both Eli's SB runs. He was not a 'bus driver'. If Eli was playing now like he did during those SB runs, the Giants would be undefeated this season.

In fact there's only a handful of QBs in today's game who IMO would have won a SB with those two Giants' teams.

People love to write off David Tyree's catch as fantastical luck beyond luck, but we all love to forget what it took for Eli to even get that pass off, on target. That pass should have been caught in both hands by Tyree. To be able to wedge it against his helmet with one hand between two defenders had more to do with the accuracy of the throw and less with the WR.

If ELi plays five more years his total yardage and TD numbers will probably be top 10.
Being a Manning may have helped him get drafted 1/1, but everything he's accomplished after that is all on Eli.

and five years later he'll be down to 15th

WCH
10-12-2013, 02:51 PM
Rodgers is most definitely not a lock for 1st ballot HOF. Especially considering he's only been a starting QB for six seasons.

He'll very very likely make it, but that's assuming he starts at least another 4-6 seasons and does rather well.

I think Rodgers retires if he has one more concussion. From the very beginning of his career, he's made it clear that football is an important part of his life, but it's not the most important part of his life.

bearsfan_51
10-12-2013, 03:00 PM
Here are the guys I think make the HOF if they retired today:

-Manning, Brady, Brees (obvi)
-Champ Bailey
-Tony Gonzalez
-Charles Woodson
-Reggie Wayne
-Ed Reed
-Julius Peppers (I expect some pushback here because Peppers has had a bad reputation and has never really been on a great team, but he's inarguably had a great career if you just look at the numbers)
-Eli, Big Ben, and ARod...maybe? I dunno. Like I said, I still think ARod needs another few seasons to build more of a career resume.

Saints-Tigers
10-12-2013, 03:25 PM
What I've noticed for QB's is that if you win a SB any bad regular season play from that point on is always easily dismissed. No matter what. Mostly it's just overlooked. Yet if you haven't won a SB yet and you have a bad regular season stretch they get roasted and you hear about it consistently.


Yup. And if you pull a choke job, it's not called a choke job, because if you won a superbowl... you don't choke... except Peyton.

boknows34
10-12-2013, 06:34 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BWQ-mvXCQAAxeF-.jpg