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View Full Version : Michael Brockers, DT, LSU


SenorGato
01-17-2012, 12:20 PM
Um, can I get a hell yes?

As a Jets fan I had no intention of thinking about DL early this year. OLB? Yes. Even more general, pass rusher? Yes. A true 3-4 DL? Well, no one seemed appealing enough.

Then I heard that this guy declared for the draft. To that all I have to say is that it now sucks that DL is probably not a real option. Redshirt sophomore who stands 6'6" and weights 305 with great natural athleticism and power. We're basically talking a guy with a Richard Seymour/Kevin Williams/Stroud/Henderson/Haynesworth frame and possibly even upside...He's not as accomplished as most of those guys were coming out of school, but he's not unaccomplished either. He was a damn good player in his 14 career starts and ~26 career games...

This is a name I'll be following the rest of the draft season. He's probably the first DT off the board. I heard that one of the guys paid to do draft writing has already compared him to Seymour...I haven't seen a DT with OT height and length come out with a first round grade at DT in a while...Hell the closest since Kevin Williams was drafted IMO has been Vince Oghobaase, who's body just fell apart during his senior year. This development in the draft is pretty exciting...Sucks that there's almost zero chance the Jets take him at 16...he probably doesn't make it there for one...I've always wanted to imitate the Seymour/Wilfork/Warren line of the Pats (and I spent the 2000's Jeally of the teams that got anyone from that crop of DTs I listed up there)...Brockers/DeVito-Ellis/Wilkerson would be close enough for me.

Iamcanadian
01-17-2012, 12:27 PM
He's not getting a whole lot of love on NFL.com but I think it is because nobody there thought he would declare and they just haven't looked at his tape just yet.

I strongly believe this prospect will take a quantum leap up draft boards as the post season progresses with top 10 or even top 5 talent. I think he will dominate at the Combine where he will establish his place on draft boards.

ElectricEye
01-17-2012, 12:54 PM
If I could have any player in the draft for the Patriots, I would probably pick Brockers. I still need to do some more work on him, but there's very, very little to dislike about his physical skillset and what I've seen so far. This is what a top 3-4 DE prospect is supposed to look and play like.

CashmoneyDrew
01-17-2012, 02:28 PM
Drafted him to the Cowboys in the forum mock to play end in their 3-4. :)

descendency
01-17-2012, 04:29 PM
I hope he fails at the combine and is available for NE to draft... He would be a monster addition to the line. I'd even trade both of the firsts to get him (ahead of the Jets).

raynman
01-19-2012, 11:37 AM
i'm thinking panthers at the 8/9 spot.

best DT in the draft, imo.

most upside for sure.

Lil Quip
01-19-2012, 11:47 AM
Not sure who was advising him on the draft, but it seemed like a great idea.

I don't think the advisory board gave him a great review.

I agree it looks like he will meteor up mocks. 3-4's have proliferated recently, so tons of landing spots. Even if he is ranked as the second 3-4 E 4-3 T, that still means at least the first. I just don't see the other people around him to be ahead of him.

Shere Khan
01-19-2012, 12:25 PM
Not sure who was advising him on the draft, but it seemed like a great idea.

I don't think the advisory board gave him a great review.

I agree it looks like he will meteor up mocks. 3-4's have proliferated recently, so tons of landing spots. Even if he is ranked as the second 3-4 E 4-3 T, that still means at least the first. I just don't see the other people around him to be ahead of him.

Meteor UP, eh?

Interesting thought......nevermind me, I digress.

villagewarrior
01-19-2012, 12:28 PM
LSU defensive lineman? He is destined for the Chiefs.

Lil Quip
01-19-2012, 02:34 PM
Meteor UP, eh?

Interesting thought......nevermind me, I digress.

Haha well I guess meteors would have the tendency rocket across the sky. Meteoring across would be like going to different positions...

Razor
01-19-2012, 02:56 PM
If I could have any player in the draft for the Patriots, I would probably pick Brockers. I still need to do some more work on him, but there's very, very little to dislike about his physical skillset and what I've seen so far. This is what a top 3-4 DE prospect is supposed to look and play like.

I agree 100%. I'm in a GM mock draft on another site where I just traded my way into the top 5 to make sure I got him since the Panthers supposedly were making a move for him. I think he's the best 5-tech prospect I can remember for some time now. He really has the potential to become Richard Seymour v. 2. Best DL in the draft imo.

Macarthur
01-19-2012, 02:56 PM
He wont last past 10, IMO.

D-Unit
01-20-2012, 01:12 AM
Drafted him to the Cowboys in the forum mock to play end in their 3-4. :)
You are a good man.

J255979-11nine
02-29-2012, 09:17 AM
40 yd dash: 5.36
Bench press: 19 reps
Vert jump: 26.5 inch
Broad jump: 105 inch
3 cone: 7.46
20 yd: 4.81

There probably wasn't a prospect I was more disappointed in after this weekend. How much of it can you attribute to his pre-combine weight gain(15lbs) and does it affect his draft stock in the slightest?

bitonti
02-29-2012, 09:51 AM
he's gone from top 10 to late first. I don't see the appeal of this player if he doesn't have rare production and he doesn't have rare physical gifts, what are you drafting him for? Size? He might be a nose tackle or other such gap clogger in the 3-4? as was noted LSU Defensive linemen is a problem legacy.

K Train
02-29-2012, 10:06 AM
i think he woulda been better off staying a year and tightening up his game if he couldnt blow the combine away

toonsterwu
02-29-2012, 10:29 AM
My hunch is that Brockers won't fall that much. His film is fine. The thing is, he's not a 3-technique. I'm not even all that sure he's a 0, but what I think he is is a good 5-technique, and I think the film at LSU shows that. The guy that came to mind for me was Chris Canty when he was a 5-technique (and it's easy to forget now, for some, but Canty was fairly solid to good as a 5-technique).

Now, the flip side issue is that I don't see many teams in that top 10-12 that might draft him as a 5-technique that can kick inside on passing downs. There are certainly enough creative defensive minds out there (Ron Rivera comes to mind, Jeff Fisher could probably utilize him, but obviously, not at 2) that there are ways to work around his limitations, as I just don't see him as a good enough pass rusher to slot him as a 3. But I still don't see him slipping, say, out of the mid-first. He's too talented. That said, only time will tell.

Th30ry
02-29-2012, 10:38 AM
It's really tough to see him going that high after that poor of a workout, he's going to need a monster pro day to make his stock rise back up. I'm not saying push him out of the first round, but when I watch him, what is it that makes him special enough to be a first round pick? Basically it's potential, and size. Some teams love to draft pure potential, others shy away from it. For me if I was in the top half of the first round, I'd have to look for something that felt more solid.

Someone may gamble and pay off, but when you're picking in the top 15, you've got more than 1 hole to fill that's for sure. So maybe take your shot with a less 'valuable' position with a player who can step in and give you more of a 'sure thing' (if there ever is such a thing in the NFL draft)

SenorGato
02-29-2012, 11:41 AM
he's gone from top 10 to late first. I don't see the appeal of this player if he doesn't have rare production and he doesn't have rare physical gifts, what are you drafting him for? Size? He might be a nose tackle or other such gap clogger in the 3-4? as was noted LSU Defensive linemen is a problem legacy.

I expected he needed a shyteton of coaching after a while, but now I expect he'll be around at 16 to get that coaching. He's got huge upside but he's less productive and experienced than even the worst of those great 6'6 300+ DT prospects that came out in the early-mid 2000's.

I think he needs to end up with one of the teams with great DL coaches and defensive reputations. Jets...Steelers...Ravens...Giants...Pats (they're probably trying to find it again)...etc.

Richard Seymour/Kevin Williams/John Henderson/Marcus Stroud EVEN Albert Haynesworth he is not...The Seymuor comp was always ridiculous anyway. Hopefully he loses some weight for his pro day and tests better.

descendency
02-29-2012, 01:26 PM
I've seen numerous (respectable) sites that have the DTs ranked:

1. Poe
2. Cox
3. Still
4. Brockers

Cox is shooting up boards and makes more sense for Carolina than Brockers. So does Poe. KC isn't going to be interested in another 5 tech. The Jets might be. I personally think Cox is a better fit in Dallas (though, would they draft a DE that high?)

I get a feeling that Brockers is probably still top 16, but I think a lot of people are under-rating how many DTs will go top 16.

killxswitch
02-29-2012, 01:38 PM
I guess I just don't see what is so great about him other than his massive size.

San Diego Chicken
02-29-2012, 03:09 PM
He's just not a very good pass rusher. I don't know, he seems like a guy that will probably be a serviceable 5 tech and nothing more. Nobody to get really excited about.

RaiderNation
02-29-2012, 05:30 PM
Brockers should still go somewhere in the top 15, but his stock has slid some. Not a great combine performance and will be a developmental prospect with big upside.

Brown Leader
02-29-2012, 06:24 PM
I don't really get why he was considered top ten in the first place. I did my little amateur scouting on him and wasn't impressed at all. Seemed to me Jarvis Jenkins from last year was a much better 5tech prospect. I figured the hype was that he was a RS So and so had huge upside. Josh Norris wrote a nice post combine bit about him that kind of hits the nail on the head. Imo he's become scarier to draft in the first round then Poe.

keylime_5
02-29-2012, 06:37 PM
I could see Brockers dropping. There are a lot of DTs with comparable upside who are safer and had incredible workouts and fine careers. Of course by passing on Brockers you would take a risk that you pass on the next Henderson or Seymour - but at the same time Dontari Poe has incredible, Ngata-esque upside, Fletcher Cox is perfect for a 3 tech DT this year (I could see him shooting up into being a top 12 pick), Devon Still was the best DT in the nation last year at Penn State even if he was a bit inconsistent. Brockers had terrible numbers at the combine, wasn't a productive pass rusher at LSU, and right now looks like a guy who either plays 5 tech or he plays over the center and guard in a 4 man front instead of 3 tech.

I'm not sure what his stock would do, I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was the odd man out in the top 15 picks DT pecking order - but all of those guys will go high b/c good DTs are always in high demand.

RaiderNation
03-07-2012, 02:03 AM
Any chance Brockers could see time as a NT? He isn't a devleoped pass rusher, and came into the combine heavier than expected at 320+lbs. Could a team like Pittsburgh target him if they lose out on Poe?

niel89
03-07-2012, 03:00 AM
Isn't he a little to tall to be a 34 NT? I feel like it would be hard to maintain leverage and double teams at that height.

Razor
03-07-2012, 03:05 AM
Isn't he a little to tall to be a 34 NT? I feel like it would be hard to maintain leverage and double teams at that height.

Yup... I'd say that Brockers' best fit is as a 3-4 DE. He can play 1-tech or 3-tech as well depending on the scheme, but I think he'd have a tough time playing there in the NFL.

duesouth
03-07-2012, 04:34 AM
Yup... I'd say that Brockers' best fit is as a 3-4 DE. He can play 1-tech or 3-tech as well depending on the scheme, but I think he'd have a tough time playing there in the NFL.

I agree - with those long arms I'm sure the two gap teams would love to get a hold of him.

KaneMarko
03-19-2012, 02:52 PM
The Chiefs are in a situation where Glenn Dorsey is going into a contract year and it's debatable whether or not he's ideal as a 2-gapping 5 technique in the Fairbanks 3-4. Tyson Jackson's cap number skyrockets to about $15 million after next season.

Would the Chiefs be totally insane to take Michael Brockers at #11 as a potential replacement for either Jackson or Dorsey since one or both of them might not be on the team after next season?

killxswitch
03-19-2012, 02:54 PM
The Chiefs are in a situation where Glenn Dorsey is going into a contract year and it's debatable whether or not he's ideal as a 2-gapping 5 technique in the Fairbanks 3-4. Tyson Jackson's cap number skyrockets to about $15 million after next season.

Would the Chiefs be totally insane to take Michael Brockers at #11 as a potential replacement for either Jackson or Dorsey since one or both of them might not be on the team after next season?

It would be insane for anybody to take Brockers that early because he's not that good.

KaneMarko
03-19-2012, 03:06 PM
It would be insane for anybody to take Brockers that early because he's not that good.

Fair enough. I had him pegged as a top 15 pick. About where is he projected to go?

Also note, this is the same Scott Pioli that took Tyson Jackson WAY earlier than most thought he'd go when he took him #3 over all.

killxswitch
03-19-2012, 03:11 PM
Fair enough. I had him pegged as a top 15 pick. About where is he projected to go?

Also note, this is the same Scott Pioli that took Tyson Jackson WAY earlier than most thought he'd go when he took him #3 over all.

No, you're not alone. I just don't personally see what is so great about him. I think the Chiefs would be better off looking at another position like NT (Poe), but I am no Chiefs expert obviously.

KaneMarko
03-19-2012, 03:16 PM
No, you're not alone. I just don't personally see what is so great about him. I think the Chiefs would be better off looking at another position like NT (Poe), but I am no Chiefs expert obviously.

Ultimately who knows with Pioli. I've whiffed big time trying to predict what he'd do in the first round since he got here. I didn't see him reaching for Jackson his first year, didn't see him taking a safety 5th overall the next and didn't even see him taking Baldwin last year. So, ultimately, who knows.

Just based on his history, I thought Brockers seemed like someone he'd take at that spot. But, as mentioned, I've been wrong before trying to predict him.

duesouth
03-19-2012, 03:22 PM
The Chiefs are in a situation where Glenn Dorsey is going into a contract year and it's debatable whether or not he's ideal as a 2-gapping 5 technique in the Fairbanks 3-4. Tyson Jackson's cap number skyrockets to about $15 million after next season.

Would the Chiefs be totally insane to take Michael Brockers at #11 as a potential replacement for either Jackson or Dorsey since one or both of them might not be on the team after next season?

They've invested a lot into the position, so it wouldn't be out of the question - he can play DT when they use 4 man fronts as well. He's a gamble though - if I was a GM I would have liked him to have stayed another year (although from his point of view, he's not going to turn down 1st round money and the way the cap is now - the quicker you get to your 2nd contract the better - let's just hope he does and isn't a bust!).

bitonti
03-19-2012, 04:20 PM
I could see a team like the Eagles take a guy like Brockers to gap clog. But would they take him over Cox? Brockers just doesn't have any production. He's got 2 career sacks. That's not good.


as for the jets I dont see it.

their starting DL is Devito - Pouha - Wilkinson. Are they drafting Brockers to replace Devito? Why? It's a marginal upgrade at best.

they also have decent (possible starter quality) depth like Dixon, Pitoitua, and Ellis.

DeepThreat
03-19-2012, 04:50 PM
I could see a team like the Eagles take a guy like Brockers to gap clog. But would they take him over Cox? Brockers just doesn't have any production. He's got 2 career sacks. That's not good.


I really don't see Brockers getting drafted into a 4-3 scheme because he isn't better than Cox there. Brockers's value is much higher in a 3-4, but he could still drop a bit further than he should.

vidae
03-19-2012, 05:10 PM
If the Chiefs get rid of TJax or Dorsey (which is being talked about all over KC right now) I could see the Chiefs taking Brockers, and I wouldn't necessarily hate the move, I just think we have bigger needs elsewhere. I'd like to see Bailey get a shot to start this year anyway.

87Canes
03-19-2012, 10:00 PM
This kid has great size but why did he only produce last season? He technically has the size to be a 5 tech in a 3-4 but I still think his best fit is as a 3 tech in a 4-3. Keep that approach of playing towards his strengths...

I do think this kid has shot up boards because of the lack of DT depth, I'd still take Poe over any of the other 1st rd DT talents.

87Canes
03-19-2012, 10:04 PM
If the Chiefs get rid of TJax or Dorsey (which is being talked about all over KC right now) I could see the Chiefs taking Brockers, and I wouldn't necessarily hate the move, I just think we have bigger needs elsewhere. I'd like to see Bailey get a shot to start this year anyway.

What??? Do you live in KC??? I do and have yet to hear anything on this. Why would we get rid of the 2 3-4 DE's ranked #1 and #2 in tackles?

People dont pay attention to the fact that Dorsey has overachieved in his current role as he was only suppose to be a 3 tech in a 4-3. Tyson Jackson had a solid year and although he will never live up to his 3rd pick hype (as no 3-4 DE will ever) but our DE rotation is set with Dorsey, Jackson, Bailey, etc....

KaneMarko
03-20-2012, 08:20 AM
What??? Do you live in KC??? I do and have yet to hear anything on this. Why would we get rid of the 2 3-4 DE's ranked #1 and #2 in tackles?

People dont pay attention to the fact that Dorsey has overachieved in his current role as he was only suppose to be a 3 tech in a 4-3. Tyson Jackson had a solid year and although he will never live up to his 3rd pick hype (as no 3-4 DE will ever) but our DE rotation is set with Dorsey, Jackson, Bailey, etc....

The problem with Jackson and Dorsey isn't, necessarily, their play (although there are still some issues there) but their pay. After this coming season Branden Albert and Glenn Dorsey will be UFAs. And Tyson Jackson's cap number skyrockets to $15 million. Albert being a very good LT in a league that covets left tackles is going to be expensive to resign. And the Chiefs almost have to re-sign him. That leaves questions with Dorsey and Jackson. Dorsey will be going into that coveted 2nd contract negotiation and is probably going to want something big. And as mentioned, Jackson's cap number skyrockets after next season. Having said all that, it's not hard to imagine at least one, maybe even 2, of the 3 I mentioned not being brought back due to financial reasons. That's why there are concerns there and questions about the long term futures of Dorsey and Jackson with the Chiefs.

killxswitch
03-20-2012, 08:24 AM
Does the Dorsey/TJax situation in KC support or defeat the notion that 3-4 DEs should be taken early and given big contracts?

KaneMarko
03-20-2012, 08:58 AM
Does the Dorsey/TJax situation in KC support or defeat the notion that 3-4 DEs should be taken early and given big contracts?

Well, you'll get different answers depending on who you ask. I think that question is best broken up into 2 parts. Would I take a 3-4 end that high? I wouldn't unless I felt I had a very good chance that the prospect was Richard Seymour caliber. Which, IMO, Tyson Jackson was not coming out of LSU. Would I pay a 3-4 a big contract? Again, if he'd proven himself to be about the caliber of Richard Seymour I would. I think both Jackson and Dorsey are very solid 3-4 ends. But neither are near the caliber of Seymour, IMO. So I probably wouldn't pay them tons of money. But, that's just my opinion.

Now, let me quantify that a bit further. With the new CBA those top 5 picks aren't nearly as expensive as Jackson and Dorsey were to draft. So that makes it a little better if a team were to take one that high.

FUNBUNCHER
03-20-2012, 11:06 AM
He's going to be overdrafted based on height/weight, some physical skills and playing for LSU.
IMO he's really a 3rd-5th round prospect. He left school too early.
And Dontari Poe still wouldn't have started for LSU.

Babylon
03-20-2012, 02:17 PM
He's going to be overdrafted based on height/weight, some physical skills and playing for LSU.
IMO he's really a 3rd-5th round prospect. He left school too early.
And Dontari Poe still wouldn't have started for LSU.

For me if he came back, had a great year and went in the top 5 then he's worth going mid-first round this year. I dont like guys coming out too early either but you have to sift through what kind of upside a player has and then go from there. If he get's by the New England picks i'm going to fall off my chair.

Lil Quip
03-20-2012, 02:31 PM
At first, his numbers were kind of disappointing, but on second thought, it isn't terrible for him in general. If he had tested well, he would most likely flown up draft boards. As it stands now, he is sitting anywhere from mid first to early second. Now he is floating around some really quality 3-4 teams that I imagine will be quite interested in molding him to their system. So as it stands, he could be picked up by Pitt Houston New England Baltimore NYJ or Green Bay. In their 3-4 looks, I don't think any of these teams are completely happy with their ends. As a raw guy, those seem like some pretty awesome landing spots.

Iamcanadian
03-20-2012, 02:40 PM
For me if he came back, had a great year and went in the top 5 then he's worth going mid-first round this year. I dont like guys coming out too early either but you have to sift through what kind of upside a player has and then go from there. If he get's by the New England picks i'm going to fall off my chair.

I agree, his upside is off the charts since he declared as a redshirt soph and is very, very raw, but I see no way KC drafts him, it is simply a luxury they cannot afford.

As for drafting Cox over him, it all depends what a team is looking for in its DT's or as a 3-4 DE. If they want a run stuffer, It Brockers, if they want a pass rusher, it's Cox.

KaneMarko
03-20-2012, 04:43 PM
but I see no way KC drafts him, it is simply a luxury they cannot afford.


KC may or may not draft Brockers. If I had to bet I'd say they won't. But I wouldn't go so far as to say he's a luxury they cannot afford. As mentioned in a previous post, it's definitely possible that this time next year Tyson Jackson and/or Glenn Dorsey won't be on the team any more due to financials. So I'm not sure I'd classify Brockers as a "luxury". In fact, if things go a certain way, one could make a strong argument that defensive end could become a necessity for the Chiefs.


The only defensive lineman they have behind Jackson and Dorsey that played significant snaps last year is Allen Bailey who they drafted last year. And, IMO, he's more of a 3rd down specialist than an every down 2-gapping defensive end in their scheme. Because that's about the only time he got on the field last year was on 3rd down passing situations. Jerrell Powe is a rookie NT who played exactly 9 total snaps last year. And that was due to injury to another lineman.

So I wouldn't cast Brockers as out of the question for the Chiefs. Unlikely perhaps...But I wouldn't say out of the question.

87Canes
03-20-2012, 08:02 PM
The problem with Jackson and Dorsey isn't, necessarily, their play (although there are still some issues there) but their pay. After this coming season Branden Albert and Glenn Dorsey will be UFAs. And Tyson Jackson's cap number skyrockets to $15 million. Albert being a very good LT in a league that covets left tackles is going to be expensive to resign. And the Chiefs almost have to re-sign him. That leaves questions with Dorsey and Jackson. Dorsey will be going into that coveted 2nd contract negotiation and is probably going to want something big. And as mentioned, Jackson's cap number skyrockets after next season. Having said all that, it's not hard to imagine at least one, maybe even 2, of the 3 I mentioned not being brought back due to financial reasons. That's why there are concerns there and questions about the long term futures of Dorsey and Jackson with the Chiefs.

100% correct. Their pay is the issue and that may screw us in the end with these 2 but hey if we're doing it now and still 30 mill under, then let's restructure. Easier said than done...

Also, no 3-4 DL is worth a top 10 pick. Dorsey wasn't suppose to play in that system and has over achieved but Jackson was def a reach.

J255979-11nine
03-20-2012, 10:44 PM
100% correct. Their pay is the issue and that may screw us in the end with these 2 but hey if we're doing it now and still 30 mill under, then let's restructure. Easier said than done...

Also, no 3-4 DL is worth a top 10 pick. Dorsey wasn't suppose to play in that system and has over achieved but Jackson was def a reach.

Richard Seymour disagrees.

DeepThreat
03-20-2012, 10:56 PM
What??? Do you live in KC??? I do and have yet to hear anything on this. Why would we get rid of the 2 3-4 DE's ranked #1 and #2 in tackles?

I thought this was absolutely hilarious. Especially since vidae does live in KC. Second, you act like tackles mean anything as far as play goes.

People dont pay attention to the fact that Dorsey has overachieved in his current role as he was only suppose to be a 3 tech in a 4-3. Tyson Jackson had a solid year and although he will never live up to his 3rd pick hype (as no 3-4 DE will ever) but our DE rotation is set with Dorsey, Jackson, Bailey, etc....

Who cares if he overachieved? What matters is how productive he is in a 3-4 scheme. The fact that he might be better in a 4-3 is completely irrelevant, unless you are advocating trading him, in which case I would agree. Dorsey is also on the final year of his contract.

Pretty sure Richard Seymour would have lived up to the No. 3 pick, and Tyson Jackson isn't exactly solid. He is maybe average.

87Canes
03-21-2012, 08:40 PM
I thought this was absolutely hilarious. Especially since vidae does live in KC. Second, you act like tackles mean anything as far as play goes.



Who cares if he overachieved? What matters is how productive he is in a 3-4 scheme. The fact that he might be better in a 4-3 is completely irrelevant, unless you are advocating trading him, in which case I would agree. Dorsey is also on the final year of his contract.

Pretty sure Richard Seymour would have lived up to the No. 3 pick, and Tyson Jackson isn't exactly solid. He is maybe average.

Tackles mean nothing as far as play? Isn't the objective of the defense to tackle the players on offense? I'm not seeing your logic behind that...compared to other 3-4 DE's they led so that means they are def stopping plays. 3-4 DE job is to technically "block" the OL from getting to the LBs so they can run around and make "plays".

By the way, the Chiefs defense was pretty good...

Also, contract year, oh well...cant worry about that right now. We need to win now and he def wont get the money he got as a rookie cause he's not worth it.

Then you say that Richard Seymour would be worth the 3rd pick in the NFL draft and yes you're right but that's 1 out of how many 3-4 DEs? That's like picking a kicker in the 1st rd cause Janikowski turned out pretty good.

C"MON MAN!

87Canes
03-21-2012, 08:44 PM
or like picking players from Miss Valley State because Jerry Rice came from there and became the greatest player of all time.

87Canes
03-21-2012, 08:54 PM
or like picking players from Miss Valley State because Jerry Rice came from there and became the greatest player of all time.

and Richard Seymour was drafted when the Patriots were in a 4-3. 1st 2 years of his career they ran a 4-3...

toonsterwu
03-21-2012, 11:44 PM
and Richard Seymour was drafted when the Patriots were in a 4-3. 1st 2 years of his career they ran a 4-3...

That's not ... exactly true. I'm guessing you are going off the wikipedia comment? What they really ran that year, off the top (been several years sinc eI thought about it) was a heavy hybrid scheme that year, but at it's very root, it was still often based upon 3-4 principles. One of the edge guys would be typically in a 3 point to set the edge/rush, giving "legitimacy" to the 4-3 idea, but do you remember the Super Bowl that year? Their outside backers were often smashing down on Faulk in the 2 point whenever they could (interestingly enough, on profootballreference, Seymour is listed as a DE that year).

DeepThreat
03-22-2012, 12:01 AM
Tackles mean nothing as far as play? Isn't the objective of the defense to tackle the players on offense? I'm not seeing your logic behind that...compared to other 3-4 DE's they led so that means they are def stopping plays. 3-4 DE job is to technically "block" the OL from getting to the LBs so they can run around and make "plays".

Hey you answered your own question. Judge the defensive ends by how well they took up blocks and made plays, not how many tackles they made. If tackles were all that mattered, Andra Davis would have been the NFL's best linebacker for several years.

By the way, the Chiefs defense was pretty good...

No way Tamba Halli, Derrick Johnson, Justin Houston, Brandon Flowers and Brandon Carr had anything to do with that, is there? The defense was good, but the team's defensive ends were not great at all.

Also, contract year, oh well...cant worry about that right now. We need to win now and he def wont get the money he got as a rookie cause he's not worth it.

You absolutely can worry about that now. Otherwise, a year from now, you have no defensive ends and other needs to boot. A good team drafts with the future in mind. Also, Brockers would contribute and play immediately. There's this amazing thing called "a rotation".

Then you say that Richard Seymour would be worth the 3rd pick in the NFL draft and yes you're right but that's 1 out of how many 3-4 DEs? That's like picking a kicker in the 1st rd cause Janikowski turned out pretty good.

At what point did I say Richard Seymour's success meant you should draft a 5-tech at No. 3? You said no 5-tech ever was worth the pick, and I pointed out one who was. There was nothing more to it than that.

I would draft Brockers at No. 11 because he fits a need and is going to be a stud. Not because Richard Seymour was worth the pick (seriously have no idea where the hell you got that from).

villagewarrior
03-22-2012, 08:39 AM
I would personally take Brockers over Poe regardless of who the Chiefs already had. Brockers has that potential that everyone loves Poe for, but he has also shown he can play in the SEC. However, there are other options I would like at 11 over both of these guys.

I also think drafting defensive linemen with top ten picks is worth it. A quality d-line can make a suspect back 7 look much better (ask the Giants), while a poor d-line drags everyone down to their level.

bitonti
03-22-2012, 09:31 AM
Brockers has that potential that everyone loves Poe for, but he has also shown he can play in the SEC. .

it's ironic how everyone sites Poe's lack of production but he actually has more than double the career sacks of Brockers.

Matthew Jones
03-22-2012, 10:06 AM
it's ironic how everyone sites Poe's lack of production but he actually has more than double the career sacks of Brockers.

That's not saying much. Poe played far more snaps in college and against much worse competition.

FUNBUNCHER
03-22-2012, 10:09 AM
Brockers gets pressure when he rushes and penetrates the LOS. Poe struggles to do that in C-USA.
You can't do a one to one comparison between Brockers/Poe because of level of competition.

Let's be honest, competition wise, it's as if Poe is coming straight out of junior college.

San Diego Chicken
03-22-2012, 10:49 AM
That's not saying much. Poe played far more snaps in college and against much worse competition.

Brockers also played with a far, far superior cast around him, so coaches could not focus in on him. Poe was the only player worth mentioning on his defense.

San Diego Chicken
03-22-2012, 10:51 AM
Brockers gets pressure when he rushes and penetrates the LOS. Poe struggles to do that in C-USA.
You can't do a one to one comparison between Brockers/Poe because of level of competition.

Let's be honest, competition wise, it's as if Poe is coming straight out of junior college.

That's not being honest. Conference USA is still FBS football.

SenorGato
03-22-2012, 04:51 PM
That's not saying much. Poe played far more snaps in college and against much worse competition.

Big advantage Poe there. Possibly a huge advantage.

Starting to see Brockers as more of a 4-3 DT with upside. Personally would take Fletcher Cox and Poe over him for a 3-4.

RaiderNation
03-22-2012, 04:53 PM
Big advantage Poe there. Possibly a huge advantage.

Starting to see Brockers as more of a 4-3 DT with upside. Personally would take Fletcher Cox and Poe over him for a 3-4.

I disagree, Brockers best position has to be a 5-tech in the 3-4, while Cox looks to be a potential stud at UT in a 4-3. Poe's best fit would be in a 3-4 scheme where he'd see time at NT and DE.

Matthew Jones
03-22-2012, 04:56 PM
I see Brockers as a two-gap 3-4 defensive end; very similar player to Marcus Spears. Fletcher Cox definitely seems like a 4-3 under tackle. Poe could project to UT or NT in the 4-3 or NT or DE in the 3-4; however the fact that we still have no idea where he fits into the league is a serious concern. Personally I see him as a Shaun Rogers type of player if he reaches his ceiling.

Jimmy
03-22-2012, 05:01 PM
Here's a question: Cox is certainly one of the premier pass rushing UT's in this class, but how will he fare against NFL guards in run support? For a team with sufficient pass rush who is looking to seriously upgrade run support, would he be any better value than a round 2 DT? This is assuming Still is off the board. I can't trust Poe.

SenorGato
03-22-2012, 05:30 PM
I disagree, Brockers best position has to be a 5-tech in the 3-4, while Cox looks to be a potential stud at UT in a 4-3. Poe's best fit would be in a 3-4 scheme where he'd see time at NT and DE.

Disagree on Brockers...could make it in a 3-4 with good coaching, but don't really see him as a Day 1 guy there...A creative 3-4 coach could easily find a way to fit Cox as a DE...guys like Pryce, Shaun Ellis, and Louis Castillo (for a little) thrived as 3-4 DEs and the only one with Cox's size there is Castillo (who was shorter and on the muscle juice)...Guy's used to the double team...agreed on Poe, and I'd be pretty confident drafting him into a 3-4.

Javzz
03-22-2012, 05:57 PM
it's ironic how everyone sites Poe's lack of production but he actually has more than double the career sacks of Brockers.

Brockers didn't play a lot in passing situations. Wasn't a slight to Brockers, LSU just ran a 3-2-6 "Mustang Package" a lot on third downs and against spread teams. The two ends were usually Montgomery and Mingo, with either Lavar Edwards/Bennie Logan/Anthony Johnson usually in the middle.

87Canes
03-22-2012, 08:10 PM
Hey you answered your own question. Judge the defensive ends by how well they took up blocks and made plays, not how many tackles they made. If tackles were all that mattered, Andra Davis would have been the NFL's best linebacker for several years.



No way Tamba Halli, Derrick Johnson, Justin Houston, Brandon Flowers and Brandon Carr had anything to do with that, is there? The defense was good, but the team's defensive ends were not great at all.



You absolutely can worry about that now. Otherwise, a year from now, you have no defensive ends and other needs to boot. A good team drafts with the future in mind. Also, Brockers would contribute and play immediately. There's this amazing thing called "a rotation".



At what point did I say Richard Seymour's success meant you should draft a 5-tech at No. 3? You said no 5-tech ever was worth the pick, and I pointed out one who was. There was nothing more to it than that.

I would draft Brockers at No. 11 because he fits a need and is going to be a stud. Not because Richard Seymour was worth the pick (seriously have no idea where the hell you got that from).

So we went from talking about DE tackle count to LB tackle count who should be the player on every defense that has the most tackles right?

And you're saying Brockers is going to be a stud based on one year of productivity? I wouldn't spend an 11th pick on a DE that's going to fit a rotation when we also have Allen Bailey who is learning how to truly play football.

With the 11th pick, Chiefs should take Poe who is also questionable but he measure very well and has at least played more than one season at a high level of individual play.

If Trent's still there, take Richardson, cut Hillis. No need for a tackle since we got Winston so maybe take DeCastro (who is the best guard I've seen come out in a very long time)...maybe even take the best ILB like Kuechly or Hightower.

Brockers to me should stay in the system he did well in last season which is the 4-3. If Carolina wants him at 10, then that would be a much better fit...

Every time someone sees a DT or DE that's 6'6", 300 plus pounds, they automatically think "Richard Seymour" and he's one of the very few exceptions to the STUD 5 tech "rule".

KCStud
03-22-2012, 08:17 PM
RT @RookieDraft: The Kansas City #Chiefs will be having dinner w/ DT Michael Brockers, #LSU tonight.Matt Miller ‏ @nfldraftscout Reply Retweet Favorite Open

Chiefs won't let him past 11. He's gonna play NT for us too.

Major upside, quick burst, commanded double teams 90% of the time in college, and can easily get up to 330+ lbs.

I think we take him. Nobody has commanded attention in the middle of the defense in our 3-4 system. Brockers would be a nice fit.

87Canes
03-22-2012, 08:20 PM
RT @RookieDraft: The Kansas City #Chiefs will be having dinner w/ DT Michael Brockers, #LSU tonight.Matt Miller ‏ @nfldraftscout Reply Retweet Favorite Open

Chiefs won't let him past 11. He's gonna play NT for us too.

Major upside, quick burst, commanded double teams 90% of the time in college, and can easily get up to 330+ lbs.

I think we take him. Nobody has commanded attention in the middle of the defense in our 3-4 system. Brockers would be a nice fit.

Pioli and his damn obsession with finding the next great SEC DL for a 3-4. F**k!!!

bruschis4all
03-22-2012, 08:33 PM
Did Brockers run today at LSU pro day?

duesouth
03-23-2012, 05:26 AM
Did Brockers run today at LSU pro day?

From NFL.com:

"Michael Brockers, DT (6-5 316) Brockers measured in six pounds lighter than combine. He had 5.26 and 5.18 40-yard dashes, a 30-inch vertical jump, 8-2 broad jump, 4.78 short shuttle, 7.48 cone, and 21 strength lifts. He moves really well for a defensive tackle and displayed his agility in the position drills."

villagewarrior
03-23-2012, 08:34 AM
it's ironic how everyone sites Poe's lack of production but he actually has more than double the career sacks of Brockers.

I've tried to stay from statistics because for the most part they can be very misleading. Granted, I've not seen much of Poe's tape, but what I have seen is a guy who doesn't seem to command a lot of attention from his opponents and he isn't very disruptive. With his measurable, and playing in CUSA, we should be seeing him being double and triple teamed. I haven't seen that.

On the other hand, when you watch Brockers play you see a guy who commands two blockers frequently. He is a bull to move. He's disruptive, and while statistics don't show production, he was in the backfield a lot, playing against SEC offensive lines. Brockers should've returned to school and put himself in a position to go top 5 next year, because he is undeniably raw.

I don't understand the Brockers as a nose talk. He looks very much like a 34 end or 43 tackle to me.

KaneMarko
03-23-2012, 10:48 AM
RT @RookieDraft: The Kansas City #Chiefs will be having dinner w/ DT Michael Brockers, #LSU tonight.Matt Miller ‏ @nfldraftscout Reply Retweet Favorite Open

Chiefs won't let him past 11. He's gonna play NT for us too.

Major upside, quick burst, commanded double teams 90% of the time in college, and can easily get up to 330+ lbs.

I think we take him. Nobody has commanded attention in the middle of the defense in our 3-4 system. Brockers would be a nice fit.

I'm glad the Chiefs are considering him. I'd strongly consider him too at 11. But I see him as a 5-tech more than I do a zero-tech.

cajuncorey
03-23-2012, 02:28 PM
Pioli and his damn obsession with finding the next great LSU DL for a 3-4. F**k!!!

yeah those damn cheifs

bitonti
03-26-2012, 10:26 AM
Pioli and his damn obsession with finding the next great SEC DL for a 3-4. F**k!!!

no one loves LSU DL more than Pioli. No one.