PDA

View Full Version : Is Eli Manning an Elite QB?


mellojello
02-05-2012, 10:03 PM
The guy has 2 SB's now, so does he get into the "elite" club?

Bulldogs
02-05-2012, 10:04 PM
I don't think it's really a debate at this point. The better question is does he make the HOF. I say yes.

BaLLiN
02-05-2012, 10:04 PM
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50572&highlight=Eli+manning+elite

descendency
02-05-2012, 10:05 PM
He won't be elite until he beats a good secondary in the Super Bowl.

sarcasm = yes

BloodBrother
02-05-2012, 10:06 PM
Guy is money in the 4th quarter and now has 2 SB's. Yes.

Halsey
02-05-2012, 10:07 PM
He might be as good as anyone in the league right now. I think Eli compares favorably to Rodgers, Brees and Brady.

MetSox17
02-05-2012, 10:23 PM
I feel about Eli the way i felt about Roethlisberger after the Cardinals superbowl.

HEISMANHERSCHEL
02-05-2012, 10:25 PM
AHH, come on. Is this really a question? How many guys have multiple SB wins. He is elite. This is silly. He also has dumb face. But, yes, he is elite. There is no argument against him.

ATLDirtyBirds
02-05-2012, 10:43 PM
I feel about Eli the way i felt about Roethlisberger after the Cardinals superbowl.


In the sense that's he's really good but people are still not going to be satisfied with that and massively overrate him?

Jimmy
02-05-2012, 10:44 PM
AHH, come on. Is this really a question? How many guys have multiple SB wins. He is elite. This is silly. He also has dumb face. But, yes, he is elite. There is no argument against him.

Eli Manning = Terrell Davis. Elite? Sure. Canton? Joke.

Both were great players. I'd go so far as saying TD was actually more elite for the 4 seasons he ruled the nfl.

In contrast, eli manning has only had 4 seasons of 80+ QBR football. not particularly canton worthy. Matt Schaub has 5.

TD should NOT be in canton, despite 2 rings and 2 MVP esque superbowl performances. Neither should Eli! His only argument over TD is that he is a QB, and not a RB. Should not be an automatic bid, though.

I think superbowl wins certainly count for something, but they shouldn't automatically qualify a great but not hall of fame quality player. seriously.

vidae
02-05-2012, 11:05 PM
Eli Manning is elite, yes. There is no question now. Hell, there wasn't really a question after the season he had, but the playoffs solidified it.

PoopSandwich
02-05-2012, 11:05 PM
Eli Manning = Terrell Davis. Elite? Sure. Canton? Joke.

Both were great players. I'd go so far as saying TD was actually more elite for the 4 seasons he ruled the nfl.

In contrast, eli manning has only had 4 seasons of 80+ QBR football. not particularly canton worthy. Matt Schaub has 5.

TD should NOT be in canton, despite 2 rings and 2 MVP esque superbowl performances. Neither should Eli! His only argument over TD is that he is a QB, and not a RB. Should not be an automatic bid, though.

I think superbowl wins certainly count for something, but they shouldn't automatically qualify a great but not hall of fame quality player. seriously.

That **** cray.

FUNBUNCHER
02-05-2012, 11:08 PM
The Giants won two SBs with Elijah as their starting QB they had no business winning.

Forget the SB. Look at the wins the Giants had in the playoffs just to get to the show.

All Eli needs is time in, maybe five more years added to his career.
Otherwise he's a lock.
Dude is clutch, and in games that mean the most, he's been better than Aaron Rodgers AND Tom Brady (twice).

bigbluedefense
02-05-2012, 11:10 PM
Eli Manning = Terrell Davis. Elite? Sure. Canton? Joke.

Both were great players. I'd go so far as saying TD was actually more elite for the 4 seasons he ruled the nfl.

In contrast, eli manning has only had 4 seasons of 80+ QBR football. not particularly canton worthy. Matt Schaub has 5.

TD should NOT be in canton, despite 2 rings and 2 MVP esque superbowl performances. Neither should Eli! His only argument over TD is that he is a QB, and not a RB. Should not be an automatic bid, though.

I think superbowl wins certainly count for something, but they shouldn't automatically qualify a great but not hall of fame quality player. seriously.

He's on his way to Canton. The guy's career is far from over. If he continues to play this way, and there's no reason to believe he won't considering he's improved every year he's been in the league, I don't see how he won't make it to Canton as long as he continues to play at the same level for the rest of his career.

Jimmy
02-05-2012, 11:14 PM
Eli Manning is elite, yes. There is no question now. Hell, there wasn't really a question after the season he had, but the playoffs solidified it.

If elite means tier 1, then he's not elite

1. Brady- 3 rings, 105 rating in 2011-2012 96.4 career QBR, 6 seasons with 90+ QBR
2. Peyton- 1 ring, 91.9 rating in his last full season played, 94.9 career QBR, 10 seasons with 90+ QBR
3. Rodgers- 122.4 rating in 2011-2012, 1 ring in 2011, 104.1 career QBR, 4 seasons with 90+ QBR, 2012 MVP
4. Brees- 110.0 rating in 2011-2012, 1 ring in 2010- 94.0 career QBR, 5 seasons with 90+ QBR, 2012 OPOY

Now Eli Manning:

2 rings, 92 rating this year, career 82.9 QB rating, 2 seasons with 90+ QBR

Literally the only thing that has him in the discussion is his 2 great seasons? Elite? Man, I have a really hard time admitting that one. He's great. But he isn't tier 1. He's just not.

Jimmy
02-05-2012, 11:15 PM
He's on his way to Canton. The guy's career is far from over. If he continues to play this way, and there's no reason to believe he won't considering he's improved every year he's been in the league, I don't see how he won't make it to Canton as long as he continues to play at the same level for the rest of his career.

if if if if if. he's 31 and has 2 seasons with a 90 QBR. people are so fast to hop on his ****.

gpngc
02-05-2012, 11:17 PM
in other news, the 2004 draft class is on its way to being almost goat.

(see ican contribute even drunk)

PoopSandwich
02-05-2012, 11:20 PM
if if if if if. he's 31 and has 2 seasons with a 90 QBR. people are so fast to hop on his ****.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm

John Elway career 79.9 passer rating therefore he isn't very good and ONLY won two super bowls. Also only had two seasons over 90 QBR.

Not a hall of famer if you ask me.

OWNEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

bigbluedefense
02-05-2012, 11:20 PM
if if if if if. he's 31 and has 2 seasons with a 90 QBR. people are so fast to hop on his ****.

He's going to Canton. It's almost a lock. Every qb who has 2+ SBs has gotten into Canton other than Jim Plunkett. And Eli's career is far superior to his so I'll be shocked if he doesn't wind up in Canton eventually.

The precedent is already set. He'll go to Canton. Whether it's deserving or not is a separate debate and I won't fault you at all for feeling he's not deserving yet, but he's going in. Perception in football matters when it comes to accolades like the HOF. Even if perception and reality are not the same.

Jimmy
02-05-2012, 11:31 PM
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm

John Elway career 79.9 passer rating therefore he isn't very good and ONLY won two super bowls. Also only had two seasons over 90 QBR.

Not a hall of famer if you ask me.

OWNEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Well that's silly. How much time do you have? I will start naming all the things that separate Elway from Manning. 5 superbowl appearances. 7 seasons with a QBR over 80, as opposed to 4 for eli. No help his entire career up until the age of 95. sacked 519 times to eli's 194 despite far superior release timing and mobility. Never had a pro-bowl receiver until his 10th year in shannon sharpe, never had a pro bowl WR tillthe emergence of rod smith in 1997, 2 years away from his retirement. All time leader in 4th quarter comebacks. 46 career 4thquarter comebacks to eli's 23. 64% career win percentage not including the playoffs to eli's 57% career win percentage. go home, troll. The reason my argument that eli isn't tier 1 or a HOF'er was so small in the first place is that eli has nothing to even talk about aside from 2 rings and 2 elite seasons.

perception and reality show that eli manning can't hold elway's jock, or rodgers (future HOFER, like Manning and Brady)

If manning can put together more than 2 90+ QBR seasons or another ring he's in. Jim Plunkett was practically ass, and to this date, he has 1 less 80+ QBR season than manning.

manning, unlike elway, has NOTHING that separates him from the pack of QB's that have won multiple superbowls. No longevity, just a clutch gene for 2 seasons.

gpngc
02-05-2012, 11:33 PM
Well that's silly. How much time do you have? I will start naming all the things that separate Elway from Manning. 5 superbowl appearances. 7 seasons with a QBR over 80, as opposed to 4 for eli. No help his entire career up until the age of 95. sacked 519 times to eli's 194 despite far superior release timing and mobility. Never had a pro-bowl receiver until Rod Smith/Eddie Mac. All time leader in 4th quarter comebacks. 46 career 4thquarter comebacks to eli's 23. 64% career win percentage not including the playoffs to eli's 57% career win percentage. go home, troll. The reason my argument that eli isn't tier 1 or a HOF'er was so small in the first place is that eli has nothing to even talk about aside from 2 rings and 2 elite seasons.

because **** rings! amirite?

Jimmy
02-05-2012, 11:38 PM
because **** rings! amirite?

well i'm done arguing with you simpletons. can't even process my argument. i say that eli isn't a hof'er because the only thing he has to show is 2 rings, and it's automatically "Jimmy is saying rings mean nothing, **** rings!"

you don't see people calling robert horry tier 1, do you?

End.

Halsey
02-05-2012, 11:40 PM
You're grasping for straws when all you have is passer ratings from 6 years ago. Most people here live in 2012, and right now Eli is elite. If you're living in 2006 and relying on select stats, I can see the argument against Eli as elite.

gpngc
02-05-2012, 11:40 PM
no, absolutely not, but rings aren't everything, just a piece of the pie.

you don't see people calling robert horry tier 1, do you?

robert horry never played QB. he was a complementary piece. always. eli has played 8 seasons. he's won 2 rings. and he's been prety great in all others. so basically, he's won the whole ******* thing 25% of the years he's played...

im drunk, but jeremy lin help me if im wrong in this argument.

Jimmy
02-05-2012, 11:41 PM
You're grasping for straws when all you have is passer ratings from 6 years ago. Most people here live in 2012, and right now Eli is elite. If you're living in 2006 and relying on select stats, I can see the argument against Eli as elite.

in 2012, he is not on the brady, rodgers, manning (peyton variety) brees level.

he is tier 2. you tell me, is that elite?

Halsey
02-05-2012, 11:43 PM
Winning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irrelevant opinions about what tier he's on.

DraftSavant
02-05-2012, 11:43 PM
One thing that is fairly obvious with Eli: there has been clear and marked progression wi him every single season. And he's one of the rare players where you can track his progression statistically as well.

Every year he gets better. His floor coming out was kinda overrated. His ceiling was kinda underrated tbh. He's every bit the coach on the field his bro is.

gpngc
02-05-2012, 11:45 PM
in 2012, he is not on the brady, rodgers, manning (peyton variety) brees level.

he is tier 2. you tell me, is that elite?

you are right. he's not them. he just beat them both in the ******* playoffs... including brady in the damn super bowl.

Jimmy
02-05-2012, 11:45 PM
robert horry never played QB. he was a complementary piece. always. eli has played 8 seasons. he's won 2 rings. and he's been prety great in all others. so basically, he's won the whole ******* thing 25% of the years he's played...

im drunk, but jeremy lin help me if im wrong in this argument.

whose to say Eli isn't just as complimentary? Seriously.

The dude has a 1.58 to 1 TD-INT Ratio for his career and has never even eclipsed a 30 TD season without throwing 25 picks. Heck, he's never thrown more than 25 TD's without a minimum 14 INT's.

Matt Schaub is a better regular season QB with as many rings as marino, and you want to put Eli in the HOF because of 2 rings?

Jimmy
02-05-2012, 11:46 PM
you are right. he's not them. he just beat them both in the ******* playoffs... including brady in the damn super bowl.

and by that logic, horry was better than every single superstar he beat in the finals. sports are a ******* team effort.

Jimmy
02-05-2012, 11:47 PM
Winning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> irrelevant opinions about what tier he's on.

yep, irrelevant opinions on what tier he's on in a thread about what tier he is on (i.e. ELITE STATUS or NOT?)

gpngc
02-05-2012, 11:48 PM
whose to say Eli isn't just as complimentary? Seriously.

The dude has a 1.58 to 1 TD-INT Ratio for his career and has never even eclipsed a 30 TD season without throwing 25 picks. Heck, he's never thrown more than 25 TD's without a minimum 14 INT's.

Matt Schaub is a better regular season QB with as many rings as marino, and you want to put Eli in the HOF?

eli is not as complementary as robert horry. he is a quarterback. your argument loses there.

comparing him to schaub, who has ZERO playoff wins/appearances... your agrument loses again.

bigbluedefense
02-05-2012, 11:48 PM
whose to say Eli isn't just as complimentary? Seriously

The dude has a 1.58 to 1 TD-INT Ratio for his career and has never even eclipsed a 30 TD season without throwing 25 picks. Heck, he's never thrown more than 25 TD's without a minimum 14 INT's.

Matt Schaub is a better regular season QB with as many rings as marino, and you want to put Eli in the HOF?

Ok, now you're just trolling.

You must be from the "Phillip Rivers is a top 5 qb" school of thought.

Jimmy
02-05-2012, 11:50 PM
eli is not as complementary as robert horry. he is a quarterback. your argument loses there.

comparing him to schaub, who has ZERO playoff wins/appearances... your agrument loses again.

no it doesnt! people make the same argument in EVERY SPORT about EVERY PLAYER's HALL OF FAME CREDENTIALS!!! RINGS = IN according to some people. you are out of your mind.

your argument = playoffs = hof, regardless of a very pedestrian regular season career.

Justin Tuck is a hall of famer if Eli Manning is a hall of famer. 2 rings, a much better player at his position.

edit: eli plays the most important position in sports, and has done so at a very tier 2 level over his entire career. not HOF worthy. If Eli Manning doesn't win a 2nd superbowl, he isn't within a lightyear of this discussion. he wins it, and loonies start mentioning it because they had 1 too many.

Jimmy
02-05-2012, 11:51 PM
Ok, now you're just trolling.

You must be from the "Phillip Rivers is a top 5 qb" school of thought.

nice logical argument backed up with stats. exactly what i expect to see on the internet.

DraftSavant
02-05-2012, 11:51 PM
whose to say Eli isn't just as complimentary? Seriously.

The dude has a 1.58 to 1 TD-INT Ratio for his career and has never even eclipsed a 30 TD season without throwing 25 picks. Heck, he's never thrown more than 25 TD's without a minimum 14 INT's.

Matt Schaub is a better regular season QB with as many rings as marino, and you want to put Eli in the HOF because of 2 rings?

...................

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/658594/kobe-uninterested-o.gif

Halsey
02-05-2012, 11:52 PM
Guys, stop talking about how much Eli wins. We need to discuss his passer rating in 2004-2006 to really come to reasonable conclusion.

DraftSavant
02-05-2012, 11:52 PM
I don't even know what to say at this point.

gpngc
02-05-2012, 11:53 PM
robert horry
matt schaub
tom brady
jeremy lin
eli manning
joseph addai's foot fungus

GOT IT

TitanHope
02-05-2012, 11:54 PM
Yes, and the only reason people even consider him not to be is because of the other all-time great QB's playing in today's NFL. You have Brady and Peyton who will be seen as definite Top 5 QB's of all time, Drew Brees who has a SB and gaudy stats, Aaron Rodgers who has a SB and just won an MVP, Roethlisberger who has two SB's and three appearances, and all of the other great QB's such as Rivers, etc. He shouldn't be punished because he's playing with 2 GOAT candidates, one first ballot HoF'er, and a young stallion. He's the 4th best QB in the NFL on Feb. 6th, 2012, and Top 5 if you don't project Peyton's injury to really set him back. I'd say being Top 5 at your position is elite.

He's got the championships. He's got the talent. He has the clutch aspect. He's UNSTOPPABLE. Hell, he's even got the pedigree. You can't even argue he's not putting up amazing numbers, since this year he had nearly 5,000 yards and completed 61% of his passes at 8.4 Y/A while throwing 29 TD's and 16 INT's. If we're talking about right now, then throw out career numbers. What he did as a rookie or sophomore QB has little bearing over whether he's an elite QB in 2012.

Halsey
02-05-2012, 11:54 PM
By the way, has anyone mentioned this little detail: He's never missed a game.

Kind of important.

Jimmy
02-05-2012, 11:57 PM
Guys, stop talking about how much Eli wins. We need to discuss his passer rating in 2004-2006 to really come to reasonable conclusion.

I'm serious. Your only argument is that he has won 2 superbowls as a quarterback. That is it. That is it. Why isn't Jim Plunkett in the HOF? Jim McMahon? Ben Roethlisberger? Oh yeah! Because we have to consider his whole body of work! God, I'm wasted.

*Big ben won't get in unless he wins a 3rd or has a few amazing seasons that i don't expect

bigbluedefense
02-05-2012, 11:58 PM
Roethlisberger is going to be a HOFer too.

the 04 qb class might end up being the GOAT. Especially if Rivers wins a ring in the future. Or Schaub.

Halsey
02-05-2012, 11:59 PM
I'm serious. Your only argument is that he has won 2 superbowls as a quarterback. That is it. That is it.

False. I said he wins. I wasn't just talking about Super Bowls. And I also pointed out he never misses games.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 12:00 AM
He's got the championships. He's got the talent. He has the clutch aspect. He's UNSTOPPABLE. Hell, he's even got the pedigree. You can't even argue he's not putting up amazing numbers, since this year he had nearly 5,000 yards and completed 61% of his passes at 8.4 Y/A while throwing 29 TD's and 16 INT's. If we're talking about right now, then throw out career numbers. What he did as a rookie or sophomore QB has little bearing over whether he's an elite QB in 2012.

Nobody's yet to present me proof he has the talent! He has the championships. He doesn't have HOF talent, though. Like I keep saying to nauseous levels, 2 great seasons, and that's it. His whole career. 2 seasons. And as for elite talent, if he's elite the tier 1 list looks like this:
-------------------Brady, Manning


-------------------Rodgers

-------------------Brees


















-------------------- Eli

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 12:01 AM
False. I said he wins. I wasn't just talking about Super Bowls. And I also pointed out he never misses games.

Collectively, no he doesn't. He has a 57% career winning percentage as a starter.

whatadai
02-06-2012, 12:05 AM
this is what makes me not call eli elite...

today i watched brady and was wowed by his throws and disappointed by his receivers.

today i watched eli and was disappointed by his throws and wowed by his receivers' abilities to still catch them.

if i took the rest of the season into consideration...he would be "elite" for this season. if i took his whole career into consideration...he has to play next year like he has played in the regular season this year for me to call him elite.

DraftSavant
02-06-2012, 12:06 AM
Elway: 57% passer. 1.3 TD:INT ratio. Only 2 SBs.

Not elite.

whatadai
02-06-2012, 12:08 AM
False. I said he wins. I wasn't just talking about Super Bowls. And I also pointed out he never misses games.

Tebow wins too.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 12:08 AM
Ben Roethlisberger vs. Eli Manning

Rings: 2 each
Win % regular season: 70% Ben 57% Eli
Career Rating: 92.9 Ben 84.something Eli
4th quarter comebacks: 20 for ben, 19 eli
GWD: 23 eli, 26 for ben.

Ben is better stats wise, a better regular season qb, and a more clutch player. and has as many rings. and he is certainly not in the HOF equation without another ring or a few lights out seasons past what we have seen from his thus far.

so tell me why eli deserves it over ben?

PoopSandwich
02-06-2012, 12:08 AM
Well that's silly. How much time do you have? I will start naming all the things that separate Elway from Manning. 5 superbowl appearances. 7 seasons with a QBR over 80, as opposed to 4 for eli. No help his entire career up until the age of 95. sacked 519 times to eli's 194 despite far superior release timing and mobility. Never had a pro-bowl receiver until his 10th year in shannon sharpe, never had a pro bowl WR tillthe emergence of rod smith in 1997, 2 years away from his retirement. All time leader in 4th quarter comebacks. 46 career 4thquarter comebacks to eli's 23. 64% career win percentage not including the playoffs to eli's 57% career win percentage. go home, troll. The reason my argument that eli isn't tier 1 or a HOF'er was so small in the first place is that eli has nothing to even talk about aside from 2 rings and 2 elite seasons.

perception and reality show that eli manning can't hold elway's jock, or rodgers (future HOFER, like Manning and Brady)

If manning can put together more than 2 90+ QBR seasons or another ring he's in. Jim Plunkett was practically ass, and to this date, he has 1 less 80+ QBR season than manning.

manning, unlike elway, has NOTHING that separates him from the pack of QB's that have won multiple superbowls. No longevity, just a clutch gene for 2 seasons.

Eli is 31, has two super bowls, and has put together one of the most clutch seasons in NFL history. You are using stats, not your eyes, this is where you fail.

TACKLE
02-06-2012, 12:09 AM
this is what makes me not call eli elite...

today i watched brady and was wowed by his throws and disappointed by his receivers.

today i watched eli and was disappointed by his throws and wowed by his receivers' abilities to still catch them.

Were we watching the same game? Eli made some terrific stick throws into tight windows that were perfectly placed. I don't recall a single play all game where his receiver bailed him out on a poor throw by making an amazing catch.

Complex
02-06-2012, 12:09 AM
Big Ben is overrated as ****

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 12:09 AM
Elway: 57% passer. 1.3 TD:INT ratio. Only 2 SBs.

Not elite.
Quote from earlier. elway brings stuff to the table besides 2 rings, eli does not.
Well that's silly. How much time do you have? I will start naming all the things that separate Elway from Manning. 5 superbowl appearances. 7 seasons with a QBR over 80, as opposed to 4 for eli. No help his entire career up until the age of 95. sacked 519 times to eli's 194 despite far superior release timing and mobility. Never had a pro-bowl receiver until his 10th year in shannon sharpe, never had a pro bowl WR tillthe emergence of rod smith in 1997, 2 years away from his retirement. All time leader in 4th quarter comebacks. 46 career 4thquarter comebacks to eli's 23. 64% career win percentage not including the playoffs to eli's 57% career win percentage. go home, troll. The reason my argument that eli isn't tier 1 or a HOF'er was so small in the first place is that eli has nothing to even talk about aside from 2 rings and 2 elite seasons.

perception and reality show that eli manning can't hold elway's jock, or rodgers (future HOFER, like Manning and Brady)

If manning can put together more than 2 90+ QBR seasons or another ring he's in. Jim Plunkett was practically ass, and to this date, he has 1 less 80+ QBR season than manning.

manning, unlike elway, has NOTHING that separates him from the pack of QB's that have won multiple superbowls. No longevity, just a clutch gene for 2 seasons.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 12:10 AM
Eli is 31, has two super bowls, and has put together one of the most clutch seasons in NFL history. You are using stats, not your eyes, this is where you fail.

so did terrell davis. what else does eli offer. nobody has told me that yet.

bigbluedefense
02-06-2012, 12:10 AM
Umm...both are going to the HOF...

And Eli is a 2 time SB MVP. Every other qb to do that is a first ballot HOFer.

Again, it's not really a question of if Eli will make it. He's pretty much a lock for the HOF now, it's a question of whether he deserves to make it. I won't argue that, bc quite frankly, his career isn't over yet, so we can't really say if he deserves it or not yet bc his final chapters have yet to be written.

But he's basically a lock to make the HOF at this point regardless of his future bc of the precedents set before him.

DraftSavant
02-06-2012, 12:11 AM
NOT ENUF STATZ aaaaa

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 12:12 AM
NOT ENUF STATZ aaaaa

more like not any stats.

literally all ive seen stats wise from ANYONE is that he has 2 rings and 2 mvp's.

that's it. thats all.

TD has 2 rings too, and should have had 2 mvps. he's not HOF worthy.

PoopSandwich
02-06-2012, 12:13 AM
so did terrell davis. what else does eli offer. nobody has told me that yet.

Terrell Davis is a ******* running back your blind homerism is unbelievable.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 12:14 AM
And Eli is a 2 time SB MVP. Every other qb to do that is a first ballot HOFer.

Terrible logic. If i had the time to research all the "every other player to do this has made it" scenarios in every sport, i could teach a fully credited course on it.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 12:15 AM
Terrell Davis is a ******* running back your blind homerism is unbelievable.

you do realize i'm saying that terrell davis is NOT HOF worthy correct? That i'm using him as part of my argument? That a QB doesn't get into the HOF just because he's a quarterback and he won 2 superbowls?

Complex
02-06-2012, 12:16 AM
you do realize i'm saying that terrell davis is NOT HOF worthy correct? That i'm using him as part of my argument? That a QB doesn't get into the HOF just because he's a quarterback and he won 2 superbowls?

Um he sort of does.

PoopSandwich
02-06-2012, 12:17 AM
Terrible logic. If i had the time to research all the "every other player to do this has made it" scenarios in every sport, i could teach a fully credited course on it.

TD is a good player and probably could get voted into the HOF some day, but he is still a ******* running back. There are plenty of running backs that played on good teams and won super bowls that were major contributor but could have been replaced by most of the running backs in the league and the team would still be a super bowl team. How many QB's are as clutch as Eli and could be replaced and take the Giants to the super bowl? Maybe 3 or 4?

If it were ******* Trent Dilfer we were talking about it would be a different story. Eli Manning legitimately carried his team this year at points to get into the post season and then played great in the playoffs as well as the Super Bowl. He has beat Tom ******* Brady twice in the Super Bowl. You know how many other QB's have done that? None.

He knocked off an 18-0 team that was going into the Super Bowl as the best team in NFL history and then this year takes a 9-7 team through the playoffs and wins again. Yet he probably isn't worthy because you don't think his career stats are good enough.

TACKLE
02-06-2012, 12:23 AM
Big Ben is overrated as ****

Even as someone who passionately hates Ben, I have to disagree with that statement. While we're all throwing around the 'E word', I would also classify Ben as elite.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 12:25 AM
TD is a good player and probably could get voted into the HOF some day, but he is still a ******* running back. There are plenty of running backs that played on good teams and won super bowls that were major contributor but could have been replaced by most of the running backs in the league and the team would still be a super bowl team. How many QB's are as clutch as Eli and could be replaced and take the Giants to the super bowl? Maybe 3 or 4?

Right, but TD is a league mvp, a 3 time all pro selection, 2 time offensive player of the year. eli can't touch that for his position. Funny how Elway didn't win a superbowl in his 90 year career until TD popped up.

If it were ******* Trent Dilfer we were talking about it would be a different story. Eli Manning legitimately carried his team this year at points to get into the post season and then played great in the playoffs as well as the Super Bowl. He has beat Tom ******* Brady twice in the Super Bowl. You know how many other QB's have done that? None.





zomg eli has a few statistics that nobody else has! surefire hall of famer!

****, bill romanowski had 4 rings and multiple pro bowls. he is the only LB that fits that description that has not been elected to the hall of fame. Do you know why? HE WAS ABOVE AVERAGE HIS ENTIRE CAREER LIKE ELI.

RANDOM STATS THAT DO NOT TIE INTO OVERALL CAREER PERFORMANCE DO NOT GUARANTEE A HALL OF FAME BID
Manning carried his team with the help of the best d-line in the game and the best WR core in the game, as well as 2 very nice complimentary backs. You act like it was all him. Please.

He knocked off an 18-0 team that was going into the Super Bowl as the best team in NFL history and then this year takes a 9-7 team through the playoffs and wins again. Yet he probably isn't worthy because you don't think his career stats are good enough.

david tyree also knocked off a 18-0 team that was going to the superbowl as the best team ever. and victor cruz also did the same this year. they arent worthy because their career stats aren't good enough. and since that is literally your only argument, that's all i have to refute with.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 12:26 AM
Um he sort of does.

jim plunkett. jim mcmahon. phill simms. that's 3 of 11, moron. Eli is barely above those guys and far below the rest (minus roethlisberger) at a career level.

PoopSandwich
02-06-2012, 12:27 AM
Right, but TD is a league mvp, a 3 time all pro selection, 2 time offensive player of the year. eli can't touch that for his position. Funny how Elway didn't win a superbowl in his 90 year career until TD popped up.

Manning carried his team with the help of the best d-line in the game and the best WR core in the game, as well as 2 very nice complimentary backs. You act like it was all him. Please.


zomg eli has a few statistics that nobody else has! surefire hall of famer!

****, bill romanowski had 4 rings and multiple pro bowls. he is the only LB that fits that description that has not been elected to the hall of fame. Do you know why? HE WAS ABOVE AVERAGE HIS ENTIRE CAREER LIKE ELI.

RANDOM STATS THAT DO NOT TIE INTO OVERALL CAREER PERFORMANCE DO NOT GUARANTEE A HALL OF FAME BID

You are the one using the majority of stats, I said Eli was clutch and beat possibly the best team in NFL history to win the Super Bowl, and it isn't like he's a scrub. If you don't think Eli is a hall of famer that's your bag baby but your argument sucks.

RaiderNation
02-06-2012, 12:29 AM
Eli's a HoF in my book for sure now, and I think only being 31 he can easily reach 2 more Super Bowls by the end of his career. Eli is a top 5 QB in the NFL right now, and if he can have another 3 or 4 seasons like this year he could go down as the best Manning over his dad and Peyton.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 12:32 AM
You are the one using the majority of stats, I said Eli was clutch and beat possibly the best team in NFL history to win the Super Bowl, and it isn't like he's a scrub. If you don't think Eli is a hall of famer that's your bag baby but your argument sucks.

and you're the one not even using stats that have relevance! the stats that i use add to my argument, whereas the 2 stats you use are just "he's one of few to ever do that, surefire lock!" so tell me why TD and Romanowski don't make the HOF? Do go ahead.

I mean you're effectively saying eli is clutch and that he beat the best team in nfl history (so did Jared Lorenzen and David Tyree! football is a team sport!)

He isn't a scrub. that is your argument. no he isn't, but he isn't close to a hall of famer talent wise.

That's my bag baby, at least i have a sucky argument. you don't even have one, just an opinion.

Seriously, why isn't bill romanowski in the HOF? Why isn't TD? Because they aren't quarterbacks? You've yet to refute anything or attack any central points, just contradiction. here's a little debate 101

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/156715/argpyr.jpg

Complex
02-06-2012, 12:41 AM
jim plunkett. jim mcmahon. phill simms. that's 3 of 11, moron. Eli is barely above those guys and far below the rest (minus roethlisberger) at a career level.

Jim Plunkett is the only one that started both games. That hasn't made the HOF. He wasn't that good of QB. He only had 3 season where he threw more TD than INTs.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 12:46 AM
Jim Plunkett is the only one that started both games. That hasn't made the HOF.

One part of your argument, certainly fair. Plunkett is still proof that 2 SB's as a QB isn't a surefire lock. Manning is certainly better than plunkett career wise, but he can't touch the rest on that list. he is somewhere inbetween. i think you can agree with me. Roethlisberger is a better career QB in almost every significant stat element including win percentage 70% vs 57% and has as many rings. And he will need one more ring or several more great seasons, and people don't think he's a lock like Eli is.

So why is it that Eli is a lock, but Ben isn't, even though Ben is clearly better statistically, and in the 4th quarter? (BR has more 4th quarter comebacks and GW drives than eli)

because david tyree caught a ball of his helmet and because mario manningham caught a deep ball on the side line? because wes welker dropped a pass tonight and because asante samuel dropped an interception years ago?

If those 4 plays don't happen perfectly, eli manning is barely farther along in the hall of fame argument than Tony Romo or Phillip Rivers in any way shape or form. Try to find an argument against that, it doesn't exist.

So if you mean to tell me that 4 plays, just 4 plays, (over the course of a career of thousands of plays that were nothing more than tier 2) that came down to mere millimeters hadn't occured, that eli manning wouldn't be any farther along than craig morton? yet you still think he's a hall of fame lock?

anything can happen in football, it's a game of inches. but you can't let 4 plays that came down to inches determine the vast bulk of a player's hall of fame argument. that is my main point.

3 of those plays were lucky, 2 involved skill on eli's part, 2, (maybe 3, depending on what region you hail from) were gifts from the other team. and yet eli manning is a hall of famer because the world thinks 4 plays are more important than 3921 other pass attempts that prove he is nothing more than a tier 2 quarterback, and has played at a tier 2 level for only 2 of his 8 nfl seasons? are you kidding?

that's what 90% of this board is doing, and i want to vomit.

TitanHope
02-06-2012, 01:05 AM
Nobody's yet to present me proof he has the talent! He has the championships. He doesn't have HOF talent, though. Like I keep saying to nauseous levels, 2 great seasons, and that's it. His whole career. 2 seasons. And as for elite talent, if he's elite the tier 1 list looks like this:
-------------------Brady, Manning


-------------------Rodgers

-------------------Brees


















-------------------- Eli

My argument had nothing to do with the HoF. It had to do with Eli now being an elite QB. So disregard the HoF talent and dissecting his entire career. But if you're saying that in order to be an elite player at any point in time, then you must be a future HoF'er, then I'd highly disagree with that. I don't think you are though.

I'd agree with your sub-tier. For me, since we're talking about players who are some of the best in the history of the game, you can't measure the tier based on ceilings. Regardless of Eli, Peyton and Brady would put some QB's who are already in the HoF into a lower tier, so for me, we have to establish it with a floor and just agree that transcendent players are just that. If I did it your way, then I'd be forced to put Peyton and Brady in the top tier, Rodgers and Brees in the second, and then so on, yet most would argue that Rodgers and Brees are elite QB's and belong in the best tier. So we agree that there is one elite tier, with the players in it having a varying level of eliteness. For me, Eli has just broken the cusp and has enough to break into the very back of the room, and his doing so has been a recent event considering over the past 4 seasons, he has put up four consecutive 4,000+ yard seasons, with his most recent being the most impressive, has thrown over 100 TD's, has won two Super Bowls, and has the physical talent of a No. 1 overall pick and mental dexterity to lead his team to victory in clutch moments. And these things are good enough for me to say, yeah, he's enough of a notch above Roethlisberger and Rivers to barely make the elite tier. I don't really have an issue with anyone who disagrees, and this can change if Eli comes out next year and bombs. But if we're talking as of February 2012, then I say yes.

As for the HoF talk, I'm not bothering with that. It's mostly projection as he's got several seasons left to play, and this will be a moot point if he continues to throw for 4,000 yards and 25 TD's season after season, and definitely if he wins another Super Bowl.

Ness
02-06-2012, 01:06 AM
Roethlisberger is going to be a HOFer too.

the 04 qb class might end up being the GOAT. Especially if Rivers wins a ring in the future. Or Schaub.

I forgot Schaub was drafted in the 2004 NFL Draft. That guy is the most underrated QB in the NFL hands down. I hope he gets a ring. He's one of my favorite players. Wish he was a 49er.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 01:12 AM
My argument had nothing to do with the HoF. It had to do with Eli now being an elite QB. So disregard the HoF talent and dissecting his entire career. But if you're saying that in order to be an elite player at any point in time, then you must be a future HoF'er, then I'd highly disagree with that. I don't think you are though.

I'd agree with your sub-tier. For me, since we're talking about players who are some of the best in the history of the game, you can't measure the tier based on ceilings. Regardless of Eli, Peyton and Brady would put some QB's who are already in the HoF into a lower tier, so for me, we have to establish it with a floor and just agree that transcendent players are just that. If I did it your way, then I'd be forced to put Peyton and Brady in the top tier, Rodgers and Brees in the second, and then so on, yet most would argue that Rodgers and Brees are elite QB's and belong in the best tier. So we agree that there is one elite tier, with the players in it having a varying level of eliteness. For me, Eli has just broken the cusp and has enough to break into the very back of the room, and his doing so has been a recent event considering over the past 4 seasons, he has put up four consecutive 4,000+ yard seasons, with his most recent being the most impressive, has thrown over 100 TD's, has won two Super Bowls, and has the physical talent of a No. 1 overall pick and mental dexterity to lead his team to victory in clutch moments. And these things are good enough for me to say, yeah, he's enough of a notch above Roethlisberger and Rivers to barely make the elite tier. I don't really have an issue with anyone who disagrees, and this can change if Eli comes out next year and bombs. But if we're talking as of February 2012, then I say yes.

As for the HoF talk, I'm not bothering with that. It's mostly projection as he's got several seasons left to play, and this will be a moot point if he continues to throw for 4,000 yards and 25 TD's season after season, and definitely if he wins another Super Bowl.

thanks for the well thought out argument. i just have a hard time grasping that when you look at the vast majority of his work, he is no farther along the tier list than Rivers or Romo. Yet because Asante Samuel dropped an interception and tyree made the helmet catch/ because Wes Welker dropped a pass tonight and eli made a great throw, he is elevated above them.

just because of 4 plays in a sample of 3921 career snaps not including running plays. i think that's atrocious.

eli will be in the HOF with another ring. With a bunch of 25 TD 14 int seasons and no ring, I disagree. That's Roethlisberger #'s, and nobody is calling his name to the podium unless he wins another ring.

Ngatachance92
02-06-2012, 01:15 AM
You can't spell Elite without Eli.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 01:16 AM
You can't spell Elite without Eli.

You can't spell Elite with Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, or Tom Brady. Or Dan Marino. Or John Elway. Or Joe Montana. Or....

MiWolves
02-06-2012, 01:27 AM
I guess stats are important so I'll show you one.
Playoff Numbers
Eli Manning -16 TD 8 INT W/L=7-3 2 SB wins
Peyton Manning - 29 TD 19 INT W/L=9-10 1 SB win
John Elway - 27 TD 22 INT W/L=14-8 2 SB wins

Using your logic Peyton Manning, and Elway aren't as elite in the biggest games. While Eli Manning is way more elite in the playoffs using numbers of variables.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 01:32 AM
I guess stats are important so I'll show you one.
Playoff Numbers
Eli Manning -16 TD 8 INT W/L=7-3 2 SB wins
Peyton Manning - 29 TD 19 INT W/L=9-10 1 SB win
John Elway - 27 TD 22 INT W/L=14-8 2 SB wins

Using your logic Peyton Manning, and Elway aren't as elite in the biggest games. While Eli Manning is way more elite in the playoffs using numbers of variables.

that's not my logic at all. tell me how that is my logic, quote me or something.

Manning and Elway have the rings that eli does. (the only reason that eli is in this conversation to begin with, remember that he's an above average regular season QB at best)

but they have more then that, they have something eli does not have. they trump eli in every single element of quarterback play on a snap-by-snap basis, not just by playoff wins and losses. so does dan marino, who has no superbowls. how dare anyone put eli in the same shrine room as any of those 3.

you've just shown me a stat to show that Eli was better in the big game. without considering that both elway and peyton have played in twice the playoff games as eli. with elway having far less offensive help than eli in his first 3 appearances in the superbowl. with peyton having no defense ever. i use stats, but they don't have loopholes.

PoopSandwich
02-06-2012, 01:32 AM
and you're the one not even using stats that have relevance! the stats that i use add to my argument, whereas the 2 stats you use are just "he's one of few to ever do that, surefire lock!" so tell me why TD and Romanowski don't make the HOF? Do go ahead.

I mean you're effectively saying eli is clutch and that he beat the best team in nfl history (so did Jared Lorenzen and David Tyree! football is a team sport!)

He isn't a scrub. that is your argument. no he isn't, but he isn't close to a hall of famer talent wise.

That's my bag baby, at least i have a sucky argument. you don't even have one, just an opinion.

Seriously, why isn't bill romanowski in the HOF? Why isn't TD? Because they aren't quarterbacks? You've yet to refute anything or attack any central points, just contradiction. here's a little debate 101

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/156715/argpyr.jpg

I attacked central points that you don't think are central points, you instead resort to statistical analysis for everything, and then when stats refute your argument you say that stats don't tell the entire story in John Elway's case.

You have no balance to your argument at all, and therefore it is pointless to argue with you.

TitanHope
02-06-2012, 01:35 AM
thanks for the well thought out argument. i just have a hard time grasping that when you look at the vast majority of his work, he is no farther along the tier list than Rivers or Romo. Yet because Asante Samuel dropped an interception and tyree made the helmet catch/ because Wes Welker dropped a pass tonight and eli made a great throw, he is elevated above them.

just because of 4 plays in a sample of 3921 career snaps not including running plays. i think that's atrocious.

eli will be in the HOF with another ring. With a bunch of 25 TD 14 int seasons and no ring, I disagree. That's Roethlisberger #'s, and nobody is calling his name to the podium unless he wins another ring.

Yeah, but you can't fault lucky plays against him. Everyone gets those, and everyone gets their bad luck. Plus, in order for Tyree to make that catch, Eli had to make a play on his own to even give Tyree a chance to begin with by breaking the tackles of three New England defenders. Even Joe Montana had "The Catch" (although I think that was in the NFC Championship against the Cowboys, not the SB, but hopefully ya get what I'm saying). Sometimes, you need historic plays to succeed, and for QB's, succeeding and winning a Super Bowl is the great equalizer. It's just different for them, and a guy who can do that not once but twice can change his status and turn him into one of those QB's who you say, "Yes, he is capable of winning you a Super Bowl," which is a label that can turn a normally good player into a great player. That's just kinda the way things are, and I agree that if Eli had no rings, people wouldn't see him as elite.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 01:39 AM
I attacked central points that you don't think are central points, you instead resort to statistical analysis for everything, and then when stats refute your argument you say that stats don't tell the entire story in John Elway's case.

You have no balance to your argument at all, and therefore it is pointless to argue with you.

no, you didn't. you didn't you just used the same argument over and over.

eli manning has won 2 superbowls. eli manning has 2 superbowl MVP's. every quarterback who has won 2 mvp's as a QB is in the hall of fame.

that is literally, in every way, shape and form the entirety of your argument. you have nothing else to bring to the table, you have nothing else to offer, and you cannot deny the fact that eli manning won at least 1 of his 2 superbowls because of freak plays.

we have been talking for 2 plus hours and you cannot do anything but say that.

your only response to this is that "that's not true, superbowls are super important"

it's a game of inches, but inches of freak plays during a superbowl do not decide if a player makes the hall of fame. inches add up to an argument if the inches gained were gained with skill over the entirety of a career, not 2 games.

you have nothing. stop it now. stop it. big games are important. big plays are huge. they may be the most significant part of a player's legacy. but they mean nothing if the rest of the legacy is literally on par with phillip rivers or tony romo.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 01:43 AM
Yeah, but you can't fault lucky plays against him. Everyone gets those, and everyone gets their bad luck.

Why not? 4 plays out of 4000 are the only reason he is even within a continent of canton. Do you know of any other players that have earned the vast majority of their canton eligibility because of a dropped interception by the oposition and a dropped pass by an opposing WR?

Plus, in order for Tyree to make that catch, Eli had to make a play on his own to even give Tyree a chance to begin with by breaking the tackles of three New England defenders. Even Joe Montana had "The Catch" (although I think that was in the NFC Championship against the Cowboys, not the SB, but hopefully ya get what I'm saying).

Right, but look at the rest of Montana's work. It's ******* art. I did credit manning for that Tyree play, if you look at my other posts. It just never would have occured if Asante Samuel hadn't dropped an INT that would have retardedly put him into hall of fame contention, because people use 1 play to judge the work of a career.

Sometimes, you need historic plays to succeed, and for QB's, succeeding and winning a Super Bowl is the great equalizer. It's just different for them, and a guy who can do that not once but twice can change his status and turn him into one of those QB's who you say, "Yes, he is capable of winning you a Super Bowl," which is a label that can turn a normally good player into a great player. That's just kinda the way things are, and I agree that if Eli had no rings, people wouldn't see him as elite.

Winning superbowls certainly transforms the good into the great. It transformed Dilfer from one of the league's worst to someone who is remembered and considered below average but servicable.

But it shouldn't transfer eli manning from Matt Schaub status to Canton. Especially when the superbowls could have gone either way. That's a little silly.

Rosebud
02-06-2012, 01:48 AM
in 2012, he is not on the brady, rodgers, manning (peyton variety) brees level.

he is tier 2. you tell me, is that elite?

Actually in 2012 to he drastically outperformed all of 4 of those guys in the playoffs...it's kinda how the giants won the superbowl...

whose to say Eli isn't just as complimentary? Seriously.

The dude has a 1.58 to 1 TD-INT Ratio for his career and has never even eclipsed a 30 TD season without throwing 25 picks. Heck, he's never thrown more than 25 TD's without a minimum 14 INT's.

Matt Schaub is a better regular season QB with as many rings as marino, and you want to put Eli in the HOF because of 2 rings?

Basically anyone who watches the giants play? I don't think I care for this troll.

PoopSandwich
02-06-2012, 01:50 AM
no, you didn't. you didn't you just used the same argument over and over.

Do you have any idea what irony is?

eli manning has won 2 superbowls. eli manning has 2 superbowl MVP's. every quarterback who has won 2 mvp's as a QB is in the hall of fame.

Find where I say that, please. Do yourself a ******* favor and learn how to read posts, you generate these arguments up and read what you want to read.

that is literally, in every way, shape and form the entirety of your argument. you have nothing else to bring to the table, you have nothing else to offer, and you cannot deny the fact that eli manning won at least 1 of his 2 superbowls because of freak plays.

Oh really, that is my entire argument.

I said:

He is an elite player, one of the most clutch players of all time, had one of the most clutch seasons of all time.

Quarterbacked against quite possibly the best team ever, an undefeated team at the time, and won.

Took a team that had no identity and caught fire and won another Super Bowl against one of the best quarterbacks and coaches ever.

I also shot down your ridiculous argument that his QBR is all that matters by comparing it to your legendary QB who has comparable stats (Eli actually has better.) and you counter argue by saying that the first time John Elway got help he won the super bowl. One could then take that argument and say well if John Elway was so ******* good why couldn't he do it with a lesser cast like Peyton Manning had to.

I also said that players like Trent Dilfer come along and get carried along, that is not the case, but your reading comprehension is so lack luster that you managed to completely skip that and continue on by fapping relentlessly to your stats instead of actually using your eyes to see what happens on a football field.

we have been talking for 2 plus hours and you cannot do anything but say that.

No, see you are the one who just ignores everyone's point on why Eli is good and say that everyone only has one argument, when there have been plenty presented to you.

your only response to this is that "that's not true, superbowls are super important"

You mean winning the biggest game in the entire sport garners some sort of recognition? No way.

it's a game of inches, but inches of freak plays during a superbowl do not decide if a player makes the hall of fame. inches add up to an argument if the inches gained were gained with skill over the entirety of a career, not 2 games.

Coming from a fan who has never seen his team win a playoff game I'm pretty ******* sure I would take a fluke 2-0 win if it meant the Browns winning the super bowl and LeBron James as our QB.

you have nothing. stop it now. stop it. big games are important. big plays are huge. they may be the most significant part of a player's legacy. but they mean nothing if the rest of the legacy is literally on par with phillip rivers or tony romo.

Except Phillip Rivers and Tony Romo can't do **** to win the big game, and haven't. Your argumentative skills are beyond pathetic, because you can tell me that I don't have an argument doesn't mean I actually don't have one. Also, an opinion is pretty much the same thing as an argument, it's ******* sports, this isn't an exact science. Believe it or not, we all have opinions, nothing is factual.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 01:51 AM
Actually in 2012 to he drastically outperformed all of 4 of those guys in the playoffs...it's kinda how the giants won the superbowl...

No he didn't, his team did. His ******* team did. Look up the stats, all the stat lines are eerily similar.

Football is a team sport. The Giants won the Superbowl because of a multitude of things, including the best WR and DL combo in the world.

Rosebud
02-06-2012, 01:54 AM
No he didn't, his team did. His ******* team did. Look up the stats, all the stat lines are eerily similar.

Football is a team sport. The Giants won the Superbowl because of a multitude of things, including the best WR and DL combo in the world.

Well **** man, since you have the stats why did any of us bother to actually watch the games?

Rosebud
02-06-2012, 01:56 AM
Were we watching the same game? Eli made some terrific stick throws into tight windows that were perfectly placed. I don't recall a single play all game where his receiver bailed him out on a poor throw by making an amazing catch.

Seriously, some of those throws, that he snuck into his receivers, made me momentarily mad that he even took those risks.

PoopSandwich
02-06-2012, 01:57 AM
Well **** man, since you have the stats why did any of us bother to actually watch the games?

I'm just gonna start looking at the box scores after games instead of actually watching them, and I really don't care who wins the games to be honest. I just want to see who threw for the most yards, because this year throwing for 5k+ yards or having the best passer rating ever and putting up the big stats was a guaranteed super bowl championship.

FUNBUNCHER
02-06-2012, 02:03 AM
Do you think Eli isn't a lock for the HOF??

There are several QBs currently playing that probably end up in Canton when their careers are over. IMO this will be looked upon as the greatest era for HOF QBs in NFL history with so many Canton worthy QBs all contemporaries of each other.

It would sort of be like turning on your TV any random fall Sunday, and being able to see games with Marcus Allen, Earl Campbell, Barry Sanders, Walter Payton and Emmitt Smith all playing in the same season.

Brady/Peyton/Rodgers/Brees/Roethlisberger/Philip Rivers are IMO all future HOFers.

And so is Eli. Manning.
Of that group, only Brady, Eli and Big Ben have 2+ rings.

You take Eli off the Giants, and maybe they win 6 games a year. That's not a plug-and-play offense in NY, like in NE or GB where their backups have been successful running the same system.

Wait until you start hearing people discuss openly whether or not Eli is actually a better big game QB than Brady.(YES)
If I get to choose my QB in a championship game between Eli and Brady, I'm taking the guy who keeps stealing Tom Terrific's lunch money.

This is the second time Brady got chumped in the SB by a scrappy Giants football team.

Forget about arguing how 'elite' Eli Manning is.
I'm beginning to wonder how overrated Tom Brady might be.

Rosebud
02-06-2012, 02:10 AM
I'm just gonna start looking at the box scores after games instead of actually watching them, and I really don't care who wins the games to be honest. I just want to see who threw for the most yards, because this year throwing for 5k+ yards or having the best passer rating ever and putting up the big stats was a guaranteed super bowl championship.

And it's not like he puts up bad numbers. He put up big numbers this year, absolutely ridiculous 4th quarter numbers and has consistently been one of the best 4th quarter, late in the half and 2-minute drive QBs in the NFL. He's a part of one of the league's most vertical passing games and sports one of the best and most accurate deep balls in teh NFL right now, has a brilliant grasp for reading defenses and running his retardedly complex offense. Has great pocket presence and just doesn't get rattled. I honestly wouldn't trade him for any guy in the league anymore. I used to say I wouldn't trade him for anyone but Tom Brady, but right now Eli's earned his spot in that top group. They are his peers.

Cudders
02-06-2012, 02:24 AM
This argument is a semantic debate of the label elite at its core.

If were defining elite as the current best of the best, then I would err on the side that hes not quite there yet. If the parameters are expanded out to quarterbacks that Im supremely confident can carry my team come Sunday, then hes been there for longer than most realize. At the end of the day, I think Elis actually been underrated most of his career. Hes a true franchise quarterback, not the recipient of a trite moniker handed out by the sports media to the majority of starting signal-callers. And he has cemented himself as a top five quarterback in the NFL with his recent performances. If that fits your definition of elite, then his status is inarguable. Hes elite. Case closed. If your definition is qualified with an even higher degree of exclusivity, then his status is open to some debate for now.

Overall, I think were witnessing some all-time great quarterbacking in the NFL, and Im sure a good amount of it can be attributed to the offensive bias legislated from the competition committee. But, inflated or not, weve got a real handful of quarterbacks that are destined for Canton in the league right now. In comparison to the top of that tier, Eli lags a little. But he also has a lot of football left ahead of him to continue strengthening his rsum and I have little doubt that he will remain in this kind of class. In another era, I dont believe this is such a hot-button issue.

MiWolves
02-06-2012, 02:24 AM
that's not my logic at all. tell me how that is my logic, quote me or something.

Manning and Elway have the rings that eli does. (the only reason that eli is in this conversation to begin with, remember that he's an above average regular season QB at best)

but they have more then that, they have something eli does not have. they trump eli in every single element of quarterback play on a snap-by-snap basis, not just by playoff wins and losses. so does dan marino, who has no superbowls. how dare anyone put eli in the same shrine room as any of those 3.

you've just shown me a stat to show that Eli was better in the big game. without considering that both elway and peyton have played in twice the playoff games as eli. with elway having far less offensive help than eli in his first 3 appearances in the superbowl. with peyton having no defense ever. i use stats, but they don't have loopholes.

Are you ******** me.. The biggest games are where legends are made. The main argument when a player doesn't make the HoF is SB wins. Sure stats are important. But if Joe Namath can make it to the HoF based on a SB win where he guaranteed a win. John Elway's best statistical year doesn't beat Manning's best statistical year at all. If anything those receivers are the product of Manning. Using the argument that Elway never had an offense is negated with the Raven's SB win because they don't have an offense either.

Jimmy
02-06-2012, 02:34 AM
Do you have any idea what irony is?

I think you're hinting at the fact that I continue to use my points and statistics over and over. I think I get a free pass, because my points actually make sense. more on that below.

what i said to piss you off:
eli manning has won 2 superbowls. eli manning has 2 superbowl MVP's. every quarterback who has won 2 mvp's as a QB is in the hall of fame.
your response:
Find where I say that, please. Do yourself a ******* favor and learn how to read posts, you generate these arguments up and read what you want to read.

You're actually right on this one. I just confused you with every other poster who is on your side, who used the 2 ring argument as their entire argument. All of the posts quoted below, with the exception of maybe 2 are the ENTIRE quote, and serve as the ENTIRE argument for that poster. But seriously, every other ************ is using this argument EXCLUSIVELY as their point.

Eli is 31, has two super bowls


And Eli is a 2 time SB MVP. Every other qb to do that is a first ballot HOFer.

The guy has 2 SB's now, so does he get into the "elite" club?

He's going to Canton. It's almost a lock. Every qb who has 2+ SBs has gotten into Canton other than Jim Plunkett. And Eli's career is far superior to his so I'll be shocked if he doesn't wind up in Canton eventually.

eli has played 8 seasons. he's won 2 rings. and he's been prety great in all others. so basically, he's won the whole ******* thing 25% of the years he's played...

but let's move on from that and move on to your much much much more complex, less one-sided argument

Oh really, that is my entire argument.

I said:

He is an elite player, one of the most clutch players of all time, had one of the most clutch seasons of all time.

So your entire argument isn't exclusively that he has 2 superbowls and 2 mvp's... It's worse. It's exclusively that because "he" beat the patriots and because he had one of the most clutch seasons of all time that he deserves to be in Canton. You use a superbowl game that was won because Asante dropped an interception that, ironically enough, would have put him in Canton discussions (because people look past the work of a career), as the bulk of your argument, and you supplement it with ONE season of clutch. Wowee. Let us count all the times you resort to the same argument. I have resorted to the same argumentative tactics argument myself, but you have yet to refute my actual claims with anything more than your "central argument" that eli has won 2 superbowl rings as a clutch player this year and beat the best team of all time years ago. let's count the number of times you use this point and only this point to refute me.

Eli is 31, has two super bowls, and has put together one of the most clutch seasons in NFL history. You are using stats, not your eyes, this is where you fail.

Quarterbacked against quite possibly the best team ever, an undefeated team at the time, and won.

Took a team that had no identity and caught fire and won another Super Bowl against one of the best quarterbacks and coaches ever.


He knocked off an 18-0 team that was going into the Super Bowl as the best team in NFL history and then this year takes a 9-7 team through the playoffs and wins again. Yet he probably isn't worthy because you don't think his career stats are good enough.

He did this. He did that. He did this. No credit to the team when credit to the team is blatantly due.
Furthermore, David Tyree "wide-receivered" against the greatest team of all time, and won too! Does that make him Canton eligible? What about someone who had a larger role that year? Do they get any hall of fame love? Or are we just giving Eli the bulk of the credit because he's a quarterback? Isn't that a little odd to you? Never seen someone give so much credit to a player who got to where he was, not because he was elite all year, but because his team had chemistry and stepped up as a collective unit.

I also shot down your ridiculous argument that his QBR is all that matters by comparing it to your legendary QB who has comparable stats (Eli actually has better.) and you counter argue by saying that the first time John Elway got help he won the super bowl. One could then take that argument and say well if John Elway was so ******* good why couldn't he do it with a lesser cast like Peyton Manning had to.

I'll use a little of your own venom for this response below. I will note that there is a slight difference between Elway and Manning, although I don't blame you for missing it. John Elway was a Hall of Fame lock with or without a superbowl, much like Dan Marino. Like I always say, Eli Manning is Phillip Rivers with 2 rings. Just a miniscule difference between Elway and Manning though. Glad you brought that up and provided such a terrible argument. Not false or wrong since there are no stats, but just a bad, poorly thought our argument. Eli can't touch Elway, want me to provide a grocery list why? Most 4th quarter comebacks ever? Stop there, even though there's 20 other things I could list? Thought so...

this is what you should do: read your own post below, and tell me where i exclusively use QBR as my argument.

Find where I say that, please. Do yourself a ******* favor and learn how to read posts, you generate these arguments up and read what you want to read.

His QBR is all that matters in my mind, huh? What about all the other things that matter to me, like, I don't know, regular season stats, overall winning percentage, TD to INT ratio, regular season game winning drives, yards? You know, all those categories that would ******* humilate Eli if you were to ever compare his career work to actual Hall of Famers and future fall of famers...

I also said that players like Trent Dilfer come along and get carried along, that is not the case, but your reading comprehension is so lack luster that you managed to completely skip that and continue on by fapping relentlessly to your stats instead of actually using your eyes to see what happens on a football field.


Eli Manning was carried along to a much lesser extent than Dilfer. Manning is far superior to Dilfer, but wouldn't have a superbowl without the best defensive line in the league and the best WR corps in the league. Practically every other great QB (Elway, Montana, etc.) has instances of being "carried along," but the difference between them and Eli is that they were great before they were carried along.

No, see you are the one who just ignores everyone's point on why Eli is good and say that everyone only has one argument, when there have been plenty presented to you.

No I don't, I just mistook you for every other poster on this board whose argument is that Eli has 2 rings. Big deal. Your argument is worse. "He" beat the patriots (best team EVARRRRRRR) and "he" carried his team thru the playoffs this year.


You mean winning the biggest game in the entire sport garners some sort of recognition? No way.

Once again, I think superbowls are the ultimate capstone to a great career. They are not mandatory, see Dan Marino, among others. They are VERY important. BUT they are not the only thing that matters. They should not be used to judge 90% of a player's canton resume. If they were, Bill Romanowski (4x champ, 2x pro bowler), Pepper Johnson (5x champ, 2x pro bowler), Marv Flemming (5x champ) would all be in Canton with as many pro-bowls as Eli, but TWO TIMES MORE rings.


Coming from a fan who has never seen his team win a playoff game I'm pretty ******* sure I would take a fluke 2-0 win if it meant the Browns winning the super bowl and LeBron James as our QB.

I don't like you.

http://mollyyanity.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/byner.jpg

PoopSandwich
02-06-2012, 10:00 AM
I stopped reading half way through your post.

You just start generating these arguments based off of something I didn't say and run with it every time.

This time, resorting to me saying that Eli single handily beat the Patriots twice, and that my argument is weak because it is "exclusively" that he is a two time super bowl champion as a quarterback for a team while also putting up good numbers.

As for the picture at the bottom, good work. You have shown your maturity level throughout the entirety of this thread and I would expect nothing less from you at this point. Maybe if you post some more graphs with internet arguments and pictures from games where I wasn't old enough to even witness you could really knock my morale down and convince me you are right.

whatadai
02-06-2012, 10:11 AM
Seriously, some of those throws, that he snuck into his receivers, made me momentarily mad that he even took those risks.

Maybe it's because of watching Eli over the years...but I don't think he knew those risks were there. The problem with Eli was that he was never consistent, he would give you a great game then a dud. I never believed he would be able to get over that little hump to become "elite." He's always taken risks in the past and half of the time they turned out horribly. I know he's been doing it all season, but let me see him do it for another season consecutively before I start calling him elite. I remember when we were debating the same thing about Rodgers after his Super Bowl win last year when he's been a much better quarterback than Eli over the past 4 years, his consistency made it easy for me to call him elite, I need the same from Eli to call him that. I need the same consistency to believe he's finally passed that hump and those throws weren't due to luck and ****** DBs.

Abaddon
02-06-2012, 10:14 AM
I believe in Eli...
I believe he can touch the sky...

Rosebud
02-06-2012, 10:35 AM
Maybe it's because of watching Eli over the years...but I don't think he knew those risks were there. The problem with Eli was that he was never consistent, he would give you a great game then a dud. I never believed he would be able to get over that little hump to become "elite." He's always taken risks in the past and half of the time they turned out horribly. I know he's been doing it all season, but let me see him do it for another season consecutively before I start calling him elite. I remember when we were debating the same thing about Rodgers after his Super Bowl win last year when he's been a much better quarterback than Eli over the past 4 years, his consistency made it easy for me to call him elite, I need the same from Eli to call him that. I need the same consistency to believe he's finally passed that hump and those throws weren't due to luck and ****** DBs.

Eli's consistency wasn't really ever a problem. He was always great late in games or when running the two minute drill. Eli's problem has always been the system he works with.

The passing concepts are absurdly complex, so there's a lot of miscommunication because of receivers making the wrong read, the offense is very vertical which forces a lot of risk on Eli and gets really run heavy in the redzone, so that Eli didn't get the redzone TDs other great QBs rack up to offset the picks they get. Eli has consistently played great for years now and a couple bad games a year that all QBs have don't offset that.

bearfan
02-06-2012, 11:01 AM
I like the idea that we're seeing an all-time high of HOF QBs playing. Is Eli elite? Yes. He has shown that he can carry his team when they need him to, and do it on the biggest stage in the NFL. Is Eli the best? No. Top 5? Debatable. But being between 4-6 in this current league is nothing to scoff at. So when it comes down to it, he is an ELIte QB.

On a side note, I have seen mention of comparing RBs not in the HOF to Eli. I don't care for the argument of Terrell Davis not getting in, but RBs are not as important as the QB position. I would imagine that it will be even harder for an RB to get in because of the premium placed on QBs and the fact that RBs can be plugged in for the most part.

I do have one question for Jimmy: I see that TD has been a semifinalist for the HOF (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaviTe00.htm), so assuming that he eventually will get in, will your argument then change?

DraftSavant
02-06-2012, 11:06 AM
Messageboards are so messageboard-y sometimes.

ALSO, WHO THE **** IS SAYING BIG BEN WON'T MAKE IT TO THE HOF? PRETTY SURE HE WILL, YOU FUCKNUTS.

And both are better than Rivers, who has been overrated because of fantasy football for basically 4-5 years now.

JoeJoeBrown
02-06-2012, 11:09 AM
Eli is very good. Overall, I don't think he is elite.

He is one the greatest QBs in NFL history in terms of being unflappable or clutch.

People act like he is the only reason that the Giant's won that game. The Giant's D, particularly their front line, did a great job. The Giant's also rushed very well in the game.

Eli also has some fantastic receivers.

This isn't to denigrate Eli, but he is not a robot back there like the elite guys.
He's closer to Rapistburger than to Rodgers or Brady.

Brady is one of the greatest ever. He's won SB's with chopped liver for WRs.

Brady did blow it last night in the 4th. Made some bad throws.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
02-06-2012, 11:11 AM
I believe in Eli...
I believe he can touch the sky...

I believe in a thing called Eli
Just listen to the rhythm of my heart
There's a chance he can get a touchdown
Can he make it 'fore the clock runs down?

I believe in a thing called EEEEEEEELIIIII-III
Ooooo, oooooo

I drunkenly developed that one last night after a commercial with the guy from the Darkness in it.

Anyway, back to Eli. The dude has TWICE now, led game winning TOUCHDOWN drives to win Super bowls in the final minute. He didn't get it to the 30 and let arguably the greatest kicker of all time get him his SBs. He got into the endzone and took the trophy. And Jimmy, you're saying 4 plays out of however many thousand in his career are what's making us even have this argument. I respond by saying, that's oversimplifying things, and Eli's part in the Tyree catch was, IMO, more impressive than Tyree's. I thought he was sacked for sure.

But if we really want to play that game, we can look at Tom Brady. If Vinatieri misses a kick, if the Patriots D wasn't all-time great at the beginning of the decade, we might be looking at a guy without rings. Obviously, those things didn't happen, and Brady has his three rings. We could play what-if until we're blue in the face, but the bottom line is Eli went and led those game winning touchdown drives, getting his team into the endzone in the final minute to win two super bowls. Non-elite QBs don't do that.

It really just comes down to watching him play. Just look at the SF game. Non-elite QBs don't respond the way he did to all that pressure. Hell, most of the other elite guys probably play a lot worse than Eli did against the constant pressure he was facing. He got hit what, 20 times? That would rattle almost anyone. But Eli just kept battling through the rain and was able to help lead his team to victory. Obviously Kyle Williams, Jacquan Williams and Devin Thomas played a huge part in deciding that game as well, but any team winning the SB gets those kind of timely plays(although maybe not usually as insane as those two).

You can use career numbers to prove he's not on the level of the absolute ATGs, at this point, for his career, but it does nothing to tell us if, right now, he is an elite player at his position. I, for one think he is, based on the reasoning I laid about above. He has tremendous poise, leadership ability, can make every throw and do it accurately, he's intelligent... I really don't know what else to look for. Sure, his regular season numbers aren't as pretty as the 3 guys who are above him, but his record speaks for itself. When the chips are down and you need a big drive, Eli is as good as they get.

ImBrotherCain
02-06-2012, 11:30 AM
I tried to read as much of this thread as I could but a lot of the posts are just unappealing blocks of text so forgive me if someone has already said what I am about to.

People often use SB wins as a crutch to say how great a player is one way or another. I hate using Super Bowl wins to justify if a player is Elite or not. Sure we have great QBs that have won many Super Bowls (Brady, Montana, Elway etc.) but we have seen great QBs that have never won one (Kelly and Marino) and others that have won one but would never be considered great. The point is that I don't think there are many people out there that would make the argument that Eli or Big Ben is a better QB than Marino based upon SB wins alone.

With that said in the discussion of whether Eli is Elite or not I have a hard time deciphering. I think that after the performance he had down the stretch of the regular season and the playoffs that Eli is an Elite QB. In my opinion he is right on the line either way and has to maintain that level of play next season to solidify his position amongst the best.

DraftSavant
02-06-2012, 11:39 AM
I believe in a thing called Eli
Just listen to the rhythm of my heart
There's a chance he can get a touchdown
Can he make it 'fore the clock runs down?

I believe in a thing called EEEEEEEELIIIII-III
Ooooo, oooooo

I drunkenly developed that one last night after a commercial with the guy from the Darkness in it.

Anyway, back to Eli. The dude has TWICE now, led game winning TOUCHDOWN drives to win Super bowls in the final minute. He didn't get it to the 30 and let arguably the greatest kicker of all time get him his SBs. He got into the endzone and took the trophy. And Jimmy, you're saying 4 plays out of however many thousand in his career are what's making us even have this argument. I respond by saying, that's oversimplifying things, and Eli's part in the Tyree catch was, IMO, more impressive than Tyree's. I thought he was sacked for sure.

But if we really want to play that game, we can look at Tom Brady. If Vinatieri misses a kick, if the Patriots D wasn't all-time great at the beginning of the decade, we might be looking at a guy without rings. Obviously, those things didn't happen, and Brady has his three rings. We could play what-if until we're blue in the face, but the bottom line is Eli went and led those game winning touchdown drives, getting his team into the endzone in the final minute to win two super bowls. Non-elite QBs don't do that.

It really just comes down to watching him play. Just look at the SF game. Non-elite QBs don't respond the way he did to all that pressure. Hell, most of the other elite guys probably play a lot worse than Eli did against the constant pressure he was facing. He got hit what, 20 times? That would rattle almost anyone. But Eli just kept battling through the rain and was able to help lead his team to victory. Obviously Kyle Williams, Jacquan Williams and Devin Thomas played a huge part in deciding that game as well, but any team winning the SB gets those kind of timely plays(although maybe not usually as insane as those two).

You can use career numbers to prove he's not on the level of the absolute ATGs, at this point, for his career, but it does nothing to tell us if, right now, he is an elite player at his position. I, for one think he is, based on the reasoning I laid about above. He has tremendous poise, leadership ability, can make every throw and do it accurately, he's intelligent... I really don't know what else to look for. Sure, his regular season numbers aren't as pretty as the 3 guys who are above him, but his record speaks for itself. When the chips are down and you need a big drive, Eli is as good as they get.

STOP USING YOUR EYES TO WATCH THE GAME, SHITHEAD.

Forenci
02-06-2012, 12:11 PM
No he didn't, his team did. His ******* team did. Look up the stats, all the stat lines are eerily similar.

Football is a team sport. The Giants won the Superbowl because of a multitude of things, including the best WR and DL combo in the world.

Your argument is silly. You're trying to break down a QB based on a few plays that did or didn't happen. So what Asante dropped an interception? This happens hundreds of times during the course of a season for even the most elite QB's. Just because you decide to exemplify one instance during 4000 plays that the ball was almost intercepted doesn't mean it defines his career.

Missed plays happen. You can't think "what if" in these situations because it circular reasoning that never ends. It didn't happen. That's all the matters.

And your whole argument about the team stuff is silly too. Everyone relies on team play to succeed, even if you're considered an elite QB like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. Would Tom Brady be considered one of the greatest of all time had he not had a mastermind head coach and superb defense? Would he be considered clutch and elite had he not had an amazingly clutch kicker? Or what if there wasn't the tuck rule?

All seemingly pointless things to consider. Would Peyton Manning already be considered the best QB of all time if he had the Ravens or Patriots defense for the past decade? Maybe, because it means he probably would have had more Super Bowl rings. But there's no way of knowing. You can only base your evidence on what DID happens or was has happened.

Your argument using stats is far more valid, but there are still always flaws to that as well. I'm one of those people who has never thought that winning rings meant you're automatically better than someone else. Eli has proven to be one of the most clutch QB's in the league. He's put up great numbers and proven to be one of the smartest and toughest QB's around. Is he a HOF right now? No. Is he an elite QB right now? Possibly. But both of these arguments hinge on his success going forward.

You're trying to base a large portion of your argument on things that could be argued for just about any QB. Eli may have had an elite receiving corps, but he also may have elevated the play of that WR corps just as much through his own play. He also had a ****** O-Line. He also carried his team to the playoffs almost the entire year when the defense was a major liability.

bigbluedefense
02-06-2012, 12:20 PM
I'm not gonna add anything to the convo, I mean everything has pretty much been said already, for both sides.

But I do find revisionist history to be funny. Now Eli has the best WR core in the league. Funny, I could have sworn the Packers had that. Not to mention everyone was killing the Giants (including myself for a short while) for not re-signing Smith, or Boss (I was ok with letting Boss go). I highly doubt anyone thought we had the best weapons in the league when the season started. Hell, to think that even now is silly.

It was always something. First it was "all he does is throw it high to Plax!111"

Then it was "oh he has great WRs!!111"

Then after he lost those WRs, it was "Oh he has even betterzz WRs!!11"

Not to mention the "it's all the runz gamez!!!"

or "he haz the best olinez!!11"

All of which were never true. All the pieces around Eli has constantly been changing. The one constant was Eli himself. Great qbs make their weapons look better than they are. Eli has done that his entire career.

What is Shaun OHara and Rich Seuburt doing right now? I thought those were big losses? Yeah, they were so dominant no team in the league wanted to even touch them, and forced them into retirement.

What did Toomer do when we let him go? Go on to get a 1000 yard season? No, he retired, bc no one wanted him anymore.

What did Plax do? That chapter isn't over yet, but right here right now it's not looking too hot.

What did Shockey do?

What did Steve Smith do?

What did Boss do?


See a trend here?

Eli won a SB with Jake Ballard at TE, a guy who literally runs a 5.0 40, 3 very good WRs, absolutely no run game (dead last in the league), a below average oline, and a defense that was wildly inconsistent all season long until Fewell smartened up towards the end of the season.

And guess what? He'll lose more pieces this offseason. It happens every year, every team has roster turnover. And it won't make a difference. Bc it's always been Eli running the show. Everything around him can and will change over time, but he won't.

Ness
02-06-2012, 12:29 PM
I thought Eli was an elite quarterback before the season started. I was really puzzled with the controversy that the media was trying to stir up about Eli Manning being an elite quarterback or not. I feel like a lot of good quarterbacks that used to be good wouldn't be in today's NFL if they didn't have monster statistics. Troy Aikman, Steve McNair, Mark Brunell, etc.

DraftSavant
02-06-2012, 12:33 PM
I thought Eli was an elite quarterback before the season started. I was really puzzled with the controversy that the media was trying to stir up about Eli Manning being an elite quarterback or not. I feel like a lot of good quarterbacks that used to be good wouldn't be in today's NFL if they didn't have monster statistics. Troy Aikman, Steve McNair, Mark Brunell, etc.

Fantasy football....

D-Unit
02-06-2012, 12:39 PM
Eli is never gonna be accepted like an American darling because he's not good looking, has a cry baby face, talks like he has a short tongue and is conceited about himself.

That said, he's elite.

Ness
02-06-2012, 12:39 PM
Fantasy football....

Still trying to decide if fantasy football is good for the NFL. Or rather, the integrity of the game. Especially with the new rules in place that favor the offense.

Nalej
02-06-2012, 12:41 PM
Eli is never gonna be accepted like an American darling because he's not good looking, has a cry baby face, talks like he has a short tongue and is conceited about himself.

That said, he's elite.

...and that whole draft day fiasco. but yes, he's elite.

scottyboy
02-06-2012, 12:50 PM
that awkward moment when Kevin Boothe starts on your Oline in the super bowl and Eli gets the **** kicked out of him and has no running game.

that even more awkward moment when someone is using LUCK (and not Andrew) to say that Eli isn't elite. If you're using luck in any argument you should just stop right there and re-evaluate your thought process about everything.

People also need to realize, we've got 2 top 10 QB's of ALL TIME playing now, in Brady and Peyton. (peyton's not technically playing now, but still). Rodgers and Brees are well on their way (and also play in very QB happy offenses). Because Eli's not in a glorified spread offense or a top 10 QB of all time means he's not "elite" right now? I call bull ****.

Also, QBR is the most useless at worst stat of all time. Throw that crap out the window.

Also, also, saying Eli's TD numbers aren't that great is silly. Brandon Jacobs is the Giants all time rushing TD leader. Why? Because instead of helping Eli pad his stats inside the 5 with TD's, we just plow it with Fatass Twinkletoes Jacobs.

Punisher
02-06-2012, 12:56 PM
Imagine the NFL today if...

http://www.247sportstalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Eli-Manning-Chargers.jpg

JoeJoeBrown
02-06-2012, 01:17 PM
a defense that was wildly inconsistent all season long until Fewell smartened up towards the end of the season.


It was inconsistent since so many studs were hurt.

Amazing how good Fewell looked when his best players started coming back from injuries. At the end of the season, the giants D started playing to potential as one of the league's best defenses.

BTW, Tom Coughlin is great and the idiots who get on him for losing when his players are hurt make me laugh.

JoeJoeBrown
02-06-2012, 01:19 PM
Imagine the NFL today if...

http://www.247sportstalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Eli-Manning-Chargers.jpg

Imagine today if Eli didn't cry and have his daddy get the bad man to trade him to the team he wanted to play for.

"Daddy, it's not fair, I WANNA PLAY FOR THE GIANTS!"

"OK, Eli, let me see what I can do. Just let me do all of the talking for you."

That behavior right there is one reason that I have with Eli. What a baby. Just like horse-face.

bigbluedefense
02-06-2012, 01:20 PM
It was inconsistent since so many studs were hurt.

Amazing how good Fewell looked when his best players started coming back from injuries. At the end of the season, the giants D started playing to potential as one of the league's best defenses.

BTW, Tom Coughlin is great and the idiots who get on him for losing when his players are hurt make me laugh.

Fewell needed to adjust too. He just runs way too much zone. We're not a zone defense yet he forced it on the unit. When we started ripping off wins at the end of the season, he ran a lot more man coverage.

Even in the SB, we ran zone way too much until after NE scored 17. We basically ran zone for the entire first half and the first drive of the 3rd quarter. Once they scored 17, Fewell went to a lot more man coverage, and they didn't score for the rest of the game.

Health was a huge factor, but Fewell's willingness to run man coverage instead of his Tampa 2 was a huge factor as well.

DraftSavant
02-06-2012, 01:22 PM
Fewell needed to adjust too. He just runs way too much zone. We're not a zone defense yet he forced it on the unit. When we started ripping off wins at the end of the season, he ran a lot more man coverage.

Even in the SB, we ran zone way too much until after NE scored 17. We basically ran zone for the entire first half and the first drive of the 3rd quarter. Once they scored 17, Fewell went to a lot more man coverage, and they didn't score for the rest of the game.

Health was a huge factor, but Fewell's willingness to run man coverage instead of his Tampa 2 was a huge factor as well.

They were doing a lot of interesting cover 3 concepts that I liked out of big nickel.

Basically, they were running a Tampa 2 invert. MIKE taking deep middle, CBs taking deep 3rds, with SAM and the two safeties playing buzz/hook/curl/force.

Actually worked pretty nice since NE had absolutely nobody that could get vertical, and were basically trying to feed Hernandez, Welker, and Woodhead underneath.

Punisher
02-06-2012, 01:24 PM
That behavior right there is one reason that I have with Eli. What a baby. Just like horse-face.

Take that back!

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/john-elway-tim-tebow.jpg

Xenos
02-06-2012, 01:26 PM
Umm...both are going to the HOF...

And Eli is a 2 time SB MVP. Every other qb to do that is a first ballot HOFer.

Again, it's not really a question of if Eli will make it. He's pretty much a lock for the HOF now, it's a question of whether he deserves to make it. I won't argue that, bc quite frankly, his career isn't over yet, so we can't really say if he deserves it or not yet bc his final chapters have yet to be written.

But he's basically a lock to make the HOF at this point regardless of his future bc of the precedents set before him.

Precedents change over time though. It's going to be harder for him to make the HOF if he doesn't have at least another few dominant seasons. He doesn't necessarily need to win another Superbowl, but that will lock him for sure.

bigbluedefense
02-06-2012, 01:27 PM
They were doing a lot of interesting cover 3 concepts that I liked out of big nickel.

Basically, they were running a Tampa 2 invert. MIKE taking deep middle, CBs taking deep 3rds, with SAM and the two safeties playing buzz/hook/curl/force.

Actually worked pretty nice since NE had absolutely nobody that could get vertical, and were basically trying to feed Hernandez, Welker, and Woodhead underneath.

You're talking about the first half right? I actually wanted us to jam them more. Those free releases made Brady's presnap reads way too easy in teh first half.

Everyone is killing Brady, but I think it's unfair. The guy has absolutely no WRs outside of Welker running 5 yard routes, his best weapon was a decoy (Gronk shouldn't have played, he hurt them more than he helped them), and a TE who was basically the offense last night. His oline isn't exactly the 90 Cowboys either and they were going against a vastly superior dline. What more could the guy do? I thought he did everything he could.

K Train
02-06-2012, 01:30 PM
i think hes now may a good case for himself, but its super funny how 7-8 weeks ago Eli was right where hes always been around the top 10 in QBs, Coughlin was about to get fired, and the giants were about to miss the playoffs after falling right on their face for half the year. He has some heroics in him thats for sure...but i think its laughable how a few weeks goes by and now all of the sudden eli is on aaron rodgers level and coughlin is a HOF coach.

DraftSavant
02-06-2012, 01:30 PM
:shrug: I guess it depends on what you define as dominance. I think Eli's been consistently dominant since around 2008. It's not a flashy/numbers system for quarterbacks. Hell, Brunell's highest TD output in that system was 20 - in warm weather Jacksonville with two really good and smart receivers who ran that offense perfectly.

Coughlin always, always, always, always will try to achieve balance within his offense and is conservative by nature in the redzone. That has and always will stifle his QB's statistical production.

What people don't see statistically is how difficult that system is for a quarterback to run - let alone run completely at the LOS like Eli does.

DraftSavant
02-06-2012, 01:36 PM
You're talking about the first half right? I actually wanted us to jam them more. Those free releases made Brady's presnap reads way too easy in teh first half.

Everyone is killing Brady, but I think it's unfair. The guy has absolutely no WRs outside of Welker running 5 yard routes, his best weapon was a decoy (Gronk shouldn't have played, he hurt them more than he helped them), and a TE who was basically the offense last night. His oline isn't exactly the 90 Cowboys either and they were going against a vastly superior dline. What more could the guy do? I thought he did everything he could.

I think it was a halftime adjustment once they realized Gronk couldn't challenge them vertically at all. I didn't really notice it in the 1st half - saw way more base Cover 2/3/Quarters.

bigbluedefense
02-06-2012, 01:39 PM
I think it was a halftime adjustment once they realized Gronk couldn't challenge them vertically at all. I didn't really notice it in the 1st half - saw way more base Cover 2/3/Quarters.

I gotta watch it again. I was so into the moment I wasn't as focused on the Xs and Os the first time around.

scottyboy
02-06-2012, 01:39 PM
i think hes now may a good case for himself, but its super funny how 7-8 weeks ago Eli was right where hes always been around the top 10 in QBs, Coughlin was about to get fired, and the giants were about to miss the playoffs after falling right on their face for half the year. He has some heroics in him thats for sure...but i think its laughable how a few weeks goes by and now all of the sudden eli is on aaron rodgers level and coughlin is a HOF coach.

to be fair, all season Giants fans were saying how eli was easily top 10 and moving up fast by carrying the offense but we were just labeled as homers.

and is someone saying Eli's stats suffer because of the conservative playcalling and the system and giving him credit for what he does at the LOS? LOLZ GOOD ONE HOMER. LET ME GUESS, ALL HIS PICKS ARE DROPPED BALLS AND WIND AND BAD ROUTES TOO AMIRITE?

DraftSavant
02-06-2012, 01:43 PM
I gotta watch it again. I was so into the moment I wasn't as focused on the Xs and Os the first time around.

Yeah, I was pretty sober for this SB, so I was Xs and Os out all game. Thought it was a pretty fascinating game schematically, actually.

bigbluedefense
02-06-2012, 01:45 PM
Yeah, I was pretty sober for this SB, so I was Xs and Os out all game. Thought it was a pretty fascinating game schematically, actually.

I caught myself paying more attention to what the Pats were doing schematically this game. I knew it would be a great chess match game for us X and O nerds, just bc of the coaching staffs involved.

I was very impressed with Bellichick's gameplan on defense. It was HOF worthy in my eyes had they won the game.

Jughead10
02-06-2012, 01:47 PM
Imagine today if Eli didn't cry and have his daddy get the bad man to trade him to the team he wanted to play for.

"Daddy, it's not fair, I WANNA PLAY FOR THE GIANTS!"

"OK, Eli, let me see what I can do. Just let me do all of the talking for you."

That behavior right there is one reason that I have with Eli. What a baby. Just like horse-face.

I heard the other day that Kellen Winslow Sr. told Archie after the trade happened, that he would have done the same thing.

DraftSavant
02-06-2012, 01:49 PM
I heard the other day that Kellen Winslow Sr. told Archie after the trade happened, that he would have done the same thing.

He let his son get drafted by the Browns; dude ****** up.

General Zod
02-06-2012, 01:51 PM
Hey, remember when Tiki Barber said that Eli couldnt lead a team...er something like that lol

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
02-06-2012, 01:51 PM
Tebow wins too.

eliTE(bow)

Rosebud
02-06-2012, 02:22 PM
Imagine today if Eli didn't cry and have his daddy get the bad man to trade him to the team he wanted to play for.

"Daddy, it's not fair, I WANNA PLAY FOR THE GIANTS!"

"OK, Eli, let me see what I can do. Just let me do all of the talking for you."

That behavior right there is one reason that I have with Eli. What a baby. Just like horse-face.

*shrug* a guy using his leverage to get what he wants isn't being a baby, but whatevs.

Rosebud
02-06-2012, 02:25 PM
i think hes now may a good case for himself, but its super funny how 7-8 weeks ago Eli was right where hes always been around the top 10 in QBs, Coughlin was about to get fired, and the giants were about to miss the playoffs after falling right on their face for half the year. He has some heroics in him thats for sure...but i think its laughable how a few weeks goes by and now all of the sudden eli is on aaron rodgers level and coughlin is a HOF coach.

Eli was a top 6 QB before this playoff run and he's a top 6 QB after it.

BigBanger
02-06-2012, 02:40 PM
no it doesnt! people make the same argument in EVERY SPORT about EVERY PLAYER's HALL OF FAME CREDENTIALS!!! RINGS = IN according to some people. you are out of your mind.

your argument = playoffs = hof, regardless of a very pedestrian regular season career.

Justin Tuck is a hall of famer if Eli Manning is a hall of famer. 2 rings, a much better player at his position.

edit: eli plays the most important position in sports, and has done so at a very tier 2 level over his entire career. not HOF worthy. If Eli Manning doesn't win a 2nd superbowl, he isn't within a lightyear of this discussion. he wins it, and loonies start mentioning it because they had 1 too many.

You do have a point. If Eli never won two super bowls then most probably would not consider him elite. But he has won 2 and he beat one of the all time great qbs... twice when that qb had two record setting seasons. He's going to the hall of fame and when his career is over he will be a first ballot player.

Who was the last non elite qb to win the super bowl? Brad Johnson? That was a long time ago. Like when a defense mattered. Now it's all about the qb. Only elite qbs win in this new era.

Vox Populi
02-06-2012, 02:43 PM
Eli was a top 6 QB before this playoff run and he's a top 6 QB after it.

Top 6 is kind of ambiguous. He is at the absolute highest the 5th best QB, and I'd put him at 6th as long as Peyton is included. Behind Brady, Brees, Rodgers and Roethlisberger. He won't have much competition from anyone behind him in terms of career accomplishments for a while though unless someone like Rivers pulls out an MVP and a Super Bowl.

Rosebud
02-06-2012, 02:51 PM
Top 6 is kind of ambiguous. He is at the absolute highest the 5th best QB, and I'd put him at 6th as long as Peyton is included. Behind Brady, Brees, Rodgers and Roethlisberger. He won't have much competition from anyone behind him in terms of career accomplishments for a while though unless someone like Rivers pulls out an MVP and a Super Bowl.

I'd put him ahead of Roethlisberger but that's because I've always preferred Eli's intelligence to Big Ben's neanderthal untackleability. Either way my point was that Eli was playing like an elite QB all season long and it's not, like the poster who I was responding to suggested, a case where he turned it on late in the season. No Eli was consistently great this year in all but the redskin and second eagles games, it's the defense that was MIA until the last couple weeks of the regular season, the OL that was inconsistent all season long, non-existent running game and breaking out receiving corps growing together.

JoeJoeBrown
02-06-2012, 03:22 PM
I heard the other day that Kellen Winslow Sr. told Archie after the trade happened, that he would have done the same thing.

KW Senior is a raging douchebag.

JoeJoeBrown
02-06-2012, 03:23 PM
*shrug* a guy using his leverage to get what he wants isn't being a baby, but whatevs.

He whined about it and had daddy do his talking for him.

It's one thing to use leverage, it's another to looking like a complete baby in doing so. *shrug*

Jughead10
02-07-2012, 08:12 AM
He whined about it and had daddy do his talking for him.

It's one thing to use leverage, it's another to looking like a complete baby in doing so. *shrug*

I also think it was more the other way around. Archie knew what it was like to play for **** organization all those years and he wanted better. I think it was more his advising of Eli what to do.