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View Full Version : Is Wes Welker the Most Overrated Player in the NFL?


Razor
02-21-2012, 08:26 AM
So, I read an article listing the ten most overrated players in the NFL. At the top of that list is Wes Welker (http://walterfootball.com/mostoverratednflplayers.php). I this true? I think that Welker is a terrific slot receiver, but by no means a #1 wideout. Also, I don't think that Davone Bess or another NFL slot receiver could do the same thing as Welker has over the last five seasons. I could pretty easily mention quite a lot of players in the NFL that I feel is more overrated than Welker. But I wanted to see what NFLDC had to say about this. So.... Discuss!

Job Reborn
02-21-2012, 08:29 AM
Article loses all of its credibility for refusing to name Michael Vick and going by dog-killer.

jrdrylie
02-21-2012, 08:45 AM
Article loses all of its credibility for refusing to name Michael Vick and going by dog-killer.

Well, he is completely correct in saying that Michael Vick is overrated though. The fact that he has signed TWO $100 million contracts despite only playing 16 games once, never having back-to-back winning seasons, and being an asshole is outrageous. After last season, some people were putting Vick in the top-five of QBs and almost everybody listed him as a top-ten QB. Personally, I would put him more in the 13-15 range.

He is also pretty right on about DeSean Jackson (injury prone, one-trick pony). I think he should have listed Troy Polamalu, who misses a lot of tackle and is so poor in coverage that he often looks like he is covering dirt (and the dirt often beats him). I disagree about Brandon Marshall. He has five straight 1000 yard seasons, despite playing with Chad Henne and Matt Moore at QB.

About Welker, I do think he is overrated. I think he is in the perfect situation in New England. But if he was ever asked to be a number one receiver on a team, he would be average at best. Welker is great at what he does. But if I'm picking receivers to start a team, there would be a bunch of guys I would choose before Welker.

Splat
02-21-2012, 08:49 AM
I'm so sick of the system argument when it comes to Wes Welker. What's so wrong about finding a guy that fits your system and him mastering it?

billybeejr
02-21-2012, 08:50 AM
Randy Moss? Did he even play this year?

AHungryWalrus
02-21-2012, 09:12 AM
This article is horrible, and unprofessional. It seems like it is simply a list of people he hates, and I fail to see how anyone could take anything he says seriously.

Hell, his basis for putting Vick on there is that "He's not much of a runner anymore." Seriously? VICK RUNS TOO MUCH! VICK DOESN'T RUN ENOUGHZZZ!

Never mind the fact he averaged a full YPC more than last year.

He calls out Brandon Marshall's inability to WIN FOOTBALL GAMES. As a wide receiver.

Who actually thinks that Turner is an elite back anymore? Who actually thinks Blount ever was? Then, his reference for backing up his claim that Welker is overrated, is a quote from a forum mod of his. Excuse me for not actually giving a **** what the moderator of your forum thinks.

AntoinCD
02-21-2012, 09:52 AM
I hate the whole "Welker's only a slot WR" argument. At the end of the day he played the most snaps at WR for the Patriots. Slot WR is a vital part of NFL offenses now. Many so called #1 WRs couldn't do what Wes Welker does because it is a completely different skill set. Wes Welker isn't going to line up outside the numbers and run fade routes because that doesn't suit him. In the same way that Calvin Johnson isn't going to line up in the slot and run whips and drags.

Playing in the slot and being successful requires a completely different skill set than lining up outside. Slot WRs don't necessarily have to beat CB coverage as much but they need to utilise the space they are afforded in the middle of the field. It requires much more cognitive thinking pre and post snap.

A WR will normally only have to worry about the way the CB and maybe the safety to his side are playing. Does the CB squat in short zone, is the safety rolling his way, is it man coverage, is it cover 3 etc. The slot WR will have to worry about nickel CBs, LB zones, safeties coming down, defensive linemen in zone blitz schemes etc.

Particularly for the Patriots, Welker needs to run more option routes and be on the same page as Tom Brady.

Is Welker physically on the same level as Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss? No but the position he plays requires him to be less of a physical freak and more of a thinker. Playing slot WR is completely different than being split out wide.

Demarcus Ware is a great OLB but I'm pretty sure he would suck at CB

mqtirishfan
02-21-2012, 10:02 AM
I'm so sick of the system argument when it comes to Wes Welker. What's so wrong about finding a guy that fits your system and him mastering it?

Nothing is wrong with that, and I wouldn't say Welker is any less valuable to the Patriots than most top receivers are to their teams, but I certainly would pick many of them over Welker if I were starting a team from scratch. In that regard, I'd tend to agree that Welker is overrated. Put Calvin Johnson in any other scheme and he'll be excellent. Put Welker in any other scheme and he might just be good.

bigbluedefense
02-21-2012, 10:03 AM
You can make an argument that the slot WR is the most important piece to a passing offense nowadays.

In the 90s the TE emerged as a threat to beat Cover 2, which was dominating the NFL at the time.

Now that defenses have caught up (in theory) to those TEs, the slot WR who runs that choice route is the new mismatch of sorts. Not really a "new" mismatch, but a rediscovered mismatch.

If he's running a choice, he should beat any coverage you throw at him underneath as long as he diagnosises it accurately.

Bengalsrocket
02-21-2012, 10:11 AM
I hate when someone "smart and crafty" uses that to their advantage. I would prefer an average player in all systems than the guy who decided to be great in my system.

I think it's down right stupid for anyone to show appreciation for a player making the most of the opportunity he was given. In fact, if I was Wes Welker, I would demand a trade to prove myself outside of that New England system and to get away from a future hall of fame candidate in Tom Brady.

It really makes you wonder what Bill Belichick was even thinking when he signed this guy. Once again, he aimlessly threw a dart at a board and got lucky. He probably had no idea what Welker could do and how he was going to use him in his system. Bill is just fortunate it all worked out, because it was a pretty stupid move to trade a 2nd and 7th round pick for such an overrated ball-dropping machine like Wes.

FlyingElvis
02-21-2012, 10:30 AM
Article loses all of its credibility for refusing to name Michael Vick and going by dog-killer.

Yeah, I can't really argue that. Whether it's "Dog Killer," "Rapelisberger" or the ever-so-clever "Belicheat," I immediately dismiss the author as a juvenile jackass and disregard anything that follows. In the first few months it's at least relevant, but a few years later it's the work of a petty and small mind.




Overrated / Underated discussions are pointless because they're too ambiguous.

Razor
02-21-2012, 10:35 AM
Overrated / Underated discussions are pointless because they're too ambiguous.

Too bad you feel that way. I was thinking that I'd put together an All Underrated and an All Overrated team and start some threads on those just to get the mayhem started. I hate when the season stops and activity falls in the forums. I probably should save that for after the draft though...

FlyingElvis
02-21-2012, 10:39 AM
Too bad you feel that way. I was thinking that I'd put together an All Underrated and an All Overrated team and start some threads on those just to get the mayhem started. I hate when the season stops and activity falls in the forums. I probably should save that for after the draft though...

Please, feel free. I'm sure when it slows down in here I'll need something to crap on.


;)

NY+Giants=NYG
02-21-2012, 10:46 AM
I don't think so! He is a damn good wr who is very productive. I think he is rated fine. I don't see an issue with Welker.

Abaddon
02-21-2012, 10:59 AM
Welker isn't in anyone's top 5 WRs.

Welker isn't spoken of in terms of being a do-it-all threat.

Welker is a guy who has a niche and excels at it.

No one is overrating him that I've seen. He's just damn good at his job.

NY+Giants=NYG
02-21-2012, 11:11 AM
Welker isn't in anyone's top 5 WRs.

Welker isn't spoken of in terms of being a do-it-all threat.

Welker is a guy who has a niche and excels at it.

No one is overrating him that I've seen. He's just damn good at his job.

That's the thing. Top 5 of what? Most talented or Most productive? I think both are different things. Talent doesn't always translate into production. Welker was the most productive WR this past season. He may not be # 1 in talent, but when it came to productivity he was # 1.

So I find that very interesting between talent vs productivity. What a fan rather have? Elite talent or elite productivity?

zachsaints52
02-21-2012, 11:20 AM
This article is horrible, and unprofessional. It seems like it is simply a list of people he hates, and I fail to see how anyone could take anything he says seriously.

Hell, his basis for putting Vick on there is that "He's not much of a runner anymore." Seriously? VICK RUNS TOO MUCH! VICK DOESN'T RUN ENOUGHZZZ!

Never mind the fact he averaged a full YPC more than last year.

He calls out Brandon Marshall's inability to WIN FOOTBALL GAMES. As a wide receiver.

Who actually thinks that Turner is an elite back anymore? Who actually thinks Blount ever was? Then, his reference for backing up his claim that Welker is overrated, is a quote from a forum mod of his. Excuse me for not actually giving a **** what the moderator of your forum thinks.

I agree with this assesment.

I hate when someone "smart and crafty" uses that to their advantage. I would prefer an average player in all systems than the guy who decided to be great in my system.

I think it's down right stupid for anyone to show appreciation for a player making the most of the opportunity he was given. In fact, if I was Wes Welker, I would demand a trade to prove myself outside of that New England system and to get away from a future hall of fame candidate in Tom Brady.

It really makes you wonder what Bill Belichick was even thinking when he signed this guy. Once again, he aimlessly threw a dart at a board and got lucky. He probably had no idea what Welker could do and how he was going to use him in his system. Bill is just fortunate it all worked out, because it was a pretty stupid move to trade a 2nd and 7th round pick for such an overrated ball-dropping machine like Wes.

Why the crap does it matter how a player does in other teams systems? You want the best players that can play in your system.

Welker isn't in anyone's top 5 WRs.

Welker isn't spoken of in terms of being a do-it-all threat.

Welker is a guy who has a niche and excels at it.

No one is overrating him that I've seen. He's just damn good at his job.

Agreed.

yodabear
02-21-2012, 11:42 AM
I stopped reading and started to skim and laugh after the Marshall being #5, which is complete nonsense. The Dolphins don't have an offense without him and he is a hell of a player. Nimwitted and a premadona sure, but a great wide receiver. Also, he just tore Vick a new one from what I skimmed. Welcome to the club u are now the last and prolly will be the last to bring up the whole dog fighting and all. I will not defend his actions, but dude is a good football player as well. Most versatile QB in the game besides Aaron Rodgers (meaning he can throw and scamble/run around). He also mentioned Jermichael Finley, in the honorable mention. SMH. And no Wes Welker is NOT overrated, he is just damn good.

Job Reborn
02-21-2012, 12:23 PM
Why the crap does it matter how a player does in other teams systems? You want the best players that can play in your system.


Your sarcasm detector seems quite clearly broken.

bucfan12
02-21-2012, 12:54 PM
Welker is no where near overrated. No one pegs him as a #1 WR. He plays in the slot in New England 90% of the time it seems.

I think this article lacks credibility because somehow, Tim Tebow doesn't make the list.

Ghost of Juice
02-21-2012, 03:19 PM
The stats Welker puts up is what makes him seem overrated. He only really runs short routes and he has Tom Brady hitting him in stride all the time so this leads to inflated catch and yard totals.

But he is great at his job and it's not like anyone ever says hes as good as Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald or anything so I don't see him as a player being overrated.

He's very valuable to the Pats and any team would love to have him, he's just not an all time great receiver that his stats might indicate.

Raiderz4Life
02-21-2012, 04:38 PM
The guy is a jackass. Even if its just an honorable mention how the hell is Mike Bush considered overrated? He's the no. 2 back and he played well for the most part. Let's not even get into the rest of the list.

A Perfect Score
02-21-2012, 04:41 PM
"I think Giant fans understand now. Rolle gets terribly lost in coverage, and the numbers back it up. When targeting Rolle in 2011, opposing quarterbacks completed a whopping 81.6 percent of their passes and maintained a sterling quarterback rating of 126.1. On top of that, Rolle committed four penalties, which tied for sixth in the NFL (safeties only)."

Which Giants fan tried to tell me that Rolle is superior to Ed Reed in coverage at this point in their respective careers?

NY+Giants=NYG
02-21-2012, 05:04 PM
That's the Perry fewell effect coupled with 5 Cbs on IR. That meant Rolle played more Cb this year because of that. I am sure all the stats for this defense especially the back end stunk. Did anyone actually watch the games? Forget the stats, watch the actually games! It was a mess with everyone not knowing what they were doing. That's why the team went t Fewell before the Jets game, and after the 2nd Skins game. That's when Fewell changed things around.

Before that it was a s.... show of a defense!

nobodyinparticular
02-21-2012, 05:45 PM
I would say that Wes Welker would not be as good in many different environments. I am a firm believer that he is in the perfect place for him to succeed--the other two team he matches up well with would be Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees.

What I mean to say is that I think he gets much of his value from his QB. Many WRs get their value from their QB so it's not necessarily a knock on him. However the truly game breaking WRs will be very successful no matter who is throwing the rock.

Over/underrated really is an ambiguous term. On his ability to change the game in any system or with any QB, I would not rate him highly. However, if I had a guy like Brady, Rodgers or Brees, Welker would be one of my top WRs.

descendency
02-21-2012, 07:12 PM
Lots of people seem to think Welker's production is better than his talent.

Call it what you want, but he generally is more productive than almost any WR which I think puts him in the top 10. He's by far more productive than anything else in NE.

fenikz
02-21-2012, 07:13 PM
*sits quietly and says nothing*

Jvig43
02-21-2012, 08:01 PM
Lots of people seem to think Welker's production is better than his talent.

Call it what you want, but he generally is more productive than almost any WR which I think puts him in the top 10. He's by far more productive than anything else in NE.

Unless he's required to make a catch that matters.

Timbathia
02-21-2012, 10:03 PM
I would say that Wes Welker would not be as good in many different environments. I am a firm believer that he is in the perfect place for him to succeed--the other two team he matches up well with would be Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees.

What I mean to say is that I think he gets much of his value from his QB. Many WRs get their value from their QB so it's not necessarily a knock on him. However the truly game breaking WRs will be very successful no matter who is throwing the rock.

Over/underrated really is an ambiguous term. On his ability to change the game in any system or with any QB, I would not rate him highly. However, if I had a guy like Brady, Rodgers or Brees, Welker would be one of my top WRs.

Its actually the other way around. Brady's completion percentage and average yards per game are significantly higher after Welker started playing in NE. Welker's numbers didnt dip the year Brady was hurt.

Welker has made both Brady and Cassel look better than they are.

nobodyinparticular
02-21-2012, 10:10 PM
Its actually the other way around. Brady's completion percentage and average yards per game are significantly higher after Welker started playing in NE. Welker's numbers didnt dip the year Brady was hurt.

Welker has made both Brady and Cassel look better than they are.

You are assuming that everything else was static. The offense also significantly changed over that time to be much more of a spread offense. This is the offense in which Welker would be best.

StickSkills
02-21-2012, 10:35 PM
I'm so sick of the system argument when it comes to Wes Welker. What's so wrong about finding a guy that fits your system and him mastering it?

Exactly! A player is more than a physical specimen. If he knows his system and has mastered it, then he's a good, smart player. They simply do their job extremely well.

Complex
02-21-2012, 10:38 PM
Its actually the other way around. Brady's completion percentage and average yards per game are significantly higher after Welker started playing in NE. Welker's numbers didnt dip the year Brady was hurt.

Welker has made both Brady and Cassel look better than they are.

What were Brady Stats when Julian Eldman(sp?) was filling in for a injured Welker.

Don Vito
02-21-2012, 10:49 PM
Welker's role in our offense is absolutely enormous, and nobody in the league could do what he does for us better. That is why we gave up a second rounder for a guy who was relatively unknown aside from a few gimmick plays and was undrafted only a few years before.

Look at Welkers production in his years here, but more importantly look at our offenses production in his years here. We have had one of, if not the best offenses in the league since Welker has been here. Take away Brady for a year, he still pulled down 111 catches with a young unknown QB. Think Cassel would like Welker in KC? Everyone said Welker would do nothing with Moss gone, and it turned out to be just the opposite.

Welker definitely has his limitations, but what he does is so huge to our team's success. We need to add another receiver without question, but Welker is not the most overrated player in the NFL. He had a huge drop in the Super Bowl, but that would have been a spectacular catch. Wes is an amazing player and most people can't comprehend that someone with the physical skill set of Wes Welker is consistently one of the most productive players in the NFL.

descendency
02-21-2012, 10:56 PM
tebow-esque.

Game 2, 2009: 23/47, 0 TD - 1 INT, 216 Yards (53.1 QBR) [@Jets]
Game 3, 2009: 25/46, 1 TD - 0 INT, 277 Yards (87.1 QBR) [Falcons]
Game 17, 2009: 23/42, 2 TD - 3 INT, 154 Yards (49.1 QBR) [Ravens playoffs]
Game 16, 2010: 10/16, 2 TD - 0 INT, 199 yards (145.6 QBR) [Dolphins]

Timbathia
02-21-2012, 11:03 PM
You are assuming that everything else was static. The offense also significantly changed over that time to be much more of a spread offense. This is the offense in which Welker would be best.

Thats fine if you want to credit the system, but in your earlier post it certainly appears you only think Welker would be successful with one of the three top QBs in the league. Welker showed he was just as good with Cassel in there.

Matthew Jones
02-21-2012, 11:08 PM
Welker's not overrated, it's just that some offensive coordinators would not be as creative as New England's have been in finding ways to get him the ball. Many NFL coaches are creatures of habit who would try and fit a round peg into a square hole with limited results, but in terms of talent Welker has a well-deserved reputation as one of the most uncoverable receivers in the league.

Brothgar
02-21-2012, 11:25 PM
Most over rated in the NFL

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Tim_Tebow_(Broncos).JPG/220px-Tim_Tebow_(Broncos).JPG

descendency
02-21-2012, 11:41 PM
Most over rated in the NFL

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Tim_Tebow_(Broncos).JPG/220px-Tim_Tebow_(Broncos).JPG

Except no one rates him highly (except Skip Bayless)

ninerfan
02-22-2012, 05:23 AM
This thread is the most overrated thread in the forum. The fact we're on page 2 of a topic so far from reality is a joke. Welker excels at what he does, he may not be sexy but **** me he's efficient

The Alex
02-22-2012, 06:24 AM
I actually like WalterFootball for some draft stuff here and there but god damn, the dude is utterly clueless when it comes to some things.

jrdrylie
02-22-2012, 08:03 AM
I actually like WalterFootball for some draft stuff here and there but god damn, the dude is utterly clueless when it comes to some things.

He is a wannabe comedian who likes to use big words to show how smart he is. He rags on Michael Vick years after the fact (which I'm cool with) but defended Joe Paterno like crazy because he is a Penn State alumni. I liked his site because he was a good handicapper. But this year he was absolutely horrible at football and currently down about $1800 on basketball, so his site has really lost some value to me.

zachsaints52
02-22-2012, 08:45 AM
Most over rated in the NFL

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Tim_Tebow_(Broncos).JPG/220px-Tim_Tebow_(Broncos).JPG

He isn't over-rated, but over-talked about.

Brothgar
02-22-2012, 10:14 AM
Except no one rates him highly (except Skip Bayless)

He isn't over-rated, but over-talked about.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Denver-Broncos-Tim-Tebow-is-most-valuable-player-in-NFL-right-now-120411

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/12/tim-tebow-nfl-mvp-denver-broncos.html

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/16188393/hear-me-out-tebow-a-legit-mvp-looker-not-winner-but-candidate

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/968044-tim-tebow-3-reasons-the-nfl-mvp-talk-is-justified

No???

Prowler
02-22-2012, 10:31 AM
As a 5'10" guy, I would have to say that Wes Welker is definitely overrated. I'm not going to read the article because I'm lazy, but I would agree that Bess could decently replace Welker. Edelman did a decent job filling in. Playing the slot is extremely easy to me. Slant or drag across the middle and keep the threat of going deep to push the defenders into giving a cushion. Its gimme yards. He's an 11 yards/catch guy. He's great at what he does, but its the system that turns him into the statistically 2nd best WR behind Calvin last year. I love him, he even has dreamy eyes, but he's a slot receiver benefiting from inflated numbers.

I'd also challenge any WR in the NFL/College/HS to name a job that they'd rather have on an NFL team than the "Welker Role" in NE. Slants/Drags all day? Second highest receptions? Sign me up.

AntoinCD
02-22-2012, 10:42 AM
As a 5'10" guy, I would have to say that Wes Welker is definitely overrated. I'm not going to read the article because I'm lazy, but I would agree that Bess could decently replace Welker. Edelman did a decent job filling in. Playing the slot is extremely easy to me. Slant or drag across the middle and keep the threat of going deep to push the defenders into giving a cushion. Its gimme yards. He's an 11 yards/catch guy. He's great at what he does, but its the system that turns him into the statistically 2nd best WR behind Calvin last year. I love him, he even has dreamy eyes, but he's a slot receiver benefiting from inflated numbers.

I'd also challenge any WR in the NFL/College/HS to name a job that they'd rather have on an NFL team than the "Welker Role" in NE. Slants/Drags all day? Second highest receptions? Sign me up.

Would you rather get pounded 8-12 times per game by a linebacker who is probably 50lbs heavier than you or a safety running feel speed downhill, or tackled by a CB who is probably smaller and lighter than you 5-6 times a game???

Prowler
02-22-2012, 10:45 AM
I'd rather get paid Franchise money for catching the easy ones rather than worrying about looking like a fool trying to judge deep balls.


*And I think he's an evolution of Brandon Stokley/Dallas Clark. Tom Brady/Belichick saw what Peyton was doing in Indiana and they got their own slot/seam stretcher.

He does his job well, but he's also one of the most easily replaced guys in the league.

AntoinCD
02-22-2012, 01:48 PM
I'd rather get paid Franchise money for catching the easy ones rather than worrying about looking like a fool trying to judge deep balls.


*And I think he's an evolution of Brandon Stokley/Dallas Clark. Tom Brady/Belichick saw what Peyton was doing in Indiana and they got their own slot/seam stretcher.

He does his job well, but he's also one of the most easily replaced guys in the league.

It's easier to find a guy who matches Welker's skillset than, say, trying to find a 6'3+ guy who runs a 4.4 and can be a great outside WR. However I'm not sure there is anyone who can replicate Welker's productivity. Julian Edelman filled in well but I don't see him catching 110 balls on average a season.

Welker does his job extraordinarily well. As far as slot WRs go he is the prototype. And the slot WR in the Patriots offense is a huge part of what makes them tick.

CDCB14
02-22-2012, 01:54 PM
I'm glad Michael Vick is #2, but disappointed he isn't #1. Top 10 most overrated player in the history of sports.

What has he ever done? He sucks. I hope someone just knocks him out for good. But then again I hope he stays healthy so the eagles don't go anywhere, BECAUSE HE SUCKS.

broncosfan
02-22-2012, 02:13 PM
I'm glad Michael Vick is #2, but disappointed he isn't #1. Top 10 most overrated player in the history of sports.

What has he ever done? He sucks. I hope someone just knocks him out for good. But then again I hope he stays healthy so the eagles don't go anywhere, BECAUSE HE SUCKS.

But he runs faster than a cornerback and has a cannon for an arm, he must be great, right?

descendency
02-22-2012, 02:35 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Denver-Broncos-Tim-Tebow-is-most-valuable-player-in-NFL-right-now-120411

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/12/tim-tebow-nfl-mvp-denver-broncos.html

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/16188393/hear-me-out-tebow-a-legit-mvp-looker-not-winner-but-candidate

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/968044-tim-tebow-3-reasons-the-nfl-mvp-talk-is-justified

No???

Is that before or after they were debacled by the Patriots, again.

descendency
02-22-2012, 02:37 PM
What has he ever done?

Carried a ****** Falcon team to the NFC Championship (or was it divisional?) round.

There was a time when Mike Vick was quite possibly the #1 play maker in the NFL.

Granted, I agree with him that Vick's time has passed.

Complex
02-22-2012, 04:04 PM
It's easier to find a guy who matches Welker's skillset than, say, trying to find a 6'3+ guy who runs a 4.4 and can be a great outside WR. However I'm not sure there is anyone who can replicate Welker's productivity. Julian Edelman filled in well but I don't see him catching 110 balls on average a season.

Welker does his job extraordinarily well. As far as slot WRs go he is the prototype. And the slot WR in the Patriots offense is a huge part of what makes them tick.

He didn't start 16 games maybe that is why.

Complex
02-22-2012, 04:04 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Denver-Broncos-Tim-Tebow-is-most-valuable-player-in-NFL-right-now-120411

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/12/tim-tebow-nfl-mvp-denver-broncos.html

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/16188393/hear-me-out-tebow-a-legit-mvp-looker-not-winner-but-candidate

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/968044-tim-tebow-3-reasons-the-nfl-mvp-talk-is-justified

No???

The bleacher report really?

Thecollegedropout
02-22-2012, 11:54 PM
John Abraham, DE, Falcons - Racks up sacks versus awful opponents; disappears often in big games.
Add that he refused to play for the Jets in the 04 playoff run due to a cold and how injury prone he is/was and I am shocked Abraham did not get on this list. Dude was the king of eating the awful Bills and Dolphins lineup and getting after Drew Bledsoe and the Miami QBs. Vs NE, he was a big time ghost.

Brothgar
02-23-2012, 12:22 AM
The bleacher report really?

I could have gone ESPN but that would have been too easy.

UNLEASH!

Razor
02-23-2012, 03:32 AM
He didn't start 16 games maybe that is why.

Um, no. He can't consistently seperate and has inconsistent hands and route running technique. That's why. Welker is unique...

broncosfan
02-23-2012, 12:02 PM
I don't agree with Welker being the No. 1 most overrated player in the league, but I think he IS overrated in some way. Let me explain.

Welker isn't the number 1 target/threat on his own team, and never has been. There have always been guys like Randy Moss, Gronkowski, Hernandez around him, and other teams concentrate on stoping those guys giving Welker the opportunity to produce at such a high level.

Welker is a great slot receiver, the best in the league and has many receptions and TD's to prove it. He constantly gets open and takes advantage of the linebackers and nicklebacks who try to cover him with his tremendous agility and explotion in short areas.

Having said that, he isn't one of the best Wide Receivers in the NFL, that title is reserved for players like Calvin and Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, Mike Wallace, etc. The other team knows the ball is comming to them so they put their best cornerback on their side, if that doesn't work, they put a safety over the top and they still find a way to catch the ball and put points on the board.

Wes Welker is a excellent player and a great story, but if he is being compared to those guys, he is being overrated.

AntoinCD
02-23-2012, 12:38 PM
I don't agree with Welker being the No. 1 most overrated player in the league, but I think he IS overrated in some way. Let me explain.

Welker isn't the number 1 target/threat on his own team, and never has been. There have always been guys like Randy Moss, Gronkowski, Hernandez around him, and other teams concentrate on stoping those guys giving Welker the opportunity to produce at such a high level.

Welker is a great slot receiver, the best in the league and has many receptions and TD's to prove it. He constantly gets open and takes advantage of the linebackers and nicklebacks who try to cover him with his tremendous agility and explotion in short areas.

Having said that, he isn't one of the best Wide Receivers in the NFL, that title is reserved for players like Calvin and Andre Johnson, Fitzgerald, Mike Wallace, etc. The other team knows the ball is comming to them so they put their best cornerback on their side, if that doesn't work, they put a safety over the top and they still find a way to catch the ball and put points on the board.

Wes Welker is a excellent player and a great story, but if he is being compared to those guys, he is being overrated.

Tell that to the Jets.

The Jets rushed 3, played single coverage outside with Cromartie and Kyle Wilson, put Revis (for the most part on Welker) and basically had the other 5 players flood the middle of the field on most passing situations againts the Pats in the regular season.

Say what you want about Rex Ryan as a head coach but he is a damn good defensive coach. And he clearly thinks the Pats offense goes through Welker.

And once again, why is Welker being compared to Calvin Johnson? It really is like comparing Joe Thomas to Carl Nicks.

Calvin Johnson and Wes Welker both run routes and catch the ball, therefore they must be the same type of player.

Joe Thomas and Carl Nicks both block players, therefore they must be the same.

NY+Giants=NYG
02-23-2012, 12:54 PM
That's the thing, I'd rather have a productive WR than the "best" or a player with "elite" talent. Even among our fan base we can talk about who is better, Nicks or Cruz. I like Nicks better in terms of talent, but honestly, it doesn't mean anything if Cruz can be more productive than him. I will always go with production. I don't care if the guy is super human talent. Great, then you better have super human production. I like watching Fitz, and Megatron and guys like that, but I like watching productive WRs. If Fitz or Megatron are those guys too, then sweet. If some one like Welker can out produce them, then very big props to Welker.

AntoinCD
02-23-2012, 01:00 PM
That's the thing, I'd rather have a productive WR than the "best" or a player with "elite" talent. Even among our fan base we can talk about who is better, Nicks or Cruz. I like Nicks better in terms of talent, but honestly, it doesn't mean anything if Cruz can be more productive than him. I will always go with production. I don't care if the guy is super human talent. Great, then you better have super human production. I like watching Fitz, and Megatron and guys like that, but I like watching productive WRs. If Fitz or Megatron are those guys too, then sweet. If some one like Welker can out produce them, then very big props to Welker.

That's the thing for me too. It doesn't matter how fast or big a guy is. At the end of the day the most important thing is catching balls and scoring TDs.

NY+Giants=NYG
02-23-2012, 01:21 PM
That's the thing for me too. It doesn't matter how fast or big a guy is. At the end of the day the most important thing is catching balls and scoring TDs.

Production is important. What good is it having the best talent, HOF talent, super man of player who is not as productive as his talent would dictate? This guy could be a pro bowler, paid a boat load of money, who all fans respect, but the production may never match his talent.

Then you have a Welker or Cruz, and put them in a system, and now their production is high level. You see fans like WTF. These guys aren't as good as a house hold name like CJ, Fitz, or who ever else. However, these guys in their niche can be equally or more productive. That's why I love football. You can have guys who are a perfect fit to a system or scheme and their production is through the roof.

nobodyinparticular
02-23-2012, 01:27 PM
Tell that to the Jets.

The Jets rushed 3, played single coverage outside with Cromartie and Kyle Wilson, put Revis (for the most part on Welker) and basically had the other 5 players flood the middle of the field on most passing situations againts the Pats in the regular season.

Say what you want about Rex Ryan as a head coach but he is a damn good defensive coach. And he clearly thinks the Pats offense goes through Welker.

And once again, why is Welker being compared to Calvin Johnson? It really is like comparing Joe Thomas to Carl Nicks.

Calvin Johnson and Wes Welker both run routes and catch the ball, therefore they must be the same type of player.

Joe Thomas and Carl Nicks both block players, therefore they must be the same.

Okay, so where do you put Welker in the hierarchy of WRs?

AntoinCD
02-23-2012, 01:43 PM
Okay, so where do you put Welker in the hierarchy of WRs?

Its not as cut and dry as that.

If I'm looking a slot WR then the only reason I don't take Welker 100 times out of 100 is because of age.

If I'm looking an outside guy then I'm not even thinking of him.

Of any player who can be classified as a WR he's almost certainly in my top ten or fifteen based on what he brings to my team from a production standpoint.

broncosfan
02-23-2012, 02:20 PM
Tell that to the Jets.

The Jets rushed 3, played single coverage outside with Cromartie and Kyle Wilson, put Revis (for the most part on Welker) and basically had the other 5 players flood the middle of the field on most passing situations againts the Pats in the regular season.

Say what you want about Rex Ryan as a head coach but he is a damn good defensive coach. And he clearly thinks the Pats offense goes through Welker.


Tell that to te Broncos.

Who put Chris Harris (a freaking rookie) all day against Wes Welker, and let Champ cover a no-name wideout with zero impact on the game.

The Jets strategy to put Revis on Welker just tells you they have common sense, why waste your best defensive player on a guy who has none to little impact in the game like the Broncos stupidly did... twice.

Letting 5 guys flood the middle sounds more like an answer to the TE problem, who actually are the No. 1 threat when you are playing the Pats and Ryan knows this. But trust me, if they could put Revis on Gronkowski and shut him down effectively they would, but it's just not a great match up. So they put him against the 2nd option and try to figure out the TE problem with something else.

Rex Ryan is an excellent defensive mind, I like him.


And once again, why is Welker being compared to Calvin Johnson? It really is like comparing Joe Thomas to Carl Nicks.

Calvin Johnson and Wes Welker both run routes and catch the ball, therefore they must be the same type of player.

Joe Thomas and Carl Nicks both block players, therefore they must be the same.

They should not be compared as players on the football field, but you can compare the impact they have on their team. Joe Thomas and Carl Nicks are great players, both the best at their positions, but if I were to start an o-line from zilch I would choose Thomas over Nicks because he plays a more valuable position and has more impact on the offense.

AntoinCD
02-23-2012, 02:32 PM
They should not be compared as players on the football field, but you can compare the impact they have on their team. Joe Thomas and Carl Nicks are great players, both the best at their positions, but if I were to start an o-line from zilch I would choose Thomas over Nicks because he plays a more valuable position and has more impact on the offense.

Oh don't get me wrong, if you offered me Calvin Johnson or Wes Welker I'd bite your hand off getting Calvin Johnson. In the same way I would take Joe Thomas over Carl Nicks.

I just think it is silly of people to say Welker is overrated because he can't do what Calvin Johnson does, or Larry Fitzgerald etc. Welker is a slot WR and the best one in the NFL. For teams that use slot WRs a lot (and the number of them are growing) having a dependable guy like Welker who can run the routes and be on the same page as the QB is as important as the majority of teams and their #1 WR outside.

broncosfan
02-23-2012, 09:20 PM
That's the thing, I'd rather have a productive WR than the "best" or a player with "elite" talent. Even among our fan base we can talk about who is better, Nicks or Cruz. I like Nicks better in terms of talent, but honestly, it doesn't mean anything if Cruz can be more productive than him. I will always go with production. I don't care if the guy is super human talent. Great, then you better have super human production. I like watching Fitz, and Megatron and guys like that, but I like watching productive WRs. If Fitz or Megatron are those guys too, then sweet. If some one like Welker can out produce them, then very big props to Welker.

That's the ting, the best players with elite talent like Fitzgerald, the Johnsons, Wallace, Gronkowski, open things up for the "productive" guys to put up the stats while being productive themselves. Even with guys like Nicks who are not among the elite in the NFL, they still opens things up for the other guys on the team like Cruz and Manningham.

To put an example: Maybe guys like Greg Little and Mohammed Massaquoi could be "productive WR" if they had a good player (true number 1 wideout) like Nicks on the other side, not even an elite one. Having a good quarterback like Welker and Cruz have doesn't hurt either.

NY+Giants=NYG
02-23-2012, 09:31 PM
That's the ting, the best players with elite talent like Fitzgerald, the Johnsons, Wallace, Gronkowski, open things up for the "productive" guys to put up the stats while being productive themselves. Even with guys like Nicks who are not among the elite in the NFL, they still opens things up for the other guys on the team like Cruz and Manningham.


I am sure that may be a small part in it. You can even say the Qbs are an issue too. Good or bad, or even OL. Maybe the system as well.

That's the thing, in our system that's not true. Nicks is a good or a step below elite, but our passing system has the frame work of the Run and Shoot where we have a lot of option and choice routes. Cruz did it all on his own by running those routes perfectly! Same with Steve Smith when he was here. It's not secret both played the slot, and both had great production.

In our system, or their niche they were very productive. I am not going to comment on other systems because I don't watch all their games. However, you brought up ours, so I will just talk about it. Cruz learned the choice and option routes, and it took time, and some yelling by Gilbride, but he does it on his own.

http://oi40.tinypic.com/34rd15x.jpg



Nicks has nothing to do with it. In fact teams, were doubling both guys and alternating, and still couldn't stop Cruz or Nicks for that matter. But with Cruz, he found his niche and had great if not elite production this year. Again, you find a guy and put him in the right system, and I'll take production any day. For us, it will be interesting to see if Cruz can do this non stop in his niche. He doesn't need anyone to do anything. He just needs to run and execute his choice and option routes and the production will come.

bigbluedefense
02-24-2012, 11:03 AM
Simply looking at production is not a fair evaluation at all. I would make a strong argument that a WR who demands double coverage sometimes triple in zone defense who catches 3 passes for 30 yards while sliding coverage all game is far more valuable than a WR who can catch 7 passes for 60 yards and a TD vs the 3rd CB.

You have to look at the whole picture as well. Great WRs dictate coverage. The elite ones produce while dictating coverage. Production is half the battle. Football isn't baseball, we can't just look at stats and say this guy is better than that guy bc his stats are better.

NY+Giants=NYG
02-24-2012, 01:24 PM
Simply looking at production is not a fair evaluation at all. I would make a strong argument that a WR who demands double coverage sometimes triple in zone defense who catches 3 passes for 30 yards while sliding coverage all game is far more valuable than a WR who can catch 7 passes for 60 yards and a TD vs the 3rd CB.

You have to look at the whole picture as well. Great WRs dictate coverage. The elite ones produce while dictating coverage. Production is half the battle. Football isn't baseball, we can't just look at stats and say this guy is better than that guy bc his stats are better.

Well then that's the extreme case, however, you would throw those concepts on the board and see what everyone is doing. You want to see X, Z, F and H, and what's going on.

If in that case that X is bracketed or they are rolling that way all game long fine. However, they are doing that for every X. You have to be a game changer or elite status for teams to do that.

Also, you have to stick to the original essence of the thread which was if Welker is over rated. I contend he is not, and that while he may not be elite or have elite talent, he is in a niche system that allows him to have elite production.

True stats aren't everything, but at this WR position I want production. I can have a Megatron but if teams can take him away or do something else, production has to come somewhere else. Plus it's not rule that even if they are scheming towards him, he can still be very productive. We saw this all season from him, catching balls with 3 guys around him. So it can be done.

However, each system has it's rules and perks. For example, for us it doesn't matter who is X. Your other WR rules if executed correctly, and I say IF, because ours is probably one of the most complex in the NFL, IF executed perfectly, it can rape most defenses. Smith and Cruz both proved this in our specific system.

But Like I told Broncofan, I don't really want to comment on other teams specific systems, because I don't get to watch all their games. For us, I think I can comment on it because I pay attention to that side of the ball and watch every game.