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View Full Version : Luke Kuechly: Why Not a Top 6 Pick?


bigbuc
02-27-2012, 03:57 PM
Ok with his workout today why isn't this guy a top 6 pick? You'll come at me and say because he has no rush skills? Because he's a 4/3 MLB or a 3/4 ILB. Because he just make tackles... right?

They say the same things about Willis, Ray Lewis and Brian Urlacher.

Kuechly Willis Urlacher


40 - 4.58 4.51 4.56
3 cone - 6.92 7.23 ?
20 yard - 4.12 4.46 4.19
Bench - 27 22 27
Vert - 38 39 34
Broad - 123 inch 119 122


Up against two of the best MLB in the league he's stands up or bests them. Plus everyone say this guy has the eyes for the game... I don't get it. Because if the drafts that Willis and Urlacher were in had a do over both those guys would be top 5 picks.

vidae
02-27-2012, 03:59 PM
Positional value. It really is that simple.

SuperPacker
02-27-2012, 04:01 PM
Where were Urlacher and Willis drafted? And its probably because teams value pass rushers and pass defenders over linebackers.

A Perfect Score
02-27-2012, 04:01 PM
Positional value. It really is that simple.

Bingo. Kuechly is another one of those guys, not unlike DeCastro, who gets done in by the position he plays. Both of these guys are absolutely elite talents at the position they play, but unfortunately that position is just of lesser value to NFL teams then QB, LT, DE, etc.

toonsterwu
02-27-2012, 04:02 PM
Vidae's fairly spot on with that. There's a reason that Urlacher was drafted more as an OLB (that's where the Bears were initially going to use him until ... um ... I want to say Barry Minter, but my memory could be off, got hurt), and Willis "fell" to 11. While the value of a smart, athletic inside backer/mike backer has grown in recent years, it's still viewed as a position where you can find guys later.

bigbuc
02-27-2012, 04:04 PM
I guess what I'm trying to say is when players like Willis, Lewis or Urlacher come out all the teams that pass on them say the same thing two years later. That he was just a tackler, but that every team that passed also wishes they could go back and draft them. Why not just draft them at 5 or 6 or 7 and have a great LB for 10 plus years.

vidae
02-27-2012, 04:06 PM
I don't know that Kuechly will have the kind of impact that those guys have had, but when you're picking top 6 you generally have a lot of needs and picking an ILB that high when you have bigger needs isn't a great idea. LT/QB/WR/DE are viewed as being more important for a reason.

And don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Kuechly, and we have a need opposite DJ at ILB, but even then I'd have a problem taking him 11th over NT/OT. And this is coming from someone who LOVES Kuech and what he can bring to the table.

FUNBUNCHER
02-27-2012, 04:07 PM
It's not impossible that some team falls in love with Kuechly and truly believes he's the next great Mike to enter the NFL at takes him top 10, but as others have said, it's the same reason RBs have fallen out of favor high in the first round.

Babylon
02-27-2012, 04:07 PM
Two reasons off the top of my head would be Aaron Curry and AJ Hawk. It's mostly a positional thing and you'd like to see a guy be able to get to the QB.

My guess is he went from being a top 20 pick to a top dozen pick after this weekend but he may slide to the Eagles/Chargers part of the draft.

A Perfect Score
02-27-2012, 04:07 PM
I guess what I'm trying to say is when players like Willis, Lewis or Urlacher come out all the teams that pass on them say the same thing two years later. That he was just a tackler, but that every team that passed also wishes they could go back and draft them. Why not just draft them at 5 or 6 or 7 and have a great LB for 10 plus years.

Well Ray Lewis wasn't drafted until Pick 26, so I don't think it's fair to lump him in with Urlacher or Willis, both of whom went Top 11. Willis ran a 4.37, which is absolutely astronomical all things considered. I think if he had of ran a 4.6, you would have seen him fall into the 15-20 range Kuechly is predicted for.

OSUGiants17
02-27-2012, 04:08 PM
Because he needs to fall to 32 and play for the giants!

PossibleCabbage
02-27-2012, 04:10 PM
The same reason David DeCastro isn't a top 6 pick: non-pass rushing LBs and interior linemen just aren't worth as much as other positions, since they don't improve your team as much as other positions.

vidae
02-27-2012, 04:11 PM
Because he needs to fall to 32 and play for the giants!

I hope you guys get him! I'd love to see him on the Giants working behind that DL.

Chargerfn909
02-27-2012, 04:19 PM
The same reason David DeCastro isn't a top 6 pick: non-pass rushing LBs and interior linemen just aren't worth as much as other positions, since they don't improve your team as much as other positions.

Hard to really say that. If you are looking at a potential GREAT at ILB/MLB/OG/C, I believe they should be tossed into the category of game changers. In fact, i'd venture to say both Kuechly and DeCastro would be safer than other that will be drafted top 5-10. Instincts are instincts and i'd say both those men are both two of the most instinctive pure football players in the draft.

bigbuc
02-27-2012, 04:21 PM
Well Ray Lewis wasn't drafted until Pick 26, so I don't think it's fair to lump him in with Urlacher or Willis, both of whom went Top 11. Willis ran a 4.37, which is absolutely astronomical all things considered. I think if he had of ran a 4.6, you would have seen him fall into the 15-20 range Kuechly is predicted for.

Dude did you just make up that number out of thin air? Willis ran in the 4.5's... I wouldn't take his pro day time.

A Perfect Score
02-27-2012, 04:23 PM
Dude did you just make up that number out of thin air? Willis ran in the 4.5's no 4.3 for him

"Linebacker Patrick Willis wowed scouts with a 4.37 40-yard dash during Mississippi's Pro Day. Willis, already a first round lock, could see his stock rise even further after this performance. He'll be given serious consideration by some teams in the top ten spots on draft day."

http://www.footballsfuture.com/news/2007/03/patrick-willis-runs-437-40-yard-dash.html

Literally the first page after I typed "Patrick Willis 40 time" into Google.

vidae
02-27-2012, 04:24 PM
Hard to really say that. If you are looking at a potential GREAT at ILB/MLB/OG/C, I believe they should be tossed into the category of game changers. In fact, i'd venture to say both Kuechly and DeCastro would be safer than other that will be drafted top 5-10. Instincts are instincts and i'd say both those men are both two of the most instinctive pure football players in the draft.

It seems to be less of an issue now because of the rookie wage scale, but most people just don't agree with that.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that people don't see it that way.

SuperPacker
02-27-2012, 04:27 PM
"Linebacker Patrick Willis wowed scouts with a 4.37 40-yard dash during Mississippi's Pro Day. Willis, already a first round lock, could see his stock rise even further after this performance. He'll be given serious consideration by some teams in the top ten spots on draft day."

http://www.footballsfuture.com/news/2007/03/patrick-willis-runs-437-40-yard-dash.html

Literally the first page after I typed "Patrick Willis 40 time" into Google.

You just got owned bigbuc ;)

keylime_5
02-27-2012, 04:29 PM
you don't draft middle linebackers that high, especially in today's NFL. The only linebackers who go top 10 are ones who can rush the passer now. No more AJ Hawk, Aaron Curry types are gonna go that high. Plus it's not like Kuechly doesn't have some questions, he isn't the perfect player. He's not a guy you can put in man coverage with some of these tight ends and running backs. You can put him in zone coverage and he'll excel, but he's not a Patrick Willis or Brian Urlacher type.

PossibleCabbage
02-27-2012, 04:42 PM
In the last dozen drafts, only three non-pass rushing linebackers have been taken in the top 6: Aaron Curry, A.J. Hawk, LaVar Arrington. None of them were particularly great picks.

Kuechly is not a once-in-a-decade kind of prospect; even Urlacher lasted to pick #9, Patrick Willis lasted to pick #11, and Ray Lewis lasted to pick #26.

It's not like the old salary system (or lack thereof) made people less likely to take non-pass-rushing LBs high, since those guys are generally perceived to be "safe" picks and the problem with the old salary scale was the financial risk involved in taking a player high who has a good chance to be a bust.

SenorGato
02-27-2012, 04:43 PM
He's a MLB/ILB. If Patrick Willis couldn't crack top ten then there's no chance in hell...Solid player though.

Caulibflower
02-27-2012, 04:51 PM
Two reasons off the top of my head would be Aaron Curry and AJ Hawk. It's mostly a positional thing and you'd like to see a guy be able to get to the QB.

My guess is he went from being a top 20 pick to a top dozen pick after this weekend but he may slide to the Eagles/Chargers part of the draft.

Those were both 4-3 OLBs, though, weren't they? That's probably the "least important" position on a defense, but a MLB is often the defensive signal-caller and ever team would definitely want to have a real playmaker in the middle of the field. I mean, Patrick Willis is a freak and everyone knew it before he was drafted, and if that draft was done over people would be calling him a good pick if he'd been picked 2nd or 3rd overall. People want to say that when you're picking top-10 you must have needs at these "more important" positions, but I think the reality is that those teams are most likely lacking in talent across the board. So in my humble opinion, if you see an elite player on the board and know he'll play on your team, you just take him. If you think Kuechly is an "elite" talent and you don't already have a stud MLB... I wouldn't want to get caught playing the "Well... we really need a wideout..." game. If you think he's Patrick Willis or Brian Urlacher, you freaking take him, unless you think the wideout you're looking at is a Randy Moss or Larry Fitzgerald. Or whatever position. Ya'll know what I'm saying. Go for the talent. You're never going to turn around your team with one pick, excepting perhaps a truly transcendent talent like John Elway. Or maybe even Cam Newton last year. Who knows yet.

Babylon
02-27-2012, 04:55 PM
you don't draft middle linebackers that high, especially in today's NFL. The only linebackers who go top 10 are ones who can rush the passer now. No more AJ Hawk, Aaron Curry types are gonna go that high. Plus it's not like Kuechly doesn't have some questions, he isn't the perfect player. He's not a guy you can put in man coverage with some of these tight ends and running backs. You can put him in zone coverage and he'll excel, but he's not a Patrick Willis or Brian Urlacher type.

I'll take my chances with him covering every TE in the league not named Gronkowski and Graham. I guess that 4.5 today didnt convince everyone.

Overrall i agree you dont take ILBs that high.

bigbuc
02-27-2012, 05:02 PM
You just got owned bigbuc ;)

When it happens it happens... Can't knock the hustle.

bigbuc
02-27-2012, 05:08 PM
you don't draft middle linebackers that high, but he's not a Patrick Willis or Brian Urlacher type.


How can you say that when he tested as good or better than both of them? Also everyone said the same thing about Kuechly that he's great with his eyes, knows what the play is before the team runs it...

Babylon
02-27-2012, 05:09 PM
Anywhere to see Kuechly's 40 runs?

DeepThreat
02-27-2012, 05:12 PM
How can you say that when he tested as good or better than both of them? Also everyone said the same thing about Kuechly that he's great with his eyes, knows what the play is before the team runs it...

Because testing is everything...

Kuechly is an instinctive player, but he's nothing amazing. If an inside linebacker is going top 10, he better be special.

A Perfect Score
02-27-2012, 05:15 PM
Because testing is everything...

Kuechly is an instinctive player, but he's nothing amazing. If an inside linebacker is going top 10, he better be special.

Or Rolando McClain.

SolidGold
02-27-2012, 05:16 PM
In the last dozen drafts, only three non-pass rushing linebackers have been taken in the top 6: Aaron Curry, A.J. Hawk, LaVar Arrington. None of them were particularly great picks.

Kuechly is not a once-in-a-decade kind of prospect; even Urlacher lasted to pick #9, Patrick Willis lasted to pick #11, and Ray Lewis lasted to pick #26.

It's not like the old salary system (or lack thereof) made people less likely to take non-pass-rushing LBs high, since those guys are generally perceived to be "safe" picks and the problem with the old salary scale was the financial risk involved in taking a player high who has a good chance to be a bust.

Rolando McClain went 8th overall 2 years ago, he is more or less the prototypical type MLB. Granted it was the Raiders that drafted him that high. Keuchly has about the same measurables, has no character issues and was a better college player. If he did go top 10 I would not see it as a big deal but some team would have to be in love with him to do so. Like others have said the value for his position does not usually warrant top 10 draft status.

Caulibflower
02-27-2012, 05:18 PM
Well Ray Lewis wasn't drafted until Pick 26, so I don't think it's fair to lump him in with Urlacher or Willis, both of whom went Top 11. Willis ran a 4.37, which is absolutely astronomical all things considered. I think if he had of ran a 4.6, you would have seen him fall into the 15-20 range Kuechly is predicted for.

So what if Keuchly runs 4.4s at his pro day? Those times are almost always faster, and he was unofficially 4.50 at the combine, iirc. But people knew Willis was really fast already, so his time was more a confirmation of that than something which raised his stock. I remember a lot of people being super high on Willis before he ever had any official numbers. Most places I was looking before the draft this year seemed to have Kuechly as a 4.6 guy, and timing faster than expected I think affects stock a little more dramatically than running slow. A guy runs average, a coach just takes it as it is. He runs faster than you expect, you start looking at him more in terms of potential in addition to whatever body of work he's already produced.

vidae
02-27-2012, 05:21 PM
Man I can't believe how much I loved Rolando McClain coming out. Thank you for drafting Eric Berry instead Pioli!

Iamcanadian
02-27-2012, 05:43 PM
The decline of the run offense makes taking a ILB in the top 10 pretty tough, however this guy will definitely now be a real threat to go that high after he demonstrated in his 40 that he is a 3 down player. Looks like the second coming of Urlacher. I never dreamed he could run that fast.

Babylon
02-27-2012, 05:58 PM
The decline of the run offense makes taking a ILB in the top 10 pretty tough, however this guy will definitely now be a real threat to go that high after he demonstrated in his 40 that he is a 3 down player. Looks like the second coming of Urlacher. I never dreamed he could run that fast.

Not sure he has the ability to be the size of an Urlacher but that speed shocked the #### out of me. It probably answered the only real question, can he cover TEs that can run.

Iamcanadian
02-27-2012, 06:03 PM
Not sure he has the ability to be the size of an Urlacher but that speed shocked the #### out of me. It probably answered the only real question, can he cover TEs that can run.

While his speed definitely shocked me, his overall performance in the rest of the Combine events was way above my expectations as well. He is obviously a superb athlete.

BuddyCHRIST
02-27-2012, 06:04 PM
Positional value is right, a great MLB is almost a luxury. I'm a believer that if you have a great D-Line then most LB's can look pretty good. I mean the Giants LB corps was below average by most standards. Ray Lewis had some struggling years when his D-Line wasn't as good.

But with all that said, since about half of the guys in the top 10 probably won't work out. I would draft this guy in a heartbeat in the 7-10 range because I feel like theres no way he won't be a great player, even if its not at a premium position.

FUNBUNCHER
02-27-2012, 06:32 PM
His 38 inch vert is more impressive to me than his 40 times, which were still faster than I expected.

People looked at Kuechly's insane tackle numbers and assumed they were solely a result of just his instincts and never factored in that maybe the dude can RUN.

Giants/Bears/Eagles/Ravens need this kid.

descendency
02-27-2012, 06:32 PM
Positional value is right, a great MLB is almost a luxury.

I agree with this 100%.

wogitalia
02-27-2012, 08:20 PM
I don't really get why MLB is valued so lowly around the league. A quick look at the top defenses and you can see a decent trend of good to elite MLB play...

The top defenses last year were Pittsburgh, Houston, Baltimore, San Fran and New York, all 5 of those teams have some of the top MLBs in the league.

Obviously it isn't everything but the Ravens have basically been the best defense of the past decade and they've had a real constant in the middle.

I'm not saying Kuechly is a Ray Lewis level talent but if a team thinks he can be, they absolutely should take him top 10.

My thoughts on OG's should be well known, I think in the modern game they are as important, if not more so, than tackles. I'd absolutely take DeCastro top 10 especially with the scaled contracts.

bigbuc
02-27-2012, 09:01 PM
I think with scaled contracts anyone can be drafted anywhere now a days.

PossibleCabbage
02-27-2012, 09:16 PM
I think with scaled contracts anyone can be drafted anywhere now a days.

I think actually the rookie salary system encourages teams to take risks rather than settle for safe players.

I mean, in the old way if you take a player and he sucks, not only are you out the draft picks you are also out something like $40m against the cap. Nowadays, if you take a player and he sucks, you're out the pick and only about $20m against the cap.

So if you have the option of taking a safe pick, or a guy who has a 50% chance of being twice as good as the safe pick and a 50% chance of being terrible, then it's comparatively safer to take the risky pick now that you're not guaranteeing him so much money.

In 2008, Vernon Gholston was selected sixth overall and given a 5 year contract worth $50m with $21m guaranteed. In 2011 the player selected 6th (Julio Jones) received a fully guaranteed four year $16.183m. So if in 2012 you had a choice between a risky pick with huge ceiling (like Gholston was) or a safe pick with a low ceiling (like Kuechly is) why wouldn't you take the guy with more upside, knowing that the penalty for being wrong is so low.

lowlife
02-27-2012, 09:31 PM
How can you say that when he tested as good or better than both of them? Also everyone said the same thing about Kuechly that he's great with his eyes, knows what the play is before the team runs it...
So wait, the Combine is the sole determinant of how good a player will be and where he's drafted?

Thanks Big *** Al, I guess rumors of your demise yada yada yada

vidae
02-27-2012, 09:53 PM
I think actually the rookie salary system encourages teams to take risks rather than settle for safe players.

Yeah, I agree. Risk isn't as risky as it used to be, and I'd much rather gamble a bit more now than back in the day because it doesn't cost as much.

dolphinfan2k5
02-27-2012, 10:24 PM
You have to consider the opportunity cost. If you think Kuechly is the next Urlacher, and you gamble on someone else with a 50% bust chance, you are losing the opportunity to acquire the next Urlacher, and might not have another opportunity like that again. Obviously this works in the reverse as well.

Complex
02-27-2012, 10:29 PM
How many LBs that are top 10 picks but not pass rushers work out? I don't remember any recently.

PossibleCabbage
02-27-2012, 10:41 PM
How many LBs that are top 10 picks but not pass rushers work out? I don't remember any recently.

Last 11 years, top 10 LBs who weren't pass rushers:

2011: none
2010: Rolando McClain (too early to tell, but not a superstar).
2009: Aaron Curry (terrible pick, no longer with team)
2008: Keith Rivers (poor pick, average player), Jerod Mayo (decent pick, good player, but limited impact)
2007: none
2006: A.J. Hawk (poor pick, average player), Ernie Sims (terrible pick, no longer with team)
2005: None
2004: None
2003: None
2002: None
2001: None

whatadai
02-28-2012, 12:12 AM
Jerod Mayo (decent pick, good player, but limited impact)


Please explain how he's only had a limited impact.

descendency
02-28-2012, 12:14 AM
Please explain how he's only had a limited impact.

He's a tackle machine, but doesn't cause fumbles or get interceptions.

whatadai
02-28-2012, 12:53 AM
He's a tackle machine, but doesn't cause fumbles or get interceptions.

2010 wasn't so bad in my opinion...and 2011 could have been similar if he wasn't moved and he wasn't injured. But I see why he's not worth a top 10 pick. I think that's the problem though...people think a top 10 pick should make big plays a lot, but a top 10 pick could be valuable if he plugs a huge hole...one that kept a team from the playoffs.

bigbuc
02-28-2012, 01:02 AM
2010 wasn't so bad in my opinion...and 2011 could have been similar if he wasn't moved and he wasn't injured. But I see why he's not worth a top 10 pick. I think that's the problem though...people think a top 10 pick should make big plays a lot, but a top 10 pick could be valuable if he plugs a huge hole...one that kept a team from the playoffs.


I don't think teams that are picking top ten are one player away from the playoffs.

duesouth
02-28-2012, 09:38 AM
Kuechly has short arms and plays like it - tends to peel back off blocks - makes a ton of tackles 5+ yard downfield. I didn't think he would run slow as he has a nice burst to the ball. Only take him high if you have a good (and big) defensive line to keep him clean - otherwise avoid early.

Go_Eagles77
02-28-2012, 09:51 AM
Kuechly has short arms and plays like it - tends to peel back off blocks - makes a ton of tackles 5+ yard downfield. I didn't think he would run slow as he has a nice burst to the ball. Only take him high if you have a good (and big) defensive line to keep him clean - otherwise avoid early.

This is why I've become less interested in Kuechly to the eagles recently. Dont'a Hightower is the best MLB in the draft for the eagles' wide 9 scheme. I honestly wouldn't mind if the eagles took Hightower 15th overall.

PossibleCabbage
02-28-2012, 09:54 AM
wide 9 scheme.

"Wide Nine" is a technique, not a scheme.

</pet peeve>

What the Eagles are basically doing is running an updated version of Jimmy Johnson's defense (also to a lesser extent Jim Bates'). In that scheme a player like Kuechly is a much better fit than Hightower, since you need an LB who is always going to be in the right place and can cover a lot of ground. That's not Hightower.

Go_Eagles77
02-28-2012, 09:58 AM
"Wide Nine" is a technique, not a scheme.

</pet peeve>

What the Eagles are basically doing is running an updated version of Jimmy Johnson's defense (also to a lesser extent Jim Bates'). In that scheme a player like Kuechly is a much better fit than Hightower, since you need an LB who is always going to be in the right place and can cover a lot of ground. That's not Hightower.

We had plenty of guys who can cover ground last year, but none of them can get off blocks. Kuechly would still be a huge upgrade, but Hightower would be able to get off blocks and get down hill much more efficiently.

keylime_5
02-28-2012, 09:59 AM
I don't think teams that are picking top ten are one player away from the playoffs.

except the colts, who literally were one player difference from #1 pick to playoffs, haha.

A Perfect Score
02-28-2012, 11:24 AM
except the colts, who literally were one player difference from #1 pick to playoffs, haha.

And, ironically enough, that player as a QB, not a LB...further illustrating why Kuechly won't go in the Top 10, despite being an extremely talented football player.

Babylon
02-28-2012, 02:39 PM
except the colts, who literally were one player difference from #1 pick to playoffs, haha.

Can't say for sure. The Colts have/had problems even without Peyton. I say they may have been a .500 team.

As for Kuechly if some team like the Eagles dont want him there will be several others waiting in line.

igglefanz
02-29-2012, 06:50 AM
"Wide Nine" is a technique, not a scheme.

</pet peeve>

What the Eagles are basically doing is running an updated version of Jimmy Johnson's defense (also to a lesser extent Jim Bates'). In that scheme a player like Kuechly is a much better fit than Hightower, since you need an LB who is always going to be in the right place and can cover a lot of ground. That's not Hightower.

Actually no the Eagles went from one of the highest blitzing teams to one of the lowest. They expect to get pressure alot of the time rushing only 4. We need a physical presence up the middle and Luke is NOT that. Matthews Rolle and Chaney are all fast and can cover ground.

I was worried that Donta wouldn't grade out very good at the combine but I am OK now with taking him if he is there.

cmarq83
02-29-2012, 07:42 AM
This is why I've become less interested in Kuechly to the eagles recently. Dont'a Hightower is the best MLB in the draft for the eagles' wide 9 scheme. I honestly wouldn't mind if the eagles took Hightower 15th overall.

Kuechly probably isn't the best linebacker at shedding blocks in this draft class, but he's pretty much superior to Hightower in every other aspect. You have to remember just how god awful that BC team was, and how he almost single-handedly kept that defense respectable. He didn't have Chapman, Cody, or Dareus taking up blockers for him, and he had a big nasty coming down at him on essentially every single play. He tends to resort to the spin to shed blocks more often than he should which makes him a step late sometimes or makes him take a flatter angle to the ball carrier, but at the same time it's not like he's bad at shedding blocks. He's still an above average prospect in this respect.

So the Eagles would have the choice to pick a guy who has been pretty average for most of his career, but has good size and combine numbers, or take a guy who has pretty much been the best linebacker in college football since he's set foot on BC's campus. I'd take Kuechly in any scheme or at any linebacker position besides 3-4 OLB over Hightower in a heartbeat. You may have some guys who're fast, but in reality there is a difference between being fast and being instinctive and fast. It's why Gary Guyton sucks for the Patriots and Jerod Mayo is one of the better linebackers in the NFL.

bigbuc
08-22-2013, 08:18 PM
Ok after his rookie season and a DROY. And the beast of the game he had tonight. This guy looks to be top 2 MLB in the league. Just had to bring this back so we could talk a little about how big of a monster he is.

Also like I said... should have been a top 6 pick.

Babylon
08-23-2013, 11:14 AM
Ok after his rookie season and a DROY. And the beast of the game he had tonight. This guy looks to be top 2 MLB in the league. Just had to bring this back so we could talk a little about how big of a monster he is.

Also like I said... should have been a top 6 pick.

As great as he's been i'm not sure anyone in the top 6 would rethink their pick. In hindsight he could have gone 7th instead of Mark Barron.

Big Bird
08-23-2013, 12:26 PM
Ok after his rookie season and a DROY. And the beast of the game he had tonight. This guy looks to be top 2 MLB in the league. Just had to bring this back so we could talk a little about how big of a monster he is.

Also like I said... should have been a top 6 pick.
As long as that other top inside backer is Sean Lee, then I agree.

D-Unit
08-23-2013, 12:55 PM
The question was never about how good he was. The reason he wasn't a Top 6 pick was because Linebacker isn't as much of a premium position.

Scott Wright
08-23-2013, 02:40 PM
I had Kuechly at #7 overall in my final rankings.

I don't really recall there being an anti-Kuechly faction. It seems like just about everyone felt he was a very good football player and a safe prospect. As D-Unit said the reason Kuchley wasn't more highly regarded nationally was the positional value aspect.

K Train
08-23-2013, 04:56 PM
The question was never about how good he was. The reason he wasn't a Top 6 pick was because Linebacker isn't as much of a premium position.

its also because the thought of drafting an Aaron Curry or AJ Hawk in the top 6 makes team cringe...and AJ hawk is a decent pro

K Train
08-23-2013, 04:58 PM
I had Kuechly at #7 overall in my final rankings.

I don't really recall there being an anti-Kuechly faction. It seems like just about everyone felt he was a very good football player and a safe prospect. As D-Unit said the reason Kuchley wasn't more highly regarded nationally was the positional value aspect.

there wasnt anti Curry faction either, and when asked who was better between any linebacker prospect the last decade you said "its Curry"

Its just very tough to project 43 LBers in the top half of the first round, which is why a lot of them fall

bucfan12
08-23-2013, 06:18 PM
Lets all not get excited over a pre-season game. What I saw out of Keuchly last year was a pile jumper who didnt make enough plays at the LOS or behind it. The images of Doug Martin running through him still make get up and bark ! ha.

One preseason game does not change my opinion. He made/makes too many tackles down the field.

bucfan12
08-23-2013, 06:21 PM
Ok after his rookie season and a DROY. And the beast of the game he had tonight. This guy looks to be top 2 MLB in the league. Just had to bring this back so we could talk a little about how big of a monster he is.

Also like I said... should have been a top 6 pick.

You have a boner over Keuchly after 1 preseason game? Sheesh. I can name :
- Willis
- Bowman
- Lee
- Laurenitis
- Wahsington

All those guys are better than Keuchly. Keuchly was a pile jumper. He reminds me of Barrett Ruud. Many similarities. Makes a ton of tackles but not enough at hte LOS.

Scott Wright
08-23-2013, 06:24 PM
there wasnt anti Curry faction either, and when asked who was better between any linebacker prospect the last decade you said "its Curry"

Its just very tough to project 43 LBers in the top half of the first round, which is why a lot of them fall

If you are talking pure 4-3 OLB's I think Curry probably ranks right up there with the best of the 2000's based on their grades coming out of college. With that said I didn't grade Curry as "Elite".

It does seem as though teams are becoming less and less willing to invest a premium draft choices on linebackers who doesn't rush the passer these days.

Caulibflower
08-23-2013, 06:41 PM
What would it take for a MLB to be considered a top-5 lock these days? It seems like you'd want a guy who was an effective pass defender as well as a run-stopper, almost like an XL strong safety in the middle of the defense who can cover tight ends, drop running backs and make the defensive calls, but have the strength and physicality to shed offensive linemen and make plays in heavy traffic. Seems like if an MLB is going to be considered a blue-chip prospect anymore, he'd have to be extremely versatile, otherwise the team that drafts him is going to be compensating for some defienciency, somehow, whether it's with a safety taking some of the coverage pressure off of the linebacker, or other stouter players taking some of the physical burden off of a fast, fluid linebacker so he can make tackles. So, if I was going to draft a middle linebacker in the top-5, I'd want:

6'+
240 lbs +
4.55 or faster
High intelligence - can diagnose plays and relay that information to his teammates
Strong instincts - knows where to be and is there
Good agility and loose hips - for coverage ability and to not be juked by jitterbugs
Strong technique - ability to shed blocks and consistly make good tackles
Willingness to tackle/aggressiveness and desire for contact

I think if a player has those things and a team needs a middle linebacker, then he's worth a top-5 pick, because he'll be the glue in the middle of the defense and it's important, even if the NFL isn't as much about running backs and linebackers anymore. There are a lot of linebackers who have a lot of these traits, but not too many who are strong in all of them.

bigbuc
08-23-2013, 08:22 PM
You have a boner over Keuchly after 1 preseason game? Sheesh. I can name :
- Willis
- Bowman
- Lee
- Laurenitis
- Wahsington

All those guys are better than Keuchly. Keuchly was a pile jumper. He reminds me of Barrett Ruud. Many similarities. Makes a ton of tackles but not enough at hte LOS.

Not after one game. I wanted our Bucs to draft him. He did win DROY last year.

In my book the only two that could even be in the convo with Keuchly is Bowman and Willis. The fact that you put Lee or Laurenitis up there shows that you've let who you root for and who Keuchly plays for in your process. When it should just be his play that does the talking.

bigbuc
08-23-2013, 08:49 PM
.

It does seem as though teams are becoming less and less willing to invest a premium draft choices on linebackers who doesn't rush the passer these days.

I've been saying that for ever. Willis fell to 11th when he should have been a top 5 pick. Keuchly was picked at 9 which is the highest.

But NFL teams have this problem with LB's that just tackle.
Sean Lee
Lavonte David
Daryl Washington
NaVorro Bowman
Chad Greenway
Paul Posluszny
James Laurinaitis

All these guys come into the draft and all everyone says is they can play great football, but because all they do is see ball, get ball. Most drop to the 2nd round. When in fact if you redraft any of the years these guy got drafted they'd be drafted 15 to 20 spots higher.

bucfan12
08-23-2013, 09:55 PM
Not after one game. I wanted our Bucs to draft him. He did win DROY last year.

In my book the only two that could even be in the convo with Keuchly is Bowman and Willis. The fact that you put Lee or Laurenitis up there shows that you've let who you root for and who Keuchly plays for in your process. When it should just be his play that does the talking.

Not really fellow buc fan. I actually did not want Keuchly drafted to Tampa last year, too many tackles down the field. Regardless of who drafted him, my opinion wouldn't have changed, until he proved me wrong.

So don't call my opinion due to the team I root for.

On another note, Freeman sucks and won;t take us to the playoffs. Hows that for being a homer?

prock
08-23-2013, 10:34 PM
You have a boner over Keuchly after 1 preseason game? Sheesh. I can name :
- Willis
- Bowman
- Lee
- Laurenitis
- Wahsington

All those guys are better than Keuchly. Keuchly was a pile jumper. He reminds me of Barrett Ruud. Many similarities. Makes a ton of tackles but not enough at hte LOS.

This is what people say about like every MLB tackling machine these days, ESPECIALLY Laurenitis.

FUNBUNCHER
08-24-2013, 06:38 AM
You have a boner over Keuchly after 1 preseason game? Sheesh. I can name :
- Willis
- Bowman
- Lee
- Laurenitis
- Wahsington

All those guys are better than Keuchly. Keuchly was a pile jumper. He reminds me of Barrett Ruud. Many similarities. Makes a ton of tackles but not enough at hte LOS.

LOL. Washington isn't 240#. Laurinaitis doesn't have Kuechly's range, Lee can't stay healthy and IMO isn't as instinctive as Kuechly. I don't think any MIKE in the game has Kuechly's pure diagnostic skills.

You can't be a 'pile jumper' if you're consistently the first defender to the ball carrier.

Nobody in their right mind would trade Kuechly for Washington/Laurinaitis/Lee.

It's a push for Willis and Bowman.
IMO Kuechly is that good and appears so far to be improved over his DROTY season.

cmarq83
08-24-2013, 06:57 AM
By the end of this year or next, I think Kuechly will be to MLB's what JJ Watt is to DE's. Even a guy like Willis will take a backseat to him. He has everything he needs in his toolbox, and with another season of experience I see him taking a big leap in the 2 biggest areas of weakness in his game; pass coverage and stacking/shedding. The man just knows where the football is going to go, and has the athleticism to get there quickly. He probably has one of the best football senses of anyone alive, and in his second year there are already signs that those things are manifesting themselves more often on the field.

MassNole
08-24-2013, 07:30 AM
I am surprised how good he has been in the NFL. Talent aside, he was the beneficiary of the most blatantly disgusting stat padding ion the history of CFB.

bucfan12
08-24-2013, 08:03 AM
da ng, after one pre-season game, everyone going off about Keuchly? His stats were padded his rookie year. He didn't make enough plays at the LOS. He reminded me of Barrett Ruud coming out of school.

FUNBUNCHER
08-24-2013, 08:07 AM
I am surprised how good he has been in the NFL. Talent aside, he was the beneficiary of the most blatantly disgusting stat padding ion the history of CFB.


I watched more than my fair share of BC games 2010-11 and Kuechly was one of those who if you wanted to know where the football was going, all you had to do is watch him. Many games it seemed like he made every single tackle for Boston College, so I don't agree his stats were padded.

He often outran his own guys to make tackles teed up for someone else.

Stat-padding for tackles is when a guy is the 2nd or 3rd defender to the ball and given credit for a tackle. Kuechly was either the first or second guy tackling a ballcarrier.

Are you really complaining about the legitimacy of his stats at BC??:facepalm:

Keep up. We're on NFL time now.

FUNBUNCHER
08-24-2013, 08:14 AM
da ng, after one pre-season game, everyone going off about Keuchly? His stats were padded his rookie year. He didn't make enough plays at the LOS. He reminded me of Barrett Ruud coming out of school.
LOL. It kills me that a rival ACC and NFCS fan are suggesting Kuechly is overrated.

If Kuechly trends anywhere close to how he played against the Ravens preseason, he's on track for a DPOTY campaign.

Every time I read Kuechly compared to Barrett Ruud, it sounds like bad a joke.:banana:

cmarq83
08-24-2013, 08:44 AM
da ng, after one pre-season game, everyone going off about Keuchly? His stats were padded his rookie year. He didn't make enough plays at the LOS. He reminded me of Barrett Ruud coming out of school.

Yeah he totally didn't make an impact at all. Total JAG. That's why the Panthers went from like 30th in DYPG week 5 and finished about 7th or 8th the rest of the way when Kuechly switched to MLB. Total Barrett Ruud. :njx:

bucfan12
08-24-2013, 09:05 AM
LOL. It kills me that a rival ACC and NFCS fan are suggesting Kuechly is overrated.

If Kuechly trends anywhere close to how he played against the Ravens preseason, he's on track for a DPOTY campaign.

Every time I read Kuechly compared to Barrett Ruud, it sounds like bad a joke.:banana:

Not really biased against the Panthers. I was actually telling my Buc fans that they looked pretty good. Loutelleli is going to be the next Ngata for you guys for years and Short is perfect for the 3 tech with Hardy and Johnson rushing outside. I've even said how Mark Dominik, a few yhears back, can even think of passing on Hardy for a damn punter.

I didn't like Keuchly coming out and I didn't see much impressiveness through the games I watched last year. Didn't make enough impact plays at the LOS and made several tackles down field. I watched him get run through a couple times as well, ala Barrett Ruud, who made several tackles but not enough plays.

To put it clear, when I saw Keuckly mocked to the Bucs in 2012, I squirmed. So it;'s not just the Panthers.

BTW, I also think the Panthers can finish 2nd in that division. I think Atlanta is the clear cut winner. Bucs: Freeman needs to get his head out of his rear end (no explicity ) or they're going t get trounced.

cmarq83
08-24-2013, 11:31 AM
Not really biased against the Panthers. I was actually telling my Buc fans that they looked pretty good. Loutelleli is going to be the next Ngata for you guys for years and Short is perfect for the 3 tech with Hardy and Johnson rushing outside. I've even said how Mark Dominik, a few yhears back, can even think of passing on Hardy for a damn punter.

I didn't like Keuchly coming out and I didn't see much impressiveness through the games I watched last year. Didn't make enough impact plays at the LOS and made several tackles down field. I watched him get run through a couple times as well, ala Barrett Ruud, who made several tackles but not enough plays.

To put it clear, when I saw Keuckly mocked to the Bucs in 2012, I squirmed. So it;'s not just the Panthers.

BTW, I also think the Panthers can finish 2nd in that division. I think Atlanta is the clear cut winner. Bucs: Freeman needs to get his head out of his rear end (no explicity ) or they're going t get trounced.

Honestly it takes a very untrained football eye to see what Kuechly did at BC and find it unimpressive. Rarely if ever does any collegiate LB get placed with the kind of responsibility and challenge that Kuechly did at BC. The Eagles primarily played in nickel, and Kuechly had pass coverage drops that very few players are even capable of.

Obviously when you're accumulating 190 tackles in college it's unreasonable to think that >50% are going to be within 2-3 yards of the LOS. If they were then that person would be the greatest MLB who ever lived. However, the notion that tackling someone down the field is always an average or bad play is ridiculous.

For example a very common play at BC for Kuechly was a tackle 7ish yards down the field on a stretch play against their nickel defense. Kevin Pierre-Lewis would be the play-side backer and the opposing offense would seal both him and the end. The RB would turn the corner unmolested. Kuechly would fight off the sealing Tackle or end from the away side and take as flat of an angle as he could eventually forcing the RB out of bounds. Considering that he's essentially the 6th or 7th most likely player to make the tackle from that position and defeated a block to get there, that is a fantastic play.

There are so many nuances to Kuechly's game that are hard to pick up, but he limited so much damage at BC. He was exceptional in pass coverage, and even though you may say he didn't make enough tackles at the LOS, he made 4-5 every single game. Guys like Kendricks or Hightower looked more disruptive simply because they had the freedom to do so. They blitzed 10ish times a game. Those may make a nicer highlight film, but that doesn't give you the same impact on the field.

You can tell his impact just by looking at the teams he joined and left. Carolina got substantially better defensively once he was inserted at MLB, and BC turned into a trainwreck once he left despite returning 9 starters on defense. They allowed almost a full touchdown more a game and 700 more yards on the ground than they did in 2011. He dragged those BC teams to respectability despite them having an offense consistently ranked in the hundreds, and marginal talent elsewhere defensively.

Now that he has another year's experience and some guys who can keep lineman off of him for the first time in his pro or collegiate career, I expect him to take an even bigger leap.

SolidGold
08-24-2013, 02:47 PM
Honestly it takes a very untrained football eye to see what Kuechly did at BC and find it unimpressive. Rarely if ever does any collegiate LB get placed with the kind of responsibility and challenge that Kuechly did at BC. The Eagles primarily played in nickel, and Kuechly had pass coverage drops that very few players are even capable of.

Obviously when you're accumulating 190 tackles in college it's unreasonable to think that >50% are going to be within 2-3 yards of the LOS. If they were then that person would be the greatest MLB who ever lived. However, the notion that tackling someone down the field is always an average or bad play is ridiculous.

For example a very common play at BC for Kuechly was a tackle 7ish yards down the field on a stretch play against their nickel defense. Kevin Pierre-Lewis would be the play-side backer and the opposing offense would seal both him and the end. The RB would turn the corner unmolested. Kuechly would fight off the sealing Tackle or end from the away side and take as flat of an angle as he could eventually forcing the RB out of bounds. Considering that he's essentially the 6th or 7th most likely player to make the tackle from that position and defeated a block to get there, that is a fantastic play.

There are so many nuances to Kuechly's game that are hard to pick up, but he limited so much damage at BC. He was exceptional in pass coverage, and even though you may say he didn't make enough tackles at the LOS, he made 4-5 every single game. Guys like Kendricks or Hightower looked more disruptive simply because they had the freedom to do so. They blitzed 10ish times a game. Those may make a nicer highlight film, but that doesn't give you the same impact on the field.

You can tell his impact just by looking at the teams he joined and left. Carolina got substantially better defensively once he was inserted at MLB, and BC turned into a trainwreck once he left despite returning 9 starters on defense. They allowed almost a full touchdown more a game and 700 more yards on the ground than they did in 2011. He dragged those BC teams to respectability despite them having an offense consistently ranked in the hundreds, and marginal talent elsewhere defensively.

Now that he has another year's experience and some guys who can keep lineman off of him for the first time in his pro or collegiate career, I expect him to take an even bigger leap.

wow Bucfan sorry you just got owned.

Babylon
08-24-2013, 03:13 PM
I am surprised how good he has been in the NFL. Talent aside, he was the beneficiary of the most blatantly disgusting stat padding ion the history of CFB.

If only he played in a real conferance like FSU does.

niel89
08-24-2013, 05:08 PM
He was a great player in college but I questioned if he had the athleticism and explosiveness to be an impact performer in the NFL. His instincts were crazy at BC. He always just was around the ball.

Robcards
08-24-2013, 05:29 PM
Kuechly is going to be the best inside linebacker in the league eventually if he isn't already. He is one of the best athletes (yes, even though he's white lolracism), almost always takes perfect pursuit angles, has incredible football instincts, is smart, etc. etc. What more do you want from the guy? As someone who's played MLB, watching Kuechly play is a thing of beauty.

Hall of famer in the making, haters:

http://medias.omgif.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/deal-with-it.gif

Kyle472
08-25-2013, 11:14 AM
His not even the 2nd best 2nd year LB Wagner and David are still 1-2, until that PFF top 100 list comes out a Kuechly is ranked higher then them he is still behind them.

Ozzy
08-25-2013, 02:48 PM
Like others have said there are certain positions that just simply get picked high in the draft. I would say it goes like this top to bottom. And possibly now the OLB/DE pass rusher might have moved ahead of the great OT but with the QB obsessions the great OT still might have the edge of that.

QB
OT
OLB/DE pass rusher
DT



QtVOSMRgo1k&feature=player_detailpage
If people did not watch the preseason game against the Ravens, Kuechly was insanely good in it. Anyone that questions him as an elite player is simply wrong. And yes of course he should have been picked higher, as should have other prospects like many have already said.

I had him as the best linebacker prospect in the nation in 2010, great to see him living up to that in the NFL.
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43963&highlight=kuechly



But with the list of players already mentioned, you take Alec Ogeltree this past 2013 draft, no way in hell he should have dropped as far as he did, and he is playing great this preseason, amazing coverage skills shown against the Broncos. Same with Te'o but what else is new, inside linebacker dropped.



Doubt things will change much, it is all about the quarterback in the NFL, protecting them on offense and getting to them on defense.

bucfan12
08-25-2013, 06:12 PM
^^^^

Dude the dumbest thing for evidence is to use a preseason game highlights. If he continues this to this year, then I'll eat crow.

also, Ogeltree is a freak athletically, but he lacks discipline, instincts, and is off the field headache.

FUNBUNCHER
08-25-2013, 09:32 PM
^^^^

Dude the dumbest thing for evidence is to use a preseason game highlights. If he continues this to this year, then I'll eat crow.

also, Ogeltree is a freak athletically, but he lacks discipline, instincts, and is off the field headache.


The preseason is very relevant for defensive players. Lawrence Taylor's rep started in preseason. Clay MatthewsIII made a splash in preseason.
Von Miller looked like a future beast in preseason too.

You can't make generalities about TEAMS in preseason play, but you can for sure isolate the play of individual players, especially LBs.
Kuechly looks like a better MIKE now than he was last season, which is significant.

bucfan12
08-26-2013, 04:56 PM
The preseason is very relevant for defensive players. Lawrence Taylor's rep started in preseason. Clay MatthewsIII made a splash in preseason.
Von Miller looked like a future beast in preseason too.

You can't make generalities about TEAMS in preseason play, but you can for sure isolate the play of individual players, especially LBs.
Kuechly looks like a better MIKE now than he was last season, which is significant.

This all may be true and I'll eat crow if/when it occurs. But for people to get all hyped up off one preseason game, is well, a little overblown.

FUNBUNCHER
08-26-2013, 06:02 PM
This all may be true and I'll eat crow if/when it occurs. But for people to get all hyped up off one preseason game, is well, a little overblown.


LOL. If Kuechly played for the Bucs you'd be buying his jersey.

Ozzy
08-26-2013, 08:26 PM
bucfan12

This all may be true and I'll eat crow if/when it occurs. But for people to get all hyped up off one preseason game, is well, a little overblown.Football is football, starting talent is starting talent. He was not doing that against backups or against a bad team.

Sure it does not show everything is all world, but still not quite sure how you do not think last year was proof enough he can play in the league.

What exactly do you not like about him? The fact he plays hard? His good instincts in reading play designs? His athletic ability? His conditioning? His speed and coverage abilities? Or he does not get enough sacks for you.... please.

gpngc
08-26-2013, 08:46 PM
Preseason reps don't count for some people.

It's insane. It's still football. You aren't supposed to draw conclusions based on game results because teams are focused on sorting certain things out rather than winning.

But it's absolutely important and meaningful to evaluate the reps individual players get. Think about when you had a scrimmage before the season started. It's still important and the good players would still show well. That happens in the NFL too. Stars start out in preseason. They tend to do well there because they are good at football.

Preseason SCORES don't matter in any way. But for young players - evaluating their reps against a different color jersey is absolutely an important tool and can be used as a predictor of success. Notice I didn't say evaluating stats.

Iamcanadian
08-26-2013, 09:44 PM
I love Kuechly but being DROTY in the NFL almost always goes to LB's, especially ILB's, because they can easily put up stats for all to see. However, they are often overrated and not as good as advertised in a passing league. Demeco Ryans was a good example of this.
Personally I believe Kuechly is a solid player because of his speed and a far better player than Ryans, just saying you have to be careful when judging ILB's, even if they win awards as a rookie.

bucfan12
08-26-2013, 09:56 PM
Football is football, starting talent is starting talent. He was not doing that against backups or against a bad team.

Sure it does not show everything is all world, but still not quite sure how you do not think last year was proof enough he can play in the league.

What exactly do you not like about him? The fact he plays hard? His good instincts in reading play designs? His athletic ability? His conditioning? His speed and coverage abilities? Or he does not get enough sacks for you.... please.

I don't think he's phyiscal enough to play the MLB. I think his tackles were blown up to many plays made 5 yards from the LOS. He wasn't knifing through the gaps. Heck, Lavonte David had more TFLs than Keuchly.

I think Keuchly could be solid, but I didn't like him as an ELITE LB coming out. If things turn around and what we saw IN PRESEASON translate to the regular season, I WILL EAT CROW.

I watched him absolutely get trounced by Doug Martin in both games against Tampa as well. Lets see him not get run over next time.

bucfan12
08-26-2013, 09:56 PM
I love Kuechly but being DROTY in the NFL almost always goes to LB's, especially ILB's, because they can easily put up stats for all to see. However, they are often overrated and not as good as advertised in a passing league. Demeco Ryans was a good example of this.
Personally I believe Kuechly is a solid player because of his speed and a far better player than Ryans, just saying you have to be careful when judging ILB's, even if they win awards as a rookie.

I do believe Keuchly is above average in pass coverage and looking to improve that aspect.

Ozzy
08-27-2013, 07:36 AM
bucfan12

I don't think he's phyiscal enough to play the MLB. I think his tackles were blown up to many plays made 5 yards from the LOS. He wasn't knifing through the gaps. Heck, Lavonte David had more TFLs than Keuchly.

I think Keuchly could be solid, but I didn't like him as an ELITE LB coming out. If things turn around and what we saw IN PRESEASON translate to the regular season, I WILL EAT CROW. I hope you know that a crow is one of the most intelligent animals on earth, however I am also pretty sure they taste like absolute ****.

And you can ask Bernard Pierce if Kuechly is a physical player or not. Not physical enough? That is a joke. He did not have a very solid front last year, which is something every single linebacker needs, now with Star and Short that will really improve that entire defense .

Black Bolt
08-30-2013, 09:16 PM
Some of you are insane. He should have been a top ten pick. So should have
Wagner for that matter. Luke didn't go mainly because he was white and Bobby didn't go because of the non BCS conference school he went to IMO. Rolando McLame went in the top ten.

Cigaro
08-30-2013, 09:46 PM
Some of you are insane. He should have been a top ten pick. So should have
Wagner for that matter. Luke didn't go mainly because he was white and Bobby didn't go because of the non BCS conference school he went to IMO. Rolando McLame went in the top ten.

Kuechly was a top ten pick.

Black Bolt
09-02-2013, 08:51 AM
I know, I'm saying it was always justified.

WCH
09-02-2013, 11:52 AM
Some of you are insane. He should have been a top ten pick. So should have
Wagner for that matter. Luke didn't go mainly because he was white and Bobby didn't go because of the non BCS conference school he went to IMO. Rolando McLame went in the top ten.

Nobody gives a crap if an ILB prospect is white.

Dacitykats
09-02-2013, 08:49 PM
Luke has insane instincts and is a pretty athletic guy. as a carolina guy, i didnt want Luke because this team has invested in so many LBs in the 1st round. i knew he would have to get off blocks better, but also knew that would happen after he gets into a NFL weight program. this guy will be pushing for DPOTY this year.i also thought at BC his tackles where because he would mop up plays, but it was also because he just has a nose for the ball.

he competes very hard, and has a nasty side to him which is always a plus. he has made Beason expendable which the panthers have done being he took a paycut and will have his contract ripped up at the end of this year.he is a pretty good LB.

Black Bolt
09-03-2013, 08:22 PM
Nobody gives a crap if an ILB prospect is white.

No, but it sometimes causes people to question top tier athleticism.