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Bulldogs
03-02-2012, 02:10 PM
Apparently from 2009-11 the Saints had players put money in a cash pool, and were paid for hurting players or knocking them out of games. I'm sure they aren't the only team, but there was a huge investigation by the NFL and they were caught. They will now probably be penalized. Thoughts?

I'll get a link in a second.

vidae
03-02-2012, 02:11 PM
It's all over NFLN now. They're screwed.

Bulldogs
03-02-2012, 02:12 PM
Here's the link.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7638603/new-orleans-saints-defense-had-bounty-program-nfl-says

FlyingElvis
03-02-2012, 02:12 PM
Oh yay, a "scandal" to which the media will immediately attach the word "gate."


Que the idealist fools who will feel like this is some atrocity that their organization Would never do.

Matthew Jones
03-02-2012, 02:13 PM
And now Williams is playing for Jeff Fisher, whose Titans teams were consistently regarded as extremely dirty by opposing players. What a surprise.

Crazy_Chris
03-02-2012, 02:14 PM
Yea I have been seeing this all over twitter... I am not shocked, it was fairly obvious that the Saints defense were trying to hit Brett even if it was late in the '09 NFCCG.

Edit:Adam Schefter tweeted that Gregg Williams administered the bounty program

Ravens1991
03-02-2012, 02:14 PM
I cant believe they got caught honestly. One year Suggs said on first take talked about how they dont like rookie RBs talking **** so the bounty was out on Mendenhall and the bounty is out on Ward. When they said bounties were illegal he said he thought a bounty was people just looking for people with no $ involved and we werent caught.

Bulldogs
03-02-2012, 02:14 PM
They are saying it was the reason Kurt Warner and Brett Favre got hurt against them. I remember that Warner hit being huge, he got jacked up by some defensive end after throwing a pick. They for sure weren't the only team doing this, hell, I'd guess the majority of the teams have something like this.

mightytitan9
03-02-2012, 02:14 PM
After all that and they still couldn't stop anyone on D

NOLAFan
03-02-2012, 02:14 PM
sounds like Greg Williams to me

Saints-Tigers
03-02-2012, 02:15 PM
Maybe they should start a new pool, where players get money for being good on defense.

BmoreBlackByrdz
03-02-2012, 02:16 PM
I mean, with all the rules built up to help the offenses these days, I guess this is what defenses are forced to do. lol

FlyingElvis
03-02-2012, 02:17 PM
still bitter?

:P

I'm sure I have no idea what you mean.


Also, http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r39/dmc27sinned/smily%20guys/wavey_f_off.gif

Jimmy
03-02-2012, 02:19 PM
Oh yay, a "scandal" to which the media will immediately attach the word "gate."


Que the idealist fools who will feel like this is some atrocity that their organization Would never do.

Slaughtergate!

Giantsfan1080
03-02-2012, 02:22 PM
This is so dumb. I hope the penalty isn't anything crazy.

Crazy_Chris
03-02-2012, 02:23 PM
The program runs in violation of league rules, and the investigation showed that Saints players received $1,500 for a “knockout” hit and $1,000 for a “cart-off” hit with payouts doubling or tripling during the team's three playoffs appearance.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82757bcd/article/nfl-says-saints-created-bounty-program-from-20092011?campaign=Twitter_breaking

SuperPacker
03-02-2012, 02:23 PM
Slaughtergate!

Injurygate?

FlyingElvis
03-02-2012, 02:24 PM
Slaughtergate!

Injurygate?

You both give the media too much credit. It's a lock to be BountyGate.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 02:34 PM
Good. I like bounties. **** offense.

They can go after defenders knees, cheap shot them (Looking at you Hines), pull on their face masks, etc.

But god forbid you hit an offensive player. All these damn diva WRs who can't get touched and then dance and celebrate after every first down like they're hot ****.

**** that. Hit em in the mouth. More teams should do this, if not already. Bring back real defense. Intimidation is a big part of defense. Stop wuffisying the league.

mightytitan9
03-02-2012, 02:36 PM
if it went on for a year I don't think it'd be anything to serious, but for the length of time it could end up costing them a decent chunk of money and or draft pick

OSUGiants17
03-02-2012, 02:37 PM
http://i42.tinypic.com/qysrpl.jpg

boknows34
03-02-2012, 02:38 PM
Statement from Tom Benson.

"I have been made aware of the NFL’s findings relative to the “Bounty Rule” and how it relates to our club. I have offered and the NFL has received our full cooperation in their investigation. While the findings may be troubling, we look forward to putting this behind us and winning more championships in the future for our fans."

asdf1223
03-02-2012, 02:40 PM
The NFL should take away the Saints first round pick for this.

fear the elf
03-02-2012, 02:41 PM
I don't think eliminating incentives for causing injuries is wussifying the league. Playing hard, within the confines of the rules I'm OK with; promoting the injuring of players, possibly causing permanent and irreparable damage to their mind or body, I'm not OK with.

Mr. Goosemahn
03-02-2012, 02:42 PM
How likely is it they lose a first or second round pick? That would be very harsh, IMO, but Goodell likes to make examples out of people.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 02:42 PM
The NFL should take away the Saints first round pick for this.

Too late. The Patriots already stole it from them.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 02:44 PM
I don't think eliminating incentives for causing injuries is wussifying the league. Playing hard, within the confines of the rules I'm OK with; promoting the injuring of players, possibly causing permanent and irreparable damage to their mind or body, I'm not OK with.

Players are taught to hit each other where they are injured. If a WR has broken ribs, they're going after those ribs.

It's football. That's what they do. This bounty issue has been in the league for years. The Saints just got caught.

boknows34
03-02-2012, 02:45 PM
@rotoworld

The Saints' 2010-2011 "bounty" program under ex-defensive coordinator Gregg Williams is being characterized by the NFL as a "pay for performance" plan that awarded defenders $1,500 for "knockouts" and $1,000" for offensive players the opposing team was forced to cart off the field.
The Saints would often target a particular player, which reminds of Williams' comments to inflict "remember-me shots" on Brett Favre and Peyton Manning in 2010. Players "regularly" put money into a cash pool and received payments when they successfully injured opponents. New Orleans is already without a 2012 first-round pick, so the NFL could begin taking away additional draft choices this year and a first-rounder in 2013. Expect discipline to be harsh. It will be discussed further at the league's meetings in March.

fear the elf
03-02-2012, 02:48 PM
I'm sorry, but "it's football" isn't really a compelling argument.

Just because something has always been done in a certain way doesn't make it justified.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 02:49 PM
i don't like anything that actively encourages injury. big hits? knocking a guy out for a couple plays? whatever. but causing an actual injury? would you have applauded the chiefs if they'd paid out pollard for hitting brady, for instance? or if the titans had paid out haynesworth for giving gurode stitches? there's a fine line, and from what i can read before hitting filters, this crossed all over it.

I probably didn't express my thoughts properly. I don't advocate injuries, but at the same time, I hate taking away aggression from defenses. Let em play.

As long as you play within the whistles, I have no problem with being physical. I think the rules are geared towards taking that away from defenses, I think Greg's "bounty" rules were more of a way to encourage his defense to continue being aggressive and physical.

I never viewed the Saints defense as being dirty. Just physical. They played within the rules of the game.

fear the elf
03-02-2012, 02:50 PM
i don't like anything that actively encourages injury. big hits? knocking a guy out for a couple plays? whatever. but causing an actual injury? would you have applauded the chiefs if they'd paid out pollard for hitting brady, for instance? or if the titans had paid out haynesworth for giving gurode stitches? there's a fine line, and from what i can read before hitting filters, this crossed all over it.

^ It's nice when someone can articulate your argument for you.

BeerBaron
03-02-2012, 02:52 PM
This sounds rather serious.

My money is on the league "making an example" out of the Saints. As they try and make all of these changes to improve player safety, having a team actively out to hurt opposing players isn't going to fly.

I'm just surprised it wasn't the Lions getting caught.

ATLDirtyBirds
03-02-2012, 02:52 PM
Sean Payton should be forced to resign. And all of their draft picks should be forfeitted. Forever.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 02:53 PM
Intimidation is a big part of defense. You want your defense to be feared. You get into the offense's head. You don't want them going over the middle with no fear of getting lit up, you don't want the qb to throw the ball without any fear of getting hit.

Intimidation is a big part of defense. I don't think the Saints were telling their guys "go after knees, stomp this guy after the whistle, twist this guy's ankle"

I think they were just emphasizing physical play. Don't be afraid to light someone up. You get fined for sneezing on offenses now. So they basically said ok, we'll put away money as a defense for fines, and accept them and sacrifice some money for physical play.

I don't have a problem with that.

BeerBaron
03-02-2012, 02:54 PM
Intimidation is a big part of defense. You want your defense to be feared. You get into the offense's head. You don't want them going over the middle with no fear of getting lit up, you don't want the qb to throw the ball without any fear of getting hit.

Intimidation is a big part of defense. I don't think the Saints were telling their guys "go after knees, stomp this guy after the whistle, twist this guy's ankle"

I think they were just emphasizing physical play. Don't be afraid to light someone up. You get fined for sneezing on offenses now. So they basically said ok, we'll put away money as a defense for fines, and accept them and sacrifice some money for physical play.

I don't have a problem with that.

BBD, what you are talking about and what the Saints were actually doing:

The league’s release says that the program was administered by former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, and that it included payments not only for fumbles and interceptions but also for inflicting injuries that resulted in players being carried off the field ($1,000) and/or knocked out of the game ($1,500).

Sound quite different. "Inflicting injuries" is unacceptable in today's league.

Complex
03-02-2012, 02:56 PM
I don't care good for them.

Da-Phins
03-02-2012, 02:59 PM
Pretty sure most if not all teams have done this before or are still doing this. Sucks for Saints for being the first ones caught.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 02:59 PM
BBD, what you are talking about and what the Saints were actually doing:



Sound quite different. "Inflicting injuries" is unacceptable in today's league.

Yeah but that's a very grey area. He rewarded players for hits. You can light someone up coming up the middle, and it can be perfectly clean and they can leave the game as a result.

Again, it's teaching his guys not to be afraid of hitting guys. I've seen SO many times this year where defenders pulled up on players, because it wasn't worth the 15K fine to them. Players giving up on making plays bc they're afraid of the fine.

Greg rewarded his players for lighting guys up. He didn't make payments for injuries. He rewarded hits. I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Like I said, whenever I saw the Saints play, I never viewed that defense as a dirty defense. They played within the rules.

I think people are overreacting to this.

asdf1223
03-02-2012, 03:00 PM
Too late. The Patriots already stole it from them.

I should have put that in green font.

Also the players are stupid for doing this. Get $1500 from the team and get a fine for 30 grand from the commissioner's office.

Legacy
03-02-2012, 03:01 PM
Yeah but that's a very grey area. He rewarded players for hits. You can light someone up coming up the middle, and it can be perfectly clean and they can leave the game as a result.

Again, it's teaching his guys not to be afraid of hitting guys. I've seen SO many times this year where defenders pulled up on players, because it wasn't worth the 15K fine to them. Players giving up on making plays bc they're afraid of the fine.

Greg rewarded his players for lighting guys up. He didn't make payments for injuries. He rewarded hits. I guess it depends on how you look at it.

Like I said, whenever I saw the Saints play, I never viewed that defense as a dirty defense. They played within the rules.

I think people are overreacting to this.
You need to re-read the article.

The NFL specifically said that Saints defenders were rewarded for knocking opposing players out of the game and/or causing injuries that resulted in opposing players being carted off the field.

CJSchneider
03-02-2012, 03:03 PM
Thanks a lot Williams, you **** sucker.

FlyingElvis
03-02-2012, 03:04 PM
http://i42.tinypic.com/qysrpl.jpg
Damn you, OSU. Damn you.

The NFL should take away the Saints first round pick for this.

1st round pick! Suspend Sean Payton! Ban Greg Williams! Strip them of their title!

http://boards.buffalobills.com/images/smilies/mob.gif



In all seriousness, advocating and paying for other players getting injured sucks. The usual stuff (hitting a guy where you know he's hurt) is fine, but there's definitely a line.

georgiafan
03-02-2012, 03:05 PM
Schefty says the punishement will be worse then what the pats got

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 03:05 PM
You need to re-read the article.

The NFL specifically said that Saints defenders were rewarded for knocking opposing players out of the game and/or causing injuries that resulted in opposing players being carted off the field.

Again. Show me where in this statement does it say that they are rewarded for making illegal hits.

There's nothing wrong with hitting someone clean that results in them leaving the game. That's good physical defense. If you come up the middle, and I light up your rib cage the second you catch the ball and you leave the game as a result, that's not a dirty play. That's a good physical play.

Greg didn't openly reward players for hitting guys late, hitting them in the head, hitting them after the whistle.

He rewarded them for good clean hits that resulted in injuries. There's nothing wrong with that. That's good physical defense.

Jvig43
03-02-2012, 03:07 PM
The NFL should take away the Saints first round pick for this.

Wouldnt be until the 2013 draft because we have their first rounder this year. Unless thats what you were trying to say haha.

NY+Giants=NYG
03-02-2012, 03:07 PM
I think this is over the line however at all levels coaches reward people for big hits. You get praised for ear holing a guy. The money thing and breaking it down for knocking guys out is not good. If you are going to do stuff like that don't get caught.

I am sure offensively you can do the same for cut blocks and knowing the DL out with knee injuries. If you are going to do it don't get caught! But breaking it down by money and specifics is new. Never heard of it that detailed and like that before.

CJSchneider
03-02-2012, 03:07 PM
Again. Show me where in this statement does it say that they are rewarded for making illegal hits.

There's nothing wrong with hitting someone clean that results in them leaving the game. That's good physical defense. If you come up the middle, and I light up your rib cage the second you catch the ball and you leave the game as a result, that's not a dirty play. That's a good physical play.

Greg didn't openly reward players for hitting guys late, hitting them in the head, hitting them after the whistle.

He rewarded them for good clean hits that resulted in injuries. There's nothing wrong with that. That's good physical defense.

Other than the fact that it is against league policy, no, there is nothing wrong with it.

phlysac
03-02-2012, 03:10 PM
Yeah, if "player's safety" is the number one priority, how is this less severe than Tampering?

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 03:10 PM
Other than the fact that it is against league policy, no, there is nothing wrong with it.

How is a clean hit against league policy? So why even have a defense on the field? Put flags on them.

If a defender hits you clean, and you get hurt, that's a good play. If it's a late hit, a blow to the head, a cheap shot to the knees, etc, then no, that's illegal.

But if it's a hit that's within the rules and it results in you leaving the game, that's a good play.

fear the elf
03-02-2012, 03:10 PM
Again. Show me where in this statement does it say that they are rewarded for making illegal hits.

There's nothing wrong with hitting someone clean that results in them leaving the game. That's good physical defense. If you come up the middle, and I light up your rib cage the second you catch the ball and you leave the game as a result, that's not a dirty play. That's a good physical play.

Greg didn't openly reward players for hitting guys late, hitting them in the head, hitting them after the whistle.

He rewarded them for good clean hits that resulted in injuries. There's nothing wrong with that. That's good physical defense.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions. If there are payouts for when opposing players leave the field injured, you are encouraging your players to push the boundaries of legal, if not totally encouraging them to cross that line.

ATLDirtyBirds
03-02-2012, 03:12 PM
I think we all echo your sentiments on playing physical defense BBD, and how pussified the game has become, but there's a major difference from:

Make a good hit, get paid. If someone gets hurt, oh well. And hurt someone-get paid. If causing injury was the main objective, you can be sure as **** the play wasn't always legal.

Jvig43
03-02-2012, 03:13 PM
Again. Show me where in this statement does it say that they are rewarded for making illegal hits.

There's nothing wrong with hitting someone clean that results in them leaving the game. That's good physical defense. If you come up the middle, and I light up your rib cage the second you catch the ball and you leave the game as a result, that's not a dirty play. That's a good physical play.

Greg didn't openly reward players for hitting guys late, hitting them in the head, hitting them after the whistle.

He rewarded them for good clean hits that resulted in injuries. There's nothing wrong with that. That's good physical defense.

Agree with the defense making good hits, but as we all know the league is going to come down hard on this to make it appear like they care about the safety of its players.

broncosfan
03-02-2012, 03:15 PM
A safe prediction: Saints will be disciplined far worse than the Patriots were for Spygate.

Per Adam Schefter.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 03:19 PM
You're making an awful lot of assumptions. If there are payouts for when opposing players leave the field injured, you are encouraging your players to push the boundaries of legal, if not totally encouraging them to cross that line.

I don't have a problem with that. Teams push the limits of rules all the time. Rex Ryan encourages his team to violate illegal contact rules bc he knows refs won't throw the flag every play, so you can get away with it more often than not.

That's pushing the rules.

Teams fake injuries to slow down no huddle offenses (The Giants). That's pushing the rules.

Ryan Clark openly stated this season that he was encouraged for putting a hit on a guy that resulted in a concussion. Where is the outrage over that?

This is done all over the league, and rules are pushed to the limit in every capacity.

I have no problem with a coach pushing his players and giving them incentive to be physical. Especially in today's NFL that's geared towards offense.


Again, if we can come up with evidence where players were rewarded for dishing out illegal hits, then I have a problem with it. But as long as they're being rewarded for taking guys out within the rules, then there's nothing wrong with that. I would encourage it too.

You can't put a leash on defenders. They have to play loose and aggressively, or else they're just out there. Greg is trying to keep his defense aggressive in an era that will fine them up the ass.

How many times have we seen ridiculous flags in the offense's favor this year? You can't have it both ways. If you want physical football, then accept the dirty secrets of the NFL that comes with it. If you want finesse football, then accept the ridiculous flags and rules we see today.

But you can't have it both ways. There has been far worse that goes on in this league than this.

We have had players openly state this year to the media that they will purposely go after an injured player's injury. How is that any different?

Football is a physical game. You can't take away the aggression of it and except it to be the same sport.

It's like asking a boxer to box, "but don't try to hurt the guy"

Come on, what a joke.

Vikings4ever
03-02-2012, 03:21 PM
Completely ignoring the player safety issue:

The NFL has a longstanding rule prohibiting "non-contract bonuses," and they violate both the league constitution and bylaws and the Collective Bargaining Agreement with the players' union.

Borat
03-02-2012, 03:23 PM
You stay classy New Orleans.

Go Cowboys
03-02-2012, 03:23 PM
I agree with BBD:

If you want guys to come back to hitting instead of pulling their hits because they are afraid to get fined then you create some type of competition that they can get rewarded for big hits. So some of those hits are now in the rules as "illegal".

I'm not saying go after a guys head or anything but you have to show some of these defensive players that big hits can injure guys and still be legal hits.

If it comes out that these guys were getting paid for illegal hits then sure by all means penalize them. If they were being taught how to injure someone within the rules of the game well that is as much a part of the game as cut blocking by the offense.

I guarantee a lot more teams do this but the saints got caught, bad news for them but overall shouldn't have been a big deal.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 03:25 PM
I agree with BBD:

If you want guys to come back to hitting instead of pulling their hits because they are afraid to get fined then you create some type of competition that they can get rewarded for big hits. So some of those hits are now in the rules as "illegal".

I'm not saying go after a guys head or anything but you have to show some of these defensive players that big hits can injure guys and still be legal hits.

If it comes out that these guys were getting paid for illegal hits then sure by all means penalize them. If they were being taught how to injure someone within the rules of the game well that is as much a part of the game as cut blocking by the offense.

I guarantee a lot more teams do this but the saints got caught, bad news for them but overall shouldn't have been a big deal.

Thank you. This is basically sums up my opinion.

Taber21
03-02-2012, 03:26 PM
Rewarding a player financially for a "big hit" is perfectly fine, and I am sure everyone would agree. Rewarding players financially for injuring players is not. If you make a clean hit, and the player gets hurt, that is, and certainly always should, be part of the game. Telling players that if they injure the other teams players they will be given $ is something Greg Williams, and the rest of the Saints organization, should be penalized for.

regoob2
03-02-2012, 03:27 PM
This punishment has to set the bar for this so a 2nd this year and 1st next year would make a team not want to do it.

zachsaints52
03-02-2012, 03:29 PM
Our defense hit people?

Complex
03-02-2012, 03:30 PM
A safe prediction: Saints will be disciplined far worse than the Patriots were for Spygate.

Per Adam Schefter.

That is kind of stupid.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 03:32 PM
Anyone here old enough to remember the body bag game?

If that happened in today's league, it would be outrage. It just goes to show you how much the league has changed.

I miss the old physical style of the league. I blame Bill Polian for this nonsense.

SchizophrenicBatman
03-02-2012, 03:34 PM
I told you guys the Saints were dirty

BBD, you're wrong here. There is a line and the Saints defense crossed it. Look at the UFC. Guys get injured doing that, sometimes seriously. But there is a level of respect and sportsmanship. When the bell sounds for the end of a round the guys stop fighting. I think one guy didn't stop wailing on his opponent after the bell once and was thrown out of the company

The thing that matters in the league is respect. Good players, physical/controversial ones included, are respected. Hell, Ray Lewis is probably the most respected player in the league. No one respected the Saints defense

Complex
03-02-2012, 03:37 PM
I told you guys the Saints were dirty

BBD, you're wrong here. There is a line and the Saints defense crossed it. Look at the UFC. Guys get injured doing that, sometimes seriously. But there is a level of respect and sportsmanship. When the bell sounds for the end of a round the guys stop fighting. I think one guy didn't stop wailing on his opponent after the bell once and was thrown out of the company

The thing that matters in the league is respect. Good players, physical/controversial ones included, are respected. Hell, Ray Lewis is probably the most respected player in the league. No one respected the Saints defense

You know this how?

Besides them being sucky(I know not a word) this year.

lowlife
03-02-2012, 03:38 PM
Gregg Williams, new NFL Blitz coverboy amirite?

The objective in boxing is to injure someone, literally. Concussion = win. Hurt so bad they don't leave their corner = win. Face so mauled up that the ref can't let them continue = win.

Football is about advancing a ball through physical force where injury is a consequence not encouraged. Terrible analogy.

IF Williams was literally encouraging his players to injure other players by giving them money (illegally according to the CBA btw) then the hammer will/should be dropped hard as ****. It's one thing to encourage big hits but if it was like "good job, that guy's knee is shredded here's 1500" then **** you Gregg Romanowski.

hoekd0250
03-02-2012, 03:39 PM
Im not entirely sure on how to feel about this. I mean its a little more extreme with paying per injuries which i dont agree with but like how many guys in high school got rewards for just lighting a guy up in the game. I mean we would get presented Crunch candy bars for just blowing up a guy on punt returns to get guys more excited and ready to hit on special teams. Is this really any different and no one had a problem with us doing that ever.

Borat
03-02-2012, 03:40 PM
The Saints should pay Donte Whitner for knocking Pierre Thomas the **** out.

lowlife
03-02-2012, 03:40 PM
But yeah, assumption city until details are reported.

Bulldogs
03-02-2012, 03:40 PM
Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Adam Shefter tweeted that he believes the Saints will be penalized worse than the Pats were for Spygate.

BeerBaron
03-02-2012, 03:42 PM
The reason I think that this is being blown up so much is because of the league's emphasis on safety in recent years. 10 years ago? Meh. Slap on the wrist, maybe fine a guy or two. Move on.

Now, with the league embroiled in law suits due to long term injuries to former players and trying get their efforts to prevent injury taken seriously by the powers that be outside of football, this is MUCH bigger deal.

The league is going to make the Saints pay for this and use them as an example for all other teams.

Complex
03-02-2012, 03:42 PM
If Greg Williams get suspended for like a year or w/e, does that mean my man Chuck Cecil will be the Rams DC?

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 03:42 PM
Trying to hurt your opponent is part of football.

When a power back trucks a defender, you think he wasn't trying to hurt the guy? When a safety lights up a WR coming up the middle, you don't think he was trying to hurt him?

When a DE blindside sacks a qb, you don't think he was trying to hurt him?

It's football guys. This is what they do. It's encouraged in every single locker room. If you take a guy out in a clean manner, it's a good football play.

When a Guard pancakes a LB, that's a good play. You don't think he was trying to take him out? Of course he was!

"Keep your head on a swivel." How many times have we heard that saying? Players like dishing out punishment. On both sides. It's what they do. They're football players.

You think when the Steelers play the Ravens, that they're not trying to rip each other's heads off?

If we don't want this to happen, then just put flags on them and get it over with. We're headed towards that path anyway.

regoob2
03-02-2012, 03:44 PM
Trying to hurt your opponent is part of football.

When a power back trucks a defender, you think he wasn't trying to hurt the guy? When a safety lights up a WR coming up the middle, you don't think he was trying to hurt him?

When a DE blindside sacks a qb, you don't think he was trying to hurt him?

It's football guys. This is what they do. It's encouraged in every single locker room. If you take a guy out in a clean manner, it's a good football play.

When a Guard pancakes a LB, that's a good play. You don't think he was trying to take him out? Of course he was!

"Keep your head on a swivel." How many times have we heard that saying? Players like dishing out punishment. On both sides. It's what they do. They're football players.

You think when the Steelers play the Ravens, that they're not trying to rip each other's heads off?

If we don't want this to happen, then just put flags on them and get it over with. We're headed towards that path anyway.
This is about intent to injure. They're paying you to injure people. What was the payout for paralyzing someone?

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 03:49 PM
This is about intent to injure. They're paying you to injure people. What was the payout for paralyzing someone?

Wrong. We're taking one statement and turning it into the whole story. They got paid for fumbles, interceptions, as well as plays that resulted in the player leaving the field. Those are all good football plays as long as they are within the rules.

He rewarded his defense for making good football plays. Taking a player out is part of that equation. It's a part of defense.

If a defender takes out the starting qb on the first play with a good clean hit, you better believe he's getting rewarded for it. Not just in the Saints locker room. In EVERY locker room.

It's not like they had an ACL money jar. They were rewarded for making good football plays and dishing out a physical hit was part of that.

Ness
03-02-2012, 03:49 PM
Again. Show me where in this statement does it say that they are rewarded for making illegal hits.

There's nothing wrong with hitting someone clean that results in them leaving the game. That's good physical defense. If you come up the middle, and I light up your rib cage the second you catch the ball and you leave the game as a result, that's not a dirty play. That's a good physical play.

Greg didn't openly reward players for hitting guys late, hitting them in the head, hitting them after the whistle.

He rewarded them for good clean hits that resulted in injuries. There's nothing wrong with that. That's good physical defense.
I think there is something wrong with getting extra compensation to purposely injure someone. Those guys guys weren't getting the big bucks unless the opposing player was carted off the field in some cases. That makes the stakes higher and makes it a priority to not only stop an offensive player, but cause serious injury so the defender will get paid.

regoob2
03-02-2012, 03:50 PM
Wrong. We're taking one statement and turning it into the whole story. They got paid for fumbles, interceptions, as well as plays that resulted in the player leaving the field. Those are all good football plays as long as they are within the rules.

He rewarded his defense for making good football plays. Taking a player out is part of that equation. It's a part of defense.

If a defender takes out the starting qb on the first play with a good clean hit, you better believe he's getting rewarded for it. Not just in the Saints locker room. In EVERY locker room.

It's not like they had an ACL money jar. They were rewarded for making good football plays and dishing out a physical hit was part of that.
Im not wrong. What's a cart off?

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 03:53 PM
Do we have confirmation that they were getting paid more for plays that resulted in players getting carted off the field?

If there was a payment method that encouraged a heavier payment for plays that resulted in worse injuries, then that crosses the line.

But I was under the assumption that they merely got rewarded for making a positive play, and a positive play included plays that resulted in players getting hurt.

regoob2
03-02-2012, 03:56 PM
Do we have confirmation that they were getting paid more for plays that resulted in players getting carted off the field?

If there was a payment method that encouraged a heavier payment for plays that resulted in worse injuries, then that crosses the line.

But I was under the assumption that they merely got rewarded for making a positive play, and a positive play included plays that resulted in players getting hurt.
Turn on ESPN. No one would care if this was about paying guys for ints or fumbles.

Borat
03-02-2012, 03:57 PM
Do we have confirmation that they were getting paid more for plays that resulted in players getting carted off the field?

If there was a payment method that encouraged a heavier payment for plays that resulted in worse injuries, then that crosses the line.

But I was under the assumption that they merely got rewarded for making a positive play, and a positive play included plays that resulted in players getting hurt.

You've got to be kidding me. Do you not know what is being discussed?

Ness
03-02-2012, 03:58 PM
Do we have confirmation that they were getting paid more for plays that resulted in players getting carted off the field?

If there was a payment method that encouraged a heavier payment for plays that resulted in worse injuries, then that crosses the line.

But I was under the assumption that they merely got rewarded for making a positive play, and a positive play included plays that resulted in players getting hurt.

The program runs in violation of league rules, and the investigation showed that Saints players received $1,500 for a “knockout” hit and $1,000 for a “cart-off” hit with payouts doubling or tripling during the team's three playoff appearances. The program also entailed payments for interceptions and fumble recoveries, which also violates league rules against non-contract bonuses. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell will determine the appropriate discipline based on the investigation, the league said in a statement.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82757bcd/article/nfl-says-saints-created-bounty-program-from-20092011?module=HP11_breaking_news

Bottom line is that you shouldn't be getting any extra kind of compensation for any of it. I can already envision a scenario where a pile of defenders is on an offensive player and one defender in the pile is trying to break the guy's ankle just so he can get an extra $1,000.

Complex
03-02-2012, 03:58 PM
According to ESPN's Adam Schefter, the NFL has determined that MLB Jonathan Vilma was one of the primary culprits in the Saints' "pay for performance" bounty program that will result in NFL discipline.
"In the week of the NFC Championship Game," Schefter said on NFL Live Friday, "Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma put $10,000 in cash on a table and said 'this goes to the guy that knocks out Brett Favre.'" Those weren't Vilma's exact words, but they were similar, according to Schefter, and he's sure to be atop the league's target list for impending discipline.

Sounds like a scene from a movie

Ness
03-02-2012, 04:03 PM
The funny thing is that their defense still isn't that great. Try getting good players so this thing doesn't have to happen.

Taber21
03-02-2012, 04:05 PM
Makes you wonder if guys were more willing to try and injure a player for the $ then actually uphold their responsibilities within the defense.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 04:06 PM
You've got to be kidding me. Do you not know what is being discussed?

What is being reported is not the entire story. It's typical media, they're taking 1 part of what actually happened, and they are emphasizing that one point.

Yes, they got paid for dishing out hits that resulted in injuries. But they weren't only paid for that. They were paid for other positive plays as well.

The investigation by the league's security department determined that an improper "pay for performance" program included "bounty" payments to players for inflicting injuries on opposing players that would result in them being removed from a game.

Key word: INCLUDING. It wasn't like they were ONLY getting paid to hurt people. It was part of a pay for performance program. It was just one aspect of the program. But way to take a headline and go zomg over it.

In some cases, the amounts pledged were both significant and directed against a specific opposing player, according to the league's investigation.

Again, broad statement. Some cases. What does that even mean? You can't just assume ****. Of course the money will be more if the play was more significant and geared towards a more significant player. No ****. If you take out Brady, that's a lot more rewarding than taking out Chad Ocho Cinco. NO WHERE does it state that they were being rewarded for making illegal hits Injuring a guy is not a problem, as long as it's clean.

The investigation showed that the total amount of funds in the pool may have reached $50,000 or more at its height during the 2009 playoffs. The program paid players $1,500 for a "knockout" and $1,000 for a "cart-off," with payouts doubling or tripling during the playoffs.

This shows that they actually got rewarded MORE for NOT getting the guy carted off. If you make a great play that's clean that results in injury, yeah you will get paid, but the EXTENT of the injury did NOT result in a higher payment.


So yeah, read clearly next time.

A Perfect Score
03-02-2012, 04:09 PM
Wow, I go to lunch and this is what I miss. Obviously if the Saints were intentionally trying to injure players, they should and will be penalized. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing, however, to offer incentive for big hits, so long as those hits aren't done with the specific intention of injuring people. As someone who played football are a somewhat decent level (Canada, damn) for a long time, I can tell you fairly confidently that there's a really big (and cognizant) difference between aiming to intimidate and aiming to injure. Football is a physical game and there's an injury risk every time you step on the field, but there's no reason to step beyond that and try and make it intentional. That kind of behaviour underscores the physical nature of the game. Im not watching to see people hurt, I dunno about you guys.

Brodeur
03-02-2012, 04:09 PM
I'm just surprised it wasn't the Lions getting caught.

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss73/Ynale/EyeRoll.gif

You see, this would constitute an actual dirty team.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 04:13 PM
Again, I have no problem with defenders trying to injure players. As long as it's clean.

NO WHERE in this investigation is there ANY evidence that they were encouraged to injure players ILLEGALLY.

They were not encouraged to hit late, they were not encouraged to hit outside the strike zone, they were simply encouraged to hit em hard, and if it resulted in an injury, then good job.

Newsflash: EVERY NFL DEFENSE DOES THIS. Every single one of them. They might not have a payment plan in place for it, but it's encouraged in every locker room.

This is getting blown way out of proportion and people are taking half truths and twisting it into something it's not.

Vilma giving a teammate 10gs for dishing out a hit that takes out Favre does not translate to "I'll give you 10 grand for cheap shotting him"

But that's what's being interpreted, and it's not true.

falloutboy14
03-02-2012, 04:13 PM
Schefter also said the NFL warned the Saint's GM to end the program earlier in the year and they didn't end/change anything.

Taber21
03-02-2012, 04:14 PM
If a player gets a bonus for each sack he gets, for example, and the result of a sack he gets is a QB dislocates his shoulder and misses significant amount of time, that player would evidently get paid for a hit that injured another player. There should be no problem with that, and if that is the sort of arrangement NO had, then it should not be a big deal. The problem seems to be they got rewarded just for injuring a player, not for specific plays made on the field, just injuries inflicted, which is inexcusable.

Ness
03-02-2012, 04:16 PM
What is being reported is not the entire story. It's typical media, they're taking 1 part of what actually happened, and they are emphasizing that one point.

Yes, they got paid for dishing out hits that resulted in injuries. But they weren't only paid for that. They were paid for other positive plays as well.

The investigation by the league's security department determined that an improper "pay for performance" program included "bounty" payments to players for inflicting injuries on opposing players that would result in them being removed from a game.

Key word: INCLUDING. It wasn't like they were ONLY getting paid to hurt people. It was part of a pay for performance program. It was just one aspect of the program. But way to take a headline and go zomg over it.

In some cases, the amounts pledged were both significant and directed against a specific opposing player, according to the league's investigation.

Again, broad statement. Some cases. What does that even mean? You can't just assume ****. Of course the money will be more if the play was more significant and geared towards a more significant player. No ****. If you take out Brady, that's a lot more rewarding than taking out Chad Ocho Cinco. NO WHERE does it state that they were being rewarded for making illegal hits Injuring a guy is not a problem, as long as it's clean.

The investigation showed that the total amount of funds in the pool may have reached $50,000 or more at its height during the 2009 playoffs. The program paid players $1,500 for a "knockout" and $1,000 for a "cart-off," with payouts doubling or tripling during the playoffs.

This shows that they actually got rewarded MORE for NOT getting the guy carted off. If you make a great play that's clean that results in injury, yeah you will get paid, but the EXTENT of the injury did NOT result in a higher payment.


So yeah, read clearly next time.

BBD, I think you are missing the big picture, and the more important concern. The intent to injure for extra compensation looks bad, but even beyond that, it was a violation of league rules for rewarding non-contract bonuses/bribes to NFL players for making plays on defense that were deemed as "rewards". Other teams might do this very thing, but New Orleans got caught. So they should pay the price.

You are right we don't know the entire context of the situation. That being said, it could also have been a lot worse than what is even being reported.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 04:20 PM
If a player gets a bonus for each sack he gets, for example, and the result of a sack he gets is a QB dislocates his shoulder and misses significant amount of time, that player would evidently get paid for a hit that injured another player. There should be no problem with that, and if that is the sort of arrangement NO had, then it should not be a big deal. The problem seems to be they got rewarded just for injuring a player, not for specific plays made on the field, just injuries inflicted, which is inexcusable.

Again, this was NOT the case. They got rewarded for positive plays. They didn't just get paid for plays that resulted in injuries.

And another assumption that is being thrown out there is that they got paid more if the injury was more significant.

Again, NOT TRUE. They actually got paid LESS for a cart off.

So again, we're making assumptions and making accusations against them that are simply not true.

Of course the media is going to emphasize certain points over the others, and we're going to overreact to it, but the direct statements issued by the NFL clearly state that this was part of a pay for performance plan, and in their own statement they clearly show that there wasn't a higher reward for the extent of the injury.

We need to stop overreacting and pay attention to the issue in it's entirety before we make false accusations against the team.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 04:24 PM
BBD, I think you are missing the big picture, and the more important concern. The intent to injure for extra compensation looks bad, but even beyond that, it was a violation of league rules for rewarding non-contract bonuses/bribes to NFL players for making plays on defense that were deemed as "rewards". Other teams might do this very thing, but New Orleans got caught. So they should pay the price.

You are right we don't know the entire context of the situation. That being said, it could also have been a lot worse than what is even being reported.

This is a big deal and will result in strict discipline for 2 reasons:

1. It goes against the player safety politics that the league is enforcing in an attempt to justify an 18 game season in the future, as well as protect themselves against lawsuits by ex players.

2. It is in direct violation of the league rules, which states you can't pay players off the table for anything outside of the realms of their contracts.


That's why the punishment will be significant. The morality of this issue is being way overblown however. We act like this is some kind of inhumane occurrence that no one else would do. And that's so inaccurate it's not even funny. This is something that goes on in every locker room, and is encouraged in every locker room.

This is not some immoral violation of the Saints. It's a legal violation, but not an immoral one. Every team does it. Every team is aware of it. It's part of football culture.

Complex
03-02-2012, 04:24 PM
Schefter also said the NFL warned the Saint's GM to end the program earlier in the year and they didn't end/change anything.

So Roger Goodell knew about it about and didn't stop it?

asdf1223
03-02-2012, 04:28 PM
So Roger Goodell knew about it about and didn't stop it?

It wasn't the NFL. It was the Saints owner Tom Benson. The NFL had been on the case from 2010 but had no evidence. But someone spilled the beans this year apparently.

asdf1223
03-02-2012, 04:30 PM
Greg Williams has basically came out and said its my fault . The Jets special teams coach got canned for tripping a player. I wonder if the league puts the ban hammer on him.

Taber21
03-02-2012, 04:32 PM
Again, NOT TRUE. They actually got paid LESS for a cart off.

I read this, but my problem with this is why are they getting paid for other players getting carted off at all? So if a guy gets hit and breaks his neck, never walks again, that is a good thing, and is rewarded by the Saints with $?

descendency
03-02-2012, 04:33 PM
Sounds great. Let's blame the guy that's gone now so we don't get in trouble. . .

Maybe that's why Brees wants more money... so he can pay defense to actually play.

descendency
03-02-2012, 04:33 PM
The NFL should take away the Saints first round pick for this.

I was going to say this, but then I realized that it probably wouldn't be funny :(

Crazy_Chris
03-02-2012, 04:33 PM
The investigation showed that the total amount of funds in the pool may have reached $50,000 or more at its height during the 2009 playoffs. The program paid players $1,500 for a "knockout" and $1,000 for a "cart-off," with payouts doubling or tripling during the playoffs.

This shows that they actually got rewarded MORE for NOT getting the guy carted off. If you make a great play that's clean that results in injury, yeah you will get paid, but the EXTENT of the injury did NOT result in a higher payment.

Again, NOT TRUE. They actually got paid LESS for a cart off.

So again, we're making assumptions and making accusations against them that are simply not true.


I could be wrong but I have yet to read anyone state that the bonuses were mutually exclusive. At the moment you're making the assumption that the 1,000 for the cart off isn't an added bonus to the 1,500 knockout.

TACKLE
03-02-2012, 04:42 PM
Put me down on team BBD. This is going to get made into a way bigger deal than it actually is.

It goes back to the fundamental flaw of saying 'player safety is our top priority' when the nature of this sport has elements of violence and danger.

Bulldogs
03-02-2012, 04:45 PM
http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/36ey8a/

VAfy-ya
03-02-2012, 04:46 PM
Wow, I go to lunch and this is what I miss. Obviously if the Saints were intentionally trying to injure players, they should and will be penalized. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing, however, to offer incentive for big hits, so long as those hits aren't done with the specific intention of injuring people. As someone who played football are a somewhat decent level (Canada, damn) for a long time, I can tell you fairly confidently that there's a really big (and cognizant) difference between aiming to intimidate and aiming to injure. Football is a physical game and there's an injury risk every time you step on the field, but there's no reason to step beyond that and try and make it intentional. That kind of behaviour underscores the physical nature of the game. Im not watching to see people hurt, I dunno about you guys.

This. You can play physical and imtimidate, without injuring people. There are "woo" hits every Sunday that guys bounce back up off the turf from because their clean, hard fundemental hits. But having a bingo sheet for "cart offs" and "knock-out" hits just looks like your trying to do more than just play a good, physical game. That word "intent" carries a lot burden when you start doing things of that nature. If your keeping a score card, one might think that the intent behind those hits were to injury and thus, get paid......and that's a problem.

Bulldogs
03-02-2012, 04:52 PM
This article carries alot more weight now.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7370497/adrian-peterson-minnesota-vikings-thinks-new-olreans-saints-players-tried-injure-him

Complex
03-02-2012, 04:52 PM
Put me down on team BBD. This is going to get made into a way bigger deal than it actually is.

It goes back to the fundamental flaw of saying 'player safety is our top priority' when the nature of this sport has elements of violence and danger.

This, its not like the saints players were going after players knees.When Kurt Warner got hurt it was a clean hit.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 04:53 PM
I read this, but my problem with this is why are they getting paid for other players getting carted off at all? So if a guy gets hit and breaks his neck, never walks again, that is a good thing, and is rewarded by the Saints with $?

We don't know specifics of the payment system yet. We may never know exactly how it worked.

It could be that Player A hit Player B cleanly and resulted in Player B getting carted off, and Player A was rewarded for making the hit. The hit resulted in an injury, but was not necessarily the sole reason why payment was made.

Or it could be a scenario where Player A purposely injured Player B after the whistle that resulted in a cart off, and was injured for that specific reason of getting him carted off the field. In this situation, what they did was clearly wrong.

Or it could be a scenario in the middle.

The truth is, we DON'T KNOW, and from the statements issued by the NFL, it sounds like the first scenario stated where the payments were part of a performance plan was the most likely scenario. That is what their statements are implying.

And until I'm provided with more evidence to show that the accusations getting thrown around by the media and in this thread are true, I'm going to assume that the first scenario is what happened because thats basically what the NFL is stating at this time.
I could be wrong but I have yet to read anyone state that the bonuses were mutually exclusive. At the moment you're making the assumption that the 1,000 for the cart off isn't an added bonus to the 1,500 knockout.

This is true as well. Again, we don't know. But I think it's unfair to assume that right now. Based off of what we know right here right now, I don't see anything wrong with what they did.

Steady Lurkin
03-02-2012, 05:03 PM
BOUNTYGATE

WATERBOUNTY

Am I doing this right?

diabsoule
03-02-2012, 05:05 PM
As punishment I'm expecting heavy fines, suspensions for players they have evidence against (Vilma), forfeiting of draft picks, the possible resignation of Loomis as the GM, and Gregg Williams having the hammer come down on him.

The Saints will be used as an example by Goodell and it's going to hurt.

Rabscuttle
03-02-2012, 05:05 PM
So does Sean Payton's knee injury warrant a "haha"?

Legacy
03-02-2012, 05:06 PM
As punishment I'm expecting heavy fines, suspensions for players they have evidence against (Vilma), forfeiting of draft picks, the possible resignation of Loomis as the GM, and Gregg Williams having the hammer come down on him.

The Saints will be used as an example by Goodell and it's going to hurt.
I think Loomis will be fired before he has a chance to resign, especially if the report about him lying to Benson's face about shutting down the bounty pool is true.

yodabear
03-02-2012, 05:06 PM
Bring this to St. Louis!!!!!!!!! Just do a better job of hiding it.

HeavyLeggedWaistBender
03-02-2012, 05:08 PM
BBD be trollin.

I love defense. Defense is turnovers, tackles, and sacks. Nothing to do with ambulances. This was a hit squad. As a long time Bear fan, and even longer human being, I hate Brett Favre and I loved watching him take all those hits. I reeaallly did. But that's when I thought they were genuine, hard nosed, playoff hits. To think there was an ulterior motive as twisted as money to hurt him is pretty ****** up.

Legacy
03-02-2012, 05:20 PM
This is from LaCanfora's twitter page, so take it with a grain of salt...

Memo sent to NFL clubs notes an incident with Saints LB Jon Vilma putting up $10K cash for a pre-playoff bounty and also notes that Sean Payton's agent, Mike Ornstein, put up money for a bounty on two occasions. Memo says the actions of Payton and GM Mickey Loomis serves as "conduct detrimental" to the game. Hard not to think steep punishment is coming

Here's one from the Washington Post:
#Redskins had bounty system for hits on opponents similar to one revealed by an #NFL investigation of the #Saints. wapo.st/wtdbv7
Gregg Williams is in for a world of hurt if this is true.

Complex
03-02-2012, 05:24 PM
Washington Post reports Redskins had a bounty system for big hits on opponents under their former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams

Adam Schefter twitter

YoJoeBucsFan
03-02-2012, 05:26 PM
Drop the hammer on the 'Aints.

H.O.O.D
03-02-2012, 05:31 PM
The Rams might be looking for another DC.

Taber21
03-02-2012, 05:31 PM
I think what may end up happening, whether it is right or wrong, is legal action being brought up by players who have been injured playing against Greg Williams coached teams. Not thinking of certain examples/players and not saying I agree with it, but it would not surprise me at all if this happens.

Splat
03-02-2012, 05:34 PM
Haven't read all of the thread sorry if all ready posted.

http://rotoworld.com/

"I think it's gonna be a penalty that's gonna exceed SpyGate," Clayton said on SportsCenter. "I think you're probably gonna see the organization fined significantly, maybe close to $1 million. I think you're gonna see multiple draft choices taken away. ... Maybe a first-round pick next year and some other pick this year."

Bert Macklin
03-02-2012, 05:40 PM
http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/33769_o.gif

yodabear
03-02-2012, 06:02 PM
The Rams might be looking for another DC.

Nah it will be a heavy fine at the most. I can almost guarantee almost all the teams in the NFL have **** like this going on...the Saints just got caught.

Complex
03-02-2012, 06:04 PM
Nah it will be a heavy fine at the most. I can almost guarantee almost all the teams in the NFL have **** like this going on...the Saints just got caught.

He did it with the redskins, I doubt he coaches this season. Chuck Cecil is on your staff. He has DC experience.

yodabear
03-02-2012, 06:05 PM
He did it with the redskins, I doubt he coaches this season. Chuck Cecil is on your staff. He has DC experience.

Oh I read Shefter's tweet wrong, I thought it said that the Redskins did it this year. But yeah if its a repeat violater, well, blah.

Rabscuttle
03-02-2012, 06:07 PM
Oh I read Shefter's tweet wrong, I thought it said that the Redskins did it this year. But yeah if its a repeat violater, well, blah.

Count your blessings, even if they are small ones.

diabsoule
03-02-2012, 06:15 PM
yeah, Vilma will be getting suspended for at least 4 games, probably half the season. Consider him cut by the Saints.

Shane P. Hallam
03-02-2012, 06:23 PM
My guess on punishment is:
Hefty fine
2013 first rounder
Williams gets a 6 game suspension (probably more with the WAS stuff)


At the very least this violates the salary cap system.

yodabear
03-02-2012, 06:24 PM
I thought it was weird, even tho his contract was up and is good friends with Fisher, that he just right away came from one of the best teams in the NFC to the worst. Maybe he knew **** was about to hit the fan and he tried to Pete Carroll himself out of punishment.

Ngatachance92
03-02-2012, 06:25 PM
Maybe he should have ran off to the NCAA.

yodabear
03-02-2012, 06:28 PM
Maybe he should have ran off to the NCAA.

Well some would argue the Rams are an NCAA team....too mean on my own????

Giantsfan1080
03-02-2012, 06:44 PM
Poor Spags. :(

H.O.O.D
03-02-2012, 06:50 PM
My guess on punishment is:
Hefty fine
2013 first rounder
Williams gets a 6 game suspension (probably more with the WAS stuff)


At the very least this violates the salary cap system.

Considering he did in Washington as well, I could see Williams being suspended for the year.

I wonder if Washington will be penalized as well?

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 07:15 PM
Poor Spags. :(



Hopefully he leaves NO after this year and replaces Fewell when he becomes a HC

VernonLawson89
03-02-2012, 07:16 PM
http://i.imgur.com/0mp0R.jpg

Ness
03-02-2012, 08:09 PM
http://i.imgur.com/0mp0R.jpg

This made my day. Thanks.

armageddon
03-02-2012, 08:19 PM
They shouldn't suspend Williams because it's not the Rams fault. Fine him, don't suspend him.

OzTitan
03-02-2012, 08:33 PM
At the very least this violates the salary cap system.

I'm thinking this might be the real issue here. The motivation of the bonuses is motivation for the league to come down harder, but it's likely a lot of teams tell their defenders to hit hard enough to knock out players from the game. In fact I've heard this confirmed with regularity over the years. Players have said they don't target knees or whatever, but when they can hit hard, they go in hoping to knock that guy out of the game within the rules. This to me is simply NFL football.

Paying bonuses for particular achievements of this nature though would possibly suggest a payment system not accounted for officially. Such activity would bring the wrath of Goodell down on a franchise.

Perhaps there is language in the NFL allowing for reasonably small bonuses though. I know teams can fine at will.

bored of education
03-02-2012, 08:44 PM
*Bill Belichick caught them on tape joke*

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 09:05 PM
Plenty of guys have already come out and said that this has been going on in most locker rooms for a long time.

This is only news to us fans. The Saints are in trouble because they got caught, that's all.

This was just bad timing, bc the league is going to come down hard on them bc this hurts their "agenda"

Complex
03-02-2012, 09:09 PM
Plenty of guys have already come out and said that this has been going on in most locker rooms for a long time.

This is only news to us fans. The Saints are in trouble because they got caught, that's all.

This was just bad timing, bc the league is going to come down hard on them bc this hurts their "agenda"

It shouldn't be news to use fans. If they watched the 30 for 30 Miami Hurricane documentary they would know it's going on. Also Shawn Merriman said he had a bounty on him awhile that's how he got hurt supposedly. Buddy Ryan did it with the bears and eagles.

bored of education
03-02-2012, 09:12 PM
Take away this year's franchise tag and watch the commotion. I saw this idea on Twitter.

Scotty D
03-02-2012, 09:13 PM
Take away this year's franchise tag and watch the commotion. I saw this idea on Twitter.

Please let this happen.

Nalej
03-02-2012, 09:16 PM
Wow. Amazing. Sucks for NO but I'd love to see it happen.

bigbluedefense
03-02-2012, 09:17 PM
It shouldn't be news to use fans. If they watched the 30 for 30 Miami Hurricane documentary they would know it's going on. Also Shawn Merriman said he had a bounty on him awhile that's how he got hurt supposedly. Buddy Ryan did it with the bears and eagles.

*casual fans*

Don't forget, the majority of the country is stupid.

Complex
03-02-2012, 09:21 PM
Tony Dungy of NBC’s Football Night in America tells PFT that he believes the Titans had put a bounty on Manning.

“I know they had them in Tennessee,” Dungy said via text.

I wonder if Jeffery Fisher will get in trouble. He had to know.

bored of education
03-02-2012, 09:35 PM
I wonder what Stevie Johnson got paid by Chan Gailey for taking out Eric Berry after Gailey got fired by Todd Haley.

Brent
03-02-2012, 09:40 PM
I wonder what Stevie Johnson got paid by Chan Gailey for taking out Eric Berry after Gailey got fired by Todd Haley.
we'll find out when he signs that new contract

Rabscuttle
03-02-2012, 10:00 PM
Fisher and Williams look like the work of Millionaire Matchmaker.

J-Mike88
03-02-2012, 10:23 PM
I don't think eliminating incentives for causing injuries is wussifying the league. Playing hard, within the confines of the rules I'm OK with; promoting the injuring of players, possibly causing permanent and irreparable damage to their mind or body, I'm not OK with.
A true voice of reason, and common sense.

Scotty D
03-02-2012, 10:27 PM
Yeah, this is just too far over the line for me to accept. I remember there was talk of the Packers setting a bounty for keeping Adrian Peterson under a 100 yards. It might have been the Packers, I can't remember. That is much more acceptable to me though. This situation was just way out of hand and I don't have any problem with the league cracking down hard on it.

Vikes99ej
03-02-2012, 10:34 PM
I wish the worst on the Saints and that entire organization. Yes, I am still butthurt over the NFCCG, and this only justifies it.

bucfan12
03-02-2012, 10:38 PM
The Saints were once and used to always be a respectable franchise until now. Paying players incentives to injure and hurt other players?

As a Buc fan, I still had respect and wished the Saints well whenever Tampa was not playing them or out of contention. However, now that I read this I'm not surprised. There were a lot of times I questioned the style of play of certain players, especially Roman Harper, and Jon Vilma. They seemed very dirty with there play.

I wish the worst for this Franchise and hope Goodell comes hard on them. Take away there 2nd rounder this year and 1st rounder in 2013, as a minimum punishment. Another one I'd like to see is take away there Franchise Tag option this year, but that's just being greedy as a Buc fan to see them fall : )

OzTitan
03-02-2012, 10:43 PM
The Saints may have been more respectable but they were also the Aints. The bounty driven Saints have a ring. Welcome to the NFL.

bucfan12
03-02-2012, 10:45 PM
The Saints may have been more respectable but they were also the Aints. The bounty driven Saints have a ring. Welcome to the NFL.

There's also a term called respect and integrity. Playing dirty like the Aints isn't something to be proud of, especially if you're out to cause harm to other players. That's down right scummy and proves they need to take players out of the ball game by injury to win ball games.

yodabear
03-02-2012, 10:45 PM
Take away this year's franchise tag and watch the commotion. I saw this idea on Twitter.

That is freeking brilliant!!!!

bucfan12
03-02-2012, 10:47 PM
That is freeking brilliant!!!!

Haha it would be. They're struggling to sign Brees now. Can't imagine what they'd do if they didn't have a 2nd option. It's almost guranteed Nicks and Colston flee.

Scotty D
03-02-2012, 10:47 PM
Haha it would be. They're struggling to sign Brees now. Can't imagine what they'd do if they didn't have a 2nd option. It's almost guranteed Nicks and Colston flee.

Bucs should try to sign Colston. That would be huge.

bucfan12
03-02-2012, 10:49 PM
Bucs should try to sign Colston. That would be huge.

Whyn ot both Nicks and Colston? They got the money.

Saints Dome Patrol
03-02-2012, 10:49 PM
The Saints were once and used to always be a respectable franchise until now. Paying players incentives to injure and hurt other players?

As a Buc fan, I still had respect and wished the Saints well whenever Tampa was not playing them or out of contention. However, now that I read this I'm not surprised. There were a lot of times I questioned the style of play of certain players, especially Roman Harper, and Jon Vilma. They seemed very dirty with there play.

I wish the worst for this Franchise and hope Goodell comes hard on them. Take away there 2nd rounder this year and 1st rounder in 2013, as a minimum punishment. Another one I'd like to see is take away there Franchise Tag option this year, but that's just being greedy as a Buc fan to see them fall : )

As a Saints fan, it seems to me that the NFL is going to make an example of New Orleans. This is not the first, nor will it be the last time that something like this has/will happen.

Someone earlier brought up the "Body Bag" game, another one I like to bring up are the 1989's "Bounty Bowls" between the Eagles and the Cowboys. I mean, the whole bounty system has been going on probably since the beginning of the NFL.

Sadly, the Saints were the ones with their hands caught in the cookie jar. And like someone posted earlier, with the league wanting to crack down on teams due to safety concerns, New Orleans will have the book thrown at them.

The fact that Williams admitted his guilt after he joined the Rams' staff, makes you wonder if, he indeed knew the "stuff" was going to hit the fan and tried to get the hell out of Dodge. That said, he deserves to get hit with some penalty as well, but I don't know if that will happen.

At the minimum, the Saints are going to have to forfeit their second rounder this year, pay a huge fine and could possibly lose next year's first rounder and have suspensions for Sean Payton and possibly cost Payton or general manager Mickey Loomis their jobs.

(P.S. -- I find it laughable if you thought of the Saints as a "respectable franchise"... I guess you mean since 2009...)

J-Mike88
03-02-2012, 10:53 PM
Wow, I go to lunch and this is what I miss. Obviously if the Saints were intentionally trying to injure players, they should and will be penalized.
No, BBD says that's just part of football, and today's NFL offensive players are soft and p*ssies.

How much greater would the NFL be if the top 10 QBs were knocked out for the year because bounties were made legal and encouraged.
Toughen these p*ssies of today up on offense.
Encourage more hits to the knees like put on Adrian Peterson and Tom Brady.
Let's have real men out there who's ACLs are stronger.

And WRs? None of em have been paralyzed recently because the NFL won't allow hard hits on them. WRs today are soft, p*ssies.

ZhET1IC0gMo
j9RfJwSkMU8
3aAXTOs9pL8&feature=related
UgUlp2X6Kc4&feature=related
91BqQSOxtC8&feature=related
X8BEdeAwnxk&feature=related

T7aVe_Ge09U
p7pkWFZZDhM
r_wPOfTGegA
nWRubjRQP60
^ This is a knee-hunter, as Falcons nation and FB found out last year when he was defenseless on a screen catch, turned around, and as he did, Delmas aimed for and took out his knee.
Found it:
uCBN5Fr-Ums

bucfan12
03-02-2012, 10:57 PM
As a Saints fan, it seems to me that the NFL is going to make an example of New Orleans. This is not the first, nor will it be the last time that something like this has/will happen.

Someone earlier brought up the "Body Bag" game, another one I like to bring up are the 1989's "Bounty Bowls" between the Eagles and the Cowboys. I mean, the whole bounty system has been going on probably since the beginning of the NFL.

Sadly, the Saints were the ones with their hands caught in the cookie jar. And like someone posted earlier, with the league wanting to crack down on teams due to safety concerns, New Orleans will have the book thrown at them.

The fact that Williams admitted his guilt after he joined the Rams' staff, makes you wonder if, he indeed knew the "stuff" was going to hit the fan and tried to get the hell out of Dodge. That said, he deserves to get hit with some penalty as well, but I don't know if that will happen.

At the minimum, the Saints are going to have to forfeit their second rounder this year, pay a huge fine and could possibly lose next year's first rounder and have suspensions for Sean Payton and possibly cost Payton or general manager Mickey Loomis their jobs.

(P.S. -- I find it laughable if you thought of the Saints as a "respectable franchise"... I guess you mean since 2009...)

Actually, since 2006, when Payton took over. Guess I was wrong pretty much.

Complex
03-02-2012, 11:09 PM
No, BBD says that's just part of football, and today's NFL offensive players are soft and p*ssies.

How much greater would the NFL be if the top 10 QBs were knocked out for the year because bounties were made legal and encouraged.
Toughen these p*ssies of today up on offense.
Encourage more hits to the knees like put on Adrian Peterson and Tom Brady.
Let's have real men out there who's ACLs are stronger.

And WRs? None of em have been paralyzed recently because the NFL won't allow hard hits on them. WRs today are soft, p*ssies.

^ This is a knee-hunter, as Falcons nation and FB found out last year when he was defenseless on a screen catch, turned around, and as he did, Delmas aimed for and took out his knee.
Found it:
uCBN5Fr-Ums

How many people did the saints take out with "dirty illegal" hits? How many WR's have been paralyzed? all can think of is one.

BandwagonPunditry
03-02-2012, 11:27 PM
Plenty of guys have already come out and said that this has been going on in most locker rooms for a long time.

This is only news to us fans. The Saints are in trouble because they got caught, that's all.

This was just bad timing, bc the league is going to come down hard on them bc this hurts their "agenda"

I think we need to get a few things straight here. That Saints are being punished because they broke the rules. "Everybody does it" is up there with "we were just following orders" on the list of excuses that don't cut it. You say they weren't only being paid to injure players, they were paid for others things. Well, that's a little like saying "sure your honour, I paid him to shoot my neighbour, but I also paid him to mow the lawn."

The league's 'agenda' should always be enforcing the rules of the competition, but beyond the implications for the salary cap which are the more serious issue from a rules standpoint I think there is a moral case to answer here. When any of us that play sport (whether contact or not) we play it hard. We run until our lungs burn, we get angry with calls, we hit and we get hit, and afterwards we drag our battered bodies down to the pub. That's natural. But there are rules, and lines you don't cross, and quite frankly anyone who licks his lips in anticipation of an opponent going home in an ambulance is a psychopath.

Sometimes people get hurt, accidents happen when you've got people in their physical prime smacking into each other all day long, but rewarding the player that did it seems crass at best. Actively encouraging a player to injure someone, and claiming that they're just going to 'hit harder but entirely legally' is naive. It has nothing at all to do with a sport being 'pussified.'

mqtirishfan
03-02-2012, 11:37 PM
What is being reported is not the entire story. It's typical media, they're taking 1 part of what actually happened, and they are emphasizing that one point.

Yes, they got paid for dishing out hits that resulted in injuries. But they weren't only paid for that. They were paid for other positive plays as well.


This shows that they actually got rewarded MORE for NOT getting the guy carted off. If you make a great play that's clean that results in injury, yeah you will get paid, but the EXTENT of the injury did NOT result in a higher payment.



If you can't see that there's a problem with equating an interception/fumble with injuring a person, or giving someone $1,000 if their actions result in a person getting carted off the field, I don't think this debate is going to go anywhere but in a circle.

FlyingElvis
03-02-2012, 11:40 PM
This is a big deal and will result in strict discipline for 2 reasons:

1. It goes against the player safety politics that the league is enforcing in an attempt to justify an 18 game season in the future, as well as protect themselves against lawsuits by ex players.

2. It is in direct violation of the league rules, which states you can't pay players off the table for anything outside of the realms of their contracts.


That's why the punishment will be significant. The morality of this issue is being way overblown however. We act like this is some kind of inhumane occurrence that no one else would do. And that's so inaccurate it's not even funny. This is something that goes on in every locker room, and is encouraged in every locker room.

This is not some immoral violation of the Saints. It's a legal violation, but not an immoral one. Every team does it. Every team is aware of it. It's part of football culture.

I'm with you, BBD. Epic stupidity on the Saints part, but that doesn't change the fact that everything you've written out here is dead on. You've basically done a nice job of writing up the long version of my snarky first post here.

Unless there's something more sinister, anyway. Personally, I'm thinking the injury / cart $$ was an additional bonus and I still don't consider it something we should all have our panties in a twist about. QB sack = $$. QB hurt on sack = more $$. Pay for performance within the rules is just not that sinister. Guys get hurt on good football plays all the time. Assuming this system was advocating injury from dirty plays is asinine, which is the media's forte.

More could come out to change my opinion on this, obviously.

yo123
03-02-2012, 11:44 PM
This is a big deal and will result in strict discipline for 2 reasons:

1. It goes against the player safety politics that the league is enforcing in an attempt to justify an 18 game season in the future, as well as protect themselves against lawsuits by ex players.

2. It is in direct violation of the league rules, which states you can't pay players off the table for anything outside of the realms of their contracts.


That's why the punishment will be significant. The morality of this issue is being way overblown however. We act like this is some kind of inhumane occurrence that no one else would do. And that's so inaccurate it's not even funny. This is something that goes on in every locker room, and is encouraged in every locker room.

This is not some immoral violation of the Saints. It's a legal violation, but not an immoral one. Every team does it. Every team is aware of it. It's part of football culture.


Wait. So because more than one team does it it's okay? Intentionally causing injury to someone else is alright? Stop twisting this in a way that makes it seem like everyone who thinks it's wrong is against physical football. The league has gone too far in making the league "safe" but what the Saints did is "immoral" in every goddamn sense of the word. Paying others to intentionally injure someone else is unarguably immoral, there is no justification. You can play physical football without resorting to cheap shots, I don't understand where there is any gray area here.

It seems like it's the cool thing to do lately on here to act like things like this aren't a big deal, but it ******* is. Permanent injuries happen in the NFL, and that's just the way that it is. But to go out of your way to increase the chances of it? **** that. **** everything about that.

NOLAFan
03-02-2012, 11:50 PM
You know if the Saints as an organization and a team dont implode before the start of the season i fully expect for every man, woman,and child on an NFL team to try to buttfuck the **** out of Brees.

brat316
03-02-2012, 11:58 PM
This bad. Players will be more tight lipped about it now. Saints get trouble, lose pick(s), get fine.

fear the elf
03-03-2012, 12:46 AM
I'm with you, BBD. Epic stupidity on the Saints part, but that doesn't change the fact that everything you've written out here is dead on. You've basically done a nice job of writing up the long version of my snarky first post here.

Unless there's something more sinister, anyway. Personally, I'm thinking the injury / cart $$ was an additional bonus and I still don't consider it something we should all have our panties in a twist about. QB sack = $$. QB hurt on sack = more $$. Pay for performance within the rules is just not that sinister. Guys get hurt on good football plays all the time. Assuming this system was advocating injury from dirty plays is asinine, which is the media's forte.

More could come out to change my opinion on this, obviously.

Just because they didn't advocate dirty play, doesn't mean a monetary reward for injuries doesn't create the impetus for dirty play.

I'm not great with analogies, but in my mind it's like telling a cab driver he'll get a $50 tip if he get's you to the airport in 10 minutes. You're not telling him to break the law, but you're definitely going to make him think about doing it.

Razor
03-03-2012, 02:05 AM
John Clayton is reporting that the punishment is expected to be much harder than the Patriots were punished for Spygate and could be multiple draft picks. PFT is reporting that the league should consider to remove the Saints' franchise tag. Surely taking the Saints' franchise tag would be the equivalent of the death penalty. Losing Brees and Nicks would expose their defense and they'd be back to sucking in no time.

I just hope this means that Gregg Williams never work in the NFL again. He's such a dick. I will do cartwheels of joy if he's kicked out of the league.

TitanHope
03-03-2012, 02:13 AM
They should've just consulted this guy.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4012/4344545116_ca67cd069c_z.jpg

He knows a thing or two about bounties.

If somebody already posted this, DAMN THEM!

Gay Ork Wang
03-03-2012, 03:55 AM
Bears lost Earl Bennett on a real cheap shot and Carimi was hurt too :/ Cutler was kicked to the throat. DAMNIT WE COULDVE BEEN IN THE PLAYOFFS!

WCH
03-03-2012, 04:08 AM
John Clayton is reporting that the punishment is expected to be much harder than the Patriots were punished for Spygate and could be multiple draft picks. PFT is reporting that the league should consider to remove the Saints' franchise tag. Surely taking the Saints' franchise tag would be the equivalent of the death penalty. Losing Brees and Nicks would expose their defense and they'd be back to sucking in no time.

I just hope this means that Gregg Williams never work in the NFL again. He's such a dick. I will do cartwheels of joy if he's kicked out of the league.
During the Spygate drama, I do seem to remember BB being told that he'd be out of the league if he got caught doing anything like that again. I wouldn't rule out a lower-profile coach being suspended, if not banned. Especially given the PR situation: the average football fan didn't understand WTF Spygate was even about, or why it was frowned upon by the league office; but the average fan certainly understands that paying somebody to intentionally injure somebody else is something that is typically only done by "bad guys."

Personally, I'm hoping that they lose their franchise tag just because I think it'd be funny. It was, what, two days ago that they were reporting that Loomis wanted to pay Brees like a "good" but not "great" QB?

Loomis has been a very good GM for a historically bad franchise, but the negative PR over the past few days is going to get his ass fired.

Leo
03-03-2012, 05:37 AM
http://i.imgur.com/0mp0R.jpg

TheBoyWonder22
03-03-2012, 05:50 AM
http://m.youtube.com/?rdm=4ozmbjtgj&reload=3#/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
This video will explain why this incentive didn't necessarily lead to productivity. Interesting concept I learned in school.

SuperPacker
03-03-2012, 06:02 AM
So the players were paid for making big hits not injuring players? I have no problem with that, thats basically a bonus for playing well.

falloutboy14
03-03-2012, 07:58 AM
So the players were paid for making big hits not injuring players? I have no problem with that, thats basically a bonus for playing well.

They were given bonuses if players were carted off the field or knocked out of the game.

SuperPacker
03-03-2012, 08:04 AM
They were given bonuses if players were carted off the field or knocked out of the game.

So then why the **** are people defending what the did? That is defintely a morality problem and should be punished properly.

Having said that i dont think the punishment should be too hard, people are saying a first round draft pick or three year bans. Thats just ridiculous.

Trogdor
03-03-2012, 08:19 AM
Silly arguments guys. We all want to see hard hitting but clean play on defense. Two completely sensible ways of coming at this.

1st: It is against NFL policy no matter what they characterized it so they are in the wrong regardless.

2nd: Point 1 can't be argued this is the more sensible premise. There would be ZERO outrage if players were given a bonus for "big hits". It was stated as "forcing a player to leave the game or carted off". They were NOT REWARDED FOR BIG HITS. They were rewarded for intentionally injuring an opponent.

The difference? You get paid on the result of the injury not by the result of the play. If you poke your opponent in the eye you get $1,500. If you lay the lumber of a crossing route and stop them on 3rd and short and he gets up and runs off the field... you get $0. Play 1 you probably get ejected and cost your team 15 yards. Play 2 you made an effective defensive play. See the problem?

The policy will get them punished harshly and rightly so considering it wasn't even advocating smart defense just dirty play.

boknows34
03-03-2012, 08:20 AM
Saints v Warner in the 2009 playoffs.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815c4a78/Kurt-Warner-injury

.. and Favre a week later
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815f15c5/Favre-INT-and-injury

J-Mike88
03-03-2012, 09:15 AM
http://i.imgur.com/0mp0R.jpg
That's classic.
Epic stuff.

njx9, the people who constantly ***** about things like fines for illegal hits, or head-hunting hits that they say are "just football", pretending that the game has gone soft, those are the people who should be ashamed of themselves. The game is not soft whatsoever. It's as brutal as ever out there. Stand on the sideline of an NFL game next year.

Just because the bloody Ryan Clarks and James Harrisons ***** about it on twitter doesn't mean the game is soft and it's easy to be a WR, RB, TE, QB today.... that's a crock.

There are bloody defenders going after knees, and heads out there. It ain't soft. You, and anyone else here who is playing that card, go out there once and we'll hand you the ball. You'd last one play.

Defensive players are bigger, faster, stronger than ever before, and they are trying to KO players, cleanly or not.

Louis Delmas is the dirtiest mofo out there today!

Anyway, Gregg Williams is the one who deserves the biggest penalty here, moreso than the Saints, or Redskins.
He was the common denominator here.

AntoinCD
03-03-2012, 09:16 AM
Here's my two cents whole issue

The NFL are going to crack down extremely hard on the Saints. They broke the rules and they got caught. They deserve to be punished.

The whole grey area thing about injuring players and "bountygate" is simply a sideline issue for me.

They broke the rules of the salary cap by offering bonuses off the books. This in itself probably deserves financial penalties against the Saints and fines against leading participants and decision makers, ie Gregg Williams, Sean Payton and Mickey Loomis. All 3 had at least some knowledge of this violation and not enough was done to stop it.

The media are running with the whole injurying players part of it though. Due to the NFL's push for player safety this is the reason why harsh penalties will be levied. Roger Goodell is going to make an example out of the Saints for this.

The fact that offering the bonuses directly violates league rules means they deserve to be punished. Obviously the debate then starts as to what would be a fair punishment and really none of us are qualified to say.

The main debate in this thread seems to be around the integrity of the issue. The seems to be pretty much two sides.

1. The Saints went out to injure players. They're scum and should be banned from playing ever again.

2. Eh, that's how football should be played.

This scenario, as with pretty much everything in life though falls somewhere in the middle.

If you forget about the actual violation of league rules in regards to payments;

The Saints basically were rewarding players who made significant plays which enhanced their chances of winning the game. Forcing fumbles, getting INTs and knocking a star player out of the game are all ways to increase your chances against any particular opponent.

A blind side sack when the QB is readying himself to throw the ball may lead to him being driven to the turf with his shoulder extended and the force could cause a separated shoulder, or maybe even something as little as pain and discomfort. This is a very good play by the defender as he not only sacked the QB but he fairly knocked the QB out for at least a few plays.

Likewise if a shifty slot WR catches a slant across the middle and an ILB lowers the boom on his rib cage and cracks a rib it is described as a big hit which helps his team.

These are the types of positive plays that people will say the Saints were trying to reward.

However it simply isn't as cut and dry as that. Players can, and will, take this to the extreme. Where in the pay for performance plan does it state if you injure a player with a fair hit then you get paid, however if you injure a player with a cheap shot then you don't because it's against the rules??? It doesn't and therefore any player can make his own interpretation of this.

I think we can all agree that injuries happen in football because it is a violent sport played by some of the biggest, fastest and strongest men in the world. When full force collision happen between two big men something has to give. However when injuries happen due to other things, such as twisting a guys ankle after the play (Jabari Greer on Adrian Peterson for example) or aiming low at a guy's knees, or arm barring someone in a pile then it's a different story. Clearly the implied opinion of most people is that the Saints were actively encouraging this type of behaviour. Whether or not that is true we can't definitively say at this point. However due to the crack down on illegal hits/big hits to improve player safety you can bet your bottom dollar that Roger Goodell is going to punish the Saints as though they were actively encouraging directly breaking rules.

J-Mike88
03-03-2012, 10:21 AM
Here's my two cents whole issue....

However when injuries happen due to other things, such as twisting a guys ankle after the play (Jabari Greer on Adrian Peterson for example) or aiming low at a guy's knee (like Louis Delmas)

.....Roger Goodell is going to punish the Saints as though they were actively encouraging directly breaking rules.
So more on your two cents:
That's all logical, but now go out on a limb and tell us what you think the penalties to each party WILL be, and what you think they SHOULD be.

AntoinCD
03-03-2012, 10:28 AM
So more on your two cents:
That's all logical, but now go out on a limb and tell us what you think the penalties to each party WILL be, and what you think they SHOULD be.

My guess for what they will be

Gregg Williams gets fined $250,000 and suspended 8 games
New Orleans Saints get fined $500,000 and forfeit their second round pick this year and their first round pick next year

I don't think Williams should be made the scapegoat. He is the defensive coordinator and his head coach and GM knew what was going on. If they really wanted it stopped they would have stopped it. Williams should be fined maybe $50k and suspended two games.
The Sainst broke the salary cap rules and should be maybe fined $150k and forfeit their second round pick this year.

IMO the offense isn't that serious. But with player safety rules increasing Goodell will bring the hammer down. I have a feeling Goodell wants his legacy as NFL Commissioner to be that of the guy who made the game safer and protected players. This is his chance to really enforce that view.

bigbluedefense
03-03-2012, 10:41 AM
My stance on the issue hasn't changed, and it won't change. I think what annoys me about this thread is the amount of misinformation being thrown around. Let's get a couple of things straight:

1. There is NO evidence that the Saints rewarded their players for making illegal plays, nor is there any evidence that they advocated taking cheap shots on opponents.

2. This ridiculous assumption that Greg Williams was the only coach enforcing this rule. Plenty of ex players and coaches are coming out saying this has been around forever and in multiple locker rooms.

The 49ers DB coach has a point system that rewards players for knocking players out of the game according to Paul Batino. How is that any different from this?

Have we not heard the Ravens openly talking about putting bounties out on Hines Ward? Have we not heard about the bounties out on Shawne Merriman?

The 2 games everyone is using as an illustration of bounty gate were vs the Cards and Vikings. Both starting qbs have come out and said it doesn't bother them.

And I dare anyone to go back and watch those games again, and show me where the Saints were cheapshotting either qb. Those were all good hard, clean hits. They were making good aggressive physical football plays.

What really annoys me is this holier than thou ******** that my team would never do this. Newsflash: this is prevalent in every locker room in the league. The Saints just got caught.

Everyone is just assuming that they were getting paid to cheap shot, to poke eyes out, etc, and that is just so ridiculously untrue. That's what I find annoying about this whole topic.

The level of ignorance on the subject matter. If you don't like it, fine, you don't like it. But as Antonio Pierce stated yesterday, you don't want to know what goes on in NFL locker rooms. This is prevalent everywhere, and has been for decades.

If you think defensive players aren't coached to try to hurt players when they hit them, then you clearly haven't been around the sport.

It's a violent sport. These guys knew what they signed up for.


I dare anyone here to show me where any of the players or coaches said "I'll give you $$ to go after Player A's knees after the whistle" or anything of that nature.

That wasn't the case. This whole issue is being blown way out of proportion. If you don't want this to go on, then put flags on them.

Defense was meant to be physical, to intimidate. Dick Butkus is a HOFer bc he wanted to rip your head off on every play. You think he gave a **** if you got hurt or not? That was the whole point.

His name was Mean Joe Greene. Not Nice Joe Greene.

This whole outrage is ridiculous, and just an example of how little we know about the NFL's dirty little secrets. What makes this sport great is the physicality that is displayed on the field. If you want to eliminate that by putting restrictions on these guys, then don't complain when the sport turns into flag football.

diabsoule
03-03-2012, 10:55 AM
Here's an article discussing the Ravens bounty for Hines Ward. It also hits on Bart Scott putting "a little hot sauce" on Reggie Bush's ankle which caused him to go leave the game from an injury.

http://www.aolnews.com/2008/10/22/ravens-address-the-hines-ward-bounty-talk/

AntoinCD
03-03-2012, 10:59 AM
I do find it quite laughable some of the people who are up in arms that the mean, nasty Saints deliberately tried to injure people and even openly discussed it.

If any fan of any team somehow thinks that this kind of thing doesn't go on at even a small level on their team then they are kidding themselves.

It may be a case of guys in a positional group put in some of their own money or have an agreement with each other. Say the LB corps say to each other the Saturday before the game "okay, whoever gets Peterson out of the game gets the money" and say they each throw in $200.

Every team does this in some shape or form. It's not nice but it's reality.

The thing with the Saints is it was known from the top of the organisation down, organised by a coach, and since the team knew of the payments they broke the salary cap rules.

As long as guys play within the rules up until the whistle then I have no qualms with injuries occuring.

diabsoule
03-03-2012, 11:10 AM
Here's an excellent article written by 7 year NFL veteran Matt Bowen on a bounty system (Rams, Packers, Redskins, Bills)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-spt-0304-bowen-nfl--20120304,0,4015992.column

Crazy_Chris
03-03-2012, 11:15 AM
They should've just consulted this guy.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4012/4344545116_ca67cd069c_z.jpg

He knows a thing or two about bounties.

If somebody already posted this, DAMN THEM!

This picture has potential to be epic, someone needs to think of a good caption for it.

cmarq83
03-03-2012, 11:22 AM
BBD I don't think most people are outraged or even a little bit surprised by this news, but despite the prevalence of it in the NFL or how ingrained it is in the culture of the NFL it doesn't make it in any way an ethical or legal behavior.

When Jonathan Vilma puts $10,000 on the table and says that he'll give it the guy who knocks Brett Farve out of the game, even though he didn't say explicitly to do anything outside of the context of the rules, he still implied that players should take certain liberties to do this. Whether it's somebody taking a shot that they didn't need to after an interception, or hitting him when they could have pulled up, they provided an incentive system which encouraged others to take actions in an attempt to physically harm another player.

There is a risk that every player takes when they walk onto a football field. However, the players should do everything that they can to preserve the health of their peers, as long as it doesn't effect the performance of their job. Everybody has seen the kind of damage that football causes to former players health long term, so why is it ok to take measures to exacerbate those problems when the players don't need to? I like good physical football as much as the next guy, but having "knockout" pools crosses the line.

The Saints certainly aren't the ones who do this, and it definitely sucks for them that they were the first ones to get caught. However, like when the Patriots got caught, there really is no good defense for what they were doing, regardless of how small of an impact it has in the large scheme of things. It violates league policy, and is simply unethical behavior to engage in.

Let the league penalize the Saints whatever they see fit, and hopefully pools like this stop being a part of the league.

Saints Dome Patrol
03-03-2012, 11:31 AM
Actually, since 2006, when Payton took over. Guess I was wrong pretty much.

I was making a joke. Since both the Buccaneers and Saints franchises were not the "respectable" franchises "through the years" that you were commenting on. I suppose my sarcasm was not picked up on through text.

ShutDwn
03-03-2012, 11:35 AM
4kr24G8jQpM


Pshhh Kobra Kai wasn't bad, all the dojos do it.

Saints Dome Patrol
03-03-2012, 11:41 AM
My stance on the issue hasn't changed, and it won't change. I think what annoys me about this thread is the amount of misinformation being thrown around. Let's get a couple of things straight:

1. There is NO evidence that the Saints rewarded their players for making illegal plays, nor is there any evidence that they advocated taking cheap shots on opponents.

2. This ridiculous assumption that Greg Williams was the only coach enforcing this rule. Plenty of ex players and coaches are coming out saying this has been around forever and in multiple locker rooms.

The 49ers DB coach has a point system that rewards players for knocking players out of the game according to Paul Batino. How is that any different from this?

Have we not heard the Ravens openly talking about putting bounties out on Hines Ward? Have we not heard about the bounties out on Shawne Merriman?

The 2 games everyone is using as an illustration of bounty gate were vs the Cards and Vikings. Both starting qbs have come out and said it doesn't bother them.

And I dare anyone to go back and watch those games again, and show me where the Saints were cheapshotting either qb. Those were all good hard, clean hits. They were making good aggressive physical football plays.

What really annoys me is this holier than thou ******** that my team would never do this. Newsflash: this is prevalent in every locker room in the league. The Saints just got caught.

Everyone is just assuming that they were getting paid to cheap shot, to poke eyes out, etc, and that is just so ridiculously untrue. That's what I find annoying about this whole topic.

The level of ignorance on the subject matter. If you don't like it, fine, you don't like it. But as Antonio Pierce stated yesterday, you don't want to know what goes on in NFL locker rooms. This is prevalent everywhere, and has been for decades.

If you think defensive players aren't coached to try to hurt players when they hit them, then you clearly haven't been around the sport.

It's a violent sport. These guys knew what they signed up for.


I dare anyone here to show me where any of the players or coaches said "I'll give you $$ to go after Player A's knees after the whistle" or anything of that nature.

That wasn't the case. This whole issue is being blown way out of proportion. If you don't want this to go on, then put flags on them.

Defense was meant to be physical, to intimidate. Dick Butkus is a HOFer bc he wanted to rip your head off on every play. You think he gave a **** if you got hurt or not? That was the whole point.

His name was Mean Joe Greene. Not Nice Joe Greene.

This whole outrage is ridiculous, and just an example of how little we know about the NFL's dirty little secrets. What makes this sport great is the physicality that is displayed on the field. If you want to eliminate that by putting restrictions on these guys, then don't complain when the sport turns into flag football.

Sadly, the NFL is sliding down the slippery side of the mountain and soon enough it will be the NFFL - the National Flag Football League. As you, and several other forum members, have put it, this sort of behavior happens in every locker room in every NFL team stadiums across the country.

Read my latest blog entry if you want to hear what Kurt Warner and Damien Woody said about the Saints "Bountygate".

The worse of it all, because the Saints are the Saints and not one of the league's beloved franchises, expect Commissioner Goodell to try to make an example of the Saints - especially since allegedly the coach and front office knew about it and failed to take any action.

Prowler
03-03-2012, 11:47 AM
I'm expecting fines, 2nd round draft pick forfeited, and some kind of suspensions of players. Probably 2-3 players for a game. Just personal speculation.

J-Mike88
03-03-2012, 11:55 AM
Here's an excellent article written by 7 year NFL veteran Matt Bowen on a bounty system (Rams, Packers, Redskins, Bills)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-spt-0304-bowen-nfl--20120304,0,4015992.column
Yeah very good piece.
I'm not saying it's right. Or ethical. But the NFL isn't little league football with neighborhood dads playing head coach. This is the business of winning. If that means stepping over some line, you do it.

Bounties, cheap shots, whatever you want to call them, they are a part of this game. It is an ugly tradition that was exposed Friday with Williams front and center from his time coaching the defense in New Orleans. But don't peg this on him alone. You will find it in plenty of NFL cities.

Again, just because something's going on, doesn't mean it's right.
There's plenty of muggings, rapes, assaults, crack-dealing going on today on street corners all over America. Doesn't mean it's right or shouldn't be cracked down on.

This great game of football will still be very violent even without bounties for injuring players. Hard hits are great, above the knees and below the heads.

killxswitch
03-03-2012, 12:06 PM
I hope they kick Williams out of the league. This ******** is the reason Peyton Manning has had 4 neck surgeries. What a scumbag.

AntoinCD
03-03-2012, 12:08 PM
The main way you know this happens elsewhere is the reaction of guys like Favre and Warner, who both had bounties put on them.

Brett Favre

“I'm not pissed. It's football, I don't think anything less of those guys. Said or unsaid, guys do it anyway. If they can drill you and get you out, they will.''

Kurt Warner

“And I’m not going to tell you that I haven’t believed that there was probably defensive players that got together and said, ‘Hey, you know, a thousand bucks for the first guy to knock Kurt out of a football game.’ I’m sure that’s been a part of our league for a long time.”

Seamus2602
03-03-2012, 12:29 PM
I hope they kick Williams out of the league. This ******** is the reason Peyton Manning has had 4 neck surgeries. What a scumbag.

To be fair Mario Williams didn't help.

Or Charlie Johnson, Ryan Diem or Jeff Linkenbach.

Phins827
03-03-2012, 12:29 PM
Intimidation is a big part of defense. You want your defense to be feared. You get into the offense's head. You don't want them going over the middle with no fear of getting lit up, you don't want the qb to throw the ball without any fear of getting hit.

Intimidation is a big part of defense. I don't think the Saints were telling their guys "go after knees, stomp this guy after the whistle, twist this guy's ankle"

I think they were just emphasizing physical play. Don't be afraid to light someone up. You get fined for sneezing on offenses now. So they basically said ok, we'll put away money as a defense for fines, and accept them and sacrifice some money for physical play.

I don't have a problem with that.

You've got to be ******* kidding me. No, they aren't making "illegal" hits, but to pay someone because they seriously injured a player?

Defense shouldn't lose aggression. But offensive players are people too. Like defensive players, these players live their whole lives devoted to playing in the NFL. From Pop Warner, to High School, to College, and then the day they are drafted when all of their dreams are finally realized.

And you want to reward players for ending another person's lifelong dream? It's quite sickening actually.

bucfan12
03-03-2012, 12:36 PM
I was making a joke. Since both the Buccaneers and Saints franchises were not the "respectable" franchises "through the years" that you were commenting on. I suppose my sarcasm was not picked up on through text.

Yeah, kinda difficult to pick up sarcasm through text. Now, I'm hearing things could get as bad as Payton losing his job? Haha. this is getting better every minute.

Gay Ork Wang
03-03-2012, 12:48 PM
http://cnnsi.com/2012/writers/michael_mccann/03/03/saints.bounty.system/index.html

SI: The Saints "pay for injury" model could lead to battery and conspiracy charges; players may face tax evasion charges if they didn't report their bounty payments.

gsorace
03-03-2012, 01:00 PM
I'm honestly shocked that this is even a story. Every team does this.

Gay Ork Wang
03-03-2012, 01:05 PM
I'm honestly shocked that this is even a story. Every team does this.
these are all speculations. saints got caught. it is against the rules. how is this not going to be a story?

diabsoule
03-03-2012, 01:07 PM
Too bad Jack Black isn't the NFL commissioner. All he would do to the Saints for breaking the rules is pull out all of their pubic hair

NYFhWBCfoX0

AntoinCD
03-03-2012, 01:13 PM
I'm honestly shocked that this is even a story. Every team does this.

So a team who has blatantly broken the rules for 3 years, paid players benefits that broke salary cap rules, players received money that wasn't declared for tax purposes, the team was investigated by the league where multiple team officials and players lied shouldn't be a story???

Too much of a deal is made out of the bounty part of it but the Saints broke the rules, were investigated and continued anyway. And this came with knowledge of everyone as high up as the owner. This is a major story but for different reasons to the one everyone gets caught up on.

If Mickey Loomis somehow keeps his job I'll be shocked.

gpngc
03-03-2012, 01:19 PM
Not reading this entire thread. What is the projected penalty (this year's 2nd and next year's 1st?)

And who the **** leaked it? Any speculation?

Scotty D
03-03-2012, 01:29 PM
Not reading this entire thread. What is the projected penalty (this year's 2nd and next year's 1st?)

And who the **** leaked it? Any speculation?

What defensive players have been cut or not brought back recently?

papageorgio
03-03-2012, 01:41 PM
Saints v Warner in the 2009 playoffs.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815c4a78/Kurt-Warner-injury

.. and Favre a week later
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d815f15c5/Favre-INT-and-injury

Theres nothing dirty about any of those plays. This is football not figure skating. If you cant handle the injuries which is a part of football go into another sport.

These guys are getting paid millions to play aggressive and try and hurt their opponents.

If you dont have that mentality as a player you should find another job.

AntoinCD
03-03-2012, 01:41 PM
I've been thinking about this and one thing that really pisses me off is people using a major issue like player safety for their own, or their group's, gain.

Former New Orleans Saints LB Scott Fujita is a member of the NFLPA Executive Committee who stood up against so many things last year during the NFL Lockout, including going to an 18 game regular season because it would be detrimental to the long term health of NFL players.

Here is a lovely, poignant letter from Scott Fujita's wife Jaclyn written last year which warned of the dangers of playing in the NFL.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/159361/wish-nfl-wife

Pay particulalr attention to the fifth paragraph in the letter where she eloquently states

"The sport which taught them to play through pain, to never complain, to never stop, to yell, to scream, to hit, to fight, to destroy the man in front of them, to work until they puke, to lay their body on the line every Sunday and just hope that they walk off that field and aren’t carried."

There is one plea near the end where Jaclyn Fujita says

"And here they are, simply asking the men who profit from their work, to please look after their health, as they should have done throughout their career."

The letter is very touching and hits on important points. Points which were rightfully fought for last year during the lockout. It is not right that NFL teams make billions and don't look after player safety. Concussions and other brain injuries are not only occuring with some former players but are common.

But my question is this, when, last year during the labour negotiations, did Scott Fujita come out and state that he was fully aware of a bounty program going on in his former team? A bounty program that was organised by the defensive coordinator in New Orleans. A bounty program that his former head coach and General Manager were aware of. A bounty program which clearly states a player will receive a bonus payment of $1000 for a player to be carted off. Is this not the exact same thing that Jaclyn Fujita wrote about in her letter when she said "to lay their body on the line every Sunday and just hope that they walk off that field and aren’t carried"

Maybe Scott Fujita just didn't tell his wife that he was involved in a bounty program, or maybe she didn't care when the extra money came rolling in, or maybe neither of them cared and simply covered it all up.

falloutboy14
03-03-2012, 01:42 PM
Not reading this entire thread. What is the projected penalty (this year's 2nd and next year's 1st?)

And who the **** leaked it? Any speculation?

Not sure if it's credible, but there's also talk of suspensions for Williams & players.

Regarding the leak, this what I could find:
http://theredzone.org/BlogDescription.aspx?EntryID=24242


Goodell said the investigation began in 2010 after allegations were made that the Saints defenders had targeted Arizona Cardinals quarterback Kurt Warner and Minnesota Vikings quarterback Brett Favre during their 2009 run to the Super Bowl. "Our security department interviewed numerous players and other individuals," Goodell said. "At the time, those interviewed denied that any such program existed and the player that made the allegation retracted his earlier assertions. As a result, the allegations could not be proven. We recently received significant and credible new information and the investigation was re-opened during the latter part of the 2011 season.”

papageorgio
03-03-2012, 01:43 PM
I think there is something wrong with getting extra compensation to purposely injure someone. Those guys guys weren't getting the big bucks unless the opposing player was carted off the field in some cases. That makes the stakes higher and makes it a priority to not only stop an offensive player, but cause serious injury so the defender will get paid.

You hit 100 percent no matter what. The bonus are just for team camaraderie. You make a nice big hit you get a little bonus.

monson
03-03-2012, 05:06 PM
every player involved gets 2 games and the saints lose a first round pick.

coaches get fined.

any less and Roger is a paper tiger.

Isn't this a cap violation of some sort?

Halsey
03-03-2012, 05:15 PM
The Saints are dirty, stinking cheaters! I will no longer acknowledge any of their wins over the Falcons! In fact, they don't deserve credit for their Super Bowl victory! Those rings belong to Peyton Manning and Jim Caldwell!

falloutboy14
03-03-2012, 05:16 PM
It is a cap violation.

Also from hwat I've read, it's 22-27 defensive players. If 22-27 defensive players get suspended for 2 games, that's going to be some interesting roster moves on their part. At worst, choose 3-4 of the worst offenders and limit it to that.

monson
03-03-2012, 05:18 PM
you could stagger the suspensions. 27 players 3 a game.

and of course they might be evading taxes at some level.

WCH
03-03-2012, 05:38 PM
you could stagger the suspensions. 27 players 3 a game.

and of course they might be evading taxes at some level.

Most of them are almost certainly evading taxes, on a lot of levels, probably without even knowing it. Their problem is, now the IRS might actually look into it.

Legacy
03-03-2012, 07:00 PM
I'm honestly shocked that this is even a story. Every team does this.
********.

I'll have you know the Buccaneers defense can't hit anyone, much less injure an opposing player.

monson
03-03-2012, 07:19 PM
I admit I get frustrated by NFL and their flag waving BS. If players in the NFL evaded taxes while soldiers in Afghanistan are losing limbs and lives then the NFL needs to ban players and coaches (mike tice from years ago) who don't pay taxes owed.

"(Curiously, peace-time appeals for individuals to make some small sacrifice in ... their standard of living seem to be less effective than war-time appeals they lay down their lives...:

R. Dawkins

I know lots of people and companies evade taxes but the NFL waves the flag hard.

Raiderz4Life
03-03-2012, 08:07 PM
oh, and i'm still waiting for all those paralyzed receivers.

Look no further than my sig

WCH
03-03-2012, 08:28 PM
or it means you're 13 years old and have zero historical perspective. but whatever.

Yeah, I know. I'd honestly like to go back to leather helmets without facemasks, and then see how ballsy the defenders are when they're tempted to turn themselves into projectiles.

TonyGfortheTD
03-03-2012, 08:34 PM
My guess for what they will be

Gregg Williams gets fined $250,000 and suspended 8 games
New Orleans Saints get fined $500,000 and forfeit their second round pick this year and their first round pick next year

I don't think Williams should be made the scapegoat. He is the defensive coordinator and his head coach and GM knew what was going on. If they really wanted it stopped they would have stopped it. Williams should be fined maybe $50k and suspended two games.
The Sainst broke the salary cap rules and should be maybe fined $150k and forfeit their second round pick this year.

IMO the offense isn't that serious. But with player safety rules increasing Goodell will bring the hammer down. I have a feeling Goodell wants his legacy as NFL Commissioner to be that of the guy who made the game safer and protected players. This is his chance to really enforce that view.

Too light of a penalty for a coach that's done it for several years while under multiple teams. Same goes for the Saints as someone that represents them lied about this when asked and basically wiped his ass with a mandate from the commissioner that it stops immediately. They are going to get hammered hard for racketeering.

BeerBaron
03-03-2012, 08:38 PM
Mickey Loomis also apparently lied to the NFL while investigating, so I see him also getting punished directly.

WCH
03-03-2012, 08:45 PM
or how ballsy receivers are when they can get clothes-lined neck level at any point in their route. or when defensive lineman can headslap at will. etc.

You must be mistaking me for somebody else. I'm okay with those things.

I just don't think that players with modern, solid helmets should be intentionally diving at knees or heads just to get some tax-free bonus cash from a low-life coach.

Play mean, play dirty, even play to inflict pain; but don't be a psychopath.

J-Mike88
03-03-2012, 08:54 PM
I just don't think that players with modern, solid helmets should be intentionally diving at knees or heads just to get some tax-free bonus cash from a low-life coach..
Is that you Louis?
Louis...... ?
It's just BS that Nick Collins has a guy jump over him, and nick him on the head, probably ending HIS career with the fluke neck injury, but Louie fuqing dives into knees to try and rip their ACL's, and his neck is fine.

One never hopes for a neck injury (well except the Saints I guess), but if someone's gonna get it, why can't it be the ****ers like Delmas.

Is there such a thing as Karma?
nWRubjRQP60
uCBN5Fr-Ums

BeerBaron
03-03-2012, 08:57 PM
Oh, a Lion being dirty. What else is new.

Scotty D
03-03-2012, 09:14 PM
Is that you Louis?
Louis...... ?
It's just BS that Nick Collins has a guy jump over him, and nick him on the head, probably ending HIS career with the fluke neck injury, but Louie fuqing dives into knees to try and rip their ACL's, and his neck is fine.

One never hopes for a neck injury (well except the Saints I guess), but if someone's gonna get it, why can't it be the ****ers like Delmas.

Is there such a thing as Karma?


Oh, a Lion being dirty. What else is new.

http://i.imgur.com/PVDYP.jpg

OzTitan
03-03-2012, 09:15 PM
Gotta say, between Greg Williams, the Lions with Schwartz, and the rep Chuck Cecil had as a player, and the fact the Titans had the most penalties of any NFL team in the previous decade, Jeff Fisher sure seems to represent a common theme.

Brodeur
03-03-2012, 09:18 PM
Oh, a Lion being dirty. What else is new.

Honestly, I don't wish injuries upon players because it's just off to me, but just because of you...I hope Delmas takes out Cutler's ACL next season.

WCH
03-03-2012, 09:43 PM
Gotta say, between Greg Williams, the Lions with Schwartz, and the rep Chuck Cecil had as a player, and the fact the Titans had the most penalties of any NFL team in the previous decade, Jeff Fisher sure seems to represent a common theme.

Is Fisher's coaching tree the latest "Kill a mother-****** dead" tree?

Complex
03-03-2012, 09:43 PM
Honestly, I don't wish injuries upon players because it's just off to me, but just because of you...I hope Delmas takes out Cutler's ACL next season.

Suh injures Jay Cutler throwing arm on the same play. This board would be so funny if this happened.

Complex
03-03-2012, 09:43 PM
Gotta say, between Greg Williams, the Lions with Schwartz, and the rep Chuck Cecil had as a player, and the fact the Titans had the most penalties of any NFL team in the previous decade, Jeff Fisher sure seems to represent a common theme.

Really? we beat the raiders?

BeerBaron
03-03-2012, 09:51 PM
Honestly, I don't wish injuries upon players because it's just off to me, but just because of you...I hope Delmas takes out Cutler's ACL next season.

Then I'd never shut up about it.

Go through a season free of players getting suspended and not have the top two most flagged players for personal fouls in the league and maybe I'll reign it in a little.

OzTitan
03-03-2012, 10:01 PM
Really? we beat the raiders?

Rephrase - significant penalties, i.e. the 15 yard ones, yes we did - and it wasn't even close:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/54537/saints-bounty-system-and-the-rams

Brodeur
03-03-2012, 10:01 PM
Then I'd never shut up about it.

Go through a season free of players getting suspended and not have the top two most flagged players for personal fouls in the league and maybe I'll reign it in a little.

I don't think we did have the two most flagged players in the league, so you'll have to actually back that up. And constant ticky tacky ******** that was given to us because of horrid officiating counts to things too.

OzTitan
03-03-2012, 10:02 PM
Then I'd never shut up about it.

Go through a season free of players getting suspended and not have the top two most flagged players for personal fouls in the league and maybe I'll reign it in a little.

They'll have Finnegan in 2012, book it ;)

J-Mike88
03-03-2012, 10:24 PM
Honestly, I don't wish injuries upon players because it's just off to me, but just because of you...I hope Delmas takes out Cutler's ACL next season.

I don't think we did have the two most flagged players in the league, so you'll have to actually back that up. And constant ticky tacky ******** that was given to us because of horrid officiating counts to things too.
I agree that some of Suh's penalties were ticky-tack.
But Delmas has gotten away with plenty of cracks to the knees.
He did take out the Falcon FB's knee as you know, with a cheap shot. A ***** shot. He had a free shot at him, defenseless, and he chose to dive into his knee.
He did it to Vick there too as shown.

I also remember him doing it to Jermichael Finley in the 2009 season and injuring his knee, for 3 or 4 games. Luckily J-Mike's knee wasn't totally planted, but it was another one like Ovie where he caught and turned so it was a blind, free cheap shot. A wimp, ***** shot. Hit guys in the chest like a real man.

If I have seen 3 knee-shots, odds are I've missed a lot because I don't watch the Lions all the time.

I'd rather have Cutler cheap shot Delmas in the knee on a reverse, with Delmas blitzing, and bust Louie's ACL and MCL.

How sweet would that Karma be?

J-Mike88
03-03-2012, 10:28 PM
Lifetime Ban for Williams?
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/gregg-williams-bounty-history-result-lifetime-ban-001230526.html

Brodeur
03-03-2012, 10:31 PM
Delmas never injured Jermichael's knee, he just decked him between the numbers and Jermichael bitched about it for a year.

J-Mike88
03-03-2012, 11:04 PM
Delmas never injured Jermichael's knee, he just decked him between the numbers and Jermichael bitched about it for a year.
The one you are talking about he was flagged for, as the ball was already over his head and Finley didn't even go for it. Then Delmas hit him.
http://blog.mlive.com/highlightreel/2009/12/packers_tight_end_jermichael_f.html

I have more problem with the knee shots than this kind, although this one was a penalty, and deservedly so.

If Delmas played for Greg Williams the past 3 years, he'd have doubled his salary under the table.

bornnraisedwhodat
03-03-2012, 11:30 PM
Saints Post-BountyGate 2012 Mock Draft

7th Round - Vontez Burfict :(

Saints-Tigers
03-04-2012, 01:23 PM
People love to ***** about players being dirty, unless they are on their team. Just like guys are arrogant or douchebags, but if it's their team, they're "passionate". haha

yodabear
03-04-2012, 01:34 PM
I am starting to think we are cursed......

J-Mike88
03-04-2012, 02:06 PM
People love to ***** about players being dirty, unless they are on their team. Just like guys are arrogant or douchebags, but if it's their team, they're "passionate". haha
That's true.
They talk like tough guys, until their QB or RB gets his knee taken out, or their WR gets their head smashed in by some cheap DB's shell helmet.
Anquan Boldin was tough as hell, and his face was broken from a helmet on a cheap shot.
Granted, Arizona had no business passing that ball in that situation, but they wanted to get Warner more garbage fantasy points.

Saints-Tigers
03-04-2012, 02:08 PM
I am starting to think we are cursed......


Gregg Williams getting fired before he starts is a blessing. He's stubborn and clueless most of the time.

bigbluedefense
03-04-2012, 03:11 PM
How the **** did this turn into a Packers thread?

Jvig43
03-04-2012, 03:16 PM
How the **** did this turn into a Packers thread?

This isn't the pro green bay packers discussion section of the forum?

Also, too funny were still hearing about injuries.

bigbluedefense
03-04-2012, 03:30 PM
Yeah, apparently Delmas had a bounty on Finley's knee. And someone had a bounty on Nick Collins neck.

Wait, am I doing it right?

Brothgar
03-04-2012, 03:31 PM
Here is how I see it. If you were pissed about Spygate (or still pissed) or if you were calling for Suh stomping on another player to be suspended for 7 games then you have to be angry at this. To me this bounty thing is worse than either or both of those. We have people rewarding players for injuring players. Suh stomp was so bad because of the fact he was "intentionally trying to injure another player" well putting a bounty out is ideally the same idea intentionally trying to injure another player.

Thecollegedropout
03-04-2012, 03:41 PM
Anquan Boldin was tough as hell, and his face was broken from a helmet on a cheap shot.
Granted, Arizona had no business passing that ball in that situation, but they wanted to get Warner more garbage fantasy points.
LAWL your implying that Eric Smith knows what the hell he is doing on a play.

diabsoule
03-04-2012, 04:36 PM
http://www.ajc.com/sports/new-orleans-case-puts-1371512.html

Roddy White, Alan Faneca, Shawne Merriman, Joe Theissman, Tony Scheffler, and Matt Bowen all discuss that bounties are a league wide issue and that most, if not all, teams do it

bigbluedefense
03-04-2012, 04:38 PM
http://www.ajc.com/sports/new-orleans-case-puts-1371512.html

Roddy White, Alan Faneca, Shawne Merriman, Joe Theissman, Tony Scheffler, and Matt Bowen all discuss that bounties are a league wide issue and that most, if not all, teams do it

Good to see people speaking up on it. Tired of the "my team would never do such a thing" mumbo jumbo.

We don't want to know what goes on in NFL locker rooms. If we tried to police it all, this game, this sport, would be very different and become something that I think none of us would enjoy anymore.

Sloopy
03-04-2012, 04:55 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/dungy-gregg-williams-redskins-may-started-peyton-manning-163634407.html

I had a good chuckle about the whole "something the media can attach the word 'gate' to" joke at the beginning of this thread, but I really didn't think the media would be this stupid.