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proshoota25
04-24-2012, 03:08 PM
Use this thread to organize all draft talk here..... Can't wait!

Razor
04-25-2012, 01:58 AM
Wait, the draft discussion thread didn't work anymore? ;)

Anywho, can't wait either.. Chandler Jonezzzzz please!

proshoota25
04-25-2012, 11:19 AM
it does, i just meant during the actual draft and the few days afterwards..... its much easier to find what we all said about this draft a year from now :-)

AntoinCD
04-25-2012, 05:22 PM
I have a feeling BB is gonna do something crazy and either trade up to the top 12 for Chandler Jones or take Bruce Irvin in the first round

TNPatsFan
04-25-2012, 05:27 PM
Just heard Lombardi say on Path to the Draft that the Pats really like Chandler Jones but that they have no shot at him at 27 and he'll be long gone by then.. possibly even top 10. Wow. He usually seems to have a lot of good inside info, so we'll see if that proves to be true.

Don Vito
04-25-2012, 05:29 PM
McShay jokingly (I think) just suggested the Pats should make a big bundle of picks and move up to take Trent Richardson. Well do it dammit.

Blackluck
04-25-2012, 05:49 PM
Razor should be happy.
ARZ at 13 would be a good target; the OL they need will be too early at that pick, they don't have a 2nd, and 27 and 48 gets you to 13.

edit: Not that I'm advocating a trade (I'm fine either way) but that would seem the play if BB does indeed like Jones as much as Stacey Dales implies.

Razor
04-26-2012, 12:33 AM
I am happy to hear that, but last year everyone was saying that we were moving up to #10 and take Quinn/Kerrigan and nothing happened. I do believe that they're just pulling this out of their asses tbh, but I hope they're right.

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 12:59 AM
welcome to draft day boys.... let the rumors begin!

NFL Net's Mike Lombardi on Chandler Jones: "I think Chandler Jones has a chance to be a top-10 pick. (#Patriots) are not gonna get (him)."

AntoinCD
04-26-2012, 02:49 AM
I'm starting to think a realistic dream draft looks something like this

1a. Kendall Wright
1b. Nick Perry
2a. Devon Still
2b. Janoris Jenkins
3. Brandon Taylor

descendency
04-26-2012, 04:41 AM
We'll trade out of both picks tonight and have restocked 2013 as well as part of the rest of 2012.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 05:01 AM
Two positions BB has never drafted in the first round: WR and OLB. If any draft breaks that streak this will be it. If Wright is sitting there at 27 I think they would be hard pressed to pass on him depending on who else is available.

Razor
04-26-2012, 06:27 AM
We'll trade out of both picks tonight and have restocked 2013 as well as part of the rest of 2012.

Oh I hope so! This would be my ideal scenario if we don't make a play for Chandler Jones or to a lesser degree Mark Barron.

cmarq83
04-26-2012, 07:07 AM
We'll trade out of both picks tonight and have restocked 2013 as well as part of the rest of 2012.

I'd like to trade out of at least one of the picks, probably 31 because Green Bay and Baltimore are both going to go after the same positions as we are, and move down a few picks into the high second. From there I'd like to see us move up a few spots from 48. I really like the prospects who have been mocked in that area. If we can come away with 2 of Kevin Zeitler, Shea McClellin, Harrison Smith, Janoris Jenkins, Dre Kirkpatrick, Whitney Mercilus, Alshon Jeffrey, or Trumaine Johnson I'd be happy. I think if we can snag a 2nd next year and maybe a 5th this year at 63 that would be a good trade. However, besides for the late 2nd and 3rd I'm really not crazy about trading picks for future picks. I think there is enough talent available from picks 25-45 to warrant using out picks.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 07:35 AM
I'm starting to think a realistic dream draft looks something like this

1a. Kendall Wright
1b. Nick Perry
2a. Devon Still
2b. Janoris Jenkins
3. Brandon Taylor

Fuel (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/rapid-reports/post/18832757)for Kendall Wright. Maybe for the second or if everyone they want is gone by their pick.

As far as trading down, it seems to me that will be harder this year, but then I suppose there are always 'hot seat' GMs and coaches.

Razor
04-26-2012, 08:02 AM
I like Wright in the second. His stock was way too high earlier in the draft process but I think he might have found his level in the early to mid second round. He has a lot of speed and can catch the ball pretty well, but he's not a guy who will consistently make defenders miss and take it to the house. I like to compare him to Deion Branch with a bit more speed and less refinement as a route runner.

Razor
04-26-2012, 09:56 AM
Nolan Nawrocki has us taking Fleener at 31. I'm actually alright with that should we be unable to trade out. Other than that the usual picks for NE seems to be McClellin and H. Smith.

SuperPacker
04-26-2012, 09:58 AM
Nolan Nawrocki has us taking Fleener at 31. I'm actually alright with that should we be unable to trade out. Other than that the usual picks for NE seems to be McClellin and H. Smith.

Seriously? Gronkowski/Hernandez/Fleener would be scary, but its not gonna happen.

Razor
04-26-2012, 10:02 AM
Seriously? Gronkowski/Hernandez/Fleener would be scary, but its not gonna happen.

I doubt it'd happen, but I wouldn't be too upset were it to happen depending on the players available at the time. I have all the confidence in the world that Scar can teach Fleener to block and having TEs like that would be bitching!

cmarq83
04-26-2012, 10:03 AM
Nolan Nawrocki has us taking Fleener at 31. I'm actually alright with that should we be unable to trade out. Other than that the usual picks for NE seems to be McClellin and H. Smith.

Why would you be ok with that? Literally every other position we have sans QB makes more sense to draft. We have everything we could possibly need at the TE position right now. We have the superhuman (Gronk), the WR type guy (Hernandez), and the blocker (Fells) what does Fleener bring to make us better? Maybe I could see us going for someone like Orsen Charles in the 4th for the value, and as insurance in case Hernandez gets hurt. However, spending a 1st at one of our most solid positions, making us carry 4 TE's and bypassing a legitimate shot to make us better doesn't make any sense to me.

Razor
04-26-2012, 10:11 AM
Why would you be ok with that? Literally every other position we have sans QB makes more sense to draft. We have everything we could possibly need at the TE position right now. We have the superhuman (Gronk), the WR type guy (Hernandez), and the blocker (Fells) what does Fleener bring to make us better? Maybe I could see us going for someone like Orsen Charles in the 4th for the value, and as insurance in case Hernandez gets hurt. However, spending a 1st at one of our most solid positions, making us carry 4 TE's and bypassing a legitimate shot to make us better doesn't make any sense to me.

I don't like the thought of using the draft to address needs only. If you have a chance to improve a position you do that. I think it's pretty close to how BB feels as well. You address needs and improve depth in FA which gives you lots of flexibility in the draft. Do I think we'd take Fleener? Of course not. I think we're going to trade out and that's what I'm hoping for. But Fleener would add a lot to the offense which is another way of "improving" our defense.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 10:15 AM
What cmarq said; in other mock news someone posted a link to Gosselin's (http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/col...#ssStory551845)mock. He has taking Upshaw and Smith. I was under the impression he no longer was doing mocks. edit: not gosselin's mock.

cross post with razor: I agree in principal, but adding a tight end like that is as Lombardi would say is "collecting talent" I don't think it helps the team as a whole (I was under the impression Nawrocki was mocking a trade of some sort.

cmarq83
04-26-2012, 10:32 AM
I don't like the thought of using the draft to address needs only. If you have a chance to improve a position you do that. I think it's pretty close to how BB feels as well. You address needs and improve depth in FA which gives you lots of flexibility in the draft. Do I think we'd take Fleener? Of course not. I think we're going to trade out and that's what I'm hoping for. But Fleener would add a lot to the offense which is another way of "improving" our defense.

How much does it really improve the position though? Do you legitimately feel like Fleener is going to come in and take away reps from Gronk or Hernandez? I don't think that is a particularly realistic expectation. That leaves him in 3 TE sets, which aren't run all that often, and in many cases I'd think that BB would prefer Fells because of his blocking ability. You might be able to split Hernandez out wide and play Fleener in 2TE sets, but any way you slice it he's looking at most at 30% of offensive snaps. That isn't first round material. The only reason you'd take someone in a situation like ours is if he's a can't miss prospect who is an upgrade over everyone you have. If Fleener was Gronk 2.0 then yes go for it, but Fleener is really just an above average TE prospect with average blocking, and athleticism that up until the combine was questioned.

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 11:53 AM
last year's prospect that the pats were hot for was cam jordan. they had the chance to get him, but didnt. false rumor.

this year it seems like the two hot prospects for us are chandler jones and trumaine johnson. we would have to move up to get jones, and we could probably reach on johnson in the first. is this the year the rumors are true?

we shall see

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 01:13 PM
names being thrown out for a possible trade up to 12: chandler jones, mark barron, and local boy luke kuechly

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 01:38 PM
names being thrown out for a possible trade up to 12: chandler jones, mark barron, and local boy luke kuechly

Kuechly isn't a name I've associated with the Pats at all.
As for the trade up ... doesn't this happen every year? We're always rumored to be moving up? I'd be really surprised.

Kuechly, Curry and some random DB wouldn't be a bad haul though :banana:

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 01:44 PM
Kuechly isn't a name I've associated with the Pats at all.
As for the trade up ... doesn't this happen every year? We're always rumored to be moving up? I'd be really surprised.

Kuechly, Curry and some random DB wouldn't be a bad haul though :banana:

he'd be a great fit in our 4-2-5 defense

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 01:46 PM
What a weird thing. I leave for a few months and we're talking somewhat seriously about trading up. Weird.

Anywho, I've been more than out of the loop a little bit, but I have to say I'm sort of glad Chandler Jones isn't looking like a realistic possibility. I did some extremely preliminary work on him before he rose up the way he did and liked what I saw. I wouldn't mind taking a shot on him in the late first round if he fell there...but moving up for him just scares me a little bit.

I like his physical profile a whole ton though. If there's one thing I've learned about defensive ends over the years, it's that guys with length and athleticism tend to figure it out more often than not. Still, the Ayers factor is pretty high there.

One thing I'm really not enjoying hearing about that may be somewhat realistic is taking Lavonte David with one of our first round picks. I like the guy as a spark plug type player in a pure 4-3...but I don't think he's a real good fit here or a real sure bet to be the type of player you get value for in the late 1st/early 2nd range. We need players who change things dramatically on defense. You can find a guy to play the type of role David would here in free agency or later in the draft.

cmarq83
04-26-2012, 02:40 PM
Kuechly would be fine by me. He's a guy who could legitimately improve every set of our defense including our base and our nickel. If we're running a 3-4 we could conceivably bump Spikes down to OLB for early downs, or in a 4-3 have Kuechly as the mike, Mayo as the Will, and Spikes as the SAM. I think it's 100% a smokescreen, but if the Pats were to ever trade up for a guy it would be a Kuechly type.

What a weird thing. I leave for a few months and we're talking somewhat seriously about trading up. Weird.

Anywho, I've been more than out of the loop a little bit, but I have to say I'm sort of glad Chandler Jones isn't looking like a realistic possibility. I did some extremely preliminary work on him before he rose up the way he did and liked what I saw. I wouldn't mind taking a shot on him in the late first round if he fell there...but moving up for him just scares me a little bit.

I like his physical profile a whole ton though. If there's one thing I've learned about defensive ends over the years, it's that guys with length and athleticism tend to figure it out more often than not. Still, the Ayers factor is pretty high there.

One thing I'm really not enjoying hearing about that may be somewhat realistic is taking Lavonte David with one of our first round picks. I like the guy as a spark plug type player in a pure 4-3...but I don't think he's a real good fit here or a real sure bet to be the type of player you get value for in the late 1st/early 2nd range. We need players who change things dramatically on defense. You can find a guy to play the type of role David would here in free agency or later in the draft.

I wouldn't be down for trading significantly up for C. Jones either. I like McClellin more on tape, but give the edge to Jones because I've learned my lesson of bypassing on physically talented DE's. I don't really dig a trade up for anyone unless it's a couple spots for Brockers or Jones, and generally prefer a trade back at 31.

I'm ok with David, Kendricks, or Wagner just not with one of the top 2 picks. We definitely could use another coverage LBer who doesn't embarrass the unit when he's out there. I just think there are other spots we could address high with better values like G, DB, or WR with the first round picks.

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 02:47 PM
I wouldn't mind Kendricks. I've always been pretty high on him. Great functional strength, a good understanding of leverage, and can do a whole ton of different things. Always liked the guy, even before the impressive 40 time. I'm not sure how much he helps us in coverage though. Not the most fluid guy in the world.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 02:56 PM
Welcome back EE! :beers:

On the trade up: StaceyDales ‏ @StaceyDales Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Pats tell me there has been NO discussion with seattle about the 12th pick. Not with Coach, Caserio, or anyone else.
Retweeted by Michael Lombardi

Dueling NFLN reporters apparently.

Not too much longer now. From every thing I've read, there's something to not like about many of the prospects. Should make for many surprises (and a long night for those waiting for the end of the round picks.)

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 03:03 PM
I just can't buy us trading up like that. I would laugh pretty hard if we do though, especially for a projection player like Chandler Jones.

One thing I have liked that's materialized in my absence is the Trumaine Johnson talk. Sounds like we may talk him earlier than we should, but I'm sick for tall press corners. Doesn't hurt that he projects pretty well for safety either.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 03:10 PM
Johnson's scouting notes (if accurate) don't sound promising though. Entitlement attitude, etc. A guy like that doesn't sound like he would fare well here (see Chad Jackson.)

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 03:17 PM
The character element does scare me more than a little bit, yeah. We didn't seem all that eager to take Jimmy Smith last year in spite of him being a tick or two above Dowling as a prospect, so that certainly could play a factor. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, but I haven't heard a whole lot of CONCRETE stuff either way on his football character. Certainly don't like the arrest(which was quite ugly by the sounds of it), but I do like the skill set quite a bit.

...but in the end, drafting a defensive back still scares the ever living **** out of me. At least we've progressed from trying to amass an army of nickel corners.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 03:27 PM
Here (http://cache.profootballweekly.com/prospects/player/trumaine-johnson-2/)is where I found some notes.

I have DB bust syndrome myself. 14, 14 DBs drafted during the BB era. Erg.

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 03:46 PM
i would love to trade up to 15, right in front of the NYJ, and snag a pass rusher they were having an eye on. that would be awesome, but highly unlikely

TNPatsFan
04-26-2012, 05:55 PM
Every year there are players that I feel like no matter what else the Pats do, I'd be happy if they can just get at least one of these handful of guys. These are those guys for me this year (in no particular order):

Dont'a Hightower
Devon Still
Jerel Worthy
Michael Brockers
Vinny Curry
Brandon Boykin
Juron Criner
Any of the Arkansas WR's
Stephen Hill
Dre Kirkpatrick
Andre Branch

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 06:46 PM
draft time guys, lets try to keep all the draft chatter here in this thread!

Jvig43
04-26-2012, 07:18 PM
Some pretty big surprises in the first three picks.

cmarq83
04-26-2012, 07:24 PM
Richardson going to the Browns kills my dream of the Jets trading up for him.

*Not like it was a surprise but still*

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 07:47 PM
Well, we know we aren't trading up for Mark Barron now at least.

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 07:54 PM
welcome to the afc east, ryan tannehill.

cmarq83
04-26-2012, 07:57 PM
Wish Kuechly the best of luck in Carolina. Beason and him are going to be something to watch.

Razor
04-26-2012, 07:59 PM
Well, we know we aren't trading up for Mark Barron now at least.

We can still get Chandler Jones. Do it, BB. Although he's probably more inclined to trade up for Brockers.

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 07:59 PM
Panthers take Kuechly. Looks like the Bills might take a corner. It's not going to happen, but I would be thrilled if we managed to land one Cox, Brockers, or Poe.

cmarq83
04-26-2012, 08:02 PM
Panthers take Kuechly. Looks like the Bills might take a corner. It's not going to happen, but I would be thrilled if we managed to land one Cox, Brockers, or Poe.

With the Dallas trade up it's becoming more likely that one of them could fall

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 08:05 PM
Predictable, but sucks a little bit. Drives up Brockers and Cox's value...and now it looks like Cox is gone. Damn.

cmarq83
04-26-2012, 08:12 PM
I stand corrected

cmarq83
04-26-2012, 08:28 PM
Panthers take Kuechly. Looks like the Bills might take a corner. It's not going to happen, but I would be thrilled if we managed to land one Cox, Brockers, or Poe.

And that is that

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 08:28 PM
****. Well, bring on undersized linebackers and mediocre nickelbacks then :/

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 08:38 PM
lmao @ bruce irvin at 15

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 08:39 PM
Holy incredible reach Batman.
Jets get their choice of edge rushers. Wow.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 08:40 PM
Freaking Bengals are going to land Decastro. Two years in a row draft is breaking perfectly for them.

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 08:43 PM
I'm alright with the Jets taking Coples. I was never particularly enamored and I'm not sure he's a great fit for what they're going to be asking him to do.

What's the opinion here on taking McClellin or Mercilus if they're there?

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 08:45 PM
Thank you NY.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 08:46 PM
I'm alright with the Jets taking Coples. I was never particularly enamored and I'm not sure he's a great fit for what they're going to be asking him to do.

What's the opinion here on taking McClellin or Mercilus if they're there?

McClellin for me; one year wonders (Mercilus) scare me - his instincts seemed lacking too.

cmarq83
04-26-2012, 08:49 PM
McClellin for me; one year wonders (Mercilus) scare me - his instincts seemed lacking too.

I 2nd this, I've been a McClellin fan for months. I'd be just ok with Mercilus.

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 08:49 PM
McClellin for me; one year wonders (Mercilus) scare me - his instincts seemed lacking too.

I would be open to taking either of them if they last. Mercilus does have some bust potential, but the guy has a great motor and seems like he would benefit from standing up. Both of them fit in that Clay Matthews/Brooks Reed archetype I fall for though.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 08:52 PM
All those O lineman are still on the board so we may well get a pass rusher after all. Couples in a dysfunctional locker room should be interesting ....

And there goes Kirkpatrick.

If Decastro gets past 20, anyone want to trade up for him? What a monster line we would have.

Edit: Chicago pick is going to be interesting. Emery is the GM, comes from BB/Pioli tree. Wonder if he trades down? :)

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 08:59 PM
:tantrum: :crybaby:

That's for McClellin.

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 08:59 PM
Well, there goes the run on edge rushers. ****.

TNPatsFan
04-26-2012, 09:00 PM
Bears and Titans were the two teams who supposedly liked Chandler Jones. Bears just took McClellan. Jones could drop to the Pats if they like him as much as what we heard.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 09:01 PM
TRADE!!!! :banana:

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:01 PM
Trade up. Here comes Jones. BB gets his boner fulfilled.

Jvig43
04-26-2012, 09:03 PM
WE GOT A PASS RUSHER. Yeaaaaaaah

cmarq83
04-26-2012, 09:03 PM
Chandler MF Jones!!!!!!

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 09:04 PM
Hightower would be cool. So would Jones. Even Decastro. (I'm easy.)

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:04 PM
Don't jinx it. As much as I have mixed feelings about that(although not so much in that spot), we're not above doing something ass backwards ********.

FlyingElvis
04-26-2012, 09:04 PM
gonna be hightower . . .

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 09:05 PM
Cool. Think it will take some time but in a couple years has Tuck type potential. Yay rookie salary pool.

Jvig43
04-26-2012, 09:06 PM
So what did we trade to move up this far?

FlyingElvis
04-26-2012, 09:06 PM
damn commercial breaks

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 09:06 PM
A 3rd. Not bad.

BradysKnee
04-26-2012, 09:08 PM
Pass rusher please. Maybe a WR though.

TNPatsFan
04-26-2012, 09:09 PM
I'll be happy with either Hightower or Jones. I don't want Mercilus though.

nepg
04-26-2012, 09:09 PM
HOLY **** the Pats traded up! What world is this?

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 09:09 PM
I'm on Twitter so I know the pick. Sorry guys.

FlyingElvis
04-26-2012, 09:09 PM
the big question is . . . how are they getting the names on the jerseys?

nepg
04-26-2012, 09:11 PM
Haha. Chandler Jones. Mixed, but I potentially love it.

nepg
04-26-2012, 09:12 PM
the big question is . . . how are they getting the names on the jerseys?
Just have a **** load of them behind the curtain? Unused go to Africa or just back to Nike and they'll rip the name off.

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:12 PM
Honestly, I'll take it. Upside and length from a pass rusher is appreciated at this point. It's not ideal for me after years and years of pining for it, but it's something at least.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 09:13 PM
A pass rusher. A real life pass rusher. I don't know how to react.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 09:14 PM
the big question is . . . how are they getting the names on the jerseys?

They have a press machine on site.

TNPatsFan
04-26-2012, 09:14 PM
Yeah. He wouldn't have been my first choice, but he's a very interesting player. Has a lot of potential to be great. Watching him on video I was impressed with how well he plays in space, and how he doesn't seem to overrun plays.

And even better, we still have another pick coming up. I'd love to see them take another one of these guys, specifically Vinny Curry.

Razor
04-26-2012, 09:15 PM
Woo-*******-hoo!!! I love it!! Finally we did something right!

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 09:15 PM
its about time we got a pass rusher!!!

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:16 PM
It's been six years coming. Six years. Think about that.

Even if Jones ends up being a disappointment, it's better than taking corners who last three years.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 09:17 PM
Grats Razor you've been "pounding the desk" for Jones since the get go.
If we can't trade 31 I have no idea who the pick will be. Jenkins warts and all would really upgrade this defense.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 09:17 PM
It's been six years coming. Six years. Think about that.

Even if Jones ends up being a disappointment, it's better than taking corners who last three years.

Amen brother.

FlyingElvis
04-26-2012, 09:17 PM
Seriously, after years of begging for some kind of blue chip potential, I'm happy with the pick. Jones meets all the BB prereqs for the elephant spot. Let's hope he can be our next Willie Mac.

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:18 PM
Traded up again. What. The. Fu.ck.

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 09:18 PM
Traded up again. What. The. Fu.ck.

what is going on?????

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 09:19 PM
Holy crap we traded again.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 09:20 PM
Hightower or Decastro.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 09:21 PM
:banana: :gtfo: :freakout: :frog: :parrot: :gasp:

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:21 PM
Harrison Smith reach?

cmarq83
04-26-2012, 09:22 PM
For Who????

This is so unlike them

FlyingElvis
04-26-2012, 09:22 PM
I've had Hightower as a NE pick for a while, so it's pretty clear that won't happen. lol

Jvig43
04-26-2012, 09:23 PM
Holy balls what? And we still have our pick?

TNPatsFan
04-26-2012, 09:24 PM
It's Hightower. I love it! I don't care how many ILB's they have. Hightower can play all over the place.. AND he can rush the passer.

FlyingElvis
04-26-2012, 09:24 PM
I knew I should have picked him for the mock challenge!

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:24 PM
This is all a lot to handle.

BradysKnee
04-26-2012, 09:24 PM
Could we be going 4-3/

cmarq83
04-26-2012, 09:24 PM
Donte hightower, meh

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 09:25 PM
Stoked. Really Stoked. Hightower can play.

Razor
04-26-2012, 09:25 PM
Could we be going 4-3/

I hope so. Hightower can play SLB with Spike at MLB and Mayo at WLB. We just need another pass rusher and a safety and we're looking much improved on defense.

FlyingElvis
04-26-2012, 09:26 PM
I love it, too. Everything about him screamed BB pick. Multiple spots, 4 years, team captain. Spikes / Mayo / Hightower basically threatening from everywhere along the front should be pretty beastly.

I'm shell shocked, though. I can't believe NE moved up twice.


:freakout: :freakout: :freakout: :freakout:

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 09:26 PM
we are def moving towards a 4-3

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:27 PM
I don't really see how this makes us that much better. Hightower isn't a bad player, but he does a lot of the same things Spikes does(upgrading some of them). Not a big fan of the move.

TNPatsFan
04-26-2012, 09:27 PM
Still have both second round picks too. They'll probably trade at least one of them down. But if they could get another pass rusher like Curry, that would be sweet. Add in a DB or DT.

BradysKnee
04-26-2012, 09:28 PM
I don't really see how this makes us that much better. Hightower isn't a bad player, but he does a lot of the same things Spikes does(upgrading some of them). Not a big fan of the move.

Good to have you back lol.

nepg
04-26-2012, 09:28 PM
we are def moving towards a 4-3
Why?

They drafted the type of guy Belichick has been looking for since they dumped McGinnest and a guy who can play on the other side and pretty much anywhere on the front 7 outside of NT....

The versatility of both of those guys being able to drop down to play DE in nickel packages is just a bonus.

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:31 PM
Yeah, I don't think either of these moves necessarily means a move to a pure 4-3 either.

nepg
04-26-2012, 09:31 PM
I don't really see how this makes us that much better. Hightower isn't a bad player, but he does a lot of the same things Spikes does(upgrading some of them). Not a big fan of the move.
I haven't really understood the Hightower thing either, but he's so versatile. He can be a Mike Vrabel type for the Pats.

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 09:33 PM
I'm really happy. Hightower is an impact defensive player (potentially, of course) and that's what we need. If he's not mentioned as a potential DROY (ok I know fan boy) I'll cut my hair (which I haven't cut in five years.)

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:35 PM
I haven't really understood the Hightower thing either, but he's so versatile. He can be a Mike Vrabel type for the Pats.

Mmm. He can do a lot of things, but I'm not sure he can do them as well as Vrabel could....and as I said, I think he cannibalizes some of the things Spikes does right now too. Spikes has run hot and cold and has never developed into the leader we thought we were getting, but he's a perfectly serviceable player in the niche he's in presently. He's upgradable, but I'm not sure it's really worth the cost.

...I think I would have preferred Upshaw.

BradysKnee
04-26-2012, 09:38 PM
Mmm. He can do a lot of things, but I'm not sure he can do them as well as Vrabel could....and as I said, I think he cannibalizes some of the things Spikes does right now too. Spikes has run hot and cold and has never developed into the leader we thought we were getting, but he's a perfectly serviceable player in the niche he's in presently. He's upgradable, but I'm not sure it's really worth the cost.

...I think I would have preferred Upshaw.

I'll take it, the 4th isn't bad.

Upshaw scares me a bit, I'll be honest, if we play primary 3-4 isn't an amazing pick, but if we 4-3 and use hightower spikes mayo, im a fan.

nepg
04-26-2012, 09:40 PM
I do like Upshaw, but I think (and I think this is Belichick's mindset as well) that Hightower can do the things Upshaw does except better as a pro. He's bigger and just seems like a more consistent player.

nepg
04-26-2012, 09:41 PM
I'll take it, the 4th isn't bad.

Upshaw scares me a bit, I'll be honest, if we play primary 3-4 isn't an amazing pick, but if we 4-3 and use hightower spikes mayo, im a fan.
I hate those 3 in a 4-3. They don't bring enough as a group especially when the Pats' weakness has been their pass defense.

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:42 PM
I just didn't really see a whole ton of issues we had last year that Hightower helps with. Again, not hard to upgrade what we had...but was it worth it to versus to against a defensive linemen or back? Those are your real issues right there. I would have been content sitting with the guys we had and finding someone to plug in for coverage situations later.

I don't know. I'm not a big Hightower guy overall either. Always thought he was a bit overrated. I don't see him being an impact player.

Nalej
04-26-2012, 09:42 PM
I like the first two picks. C.Jones @ OLB and Hightower and anywhere along the LBs. He can play them all. He's a joker. Probably players of Ninko

Bigburt63
04-26-2012, 09:43 PM
Another Pick At 31?!

BradysKnee
04-26-2012, 09:44 PM
I hate those 3 in a 4-3. They don't bring enough as a group especially when the Pats' weakness has been their pass defense.

Disagree. They're all competent pass rushers and you can bring some heat from any spot. We need a safety in rd 2 however.

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:45 PM
Minnesota just ****** us. Honestly, would have preferred trading up for Smith over Hightower.

BradysKnee
04-26-2012, 09:46 PM
Minnesota just ****** us. We really needed that guy.

They sure did. My ass hurts.

Bigburt63
04-26-2012, 09:46 PM
nvm, think they didn't update the ticker.

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 09:46 PM
Minnesota just ****** us. Honestly, would have preferred trading up for Smith over Hightower.

hes a reach in that spot anyway. Hes a mid second round pick in most years

Jvig43
04-26-2012, 09:47 PM
**** you Minnesota, **** you.

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:47 PM
hes a reach in that spot anyway. Hes a mid second round pick in most years

I feel the same way about Hightower haha....and he's filling a role we don't need as badly.

BradysKnee
04-26-2012, 09:47 PM
Could take Jenkins and keep Mccourty at safety.

nepg
04-26-2012, 09:48 PM
Meh... I like Markelle Martin as the #2 S still.

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:48 PM
I suppose we still have Trumaine Johnson on the board too. As I mentioned earlier, I really like the skillset in spite of the character concerns. Good projection player at either spot, but especially at safety.

FlyingElvis
04-26-2012, 09:49 PM
Iloka . . . rangy mofo and if he doesn't look worth it BB can pick from a better crop next year.

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 09:50 PM
weird we only have 2 picks left lol..... one NEEDs to be secondary help haha

TNPatsFan
04-26-2012, 09:50 PM
Harrison Smith is a reach in round 1. I'm glad the Vikings took him instead of us. Frankly this draft only has three draftable safeties and two of them have already been taken. I'm glad the Pats aren't reaching for them just to fill a need.

I have to admit I'm surprised they didn't go with a big DL with one of those two picks, but they've still got two second rounders.

nepg
04-26-2012, 09:52 PM
WR and S should be the picks in Round 2. Lots of options still.

Razor
04-26-2012, 09:55 PM
Pretty much a perfect first round. Now I want Randle and Brandon Taylor tomorrow and we're all set.

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:56 PM
WR and S should be the picks in Round 2. Lots of options still.

I still want a wide receiver(even with the moves we've made), but I have a hard time buying it in the second round. If we can manage to trade down there's some intriguing possibilities for that position that are projected to be available in the fourth round or so.

...I would also like to get my hands on a guy who can play 3-4 DE still. Seems weird not having many picks.

Nalej
04-26-2012, 09:57 PM
A.Jeffery/S.Hill/R.Rueben and B.Taylor/M.Martin/T.Johnson

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 09:59 PM
Don't forget, we still should find a way to snag someone with kick return value too. Somehow anyway. Doesn't look like we're going to get one with a draft pick.

Nalej
04-26-2012, 10:00 PM
Not unless we take J.Adams in the 2nd. I doubt we go CB but B.Boykins would fill that void

Blackluck
04-26-2012, 10:03 PM
Janoris Jenkins? D.M. to FS? Need a DL too. I suspect we'll be trading down some tomorrow.

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 10:07 PM
we might be trading some players tomorrow for draft picks..... ron brace anyone? jermaine cunningham?

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 10:09 PM
If I'm a GM, I'm offering some shoelaces and dollar menu fastfood items for those two. Can't see them fetching anything when GM's that are possibly interested could pick them up for nothing in a few months.

FlyingElvis
04-26-2012, 10:09 PM
we might be trading some players tomorrow for draft picks..... ron brace anyone? jermaine cunningham?

We'd be lucky to get a ham sandwich and a bag of chips for either of them.

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 10:13 PM
The more I think about it, the more I'm nervous about putting Hightower and Spikes on the field at the same time. Spikes has been better than I expected in coverage, but I don't see how that doesn't become even more of a liability now.

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 10:18 PM
hightower is underrated as a pass rusher too. he can do it. hes going to be very versatile

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 10:25 PM
Heard similar things about Spikes that never materialized/don't look like they're going to. Not convinced.

Nalej
04-26-2012, 10:33 PM
Spikes is a great blitzer. Not sure what you mean. He may not get sacks but he disrupts everything in the backfield. I love it when he's on the field.
If only he could stay healthy, unsuspended.

J255979-11nine
04-26-2012, 10:33 PM
I'm really hoping we go Iloka in the 2nd and trade the additional 2nd for a few more mid rounders.

Nalej
04-26-2012, 10:34 PM
We'd be lucky to get a ham sandwich and a bag of chips for either of them.

Pretty much this. What about.... WES WELKER?! (Wait, he hasn't signed... so we can't trade him?)

ElectricEye
04-26-2012, 10:41 PM
Spikes is a great blitzer. Not sure what you mean. He may not get sacks but he disrupts everything in the backfield.

I wouldn't agree with that. I haven't seen him do much that I would call disruptive against the passing game on a regular basis.

I'm really hoping we go Iloka in the 2nd and trade the additional 2nd for a few more mid rounders.
God, I hope not. We would be leading the league in guys who lack fluidity.

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 10:51 PM
who are the guys we target tomorrow? trumaine johnson, janoris jenkins, brandon taylor come to mind..... we will trade down at some point... but you got to think secondary help will be the emphasis tomorrow

proshoota25
04-26-2012, 10:58 PM
todd mcshay on hightower's pass rush ability:

"And he can get after the quarterback. That's one thing we saw this past year. He doesn't have explosive burst off the edge, but has some quickness to power, he used his hands better than expected and I think he showed this past year when he's healthy with the knee injury behind him, and the fact that he was confident in that knee, that he can get off the blocks, that he can go outside the tackle box when playing the run from left to right."

i know not many are fans of mcshay but he watches alot more than any of us ever would haha

Jvig43
04-26-2012, 11:33 PM
I would be very happy if we got Jenikins in the second, I feel like that would be great value.

TNPatsFan
04-26-2012, 11:44 PM
I doubt Jenkins is even on the Pats board.

There are other DB's that can help. Boykin is also a great return man that could help fill that need as well as being an extra slot corner.

I'd like to see them get a big DL like Still, Worthy, or Thompson. And I'd really love to come away with one of the many good WR's that are still left.

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 12:29 AM
I went back and watched some games on Chandler Jones. I've been away from this stuff for quite a bit, so keep that in mind...but my impressions are pretty much in line with the preliminary stuff I looked at when he was thought to be a third round type value/guy to look for in the future. Plays with inconsistent pad level, doesn't have a wide variety of pass rush moves to make use of those long arms, doesn't seem to run the arc well and can be caught off balance when he tries(ties into leverage and pad level). The thing I don't like the most is the lack of finishing burst though. As it stands right now, many of the things that he doesn't do well are very coachable and even project to be pluses in the future because of his body type. That one I'm not so sure about. It's all about finishing in a hurry and I'm not sure Jones is that type of guy.

At the end of the day, we've been asking for a front seven player with upside for years now and Jones finally fills that role...but I'm not all that impressed with him relative to guys we've passed on in years past. Curious to see what we do with him position-wise too. He's obviously best suited as a pure 4-3 DE, but where do we play him in 3-4 looks? Doesn't seem like a natural fit at either spot. Not sure how he would be as a two gapper even if he did manage to get up to 280, even situationally. Not fluid enough to play in space on a regular effective basis either, but I think he's a little bit better in that area than he's perhaps given credit for(from the 3 games I've seen so far) in the majority of scouting reports/impressions of him.

So yeah, I can see bits and pieces of the way he rose up boards(but most of them seem to be reasons that don't apply to what we like to do, curiously enough)...but I'm not entirely sure that it was as organic a thing as you would like. Might be a bit of an unpopular opinion, but I think I would have preferred to nab someone who is a little more active like Mercilus or McClellin(slightly less unpopular).

Admittedly, Jones may be one of those players I just don't really get. One of the things I've gotten on the team about over the course of the past few years is the unwillingness to take on players with tools and develop them(except wide receivers, which they might be better of stopping actually haha). But for me, it's really hard to see where the road leads to at the end for Jones.

descendency
04-27-2012, 12:56 AM
I don't really see how this makes us that much better. Hightower isn't a bad player, but he does a lot of the same things Spikes does(upgrading some of them). Not a big fan of the move.

He's coming in to play the Ninkovich role.

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 01:09 AM
He's coming in to play the Ninkovich role.

More confident in Hightower being the better overall player and he still has some upside...but there are things Ninkovich does better than Hightower that he will likely continue to do better at(things that are arguably more valuable to the group as it's presently constituted too). It's not a complete and total upgrade. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't view Hightower as an elite linebacker so much as an above average one.

Again, I don't feel like we got significantly better with this move and would have rather addressed more pressing areas. Just doesn't seem to compliment what we already have that well. In a vacuum, the pick is slightly better, but I can't really justify moving up to take him with all that said.

Matthew Jones
04-27-2012, 02:10 AM
I'm excited about Chandler Jones and Dont'a Hightower. The first round couldn't have gone any better (except that New England only has two more picks in the entire draft at this point.) Defense of the future:

LE: Fanene

UT: Love

NT: Wilfork

RE: Jones

WLB: Mayo

MLB: Spikes

SLB: Hightower

LCB: McCourty

FS: Gregory

SS: Chung

RCB: Dowling

I'd like to see New England trade down a little bit to accumulate some mid and late-round picks and focus on the defensive line and defensive backs.

Razor
04-27-2012, 03:35 AM
Is it just me or does Hightower seem too talkative for BB's liking? I'm sure BB will straighten him out lol

I really love our first round and I can't wait to see what happens in the second. It could really go in all directions but I hope we take a look on one of the following players:

Randle
Boykin
Taylor
Curry
Silatolu
Konz
Hosley

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 06:49 AM
My thoughts on the first round.

I have to like the C. Jones pickup just for the sheer fact that it goes against everything we've done and failed at in the past. We traded up for a raw toolsy prospect on defense, who might actually be able to rush the passer in a few years. I guess the million dollar question for right now is what he can do to contribute right away? I think he'll be a rotation player with Fanene for most of the year. He's pretty good at setting the edge, but the pass rush game isn't there yet. Still in 2-3 years he he could easily be the 2nd best player on defense.

I sensed the Hightower pick was going to happen about a month ago. This pick is classic BB. A huge guy who basically fits our defensive system of putting a hat on a hat. It's a numbers game, and Hightower really gives you an edge on the first 2 downs. Goaline formations should be downright stout with Deaderick, Wilfork, Love, Mayo, Hightower, and Spikes. However, I don't see him doing all that much to improve the real problem with our defense which is Pass defense. I like Spikes's instincts in coverage more, and Hightower just seems incredibly lumbering to me. I would much rather have stayed put and picked Jenkins or even Hill, but such is life. I'm pretty sure Hightower will be a productive guy in our scheme regardless though.

Can't wait for day 2. If they could somehow come away with Jared Crick and Janoris Jenkins I'd be a very happy man.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 07:27 AM
Also, I still think a smaller quicker ILB type like David, Kendricks, or Wagner could be in play today. It would be very typical BB to double up if he thinks the value is right.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 07:30 AM
I'm excited about Chandler Jones and Dont'a Hightower. The first round couldn't have gone any better (except that New England only has two more picks in the entire draft at this point.) Defense of the future:

LE: Fanene

UT: Love

NT: Wilfork

RE: Jones

WLB: Mayo

MLB: Spikes

SLB: Hightower

LCB: McCourty

FS: Gregory

SS: Chung

RCB: Dowling

I'd like to see New England trade down a little bit to accumulate some mid and late-round picks and focus on the defensive line and defensive backs.

That unit still needs an X Factor in the worst way, but I feel like we're getting more and more legitimate NFL starters each day. Dowling, Hightower, Gregory, and Jones should help right away next year.

nepg
04-27-2012, 07:52 AM
You guys... C'mon. People here have been saying "looks like they're switching to a 4-3" for 3 years now.

The two picks they made don't mean anything regarding a 4-3. Look a lot more like 3-4 players, especially in Belichick's defense. The only question is whether they're looking at Jones as more of an OLB or a 5-Tech. As a 5-tech he could be the McGinnest/Hali-type whereas Hightower will move all around on that defense. For most teams, he would have been a straight up ILB, but for the Pats, he's a primary OLB and a Nickel DE.

LOOK! Belichick just did two things he doesn't do. Traded up (TWICE!) and took an OLB (TWICE!). We should be partying in the streets right now.

Nalej
04-27-2012, 08:27 AM
I agree with nepg. These guys both look like 34 players.
Jones as an OLB and Hightower as a guy that can play every LB position and possibly nickel DE.

Blackluck
04-27-2012, 08:27 AM
You guys... C'mon. People here have been saying "looks like they're switching to a 4-3" for 3 years now.

The two picks they made don't mean anything regarding a 4-3. Look a lot more like 3-4 players, especially in Belichick's defense. The only question is whether they're looking at Jones as more of an OLB or a 5-Tech. As a 5-tech he could be the McGinnest/Hali-type whereas Hightower will move all around on that defense. For most teams, he would have been a straight up ILB, but for the Pats, he's a primary OLB and a Nickel DE.

LOOK! Belichick just did two things he doesn't do. Traded up (TWICE!) and took an OLB (TWICE!). We should be partying in the streets right now.

No kidding :happy: We didn't take some fail defensive back so it's all good. Going to be a little weird not having two 1's and two 2's next year but I'll live. I think Hightower is being undervalued. Smart, instinctive football players don't need to run 4.5 to stay on the field. Every time I watched a Steeler game with their intimidating looking linebackers I always thought why can't we have one of those? And now we do. While his primary role won't be a pass rusher I'm thinking he's going to give us some very good situational inside pressure. He's got great closing speed. I think he'll have versatility to play inside or out.

For Jones I think he'll take more time to develop but initially he'll be an edge rusher. He's not the most fluid guy so I can't see him playing in space often but eventually he looks to be that 'elephant' role.

For the second round I'd like to pick up a 3rd to get a returner type and/or a developmental safety, maybe Martin. But I also tend to agree with Cmarq and I wouldn't be surprised to see a cover LB. Then again another DB and some DL depth too. Not enough picks left lol.

Edit: Just wanted to add that Pitt got the steal of the draft. DeCastro at 24. That's a major wow. I'm super shocked Chicago or even Cleveland didn't take him.

FlyingElvis
04-27-2012, 09:22 AM
I'm even happier with the results after a full night to chew on the info. Honestly, it's very difficult to be unhappy with a round one where we not only use our picks, we move UP to use them. Even more astounding is we use them on the two areas we've identified as huge needs for several years running. OLB + Elephant. I have no doubts that Jones will be that role, at this point.

Neither guy is a clear cut blue chip that is a lock to be a stud at their respective spot, but we picked in the 20s. Nobody fits that bill in the 20s.

Wootylicous
04-27-2012, 09:28 AM
I love our picks! Jones and Hightower will give our D some versatility and flexibility! Not sure where Hightower will play with Mayo and Spikes inside though

We will probably trade one of our 2nd for a first next year or something like that!

Matthew Jones
04-27-2012, 09:56 AM
Here are some guys who could make sense for the Patriots in the second round:

WR T.Y. Hilton, Florida International
WR Mohamed Sanu, Rutgers*
DT Kendall Reyes, Connecticut
DE Courtney Upshaw, Alabama
CB Brandon Boykin, Georgia
CB Janoris Jenkins, North Alabama
CB Josh Robinson, Central Florida*
SS Brandon Taylor, Louisiana St.

Josh Robinson is my most likely Patriots pick; I believe one of our area scouts or assistant coaches recruited him to Central Florida and Robinson posted one of the top cone drills of any defensive back at the Combine.

Matthew Jones
04-27-2012, 10:08 AM
I can't wait for New England's picks to be announced by Troy M.F. Brown today!

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 10:09 AM
I would hate it if we somehow ended up with Upshaw today. Size is a great thing to have, but at a point you can have too much size and not enough athleticism. I don't see how you could ever play Spikes, Upshaw, and Hightower at the same time. We need to do something to improve our pass defense THIS YEAR, that's why I want either a CB, pass rushing DT (Wolfe or Crick would do at the end of the 2nd), Safety like Trumaine Johnson or Brandon Taylor, or a coverage LB for nickel sets.

If we come away with an interior lineman like Konz or Silatolu I'd be ok with that as well. Ditto for a WR with deep speed/return ability or Broyles.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 10:10 AM
I can't wait for New England's picks to be announced by Troy M.F. Brown today!

Love that guy, I went on youtube and watched his and David Givens's highlight reels last night before the draft. 2 of my favorite SB era Patriots.

Nalej
04-27-2012, 10:34 AM
Here are some guys who could make sense for the Patriots in the second round:

WR T.Y. Hilton, Florida International
WR Mohamed Sanu, Rutgers*
DT Kendall Reyes, Connecticut
DE Courtney Upshaw, Alabama
CB Brandon Boykin, Georgia
CB Janoris Jenkins, North Alabama
CB Josh Robinson, Central Florida*
SS Brandon Taylor, Louisiana St.

Josh Robinson is my most likely Patriots pick; I believe one of our area scouts or assistant coaches recruited him to Central Florida and Robinson posted one of the top cone drills of any defensive back at the Combine.

I hope it's a S and DE but I'll be happy with Sanu if he dropped to us. A big bodied WR would be nice.

Don Vito
04-27-2012, 10:48 AM
I want Jenkins, Robinson, Boykin, or Taylor. Since we addressed LB I would now be OK with us taking a DB. If Upshaw is available I would be completely OK with it.

kennyb
04-27-2012, 11:56 AM
Josh Robinson looks impressive, never enough CBs.

I'm hoping they pick up a DL like DaJohn Harris or Kheeston Randall in the 4th or 5th. Or Malik Jackson.

I guess they'll trade down at least once.

Interesting that Alshon Jeffrey is still there...very tantalizing pick. He's like a bigger Hernandez at worst, I think.

descendency
04-27-2012, 12:01 PM
Give me some Sanu.

Don Vito
04-27-2012, 12:06 PM
Jones and Hightower could be so versatile and project to so many schemes, that is why combined with their talent they are such great picks to me. Remember some teams even viewed Jones as a guy who could bulk up and potentially play the 5-tech. He is that long rangy athletic rusher who has a JPP like raw skill set about him, but people also think he could put on 15 or so pounds and be a Tuck type player. Hightower can play all over the field and he really could be a menace if we use him properly, which we should. We know how to move our players around and put them in good positions, but we have just lacked the talent. We just added two serious talents where we needed them.

Jvig43
04-27-2012, 12:15 PM
Jones and Hightower could be so versatile and project to so many schemes, that is why combined with their talent they are such great picks to me. Remember some teams even viewed Jones as a guy who could bulk up and potentially play the 5-tech. He is that long rangy athletic rusher who has a JPP like raw skill set about him, but people also think he could put on 15 or so pounds and be a Tuck type player. Hightower can play all over the field and he really could be a menace if we use him properly, which we should. We know how to move our players around and put them in good positions, but we have just lacked the talent. We just added two serious talents where we needed them.

This is pretty much how I feel about the picks right now (maybe I'm just overly stoked that we traded up for two pass rushers (well sort of)). I'm real excited about our line backing core as of right now. One of my buddies who just graduated from cuse texted me telling me that Jones was one of the best talents he saw on the team, and he wouldn't be surprised to see him beast for us (He's also a Denver fan so he was pretty upset about the trade). I'm excited about the potential, at the very least as people have said, we didn't trade down to take some mid round DB who will be cut in two years or just plays strictly special teams.

nepg
04-27-2012, 01:48 PM
Give me some Sanu.
**** no. That would be awful.

Blackluck
04-27-2012, 01:54 PM
Stacey Dales on NFLN reports to look for T. Johnson (whoever her source is seems to be pretty good) but the more I read on that guy the more I don't want him. In addition to the info I posted in an earlier thread I found this on another forum:

You shouldn't be a big fan of Johnson. He is a poor tackler (always goes for a big hit and rarely wraps up a ball carrier), routinely beaten down the field when in coverage, often out of position on both running and passing situations and he may have been a part of the sexual assault/rape charges on UMontana campus that has, thus far, seen the AD and head football coach get the axe. (Neither were technically fired, both contracts were not renewed.) These charges have seen 3 players dismissed and will most likely see 4 more including the starting QB.

I watched Johnson play the last 2 seasons, 6 of those games in person.

If as it's being reported we're not interested in Jenkins I don't understand why we would be interested in Johnson.

Edit: Dales also reporting NE interest in WR and OL.

Don Vito
04-27-2012, 02:29 PM
We could go in so many different directions right now, this is awesome. We may trade one of the picks away but I really feel our first round set us up to take the BPA on our board. We could take a DB, WR, OL, DL, RB, who knows. What is we took a guy like Curry or Upshaw? It could happen you never know, or maybe Fleener. So much is still available and we have two picks. This is a nice spot to be in for a team that was a play or two away from winning it all.

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 02:41 PM
So even after sleeping on it, I'm not really seeing the logic of the Hightower pick. I seem lower on him than a lot of people are talent wise and I could be off a bit there. But even if I'm off in my assessment of his abilities, I just don't see how it helps fix the issues we have in our linebacking core(which were down the list of things that needed to be tweaked). Going back and looking at some games, Hightower probably helps out the pass rush a little bit(more as a blitzer than a rusher though), but he still seems like an upscale version of Brandon Spikes...with similar deficiencies. I can't see how this doesn't further weaken us in terms of covering the backs and tight ends....which further exaggerates the issues we have on the back end. You can't lug players like that around for first and second down the way you could five years ago. Not with the ability teams have to pass and the rise of the athletic tight end. If our defense was an upcoming opponents, I would be licking my chops about what Gronk and Hernandez would be able to do to them. Granted, not everyone in the league can throw out the type of tight ends we can, but I stand by the sentiment.

The one argument I can buy for this is that it helps establish an identity for our defense...something we've been sorely lacking. I'm just not sure it's an identity that's going to work out all that well.



Josh Robinson is my most likely Patriots pick; I believe one of our area scouts or assistant coaches recruited him to Central Florida and Robinson posted one of the top cone drills of any defensive back at the Combine.
I would really like that. Robinson has some impressive film against quality receivers and the measurements to back it up.

As far as other potential targets go, it's hard to say. I would like to get someone who can help us at safety still and bigger end would be nice too. I don't really see any of the wide receivers left on the board as nice fits/worth the price assuming we stand. There's some fourth round lottery tickets I'm fond of though.

FlyingElvis
04-27-2012, 03:11 PM
Leadership will be a huge factor for Hightower, imo. We have severely lacked it and regardless of how awesome Wilfork is, he can't really provide the front 7 (and overall team defense) leadership that we need.

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 03:18 PM
I just find things like that to be inherently unpredictable(....and unknowable to an extent from our end). That's really nice when it works out, but we heard that Spikes, Chung, and a few other guys we've brought in. Shoot, every guy we bring in is a team captain in college or certainly not all that far away from that status....and yet as you said, we still seem to lack that element from our angle. The elements of team chemistry aren't something you can build artificially(or instantly for that matter) or pluck from scouting reports.

Certainly doesn't hurt that Hightower has that type of reputation, but I think that stuff is a bit overplayed.

jojo
04-27-2012, 03:20 PM
Jones and Hightower could be so versatile and project to so many schemes, that is why combined with their talent they are such great picks to me. Remember some teams even viewed Jones as a guy who could bulk up and potentially play the 5-tech. He is that long rangy athletic rusher who has a JPP like raw skill set about him, but people also think he could put on 15 or so pounds and be a Tuck type player. Hightower can play all over the field and he really could be a menace if we use him properly, which we should. We know how to move our players around and put them in good positions, but we have just lacked the talent. We just added two serious talents where we needed them.

Leadership will be a huge factor for Hightower, imo. We have severely lacked it and regardless of how awesome Wilfork is, he can't really provide the front 7 (and overall team defense) leadership that we need.

You're gonna abso-freaking-love Hightower!!

Bellichick moved around all over the place but kept his focus where it was needed the most: on improving the pass defense, pass rush 1st.

Love him or hate him it's why he's the best HC in the League.

Blackluck
04-27-2012, 03:30 PM
We could go in so many different directions right now, this is awesome. We may trade one of the picks away but I really feel our first round set us up to take the BPA on our board. We could take a DB, WR, OL, DL, RB, who knows. What is we took a guy like Curry or Upshaw? It could happen you never know, or maybe Fleener. So much is still available and we have two picks. This is a nice spot to be in for a team that was a play or two away from winning it all.

Ayup. I don't think we can go wrong with BPA regardless of position.

Nalej
04-27-2012, 03:42 PM
What I like about the Hightower pick is...
when the O sees him coming on the field... they have no idea what position he's going to play.
Is he playing inside? Outside rusher? DE? The O would have to look at all other 10 players before they can narrow down what Hightower is playing
Even with that though... we're so versatile that it's never a given.
I'm pretty excited.

Last night, I was confused at first. Didn't know where he'd play but today, I'm the opposite of EE, after sleeping on it... I love the pick

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 03:43 PM
I just find things like that to be inherently unpredictable(....and unknowable to an extent from our end). That's really nice when it works out, but we heard that Spikes, Chung, and a few other guys we've brought in. Shoot, every guy we bring in is a team captain in college or certainly not all that far away from that status....and yet as you said, we still seem to lack that element from our angle. The elements of team chemistry aren't something you can build artificially(or instantly for that matter) or pluck from scouting reports.

Certainly doesn't hurt that Hightower has that type of reputation, but I think that stuff is a bit overplayed.

This, I couldn't agree any more. Chung, McCourty, Mayo, Wilfork, most likely Carter, and Dowling. All these guys are high character guys. It's not 2009 anymore there are no leadership issues on defense.

FlyingElvis
04-27-2012, 03:43 PM
I just find things like that to be inherently unpredictable(....and unknowable to an extent from our end). That's really nice when it works out, but we heard that Spikes, Chung, and a few other guys we've brought in. Shoot, every guy we bring in is a team captain in college or certainly not all that far away from that status....and yet as you said, we still seem to lack that element from our angle. The elements of team chemistry aren't something you can build artificially(or instantly for that matter) or pluck from scouting reports.

Certainly doesn't hurt that Hightower has that type of reputation, but I think that stuff is a bit overplayed.

Spikes was a known knucklehead. Chung wasn't really touted as such, though I think he is ok in that regard. It's tough (for both, really) to grow into a leadership role while injured, but I really see more from Hightower in that regard anyway.

Mayo never had it and it seems like that's not likely to change. I think the ability to bring pressure from anywhere has been lacking and Jones + Hightower is a huge step towards fixing that. I still see Hightower as an upgrade over Ninko, which makes the Spikes portion of the discussion a little off-base.

Not that I'll argue with you, as you know I work off very limited research and generally rely on you and a few others here for breakdowns on what guys really bring to the table. I just see a much more pro ready guy with far greater athleticism and skill when compared to our current LB core that really was only Spikes & Mayo. I love the splash plays we get from Ninkovich, but our entire D was in need of help at every level.

Try to be happy? :lol:

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 04:27 PM
Spikes was a known knucklehead.

Citations;
1 (http://**************.com/scouting-report-brandon-spikes)

Aggressive player and an emotional leader.

2 (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=66482&draftyear=2010&genpos=ILB)

Named a team captain for the 2008 season and was a member of the 2008 UF Football Leadership Committee…

3 (http://www.mockingthedraft.com/2010/1/1/1229917/brandon-spikes-nfl-draft-scouting)

He's a heady middle linebacker who can lead a defense and be a coach on the field. He's a student of the game and it shows in his excellent recognition skills.

Spikes is a versatile linebacker who could handle playing in a 4-3 or a 3-4. His strength and intelligence should make him an immediate starter at the next level.





Chung wasn't really touted as such, though I think he is ok in that regard.

1 (http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=1658)

... but has good leadership skills...A very good tackler with some leadership ability

2 (http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/3/25/804308/ss-patrick-chung-oregon)

Shows solid leadership characteristics and a love of the game.

3 (http://mynorthwest.stats.com/nfldraft/players.asp?id=125246)

A true leader on the field, Chung inspires fear from opposing quarterbacks, making smart decisions and punishing blows.


Those are just some choice quotes/examples. It was part of the chatter for those two for sure, even more so with Spikes before the infamous eye poke incident.

Try to be happy? :lol:
I seem to be getting a reputation around here lately for being negative for the sake of it. I'm not sure I really understand that...and it bothers me a little bit. If there's one thing I try my hardest to do, it's to expand the discussion beyond the scope and breadth that it goes to on the base levels....as well as be objective as possible. I suppose that can come off as negativity to some, but that's not where it's coming from.

Having said that, lately I've started to disagree with the things this team does with personnel at a very basic level due to prolonged lack of results from the draft and letting HUGE holes on the defense exist for years when the other side of the ball has been championship caliber. We've made our mark on the game already, but I can honestly say that I think that the mismanagement of the defense and the unwillingness to draft potential impact players(as well as the whiffs on second rounders, actually, mostly that) has held us back from at least two Super Bowls. My tolerance for that stuff ran out a few years ago. Every year, the team makes personnel decisions that are confounding and we all just sort of convince ourselves that they were the right move. It used to be because Bill(and company) was thought of as being that much smarter than everyone else, but I really don't think I can say I feel that with conviction with regards to the draft and roster construction. I'm not going to participate in that whole thing anymore.

...but I am happy we're finally at least trying to do something about the holes on our defense. Chandler Jones and Hightower really don't get me going as much as they do some people, but the way we made the picks and the type of picks they are is a refreshing change from what we've seen lately. Particularly Jones. I don't really see the appeal, but taking a player with serious upside at a position of need is all you can ask for. Jones could bust and it would still be an alright pick simply because we swung for the fences.


But whatever haha. Too many "I's" in that for me to really feel comfortable with. Don't like making those kinds of posts, but I felt the air needed to be cleared with regards to some of that stuff.

Jvig43
04-27-2012, 04:41 PM
I mean what would you have preferred to do with our picks last night? Weve all been asking to address these positions for awhile now, and then when they do we still harp on them haha. Idk let's wait until we see what BB is planning on doing with the both of them before we start being overly critical. And who didn't see the hightower pick coming? It would have been more surprising for us to pass on him then us taking him.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 04:48 PM
I mean what would you have preferred to do with our picks last night? Weve all been asking to address these positions for awhile now, and then when they do we still harp on them haha. Idk let's wait until we see what BB is planning on doing with the both of them before we start being overly critical. And who didn't see the hightower pick coming? It would have been more surprising for us to pass on him then us taking him.

Hightower was a B- selection. We don't have a drastic need for leadership on this team, and he doesn't really add a ton to this defense. I see where EE is coming from on this one. Yes, he is a unique athlete, but he isn't sudden or explosive, and honestly that is what has been missing. They missed out on an opportunity to get a player who was going to do more to help this team. He'll probably make a mark on this team, but there are definitely guys who are as talented in spots that get more to the crux of what is wrong with this defense. Size and physicality is not what is lacking on D.

Now, Chandler Jones was a great selection. I have no beef with that one.

Razor
04-27-2012, 04:54 PM
Hightower was a B- selection. We don't have a drastic need for leadership on this team, and he doesn't really add a ton to this defense. I see where EE is coming from on this one. Yes, he is a unique athlete, but he isn't sudden or explosive, and honestly that is what has been missing. They missed out on an opportunity to get a player who was going to do more to help this team. He'll probably make a mark on this team, but there are definitely guys who are as talented in spots that get more to the crux of what is wrong with this defense. Size and physicality is not what is lacking on D.

Now, Chandler Jones was a great selection. I have no beef with that one.
How do we not need leadership on defense? We can't stop anyone or finish games. Bringing in a captain on the best defense in college football is perfect. We have great linebackers with this move and great versatility. I love the pick and just based on potential Hightower could've been a top 15 selection. Size and physicality is exactly what we need on defense since we're considered a finesse defense. Opposing offenses considers the NE defense soft and they are! You can't ever get too big or physical on defense as long as it doesn't come at the expense of speed which this doesn't. I like the upside of the defense with this move. The Mammoth Defense....

Jvig43
04-27-2012, 05:04 PM
Yeah Im not really sure where you got the sentiment that leadership wasn't needed. Is it priority one? No probably not but we are seriously lacking the leadership we had from the likes of Bruschi and Harrison a few years ago. Wilfork being the big leader on this team as someone else mentioned isn't enough. I don't see how you can complain about the leadership aspect or say we don't need it. And honestly this is such a BB move, everyone and their mothers saw it coming.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 05:07 PM
How do we not need leadership on defense? We can't stop anyone or finish games. Bringing in a captain on the best defense in college football is perfect. We have great linebackers with this move and great versatility. I love the pick and just based on potential Hightower could've been a top 15 selection. Size and physicality is exactly what we need on defense since we're considered a finesse defense. Opposing offenses considers the NE defense soft and they are! You can't ever get too big or physical on defense as long as it doesn't come at the expense of speed which this doesn't. I like the upside of the defense with this move. The Mammoth Defense....

We can't finish games because there is a fundamental lack of talent on that side of the ball. McCourty and Arrington couldn't cover anybody last year. There is nobody on the inside capable of getting a consistent pass rush, our Linebackers and Safeties had major coverage issues as well. We played most of the season without 2 of our better run defenders, and still were able to get away with it. Hightower is a cross between Brandon Spikes and Rob Ninkovich, which is great for a lot of teams, but not the Patriots who already have those guys. Hightower is not good in coverage, just watch the guy, he has very little fluidity and his instincts are questionable.

It's downright idiotic to say that we lost games at the end because of a lack of leadership. Leadership gives you an edge of staying disciplined and doing the work you need to do during the week. You can have plenty of rah rah guys, but at the end of the day you need to be talented enough to stop opposing teams when push comes to shove. The Pats aren't going to get better in the 4th quarter because Hightower is a great leader. I also don't know where you're getting this idea that the Pats were a finesse defense. Maybe for awhile when we had WR's playing at CB and Mark Anderson starting at RE, but for the most part when you roll out with Kyle Love, Vince Wilfork, Patrick Chung, Brandon Spikes, Jerod Mayo, Brandon Deaderick, Devin McCourty, Ras-I Dowling, and Rob Ninkovich you have a stout defense. The problem is that they can't cover people, and having Hightower does nothing to solve that problem.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 05:09 PM
Yeah Im not really sure where you got the sentiment that leadership wasn't needed. Is it priority one? No probably not but we are seriously lacking the leadership we had from the likes of Bruschi and Harrison a few years ago. Wilfork being the big leader on this team as someone else mentioned isn't enough. I don't see how you can complain about the leadership aspect or say we don't need it. And honestly this is such a BB move, everyone and their mothers saw it coming.

Every year we get the leadership/captain type guys, and it's the story coming out every time about how high character these guys are. Leadership always helps, but it should be pretty low on the list in terms of how we're building the team at this point.

It's not like I didn't see this move coming, I predicted it in our mock thread, but it doesn't mean that I'm happy about it. We could have done better.

Razor
04-27-2012, 05:15 PM
There was absolutely no respect for the Patriots defense last year. That was painfully clear in every game. It's also idiotic (just to use your kind word) to say that we didn't lose games because of a lack of leadership on defense. Hightower has crazy football IQ and is much more gifted than Mayo imo.

Forget this, I'm done...

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 05:18 PM
Cmarq basically said what I was going to say better than I could have.

I will add that leadership in football is never as mechanical as people make it out to be in draft circles. Hightower was a team captain at Alabama. That's great. How much of that had to do with him being one of the better upperclassmen as opposed to some kind of tangible "intangible". Reports are that he leveraged that all into doing some nice things on the leadership front...but if I'm a guy who has paid his dues in the league for a few years I'm damn sure not listening to some rookie yap at me and tell me how to do things. Those things have to happen organically....and we'll never be able to tell the full extent of just what is going on with regards to those things.

...but don't construe that as meaning we should stop taking those types of guys. That's certainly a bonus, but I cmarq nailed it in saying that Hightower won't magically make us cover any better because of his supposed leadership characteristics.

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 05:23 PM
There was absolutely no respect for the Patriots defense last year. That was painfully clear in every game. It's also idiotic (just to use your kind word) to say that we didn't lose games because of a lack of leadership on defense. Hightower has crazy football IQ and is much more gifted than Mayo imo.

Forget this, I'm done...

Alright, I'll bite.

We lack leadership. It lost us games. Almost every guy we draft has leadership ability/was a team captain. Why do we lack leadership? What makes Hightower a surer bet than any of the previous guys to give us leadership and win us football games with it?

Jvig43
04-27-2012, 05:32 PM
Alright, I'll bite.

We lack leadership. It lost us games. Almost every guy we draft has leadership ability/was a team captain. Why do we lack leadership? What makes Hightower a surer bet than any of the previous guys to give us leadership and win us football games with it?

He was touted as one of the best defensive leaders in this draft so theres that. I mean that was one of his strong selling points, why would we just say it wont translate, why couldn't we assume it will? I mean you can't just choose to rag on someone for their weaknesses and then assume their strengths wont translate over. Why would you do that except for just ragging on the guy? If were going to take scouts word about his weaknesses we should take into account the strengths but it's irritating to have to listen to guys not only harp on him for his weaknesses (which is fair game) but then just assume that his strengths aren't good enough either/ assume wont translate. Jesus and here I thought I was pessimistic. Again both of you keep saying we could of gotten better, well who would you of liked to be the pick there, I'm really just curious. I'm not saying it was the best, sexiest pick but we havent even used the rest of our picks (all two of them! haha). Let's wait to see what happens tonight, hell even how we use him. He may not be a pure pass rusher but he can get after the QB, and that's something we do need regardless of where it's from. Just chill out, and calling people idiotic because they have a different opinion on the matter is my definition of the word idiotic, if you want to cry over a pick in the draft fine thats what this place is for, but let's not resort to name calling.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 05:35 PM
There was absolutely no respect for the Patriots defense last year. That was painfully clear in every game. It's also idiotic (just to use your kind word) to say that we didn't lose games because of a lack of leadership on defense. Hightower has crazy football IQ and is much more gifted than Mayo imo.

Forget this, I'm done...

So how do you get respect? By giving more speeches, or by actually going out and making plays? What does Hightower's leadership do to remedy the problems that McCourty and Arrington have on the outside? I for one don't event think Hightower's skill set is one that the Pats would want on the field in crunch time when they're trying to hold a lead. Hightower is a big body who can run in a straight line and hold the point of attack, but he's nowhere near as fluid or as explosive as Mayo. Just look at the combine numbers for a comparison.

Mayo: 4.56 40, 4.29 ss, 7.32 3 cone, 40.5" vert. 9'5" broad
Hightower: 4.64 40, 4.64 ss, 7.55 3 cone, 32" vert. 9'9" broad

Just by watching him you can see that he's not as good of an athlete in pads as his combine #'s indicate either. Listen I don't think he'll be a bad player for us, and he might even make some pro bowls down the line, but as it stands a thumper ILB who can bump down and be a mediocre edge rusher isn't what would have helped the most.

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 05:42 PM
He was touted as one of the best defensive leaders in this draft so theres that.

So was Brandon Spikes. I've yet to see someone come up with a logically refutation of the leadership arguments Cmarq and I have made other than "jesus stop being negative".

I mean that was one of his strong selling points, why would we just say it wont translate, why couldn't we assume it will? I mean you can't just choose to rag on someone for their weaknesses and then assume their strengths wont translate over.

Again, we've been talking about team culture and chemistry. You can't run a 4.4 in that, or pick off X number of negative thoughts on the sideline. It's not a plug and play kind of thing. It's a bonus that Hightower is supposedly a good locker room guy, but that stuff isn't binary. You have to build that kind of thing.

gain both of you keep saying we could of gotten better, well who would you of liked to be the pick there, I'm really just curious.
Honestly, I think we would have been better off staying put and seeing how the board broke. Not that what we gave up was too bad given our roster spot situation. Trading down should be met with skepticism, but considering the price we paid for Jones I really wouldn't have minded there(assuming we could have. We do it so often here that it's easy to forget that not everyone is willing to deal up for your pick 100% of the time). It's not really much about who else we could have taken(although I would have preferred to land Harrison Smith directly, even though it also would have been a reach), it's more about how much Hightower helps us vs. how much we paid for it. As I said, I don't hate the selection of Hightower in a vacuum.

Jvig43
04-27-2012, 05:43 PM
So how do you get respect? By giving more speeches, or by actually going out and making plays? What does Hightower's leadership do to remedy the problems that McCourty and Arrington have on the outside? I for one don't event think Hightower's skill set is one that the Pats would want on the field in crunch time when they're trying to hold a lead. Hightower is a big body who can run in a straight line and hold the point of attack, but he's nowhere near as fluid or as explosive as Mayo. Just look at the combine numbers for a comparison.

Mayo: 4.56 40, 4.29 ss, 7.32 3 cone, 40.5" vert. 9'5" broad
Hightower: 4.64 40, 4.64 ss, 7.55 3 cone, 32" vert. 9'9" broad

Just by watching him you can see that he's not as good of an athlete in pads as his combine #'s indicate either. Listen I don't think he'll be a bad player for us, and he might even make some pro bowls down the line, but as it stands a thumper ILB who can bump down and be a mediocre edge rusher isn't what would have helped the most.

And if we had picked up and reached some second round DB you guys would be crying over how we never address the pass rush. Give BB credit for going for some players in the draft we normally sit back and get taken. I'm tired of getting second tier god damn DBs, reaching for safety isn't going to help our safety issue with Barron off the boards, and I sure as well would of been skeptical of getting Jenkins that early in the draft as well. Just say who you would of picked up over him at this point. What are these imaginary corners that were just going to come in and be shut down guys for us to help stop the pass?

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 05:44 PM
I just don't like Hightower that much as a prospect for us. I haven't for a couple years now. I love C. Jones, but I don't have to like everything the Pats do, and Hightower doesn't do it for me. I'm ok with it, and am nowhere near jumping off the ship, but I think there were numerous options we could have gone with there that would do more to actually change our defense.

I'm excited to see our unit on the goal line now with Hightower and Jones, but it's the stuff that is going to happen in the middle there that concerns me.

I don't have anything against Razor or you guys, but I think it's pretty misguided to say that leadership is the reason why our defense sucks. Everybody works hard, they play with passion, but the problem is that some of the guys just suck. I don't think there is theoretically any amount of leadership that will solve that.

TNPatsFan
04-27-2012, 05:46 PM
I love Hightower. Sure, maybe it wasn't the most pressing need if he's just going to play ILB. But I think he's going to do a lot more than that. How does he improve the defense?

Well let's see. Last year in the playoffs we had Jeff Tarpinian, Tracy White, and Niko Koutivides playing significant minutes at LB. Yeah I'd say there's lots of room for improvement there and Hightower is a huge upgrade over that.

Another way to look at is is like this. In the championship years the Pats basically had THREE starting ILB's in Bruschi, Johnson and Pfifer. Right now all they have is Mayo and Spikes, and Spikes can't stay healthy. They also basically had THREE starting OLB's in McGinest, Vrabel and Colvin. Right now they have Ninkovich and nothing else (unless you count Cunningham and who knows if he will return to promising form). I mean I just don't get the argument that there's no room for improvement in this group of LB's.

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 05:49 PM
And if we had picked up and reached some second round DB you guys would be crying over how we never address the pass rush. Give BB credit for going for some players in the draft we normally sit back and get taken.
Hightower doesn't help with the pass rush. As far as Jones goes, done, on my part.


What are these imaginary corners that were just going to come in and be shut down guys for us to help stop the pass?
Outside of Jenkins, they don't exist. But I would rather see an attempt to solve a problem be made rather than trying to supplement something that isn't a weakness(and might make us even MORE vulnerable against the pass if we plan on playing Spikes and Hightower together). You've also contradicted yourself. We're supposed to give credit for trying making an attempt to solve the pass rush issue and generally be more aggressive but ignore it when we decide to do nothing about pass defense? Bit of a double standard? I know, we suck at drafting defensive backs...but that's the issue. We should be better at it. It's not really excusable that we're as poor as we are.

TNPatsFan
04-27-2012, 05:50 PM
Almost time for round 2.

Tonight I want a big DL (Still, Worthy, Thompson), a DB (Boykin, Hayward, Taylor), and possibly another pass rusher type (Curry, Branch). I'd also love to come away with a WR in this draft. This is as deep a WR class as I've ever seen and it would be a shame to miss out on them entirely.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 05:50 PM
I love that they got Jones. We needed a pass rusher, but hell we could have gone for another true pass rusher instead a jack of all trades master of none MLB/nickel rush guy like Hightower.

I'm happy with the draft so far, but they could have done better than Hightower. It's as simple as that for me

Jvig43
04-27-2012, 05:52 PM
So was Brandon Spikes. I've yet to see someone come up with a logically refutation of the leadership arguments Cmarq and I have made other than "jesus stop being negative".

Brandon Spikes was not as lauded for his leadership intangibles as Hightower was. Stop saying that, the comparison is more of a stretch in that department than your giving him credit for. We got Spikes in what the third, fourth round?

Again, we've been talking about team culture and chemistry. You can't run a 4.4 in that, or pick off X number of negative thoughts on the sideline. It's not a plug and play kind of thing. It's a bonus that Hightower is supposedly a good locker room guy, but that stuff isn't binary. You have to build that kind of thing.

I don't disagree but you are the one just assuming it wont happen despite him being praised for these types of things. You two are the ones arguing against the conventional take on this, not us so if youre going to just assume it wont happen, let us just assume it may because again youre bashing him for his negatives and then assuming his positives wont work out. It's just not being objective like you say you are trying to be, youre being overtly critical for the sake of being overtly critical.
Honestly, I think we would have been better off staying put and seeing how the board broke. Not that what we gave up was too bad given our roster spot situation. Trading down should be met with skepticism, but considering the price we paid for Jones I really wouldn't have minded there(assuming we could have. We do it so often here that it's easy to forget that not everyone is willing to deal up for your pick 100% of the time). It's not really much about who else we could have taken(although I would have preferred to land Harrison Smith directly, even though it also would have been a reach), it's more about how much Hightower helps us vs. how much we paid for it. As I said, I don't hate the selection of Hightower in a vacuum.

So reaching for Smith would have been a better idea than taking Hightower? That would have been way more of a reach then what we ended up with. No thank you on that one. And seriously how much we paid for it, a fourth round pick is not alot to give up to move up and grab a guy we like. We gave up a third and a fourth for tow guys we wanted, stop acting like that is some huge and steep price to pay when every other year we have like a hundred picks in those rounds anyway. I have already given you that it may not have been the best pick or the sexiest pick but god damn reaching for smith, or continuing to say it wasn't about who we pick, because if you keep saying we should of went else where with it and not back up that reasoning my head will explode. Come out and say it, don't just keep saying these imaginary players would have been better, just say who you think we should of picked.

I love that they got Jones. We needed a pass rusher, but hell we could have gone for another true pass rusher instead a jack of all trades master of none MLB/nickel rush guy like Hightower.

I'm happy with the draft so far, but they could have done better than Hightower. It's as simple as that for me

And again with the "we could of done better but I wont say specifically who". The both of you need to stop with that argument until you start trowing in who would of been better, because it's really irritating and is a weak argument until you start backing it up. What player (and you specifically have said hightower is bad because he wont help with the pass) was there that was going to help in that area? Did you want to reach for Smith as well? Jenkins? Taylor? Who?

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 05:59 PM
Ok fine then

Jenkins
Smith
Zeitler
Hill
Kendricks,
Trade down for a David or Wagner type who all fit the profile of a the type of LBer we need
Mercilus

I'm not bitching for the sake of bitching, I just don't like Hightower for us.

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 06:06 PM
Brandon Spikes was not as lauded for his leadership intangibles as Hightower was. Stop saying that, the comparison is more of a stretch in that department than your giving him credit for. We got Spikes in what the third, fourth round?

Pure revisionist history. I'm just going to tell it straight. We got Spikes in the second round(which was a reach). The reason he even went that high was because of supposed intangible value. I've cited several things in a previous post and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Also, I'm not reading anywhere that Hightower is this SUPER LEADER that everyone else is making him out to be(and as I've mentioned, I would be skeptical as all hell about them due to the realities of those things translating). I'm hearing similar things that I've heard about a lot of guys we've brought in.


I don't disagree but you are the one just assuming it wont happen despite him being praised for these types of things. You two are the ones arguing against the conventional take on this, not us so if youre going to just assume it wont happen, let us just assume it may because again youre bashing him for his negatives and then assuming his positives wont work out. It's just not being objective like you say you are trying to be, youre being overtly critical for the sake of being overtly critical.

I'm not assuming he won't be a leader. I'm questioning the validity of those things working out. I've tried to establish that there's a mixed track record with that and I really feel like I've presented enough to do that. If it was something else other than leadership, I would buy it. I've stated my thoughts on that before. I resent you trying to make it out like my thoughts on the matter to "being overtly critical for the sake of being overtly critical". Point blank, that's how I feel about leadership. It's not a matter of convenience to be critical. Next thing you're going to be calling me a "hater" :/

So reaching for Smith would have been a better idea than taking Hightower? That would have been way more of a reach then what we ended up with. No thank you on that one. And seriously how much we paid for it, a fourth round pick is not alot to give up to move up and grab a guy we like. We gave up a third and a fourth for tow guys we wanted, stop acting like that is some huge and steep price to pay when every other year we have like a hundred picks in those rounds anyway. I have already given you that it may not have been the best pick or the sexiest pick but god damn reaching for smith, or continuing to say it wasn't about who we pick, because if you keep saying we should of went else where with it. Well come out and say it then don't just keep saying these imaginary players would have been better, just say who you think we should of picked.

Not saying that we gave up too much to move up. I don't agree with you about how much of a reach it would have been to take Smith at some point. In my mind, Hightower was a bit of a reach, for reasons previously stated. Never been a big fan. At the very least, I would have preferred a reach for a guy who helps us at a position of need.


...and if you really want to get into it, we can go down the "What's a reach?" road. Smith and Hightower both graded out as second round type picks to be(I was a bit lower on Hightower than most, a bit higher on Smith. Really impressed me in the Senior Bowl practices). There's very little difference between that type of player and the type of player you can pick up at the end of the first round.

Blackluck
04-27-2012, 06:07 PM
Respectfully, I think cmarq and EE are being a little short sighted. But the argument is in the end pointless. We'll see how it plays out in September.
I'm pretty happy. I think we're going to see a more aggressive, physical defense.

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 06:09 PM
I'm pretty happy. I think we're going to see a more aggressive, physical defense.

I'll believe aggressive when we see it. We hear we'll be playing a more aggressive defense nearly every year. Hightower might be a violent, aggressive linebacker but if we're getting burned(at the expense of Hightower, even), it's not going to get us out of off zone.

Razor
04-27-2012, 06:10 PM
Sorry, but I needed to cool off after what happened.

Why would anyone want to take JJ who has more documented problems than pretty much any other draft prospect that I can remember? The added negative bonus for NE would be that he'd be reunited with Hernandez and Spikes which could drag those two down to JJ's level. I'm sure BB doesn't want to take that risk. Harrison Smith is a reach in the first. I love Zeitler but really, that more of a luxury pick than Hightower. Hill is terrible and shouldn't ever have been mentioned as a first round possibility but forty times makes people forget about the tape. Kendricks is far from Hightower as a prospect and wrt. upside. Lastly, Mercilus is a one year wonder and BB doesn't draft those. Also, most of his pressure came from the inside, not from the edge. How is the team not better after drafting Hightower? I really don't get it and this just seems as though you're being negative for the sake of negativity. It's fair that you don't like Hightower for us but you can't argue that we're not a better team with him. Also, how many DBs are we going to draft and watch fail because we lack quality in the front seven? I'd much rather draft front seven guys at this point and see how that affects the defensive backfield. We've tried it the other way around and look what happened.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 06:19 PM
Sorry, but I needed to cool off after what happened.

Why would anyone want to take JJ who has more documented problems than pretty much any other draft prospect that I can remember? The added negative bonus for NE would be that he'd be reunited with Hernandez and Spikes which could drag those two down to JJ's level. I'm sure BB doesn't want to take that risk. Harrison Smith is a reach in the first. I love Zeitler but really, that more of a luxury pick than Hightower. Hill is terrible and shouldn't ever have been mentioned as a first round possibility but forty times makes people forget about the tape. Kendricks is far from Hightower as a prospect and wrt. upside. Lastly, Mercilus is a one year wonder and BB doesn't draft those. Also, most of his pressure came from the inside, not from the edge. How is the team not better after drafting Hightower? I really don't get it and this just seems as though you're being negative for the sake of negativity. It's fair that you don't like Hightower for us but you can't argue that we're not a better team with him. Also, how many DBs are we going to draft and watch fail because we lack quality in the front seven? I'd much rather draft front seven guys at this point and see how that affects the defensive backfield. We've tried it the other way around and look what happened.

The front 7 wasn't really the problem last year though. In all honesty they were the strength of our defense (if we really had one) despite missing Carter, Spikes, Mayo, and Deaderick for significant stretches. I just don't think Hightower is a great prospect, and he didn't add enough value to our defensive unit to warrant his selection. I've always felt like he was a bit overrated.

I'm not going to argue with you about all those guys, but IMO they all do more to help us in the short and long term than Hightower does. The problem still is that we can't cover. You guys have blinders on if you think our failures in the secondary are all a direct result of our front 7 not being good enough. The pressure was decent last year, but McCourty, Ihedigbo, and Arrington were just brutal in coverage.

Jvig43
04-27-2012, 06:22 PM
We aren't magically going to fix the pass defense problems by reaching for players in those positions who aren't very good. We do it every god damn year and that is much more so of a problem for us then if we tried getting some pass rushers, which ironically every year all we hear is "Why are we ignoring our pass rushing problem" and now when BB finally changes things up and stops reaching and grabbing some B- DB in the early second late first we hear "How is pass rush going to help the pass?". The pass defense wasn't magically going to get fixed picking up Jenkins in the first. We picked a guy who fits the BB mold, and I will not complain about Mayo, Spikes and Hightower as our linebackers. Spikes played very very well at the end of last season imo, and that gets overshadowed by his inconsistent play before that point. Mayo obviously I agree is overrated and not a game changer like alot of people make him out to be. With that said I am perfectly content with that pick, and I really wish we wouldn't put this much hate into the pick until we start seeing Jenkins, or Smith start becoming elite players or Hightower just flat out busting. Let's wait until September to start this critique, I hated the Solder pick last year but that turned out pretty damn well for us, much quicker than I thought it would have too. No one is saying we can cover, but you seriously need to take the blinders off if you think that magically goes away with Smith or Jenkins. That is much more ridiculous and naive then saying that Hightower will help with leadership of the defense.

TNPatsFan
04-27-2012, 06:23 PM
The pressure was decent last year, but the two guys that accounted for a big majority of that pressure are no longer with the team.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 06:24 PM
But the thing is that Hightower isn't very good. His production is meh, and he's limited athletically IMO. You can say we shouldn't reach for other guys, but I think some of the other guys you say are reaches are superior prospects to Hightower. Regardless, can't we all (with the exception of EE) just celebrate that we got Chandler Jones! We finally got a pass rusher with tools!

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 06:27 PM
Regardless, can't we all (with the exception of EE) just celebrate that we got Chandler Jones! We finally got a pass rusher with tools!

****, I'll celebrate that. Not my guy, but he's a guy. That's all I can ask for.

Jvig43
04-27-2012, 06:30 PM
But the thing is that Hightower isn't very good. His production is meh, and he's limited athletically IMO. You can say we shouldn't reach for other guys, but I think some of the other guys you say are reaches are superior prospects to Hightower. Regardless, can't we all (with the exception of EE) just celebrate that we got Chandler Jones! We finally got a pass rusher with tools!

I'm with you on that, I have high hopes for his future. I just think that you guys are being too critical on the Hightower pick. I don't love it (even tho I have just spent a lot of time defending it) but I think you guys are just being a tad ridiculous and not as objective as you think.

BradysKnee
04-27-2012, 06:31 PM
Damn I was hoping for Branch.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 06:32 PM
I'm with you on that, I have high hopes for his future. I just think that you guys are being too critical on the Hightower pick. I don't love it (even tho I have just spent a lot of time defending it) but I think you guys are just being a tad ridiculous and not as objective as you think.

That's fine with me, we'll have to see. Nothing would make me happier than if Hightower turned out to be like Willie McGinest. I just don't see it as of right now, but then again Hightower was never my guy. I think he'll help, but I don't think he's going to contribute in the same areas you guys think he will.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 06:34 PM
Ouch, that one hurts. Wolfe and Jenkins were 2 guys I zeroed in on for the 2nd.

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 06:37 PM
Ouch, that one hurts. Wolfe and Jenkins were 2 guys I zeroed in on for the 2nd.

I liked Wolfe too(more towards the end of it), but Still wouldn't be a bad consolation prize if he were to fall like Mayock is saying he is now. Sounds like we might have a shot at a big body if that's the way we want to go.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 06:39 PM
I liked Wolfe too(more towards the end of it), but Still wouldn't be a bad consolation prize if he were to fall like Mayock is saying he is now. Sounds like we might have a shot at a big body if that's the way we want to go.

I might be ok with Still at 48. He's really bad at using his hands to lock out though. That is a big time issue in our system.

Razor
04-27-2012, 06:40 PM
I might be ok with Still at 48. He's really bad at using his hands to lock out though. That is a big time issue in our system.

Yeah, that's my problem with him as well. He just uses his mass and has little or no technique involved in his game. I doubt he'll be a Patriot tbh. Worthy is more likely imo, but I'm hoping for Boykin.

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 06:45 PM
I might be ok with Still at 48. He's really bad at using his hands to lock out though. That is a big time issue in our system.

Big time upside still though. A lot of his flaws are fairly coachable and the bodytype is right. I'm not the biggest fan in the world, but I've wanted a guy who can be a true DE in a 3-4 for awhile now.

BradysKnee
04-27-2012, 06:47 PM
Unlike their first pick, Jets taking Stephen Hill would be a solid pick. Dunno how much Tebow will be able to hit him though.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 06:50 PM
For the love of god Razor I hope you're right about Hill.

TNPatsFan
04-27-2012, 06:54 PM
Always hate seeing players I like go to teams I hate. But in reality Hill is a developmental guy who should have been picked in the third or fourth round. He could end up being a great WR but I don't see it happening with the Jets. Definitely not if Tebow is the QB.

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 06:54 PM
For the love of god Razor I hope you're right about Hill.

I like Hill too. I've been burnt by guys like him before, but I don't think I'll ever truly learn for guys like that.


...so my justification for this not being that bad is that Sanchez doesn't have the arm to hit him down the field anyway.

Razor
04-27-2012, 06:55 PM
You never know, but he never seemed sudden in his routes and didn't disguise them very well. He can kill you on the fly route, but that's about it. But we play a lot two deep safeties so I hope that can contain him. Especially with an improved front seven.

TNPatsFan
04-27-2012, 06:57 PM
Only a few more picks before the Pats. I know they already took a similar player but I would love to see them take Vinny Curry.

I have a feeling this will be the pick they trade though. Move back 8 or 10 spots and get themselves a fourth or fifth rounder.

Blackluck
04-27-2012, 06:58 PM
Two boom/bust guys for the Jets. *hex hex hex*

Edit: Vinny Curry would be awesome.

Razor
04-27-2012, 06:59 PM
I'd take Randle or Boykin if they're available, but Konz would be tempting as well.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 06:59 PM
You never know, but he never seemed sudden in his routes and didn't disguise them very well. He can kill you on the fly route, but that's about it. But we play a lot two deep safeties so I hope that can contain him. Especially with an improved front seven.

It's tough because coming from GT there isn't a whole lot to go off of. However, you can't deny that kind of raw talent. Even if he never develops the short game, I could still see him causing us a lot of problems in the future with that big time size/speed. Thankfully, Sanchez is the great equalizer.

Razor
04-27-2012, 07:00 PM
It's tough because coming from GT there isn't a whole lot to go off of. However, you can't deny that kind of raw talent. Even if he never develops the short game, I could still see him causing us a lot of problems in the future with that big time size/speed. Thankfully, Sanchez is the great equalizer.

The Sanchez factor will be huge... I think that there are very few players that can be great at being limited. Moss was great at it, but not limited to it. He was just used in that way. I like Hill's tools, but this is too high for him. Draft guys like him later and let him develop. That's the way I'd do it.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 07:00 PM
Only a few more picks before the Pats. I know they already took a similar player but I would love to see them take Vinny Curry.

I have a feeling this will be the pick they trade though. Move back 8 or 10 spots and get themselves a fourth or fifth rounder.

I honestly wouldn't mind that now that Jenkins, Wolfe, and Hill are gone. There aren't too many guys I'm in love with on the board left.

*Edit* Add Kendricks to that list too.

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 07:04 PM
This seems like a great spot for a classic Patriots what the **** pick.

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 07:07 PM
This seems like a great spot for a classic Patriots what the **** pick.

Ok Everyone call it, I'll go Zebrie Sanders for pure WTF ness.

ElectricEye
04-27-2012, 07:11 PM
Called it.

TNPatsFan
04-27-2012, 07:11 PM
Yup. Drafting for need

nepg
04-27-2012, 07:12 PM
This seems like a great spot for a classic Patriots what the **** pick.
BLAM! But at least they got the S. Just need the WR now.

Would've rather had Markelle Martin because I really like him, but I'm just glad they got a S that they obviously like.

Razor
04-27-2012, 07:12 PM
This seems like a great spot for a classic Patriots what the **** pick.

Good call. WTF? :confuse:

cmarq83
04-27-2012, 07:12 PM
I know virtually nothing about him. Anyone got any info?

Wootylicous
04-27-2012, 07:13 PM
What the ******* ****

TNPatsFan
04-27-2012, 07:13 PM
Hard to imagine how that could be the best player on their board with all the solid talent that's still there. On the other hand. It would be hard for him NOT to be better than the safeties that played for the Pats last year.

Jvig43
04-27-2012, 07:14 PM
Yeahhhhhhhhh about that. I was really hoping for Konz there tbh.

TNPatsFan
04-27-2012, 07:15 PM
I was really hoping Troy Brown from Marshall would announce they took a Marshall guy. That being Vinny Curry.