What Did YOU Think of Bruce Irvin at #15?

[gpngc]

So what did you think and why?

Two points that are INVALID if you claim 'bad pick.'

1) He is not undersized for the position he will play in Seattle's defensive scheme.

2) The idea that they could have gotten him later and should have traded down if he was their target is incorrect. In fact, the GM said that he had an offer on the table but declined because he thought the Jets were going to take him at No. 16.

Per CBS Sports' Rob Rang, the 49ers, Jets, and Ravens all would have taken Bruce Irvin in the first round had he made it to their pick.
Those are some pretty good-drafting teams. Profootballtalk.com reported late Thursday that as many as seven teams had Irvin as a top-15 overall player on their draft boards. The Irvin pick has been panned as a reach, and ESPN's Mel Kiper called it "mind boggling" after Seattle executed the selection. Kiper has never worked in the league, though, and the NFL vehemently disagrees.
Related: Ravens, 49ers, Jets
Source: Rob Rang on Twitter

From PFT following media/internet/fan/draftnik widespread criticism of the pick:

Per a league source, at least seven teams had Irvin rated as one of the top 15 players available in the draft.

This is a pre-draft feature that delves into his checkered past:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--west-virginia-prospect-bruce-irvin-ditches-burglary--drug-game-for-shot-at-nfl.html
Take from it what you will.

From GM John Schneider ("reached" similarly on James Carpenter last year - struggled in his rookie year; but track record includes Russell Okung, Earl Thomas, late-round gems Kam Chancellor, K.J. Wright, and Richard Sherman, trades for highly productive DE Chris Clemons and RB Marshawn Lynch, UDFA gem Doug Baldwin, and two impressive hauls in veteran FA, highlighted by Sidney Rice, Matt Flynn, and Jason Jones):

"We obviously viewed him as the best pass rusher in the draft," he said adding he had no interest in waiting to get a player at the risk of losing him. "We had this guy rated as one of the top players in the draft.

Keep in mind that they could have had ANY other outside pass-rusher in the entire draft at No. 15 but chose Irvin.

"He's rare. This guy comes off the ball like Dwight Freeney and Von Miller and Jevon Kearse. It's like that."

From Pete Carroll:
"He is exactly the makeup that you are looking for," Carroll said. "This goes all the way back to Charles Haley and Chris Doleman and Derrick Thomas. That is the kind of effect this guy has a chance to have. He has a lot to learn. He is going to have to grow up with us and learn our system. But the makeup of this player is so rare. He looks like a carbon copy of Von Miller rushing the passer."


Extremely interesting from Irvin himself (I believe this quote can be spun positively OR negatively, which makes it pretty fascinating):

"I know you've all heard I'm a one-trick pony, but the crazy thing is I got 23 sacks in two years and I've never been coached," said Irvin. "That's all athletic ability. So just if I get a little coaching just imagine what I could do."

Lastly, keep in mind that the Seahawks had ONE positional need for the upcoming season - MLB (only if you consider Barrett Ruud an unacceptable starter, which most do).

[Raiderz4Life]

Shane's rant says it all imo

[Caddy]

It's a reach. Nice try Seahawks fan!

[fenikz]

im still going with this reaction

http://i33.tinypic.com/2ceneyc.jpg

Would of taken him in the 3rd in the last forum mock had I been awake at 5 am though

[Caddy]

im still going with this reaction

http://i33.tinypic.com/2ceneyc.jpg

Would of taken him in the 3rd in the last forum mock had I been awake at 5 am though

I prefer this oldie

http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu130/idunno271828/Funny%20Pics/GaryColemanJokingRight.gif

[thetedginnshow]

I don't see a problem with it, regardless of whether other teams would have taken him. No one comes close to having his first step. It's strange what the draft process does too because I could have sworn people were much higher on Irvin last off-season. He's a beast. I will look forward to seeing him at home games.

[Scotty D]

It's a reach. Nice try Seahawks fan!

A reach in comparison to draftnik's draft boards.

[Monomach]

Shane's got this:

onbBiAO5srU

...and it's pretty epic.

[Caddy]

A reach in comparison to draftnik's draft boards.

We get it. A team wanted him there so it isn't a reach for them. From now on lets just assume every player went at the exact position they were supposed to go, because that is where they were drafted.

[gpngc]

It's a reach. Nice try Seahawks fan!

He was not a reach at all based on the boards of NFL personnel guys. But he was based on Mel Kiper's board. And most internet boards.

[Caddy]

He was not a reach at all based on the boards of NFL personnel guys. But he was based on Mel Kiper's board. And most internet boards.

No player is a reach. Every player went exactly where they were supposed to. Lets never discuss a players positioning in the draft again.

[PossibleCabbage]

I like Irvin. I don't like Irvin anywhere near as much as the Seahawks apparently liked him. I would take him in the 2nd easily, but I struggle with that player in the slot.

[gpngc]

Shane's got this:

onbBiAO5srU

...and it's pretty epic.

Pretty funny. And I understand the concerns.

But he doesn't understand the Seahawks defense at all. He'll play LEO and is a perfect fit. And he won't start this year. Their #1 need was at MLB. Their #2 need was at situational pass rusher/backup LEO to Chris Clemons.

Maybe when he's in on 3rd-and-7 for Red Bryant they'll run draws to his side and get burned... but it's not like this acquisition has somehow destroyed the Seahawks already stout run defense.

[TACKLE]

The more and more I think about this pick, the more and more I like it.

[Mr. Goosemahn]

He's gonna be very hard to mold/develop, and it's gonna take time. I think people assume he's gonna come in and have an Aldon Smith type of impact, and that couldn't be further from the truth, IMO.

From what I see he's a talented one-dimensional speed rusher. He reminds me of Bruce Davis out of UCLA back in 2008. 23 sacks in two years as a starter, and very productive. A lot of the things they say about Irvin they said about Davis, about needing to add strength and being fast and a speed-rusher. He was drafted in the third round by Pitt, never did anything, never developed at all, and was cut after a year. He's bounced around in the league, been in five teams in 5 years (Steelers, Patriots, Broncos, San Fran, and Oakland) and has done absolutely nothing as a pro.

Irvin reminds me of him in the sense that his college production will not translate smoothly to the NFL. I know this is subjective and somewhat speculative, but that's what I see. For me, he'd be a better LB than DE, but I dunno exactly how Seattle will use him. I just know it's a very risky pick, not only because of his character, but due to the fact that he's just too big of a wild-card as a prospect. They didn't really know how to use him in college and that could also be the case in the NFL. I thought his best fit would be as a 3-4 OLB that could just blitz all day long on the outside of tackles.

He has just as much, if not more, bust potential than he has regular potential.

[thetedginnshow]

Haha. Shane is awesome.

[gpngc]

No player is a reach. Every player went exactly where they were supposed to. Lets never discuss a players positioning in the draft again.

OK but we can all add and subtract based on rankings.

The idea is to delve more deeply into that analysis. What made it a reach? Who specifically would have been better and why? Let's discuss his flaws as a player. Why he'll fail, etc.

Shane at least starts to do that citing film study before he gets funny.

[gpngc]

He's gonna be very hard to mold/develop, and it's gonna take time. I think people assume he's gonna come in and have an Aldon Smith type of impact, and that couldn't be further from the truth, IMO.

From what I see he's a talented one-dimensional speed rusher. He reminds me of Bruce Davis out of UCLA back in 2008. 23 sacks in two years as a starter, and very productive. A lot of the things they say about Irvin they said about Davis, about needing to add strength and being fast and a speed-rusher. He was drafted in the third round by Pitt, never did anything, never developed at all, and was cut after a year. He's bounced around in the league, been in five teams in 5 years (Steelers, Patriots, Broncos, San Fran, and Oakland) and has done absolutely nothing as a pro.

Irvin reminds me of him in the sense that his college production will not translate smoothly to the NFL. I know this is subjective and somewhat speculative, but that's what I see. For me, he'd be a better LB than DE, but I dunno exactly how Seattle will use him. I just know it's a very risky pick, not only because of his character, but due to the fact that he's just too big of a wild-card as a prospect. They didn't really know how to use him in college and that could also be the case in the NFL. I thought his best fit would be as a 3-4 OLB that could just blitz all day long on the outside of tackles.

He has just as much, if not more, bust potential than he has regular potential.

Good post. I don't think Bruce Davis was nearly the athlete/pass rusher Irvin is, but I'll agree to disagree.

But it's not really that WVU didn't know how to use him. It was more that he didn't fit their 3-3-5. And he still had 23 sacks in two years... playing severely out of position.

[Caddy]

OK but we can all add and subtract based on rankings.

The idea is to delve more deeply into that analysis. What made it a reach? Who specifically would have been better and why? Let's discuss his flaws as a player. Why he'll fail, etc.

Shane at least starts to do that citing film study before he gets funny.

Why get all serious when it's so much funner to post gifs?

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/wtf/grand/56975245-wtf.gif

Let the Shane P. Hallams of the world tell you why it was a bad pick.

[Mr. Goosemahn]

Good post. I don't think Bruce Davis was nearly the athlete/pass rusher Irvin is, but I'll agree to disagree.

But it's not really that WVU didn't know how to use him. It was more that he didn't fit their 3-3-5. And he still had 23 sacks in two years... playing severely out of position.

Oh, I agree with the athlete/pass-rusher part. Bruce Irvin definitely would be a rich man's version of Davis.

I was making a comparison of the situation combined with the type of player (effective college speed rushers transitioning to NFL), rather than a comparison of the players themselves.

I'd like for him to work out, he'd be extremely fun to see, but as of right now it's still a big gamble and a risky pick.

[TACKLE]

But it's not really that WVU didn't know how to use him. It was more that he didn't fit their 3-3-5. And he still had 23 sacks in two years... playing severely out of position.

Not saying he's Von Miller but....I can't imagine people liking Miller half as much if he was a run-first DE in a 30 front. Likewise, people would probably like Irvin twice as much if he was a stand up 34 rush backer like Miller was.

[Mr. Goosemahn]

Not saying he's Von Miller but....I can't imagine people liking Miller half as much if he was a run-first DE in a 30 front. Likewise, people would probably like Irvin twice as much if he was a stand up 34 rush backer like Miller was.

That's what I envisioned him as. I thought a team like NE, HOU, PIT, or BAL would be able to a.) give him time to develop and b.) allow him to stand up and work beside/behind big DE's.

[Scotty D]

Not to get off topic but I think STL may have taken just as big a risk with Brockers.

[vidae]

I like Irvin but I hate where he was drafted.

[TACKLE]

That's what I envisioned him as. I thought a team like NE, HOU, PIT, or BAL would be able to a.) give him time to develop and b.) allow him to stand up and work beside/behind big DE's.

That's basically what his role for Seattle will be except for it'll be in a 4-3 instead of a 3-4. Little different but similar in concept.

[SFbear]

Well Chicago GM Emery mentioned in his press conference after the first round that Bruce Irvin and Melvin Ingram not being on the board made Shea McClellin an easier choice at 19 so by some definitions Irvin wasn't a reach.

Of course Phil Emery has yet to prove he isn't a terrible GM so that doesn't necessarily redeem the pick.

[gpngc]

Well Chicago GM Emery mentioned in his press conference after the first round that Bruce Irvin and Melvin Ingram not being on the board made Shea McClellin an easier choice at 19 so by some definitions Irvin wasn't a reach.

Of course Phil Emery has yet to prove he isn't a terrible GM so that doesn't necessarily redeem the pick.

I LOL'd but thank you for lending yet more evidence that the pick was not a "reach" in the eyes of professional NFL evaluators.

[Caddy]

Anger wasn't a reach either.

[XxXdragonXxX]

The fact that the Jets, Ravens and Niners were said to all be targeting Irvin in the 1st round makes me feel really good about the pick. Thats the 3rd, 4th and 5th rated defenses in the NFL.

Oh and the fact that the team that actually took him built a 9th rated defense by plugging in guys that nobody else seemed to want...yeah I think they can evaluate defensive talent.

[Caddy]

The fact that the Jets, Ravens and Niners were said to all be targeting Irvin in the 1st round makes me feel really good about the pick. Thats the 3rd, 4th and 5th rated defenses in the NFL.

Oh and the fact that the team that actually took him built a 9th rated defense by plugging in guys that nobody else seemed to want...yeah I think they can evaluate defensive talent.

Because the Jets haven't missed on pass rushers in the first round before. amiright? :banana:

[XxXdragonXxX]

Because the Jets haven't missed on pass rushers in the first round before. amiright? :banana:

So, since the Jets missed on Gholston in 2008, before Rex Ryan was hired, the Jets can't evaluate pass rushers?

[Caddy]

So, since the Jets missed on Gholston in 2008, before Rex Ryan was hired, the Jets can't evaluate pass rushers?

They still have the same Front Office/GM.

[gpngc]

Anger wasn't a reach either.

Anger was a HORRIBLY STUPID PICK because a punter isn't worth it.

If you want to explain why Irvin was a bad pick, go ahead.

But the term "reach" sucks.

[Caddy]

Stop being so butthurt guys! I'm just playing. I have zero intention of arguing for/against Irvin, especially when there are draftniks like Shane who have a much better/educated opinion on the matter.

[holt_bruce81]

Oh man that rant is EPIC lol I love it

[TonyGfortheTD]

Anger wasn't a reach either.

Drafting a punter at the highest spot since Ray Guy isn't a reach? Unless they drafted the next Ray Guy, it's a reach.

[Caddy]

Drafting a punter at the highest spot since Ray Guy isn't a reach? Unless they drafted the next Ray Guy, it's a reach.

http://uploads.neatorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/sarcasm01.jpg

[gpngc]

Stop being so butthurt guys! I'm just playing. I have zero intention of arguing for/against Irvin, especially when there are draftniks like Shane who have a much better/educated opinion on the matter.

Then quit polluting the thread!

After The Alex put us on the map, rumors are swirling that the Jaguars are scouring this very message boards for area scouts.

And PFT reports that seven other teams had The Alex ranked in the top-15.

[TonyGfortheTD]

http://uploads.neatorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/sarcasm01.jpg

I got woosh'd

[Caulibflower]

Pretty funny. And I understand the concerns.

But he doesn't understand the Seahawks defense at all. He'll play LEO and is a perfect fit. And he won't start this year. Their #1 need was at MLB. Their #2 need was at situational pass rusher/backup LEO to Chris Clemons.

Maybe when he's in on 3rd-and-7 for Red Bryant they'll run draws to his side and get burned... but it's not like this acquisition has somehow destroyed the Seahawks already stout run defense.

This is the thing. As a Seahawks fan, my first reaction to the pick was sheer incredulity. But then as I watched some tape of him (I really hadn't prior to the draft), it's obvious he's exactly what Pete Carroll wants in his defense. This is his Clay Matthews. Anyone who watched the Seahawks play last year knows that there's a role there just waiting for the right player to come in. Seeing what Von Miller and Aldon Smith do last year is what Seattle's hoping Irvin can do. He's just as good an athlete as either of those guys, and the major off-field problems are 4 years behind him. But compared to the other guys we'd have picked... Melvin Ingram? Irvin is more dynamic, and we've already got a solid front. The speed is what we need. If I didn't like the pick, I'd be saying so.

[descendency]

I gave it an F. They overdrafted a guy whom will have to significantly change his game to be successful in the NFL. Yes, he was the guy they should have drafted (based on their wants for an outside rusher), but not in the first. No one was that interested in him. I refuse to believe other NFL teams are stupid enough to take a guy purely based on first step in the first round, save Von Miller whom I still regret not realizing how great his first step was.

But then as I watched some tape of him (I really hadn't prior to the draft)

I hope that tape had him standing up, because he played terrible as a down lineman.

Anger was a HORRIBLY STUPID PICK because a punter isn't worth it.

He must have been married.

[Razor]

Taking Irvin at 15 was just dumb... I was like:

http://glup.me/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/epic-fail-2.jpg

http://www.reece-eu.net/gallery/var/albums/funny/epic-fail-****.jpg?m=1272634844

Does not compute. However, Tavon Wilson at 48 was even worse...

http://i1.ryjbuk.pl/fd82a60488fa3a09813fc14c3e9a896e0ee97af8/****-gif-gif

http://redriverpak.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/idiots.jpg

So much fail...

[gpngc]

I gave it an F. They overdrafted a guy whom will have to significantly change his game to be successful in the NFL. Yes, he was the guy they should have drafted (based on their wants for an outside rusher), but not in the first. No one was that interested in him. I refuse to believe other NFL teams are stupid enough to take a guy purely based on first step in the first round, save Von Miller whom I still regret not realizing how great his first step was.


Purposely left out the stupid word 'overdrafted'. But you are very close to making a good point. It's not that he's going to 'change' his game so much as he's going to actually 'learn' a game. He's a lump of clay. An expensive, potentially extremely valuable lump of clay. Pete Carroll majored in ceramics.

But I agree with the spirit of your point in bold - that is risky.

As for you not believing other NFL teams would have taken him - you are in denial. Based on the multiple reports shown in this thread the Bears, Jets, 49ers, and Ravens all had eyes to take him in the first round.

And to that end, in today's NFL, to quote The Alex, "pass rush is one hell of a drug."

[SchizophrenicBatman]

I refuse to believe other NFL teams are stupid enough to take a guy purely based on first step in the first round, save Von Miller whom I still regret not realizing how great his first step was.

Bruce Irvin's 10 yard split was 1.55

Von's was 1.57

[Rosebud]

I think Shane's rant makes me like this pick more than I already do. Irvin's perfect for that Chris Clemons role and should give the seahawks a perennial double digit sack guy.

[TimmG6376]

I hated it purely for the fact that I wanted him to go at #28 so everyone would be ranting on how dumb TT is. His post draft tweet wasnt the first time he's thrown the lack of coaching thing out there. Played out of position and was never really coached on passrush technique. Can't wait to see how he develops under NFL coaching.

[Caddy]

I think Shane's rant makes me like this pick more than I already do. Irvin's perfect for that Chris Clemons role and should give the seahawks a perennial double digit sack guy.

http://www.pigskinbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/jaguars-fan-gif.gif

[Rosebud]

http://www.pigskinbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/jaguars-fan-gif.gif

Might not hit that mark as a rookie but I'll be shocked if he hasn't put up at least ten sacks in a season by the time the draft rolls around, 3 years from now.

[descendency]

Bruce Irvin's 10 yard split was 1.55

Von's was 1.57

That's cool, but Von Miller is way faster in pads. Part of that is instincts. Part of it is just his build. I was just worried more athletic tackles in the pros would neutralize his advantage.

But I agree with the spirit of your point in bold - that is risky.

As for you not believing other NFL teams would have taken him - you are in denial. Based on the multiple reports shown in this thread the Bears, Jets, 49ers, and Ravens all had eyes to take him in the first round.

I may regret this, but this class just didn't have a premiere pass rusher. I think his value was inflated because everyone around him was so below average (for a normal draft). There was no prototypical guy (like Julius Peppers or Mario Williams) in this draft.

I really can't understand why those teams would take a situational pass rusher in round 1. At most, he plays 35 out of 100 snaps per year until he develops some run stopping skills.

[XxXdragonXxX]

I hope that tape had him standing up, because he played terrible as a down lineman.


Playing as a down lineman in a 3-3-5 defense at 245 lbs is a recipe for failure.

Playing as a down lineman in in the Seahawks defense at 245 is a recipe for Chris Clemons. Remember when the Seahawks traded for that guy? Everyone said he was terrible and the Seahawks were dumb for getting rid of Tapp. But Clemons has flourished at the LEO spot, and so will Bruce Irvin.

[WCH]

I think Shane's rant makes me like this pick more than I already do. Irvin's perfect for that Chris Clemons role and should give the seahawks a perennial double digit sack guy.

I like the guy. He was my sleeper pass rusher (or course, I obviously didn't think he'd be such a high pick, and I lol'd along with everybody else when the pick was announced).

I wouldn't be shocked if this is one of those picks that makes us all look stupid a few years down the road.

[tjsunstein]

I love the pick and I haven't been shy about it. The best pass rusher in the draft, that alone is worth a top 15 pick especially with the flaws and uncertainties with the rest of the OLB class. Now, that's not to say that Irvin doesn't have flaws of his own. The character concerns are overblown. Things that happened 5 years ago are being talked about like they happened over last offseason. Irvin is pure talent, with very little coaching at WVU on how to play his position. He's going to take some time to develop into a complete player and he needs to add some weight. You're not going to see Irvin making his presence felt against the run, and he's someone that you're going to have to supplement while he learns but he can be a 3 down player in the future. No one is a finished product coming out of college but with his athleticism and pure ability to get after the QB, I don't see a problem with taking a guy who can be a 2 down player for you immediately without any real obligation to play him more than that.

He's a top 15 pick, but people are going to have to learn how to temper expectations for him. He's raw, and he may not reach his full potential until year 3 or 4 but he can get after the QB week 1 and will continue to work.

Maybe I'm a bit more optimistic than most but I've been hyping Irvin since the preseason and I haven't seen anything to make me believe the hype isn't real.

[FUNBUNCHER]

People act like Bruce Irvin was the only guy in the first round drafted mainly because of his potential and upside.

It's hard to turn your nose up at an OLB/rush DE who's 6'3, 245# and ran an electronic 4.43.

I have a feeling Pete Carroll is going to have Irvin rushing from multiple points up and down the oline, standing up and with his hand in the dirt.
If he doesn't blow up in the pros, it won't be for lack of scheming him properly.

(Taylor Mays should switch positions.)

[Babylon]

The fact that the Jets, Ravens and Niners were said to all be targeting Irvin in the 1st round makes me feel really good about the pick. Thats the 3rd, 4th and 5th rated defenses in the NFL.

Oh and the fact that the team that actually took him built a 9th rated defense by plugging in guys that nobody else seemed to want...yeah I think they can evaluate defensive talent.

Not sure i'd confuse rumors with fact as far as all these other teams being interested, teams are interested in a lot of guys, doesnt mean they'd pull the trigger on them.

Nevertheless i'm warming to the pick. I think Irvin can be effective as a situational pass rusher but i'm getting half tired of drafting guys that come with baggage. I guess bringing back Leroy Hill proves that is not a concern to the front office.

On a more annoying topic, someone explain wasting a 3rd on Russell Wilson.

[AntoinCD]

People act like Bruce Irvin was the only guy in the first round drafted mainly because of his potential and upside.It's hard to turn your nose up at an OLB/rush DE who's 6'3, 245# and ran an electronic 4.43.

I have a feeling Pete Carroll is going to have Irvin rushing from multiple points up and down the oline, standing up and with his hand in the dirt.
If he doesn't blow up in the pros, it won't be for lack of scheming him properly.

(Taylor Mays should switch positions.)

Exactly. People can say what they want about perceived value and where a prospect is drafted, but not a lot of guys in the draft have the ability to do what Irvin can do.

If Irvin is a horrible pick then so is Poe, Brockers, Jones etc. These guys don't have "first round tape" but got drafted mainly on upside. Hell until NFL evaluators came out a few weeks ago about Chandler Jones most people had him at best a mid second rounder.

I really don't agree with the term reach because nobody knows what other teams are going to do. If you like a prospect enough you take him so another team doesn't. It happens all the time. Most people have such and such a prospect as a third rounder and some team takes him in the second. The media heads and draftniks say things like they could have taken him a round later blah blah blah. Why risk it? If Irvin is the best fit for what they need then why not take him? 31 teams may think Coples is a better player for them but obviously the Seahawks didn't.

I see no issue with the pick. If Irvin pans out then they look like geniuses. If he doesn't then they don't but teams miss on picks all the time.

[thetedginnshow]

Not sure i'd confuse rumors with fact as far as all these other teams being interested, teams are interested in a lot of guys, doesnt mean they'd pull the trigger on them.

Nevertheless i'm warming to the pick. I think Irvin can be effective as a situational pass rusher but i'm getting half tired of drafting guys that come with baggage. I guess bringing back Leroy Hill proves that is not a concern to the front office.

On a more annoying topic, someone explain wasting a 3rd on Russell Wilson.

Though I have faith in Flynn and personally think they should have built around him, some people are really high on Wilson. You don't necessarily know Flynn will be good, so having that competition would serve them well. I don't know. Wilson has the capability of overcoming his height deficiency, and if he can, that could be an excellent pick in retrospect.

[Iamcanadian]

Pete Carroll had better be able to handle this guy. He's spent time in jail and was only a part time starter for West Virginia. Sure, he has a huge upside but that is hoping that everything goes perfectly and I just don't see it happening in the real world.
This guy has huge warts and there is no way you can justify him going this high. When problem childern are handed a million dollars, look out, because trouble is sure to follow.
I can see him being worth the financial risk in round 2 but there is no way he deserved to be taken in round 1 as a part time player. I really see no justification for it except Carroll's belief that he can handle this problem child and experience shows these kinds of picks usually don't workout. Good luck Pete, your going to need it.

[YAYareaRB]

I have my doubts on that report about SF taking Irvin. Baalke had AJ Jenkins name in an envelope the night before the draft

[Caulibflower]

Pete Carroll had better be able to handle this guy. He's spent time in jail and was only a part time starter for West Virginia. Sure, he has a huge upside but that is hoping that everything goes perfectly and I just don't see it happening in the real world.
This guy has huge warts and there is no way you can justify him going this high. When problem childern are handed a million dollars, look out, because trouble is sure to follow.
I can see him being worth the financial risk in round 2 but there is no way he deserved to be taken in round 1 as a part time player. I really see no justification for it except Carroll's belief that he can handle this problem child and experience shows these kinds of picks usually don't workout. Good luck Pete, your going to need it.

This just sounds like a person who doesn't know a whole lot about Pete Carroll or the Seahawks defense, or Bruce Irvin for that matter. Anyone can do a google search and see that he's been arrested. He's not a huge financial risk because of restructuring, and he's a perfect fit for what we want to do. People can dis it all they want; if you look in Seahawks team forums you see the fans are excited after watching the tape and digging a little deeper. The same fans were pissed when we took Carpenter last year - the positive responses you're hearing aren't just bandwagon fans cheering whoever their team picks.

[P-L]

I don't think Bruce Irvin was as big of a reach as James Carpenter was last year.

[Caulibflower]

I refuse to believe other NFL teams are stupid enough to take a guy purely based on first step in the first round, save Von Miller whom I still regret not realizing how great his first step was.

Fwiw, Irvin might be even faster off the snap. Not nearly as polished or well-spoken as Von, but his speed is scary. It's elite.

I hope that tape had him standing up, because he played terrible as a down lineman.

And he won't be a "down lineman." He's a pass rusher. THAT is his position. He's going to be used like Aldon Smith was last year, except he's faster. I suspect Seattle's going to run some packages that look like a 5-2 with Irvin playing wide on the LOS. Other times, We'll have Red Bryant (330ish) Alan Branch (325, just had his best year his first year in Seattle) and Brandon Mebane (310, good penetrator). Not to mention we just drafted Jaye Howard, who will be able to play multiple positions across the line, and you're talking about a really big, athletic line that will allow us to occupy blockers while turning Clemons and Irvin loose at the same time - Carroll is going to find ways to get Bryant, Mebane, Howard, Clemons and Irvin on the field at the same time, and that's exactly the scenario in which Irvin ought to thrive - he's not going to get double-teamed, he's going to be on the edge bending towards the QB. Howard and Mebane will be able to penetrate in the middle, and with Clemons coming from the other side... I'm really happy with the way our line is looking right now.

Playing as a down lineman in a 3-3-5 defense at 245 lbs is a recipe for failure.

Playing as a down lineman in in the Seahawks defense at 245 is a recipe for Chris Clemons. Remember when the Seahawks traded for that guy? Everyone said he was terrible and the Seahawks were dumb for getting rid of Tapp. But Clemons has flourished at the LEO spot, and so will Bruce Irvin.

Yep. You obviously DO watch Seahawks games. The question isn't whether Irvin is a "true NFL defensive end," it's "Will he get to the passer in the Seahawks D?" and you never know for sure, but from looking at his athletic ability and knowing what the Seahawks do, I'm very optimistic.

AND - it's absolutely true that Irvin looks incredibly raw on tape, is a one-trick pony, is too light to be a consistent run defender, etc. And that's fine. The NFL draft isn't a stock market - it's not about acquiring a player everyone else wants just so that you possess something other people consider valuable - you want a guy who fits your schemes and will excel, and that's what Bruce Irvin looks like in Seattle's defense. He's long, fast, flexible and agile... And the whole time I was watching his tape, I was just thinking, "Man, if that guy can develop a spin move... Yikes." Because he gets deep in the field so fast offensive tackles are off balance. If he can reverse his momentum quickly, it'll be all over. One more thing, and then I'll wrap up this post - he's on the light side, definitely - put he does a good job of getting up under offensive lineman's chins and into their chest and neck area with his hands, and even if he's not an eye-catching bullrusher, he doesn't get pushed around as bad as you might expect for a guy who weighs less than 250 and used to play wide receiver and safety. But it's all about the speed anyways. I'm excited for preseason to start.

[Caulibflower]

I don't think Bruce Irvin was as big of a reach as James Carpenter was last year.

Right, that's what I'm saying. Unexpected, sure - but whereas Seahawks fans, after getting over the initial shock are thinking,

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lltzgnHi5F1qzib3wo1_400.jpg

Last year it was more like,

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/almost4lyfe/atheist_rage_face.jpg

[gpngc]

I want to reiterate this point: SITUATIONAL PASS RUSHER/FUTURE LEO WAS THE #2 NEED FOR THIS TEAM BEHIND MLB (which they filled in the 2nd).

Clarification: IRVIN IS NOT A ONE-TRICKY PONY AT THIS POINT. HE'S A NO-TRICK PONY. He doesn't run the arc or dip his shoulder and bend. He has no pass rush moves. He doesn't use his hands. He just uses insane speed, natural agility, and aggressiveness/relentlessness to make plays. Take from that what you will. Crazy upside like he believes (got 23 sacks even with inconsistent or non-existent technique) or the fact that he's not a technician will be his downfall?

And highlight: HIS 10-YARD SPLIT WAS 1.55. 1.55 at 245 pounds.

[Caulibflower]

I want to reiterate this point: SITUATIONAL PASS RUSHER/FUTURE LEO WAS THE #2 NEED FOR THIS TEAM BEHIND MLB (which they filled in the 2nd).

Clarification: IRVIN IS NOT A ONE-TRICKY PONY AT THIS POINT. HE'S A NO-TRICK PONY. He doesn't run the arc or dip his shoulder and bend. He has no pass rush moves. He doesn't use his hands. He just uses insane speed, natural agility, and aggressiveness/relentlessness to make plays. Take from that what you will. Crazy upside like he believes (got 23 sacks even with inconsistent or non-existent technique) or the fact that he's not a technician will be his downfall?

And highlight: HIS 10-YARD SPLIT WAS 1.55. 1.55 at 245 pounds.

I'll just go ahead and keep hitting at this tag-team style, because your all-caps is exactly right - Irvin was not drafted because of any technical skill he has developed - it's 100% crazy athleticism and speed which has already turned into a pass-rush production. This is some very, very high-quality clay for Pete Carroll to work with, and that's his specialty.

[703SKINS202]

Irvin is not a down lineman. The only reason he played DE his senior year is because we had absolutely no depth and the coaches wanted to find a way to get their best defender on the field for the majority of snaps. I would look more at his junior tape from an evaluation stand point. That season he was strictly used in pass rushing situations and ended up with 14 sacks in his first season of D-1A football. Seattle knew that and that's why he'll start out as a situational pass rusher backing up Clemons at the Leo.

He's extremely raw, he pretty much didn't have time to learn the LB position from a technique standpoint in his brief stint at WVU. Him and the coaches have both come out and said that they basically just let him loose and he relied on his God given speed to blow by everyone. Give him time to learn some real pass rush moves and how to disengage blockers and I think that a lot of people will be eating crow on Irvin in a few years.

His speed is ridiculous and his motor is relentless. Character concerns are over-hyped as well.

[SchizophrenicBatman]

The thought that this draft really lacked an elite pass rusher and he may have been pushed up (on teams boards at least) as a result isn't a bad one.

Of course, he went 15. Not top 10. Not 20 either but whatever. Seattle already traded down once and he's the guy they wanted. It's only a bad pick if he doesn't produce. If he's a "situational" guy who puts up 10 sacks a year I don't think they're going to be too upset

[Sportsfan486]

And highlight: HIS 10-YARD SPLIT WAS 1.55. 1.55 at 245 pounds.

Nick Perry had a 1.57 10-yard split at 271 pounds. .... Which is more impressive?

People comparing Bruce Irvin to Von Miller need to get a clue. Yup, they're similar speed wise and as fast twitch athletes. The difference? Von Miller is freakishly strong for his size. Bruce Irvin is not only undersized, but weak for that size. Von Miller is also a technical freak. They are so far from being comparable as prospects it's laughable.

Aldon Smith and Bruce Irvin? Really? Again. Aldon Smith is stronger and technically excellent. He slides off blocks.

Watch tape of Irvin when an OLineman gets his hands on him. He is absolutely and easily single-teamed and wiped out of the play.

Irvin has potential as a situational pass rusher. I will give people that. It will, however, take time and his upside is limited to that; a situational pass rusher. His floor is being cut before week 1 (obviously won't happen, but it's entirely possible you put him against an NFL OLine and he's neutralized 10/10 plays.) Why not take a Melvin Ingram or a Nick Perry, who have much higher upsides and less scary floors?

[FrankGore]

Yeah saying Irvin and Aldon Smith are similar in any facet other than being pass rushers is a joke. Aldon was 6-4 260 with a monster wingspan and the most powerful set of hands, to the point where he was just as effective rushing inside as he was outside. He also had moves and the ability to shed blockers.

Irvin is a missile, and perhaps Carroll will find ways to get that missile to the QB. But if he gets blocked, he's blocked until he finds a way to get stronger and learn some moves. Whether that can truly be learned is a bit unclear to me. I would've been keener on this pick if it was towards the end of the 1st, not smack dab in the middle. Yes, maybe the NFL was higher on him than we were and he might've been taken, but looking at who he is + the character concerns, I wouldn't feel comfortable with that at #15.

It's not a terrible pick just on face value but I would rather it have happened earlier.

[nepg]

I like Bruce Irvin, I just hate him for the Seahawks. They've been so bad at the draft in recent years... They had two perfect scheme fits who were potential Top 10 picks sitting right there with Coples & Ingram and they take a guy who doesn't have a position on a good team, nevermind a bad team that needs basic players to fill basic positions.

[Caulibflower]

Nick Perry had a 1.57 10-yard split at 271 pounds. .... Which is more impressive?

Nick Perry. Who also went in the first.

But Bruce Irvin's 3-cone and short shuttle times are half a second faster than Perry's

People comparing Bruce Irvin to Von Miller need to get a clue. Yup, they're similar speed wise and as fast twitch athletes. The difference? Von Miller is freakishly strong for his size. Bruce Irvin is not only undersized, but weak for that size.

Oh, so you mean how their combine numbers are almost identical, with the only discernible differences being Von's faster "official" 40 and higher vertical, and Irvin having 23 bench reps to Von's 21. But good opinion, man!

Von Miller is also a technical freak. They are so far from being comparable as prospects it's laughable.

No, that's about the only difference aside from their personal lives.

Watch tape of Irvin when an OLineman gets his hands on him. He is absolutely and easily single-teamed and wiped out of the play.

Like in running plays where he was lined up as a strong-side base end? Where he's not going to be in the NFL?

Irvin has potential as a situational pass rusher. I will give people that. It will, however, take time and his upside is limited to that; a situational pass rusher. His floor is being cut before week 1 (obviously won't happen, but it's entirely possible you put him against an NFL OLine and he's neutralized 10/10 plays.) Why not take a Melvin Ingram or a Nick Perry, who have much higher upsides and less scary floors?

If you think Melvin Ingram or Nick Perry have "higher upsides..."

I would've been keener on this pick if it was towards the end of the 1st, not smack dab in the middle.

A player's draft stock is not a commodity outside of the NFL draft. There is far too much talk in this thread about getting a "good deal." The Seahawks had reason to believe he wouldn't be there for their second pick, and they saw him as the defensive player that would provide the greatest impact for their team. As GM Schneider put it, it was the guy they wanted and they didn't want to get "cute" with it. If you're a GM and there's a guy there in the first round who you think will add more to your team than anyone else in the first round, you don't risk losing him before your next pick just because other teams are saying, "Well, WE would have picked someone else!" I'm sorry, but that's just dumb.

I like Bruce Irvin, I just hate him for the Seahawks. They've been so bad at the draft in recent years... They had two perfect scheme fits who were potential Top 10 picks sitting right there with Coples & Ingram and they take a guy who doesn't have a position on a good team, nevermind a bad team that needs basic players to fill basic positions.

Coples and Ingram's skillsets aren't as unique as Irvin's. They very well may be better overall players, and at this point in their careers, I freely grant that they are better football players. But Irvin does some things that are very rare, and that's why he got picked. He didn't get picked to be a three-dwon defensive end; he got drafted because Pete Carroll thinks he can turn him into a quarterback assassin. He's a creative coach; he's not drafting for any base set of defense, he's drafting personnel that give him a lot of schematic options. Safeties that play like linebackers but who can cover, pure cover safeties who can also tackle, 330lb defensive ends in a 4-3 front, players like Jason Jones and Jaye Howard who can also play at multiple spots along the line. He's going to use all those guys to create a certain defense, to pull the blocking a certain way to create seams or exposed edges, and then he's going to put Irvin in there and let him pin his ears back and race to the quarterback. It's exactly what Chris Clemons been doing the last two years, and now Pete Carroll gets a guy who's even more of a physical freak. The LEO is Pete Carroll's pet position, and Irvin is his handpicked guy. It's a good pick for Seattle, and it doesn't matter how many other players were higher on other team's boards; Irvin's addition makes them more dangerous than Coples or Ingram would have.

[Caddy]

Why do people get so butthurt when their teams picks get slammed?

[FrankGore]

A player's draft stock is not a commodity outside of the NFL draft. There is far too much talk in this thread about getting a "good deal." The Seahawks had reason to believe he wouldn't be there for their second pick, and they saw him as the defensive player that would provide the greatest impact for their team. As GM Schneider put it, it was the guy they wanted and they didn't want to get "cute" with it. If you're a GM and there's a guy there in the first round who you think will add more to your team than anyone else in the first round, you don't risk losing him before your next pick just because other teams are saying, "Well, WE would have picked someone else!" I'm sorry, but that's just dumb.



I get that. That doesn't mean I would have supported the other teams that wanted to take him early. The risk factor in the "risk-reward" is huge there. I just don't see a guy like him warranting that pick for anyone, coming into the NFL as basically a completely raw prospect who has a lot to figure out, both on and off the field.

[Caulibflower]

I get that. That doesn't mean I would have supported the other teams that wanted to take him early. The risk factor in the "risk-reward" is huge there. I just don't see a guy like him warranting that pick for anyone, coming into the NFL as basically a completely raw prospect who has a lot to figure out, both on and off the field.

Right, and to each his own - but that's kind of the point. There really isn't a "right way" to draft; there's plenty of luck, and creative people push the envelope. The point is not to say that everyone else should have valued him as highly as the Seahawks, but that it makes sense for the Seahawks to value him highly and furthermore, in thinking that there were other teams that did, too, it makes sense for them to take the player when they know they're going to get him. He's a niche player, he's not a technical player, but he could be special in this defense - this defense is his niche. This isn't a team drafting a player they don't know what to do with hoping he'll turn into Clay Matthews, this is Clay Matthews' coach drafting a ball of high-quality clay and thinking, "I know what to do with this." If there are 7 other teams (that being the number I've seen thrown around several times) who considered Irvin a top-15 pick, it's a matter of people's priorities for their own teams being much different - it just doesn't mean that it was a huge reach. You draft to get the players you think will make your team better, not the players people with an outside perspective think will make your team better.

[FUNBUNCHER]

Irvin ran a faster 40 at the combine than Miller(4.43 versus 4.46). And 23 reps in the bench is about a 350# bp.

Bruce Irvin needs coaching, his ceiling honestly is unknown. The fact that people can credibly compare him to Von Miller in any way tells me that Irvin was worth a top 20 pick.

[Caulibflower]

Why do people get so butthurt when their teams picks get slammed?

Same reason you use words like "butthurt" and "slammed."

TO PISS YOU OFF, *****!

:wink2:

[FrankGore]

And again, I'm not talking about anyone's outside perspective. It is my perspective, just like anyone else here has their own perspective. I wouldn't have spent a top 15 pick on Bruce Irvin.

We'll see if it pans out, I'm certainly not the one writing the story to his career. Maybe Carroll gets what he wants out of him and he becomes a 15-sack guy. I'm not telling you he won't be, I just think you can use this logic for ANY team drafting and say they made a great decision. IE. the Chiefs taking Dontari Poe is a "ball of clay", the Jets with Stephen Hill is a "ball of clay", etc. Usually when you have to use that term it means the guy has a long way to go as a football player. Which Bruce Irvin does. There's no disputing that.

The Seahawks are free to draft as they want and obviously they feel good about the choice, so do the fans. I think there's a chance he'll be great, but it involves a lot of things going right. We'll see if they do.

[Caddy]

Same reason you use words like "butthurt" and "slammed."

TO PISS YOU OFF, *****!

Why would I be pissed off? My team didn't draft Bruce Irvin.

Also love how OP asked what YOU think and then everyone immediately goes, what you think is wrong. What the pro scouts think is all that matters. Don't ask what people think if you don't want personal opinions.

[WCH]

Why would I be pissed off? My team didn't draft Bruce Irvin.

Also love how OP asked what YOU think and then everyone immediately goes, what you think is wrong. What the pro scouts think is all that matters. Don't ask what people think if you don't want personal opinions.

Yeah, I agree. The Appeal to Authority arguments are getting a bit out of hand now that the Draft is over.

[FrankGore]

Yeah, I agree. The Appeal to Authority arguments are getting a bit out of hand now that the Draft is over.

We're dangerously close to "they're in the NFL, they know more than you" statements. Often times, they don't know very much. That's why there's constant upheaval and firings each year. Very few teams have truly earned the trust of that type of argument.

[Caulibflower]

And again, I'm not talking about anyone's outside perspective. It is my perspective, just like anyone else here has their own perspective. I wouldn't have spent a top 15 pick on Bruce Irvin.

We'll see if it pans out, I'm certainly not the one writing the story to his career. Maybe Carroll gets what he wants out of him and he becomes a 15-sack guy. I'm not telling you he won't be, I just think you can use this logic for ANY team drafting and say they made a great decision. IE. the Chiefs taking Dontari Poe is a "ball of clay", the Jets with Stephen Hill is a "ball of clay", etc. Usually when you have to use that term it means the guy has a long way to go as a football player. Which Bruce Irvin does. There's no disputing that.

The Seahawks are free to draft as they want and obviously they feel good about the choice, so do the fans. I think there's a chance he'll be great, but it involves a lot of things going right. We'll see if they do.

Went back to re-read your post just to make sure I wasn't creating an argument where there wasn't one, and realized I'd been kind of unclear, at least as far as my intention in including that part of your post in my response. I was thinking about how people talk about prospects' value; you say he's a "late-first, but not a mid-first guy," or something along those lines. Thing is, that doesn't take into account the teams that are waiting in the late first, mid-first, or anywhere else. So it's not you saying "I think he's a late-first" and then me saying, "No! you're wrong!"

It's not simply a matter of how we rank them against other prospects, but according to the needs of the team - and I suppose my point is that I think that is how TEAMS do it. As draftniks, we never rank for teams. So when a guy like Irvin goes high, we go, "Ooooh... has got a lot of work to do. I had him in the 30's." But for an NFL team, particularly one where he could be an impact player at a position of need, they're just thinking, "This player excites us more than anyone else on our board, let's take him now instead of hoping he doesn't fall."

I don't know. I'm just seeing a lot of, "There were so many prospects I had ranked higher!"-types of responses, and I think the fact that we are basically making ranking lists of players we think have the best chance of being successful pros, the perspective of a coach or GM considering which guy they're going to draft is just a whole different animal.

[Caulibflower]

Why would I be pissed off? My team didn't draft Bruce Irvin.

Also love how OP asked what YOU think and then everyone immediately goes, what you think is wrong. What the pro scouts think is all that matters. Don't ask what people think if you don't want personal opinions.


We're getting into flame territory. I wasn't pissed off, I didn't think you were, either, and was just fanning the fire a little when I saw an ember. Now for a little water:

My point, aside from flaming, is to simply point out that people who have watched a lot of Seahawks games and are familiar with Pete Carroll see this as a much better fit than people who don't, and I'm pointing out the significance of that. Yeah, it's a thread asking for everyone's opinion on a pick. It's also the only thread of its kind on the front page. So when you get people arguing about it, is this really surprising to you? It's there because its controversial. If you don't want to see why some people are arguing that this is a good pick, why scroll down the page beyond the poll? Or is it just that you want to read posts written by people who think it's a bad pick?

Yeah, I agree. The Appeal to Authority arguments are getting a bit out of hand now that the Draft is over.

It's not an appeal to authority argument to justify the pick. If anything, it's just saying, "Huh, I didn't realize they were that set on him." It's a pick that was surprising because of the way draftniks rank players, but makes more sense than it appears at first glance if you look into the kind of personnel the team already has and what the team's coaches want to do. It's a controversial thread, and I follow the team that picked the player. Out of all the topics I might want to post about, this is one where I know a bit more about the situation than maybe a lot of people who are talking about it. And... this is a forum.

[Caddy]

We're getting into flame territory. I wasn't pissed off, I didn't think you were, either, and was just fanning the fire a little when I saw an ember. Now for a little water:

My point, aside from flaming, is to simply point out that people who have watched a lot of Seahawks games and are familiar with Pete Carroll see this as a much better fit than people who don't, and I'm pointing out the significance of that. Yeah, it's a thread asking for everyone's opinion on a pick. It's also the only thread of its kind on the front page. So when you get people arguing about it, is this really surprising to you? It's there because its controversial. If you don't want to see why some people are arguing that this is a good pick, why scroll down the page beyond the poll? Or is it just that you want to read posts written by people who think it's a bad pick?



It's not an appeal to authority argument to justify the pick. If anything, it's just saying, "Huh, I didn't realize they were that set on him." It's a pick that was surprising because of the way draftniks rank players, but makes more sense than it appears at first glance if you look into the kind of personnel the team already has and what the team's coaches want to do. It's a controversial thread, and I follow the team that picked the player. Out of all the topics I might want to post about, this is one where I know a bit more about the situation than maybe a lot of people who are talking about it. And... this is a forum.

I like watching Seahawks fans defend the pick.

[superfly69]

Shane's got this:

onbBiAO5srU

...and it's pretty epic.

This was awesome....

[superfly69]

I like watching Seahawks fans defend the pick.

There is no defending Bruce Irvin at #15. At #25 you would have a peanut size of an argument. At #15...No.

[LonghornsLegend]

I can't get Everette Brown out of my head when I see him.

[gpngc]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d828c1cdc/article/jets-cursed-out-seahawks-after-they-grabbed-bruce-irvin?module=HP11_headline_stack

[703SKINS202]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d828c1cdc/article/jets-cursed-out-seahawks-after-they-grabbed-bruce-irvin?module=HP11_headline_stack
That makes me happy.

[Matthew Jones]

#15 was a little bit early but I love the fit in Seattle's defense and I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being a dynamic edge rusher for the Seahawks, so I can't criticize the pick too much. I did think Coples would be a better value though.

[Caddy]

That makes me happy.

I've seen other reports saying they wouldn't have taken him if he was on the board at #16, so take that story with a grain of salt.

[GoRavens]

Not a bad pick.
If Seattle uses his talents correctly, he could easily be a big time passrusher.
Of course, we were all shocked. But apparently teams had a first round grade on him the entire time.
Pete Carroll must have a good plan in mind: With added muscle mass, a more physically aquired demenor and mmore consistent aggressiveness, Irvin will flourish.
But if injured, and used incorrectly, and poor work habits; he'll become a bust.
Irvin is a stud though. so he'll be just peachy doin work on QBs

[TACKLE]

I can't get Everette Brown out of my head when I see him.

As someone who loved Everette Brown (his spin move was nasty), he wasn't even close to being in the same level athletically as Bruce. Totally different caliber athlete.

[Iamcanadian]

This just sounds like a person who doesn't know a whole lot about Pete Carroll or the Seahawks defense, or Bruce Irvin for that matter. Anyone can do a google search and see that he's been arrested. He's not a huge financial risk because of restructuring, and he's a perfect fit for what we want to do. People can dis it all they want; if you look in Seahawks team forums you see the fans are excited after watching the tape and digging a little deeper. The same fans were pissed when we took Carpenter last year - the positive responses you're hearing aren't just bandwagon fans cheering whoever their team picks.

Like fans know a good pick when they see one. Of course, he has talent and certainly speed but he is as raw as a prospect can get, has a criminal past, played part time for his college team. He is the very definition of a workout warrior who will either bust or produce but at #15, that is a pretty high risk IMO. Round 2, I can see the risk vs reward principal but at #15, it is just not worth it when you can get a pretty solid pro prospect who carries minimal risk.

Personally, I like Carroll so I hope it works out for him but I see absolutely no way he can justify this pick at #15.

[Mufasa]

I think it was a bad move, but it could work out. I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes a good pass rush specialist. But I also wouldn't be surprised if he was out of the league in 3 years. That's someone you take around 45, not 15.

[tjsunstein]

Irvin won't be out of the league in 3 years because it might take him just that to learn the ins and out of the position that he wasnt coached. He's extremely raw, people need to understand that.

[Mr. Goosemahn]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d828c1cdc/article/jets-cursed-out-seahawks-after-they-grabbed-bruce-irvin?module=HP11_headline_stack

One general manager called Irvin the "hottest player in the draft."

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0xmh6rCEq1qbnggp.jpg

[Stubbs]

I like Bruce Irvin, I just hate him for the Seahawks. They've been so bad at the draft in recent years... They had two perfect scheme fits who were potential Top 10 picks sitting right there with Coples & Ingram and they take a guy who doesn't have a position on a good team, nevermind a bad team that needs basic players to fill basic positions.

I don't know about that.. So far in 2 drafts of the Pete Carroll/ John Schneider era we've gotten 4 pro bowl talents in:

Earl Thomas, Kam Chancellor, Richard Sherman (Pro bowl talent) and Russell Okung (Pro bowl talent when healthy)

2 solid starters in:

KJ Wright and Doug Baldwin (UDFA)

4 early draft picks that have flashed potential, too early to give up on in:

Golden Tate, Walter Thurmond, James Carpenter and John Moffit.

They've been far from a bad drafting team.

[Mr. Goosemahn]

I don't know about that.. So far in 2 drafts of the Pete Carroll/ John Schneider era we've gotten 4 pro bowl talents in:

Earl Thomas, Kam Chancellor, Richard Sherman (Pro bowl talent) and Russell Okung (Pro bowl talent when healthy)

2 solid starters in:

KJ Wright and Doug Baldwin (UDFA)

4 early draft picks that have flashed potential, too early to give up on in:

Golden Tate, Walter Thurmond, James Carpenter and John Moffit.

They've been far from a bad drafting team.

I can't for the life of me understand what they are doing at QB. In two years they have signed Tarvaris Jackson and Matt Flynn, and used two third round picks on Charlie Whitehurst and now Russell Wilson. Out of all 4, the only one I can understand is Flynn.

Tarvaris is bad, everyone knew that. The Charlie Whitehurst experiment was a miserable failure. Wilson, while talented, is far morel likely to be a solid backup like Seneca Wallace than the next Drew Brees. Flynn showed something, but evaluating from what will, in all likelihood, be the best game of his career is tough. Still, he's probably the best of the bunch.

I'll agree that they've made some good moves recently, but they've made plenty of bad ones too.

[OzTitan]

"Reach" and "steal" are terms used by the draft following masses to describe picks relative to how they, or popular opinion, ranked the player's value pre-draft.

Whether or not a pick could be labelled the same when using the reference of actual team rankings is another matter, and far more relevant. Unfortunately it's also very hard to know this in any clear sense.

Some picks are very obvious reaches but I tend to think these are actually quite rare in the NFL. To me, if a guy you want to pick probably won't be there the next time you pick, you:

1 - Try and trade down to achieve better value.
2 - If this isn't very easy to accomplish with low risk, just take the damn player.

With rookies now costing so much less than before, it's hardly about where you took the player anymore (if it ever really was, which I don't think it really was) - it's much more about whether your interest in the player was smart at all, regardless of placement.

[703SKINS202]

"Reach" and "steal" are terms used by the draft following masses to describe picks relative to how they, or popular opinion, ranked the player's value pre-draft.

Whether or not a pick could be labelled the same when using the reference of actual team rankings is another matter, and far more relevant. Unfortunately it's also very hard to know this in any clear sense.

Some picks are very obvious reaches but I tend to think these are actually quite rare in the NFL. To me, if a guy you want to pick probably won't be there the next time you pick, you:

1 - Try and trade down to achieve better value.
2 - If this isn't very easy to accomplish with low risk, just take the damn player.

With rookies now costing so much less than before, it's hardly about where you took the player anymore (if it ever really was, which I don't think it really was) - it's much more about whether your interest in the player was smart at all, regardless of placement.
Agreed.

It's the same reason why I'll laugh when Ryan Matthews goes before Drew Brees in my fantasy draft.

[K Train]

i think they were able to trade down a few spots and still get their guy

general consensus is he was going to be picked soon anyway, i think they went about it right....and it kept him off the jets.

i do think hes a bad fit for them and will probably fail. Seattle is going to be the place where linebackers go to die. First curry and now irvin....maybe he'll be good with another team in a few year lol

[fenikz]

can't quote the thread because it's locked but
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2886710&#post2886710

[Babylon]

Haven't a clue how Irvin will turn out but i'm pretty sure that Michael Floyd and David DeCastro will be stars. Seattle needed to address the offensive side of the ball first.

[Brothgar]

y9s85CjEexg

Brandon Thompson #63 washed down Irvin on several occasions forced him to over pursue the QB on several occasions (or he did it himself)

O2YvJzcZAkQ

I want you to concentrate on the run plays for a moment. Washed down, out of position, I think pancaked.

bKJLlrGp4ow
He looks great in this one but take note. Where is he lining up on this one? Most of the time he is lining up wide 9 which is more similar to what a 3-4 OLB would line up as oppose to a 4-3 anything. Which explains many things.

7 teams had him rated in the top 15 if you believe the PFT report.
The ones we know of are...
Seahawks
Jets
49ers
(bears?)
I'd be willing to bet the other 3 are 3-4 teams as well.

Drafting a player who is suck a liability against the run in the top 15 is vastly overvaluing him specially in a division that is rather run heavy being the 49ers (one of the best run teams in the league) The Cards ( who may start running much more if Wells and Williams can stay healthy and Kolb continues to suck) and the Rams (Steven Jackson anyone?) Will he close out a 3rd and long sure but is that worth a top 15 pick?

[D-Unit]

I've been a Bruce Irvin fan throught the draft process. I really wanted him on the Cowboys and would've used as early as a 2nd round pick on him. When Seattle drafted him, it was surprising for sure... but I'm not gonna bash them for taking him. He has insane upside and if you are bashing him because of the limitations you saw on him in college, then that might be your own mistake. Irvin will continue to grow as a player in both skill and stature. I really wouldn't doubt it if he became one of the best pass rushers in the league among the likes of Demarcus Ware. Pass rushing is a skill that commonly translates from college to the pros, so I think Irvin has a great chance at success in the NFL.

[Brothgar]

I've been a Bruce Irvin fan throught the draft process. I really wanted him on the Cowboys and would've used as early as a 2nd round pick on him. When Seattle drafted him, it was surprising for sure... but I'm not gonna bash them for taking him. He has insane upside and if you are bashing him because of the limitations you saw on him in college, then that might be your own mistake. Irvin will continue to grow as a player in both skill and stature. I really wouldn't doubt it if he became one of the best pass rushers in the league among the likes of Demarcus Ware. Pass rushing is a skill that commonly translates from college to the pros, so I think Irvin has a great chance at success in the NFL.

Here is the ultimate problem. You talk about how great he would have been on the Cowboys and compare him to D-Ware (which is a reach IMO) it tells me that he is a 3-4 player. If he got drafted in the 3-4 I'd have no problem with it.

[Caulibflower]

Like fans know a good pick when they see one. Of course, he has talent and certainly speed but he is as raw as a prospect can get, has a criminal past, played part time for his college team. He is the very definition of a workout warrior who will either bust or produce but at #15, that is a pretty high risk IMO. Round 2, I can see the risk vs reward principal but at #15, it is just not worth it when you can get a pretty solid pro prospect who carries minimal risk.

Personally, I like Carroll so I hope it works out for him but I see absolutely no way he can justify this pick at #15.

Wasn't about "fans knowing good picks," in general, more in in reference to draftniks. It was that people like me, who follow the draft and know a bit about football, aren't just pumping up whatever player our team picked. The folks who watch the Seahawks play every week know there's a role in our defense just waiting for a guy like Bruce Irvin. That's all I meant.

And please, can we stop talking about how he was an idiot teenager 4 or 5 years ago as if he was running a mafia operation? He was a ******* hoodlum kid who ran with the drug crowd, but he realized it wasn't going anywhere good and got himself around better people.

[gpngc]

y9s85CjEexg

Brandon Thompson #63 washed down Irvin on several occasions forced him to over pursue the QB on several occasions (or he did it himself)

O2YvJzcZAkQ

I want you to concentrate on the run plays for a moment. Washed down, out of position, I think pancaked.

bKJLlrGp4ow
He looks great in this one but take note. Where is he lining up on this one? Most of the time he is lining up wide 9 which is more similar to what a 3-4 OLB would line up as oppose to a 4-3 anything. Which explains many things.

7 teams had him rated in the top 15 if you believe the PFT report.
The ones we know of are...
Seahawks
Jets
49ers
(bears?)
I'd be willing to bet the other 3 are 3-4 teams as well.

Drafting a player who is suck a liability against the run in the top 15 is vastly overvaluing him specially in a division that is rather run heavy being the 49ers (one of the best run teams in the league) The Cards ( who may start running much more if Wells and Williams can stay healthy and Kolb continues to suck) and the Rams (Steven Jackson anyone?) Will he close out a 3rd and long sure but is that worth a top 15 pick?

For the most part, I agree with your analysis of his performance in those games.

However, the Seahawks boast one of the leagues top run-stuffing defenses, and in his first season, Irvin likely won't need to play the run much. Their No. 2 need behind MLB was situational pass rusher/backup LEO/potential future replacement for Chris Clemons.

Also, the scheme is a hybrid. He will not be matched up against guards ever again in his life. Or in a 3-man front on anything other than 3rd and forever. He'll play 7-8-9, standing up, etc. And he's got the frame to get bigger and stronger and the toughness and relentlessness to improve against the run. But for his first year, he may be a liability, but he won't be counted on to help the already stout run D.

It's obvious he needs refinement. But the tools are scary. In a class with a bunch of pass rushers with question marks, I don't think he's a bad choice, especially considering the defense he was drafted to in terms of personnel, coaches maximizing potential, and scheme.

But kudos for bringing a thought-out argument with some basis to the table.

[D-Unit]

Here is the ultimate problem. You talk about how great he would have been on the Cowboys and compare him to D-Ware (which is a reach IMO) it tells me that he is a 3-4 player. If he got drafted in the 3-4 I'd have no problem with it.
If you think the base scheme will be the end all to him, then I think you'll be sorely mistaken. I think people too often look at the base scheme and then proceed to judgement, when the fact of the matter a team may only run their base 30 or 50% of the time. The Seahawks are gonna find ways to put Irvin in a favorable position to succeed. There's no doubt about it. If they find Irvin is more successful playing OLB in a 3-4 formation, then they will probably run more of those kinds of packages. It's not like teams don't change formations during the game, and it's not like it's impossible for him to be useful in a 4-3 either.

...and I was only comparing Irvin to Ware as a pass rusher, not an all around player.

That said, I respect your opinion. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this particular topic.

[gpngc]

Wasn't about "fans knowing good picks," in general, more in in reference to draftniks. It was that people like me, who follow the draft and know a bit about football, aren't just pumping up whatever player our team picked. The folks who watch the Seahawks play every week know there's a role in our defense just waiting for a guy like Bruce Irvin. That's all I meant.

And please, can we stop talking about how he was an idiot teenager 4 or 5 years ago as if he was running a mafia operation? He was a ******* hoodlum kid who ran with the drug crowd, but he realized it wasn't going anywhere good and got himself around better people.

Based on a Yahoo pre-draft feature, I believe this assessment of his character is spot-on. I actually think he might be more high-character based on how he completely changed his life and worked hard to get to where he is after coming from a rough background.

Then he messed up and allegedly broke a sign the night of his pro day. I'd guess he was drunk and broke a sign. Stupid, sure. But obviously some teams didn't care much. It wasn't drug trafficking or even assault.

Raise your hand if you've never done something stupid and/or violent while drunk partying in college...

[703SKINS202]

"The best pass rusher on the team is usually the defensive end to the open side of the field. That puts him on the quarterback's blind side and makes him a C gap player in this defense. We often align him wider than this in order to give him a better angle of attack and allow him to play in space. We align him a yard outside of the offensive tackle most of the time. He has to play C gap run support but at the same time he is rushing the passer like it is third and ten. He has to be able to close down however if the tackle blocks down on him."

"(He) has to be one of your best football players. Size does not matter as much. We want an athletic player who can move around."
- Pete Carroll on Leo Position http://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/7/22/2281978/assessing-the-seahawks-roster-defensive-ends

I think that could be the knock on Irvin. Will he be able to consistently disengage the tackle or even a double team to his side. His tape would say that's not his strong suit but that was playing a down lineman for the first time in a 3-3-5.

In 2010, Bruce came into WVU and played around 235 lbs. He was used as a pass rush specialist since he really didn't have time to even learn a position. His relentless motor and abilities allowed him to get 14 sacks, mostly all on passing situations when the team knew they needed to block him.

In 2011, our depth at the DE spot was non-existent. The coaches asked him if he would bulk up a bit to see if he could keep his speed. He lost a little ability but settled at 245 playing weight which he is now and was able to keep his edge. He really was never coached to the position however in our 3-3-5. He knew his assignments and wasn't the greatest against the run but the value of him as a pass rusher forced us to play him on running downs to get best use of him; due to the lack of depth on our roster.

So, basically like some are saying I think his talents best suited him for an OLB position in a 3-4 where his deficiencies could be masked easier but I do think Seattle got the best pure pass rusher in this draft. The question will be how much they ask Bruce to add on to his frame and how much is sustainable. Can he play at 255-260 and still keep his edge? I'm not sure but I do know that for now he can come in and definitely have an impact in this league. If the Seahawks use him as a rush specialist in certain situations and packages he will have the best opportunity to shine early on while he grows as a player and into his NFL frame.

I wouldn't doubt him at this point, the kid really is pretty new to the game and given some time and if coached right, could be one of the best. For now, we'll wait and see.

[gpngc]

- Pete Carroll on Leo Position http://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/7/22/2281978/assessing-the-seahawks-roster-defensive-ends

I think that could be the knock on Irvin. Will he be able to consistenly disengage the tackle or even a double team to his side. His tape would say that's not his strong suit but that was playing a down lineman for the fisrt time in a 3-3-5.

In 2010, Bruce came into WVU and played around 235 lbs. He was used as a pass rush specialist since he really didn't have time to even learn a position. His relentless motor and abilities allowed him to get 14 sacks, mostly all on passing situations when the team knew they needed to block him.

In 2011, our depth at the DE spot was non-existent. The coaches asked him if he would bulk up a bit to see if he could keep his speed. He lost a little ability but settled at 245 playing weight which he is now and was able to keep his edge. He really was never coached to the position however in our 3-3-5. He knew his assignments and wasn't the greatest against the run but the value of him as a pass rusher forced us to play him on running downs to get best use of him; due to the lack of depth on our roster.

So, basically like some our saying I think his talents best suited him for an OLB position in a 3-4 where his dificencies could be masked easier but I do think Seattle got the best pure pash rusher in this draft. The question will be how much they ask Bruce to add on to his frame and how much is sustainable. Can he play at 255-260 and still keep his edge? I'm not sure but I do know that for now he can come in and defintely have an impact in this league. If the Seahawks use him as a rush specialist in certain situations and packages he will have the best opportunity to shine early on while he grows as a player and into his NFL frame.

I wouldn't doubt him at this point, the kid really is pretty new to the game and given some time and if coached right, could be one of the best. For now, we'll wait and see.

Or this...

"The best pass rusher on the team is usually the defensive end to the open side of the field. That puts him on the quarterback's blind side and makes him a C gap player in this defense. We often align him wider than this in order to give him a better angle of attack and allow him to play in space. We align him a yard outside of the offensive tackle most of the time. He has to play C gap run support but at the same time he is rushing the passer like it is third and ten. He has to be able to close down however if the tackle blocks down on him."

"(He) has to be one of your best football players. Size does not matter as much. We want an athletic player who can move around."

If you want to knock him as a player based on his performance at WVU, that's fine. He's raw and has flaws in his game.

But the 'It's not worth it, situational pass rusher, bad run defender, too small, doesn't work in a 4-3, out of position', yada, yada, yada is all horse ****.

[703SKINS202]

Or this...

"The best pass rusher on the team is usually the defensive end to the open side of the field. That puts him on the quarterback's blind side and makes him a C gap player in this defense. We often align him wider than this in order to give him a better angle of attack and allow him to play in space. We align him a yard outside of the offensive tackle most of the time. He has to play C gap run support but at the same time he is rushing the passer like it is third and ten. He has to be able to close down however if the tackle blocks down on him."

"(He) has to be one of your best football players. Size does not matter as much. We want an athletic player who can move around."

If you want to knock him as a player based on his performance at WVU, that's fine. He's raw and has flaws in his game.

But the 'It's not worth it, situational pass rusher, bad run defender, too small, doesn't work in a 4-3, out of position', yada, yada, yada is all horse ****.
Just to be clear I'm not bashing him at all. I went to WVU so I'm kind of biased in my defense. I'm just trying to give you my best unbiased assessment of him, like I said in my post they got the best pass rusher and will find ways to use him the right way. I just think we was best suited for a traditional 3-4 scheme.

[gpngc]

Just to be clear I'm not bashing him at all. I went to WVU so I'm kind of biased in my defense. I'm just trying to give you my best unbiased assessment of him, like I said in my post they got the best pass rusher and will find ways to use him the right way. I just think we was best suited for a traditional 3-4 scheme.

You've been clear. I just think that Seattle's scheme/situation is the best possible fit considering he hasn't done much work standing up and won't be counted on to play the run effectively in his first season at all.

[Iamcanadian]

You've been clear. I just think that Seattle's scheme/situation is the best possible fit considering he hasn't done much work standing up and won't be counted on to play the run effectively in his first season at all.

I though ex HC Green of Arizona summed it up pretty well on NFL Network today.
Irvin was rated to go in round 2 by almost every team and in round 1, you take round 1 talent, you shouldn't reach for a prospect especially at #15.
He felt, Pete Carroll interfered with his scouting department in Seattle's first 3 picks and called all the shots. He said from the GM's he talked to, Seattle's second round pick was rated to go in round 3 and Wilson was a round 4 prospect.
This is what often happens when you allow your team's HC to make picks like Carpenter last year. They draft for immediate need and put BPA to the side. Very few HC's have ever made good drafters, most have been flops in this department with a few good exceptions but they are rare.
Carroll will rise or fall on his drafting as will Seattle.

[Shere Khan]

What do I think?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/178/34brucelit3.jpg/

I think his strikes are pretty solid, but his throws and wake-up game are severly lacking.

[gpngc]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/dennis_dillon/05/17/bruce.irvin.seahawks/index.html?sct=nfl_t11_a0

The Seahawks have a plan and a vision for Irvin, 24, who played only two years of Division-I football following a checkered adolescence. He'll back up end Chris Clemons (11 sacks last season) at the "Leo" position, then play opposite of Clemons on pass-rushing downs.

The Leo position is similar to the old elephant position that Leslie O'Neal (Chargers), Fred Dean (49ers), Charles Haley (Cowboys) and Bryce Paup (Packers) played. Essentially, it's a 3-4 outside linebacker who rushes the passer about 75 percent of the time. The Leo lines up on the open side, away from the tight end.


"I heard the media refer to him as a one-trick pony," said Kirelawich, now an assistant coach at Arizona. "I told the guys in Seattle that the golden goose was a one-trick goose. We'd all like to have one, wouldn't we?

"If you had a guy you thought could get you off the field on third down, and be pretty damn effective at it, that's the guy I want on my team. He'll learn to play the run. He'll get better."


The Seahawks have measured Irvin at just over 6-foot-3 and 248 pounds -- 75 pounds less than Red Bryant, their run-stopping end. While Irvin is too light and too raw to anchor against the run, he has the speed to make pass protectors quiver in their stances. His 4.46 40-time at the NFL Scouting Combine was the fastest among defensive linemen, and his 6.70 in the three-cone drill was the fastest of ANY player.

"Football saved my life. I'm going to bust my butt and work hard in everything I do. I'd rather die than prove [the doubters] right."


If he busts due to lack of work ethic, then he just played the **** out of SI.

[Mufasa]

Or he's gonna pull a Gaines Adams.

[SenorGato]

They gifted Los Yets quite possibly the most talented and productive pass rusher in the draft, though the lazy SOB did lose 2.5 sacks as a senior. To the Seahawks I offer my thanks.

[bigbluedefense]

I didn't think it was a bad pick. He was widely considered the best pass rusher in the draft. So why was it such a shock that he went that early in the 1st round? It's a passing league, and he's the best pass rusher in the draft. He is valued as a 1st rounder in my eyes for that reason alone.

I think the term "situational pass rusher" no longer applies in the NFL. If anything, we have situational run stuffers in the league, but if you rush the passer, and you do it well, your value is very high.

Did I think it was a reach? Yes based on what I heard on TV, but did it surprise me? Absolutely not. He's not a finished product, but he can rush the passer with the best of them, the rest just needs to be refined. If he can keep his head straight, this will wind up being a great draft pick.

Most internet draft boards don't really know what they're talking about. That's the truth. That's one thing I learned over the past 3 years, we all act like we know what we're talking about, but we don't really know ****.

[Rosebud]

I didn't think it was a bad pick. He was widely considered the best pass rusher in the draft. So why was it such a shock that he went that early in the 1st round? It's a passing league, and he's the best pass rusher in the draft. He is valued as a 1st rounder in my eyes for that reason alone.

I think the term "situational pass rusher" no longer applies in the NFL. If anything, we have situational run stuffers in the league, but if you rush the passer, and you do it well, your value is very high.

Did I think it was a reach? Yes based on what I heard on TV, but did it surprise me? Absolutely not. He's not a finished product, but he can rush the passer with the best of them, the rest just needs to be refined. If he can keep his head straight, this will wind up being a great draft pick.

Most internet draft boards don't really know what they're talking about. That's the truth. That's one thing I learned over the past 3 years, we all act like we know what we're talking about, but we don't really know ****.

That right there is why the pick makes absolute sense. Teams spend so much time spread out to stop the pass that playing run first doesn't make sense. When teams like the giants win the superbowl with a defense that played a base nickel and had great success, criticizing a player as a situational pass rusher is just silly.

[Saints-Tigers]

Yea, if they really feel like he was the best pass rusher in the draft,why is it a reach?

[SenorGato]

I didn't think it was a bad pick. He was widely considered the best pass rusher in the draft. So why was it such a shock that he went that early in the 1st round? It's a passing league, and he's the best pass rusher in the draft. He is valued as a 1st rounder in my eyes for that reason alone.

I think the term "situational pass rusher" no longer applies in the NFL. If anything, we have situational run stuffers in the league, but if you rush the passer, and you do it well, your value is very high.

Did I think it was a reach? Yes based on what I heard on TV, but did it surprise me? Absolutely not. He's not a finished product, but he can rush the passer with the best of them, the rest just needs to be refined. If he can keep his head straight, this will wind up being a great draft pick.

Most internet draft boards don't really know what they're talking about. That's the truth. That's one thing I learned over the past 3 years, we all act like we know what we're talking about, but we don't really know ****.

Meh I like the idea behind the pick...which you've outlined...and I do think he's amongst the best movers in this draft...I also think he really fits that role they had Clemons playing last year.

That said, I don't consider him the best pass rusher in the draft and I'm not so sure that was widely considered at all. He's amongst them and I guess that's all that really matters.

[bigbluedefense]

Meh I like the idea behind the pick...which you've outlined...and I do think he's amongst the best movers in this draft...I also think he really fits that role they had Clemons playing last year.

That said, I don't consider him the best pass rusher in the draft and I'm not so sure that was widely considered at all. He's amongst them and I guess that's all that really matters.

This was a pretty mediocre pass rusher draft to be honest. I only liked Mercilus but he needed development, Chandler Jones was intriguing and I liked him for the Giants as a developmental guy but his lack of production was worrisome, and I liked Andre Branch as an Osi type of pass rusher and Curry as another potential Osi, but there was no slam dunk DE in this draft.

I think the problem is too often we're looking at these prospects as finished products. Don't look for refined traits, look for guys who have great ability and potential. The low ceiling high floor guys almost always wind up as mediocre NFL players, but are rated highly by the Mel Kipers of the world.

The NFL doesn't view those players the same way. Irvin was a guy with an explosive step, hands down the best first step in the draft, a frame that can grow, and a rawness that can be coached up.

Those traits make him the best pass rusher in the draft. You can teach moves, you can add weight, but you can't teach explosion. The rest of these pass rushers all had some significant flaws. That's why Irvin was the best.

I do like Mercilus a lot though, and Branch has potential as does Curry. Jones...depends on how he's used.

But I can understand the Irvin pick. It makes sense.

[SenorGato]

Wow you sleep on Coples. I get that he's more complete/we rounded than those guys so no one calls him a pure pass rusher, but of the guys who can rush the passer he's probably the most talented of them all. He also happens to be the biggest, most productive, and most well rounded of the bunch.

I loved the Coples pick on draft night and the further away we are from the draft the more I like it. I consider it a gift from Pete Carroll to the Jets, making up for Mark Sanchez.

I like all those guys some, and I think Mercilus ended up with a coach who will really play him to his strengths. Jokes might be alright with Wilfork doing HOF level grunt work for him. Curry is easy to like and root for, and Branch has talents.

I think the Seahawks will fine with Irvin. They have a player like him already and have showed they know how to use that player. I can live with that turning out fine since the Jets got who they wanted. I don't see him as Ware 2.0 or anything, though he could be heck for passers.

Give me a choice of all of last years DEs and I take Coples first ten out of ten times.

[SenorGato]

I actually question if Irvin has much room to add to his frame. His skills/talents project, but I'm not sure how much room he has to actually get bigger and better. I think he's a plug and play in one role and see what roles he learns to fill after pass rusher.

[bigbluedefense]

Wow you sleep on Coples. I get that he's more complete/we rounded than those guys so no one calls him a pure pass rusher, but of the guys who can rush the passer he's probably the most talented of them all. He also happens to be the biggest, most productive, and most well rounded of the bunch.

I loved the Coples pick on draft night and the further away we are from the draft the more I like it. I consider it a gift from Pete Carroll to the Jets, making up for Mark Sanchez.

I like all those guys some, and I think Mercilus ended up with a coach who will really play him to his strengths. Jokes might be alright with Wilfork doing HOF level grunt work for him. Curry is easy to like and root for, and Branch has talents.

I think the Seahawks will fine with Irvin. They have a player like him already and have showed they know how to use that player. I can live with that turning out fine since the Jets got who they wanted. I don't see him as Ware 2.0 or anything, though he could be heck for passers.

Give me a choice of all of last years DEs and I take Coples first ten out of ten times.

I wasn't a big Coples fan to be honest. I liked his size, but he really turned me off with his senior season tape. And I don't think he's all that fast. It's also a curious fit for the Jets 3-4 defense, his best fit is as a pass rusher inside on a 4 man line, like how Tuck lines up inside on 3rd down.

But as a base 3-4 DE, I think he's a little light, and he's not a dominant edge guy either.

I thought Mercilus or Branch would have been perfect for the Jets.

[SenorGato]

I wasn't a big Coples fan to be honest. I liked his size, but he really turned me off with his senior season tape. And I don't think he's all that fast. It's also a curious fit for the Jets 3-4 defense, his best fit is as a pass rusher inside on a 4 man line, like how Tuck lines up inside on 3rd down.

But as a base 3-4 DE, I think he's a little light, and he's not a dominant edge guy either.

I thought Mercilus or Branch would have been perfect for the Jets.

Few things about Coples:

- Did everything they asked him to at UNC. Sure, he admittedly gave a C effort as a senior, but I'd rather he admit it and make it known than keep it secret (therefore being a dick about it).
- The program there cleeeeeearly has some white collar problems that have nothing to do with the players, but CAN (my guess: did) have a negative impact on the individual player and his reputation.
- Played DT very well as a junior, and stood up to double teams both as a DT and as a DE. Created lots of pressure and plays anyway on teh tapes.
- You were just talking about projection...Has the body and length to play at a legit 295-300 without killing the athleticism. That's fine in a 3-4, and both Shaun Ellis and Trevor Pryce have had tons of success as 3-4 DEs who might seem light but aren't. Better length and size potential than both of them as well tbh...
- He moves very well for a guy who can play DT or DE.
- He'll see plenty of time as a DE on a 4 man line, as a DT on a 4 man line, and as a 3-4 DE.
- I don't even think his senior tape is *that* bad. The guy didn't even lose 3 sacks (picked up 10 as a DT!) despite moving positions, losing his coach, and generally playing for a program that was going crazy over the past year.
- Still was the most productive pass rusher of all these guys but Curry (who played in the MAC) in college, and can best pretty much all of them in physical tools.
- KILLED it at the Senior Bowl. Plenty of glowing reports on him, and he gave all the right people trouble that week (Glenn famously, Schwartz I'm sure).

I was stunned at how underrated he started getting to be once Mayock went on his little rant, and once Barron came off the board he was my ideal pick for the Jets. I think 15 teams f'd up. Guys like him don't get out of the top 10, let alone top 15, and he happens to go to one of the best defensive coaching staffs in the league (in a year we'll be saying the best).

I'm not even trying to be a homer about Coples but I legitimately believe all this stuff. I just don't get what's not to like once you apply the context to him as a prospect. He's really the only one of those guys with star potential, and he's with the franchise to help make it happen.

[SenorGato]

I made the Tuck comparison at one point as well (funny enough they have the same sack total in college)...Difference being he's taller, longer, healthier, a better athlete in college, and going to play for Rex Ryan.

I've always thought that if Tuck got with the right coaching staff and didn't wreck his shoulder he'd be an interesting guy to throw onto a 3-4 DL. With his physical issues not so much anymore, but the way he put on weight in the pros definitely had me thinking. He had the skills for it, he just didn't have to use his skills in that kind of D. The Jets, like most 3-4 teams, don't even two gap as much as it's commonly thought 3-4 teams 2 gap (hell, the Pats were famous for it and starting hybridizing their D almost a decade ago).

I half expect him to be this year's Aldon Smith, the rookie who will pile up sacks in a D that can afford to give him that role. Sure they'll do it from different positions, but the comparison is mostly in potential impact through a role (pass rusher) rather than position.