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bigbluedefense
05-01-2012, 04:41 PM
Yup, it's officially the dark days of the offseason. So name your top 5s of each position

QB

1. Tom Brady
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Drew Brees
4. Eli Manning
5. Ben Roethlisberger

NOTE: Peyton didn't make the top 5 bc he has to prove first he can come back from injury.

RB

1. Arian Foster
2. LeSean McCoy
3. Adrian Peterson
4. MJD
5. Matt Forte

NOTE: 2 things. One, I think AD is overrated nowadays. Why? I don't question that he's the best pure running back in the NFL, but it's a passing league now, and AD's pass protection and ability to catch out of the backfield are below average. That's why Shady and Foster are ahead of him. Two, I would have Jamaal Charles on this list but I need to see how he recovers from that ACL first.

FB

1. Vonta Leach
2. Marcel Reece
3. Ovie Mughelli
4. Jim Kleinsasser
5. Le'Ron McClain

NOTE: Kuhn is not that good.

WR

1. Calvin Johnson
2. Larry Fitzgerald
3. Andre Johnson
4. Wes Welker
5. Hakeem Nicks

NOTE: The top 3 are pretty much etched in stone. I went Welker 4 bc of productivity, and I went Nicks 5 bc out of the rest of the fringe top 5 WRs in the game right now, the rest are either too old (Steve Smith) or not complete enough (Mike Wallace) to put ahead of Nicks. Nicks is complete and has production to boot. I'm sure homerism plays a part in my decision, but I do think Nicks can put his hat in that top 5 spot. AJ Green is also too green to get it, and Moss needs to prove he's good Randy again before I give it to him.

TE

1. Rob Gronkowski
2. Jimmy Graham
3. Jason Witten
4. Vernon Davis
5. Antonio Gates

NOTE: Gates got real fat. Gonzalez is good but I don't know if he's top 5 anymore. Gresham needs more production to get on this list, ditto for Olsen and the rest of the fringe guys.

LT

1. Joe Thomas
2. Jake Long
3. Jason Peters
4. Duane Brown
5. Andrew Whithworth

NOTE: Peters tore his achilles but I put him on the list bc you can argue that he was the best LT in football last year. He was a beast. I had trouble picking the 5th guy, I went with Whithworth over Penn, Clady, Gross, Trent Williams, and Roos.

LG

1. Carl Nicks
2. Benn Grubbs
3. Mike Iupati
4. Stefen Wiesnewski
5. Evan Mathis

NOTE: I may have Wiesneski higher than most but I think he's an absolute beast.

C

1. Nick Mangold
2. Ryan Kalil
3. Chris Meyers
4. Alex Mack
5. Maurkice Pouncey

RG

1. Jahri Evans
2. Harvey Dahl
3. Marshal Yanda
4. Jake Scott
5. Brian Waters

RT

1. Eric Winston
2. Tyron Smith
3. Brian Bulaga
4. Tyson Clabo
5. Michael Oher

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
05-01-2012, 04:57 PM
QB
1 Aaron Rodgers
2 Drew Brees
3 Tom Brady
4 Eli Manning
5 Ben Roethlisberger

RB
1 Arian Foster
2 Lesean McCoy
3 MJD
4 Ray Rice
5 Matt Forte

WR
1 Calvin Johnson
2 Larry Fitzgerald
3 Victor Cruz
4 Andre Johnson
5 Wes Welker

TE
1 Rob Gronkowski
2 Jimmy Graham
3 Dallas Clark...jaykayz Vernon Davis
4 Jason Witten
5 Aaron Hernandez

Don Vito
05-01-2012, 06:52 PM
Logan Mankins would like to have a word with you

scottyboy
05-01-2012, 07:04 PM
uhm, 'scuse me but

WHERE THE **** IS RAYMELL RICE?

Mufasa
05-01-2012, 07:15 PM
QB
1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Ben Roethlisberger
5. Eli Manning

RB
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Ray Rice
3. Maurice Jones-Drew
4. LeSean McCoy
5. Arian Foster

FB
1. Jed Collins
2. Vonta Leach
3. John Kuhn
4. Marcel Reece
5. Greg Jones

WR
1. Calvin Johnson
2. Andre Johnson
3. Larry Fitzgerald
4. Greg Jennings
5. Roddy White

TE
1. Rob Gronkowski
2. Jimmy Graham
3. Jason Witten
4. Vernon Davis
5. Brandon Pettigrew

T
1. Joe Thomas
2. Jake Long
3. Duane Brown
4. Ryan Clady
5. Donald Penn

G
1. Carl Nicks
2. Jahri Evans
3. Josh Sitton
4. Marshall Yanda
5. Ben Grubbs

C
1. Nick Mangold
2. Alex Mack
3. Chris Meyers
4. Ryan Kalil
5. Eric Wood

Mr. Goosemahn
05-01-2012, 07:15 PM
You clearly have not seen the Steelers play lately, because Pouncey is unquestionably the best center in the league, and you know nothing of football, and Alex Mack is teh suckz!

/falsely-informed-homer-troll

Pouncey is good, but he's still improving. He's a sight for sore eyes for Pittsburgh fans, but because he plays with trash he looks better. He is amazing at pulling and kicking out to the second level, but he can still improve. I predicted he'd be the best center in the league by the time he was 25, so there's still three more years to go!

Really glad you put Kalil there, he is vastly underrated. The higher draft picks get all the attention, but he's quietly been not only consistent, but great in both facets of the offense. Same for Yanda.

One thing I'd have differently though is the LT rankings. I think Jason Peters is the best offensive tackle in the league, better than both Thomas and Long. I think that with the way the league is playing right now, focusing much more on the pass, a guy like Thomas has heightened value, but Peters is a baller. Just great at everything.

cmarq83
05-01-2012, 07:19 PM
Logan Mankins would like to have a word with you

After last season I wouldn't put Mankins top 5 either.

Don Vito
05-01-2012, 07:25 PM
Last year wasn't his best but he was banged up all year. Healthy Mankins is one of the best guards in the league.

fenikz
05-01-2012, 09:13 PM
Fitz with Stafford would put up 120/2000/20 not even kidding

Mufasa
05-01-2012, 09:34 PM
Fitz with Stafford would put up 120/2000/20 not even kidding

No he wouldn't.

He's a great WR and will put up great numbers with any QB. A good QB can only do so much to improve on those already great numbers. Look at Randy Moss pairing with Brady. He did set the TD record his first year, but he still fell just short of 1500 yards. His other full seasons with Brady he posted the same numbers he averaged throughout his career. Calvin Johnson just had a monster year, but he did basically the same thing in 2008, just with fewer targets; while having a combination of Dan Orlovsky, Jon Kitna, and Daunte Culpepper throwing him the ball. Hell, even look at Fitzgerald himself. He's having about the same production with garbage QBs as he did when he had Kurt Warner playing at a high level. With Stafford as his QB you could probably expect 1200-1600 yards and 12-14 TDs a year from Fitzgerald.

Johnson, Johnson, and Fitzgerald are unquestionably the three best WRs in the game. I would have them in that order, but the distance between them is minuscule.

ChiFan24
05-01-2012, 09:38 PM
Megatron >> Fitz >> Andre Johnson. Very clear separation in my mind.

Splat
05-01-2012, 09:46 PM
There are some freaking studs at the TE position in the NFL right now.

wogitalia
05-01-2012, 10:10 PM
Pretty much sums up the Vikes that we only have one guy who is even sniffing these lists and he has to come back from a ruptured ACL to even hold onto that spot.

The scary thing is I think you could stretch it to 15-20 and we still wouldn't have anyone get named... and you could argue our offense is better than our defense...

dunagan15
05-01-2012, 10:46 PM
How is Roddy not in your top 5???

vidae
05-01-2012, 11:00 PM
How is Roddy not in your top 5???

Because he's Roddy.

mightytitan9
05-01-2012, 11:09 PM
your list loses all credibility when you list wes welker as a top 5 wr and don't list michael roos in LT or David Stewart in RT

Jvig43
05-01-2012, 11:19 PM
based on the lists, it's shocking to me that tom brady isn't everyone's #1 qb. without him (say, with cassell), that's a 4-12 team. if that. instead, they ended up in the super bowl.

Eh people also try and point to us going 11-5 without him the year after we went 18-1. Obviously I have him number :P

I'll post my list up later this weekend.

The Dynasty
05-01-2012, 11:28 PM
FB

4. Jim Kleinsasser


Jim Kleinsasser Retired at the end of last year but he will be missed in Minnesota. Fan Favorite and a great blocker as a FB and TE.

BaLLiN
05-01-2012, 11:31 PM
QB
1 Aaron Rodgers
2 Drew Brees
3 Tom Brady
4 Eli Manning
5 Ben Roethlisberger

RB
1 Arian Foster
2 Lesean McCoy
3 MJD
4 Ray Rice
5 Matt Forte

WR
1 Calvin Johnson
2 Larry Fitzgerald
3 Victor Cruz
4 Andre Johnson
5 Wes Welker

TE
1 Rob Gronkowski
2 Jimmy Graham
3 Dallas Clark...jaykayz Vernon Davis
4 Jason Witten
5 Aaron Hernandez

I wouldn't put Cruz up there yet, Nicks has proven more and was more focused on by defenses. It was only late in the season Cruz was getting doubled, but he showed he could break the double. I'd say its pending.

Brodeur
05-01-2012, 11:47 PM
How is Roddy not in your top 5???

By not being that good. And I don't think Pouncey is a top five center nor do I think Wes Welker is a top 5 receiver, but the list is generally solid otherwise.

CashmoneyDrew
05-02-2012, 12:17 AM
For Jake Scott to be the 4th best RG in the NFL, there would literally have to be only 4 right guards in the NFL. He was probably the worst starter on our line last year.

Caddy
05-02-2012, 12:50 AM
There is a disturbing lack of Davin Joseph in this thread. The man is an absolute machine.

lowlife
05-02-2012, 01:09 AM
Maybe divide the WR list into two? Depending upon offenses, slot WRs are asked to do completely different things from outside players. Slot receivers are basically starters these day anywho.

Welker easily tops the slot list.

lowlife
05-02-2012, 01:15 AM
There is a disturbing lack of Davin Joseph in this thread. The man is an absolute machine.

I laughed really hard because I was convinced this was a joke

TACKLE
05-02-2012, 01:22 AM
Welker easily tops the slot list.

Over Cruz?

Caddy
05-02-2012, 01:35 AM
I laughed really hard because I was convinced this was a joke

Davin Joseph > You

scottyboy
05-02-2012, 01:37 AM
pffft, he's not even the best interior Olineman on the bucs

Caddy
05-02-2012, 01:44 AM
pffft, he's not even the best interior Olineman on the bucs

Unfortunately I think you mean Carl Nicks AND Jeremy Zuttah. :D

Sportsfan486
05-02-2012, 03:12 AM
Anyone not putting Greg Jennings in their top 5 receivers is smoking something.

He does everything at an elite level.

Caddy
05-02-2012, 03:42 AM
Anyone not putting Greg Jennings in their top 5 receivers is smoking something.

He does everything at an elite level.

After the top 3 (AJ, CJ and Fitz) I think it's a lot harder to fill out a top 5.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-02-2012, 04:59 AM
I'll give it a shot.

QB:
1. Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers
2. Tom Brady, New England Patriots
3. Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints
4. Philip Rivers, San Diego Chargers
5. Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers

I'm trying not to get too down or too high on players based on one season. Rivers is a bonafide stud with 119 TD passes, 17,597 passing yards, a 64.7% completion percentage and 8.4 YPA in the past four years. He's a stud despite last season's struggles (which IMO are VASTLY overstated). I'll need to see Stafford stay healthy and put up at least one more big year before I put him on this list. Eli needs to stop turning the ball over as much before I start putting him with the elites in the NFL (most turnovers in the NFL since he took over as the starter in NY), another year like last year would firmly entrench him amongst the top 5. Peyton needs to prove he's healthy.

RB:
To me, there is a pretty clearly defined group of elite backs: Adrian Peterson, LeSean McCoy, Arian Foster, Maurice Jones-Drew, Matt Forte, Jamaal Charles and Ray Rice. All of them are great but the new NFL isn't "three yards and a cloud of dust", its about being efficient, being explosive, being a weapon in space and in the receiving game. Being

1. LeSean McCoy, Philadelphia Eagles
2. Arian Foster, Houston Texans
3. Matt Forte, Chicago Bears
4. Maurice Jones-Drew, Jacksonville Jaguars
5. Ray Rice, Baltimore Ravens

I want to see how Adrian Peterson and Jamaal Charles come off those ACL tears before I put them over healthy stud running backs.

I think that CJ Spiller, DeMarco Murray and Trent Richardson are the three young runningbacks most likely to make the jump into this group in time. All three are explosive in both the running and passing game. But staying healthy is imperative, especially for DeMarco Murray.

WR:

1. Calvin Johnson, Detroit Lions
2. Larry Fitzgerald, Arizona Cardinals
3. Andre Johnson, Houston Texans
4. Greg Jennings, Green Bay Packers
5. Hakeem Nicks, New York Giants

I want to see Victor Cruz and Jordy Nelson continue their success before we start handing out "top 5 receiver" to those guys. AJ Green and Julio Jones will both be on this list in time. For my money the five guys I listed are the best combination of reliability, year-to-year consistency and game breaking ability in the game.

I actually struggled with this. I wanted to put Jordy Nelson and Victor Cruz up high because they were great last year but we see receivers flame out after one season all the time and they completely smashed their previous numbers.

Greg Jennings is a guy who is often the forgotten man behind the flavor of the year receivers but year after year, there is Greg Jennings producing. And Hakeem Nick's playoff performance really put him over the top for me, he's been putting up solid numbers for the past two years in New York and he just went off in the playoffs to the tune of 28 receptions, 444 yards and 4 touchdowns in four playoff games. I don't think New York wins the title without him making plays.

And if only Kenny Britt could stay healthy... He's a boss.

TE:

1. Rob Gronkowski
2. Jimmy Graham
3. Vernon Davis
4. Antonio Gates
5. Jason Witten


OT:

1. Joe Thomas
2. Duane Brown
3. Michael Roos
4. D'Brickshaw Ferguson
5. Jared Gaither

When healthy, its Jason Peters by a mile. He had people thinking he was going to be the next Philadelphia Eagle hall of famer with his play over the last 3 years. Shame he tore his achilles. He's got the feet and athleticism to shut down anyone in pass protection, he's amazing in space and he's a bull-dozer in the running game who just absolutely mauls people. No one like him. He's in Joe Thomas' class as a pass protector and he's in a class all his own as a run blocker.

OG:
1. Carl Nicks
2. Marshal Yanda
3. Jahri Evans
4. Josh Sitton
5. Brian Waters

The Evan Mathis hype is so annoying. Other Eagles fans slobber all over him and say "OMG PFF HAD HIM #1" but I know what my eyes saw. My eyes saw a smart, fundamentally sound player who functioned well as a part of a unit but he wasn't an over powering road-grader at guard. He created little movement as a run blocker and he played left guard next to Jason Peters (the easier guard spot made even easier because he was playing next to Peters). NOT top 5. Good player, not great. One year wonder too.

I want to see Logan Mankins recover from that ACL injury.

C:

1. Nick Mangold
2. Chris Meyers
3. Alex Mack
4. Eric Wood
5. Jeff Saturday

Jeff Saturday is still the man.

fenikz
05-02-2012, 05:09 AM
Anyone not putting Greg Jennings in their top 5 receivers is smoking something.

He does everything at an elite level.

I entirely agree with you every year he gets underrated by fans/media but continues to keep producing, guys excel around him because he draws most of the attention from opposing coaches

bigbluedefense
05-02-2012, 08:30 AM
Some quick hits

-Ray Rice is my 6th guy. He's basically a smaller version of Forte. Forte belongs on the list over him.

-I agree on what was said about Tom Brady. People don't realize that Pats team really didn't have that much talent. It was Brady, 2 TEs, Welker, and Wilfork. It's amazing what he did with that unit.

-Roddy White isn't on the list bc he had a down year. Ask Atlanta fans. He wasn't the same Roddy.

-Jennings wasn't on the list bc I was torn btw him and Nicks, and decided to go with Nicks bc that GB offense didn't miss a beat without Jennings. Jennings is no doubt a stud, and I'd say he's probably 5B to Nicks' 5A, but the homer in me picked Nicks bc of his production, and what he means to the offense in NY. Nicks is doubled on every play. Jennings bc of the spread they run can find himself in the slot against a LB/S zone. It's just harder to key on Jennings and take him out of the game.

-Here's the thing on Welker. I think too many ppl focus on what he isn't, instead of what he is. Yes, he's a slot WR. But a slot WR is arguably the most important WR on offense nowadays. He's the mismatch. And if he was so simple to cover, he wouldn't produce the way he does. Who else in that WR do you have to worry about? He's their only WR. Logically, you'd put your best CB on him. Yet he still produces. He's a gamer, it's time we stopped looking at him from a limitations standpoint and recognize what he is, which is a damn good WR that very few teams can stop. Not every WR has to be 6 5" and run a 4.3 to be great. Welker excels at what he does, and few if any teams can stop him from doing what he's asked to do.

-The reason why Roos and Stewart are not on the list is bc there is more competition at OT than there is at RG. They're better players, but face more competition at their respective position.

-I forgot Kleinsausser retired.

Giantsfan1080
05-02-2012, 08:41 AM
Who cares if Rice is smaller? He's more productive.

bigbluedefense
05-02-2012, 08:45 AM
Who cares if Rice is smaller? He's more productive.

How is he more productive? Forte was accountable for roughly 50% of Chicago's offense and plays behind a much worse offensive line. It's not like Forte is a scrub. He does everything Rice does, and better. I love Rice, but he doesn't do 1 thing in particular better than Forte. They're either even or Forte is better in every aspect of both of their games.

Giantsfan1080
05-02-2012, 08:58 AM
How is he more productive? Forte was accountable for roughly 50% of Chicago's offense and plays behind a much worse offensive line. It's not like Forte is a scrub. He does everything Rice does, and better. I love Rice, but he doesn't do 1 thing in particular better than Forte. They're either even or Forte is better in every aspect of both of their games.

They're very close but I'll give the edge to the guy who's led in the NFL in yards from scrimmage twice. I think Rice is a better receiver out of the backfield than Forte but whatever I guess it's splitting hairs.

Bob Sanders Dreadlock
05-02-2012, 09:00 AM
I wouldn't put Cruz up there yet, Nicks has proven more and was more focused on by defenses. It was only late in the season Cruz was getting doubled, but he showed he could break the double. I'd say its pending.

Cruz still put up 1500 yards this year. Insane for a guy who had 17 yards in the first 2 games.

bigbluedefense
05-02-2012, 09:02 AM
They're very close but I'll give the edge to the guy who's led in the NFL in yards from scrimmage twice. I think Rice is a better receiver out of the backfield than Forte but whatever I guess it's splitting hairs.

It is splitting hairs. It really is that close, that's why I went with Forte being bigger as the tie breaker. I had to break the tie somehow.

Honestly, it's another 5A and 5B scenario.

killxswitch
05-02-2012, 09:03 AM
5. Jeff Saturday

Jeff Saturday is still the man.

Did you actually watch any Colts games since 2008? Mentally he is at the top still but physically he hasn't been good for several years.

Giantsfan1080
05-02-2012, 09:04 AM
It is splitting hairs. It really is that close, that's why I went with Forte being bigger as the tie breaker. I had to break the tie somehow.

Honestly, it's another 5A and 5B scenario.

The tiebreaker is easy! You went to Rutgers.

bigbluedefense
05-02-2012, 09:04 AM
Cruz still put up 1500 yards this year. Insane for a guy who had 17 yards in the first 2 games.

Cruz has to do it again though. 1 year doesn't make you a great player. He has potential, but it's too early to be a top 5 guy.

bigbluedefense
05-02-2012, 09:13 AM
The tiebreaker is easy! You went to Rutgers.

Yeah. I'm gonna be honest. My dumbass just forgot about Rice and now I'm trying to justify it.

whatadai
05-02-2012, 10:23 AM
Did you actually watch any Colts games since 2008? Mentally he is at the top still but physically he hasn't been good for several years.

He's still good. Just not top 5 good.

whatadai
05-02-2012, 10:24 AM
Yeah. I'm gonna be honest. My dumbass just forgot about Rice and now I'm trying to justify it.

:jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop:

mightytitan9
05-02-2012, 11:29 AM
-The reason why Roos and Stewart are not on the list is bc there is more competition at OT than there is at RG. They're better players, but face more competition at their respective position.

.

Stewart is hands down the best RT in football. To not have him listed in the top 5 is a horrendous job.

You can argue anyone over Roos, personally from watching him I would take him over any LT in the NFL. But either way you look at it, he's still top 5

Iamcanadian
05-02-2012, 12:24 PM
For the most part, I really like your rankings, however I do have a few problems with some OL selections. Nicks and Grubbs went into FA at a pretty young age so their teams didn't think all that well about them.
OC is another position where I think you could be off a bit. I'd rate Mack and Pouncey a bit higher.

Winston changed teams in FA and Tyrone Smith is moving to LT so I just don't think RT is a solid list. LT list looks pretty solid to me.
I completely agree with your QB rankings and think you are right on about Adrian Peterson. WR and TE look solid but don't ask me to rank FB's. That's a tough chore.

mightytitan9
05-02-2012, 12:33 PM
I don't understand the fascination on Eric Winston, he's an average RT in this league. How many teams would cut "the best RT in football" because he was making 4m a year? Exactly. How come he only had limited interest in FA?

He was a good RT in a true zone blocking scheme, he'll be average for the chiefs

HeavyLeggedWaistBender
05-02-2012, 12:44 PM
^Love it when people say "this" league. As if they're in it in any form themselves. :P

Anywhozers, I haven't seen Brandon Marshall on any ones list. Wussupwitdat?

scottyboy
05-02-2012, 12:46 PM
^Love it when people say "this" league. As if they're in it in any form themselves. :P

Anywhozers, I haven't seen Brandon Marshall on any ones list. Wussupwitdat?

because he's not a top 5 WR...?

hell, he might not be top 10 really.

HeavyLeggedWaistBender
05-02-2012, 12:51 PM
Well then where is Alshon Jeffery??

killxswitch
05-02-2012, 12:54 PM
Well then where is Alshon Jeffery??

My guess would be Golden Corral.

scottyboy
05-02-2012, 12:54 PM
My guess would be Golden Corral.

really? because I was gonna say fat camp

HeavyLeggedWaistBender
05-02-2012, 12:56 PM
PFT called, it wants it snarky comment back!

scottyboy
05-02-2012, 12:56 PM
PFT called, it wants it snarky comment back!

fine, he's still stuck at the line of scrimmage because he couldn't get separation. better?

killxswitch
05-02-2012, 12:57 PM
I have to admit I think I saw the Golden Corral comment at PFT first. I should've said KFC. But then again that would make me racist.

HeavyLeggedWaistBender
05-02-2012, 01:03 PM
fine, he's still stuck at the line of scrimmage because he couldn't get separation. better?

Ehhh it's relevant, yes, but cliche at this point. There was someone else on the Bears board that tried to be clever and say he couldn't separate from a glue trap, a hilarious fail of a metaphor. So I took it further while staying in the same vein: he can't separate from a dead horse.

You can use that one.

vidae
05-02-2012, 01:09 PM
Why isn't <my favorite player> from <my favorite team> on this list? Ridiculous!

Iamcanadian
05-02-2012, 01:15 PM
^Love it when people say "this" league. As if they're in it in any form themselves. :P

Anywhozers, I haven't seen Brandon Marshall on any ones list. Wussupwitdat?

WR is a very tough list to make and Marshall is like Terrell Owens, terrifically talented but do you want him in your dressing room???

ChiFan24
05-02-2012, 01:15 PM
QB
1. Tom Brady
2. Aaron Rodgers - I want to put him #1, but I need more of a track record
3. Drew Brees
4. Ben Roethlisberger
5. Eli Manning - Rounds out the elite tear. Rivers falls to #6 and no longer elite in my book

RB
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Arian Foster
3. Ray Rice
4. Maurice Jones Drew
5. LeSean McCoy

WR
1. Calvin Johnson
2. Larry Fitzgerald
3. Andre Johnson
4. Hakeem Nicks
5. Roddy White

**** it, receivers are so awesome these days, I'm doing 5 more

6. Victor Cruz
7. Mike Wallace
8. Brandon Marshall
9. Greg Jennings
10. Wes Welker

TE
1. Rob Gronkowski
2. Jimmy Graham
3. Vernon Davis
4. Jason Witten
5. Antonio Gates

LT
1. Joe Thomas
2. Jake Long
3. Ryan Clady - Trusting my eyes. He's elite.
4. Jason Peters
5. Duane Brown - Wanted to go Jordan Gross.

LG
1. Carl Nicks
2. Ben Grubbs
3. Logan Mankins - Not letting one season change anything
4. Andy Levitre
5. Mike Iupati - Not buying Evan Mathis just yet. I'll go with the guy that doesn't have a history of sucking.

C
1. Nick Mangold
2. Alex Mack
3. Jeff Saturday
4. Chris Myers
5. Maurkice Pouncey - Underrated because he was overrated. Also would rank Eric Wood over Kalil.

RG
1. Jahri Evans
2. Marshall Yanda
3. Josh Sitton
4. Harvey Dahl
5. Chris Snee

RT
1. David Stewart -Considering Tyron Smith a LT
2. Tyson Clabo
3. Michael Oher
4. Sebastian Vollmer
5. Andre Smith - I don't see much difference in quality between him, healthy Otah, Bulaga, Winston, few other guys

ChiFan24
05-02-2012, 01:18 PM
WR is a very tough list to make and Marshall is like Terrell Owens, terrifically talented but do you want him in your dressing room???

You're the worst.

killxswitch
05-02-2012, 01:19 PM
You're the worst.

Dressing rooms are for thespians.

vidae
05-02-2012, 01:20 PM
ChiFan, no Eric Winston love at RT?!

(yes, I know the irony of doing exactly what I just made fun of, so sue me!)

mightytitan9
05-02-2012, 01:24 PM
ChiFan, this is by far the best list I have seen posted yet. Personally, I feel Michael Roos is at least a top 3 LT anyway I see it, but I respect your opinion and the rest of your list is pretty dead on.

I will say I think CJ2k will once again be on people list after this year, but I understand why people do not have him on their list at this point in time

Splat
05-02-2012, 01:29 PM
I don't understand the fascination on Eric Winston, he's an average RT in this league. How many teams would cut "the best RT in football" because he was making 4m a year? Exactly. How come he only had limited interest in FA?

He had 3 visits set up with in 24 hours of being cut, and ended up having like 5 teams show interest.

ChiFan24
05-02-2012, 01:32 PM
ChiFan, this is by far the best list I have seen posted yet. Personally, I feel Michael Roos is at least a top 3 LT anyway I see it, but I respect your opinion and the rest of your list is pretty dead on.

I will say I think CJ2k will once again be on people list after this year, but I understand why people do not have him on their list at this point in time

Gracias.....actually forgot about Roos. Hard to decide between him, Gross and Brown though. CJ2K is fighting Forte for the #6 RB spot right now and obviously could be #1 or 2 by season's end.

Notredameleo
05-02-2012, 01:39 PM
I dont understand the Roethlisberger love personally...To me, Cutler, Stafford, and Rivers aer better.

ChiFan24
05-02-2012, 01:54 PM
I dont understand the Roethlisberger love personally...To me, Cutler, Stafford, and Rivers aer better.

I love me some Cutty, but I have no idea how you can prefer him to Roethlisberger. I think Ben's the better QB, and he has the rings to back it up.

tjsunstein
05-02-2012, 03:39 PM
ChiFan needs more track record for Rodgers to be #1, but puts Cruz over Jennings.

bigbluedefense
05-02-2012, 03:51 PM
Ok, so let me ask you something.

If the Titans do indeed have the best RT in football, along with a top 3 LT in football along with one of the best Guards in football, then why the hell did they struggle so much as a unit last year?

All I heard and seen was how the unit struggled so much this year, the run blocking wasn't near what it used to be, the pass protection was decent but not unbelievable, yet you want 3 of your OLmen to be in the top 5?

How does that make any sense?

Rosebud
05-02-2012, 03:55 PM
C
Kalil
Mangold
Mack
Pouncey
Wood
Top 3 are all at right about the same level

OG
Evans
Nicks
Mankins
Grubbs
Yanda/Levitre
Again there's seperation between the top 3 and the other exceptional players at guard

OT
Peters
Thomas
Whitworth
Long
Roos
Clady
Brown
Gross

Tackles pretty tough, a healthy and focused Peters is number one over Joe Thomas for me, but after that I wouldn't argue with any of those guys

irishbucsfan
05-02-2012, 04:03 PM
Whoever said there are some utter freaks at TE right now was totally right.

Splat
05-02-2012, 04:07 PM
Why isn't <my favorite player> from <my favorite team> on this list? Ridiculous!

I all ready have my Tamba Hali rant typed out for when the D list starts and he doesn't get the love he deserves.

Complex
05-02-2012, 04:13 PM
Ok, so let me ask you something.

If the Titans do indeed have the best RT in football, along with a top 3 LT in football along with one of the best Guards in football, then why the hell did they struggle so much as a unit last year?



Who said we had the best guard or guards besides you?

TACKLE
05-02-2012, 04:18 PM
It is splitting hairs. It really is that close, that's why I went with Forte being bigger as the tie breaker. I had to break the tie somehow.

Honestly, it's another 5A and 5B scenario.

Raymell. (10 char)

bearsfan_51
05-02-2012, 04:52 PM
Quarterback
1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Eli Manning
5. Philip Rivers (I know Big Ben has won rings, but he has a better team)

Runningback
1. Chris Johnson
2. Ray Rice
3. Adrian Peterson
4. Maurice Jones-Drew
5. Arian Foster (weird that other people have Forte)

Receiver
1. Calvin Johnson
2. Larry Fitzgerald
3. Andre Johnson
4. Brandon Marshall
5. Roddy White

There's a lot of depth past the top #3 so you could make arguments for Welker, Jennings, Bowe, Nicks, Stevie Johnson, and Cruz (and maybe more)

bearsfan_51
05-02-2012, 04:59 PM
Whatevs. I'll still put my money on him. Maybe he'll just quit once he got the money, but my guess is that he simply was out of shape and subsequently got damaged.

What I don't get is the Lesean McCoy love. I could see him over Foster, as they are both a product of their offensive schemes, but I've never seen McCoy take over a game by himself and think "wow, that's an elite runningback".

ChiFan24
05-02-2012, 05:16 PM
ChiFan needs more track record for Rodgers to be #1, but puts Cruz over Jennings.

Yeah, because QB's and WR's are the same thing. You got me!

mightytitan9
05-02-2012, 05:19 PM
He had 3 visits set up with in 24 hours of being cut, and ended up having like 5 teams show interest.

please, he stalled in KC as long as possible to get more teams interested. Rams were, but thats still not much for the "best RT in football"

mightytitan9
05-02-2012, 05:26 PM
Ok, so let me ask you something.

If the Titans do indeed have the best RT in football, along with a top 3 LT in football along with one of the best Guards in football, then why the hell did they struggle so much as a unit last year?

All I heard and seen was how the unit struggled so much this year, the run blocking wasn't near what it used to be, the pass protection was decent but not unbelievable, yet you want 3 of your OLmen to be in the top 5?

How does that make any sense?

You have, nor ever will hear a Titans fan claim Jake Scott is one of the top 15 guards in football, let alone one of the best. Our guards and center sucked last season, and our FB failed us dramatically as well.

The Titans gave up the 2nd least amount of QB sacks, and 2nd least amount of QB hits. Ever since Roos and Stewart took over starting, we have consistently been one of the lowest in sacks allowed.

So, to call our Pass protection "decent" shows how little you know. Watch some damn football

mightytitan9
05-02-2012, 05:29 PM
give that other titans fan time. once people accept that you have the best tackles in nfl history, he'll move on to the interior o-line.

We have the best tandem on the NFL, there is no comparison. David Stewart is the best RT in the NFL and Michael Roos is one of the best LTs in the game.

Sorry you don't watch enough football and only go by the guys you hear on tv.

This thread should be renamed most popular, because clearly it's a popularity contest

prock
05-02-2012, 05:40 PM
This list is fact. If you disagree you are an ignorant, blinded homer.




QB
1. Christian Ponder
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Tom Brady
4. Drew Brees
5. Eli Manning

RB
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Arian Foster
3. Lesean McCoy
4. Ray Rice
5. MJD

WR
1. Percy Harvin
2. Calvin Johnson
3. Larry Fitzgerald
4. Andre Johnson
5. Roddy White

TE
1. Kyle Rudolph
2. Rob Gronkowski
3. Jimmy Graham
4. Jason Witten
5. Vernon Davis

OT
1. Matt Kalil
2. Joe Thomas
3. Jason Peters
4. Jake Long
5. Ryan Clady

OG
1. Charlie Johnson
2. Ben Grubbs
3-the rest. Don't Care

C
1. Joe Sullivan
2. Ryan Kalil
3. Alex Mack
4. Nick Mangold
5. Pouncey, the one with the dumb name I can't spell

Splat
05-02-2012, 05:46 PM
please, he stalled in KC as long as possible to get more teams interested. Rams were, but thats still not much for the "best RT in football"

Stalled in KC? He had all ready talked with Miami and had visits set up with STL and B-More had he got out of KC.

I'm not saying he is the best RT in football, but to act like no one wanted the guy is ridiculous.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-02-2012, 05:56 PM
What I don't get is the Lesean McCoy love. I could see him over Foster, as they are both a product of their offensive schemes, but I've never seen McCoy take over a game by himself and think "wow, that's an elite runningback".

LOL, wut? 3296 yards from scrimmage and 29 touchdowns the past two years. And you've never seen him take over a game? 2010 against the Lions and Dallas or 2011 against the Rams, Redskins, Cowboys and Jets? And he's the best 4th quarter running back in the NFL, he's averaged 5.8 yards per carry in the fourth quarter over the past two years. The Redskins, Cowboys, Cowboys and Jets games are all examples of games where the Eagles just fed McCoy the ball late and he took over the game.

And have you ever watched LeSean McCoy, ever? You've never seen him do anything that makes you think "Wow, thats an elite back"? That's just absurd. Who is more elusive? Who is more explosive? Who is a more effective short yard back? No one is more elusive. He led the NFL in runs of more than ten yards. Got first downs on 14 out of 19 runs on third down and less than three yards, 7th highest conversion rate in the NFL. Most first down carries in the NFL. Scored touchdowns on 9 out of 13 runs inside the 3, 2nd highest conversion rate in the NFL. With McCoy getting a vast majority of the snaps the Eagles had the second highest amount of second level yards in the NFL.

If you haven't seen what makes LeSean McCoy an elite back, you haven't been watching.

bearsfan_51
05-02-2012, 06:00 PM
We have the best tandem on the NFL, there is no comparison. David Stewart is the best RT in the NFL and Michael Roos is one of the best LTs in the game.

Sorry you don't watch enough football and only go by the guys you hear on tv.

This thread should be renamed most popular, because clearly it's a popularity contest
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3tBnNByoeyE/TJ5s5DWHgJI/AAAAAAAAADU/i-V1LFv3UmM/s1600/oldlady.jpg

"And another thing...what's with all of the boys dressing like the girls and the girls dressing like the boys? In my day...."

bearsfan_51
05-02-2012, 06:01 PM
LOL, wut? 3296 yards from scrimmage and 29 touchdowns the past two years. And you've never seen him take over a game? 2010 against the Lions and Dallas or 2011 against the Rams, Redskins, Cowboys and Jets? And he's the best 4th quarter running back in the NFL, he's averaged 5.8 yards per carry in the fourth quarter over the past two years. The Redskins, Cowboys, Cowboys and Jets games are all examples of games where the Eagles just fed McCoy the ball late and he took over the game.

And have you ever watched LeSean McCoy, ever? You've never seen him do anything that makes you think "Wow, thats an elite back"? That's just absurd. Who is more elusive? Who is more explosive? Who is a more effective short yard back? No one is more elusive. He led the NFL in runs of more than ten yards. Got first downs on 14 out of 19 runs on third down and less than three yards, 7th highest conversion rate in the NFL. Most first down carries in the NFL. Scored touchdowns on 9 out of 13 runs inside the 3, 2nd highest conversion rate in the NFL. With McCoy getting a vast majority of the snaps the Eagles had the second highest amount of second level yards in the NFL.

If you haven't seen what makes LeSean McCoy an elite back, you haven't been watching.
Meh...he has nice stats, but I just don't view him as particularly dominant or even special. Chris Johnson is more elusive and explosive. So is Jamaal Charles.

He's aided tremendously by the offense that he's in and the quarterback he plays with. I think he's a system player. Whenever I watch the Eagles play, I always see huge holes for McCoy because teams as so focused on getting burnt by Vick and Jackson/Maclin that they play so far back. That NEVER happens for Matt Forte. A top 10 runningback for certain. Maybe a top 5, but I don't think it's airtight.

soybean
05-02-2012, 06:32 PM
AJ Green will be on that list in due time.

mightytitan9
05-02-2012, 06:32 PM
Stalled in KC? He had all ready talked with Miami and had visits set up with STL and B-More had he got out of KC.

I'm not saying he is the best RT in football, but to act like no one wanted the guy is ridiculous.

I didn't say nobody wanted him, I said if he was truly the best RT in football, don't you think more teams would have expressed interest in him?

ChiFan24
05-02-2012, 06:32 PM
This list is fact. If you disagree you are an ignorant, blinded homer.




QB
1. Christian Ponder
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Tom Brady
4. Drew Brees
5. Eli Manning

RB
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Arian Foster
3. Lesean McCoy
4. Ray Rice
5. MJD

WR
1. Percy Harvin
2. Calvin Johnson
3. Larry Fitzgerald
4. Andre Johnson
5. Roddy White

TE
1. Kyle Rudolph
2. Rob Gronkowski
3. Jimmy Graham
4. Jason Witten
5. Vernon Davis

OT
1. Matt Kalil
2. Joe Thomas
3. Jason Peters
4. Jake Long
5. Ryan Clady

OG
1. Charlie Johnson
2. Ben Grubbs
3-the rest. Don't Care

C
1. Joe Sullivan
2. Ryan Kalil
3. Alex Mack
4. Nick Mangold
5. Pouncey, the one with the dumb name I can't spell

Idk about Peterson at #1......

mightytitan9
05-02-2012, 06:33 PM
Meh...he has nice stats, but I just don't view him as particularly dominant or even special. Chris Johnson is more elusive and explosive. So is Jamaal Charles.


Ah, Jamaal Charles. The forgotten RB in the NFL...

I'm hoping a full and healthy return, i really enjoy watching him

Bixby (Thumper)
05-02-2012, 06:37 PM
Meh...he has nice stats, but I just don't view him as particularly dominant or even special. Chris Johnson is more elusive and explosive. So is Jamaal Charles.

If we're talking about old CJ2k then sure, Chris Johnson is more explosive. But CJ2k is now CJ 4 yards a carry. And even CJ2k wasn't as elusive as LeSean is, CJ2k is explosive straight line but he's not as explosive as LeSean McCoy is laterally. I'd say the same thing about Jamaal Charles, more explosive in a straight line but he doesn't have springs for ACLs the way LeSean does.

prock
05-02-2012, 07:00 PM
Idk about Peterson at #1......

Not sure if you got it.

Brown Leader
05-02-2012, 07:05 PM
Here we go...


QB

1. Tom Brady
2. Drew Brees
3. Aaron Rodgers
4. Eli Manning
5. Ben Roethlisberger

RB

1. Arian Foster
2. LeShon McCoy
3. Darren McFadden
4. Matt Forte
5. Fred Jackson

*AP and Charles are injury scratches. MJD is a workhorse but it's beginning to take it's toll. Rice is probably #6.

WR

1. Calvin Johnson
2. Andre Johnson
3. Larry Fitzgerald
4. Dwayne Bowe
5. A.J. Green

*Nicks, Cruz, Welker, Jennings all have the benefit of an all pro tossing them the ball. Bowe has become an all pro with Cassell & co. throwing to him. Same line of thinking goes into Green at 5. But Cruz would be #6.

TE

1. Vernon Davis
2. Rob Gronkowski
3. Jimmy Graham
4. Fred Davis
5. Aaron Hernandez

*Again Brady makes Gronk and Hernandez. Brees makes Graham. Alex Smith?...yeah. And Fred Davis was the Skins passing offense last year.

OT

1. Joe Thomas
2. Tyron Smith
3. Jason Peters
4. Duane Brown
5. Jared Veldheer

OG

1. Carl Nicks
2. Jahri Evans
3. Ben Grubbs
4. Josh Sitton
5. Logan Mankins

OC

1. Mike Pouncey
2. Nick Mangold
3. Ryan Kalil
4. Maurkice Pouncey
5. Steve Wisniewski

mightytitan9
05-02-2012, 07:23 PM
5. Steve Wisniewski

Stefen, Steve is his uncle

vidae
05-02-2012, 07:28 PM
This list is fact. If you disagree you are an ignorant, blinded homer.

QB
1. Christian Ponder
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Tom Brady
4. Drew Brees
5. Eli Manning

RB
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Arian Foster
3. Lesean McCoy
4. Ray Rice
5. MJD

WR
1. Percy Harvin
2. Calvin Johnson
3. Larry Fitzgerald
4. Andre Johnson
5. Roddy White

TE
1. Kyle Rudolph
2. Rob Gronkowski
3. Jimmy Graham
4. Jason Witten
5. Vernon Davis

OT
1. Matt Kalil
2. Joe Thomas
3. Jason Peters
4. Jake Long
5. Ryan Clady

OG
1. Charlie Johnson
2. Ben Grubbs
3-the rest. Don't Care

C
1. Joe Sullivan
2. Ryan Kalil
3. Alex Mack
4. Nick Mangold
5. Pouncey, the one with the dumb name I can't spell

This is the best one I've seen so far. Especially the Joe Sullivan pick. Way underrated. But you can't forget Charlie Johnson either. Christian Ponder is clearly #1 in my eyes.

Iamcanadian
05-02-2012, 07:36 PM
Here we go...


QB

1. Tom Brady
2. Drew Brees
3. Aaron Rodgers
4. Eli Manning
5. Ben Roethlisberger

I like all 5 but Brees above Rodgers seems strange to me.

RB

1. Arian Foster
2. LeShon McCoy
3. Darren McFadden
4. Matt Forte
5. Fred Jackson

*AP and Charles are injury scratches. MJD is a workhorse but it's beginning to take it's toll. Rice is probably #6.

If APO and Charles are injury scratches, why are McFadden, Forte and Jackson on the list. Not that I'm saying they aren't all talented. I actually like your list more but I'd put McFadden at #1 if he could stay healthy. Kubiak has probably never had a RB who didn't gain a 1000 yards, he is some sort of genius at having a running attack so Foster might not do as well with any other team. Oh yeah, where is the toll showing on MJD again???

WR

1. Calvin Johnson
2. Andre Johnson
3. Larry Fitzgerald
4. Dwayne Bowe
5. A.J. Green

*Nicks, Cruz, Welker, Jennings all have the benefit of an all pro tossing them the ball. Bowe has become an all pro with Cassell & co. throwing to him. Same line of thinking goes into Green at 5. But Cruz would be #6.

Solid reasoning but punishing top WR's because they happen to have a great QB just isn't right.

TE

1. Vernon Davis
2. Rob Gronkowski
3. Jimmy Graham
4. Fred Davis
5. Aaron Hernandez

*Again Brady makes Gronk and Hernandez. Brees makes Graham. Alex Smith?...yeah. And Fred Davis was the Skins passing offense last year.

OT

1. Joe Thomas
2. Tyron Smith
3. Jason Peters
4. Duane Brown
5. Jared Veldheer

Tyrone Smith at #2 is a bit high at this point in his career, don't you think. He hasn't even played LT yet.

OG

1. Carl Nicks
2. Jahri Evans
3. Ben Grubbs
4. Josh Sitton
5. Logan Mankins

If Nicks is so good why didn't NO make more of an effort to retain him in his youth. Ditto for Grubbs.

OC

1. Mike Pouncey
2. Nick Mangold
3. Ryan Kalil
4. Maurkice Pouncey
5. Steve Wisniewski

Mike Pouncey #1, I don't think so. You'd have to explain that one to me.

Interesting selections for some positions.

SuperMcGee
05-02-2012, 07:45 PM
RB

1. Arian Foster
2. LeShon McCoy
3. Darren McFadden
4. Matt Forte
5. Fred Jackson


<333

I don't know what more you could want out of a back than what Jackson gives you. I guess I understand if people don't want to rate him too highly if you think his role will be diminished moving forward, but he's such a fantastic back in every aspect.

bearsfan_51
05-02-2012, 07:49 PM
Darren McFadden is not the 3rd best runningback. He's become so overrated after like 1 1/2 good seasons. It should say something that the Raiders don't miss a beat when Michael Bush was in.

mightytitan9
05-02-2012, 10:23 PM
Fred Jacksons probably the most underrated back in the NFL, but at 31 you've got to wonder how much he has left in the tank

mightytitan9
05-02-2012, 10:24 PM
I think this list can greatly differ because some people are thinking if they're building a team, others are basing it on production, others on a combination of many things.

Vox Populi
05-02-2012, 11:35 PM
Andy Levitre needs more love at OG but I forgive all of you since hes on the Bills and no one cares.

SuperMcGee
05-02-2012, 11:52 PM
Andy Levitre needs more love at OG but I forgive all of you since hes on the Bills and no one cares.

He has the ultimate praise - only player in the NFL with a Lake Effect Ice Cream flavor in his honor.

He's probably my favorite player in the league, right now. Hopefully gets a decent contract this year.

ChiFan24
05-03-2012, 12:12 AM
Not sure if you got it.
I did. I'm okay with all of your other rankings. The Peterson one is iffy.

bigbluedefense
05-03-2012, 06:54 AM
Damn I'm getting killed for my list. Even neg repped. It's not easy making a top 5 of every position, I miss some here and there, sue me.

I forgot about Levitre, he's definitely top 5. And I guess my RT list is controversial.

As for Shady, he's a beast. I used to think the same thing BF51 thought, that he just took advantage of 6 man fronts bc of the offense he's in, but after watching him this year, I realized he's legit. The guy sees plenty of 8 man fronts, and even in games where VY was in, he still had great numbers.

He's basically Brian Westbrook reincarnated.

scottyboy
05-03-2012, 08:26 AM
people still neg rep? pffft

xooberon
05-03-2012, 09:33 AM
QB

1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Drew Brees
3. Tom Brady
4. Eli Manning
5. Philip Rivers

RB

1. MJD
2. Arian Foster
3. Adrian Peterson
4. LeSean McCoy
5. Fred Jackson

FB

1. Vonta Leach
2. Greg Jones
3. Jim Kleinsasser

WR

1. Larry Fitzgerald
2. Calvin Johnson
3. Andre Johnson
4. Wes Welker
5. Hakeem Nicks

TE

1. Rob Gronkowski
2. Jimmy Graham
3. Tony Gonzalez
4. Aaron Hernandez
5. Jason Witten

LT

1. Joe Thomas
2. Jason Peters
3. Duane Brown
4. Jake Long
5. Andrew Whitworth

LG

1. Carl Nicks
2. Evan Mathis
3. Andy Levitre
4. Mike Iupati
5. Logan Mankins

C

1. Nick Mangold
2. Chris Myers
3. Jeff Saturday
4. Ryan Kalil
5. Scott Wells

RG

1. Marshall Yanda
2. Josh Sitton
3. Jahri Evans
4. Jake Scott
5. Brian Waters

RT

1. David Stewart
2. Tyson Clabo
3. Eric Winston
4. Bryan Bulaga
5. Tyron Smith

Don't get the Pouncey love at all.

cmarq83
05-03-2012, 09:38 AM
TE

1. Vernon Davis
2. Rob Gronkowski
3. Jimmy Graham
4. Fred Davis
5. Aaron Hernandez

*Again Brady makes Gronk and Hernandez. Brees makes Graham. Alex Smith?...yeah. And Fred Davis was the Skins passing offense last year.

That's a funny joke :njx:

Splat
05-03-2012, 09:47 AM
Darren McFadden is not the 3rd best runningback. He's become so overrated after like 1 1/2 good seasons.

He isn't even the best RB in his Div, that would be Jamaal.

K Train
05-03-2012, 10:45 AM
QB

Aaron Rodgers
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Ben Roethlisberger
Eli Manning

RB

Adrian Peterson is still the best
Arian Foster
MJD
Ray Rice
Leseasn Mccoy

WR

Calvin Johnson
Larry Fitz
Andre Johnson
Sharod White
Colston? Seriously like a 5 way tie for #5

TE

Rob Gronk
Jimmy Graham
Vernon Davis
Jason Witten
Jermichael Finley

LT

Joe Thomas
Jake Long
Tyron Smith....this is going to be real life
Michael Roos
Duane Brown

LG

Carl Nicks
Mike Iupati
Andy Levitre
Ben Grubbs
Evan Mathis

C

Nick Mangold
Alex Mack
Maurkice Pouncey
Scott Wells
Ryan Kalil

RG

Marshall Yanda
Jhari Evans
David Decastro <3333333 (homer projection, not outlandish though lol)
Josh Sitton
Chad Rinehart maybe?

RT

David Stewart
Tyson Clabo
Bryan Bulaga
Doug Free will be much better on the right again
GABE CARIMI (this was a tough list, i just wanted to cap it at white guys...sorry)





i started making a defense one and saw it was only offense...this was harder than i thought

Saints-Tigers
05-03-2012, 10:58 AM
Nicks isn't good because the Saints thought it better to pay less money for Grubbs, who also isn't good because his team let him go so they can sign people like Ngata down the line.

Carl Nicks is the best guard in the league, don't overthink it.

scottyboy
05-03-2012, 12:16 PM
even though he had an off year, I feel Chris Snee is still better than some of the farts you guys are putting at 4 and 5 of your right guards

gsorace
05-03-2012, 12:21 PM
i always find these threads hilarious. some folks will go to the end of the earth to defend any and every player from their own team.

You're exaggerating. Also anyone who doesn't have Nick Mangold as their #1 center deserves to be castrated.

prock
05-03-2012, 02:46 PM
I did. I'm okay with all of your other rankings. The Peterson one is iffy.

Fair enough, sir.

killxswitch
05-03-2012, 03:26 PM
i'm entertained by the idea that a 3 year old is somehow posting on these boards and knows how to work for the rep system.

either way, i always find these threads hilarious. some folks will go to the end of the earth to defend any and every player from their own team. well, except that one that they don't like, because they think it makes them more 'objective' or something.

njx is aloof and superior to all, at all times, in all things.

_YL_
05-03-2012, 04:52 PM
I would have put Veldheer some where in there at least over the consideration of D.Penn he gave up like 9 sacks last year.

mightytitan9
05-03-2012, 04:57 PM
somebody gonna make a defensive one? Don't worry, I won't argue any Titans Defenders are top 5 at their position lol

bigbluedefense
05-03-2012, 05:00 PM
I'm working on it. I'm debating though how I'm going to make it. Do I do a separate one for the 4-3 and 3-4? Do I somehow mix and match?

It's a little trickier with defense.

_YL_
05-03-2012, 05:04 PM
Darren McFadden is not the 3rd best runningback. He's become so overrated after like 1 1/2 good seasons. It should say something that the Raiders don't miss a beat when Michael Bush was in.

Yeah they didn't miss a beat until week 12 when Bush highest rushing yards in a game were 78 yards. McFadden when healthy I would consider in the top 5 but hasn't show the ability to stay healthy and that's the problem staying healthy He was leading the league in rushing before getting hurt.

mightytitan9
05-03-2012, 06:09 PM
I'm working on it. I'm debating though how I'm going to make it. Do I do a separate one for the 4-3 and 3-4? Do I somehow mix and match?

It's a little trickier with defense.

I think you've got to do like: best 3-4 DE's, best 4-3 DE's, best 3-4 ILB, best 4-3 MLB etc.

Obviously DB's can be just one list.

I say this because 3-4 OLB's often would be listed because they produce more, even though they're more like 4-3 DE's than OLB.

Reminds me of the pro bowl when Keith Bulluck would get passed over so often for the 3-4 OLB's

Bixby (Thumper)
05-03-2012, 06:26 PM
I'm working on it. I'm debating though how I'm going to make it. Do I do a separate one for the 4-3 and 3-4? Do I somehow mix and match?

It's a little trickier with defense.

I'd just go "Pass Rushers" (43 DE, 34 OLB), "Interior Linemen" (34 DE, NT, DT) and "Linebacker" (34 ILB, 43 OLB, 43 MLB). Maybe expand it to ten on those since you've clumped a bunch of positions together.

BigBanger
05-03-2012, 06:30 PM
QB

1. Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay Packers
2. Peyton Manning, Denver Broncos
3. Tom Brady, New England Patriots
4. Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers
5. Drew Brees, New Orleans Saints

I think Peyton Manning's value only improved in my eyes last year. Everyone saw how depleted on talent they were without him. He is literally the only reason why they won 12 to 14 games on a yearly basis. I think Manning, Brady and Rodgers are the top 3 QBs. You can arrange them any way you want based on preference. Rodgers is simply the best QB I've ever seen, and he's been the best player in the NFL since his Super Bowl run. Roethlisberger won a Super Bowl behind an offensive line that simply boggles my mind. He made it to the Super Bowl with the two worst offensive lines that ever made it to a Super Bowl (against Arizona and Green Bay). His style is atypical, but it's effectiveness has two rings to show for it. And that defense seems to play below expectations come playoff time, especially as of late. I'm not a huge fan of Brees and think he's a little bit more "video game numbers" than meaningful wins. I've always been down on Brees a little more than most, and higher on Roethlisberger than most. Still an elite QB, which should go without saying. The next 5 QBs are also pretty impressive (Eli, Stafford, Rivers and easily Newton, if I'm projecting ahead, round out the next bunch).


RB

1. Adrian Peterson, Minnesota Vikings
2. Arian Foster, Houton Texans
3. LeSean McCoy, Philadelphia Eagles
4. Matt Forte, Chicago Bears
5. Marshawn Lynch, Seattle Seahawks

Adrian Peterson has been the best pure RB talent in the NFL since his rookie season. He's a scoring machine on an absolutely terrible team. He is the entire offense and the only thing defenses have to worry about. His offensive line has also sucked for years, but his production has always been there. Head and shoulders the best RB in the NFL. Foster is a perfect fit behind that offensive line / scheme. He's a dual threat and a contender every year now for most yards from scrimmage. Forte is one of my favorite runners in the game. He is the Bears offense and has been behind a terrible line for years. Better TD numbers would rank him higher, maybe even #2 behind Peterson. Lynch is the wildcard for me. I was higher on him than most when he entered the draft so I may be biased. I think he may have found a home in Seattle. He's never been behind a good offensive line in his career, but he is a beast (even though I can't stand to hear him talk about beast mode, or simply talk in general). If Jammal Charles was healthy, he'd make this list. Not big on Ray Rice or MJD. Never really have been either. Don't really have a good reason for leaving them off. Just like those five RBs listed the most.


FB

I don't care.


WR

1. Calvin Johnson, Detroit Lions
2. Larry Fitzgerald, Arizona Cardinals
3. Andre Johnson, Houton Texans
4. Wes Welker, New England Patriots
5. Brandon Marshall, WR, Chicago Bears

I think the Top 4 are pretty obvious. Fitzgerald is #2 because of his postseason success he's had while Calvin is #1 because he's simply the best WR in football, and a disgustingly dominant player. In his first postseason game of his career his goes for 211 yards and 2 TDs on 12 catches. Marshall lands #5 for me despite my history of bashing him. I thought when he was with Denver, him and Cutler were going to be one of the best QB/WR combos in the NFL. That, for whatever reason, was broken apart by the front office. Now that they are back together, I expect Marshall to put up 100 catch numbers and finally add double digit TDs to a single season, which is something that he's been lacking his entire career. I'm expecting a huge season from Marshall. That's the only reason he makes it this high.


TE

1. Rob Gronkowski, New England Patriots
2. Jimmy Graham, New Orleans Saints
3. Vernon Davis, San Francisco 49ers
4. Jason Witten, Dallas Cowboys
5. Jermichael Finely, Green Bay Packers

Davis' postseason success shows what kind of ability he has. Of the TEs listed, he has the worst QB trying to get him the ball. He's a flat out beast that would probably make this a three horse race for best TE in the NFL if he had Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees throwing him the ball. Finely is a match up nightmare. He ranks high on my list for that reason. And I'm not too keen on anyone else that isn't aging or on the downfall of their career.


LT

1. Joe Thomas, Cleveland Browns
2. Jake Long, Miami Dolphins
3. Jason Peters, Philadelphia Eagles
4. Duane Brown, Houston Texans
5. Ryan Clady, Denver Broncos

I hate leaving Whitworth off, but Clady was phenomenal last year in pass protection, especially with a QB that held the ball for 10 seconds on most drop backs. Good run blocker too. He's closer to elite than people think. Brown has developed his pass blocking skills, which are now on par with his great run blocking ability. Did he give up a single sack last season? He looks like Peters with his athleticisim and ability in space (at the second and third levels). Jason Peters had the best season of any LT last year, by far, but the injury drops him. Still not enough to completely drop him off my list though. He was that deserving. Roos, Gross, Ferguson and Jared Veldheer are also worth mentioning.


LG

1. Carl Nicks, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
2. Logan Mankins, New England Patriots
3. Mike Iupati, San Francisco 49ers
4. Andy Levitre, Buffalo Bills
5. Stefen Wiesnewski, Oakland Raiders


C

1. Nick Mangold, New York Jets
2. Maurkice Pouncey, Pittsburgh Steelers
3. Ryan Kalil, Carolina Panthers
4. Chris Meyers, Houston Texans
5. Alex Mack, Cleveland Browns / Eric Wood, Buffalo Bills

RG

1. Jahri Evans, New Orleans Saints
2. Chris Kuper, Denver Broncos
3. Chris Snee, New York Giants
4. Marshal Yanda, Baltimore Ravens
5. Harvey Dahl, St Louis Rams

RT

1. Bryan Bulaga, Green Bay Packers
2. David Stewart, Tennessee Titans
3. Tyron Smith, Dallas Cowboys
4. Eric Winston, Kansas City Chiefs
5. Tyson Clabo, Atlanta Falcons

scottyboy
05-03-2012, 06:39 PM
that QB, RB and WR rankings made me want to puke blood

Bixby (Thumper)
05-03-2012, 06:51 PM
Realizing this: Wes Welker, Tyron Smith, Jake Long and Ryan Clady are very overrated.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-03-2012, 06:58 PM
... ryan clady is overrated? um. ok.

Where do you rank him?

BigBanger
05-03-2012, 07:08 PM
Realizing this: Wes Welker, Tyron Smith, Jake Long and Ryan Clady are very overrated.

I used to think Welker was overrated too. Then I realized that a slot WR doing what he does has, well, never been done before. He doesn't have to be 6'5'' and 230 pounds to be an elite player. Does Brady make him better than he might be? Maybe, but can you hold that against him? You look at his production since he's been in New England and its pretty impressive. He also forces opposing defenses to play their best CB in the nickel, and if a defense doesn't have a top CB that can do that, then the Patriots exploit it. He is a game changer. Not the best receiving weapon on his team, but damn good one. And he's coming off a career year.

How is Clady overrated?

Jimmy
05-03-2012, 07:10 PM
How is Clady overrated?

He's "overrated" because he had one of the greatest rookie years in NFL history, and then struggled a bit during the next 2 years with injuries and holding calls. Last year, Clady re-established himself as the Broncos best o-lineman, far and away.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-03-2012, 07:27 PM
I used to think Welker was overrated too. Then I realized that a slot WR doing what he does has, well, never been done before. He doesn't have to be 6'5'' and 230 pounds to be an elite player. Does Brady make him better than he might be? Maybe, but can you hold that against him? You look at his production since he's been in New England and its pretty impressive. He also forces opposing defenses to play their best CB in the nickel, and if a defense doesn't have a top CB that can do that, then the Patriots exploit it. He is a game changer. Not the best receiving weapon on his team, but damn good one. And he's coming off a career year.

How is Clady overrated?

Welker - Good, reliable slot receiver but he isn't dynamic and he won't stretch a defense. In 2009 and 2010, he had 15 20+ yard catches combined. COMBINED. He's not special, he's a volume receiver. And then when teams don't have to focus on him (Randy Moss, Gronk), he takes advantage. He's a #2 receiver. Not a threat to defenses. He doesn't present any mismatches on the outside. He doesn't influence safeties, thats all on Gronk now days. Maybe I'm crazy but I think top receivers are guys who make plays, can win on the outside and be dynamic playmakers as opposed to high usage possession receivers.

How is Clady overrated? He isn't that good? 20 sacks, 13 QB hits and 81 QB pressures allowed over the past three years. 40th in pass blocking efficiency last year, 13th and 21st in 2010 and 2009. He's a decent pass protector despite really good tools and he's a pretty ineffective run blocker. Give me Jake Long, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Andrew Whitworth, Joe Thomas, Duane Brown, Michael Roos, Jared Gaither, Jason Peters, Jordan Gross and Trent Williams over Clady. Toss him in the fringe top 10 pile with Eugene Monroe and Joe Staley.

jackalope
05-03-2012, 08:29 PM
QB
1. Tom Brady
2. Aaron Rodgers - I want to put him #1, but I need more of a track record
3. Drew Brees
4. Ben Roethlisberger
5. Eli Manning - Rounds out the elite tear. Rivers falls to #6 and no longer elite in my book


If you want to say that Brady is #1, that's fine, but this is a really weak argument. Four impressive seasons starting, a Super Bowl MVP, last year's regular season MVP with a 45/6 TD/INT ratio... Are you really not convinced that he's the real deal?

islandboy843
05-03-2012, 08:58 PM
CJ getting no love. I wish he had such a diverse offense to get pressure off him.

ChiFan24
05-03-2012, 09:04 PM
If you want to say that Brady is #1, that's fine, but this is a really weak argument. Four impressive seasons starting, a Super Bowl MVP, last year's regular season MVP with a 45/6 TD/INT ratio... Are you really not convinced that he's the real deal?

For God's sake. Fine. He's #1, I don't care that much. Could there possibly be a more hair splitting argument than Brady vs. Rodgers?

Brady's been awesome for 10 years. Rodgers has been awesome for 4. They're clearly the top 2 players in the NFL, for my money. I need something to separate the two, so I chose the longer track record and the guy that just played in the super bowl.

BigBanger
05-03-2012, 09:06 PM
Welker - Good, reliable slot receiver but he isn't dynamic and he won't stretch a defense. In 2009 and 2010, he had 15 20+ yard catches combined. COMBINED. He's not special, he's a volume receiver. And then when teams don't have to focus on him (Randy Moss, Gronk), he takes advantage. He's a #2 receiver. Not a threat to defenses. He doesn't present any mismatches on the outside. He doesn't influence safeties, thats all on Gronk now days. Maybe I'm crazy but I think top receivers are guys who make plays, can win on the outside and be dynamic playmakers as opposed to high usage possession receivers.

How is Clady overrated? He isn't that good? 20 sacks, 13 QB hits and 81 QB pressures allowed over the past three years. 40th in pass blocking efficiency last year, 13th and 21st in 2010 and 2009. He's a decent pass protector despite really good tools and he's a pretty ineffective run blocker. Give me Jake Long, D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Andrew Whitworth, Joe Thomas, Duane Brown, Michael Roos, Jared Gaither, Jason Peters, Jordan Gross and Trent Williams over Clady. Toss him in the fringe top 10 pile with Eugene Monroe and Joe Staley.


Welker doesn't have to influence safeties, even though I think he does. Safeties are always coming down in the box to defend him in press coverage, but it usually doesn't work. Very few CBs can cover him. Its that simple. But I would agree, he isn't special. He's simply incredibly productive. Before last season I was saying the same thing about him. I don't know why I had a change of heart, but I thought 2011 was a great year for him, by far his best.

I don't know what pass blocking efficency means or where I would even find that kind of stat, but there were not 39 better pass protectors in the NFL last season. There just wasn't. And he's coming off the best season of his career in my opinion (if he had a QB like Cutler who got rid of the ball (while he (Cutler) was in Denver) in about .5 seconds every single play then he'd probably have had allowed .5 sacks again). So I don't know how he could be ranked that low this past season, yet be considered a better OT the two years prior, when he certainly wasn't, according to these pass blocking stats.

jackalope
05-03-2012, 09:32 PM
For God's sake. Fine. He's #1, I don't care that much. Could there possibly be a more hair splitting argument than Brady vs. Rodgers?

Brady's been awesome for 10 years. Rodgers has been awesome for 4. They're clearly the top 2 players in the NFL, for my money. I need something to separate the two, so I chose the longer track record and the guy that just played in the super bowl.

I wasn't saying you were wrong. I was just saying you should at least use a legitimate justification.

mightytitan9
05-03-2012, 09:33 PM
Realizing this: Wes Welker, Tyron Smith, Jake Long and Ryan Clady are very overrated.

add bulaga to that list

Brown Leader
05-03-2012, 11:14 PM
If APO and Charles are injury scratches, why are McFadden, Forte and Jackson on the list. Not that I'm saying they aren't all talented. I actually like your list more but I'd put McFadden at #1 if he could stay healthy. Kubiak has probably never had a RB who didn't gain a 1000 yards, he is some sort of genius at having a running attack so Foster might not do as well with any other team. Oh yeah, where is the toll showing on MJD

AP and Charles injuries are more severe. MJD nagging injuries adding up.

Brown Leader
05-03-2012, 11:19 PM
Darren McFadden is not the 3rd best runningback. He's become so overrated after like 1 1/2 good seasons. It should say something that the Raiders don't miss a beat when Michael Bush was in.

I've been a McFadden "hater" since he was drafted but that one and half seasons was beyond impressive. He's healthy now, so he's 3rd. Mike Bush is underrated ;

_YL_
05-05-2012, 11:05 AM
Ryan Clady gave up 9 sacks last year and 7 holding call which could of made that 9 sacks more if he didn't hold.

scottyboy
05-05-2012, 11:57 AM
he was also blocking for a fullback as a quarterback who had no pocket presence. Just saying

Brodeur
05-05-2012, 01:05 PM
People still consider Clady a top 3-4 tackle?

bigbluedefense
05-05-2012, 01:07 PM
No. He's a top 10 guy to me.

ChiFan24
05-05-2012, 01:21 PM
People still consider Clady a top 3-4 tackle?
You better believe it.

The Alex
05-05-2012, 04:53 PM
QB

1. Peyton Manning
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Drew Brees
4. Tom Brady
5. Matthew Stafford

NOTE: I understand the concern over Peyton's ability to bounce back from neck issues but until he stops being the most important player in football, Peyton will be number one in my book. He just brings things to the table nobody else can offer. The Colts were nothing short of abysmal without him. Also, Eli is phenomenal but I just can't get overlook Stafford's emergence. 5,000 yards and 40 touchdowns in a season is stellar, doing it in your first full season as a starter is absolutely incredible. His arm strength is just below a SAM Turret.

RB

1. Maurice Jones-Drew
2. Arian Foster
3. Ray Rice
4. Adrian Peterson
5. Chris Johnson

NOTE: MJD is able to produce despite being the only player in Jacksonville that opposing defenses have to gameplan for; to me that separates him from everyone else in the league. CJ2K is a homer pick, I hope he can recapture the explosiveness we saw in 2009.

FB

1. Vonta Leach
2. Marcel Reece
3. Ovie Mughelli
4. Jed Collins
5. Le'Ron McClain

NOTE: It would be nice if we had some FB stats to read somewhere.

WR

1. Calvin Johnson
2. Larry Fitzgerald
3. Andre Johnson
4. Roddy White
5. Wes Welker

NOTE: The top three are pretty obvious, it just depends in what order. I'm kinda surprised by the lack of Roddy White in this thread. He has 5 straight seasons with at least 80 catches, 1000 yards and 6 touchdowns - I think only Fitzgerald can match that kind of consistency. I'm putting Welker on here because I can't overlook his ridiculous reception totals. Nicks is obviously a more complete receiver but he doesn't have the staggering numbers of Welker, yet. AJ Green will probably be in consideration for next year's list, too.

TE

1. Rob Gronkowski
2. Jimmy Graham
3. Vernon Davis
4. Jason Witten
5. Tony Gonzalez

NOTE: Gronk is just a biblical beast of a tight end. I can't think of another tight end in recent memory that had such a great combination of blocking and receiving. Gonzalez is on here because he's the GOAT at the position and still productive.

LT

1. Joe Thomas
2. Jason Peters
3. Jake Long
4. Duane Brown
5. Michael Roos

NOTE: I know Peters is hurt but he's so damn good I can't leave him off.

LG

1. Carl Nicks
2. Logan Mankins
3. Evan Mathis
4. Mike Iupati
5. Andy Levitre

NOTE: I don't care if the Saints didn't pursue Nicks harder, the guy can block trucks.

C

1. Nick Mangold
2. Chris Myers
3. Scott Wells
4. Eric Wood
5. Ryan Kalil

RG

1. Jahri Evans
2. Josh Sitton
3. Marshal Yanda
4. Harvey Dahl
5. Brian Waters

RT

1. David Stewart
2. Eric Winston
3. Tyron Smith
4. Bryan Bulaga
5. Tyson Clabo

NOTE: Stewart is a bit of a homer pick but there is no denying he is elite.

Bulldogs
05-05-2012, 04:54 PM
The issue with Roddy last year was drops. He dropped a couple game winning balls and was really never consistent over the year. Hopefully he returns to form this season, because he was a beast before. An improved Julio and Roddy White showing up again would make our offense pretty killer.

The Alex
05-05-2012, 05:03 PM
Even if Roddy dropped some important catches, he still caught more than anybody else in the NFC. I understand circumstance and "when it matters" and all that, but he's still a damn fine receiver.

GallopingGhost
05-05-2012, 05:08 PM
Wes Welker has to be considered a top 10 guy.

Bulldogs
05-05-2012, 05:09 PM
Even if Roddy dropped some important catches, he still caught more than anybody else in the NFC. I understand circumstance and "when it matters" and all that, but he's still a damn fine receiver.

I'd have to look at the stats but I'd be willing to bet he was targeted much more as well. Hell, Julio Jones when healthy last year looked better than Roddy. It wasn't just a couple balls. Still, I'd consider Roddy top 10 right now and if he works hard this offseason I have no doubt he'll return to '08-10 form.

Complex
05-05-2012, 05:11 PM
i'd put clady, as mentioned, somewhere between 4-8ish, probably. he's a step below the elite guys.

Isn't top 5 elite?

Rosebud
05-05-2012, 05:22 PM
Isn't top 5 elite?

Is Eli, big Ben, Stafford, rivers or whoever is your#5 QB as good as Brady, Rodgers, Peyton and Brees?

doingthisinsteadofwork
05-05-2012, 06:58 PM
People still think Michael Bush is underated? He handled the load for a grand total of four games and then played like dogshit. And to bears fans, just pray to god they don't keep him in on passing downs, Cutler will have his head taken off.
He's good with ball security though, I'll give him that.

TitanHope
05-06-2012, 12:19 AM
RG

1. Jahri Evans
2. Harvey Dahl
3. Marshal Yanda
4. Jake Scott
5. Brian Waters

Why in God's name do you have Jake Scott in your Top 5, BB?

tjsunstein
05-06-2012, 12:27 AM
I think Curtis Painter being bottom 3 players ever contributed a lot to the Colts lack of success too. Put Painter at the helm of NO and I bet he struggles to average 150 yards of total offense. Peyton is good but no way is he better than Brees, Brady, Rodgers now if he wasn't before... I think he's a bit overrated at this point if you have him Top 3. He didn't play a whole season. You can't replace that missed time.

bearsfan_51
05-06-2012, 12:34 AM
People still think Michael Bush is underated? He handled the load for a grand total of four games and then played like dogshit. And to bears fans, just pray to god they don't keep him in on passing downs, Cutler will have his head taken off.
He's good with ball security though, I'll give him that.
Ah yes, the "he's not on my team anymore so now I think he's terrible" routine. It's a standard practice in the off-season. Bush is a great #2 back.

RCAChainGang
05-06-2012, 01:47 AM
^Love it when people say "this" league. As if they're in it in any form themselves. :P

Anywhozers, I haven't seen Brandon Marshall on any ones list. Wussupwitdat?

4r1i-eoBtyw&feature
:55 - 1:05

doingthisinsteadofwork
05-07-2012, 08:40 PM
Ah yes, the "he's not on my team anymore so now I think he's terrible" routine. It's a standard practice in the off-season. Bush is a great #2 back.bearsfan using a hasty generalization, who'd a thunk?
Saying Michael Bush is underrated would have made more sense about 2-3 years ago, as it would imply he isn't seeing enough playing time or a big enough salary, or enough attention in general. But after the amount of playing time he has seen the past two seasons, based off his performance, I fail to see how he is underated.

gpngc
05-09-2012, 01:22 AM
01. Aaron Rodgers
02. Peyton Manning
03. Tom Brady
04. Drew Brees
05. Eli Manning
06. Ben Roethlisberger
07. Philip Rivers
08. Matt Stafford
09. Jay Cutler
10. Michael Vick
11. Cam Newton
12. Tony Romo
13. Matt Ryan
14. Matt Schaub
15. Joe Flacco
16. Carson Palmer
17. Ryan Fitzpatrick
18. Matt Hasselbeck
19. Josh Freeman
20. Andy Dalton

RB
01. Adrian Peterson
02. LeSean McCoy
03. Ray Rice
04. Maurice Jones-Drew
05. Arian Foster
06. Matt Forte
07. Marshawn Lynch
08. Darren McFadden
09. Steven Jackson
10. Chris Johnson
11. Jamaal Charles
12. Willis McGahee
13. Frank Gore
14. Fred Jackson
15. Reggie Bush
16. Darren Sproles
17. Jahvid Best
18. Ryan Mathews
19. Ahamd Bradshaw
20. Jonathan Stewart
21. DeMarco Murray
22. LeGarrette Blount
23. Beanie Wells
24. C.J. Spiller
25. DeAngelo Williams
26. Roy Helu
27. Rashard Mendenhall
28. Michael Turner
29. Ben Tate
30. Pierre Thomas
31. Michael Bush
32. BenJarvus Green-Ellis
33. Peyton Hillis
34. Mark Ingram
35. Shonn Greene

WR
01. Calvin Johnson
02. Larry Fitzgerald
03. Andre Johnson
04. Greg Jennings
05. Steve Smith
06. Hakeem Nicks
07. Mike Wallace
08. Brandon Marshall
09. A.J. Green
10. Dwayne Bowe
11. Julio Jones
12. Jordy Nelson
13. Percy Harvin
14. Roddy White
15. Reggie Wayne
16. DeSean Jackson
17. Kenny Britt
18. Marques Colston
19. Santonio Holmes
20. Dez Bryant
21. Vincent Jackson
22. Jeremy Maclin
23. Wes Welker
24. Victor Cruz
25. Antonio Brown
26. Steve Johnson
27. Miles Austin
28. Sidney Rice
29. Brandon Lloyd
30. Laurent Robinson
31. Eric Decker
32. Nate Washington
33. Demariyus Thomas
34. Pierre Garcon
35. Denarius Moore
36. Anquan Boldin
37. Michael Crabtree
38. Darrius Heyward-Bey
39. Torrey Smith
40. Mike Williams TB
41. Robert Meachem

RCAChainGang
05-09-2012, 06:13 AM
I just glanced at that list to be honest, but Michael Turner at 28? I'd have him in my top 15 at least.

K Train
05-09-2012, 11:38 AM
that running back list gets rough after 6

SuperMcGee
05-09-2012, 12:30 PM
I sort of agree. Jackson was way ahead of Lynch when that trade happened and just played the best of his career last season. There's the youth factor, but Jackson is a much, much better asset in the passing game. Lynch drops below a number of other guys, for me.

Also couldn't say I'm that high on McGahee. He does still impress me some of the time and there aren't too many well established guys beneath him (that aren't tailing off), but meh.

mightytitan9
05-09-2012, 12:53 PM
that running back list gets rough after 6

I agree, it seems like there's the 3-4 guys that are on top, then you could put the next 5-7 in different orders.

And I agree on McGahee, I think i'd have a hard time ranking him top 20

gpngc
05-09-2012, 01:55 PM
McGahee played brilliantly last season and Turner is a shell of himself at this point that only had respectable numbers because of two monster games against the skeleton defense of Tampa that gave up completely.

And Lynch produced in the passing game and was easily better than everyone ranked below him on that list, save for maybe Fred Jackson, and maybe talent-wise DMac or Charles (who obviously fall due to not playing).

tjsunstein
05-09-2012, 01:57 PM
Julio Jones over Jordy Nelson? I'm not so sure about that. Is it just the homer in me or does anyone else agree?

gpngc
05-09-2012, 01:58 PM
Jones is more talented, but Nelson is arguably the better receiver at this point, so it's a fair argument.

tjsunstein
05-09-2012, 02:02 PM
Jones is more talented, but Nelson is arguably the better receiver at this point, so it's a fair argument.
There's not much discrepancy between the two no matter who is above the other, and I'm probably nitpicking, but Jones hasn't shown me on the field or stat sheet that he is a better WR than Nelson although there's no denying his potential. I obviously watch more of Jordy than any other WR on a week to week basis so I may not be as objective as someone else.

Nalej
05-09-2012, 02:04 PM
Welker at 23 is a joke. Homer or no homer.

mightytitan9
05-09-2012, 02:06 PM
Julio Jones over Jordy Nelson? I'm not so sure about that. Is it just the homer in me or does anyone else agree?

I noticed that too. Making these lists are hard, so I don't make too much of a fuss about little things like that.

To me, Dez Bryant, Miles Austin, Victor Cruz are way too low.

While guys like: AJ Green, Julio Jones, Percy Harvin are way too high

gpngc
05-09-2012, 04:07 PM
Welker at 23 is a joke. Homer or no homer.

Nope. Welker's a nice player, but all the guys ranked above him are better. If Harvin occupied that role with NE, he'd prove this.

When Edleman came in for Welker, the offense didn't skip a beat.

He's a good player, and very good at what he does from the inside, but he's not a better overall player than the guys ranked above him (only argument I can see is Maclin).

Sportsfan486
05-09-2012, 07:35 PM
Julio Jones over Jordy Nelson? I'm not so sure about that. Is it just the homer in me or does anyone else agree?

As much as I like Jordy Nelson, I would take Julio over him. Sorry, I just would. Jordy is an extremely solid guy that gives you lots of versatility but Julio Jones, to me, has the potential to be a top-5 absolute game-breaking receiver. His speed/explosion/height combination is just a notch behind Megatron and, in my opinion, superior to Andre Johnson at this point (although AJ is obviously a far superior overall WR.)

Mufasa
05-09-2012, 08:41 PM
You mean like a 1200 yard 15 TD kind of WR?

mightytitan9
05-09-2012, 08:54 PM
I don't know, when I look at these rankings I'm looking at how they rank among players right now. Not who I would take, if you're going by that then you're going to over value based on youth and disregard people who are getting up there in age.

Either way, I'd take Jordy though. He's a complete WR and his route tree is far superior to Jones at this point IMO. Jones was very up and down as a rookie and really only exploded against bad defenses.

Pack_Attack_4
05-10-2012, 12:07 AM
QB
1. A rod
2. Brady
3 Brees
4.Mannings
5. Newton

RB
1. AP
2.Foster
3.Mccoy
4.Lynch
5.DMC

WR
1.Megatron
2.Jennings
3.Jordy
4.Andre Johnson
5.Fitz

TE
1.Gronk
2.Graham
3.Davis
4.Witten
5.Finly

T
1.Long
2.Tohmas
3.Peters
4.Bulaga
5.Penn

G
1.Nicks
2.Evans
3.Sittion
4.Mankins
5.Wininski

C
1.Mangold
2.Kaili
3.Pouncey
4.Mack
5.Saturday

FB
1.Kuhn
2.Leatch
3.Reece

TheBoyWonder22
05-10-2012, 12:17 AM
QB
1. A rod
2. Brady
3 Brees
4.Mannings
5. Newton

RB
1. AP
2.Foster
3.Mccoy
4.Lynch
5.DMC

WR
1.Megatron
2.Jennings
3.Jordy
4.Andre Johnson
5.Fitz

TE
1.Gronk
2.Graham
3.Davis
4.Witten
5.Finly

T
1.Long
2.Tohmas
3.Peters
4.Bulaga
5.Penn

G
1.Nicks
2.Evans
3.Sittion
4.Mankins
5.Wininski

C
1.Mangold
2.Kaili
3.Pouncey
4.Mack
5.Saturday

FB
1.Kuhn
2.Leatch
3.Reece
Your receiver rankings are beyond ********. Kuhn sucks, Saturday sucks, Lynch over Ray Rice AND MJD...Newton number 5...I hope I was cruel enough.

tjsunstein
05-10-2012, 12:37 AM
As much as I like Jordy Nelson, I would take Julio over him. Sorry, I just would. Jordy is an extremely solid guy that gives you lots of versatility but Julio Jones, to me, has the potential to be a top-5 absolute game-breaking receiver. His speed/explosion/height combination is just a notch behind Megatron and, in my opinion, superior to Andre Johnson at this point (although AJ is obviously a far superior overall WR.)

I still don't get what you expect from Julio's potential then. 2000 yards and 20 TDs? Jordy just put up 70 1200 and 15. Let's not forget what he fid in the playoff run to the SB and IN the SB. What was it? 9 for 140 and a TD. Game breaking I'd say if you can do that in the biggest game of the season.

mightytitan9
05-10-2012, 01:45 AM
I still don't get what you expect from Julio's potential then. 2000 yards and 20 TDs? Jordy just put up 70 1200 and 15. Let's not forget what he fid in the playoff run to the SB and IN the SB. What was it? 9 for 140 and a TD. Game breaking I'd say if you can do that in the biggest game of the season.

but he's white, so people automatically don't proclaim him a game changer or a legitimate #1 WR

bigbluedefense
05-10-2012, 07:11 AM
What I don't get is, if Welker is so replaceable, then why aren't there more Wes Welkers in the league?

Welker is a damn good player, and the best slot WR in the game (Cruz could overtake him in the future though). The slot WR is just as vital if not more vital to the passing game than the outside guys.

Scotty D
05-10-2012, 07:27 AM
Production vs. Talent. Things kind of get blurry in that kind of debate. Certain guys are in situations where they put up bigger numbers than "more talented" players. But in the end isn't the point of football to see who can score the most TDs and gain the most yards.

tjsunstein
05-10-2012, 09:02 AM
Production vs. Talent. Things kind of get blurry in that kind of debate. Certain guys are in situations where they put up bigger numbers than "more talented" players. But in the end isn't the point of football to see who can score the most TDs and gain the most yards.

Talent doesn't always produce but production always takes talent. Julio was targeted more times than Jordy last year, fwiw.

fenikz
05-10-2012, 09:03 AM
Production vs. Talent. Things kind of get blurry in that kind of debate. Certain guys are in situations where they put up bigger numbers than "more talented" players. But in the end isn't the point of football to see who can score the most TDs and gain the most yards.

example: Larry Fitzgerald is the GOAT but only puts up mere HOF numbers

just saw GPNGC's avy and puked a little, what an combination abomination

bigbluedefense
05-10-2012, 10:57 AM
Production vs. Talent. Things kind of get blurry in that kind of debate. Certain guys are in situations where they put up bigger numbers than "more talented" players. But in the end isn't the point of football to see who can score the most TDs and gain the most yards.

Welker isn't the only slot WR in this league with a great quarterback. He's also not the only WR who plays in a pass happy offense. And he's also the #1 WR on the team regardless of where he lines up, so he's going against the better CBs in this league.

Pack_Attack_4
05-10-2012, 11:03 PM
Your receiver rankings are beyond ********. Kuhn sucks, Saturday sucks, Lynch over Ray Rice AND MJD...Newton number 5...I hope I was cruel enough.

Too cruel mam

bearsfan_51
05-10-2012, 11:17 PM
bearsfan using a hasty generalization, who'd a thunk?
Saying Michael Bush is underrated would have made more sense about 2-3 years ago, as it would imply he isn't seeing enough playing time or a big enough salary, or enough attention in general. But after the amount of playing time he has seen the past two seasons, based off his performance, I fail to see how he is underated.
Funny that you would say that, since I have no idea who you are.

I don't know who said Bush was underrated, but it wasn't me. I was merely responding to you trying to run him down like he's dog meat, which is common practice among fans once a player leaves for greener pastures (which would be about anywhere else in the case of Oakland)

Brodeur
05-10-2012, 11:32 PM
Funny that you would say that, since I have no idea who you are.

I don't know who said Bush was underrated, but it wasn't me. I was merely responding to you trying to run him down like he's dog meat, which is common practice among fans once a player leaves for greener pastures (which would be about anywhere else in the case of Oakland)

http://i49.tinypic.com/2nan32s.gif

Bixby (Thumper)
05-10-2012, 11:48 PM
What I don't get is, if Welker is so replaceable, then why aren't there more Wes Welkers in the league?

Welker is a damn good player, and the best slot WR in the game (Cruz could overtake him in the future though). The slot WR is just as vital if not more vital to the passing game than the outside guys.

What other slot receivers are featured the same way Welker is? Nobody else is used quite as much. How can we say that Welker is super special if no one else is even getting a chance? Welker had the most targets and highest target % in the slot last year.

And guys like Victor Cruz, Danny Amendola and Steve Smith have put up similar efforts in recent years. Not like Welker hasn't been matched. Cruz put up 1200+ yards from the slot last year, Amendola had 77 receptions and 648 yards in 2010. Steve Smith had 80 receptions and 855 yards in 2009 from the slot. Other players like Jason Avant, Miles Austin, Marques Colston, Percy Harvin and Greg Jennings have been similarly efficient and more dynamic while in the slot but not featured there quite like Welker is.

And I disagree that a good slot receiver is "vital" to a passing game. The Saints, Packers, Lions, Chargers, Cowboys, Eagles and Steelers all had top 10 passing games and none of them had anyone as productive as Welker and Cruz.

The Alex
05-11-2012, 02:30 AM
Can we get a defense thread going?

The Alex
05-11-2012, 02:35 AM
QB
5. Newton

RB
4.Lynch
5.DMC

WR
2.Jennings
3.Jordy

T
4.Bulaga
5.Penn

G
5.Wininski

FB
1.Kuhn

http://s6.tinypic.com/ojxbl.jpg

bigbluedefense
05-11-2012, 07:39 AM
What other slot receivers are featured the same way Welker is? Nobody else is used quite as much. How can we say that Welker is super special if no one else is even getting a chance? Welker had the most targets and highest target % in the slot last year.

And guys like Victor Cruz, Danny Amendola and Steve Smith have put up similar efforts in recent years. Not like Welker hasn't been matched. Cruz put up 1200+ yards from the slot last year, Amendola had 77 receptions and 648 yards in 2010. Steve Smith had 80 receptions and 855 yards in 2009 from the slot. Other players like Jason Avant, Miles Austin, Marques Colston, Percy Harvin and Greg Jennings have been similarly efficient and more dynamic while in the slot but not featured there quite like Welker is.

And I disagree that a good slot receiver is "vital" to a passing game. The Saints, Packers, Lions, Chargers, Cowboys, Eagles and Steelers all had top 10 passing games and none of them had anyone as productive as Welker and Cruz.

None of those other WRs you stated were the #1 target of the defense like Welker is. Welker is the only WR worth a damn on that team, and he still gets his. Everybody and their mom knows what Welker is gonna do in the slot and still nobody can stop it.

As for the other WRs who move around, yeah they are productive in the slot too. They are productive WRs period. I'm not questioning that other WRs can't be productive either but when you look at how ridiculously productive Welker has been, I think it's unfair to just assume that he's the product of some system like everyone wants to believe. You don't get that kind of production by just being a product of the system. The guy is good. Very good. And he's the primary focus of CB coverage and still gets his.

As for not needing a slot, I disagree. All of those teams you stated don't have a designated "slot" WR but they attack the slot all day long. The Saints pretty much run 4 plays over and over again out of different formations, and the basis of all 4 plays is their ability to attack the middle of the field with guys like Graham and Colston, and they line both up in the slot often (along with Meachem and several others) and use the same concepts to attack the defense.

The Packers do the same thing with Jennings and Finley. Don't look at it as a slot WR, I probably should have worded it differently, whoever lines up in space in the slot is the key to most offensive concepts in today's passing game. That's probably a better way of putting it. Now how you attack defenses from that position and what routes you run and body types you throw in there is dependent on the system and preferences of the coach, but the overall blueprint is the same. Most teams have that player running some kind of choice route to attack the defense.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-11-2012, 07:59 AM
I don't see what's so special about him. He gets a ton of targets and he takes advantage. He runs great routes and he's crafty but other than that, what's great? He's not a dynamic player and he plays inside a bunch where he takes advantage of nickelbacks, linebackers and safeties.

Honestly, I think that guys like Jason Avant, Danny Amendola and Lance Moore could match Welker's production if they were given 150+ targets a season. And I think guys like Miles Austin, Percy Harvin, Marques Colston, Greg Jennings, etc. etc. would be better if they played as many snaps in the slot and were given 150+ targets a year.

I don't think Welkers a bum or anything, I think he's a good player in a great situation. And I don't think he's a primary target. His worst season came in Gronk and Hernandez's rookie year when Randy Moss left. And then he picked right back up in 2011 once Gronkowski became an absolute force that demanded attention. Without Randy Moss or a non-rookie Rob Gronkowski, his production dropped.

And I'll concede to that, having a passing option who can manipulate the middle of the field is a fantastic thing to have.

gpngc
05-11-2012, 01:16 PM
I don't see what's so special about him. He gets a ton of targets and he takes advantage. He runs great routes and he's crafty but other than that, what's great? He's not a dynamic player and he plays inside a bunch where he takes advantage of nickelbacks, linebackers and safeties.

Honestly, I think that guys like Jason Avant, Danny Amendola and Lance Moore could match Welker's production if they were given 150+ targets a season. And I think guys like Miles Austin, Percy Harvin, Marques Colston, Greg Jennings, etc. etc. would be better if they played as many snaps in the slot and were given 150+ targets a year.

I don't think Welkers a bum or anything, I think he's a good player in a great situation. And I don't think he's a primary target. His worst season came in Gronk and Hernandez's rookie year when Randy Moss left. And then he picked right back up in 2011 once Gronkowski became an absolute force that demanded attention. Without Randy Moss or a non-rookie Rob Gronkowski, his production dropped.

And I'll concede to that, having a passing option who can manipulate the middle of the field is a fantastic thing to have.

He's a very good player in a GREAT situation. Beautifully worded.

The NE offense is nothing like any other offense in the NFL. Welker is sometimes a substitute for their running game.

When he's the No. 1 option in their passing attack, it's an issue. It's Gronkowski now and was Moss before him.

And I can't get the SB drop out of my head (or the 4th-and-2 against Indy). The great receivers I listed above Welker all usually make plays like those (save for Maclin). I know it's a nit-picky point, but it's one that stands out.

cmarq83
05-11-2012, 02:50 PM
I don't see what's so special about him. He gets a ton of targets and he takes advantage. He runs great routes and he's crafty but other than that, what's great? He's not a dynamic player and he plays inside a bunch where he takes advantage of nickelbacks, linebackers and safeties.

Honestly, I think that guys like Jason Avant, Danny Amendola and Lance Moore could match Welker's production if they were given 150+ targets a season. And I think guys like Miles Austin, Percy Harvin, Marques Colston, Greg Jennings, etc. etc. would be better if they played as many snaps in the slot and were given 150+ targets a year.

I don't think Welkers a bum or anything, I think he's a good player in a great situation. And I don't think he's a primary target. His worst season came in Gronk and Hernandez's rookie year when Randy Moss left. And then he picked right back up in 2011 once Gronkowski became an absolute force that demanded attention. Without Randy Moss or a non-rookie Rob Gronkowski, his production dropped.

And I'll concede to that, having a passing option who can manipulate the middle of the field is a fantastic thing to have.

I really don't go to bat for Wes all that often, but there is plenty of special attributes about him. His short area quickness is among the best in the game, he gets to top speed very quickly, he's very crafty at times with his routes, his whip route is legendary, he has a nose for the sticks, he is a very balanced and creative runner after the catch, and for such a guy with such a small body he does a great job of using his body to shield defenders from getting to the football. He gets killed for that SB drop which is fair, but he didn't have a drop last year until one of the last weeks of the season despite over 150 targets.

The 2010 season is pretty much the result of a January ACL tear that year, not because Moss was gone or that Gronkowski hadn't developed yet. Do those guys help? They sure do, but lets not pretend that he's JAG without them.

I honestly think sometimes people just want to believe that all Wes runs is bubble screens and drag routes. You can bring him down for being an extension of the running game, but not everybody can get immediate separation right off the snap like he does. He runs more of a full route tree than most, and if you watch this video you'll see him do damage on plenty of routes 15+ yards down the field.

bg01TtmN3ok

I'm not going to argue him top 10, but putting him behind guys like Harvin, Maclin, Britt, Holmes, and Bryant isn't correct. The guy just had a 1500 yard season, give the man his due.

Cudders
05-11-2012, 04:11 PM
Welker is underrated if he isnít at least a fringe top ten receiver on these lists. I suppose arguments could even be made for him starting at four based on his video game-esque production. Because his production, slot receiver or not, speaks for itself. Heís a prolific, ultra-reliable chain-mover and that is a critical cornerstone of successful, sustained offense in the NFL. And Welker isnít just good or great at it. Right now, heís the best in the NFL at it. Thatís an important distinction. Cruz is his closest counterpart, but Iíd still give a conscious edge to Welker.

His designation as a slot receiver shouldnít be held against him. Thatís the role he has carved out for himself and he excels at it. Across the NFL and college football, offenses are attacking defenses from advantageous areas of space and the slot is often the focal point of those concerted efforts. In the past, the slot was viewed as an outlet. A check-down that wasnít dangerous when isolated, but could do their jobs and fill their roles and produce for their offenses. Now, given the ever-evolving state of the league, the slot is being utilized as a true weapon in some schemes. Defenses canít (and, in most cases, donít) just forget about Welker because he doesnít fit the traditional mold of a top-flight receiver. Heís still given preferential treatment or the defense gets burned for their neglect.

Welker is the prototype of his position for a reason. His skill set encompasses all of the core attributes required in a slot receiver. Heís a better field athlete than track athlete. Heís got great short-area athleticism to gain separation in man coverage situations. Heís got a soft set of hands. He runs crisp, fluid, and meticulous routes. His route-running is as clinical as it comes. Heís mastered nuances like setting up his defender and shifting their weight distribution. He breaks down pass patterns to the precise angle and half-step. But whatís most impressive is how he thinks the game. He thinks it like a quarterback. When he dissects the back seven, he sees the same thing his quarterback does. Therefore, the coaching staff doesnít have to limit him and the quarterback doesnít have to tailor to him, which is priceless. Those traits trump all of his measurable shortcomings.

Granted, I donít consider Welker elite. Heís not Johnson, Johnson, or Fitzgerald. No other receiver in the NFL measures up to that high standard either though. And I think Welker is in his perfect scheme for achieving statistical dominance, too. That said, if I had to rank the top receivers, Welker would still be somewhere in the second half of that top ten. Even if we extract him from New Englandís scheme and evaluate just him, his skill set is evident.

Rosebud
05-11-2012, 05:11 PM
Welker's in that tier behind the top 3 were every other stud resides, Nicks, Cruz, Dez with a strong season, Miles Austin if healthy, Maclin, Jennings, Jordyzz, Marshall, Colston, Steve Smith, Vincent Jackson, Rhoddy White, AJ Green, Mike Wallace, Welker, Britt when healthy, Bowe, Julio, etc. All of those guys have similar talent, and it's awesome, just not as awesome as the top 3 and how you rank them comes down to after which season you're to rank them.

Mufasa
05-11-2012, 05:15 PM
Yeah there really are a ton of very good WRs. It's the strongest the position has ever been 1-25 or so.

gpngc
05-14-2012, 02:30 AM
If you in any way shape or form believe Wes Welker is a better receiver than Dez Bryant then I don't know what to tell you. All it would take would be watching one game of each player... wow.

Cudders
05-15-2012, 12:59 AM
If you in any way shape or form believe Wes Welker is a better receiver than Dez Bryant then I don't know what to tell you. All it would take would be watching one game of each player... wow.

I donít think itís that simple. Youíre weighing the measurable side of the equation too much. If measurables were the perfect predictor for NFL success, the Combine would have a flawless track record of evaluating talent, but we know thatís not the case. Yes, Dez is bigger, faster, and stronger than Welker. Itís clear that Dez is the superior specimen. One game can show that much, sure. Being able to run faster and jump higher doesnít guarantee a superior skill set though. Itís an important part of the evaluation process, but it isnít the be-all and end-all.

Rankings can be fun to do as fans, but itís important to keep sight of the fact that there are few absolutes in football. For example, take Dez and Welker. Both have big-time skill sets that allow them to step onto the field and produce at a high level. From an overall talent and tools perspective, Dez has the loftier ceiling. He has shown that heís better suited to work the perimeter and handle the deeper regions of the passing tree. But Welker has one of the smoothest underneath games in the entire NFL and his other football skills are underrated, too.

Dez would struggle filling Welkerís role in the Patriotsí offense. With the amount of run-and-shoot concepts that New England implements, and the demanding responsibilities bestowed upon Welker in those option route situations, I have a tough time believing that Dez could just step right in there and replicate Welkerís ridiculous production. Heís never demonstrated the kind of rare football aptitude required to do that. Weíve seen talented receivers fail to acclimate themselves in New England before. Itís a taxing offense for wide outs. Most receivers arenít used to breaking things down and then reacting to that processed information in a split-second. Thinking on the football field prevents people from reaching their full athletic potential. On paper, Dez might have more flash and power in his game, but each hesitant step begins to add up as a snap runs its course.

And Welker would struggle to accomplish what Dez does for Dallas. What makes Welker special are his sharp instincts and mental faculties. An offense predicated on stricter, more defined route concepts marginalizes those qualities to a degree. Freeing himself from coverage with deception and smarts becomes a more difficult challenge on a snap-to-snap basis. Not to mention, the increased perimeter alignments and vertical patterns remove Welker from what he does best, which is busting underneath coverages from the slot.

So, to me, itís not all that ridiculous to suggest Welker is a better receiver than Dez. Both have unique talents that will shine when utilized in the proper scheme and would fall on a similar tier.

gpngc
05-15-2012, 01:47 AM
I donít think itís that simple. Youíre weighing the measurable side of the equation too much. If measurables were the perfect predictor for NFL success, the Combine would have a flawless track record of evaluating talent, but we know thatís not the case. Yes, Dez is bigger, faster, and stronger than Welker. Itís clear that Dez is the superior specimen. One game can show that much, sure. Being able to run faster and jump higher doesnít guarantee a superior skill set though. Itís an important part of the evaluation process, but it isnít the be-all and end-all.

Rankings can be fun to do as fans, but itís important to keep sight of the fact that there are few absolutes in football. For example, take Dez and Welker. Both have big-time skill sets that allow them to step onto the field and produce at a high level. From an overall talent and tools perspective, Dez has the loftier ceiling. He has shown that heís better suited to work the perimeter and handle the deeper regions of the passing tree. But Welker has one of the smoothest underneath games in the entire NFL and his other football skills are underrated, too.

Dez would struggle filling Welkerís role in the Patriotsí offense. With the amount of run-and-shoot concepts that New England implements, and the demanding responsibilities bestowed upon Welker in those option route situations, I have a tough time believing that Dez could just step right in there and replicate Welkerís ridiculous production. Heís never demonstrated the kind of rare football aptitude required to do that. Weíve seen talented receivers fail to acclimate themselves in New England before. Itís a taxing offense for wide outs. Most receivers arenít used to breaking things down and then reacting to that processed information in a split-second. Thinking on the football field prevents people from reaching their full athletic potential. On paper, Dez might have more flash and power in his game, but each hesitant step begins to add up as a snap runs its course.

And Welker would struggle to accomplish what Dez does for Dallas. What makes Welker special are his sharp instincts and mental faculties. An offense predicated on stricter, more defined route concepts marginalizes those qualities to a degree. Freeing himself from coverage with deception and smarts becomes a more difficult challenge on a snap-to-snap basis. Not to mention, the increased perimeter alignments and vertical patterns remove Welker from what he does best, which is busting underneath coverages from the slot.

So, to me, itís not all that ridiculous to suggest Welker is a better receiver than Dez. Both have unique talents that will shine when utilized in the proper scheme and would fall on a similar tier.

Julian Edleman stepped in for Welker and filled his role just fine. Darren Sproles' role with NO wasn't really much different than Welker's. Option routes, outs and angle routes.

Just like you say, Dez would struggle playing inside in NE, and Welker would struggle (probably mightily) facing top CBs outside in Dallas. My argument is that there a lot more players who could occupy Welker's role and make a similar impact than there are that could win outside like a Dez.

Welker's very good at what he does, and you describe it nicely, but there are a bunch of quick, smart receivers who could do a similar job in that role.

The same cannot be said for outside guys who can consistently win (and score more/more YPC) against top outside DBs and make big plays.

As for Welker vs. Harvin, Harvin's just better in almost every way. He's faster, stronger, better after the catch, has better hands (Welker drops passes but is a volume stat guy), and can actually win on the outside/vertically.

Rosebud
05-15-2012, 08:00 AM
If you in any way shape or form believe Wes Welker is a better receiver than Dez Bryant then I don't know what to tell you. All it would take would be watching one game of each player... wow.

Dude really? Giants fan, I've seen a lot of Dez and Welker. Over the course the season Welker impacts the game more. Dez may have more visually impressive moments of dominance but over the course of the season the results of Welker's play are much more dominant than what Dez has done so far. Ultimately the results have to speak for themselves and the results are that no receiver works the inside as well as Welker, few are as agile and sudden in their cuts, and few have the intelligence to read coverages as well as he does. Cruz is getting because he's more explosive, but Welker is still King and belongs in the second tier of great WRs.

bigbluedefense
05-15-2012, 08:06 AM
This pretty much summarizes the opinions on Welker:

For
Extremely productive, great short area quickness and route runner, difficult to cover even when the focal point of the DBs, best slot WR in the league.

Against
He's not big, he's not athletic, other guys are big and athletic so even though they don't produce like him they are clearly better than him bc they are big and athletic and he's not.

Not every WR needs to be 6 5" and run a 4.4 guys. That doesn't automatically make you a great WR.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-15-2012, 08:33 AM
yeah, i mean, just think what would happen if welker had to line up opposite revis twice a year, and beat him. :njx:

Yep. 2 receptions for 18 yards when matched up against Revis last year. Beat him like a drum. :njx:

AntoinCD
05-15-2012, 08:34 AM
Don't forget Dez Bryant and Percy Harvin were both first rounders and Wes Welker wasn't drafted. I don't even need to watch games to know who's better!!!

In all seriousness, I don't understand people who just say that Welker's role can be taken by any smart, quick WR. Why aren't more of them producing like Welker does then?

People said once Randy Moss left and the Pats stopped being able to strecth the field that Welker's production would drop but he had his best year last year with literally no one of note playing outside the hashes who could go vertical.

There still seems to be a real stigma attached to "slot" WRs.

Saying Welker isn't as good as others because he can't play out wide is like saying that Ryan Clady is a better offensive lineman than Carl Nicks because Nicks can't play LT. They are two different positions and require two different skill sets

Giantsfan1080
05-15-2012, 08:35 AM
Yep. 2 receptions for 18 yards when matched up against Revis last year. Beat him like a drum. :njx:

Where do you find player on player matchups like that?

Bixby (Thumper)
05-15-2012, 08:39 AM
Where do you find player on player matchups like that?

I invested 20 bucks in profootballfocus last August as a resource for an Eagles blog I own. Rankings and grades are insane sometimes but good for stats like that.

bigbluedefense
05-15-2012, 08:39 AM
Don't forget Dez Bryant and Percy Harvin were both first rounders and Wes Welker wasn't drafted. I don't even need to watch games to know who's better!!!

In all seriousness, I don't understand people who just say that Welker's role can be taken by any smart, quick WR. Why aren't more of them producing like Welker does then?

People said once Randy Moss left and the Pats stopped being able to strecth the field that Welker's production would drop but he had his best year last year with literally no one of note playing outside the hashes who could go vertical.

There still seems to be a real stigma attached to "slot" WRs.

Saying Welker isn't as good as others because he can't play out wide is like saying that Ryan Clady is a better offensive lineman than Carl Nicks because Nicks can't play LT. They are two different positions and require two different skill sets

This this and more this.

And please, don't bring up Revis. Revis held Calvin Johnson to 1 catch for 7 yards. ZOMG Calvin suckzzzz right?

Revis shuts everybody down.

bigbluedefense
05-15-2012, 08:40 AM
I invested 20 bucks in profootballfocus last August as a resource for an Eagles blog I own. Rankings and grades are insane sometimes but good for stats like that.

Weren't you supposed to crawl back in your hole after your idiotic predictions fell flat on their ass last year JBX?

Bixby (Thumper)
05-15-2012, 08:51 AM
or 5 for 125 in one game the year before :njx:

didn't you make a bet about not coming back after the giants won last year, or are we going to pretend you're not JBCX?

Except for that didn't happen against Revis. Against Revis in 2010 Welker had 1 reception for 11 yards in two games. Was only targeted twice. :njx:

And I swear on whatever you want me to swear on that I have no idea who that guy is. Check the IP addresses. Do whatever. Not me.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-15-2012, 09:00 AM
And please, don't bring up Revis. Revis held Calvin Johnson to 1 catch for 7 yards. ZOMG Calvin suckzzzz right?

That wasn't a shot at Welker. I was correcting NJX because he tried to say that Welker beats Revis and use that as an argument in Welker's favor when it is completely false.

hockey619
05-15-2012, 10:33 AM
Weren't you supposed to crawl back in your hole after your idiotic predictions fell flat on their ass last year JBX?

no he wasnt wrong remember? the giants go lucky all the way to through the super bowl and only one because kevin kolb got hurt. hes gunna take over the nfl this year, maybe the nba too as he is just too much awesome to contain in one league.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-15-2012, 02:31 PM
no he wasnt wrong remember? the giants go lucky all the way to through the super bowl and only one because kevin kolb got hurt. hes gunna take over the nfl this year, maybe the nba too as he is just too much awesome to contain in one league.

Wait… Do people think that I'm whateverhisnamewas because I said the Giants were lucky in my mock draft? I guess people don't realize how pervasive that idea is amongst Eagles fans. I just asked on twitter (I've got 800+ followers #humblebrag) and eight of the ten answers I've gotten so far have been "Yes".

I think people like you who pretend the Giants weren't lucky are the crazy ones. They came up clutch as hell late in the year against the Jets and Cowboys and they played their asses off against the Packers, Falcons and Patriots. But they were lucky to make the playoffs and they were lucky to beat the 49ers.

They got lucky. But I don't see why this is such a huge freakin deal, I'd like the Eagles to get lucky one of these years. Hell, I'd like to be lucky every single year.


They're the only team to ever win the superbowl with a negative point differential.

The Victor Cruz fumble/non-fumble in the Arizona game is a big example of luck. If the refs correctly call that as a fumble the Giants don't even make the playoffs, the Eagles do.

They fumbled 3 times in the superbowl and recovered them all.

Kyle Williams. That is all.

Ahmad Bradshaw's "forward progress" agains the 49ers.

Brandon Marshall pass interference on a crucial third down.


And that's only the lucky stuff I can recall. Anyone who denies it is crazy pants. The Giants were lucky but it's not like I'm not giving them any credit.

bigbluedefense
05-15-2012, 02:39 PM
That's right Eagle fans. Keep crying. Your pain sustains me.

Santonio10
05-15-2012, 02:46 PM
I don't think Dez is a slot WR. IMO he needs to be split out wide and should be put in as many one on one situation's as possible. He's a completely different type of receiver than Welker.

scar988
05-15-2012, 04:13 PM
only disagreement I have is at QB... I don't think Big Ben is that good... I'd have Rivers or even Stafford ahead of him.

WCH
05-15-2012, 04:53 PM
That's right Eagle fans. Keep crying. Your pain sustains me.

Yeah, pretty much this. The Giants are a very legit team, and they were the one team that I really didn't want the Packers to see in playoffs. I think they'll win 12 or 13 games this season.

gpngc
05-15-2012, 10:29 PM
yeah, i mean, just think what would happen if welker had to line up opposite revis twice a year, and beat him. :njx:

On the outside, running comebacks, 9s, deep crosses, 8s, WC outside the hash slants, sluggos, and PoCos? He'd struggle mightily. Dez wouldn't (and didn't).

Welker's probably the best slot receiver in the game. But I don't value that skillset as much as guys who can win outside (many of which on my list can ALSO play the slot effectively at times.

Welker at SE or FL would be below average at best.

gpngc
05-15-2012, 10:38 PM
Don't forget Dez Bryant and Percy Harvin were both first rounders and Wes Welker wasn't drafted. I don't even need to watch games to know who's better!!!

In all seriousness, I don't understand people who just say that Welker's role can be taken by any smart, quick WR. Why aren't more of them producing like Welker does then?

People said once Randy Moss left and the Pats stopped being able to strecth the field that Welker's production would drop but he had his best year last year with literally no one of note playing outside the hashes who could go vertical.

There still seems to be a real stigma attached to "slot" WRs.

Saying Welker isn't as good as others because he can't play out wide is like saying that Ryan Clady is a better offensive lineman than Carl Nicks because Nicks can't play LT. They are two different positions and require two different skill sets

Because they don't play in that offense (that sometimes uses Welker/Hernandez as their running game) with Tom freaking Brady at QB. Troy Brown put up similar numbers (moving around more than Welker, yes, but primarily inside complementing Givens, Patten, Branch, Wiggins, Watson, etc.)

Closest comparison would be Darren Sproles who has a comparable QB with Brees. Sproles is a quick, smart receiver (he just does it out of the backfield mostly).

And again, Julian freaking Edleman did what Welker did when he occupied that role.

Also, Amendola caught 85 passes with a not-Tom-Brady-rookie QB, **** OL, and nothing close to a Moss/Gronk threat.

And this year, Rob Gronkowski was the Moss factor. He got vertical up the seam and ran deep flags all the time (Blackburn pick).

Welker's Wayne Chrebet in an ideal situation.

Giantsfan1080
05-16-2012, 07:43 AM
Edelman has 1 game with over 100 yards receiving why do you keep saying he duplicated Welker's numbers?

AntoinCD
05-16-2012, 10:13 AM
And this year, Rob Gronkowski was the Moss factor. He got vertical up the seam and ran deep flags all the time (Blackburn pick).



Gronk wasn't close to what Moss could do in terms of stretching defenses.

I get that Gronk drew attention and went deep at times, but Moss forced defenses to stretch both in terms of going deep but also defending outside the hashes. Thus he removed the option of teams clogging the middle of the field.

On the specified play above, it was Gronk against Chase Blackburn, ie one defender. Moss in 2007 for example drew at the very least 2 defenders on the vast, vast majority of plays.

Take the Pats against the Jets last year as an example. They played single coverage all game on the outside with Cromartie and Wilson against Branch and Ochocinco. Revis lined up on Welker and they had 5 players in the middle of the field to try and slow down Welker and the TEs. For people who say that all Welker does is run option routes and exploit mismatches, closing off the field between the hashes SHOULD reduce his effectiveness. However as I mention last year he had his best year.

scottyboy
05-16-2012, 10:18 AM
JCBX's tears AND Chase Blackburn mention?

I love this thread

Jvig43
05-16-2012, 10:50 AM
I'm relatively certain whatever site JCBX is using for those numbers are wrong. Welker had like a 50 yard TD against Revis last year on blown coverage.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-16-2012, 11:11 AM
I'm not ******* JBwhatever. Swear to ******* god. Stop calling me that. Like I said yesterday, do whatever the hell you want to prove it, I'm not him. Not. *******. Him. Now stop calling me that.

tjsunstein
05-16-2012, 11:13 AM
I'm not ******* JBwhatever. Swear to ******* god. Stop calling me that. Like I said yesterday, do whatever the hell you want to prove it, I'm not him. Not. *******. Him. Now stop calling me that.

You tell them, JCBX.

Jvig43
05-16-2012, 11:13 AM
yioJTLumWlc

Right on 1:48, and I guess it wasn't a TD but it was a huge play meaning those numbers you gave were way off JCBX.

AntoinCD
05-16-2012, 11:14 AM
I'm not ******* JBwhatever. Swear to ******* god. Stop calling me that. Like I said yesterday, do whatever the hell you want to prove it, I'm not him. Not. *******. Him. Now stop calling me that.

Whoa calm down JCBX no need for all the ************ and stuff

Bixby (Thumper)
05-16-2012, 11:24 AM
yioJTLumWlc

Right on 1:48, and I guess it wasn't a TD but it was a huge play meaning those numbers you gave were way off JCBX.

Knowing PFF they probably wrongly attributed that to a safety. Oh well.


And **** you guys.

Giantsfan1080
05-16-2012, 11:33 AM
PFF is wrong most of the time. Hard to put a lot of stock into that site.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-16-2012, 11:43 AM
PFF is wrong most of the time. Hard to put a lot of stock into that site.

You're preaching to the choir (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2986273&#post2986273). But still, he beat Revis once on blown coverage. It's not like NJX tried to portray it at all.

ElectricEye
05-16-2012, 12:40 PM
OK, I usually try to stay away from this stuff. I really don't find it as fun or interesting as some do...but yeah, I'm here to chime in for a second because of how ridiculous the "Julian Edelman can replace Wes Welker" nonsense is. Welker is overrated and part of his production is a function of the offensive system and Tom Brady. I have zero issue agreeing with that. But saying Edelman did the same thing/is capable of doing the same thing? Horsecrap. Edelman is on the roster bubble as a receiver right now. The only reason he's still with the team is because of his ability to catch punts, play special teams, and pitch in as a defensive back. He came in and made some catches a few years ago when he had literally no one covering him and zero expectations, but he didn't play anywhere near the level Welker has consistently played at during his tenure as a Patriot. He's also done absolutely nothing significant as a receiver since, in spite of having opportunities. Given a choice between an outside receiver and a slot guy, I'm obviously taking the outside receiver...but Welker isn't purely a plug and play player. Heck, he isn't even a pure slot receiver anymore. That's where his game plays best, but we've needed him to do things on the outside the past few years and he's answered the call admirably.

So top five receiver? Probably not....but if it's that easy to manufacture production from the slot, why isn't everyone else finding and doing it? Antoin makes an excellent point about dictating coverage that I would like to highlight as well. We regularly see teams attempt to clog the passing lanes to prevent players(with Welker often leading the charge) from doing damage in the middle of the field.

gpngc
05-16-2012, 01:18 PM
OK, I usually try to stay away from this stuff. I really don't find it as fun or interesting as some do...but yeah, I'm here to chime in for a second because of how ridiculous the "Julian Edelman can replace Wes Welker" nonsense is. Welker is overrated and part of his production is a function of the offensive system and Tom Brady. I have zero issue agreeing with that. But saying Edelman did the same thing/is capable of doing the same thing? Horsecrap. Edelman is on the roster bubble as a receiver right now. The only reason he's still with the team is because of his ability to catch punts, play special teams, and pitch in as a defensive back. He came in and made some catches a few years ago when he had literally no one covering him and zero expectations, but he didn't play anywhere near the level Welker has consistently played at during his tenure as a Patriot. He's also done absolutely nothing significant as a receiver since, in spite of having opportunities. Given a choice between an outside receiver and a slot guy, I'm obviously taking the outside receiver...but Welker isn't purely a plug and play player. Heck, he isn't even a pure slot receiver anymore. That's where his game plays best, but we've needed him to do things on the outside the past few years and he's answered the call admirably.

So top five receiver? Probably not....but if it's that easy to manufacture production from the slot, why isn't everyone else finding and doing it? Antoin makes an excellent point about dictating coverage that I would like to highlight as well. We regularly see teams attempt to clog the passing lanes to prevent players(with Welker often leading the charge) from doing damage in the middle of the field.

Welker is obviously the BEST at it. But Sproles, Amendola, Edlemen, and Troy Brown before him have all done it well, just not AS well.

And I value a guy who can play inside and out OR a guy who can just play SE/FL a lot more.

There is not a GM in the league who would trade Dez Bryant for Wes Welker. Not one.

It is comparing red apples to green apples, so stacking him in a list is tough, but looking at his production and comparing it to Dez's is ridiculous for a bunch of reasons including his role in that scheme, how he substitutes for a running game, the high-percentage/low-reward catches he makes, and QB who has mastered the usage of that player.

No one here is putting Darren Sproles in the middle of their best WR lists when schematically the things he does are very similar (and he's got one of the few that compare to Brady throwing it to him). Sproles caught 86 for 710 and 7 TDs and added 86 carries for 600 and 2 more TDs. That's pretty much EXACTLY what Welker did last year in a career year production-wise. He does the same stuff out of the backfield/in the slot that Welker does exclusively in the slot. And he gets carries. On plays that he gets carries, Welker just gets more catches because the Pats depend on him more than Brees depends on JUST Welker because Graham can do shallow routes and Brees has decent WRs that need the ball while Pats have a very obvious and deliberate RB running-game, ONE primary option, and Hernandez and Welker underneath, with just a few plays with WRs as the primary.

gpngc
05-16-2012, 01:23 PM
Gronk wasn't close to what Moss could do in terms of stretching defenses.

I get that Gronk drew attention and went deep at times, but Moss forced defenses to stretch both in terms of going deep but also defending outside the hashes. Thus he removed the option of teams clogging the middle of the field.

On the specified play above, it was Gronk against Chase Blackburn, ie one defender. Moss in 2007 for example drew at the very least 2 defenders on the vast, vast majority of plays.

Take the Pats against the Jets last year as an example. They played single coverage all game on the outside with Cromartie and Wilson against Branch and Ochocinco. Revis lined up on Welker and they had 5 players in the middle of the field to try and slow down Welker and the TEs. For people who say that all Welker does is run option routes and exploit mismatches, closing off the field between the hashes SHOULD reduce his effectiveness. However as I mention last year he had his best year.

Yes he is. In fact, what he does is even better for Welker because he affects the safeties so much more because he can run verticals right at them OR cross their faces. Moss could only run 9s and comebacks outside the hashes. That helped, but in terms of opening up the middle, Gronk's impact is better than Moss' was. With Moss you just had to play 2-deep and use two guys - he's either running a DEEP skinny post or a 9. With Gronk he could run anything, including sit in front of a backpedaling safety or cross his face. That affects the Linebackers. Moss never affected LBs.

gpngc
05-16-2012, 01:31 PM
2009 Edleman without Welker
W17: 10 catches for 103 yards
Playoffs: 6 catches for 44 yards and 2 tds
In 2010 they put in the backups against Miami and Edleman went for 3 catches and 70 yards.

Those were the only three games that Edleman occupied Welkers role.

2010 as the No. 1 option (Gronk's rookie year, Moss left): Wes Welker 9.9 ypc. 9.9. 9.9 yards per CATCH.

AntoinCD
05-16-2012, 01:38 PM
Yes he is. In fact, what he does is even better for Welker because he affects the safeties so much more because he can run verticals right at them OR cross their faces. Moss could only run 9s and comebacks outside the hashes. That helped, but in terms of opening up the middle, Gronk's impact is better than Moss' was. With Moss you just had to play 2-deep and use two guys - he's either running a DEEP skinny post or a 9. With Gronk he could run anything, including sit in front of a backpedaling safety or cross his face. That affects the Linebackers. Moss never affected LBs.

I understand that Gronk affects coverage in the middle of the field but by simply being there it gives Welker less room to operate. Instead of having teams constantly in nickle or dime packages with at least a CB and a safety on Moss teams can now play more guys in the middle of the field.

In terms of having Welker operate, he is at his best when he can get either in front of LBs on short routes and beat them after the catch or by sitting in between LBs and Safeties on more intermediate routes. The fact that the Pats can do virtually nothing to affect the safeties except run either Gronk or Hernandez down the middle of the field allowed the those safeties to creep closer to the line.

Having Moss forced teams to play safeties 25+ yards deep consistently. There were so many times last year when teams, like the Jets, cheated up to the line of scrimmage because the threat of going deep wasn't there. By being up an extra 5 or 10 yards closed off a big area of the field that Welker operates in.

Don't get me wrong I love Gronk and he is the best TE in the game and had a season for the ages, but no one in NFL history affected coverages quite like Randy Moss

gpngc
05-16-2012, 01:49 PM
And this argument will easily be ridiculed because 'OMG ITS 1 PLAY OMG OMG OMG but I don't care.' Wes Welker had a chance to win the Super Bowl this year but couldn't make the catch.

The guys I rank above him, I envision them making that grab. Same with the infamous 4th-and-2 against Indy when he just couldn't get those extra 3 inches.

Just two relevant observations. Throw them out. Yell about them. Then criticize all the QBs when they don't make big-time "clutch" throws.

ElectricEye
05-16-2012, 01:54 PM
2009 Edleman without Welker
W17: 10 catches for 103 yards
Playoffs: 6 catches for 44 yards and 2 tds
In 2010 they put in the backups against Miami and Edleman went for 3 catches and 70 yards.

Those were the only three games that Edleman occupied Welkers role.

2010 as the No. 1 option (Gronk's rookie year, Moss left): Wes Welker 9.9 ypc. 9.9. 9.9 yards per CATCH.

I'll address the first part of your argument first. Welker had torn two knee ligaments in the final game of the season prior. It was impressive he was even able to play at the start of the year. As you mentioned, the offense was also in flux at the start of the year. Welker was hardly the only one slumping. After the Cleveland game and some more space from the injury, he was a ton more productive. The monthly splits are really telling.

September:
18 147 8.2 27 3

October:
22 172 7.8 21 0

November:
25 273 10.9 26 3

December:
21 256 12.2 35 1

As far as Edleman goes, the "Welker's role" thing you're pushing is mostly semantics. One of the main issues with our offense over the years has been that our receivers mostly do the same type of things. Deion Branch has a little bit more of an outside role(although not presence) than the rest of the guys we have/had, but he's mostly doing the same things. When Edelman is in with Welker, he's still being asked to run similar routes. He just isn't effective....with less attention too. He's come in and had some decent games(coincidentally, ones where we're forced to throw the ball to him, more so than the role), but these are few and far between and we're FAR worse off as an offense.


And this argument will easily be ridiculed because 'OMG ITS 1 PLAY OMG OMG OMG but I don't care.' Wes Welker had a chance to win the Super Bowl this year but couldn't make the catch.

The guys I rank above him, I envision them making that grab. Same with the infamous 4th-and-2 against Indy when he just couldn't get those extra 3 inches.

Just two relevant observations. Throw them out. Yell about them. Then criticize all the QBs when they don't make big-time "clutch" throws.

...I actually think this is completely fair. That play thoroughly exposed what Welker doesn't do well and limits him. That doesn't make him a disposable player, however.

gpngc
05-16-2012, 01:56 PM
I'll address the first part of your argument first. Welker had torn two knee ligaments in the final game of the season prior. It was impressive he was even able to play at the start of the year. As you mentioned, the offense was also in flux at the start of the year. Welker was hardly the only one slumping. After the Cleveland game and some more space from the injury, he was a ton more productive. The monthly splits are really telling.

September:
18 147 8.2 27 3

October:
22 172 7.8 21 0

November:
25 273 10.9 26 3

December:
21 256 12.2 35 1

As far as Edleman goes, the "Welker's role" thing you're pushing is mostly semantics. One of the main issues with our offense over the years has been that our receivers mostly do the same type of things. Deion Branch has a little bit more of an outside role(although not presence) than the rest of the guys we have/had, but he's mostly doing the same things. When Edelman is in with Welker, he's still being asked to run similar routes. He just isn't effective....with less attention too. He's come in and had some decent games(coincidentally, ones where we're forced to throw the ball to him, more so than the role), but these are few and far between and we're FAR worse off as an offense.




...I actually think this is completely fair. That play thoroughly exposed what Welker doesn't do well and limits him. That doesn't make him a disposable player, however.

I RANKED HIM AS THE 20-something best WR in the ENTIRE NFL out of OVER 1600!!!! NEVER CAME CLOSE TO DISPOSABLE. lol.

I did those rankings fairly quickly and the only argument I'd admit I was wrong with is Maclin. MAYBE VJax.

gpngc
05-16-2012, 02:02 PM
I'd be interested to hear specifically who should NOT be ranked ahead of Welker on my list.

The way I do it is "if I could have any receiver, who would it be?" Then go down the line. "Who would I rather have, _____ or ______?" That's how I do "better." In a vacuum. Forgetting scheme, who else you have, etc. If I had Tom Brady as my QB and we were running the Pats exact offense, I'd probably pick Welker much higher to play the slot. But with unknowns in terms of scheme and teammates, as if I'm drafting to an expansion team, these are my rankings...

WR
01. Calvin Johnson
02. Larry Fitzgerald
03. Andre Johnson
04. Greg Jennings
05. Steve Smith
06. Hakeem Nicks
07. Mike Wallace
08. Brandon Marshall
09. A.J. Green
10. Dwayne Bowe
11. Julio Jones
12. Jordy Nelson
13. Percy Harvin
14. Roddy White
15. Reggie Wayne
16. DeSean Jackson
17. Kenny Britt
18. Marques Colston
19. Santonio Holmes
20. Dez Bryant
21. Vincent Jackson
22. Jeremy Maclin
23. Wes Welker
24. Victor Cruz
25. Antonio Brown
26. Steve Johnson
27. Miles Austin
28. Sidney Rice
29. Brandon Lloyd
30. Laurent Robinson
31. Eric Decker
32. Nate Washington
33. Demariyus Thomas
34. Pierre Garcon
35. Denarius Moore
36. Anquan Boldin
37. Michael Crabtree
38. Darrius Heyward-Bey
39. Torrey Smith
40. Mike Williams TB
41. Robert Meachem

Jvig43
05-16-2012, 02:33 PM
Theres alot of players I would him up for if were going for top five as of this very moment. Green and Jones I wouldnt put over him after one year, Wayne is certainly not better than him at this point, Nelson had a very nice year last year but I wouldnt rank him above Welker, I'd also take him over Dez, and especially Maclin. This is coming from someone who wants Welker traded very badly and completely agrees with you on the SB drop thing, I don't think that argument is ridiculous at all.

RCAChainGang
05-16-2012, 02:44 PM
And this argument will easily be ridiculed because 'OMG ITS 1 PLAY OMG OMG OMG but I don't care.' Wes Welker had a chance to win the Super Bowl this year but couldn't make the catch.

The guys I rank above him, I envision them making that grab. Same with the infamous 4th-and-2 against Indy when he just couldn't get those extra 3 inches.

Just two relevant observations. Throw them out. Yell about them. Then criticize all the QBs when they don't make big-time "clutch" throws.

I believe that was Kevin Faulk.

AntoinCD
05-16-2012, 02:46 PM
And this argument will easily be ridiculed because 'OMG ITS 1 PLAY OMG OMG OMG but I don't care.' Wes Welker had a chance to win the Super Bowl this year but couldn't make the catch.

The guys I rank above him, I envision them making that grab. Same with the infamous 4th-and-2 against Indy when he just couldn't get those extra 3 inches.

Just two relevant observations. Throw them out. Yell about them. Then criticize all the QBs when they don't make big-time "clutch" throws.

I agree with the first part and it is a real limitation of his game. He won't make spectacular grabs and has dropped too many passes in recent years. The pass from Brady was not great but is certainly one which you expect your WR to make and in essence cost the Pats the Superbowl.

The 4th and 2 play was actually Kevin Faulk though.

I'd be interested to hear specifically who should NOT be ranked ahead of Welker on my list.

The way I do it is "if I could have any receiver, who would it be?" Then go down the line. "Who would I rather have, _____ or ______?" That's how I do "better." In a vacuum. Forgetting scheme, who else you have, etc. If I had Tom Brady as my QB and we were running the Pats exact offense, I'd probably pick Welker much higher to play the slot. But with unknowns in terms of scheme and teammates, as if I'm drafting to an expansion team, these are my rankings...

WR
01. Calvin Johnson
02. Larry Fitzgerald
03. Andre Johnson
04. Greg Jennings
05. Steve Smith
06. Hakeem Nicks
07. Mike Wallace
08. Brandon Marshall
09. A.J. Green
10. Dwayne Bowe
11. Julio Jones
12. Jordy Nelson
13. Percy Harvin
14. Roddy White
15. Reggie Wayne
16. DeSean Jackson
17. Kenny Britt
18. Marques Colston
19. Santonio Holmes
20. Dez Bryant
21. Vincent Jackson
22. Jeremy Maclin
23. Wes Welker
24. Victor Cruz
25. Antonio Brown
26. Steve Johnson
27. Miles Austin
28. Sidney Rice
29. Brandon Lloyd
30. Laurent Robinson
31. Eric Decker
32. Nate Washington
33. Demariyus Thomas
34. Pierre Garcon
35. Denarius Moore
36. Anquan Boldin
37. Michael Crabtree
38. Darrius Heyward-Bey
39. Torrey Smith
40. Mike Williams TB
41. Robert Meachem

The guys in bold are the ones who I wouldn't put above Welker at this point. AJ Green and Jones will almost certainly be above him on everyone's list in a year or two but I think it is a little premature.

Once again though, and I don't want to beat this horse to death, but the question is who would you take, not who is better. Guys who can play outside the hashes and stretch defenses horizonatally and vertically are harder to come by and have more worth. Not to downplay the importance of a top slot WR, especially in today's NFL, but outside WRs open things up more for different aspects of the offense. But this is a similar thing to listing all the top offensive linemen and saying who would you take. You are almost always going to take the guy who can play LT first and foremost over interior guys or RTs. However a dominant OG is a better player than an above average LT.

gpngc
05-16-2012, 04:39 PM
Y'all would rather have WES WELKER than A.J. GREEN????????????? Wow.

scottyboy
05-16-2012, 04:52 PM
dez hasn't done anything in the NFL to have him over welker. at all. HIs size, speed and potential are swell, but let's see him actually put it together.

ElectricEye
05-16-2012, 05:02 PM
I RANKED HIM AS THE 20-something best WR in the ENTIRE NFL out of OVER 1600!!!! NEVER CAME CLOSE TO DISPOSABLE. lol.

I did those rankings fairly quickly and the only argument I'd admit I was wrong with is Maclin. MAYBE VJax.

Edelman is a disposable player. You suggested that he could replace a ton of Welker's production. The two seem to tie in. As far as specific guys you have ranked over him, I'm not really interested in that kind of stuff. I find that kind of thing to be masturbatory, for the most part. Specifically, I will say that ranking Holmes, a player who also gets a lot of production from the slot, over Welker is more than a little ridiculous. Welker has had years that were better than Holmes' consistently. You can levy similar arguments you've been making against Welker at him too. Holmes best year also came when he had the benefit of playing with Mike Wallace to clear things out deep, Heath Millers best season, and Hines Ward still being a viable guy to at least get looks. Ranking him above Victor Cruz is even more hilarious. That's the guy I would probably peg as the best slot receiver in the league right now. As pure receivers, Harvin and Maclin do far less than Welker and Cruz too.

Again, no problem saying Welker is overrated, I'm just trying to be realistic. Given the choice between a great slot receiver and an above average outside receiver who can stretch the field, I'll take the latter. Still, Welker has an immense amount of value and is a dominant player at times, even if he is the beneficiary of a great situation. Numbers can lie sometimes, but Welker is one of just five players to produce a season in excess of 1500 yards in the past five years, even with the more passing oriented league.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-16-2012, 05:20 PM
I don't understand why people are so quick to defend Welker and act like he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Yes, Wes Welker is a fantastic route runner who puts on a route running clinic every time he steps on the field. Yes, Wes Welker is tough to cover because he's so quick. He's great within his role, nobody denies that. Nobody.

But, he's played with Randy Moss and Rob Gronkowski both of whom put up the most dominating seasons ever for a WR and a TE while playing with Welker. Welker is catching passes from Tom Brady. He plays in an incredible situation that suits him perfectly.

Answer me this: Would Welker be as effective in any other situation in the NFL? You can choose between 31 other teams and find me one where Wes Welker would equally as effective. Green Bay and New Orleans are the only teams that I would think Welker would be nearly as productive on.

But put Greg Jennings in Wes Welker's role in New England. Is anyone here prepared to argue Greg Jennings wouldn't be more effective and more dangerous than Wes Welker?

Put Marques Colston in Welker's role. Put Danny Amendola in Welker's role. Put Bess, healthy Steve Smith, Eric Decker or Victor Cruz in Welker's role.

And what if you placed guys like AJ Green, Julio Jones, Jeremy Maclin, DeSean Jackson, Kenny Britt and Percy Harvin on the Patriots? They'd put up all-pro numbers, guaranteed.

Would I trade DeSean Jackson or Jeremy Maclin for Wes Welker? No.
Would Viking fans trade Percy Harvin for Wes Welker?
Would Cowboys fans trade Dez Bryant for Wes Welker?

Good player. Great situation.

Jvig43
05-16-2012, 06:30 PM
Y'all would rather have WES WELKER than A.J. GREEN????????????? Wow.

I don't think you understand the thread.

Brodeur
05-16-2012, 06:32 PM
Dez Bryant is the most overrated man alive.

Giantsfan1080
05-16-2012, 06:42 PM
Dez Bryant is the most overrated man alive.

D-Unit had him pegged as the best WR in the NFC East about 8 games into his rookie year.

WCH
05-16-2012, 07:24 PM
[homer post] Greg Jennings absolutely has the route running skills and agility to outperform Wes Welker in that role. [/home post]

Also, pretty much everybody on this board seems to either overrate Dez Bryant, or underrate him (IMO). There doesn't seem to be much middle-ground.

gpngc
05-17-2012, 04:50 PM
I don't think you understand the thread.

Just making sure.

A.J. Green's been one of, if not the, best receiver at every level of football he's ever played. As the No. 1 option with an unreliable No. 2 and a relatively weak-armed rookie QB, he continued his dominance at the NFL level. With no offseason.

I find it extremely surprising that anyone who has seen both players play receiver (albiet at different positions) choose Welker over Green.

gpngc
05-17-2012, 05:00 PM
Edelman is a disposable player. You suggested that he could replace a ton of Welker's production. The two seem to tie in. As far as specific guys you have ranked over him, I'm not really interested in that kind of stuff. I find that kind of thing to be masturbatory, for the most part. Specifically, I will say that ranking Holmes, a player who also gets a lot of production from the slot, over Welker is more than a little ridiculous. Welker has had years that were better than Holmes' consistently. You can levy similar arguments you've been making against Welker at him too. Holmes best year also came when he had the benefit of playing with Mike Wallace to clear things out deep, Heath Millers best season, and Hines Ward still being a viable guy to at least get looks. Ranking him above Victor Cruz is even more hilarious. That's the guy I would probably peg as the best slot receiver in the league right now. As pure receivers, Harvin and Maclin do far less than Welker and Cruz too.

Again, no problem saying Welker is overrated, I'm just trying to be realistic. Given the choice between a great slot receiver and an above average outside receiver who can stretch the field, I'll take the latter. Still, Welker has an immense amount of value and is a dominant player at times, even if he is the beneficiary of a great situation. Numbers can lie sometimes, but Welker is one of just five players to produce a season in excess of 1500 yards in the past five years, even with the more passing oriented league.

First bold: I think I proved it with a 2.5 game sample size. You can deem that acceptable by extrapolation or not. But let me explain: I don't think Wes Welker, who I value as about the 23rd best WR in the entire NFL, is disposable. I do, however, believe there are MANY players capable of making a similar impact in that offense with Brady. There are MANY guys who could help that offense achieve near what it does with Welker, although those players likely would not play the role he's mastered as WELL as he does.

Second bold: Agree. But then where does he rank on your list?

Italics: That's exactly where he ranks, behind outside guys who can stretch the field +. It's not like I have Boldin above him.

Bert Macklin
05-17-2012, 05:03 PM
Peyton hasn't retired.

BigBanger
05-18-2012, 04:16 PM
I don't see what's so special about him. He gets a ton of targets and he takes advantage. He runs great routes and he's crafty but other than that, what's great? He's not a dynamic player and he plays inside a bunch where he takes advantage of nickelbacks, linebackers and safeties.
He's productive. As productive as the elite WRs in the game. That makes him borderline great. 2nd in the NFL in receiving yards, most catches (by 22) and 9 TDs last year puts him in the discussion for Top 5 WRs in the NFL.


Honestly, I think that guys like Jason Avant, Danny Amendola and Lance Moore could match Welker's production if they were given 150+ targets a season. And I think guys like Miles Austin, Percy Harvin, Marques Colston, Greg Jennings, etc. etc. would be better if they played as many snaps in the slot and were given 150+ targets a year.
This is like when you're on a road trip and someone says, "I know a good shortcut that we can take." No, we're not taking the shortcut. If it was a good shortcut then it would be called "the way," and everybody would be using it.

Those guys don't do what Welker does. If they could, then they would. It's really that simple. Welker shits on Amendola, Moore and Avant. He shits on those guys. To even bring them up is a waste of time.

I don't think Welkers a bum or anything, I think he's a good player in a great situation. And I don't think he's a primary target. His worst season came in Gronk and Hernandez's rookie year when Randy Moss left. And then he picked right back up in 2011 once Gronkowski became an absolute force that demanded attention. Without Randy Moss or a non-rookie Rob Gronkowski, his production dropped.
His worst season might have had something to do with coming back from a pretty bad knee injury that might sideline some players for at least half of that season (If not the entire season). Maybe that had something to do with it, but when he wasn't even expected to play that season… I find it hard to be overly critical of him. And if you watched him that year he wasn't nearly as quick during the first half of the season. He looked like he came back too soon. But he played through it and risked his career / more serious injury.

I would say there are two negatives going against Welker. His lack of TDs and his minimal impact in the playoffs. Those are the arguments against Welker. Anything about his size or his ability to play outside the numbers is meaningless. Thinking that some other player would be better than Welker if they were in his position, or if they had as many targets, that's stupid and a complete waste of time. (1) Lack of TDs and (2) a non factor in the playoffs. Those are his negatives. Whether he gains his yards in the slot or outside the numbers… who cares? He’s getting the catches and the yards.

Julian Edleman stepped in for Welker and filled his role just fine. Darren Sproles' role with NO wasn't really much different than Welker's. Option routes, outs and angle routes.
If you mean less than 400 yards receiving in his rookie year, then yeah, he really filled Welker's shoes. Filled 'em right up. You keep talking about a guy that has had two games -- two ******* games -- that were even close to impressive for some kid who grew in the same bum-**** town as you did when you were a kid, and he made it to the NFL. He had 4 catches for 34 yards last year. 4 for 34!!!! He has 1 career TD. Please, for the love of God, stop bringing up Edleman and thinking he's making your case. Edlemen has done nothing. In his entire career, he has done nothing.

Jvig43
05-18-2012, 04:38 PM
Just making sure.

A.J. Green's been one of, if not the, best receiver at every level of football he's ever played. As the No. 1 option with an unreliable No. 2 and a relatively weak-armed rookie QB, he continued his dominance at the NFL level. With no offseason.

I find it extremely surprising that anyone who has seen both players play receiver (albiet at different positions) choose Welker over Green.

This post only strengthens my belief that you do not understand the thread. Were doing a top 5 as of right now, and as of right now Welker is clearly going to be ranked higher than a one year WR in the NFL. Were voting for top five as of now.

Matthew Jones
05-22-2012, 05:13 PM
Loosely ranked:

Quarterback:

1. Tom Brady
2. Drew Brees
3. Peyton Manning
4. Aaron Rodgers
5. Eli Manning

Running Back:

1. Adrian Peterson
2. Ray Rice
3. Maurice Jones-Drew
4. Fred Jackson
5. Matt Forte

Wide Receiver:

1. Larry Fitzgerald
2. Calvin Johnson
3. Andre Johnson
4. Vincent Jackson
5. Dwayne Bowe

Tight End:

1. Rob Gronkowski
2. Jimmy Graham
3. Aaron Hernandez
4. Antonio Gates
5. Tony Gonzalez

Offensive Tackle:

1. Joe Thomas
2. Jason Peters
3. Andrew Whitworth
4. Jake Long
5. D'Brickashaw Ferguson

Offensive Guard:

1. Carl Nicks
2. Brian Waters
3. Logan Mankins
4. Evan Mathis
5. Mike Iupati

Center:

1. Nick Mangold
2. Ryan Kalil
3. Chris Myers
4. Scott Wells
5. Jeff Saturday

Bixby (Thumper)
05-22-2012, 05:38 PM
Read it and weep Welker jock riders. (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8293c6f5/article/three-reasons-patriots-shouldnt-break-the-bank-for-wes-welker?module=HP11_content_stream)

Tom Brady will go down as one of the top two or three quarterbacks in modern history (if not ever), and his ability to raise the level of play of those around him is unparalleled. Just consider the plights of Deion Branch, David Givens, David Patten and others who have thrived in the Patriots' system before becoming afterthoughts in other offenses. Branch, in particular, is the perfect example to consider when contemplating Welker's impact against his financial considerations. During Branch's initial tour of duty with the Patriots, he won a Super Bowl MVP and emerged as a legitimate big-play threat as the team's designated go-to receiver. However, when Branch departed for greener (more lucrative) pastures and a No. 1 role in Seattle he failed to play up to expectations and looked like a rather ordinary player. Interestingly, he returned to New England in the middle of the 2010 season and instantly regained his productive ways as a starter with Brady hurling pinpoint strikes in his direction. Although some of Branch's success could be due to his return to full health, it is not a coincidence that his game routinely flourishes when Brady is at the helm.

In Welker's case, he is a far more productive player in the Patriots' system -- his impact as a slot receiver is unrivaled in the league. Last season, he converted 63.1 percent of his 122 receptions into first downs, amassing career bests with 21 catches of 20-plus yards and nine touchdowns. In a league where the passing game is built on the premise of producing touchdowns, big plays (receptions of 20-plus yards) and first downs, the presence of an effective pass catcher between the hashes is a tremendous asset.

But the case could be made that Welker has been effective due to the extraordinary talent around him. During his first three seasons in New England, Randy Moss acted as the Patriots' No. 1 receiver and every opponent entered the game intent on rolling coverage in his direction. The emphasis was on taking away the deep ball, forcing Brady to dink and dunk to Welker on underneath routes. While Welker was certainly capable of hurting the defense between the hashes, the thought of letting Moss run through the secondary on a vertical route led many defensive coordinators to live with allowing the Patriots to freely target the underneath areas of coverage.

Last season, the emergence of Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez as the NFL's top tight end tandem provided Welker with plenty of space between the hashes. Opponents would direct double-coverage toward Gronkowski or Hernandez, leaving a nickel corner isolated over Welker in the slot. With Welker given the freedom to find a vacant area over the middle of the field on an assortment of option routes, the Patriots' offense routinely boiled down to a game of pitch and catch between Brady and Welker inside the hashes.

With the system, quarterback and supporting cast creating terrific opportunities for Welker, the Patriots must view his production with proper perspective.

There is no doubt that Welker is the top slot receiver in the NFL, but that doesn't make him a legitimate No. 1 receiver.

No. 1 receivers should be able to impact the passing game at every level, with their presence on the field demanding double-coverage from the opponent. In spite of the extra attention, No. 1 receivers continue to make plays and their ability to thrive as designated anchor of the passing game fuels the offense as a whole.

In evaluating Welker, I would classify him as a role player, rather than as a legitimate No. 1 receiver. He is a middle-of-the-field specialist who excels on short crossers and option routes. His combination of quickness and precise route running is problematic for slot defenders, particularly nickelbacks who are traditionally the third-best corner on the roster.

While Welker has become ultra-productive in his role, he certainly doesn't provide the kind of game-changing impact of Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald. Prior to last year, Welker averaged only 10.5 yards per catch while producing 9.25 receptions of 20-plus yards per season during his first four years in New England (2007-10). Although that's not bad production for a possession receiver, it is not the kind of output that typically garners significant money on the open market.

Just compare his numbers to those of Calvin Johnson (16.0 yards per catch and a yearly average of 21 receptions of 20-plus yards), Andre Johnson (14.5 and 17.5) and Fitzgerald (13.9 and 17.7), and you clearly see the difference between a slot receiver and an elite No. 1 receiver.

Bucky Brooks hits the nail on the head.

Brodeur
05-22-2012, 05:56 PM
i, too, like to use random op-eds to try to prove things.

i mean, look, wes welker (http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/10/15/irvin-welker-is-bar-none-nfls-best-receiver/) is clearly the best receiver in the nfl (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ycn-10578745).

The second look didn't mention Calvin, but mentioned Roddy White and Brandon Marshall? Sure.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-22-2012, 07:00 PM
i, too, like to use random op-eds to try to prove things.

i mean, look, wes welker (http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/10/15/irvin-welker-is-bar-none-nfls-best-receiver/) is clearly the best receiver in the nfl (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ycn-10578745).

A guy from Yahoo's equivalent of Bleacher Report and Michael Irvin. Those are some great, credible sources you've got there. Totally trumps a well reasoned argument made by a former pro scout. :njx: