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BamaFalcon59
05-15-2012, 05:06 PM
Had almost 1,000 yards receiving in 15 games last season.

What?

ryno626
05-15-2012, 10:52 PM
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyhasizBiJ1roq2j0o1_500.gif

proshoota25
05-15-2012, 10:56 PM
funny thing is we all made fun of him and that selection for a while. theres a good chance DHB will have more catched, yds, and TDs than crabtree next year. WOAH :gtfo:

vidae
05-15-2012, 10:58 PM
He still has Carson Palmer throwing him the ball. I'd wait before we put DHB on any top 5 lists.

phlysac
05-15-2012, 11:35 PM
funny thing is we all made fun of him and that selection for a while. theres a good chance DHB will have more catched, yds, and TDs than crabtree next year. WOAH :gtfo:

And there's a chance he won't. With absolutely nothing opposite him, and zero training camps, Crabtree still manages to put up more productive seasons than Vernon Davis. Yet everyone seems to think Crabs is a bust. He's been very good. His problem is that he doesn't get redzone opportunities.

proshoota25
05-15-2012, 11:39 PM
And there's a chance he won't. With absolutely nothing opposite him, and zero training camps, Crabtree still manages to put up more productive seasons than Vernon Davis. Yet everyone seems to think Crabs is a bust. He's been very good. His problem is that he doesn't get redzone opportunities.

i said next year..... with randy moss, aj jenkins, vernon davis, along with RBs kendall hunter and lamichael james (good receivers out of the backfield in their own right).... you really think crabtree will put up more numbers than DHB? i dont see it..

RaiderNation
05-15-2012, 11:47 PM
DHB has been on a steady rise, he's improved every season and isn't injury prone. He and Palmer have developed a good relationship this off season working out in SoCal. Now bring in Moore, Ford, Murphy and rookie Juron Criner(who made some awesome catches today at the OTA's) and we should have a very strong group for the future.

phlysac
05-15-2012, 11:52 PM
i said next year..... with randy moss, aj jenkins, vernon davis, along with RBs kendall hunter and lamichael james (good receivers out of the backfield in their own right).... you really think crabtree will put up more numbers than DHB? i dont see it..

Who knows? But he's capable. You could substitute all of those names with Denarius Moore, Louis Murphy, Jacoby Ford, Darren McFadden, Mike Goodson, Taiwan Jones, and Juron Criner and have the same argument.

TitanHope
05-16-2012, 12:20 AM
And there's a chance he won't. With absolutely nothing opposite him, and zero training camps, Crabtree still manages to put up more productive seasons than Vernon Davis. Yet everyone seems to think Crabs is a bust. He's been very good. His problem is that he doesn't get redzone opportunities.

As impressive as a team's #1 WR outproducing their TE is...I'm not sure that's true. Y'know, using math and stuff.

I also totally buy into him being a very good WR, and the fact that the 49ers spent the offseason signing Randy Moss, Mario Manningham, and using their 1st RD pick on a WR was just insurance in case he wrecks his Huffy or something.

Maybe he'll get more redzone opportunities if he shows up to a training camp at some point in his career?

whatadai
05-16-2012, 01:18 AM
His problem is that he doesn't get redzone opportunities.

That's because he likes to drop balls, he doesn't gain separation, and he's average at best after the catch.

Heyward-Bey had all of these problems...and he's spent 3 off-seasons working on them...unlike somebody. DHB learned to ignore the criticism and work his ass off and made no excuses...someone else decided he'd like to make excuses and take off-seasons off.

With absolutely nothing opposite him,
DHB has had no one opposite of him either, and it makes me cringe to say this since Alice Smith isn't the greatest, but he's actually had worse QBs. Moore gives hope, but DHB still did a lot of damage while Moore was out. He also needed time to come back from his own injury to start clicking with Palmer. With both of them healthy and a full off-season for them and Palmer...and a healthy Run DMC...Oakland will have a pretty explosive offense for probably 3 weeks until everyone gets injured again.

phlysac
05-16-2012, 08:15 AM
As impressive as a team's #1 WR outproducing their TE is...I'm not sure that's true. Y'know, using math and stuff.
Math and stuff?

Crabtree (2011) - 72 Rec | 875 Yds | 4 TDs
V. Davis (2011) - 67 Rec | 792 Yds | 6 TDs
D.H.B. (2011) --- 64 Rec | 975 Yds | 4 TDs

Oh yes, laud DHB for production while bashing Crabtree.

This isn't a bash of DHB. I actually really liked him coming out. It's just the hypocrisy of complimenting one while criticizing the other.

I also totally buy into him being a very good WR, and the fact that the 49ers spent the offseason signing Randy Moss, Mario Manningham, and using their 1st RD pick on a WR was just insurance in case he wrecks his Huffy or something.
Or perhaps Moss (1 year deal,) Manningham (2 year deal,) and Jenkins (drafted) were added because Kyle Williams, Brett Swain, and Joe Hastings were the #3,4,5 WRs behind Crabtree and Ginn.

Maybe he'll get more redzone opportunities if he shows up to a training camp at some point in his career?
That's the hope. Perhaps his feet will stay healthy this offseason.

Heyward-Bey had all of these problems...and he's spent 3 off-seasons working on them...unlike somebody. DHB learned to ignore the criticism and work his ass off and made no excuses...someone else decided he'd like to make excuses and take off-seasons off.
I'd be happy to read a report where Crabtree was making excuses and missing training camp due to anything other than an injury. His hold-out 3 seasons ago is noted.

Monomach
05-16-2012, 09:18 AM
Had almost 1,000 yards receiving in 15 games last season.

What?
What's the "what" about?

Pretty much everyone here liked him as a prospect. Pretty much everyone here knew he was raw. Pretty much everyone here knew it would take a few years of development. Pretty much everyone figured he'd turn out to be a 1000-yard field-stretcher but not a super dominant CJ/Fitz/Andre type of receiver.

DHB is on track to do exactly what everyone thought he would do in the time frame everyone thought he'd do it in.

whatadai
05-16-2012, 02:57 PM
I'd be happy to read a report where Crabtree was making excuses and missing training camp due to anything other than an injury. His hold-out 3 seasons ago is noted.
I don't need to find a report. If you don't remember how your own WR has acted since he entered the NFL, here's a reminder...
-Last off-season when players were organizing workouts due to the lockout, and Alice Smith was trying to practice the new Harbaugh playbook with everyone, Crabtree didn't show up for a whole month. When he finally got there, he didn't put any work in because he had "sore feet" from new shoes.
-He took shots at Alice Smith, I hate Alice, but a two year WR who at the time was just as much of a bust himself, was taking shots at a veteran? And Alice has proven last year that he's more valuable to SF than Crabtree. Maybe because he decided to put in some work during the off-season? Some work would have easily improved Crabtree's ****** route running.
-His second off-season, he was being a lazy entitled bastard during workouts and Vernon Davis went off on his ass. The only reason he's actually showed up to workouts at all is because he has a clause in his contract which makes it mandatory for him to get paid. I wouldn't be surprised if he got "injured" again this off-season and is unable to do **** for most of it. Funny how he's always injured in the off-season and pre-season and then fine when it comes to the first week.

I'm not saying he doesn't have the talent to breakout. I'm saying he's a lazy bastard. We had that in JaMarcus Russell too and everyone knows how that went, so now I hate divas like Crabtree. Give me a hardworking guy like DHB any day over Crabtree. I don't see a breakout in Crabtree until he actually starts to show that he cares.

Ness
05-16-2012, 03:14 PM
I think the 49ers quarterback name is Alex Smith actually. Don't quote me on that though.

BamaFalcon59
05-16-2012, 06:34 PM
What's the "what" about?

Pretty much everyone here liked him as a prospect. Pretty much everyone here knew he was raw. Pretty much everyone here knew it would take a few years of development. Pretty much everyone figured he'd turn out to be a 1000-yard field-stretcher but not a super dominant CJ/Fitz/Andre type of receiver.

DHB is on track to do exactly what everyone thought he would do in the time frame everyone thought he'd do it in.

I recall a litany of Troy Williamson comparisons and proclimations that he would be a bust. But believe what you want.

WCH
05-16-2012, 06:50 PM
You guys are both right, IIRC. DHB has been about as good as most people expected him to be. What people didn't expect, was for Oakland to draft him where they did. THAT caused people to laugh their asses off and predict that he would bust in Oakland.

whatadai
05-16-2012, 06:56 PM
I think the 49ers quarterback name is Alex Smith actually. Don't quote me on that though.

Oh really? Alex Smith...doesn't sound right...you sure it isn't Alexis? I don't know...still pretty sure it's Alice...

Raiderz4Life
05-16-2012, 07:29 PM
Math and stuff?

Crabtree (2011) - 72 Rec | 875 Yds | 4 TDs
V. Davis (2011) - 67 Rec | 792 Yds | 6 TDs


67 Rec 792yrds 6 TDs from a TE >>>>>> 72 rec 875yds 4 TDs from a WR.

VAfy-ya
05-16-2012, 07:35 PM
I don't need to find a report. If you don't remember how your own WR has acted since he entered the NFL, here's a reminder...
-Last off-season when players were organizing workouts due to the lockout, and Alice Smith was trying to practice the new Harbaugh playbook with everyone, Crabtree didn't show up for a whole month. When he finally got there, he didn't put any work in because he had "sore feet" from new shoes.
-He took shots at Alice Smith, I hate Alice, but a two year WR who at the time was just as much of a bust himself, was taking shots at a veteran? And Alice has proven last year that he's more valuable to SF than Crabtree. Maybe because he decided to put in some work during the off-season? Some work would have easily improved Crabtree's ****** route running.
-His second off-season, he was being a lazy entitled bastard during workouts and Vernon Davis went off on his ass. The only reason he's actually showed up to workouts at all is because he has a clause in his contract which makes it mandatory for him to get paid. I wouldn't be surprised if he got "injured" again this off-season and is unable to do **** for most of it. Funny how he's always injured in the off-season and pre-season and then fine when it comes to the first week.

I'm not saying he doesn't have the talent to breakout. I'm saying he's a lazy bastard. We had that in JaMarcus Russell too and everyone knows how that went, so now I hate divas like Crabtree. Give me a hardworking guy like DHB any day over Crabtree. I don't see a breakout in Crabtree until he actually starts to show that he cares.

First, get your facts straight. Alex and bunch of other guys were working out(not going over plays, they didnt even have the playbook yet) during the lockout at SJSU. Crabs, along with 30+ other players chose to workout near their respective off-season homes. Crabs broke his foot(he told teammates his feet were sore as to not disclosed the injury) the first day of Camp Alex(a semi mini-camp Alex orgnized when they actually got a majority of the offensive players together, going over the playbook, classroom work, and running through plays on the field). And even though he couldnt participate physically, he still stayed for all the classroom stuff and film study.

Secondly, Harbaugh has gone on record that Crabtree is a guy who shows up prepared and ready to work. That no one out-works him. This perception that he's lazy is just that....perception. Forget that spat with him and VD. You know how many ppl have gotten into with VD at TC? Its a long list. It was something that was blown way out of proportion. Fact is the media paints Crabtree that way because he's a introverted guy who doesn't say much and hates talking in front of microphones. He gives the media the cold shoulder and because of it, beat writers label him anti-social or a mal-content. Divas love attention. Love the sound of their own voice. Thats not Crabs. He rather do his talking on the field. He's a loner in the ultimate team sport and that just rubs some ppl the wrong way. Doesn't make him a bad teammate nor a diva.

As far as his production, he'll never put up great numbers with Alex as his QB. Sure he has lapses in concentration and drops a few balls, but ultimately his QB, up until this point, hasnt been the greatest throwing to the outside, intermediate to deep. VD will always be the playmaker because Alex is comfortable working between the hashes, over the middle. Thats usually where VD does most of his work. But the additions of MM, Moss, and Jenkins should allow Crabs to work from the slot more and give him more opportunties in the part of the field where Alex is most comfortable.

whatadai
05-16-2012, 08:24 PM
First, get your facts straight. Alex and bunch of other guys were working out(not going over plays, they didnt even have the playbook yet) during the lockout at SJSU. Crabs, along with 30+ other players chose to workout near their respective off-season homes. Crabs broke his foot(he told teammates his feet were sore as to not disclosed the injury) the first day of Camp Alex(a semi mini-camp Alex orgnized when they actually got a majority of the offensive players together, going over the playbook, classroom work, and running through plays on the field). And even though he couldnt participate physically, he still stayed for all the classroom stuff and film study.
Read the first sentence...
http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2011/05/playbook-in-han.html
Crabtree didn't show up until early June, his teammates had been going over the new playbook and practicing since early May.

As for the rest of your post, I was only showing the problems he's caused every off-season because I was told he had none. If you want to keep making excuses for Crabtree's lack of effort, go ahead, he's not on my team so I couldn't care less. The fact is, unless he starts getting his act together he won't show his real talent and will be outperformed by DHB. Just defending DHB in this thread because picking him over Crabtree was never the big deal everyone tried to make it seem.

RaidersFan1995
05-16-2012, 08:56 PM
I like DHB and his upside more but I think Crabtree is solid and I think he is better at getting yac than people give him credit for.

Abaddon
05-16-2012, 09:57 PM
What's the "what" about?

Pretty much everyone here liked him as a prospect. Pretty much everyone here knew he was raw. Pretty much everyone here knew it would take a few years of development. Pretty much everyone figured he'd turn out to be a 1000-yard field-stretcher but not a super dominant CJ/Fitz/Andre type of receiver.

DHB is on track to do exactly what everyone thought he would do in the time frame everyone thought he'd do it in.

That last part is inaccurate. He's not a very good downfield receiver. He is, however, developing into a very good possession receiver. Most of his catches were on outs and come backs. It's really quite puzzling, but also great to see.

Ness
05-16-2012, 10:24 PM
Oh really? Alex Smith...doesn't sound right...you sure it isn't Alexis? I don't know...still pretty sure it's Alice...

Perhaps you have dyslexia?

There is a site I've heard of called NFL.com.

Rumor has it they may hold the key to the true nature of this paradigm.

Hmmm...maybe this link can help you.

Your help link (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Alex+Smith)

whatadai
05-16-2012, 10:36 PM
Perhaps you have dyslexia?

There is a site I've heard of called NFL.com.

Rumor has it they may hold the key to the true nature of this paradigm.

Eh...doesn't seem like a good source. My sources have always told me that SF had some evil queen with plucked eyebrows for a QB named Alice Smith.

However, I heard there's a new Kaep Crusader in town. The hero SF deserves, but not the one it needs right now.

Job Reborn
05-16-2012, 10:57 PM
Hey look how cool and funny i am lol i am calling another teams qb by a girlie name lol this is so witty

whatadai
05-16-2012, 11:39 PM
Hey look how cool and funny i am lol i am calling another teams qb by a girlie name lol this is so witty
Hey look how cool and funny i am lol i'm trying to make fun of someone on the internet when i don't know the fact that niner fans were the one to come up with the name first

phlysac
05-17-2012, 01:01 AM
Read the first sentence...
http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2011/05/playbook-in-han.html
Crabtree didn't show up until early June, his teammates had been going over the new playbook and practicing since early May.

The only 3 players who caught passes from Alex Smith that weekend in May were Joshua Morgan (Redskins), Ronald Johnson (Eagles), and Kevin Jurovich (Free Agent.)

This was the same weekend that players from a dozen teams all worked out together in Atlanta. Teams split practice fields, etc. It was locked out.

You're right, Crabtree was a diva for not being there learning the playbook with the 3 other guys that played a grand total of 5 games with the 49ers last season.

He was on the field for the very next organized weekend held by Alex Smith. He broke his foot on the first day.

Ness
05-17-2012, 01:08 AM
Hey look how cool and funny i am lol i am calling another teams qb by a girlie name lol this is so witty

Being witty...I hear it does wonders for your persona...on the internet.

VAfy-ya
05-17-2012, 06:40 AM
Read the first sentence...
http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2011/05/playbook-in-han.html
Crabtree didn't show up until early June, his teammates had been going over the new playbook and practicing since early May.

As for the rest of your post, I was only showing the problems he's caused every off-season because I was told he had none. If you want to keep making excuses for Crabtree's lack of effort, go ahead, he's not on my team so I couldn't care less. The fact is, unless he starts getting his act together he won't show his real talent and will be outperformed by DHB. Just defending DHB in this thread because picking him over Crabtree was never the big deal everyone tried to make it seem.

LIKE I SAID, they were running routes, working out. You cant go practice the playbook without 11 offensive players on the field. If Kevin Jurovich and Morgan were the only WRs in attendance that should tell you something. The key personel on offense were all missing. Where was VD? Where was Gore? Ginn? Walker? You act as if Crabs was the only guy not there. And when Smith did put together Camp Alex in a couple of weeks, with a majority of the offensive guys, Crabs was right there so again, I fail to see your point. No one is making excuses because there is none to be made. When its mandatory for Crabs to be somewhere and he's not, then maybe I can see your point. He has showed up to every involuntary workout this off-season, as well as previous off-seasons when he's been healthy. Again, KNOW YOU FACTS before you start spewing your opinion as gospel. And if you think the type of offense and the QB throwing you the ball doesn't impact production then you obviously dont kno as much as you think you do.

whatadai
05-18-2012, 05:19 PM
LIKE I SAID, they were running routes, working out. You cant go practice the playbook without 11 offensive players on the field.
Yes, that never works out. QBs and WRs never workout together to get a better rapport with each other.


If Kevin Jurovich and Morgan were the only WRs in attendance that should tell you something. The key personel on offense were all missing. Where was VD? Where was Gore? Ginn? Walker? You act as if Crabs was the only guy not there.
I didn't act as if Crabtree was the only guy not there. Please find the exact quote where I said that instead of putting words in my mouth. I couldn't care less if Gore and VD weren't there, I would trust veterans like those two to be able to pick up the playbook quicker. I couldn't care less if Ginn and Walker weren't there, one was already a bust and the other was a 6th round pick. If you're the 10th pick in the overall draft, held out for a huge contract, and had only two mediocre seasons after, you shouldn't be so goddamn lazy and do everything you can to be successful. Otherwise, you deserve any criticism that comes your way, especially if you end up being mediocre again like his third season. Also, Davis and Gore weren't the ones criticizing Smith. Davis actually said Smith matured, instead the guy who was as much of a bust decided to call out his QB and then not do **** about it. Crabtree is all talk.


And when Smith did put together Camp Alex in a couple of weeks, with a majority of the offensive guys, Crabs was right there so again, I fail to see your point.
He was right there...yeah I was right there practicing with all of them just as much as he was in those workouts.


No one is making excuses because there is none to be made. When its mandatory for Crabs to be somewhere and he's not, then maybe I can see your point. He has showed up to every involuntary workout this off-season, as well as previous off-seasons when he's been healthy.
Just showing up doesn't do ****...oh wait he was "injured" every time. Sorry...gotta get my facts straight.


Again, KNOW YOU FACTS before you start spewing your opinion as gospel. And if you think the type of offense and the QB throwing you the ball doesn't impact production then you obviously dont kno as much as you think you do.
Alex Smith improved...Crabtree didn't, that just tells me that the problem with Crabtree isn't Smith. And it's not like Crabtree is some burner that Alex's weak arm can't get the ball to. It's his ****** route running, his butterfingers, and lack of focus that plagued him last season. Crabtree's skill set is actually made for Harbaugh's WCO.

When did I say the type of offense and QB doesn't matter? Pretty sure that all my posts have talked about how working with your QB more will make you better and Crabtree likes to avoid working, and that is why he hasn't broken out. Seriously, are you even reading my posts or just making **** up?

BamaFalcon59
05-18-2012, 06:18 PM
Well, Crabtree probably could have learned from Morgan, considering Morgan, a sixth round pick, produced nearly on par with Crabtree when they both played.

TitanHope
05-18-2012, 11:10 PM
Math and stuff?

Crabtree (2011) - 72 Rec | 875 Yds | 4 TDs
V. Davis (2011) - 67 Rec | 792 Yds | 6 TDs
D.H.B. (2011) --- 64 Rec | 975 Yds | 4 TDs

Oh yes, laud DHB for production while bashing Crabtree.

This isn't a bash of DHB. I actually really liked him coming out. It's just the hypocrisy of complimenting one while criticizing the other.

Hey now! No, no, no, no! You said seasonS, as in more than one! Vernon Davis has outproduced Crabs the past two seasons, and the gap furthers itself when you go to three seasons since Davis's monster year was three seasons ago.

But yeah, Crabs had his best season last year and had more yards than Davis, but even so, you're comparing a team's 1st option WR to their starting TE, so it's kind of a silly comparison. You could even say Davis had the more impressive year considering the positions they play.

I think people knock Crabs for his production and praise Heyward-Bey for similar production is purely because it's hard to like Michael Crabtree. The dude dominated college, and was practically the consensus #1 WR prospect in the draft that year. DHB's rating was all over the place depending on who you asked, ranging from #1 to #6. Then the Raiders took DHB over Crabs, and people went nuts with the Al Davis/40 time jokes. Crabs fell right to the 49ers, and everyone thought it was a great pick. So we already kind of have an underdog vs favorite relationship going on.

Then Crabtree held out for forever, which probably flushed any positive perception he had down the drain. People want him to fail because of that. Suddenly, he went from a popular prospect to an entitled jerkface, and meanwhile, DHB was being quiet in Oakland.

Now that they're finally putting forth results, it's no wonder people are celebrating DHB and ignoring Crabs. Crabs was supposed to be doing this. Actually, he was supposed to be doing more. People aren't going to praise him for not living up to expectations. DHB, on the other hand, had low expectations because of his "boom or bust" perception and him being drafted by the Raiders, so for him to nearly be a 1,000-yard receiver, it hits us as being more impressive than Crabtree doing the same.

Or perhaps Moss (1 year deal,) Manningham (2 year deal,) and Jenkins (drafted) were added because Kyle Williams, Brett Swain, and Joe Hastings were the #3,4,5 WRs behind Crabtree and Ginn.

They did all that to upgrade the bench? You have to think they were brought in to upgrade the starting rotation. But for all I know, the 49ers could be wanting to implement a philosophy change and air it out more and use more 4 WR sets instead of 2 WR-2 TE sets. That's what I think the Titans are doing by drafting Kendall Wright in the 1st despite having a go-to #1 in Britt, 1,000-yd #2 WR in Washington, and a young #3 WR with potential in Damian Williams. I figured we were set, but Chris Palmer runs a lot of 3 WR-1 TE sets (Jared Cook is typically the TE, so it's basically 4 WR's since he's a jumbo WR). They're going from a run-first to a pass-first team, so they added a WR that was perfectly suited for their offense and could make the same impact that a starter would due to the scheme.

What's the "what" about?

Pretty much everyone here liked him as a prospect. Pretty much everyone here knew he was raw. Pretty much everyone here knew it would take a few years of development. Pretty much everyone figured he'd turn out to be a 1000-yard field-stretcher but not a super dominant CJ/Fitz/Andre type of receiver.

DHB is on track to do exactly what everyone thought he would do in the time frame everyone thought he'd do it in.

DHB was a popular pick for the "Which player will/is most likely to bust?" threads. And that was before he went to the Raiders... I think a lot of people were projecting him to be just a #2 caliber, deep threat WR for a team, which would label him a bust if he were selected in the 1st RD.

phlysac
05-19-2012, 12:50 AM
Hey now! No, no, no, no! You said seasonS, as in more than one! Vernon Davis has outproduced Crabs the past two seasons, and the gap furthers itself when you go to three seasons since Davis's monster year was three seasons ago.

But yeah, Crabs had his best season last year and had more yards than Davis, but even so, you're comparing a team's 1st option WR to their starting TE, so it's kind of a silly comparison. You could even say Davis had the more impressive year considering the positions they play.

I think people knock Crabs for his production and praise Heyward-Bey for similar production is purely because it's hard to like Michael Crabtree. The dude dominated college, and was practically the consensus #1 WR prospect in the draft that year. DHB's rating was all over the place depending on who you asked, ranging from #1 to #6. Then the Raiders took DHB over Crabs, and people went nuts with the Al Davis/40 time jokes. Crabs fell right to the 49ers, and everyone thought it was a great pick. So we already kind of have an underdog vs favorite relationship going on.

Then Crabtree held out for forever, which probably flushed any positive perception he had down the drain. People want him to fail because of that. Suddenly, he went from a popular prospect to an entitled jerkface, and meanwhile, DHB was being quiet in Oakland.

Now that they're finally putting forth results, it's no wonder people are celebrating DHB and ignoring Crabs. Crabs was supposed to be doing this. Actually, he was supposed to be doing more. People aren't going to praise him for not living up to expectations. DHB, on the other hand, had low expectations because of his "boom or bust" perception and him being drafted by the Raiders, so for him to nearly be a 1,000-yard receiver, it hits us as being more impressive than Crabtree doing the same.



They did all that to upgrade the bench? You have to think they were brought in to upgrade the starting rotation. But for all I know, the 49ers could be wanting to implement a philosophy change and air it out more and use more 4 WR sets instead of 2 WR-2 TE sets. That's what I think the Titans are doing by drafting Kendall Wright in the 1st despite having a go-to #1 in Britt, 1,000-yd #2 WR in Washington, and a young #3 WR with potential in Damian Williams. I figured we were set, but Chris Palmer runs a lot of 3 WR-1 TE sets (Jared Cook is typically the TE, so it's basically 4 WR's since he's a jumbo WR). They're going from a run-first to a pass-first team, so they added a WR that was perfectly suited for their offense and could make the same impact that a starter would due to the scheme.



DHB was a popular pick for the "Which player will/is most likely to bust?" threads. And that was before he went to the Raiders... I think a lot of people were projecting him to be just a #2 caliber, deep threat WR for a team, which would label him a bust if he were selected in the 1st RD.
Great post. I won't argue any of it outside of the season vs seasonS semantics that was my responsibility. The only thing I think needs a different perspective is that I don't care that Davis is a TE. He is the #1 target in the offense, period. The position has no bearing, regardless of how atypical that is.

But props for a fair and non-biased approach of both good and bad about a player argument.

NIN1984
05-19-2012, 09:08 AM
That last part is inaccurate. He's not a very good downfield receiver. He is, however, developing into a very good possession receiver. Most of his catches were on outs and come backs. It's really quite puzzling, but also great to see.

This is true. I thought we just got a guy who can run in a straight line, really fast. Last season that wasn't the case at all, he was running good routes, breaking tackles and actually catching the ball. Its very surprising but I'll take it.

NY+Giants=NYG
05-19-2012, 09:42 AM
whatadai,

I am just curious, but are you a 9ers fan or fan of another team?

VAfy-ya
05-19-2012, 10:34 AM
Yes, that never works out. QBs and WRs never workout together to get a better rapport with each other.


I didn't act as if Crabtree was the only guy not there. Please find the exact quote where I said that instead of putting words in my mouth. I couldn't care less if Gore and VD weren't there, I would trust veterans like those two to be able to pick up the playbook quicker. I couldn't care less if Ginn and Walker weren't there, one was already a bust and the other was a 6th round pick. If you're the 10th pick in the overall draft, held out for a huge contract, and had only two mediocre seasons after, you shouldn't be so goddamn lazy and do everything you can to be successful. Otherwise, you deserve any criticism that comes your way, especially if you end up being mediocre again like his third season. Also, Davis and Gore weren't the ones criticizing Smith. Davis actually said Smith matured, instead the guy who was as much of a bust decided to call out his QB and then not do **** about it. Crabtree is all talk.


He was right there...yeah I was right there practicing with all of them just as much as he was in those workouts.


Just showing up doesn't do ****...oh wait he was "injured" every time. Sorry...gotta get my facts straight.


Alex Smith improved...Crabtree didn't, that just tells me that the problem with Crabtree isn't Smith. And it's not like Crabtree is some burner that Alex's weak arm can't get the ball to. It's his ****** route running, his butterfingers, and lack of focus that plagued him last season. Crabtree's skill set is actually made for Harbaugh's WCO.

When did I say the type of offense and QB doesn't matter? Pretty sure that all my posts have talked about how working with your QB more will make you better and Crabtree likes to avoid working, and that is why he hasn't broken out. Seriously, are you even reading my posts or just making **** up?

You have a very biased opinion of Crabs and thats fine, your entitled to it. Your just sadly misguided on alot of your perceptions. I'll take the word over his head coach and his teammates over some Raiders fan on a draft forum. Anyone bitching about his route-running obviously hasnt watched enough Crabtree to form a opinion. You say he hasn't improve because your looking at numbers but your not seeing the player and the scheme in which he plays. Alex improved yes, but the philosphy is still pound the ball, ball-control. So regardless of Alex's improvements, Crabs wont get the opportunties others WRs will in more balanced offenses. But of course that's another "excuse" in your eyes. You dont think the fact Crabs was stuck primarily on the outside with guys like Brett Swain and Ginn on the other side of the field didnt affect how teams defended him and our offense as a whole? I could sit here and go on and on about how Alex's refusal to throw guys open and just lack of overall development up until this point has hampered ALL the WRs he's played with, not just Crabtree but again another excuse......I get it. There have never been any issues regarding Crabs football IQ or problems picking up any offense so to use that as a excuse why he should be in Cali, running routes and working out with a QB who wasn' t even under contract at the time and not guanranteed to return to Niners, playbook in hand or not, just reeks of someone being overly critical when there was a work stoppage going on. The fact Crabs broke his foot the first day, yet stay for the duration of Camp Alex I think speaks to his commitment at the time. I mean, what else do you expect a guy with a broken bone in his foot to do? You feel Crabtree doesn't work hard enough. I'm saying you still havent giving me proof of this beyond speculation when the coaches and teammates he works with everyday have all said the total opposite.

Unbiased
05-19-2012, 11:29 AM
Remember when DHB was a terrible pick and everyone laughed at the Raiders? And then the next year, they get praised for "finally making a good first round pick?"

Draftniks don't know ****.

bigbluedefense
05-19-2012, 06:12 PM
I must admit, boy was I wrong on DHB. So far he's doing great. And good for him, it's good to see him prove everyone wrong.

Meanwhile, Michael Crabtree sucks. I don't need to read 2 pages of paragraphs and analysis to know that. I just open my eyes and watch him play. He sucks.

whatadai
05-19-2012, 06:35 PM
You have a very biased opinion of Crabs and thats fine, your entitled to it. Your just sadly misguided on alot of your perceptions. I'll take the word over his head coach and his teammates over some Raiders fan on a draft forum. Anyone bitching about his route-running obviously hasnt watched enough Crabtree to form a opinion. You say he hasn't improve because your looking at numbers but your not seeing the player and the scheme in which he plays. Alex improved yes, but the philosphy is still pound the ball, ball-control. So regardless of Alex's improvements, Crabs wont get the opportunties others WRs will in more balanced offenses. But of course that's another "excuse" in your eyes. You dont think the fact Crabs was stuck primarily on the outside with guys like Brett Swain and Ginn on the other side of the field didnt affect how teams defended him and our offense as a whole? I could sit here and go on and on about how Alex's refusal to throw guys open and just lack of overall development up until this point has hampered ALL the WRs he's played with, not just Crabtree but again another excuse......I get it. There have never been any issues regarding Crabs football IQ or problems picking up any offense so to use that as a excuse why he should be in Cali, running routes and working out with a QB who wasn' t even under contract at the time and not guanranteed to return to Niners, playbook in hand or not, just reeks of someone being overly critical when there was a work stoppage going on. The fact Crabs broke his foot the first day, yet stay for the duration of Camp Alex I think speaks to his commitment at the time. I mean, what else do you expect a guy with a broken bone in his foot to do? You feel Crabtree doesn't work hard enough. I'm saying you still havent giving me proof of this beyond speculation when the coaches and teammates he works with everyday have all said the total opposite.

I'd take you more seriously if every reply wasn't an insult on my judgement, game viewing, etc.

Honestly, you're just a homer that can't accept the fact that your diva WR hasn't done anything notable in the NFL and barely shows any hope of ever showing anything.

I'd be the first to admit that DHB has been a bust according to his draft position, but has outperformed all expectations placed on him. However, you can't even admit that Crabtree has done nothing in the NFL cause he's lazy.

You shutdown my "misguided" opinions on why he's sucked, yet blame everyone and everything else on the Niners for his lack of production. It's the offensive scheme, lack of talented WRs across from him, Alex Smith, injuries, etc. etc. I thought Niners fans would have learned to not make constant excuses for their players' lack of production after having done so for years for Alex Smith. Seriously, the guy is just lazy, it's one tiny thing that is easily fixed. Accepting all the excuses he or anyone makes for him isn't going to help him.

Funny how his teammates and coaches say good things about him to the media and then get on his ass for his lack of effort all the time. It's like teams lie to the media...which we all know never happens...

farfromforgotten
05-19-2012, 07:15 PM
I must admit, boy was I wrong on DHB. So far he's doing great. And good for him, it's good to see him prove everyone wrong.

Meanwhile, Michael Crabtree sucks. I don't need to read 2 pages of paragraphs and analysis to know that. I just open my eyes and watch him play. He sucks.

175 catches for Crabtree compared to 99 from DHB. Yet DHB is doing great and Crabtree sucks. Gimme a break. Crabtree has been disappointing compared to what I thought he'd be, but this is laughable.

bigbluedefense
05-19-2012, 09:19 PM
175 catches for Crabtree compared to 99 from DHB. Yet DHB is doing great and Crabtree sucks. Gimme a break. Crabtree has been disappointing compared to what I thought he'd be, but this is laughable.

He's so awesome his head coach went out and grabbed 2 WRs in FA and drafted a WR in the 1st round of the draft.

He's not good. The sooner you accept this the better.

phlysac
05-19-2012, 09:31 PM
He's so awesome his head coach went out and grabbed 2 WRs in FA and drafted a WR in the 1st round of the draft.

He's not good. The sooner you accept this the better.

Ramses Barden, Victor Cruz, Jerrel Jernigan, and Reuben Randle have all been added since Hakeem Nicks was drafted. He must not be good either.

Great rationale.


1. Michael Crabtree | Michael Crabtree
2. Ted Ginn | Mario Manningham
3. Kyle Williams | Randy Moss
4. Brett Swain | A.J. Jenkins
5. Joe Hastings | Ted Ginn
6. Kevin Jurovich | Kyle Williams.


THAT is why 3 WRs were added.

The Alex
05-19-2012, 09:39 PM
Ramses Barden, Victor Cruz, Jerrel Jernigan, and Reuben Randle have all been added since Hakeem Nicks was drafted. He must not be good either.

>Comparing a first round draft pick, a future HoF and a premium contract for another receiver to an undrafted free agent and middle round picks

http://s6.tinypic.com/idym2u_th.jpg

phlysac
05-19-2012, 09:45 PM
>Comparing a first round draft pick, a future HoF and a premium contract for another receiver to an undrafted free agent and middle round picks


1. Teams don't have two "1st round" WRs?
2. You mean the "future HoF" that has 28 recs. in 2 seasons and signed a 1-year contract with zero guaranteed money?
3. You mean the "premium" contract that has less TOTAL money than what Joshua Morgan got guaranteed?

The Alex
05-19-2012, 10:02 PM
1. Teams don't have two "1st round" WRs?
2. You mean the "future HoF" that has 28 recs. in 2 seasons and signed a 1-year contract with zero guaranteed money?
3. You mean the "premium" contract that has less TOTAL money than what Joshua Morgan got guaranteed?

What I mean is that comparing the receivers the Giants have acquired since Nicks was drafted to the receivers the 49ers loaded up on this past offseason is absolute nonsense when you consider the value and money given to each.

farfromforgotten
05-19-2012, 10:16 PM
He's so awesome his head coach went out and grabbed 2 WRs in FA and drafted a WR in the 1st round of the draft.

He's not good. The sooner you accept this the better.

I didn't say he was "awesome". Then again I didn't say DHB has been "great". So I'm not sure why I'm getting involved in an argument with someone such as yourself. I responded to your first ignorant post with some logic and then you follow up with this ignorant post. At least you are consistant, if nothing else.

He is good. So I will not accept that. He will have a better career than DHB. You go ahead and accept that.

phlysac
05-19-2012, 10:22 PM
What I mean is that comparing the receivers the Giants have acquired since Nicks was drafted to the receivers the 49ers loaded up on this past offseason is absolute nonsense when you consider the value and money given to each.

"Money" and "value" isn't a variable in regards to the comment that it was done because Crabtree isn't good. The money and value is a variable because of how little top-talent they had at the position, as a whole.

You think that adding Moss, Manningham, and Jenkins to replace Swain, Hastings, and Jurovich is an indictment of Crabtree?

That's beyond a "stretch."

It was clear that the WR position had the least depth of any position on the team BY FAR. Trent Baalke addressed the issue aggressively. In 2011 one could say "the 49ers don't have much at WR aside from Crabtree." That can't be said in 2012.

The 49ers added 3 talented WRs at a cost of roughly $6.5 Million per season. I don't know how that is considered too much value.

In essence, they added Randy Moss, Mario Manningham, and A.J. Jenkins for essentially the same price as signing Robert Meachem.

farfromforgotten
05-19-2012, 10:33 PM
"Money" and "value" isn't a variable in regards to the comment that it was done because Crabtree isn't good. The money and value is a variable because of how little top-talent they had at the position, as a whole.

You think that adding Moss, Manningham, and Jenkins to replace Swain, Hastings, and Jurovich is an indictment of Crabtree?

That's beyond a "stretch."

Well said. Its funny how people want to rip Crabtree in a way for the team trying to become more dynamic on offense, which was clearly our weakest link last year, specifically the passing game. If we would have done nothing, these same people would have ripped the front office for not doing anything to improve that area. Ridiculous.

The whole offense will be made better by these moves. Moss is the wildcard, ofcourse, but Manningham, Jenkins, and James undoubtably are more talented than the players we rolled out there last year on a regular basis. Outside of Davis and Crabtree that is.

The Alex
05-20-2012, 12:07 AM
You think that adding Moss, Manningham, and Jenkins to replace Swain, Hastings, and Jurovich is an indictment of Crabtree?


No, I'm saying that even if it were an indictment, trying to pass it off as an equal one to the Giants adding Cruz and a bunch of midrounders is asinine.

phlysac
05-20-2012, 12:17 AM
No, I'm saying that even if it were an indictment, trying to pass it off as an equal one to the Giants adding Cruz and a bunch of midrounders is asinine.

I only passed it off as equal based on the assumption that aggressively adding WRs means your #1 WR isn't good.

Ness
05-20-2012, 12:27 AM
Didn't Harbaugh just say the other day that Crabtree has the best hands he has ever seen for a wide receiver?

VAfy-ya
05-20-2012, 12:33 AM
"Money" and "value" isn't a variable in regards to the comment that it was done because Crabtree isn't good. The money and value is a variable because of how little top-talent they had at the position, as a whole.

You think that adding Moss, Manningham, and Jenkins to replace Swain, Hastings, and Jurovich is an indictment of Crabtree?

That's beyond a "stretch."

It was clear that the WR position had the least depth of any position on the team BY FAR. Trent Baalke addressed the issue aggressively. In 2011 one could say "the 49ers don't have much at WR aside from Crabtree." That can't be said in 2012.

The 49ers added 3 talented WRs at a cost of roughly $6.5 Million per season. I don't know how that is considered too much value.

In essence, they added Randy Moss, Mario Manningham, and A.J. Jenkins for essentially the same price as signing Robert Meachem.

This post makes too much sense on so many levels. But your a Niner fan so its obvious your just a homer and in return, it must be belittled.

/sarcasm

phlysac
05-20-2012, 12:40 AM
and their approach in 2012 isn't far removed from that of 2011.

Drafted WRs - Ronald Johnson | A.J. Jenkins
Flyer on a FA Vet WR w/ baggage - Braylon Edwards | Randy Moss
1 year deal - Ted Ginn | Ted Ginn

The only difference is the addition of Mario Manningham. But he was a FA signing to replace Joshua Morgan. If they re-signed Morgan it would've been exactly the same.

whatadai
05-20-2012, 01:09 AM
This post makes too much sense on so many levels. But your a Niner fan so its obvious your just a homer and in return, it must be belittled.

/sarcasm

Did I ever disagree with his post? No. I actually agree with him that the acquisition of WRs this off-season does not mean Crabtree is on his way out. Every post I've made in this thread is on Crabtree's laziness and that all you've been doing to refute anything I say is some excuse or insult. I have one claim, that he's lazy and feels entitled, and that he won't reach his potential until he quits this diva act. I've shown you enough instances where this attitude has caused trouble with others on his team. However, you keep bringing up excuses and blaming every other player on this team from Alex Smith to Vernon Davis or blaming the front office and coaches for their offensive scheme and their lack of inability to get a real WR across from him. Yet you've failed to show me one shred of evidence that proves this is why Crabtree has been mediocre at best, however, if asked I can easily show you instances of WRs that have done great even with constantly changing offensive schemes, mediocre WRs across from them, horrible QB play, etc. And why is he held to such a high standard? Because he was the 10th pick in the draft who held out for a huge contract then failed to be above average for the next 3 seasons.

Honestly, all you've been doing is attacking me on every post instead of proving me wrong. All I hear is you yapping your mouth saying things like "you don't know what you're talking about cause you don't watch enough games" or "none of your beliefs on Crabtree can be true because you're biased." How about using a better argument than claiming that I don't know ****?
And if Crabtree continues to be lazy this off-season, he'll just prove me right during the regular season.

And stop saying Smith failed to throw to him every time he was open. It was few and far between. He also liked to drop the few throws that were thrown to him. He also completely disappeared during the playoffs...considering you had **** after him on the roster at WR...and he was the number 2 target on the team after Davis, who balled, it's sad that he wasn't able to take advantage of it. Even his only notable catch in the playoffs was his TD catch that was due to the Saints DBs messing up on assignments. The guy completely disappeared and none of it was Smith's fault.

phlysac
05-20-2012, 01:47 AM
I meet more in the middle. I don't think he's bad. Not even close. I think he's been quite good. He hasn't had alot of explosive and/or flashy plays which has hurt.

But I also agree that he can motivate his work and couple that with the blessing of good health to accomplish much, MUCH more as an NFL player.

He put himself in a bad light, and it will take alot for his play to overcome the image in which he's been cast/cast on himself.

I have full confidence this process has already begun and he will impress for years.

whatadai
05-20-2012, 02:19 AM
I meet more in the middle. I don't think he's bad. Not even close. I think he's been quite good. He hasn't had alot of explosive and/or flashy plays which has hurt.

But I also agree that he can motivate his work and couple that with the blessing of good health to accomplish much, MUCH more as an NFL player.

He put himself in a bad light, and it will take alot for his play to overcome the image in which he's been cast/cast on himself.

I have full confidence this process has already begun and he will impress for years.

I'm saying he's bad compared to his draft position...and the way he's acted as if he was some superstar. A lot of talk but not enough to show for it. For a 10th pick I expected more impact for the team especially in his 3rd year. Like I said in a previous reply, DHB and Crabtree are both busts. But DHB works his ass off and his high draft position was due to Davis' fault, not DHB's, and he shuts up and works, so it's difficult to criticize him. While Crabtree believed he deserved more money than where he was picked...please...but yeah, if he can get his act together, I think he'll reach his potential.

BamaFalcon59
05-20-2012, 10:28 AM
JMO but if DHB and Crabtree can be consistent 1,000 yard performers, it would be unfair to call them busts. They may not be elite NFL receivers but I wouldn't designate them as busts if they can do what I aforementioned.

bigbluedefense
05-20-2012, 12:45 PM
Gotta love the offseason.

Crabtree isn't a good NFL player. He can't separate, he's not the best route runner, he's not big enough to body guys up, he just doesn't get open on a regular basis.

Just watch him play. He's not very good. And his work ethic doesn't help matters either.

Hes establishing himself as a very average possession WR. That's not top 10 worthy.

He's been in the league for 3 years now, and he wasn't a developmental player coming out of the draft. You are what you are after awhile, and he is what he is.

DHB needed development, so his production is somewhat understandable. And he can continue to develop. Crabtree is what he is, he's not going to get much better than what you see.

Expecting a light to suddenly come on for him is wishful thinking. He's not that good.

whatadai
05-20-2012, 01:05 PM
JMO but if DHB and Crabtree can be consistent 1,000 yard performers, it would be unfair to call them busts. They may not be elite NFL receivers but I wouldn't designate them as busts if they can do what I aforementioned.

IMO a 1000 yard performance is a poor indicator of success. What if the 1000 yards came on 150 receptions? So many of the other stats have to be taken into account along with where the players were drafted. Jeremy Maclin, Hakeem Nicks, Percy Harvin, and Mike Wallace have all outproduced both of them. And if you don't want to look at stats since coaches and offensive schemes could affect them so much, look at impact. All these WRs have impacted their team immensely, while Crabtree and DHB have barely made a dent in their teams' success rate.

BamaFalcon59
05-20-2012, 03:27 PM
I'm not saying they were worthy of top ten picks. But considering how many top ten picks end up far worse, they aren't busts. IMO. The word has too heavy of a negative conotation.

farfromforgotten
05-20-2012, 05:02 PM
Jeremy Maclin, Hakeem Nicks, Percy Harvin, and Mike Wallace have all outproduced both of them. And if you don't want to look at stats since coaches and offensive schemes could affect them so much, look at impact. All these WRs have impacted their team immensely, while Crabtree and DHB have barely made a dent in their teams' success rate.

I think its more of a factor that 3 out of the 4 WRs you named have Vick, Eli, and Big Ben as their QBs.

whatadai
05-20-2012, 05:15 PM
I think its more of a factor that 3 out of the 4 WRs you named have Vick, Eli, and Big Ben as their QBs.

But Maclin looked as good with McNabb and Kolb. Eli Manning didn't breakout until Nicks came...so I would say Nick caused Manning's breakout. Roethlisberger's breakout didn't come until Wallace came too.

Job Reborn
05-20-2012, 05:41 PM
But Maclin looked as good with McNabb and Kolb. Eli Manning didn't breakout until Nicks came...so I would say Nick caused Manning's breakout. Roethlisberger's breakout didn't come until Wallace came too.

I don't remember Hakeem Knicks in the 2007 playoffs.

whatadai
05-20-2012, 05:44 PM
I don't remember Hakeem Knicks in the 2007 playoffs.

Pretty sure I said when Manning brokeout...he didn't until 2009. Just cause he had one lucky throw in 2007 doesn't mean he was a great QB then.

Bolt
05-20-2012, 05:45 PM
But Maclin looked as good with McNabb and Kolb. Eli Manning didn't breakout until Nicks came...so I would say Nick caused Manning's breakout. Roethlisberger's breakout didn't come until Wallace came too.

I'd argue this, especially Roethlisberger. Arguably his best statistical season (2007) and a Super Bowl came without Wallace. Suggesting that he didn't break out until the 2009 season is just absurd.

Job Reborn
05-20-2012, 05:47 PM
Pretty sure I said when Manning brokeout...he didn't until 2009. Just cause he had one lucky throw in 2007 doesn't mean he was a great QB then.

He lacked consistency until about 2010, maybe even 2011. But he's been a damn good QB for a long time.

Bolt
05-20-2012, 05:52 PM
Pretty sure I said when Manning brokeout...he didn't until 2009. Just cause he had one lucky throw in 2007 doesn't mean he was a great QB then.

I'd say Manning reached his prime around then but I wouldn't say he "broke out" then. I consider breaking out when a player finally reaches potential in a short span or when a player seemingly comes from nowhere to become a good player so I could say Manning never really broke out. He quickly grew to become a good quarterback and he's followed a similar career path of other top quarterbacks.

whatadai
05-20-2012, 05:55 PM
I'd argue this, especially Roethlisberger. Arguably his best statistical season (2007) and a Super Bowl came without Wallace. Suggesting that he didn't break out until the 2009 season is just absurd.

It's not that absurd. I say it's arguable both ways. IMO, the 2007 Steelers had a much better run game and defense. The offensive line was actually good back then too. They also added Holmes the year before. I think having such a great team around him helped him get that surge in statistics, but the real breakout didn't happen until he had both Holmes and Wallace on the team. And seeing that he hasn't regressed much with the loss of Holmes, I would say that Wallace was the biggest factor.

whatadai
05-20-2012, 05:57 PM
He lacked consistency until about 2010, maybe even 2011. But he's been a damn good QB for a long time.

He's been good. Not great. Same argument I have for Roethlisberger. They were good, but they didn't reach their potential until Wallace and Nicks came.

With their draft positions, DHB and Crabtree should have had the same impact already, that is why I call them busts. But I do agree that bust has a negative connotation that might be a little too strong to call DHB and Crabtree.

Job Reborn
05-20-2012, 06:15 PM
With their draft positions, DHB and Crabtree should have had the same impact already, that is why I call them busts. But I do agree that bust has a negative connotation that might be a little too strong to call DHB and Crabtree.

I think as of right now, they're more like a disappointment. I reserve bust for those who stay on the roster for two-three years, never really reach 'starter' label (or reach it for just a very short while) and are out of the team/league quickly after.

Bolt
05-20-2012, 06:27 PM
I think as of right now, they're more like a disappointment. I reserve bust for those who stay on the roster for two-three years, never really reach 'starter' label (or reach it for just a very short while) and are out of the team/league quickly after.

I find Heyward-Bey far from a disappointment at all, in fact I was impressed by his play last season. He's still horribly inconsistant, but put up very respectable numbers from average at best quarterbacks. Everyone knew he was an extremely raw prospect, to me the fact that he has gotten to almost 1000 yards in three seasons is impressive for a player who was that raw and went through that much scrutiny.

I agree with what was stated earlier; he's only conisdered a bust for his draft position. A bust is a player who underachieves based off their ability throughout their career. If I picked a ****** player in the top 10 would that make him a bust?

Bolt
05-20-2012, 06:30 PM
It's not that absurd. I say it's arguable both ways. IMO, the 2007 Steelers had a much better run game and defense. The offensive line was actually good back then too. They also added Holmes the year before. I think having such a great team around him helped him get that surge in statistics, but the real breakout didn't happen until he had both Holmes and Wallace on the team. And seeing that he hasn't regressed much with the loss of Holmes, I would say that Wallace was the biggest factor.

Ibsee what you're saying, but I think its just that we consider a 'break out' season to be two different things. Saying that giving Roethlisberger a deep threat in Wallace in 09 to expand his game I guess makes sense to me as a potential 'break out', I just consider that going into his prime as he was arguably a top 6 or 7 quarterback in the league before that.

whatadai
05-20-2012, 07:01 PM
I find Heyward-Bey far from a disappointment at all, in fact I was impressed by his play last season. He's still horribly inconsistant, but put up very respectable numbers from average at best quarterbacks. Everyone knew he was an extremely raw prospect, to me the fact that he has gotten to almost 1000 yards in three seasons is impressive for a player who was that raw and went through that much scrutiny.

I agree with what was stated earlier; he's only conisdered a bust for his draft position. A bust is a player who underachieves based off their ability throughout their career. If I picked a ****** player in the top 10 would that make him a bust?

He's not a disappointment from the expectations that were placed on him...since those expectations were so low. But you rarely see expectations that low placed on a player drafted where he was picked. So if you look only at where he was drafted, he would be a disappointment. If you look at the expectations Al Davis had for him, he's probably a disappointment too. I think the interesting thing is that while he's improved a lot on not dropping, even though he still does drop a lot of passes, 70% of his receptions last year went for 1st downs. With a real off-season with Palmer and a 4th year of working hard, he can really nail that flanker job down.

VAfy-ya
05-20-2012, 09:54 PM
Did I ever disagree with his post? No. I actually agree with him that the acquisition of WRs this off-season does not mean Crabtree is on his way out. Every post I've made in this thread is on Crabtree's laziness and that all you've been doing to refute anything I say is some excuse or insult. I have one claim, that he's lazy and feels entitled, and that he won't reach his potential until he quits this diva act. I've shown you enough instances where this attitude has caused trouble with others on his team. However, you keep bringing up excuses and blaming every other player on this team from Alex Smith to Vernon Davis or blaming the front office and coaches for their offensive scheme and their lack of inability to get a real WR across from him. Yet you've failed to show me one shred of evidence that proves this is why Crabtree has been mediocre at best, however, if asked I can easily show you instances of WRs that have done great even with constantly changing offensive schemes, mediocre WRs across from them, horrible QB play, etc. And why is he held to such a high standard? Because he was the 10th pick in the draft who held out for a huge contract then failed to be above average for the next 3 seasons.

Honestly, all you've been doing is attacking me on every post instead of proving me wrong. All I hear is you yapping your mouth saying things like "you don't know what you're talking about cause you don't watch enough games" or "none of your beliefs on Crabtree can be true because you're biased." How about using a better argument than claiming that I don't know ****?
And if Crabtree continues to be lazy this off-season, he'll just prove me right during the regular season.

And stop saying Smith failed to throw to him every time he was open. It was few and far between. He also liked to drop the few throws that were thrown to him. He also completely disappeared during the playoffs...considering you had **** after him on the roster at WR...and he was the number 2 target on the team after Davis, who balled, it's sad that he wasn't able to take advantage of it. Even his only notable catch in the playoffs was his TD catch that was due to the Saints DBs messing up on assignments. The guy completely disappeared and none of it was Smith's fault.

Seriously, wtf? No one mentioned your name. Every post I make in this thread is not directed towards you unless your directly quoted so chillax, its not that deep. We dont see eye to eye when it comes to Crabs so leave it at that because I already have.

whatadai
05-21-2012, 01:46 AM
Seriously, wtf? No one mentioned your name. Every post I make in this thread is not directed towards you unless your directly quoted so chillax, its not that deep. We dont see eye to eye when it comes to Crabs so leave it at that because I already have.

Yeah...I called you a homer and the previous reply and then you go and use that sarcastically...it wasn't directed towards me at all. You're the one that needs to "chillax" dude. Getting all worked up and cause people think Crabtree is lazy.

Bengalsrocket
05-21-2012, 03:36 AM
It's not that absurd. I say it's arguable both ways. IMO, the 2007 Steelers had a much better run game and defense. The offensive line was actually good back then too. They also added Holmes the year before. I think having such a great team around him helped him get that surge in statistics, but the real breakout didn't happen until he had both Holmes and Wallace on the team. And seeing that he hasn't regressed much with the loss of Holmes, I would say that Wallace was the biggest factor.

No, it's pretty absurd :P Statistics aside (since you don't want to believe in his 2007 season) Roethlisberger has been destroying defenses on 3rd down since his first Superbowl. Yes, he threw a lot of interceptions in 2006, but that's because the offense was run, run, pass on 3rd and 8+.

His game is a little different than "prototypical", but no one does it better. He "broke out" a long time ago.

Maybe this is a semantics argument though. Typically in sports people tend to use the term break out to describe players who seperate themselves from the average players. Roethlisberger hasn't been average for awhile now :P

Bolt
05-21-2012, 07:35 AM
No, it's pretty absurd :P Statistics aside (since you don't want to believe in his 2007 season) Roethlisberger has been destroying defenses on 3rd down since his first Superbowl. Yes, he threw a lot of interceptions in 2006, but that's because the offense was run, run, pass on 3rd and 8+.

His game is a little different than "prototypical", but no one does it better. He "broke out" a long time ago.

Maybe this is a semantics argument though. Typically in sports people tend to use the term break out to describe players who seperate themselves from the average players. Roethlisberger hasn't been average for awhile now :P

Exactly what I've been trying to say haha. You just described it better then I did. I don't recall seeing huge differences in Roethlisberger's game from 07, to 08, to 09, so I wouldn't call that a break out.

Monomach
05-21-2012, 11:49 AM
Didn't Harbaugh just say the other day that Crabtree has the best hands he has ever seen for a wide receiver?

Don't believe everything a team says to a reporter for your standard puff piece. The Bears have been saying for six offseasons "this is the year Devin Hester is going to break out!" The guys is about to turn 30, lol. Mike Tice says that the worst left tackle in the league is on the verge of dominance.

Anyway, you're right about Crabtree not being a bust. That's silly talk. He's already proven he's not that...and if he were paired with a better QB, people wouldn't be talking like that. I'm unbiased on the matter and I've seen him play. His QB is obviously holding him back. He doesn't look like he's going to be dominant or anything, but he definitely looks like he can just as good as Keyshawn Johnson or Muhsin Muhammad in their primes.

Real busts: Rashaun Woods, Desmond Howard, David Terrell, Troy Edwards, Troy Williamson, Mike Williams, Ted Ginn Jr.

Anyone who feels comfortable putting Crabtree in that list is a hater.

...and yes, Crabtree still looks better than HeyBey.

phlysac
05-21-2012, 12:48 PM
Anyway, you're right about Crabtree not being a bust. That's silly talk. He's already proven he's not that...and if he were paired with a better QB, people wouldn't be talking like that. I'm unbiased on the matter and I've seen him play. His QB is obviously holding him back. He doesn't look like he's going to be dominant or anything, but he definitely looks like he can just as good as Keyshawn Johnson or Muhsin Muhammad in their primes.

QuarterbackS in general. He's played with Alex Smith, Troy Smith, and Shaun Hill.

Crabtree did quite well considering how conservative the Harbaugh offense was last season. If Alex Smith continues his improved play and the additions of explosive targets loosens defenses on Crabtree, I expect him to have great success.

But I'm a blind homer.

Borat
05-21-2012, 01:54 PM
But I'm a blind homer.

Don't forget about the sliced bread stuff too!

phlysac
05-23-2012, 11:05 PM
Didn't Harbaugh just say the other day that Crabtree has the best hands he has ever seen for a wide receiver?
Don't believe everything a team says to a reporter for your standard puff piece. The Bears have been saying for six offseasons "this is the year Devin Hester is going to break out!" The guys is about to turn 30, lol. Mike Tice says that the worst left tackle in the league is on the verge of dominance.

You're absolutely right, but Harbaugh doesn't back down...

Coach Jim Harbaugh stated a week ago that 49ers wide receiver Michael Crabtree has the best hands of any wide receiver he has ever seen.

Nothing has happened in a week to make Harbaugh change his mind.

"Yes, yes, he's got tremendous hands," Harbaugh said Wednesday of Crabtree.

And when asked if he meant what he said, Harbaugh did not back off.

"The comment stands on its own merit," Harbaugh said. "I know you guys have dissected it about every which way it can be dissected. But it is literal. It is a literal fact, what I believe as I see it and believe it to be."
http://www.csnbayarea.com/football-san-francisco-niners/niners-talk/Harbaugh-reiterates-Crabtrees-hands-are-?blockID=713038&feedID=5936

LonghornsLegend
05-27-2012, 12:46 AM
Those big drops Crabtree had in that Saints game in the playoffs are the closest memory I have of him. That's crunch time, that's when you want to see a guy show up and take over the moment because he wants the ball in his hands, he fell short big time.


I don't want to hear about how "Alex Smith is his QB so that's the best his numbers are going to be" because big time WR's produce no matter who the QB is. Dez Bryant had 5 TD's in 7 games when Jon Kitna was playing, and it's not like there were a ton of good throws in there. Anquan Boldin went nuts with Jeff Blake, a WR is supposed to make his QB better and while this offense isn't the Saints there is some opportunity here for him to produce much better.



He's had three 100 yard games in 3 seasons, and I've never seen any game changing ability from here. Where are the flashes of greatness? Where is he taking over a game by just touching the ball? He's not a threat with the ball in his hands at any point and I don't see much upside with his run after the catch ability.



His highlight tape is literally 90% catching slant passes and getting tackled immediately. I haven't really saw any flashes of being that dominant force he was expected to be and he's played 3 years now. I have no doubt that he'll be a solid NFL player for a long time but not dominant, or elite, or a #1 guy.


I think his ceiling is a Muhsin Muhammed type of career. He'll always produce just enough to not be considered terrible. He's had more then enough time to show flashes of being an elite WR and I think if your waiting for that to still happen your fooling yourself.

phlysac
05-27-2012, 12:59 AM
Those big drops Crabtree had in that Saints game in the playoffs are the closest memory I have of him. That's crunch time, that's when you want to see a guy show up and take over the moment because he wants the ball in his hands, he fell short big time.


I don't want to hear about how "Alex Smith is his QB so that's the best his numbers are going to be" because big time WR's produce no matter who the QB is. Dez Bryant had 5 TD's in 7 games when Jon Kitna was playing, and it's not like there were a ton of good throws in there. Anquan Boldin went nuts with Jeff Blake, a WR is supposed to make his QB better and while this offense isn't the Saints there is some opportunity here for him to produce much better.



He's had three 100 yard games in 3 seasons, and I've never seen any game changing ability from here. Where are the flashes of greatness? Where is he taking over a game by just touching the ball? He's not a threat with the ball in his hands at any point and I don't see much upside with his run after the catch ability.



His highlight tape is literally 90% catching slant passes and getting tackled immediately. I haven't really saw any flashes of being that dominant force he was expected to be and he's played 3 years now. I have no doubt that he'll be a solid NFL player for a long time but not dominant, or elite, or a #1 guy.


I think his ceiling is a Muhsin Muhammed type of career. He'll always produce just enough to not be considered terrible. He's had more then enough time to show flashes of being an elite WR and I think if your waiting for that to still happen your fooling yourself.
I truly feel alot of it has to do with health. We shall see.

Michael Crabtree is hearing late-May hosannas from Jim Harbaugh (the best hands ever!) and now Alex Smith, who said Wednesday that he’s never seen the fourth-year wide receiver with such a spring in his step.

“He’s healthy and I think he’s excited about that,” Smith said. “I think he’s feeling really good. You come out and watch and he’s running better than he ever has since I’ve seen him. Running really well out here, making plays. It’s exciting to see.”

Of course, plenty of fans aren’t buying into Crabtree’s spring stardom based his work, or lack thereof, last winter when it mattered most.

Crabtree’s totals from two playoff games: 5 catches, 28 yards and at least two drops.

In the NFC Championship Game, he had one catch. His longest catch of the postseason: 9 yards.

His big-game vanishing act can’t be dismissed, but it has overshadowed the fact that Crabtree, viewed by many as a top-10 draft bust, put up No. 1-wideout-worthy numbers during the final two-and-half months of 2011. In the season’s final 11 games, Crabtree had 61 catches for 742 yards and four touchdowns, which would translate to 89 catches, 1,079 yards and six touchdowns over a 16-game season.

During that stretch, Crabtree had more receptions than Arizona’s Larry Fitzgerald, Kansas City’s Dwayne Bowe and then-Dolphins wideout Brandon Marshall had in their final 11 games. He also had more yards than Pittsburgh’s Mike Wallace and as many touchdowns as New England’s Wes Welker.

Crabtree doesn’t have the size, speed or pedigree of Randy Moss. He doesn’t have the big-game heroics of Mario Manningham. And he doesn’t possess the promising clean slate of first-round pick A.J. Jenkins.

Still, while Moss was in retirement, Manningham was in the midst of an injury plagued 39-catch season and Jenkins was in the Big Ten, Crabtree was quietly producing like a No. 1 NFL wide receiver during the latter stages of 2011.

If he can maintain his current health, it’s a title he could hold in 2012, even with the added competition on the roster.

“I know a lot of the new faces get a lot of the attention,” Smith said. “But he’s doing really well here.”

* Below is a look at how Crabtree ranked among the wide receivers that finished among the NFL’s top 10 in receptions and yards in 2011. The numbers are from each wideout’s final 11 games of the regular season:

RECEPTIONS

1. Wes Welker, Patriots, 77

2. Percy Harvin, Vikings, 69

T3. Marques Colston, Saints, 68

T3. Roddy White, Falcons, 68

5. Calvin Johnson, Lions, 67

6. Victor Cruz, Giants, 63

7. Michael Crabtree, 49ers, 61

8. Dwayne Bowe, Chiefs, 58

T9. Larry Fitzgerald, Cardinals, 53

T9. Brandon Marshall, Dolphins, 53

11. Steve Smith, Panthers, 52

YARDS

1. Calvin Johnson, Lions, 1,230

2. Victor Cruz, Giants, 1,150

3. Larry Fitzgerald, Cardinals, 984

4. Jordy Nelson, Packers, 954

5. Roddy White, Falcons, 944

6. Wes Welker, Patriots, 829

7. Brandon Marshall, Dolphins, 792

8. Steve Smith, Panthers, 785

9. Hakeem Nicks, Giants, 780

10. Michael Crabtree, 49ers, 742

11. Mike Wallace, Steelers, 657
http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2012/05/24/inside-the-numbers-crabtree-was-a-no-1-in-final-11-games-of-11/

Monomach
05-27-2012, 01:26 PM
You're absolutely right, but Harbaugh doesn't back down...


http://www.csnbayarea.com/football-san-francisco-niners/niners-talk/Harbaugh-reiterates-Crabtrees-hands-are-?blockID=713038&feedID=5936

Saying it multiple times doesn't make it true. Not sure why you bothered posting this when it's just the usual obvious optimistic lying a coach does in the offseason.

I mean...you don't really think it's true do you? I'm kind of scared that you do with all of the bolding and whatnot. That would be a level of homerism attained by a special few.



I think his ceiling is a Muhsin Muhammed type of career. He'll always produce just enough to not be considered terrible.
A Muhsin Muhammad career is worthy of a top ten pick. If you KNEW a guy was going to be Muhsin Muhammad, you'd take him top ten no problem. That's not producing just enough to not be considered terrible.

bigbluedefense
05-27-2012, 02:35 PM
Those big drops Crabtree had in that Saints game in the playoffs are the closest memory I have of him. That's crunch time, that's when you want to see a guy show up and take over the moment because he wants the ball in his hands, he fell short big time.


I don't want to hear about how "Alex Smith is his QB so that's the best his numbers are going to be" because big time WR's produce no matter who the QB is. Dez Bryant had 5 TD's in 7 games when Jon Kitna was playing, and it's not like there were a ton of good throws in there. Anquan Boldin went nuts with Jeff Blake, a WR is supposed to make his QB better and while this offense isn't the Saints there is some opportunity here for him to produce much better.



He's had three 100 yard games in 3 seasons, and I've never seen any game changing ability from here. Where are the flashes of greatness? Where is he taking over a game by just touching the ball? He's not a threat with the ball in his hands at any point and I don't see much upside with his run after the catch ability.



His highlight tape is literally 90% catching slant passes and getting tackled immediately. I haven't really saw any flashes of being that dominant force he was expected to be and he's played 3 years now. I have no doubt that he'll be a solid NFL player for a long time but not dominant, or elite, or a #1 guy.


I think his ceiling is a Muhsin Muhammed type of career. He'll always produce just enough to not be considered terrible. He's had more then enough time to show flashes of being an elite WR and I think if your waiting for that to still happen your fooling yourself.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

There is nothing special about Michael Crabtree. Not his speed, his get off, his size, his route running, his timing, nothing.

Can he be a productive player? Sure, but he screams average. And I've seen nothing, not even flashes, to make me think he's gonna suddenly change.

LonghornsLegend
05-27-2012, 04:30 PM
A Muhsin Muhammad career is worthy of a top ten pick. If you KNEW a guy was going to be Muhsin Muhammad, you'd take him top ten no problem. That's not producing just enough to not be considered terrible.


You'd draft a guy in the top 10 knowing full well you were going to get three 1000 yard seasons out of 14? One season with double digit TD's? Maybe we are talking about the wrong player...

Bulldogs
05-27-2012, 04:34 PM
I remember Muhsin had that one great year in Carolina when Steve Smith went down but other than that he was nothing to write home about.

edit: It was 2004. 93 catches, 1405 yards, 16 TDs. Ridiculous season by any standard.

farfromforgotten
05-27-2012, 07:48 PM
He's had three 100 yard games in 3 seasons, and I've never seen any game changing ability from here. Where are the flashes of greatness? Where is he taking over a game by just touching the ball? He's not a threat with the ball in his hands at any point and I don't see much upside with his run after the catch ability.

Well, he is getting 100 yard games at a better clip than your boy Dez at this point. Dez has 1 in 2 seasons.

Monomach
05-28-2012, 01:54 PM
You'd draft a guy in the top 10 knowing full well you were going to get three 1000 yard seasons out of 14? One season with double digit TD's? Maybe we are talking about the wrong player...

1. An average of 800 yards per season over fourteen years (practically unheard of) while being the second option for 11 seasons and with terrible QBs for his entire career.
2. An average of 900 yards per season once he became a starter.
3. A top two blocking WR for his entire career.
4. What percentage of top ten wideouts finish their careers with over 10k yards? Can't be high. Only seven top ten wideouts have done it.
5. What percentage of wideouts picked anywhere finish their careers with over 10k yards? Can't be too high, seeing as only 34 WRs have done it.

All-time positions for WR stats:
17th in receptions
23rd in receiving yards
59th in receiving TDs
71st in yards per game

That's with Jake Delhomme and the dark years of the Bears changing starting QBs every other game.

Yes, if you absolutely knew a wide receiver was going to have Muhsin Muhammad's career, he'd 100% be worth a top ten pick. It's a no-brainer. He's one of the best possession receivers of all-time. This forum drastically overvalues draft picks and undervalues any receiver who isn't a prototypical #1.

Just productive enough to not be considered terrible?!

Monomach
05-28-2012, 02:15 PM
I'm going to go ahead and lay this out there...

Both Marvin Harrison and Muhsin Muhammad were drafted in 1996. If they'd switched teams, people would be dumping on Harrison and calling Muhammad a hall of famer.

_YL_
06-02-2012, 08:07 PM
DHB works had every off season to work on his flaws actually he never leaves in bay area in the off-season. He is not so much as the down field threat he is more of a come back slant inside type of WR. D.Moore is the deep target. But DHB still has catches with his body every once in a while but has really approved and he would hit the 1,000 yard mark this season.

WCH
06-02-2012, 08:39 PM
Below is a look at how Crabtree ranked among the wide receivers that finished among the NFL’s top 10 in receptions and yards in 2011. The numbers are from each wideout’s final 11 games of the regular season:

So we're going to throw out the first five games (roughly 1/3 of the season), and then trot out the resulting statistics?

What is this I don't even...

VAfy-ya
06-02-2012, 08:56 PM
So we're going to throw out the first five games (roughly 1/3 of the season), and then trot out the resulting statistics?

What is this I don't even...

He wasnt a 100% healthy to start the year. He re-aggrevated his foot in the first game, didnt return and actually sat out the Cowboys game. Most think his production in the later portion of the season is directly related to his health improving.

WCH
06-02-2012, 09:01 PM
He wasnt a 100% healthy to start the year. He re-aggrevated his foot in the first game, didnt return and actually sat out the Cowboys game. Most think his production in the later portion of the season is directly related to his health improving.

My point was that you can't just toss out all of the weeks that he was unhealthy and then claim he finished the season as anything even close to a top 10 WR. Greg Jennings is demonstrably better and more productive than Crabtree, but was conspicuously absent from those lists, because he was injured and missed several games late in the season. I'm guessing that a lot of other productive WRs had nagging injuries or just flat-out missed games during the last two thirds of the season.

You guys are tossing out a third of the season and then saying "look where he ranks in this subset of the season!!!"

I still like Crabtree, but arguments like that aren't going to do much to drum up support from people who aren't wearing red-and-gold tinted glasses.

phlysac
06-02-2012, 10:59 PM
My point was that you can't just toss out all of the weeks that he was unhealthy and then claim he finished the season as anything even close to a top 10 WR. Greg Jennings is demonstrably better and more productive than Crabtree, but was conspicuously absent from those lists, because he was injured and missed several games late in the season. I'm guessing that a lot of other productive WRs had nagging injuries or just flat-out missed games during the last two thirds of the season.

You guys are tossing out a third of the season and then saying "look where he ranks in this subset of the season!!!"

I still like Crabtree, but arguments like that aren't going to do much to drum up support from people who aren't wearing red-and-gold tinted glasses.

Or it just shows that some only look at the "stats", whereas you could look at it as his achievable production.

I quoted the article to show he can produce and isn't some terrible bust WR as some have insinuated/stated.

Am I rating him? Absolutely not. But he can produce at a high level when healthy.

49ersfan_87
06-03-2012, 02:33 PM
Or it just shows that some only look at the "stats", whereas you could look at it as his achievable production.

I quoted the article to show he can produce and isn't some terrible bust WR as some have insinuated/stated.

Am I rating him? Absolutely not. But he can produce at a high level when healthy.

He had a lot of catches in that stretch but a low YPC (12.1). He was also the only receiving target on the team besides VD so he was definitely going to be the top target. And while he occasionally made a game breaking play, it indicates he wasn't a consistent gamebreaker. Not to mention 3 of his 4 TD's came against the Rams (with 1 of them on a trick field goal nobody saw coming).

Basically, analyzing rather than just ranking it, i don't see it as a high level of production. I just see a guy who's a slightly above average possesion WR. But thats just my take.

LonghornsLegend
06-03-2012, 02:52 PM
He had a lot of catches in that stretch but a low YPC (12.1). He was also the only receiving target on the team besides VD so he was definitely going to be the top target. And while he occasionally made a game breaking play, it indicates he wasn't a consistent gamebreaker. Not to mention 3 of his 4 TD's came against the Rams (with 1 of them on a trick field goal nobody saw coming).

Basically, analyzing rather than just ranking it, i don't see it as a high level of production. I just see a guy who's a slightly above average possesion WR. But thats just my take.



This. That's why there is so much back and forth on him, because it's not like he's so bad he's going to be out of the league or can't make an NFL roster, he just seems average and I don't doubt that he won't be able to produce, but there has been enough of a sampling to know what you have with him.


He's played 3 years, caught nearly 200 balls, he's not going to turn into a game changing, elite WR that can take over games.



Why is it that Kenny Britt who has caught almost 100 less balls and everybody is pretty positive that he can be a stud? Because you can see it with your own eyes. You don't have to add up his stats, or guess what percentage of health he has played at.


There are quite a few studs at WR from that 09 class of WR's, Michael Crabtree certainly isn't one of them. Anyone who is still holding out hope for that is going to be grabbing at straws looking for any reason to come up with as to why it hasn't happened yet.

VAfy-ya
06-03-2012, 08:38 PM
This. That's why there is so much back and forth on him, because it's not like he's so bad he's going to be out of the league or can't make an NFL roster, he just seems average and I don't doubt that he won't be able to produce, but there has been enough of a sampling to know what you have with him.


He's played 3 years, caught nearly 200 balls, he's not going to turn into a game changing, elite WR that can take over games.



Why is it that Kenny Britt who has caught almost 100 less balls and everybody is pretty positive that he can be a stud? Because you can see it with your own eyes. You don't have to add up his stats, or guess what percentage of health he has played at.


There are quite a few studs at WR from that 09 class of WR's, Michael Crabtree certainly isn't one of them. Anyone who is still holding out hope for that is going to be grabbing at straws looking for any reason to come up with as to why it hasn't happened yet.

But your not telling us anything a MAJORITY of Niner fans don't already know. We all agree with just about all your points. But in this day and age of the FF mindset, you have to argue against ppl who only want to recite stats as the main arguement for contention. Myself and others are giving you reasons those stats could be skewed. But make no mistake about it, we all know what Crabtree isn't and that's a legitmate #1 WR, which he was drafted to be. But I still think he's a better WR than DHB, hands down. And I still think if he were in a more balanced offense, we wouldnt even be having this conversation because his numbers would be better and no one would feel the need to argue the point. But better numbers doesn't change the player he is. It just changes the perception to the average fan that doesn't bother to watch him closely, but rather let the numbers dictate whether he is a bust or not.

whatadai
08-03-2012, 08:21 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if he got "injured" again this off-season and is unable to do **** for most of it. Funny how he's always injured in the off-season and pre-season and then fine when it comes to the first week.

Called it.

phlysac
08-03-2012, 09:13 PM
Called it.

Let's see how long he's off. A preseason game AT ALL, would be his first ever.

whatadai
08-03-2012, 09:21 PM
Let's see how long he's off. A preseason game AT ALL, would be his first ever.

I know it could be a real injury and all his past ones could have been real too. But the timing and consistency of them all has to make you question them a little. Like I said before though...all this potential and no work ethic. Manningham is a decent #2 WR too...not the time to slack off anymore.

Rosebud
08-03-2012, 09:36 PM
Let's see how long he's off. A preseason game AT ALL, would be his first ever.

Wouldn't that be even more of an indictment? Not healthy enough for TC, but healthy enough to lace up for the first game of Preseason? Kinda plays to the laziness people worry about with him.

phlysac
08-03-2012, 10:01 PM
Wouldn't that be even more of an indictment? Not healthy enough for TC, but healthy enough to lace up for the first game of Preseason? Kinda plays to the laziness people worry about with him.

All reports are that he's been busting butt all offseason. He strained a calf muscle and the team is treating it with kid gloves. He's been out with the team every day. If it was a matter of being lazy (at least in regards to this season) I doubt he would've been a full participant all offseason when it wasn't mandatory.

Nonetheless. I want him healthy and I want him on the field. He needs to overcome the stigma that he's helped to create.

VAfy-ya
08-04-2012, 04:20 AM
Called it.

Well considering this isn't the off-season, you didnt call anything. And its been a whopping 6 days since he got injured. That's not even most of TC in the grand scheme of things.

VAfy-ya
08-04-2012, 04:31 AM
I know it could be a real injury and all his past ones could have been real too. But the timing and consistency of them all has to make you question them a little. Like I said before though...all this potential and no work ethic. Manningham is a decent #2 WR too...not the time to slack off anymore.

Manningham hasn't excatly been setting the world on fire in TC. It could be a real injury? I'll be sure to inform our training staff it could be tom foolery, not a sprain. Your trying way too hard. Might want to worry why Curry's trying to out-coach your coaches and less about Crabtree.

Ness
08-04-2012, 04:58 AM
Whatever. I'm over Crabtree. If he actually develops into something worthy of his draft spot, great. If not, it's not a big deal honestly. We have other guys on the roster who might either be on par with him or straight up better than him.

whatadai
08-04-2012, 02:22 PM
Manningham hasn't excatly been setting the world on fire in TC. It could be a real injury? I'll be sure to inform our training staff it could be tom foolery, not a sprain. Your trying way too hard. Might want to worry why Curry's trying to out-coach your coaches and less about Crabtree.

So much anger. Doing anything at TC is better than not doing anything at TC. You need to remember that Harbaugh has no attachment to Crabtree so if he fails, Harbaugh couldn't care less. He also drafted a guy with similar talents as Crabtree. Yes, Jenkins hasn't been doing so well in practice, but I trust Harbaugh's scouting ability, and I believe you do too. I'd wait a year on Jenkins to see how he fares in 2013. Crabtree also only has 2 years left on his contract with 2014 being a voidable year...so it would be the perfect time for Jenkins to show something.

Don't get why you're so angry anyways...I'm saying the guy is good...he just needs to work harder. Not like I'm pulling **** out of my ass to prove my point. I'm just saying what I see...and plenty of other people see the same thing. Sorry if you get a little angry about any small criticisms about any of your players, homer.

whatadai
08-04-2012, 02:23 PM
Whatever. I'm over Crabtree. If he actually develops into something worthy of his draft spot, great. If not, it's not a big deal honestly. We have other guys on the roster who might either be on par with him or straight up better than him.

I agree with that and Harbaugh didn't pick him so no one will put it on him.

whatadai
08-04-2012, 02:26 PM
Well considering this isn't the off-season, you didnt call anything. And its been a whopping 6 days since he got injured. That's not even most of TC in the grand scheme of things.

Um...training camp is the off-season. Pre-season games might as well be the off-season too considering they come before the regular season. I meant training camp all along too...sorry, if I knew we were arguing semantics, I'll make myself clearer next time.

VAfy-ya
08-04-2012, 05:23 PM
So much anger. Doing anything at TC is better than not doing anything at TC. You need to remember that Harbaugh has no attachment to Crabtree so if he fails, Harbaugh couldn't care less. He also drafted a guy with similar talents as Crabtree. Yes, Jenkins hasn't been doing so well in practice, but I trust Harbaugh's scouting ability, and I believe you do too. I'd wait a year on Jenkins to see how he fares in 2013. Crabtree also only has 2 years left on his contract with 2014 being a voidable year...so it would be the perfect time for Jenkins to show something.

Don't get why you're so angry anyways...I'm saying the guy is good...he just needs to work harder. Not like I'm pulling **** out of my ass to prove my point. I'm just saying what I see...and plenty of other people see the same thing. Sorry if you get a little angry about any small criticisms about any of your players, homer.

First, why would be angry? Like I said in this thread months ago, you have some sort of fascination with the comings and goings of Crabtree. So much so, you decided to grave-dig a thread that hadn't had a new post in months, just to get your rocks off.

I get it....because he's hasnt lived up to his draft status, you label him as someone with "poor work ehtic" or "doesn't work hard". Says who though? That's your perception of things but does Harbaugh strike you as a coach that woukd defend a guy who he truly thought exhibited poor work ethic? And Harbaugh's has raved about Crabtree at every turn since he's been the coach. Even saying how hard he's working to get back on the field just yesterday to reporters and how he's "choping at the bit" to be on the field with his teammates. His fellow players have applaued his work ethic for years now.

Injuries happen....its a part of the game. For some players, they happen more often. It is what it is. That's doesn't mean he's not working hard because he gets nicked every now and then. Does Frank Gore have poor work ethic because he get injured during the season every year? Does he not 'work hard enough' during the off-season because he misses regular season games every now and then? Maybe he's faking injuries too. Now of course, youe going to reply with something along the lines of well why is Crabtree injured every year beore the season?. I have no answer to that but I'm not going to speculate that its because he isnt working hard or because he's faking injuries. Those claims would be unfounded and unsubstianated. But you seem to have no problem doing the excat opposite. But because I call you on it, I must be mad right?

whatadai
08-04-2012, 07:23 PM
Manningham is a decent #2 WR too...not the time to slack off anymore.

Manningham hasn't excatly been setting the world on fire in TC.

http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/Mario-Manningham-Fits-Right-In/17ca2535-9b3a-45c8-8fb8-fea967f911cc

Man...I'm on fire this week.

First, why would be angry? Like I said in this thread months ago, you have some sort of fascination with the comings and goings of Crabtree. So much so, you decided to grave-dig a thread that hadn't had a new post in months, just to get your rocks off.

I get it....because he's hasnt lived up to his draft status, you label him as someone with "poor work ehtic" or "doesn't work hard". Says who though? That's your perception of things but does Harbaugh strike you as a coach that woukd defend a guy who he truly thought exhibited poor work ethic? And Harbaugh's has raved about Crabtree at every turn since he's been the coach. Even saying how hard he's working to get back on the field just yesterday to reporters and how he's "choping at the bit" to be on the field with his teammates. His fellow players have applaued his work ethic for years now.

Injuries happen....its a part of the game. For some players, they happen more often. It is what it is. That's doesn't mean he's not working hard because he gets nicked every now and then. Does Frank Gore have poor work ethic because he get injured during the season every year? Does he not 'work hard enough' during the off-season because he misses regular season games every now and then? Maybe he's faking injuries too. Now of course, youe going to reply with something along the lines of well why is Crabtree injured every year beore the season?. I have no answer to that but I'm not going to speculate that its because he isnt working hard or because he's faking injuries. Those claims would be unfounded and unsubstianated. But you seem to have no problem doing the excat opposite. But because I call you on it, I must be mad right?

LOL. I grave dug this one up for you, specifically. First it was a Darrius Heyward-Bey thread and a bunch of SF homers came in here tooting the Crabman horn. Then when I voiced my opinion on Crabtree and that I'm glad we got DHB over the Crabman because he at least WORKS, you got insulted. Hell...my opinion wasn't even out there since 90% of the media agrees with me now and many have been insinuating that he's just lazy. I've seen and know many SF fans comment that he's a diva. You ended up constantly insulting me and that is why I have to bring it back up and laugh in your face. Now that I'm right, you're just angry and making sarcastic remarks like your reply a couple posts above.

I'm not saying he doesn't work hard because he gets nicked now and then...I've said in every post of mine that they could be REAL injuries and I could be wrong, but the timing and coincidence of EVERY injury has been perfect for him to sit out of training camp and not play any preseason games, yet he's always ready for the first game of the regular season. They could be real...but it makes me and many others skeptical. I'm fine with you believing that they're real injuries, I couldn't care less because they don't affect my favorite team or my fantasy teams...hell SF isn't even in the AFC so I really couldn't care less. You're the one that immediately moves to insult me when I insinuate that they're fake injuries. I'm making ONE small criticism about one player...that he's lazy, and you're acting like I'm insulting your family. Could this be a real injury? Sure, but in the end...I still called it.

Borat
08-04-2012, 07:32 PM
When you get up in the morning, do you put on your clown make-up before your big red nose, or the other way around?

VAfy-ya
08-04-2012, 11:53 PM
When you get up in the morning, do you put on your clown make-up before your big red nose, or the other way around?

I mean seriously....he posted a link to a article about Manningham's addition to the WR corps, so automatically that must mean he's been a god-sent. Doesn't even realize that Kyle Williams, Moss, and Palmer have been the most impressive WRs thus far in camp, NOT Manningham. Like I said, he's trying to hard. Sad really....must be boring over there at Raider camp.

VAfy-ya
08-05-2012, 12:00 AM
http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/Mario-Manningham-Fits-Right-In/17ca2535-9b3a-45c8-8fb8-fea967f911cc

Man...I'm on fire this week.



LOL. I grave dug this one up for you, specifically. First it was a Darrius Heyward-Bey thread and a bunch of SF homers came in here tooting the Crabman horn. Then when I voiced my opinion on Crabtree and that I'm glad we got DHB over the Crabman because he at least WORKS, you got insulted. Hell...my opinion wasn't even out there since 90% of the media agrees with me now and many have been insinuating that he's just lazy. I've seen and know many SF fans comment that he's a diva. You ended up constantly insulting me and that is why I have to bring it back up and laugh in your face. Now that I'm right, you're just angry and making sarcastic remarks like your reply a couple posts above.

I'm not saying he doesn't work hard because he gets nicked now and then...I've said in every post of mine that they could be REAL injuries and I could be wrong, but the timing and coincidence of EVERY injury has been perfect for him to sit out of training camp and not play any preseason games, yet he's always ready for the first game of the regular season. They could be real...but it makes me and many others skeptical. I'm fine with you believing that they're real injuries, I couldn't care less because they don't affect my favorite team or my fantasy teams...hell SF isn't even in the AFC so I really couldn't care less. You're the one that immediately moves to insult me when I insinuate that they're fake injuries. I'm making ONE small criticism about one player...that he's lazy, and you're acting like I'm insulting your family. Could this be a real injury? Sure, but in the end...I still called it.

So he went from "no work ehtic" to being a diva. Which one is it? How did I insult you again? Oh that's right.....I disagreed with you, my bad. From now on when fans speculate on player's faking injuries, I'll won't dare mention that they should have some sort of proof because that is serious allegations, not just a mere "small criticism". Anything else I'm missing? Don't want to miss any of the knowledge you droppin on us Niner fans.

dolphinfan2k5
08-05-2012, 12:21 AM
ITT: Rage!!!

whatadai
08-05-2012, 12:33 AM
I mean seriously....he posted a link to a article about Manningham's addition to the WR corps, so automatically that must mean he's been a god-sent. Doesn't even realize that Kyle Williams, Moss, and Palmer have been the most impressive WRs thus far in camp, NOT Manningham. Like I said, he's trying to hard. Sad really....must be boring over there at Raider camp.

Nice job ignoring all the things other players said about him.

So he went from "no work ehtic" to being a diva. Which one is it? How did I insult you again? Oh that's right.....I disagreed with you, my bad. From now on when fans speculate on player's faking injuries, I'll won't dare mention that they should have some sort of proof because that is serious allegations, not just a mere "small criticism". Anything else I'm missing? Don't want to miss any of the knowledge you droppin on us Niner fans.
Since when were having no work ethic and being a diva, mutually exclusive? I didn't insult you for disagreeing with me, you insulted me for having an opinion that you didn't agree with...so I don't get the "my bad" when I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. I don't need proof for my opinion...and criticisms can be opinions...I've always said it was an OPINION and I could be wrong and it could be a real injury, so stop getting so damn butthurt. All I'm saying is I said the guy will get "injured" in the off-season and won't practice and I was right. Fine, it's a real injury, but I still called it. There...I agreed with you. Happy now?