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View Full Version : Can Matt Cassel take KC far ala Alex Smith in 2011?


KCStud
05-20-2012, 01:56 AM
IMO KC is the equivalent of the 49ers in the AFC. Really strong overall team with a game manager at QB. Cassel and Smith are so much alike to me, but Smith took a big step last year.

KC ranked 11th overall in defense last year without Eric Berry, so I think KC will be in the top 10 with him and Poe (I don't think he'll light it up, but he won't make us not top 10).

KC has arguably the best 1-2 punch in the NFL at RB with Charles and Hillis. Bowe, Breaston, Baldwin (who showed flashes or awesome potential last year) and Moeaki coming back should help him out. Winston is an elite RT so that'll help too.

I just don't see how a QB can't succeed with that much talent surrounding you. Alex Smith benefited from that talent and the coaching.

I guess my question is..do you guys think Matt Cassel could do the same thing Alex Smith did and get KC in the playoffs and win them a game or two this year?

Ness
05-20-2012, 04:36 AM
The 49ers had a dominating defense last season. That is the main reason they were in the playoffs. That combined with an average to decent run game. Alex Smith had some moments of greatness, but during the majority of the duration of games, he wasn't spectacular. But really, it was the defense and turnovers.

As for the Chiefs, I don't watch them that closely, but didn't Eric Berry suffer a torn ACL? There is no guarantee that he comes back to full form in his first year back from recovery. Poe is a rookie and an unknown factor at this point. I'm guessing he helps the Chiefs though.

And I disagree about Jamal Charles (also coming back from an ACL injury) and Peyton Hillis (also coming back from injury) making arguably the best 1-2 punch in the NFL. Hillis didn't play well at all last season and who knows how Charles will fare.

And Cassel...well, he had a good season two years ago, but he strikes me as the kind of guy that really needs to have a lot of talent around him to succeed. At least at this point in time. So perhaps Alex and him have that in common, but there is a new head coach in town, and Haley isn't running the offense anymore. Not to mention Denver now has Peyton Manning, and I wouldn't expect the Chargers to slouch as bad as they did last year. The Chiefs schedule looks pretty hard as well.

San Diego Chicken
05-20-2012, 05:29 AM
It's only May and I'm already sick of the Chiefs hype. KC doesn't have three players on defense as good as Justin Smith, Patrick Willis and NaVorro Bowman.

fenikz
05-20-2012, 07:18 AM
I would argue that KC is a better team talent wise and one of the best in the league, if Charles is 90% healthy and Hillis is somewhat productive Cassel should be able to take advantage of plenty of 1 on 1 coverage, plus the defense is pretty much set 5-10 years

SuperPacker
05-20-2012, 08:24 AM
Please, i started the Chiefs Bandwagon months ago.

Splat
05-20-2012, 08:59 AM
It's only May and I'm already sick of the Chiefs hype.

What hype?

Pretty much everyone has all ready gave the Div to Peyton Manning.

General Zod
05-20-2012, 09:07 AM
With a new coach(a better coach imo) and everyone healthy, Im anxious to see how KC does.

phlysac
05-20-2012, 09:25 AM
I would argue that KC is a better team talent wise

Please do.

I see alot of similarities. 49ers had "talent" under Singletary. Put it together is a different story.

tjsunstein
05-20-2012, 09:25 AM
Lol a Chargers fan sick of the KC hype. Color me shocked.

The Chiefs are going to be damn good, but Cassel will limit them. I would say their ceiling is one playoff win.

Roddoliver
05-20-2012, 09:25 AM
The Chiefs had the 26th pass defense last season. Eric Berry made a lot of mistakes as a rookie. Who will be the other S? They lost Brandon Carr. Stanford Routt is a questionable replacement. Peyton Manning and Philip Rivers in the division. The Chiefs might have the worst starting QB in the AFC West. The NFC West did not have any decent QB to challenge the 49ers for the division title in 2011. Alex Smith was the best QB in his division last season. I doubt Matt Cassel will play better than Peyton Manning and Philip Rivers. If your team does not have the best QB in the division, and not even the 2nd best, it won't be easy to reach the playoffs.

nepg
05-20-2012, 09:44 AM
The Chiefs had the #11 defense despite some really bad games (all but a couple were actually just the Chiefs' offense causing their defense to lose hope).

As much as I like Alex Smith, he's never had a season even close to what Cassel did in 2008 or 2010. They didn't lose to the Ravens because Cassel couldn't elevate the team, they lost because the team just wasn't good enough. In 2011, there was a whole laundry list of problems with that team. Cassel does have to put up a big season and really prove himself in 2012. He has the ability, he acts the part of the leader of the team, and now he has a competent OC, protection, and weapons. He hasn't had those three things going for him before.

Matthew Jones
05-20-2012, 09:54 AM
It's only May and I'm already sick of the Chiefs hype. KC doesn't have three players on defense as good as Justin Smith, Patrick Willis and NaVorro Bowman.

How about Tamba Hali, Brandon Flowers, and Eric Berry?

Razor
05-20-2012, 10:00 AM
I think that if you surround Matt Cassell with enough talent whether it's on defense or offense he'll take you to the playoffs. He showed that in 2008 and 2010. He's a capable quarterback, but if you're asking him to carry a team you're just asking to fail miserably. KC has a lot of talent on both sides of the ball but most of it is just, well... Talent. Crennel will take care of that defense but I worry about the offense. Bowe is a stud but is inconsistent. Baldwin has a ton of potential but is also inconsistent and only showed small flashes in his rookie year. Charles is arguably the most dynamic runner in the NFL when healthy, but I wouldn't count on him being the same player that he was just one year removed from that injury. I could see KC winning the division or clinching a WC but that has more to do with their schedule than their team. They have lots of potential, but I'm not sure that the ability is there yet.

SuperPacker
05-20-2012, 10:07 AM
QB - Chiefs
RB - Chiefs
WR - Chiefs
TE - 49ers
OL - 49ers

DL - 49ers
LB - 49ers
CB - Chiefs
S - Chiefs

Both teams are very talented. Chiefs probably have a better defense, 49ers have a better defense. I like both teams to get far into the playoffs however.

bearfan
05-20-2012, 10:35 AM
Only this will take the chiefs to the next level

http://emilsina.blogmentions.com/uploads/ricky_stanzi_sm_873.jpg

vidae
05-20-2012, 10:56 AM
Denver is the most hyped team in history, and it's hilarious that a Chargers fan is sick of hype.. there was a stretch where you couldn't watch NFLN or ESPN without someone giving Rivers or the Chargers a handie.

As far as the Chiefs, I'm not sure. Our success will largely depend on how Berry, Moeaki, and Charles come back from injury. If they're healthy we could be a dangerous team.

I'm just not sure that Cassel is going to take us on a deep playoff run.

OSUGiants17
05-20-2012, 11:06 AM
Chiefs hype? Does such a thing exist? I thing the only time they got hype from the media was when Larry Johnson broke out. The Chiefs are extreme underdogs due to Rivers being the most overrated QB in the past decade, the Chargers being over-hyped every year only to fail, and now Denver went from questionable 8-10 win team to ZOMG Peyton Manningzzzzzzzzzz Championshipzzzzz! Denver is unbeatable! O wait, they have no real offense around Peyton and he is now older and coming off injury, but the media still will bend over for Peyton and Denver.

The Chiefs are a very talented team and it all comes down to how well Cassell plays. Romeo wants his own guy, so unless he can make Matt that this year, Cassell will be gone next year and replaced by a rookie.

Rosebud
05-20-2012, 11:14 AM
Chiefs hype? Does such a thing exist? I thing the only time they got hype from the media was when Larry Johnson broke out. The Chiefs are extreme underdogs due to Rivers being the most overrated QB in the past decade, the Chargers being over-hyped every year only to fail, and now Denver went from questionable 8-10 win team to ZOMG Peyton Manningzzzzzzzzzz Championshipzzzzz! Denver is unbeatable! O wait, they have no real offense around Peyton and he is now older and coming off injury, but the media still will bend over for Peyton and Denver.

The Chiefs are a very talented team and it all comes down to how well Cassell plays. Romeo wants his own guy, so unless he can make Matt that this year, Cassell will be gone next year and replaced by a rookie.

Easy there buddy, Denver has a good OL and WRs. If Peyton can play that'll be an excellent offense.

broncosfan
05-20-2012, 11:15 AM
What hype?

Pretty much everyone has all ready gave the Div to Peyton Manning.

No, you're wrong. They're giving the division to the team that actually WON it last year. That team aka the Denver Broncos, return with all of their key players and now have replaced (in the words of many people in this forum) the worst ever starting qb in the NFL Tim Tebow with 1st ballot HoF Peyton Manning. So no my friend, they're not giving the division to Peyton Manning.

Rosebud
05-20-2012, 11:17 AM
No, you're wrong. They're giving the division to the team that actually WON it last year. That team aka the Denver Broncos, return with all of their key players and now have replaced (in the words of many people in this forum) the worst ever starting qb in the NFL Tim Tebow with 1st ballot HoF Peyton Manning. So no my friend, they're not giving the division to Peyton Manning.

...I don't even...

broncosfan
05-20-2012, 11:22 AM
...I don't even...

I don't get it.

OSUGiants17
05-20-2012, 11:25 AM
Easy there buddy, Denver has a good OL and WRs. If Peyton can play that'll be an excellent offense.

There O-Line is good yes, but Thomas and Decker are nothing special and they lost Royal. I like Thomas, but him and Decker are just average receivers right now. Hopefully for Denver fans, Peyton can make them great, but I don't see Decker breaking out. Thomas has the potential to, but he needs Peyton to be the old Peyton.

broncosfan
05-20-2012, 11:31 AM
There O-Line is good yes, but Thomas and Decker are nothing special and they lost Royal. I like Thomas, but him and Decker are just average receivers right now. Hopefully for Denver fans, Peyton can make them great, but I don't see Decker breaking out. Thomas has the potential to, but he needs Peyton to be the old Peyton.

Losing Eddie Royal as a WR is irrelevant, he's not good at all.

Brothgar
05-20-2012, 11:39 AM
No, you're wrong. They're giving the division to the team that actually WON it last year. That team aka the Denver Broncos, return with all of their key players and now have replaced (in the words of many people in this forum) the worst ever starting qb in the NFL Tim Tebow with 1st ballot HoF Peyton Manning. So no my friend, they're not giving the division to Peyton Manning.

But TEBOW JUST WINZ GAIMEZZZ YOU NO HAVE TEBOW YOU NO WINZ GAMEZZ

broncosfan
05-20-2012, 11:49 AM
Iīm not a homer, it happened, it's a fact. The Broncos won the division last year, won a playoff game and now return this year with an improvement at the QB position.

Iīm not saying the Broncos are the best team ever and will definitely win the Super Bowl this year, my point is that it's not a stretch to say they are the favorites to win the division again.

tjsunstein
05-20-2012, 11:50 AM
There O-Line is good yes, but Thomas and Decker are nothing special and they lost Royal. I like Thomas, but him and Decker are just average receivers right now. Hopefully for Denver fans, Peyton can make them great, but I don't see Decker breaking out. Thomas has the potential to, but he needs Peyton to be the old Peyton.

I thought Decker played really well and he can only look better with Peyton at the helm.

vidae
05-20-2012, 12:08 PM
Lets be real, the Broncos won a very tight division race.. three teams were at 8-8 and the Chiefs were 7-9. They had an ok draft, but not one you'd consider a slam dunk and their best WR is Eric Decker. They're not some offensive powerhouse.

And yes, Peyton is a first ballot HoFer, but he hasn't played in over a year and has had surgery recently. If this were any other player people would temper expectations but since it's Peyton it's omg super bowlz timezzz.

At this point the only thing the Broncos can do is be underwhelming. Everyone is picking them to dominate the AFC West and make a deep playoff run and I just don't see it happening.

phlysac
05-20-2012, 12:10 PM
QB - Chiefs
RB - Chiefs
WR - Chiefs
TE - 49ers
OL - 49ers

DL - 49ers
LB - 49ers
CB - Chiefs
S - Chiefs

Both teams are very talented. Chiefs probably have a better defense, 49ers have a better defense. I like both teams to get far into the playoffs however.

I agree that both teams are stacked on paper.

I'm hoping this season will bring more respect to the 49ers secondary. Yardage numbers take away from how well I feel that unit plays.

vidae
05-20-2012, 12:11 PM
I grew up in Northern California and most of my family there are still huge 49er fans, so I tend to watch a lot of their games, and that secondary does get **** on far too often by media/fans. It's a good unit. They're not GREAT, but they're definitely good enough. I don't see a defensive weakness on that team to be honest.

broncosfan
05-20-2012, 12:26 PM
The division is up for grabs and it will be a close battle for it. I hope the AFC West becomes a power house again, I'm sick and tired of an 8-8, 9-7 or whatever division champion.

A Perfect Score
05-20-2012, 12:33 PM
Over the past three years, the Chiefs have routinely drafted prospects that I love (outside Jon Baldwin...I ******* hated him as a prospect). The amount of talent they have stacked on that team is absolutely ridiculous. They have three Top 11 picks starting along the defensive line in Dorsey, Jackson and Poe, they have a very solid LB core with Hali and DJ as stalworts, and Flowers and Berry are both incredible young defensive backs. Not to mention, there's a ton of undeveloped talent like Allen Bailey, Justin Houston and others stashed in the depth of that defense.

Wouldn't shock me at all to see that become one of the NFL's elite units with RC in charge. IMO, KC should win that division and I wouldn't be shocked to see a playoff victory.

nepg
05-20-2012, 12:47 PM
I mean, that defense was already pretty close to the very elite of the NFL with Jon McGraw and Sabby Piscitelli out there at S (don't get me wrong, I really like McGraw) and very little depth. They're now deep, more athletic, more talented, and more confident. How good that defense is going to be is severely underplayed.

bigbluedefense
05-20-2012, 01:14 PM
I like KC a lot. I think they're stacked with talent. The problem is, Matt Cassell is just so terrible. If they get 2009 Matt Cassell who can manage the game, then watch out. But if not, then uhhh...they're not going anywhere.

I honestly think that the AFC West puts 2 teams in the playoffs this year. I think the Broncos are a lock, bc let's face it, it's Peyton Manning.

The 2nd team will be a race btw KC and SD. KC has a lot more overall talent, but SD has Philip Rivers. So it will be interesting to see how that shapes up.

Splat
05-20-2012, 01:15 PM
No, you're wrong. They're giving the division to the team that actually WON it last year. That team aka the Denver Broncos, return with all of their key players and now have replaced (in the words of many people in this forum) the worst ever starting qb in the NFL Tim Tebow with 1st ballot HoF Peyton Manning. So no my friend, they're not giving the division to Peyton Manning.

So, you are saying they would still be the favorites if they didn't have Peyton Manning?

I'm pretty sure everyone would be giving SD the edge (like always) if Denver didn't have Peyton Manning.

vidae
05-20-2012, 01:20 PM
So, you are saying they would still be the favorites if they didn't have Peyton Manning?

I'm pretty sure everyone would be giving SD the edge (like always) if Denver didn't have Peyton Manning.

What he said. The Chiefs went 10-6 and were predicted to finish 3rd in 2011. They were wrong though, cuz we finished 4th! Ha, take that!

Winning a division title doesn't mean you're the favorites to win it the next year.

Abaddon
05-20-2012, 01:29 PM
IMO KC is the equivalent of the 49ers in the AFC.

I stopped reading at this point.

vidae
05-20-2012, 01:32 PM
I stopped reading at this point.

Thank you for your wonderful contribution to this thread. I'm sure that absolutely needed to be said and everyone is glad you were the man for the job.

To be honest I'm surprised a Raiders fan could even read that much.

Come at me.

Splat
05-20-2012, 01:34 PM
49ers fans have been acting like their team is the greatest thing since sliced bread all offseason.

bigbluedefense
05-20-2012, 01:34 PM
The Giants are pretty good

*leaves thread*

SuperPacker
05-20-2012, 01:37 PM
The Giants are pretty good

*leaves thread*

When i clicked on the thread seeing you had posted, i thought i was going to post "BBD has spoken. /thread", but you have to go all troll on us don't you?!

villagewarrior
05-20-2012, 01:38 PM
Iīm not a homer, it happened, it's a fact. The Broncos won the division last year, won a playoff game and now return this year with an improvement at the QB position.

Iīm not saying the Broncos are the best team ever and will definitely win the Super Bowl this year, my point is that it's not a stretch to say they are the favorites to win the division again.

Its pretty stretchy, I'd say. They replaced a young, sturdy QB with a winning record with an old, historically great QB coming off multiple neck surgeries. And Denver backed into the playoffs last year after losing to the Chiefs in Week 17. Assuming the Chiefs don't get raped by the injury bug again, I think they will beat Denver twice end route to an AFC West title. They will then lose in the 1st round unless their offensive line and defense take dramatic steps forward.

Splat
05-20-2012, 01:39 PM
It's not trolling when your team actually won the SB.

bigbluedefense
05-20-2012, 01:40 PM
When i clicked on the thread seeing you had posted, i thought i was going to post "BBD has spoken. /thread", but you have to go all troll on us don't you?!

I had a decent post before that. I'll leave my trolling for basketball.

Abaddon
05-20-2012, 01:48 PM
Thank you for your wonderful contribution to this thread. I'm sure that absolutely needed to be said and everyone is glad you were the man for the job.

To be honest I'm surprised a Raiders fan could even read that much.

Come at me.

If you're really entertaining that comparison, by all means, have fun. It's May. Everyone is a little delusional this time of year.

broncosfan
05-20-2012, 01:54 PM
So, you are saying they would still be the favorites if they didn't have Peyton Manning?

I'm pretty sure everyone would be giving SD the edge (like always) if Denver didn't have Peyton Manning.


Winning a division title doesn't mean you're the favorites to win it the next year.

Teams who have the best QB in their division are usually considered favorites. That's why the Chargers have been considered the favorites to win the division for the last 5 or 6 years.

SuperPacker
05-20-2012, 02:03 PM
I had a decent post before that. I'll leave my trolling for basketball.

You're right, i didn't see that.

BBD has spoken. /thread

Splat
05-20-2012, 02:12 PM
Teams who have the best QB in their division are usually considered favorites. That's why the Chargers have been considered the favorites to win the division for the last 5 or 6 years.

Which is why I said people are giving the Div to Peyton Manning.

You are the one acting like people are picking them because they won the Div last year.

cmarq83
05-20-2012, 03:10 PM
I don't really see why the Broncos should be favored over the Chiefs or anybody in the AFC West for that matter at the moment. A few months ago we weren't even sure if Peyton Manning would ever play again, and even when he was playing in 2010 he wasn't his usual dominant self. He had a little less zip on his throws, and without some of his longtime targets he looked a little off. I think some people expect now that Peyton is on a team with a little more talent to revert back to 2005 Peyton and start making a run at the record books again. So much of what Peyton does is dependent on timing and cohesion with his receivers, and being able to press the ball into tight spaces on seam routes and comeback routes. I'm not entirely sure if he'll be able to do that in a game setting again with all the injuries and new faces he has to deal with.

That defense needs a lot of work too. For a brief period of time they were dominant, but they were exposed badly pretty much any time they faced an explosive offense too. Detroit, New England, and Green Bay absolutely went off on them. Their defense doesn't excel in a lot of areas outside of Doom and Miller either.

Plus the fact that they have to face New England and Houston where a team like KC has to face Miami and Indianapolis doesn't help either.

Nobody in the division is a slam dunk, but unless Peyton comes back and is Peyton circa 3 years ago, I don't see how Denver is a better team than the rest of the division.

KCStud
05-20-2012, 03:54 PM
Broncos OL is very suspect IMO. Last year Clady gave up 9 sacks and 12 penalties. He's been average since his rookie year.

Franklin struggled last year, especially against speed rushers. Walton also struggled more often than not.

I think you'll see Peyton struggling against the pressure with his OL.

bigbluedefense
05-20-2012, 04:03 PM
Peyton has played behind worse OLs than the one Denver has. Hell, Peyton has played on worse teams than Denver has. The guy is money, he'll get that team to the playoffs as long as he's healthy.

Even if his arm suffers a little, which all indications say is not the case, his ability to get the ball out quick and accurately more than makes up for it.

If you think about it, the Broncos are a lot like the old Colts:

1. On defense they have 2 edge rushers who can hunt, and the rest of the unit is mediocre/average.

2. On offense, they have a great #1 WR (Thomas/Wayne), a solid TE (Tamme/Tamme), a solid #2 WR (Decker/Garcon), mediocre running backs (McGahee/Addai), and avg OL.

The broncos are basically the Peyton Manning Colts. As long as Peyton is healthy, they'll win 10 games.

vidae
05-20-2012, 04:04 PM
So now Thomas is a great WR? Really? :njx:

Brothgar
05-20-2012, 04:05 PM
Broncos OL is very suspect IMO. Last year Clady gave up 9 sacks and 12 penalties. He's been average since his rookie year.

Franklin struggled last year, especially against speed rushers. Walton also struggled more often than not.

I think you'll see Peyton struggling against the pressure with his OL.

That has a lot to do with the QB though. Tebow held the ball alot and that cod awful throwing motion. Any O-Line would have an inordinate amount of sacks. I honestly think this is the best O-Line that Peyton Manning has worked with.

bigbluedefense
05-20-2012, 04:06 PM
So now Thomas/Decker are great WRs? Really? :njx:

Yes. Yes they are. They have great ability, they just had Tim Tebow and Kyle Orton throwing them the ball.

Both of them will have great seasons this year. Thomas has a ton of potential, and Decker is a very solid WR who gets open. Both were open a lot last year but just couldn't get the ball.

BoneKrusher
05-20-2012, 04:10 PM
Can Matt Cassel take KC far ala Alex Smith in 2011?

NO'
the Chiefs haven't won a playoff game since 93.

vidae
05-20-2012, 04:12 PM
Yes. Yes they are. They have great ability, they just had Tim Tebow and Kyle Orton throwing them the ball.

Both of them will have great seasons this year. Thomas has a ton of potential, and Decker is a very solid WR who gets open. Both were open a lot last year but just couldn't get the ball.

Give me a break BBD. Great ability != great players. A lot of players have great ability.

And they were open because Tebow ran around for 20 seconds every goddamn play. It's hard to ask a corner or safety to follow someone that long. With a more traditional offense they'll be "open" a lot less.

bigbluedefense
05-20-2012, 04:17 PM
Give me a break BBD. Great ability != great players. A lot of players have great ability.

And they were open because Tebow ran around for 20 seconds every goddamn play. It's hard to ask a corner or safety to follow someone that long. With a more traditional offense they'll be "open" a lot less.

You're in denial if you don't think that these guys will put up better numbers with Peyton Manning. Thomas came into his own at the end of last season, he just needed a qb who can get him the ball.

Thomas was a developmental guy coming in. His injuries coupled with learning the pro system coupled with Tebow made his development slower than expected. But now with Peyton, watch out.

And Decker has always been a scrappy guy who gets open. But Tebow sucks.

Come on vidae, don't be in denial. They'll have a good passing game as long as Peyton is healthy.

Splat
05-20-2012, 04:24 PM
I actually think Thomas is going to be a pretty good WR if he can stay on the field.

vidae
05-20-2012, 04:25 PM
I never denied they'd have a good passing game. It's almost a given with Peyton. I'm saying that you have to prove you're a great player before you're called a great player. Neither of those guys have proven anything yet.

ChiefMojo
05-20-2012, 04:28 PM
Imo the Chiefs are a Super Bowl team already if it weren't for Matt Cassel. Sure there are concerns from many how some of KC's studs come back from injury but from the sound of it all three are ahead of schedule in their rehab.

Both sides of the ball is stacked with a lot of young weapons and they will only continue to improve as the years go by. This KC team outside of QB (I think Stanzi should get a shot) is built for a long term success and not just a flash in the pan.

RaiderNation
05-20-2012, 04:45 PM
I've been saying all off season long KC has a potential playoff caliber team, but not with Cassel as the starting QB. The AFC West is now stacked with QB's with Manning, Rivers and Palmer and Cassel is by far 4th behind those 3. The NFL is a QB driven league and I have a hard time seeing Cassel taking down those 3 QB's who all have had major success at times in their careers.

Their defense is strong, but not near the level the 49ers last year where they were able to lift Alex Smith into the playoffs. Jamall Charles is the big factor in KC, just like McFadden in Oakland. If one of those 2 can stay healthy for most the season their team has a real shot at winning the division. If not Denver or San Diego should be the winners.

vidae
05-20-2012, 04:49 PM
Sorry but I wouldn't put Palmer in the same universe with Rivers and Peyton. If you want to talk about the AFC West as a stacked QB division it ends after those two guys.

whatadai
05-20-2012, 04:52 PM
And they were open because Tebow ran around for 20 seconds every goddamn play. It's hard to ask a corner or safety to follow someone that long. With a more traditional offense they'll be "open" a lot less.

So you're saying Tebow made Decker and Thomas look better than they are? Not the other way around? LOLOLOLOLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Splat
05-20-2012, 04:53 PM
I've been saying all off season long KC has a potential playoff caliber team, but not with Cassel as the starting QB. The AFC West is now stacked with QB's with Manning, Rivers and Palmer and Cassel is by far 4th behind those 3. The NFL is a QB driven league and I have a hard time seeing Cassel taking down those 3 QB's who all have had major success at times in their careers.

Did I miss something? When did Carson Palmer become good again?

He hasn't been worth a dam since 2009.

The AFC West isn't stacked at QB...

phlysac
05-20-2012, 05:45 PM
49ers fans have been acting like their team is the greatest thing since sliced bread all offseason.

Generalization much?

KCStud
05-20-2012, 05:50 PM
That has a lot to do with the QB though. Tebow held the ball alot and that cod awful throwing motion. Any O-Line would have an inordinate amount of sacks. I honestly think this is the best O-Line that Peyton Manning has worked with.

Not so sure about that. Clady gave up 7 sacks and even more penalties in 2010 with Orton.

KCStud
05-20-2012, 06:02 PM
I've been saying all off season long KC has a potential playoff caliber team, but not with Cassel as the starting QB. The AFC West is now stacked with QB's with Manning, Rivers and Palmer and Cassel is by far 4th behind those 3. The NFL is a QB driven league and I have a hard time seeing Cassel taking down those 3 QB's who all have had major success at times in their careers.

Their defense is strong, but not near the level the 49ers last year where they were able to lift Alex Smith into the playoffs. Jamall Charles is the big factor in KC, just like McFadden in Oakland. If one of those 2 can stay healthy for most the season their team has a real shot at winning the division. If not Denver or San Diego should be the winners.

And if Cassel has a year like 2010? He does and KC wins the division. It's all about protection, which Cassel didn't have last year.

Barry Richardson was the worst OT in pass pro last year according to PFF. Leonard Pope, Anthony Becht and Jake O'Connell couldn't block either. They were all terrible.

Getting an elite RT in Eric Winston, a good blocking TE in Kevin Boss, and getting another key blocker in Tony Moeaki really helps Cassel, along with Donald Stephenson and Jeff Allen.
I also fully expect Branden Albert to be a very good LT this year because it's his contract year.

As long as the blocking is there, Charles, Hillis or Gray (who I really liked as a prospect) are gonna help.

The weapons are there for Cassel. The blocking will be key.

Brent
05-20-2012, 06:28 PM
49ers fans have been acting like their team is the greatest thing since sliced bread all offseason.
where did that happen? I don't recall acting that way.

San Diego Chicken
05-20-2012, 06:56 PM
What hype?

Pretty much everyone has all ready gave the Div to Peyton Manning.

That annoys me too.

vidae
05-20-2012, 07:54 PM
where did that happen? I don't recall acting that way.

It wasn't you.

farfromforgotten
05-20-2012, 09:04 PM
I never denied they'd have a good passing game. It's almost a given with Peyton. I'm saying that you have to prove you're a great player before you're called a great player. Neither of those guys have proven anything yet.

Well, this is the same guy that said DHB has been "great" so far during his career with Oakland, so he might have a different definition of the word "great" than the rest of us. With that small jab out of the way... I'm fans of both Thomas and Decker and think they'll do well with whoever the QB is in the present/future.

Sure KC has the ability to make it to the playoffs this year. The AFC West will be a fun division to keep an eye on. Its going to come down to health. Easy enough to say. I think it comes down to DEN or KC. I gave up on SD a long time ago. I also found it amusing that the SD fan was already so tired of hearing the KC hype in this thread. SD was overhyped for a good decade almost. (Not so much on these boards, really with the "experts") It was sickening. I would like to see OAK become relevant again in the NFL. I think they're headed in the right direction, maybe a few years away still, though.

Ness
05-20-2012, 09:59 PM
Over the past three years, the Chiefs have routinely drafted prospects that I love (outside Jon Baldwin...I ******* hated him as a prospect). The amount of talent they have stacked on that team is absolutely ridiculous. They have three Top 11 picks starting along the defensive line in Dorsey, Jackson and Poe, they have a very solid LB core with Hali and DJ as stalworts, and Flowers and Berry are both incredible young defensive backs. Not to mention, there's a ton of undeveloped talent like Allen Bailey, Justin Houston and others stashed in the depth of that defense.

Wouldn't shock me at all to see that become one of the NFL's elite units with RC in charge. IMO, KC should win that division and I wouldn't be shocked to see a playoff victory.

I don't think they are really going to really be much of a threat year in and year out and winning any playoff games until they get an established starter at QB, regardless of how much talent they have elsewhere.

Ness
05-20-2012, 10:01 PM
It's not trolling when your team actually won the SB.

Didn't folks here get mad at Packers fans for doing that very same kind of thing?

Ness
05-20-2012, 10:04 PM
where did that happen? I don't recall acting that way.

I don't think it ever happened.

VAfy-ya
05-20-2012, 10:04 PM
I would argue that KC is a better team talent wise and one of the best in the league, if Charles is 90% healthy and Hillis is somewhat productive Cassel should be able to take advantage of plenty of 1 on 1 coverage, plus the defense is pretty much set 5-10 years

Okay, let's argue.....

VernonLawson89
05-20-2012, 10:27 PM
49ers fans have been acting like their team is the greatest thing since sliced bread all offseason.

Sounds about accurate

Borat
05-20-2012, 11:35 PM
Well, you know, sliced bread is pretty damn impressive.

KCStud
05-25-2012, 01:42 AM
Okay, let's argue.....

Well let's break it down position by position.

QB-SF I'll give it to Smith since he's won playoff games.
RB-KC JC is a top 5 back and Hillis is a good player too.
OT-KC. Staley is just as good as Albert but no Davis isn't as good as Winston. Winston is an elite RT.
G-SF no question
C-SF
TE-SF no question
WR-KC. Bowe is better and more proven than all of the WR's in SF. Moss is past his prime and Bowe is in his prime right now.

DE-SF no question
DT-I'll say push it's close.
OLB-KC Tamba led AFC in sacks 2 years ago then barely lost out to Suggs. He is good for at least 12 a year. Houston will most likely get 10 this year too. He really came on in the 2nd half last year and was arguably the steal of the draft.
ILB-SF. DJ is the best ILB in the AFC (Ray Ray is too old now) and Willis is best in NFL. Bowman makes this SF's edge.
CB-KC Flowers, Routt and a bunch of quality depth.
S-KC Berry is a top 5 S and Lewis is solid himself.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-25-2012, 03:25 AM
No, I do not think Matt Cassell can engineer the same sort of effort that Alex Smith did. In my opinion, the 49ers have a much stronger team as a whole. Stronger running game. More diverse passing weapons. Stronger defense. Muuuch stronger on special teams. Stronger coaching staff.

Ness
05-25-2012, 04:56 AM
Well let's break it down position by position.

QB-SF I'll give it to Smith since he's won playoff games.
RB-KC JC is a top 5 back and Hillis is a good player too.
OT-KC. Staley is just as good as Albert but no Davis isn't as good as Winston. Winston is an elite RT.
G-SF no question
C-SF
TE-SF no question
WR-KC. Bowe is better and more proven than all of the WR's in SF. Moss is past his prime and Bowe is in his prime right now.

DE-SF no question
DT-I'll say push it's close.
OLB-KC Tamba led AFC in sacks 2 years ago then barely lost out to Suggs. He is good for at least 12 a year. Houston will most likely get 10 this year too. He really came on in the 2nd half last year and was arguably the steal of the draft.
ILB-SF. DJ is the best ILB in the AFC (Ray Ray is too old now) and Willis is best in NFL. Bowman makes this SF's edge.
CB-KC Flowers, Routt and a bunch of quality depth.
S-KC Berry is a top 5 S and Lewis is solid himself.

So Dwayne Bowe makes Kansas City's receiving corps better than everyone else on the 49ers squad combined? Who else do the Chiefs have as receivers? Breaston? Baldwin? They aren't necessarily better gamebreakers than Moss, Manningham, Crabtree, and Jenkins.

And Kansas City has better outside linebackers? Who other than Tamba Hali is a huge threat? Aldon Smith had more sacks than Hali playing part-time. And Brooks played at a Pro Bowl level last season.

And the 49ers don't have better corners? Rogers was a Pro Bowler last season. One that actually played like it. Tarrell Brown and Chris Culliver also played at a good level, especially Culiver who lined up against top receivers a good amount of the time. No one got smoked nearly all season.

Oh and as good as Eric Berry may be (he's coming back from a torn ACL) it was the Whitner and Goldson show all day last season.

Oh and special teams blows the Chiefs out of the water.

descendency
05-25-2012, 05:34 AM
I think the Chiefs will benefit from their last place schedule, but I can't see them being a top 5 team in the NFL.

VAfy-ya
05-25-2012, 06:11 AM
Well let's break it down position by position.

QB-SF I'll give it to Smith since he's won playoff games.
RB-KC JC is a top 5 back and Hillis is a good player too.
OT-KC. Staley is just as good as Albert but no Davis isn't as good as Winston. Winston is an elite RT.
G-SF no question
C-SF
TE-SF no question
WR-KC. Bowe is better and more proven than all of the WR's in SF. Moss is past his prime and Bowe is in his prime right now.

DE-SF no question
DT-I'll say push it's close.
OLB-KC Tamba led AFC in sacks 2 years ago then barely lost out to Suggs. He is good for at least 12 a year. Houston will most likely get 10 this year too. He really came on in the 2nd half last year and was arguably the steal of the draft.
ILB-SF. DJ is the best ILB in the AFC (Ray Ray is too old now) and Willis is best in NFL. Bowman makes this SF's edge.
CB-KC Flowers, Routt and a bunch of quality depth.
S-KC Berry is a top 5 S and Lewis is solid himself.

WR - From top to bottom, I think the Niner have the edge. No doubt Bowe is the best of the bunch but our 2nd and 3rd WRs will be Crabs and MM. To me, that is better than your 2nd and 3rd WR. And I really like Baldwin for the record. Bowe may be better than Moss but our #2 and #3 gives us a slight edge, if not makes it even.

OLB - I would say Hali and All-Done are about even. If he is good for at least 12 I would argue the same for Smith as at starter. I dont see how you could give the edge at LOLB to a Houston when he and Brooks had very similar numbers. Houston had 5 more tackles, Brooks had 1.5 more sacks. Haralson as a third rotational guy should give us the edge but I'll call it a wash.

CB - If you still had Carr, I'd surely give you the edge. Routt? Not even. Tarell Brown in his first year as a starter in Fangio scheme put up impressive numbers. Pro Bowl consideration numbers. I would expect his play to improve with another year in the scheme. And I would argue Cully is better than Arenas as the nickelback. I'll call Rogers and Flowers a wash.

S - If Berry is considsred top 5, so should Goldson. If were going by on field production, what Goldson did in 14 games was last year was impressive. No doubt about Berry's ability but Goldson gets overlooked. He's had two very good years sandwiched between a very medicore 2010 season when he played hurt most of the year and lost some of his mobility because of it. Its closer than most ppl think. Lewis and Whitner are a wash. I think Whitner is severly underated. His numbers dont really do justice to his impact on our defense. He's the main reason both Goldson and Rogers thrived last year on the back end. Goldson could finally go out and ball-hawk instead of trying to cover for the lack range guys like Taylor Mays, Michael Lewis, and Reggie Smith lacked at SS. And Whitner's ability to cover the deep half made it so that Rogers could be aggressive on the underneath routes and make plays on the ball.

papa burgundy
05-25-2012, 06:24 AM
So Dwayne Bowe makes Kansas City's receiving corps better than everyone else on the 49ers squad combined? Who else do the Chiefs have as receivers? Breaston? Baldwin? They aren't necessarily better gamebreakers than Moss, Manningham, Crabtree, and Jenkins.

And Kansas City has better outside linebackers? Who other than Tamba Hali is a huge threat? Aldon Smith had more sacks than Hali playing part-time. And Brooks played at a Pro Bowl level last season.

And the 49ers don't have better corners? Rogers was a Pro Bowler last season. One that actually played like it. Tarrell Brown and Chris Culliver also played at a good level, especially Culiver who lined up against top receivers a good amount of the time. No one got smoked nearly all season.

Oh and as good as Eric Berry may be (he's coming back from a torn ACL) it was the Whitner and Goldson show all day last season.

Oh and special teams blows the Chiefs out of the water.

The Chiefs WRs are better than the 49ers. Everything besides Bowe and Moss is a complete wash to me. After that it is only as close as Moss can make it to Bowe. If he's a complete disaster then it's really not that close at all. If Moss can be that #1 guy then it would be close, but I'd still take the 27 year old who I know what I'll get with over a 35 year old guy who could shut it down at any moment.

Also Ahmad Brooks wasn't playing at a Pro-Bowl level. He's a nice player .. could even go as far as say he is a very nice player, but he was not anywhere close to playing at a Pro-Bowl level last year. That said .. I think the OLBers are closer than the WRs. Right now I'd go:

Tamba Hali
Aldon Smith
Ahmad Brooks
Justin Houston

And sure a Chief fan could say that Houston will be better than Brooks after this year, but a Niner fan could also say that Aldon will be better than Tamba after this year. So it's really a wash to me.

Brothgar
05-25-2012, 07:35 AM
I don't know why we are comparing Moss to Bowe. It doesn't make much sense in the grand scheme of the question that we have going on here. When we ask if the Chiefs can be this year's 49ers we should compare Bowe and Baldwin to Crabs and Ginn.

nepg
05-25-2012, 08:00 AM
Yeah, this Chiefs rosters is A LOT better than last year's 49ers team. More talented pretty much across the board save for 1 DE spot, 1 G spot, and TE. Better RBs, better WRs, arguably better TE group, probably a better OL, similar DL, similar LB group (unless Houston makes the jump I think he'll make), and better secondary.

Ness
05-25-2012, 11:29 AM
Also Ahmad Brooks wasn't playing at a Pro-Bowl level. He's a nice player .. could even go as far as say he is a very nice player, but he was not anywhere close to playing at a Pro-Bowl level last year. That said .. I think the OLBers are closer than the WRs. Right now I'd go:


You obviously didn't watch him play. Brooks was our best linebacker all round and yes he was playing at a Pro Bowl level last season, which is why he was actually selected as an alternate to the contest. He has the ability to be stout against the run and puts a good amount of pressure on the quarterback when he is asked to come off that edge. And he's not bad in coverage. He was an every down linebacker. It wasn't surprising he was the first priority in the offseason this year and got his deal done.

49ersfan_87
05-25-2012, 02:13 PM
QB - Chiefs
RB - Chiefs
WR - Chiefs
TE - 49ers
OL - 49ers

DL - 49ers
LB - 49ers
CB - Chiefs
S - Chiefs

Both teams are very talented. Chiefs probably have a better defense, 49ers have a better defense. I like both teams to get far into the playoffs however.

This is all fair. I'd also say the 49ers have a better ST unit (very underrated component in their wins) and most importantly...a better coaching staff. Watch out for the 49ers RB's in the near future too, but for now you can't argue that they're better than the Chiefs in that area. Jamaal Charles is a player i sorely wish the 49ers had. WR, i'd say the Chiefs are barely better right now. Bowe is the difference maker but it remains to be seen what the additions of Moss, Manningham, and Jenkins combined with Crabtree will compare to Bowe, Breaston, Baldwin, and Wylie.


49ers fans have been acting like their team is the greatest thing since sliced bread all offseason.

13-3 and OT away from the SB. That too against an opponent that won their 2 previous playoff games by a combined 39 points.

Some of the arrogance may be unwarranted, but they were damn good last year. Its not an exaggeration to say that they're a superbowl contender. Especially with a coach like Harbaugh.

stlouisfan37
05-25-2012, 05:31 PM
Well let's break it down position by position.

QB-SF I'll give it to Smith since he's won playoff games.
RB-KC JC is a top 5 back and Hillis is a good player too.
OT-KC. Staley is just as good as Albert but no Davis isn't as good as Winston. Winston is an elite RT.
G-SF no question
C-SF
TE-SF no question
WR-KC. Bowe is better and more proven than all of the WR's in SF. Moss is past his prime and Bowe is in his prime right now.

DE-SF no question
DT-I'll say push it's close.
OLB-KC Tamba led AFC in sacks 2 years ago then barely lost out to Suggs. He is good for at least 12 a year. Houston will most likely get 10 this year too. He really came on in the 2nd half last year and was arguably the steal of the draft.
ILB-SF. DJ is the best ILB in the AFC (Ray Ray is too old now) and Willis is best in NFL. Bowman makes this SF's edge.
CB-KC Flowers, Routt and a bunch of quality depth.
S-KC Berry is a top 5 S and Lewis is solid himself.

When healthy, I think that Jamaal Charles is the most electrifying back in football. That being said, he has yet to prove he has returned to his old self after his injury. I am skeptical that he will be back to his old form this season, at least early on. Guys are recovering faster and faster from knee injuries, but they rarely get back the first season. Hillis hasn't done anything in over a year.

Gore is as steady as they come, Kendall Hunter is a nice complement, and they added Brandon Jacobs, who could easily add half a dozen scores. And they drafted LaMichael James, who could add another dimension to their passing game. So I think the 49ers have a strong advantage in this area going into the season.

As far as secondaries go, Kansas City allowed less passing yards but gave up more passing TD's, so I think it's a wash.

One more thing to consider is that San Francisco is returning 11 starters on defense, which is almost unheard of in today's game.

Other than those two areas I think your analysis is pretty accurate.

FWIW, I hate the 49ers, and before all the devastating injuries KC was one of my favorite teams to watch in the last couple of years. But I still believe in giving respect where it is due.

stlouisfan37
05-25-2012, 05:34 PM
49ers fans have been acting like their team is the greatest thing since sliced bread all offseason.

They've been acting that way since 1980...

KCStud
05-25-2012, 08:59 PM
I think KC is so similar to SF.

Look at what they have in common.

-Top ten defense.
-Much improved OL.
-Dangerous weapons on the outside.
-Strong running game.

and most importantly, both teams have a QB who are almost essentially the same kind of QB. Mobile, need a good system and strong pieces to make them look better than they actually are.

Ness
05-25-2012, 10:24 PM
I think KC is so similar to SF.

Look at what they have in common.

-Top ten defense.
-Much improved OL.
-Dangerous weapons on the outside.
-Strong running game.

and most importantly, both teams have a QB who are almost essentially the same kind of QB. Mobile, need a good system and strong pieces to make them look better than they actually are.

Except one team went 7-9 and the other went 13-3.

The 49ers have a better special teams unit and were also 1st in the NFL in turnover ratio, while the Chiefs were 18th. It's more than listing players names on paper as if they had ratings in Madden. The 49ers found ways to win last season on a consistent basis. The Chiefs haven't acquired that trait yet.

They've been acting that way since 1980...

They aren't blacking out Rams games still are they?

VAfy-ya
05-25-2012, 11:43 PM
I think KC is so similar to SF.

Look at what they have in common.

-Top ten defense.
-Much improved OL.
-Dangerous weapons on the outside.
-Strong running game.

and most importantly, both teams have a QB who are almost essentially the same kind of QB. Mobile, need a good system and strong pieces to make them look better than they actually are.

True but the biggest difference and the one no one is talking about is coaching. Without Harbaugh, we're right where you are last year. Injuries play a part but we lost two starters at WR for most of the year in Josh Morgan and Braylon Edwards and still won games. Willis missed some games, so did Goldson and guys stepped up and performed. I doubt anybody but Harbaugh could have gotten that team to perform at such a high level, every week. That's just a testment to what good coaching means in this league. Most of the players that ppl are now giving props to on our team are guys who previously played in spurts, or whose play varied from game to game. But our staff put ppl in a position to be successful and sustain success. That's very hard to do in this league. Finding good players is hard to do. But finding a good HC I think is harder. And I think we lucked out and found a very good one.

That being said, its not how much do you believe in Cassel having a turnaround. Because Cassel has already proven with players around him, he can perform. The question should be how much do you believe in Crennel? Do you believe that this man and his staff can get this team to perform at a high level, week in and week out?

vidae
05-26-2012, 12:26 AM
Except one team went 7-9 and the other went 13-3.

One team lost their two best players by week two and one didn't. We can play this game all day! Fun times!

Ness
05-26-2012, 03:15 AM
One team lost their two best players by week two and one didn't. We can play this game all day! Fun times!

So if Charles and Berry, a running back and a safety, aren't on the team it's over? There is no chance of a playoff run? The 49ers had the same roster from 2010 to 2011 virtually with their same "best players", yet they weren't winning games. The coaching was a huge difference as well. Like I said, it goes beyond listing individual players names and or "talent", which we had under Singletary. The 49ers were without Patrick Willis for three contests last season and the defense didn't skip a beat at his position. Larry Grant filled in nicely for a backup. Ain't no games being played here son like you're trying to insinuate. Like VAfy-ya said, guys got hurt, but others stepped up via quality depth. It's one thing to list talent, it's another to actually put it together and produce.

FUNBUNCHER
05-26-2012, 06:03 AM
The reason why the Chiefs will be the surprise team of the NFL this season and one of the favorites to make it to the AFCG; Romeo Crennel.

Talent wise, this squad reminds me of the Pats SB teams(that won). Even better talent at some positions. Crennel is going to have that defense humming and if Baldwin really comes around in his sophomore NFL season along with Hillis re-establishing himself as one of the more dominant powerbacks in the league, the Chiefs offense is going to be formidable.

Crennel IMO knows what Cassel can and can't do well. Like Brady early in his career, it's not a winning formula expecting him to throw for 400+ yards and 3 TDs a game in order to get Ws.

KC is going to be an explosive/ball control offense and if Cassel can just be the Chiefs version of Alex Smith, move the chains, pick up first downs and hit the occasional deep ball when the play comes open, I have no problem envisioning the Chiefs winning the AFCW.

I don't know if Cassel is good enough to win a SB, but playing being a Romeo Crennel coached defense and a solid run game with two huge outside WRs to toss the ball to, Cassel is more than capable of winning a couple games in the playoffs.

San Diego Chicken
05-26-2012, 06:32 AM
Give me Smith over Cassel all day every day. He's shown upward progression as a passer after the Nolan years, so it's a solid bet that he'll improve even more. He's playing with confidence and focus finally, which was his main thing. With Cassel, who the heck knows? Too inconsistent from game to game. Remember the utter stinkbomb of a performance in the 2011 playoffs? Smith played very very well against New Orleans, and while he was merely average against the Giants he didn't lose them the game, Kyle Williams did.

FUNBUNCHER
05-26-2012, 06:49 AM
I can't give either Cassel or Alex Smith an advantage over the other. They cancel each other out.

EDIT: The Raider and SD still have good talent. Ingram and Jarret Johnson are huge pickups for the Bolts, who IMO had a hiccup last year. And I still believe Peyton Manning at 75-85% makes the Broncos a threat to beat anyone they play.

It may not be the best division in football, but the AFCW has to be one of the more competitive.

San Diego Chicken
05-26-2012, 06:52 AM
Another thing, people look at these comparisons all wrong. Having talent at S or WR isn't as important as talent in the front seven. SF has 5 legit pro bowl caliber guys in the front seven, that's pretty damn good.

San Diego Chicken
05-26-2012, 06:55 AM
I can't give either Cassel or Alex Smith an advantage over the other. They cancel each other out.

I'm giving Smith the edge going into 2012 because he is still improving and Cassel is not.

FUNBUNCHER
05-26-2012, 07:19 AM
I think Alex Smith is what he is. I don't think he's going to morph into a top 10 QB. He's steady and in the right system can be a decent signal caller, but I don't see much more upside.

I could be wrong though. Maybe Smith does have more room to improve in Harbaugh's offense, but it's not like he's going to wake up one day and be confused with Andrew Luck.

All Cassel needs to do is play well, for him, which is about 60% completions, 3500yds, 25 TDs and 12-15 INTs.

That's a dream season as of right now for Alex Smith.

phlysac
05-26-2012, 07:27 AM
All Cassel needs to do is play well, for him, which is about 60% completions, 3500yds, 25 TDs and 12-15 INTs.

That's a dream season as of right now for Alex Smith.

Cassell has one 3500 yard season. Which was in New England's pass-heavy offense. Cassell's second best season was similar in yardage to to that of Smith's last year (conservative, power-running offense.)

Why make it out to be a "dream season" for one player, and a eh, "just has to play well" for the other?

FUNBUNCHER
05-26-2012, 07:55 AM
Cassel threw for almost 3700 yards in NE. His best yardage season in KC is 3116.

I just averaged the two.

descendency
05-26-2012, 08:04 AM
DT-I'll say push it's close.

Lol. No. SF is significantly better on D.

vidae
05-26-2012, 09:52 AM
Lol. No. SF is significantly better on D.

It says DT, not D. There is a letter after the D there.

And I'm not arguing coaching, but after RAC took over the Chiefs went 2-1, with one of those victories coming against the previously undefeated Packers and the only loss being in overtime because of two blocked FGs.

I'm not taking anything away from Harbaugh, just saying that the coaching situation has been improved SIGNIFICANTLY in KC.

VAfy-ya
05-26-2012, 10:03 AM
It says DT, not D. There is a letter after the D there.

And I'm not arguing coaching, but after RAC took over the Chiefs went 2-1, with one of those victories coming against the previously undefeated Packers and the only loss being in overtime because of two blocked FGs.

I'm not taking anything away from Harbaugh, just saying that the coaching situation has been improved SIGNIFICANTLY in KC.

That remains to be seen. I mean Crennel did stink up the joint with the Browns. I'm not sure I can see a improvement over Haley other then a freah set of eyes up until this point. Can he manage the game on Sundays consistently and not get out-coached? Can he identify personel and put them in a position to succeed? Can he motivate and instill a work ethic in his team as a whole? Those were some of the issues that plagued him in Cleveland. The talent on this team though is leaps and bounds better than those Browns teams he coached so that wont be a excuse going foward. We'll see how he handles the rest.

vidae
05-26-2012, 10:10 AM
Not just RAC, but Daboll is a significant leap over Haley as far as playcalling goes (which should be obvious, since Haley was awful at it when he was here) and we fired our ST coordinator after the season too, and yeah, like you said, it was Cleveland. No offense to my Cleveland buddies here, but can anyone name the last coach that was successful there?

Splat
05-26-2012, 10:11 AM
That remains to be seen. I mean Crennel did stink up the joint with the Browns. I'm not sure I can see a improvement over Haley other then a freah set of eyes up until this point. Can he manage the game on Sundays consistently and not get out-coached? Can he identify personel and put them in a position to succeed? Can he motivate and instill a work ethic in his team as a whole? Those were some of the issues that plagued him in Cleveland. The talent on this team though is leaps and bounds better than those Browns teams he coached so that wont be a excuse going foward. We'll see how he handles the rest.

Who doesn't? It's the Browns.

phlysac
05-26-2012, 11:50 AM
Cassel threw for almost 3700 yards in NE. His best yardage season in KC is 3116.

I just averaged the two.

Since 2008, when Cassell began starting in New England...

Matt Cassell - Yards per Attempt - 6.623
Alex Smith --- Yards per Attempt - 6.785

So if Smith threw it anywhere near as much as Cassell, I guess it wouldn't be a "dream season" for him.

descendency
05-26-2012, 12:05 PM
It says DT, not D. There is a letter after the D there.

I'm well aware of what it says. SF's DTs are better.

49ersfan_87
05-26-2012, 12:05 PM
I can't give either Cassel or Alex Smith an advantage over the other. They cancel each other out.

EDIT: The Raider and SD still have good talent. Ingram and Jarret Johnson are huge pickups for the Bolts, who IMO had a hiccup last year. And I still believe Peyton Manning at 75-85% makes the Broncos a threat to beat anyone they play.

It may not be the best division in football, but the AFCW has to be one of the more competitive.

Coaching is really important too, and the x-factor. I don't think Smith would do as well well under KC's offensive coaching staff. Heck, switch Harbaugh and Crennel around (and the coaching staffs) and i think KC becomes instant contenders, and the 49ers would be 10-6 at best.

Ness
05-26-2012, 01:58 PM
Cassell has one 3500 yard season. Which was in New England's pass-heavy offense. Cassell's second best season was similar in yardage to to that of Smith's last year (conservative, power-running offense.)

Why make it out to be a "dream season" for one player, and a eh, "just has to play well" for the other?

Didn't Cassel have Moss that season too?

Ness
05-26-2012, 02:00 PM
No offense to my Cleveland buddies here, but can anyone name the last coach that was successful there?

Butch Davis, for a season.

vidae
05-26-2012, 05:44 PM
Holy christ. I get that SF had a great year last year, but stop acting like Harbaugh is some coaching genius. The homer here is getting out of control.

Ness
05-26-2012, 06:22 PM
Holy christ. I get that SF had a great year last year, but stop acting like Harbaugh is some coaching genius. The homer here is getting out of control.

You are taking things completely the wrong way. There really isn't even a bad vibe in this thread the last couple pages. This discussion mainly has to do with the Chiefs and what Crennel plans to do going forward. No one said Harbaugh is a coaching genius. A few people implied that he did a good coach with the players last season. But the conversations gravitated towards Crennel and if he'll succeed in Kansas City where he failed in Cleveland. VAfy-ya just said he has better talent than he did with the Browns, so we shall see.

49ersfan_87
05-26-2012, 11:32 PM
You are taking things completely the wrong way. There really isn't even a bad vibe in this thread the last couple pages. This discussion mainly has to do with the Chiefs and what Crennel plans to do going forward. No one said Harbaugh is a coaching genius. A few people implied that he did a good coach with the players last season. But the conversations gravitated towards Crennel and if he'll succeed in Kansas City where he failed in Cleveland. VAfy-ya just said he has better talent than he did with the Browns, so we shall see.

Yep , nothing malicious going on here.

Brothgar
05-26-2012, 11:43 PM
You are taking things completely the wrong way. There really isn't even a bad vibe in this thread the last couple pages. This discussion mainly has to do with the Chiefs and what Crennel plans to do going forward. No one said Harbaugh is a coaching genius. A few people implied that he did a good coach with the players last season. But the conversations gravitated towards Crennel and if he'll succeed in Kansas City where he failed in Cleveland. VAfy-ya just said he has better talent than he did with the Browns, so we shall see.

I don't see how Crenell did that bad with the Browns I mean when was the last time the Browns had a 10 win season without Romeo? 1994? Yeah the Browns are not exactly a team use to winning.

Ness
05-27-2012, 12:16 AM
I don't see how Crenell did that bad with the Browns I mean when was the last time the Browns had a 10 win season without Romeo? 1994? Yeah the Browns are not exactly a team use to winning.

Well the Browns last made the playoffs with Butch Davis. Doesn't matter, he didn't succeed in Cleveland end of story. That doesn't mean he can't succeed with Kansas City though.

Brothgar
05-27-2012, 12:19 AM
Well the Browns last made the playoffs with Butch Davis. Doesn't matter, he didn't succeed in Cleveland end of story. That doesn't mean he can't succeed with Kansas City though.

My point is no one can succeed in Cleveland. I just didn't want to push the Browns fans off the bridge.

Ness
05-27-2012, 12:22 AM
My point is no one can succeed in Cleveland. I just didn't want to push the Browns fans off the bridge.

That is what folks said about Detroit. Cleveland was fairly decent in the 1980's. They haven't been good since then.

KCStud
05-27-2012, 01:22 AM
KC was a blocked FG away from winning the division last year. A blocked freaking FG. And that was with Tyler "I don't belong in the NFL" Palko starting for a month.
You give KC Jamaal Charles last year, they make the playoffs. Hell I think if Matt Cassel didn't get injured we make the playoffs.

You guys need to realize that Romeo took over an absolutely awful Browns team. Him winning 10 games is a miracle in itself.

I think with our injured players coming back and Cassel being back in the Pats system he thrived in, with so much talent around him, will have him playing at a level similar to 2010.

Oh and reports in KC is that Baldwin looks fantastic. I fully expect him to make a big impact this year.

Brothgar
05-27-2012, 01:29 AM
That is what folks said about Detroit. Cleveland was fairly decent in the 1980's. They haven't been good since then.

In the Millen era they would have been right. I imagine we had a couple good coaches in the Millen era we were just devoid of any target.

Cudders
05-27-2012, 02:58 PM
Jeesh, I like these Niners quite a bit, appreciate how the roster is assembled, and admire the coaching staff for their impressive performance, but reading some of the posts in this thread make it seem like this team is straight from the eighties, and it isnít.

An honest roster comparison can be had here. Both teams have a firm commitment to running the ball as the foundation of their offense and being strong on defense and an infusion of new blood on their coaching staff. Those are their hallmarks. And both teams have similar shortcomings, too. Their quarterback situations are just average. Thereís a valid thought process behind the comparison. To dismiss it based on the Ninersí wild success last season is being shortsighted. Past result isnít the perfect indicator for future success.

At quarterback, Iím far from sold on either. And, to me, thatís the thrust of this comparison. Teams composed of comparable, above average talent elsewhere and a maligned quarterback that just needs to be solid. Because I think both, at their core, are caretaker quarterbacks. I was impressed with the maturation and perseverance that Alex Smith showed, but I still donít think heís something to get excited about. Heís a good caretaker with a little potential. His brand of football fits San Francisco, but heís limited and the scheme must be manipulated around him at this point. As of right now, Matt Cassel needs to improve to get there. With the rash of injuries, Cassel struggled and handicapped the Chiefs offense. He must rediscover that solid form this season. He has proven to be a capable caretaker quarterback before. His performance is the biggest factor for the Chiefs. If he can be stable, I donít think a return to the postseason is far-fetched at all. Right now, I would give the Niners a clear edge at the position. Letís not forget how Alex Smith was viewed around nine-to-twelve months ago though.

Running back is close. Jamaal Charles is an electric home run-hitter coming off a torn knee and Peyton Hillis is a bruiser coming off a forgettable season in Cleveland, but I love how their skill sets complement each other and believe itís a potent one-two punch. Frank Gore is a reliable workhorse, Kendall Hunter is a well-rounded backup, LaMichael James adds some explosive elements, and Brandon Jacobs is irrelevant. The Niners line mauls, but the Chiefs added a premier right tackle in Eric Winston to anchor that side. Overall, I like the Ninersí line more, but I prefer the Chiefsí stable of backs.

On defense, I think the Chiefs are being slept on. Itís not like this is a slam dunk no-brainer. This unit has legitimate talent at each level. On the whole, Iíd give San Francisco the edge, but most of that is based off the strength of their front seven, and Justin Smithís absurd beastliness in particular. The Chiefs arenít even devoid of difference-makers there though. Tamba Hali is a stud edge rusher and Derrick Johnson has emerged as one of the gameís top odd-front inside linebackers. If some of the Chiefsí greener pieces continue to progress, this could be a real interesting debate.

Now, this thread seems to have devolved into coaching. For starters, Iím a big-time Harbaugh believer. The man knows how to maximize his football teamís potential. You could even see it at Stanford. Those Cardinal teams featured the best coached, most prepared units in the nation. I expect he will cement himself as one of the NFLís best in no time.

Which brings me to Romeo Crennel. As a Browns fan (who felt the sting of all those hurtful and true things), the following is what I remember of Crennel. Aside from poor clock management, the thing I disliked most was how unimaginative and vanilla the defenses were under his watch. But, in all fairness to RAC, Clevelandís talent level pales in comparison to his current crop of defenders and his approach to the defense back then was more hands-off. From what Iíve heard, heís retaining his defensive responsibilities this time around. That sounds like a self-aware man thatís capable of learning from prior experiences and changing as needed to me, so I donít think the Brown blemish on his rťsumť should be weighted too much going forward. Not to mention, I donít see Pioli looking to undermine him on a regular basis either.

TL; DR Ė I think the Niners are the better team, but the comparison has definite merit. If Cassel excels in a well-defined role, the Chiefs are capable of matching or even surpassing their 2010 form.

bigbluedefense
05-27-2012, 03:10 PM
The question isn't if Matt Cassel can have an Alex Smith like season, it's a matter of will he?

He's already shown he's capable of putting up a year like that. He did it in 2010 under Weis. He had 3100 yards, 27 tds and 7 ints.

Alex Smith had 3100 yards 17 tds and 5 ints. So if you think about it, Cassel not only has shown that he can perform like Smith in a similar role, he's shown he can perform better than Smith in that role.

VAfy-ya
05-27-2012, 06:01 PM
Jeesh, I like these Niners quite a bit, appreciate how the roster is assembled, and admire the coaching staff for their impressive performance, but reading some of the posts in this thread make it seem like this team is straight from the eighties, and it isnít.

An honest roster comparison can be had here. Both teams have a firm commitment to running the ball as the foundation of their offense and being strong on defense and an infusion of new blood on their coaching staff. Those are their hallmarks. And both teams have similar shortcomings, too. Their quarterback situations are just average. Thereís a valid thought process behind the comparison. To dismiss it based on the Ninersí wild success last season is being shortsighted. Past result isnít the perfect indicator for future success.

At quarterback, Iím far from sold on either. And, to me, thatís the thrust of this comparison. Teams composed of comparable, above average talent elsewhere and a maligned quarterback that just needs to be solid. Because I think both, at their core, are caretaker quarterbacks. I was impressed with the maturation and perseverance that Alex Smith showed, but I still donít think heís something to get excited about. Heís a good caretaker with a little potential. His brand of football fits San Francisco, but heís limited and the scheme must be manipulated around him at this point. As of right now, Matt Cassel needs to improve to get there. With the rash of injuries, Cassel struggled and handicapped the Chiefs offense. He must rediscover that solid form this season. He has proven to be a capable caretaker quarterback before. His performance is the biggest factor for the Chiefs. If he can be stable, I donít think a return to the postseason is far-fetched at all. Right now, I would give the Niners a clear edge at the position. Letís not forget how Alex Smith was viewed around nine-to-twelve months ago though.

Running back is close. Jamaal Charles is an electric home run-hitter coming off a torn knee and Peyton Hillis is a bruiser coming off a forgettable season in Cleveland, but I love how their skill sets complement each other and believe itís a potent one-two punch. Frank Gore is a reliable workhorse, Kendall Hunter is a well-rounded backup, LaMichael James adds some explosive elements, and Brandon Jacobs is irrelevant. The Niners line mauls, but the Chiefs added a premier right tackle in Eric Winston to anchor that side. Overall, I like the Ninersí line more, but I prefer the Chiefsí stable of backs.

On defense, I think the Chiefs are being slept on. Itís not like this is a slam dunk no-brainer. This unit has legitimate talent at each level. On the whole, Iíd give San Francisco the edge, but most of that is based off the strength of their front seven, and Justin Smithís absurd beastliness in particular. The Chiefs arenít even devoid of difference-makers there though. Tamba Hali is a stud edge rusher and Derrick Johnson has emerged as one of the gameís top odd-front inside linebackers. If some of the Chiefsí greener pieces continue to progress, this could be a real interesting debate.

Now, this thread seems to have devolved into coaching. For starters, Iím a big-time Harbaugh believer. The man knows how to maximize his football teamís potential. You could even see it at Stanford. Those Cardinal teams featured the best coached, most prepared units in the nation. I expect he will cement himself as one of the NFLís best in no time.

Which brings me to Romeo Crennel. As a Browns fan (who felt the sting of all those hurtful and true things), the following is what I remember of Crennel. Aside from poor clock management, the thing I disliked most was how unimaginative and vanilla the defenses were under his watch. But, in all fairness to RAC, Clevelandís talent level pales in comparison to his current crop of defenders and his approach to the defense back then was more hands-off. From what Iíve heard, heís retaining his defensive responsibilities this time around. That sounds like a self-aware man thatís capable of learning from prior experiences and changing as needed to me, so I donít think the Brown blemish on his rťsumť should be weighted too much going forward. Not to mention, I donít see Pioli looking to undermine him on a regular basis either.

TL; DR Ė I think the Niners are the better team, but the comparison has definite merit. If Cassel excels in a well-defined role, the Chiefs are capable of matching or even surpassing their 2010 form.

The most thought out and well-spoken post I've read around here in a good while. I think Cassel has proven he can have a season as good as, if not better than the one Alex put together last year. They both need to prove they can accomplish those feats consistently, game after game, year after year.

nepg
05-27-2012, 10:09 PM
Both QBs can be more than "caretakers", though. The key for both is playing with confidence. Alex Smith is a BAMF when he plays angry and Cassel's beast mode is triggered if he gets a nice rhythm going early in the game. It's a matter of consistency for both. I think with non-****** protection and non-****** weapons, Cassel can achieve that consistency.

Alex is different in that I think he just needs to be made the guy and have a consistent year-to-year coaching situation.

Really doesn't matter what they need at this point, though. They both have it on paper for 2012 and they both need to prove they can play at those elevated levels over the course of an entire season and beyond.

phlysac
05-27-2012, 10:17 PM
Alex Smith is a BAMF when he plays angry

I appreciate that a non-biased observer can see that in his game. If he's able to bottle that consistently (BIG IF,) alot of the naysaying will become completely irrelevent.

49ersfan_87
05-27-2012, 10:27 PM
I appreciate that a non-biased observer can see that in his game. If he's able to bottle that consistently (BIG IF,) alot of the naysaying will become completely irrelevent.

I think if he could have done that consistently, he would have by now.

nepg
05-27-2012, 10:54 PM
I think if he could have done that consistently, he would have by now.
No. He's faced some steep barriers to being able to do that throughout his career. Things are different for him now. I think he realizes the control he has over the situation at this point. And that, along with having the same offensive system for a consecutive year will do wonders for his level of play.

King Carls 5 Year Plan
05-28-2012, 11:48 AM
another offseason and another Cassel vs random QB thread. last year it was who would you rather have Cassel or Freeman? now it's can Cassel duplicate Smiths success? look, Cassel is easily the weak spot on this 2012 Kansas City Chiefs team. if Cassel struggles, the Chiefs struggle. however, his success doesn't mean the Chiefs succeed. is it more likely, sure. can he put together another 3100, 27 & 7? absolutely. does that mean the Chiefs go 13-3 and make an appearance in the AFC Champoinship game (matching Smiths season)? that would depend on a ton of other teams and players. i think the AFC West this year is significantly better than the NFC West a year ago. possible injuries to the Chiefs defense and offensive playmakers would play a huge role. i think Cassel could easily duplicate 3100, 17 & 5. that doesn't mean the situations are even remotely close or would have similar endings.

niel89
05-28-2012, 08:52 PM
The 49ers and the Chiefs are pretty comparably talented overall but I think the 49ers are the clear better team. Cassel could easily match/surpass what Smith did last year but I'm not at all confident in Cassel being healthy or consistent enough.

The Chiefs are going to rebound from a forgettable last season, but the 49ers were one of the best teams last year and should only get better on offense with a full offseason with the offense. I'm not fully confident that Charles, Moeaki, and Berry all comeback and be great players right away, although they got hurt early so they have more time to heal.

I strongly think that Harbaugh is a much better coach than Romeo, and the end results next year will reflect that.

Iamcanadian
05-29-2012, 12:41 AM
I believe KC has the talent to bounce back and Crennel will get the best out of them.
The Broncos are tough at home because of the thin air but Peyton will be rusty and need time to get back into form against a very tough schedule. The home wins will keep them in contention but I seriously doubt we will see the old Peyton until possibly late in the season.

onejayhawk
05-31-2012, 06:06 AM
The 49ers and the Chiefs are pretty comparably talented overall but I think the 49ers are the clear better team. Cassel could easily match/surpass what Smith did last year but I'm not at all confident in Cassel being healthy or consistent enough.

The Chiefs are going to rebound from a forgettable last season, but the 49ers were one of the best teams last year and should only get better on offense with a full offseason with the offense. I'm not fully confident that Charles, Moeaki, and Berry all comeback and be great players right away, although they got hurt early so they have more time to heal.

I strongly think that Harbaugh is a much better coach than Romeo, and the end results next year will reflect that.

I like the Chiefs depth a lot better. The 49ers were fortunate with injuries last season, and that rarely happens two years running. The Chiefs lost two Pro Bowlers in the first two games. This also does not happen two years running.

J

49ersfan_87
05-31-2012, 12:29 PM
I like the Chiefs depth a lot better. The 49ers were fortunate with injuries last season, and that rarely happens two years running. The Chiefs lost two Pro Bowlers in the first two games. This also does not happen two years running.

J

They've been healthy for 4 straight years, not 1.

http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2012/03/27/the-49ers-defense-dominant-and-remarkably-durable/

On further review, however, San Franciscoís injury-free 2011 season wasnít lucky. It was the continuation of a trend.

In 2010, the 49ersí defensive starters missed two games due to injury. In 2009, they missed 11. In 2008, they missed three games.

Yes, Justin Smith isnít the defenseís only iron man. Nose guard Isaac Sopoaga, for example, has missed two games since 2005. Linebacker Parys Harlson has started 56 of the Ninersí past 57 games. Safety Dashon Goldson has started 46 of 48 games since 2009 and linebacker Patrick Willis started 75 of his first 76 career games prior to last yearís hamstring injury.

What does this mean? For starters, trainer Jeff Ferguson and strength and conditioning coach Mark Uyeyama probably deserve a raise, a Rolex and a Caribbean cruise. And then thereís this: Donít expect that same turnover differential in 2012, but itís reasonable to expect one of the leagueís most dominant defenses to remain among its most durable.

Roddoliver
10-15-2012, 11:34 PM
The Chiefs are almost there. They even scored more points than the 49ers this week, so I can definitely see the comparison.