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Matthew Jones
05-24-2012, 11:10 AM
We all know that many prospects who are graded as early-round picks before the start of the college football season eventually go much lower in the draft and a number of players shoot up draft boards and are selected much earlier than previously expected. Call it 11 months in advance: who are the overrated and underrated prospects at this point in the draft process?

ncst8fan83
05-24-2012, 11:33 AM
Homer hat on - Mike Glennon is underrated. Not saying he should be a 1st round pick at this point, but 3rd-4th is undervaluing him as a player and prospect in my opinion.

Overrated - Tyler Bray. His production leaves a lot to be desired. A career 57.65% completion percentage. Never thrown for over 2k yards. Injury and character concerns. Just not sold on him yet.

wicket
05-24-2012, 11:45 AM
Overrated - Tyler Bray. His production leaves a lot to be desired. A career 57.65% completion percentage. Never thrown for over 2k yards. Injury and character concerns. Just not sold on him yet.

Underrated - Zach Martin - Im also going homer, the guy lacks one or two inches to be a first rounder i guess but he has been the best ND offensive lineman last season and already played up to a level i havent seen from an Irish Olineman in quite a few years.

Matthew Jones
05-24-2012, 11:55 AM
Some of my overrated players:

QB Landry Jones, Oklahoma

Footwork is inconsistent and alters his arm angle too much; accuracy comes and goes, and pads stats by playing in a screen-happy spread offense.

RB Montee Ball, Wisconsin

Well-rounded and incredibly productive but the vast majority of his yardage is created by running through gaping holes cleared by his elite line.

OT Chris Faulk, Louisiana St.*

Massive road-grader in the run game but must improve his balance and ability to sustain blocks; could be forced to move to right tackle in the NFL.

OT D.J. Fluker, Alabama*

Alabama has not felt comfortable moving him to the right side; plays softer than his size would indicate and is not a finisher by any means.

OL Barrett Jones, Alabama

Versatility and intelligence should make him a late first or early second-round pick but is not a top athlete and has trouble sustaining blocks.

DT Johnathon Hankins, Ohio St.*

Quality run defender with the size to interest teams as a nose tackle but is blocked too often by just one lineman and lacks top rush skills.

FS Bacarri Rambo, Georgia

Awesome name and a ton of interceptions last year have severely inflated his stock; misses too many tackles and gets caught out of position.

SS Ray-Ray Armstrong, Miami (FL)

Seductive size but instincts are severely lacking and often finds himself out of position due to bad angles; goes for big hit too often.

SS Kenny Vaccaro, Texas

Does not play up to his listed size and lacks top ball skills; more of a versatile third-rounder than a first-round possibility.

ncst8fan83
05-24-2012, 11:57 AM
RB Montee Ball, Wisconsin

Well-rounded and incredibly productive but the vast majority of his yardage is created by running through gaping holes cleared by his elite line.

Where was this argument when Reggie Bush came out?

proshoota25
05-24-2012, 03:35 PM
Where was this argument when Reggie Bush came out?

reggie was making highlights down the field and making tacklers look silly, sure he had big holes but he finished plays due to his his elite speed and shiftiness. cant say the same for montee. ball is a very good player in his own right though

underscore
05-24-2012, 04:42 PM
Monte Ball is likely to get a workload like he got last year, too. Pushing 600 carries in 2 years won't do him well come draft day.

Matthew Jones
05-24-2012, 04:57 PM
Where was this argument when Reggie Bush came out?

That's a ridiculous statement considering Reggie Bush was an elite athlete who used his elusiveness and unreal burst to create far more for himself than Ball, who is able to pick up what his offensive line gives him but rarely breaks tackles or makes defenders miss.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-24-2012, 05:00 PM
Underrated: Taylor Lewan

ncst8fan83
05-24-2012, 05:40 PM
That's a ridiculous statement considering Reggie Bush was an elite athlete who used his elusiveness and unreal burst to create far more for himself than Ball, who is able to pick up what his offensive line gives him but rarely breaks tackles or makes defenders miss.

Yes, Reggie has done this so much since he was drafted. I digress though. This shouldn't be about Reggie. Just found it funny.

RCAChainGang
05-24-2012, 06:36 PM
Yeah I'm not very high on Montee Ball.

I like what I have seen from Knile Davis better.

princefielder28
05-24-2012, 07:52 PM
That's a ridiculous statement considering Reggie Bush was an elite athlete who used his elusiveness and unreal burst to create far more for himself than Ball, who is able to pick up what his offensive line gives him but rarely breaks tackles or makes defenders miss.

You need to watch more Montee Ball then if you think that's the case. He may not be super elusive in the open field like a Reggie Bush, but between the tackles he cuts exceptionally and does a wonderful job of evading and side-stepping tacklers.

Ball's abilities are often overlooked and the Badgers offensive line is usually given the majority of the credit, but Ball is simply more than a product of the system. James White had a disappointing sophomore year and based off of the perception out there he should've been able to pick up four yards without an issue because of the big boys in front of him. I guess what I am trying to say is that it's a lazy argument against Ball to put his production solely, or the majority of it, on the line's shoulders.

Matthew Jones
05-24-2012, 08:24 PM
Ball is an effective one-cut runner who is decisive enough and well-rounded enough to warrant a pick in the 60-80 range but many people are ranking him as one of the top senior draft picks. Don't you think the "if you disagree with me, you haven't watched him" fallacy is childish? Wisconsin is actually one of my most-watched football programs largely because of the effectiveness of their ground game, which often clears running lanes that look something like this:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k192/RPMcMurphy_01/monteeball.png

princefielder28
05-24-2012, 08:34 PM
Ball is an effective one-cut runner who is decisive enough and well-rounded enough to warrant a pick in the 60-80 range but many people are ranking him as one of the top senior draft picks. Don't you think the "if you disagree with me, you haven't watched him" fallacy is childish? Wisconsin is actually one of my most-watched football programs largely because of the effectiveness of their ground game, which often clears running lanes that look something like this:



I'm trying to stay away from that, but you're making a generalization about the Badgers' program that really didn't hold true 100% last season. The Badgers line was talented, not as much as years past, and Ball's production and game are not simply the product of an exceptional line. Granted there are instances like the picture you have above but there are countless examples throughout the season where Ball turned one or two yard runs into far greater gains because of his elusiveness and ability to find/hit the hole; not to mention that he is also a fantastic pass catcher. Ball is a much different player than the likes of Brian Calhoun, Anthony Davis, and John Clay before him.

Matthew Jones
05-24-2012, 08:43 PM
I'm trying to stay away from that, but you're making a generalization about the Badgers' program that really didn't hold true 100% last season. The Badgers line was talented, not as much as years past, and Ball's production and game are not simply the product of an exceptional line. Granted there are instances like the picture you have above but there are countless examples throughout the season where Ball turned one or two yard runs into far greater gains because of his elusiveness and ability to find/hit the hole; not to mention that he is also a fantastic pass catcher. Ball is a much different player than the likes of Brian Calhoun, Anthony Davis, and John Clay before him.

I don't think he's similar to Calhoun, Davis, or Clay. More like a Joseph Addai.

ATLDirtyBirds
05-24-2012, 10:02 PM
Yeah I'm not very high on Montee Ball.

I like what I have seen from Knile Davis better.

If healthy, Knile is absolutely better than Ball.

America
05-24-2012, 10:09 PM
SS Kenny Vaccaro, Texas
Does not play up to his listed size and lacks top ball skills; more of a versatile third-rounder than a first-round possibility.

Vaccaro is one of the biggest hitters in the big 12 conference and he can cover the slot. He plays much bigger than his size, he's not that big at all.

Matthew Jones
05-24-2012, 10:19 PM
Vaccaro is one of the biggest hitters in the big 12 conference and he can cover the slot. He plays much bigger than his size, he's not that big at all.

Vacarro is listed at 6'1" and 215 pounds, that's pretty big for a safety prospect. To put that in perspective, Mark Barron was 6'1", 213, Antonio Allen was 6'2", 210, Markelle Martin was 6'1", 207, Harrison Smith was 6'2", 213, and Brandon Taylor was 5'11", 209.

FUNBUNCHER
05-25-2012, 10:10 AM
Ball is an effective one-cut runner who is decisive enough and well-rounded enough to warrant a pick in the 60-80 range but many people are ranking him as one of the top senior draft picks. Don't you think the "if you disagree with me, you haven't watched him" fallacy is childish? Wisconsin is actually one of my most-watched football programs largely because of the effectiveness of their ground game, which often clears running lanes that look something like this:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k192/RPMcMurphy_01/monteeball.png


LOL.

That's just ridiculous blocking by Wisconsin and they blast running lanes like that for Ball at least 3 times a game.

It may not be fair to Ball, but if he doesn't score on opportunities like this almost every single time, it hurts in his evaluation.

Not saying Ball doesn't have the ability to be a starting RB in the NFL, but I still believe he's nowhere as good as his stats would suggest.

Otherwise he would have declared in 2012.

Brothgar
05-25-2012, 10:25 AM
Well I don't like to make blanket statements but USC QBs tend to be over rated.

iowatreat54
05-25-2012, 11:56 AM
James Vandenberg is going to shatter all your worlds en route to a record setting season and top 10 pick next April.



No, but seriously, with the new offense and if Vandenberg can resolve his mental issues (specifically playing on the road and not making stupid throws), he has all the tools to put together a really good year. Last year he passed for 3000 yards and had a 4:1 TD:INT ratio. With no running game, supposedly an increase in spread passing formations and more up tempo series, Vandenberg could move up to a 3rd-4th round prospect I think...

CashmoneyDrew
05-25-2012, 03:22 PM
Overrated - Tyler Bray. His production leaves a lot to be desired. A career 57.65% completion percentage. Never thrown for over 2k yards. Injury and character concerns. Just not sold on him yet.

You'll see how overrated he is August 31.

TitanHope
05-25-2012, 03:30 PM
You'll see how overrated he is August 31.

Ihzp55Cuo7M

Matthew Jones
05-25-2012, 03:40 PM
Well I don't like to make blanket statements but USC QBs tend to be over rated.

It would be foolish to completely disregard a program's prospects based on what previous prospects did, especially because the coaching staff/scheme has changed. Besides, it's too early to make a call on Mark Sanchez, and Carson Palmer had a solid career in Cincinnati despite regressing severely later during his time there (he's probably the most significant Bengal of all time.)

JoeJoeBrown
05-25-2012, 04:11 PM
LOL.

That's just ridiculous blocking by Wisconsin and they blast running lanes like that for Ball at least 3 times a game.

It may not be fair to Ball, but if he doesn't score on opportunities like this almost every single time, it hurts in his evaluation.

Not saying Ball doesn't have the ability to be a starting RB in the NFL, but I still believe he's nowhere as good as his stats would suggest.

Otherwise he would have declared in 2012.

Total tangent, but man, Pitt might be something to reckon with over the next few years if Chryst can get any line talent.

Matthew Jones
05-25-2012, 04:21 PM
LOL.

That's just ridiculous blocking by Wisconsin and they blast running lanes like that for Ball at least 3 times a game.

It may not be fair to Ball, but if he doesn't score on opportunities like this almost every single time, it hurts in his evaluation.

Not saying Ball doesn't have the ability to be a starting RB in the NFL, but I still believe he's nowhere as good as his stats would suggest.

Otherwise he would have declared in 2012.

The sad thing about that play is that it was only a gain of around 10 yards. The safety you see in the picture ended up making the tackle.

ncst8fan83
05-25-2012, 04:22 PM
You'll see how overrated he is August 31.

Can't wait to see him. Will I see Cincinnati Tyler Bray or Kentucky Tyler Bray? Against our secondary, I'll go with Kentucky Tyler Bray is more likely.

Will you see Clemson Mike Glennon or FSU Mike Glennon?

stlouisfan37
05-25-2012, 04:48 PM
LOL.

That's just ridiculous blocking by Wisconsin and they blast running lanes like that for Ball at least 3 times a game.

It may not be fair to Ball, but if he doesn't score on opportunities like this almost every single time, it hurts in his evaluation.

Not saying Ball doesn't have the ability to be a starting RB in the NFL, but I still believe he's nowhere as good as his stats would suggest.

Otherwise he would have declared in 2012.

I agree. I think he made a horrible decision in staying in school. What could he possibly do to improve his stock after having a year with 2200+ yards from scrimmage and 39 total TD's?

CashmoneyDrew
05-25-2012, 04:53 PM
Can't wait to see him. Will I see Cincinnati Tyler Bray or Kentucky Tyler Bray? Against our secondary, I'll go with Kentucky Tyler Bray is more likely.

Will you see Clemson Mike Glennon or FSU Mike Glennon?

Tyler Bray was playing the Kentucky game with the flu and a broken thumb. Prepare to be extremely disappointed if you think you're seeing that.

ncst8fan83
05-25-2012, 05:16 PM
Tyler Bray was playing the Kentucky game with the flu and a broken thumb. Prepare to be extremely disappointed if you think you're seeing that.

So what is his best game to date? He played really well in the Cincy game. Buffalo? Montana? Ugh. Umm, 2010 - Memphis? Ole Miss?

By no means am I saying he's awful or has no chance to be a 1st round pick. Just saying he has not shown, in any way, shape, or form, the ability to perform like a top 10 or even 1st round pick. He's only a RS-JR, so he has plenty of time. But if you look at his performance on the field, there's nothing aside from Rocky Top bias that would lead you to believe he should be a top 10 selection next year.

ATLDirtyBirds
05-25-2012, 05:49 PM
But if you look at his performance on the field, there's nothing aside from Rocky Top bias that would lead you to believe he should be a top 10 selection next year.


Unless you care about talent, tools, potential, and silly stuff like that.

Bixby (Thumper)
05-25-2012, 06:20 PM
Unless you care about talent, tools, potential, and silly stuff like that.

Stats are the ultimate measure of how good a player is, it's why Colt Brennan is tearing it up in the NFL.

ncst8fan83
05-25-2012, 06:23 PM
Unless you care about talent, tools, potential, and silly stuff like that.

Not very good at that whole reading comprehension thing, eh? What part of " if you look at his performance on the field" did you not understand? If talent, tools, and potential are there and he can't perform on the field, that's ripe for epic bust potential. If you want to jerk off to Bray's potential, go for it. The fact remains that his completion percentage is atrocious and he pads what little stats he has had against weak competition.

What has he done to warrant top 10 consideration in your estimation?

Bixby (Thumper)
05-25-2012, 06:32 PM
Not very good at that whole reading comprehension thing, eh? What part of " if you look at his performance on the field" did you not understand? If talent, tools, and potential are there and he can't perform on the field, that's ripe for epic bust potential. If you want to jerk off to Bray's potential, go for it. The fact remains that his completion percentage is atrocious and he pads what little stats he has had against weak competition.

What has he done to warrant top 10 consideration in your estimation?

Be honest, have you actually seen Tyler Bray play? Because it sounds like you're basing all of this off of box scores.

CashmoneyDrew
05-25-2012, 06:39 PM
Be honest, have you actually seen Tyler Bray play? Because it sounds like you're basing all of this off of box scores.

The answer is no. He said Bray was a RS-JR which is incorrect as well. He knows nothing.

He's trying to downgrade Tyler Bray while also throwing Mike Glennon out there as underrated.

Tyler Bray this past season had a better YPA, TD/INT ratio, and QB rating as a true sophomore compared to the redshirt junior that is Mike Glennon.

Also, how is Tyler Bray injury prone? He broke his thumb on top of an opposing player's helmet in the follow-through of a pass. That can literally happen to any QB on any passing play.

ncst8fan83
05-25-2012, 06:47 PM
The answer is no. He said Bray was a RS-JR which is incorrect as well. He knows nothing.

He's trying to downgrade Tyler Bray while also throwing Mike Glennon out there as underrated.

Tyler Bray this past season had a better YPA, TD/INT ratio, and QB rating as a true sophomore compared to the redshirt junior that is Mike Glennon.

Also, how is Tyler Bray injury prone? He broke his thumb on top of an opposing player's helmet in the follow-through of a pass. That can literally happen to any QB on any passing play.

I don't believe I said he was injury prone, did I? If I did, it was a mistype. I didn't realize he didn't take a rs year, my bad. That obviously means he's not overrated. I also didn't realize the gigantic boner quite a few guys have over him on this forum. Didn't mean to rile you guys up.

Tyler Bray is gonna be fan-*******-tastic! Can't wait to see him tearin' up the NFL like he's tearin' up the SEC! Boy, I sure hope he takes it easy on us come August 31st or we're in super duper trouble. (that better?)

ATLDirtyBirds
05-25-2012, 06:57 PM
Not very good at that whole reading comprehension thing, eh? What part of " if you look at his performance on the field" did you not understand? If talent, tools, and potential are there and he can't perform on the field, that's ripe for epic bust potential. If you want to jerk off to Bray's potential, go for it. The fact remains that his completion percentage is atrocious and he pads what little stats he has had against weak competition.

What has he done to warrant top 10 consideration in your estimation?


Yeah, you're right dude. His ability hasn't translated to the field at all. He sucks.

CashmoneyDrew
05-25-2012, 08:34 PM
I don't believe I said he was injury prone, did I? If I did, it was a mistype.

You said "injury concerns". Same thing basically.

I didn't realize he didn't take a rs year, my bad. That obviously means he's not overrated.

No. It's just further proof that you don't really know what you're talking about.

I also didn't realize the gigantic boner quite a few guys have over him on this forum. Didn't mean to rile you guys up.

I'm so fully torqued.

Tyler Bray is gonna be fan-*******-tastic! Can't wait to see him tearin' up the NFL like he's tearin' up the SEC! Boy, I sure hope he takes it easy on us come August 31st or we're in super duper trouble. (that better?)

If you can't handle someone challenging your opinion, then don't post it on a message board. You know, that place where people discuss and debate things.

ncst8fan83
05-25-2012, 08:37 PM
My opinion didn't change. I'm quite alright with anyone who feels he is valued correctly or undervalued even. I don't believe that to be the case. I hope he torches every team after August 31st, but based on past production being an indicator of future performance, I do not believe he warrants a top half of the first round grade at this point. Fair enough?

CashmoneyDrew
05-25-2012, 08:39 PM
I never said you need to change your opinion. I said challenging your opinion.

TitanHope
05-25-2012, 10:11 PM
Can't wait to see him. Will I see Cincinnati Tyler Bray or Kentucky Tyler Bray? Against our secondary, I'll go with Kentucky Tyler Bray is more likely.

Kentucky Tyler Bray was playing with a busted thumb on his throwing hand, so uhhhh...

And I don't side with any secondary against this WR corps.

FUNBUNCHER
05-28-2012, 06:26 PM
Can't wait to see NC State vs. Tennessee Aug. 31st. Physically Bray and Glennon are very similar prospects. Both are extremely tall with cannon arms.
Should be one of the best early games of the season, love it that both guys have legit top 10 pick ability.

I'm a huge Glennon fan and think he's slightly underrated on this board. With the depth and skill in the 2013 QB draft class, guys really need to shine when they have the chance to distance themselves from the other prospects.

SenorGato
05-29-2012, 02:24 AM
Overrated:

Mingo - Needs weight, but a great mover. Needs weight.

Rambo - Hit or miss safety getting first round talk because of his 8 INT season. He's not that good.

Ray Ray Armstrong - Everyone's talking about this upcoming safety class, but Reid, McDonald, and maybe Lester are the only two (so far) that I'd draft in the first two rounds.

That Hunter WR fom Tenn - Woods and Allen I like.

Barrett Jones - Decent prospect, but eh.

Bjoern Werner - Overrated as a pass rusher, but could be a Matt Roth type player.

Margus Hunt - Is that his name? Yeah, he's overrated if I'm going by his thread here.

Manti Te'o - Only because he and almost all LBs like him should go at the top of the second unless the draft really sucks.

Underrated:

Montgomery - Better pro body, explosive in his own right, productive, more experienced (more snaps, actually started), right now the only pass rusher I like as much or more than the Texas two.

Jonathan Cooper - G from UNC has big, big upside.

CashmoneyDrew
05-29-2012, 03:47 PM
That Hunter WR fom Tenn - Woods and Allen I like.


:wink2: Very convincing.