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JoeJoeBrown
06-11-2012, 09:29 PM
Figured we would put this crap in one place.

Amendola sounds like a complete chump of an attorney. (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--jerry-sandusky-molestation-trial-victim-1-credible-joe-amendola-.html)

TimD
06-11-2012, 09:43 PM
it makes me sick to read all the news about the trial, but im glad hes getting what he deserves. i hope every victim is brutally honest, and the asshole rots away in prison

StickSkills
06-11-2012, 09:45 PM
it makes me sick to read all the news about the trial, but im glad hes getting what he deserves. i hope every victim is brutally honest, and the asshole rots away in prison

I hope he gets what he deserves. Going into this case, it seemed like the prosecution was going to be sloppy. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I could see him being found not guilty because of there remaining reasonable doubt, which would be down right sickening.

JoeJoeBrown
06-11-2012, 11:33 PM
I hope he gets what he deserves. Going into this case, it seemed like the prosecution was going to be sloppy. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I could see him being found not guilty because of there remaining reasonable doubt, which would be down right sickening.

I believe the Feds are investigating the situation as well, so if PA fails, the Feds would likely not mess it up.

prock
06-11-2012, 11:56 PM
The entire defense is such ******** as far as I'm concerned.

Ngatachance92
06-12-2012, 12:31 AM
They need to bring back castration.

JoeJoeBrown
06-12-2012, 07:57 AM
The entire defense is such ******** as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, Amendola himself is a pedo.

tjsunstein
06-12-2012, 08:01 AM
Sandusky is going to kill himself in prison. I'd bet money on that.

Ngatachance92
06-12-2012, 08:04 AM
Sandusky is going to kill himself in prison. I'd bet money on that.

How fitting would it be if he got sexually abused and than killed by a fellow inmate?

Nalej
06-12-2012, 08:15 AM
Death by stoning. Do it.

Santonio10
06-12-2012, 08:54 AM
Yeah, Amendola himself is a pedo.

Amedola is one of the most well respected attorneys in the area and is doing his job to defend his client. I think Amendola would have preferred a plea deal. Im not sure how it works but I believe he has to do what Sandusky asks (to take it to trial) so he tried to make a case defending him, but it's backfiring. He didn't seem prepared for victim #4's testimony. I hope for the sake of the people he has hurt that Sandusky is found guilty on all counts and sent to rot in prison.

Santonio10
06-12-2012, 08:55 AM
How fitting would it be if he got sexually abused and than killed by a fellow inmate?

I have a feeling that this will happen

JoeJoeBrown
06-12-2012, 09:21 AM
Amedola is one of the most well respected attorneys in the area and is doing his job to defend his client. I think Amendola would have preferred a plea deal. Im not sure how it works but I believe he has to do what Sandusky asks (to take it to trial) so he tried to make a case defending him, but it's backfiring. He didn't seem prepared for victim #4's testimony. I hope for the sake of the people he has hurt that Sandusky is found guilty on all counts and sent to rot in prison.

From reading that writeup, it sounds like he is getting slaughtered. You are right that a lawyer has to do what his client tells him or the lawyer can drop his client. For some reason he didn't drop Sandusky. Maybe he wants Sandusky to get nailed and is bumbling around on purpose because his conscious is getting to him.

Also, if a pedo that impregnated a 16 year old girl (http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/11/14/111511-news-sandusky-lawyer-teen-web/), then used the law to legally emancipate her from her parents to protect himself is one of the most well respected lawyers in the area, then your area needs some serious self reflection on it's value system.

According to documents filed with Centre County Courthouse, Amendola served as the attorney for Mary Iavasile’s emancipation petition on Sept. 3, 1996, just weeks before her 17th birthday.

The emancipation request said Mary graduated from high school in two years with a 3.69 grade point average and maintained a full-time job — but makes no mention of any special relationship between her and her lawyer.

Roughly around the same time, however, Iavasile became pregnant with Amendola’s child, and gave birth before she turned 18, her mother, Janet Iavasile, alleged in an interview with The Daily.

He was born in 1948 and was around 49 at the time.

FlyingElvis
06-12-2012, 09:45 AM
Hopefully he'll get what he deserves. If the prosectution has every vitcim that's lined up as well prepared as this first guy, it should be pretty easy.

The last line of the article is perfect. At least there is one example of a victim who has everything going well for him, despite this pos.

"A kid who once cowered in front of Jerry Sandusky was all grown up Monday afternoon, strong, fearless and unafraid of telling it all on good old Jer."


How fitting would it be if he got sexually abused and than killed by a fellow inmate?

Few things in life can be guaranteed, but this one is about as close as possible.

Santonio10
06-12-2012, 12:05 PM
From reading that writeup, it sounds like he is getting slaughtered. You are right that a lawyer has to do what his client tells him or the lawyer can drop his client. For some reason he didn't drop Sandusky. Maybe he wants Sandusky to get nailed and is bumbling around on purpose because his conscious is getting to him.

Also, if a pedo that impregnated a 16 year old girl (http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/11/14/111511-news-sandusky-lawyer-teen-web/), then used the law to legally emancipate her from her parents to protect himself is one of the most well respected lawyers in the area, then your area needs some serious self reflection on it's value system.

Wow I didn't know about the 16 year old girl. Thats pretty crazy. I meant that he is well respected as a lawyer in the area (regarded as one of the best), although maybe not as a person. I never heard anything about Joe Amendola the person. Definitely lost respect for him after reading that.

MassNole
06-12-2012, 12:48 PM
Wow I didn't know about the 16 year old girl. Thats pretty crazy. I meant that he is well respected as a lawyer in the area (regarded as one of the best), although maybe not as a person. I never heard anything about Joe Amendola the person. Definitely lost respect for him after reading that.
How did he not get disbarred for that?

JoeJoeBrown
06-12-2012, 02:15 PM
LaVarr Arrington with a great piece here. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/hard-hits/post/i-wish-id-paid-more-attention-to-one-young-mans-pain/2012/06/12/gJQAkgviXV_blog.html)

K Train
06-12-2012, 02:40 PM
damn people here wish hed get raped and murdered in jail, but when i say i hope the girl that lies about banks gets raped for real i look like a piece of ****....what a double standard lol

JoeJoeBrown
06-12-2012, 02:44 PM
damn people here wish hed get raped and murdered in jail, but when i say i hope the girl that lies about banks gets raped for real i look like a piece of ****....what a double standard lol

Good point. However, I don't want the girl raped, I just want her thrown in jail for 20 years along with her mother.

SolidGold
06-13-2012, 06:51 AM
Summary of McQueary's testimony/day on the witness stand:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--mike-mcqueary-jerry-sandusky-trial-testimony-sexual-molestation-2001-showers.html

JoeJoeBrown
06-13-2012, 07:41 AM
Summary of McQueary's testimony/day on the witness stand:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--mike-mcqueary-jerry-sandusky-trial-testimony-sexual-molestation-2001-showers.html

Wow, there is hard evidence that the head of PSU buried the information (along with another executive). The head football coach was informed of activities.

Bad bad stuff.

Giantsfan1080
06-13-2012, 07:47 AM
The whole PSU program is dirty including Paterno. Just crazy they covered this all up for so long.

JoeJoeBrown
06-13-2012, 08:01 AM
The whole PSU program is dirty including Paterno. Just crazy they covered this all up for so long.

Yeah, I find it hard to believe that JoePa wasn't involved. Those above him knew and covered things up, those below him knew and either ignored it or didn't pursue it well enough, and he was explicitly told it was happening.

And he pushed the guy out of a job in 1998 after he was investigated.

It's a pretty messed up situation.

Bulldogs
06-13-2012, 09:53 AM
Glad to see Sandusky going down.

SolidGold
06-13-2012, 10:20 AM
What do you guys think of McQueary? I kind of feel he has been unfairly painted as a target. I remember a lot of the talking heads at ESPN criticizing him. He witnessed a pretty ****** up situation, it is easy to say how someone SHOULD react without ever actually having to experience witnessing something that terrible first hand. He was in a pretty tough spot- a young grad assistant at the time - I think he regrets not doing more (which is natural) but it looks like the whole PSU power structure was involved in this whole Sandusky mess/cover-up so McQueary probably felt powerless to some extent. He reported it to those he thought needed to know and would address the situation. Sorry for the rant - he was just the wrong guy at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Giantsfan1080
06-13-2012, 10:33 AM
Umm no he should have stopped it no matter what. I don't care what position you are in. He's an ass.

JoeJoeBrown
06-13-2012, 11:39 AM
What do you guys think of McQueary? I kind of feel he has been unfairly painted as a target. I remember a lot of the talking heads at ESPN criticizing him. He witnessed a pretty ****** up situation, it is easy to say how someone SHOULD react without ever actually having to experience witnessing something that terrible first hand. He was in a pretty tough spot- a young grad assistant at the time - I think he regrets not doing more (which is natural) but it looks like the whole PSU power structure was involved in this whole Sandusky mess/cover-up so McQueary probably felt powerless to some extent. He reported it to those he thought needed to know and would address the situation. Sorry for the rant - he was just the wrong guy at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Well, the guy pussed out. At heart he sounds like a good person, but in practice, he's a complete and utter coward. He tried to do the right thing, got shot down by some of the most powerful public employees in the state, and let that stop him from doing the right thing.

He was correct to be intimidated by the lack of action by Spannier, Curley, and JoePa. That had to freak him out. They were the power brokers in that whole area. He knows what kind of influence those guys had over any regular citizen of that county. Cops could look the other way as well as DAs if the PSU powerful put the pressure on them.

So in that case, he needed to elevate the issue to the state or federal level. But he pussed out. And it really sucks because there were more victims after that.

It's a crazy crazy situation.

Think about it:
The state's highest paid employees at one of it's most powerful and respected institutions covered up for a serial child rapist to protect the school football program's reputation. It's completely unfathomable to me. From the sounds of it, assistant coaches knew about the raping as well (according to the first day's testimony, Bradley knowingly interrupted a showering session and wouldn't leave Jerry alone with the kid).

I think many more details are going to come out as I think Spannier or Curley will end up singing for a plea bargain so that they don't spend the rest of their lives in jail.

And I think PSU is going to be successfully sued for hundreds of millions of dollars.

SolidGold
06-13-2012, 11:48 AM
Well, the guy pussed out. At heart he sounds like a good person, but in practice, he's a complete and utter coward. He tried to do the right thing, got shot down by some of the most powerful public employees in the state, and let that stop him from doing the right thing.

He was correct to be intimidated by the lack of action by Spannier, Curley, and JoePa. That had to freak him out. They were the power brokers in that whole area. He knows what kind of influence those guys had over any regular citizen of that county. Cops could look the other way as well as DAs if the PSU powerful put the pressure on them.

So in that case, he needed to elevate the issue to the state or federal level. But he pussed out. And it really sucks because there were more victims after that.

It's a crazy crazy situation.

Think about it:
The state's highest paid employees at one of it's most powerful and respected institutions covered up for a serial child rapist to protect the school football program's reputation. It's completely unfathomable to me. From the sounds of it, assistant coaches knew about the raping as well (according to the first day's testimony, Bradley knowingly interrupted a showering session and wouldn't leave Jerry alone with the kid).

I think many more details are going to come out as I think Spannier or Curley will end up singing for a plea bargain so that they don't spend the rest of their lives in jail.

And I think PSU is going to be successfully sued for hundreds of millions of dollars.

Yea I do agree with everything you said. Its such a terrible situation all around. Sandusky is a real sick **** for even letting this go to trial and having to have all the victims recount all the vile things he did to them. I feel so bad for all the victims.

JoeJoeBrown
06-13-2012, 12:00 PM
Yea I do agree with everything you said. Its such a terrible situation all around. Sandusky is a real sick **** for even letting this go to trial and having to have all the victims recount all the vile things he did to them. I feel so bad for all the victims.

It may be a final trophy moment for him. Something that he can fondly recall as these kids retell their stories.

IMO, you don't suddenly become a monster like this at age 54 (1998). There isn't anything that triggers you to become a *** child rapist. You either are wired wrong or you are not.

Sandusky probably acted this way for a long time. I think he just got caught in 1998.

His wife should likely be thrown in jail as well. They adopted a bunch of kids, he had a rape chamber in the basement, she had to freaking know a lot about his raping.

He ran a charity for abused kids since the 1977. He used that access to troubled young boys to select his victims.

The mind doesn't want to acknowledge this kind of stuff, and I know this is pure speculation, but there are likely hundreds of kids that he abused over the years. He is a true monster.

JoeJoeBrown
06-13-2012, 12:16 PM
Holy crap. Just saw this.
(http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/06/13/bernstein-penn-states-crimes-beyond-sandusky/)
JoePa and a bunch of other bigwigs involved with Second Mile had a ton of money to lose if Sandusky went down.

Very intertwined mess. I urge you to read the article and the attached links.

This is the web of relationships in big money projects.

http://downloads.thedaily.com/ui-images/2011/12/05/120511-news-paterno-business-graphic-ss.jpg

Santonio10
06-13-2012, 10:26 PM
Holy crap. Just saw this.
(http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/06/13/bernstein-penn-states-crimes-beyond-sandusky/)
JoePa and a bunch of other bigwigs involved with Second Mile had a ton of money to lose if Sandusky went down.

Very intertwined mess. I urge you to read the article and the attached links.

This is the web of relationships in big money projects.

http://downloads.thedaily.com/ui-images/2011/12/05/120511-news-paterno-business-graphic-ss.jpg

I honestly don't know how that is considered journalism when he is basing his argument on pure speculation. So what if he invested money into things with people from the BOD of the Second Mile. Matt Millen was on the BOD for the Second Mile, does that make him guilty too?

Please spare me the JoePa conspiracy theories. That guy hates Paterno (couldn't wait for him to die) and is just his name to create an interesting story that has no truth to it. He is reaching for a story (relationship web lol wow). The best part is that the people who read it take it as the truth. We don't know what Joe knew at what point in time. All that I know is that he put the information to the people who had the power to do something and followed the exact protocol laid out for him in this type of situation, and that is to report it to his superior. He did that, while at the same time informing, Gary Schultz, the head of University Park Police and the power to get an investigation launched.

Let me pause to add this important fact. University Park and State College are two separate places. They have different zip codes. University Park has it's own police force (yes, they are campus police, but they are a real police force. i.e. carry guns, capable of launching investigations, etc.).

Gary Schultz, along with Tim Curley and Graham Spanier decided that they would not pursue an investigation. What they told Joe after this decision is a mystery. Who knows what they told him. Again, spare me any conspiracy theory until the information actually comes out. What we do know is that they did not include Joe Paterno in the chain of e-mails sent.

I will give JoePa the benefit of the doubt until there is factual evidence to prove otherwise.

iowatreat54
06-14-2012, 08:11 AM
Well, it's obvious that he knew something was going on. Not necessarily that it actually happened, but that there were at least accusations and such. I'm not one of the people that is immediately throwing JoePa under the bus but I'm sorry, if one of your close friends and long standing coaches on your staff is accused of something like this, you don't just report it to your boss and then go on like it's all taken care of. JoePa may have done everything he was supposed to do in terms of being Sandusky's boss, but people are being either naive or ignorant if they think JoePa did everything in his power.

The man knew something was going on, and let everyone else "handle it". This is one of the most powerful men in the state. I'm a nobody, and I can't imagine standing by and just assume all is well, especially if it was a good friend being accused of something so serious.

Santonio10
06-14-2012, 08:48 AM
Well, it's obvious that he knew something was going on. Not necessarily that it actually happened, but that there were at least accusations and such. I'm not one of the people that is immediately throwing JoePa under the bus but I'm sorry, if one of your close friends and long standing coaches on your staff is accused of something like this, you don't just report it to your boss and then go on like it's all taken care of. JoePa may have done everything he was supposed to do in terms of being Sandusky's boss, but people are being either naive or ignorant if they think JoePa did everything in his power.

The man knew something was going on, and let everyone else "handle it". This is one of the most powerful men in the state. I'm a nobody, and I can't imagine standing by and just assume all is well, especially if it was a good friend being accused of something so serious.

Interfering with an investigation is against the law. If Joe was to keep checking in with the police he is interfering. Should Joe have done more, yes and he said it himself, "with the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more." Maybe its just me, but I dont think it's wrong of him to assume that the head of the police would be doing his job. This was an administrative f*** up and it's as simple as that. It does not rest on the head of Paterno, even if he didn't check in with Spanier/Curley/Schultz. In my opinion, Schultz is the one to blame.

iowatreat54
06-14-2012, 10:46 AM
Interfering with an investigation is against the law. If Joe was to keep checking in with the police he is interfering. Should Joe have done more, yes and he said it himself, "with the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more." Maybe its just me, but I dont think it's wrong of him to assume that the head of the police would be doing his job. This was an administrative f*** up and it's as simple as that. It does not rest on the head of Paterno, even if he didn't check in with Spanier/Curley/Schultz. In my opinion, Schultz is the one to blame.

Oh, I absolutely think they are way more to blame than JoePa. I just don't understand people (not you, but others in general) who think JoePa is 100% innocent of any wrong doing and that he did everything in his power to either put a stop to any horrible acts on Sandusky's part, or to prove his innocence. In the grand scheme of the entire situation and in relative terms, he spent 15 minutes telling someone and then washed his hands of it.

But to your point about interfering with a police investigation, do you really think if someone of JoePa's stature kept bringing it up that someone like Schultz would arrest Paterno for interfering? Let's say **** was going on and Schultz was covering it up, wouldn't arresting Paterno just bring national media attention to it? And if he wasn't covering up and nothing was going on, you really think Schultz would still arrest him? This isn't like any normal case or circumstances given the people involved. While it may be the law, different rules apply. And especially if I'm Paterno, I know that my power and visibility would bring attention to the matter, so if I have to get arrested to expose a cover up of someone raping children, you absolutely do it 100% of the time no questions asked.

Santonio10
06-14-2012, 07:30 PM
Just wanted to share this to end the speculation by that bum Bernstein and Joe's "secret" will.

http://citizensvoice.com/news/paterno-family-releases-will-1.1330014

Santonio10
06-19-2012, 08:52 AM
It looks like the case will be turned over to the jury to make a decision on Thursday. The sooner this is over the better

K Train
06-19-2012, 09:08 AM
sandusky is always smiling, its ****** up.

i wouldnt be surprised if the old bastard off'd himself before hes incarcerated for good

Giantsfan1080
06-19-2012, 11:59 AM
He doesn't think he did anything wrong. He's not going to off himself. He's a sick sick sick person.

descendency
06-19-2012, 02:36 PM
I honestly hope they make sure to keep him alive before they throw him into the federal prison where he gets a (hot) pink jumpsuit with a hole cut out in the anus area. He'll make a lot of friends that way.

WCH
06-20-2012, 02:07 PM
He doesn't think he did anything wrong. He's not going to off himself. He's a sick sick sick person.

This, this this.

The guy isn't like you and me. He might even enjoy the stuff that goes on in prison. I say that if he does want to off himself, let him off himself. But like Giantsfan said, he won't.

Prowler
06-22-2012, 09:25 PM
Hey, there is still justice in America. Guilty on 45 of 48 counts.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8087028/penn-state-nittany-lions-jerry-sandusky-convicted-45-counts-sex-abuse-trial

Sandusky, a 68-year-old retired defensive coach who was once Paterno's heir apparent, was found guilty of 45 of 48 counts. He faces life in prison at sentencing, which is weeks away.

Sandusky showed little emotion as the verdict was read. The judge ordered him to be taken to the county jail to await sentencing in about three months.

descendency
06-22-2012, 09:28 PM
3 MONTHS?!?! Just sentence him to life in prison now and get on with it.

Prowler
06-22-2012, 09:33 PM
it gives him time to kill himself first.

descendency
06-22-2012, 09:43 PM
it gives him time to kill himself first.

**** that. I want him bent over and raped, repeated, by big men in prison.

These kinds of people don't deserve suicide.

MidwayMonster31
06-22-2012, 09:52 PM
At least this gives some closure to the people involved in all of this. At least Penn State and all of Happy Valley can move on. Btw, good luck Bill O'Brien.

Prowler
06-22-2012, 09:52 PM
sadly, he would probably like that because it would make him feel like a kid and he'd become accustomed to it over time.

Ngatachance92
06-22-2012, 10:12 PM
If they started chopping nuts off less sick ***** would be doing this ****, if nothing else it would stop repeat offenders.

Nalej
06-22-2012, 10:16 PM
Burn in Hell. Sick ****.

NotMyJob
06-23-2012, 12:13 AM
put a bullet in him.


yes?

Mufasa
06-23-2012, 12:40 AM
**** that. I want him bent over and raped, repeated, by big men in prison.
He won't be touched in prison. Child molesters are the most targeted among inmates, so they're usually kept in protective custody to help prevent outbreaks. Add to that his high profile, and he has virtually no chance of being harmed in prison.

Ngatachance92
06-23-2012, 12:45 AM
They should make that a stipulation of his sentencing that he spend his time in gen pop. Personally, I would send him to Em City.

This would be his cell mate:
http://chanceplus1.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Adewale-Akinnuoye-Agabaje-As-ADEBISI-On-HBOs-Oz.gif

1funguy
06-23-2012, 06:49 AM
Put him in with the "popular" crowd.

JoeJoeBrown
06-23-2012, 09:11 AM
At least this gives some closure to the people involved in all of this. At least Penn State and all of Happy Valley can move on. Btw, good luck Bill O'Brien.

This is closure for justice on Sandusky.

This case is far from over for PSU and the people at PSU that covered it up.

I'm not kidding when I say damages that PSU has to pay to Sandusky's victims that were raped after 2001 could be in the 9 figure range. Hundred's of millions because the most powerful at the school did nothing to stop the guy even though they knew he was committing these crimes. They didn't even ban him from campus.

Santonio10
06-23-2012, 12:13 PM
This is closure for justice on Sandusky.

This case is far from over for PSU and the people at PSU that covered it up.

I'm not kidding when I say damages that PSU has to pay to Sandusky's victims that were raped after 2001 could be in the 9 figure range. Hundred's of millions because the most powerful at the school did nothing to stop the guy even though they knew he was committing these crimes. They didn't even ban him from campus.

Joe Paterno tried to ban him only to be denied by Spanier, because JS was no longer an employee of the university at te time. Penn State Will not be the ones paying the victims, that will be Sandusky.

I'm glad that he was found guilty and will be spending the rest of his life in prison. I can only hope that the aftermath is not as roug as November and the past week have been

WCH
06-23-2012, 01:02 PM
The fact is apparently that he was raping kids on campus right up until the past few years, even after he was no longer "an employee." The school knew he was hanging around.

That looks pretty bad for PSU.

JoeJoeBrown
06-23-2012, 06:56 PM
Joe Paterno tried to ban him only to be denied by Spanier, because JS was no longer an employee of the university at te time. Penn State Will not be the ones paying the victims, that will be Sandusky.

I'm glad that he was found guilty and will be spending the rest of his life in prison. I can only hope that the aftermath is not as roug as November and the past week have been

Dude, you drink a lot of blue flavored Kool-Aid.

PSU is on the hook for at least tens, and if I'm right, hundreds of millions of dollars.

The President and CFO said in an email that it wouldn't be "humane" to turn Jerry in. Humane to turn in a pedophile homosexual rapist. That raped a kid in the football team's lockerroom shower. And likely raped a lot more there as well.

He had an office on CAMPUS up until last year. He had a PSU phone number. He had free and clear access to the football facilities and the rest of campus. He had a luxury box to the games, including this last season!

PSU is extremely culpable here.

Could you point me to the source where it says JoePa tried to ban Jerry from campus?

It might be in the grand jury testimony, but I couldn't read it all. It alternated from giving me tired head to making me want to puke. Not fun reading.

Bulldogs
06-23-2012, 07:11 PM
I pretty much agree with all JJB's posts on this matter.

Santonio10
06-23-2012, 08:11 PM
Dude, you drink a lot of blue flavored Kool-Aid.

PSU is on the hook for at least tens, and if I'm right, hundreds of millions of dollars.

The President and CFO said in an email that it wouldn't be "humane" to turn Jerry in. Humane to turn in a pedophile homosexual rapist. That raped a kid in the football team's lockerroom shower. And likely raped a lot more there as well.

He had an office on CAMPUS up until last year. He had a PSU phone number. He had free and clear access to the football facilities and the rest of campus. He had a luxury box to the games, including this last season!

PSU is extremely culpable here.

Could you point me to the source where it says JoePa tried to ban Jerry from campus?

It might be in the grand jury testimony, but I couldn't read it all. It alternated from giving me tired head to making me want to puke. Not fun reading.

Sure PSU will owe them a lot of money if they are found to have covered it up. Right now, there isn't enough evidence to support the cover up theory, it's as simple as that. You really think that if Curley, Spanier and Schultz knew that he was a pedophile that they would let him roam free on campus? Doesn't make sense to me.

It all comes down to what McQueary told them when he met with them after the shower incident. He's changed his story so many times now that it's really hard to know what the hell he told them.

descendency
06-23-2012, 10:16 PM
You really think that if Curley, Spanier and Schultz knew that he was a pedophile that they would let him roam free on campus? Doesn't make sense to me.

I agree with you it doesn't make sense, but let me offer something that makes just as little sense.

In 1999, Jerry Sandusky (54) retired from coaching football. The man he was to replace, Joe Paterno (71), was at retirement age and even if he didn't retire there were numerous schools that would normally line up for his services. Jerry Sandusky built the defense that won two national titles (82, 86). He was the defensive coach at LB U...

At his retirement ceremony, Joe Paterno, a friend of 30 years, spoke for a very short period and left shortly after speaking. What happened that Joe Paterno didn't want to be associated with him?

Isn't that equally odd? It really doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe that's the wrong question to ask. Maybe the question is simpler. Why was he retiring and why was no one else pursuing him? The answer (in my opinion) is also simple. In 1999, he was told he would not be the next head coach at Penn State and in 1998, Jerry Sandusky was (first) accused of "misconduct" with an underage male.

Simply connecting the dots, one has to believe that Penn State (or someone) knew that Jerry Sandusky was toxic in 1998. What does "toxic" mean? I don't know, but I find it hard to believe that Jerry Sandusky was doing a lot of "bad" things. (more bad things = more likely to get caught). It was more likely that he was molesting children at that point than anything else.

Whatever they knew or didn't know, they knew enough to know that there was a problem and that Sandusky wasn't the man they wanted leading a football program with an aging coach (who knew he'd coach another 13 years?).

It's also very interesting how little interest for his services cropped up after his "retirement" in 1999. I'm not saying that everyone knew he was raping boys, but I do think people outside of PSU knew he was a screwed up person.

Santonio10
06-24-2012, 08:43 AM
I've heard that JoePa was upset with JS because he was spending a lot more time with the Second Mile which was interfering with his coaching duties so JoePa suggested taking the retirement package, since he was qualified for it. JS had everything he wanted for his horribly disgusting crimes, so why wouldnt he retire? Why would he go anywehere else if he had everything right there? If Joe knew he was a pedophile, he wouldn't have had him around. I can say that with confidence. Maybe Joe thought he was weird but i bet he he didnt suspect that his friend of 30 years was a serial homosexual pedophile.

JoeJoeBrown
06-24-2012, 03:39 PM
I've heard that JoePa was upset with JS because he was spending a lot more time with the Second Mile which was interfering with his coaching duties so JoePa suggested taking the retirement package, since he was qualified for it. JS had everything he wanted for his horribly disgusting crimes, so why wouldnt he retire? Why would he go anywehere else if he had everything right there? If Joe knew he was a pedophile, he wouldn't have had him around. I can say that with confidence. Maybe Joe thought he was weird but i bet he he didnt suspect that his friend of 30 years was a serial homosexual pedophile.

You are revising history with yours and others opinions, not facts. We don't know why JS retired. The fact is, the guy retired while in still in his prime as a potential premiere HC candidate. He retired after getting caught molesting a boy, where charges were not brought by the DA for very vague reasons, despite the investigating officer wanting to press charges.

The fact is, JoePa on 2001 was told that JS was molesting a boy in the locker room shower. That's in the court testimony. JoePa said it. McQueary said it. Both under oath. They tried to be vague, but it's there. He was told. He knew. He did not do anything but the bare minimum and that was tell his superiors. That's it. He knew and he did nothing to stop it.

The guy was a fantastic coach, a very charitable man, and overall a very good and giving person. But JoePa completely screwed up wrt Sandusky. He enabled the guy by not bringing his full power down against him, and JoePa's power was huge. It does not damn the man, but it does show him to be a flawed person, just like the rest of us. Do not deify the guy. He was just a man.

iowatreat54
06-24-2012, 05:29 PM
Santonio, you do realize that just the fact that some of this happened in a PSU owned facility means PSU can and will get sued and have to pay a ton of money, right? It doesn't matter if there was or wasn't a cover up, or how it was handled. Someone at PSU gave Sandusky access to their facilities, regardless if he was an employee or not, and are therefore liable for anything that happens in those facilities. That alone will get their pants sued off.

MassNole
06-24-2012, 06:57 PM
Santonio, you do realize that just the fact that some of this happened in a PSU owned facility means PSU can and will get sued and have to pay a ton of money, right? It doesn't matter if there was or wasn't a cover up, or how it was handled. Someone at PSU gave Sandusky access to their facilities, regardless if he was an employee or not, and are therefore liable for anything that happens in those facilities. That alone will get their pants sued off.
And talk about deep, deep pockets for some enterprising personal injury lawyers to go after.

Santonio10
06-25-2012, 05:35 AM
Santonio, you do realize that just the fact that some of this happened in a PSU owned facility means PSU can and will get sued and have to pay a ton of money, right? It doesn't matter if there was or wasn't a cover up, or how it was handled. Someone at PSU gave Sandusky access to their facilities, regardless if he was an employee or not, and are therefore liable for anything that happens in those facilities. That alone will get their pants sued off.

Yeah I just figured since the vast majority of these assaults took place in Sandusky's house that he and the second mile would be the ones getting sued before anyone else. PSU has deeper pockets though

Santonio10
06-25-2012, 05:45 AM
You are revising history with yours and others opinions, not facts. We don't know why JS retired. The fact is, the guy retired while in still in his prime as a potential premiere HC candidate. He retired after getting caught molesting a boy, where charges were not brought by the DA for very vague reasons, despite the investigating officer wanting to press charges.

The fact is, JoePa on 2001 was told that JS was molesting a boy in the locker room shower. That's in the court testimony. JoePa said it. McQueary said it. Both under oath. They tried to be vague, but it's there. He was told. He knew. He did not do anything but the bare minimum and that was tell his superiors. That's it. He knew and he did nothing to stop it.

The guy was a fantastic coach, a very charitable man, and overall a very good and giving person. But JoePa completely screwed up wrt Sandusky. He enabled the guy by not bringing his full power down against him, and JoePa's power was huge. It does not damn the man, but it does show him to be a flawed person, just like the rest of us. Do not deify the guy. He was just a man.

Descendancy posted his opinion of what he thought happened so I just posted mine. I don't understand what's wrong with that.

Grizzlegom
06-25-2012, 10:27 AM
The guy was a fantastic coach, a very charitable man, and overall a very good and giving person. But JoePa completely screwed up wrt Sandusky. He enabled the guy by not bringing his full power down against him, and JoePa's power was huge. It does not damn the man, but it does show him to be a flawed person, just like the rest of us. Do not deify the guy. He was just a man.

I applaud you for this paragraph and I think this is how most everyone should feel about it. It pains me to see people say this one thing ruins Joe's entire reputation/legacy but it's also ridiculously ludicrous to believe he didn't make a mistake here. Overall though, good to see someone sit back and express an objectified view and not go off the deep end for/against him wrt this situation.

+rep good sir.

Santonio10
06-25-2012, 11:27 AM
I applaud you for this paragraph and I think this is how most everyone should feel about it. It pains me to see people say this one thing ruins Joe's entire reputation/legacy but it's also ridiculously ludicrous to believe he didn't make a mistake here. Overall though, good to see someone sit back and express an objectified view and not go off the deep end for/against him wrt this situation.

+rep good sir.

It pains me too, which is why I'm so quick to defend him. Sometimes it feels like everyone in the media wants Joe to be an evil old man and will go to any length to prove so, but it's simply not true. I apologize if anyone feels that I'm going overboard. It is not my intent to show that he didn't do anything wrong, I'm just trying to show that there is another way of thinking about why he acted the way he did.

iowatreat54
06-25-2012, 04:56 PM
I applaud you for this paragraph and I think this is how most everyone should feel about it. It pains me to see people say this one thing ruins Joe's entire reputation/legacy but it's also ridiculously ludicrous to believe he didn't make a mistake here. Overall though, good to see someone sit back and express an objectified view and not go off the deep end for/against him wrt this situation.

+rep good sir.

I agree. I don't think it was some huge cover up conspiracy, or at least not a wide spread one including Joe Pa and the football program. In everything else but this one instance, Paterno was a great man. But he made a huge mistake that will unfortunately tarnish his legacy perhaps forever.

What I don't agree with are the people who can't accept that Paterno screwed up, or even that he did everything in his power. That just isn't true and to think otherwise is ignorant, but understandable given the love and respect Joe Pa built not only in the PSU community, but across the football community.

WCH
06-25-2012, 05:30 PM
Young children were traumatized, people in power knew about it, they could have stopped it, and they didn't.

I'm sure that these guys are all generally nice people. That doesn't change the fact that almost everybody dropped the ball, and they did it to protect their careers. It's fairly obvious that when McQueary (and some members of the maintenance staff) said "I saw Sandusky ass-raping a young kid in the showers" they all took a collective ****, and then did the minimum that they had to in order to claim plausible deniability. McQueary doesn't score any points by not being an all-out whistleblower.

I can understand that they weren't eager to put their jobs on the line (and make no mistake, everybody was going to lose their job the second that this scandal hit the press -- whether it was in 2011 or the late 1990s). That doesn't make it justified.

Santonio10
06-25-2012, 08:43 PM
Young children were traumatized, people in power knew about it, they could have stopped it, and they didn't.

I'm sure that these guys are all generally nice people. That doesn't change the fact that almost everybody dropped the ball, and they did it to protect their careers. It's fairly obvious that when McQueary (and some members of the maintenance staff) said "I saw Sandusky ass-raping a young kid in the showers" they all took a collective ****, and then did the minimum that they had to in order to claim plausible deniability. McQueary doesn't score any points by not being an all-out whistleblower.

I can understand that they weren't eager to put their jobs on the line (and make no mistake, everybody was going to lose their job the second that this scandal hit the press -- whether it was in 2011 or the late 1990s). That doesn't make it justified.

The boy that McQueary walked in on in the shower with JS to this day denies that anything happened with Sandusky that night (If I'm not mistaken). Maybe they just thought that it wasn't possible for JS to be the monster that he turned out to be. Given that Schultz knew about the '98 investigation, he really dropped the ball. I don't understand what was going through his head. I have no idea if Curley or Paterno knew about '98, but they should have been more vigilant about it regardless. Given JS's status in the community, maybe they thought that there was no way that he was pedophile. Who knows.

I don't really buy the whole cover up story. What would they have possibly gained by covering it up?

Rabscuttle
06-30-2012, 12:18 PM
It's unfortunate that Curley, Schultz and Spanier didn't have the personal ethics or strength of character to stand up to Paterno and take what they knew about the abuse to the authorities. They will ultimately pay for this while JoePa gets off scott free. Sometimes death is to good for a person.

StickSkills
06-30-2012, 01:55 PM
There's more to this, and I'll wait for the Freeh report to come out before making any opinion. Until then, IDGAF.

Prowler
06-30-2012, 01:59 PM
Here's a couple links with the same content to the email story.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--joe-paterno-role-jerry-sandusky-coverup-grows.html

In an alleged email dated Feb. 26, 2001, Schultz wrote to Curley that he assumes Curley's "got the ball" about a three-part plan to "talk with the subject asap regarding the future appropriate use of the University facility," … "contacting the chair of the charitable organization" and "contacting the Department of Welfare," according to a source with knowledge of the case.

It would have been better to skip directly to the third action and let the welfare authorities do the meeting and informing, but this should've been enough to end Sandusky's reign of terror.

Except that Curley sent an email to Schultz and school president Graham Spanier on Feb. 27, 2001, that changed everything.

"After giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe yesterday, I am uncomfortable with what we agreed were the next steps. I am having trouble with going to everyone but the person involved. I would be more comfortable meeting with the person and tell them about the information we received and tell them we are aware of the first situation," Curley's email said, according to CNN.

It's unclear why Curley suggested that Sandusky (the "person involved") wouldn't be contacted when Schultz's email told Curley to "talk with the subject asap." But the bottom line is that child welfare services was never contacted. And Sandusky, convicted earlier this month on 45 counts of molestation, continued to stalk and abuse the area's disadvantaged boys for seven more years.

The email is devastating on multiple levels, perhaps most for Paterno, who had escaped some measure of scorn thus far by playing the, in-hindsight-I-should've-done-more angle. Paterno, who won more games than any other major college football coach, died at age 85 in January of lung cancer.

According to Curley's email, Paterno participated more than he ever admitted, including likely talking Curley – and thus the others – out of the plan to turn Sandusky over to authorities.

Take a second for that one to sink in.

ESPN version
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8114416/report-former-penn-state-officials-exchanged-emails-jerry-sandusky-allegations-2001

The emails show athletic director Tim Curley and retired vice president Gary Schultz intended to report the allegation, then reconsidered. Spanier responded that he was "supportive" of their plan, but he worried they might "become vulnerable for not having reported it."

The CNN report cites an email from Schultz to Curley on Feb. 26, 2001, 16 days after graduate assistant Mike McQueary told Paterno about the shower assault. Schultz suggests bringing the allegation to the attention of Sandusky, Sandusky's charity and the Department of Welfare, which investigates suspected child abuse, according to the report.

But the next night, Curley sent an email to Spanier, saying that after thinking about it more and talking to Paterno, he was "uncomfortable" with that plan and wanted to work with Sandusky before contacting authorities, the report said.

If Sandusky is cooperative, Curley's email said, "we would work with him. .... If not, we do not have a choice and will inform the two groups," according to the report.

Spanier wrote back and agreed with that approach, calling it "humane and a reasonable way to proceed," according to the report. But he also worried about the consequences.

"The only downside for us is if message isn't 'heard' and acted upon and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it, but that can be assessed down the road," the email said, according to CNN.

Spanier's attorney didn't immediately return a call from The Associated Press seeking comment Saturday.

CJSchneider
06-30-2012, 03:25 PM
It's unfortunate that Curley, Schultz and Spanier didn't have the personal ethics or strength of character to stand up to Paterno and take what they knew about the abuse to the authorities. They will ultimately pay for this while JoePa gets off scott free. Sometimes death is to good for a person.

Here's a couple links with the same content to the email story.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--joe-paterno-role-jerry-sandusky-coverup-grows.html


In an alleged email dated Feb. 26, 2001, Schultz wrote to Curley that he assumes Curley's "got the ball" about a three-part plan to "talk with the subject asap regarding the future appropriate use of the University facility," … "contacting the chair of the charitable organization" and "contacting the Department of Welfare," according to a source with knowledge of the case.

It would have been better to skip directly to the third action and let the welfare authorities do the meeting and informing, but this should've been enough to end Sandusky's reign of terror.

Except that Curley sent an email to Schultz and school president Graham Spanier on Feb. 27, 2001, that changed everything.

"After giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe yesterday, I am uncomfortable with what we agreed were the next steps. I am having trouble with going to everyone but the person involved.



In case I have missed a few things in regards to the trial, I can see this as being something else. I see Paterno as being the person who wanted to be upfront with Sandusky and start there and get things straight from square one, rather than be wrong and end up with egg on their face.

Complex
06-30-2012, 03:33 PM
Freeh’s investigators are also exploring the circumstances surrounding Paterno’s decision to eventually hire McQueary as an assistant coach, the person familiar with the investigation said. McQueary, a former quarterback for Paterno at Penn State, has testified under oath that when he first contacted Paterno to inform him of what he had seen in the showers, Paterno assumed he was calling to ask for a job, and that Paterno brusquely told him he would not be hired.

McQueary was ultimately hired over another, more experienced candidate, and investigators are curious about whether that development came as a consequence of what he told Paterno that morning in 2001.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/sports/ncaafootball/paterno-may-have-influenced-decision-not-to-report-sandusky-e-mails-indicate.html?pagewanted=all

Giantsfan1080
06-30-2012, 03:38 PM
Shocking that Paterno was involved in the coverup. I don't know why people were even defending him the whole time when everyone knew he had the most power at that university. No way to spin this now.

Smooth Criminal
06-30-2012, 06:16 PM
I can't believe anyone is surprised he was involved. It's really not that hard to see. He was clearly the most influential person on campus. And by his own grand jury testimony he said he knew something "of a sexual nature" was happening.

The only people left denying his involvement are Penn State fans with their head in the ground. As someone that grew up in Pennsylvania, and really considered attending PSU, I can say I had a great deal of respect for Paterno before this. I'm not some biased hater, but I simply don't understand how anyone could even attempt to defend him at this point.

If I'm Penn State I take down the statue, remove his name from everything, and start looking for a new hero. This truly is that terrible of an offense in my mind.

Sandusky going to jail should not be the end of this. He's the predator, but there are plenty more people who need to be held accountable for their actions in this case.

WCH
06-30-2012, 09:58 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/sports/ncaafootball/paterno-may-have-influenced-decision-not-to-report-sandusky-e-mails-indicate.html?pagewanted=all

Well, that's interesting.

Smooth Criminal
06-30-2012, 10:25 PM
Harrisburg news reporting that legal experts saying PSU could receive death penalty for this. Article basically says it would be an institutional control issue because Paterno had more power than the AD, his supervisor.

That's too far for me. Why punish the program just get rid of anyone that had anything to do with it and move forward. This hurts the future students and people that had nothing to do with it. Get the guys responsible.

WCH
06-30-2012, 10:30 PM
Harrisburg news reporting that legal experts saying PSU could receive death penalty for this. Article basically says it would be an institutional control issue because Paterno had more power than the AD, his supervisor.

That's too far for me. Why punish the program just get rid of anyone that had anything to do with it and move forward. This hurts the future students and people that had nothing to do with it. Get the guys responsible.

I'm not endorsing a "Death Penalty" for the program, by any means, but I will say this: as somebody who attended a MAC bottom-feeder, I really get annoyed by the "this hurts the future students" argument; unless we're speaking in terms of the financial impact (in which case I still don't have much sympathy). My college experience wasn't even slightly impacted by the fact that my college football team couldn't find it's ass with both hands.

CJSchneider
06-30-2012, 11:34 PM
I can't believe anyone is surprised he was involved.

My shock, honestly, is that there was a cover-up period. As an educator, I can't even think of what lengths I would go to to see someone who I knew had done that to a student be brought to justice. From all I have read, the number of people who turned a blind-eye is not only sickening, but exists on such a level I can only logically ask "Did they really know?" I say that as someone who knows it is employment suicide to harbor that kind of info with out telling people until something is done, to include going to that person - face to face.

descendency
07-01-2012, 03:15 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/sports/ncaafootball/paterno-may-have-influenced-decision-not-to-report-sandusky-e-mails-indicate.html?pagewanted=all

In related news:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/magazine/alex-white-professional-snitch.html

"A snitch's dilemma".

My shock, honestly, is that there was a cover-up period. As an educator, I can't even think of what lengths I would go to to see someone who I knew had done that to a student be brought to justice. From all I have read, the number of people who turned a blind-eye is not only sickening, but exists on such a level I can only logically ask "Did they really know?" I say that as someone who knows it is employment suicide to harbor that kind of info with out telling people until something is done, to include going to that person - face to face.

In no way am I trying to justify it, but I do think the other side of the coins is that it is career suicide in football (or team sports in general) to break ranks and go public with anything negative.

An assistant coach came forward about how his former coach tried to sweep an investigation under the rug by blaming a dead guy (18 year old freshman) for everything. He was fired and since has had 0 success even getting people to return his calls.

The coach was also fired, for lying and slandering the deceased player. (this was some small school basketball program... I forget which)

Obviously, this is deplorable. I'm not saying there is a justification for it, but you have some young people (like McQueary) who would basically have to sacrifice their careers. That's a tough spot to be in.

Smooth Criminal
07-01-2012, 06:51 AM
I'm not endorsing a "Death Penalty" for the program, by any means, but I will say this: as somebody who attended a MAC bottom-feeder, I really get annoyed by the "this hurts the future students" argument; unless we're speaking in terms of the financial impact (in which case I still don't have much sympathy). My college experience wasn't even slightly impacted by the fact that my college football team couldn't find it's ass with both hands.

Football doesn't have to be a part of any college experience for it to be a good one, but I can definitely say OSU football was a fun portion of mine.

I just don't see any reason to punish a program for things that didn't give a competitive advantage. Just punish those responsible.

The program shouldnt get the death penalty, sandusky should.

Smooth Criminal
07-01-2012, 06:54 AM
My shock, honestly, is that there was a cover-up period. As an educator, I can't even think of what lengths I would go to to see someone who I knew had done that to a student be brought to justice. From all I have read, the number of people who turned a blind-eye is not only sickening, but exists on such a level I can only logically ask "Did they really know?" I say that as someone who knows it is employment suicide to harbor that kind of info with out telling people until something is done, to include going to that person - face to face.

It's certainly employment suicide to get caught covering something like this up. But it's also pretty terrible for your image to have something like this come out. Of course it would have only probably been one year of negative headlines and reports until the fit thing is done and Sandusky would have gone to jail, but at the time I can understand how people with this much power think they really could keep it covered up.

Smooth Criminal
07-01-2012, 06:56 AM
In related news:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/magazine/alex-white-professional-snitch.html

"A snitch's dilemma".



In no way am I trying to justify it, but I do think the other side of the coins is that it is career suicide in football (or team sports in general) to break ranks and go public with anything negative.

An assistant coach came forward about how his former coach tried to sweep an investigation under the rug by blaming a dead guy (18 year old freshman) for everything. He was fired and since has had 0 success even getting people to return his calls.

The coach was also fired, for lying and slandering the deceased player. (this was some small school basketball program... I forget which)

Obviously, this is deplorable. I'm not saying there is a justification for it, but you have some young people (like McQueary) who would basically have to sacrifice their careers. That's a tough spot to be in.

I completely understand McQueary's position. He tried to do something, given not enou, by telling his bosses. But once they decided to do nothing about it, I can understand how he would be scared to go against the company line.

Again, not that it's ok or even close to what I would have done, but I can definitely see the string of logic that led him to this.

Santonio10
07-01-2012, 09:29 AM
If there's anything that I learned from this whole mess it's don't rush to judgement. These were emails that were selectively leaked by someone to create a story. By no means is this the whole story. I will reserve any judgement until all facts are known, and I hope you guys will do the same.

Giantsfan1080
07-01-2012, 10:44 AM
Geez Santonio you're a joke like the BWI Rivals board at this point. Get over yourselves your hero was a douche.

Santonio10
07-01-2012, 12:26 PM
Geez Santonio you're a joke like the BWI Rivals board at this point. Get over yourselves your hero was a douche.

Thanks man that's really kind of you to say. Real classy

Giantsfan1080
07-01-2012, 07:29 PM
Yeah it is. Just as classy as your school covering up a human being that should rot in hell. Keep making excuses.

Rabscuttle
07-01-2012, 07:41 PM
Thanks man that's really kind of you to say. Real classy

He may just be having trouble expressing himself regarding the enabling behavior you are exhibiting.

Santonio10
07-01-2012, 08:24 PM
He may just be having trouble expressing himself regarding the enabling behavior you are exhibiting.

What about my behavior is enabling?

WCH
07-01-2012, 09:03 PM
If there's anything that I learned from this whole mess it's don't rush to judgement. These were emails that were selectively leaked by someone to create a story. By no means is this the whole story. I will reserve any judgement until all facts are known, and I hope you guys will do the same.

Yes, because sometimes you rush to assume that a guy is a great guy and could have done no wrong, only to find out that he was involved in a cover-up of horrific crimes.

Oh wait, I guess that's not what you were going for...

Santonio10
07-01-2012, 09:20 PM
Yeah it is. Just as classy as your school covering up a human being that should rot in hell. Keep making excuses.

Please explain to me what exactly from those e-mails is hard evidence of a cover up? The KEY to this whole thing is what McQueary told them. He has changed his story multiple time regarding what he saw that night in the PSU locker room. The kid who he walked in on still denies anything happened, but clearly that means nothing. Everyone takes McQueary's word for gospel when he clearly doesn't know even know what he saw. Instead of questioning McQueary and his story, everyone piles on a man who is now dead and cannot defend himself.

After speaking with Paterno, Curley decides that he should talk to Sandusky first about what information was reported to them. Do you know what that tells me? That Paterno thought it was right to bring this information to the person being accused. Maybe it's just me, but they does NOT tell me that he wanted to cover it up. Maybe it was for his own selfish reasons, because as dependency showed, falsely reporting something like this would obviously make them look bad (not nearly as bad as they do now for not reporting it to police), but them waiting to talk to Sandusky first does not equate to a cover up. The key piece of information missing is the conversation between Paterno and Curley.

Hindsight is 20/20. Sure, now that Sandusky is in prison after being found guilty we can sit here and say that they knew. At the time that this event happened, they weren't aware of the monster that Sandusky turned out to be. It's easy to sit here and say that they knew for sure that he was a child molester now after he has been convicted, but in 2001 they didn't know and how bad would it look of they accused this man of something like this and he was innocent? The '98 investigation was dropped. Sure they knew about it, but they found NOTHING on Sandusky, hence why it was dropped. Given the information they had at the time they decided to ban him from bringing children onto school property, assuming that the man was not a molester.

If McQueary really reported to them that he had seen a child getting raped THEY WOULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING ABOUT IT. If McQueary had seen rape he would/should have called the police. But no, let's believe the guy who has changed his story multiple times and had his testimony in the Sandusky case regarding what he saw discredited by Dr. Dranov (the person who he talked to along with his father prior to talking to Pateno) and instead blame the dead guy that gets the most readers. Again, something important I brought up earlier, if they knew for certain that Sandusky was a child molester, what did any of these men gain by covering it up?

Remember, it wasn't Curley, Schultz or Paterno's decision on what action to take. It was Graham Spanier who made the final call. I'm not saying Paterno is god and that he is the greatest person to ever live and that he doesn't deserve SOME of the blame. He should have done more, as I have said numerous times. But, do you honestly believe every article you read on this subject?

These men clearly made a poor decision, but it does not mean that they did it with bad intentions like many want to believe. Like I said earlier, hindsight is 20/20. I'm not making excuses. I'm trying to put together a LOGICAL series of events that lead this decision. I'm sorry but I just don't believe that all 4 of these men are that evil.

Santonio10
07-01-2012, 09:21 PM
Yes, because sometimes you rush to assume that a guy is a great guy and could have done no wrong, only to find out that he was involved in a cover-up of horrific crimes.

Oh wait, I guess that's not what you were going for...

I never said he did no wrong. I've said repeatedly that he should have done more.

Prowler
07-01-2012, 10:25 PM
let it go. they covered it all up or at the very best they decided not to dig any further into terrible allegations because they were afraid that it would make them look bad. there were multiple allegations and times where Joe Pa would have known. McQ and the other kid that the officer taped the Sandusky apology incidents were both things that he would have known about.

what it came down to was: looking out for the kid's best interests vs not wanting to tarnish their program. the program's interests won. who gives a **** about Paterno now. All the money that he donated might as well have went to victim's families since he was part of a system that allowed child rape to continue for years.

JoeJoeBrown
07-01-2012, 11:02 PM
I'm really disgusted by these powerful people that would deal with a rapist of children so casually. Any sane human would know that the right thing to do would be to ensure that this man was removed from society and dealt with accordingly.

I have to assume that these men were sane, all or some. I can't believe that all of them were crazy and thought that Jerry was kinda harmless and should be scolded and put into timeout for a few weeks.

So what was their motivation to cover for this monster? They definitely covered for him in 2001 and likely did in 1998.

A) To keep the idealistic image of the great experiment alive?
B) the Second mile was a slush fund for the psu football program?
C) Sandusky had some other sort of dirt on all or some of them?

I'm going to guess all of the above.
Every major college program has its dirty underbelly of booster money getting funneled to players. Every single one. I'm guessing that the Second Mile was PSUs primary method for that. If enough eyes were poking around Sandusky and the second mile, then they may have been discovered.

This isn't a unique idea as its been all over the web since the scandal broke, but it really makes sense to me. Why would sane responsible adults otherwise cover up such a heinous monster? It had to be for a very big reason.

There is no doubt that the people that made these decisions were morally compromised in a very extreme way. There had to be huge reasons, reasons most likely even bigger than their jobs or careers, to cover up for Sandusky.

Motivations are key when looking at irrational behavior, especially by a group of high powered execs. Any other theories are welcome, but program destruction is the only thing that comes to mind to motivate a group like this to cover for Sandusky.

Smooth Criminal
07-02-2012, 07:59 AM
I don't need these emails to think there is damning evidence against Paterno. His own grand jury testimony, his own words under oath, say that he knew there was something of a sexual nature going on.

Thats enough for me. When you know something of sexual nature is going on you cant the do enough until its over. Call the police, call CNN, call the FBI, call every mother that has ever sent her child to a camp of his, put up signs on campus, make a website.

There were a million different things anyone that knew could have done something about it. I don't want to hear they all told their boss and it's their bosses fault. Anyone that knew could have done absolutely anything about it.

Therefore, I consider anyone that knew and didn't choose to do one of those things to be part of the coverup. And since we know Paterno has the most powerful man around Penn State, he certainly could have steered this thing in any direction, and the emails indicate he steered it to a cover up.

Another pretty good indicator that there's good evidence against Paterno is the fact that EVERYONE except Penn State fans has accepted that Paterno was very heavily involved.

Complex
07-02-2012, 01:18 PM
Records Suggest Penn State Officials Knew Sexual Nature of Sandusky Encounter
AP ImagesGary Schultz (left), Penn State's former senior vice president of finance and business, and Tim Curley, the athletic director on administrative leave, face charges of lying to a grand jury and failing to report allegations of child sexual abuse. Both have maintained their innocence.Enlarge Image
By Brad Wolverton
University Park, Pa.
Top Pennsylvania State University officials held a three-hour meeting to discuss Jerry Sandusky in 2001 over concerns about the former coach's behavior with a boy in the football showers. A law-firm billing record from that conversation describes a "report of suspected child abuse," according to a person with knowledge of an independent investigation into the matter.

The new information adds to a detailed report by CNN and suggests that several top Penn State administrators, despite their claims otherwise, knew about the sexual nature of the accusation against Mr. Sandusky. Their failure to report it to child-welfare agencies, which is required by Pennsylvania law, could lead to further charges in the case.

New evidence also suggests that Joe Paterno, the head football coach, may have played a role in the university's failure to notify outside authorities. Previously, he said that he had done his job by simply reporting concerns about Sandusky's behavior up the line.

Mr. Sandusky was charged with sexually abusing four more boys after the 2001 incident in Penn State's showers. Late last month, he was convicted of abusing 10 boys over 15 years.

According to e-mails read to CNN, Graham Spanier, Penn State's former president, and two other university officials—Gary Schultz, the former senior vice president of finance and business, and Tim Curley, the athletic director on administrative leave—agreed to take a "humane" approach in dealing with Mr. Sandusky following his alleged sexual encounter with a boy.

Instead of reporting the incident to outside investigators, administrators reportedly planned to ask Mr. Sandusky to seek counseling and said they would tell officials at the Second Mile, the charity where he met many of the children he would later abuse, about their concerns.

According to three people with knowledge of the investigation, including one person The Chronicle spoke to, Mr. Spanier acknowledged in an e-mail that Penn State could be in a weak position for not reporting the allegations against Mr. Sandusky.

"The only downside for us is if the message [to Sandusky] isn't 'heard' and acted upon, and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it," Mr. Spanier reportedly wrote in an e-mail to Mr. Schultz and Mr. Curley in late February 2001.

Mr. Schultz and Mr. Curley face charges of lying to a grand jury and failing to report allegations of child sexual abuse. A hearing in their case is scheduled for July 11. Both men have denied knowing about the sexual nature of the 2001 incident involving Mr. Sandusky, saying they believed it to be nothing more than "horsing around."

According to CNN, Mr. Schultz and Mr. Curley had initially drawn up plans that included notifying the Pennsylvania Department of Welfare about their concerns with the former assistant coach.

In an e-mail dated February 26, 2001, Mr. Schultz, who oversaw the campus police department at the time, wrote to Mr. Curley, outlining a three-part plan: "talk with the subject asap regarding the future appropriate use of the University facility,"... "contacting the chair of the charitable organization," and "contacting the Department of Welfare," according to a person with knowledge of the investigation.

The next day, Mr. Curley allegedly wrote to Mr. Spanier, saying he had spoken with Mr. Paterno and no longer wanted to contact the child-welfare office.

"After giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe yesterday, I am uncomfortable with what we agreed were the next steps," Mr. Curley wrote. "I am having trouble with going to everyone, but the person involved."

According to CNN, Mr. Curley then wrote to Mr. Spanier, saying he wanted to meet with Mr. Sandusky privately, tell him there's a problem, and that "we want to assist the individual to get professional help."

In the same e-mail, according to CNN, Mr. Curley also suggested that if Mr. Sandusky "is cooperative," Penn State "would work with him" to tell Second Mile. If not, Mr. Curley wrote, the university would inform both Second Mile and outside authorities.

The purported e-mails were discovered during an investigation by Louis J. Freeh, the former FBI director whose consulting company was hired last November by Penn State's Board of Trustees to examine the university's role in the scandal. Mr. Freeh's company is scheduled to release a report sometime in the coming weeks detailing who knew what about the former coach and why no one acted sooner to stop him.

Defending the Program
Those e-mails and other records suggest a disturbing pattern of how the university dealt with high-profile problems in football.

Mr. Paterno was often at the center of conversations related to disciplinary issues in the program, even when it wasn't his place to handle such problems. And according to documents obtained by The Chronicle, administrators at the highest levels made sure he got his way.

Letters and e-mails that one former top Penn State administrator provided to Mr. Freeh's investigators show that Mr. Spanier and Wendell V. Courtney, the university's general counsel, repeatedly intervened on Coach Paterno's behalf in an apparent attempt to quash problems.

One such incident happened in 2007, when six football players were charged with forcing their way into an off-campus apartment and beating up several fellow students. After the university received a police search warrant requesting any documents related to the case, Mr. Courtney removed four letters and memos from a file, claiming the information violated the players' rights to privacy.

In one letter, Philip J. Burlingame, the associate vice president for student affairs, had written to Shirley M. Kitchen, a state senator apparently concerned about the university's response to the incident. Mr. Burlingame wrote that the university viewed the alleged assault "as a very serious criminal incident," saying "we fully intend to do all we can to identify and properly adjudicate all Penn State students who were involved as perpetrators of these crimes." The letter did not name any of the players charged in the attacks or any of the students involved; it did, however, name one of their parents.

In another letter related to the case, Joe Puzycki, Penn State's assistant vice president for student affairs, described how Coach Paterno had a text message sent out to every football player, saying that if any of them went into the student-affairs office to respond to the university's code of conduct complaint in the matter, they would be "thrown off the team." After Mr. Puzycki asked for a copy of that text message, a student said he could not provide it. According to the student, Coach Paterno reportedly said, "if you had a problem with that, you could call him directly."

Mr. Spanier also became involved in the university’s disciplinary process in that case, helping schedule player interviews and organizing a meeting at his home with Mr. Paterno, Mr. Curley, Mr. Courtney, and the then-vice president of student affairs, Vicky Triponey. In a letter that Ms. Triponey wrote to Mr. Spanier ahead of that meeting, she expressed concerns that she was being pressured to alter discipline decisions involving football players.

"I am being forced into a meeting that seriously jeopardizes my ability to be an impartial appeal officer in our student discipline system and the Division of Student Affairs is being pressured to make decisions that go beyond the boundaries and jeopardize the integrity of our student discipline process," she wrote.

In an e-mail to Mr. Spanier and Mr. Curley, Mr. Courtney, the lawyer, said he had informed Ms. Triponey about how she should act in the meeting with Mr. Paterno, whose initials were JVP.

"I did note the possibility that JVP could try to negotiate at some level," he wrote, "and she should listen and try to keep comments to a bare minimum."

A Paterno Response
It is unclear how much Mr. Paterno may have intervened in the 2001 Sandusky investigation.

Mr. Paterno died of lung cancer in January. A family spokesman, Dan McGinn, told The New York Times on Sunday that there was no evidence that Mr. Paterno interfered with any investigation and that the e-mails among the university's top administrators in the Sandusky matter could be interpreted various ways.

"If Joe Paterno wanted to interfere, why did he report the incident immediately" to university officials? Mr. McGinn told the Times, adding that he was disturbed by what he called the "selective leaking" of the e-mails. "You are only seeing a piece of the puzzle."

In a statement, Wick Sollers, a lawyer for the Paterno family, said: "To be clear, the e-mails in question did not originate with Joe Paterno or go to him, as he never personally utilized e-mail.

"From the beginning, Joe Paterno warned against a rush to judgment in this case. Coach Paterno testified truthfully, to the best of his recollection, in the one brief appearance he made before the grand jury. As he testified, when informed of an incident involving Jerry Sandusky in 2001, Coach Paterno followed university procedures and promptly and fully informed his superiors. He believed the matter would be thoroughly and professionally investigated."

http://chronicle.com/article/Records-Raise-More-Questions/132725/

JoeJoeBrown
07-02-2012, 02:09 PM
http://chronicle.com/article/Records-Raise-More-Questions/132725/

This thing is going to get ugly. Especially as these scumbags try to save their skins by plea bargaining in exchange for more details.

StickSkills
07-02-2012, 02:52 PM
In related news:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/magazine/alex-white-professional-snitch.html

"A snitch's dilemma".



In no way am I trying to justify it, but I do think the other side of the coins is that it is career suicide in football (or team sports in general) to break ranks and go public with anything negative.

An assistant coach came forward about how his former coach tried to sweep an investigation under the rug by blaming a dead guy (18 year old freshman) for everything. He was fired and since has had 0 success even getting people to return his calls.

The coach was also fired, for lying and slandering the deceased player. (this was some small school basketball program... I forget which)

Obviously, this is deplorable. I'm not saying there is a justification for it, but you have some young people (like McQueary) who would basically have to sacrifice their careers. That's a tough spot to be in.

I wouldn't say Baylor is a small school program.

descendency
07-03-2012, 07:49 AM
I wouldn't say Baylor is a small school program.

I could swear when I heard the story it was about a division 2 program, but after reading the wikipedia page on it, it seems you are right about it being Baylor (which is obviously not a smalls school).

WCH
07-03-2012, 09:50 PM
In no way am I trying to justify it, but I do think the other side of the coins is that it is career suicide in football (or team sports in general) to break ranks and go public with anything negative.


I just saw this post. It reminds me of one of my college sociology classes. My prof had made a career out of studying "whistleblowers." During an interview, he asked one of them why more people don't blow the whistle on corruption. The guy responded: "If you want to be a whistleblower, you'd better have a rich wife."

It's career suicide. Period.

JoeJoeBrown
07-09-2012, 08:47 PM
Worst fans in the world? (http://bwi.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?SID=890&fid=36&style=2&tid=156181864&Page=1)

These guys are denialist scum. I hope that most PSU people do not identify with these POSes. You will be sickened if you read this board (That is if you are a decent human being). I can't believe that there is a collection of these people out there that are representing their university like this.

What's really nuts is that there is a PSU BoT guy that is just as crazy and he posts on that board.

Giantsfan1080
07-12-2012, 08:26 AM
Freeh report is out and it's bad for Paterno and Penn State.

JoeJoeBrown
07-12-2012, 08:39 AM
Freeh report is out and it's bad for Paterno and Penn State.

Here's the report. (http://i.usatoday.net/news/nation/2012-07-12-penn-state-freeh-report.pdf)

PSU needs a clean slate before the authorities do it for them.

Disgusting stuff. If I were in any way associated with PSU, I'd be frothing angry at the administrators and coaches for what went on at the school.

Particularly this quote from the report:

Our most saddening and sobering finding is the total disregard for the safety and welfare of Sandusky’s child victims by the most senior leaders at Penn State. The most powerful men at Penn State failed to take any steps for 14 years to protect the children who Sandusky victimized. Messrs. Spanier, Schultz, Paterno and Curley never demonstrated, through actions or words, any concern for the safety and well-being of Sandusky’s victims until after Sandusky’s arrest.

Also:

-A decision by Spanier, Schultz, Paterno and Curley to allow Sandusky to retire in 1999, not as a suspected child predator, but as a valued member of the Penn State football legacy, with future “visibility” at Penn State and ways “to continue to work with young people through Penn State,” essentially granting him license to bring boys to campus facilities for “grooming” as targets for his assaults. Sandusky retained unlimited access to University facilities until November 2011.
-A football program that did not fully participate in, or opted out, of some University programs, including Clery Act compliance. Like the rest of the University, the football program staff had not been trained in their Clery Act responsibilities and most had never heard of the Clery Act.
- A culture of reverence for the football program that is ingrained at all levels of the campus community.

Smooth Criminal
07-12-2012, 09:04 AM
So is this finally enough for the people that said we had to wait for all the facts? It was pretty obvious the entire time that the most powerful people had to know about this and worked to cover it up. Is this too much for even the most blinded Penn State fans to deny?

I'm not for a death penalty for this, but it's certainly in play. I'd rather see the rest of them in jail and Paterno's statue and name remove from campus. Truly remove any history and influence of these people and move on.

Giantsfan1080
07-12-2012, 09:07 AM
BWI is still defending Paterno and Co. I'm sure Santonio10 will be here eventually to do the same.

JoeJoeBrown
07-12-2012, 09:14 AM
BWI is still defending Paterno and Co. I'm sure Santonio10 will be here eventually to do the same.

BWI is a cesspool of humanity. I can't believe how insane the vast majority of those people are.

Also, I'm fine with the death penalty. Just give the current players a free pass to transfer. That program and school need to be cleansed immediately. The sooner and harsher the better.

Just look at the rationalization by BWI. Look at the school getting the second most in donations in their history this past year. That is sickening to me as it indicates that those willing to donate are hunkering down and being defensive instead of being proactive and wanting to clean house.

Giantsfan1080
07-12-2012, 09:17 AM
We'll see. The NCAA will probably punk out and not do anything.

Smooth Criminal
07-12-2012, 09:37 AM
I've never seen any fan base bury their heads in the sand more than this. There's just no reason to try to even think of ways to deny it. Paterno was involved, so we're many others. Clean house and move on.

iowatreat54
07-12-2012, 09:40 AM
I'm still undecided on the death penalty. I wouldn't be shocked or upset if it happened, but can't say that I'm 100% for it. Actually, if they got the death penalty, I feel like it would just be a huge headache for the Big Ten and other schools on top of an already giant black eye. You just know that other schools and conferences are going to associate this with the entire conference for YEARS.

Also, I enjoyed the letter from Paterno stating this has nothing to do with the football program and how the program shouldn't be punished for it. Yes, because when your school's brass, not to mention the AD and iconic head football coach are a part of a scandal involving a former FOOTBALL coach, it has nothing to do with the football program. It really just adds credence to the belief that he just wanted to protect the program and his legacy.

Giantsfan1080
07-12-2012, 09:47 AM
Yeah that letter was terrible. I wonder if his son is still going to be out in public defending him saying there was no wrong doing on his part.

JoeJoeBrown
07-12-2012, 09:50 AM
I'm still undecided on the death penalty. I wouldn't be shocked or upset if it happened, but can't say that I'm 100% for it. Actually, if they got the death penalty, I feel like it would just be a huge headache for the Big Ten and other schools on top of an already giant black eye. You just know that other schools and conferences are going to associate this with the entire conference for YEARS.

Also, I enjoyed the letter from Paterno stating this has nothing to do with the football program and how the program shouldn't be punished for it. Yes, because when your school's brass, not to mention the AD and iconic head football coach are a part of a scandal involving a former FOOTBALL coach, it has nothing to do with the football program. It really just adds credence to the belief that he just wanted to protect the program and his legacy.

Dude, I respect you, but this is the same kind of mentality that rationalizes away behavior. You've got to step up and take care of business the proper way, damn the pain from the fallout.

JoePa's "letter" kind of cracks me up.

1) Either he wrote it and obviously understood computers and email.
or
2) His son Scott wrote it.

Also, Giants, the Paterno clan was on Good Morning America this morning defending their father. Crazy stuff.

Giantsfan1080
07-12-2012, 09:58 AM
Yikes really? I know it's their father and all but to come out in publoc and defend him still with everything out there now is insane.

Santonio10
07-12-2012, 10:17 AM
We'll see. The NCAA will probably punk out and not do anything.

Hey what can I say, I was wrong. He should have done more as I always have said, but he definitely didn't step up when he needed to the most. However, there are more people to blame than Paterno. I know he creates the headlines but the fact is this was Tim Curley's decision. The head of the police must have agreed with Curley's plan, as did the President, Spanier. They are all equal to blame in this situation. It was a horrible sequence of thoughtless decision making. Thankfully none of these men are with the University anymore.

However, the NCAA should have no part in this. It is a criminal case and there is no way they are going to start punishing schools for crimes unrelated to football. Just because Sandusky was a former coach committing a crime on the campus facilities does not make this a football situation. They did not get an advantage on the field because Curley, Schultz, Paterno, Spanier and McQueary handled this situation so horribly. So where does the NCAA draw the line with punishing schools for crimes? Do you really think the NCAA should keep a tally of all crimes that are committed on every single campus and punish school's for that too? They have trouble handling their own rules, there's no way they could handle that too.

There's no way they can give the death penalty. Plus, Penn State has no major violations and it would require at least one other major violation to have a death penalty.

iowatreat54
07-12-2012, 10:21 AM
Dude, I respect you, but this is the same kind of mentality that rationalizes away behavior. You've got to step up and take care of business the proper way, damn the pain from the fallout.

JoePa's "letter" kind of cracks me up.

1) Either he wrote it and obviously understood computers and email.
or
2) His son Scott wrote it.

Also, Giants, the Paterno clan was on Good Morning America this morning defending their father. Crazy stuff.

Sorry, I actually went back and added that bolded part right before submitting because I had never thought of it before. If PSU got the death penalty, I had never considered how it would affect the other teams. Didn't mean it as, "they shouldn't do it just because it would hurt us," but more of, "****, those asshats are actually going to make our lives unbearable with like SEC fans."

Obviously it shouldn't factor into any type of punishment, and if it did happen, it would do little in giving back what was taken from the victims and their families. But up until now, I had thought of this only as a PSU thing, was more of what my comments were geared towards.

iowatreat54
07-12-2012, 10:24 AM
But it does affect the football program when if they originally came out with this information and exposed Sandusky, the program likely would have been hurt because of it, either from recruits not wanting to play for PSU/Paterno, high profile teams not wanting to play them in non-conference, bowls not wanting to select them, and hell even donors not giving money (although we see that might not be true), etc.

So you see, the entire cover up does have some direct correlation to advantages PSU gained from not reporting it. There is a clear picture that can be painted that the individuals involved did not let this out because it would have harmed the football program, and in that way did it provide a benefit to the football program.

Just because football players weren't involved or it didn't some how benefit them directly on the field doesn't mean the football program did not benefit from this whole thing, because they likely benefitted the most after Sandusky himself.

JoeJoeBrown
07-12-2012, 10:26 AM
Sorry, I actually went back and added that bolded part right before submitting because I had never thought of it before. If PSU got the death penalty, I had never considered how it would affect the other teams. Didn't mean it as, "they shouldn't do it just because it would hurt us," but more of, "****, those asshats are actually going to make our lives unbearable with like SEC fans."

Obviously it shouldn't factor into any type of punishment, and if it did happen, it would do little in giving back what was taken from the victims and their families. But up until now, I had thought of this only as a PSU thing, was more of what my comments were geared towards.

I figured that it was more stream of conciousness, but it still struck me as not running with your e-Persona.

iowatreat54
07-12-2012, 10:37 AM
I figured that it was more stream of conciousness, but it still struck me as not running with your e-Persona.

Haha ya, I really don't care what minor issues it causes for the rest of us, but I'll still be pissed at both the jokers that are responsible and the fans of other schools for being ignorant and morons for associating us with this whole thing.

But let's say PSU gets the death penalty, how does that affect the divisions, conference championship, and scheduling? I would bet we do a quick add of like Rutgers or something right after. But that's probably a discussion for another thread and if it actually happens.

The other thing is, as Santonio mentioned, PSU has never had a major violation. On one hand, you would think that's good and may factor into what punishment they get, if any. On the other hand, it kind of makes you wonder if they went this far to cover up this issue, what other minor-in-comparison issues were there that we don't know about...

JoeJoeBrown
07-12-2012, 10:56 AM
Haha ya, I really don't care what minor issues it causes for the rest of us, but I'll still be pissed at both the jokers that are responsible and the fans of other schools for being ignorant and morons for associating us with this whole thing.

But let's say PSU gets the death penalty, how does that affect the divisions, conference championship, and scheduling? I would bet we do a quick add of like Rutgers or something right after. But that's probably a discussion for another thread and if it actually happens.

The other thing is, as Santonio mentioned, PSU has never had a major violation. On one hand, you would think that's good and may factor into what punishment they get, if any. On the other hand, it kind of makes you wonder if they went this far to cover up this issue, what other minor-in-comparison issues were there that we don't know about...

They've covered up a bunch of stuff. Guarantee it. No major program is clean.

Just look at this from the report. The very definition of LOIC and having the football program cover up incidents.

Some individuals interviewed identified the handling of a student disciplinary matetr in 2007 as an example of Paterno's excessive influence at the university. The April 2007 incident involved a fight at an off-campus apartment in which several individuals were severly injured by the Penn State football players. The former University official responsible for the student disciplinary process, who the Special Investigative Counsel interviewed, perceived pressure from the Athletics Department, and particularly the football program, to treat players in ways that would maintain their ability to play sports, including during the 2007 incident. [-] Interview (3-9-12). When the Student Affairs Office ("SAQ") sanctioned the players invoilved, the sanctions were subsequently reduced by Spanier to enable players to participate in football practice. [-] Interview (3-12-12). A senior staff member of the SAQ advised that his office handles over 4,000 cases a year of off-campus student conduct violations. [-] Interview (12-12-11) In all of the cases he has managed over the years, this incident and one other involving a football player were the only incidents in which issued sanctions were reduced. [-] Interview (12-12-11); [-] Interview (3-12-12).



On another thing, there are weird things with how Sandusky was paid by the university upon "retirement". And three years after that.

I would bet a lot of money that the Second Mile was a slush fund for the football program.

Giantsfan1080
07-12-2012, 11:03 AM
Haha ya, I really don't care what minor issues it causes for the rest of us, but I'll still be pissed at both the jokers that are responsible and the fans of other schools for being ignorant and morons for associating us with this whole thing.

But let's say PSU gets the death penalty, how does that affect the divisions, conference championship, and scheduling? I would bet we do a quick add of like Rutgers or something right after. But that's probably a discussion for another thread and if it actually happens.

The other thing is, as Santonio mentioned, PSU has never had a major violation. On one hand, you would think that's good and may factor into what punishment they get, if any. On the other hand, it kind of makes you wonder if they went this far to cover up this issue, what other minor-in-comparison issues were there that we don't know about...

I sure wouldn't complain.

iowatreat54
07-12-2012, 11:10 AM
They've covered up a bunch of stuff. Guarantee it. No major program is clean.

Just look at this from the report. The very definition of LOIC and having the football program cover up incidents.

Psh, Iowa hasn't had any major violations, we are poster children for compliance. Sure, we may have a lot of players that get in trouble for drugs and drinking, and there was that whole City Boyz Inc. fiasco (look it up if you don't know), but WE'RE CLEAN.:yes:

I should add that in light of the whole PSU thing, I don't want to say Ferentz and his staff up until now were too "good" of people to do anything against the rules, but rather I just think they are too simple minded and possibly naive to even think of it. But I'm sure there are some things that have been covered up, hopefully nothing major.

I sure wouldn't complain.

Neither would I sir, neither would I.

Giantsfan1080
07-12-2012, 11:15 AM
Schiano ran a very clean program. Hardly any incidents under his tenure. He did build the program around the Penn State Model though so I wonder what if anything was covered up here.

Smooth Criminal
07-12-2012, 12:15 PM
Paterno lied in grand jury testimony, convinced them not to go through with plan to report it, and was a keypart in the cover up. Sane people are still defending him?

I don't think I've ever agreed with Mark May before, just shredded Penn State. Nice to see a good portion of the media actually reacting appropriately to this.

iowatreat54
07-12-2012, 12:30 PM
You know it's funny, I'm usually of the mind set that the media will blow things out of proportion or exaggerate small stories to create news. But most of the time, other fans and people will agree they are doing so, and while things may be bad they aren't as bad as the media is portraying, and rag on the media for it.

This is a case where the media is reporting this stuff, and EVERYONE outside of PSU fans (not all of them) agree that it may be as bad or even worse than what's being reported. I can't remember another instance where that's true. I mean, when the entire country is in agreement over something and it's the opposite of your stance, you have to know something is wrong...

Brodeur
07-12-2012, 02:51 PM
Does this mean that PSU fans will stop treating Paterno like he's some saint, and realize he was a power hungry, obsessed with winning douche of a human?

iowatreat54
07-12-2012, 03:03 PM
Does this mean that PSU fans will stop treating Paterno like he's some saint, and realize he was a power hungry, obsessed with winning douche of a human?

Do these answer your question?

http://bwi.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=36&tid=156251931&mid=156251931&sid=890&style=2

http://bwi.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=36&tid=156251117&mid=156251117&sid=890&style=2

http://bwi.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=36&tid=156251325&mid=156251325&sid=890&style=2

JoeJoeBrown
07-12-2012, 03:06 PM
Do these answer your question?

http://bwi.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=36&tid=156251931&mid=156251931&sid=890&style=2

http://bwi.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=36&tid=156251117&mid=156251117&sid=890&style=2

http://bwi.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=36&tid=156251325&mid=156251325&sid=890&style=2

Those people are ******* insane. I don't think it's a small subset of PSU people unfortunately.

iowatreat54
07-12-2012, 03:10 PM
I seriously think the funniest (relatively speaking, because none of this is funny) part of the PSU fan base is when they say Paterno did everything in his power/didn't have power or influence to do anything but tell his boss.

It's astounding how there is this legend of not only PSU lore, not only college football lore, but for all of athletics, amateur and professional. The man was the face of the university for 30 years, fans came up wit "Paternoville" to honor him, and numerous other social influences stemming from the man, yet now they act like his hands were tied and he was just the lowly football coach that didn't have the ability to do anything since Sandusky was no longer a coach. Again, for a lack of a better term, it's hilarious.

JoeJoeBrown
07-12-2012, 03:12 PM
"Before May 1998, several staff members and football coaches regularly observed Sandusky showering with young boys in the Lasch Building (now the East Area Locker Building or 'Old Lasch'). None of the individuals interviewed notified their superiors of this behavior"

BTW, one of these goes back to 1995, where Sandusky brought the boy to Pasadena for the Rose Bowl.

Eff the former PSU coaching staff.

This **** had been going on for decades, likely since the beginning of The Second Mile. Damnit this angers me.

Smooth Criminal
07-12-2012, 03:16 PM
Those people are the dumbest. Anyone with any level of influence, including zero, could have stopped this.

If any human called the news and said they knew of child molestation going on at Penn State the news would have looked into it. Call the police. Call anyone. Stand on the street corner and shout it out.

If Paterno walked up to a press conference mic and said theres boys getting molested but my bosses won't let me do anything, what do you think would happen? That he'd get fired? Not a chance in hell.

gpngc
07-12-2012, 03:21 PM
Thought I just had.

In today's world of social media, twitter, bloggers, and the all-encompassing 24-hour news cycle, the news crawl, etc. this type of coverup would never happen.

In 1998 when Sandusky mysteriously left the team, a top DC in college football who was slated to take over for the greatest coaching legend in college football, there were likely a couple of newspaper reports, maybe a quick report on Sportscenter. The media in Pennsylvania maybe was swayed by the coverup-ers to maybe downplay the story.

But had all that technology existed then, the 'retirement' or 'dismissal' would have resulted in questions. People with resources like twitter would have demanded answers. It may have been exposed WHY he left. Nowadays if a well-known, successful coach in his prime leaves, people get answers as to why.

Just a thought.

Giantsfan1080
07-12-2012, 04:02 PM
I take it that Matt Millen made a huge ass out of himself on TV today also? That guy can't do anything right.

descendency
07-12-2012, 04:09 PM
I take it that Matt Millen made a huge ass out of himself on TV today also? That guy can't do anything right.

He's still in denial that Paterno didn't do the right thing.

To be fair, he shouldn't be on TV. It's a father figure that he's basically being asked to analyze. No one could be objective in that case.

Smooth Criminal
07-12-2012, 04:21 PM
I take it that Matt Millen made a huge ass out of himself on TV today also? That guy can't do anything right.

I read on twitter that he did, but what I heard wasn't that bad at all. Unless he changed something from earlier I didn't hear anything but sadness in his voice. Worst I heard was him say the Paterno he knew would never put publicity over something like this.

JoeJoeBrown
07-12-2012, 04:36 PM
I read on twitter that he did, but what I heard wasn't that bad at all. Unless he changed something from earlier I didn't hear anything but sadness in his voice. Worst I heard was him say the Paterno he knew would never put publicity over something like this.

Millen said that this is doesn't erase JoePa's legacy but is a part of it.

I call BS on that after reading this stuff. Enabling child rape and covering it up erases any supposed giving a crap about children and education.

He covered up this crap and outright lied about knowing about the 1998 investigation.

There had to be big reasons for covering up Sandusky's activities pre-1998 and post-1998. I feel that it has to be something fishy with the Second Mile. Slush fund, business front for PSU elites, something more nefarious, etc...

Smooth Criminal
07-12-2012, 04:54 PM
Itll be interesting to see if anything comes out of Second Mile. But as of now there's enough damning evidence already that I don't think we need to speculate any further.

WCH
07-12-2012, 05:57 PM
This is just stupid: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20120712_TVs_at_PSU_student_center_suddenly_switch _to_public_access.html?c=r

Yeah, I'm sure that made the students feel a lot better. I'm sure that none of them went home and found the press conference on the internet. Idiots.

descendency
07-12-2012, 07:10 PM
This is just stupid: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20120712_TVs_at_PSU_student_center_suddenly_switch _to_public_access.html?c=r

Yeah, I'm sure that made the students feel a lot better. I'm sure that none of them went home and found the press conference on the internet. Idiots.
I guess we know what's going to happen after the lawsuits start coming. . . Penn State at Pyongyang. They've already mastered the media shut out and crazy locals supporting a recently deceased leader/deity.

JoeJoeBrown
07-12-2012, 07:10 PM
This is just stupid: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20120712_TVs_at_PSU_student_center_suddenly_switch _to_public_access.html?c=r

Yeah, I'm sure that made the students feel a lot better. I'm sure that none of them went home and found the press conference on the internet. Idiots.

The PSU reality distortion field is starting to catastrophically fail.

JoeJoeBrown
07-12-2012, 07:12 PM
Itll be interesting to see if anything comes out of Second Mile. But as of now there's enough damning evidence already that I don't think we need to speculate any further.

There will be (or already are) plenty of people digging into the second mile, most likely the FBI.

JoeJoeBrown
07-12-2012, 07:14 PM
I guess we know what's going to happen after the lawsuits start coming. . . Penn State at Pyongyang. They've already mastered the media shut out and crazy locals supporting a recently deceased leader/deity.

Pyongyang is a perfect analogy. Dispicable behavior by a huge number of "adults".

Smooth Criminal
07-13-2012, 06:41 AM
There will be (or already are) plenty of people digging into the second mile, most likely the FBI.

I'm sure there are and I'm sure we'll get something to out of it that looks pretty bad. But for now anything is just pure speculation based on a theory.

There's enough basically confirmed to hate everyone involved. Let's start with that and wait and see what comes out of the charity.

JoeJoeBrown
07-13-2012, 09:52 AM
LaVarr gets it. (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/lavar-arrington-joe-paterno-didn-t-know-person-014135658--ncaaf.html)
So much more than that moron Matt Millen.

JoeJoeBrown
07-13-2012, 10:01 AM
I'm sure there are and I'm sure we'll get something to out of it that looks pretty bad. But for now anything is just pure speculation based on a theory.

There's enough basically confirmed to hate everyone involved. Let's start with that and wait and see what comes out of the charity.

I get what you are saying, and I agree with the sentiment. But there has to be a reason that these people acted so evilly.

I think it was money and power. And a lot of that money probably had something to do with TSM.

If you read the report, there is a note where Sandusky got an "unusual" payment of $168.5k, and then TSM bought some land from PSU for $168k. That same chunk of land was sold to PSU by TSM for the same price 3 years earlier.

Another interesting article here on how PSU (http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/als-morning-meeting/180740/would-open-records-have-stopped-abuse-sooner-at-penn-state/) could keep this under wraps for so long; They weren't subject to FOIA laws in Pennsylvania. Even the PSU cops aren't subject to it.

So for those few of you that want to cling to the notion that PSU couldn't suppress an investigation in 1998 into Sandusky and force him to go free, then you are even more wrong. There is no way to get visibility into the cops (barring a state or federal investigation) so who knows why the case was dropped? But since there is no visibility, there is quite a bit of likelihood that PSU forced the issue.

And another note, if Freeh had subpoena power (he didn't) (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/legal-experts-feel-exfbi-director-delve-jerry-sandusky-history-abuse-article-1.1113576?localLinksEnabled=false), he would have been able to investigate TSM. Legal experts are saying the investigation should have gone back to when TSM was started, back in 1978. He obviously couldn't have done that. Hopefully the Feds will.

Smooth Criminal
07-13-2012, 11:11 AM
The reason could easily have been job security. If you remember back to 2001 people were questioning Joes age while he was having some poor years by Penn State standards.

And if they brushed 1998 under the rug thinking that it was possibly being over stated, then they might have feared for their jobs even more when another report happened in 2001.

That's kind of how I picture it. I don't see them sitting around acting evil. Things probably started smaller with them not fully understanding and then by the time they figured it out things had gone so far that they didn't want to admit they dropped the ball earlier. Still terrible of course, but easier to comprehend.

Of course, money could always just be the simple motive. Usually is one of the better ones.

TimD
07-13-2012, 11:45 AM
Those people are ******* insane. I don't think it's a small subset of PSU people unfortunately.

Most of the people I associate with had the opinion that "we don't know what Joe did or did not know, so we can't judge" until yesterday. Then everyone basically said **** that guy.

The irrational "We Ares" somehow convince themselves otherwise.

TimD
07-13-2012, 11:48 AM
Pyongyang is a perfect analogy. Dispicable behavior by a huge number of "adults".

My friend from school tweeted "what is this North Korea?" as soon as the Freeh report came out. I couldn't help but laugh at the analogy.

JoeJoeBrown
07-13-2012, 11:52 AM
Most of the people I associate with had the opinion that "we don't know what Joe did or did not know, so we can't judge" until yesterday. Then everyone basically said **** that guy.

The irrational "We Ares" somehow convince themselves otherwise.

I love hearing that and appreciate that approach.

Thanks for restoring a bit of faith in humanity.

Smooth Criminal
07-13-2012, 02:18 PM
You all have to see what they said on outside the lines. Some jackass said this isn't unprecedented and he can't know for certain but

Q: "You know other schools that have allowed rape to happen on their campuses?"

A: "I don't know his for certain but my guess is that you could find similar crimes almost everywhere in the country almost any week of the year."

Holy **** are people ********. That's his defense of not having the death penalty. I can't believe someone even said that.

Smooth Criminal
07-13-2012, 02:20 PM
"who's going to get a statue? George Wshington did unsavory things."

"add a plague. Compromise or something."

This guy is a real jackass

JoeJoeBrown
07-13-2012, 02:25 PM
You all have to see what they said on outside the lines. Some jackass said this isn't unprecedented and he can't know for certain but

Q: "You know other schools that have allowed rape to happen on their campuses?"

A: "I don't know his for certain but my guess is that you could find similar crimes almost everywhere in the country almost any week of the year."

Holy **** are people ********. That's his defense of not having the death penalty. I can't believe someone even said that.

For some reason, it seems like ESPN is not applying pressure on PSU on this one. Probably some high level PSU execs there or something.

Also, this just happened at Montana. (http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/montana_state_university/article_8199d42e-65bc-11e1-8afe-0019bb2963f4.html)

There is a lot more on that sick stuff on the webs. Basically, the school was trying to suppress the investigation of a gang rape of a woman by some football players. And more sordid stuff. Pretty messed up.

Our educational institutions need a serious reforming process. Sports programs are too powerful on many campuses.

Smooth Criminal
07-13-2012, 02:27 PM
I can't even type any more quotes. It's some of the most absurd things I've ever heard. He actually said things like this happen everywhere, every week of the year. He actually I'd not to take the statue down, but to add a plaque saying something about this as a compromise. said the report wasn't a legal document and wasn't fact.

I didn't think opinions like that existed.

Smooth Criminal
07-13-2012, 02:29 PM
For some reason, it seems like ESPN is not applying pressure on PSU on this one. Probably some high level PSU execs there or something.

Also, this just happened at Montana. (http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/montana_state_university/article_8199d42e-65bc-11e1-8afe-0019bb2963f4.html)

There is a lot more on that sick stuff on the webs. Basically, the school was trying to suppress the investigation of a gang rape of a woman by some football players. And more sordid stuff. Pretty messed up.

Our educational institutions need a serious reforming process. Sports programs are too powerful on many campuses.


Notre Dame had that accusation too. But there's been many on ESPN calling of the death penalty and I can tell you that many sports writers in PA are as well. It's crazy to think people are saying things like the statue should stay and we should still celebrate his other things.

This may only be a portion of his career and life, but it's quite enough for me to ignore anything else. Yes, one terrible horrific action against children can completely eliminate anything else you've ever done. I don't care how good.

JoeJoeBrown
07-13-2012, 04:29 PM
Notre Dame had that accusation too. But there's been many on ESPN calling of the death penalty and I can tell you that many sports writers in PA are as well. It's crazy to think people are saying things like the statue should stay and we should still celebrate his other things.

This may only be a portion of his career and life, but it's quite enough for me to ignore anything else. Yes, one terrible horrific action against children can completely eliminate anything else you've ever done. I don't care how good.

Yeah, and don't think that it was one incident. He covered up at the minimum two incidents since 1998. He knew what a monster Sandusky was and did nothing. That more than erases building a library.

Outside of the victims, I feel really bad for people like TimDris and Grizz and Santonio, Stick Skills and the rest of the sane PSU people.

You have been taught one thing, experienced one thing, and then reality comes and gives you something really nasty. That kind of cognitive dissonance blows.

My PSU friends IRL are having a weird time with it, especially because most of them are big football fans as well.

There is no easy way to resolve this mess for those not directly involved but support and love their school.

I have no idea what I'd feel like if CWRU had a scandal like this.

Smooth Criminal
07-13-2012, 04:42 PM
The statue says humanitarian on it even. It's so ridiculous. Definitely has to go. Cant really think of a good argument for keeping it even.

JoeJoeBrown
07-13-2012, 04:51 PM
The statue says humanitarian on it even. It's so ridiculous. Definitely has to go. Cant really think of a good argument for keeping it even.

Bobby Bowden thinks it should be removed. (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/bobby-bowden-says-joe-paterno-statue-needs-removed-152925297--ncaaf.html) And it's not because of the hypocrisy of it all.

"Should his statue be removed? In my opinion, yes," Bowden said. "Now the reason is, Penn State's job now is to try to forget this thing. But every time somebody walks by and sees that statue, they're not going to remember the 80 good years, they're going to remember this thing with (former assistant coach Jerry) Sandusky.
"Just think, every time you go to a ballgame at Penn State and they shine a camera on that statue, that's going to be brought up again. So if I was Penn State, if I was Joe's family, I'd say, 'move on from all that stuff.'"

Smooth Criminal
07-13-2012, 05:04 PM
Yea I saw that earlier. Plenty of good reasons to remove it and I've yet to hear a good one for keeping it.

Espn is gonna air it like its the statue of Saddam falling.

Giantsfan1080
07-13-2012, 05:20 PM
Yea I saw that earlier. Plenty of good reasons to remove it and I've yet to hear a good one for keeping it.

Espn is gonna air it like its the statue of Saddam falling.

If they do that it'll happen in the middle of the night when no one is around.

Prowler
07-13-2012, 06:15 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--penn-state-civil-suits-sandusky-victims-cost-joe-paterno-freeh-report.html

There is potential for the university to lose over $100million easily and also lose state funding and have insurance not cover the damages.

Also
Sports law expert Alan Milstein thinks it's a foregone conclusion the NCAA will get involved. "If Penn State is smart," he said, "they're going to self-punish and eliminate the program for one year to avoid the death penalty."

Others believe that because this is a criminal issue and not a sports concern, the NCAA will avoid interfering. Milstein vehemently disagrees. "This is all about sports," he said. "All about protecting your sports empire."

He predicts Penn State will "shut down" its football program temporarily and allow athletes to transfer without penalty. If that happens, the school obviously would suffer a serious financial hit.

Would all this irreparably damage the university? Probably not, as Penn State's endowment is $1.8 billion. But unfortunately for the school, there's another frightening scenario to think about, and it involves Title IX.

Most of us think of Title IX as federal legislation that ensures gender equality, and that's true. But in a well-argued article for Justia.com last year, Hofstra professor Joanna Grossman and Pittsburgh professor Deborah Brake pointed out "Title IX's ban on sex discrimination clearly encompasses sexual harassment, whether it is opposite-sex or same-sex, and sexual assault and rape each constitute a severe form of sexual harassment, as well as being criminal acts."

The authors cited a 1992 Supreme Court case, Franklin v. Gwinnett County Public Schools, which allows a sexual harassment victim to sue for damages based on Title IX. (It's difficult to argue the Sandusky victims were not harassed.)

WCH
07-13-2012, 06:51 PM
Wow! Losing state funding would be huge. I hadn't even considered that. It seems like a long shot, but it's an interesting scenario to think about.

That would make an NCAA "Death Penalty" look like small ****.

JoeJoeBrown
07-13-2012, 07:15 PM
Wow! Losing state funding would be huge. I hadn't even considered that. It seems like a long shot, but it's an interesting scenario to think about.

That would make an NCAA "Death Penalty" look like small ****.

Wow that would be huge.

Prowler
07-13-2012, 07:27 PM
I doubt that the Attorney General would ever file charges against them because the leadership has been changed...but they fact that she could should scare the hell out of the university into doing drastic changes.

I still can't believe the recruits who went signed with Penn State this past class...did they not have TVs?

WCH
07-13-2012, 07:31 PM
I doubt that the Attorney General would ever file charges against them because the leadership has been changed...but they fact that she could should scare the hell out of the university into doing drastic changes.

I still can't believe the recruits who went signed with Penn State this past class...did they not have TVs?

I've wondered that about Bill O'Brien, also. It seems like it could end up being a pretty good way to tank a promising career.

JoeJoeBrown
07-13-2012, 07:31 PM
I doubt that the Attorney General would ever file charges against them because the leadership has been changed...but they fact that she could should scare the hell out of the university into doing drastic changes.

Like becoming an official state institution that is subject to FOIA requests? That would be a great start.


I still can't believe the recruits who went signed with Penn State this past class...did they not have TVs?

Yeah, I don't get it. And especially weird is WTF haven't recruits been fleeing their current class?

YAYareaRB
07-13-2012, 08:19 PM
time to step up boys

http://images.sportsnetwork.com/cfoot/1aa/2011/ragone_billy2_490.jpg

if they dont get the death penalty, im gonna lose my mind

Grizzlegom
07-13-2012, 08:29 PM
Yeah, and don't think that it was one incident. He covered up at the minimum two incidents since 1998. He knew what a monster Sandusky was and did nothing. That more than erases building a library.

Outside of the victims, I feel really bad for people like TimDris and Grizz and Santonio, Stick Skills and the rest of the sane PSU people.

You have been taught one thing, experienced one thing, and then reality comes and gives you something really nasty. That kind of cognitive dissonance blows.

My PSU friends IRL are having a weird time with it, especially because most of them are big football fans as well.

There is no easy way to resolve this mess for those not directly involved but support and love their school.

I have no idea what I'd feel like if CWRU had a scandal like this.

This is a perfect way to describe it. I've been trying to avoid reading all the articles and stuff. I read the Freeh report and I think I've been mostly in shock ever since. I finally cracked and started reading other stuff tonight and decided to check out the thread and yea...I can't really agree or disagree with anything anyone has said.

At the end of the day I'm still in shock/denial. I can't believe that two men that I've met on multiple occasions and really kinda looked up to (Paterno and Spanier to a lesser extent cause he was kind of a dick) could cover this up like this. I have never been in the Lasch building but I was attending the university while a number of the victims were being victimized. I just don't know how to feel anymore honestly...starting to debate whether I will even use any of my season tickets this year, assuming there is a season...

descendency
07-13-2012, 08:33 PM
My problem with punishing PSU with a traditional penalty is that the traditional reasoning for punishing someone doesn't apply here.

The people that are responsible are dead, in jail, headed to jail, or long since fired. Basically everyone at PSU is innocent. Punishing them seems unfair.

However, instituting a program takeover (where you put in inspectors that come in weekly or even monthly and check the books from top to bottom) makes way way more sense.

Closing the programs isn't going to fix anything, but doing nothing will mean the parties involved didn't take it serious. The NCAA needs to basically choose the next AD for Penn State. It needs to be an NCAA guy, that reports to the NCAA, and will not put up with the absolute garbage that went on during the past 20 years.

WCH
07-13-2012, 08:44 PM
For some reason, it seems like ESPN is not applying pressure on PSU on this one. Probably some high level PSU execs there or something.

Also, this just happened at Montana. (http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/montana_state_university/article_8199d42e-65bc-11e1-8afe-0019bb2963f4.html)

There is a lot more on that sick stuff on the webs. Basically, the school was trying to suppress the investigation of a gang rape of a woman by some football players. And more sordid stuff. Pretty messed up.

Our educational institutions need a serious reforming process. Sports programs are too powerful on many campuses.

I just saw this post. I was at Eastern Michigan when the Laura Dickinson Murder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Laura_Dickinson) took place. My apartment balcony overlooked the road that the police and ambulances went roaring down the night that she was found dead in her dorm room. For a month, the school covered up the fact that it was a rape-murder (allegedly, her parents didn't even know what actually happened, beyond the fact that she was dead).

This didn't sit very well with the student body; and particularly the female students, who felt like they should have known that a predator was potentially roaming the campus. A lot of girls transferred after they found out it was a coverup, and I expect PSU to see the same thing happen.

Enrollment at EMU tanked shortly after, but it's hard to say if it was because of the Dickinson rape-murder-coverup, or because the economy just happened to crash shortly thereafter. Probably a little of both.

YAYareaRB
07-13-2012, 08:51 PM
My problem with punishing PSU with a traditional penalty is that the traditional reasoning for punishing someone doesn't apply here.

The people that are responsible are dead, in jail, headed to jail, or long since fired. Basically everyone at PSU is innocent. Punishing them seems unfair.

However, instituting a program takeover (where you put in inspectors that come in weekly or even monthly and check the books from top to bottom) makes way way more sense.

Closing the programs isn't going to fix anything, but doing nothing will mean the parties involved didn't take it serious. The NCAA needs to basically choose the next AD for Penn State. It needs to be an NCAA guy, that reports to the NCAA, and will not put up with the absolute garbage that went on during the past 20 years.

alot of the recent penalties handed out by the NCAA affect people that had nothing to do with initial crimes. take USC for instance. lane kiffin wasn't the coach when the reggie bush scandal went down. most of the players that got punished for the crime weren't even in high school when the scandal went down.

story of the NCAA. IMO, it really doesn't have anything to do with what's fair and who's involved. its just the NCAA coming down hard on the institution for making the NCAA look bad. "you fool me once, well **** you" is their motto.

Smooth Criminal
07-13-2012, 08:54 PM
If they do that it'll happen in the middle of the night when no one is around.

I ws halfway through typing that there no way there won't be film of it, but I'm sure you're right. The way this whole thing has gone down it will just be gone one morning.

Complex
07-13-2012, 10:50 PM
What a fool I was.

In 1986, I spent a week in State College, Pa., researching a 10-page Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year piece on Joe Paterno.

It was supposed to be a secret, but one night the phone in my hotel room rang. It was a Penn State professor, calling out of the blue.

"Are you here to take part in hagiography?" he said.

"What's hagiography?" I asked.

"The study of saints," he said. "You're going to be just like the rest, aren't you? You're going to make Paterno out to be a saint. You don't know him. He'll do anything to win. What you media are doing is dangerous."

Jealous egghead, I figured.

What an idiot I was.Twenty-five years later, when former Penn State defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky was accused of a 15-year reign of pedophilia on young boys, I thought Paterno was too old and too addled to understand, too grandfatherly and Catholic to get that Sandusky was committing grisly crimes using Paterno's own football program as bait.
But I was wrong. Paterno knew. He knew all about it. He'd known for years. He knew and he followed it vigilantly.

That's all clear now after Penn State's own investigator, former FBI director Louis Freeh, came out Thursday and hung the whole disgusting canvas on a wall for us. Showed us the emails, read us the interviews, shined a black light on all of the lies they left behind. It cost $6.5 million and took eight months and the truth it uncovered was 100 times uglier than the bills.

Paterno knew about a mother's cry that Sandusky had molested her son in 1998. Later, Paterno lied to a grand jury and said he didn't. Paterno and university president Graham Spanier and vice president Gary Schultz and athletic director Tim Curley all knew what kind of sick coach they had on the payroll in Sandusky. Schultz had pertinent questions. "Is this opening of pandora's box?" he wrote in personal notes on the case. "Other children?" "Sexual improprieties?"

It gets worse. According to Freeh, Spanier, Schultz and Curley were set to call child services on Sandusky in February 2001 until Paterno apparently talked them out of it. Curley wasn't "comfortable" going to child services after that talk with JoePa.

Yeah, that's the most important thing, your comfort.

What'd they do instead? Alerted nobody. Called nobody. And let Sandusky keep leading his horrific tours around campus. "Hey, want to see the showers?" That sentence alone ought to bring down the statue.

What a stooge I was.

I talked about Paterno's "true legacy" in all of this. Here's his true legacy: Paterno let a child molester go when he could've stopped him. He let him go and then lied to cover his sinister tracks. He let a rapist go to save his own recruiting successes and fundraising pitches and big-fish-small-pond hide.

Here's a legacy for you. Paterno's cowardice and ego and fears allowed Sandusky to molest at least eight more boys in the years after that 1998 incident -- Victims 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9 and 10. Just to recap: By not acting, a grown man failed to protect eight boys from years of molestation, abuse and self-loathing, all to save his program the embarrassment. The mother of Victim 1 is "filled with hatred toward Joe Paterno," the victim's lawyer says. "She just hates him, and reviles him." Can you blame her?

What a sap I was.

I hope Penn State loses civil suits until the walls of the accounting office cave in. I hope that Spanier, Schultz and Curley go to prison for perjury. I hope the NCAA gives Penn State the death penalty it most richly deserves. The worst scandal in college football history deserves the worst penalty the NCAA can give. They gave it to SMU for winning without regard for morals. They should give it to Penn State for the same thing. The only difference is, at Penn State they didn't pay for it with Corvettes. They paid for it with lives.

What a chump I was.

I tweeted that, yes, Paterno should be fired, but that he was, overall, "a good and decent man." I was wrong. Good and decent men don't do what Paterno did. Good and decent men protect kids, not rapists. And to think Paterno comes from "father" in Italian.

This throws a can of black paint on anything anybody tells me about Paterno from here on in. "No NCAA violations in all those years." I believe it. He was great at hiding stuff. "He gave $4 million to the library." In exchange for what? "He cared about kids away from the football field." No, he didn't. Not all of them. Not when it really mattered.

What a tool I was.

As Joe Paterno lay dying, I actually felt sorry for him. Little did I know he was taking all of his dirty secrets to the grave. Nine days before he died, he had The Washington Post's Sally Jenkins in his kitchen. He could've admitted it then. Could've tried a simple "I'm sorry." But he didn't. Instead, he just lied deeper. Right to her face. Right to all of our faces.

That professor was right, all those years ago. I was engaging in hagiography. So was that school. So was that town. It was dangerous. Turns out it builds monsters.

Not all of them ended up in prison.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8162972/joe-paterno-true-legacy

Giantsfan1080
07-13-2012, 11:00 PM
Some of the Penn State recruits are terrible with what they were saying. Breneman especially. I just don't get it.

JHL6719
07-13-2012, 11:18 PM
I get what you are saying, and I agree with the sentiment. But there has to be a reason that these people acted so evilly.

I think it was money and power. And a lot of that money probably had something to do with TSM.

If you read the report, there is a note where Sandusky got an "unusual" payment of $168.5k, and then TSM bought some land from PSU for $168k. That same chunk of land was sold to PSU by TSM for the same price 3 years earlier.

Another interesting article here on how PSU (http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/als-morning-meeting/180740/would-open-records-have-stopped-abuse-sooner-at-penn-state/) could keep this under wraps for so long; They weren't subject to FOIA laws in Pennsylvania. Even the PSU cops aren't subject to it.

So for those few of you that want to cling to the notion that PSU couldn't suppress an investigation in 1998 into Sandusky and force him to go free, then you are even more wrong. There is no way to get visibility into the cops (barring a state or federal investigation) so who knows why the case was dropped? But since there is no visibility, there is quite a bit of likelihood that PSU forced the issue.

And another note, if Freeh had subpoena power (he didn't) (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/legal-experts-feel-exfbi-director-delve-jerry-sandusky-history-abuse-article-1.1113576?localLinksEnabled=false), he would have been able to investigate TSM. Legal experts are saying the investigation should have gone back to when TSM was started, back in 1978. He obviously couldn't have done that. Hopefully the Feds will.


I remember when all of this first broke, there was the story about the district attorney who just vanished into thin air. Supposedly all that was found was his vehicle and a computer with the hard drive missing.

Now, ask yourself these two questions:

1) Who the hell has the power to make a DA completely vanish into thin air?

2.) What the hell was on that DA's hard drive that was incriminating enough that he had to disappear along with it?

JoeJoeBrown
07-13-2012, 11:52 PM
I remember when all of this first broke, there was the story about the district attorney who just vanished into thin air. Supposedly all that was found was his vehicle and a computer with the hard drive missing.

Now, ask yourself these two questions:

1) Who the hell has the power to make a DA completely vanish into thin air?

2.) What the hell was on that DA's hard drive that was incriminating enough that he had to disappear along with it?

Pretty freaky stuff, no?

But I heard that he was also working a mob related drug case around that time as well. Still, it makes one wonder. Hiding a serial child rapist is a pretty evil thing to do. Not too far away from being able to rationalize away a murder. To protect the greater good, you know?

While we are on crazy conspiracies, an early rumor that is still lingering is that Sandusky used the second mile to pimp boys to rich pedos in exchange for donations. Too crazy for me to believe but at this point I guess anything is possible.

Santonio10
07-14-2012, 08:31 AM
Pretty freaky stuff, no?

But I heard that he was also working a mob related drug case around that time as well. Still, it makes one wonder. Hiding a serial child rapist is a pretty evil thing to do. Not too far away from being able to rationalize away a murder. To protect the greater good, you know?

While we are on crazy conspiracies, an early rumor that is still lingering is that Sandusky used the second mile to pimp boys to rich pedos in exchange for donations. Too crazy for me to believe but at this point I guess anything is possible.

My god you just don't stop do you? Haha for as much as you hate the BWI free board you certainly have become as crazy as some of them.

Prowler
07-14-2012, 08:38 AM
My god you just don't stop do you? Haha for as much as you hate the BWI free board you certainly have become as crazy as some of them.

The difference is that this stuff actually happened. Here is a picture of Ray Gricar.

http://o.aolcdn.com/photo-hub/news_gallery/7/0/703185/1295993203044.JPEG

That man has been missing since 2005.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/DA-Who-Never-Charged-Sandusky-Has-Been-Missing-Since-2005-133615093.html

100x different story than people who still believe that Joe Pa didnt' know anything.

JoeJoeBrown
07-14-2012, 09:03 AM
My god you just don't stop do you? Haha for as much as you hate the BWI free board you certainly have become as crazy as some of them.

Dude, you are failing at reading comprehension.

I didn't say I believed any of it. I am merely relaying the crazy conspiracy stuff.

It's not like I made it up. I got it from a Pittsburgh radio guy. And you might have heard of DeadSpin. (http://deadspin.com/5858394/3-reasons-to-be-skeptical-of-the-sandusky-kiddie+sex+ring-rumor-and-one-reason-not-to-be)

The Gricar stuff is true. The man disappeared in the middle of the night and his harddrive was missing as well. I'm pretty sure it was the mob. How is that crazy?

My crazy conspiracy that I believe is that TSM was a slush fund for the football team. Again, I can't take credit for thinking that one up, it's out there on the netz.

And in light of all of this, I don't think that's too crazy.

Santonio10
07-14-2012, 09:29 AM
I know all about Ray Gricar, I live 15 minutes from Bellefonte (where he lived before he went missing). However, implying that Paterno had to do with his disappearance is just absolutely ridiculous. So now he was a mafia boss too? If there were a connection between the two it would have been established already. Trust me, this has already been thought of and there is no connection between the two. As if this whole thing isn't bad enough already

JoeJoeBrown
07-14-2012, 10:11 AM
I know all about Ray Gricar, I live 15 minutes from Bellefonte (where he lived before he went missing). However, implying that Paterno had to do with his disappearance is just absolutely ridiculous. So now he was a mafia boss too? If there were a connection between the two it would have been established already. Trust me, this has already been thought of and there is no connection between the two. As if this whole thing isn't bad enough already

All JHL brought up was an old rumor. I don't think anyone here buys it.

There is going to be a lot of speculation and wild rumors going on for a long while with PSU. That's what happens when you have a power structure that was as corrupt as this. Everything comes into question.

One of the things that annoyed me about my PSU buds was the "No major violations and very high graduation rate" crap they would throw out.

I always said it was BS because there is no way that 1) A football factory can be that clean and 2) No way the graduation rate of a bunch of football players is much higher than the school average without a bunch of help/cooking the books.

Now, it definitely appears that I will be proven correct. Definitely on 1) and most likely on 2). There have to be plenty of professors that are tired of how things were run. Things will be exposed.

Even back in 1986 that was the case if you see the Reilly article Complex posted.

There is almost always a negative tension between the academic side and the athletic side of a school with a major sports department. This scandal will rip that open at PSU.

Santonio10
07-14-2012, 11:02 AM
All JHL brought up was an old rumor. I don't think anyone here buys it.

There is going to be a lot of speculation and wild rumors going on for a long while with PSU. That's what happens when you have a power structure that was as corrupt as this. Everything comes into question.

One of the things that annoyed me about my PSU buds was the "No major violations and very high graduation rate" crap they would throw out.

I always said it was BS because there is no way that 1) A football factory can be that clean and 2) No way the graduation rate of a bunch of football players is much higher than the school average without a bunch of help/cooking the books.

Now, it definitely appears that I will be proven correct. Definitely on 1) and most likely on 2). There have to be plenty of professors that are tired of how things were run. Things will be exposed.

Even back in 1986 that was the case if you see the Reilly article Complex posted.

There is almost always a negative tension between the academic side and the athletic side of a school with a major sports department. This scandal will rip that open at PSU.

I actually know the head academic advisor to the football team at PSU, not to mention numerous players and former players. Joe ran a tight ship with academics, trust me on that one.

WCH
07-14-2012, 11:26 AM
All JHL brought up was an old rumor. I don't think anyone here buys it.

There is going to be a lot of speculation and wild rumors going on for a long while with PSU. That's what happens when you have a power structure that was as corrupt as this. Everything comes into question.

One of the things that annoyed me about my PSU buds was the "No major violations and very high graduation rate" crap they would throw out.

I always said it was BS because there is no way that 1) A football factory can be that clean and 2) No way the graduation rate of a bunch of football players is much higher than the school average without a bunch of help/cooking the books.

Now, it definitely appears that I will be proven correct. Definitely on 1) and most likely on 2). There have to be plenty of professors that are tired of how things were run. Things will be exposed.

Even back in 1986 that was the case if you see the Reilly article Complex posted.

There is almost always a negative tension between the academic side and the athletic side of a school with a major sports department. This scandal will rip that open at PSU.

I thought this was interesting: http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/110211aaa.html

Three public schools show up on that list: PSU, Miami, and Rutgers. The rest are private schools or military schools. PSU and Miami have both been recently caught up in major scandals.

Rutgers doesn't seem out of place on that list (they're an elite research university, on par with Ivy League schools), but when Miami ties the US Military Academy and Penn State ties Stanford...

But I'll take Santonio's word unless evidence comes out.

Complex
07-14-2012, 11:40 AM
The Paterno's being a douches and raping Penn State

In January 2011, Joe Paterno learned prosecutors were investigating his longtime assistant coach Jerry Sandusky for sexually assaulting young boys. Soon, Mr. Paterno had testified before a grand jury, and the rough outlines of what would become a giant scandal had been published in a local newspaper.That same month, Mr. Paterno, the football coach at Penn State, began negotiating with his superiors to amend his contract, with the timing something of a surprise because the contract was not set to expire until the end of 2012, according to university documents and people with knowledge of the discussions. By August, Mr. Paterno and the university’s president, both of whom were by then embroiled in the Sandusky investigation, had reached an agreement.

Mr. Paterno was to be paid $3 million at the end of the 2011 season if he agreed it would be his last. Interest-free loans totaling $350,000 that the university had made to Mr. Paterno over the years would be forgiven as part of the retirement package. He would also have the use of the university’s private plane and a luxury box at Beaver Stadium for him and his family to use over the next 25 years.

The university’s full board of trustees was kept in the dark about the arrangement until November, when Mr. Sandusky was arrested and the contract arrangements, along with so much else at Penn State, were upended. Mr. Paterno was fired, two of the university’s top officials were indicted in connection with the scandal, and the trustees, who held Mr. Paterno’s financial fate in their hands, came under verbal assault from the coach’s angry supporters.

Board members who raised questions about whether the university ought to go forward with the payments were quickly shut down, according to two people with direct knowledge of the negotiations.

In the end, the board of trustees — bombarded with hate mail and threatened with a defamation lawsuit by Mr. Paterno’s family — gave the family virtually everything it wanted, with a package worth roughly $5.5 million. Documents show that the board even tossed in some extras that the family demanded, like the use of specialized hydrotherapy massage equipment for Mr. Paterno’s wife at the university’s Lasch Building, where Mr. Sandusky had molested a number of his victims.

The details of Mr. Paterno and his family’s fight for money seem to deepen one of the lasting truths of the Sandusky scandal: the significant power that Mr. Paterno exerted on the state institution, its officials, its alumni and its purse strings.

Since Mr. Paterno’s death in January, Mr. Paterno’s family, lawyers and publicists have mounted an aggressive campaign to protect his legacy. The family and its lawyers have hammered the university’s board of trustees, accusing members of attempting to deflect blame onto a dying Mr. Paterno. This week, they angrily disputed the conclusions of an independent investigation that asserted Mr. Paterno and other top university officials protected a serial predator in order to “avoid the consequences of bad publicity” for the university, its football program and its coach’s reputation.

On Friday, Wick Sollers, a lawyer for Mr. Paterno and his family, said that it was Penn State that last summer proposed the lucrative retirement package, and that many of the aspects of the proposal — use of the plane, the luxury box — had existed in prior contracts.

Information about the salary paid to Mr. Paterno, one of the longest serving and most successful college football coaches in history, had for many years been hard to come by. In recent years, though, it became fairly common knowledge that he earned about $1 million annually, not counting his television deals and his contracts with shoe and apparel companies.

But speculation about just how long he was going to remain the well-compensated coach of Penn State had been going on for a decade or more. Mr. Paterno survived an attempt to force him into retirement in 2004, and before the Sandusky revelations, his most recent deal ran through the end of 2012.

ccording to university records, Mr. Paterno first expressed a desire to revisit his contract in January 2011. It was very early in that month that he learned he had been subpoenaed to testify before the Sandusky grand jury.

But it was not until summer — after Mr. Paterno, the university president and two other senior officials at the university had all testified before the Sandusky grand jury — that the idea that Mr. Paterno might retire in exchange for a multimillion-dollar payout gained traction.

By August, a deal had effectively been reached, though it and the idea that Mr. Paterno might make 2011 his last season had not been announced at the time. Details of the agreement were known to a handful of board members but not shared with the full board, according to people with knowledge of the events.

On Nov. 5, 2011, Mr. Sandusky was arrested, and two Penn State administrators — men who were Mr. Paterno’s superiors — were indicted on charges of failing to report to the authorities a 2001 allegation that Mr. Sandusky had attacked a young boy in the football building’s showers.

Quickly, it became clear that Mr. Paterno, too, had failed to go to the authorities or even to confront Mr. Sandusky after he had been told in person of the episode. The prospect that Mr. Paterno, a revered figure, might be fired by the board of trustees was suddenly real.

Mr. Paterno quickly issued a statement saying, in effect, that the board need not act, that he would resign at the end of the season. Neither he nor the university revealed that he had effectively agreed to do so already, in return for an expensive financial package.

The board fired him anyway, a decision that caused rioting and led to an angry and often very personal backlash against the trustees, but it agreed to honor his contract. It was then that the full board came to find out what the university was obligated to pay Mr. Paterno.

Over the ensuing months, as revelations about the role Mr. Paterno and other university officials played in the scandal mounted, a schism developed among the board members, according to several people with knowledge of the events.

There were some who argued that it was unseemly to pay the remainder of the money and other perks owed to Mr. Paterno, according to several people with knowledge of the discussions. They wondered whether, given Mr. Paterno’s failings, it might be possible to nullify the contract, or at least renegotiate it and reduce the payout, the people said.

Others worried about the hostility they would face if they tried to strip Mr. Paterno, still beloved in many quarters of the campus, of money that he was contractually owed — a prospect that grew even more worrisome after he died on Jan. 22 this year. During a conference call, one board member worried aloud that failure to make good on what was owed to the Paterno estate could lead to another “reign of terror” by Mr. Paterno’s supporters, according to a person who was on the call.With rumblings that the Paterno family was thinking of suing the board of trustees for defamation, the board dispatched its lawyer to negotiate the final payments. All the board wanted in return was a release protecting the university from such a lawsuit.

The Paternos refused. Mr. Sollers said in his statement that “the retention of their legal rights in a case of this magnitude and complexity is customary and appropriate.”

The board of trustees ultimately agreed to make good on the full package anyhow, and in April paid what was owed to the Paternos. Additional demands, like the desire by Mr. Paterno’s wife to make use of the athletic department’s hydrotherapy facilities, were met. The board did draw the line at the family’s request to use the university’s corporate jet, arguing that the contract limited that use to the coach himself. And it refused the family’s demand to retain use of the stadium box next to the university president’s, the one reserved for the head coach, offering the family the choice of two other suites on a different floor.

Still, Frank T. Guadagnino, a lawyer hired by the board in November to handle a variety of aspects of the scandal, suggested that the board felt it did not have much maneuvering room when it came to the discussions with the Paterno family.

“We were providing for payments due under the contract,” he said in an interview Friday. “So we weren’t really negotiating.”

He added that, given revelations in the independent report released this week that suggest that Mr. Paterno knew about allegations of child abuse involving Mr. Sandusky as far back as 1998, the question over whether the university could rightfully renege on paying the Paterno family what was owed under the August amendments was “complicated,” and one that “we haven’t looked at.”

At a board of trustees news conference Friday, Karen B. Peetz, the board’s chairwoman, made clear that the issue would not be revisited. “Contracts are contracts,” she said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/14/sports/ncaafootball/joe-paterno-got-richer-contract-amid-jerry-sandusky-inquiry.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2&hp

iowatreat54
07-14-2012, 03:20 PM
I actually know the head academic advisor to the football team at PSU, not to mention numerous players and former players. Joe ran a tight ship with academics, trust me on that one.

Have you at least accepted yet that Paterno isn't the saint that you've tried to convince us he was?

Santonio10
07-14-2012, 06:37 PM
Have you at least accepted yet that Paterno isn't the saint that you've tried to convince us he was?

I never said he was a saint nor did I try to convince anyone he was. I've accepted that he f***** up and that he's not perfect, just like you and me. To this day he is still the only one to man up and admit any guilt. I just thought that it was fair to wait until all of the facts came out before concluding any opinion of him. I feel as though that is a reasonable way to look at it. Not to mention a lot of the things that people have taken as facts are not facts at all and that's frustrating. If he would have coached at Iowa the past 61 years you would feel the same way that a lot of PSU fans do now (not the looney ones who think he did nothing wrong, but the ones who waited for the facts to come out)

Smooth Criminal
07-14-2012, 06:52 PM
The NY times thing is ridiculous.

And the rich pedophile pimp theory is probably not that ridiculous to think possible. Tight rings like that have been found and busted and youth groups/charities have been a big part of many of them. Easy way to hide transactions and such. Probably not likely, but I wouldn't be shocked if he had other pedophile friends. Pretty unlikely that PSU knew about that though, that would have been a Sandusky only thing.

descendency
07-14-2012, 07:44 PM
alot of the recent penalties handed out by the NCAA affect people that had nothing to do with initial crimes. take USC for instance. lane kiffin wasn't the coach when the reggie bush scandal went down. most of the players that got punished for the crime weren't even in high school when the scandal went down.

story of the NCAA. IMO, it really doesn't have anything to do with what's fair and who's involved. its just the NCAA coming down hard on the institution for making the NCAA look bad. "you fool me once, well **** you" is their motto.

I tend to agree with your response, but part of me sees a difference between the USC issue and the PSU (other than this was something unrelated to the actual games).

I still feel that this needs a different way of thinking with this problem.

Smooth Criminal
07-14-2012, 09:21 PM
I agree this needs a way different way of thinking.

USC had Bush get money. Ohio State had players sell jerseys.

Penn State needs punished in a whole different way of thinking than either of those two. The more I think about it an the more I read the more supportive I am of the idea of shutting the whole thing down for at least a year.

Football was too important then and it should not be important at all now.

WCH
07-14-2012, 09:42 PM
The NY times thing is ridiculous.

And the rich pedophile pimp theory is probably not that ridiculous to think possible. Tight rings like that have been found and busted and youth groups/charities have been a big part of many of them. Easy way to hide transactions and such. Probably not likely, but I wouldn't be shocked if he had other pedophile friends. Pretty unlikely that PSU knew about that though, that would have been a Sandusky only thing.

This is slightly off-topic and highly speculative, but one of Michael Jackson's brothers has strongly implied that their father would pimp MJ out to wealthy business types when he was just a kid, during the Jackson 5 days.

You hear a lot of similar stories from a lot of sources. I could easily see Sandusky pimping out kids and laundering the money through his organization. I agree that it's a long shot; and if it happened, PSU probably didn't know anything about it. It is plausible, though.

I agree this needs a way different way of thinking.

USC had Bush get money. Ohio State had players sell jerseys.

Penn State needs punished in a whole different way of thinking than either of those two. The more I think about it an the more I read the more supportive I am of the idea of shutting the whole thing down for at least a year.

Football was too important then and it should not be important at all now.

I think that they should be booted from the Big-10, also. I don't have anything against them being in the Big-10. As a Michigan fan, some of my favorite games have been against PSU (as well as OSU, MSU, and Wisconsin). I'd just really hate to hear and see the fan response if they have to go into Ann Arbor, Columbus, or Madison. It would be brutal.

I say shut the thing down for a year and go independent. It'd be tough for the conference this year, but the Big-10 would have no shortage of schools that they could pick up for 2013.

JoeJoeBrown
07-15-2012, 12:02 AM
This is slightly off-topic and highly speculative, but one of Michael Jackson's brothers has strongly implied that their father would pimp MJ out to wealthy business types when he was just a kid, during the Jackson 5 days.

You hear a lot of similar stories from a lot of sources. I could easily see Sandusky pimping out kids and laundering the money through his organization. I agree that it's a long shot; and if it happened, PSU probably didn't know anything about it. It is plausible, though.



I think that they should be booted from the Big-10, also. I don't have anything against them being in the Big-10. As a Michigan fan, some of my favorite games have been against PSU (as well as OSU, MSU, and Wisconsin). I'd just really hate to hear and see the fan response if they have to go into Ann Arbor, Columbus, or Madison. It would be brutal.

I say shut the thing down for a year and go independent. It'd be tough for the conference this year, but the Big-10 would have no shortage of schools that they could pick up for 2013.

Good thoughts.

This is a good summary from Penn Live (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/07/analysis_freeh_report_sheds_ne.html). It addresses most of the crazy rumors and whatnot that this sordid affair has brought forward.

Smooth Criminal
07-15-2012, 07:37 AM
I'd have no problem booting them from the Big Ten. Not like there wouldn't be teams lining up to replace them.

But part of that depends on how Penn State reacts. If they impose a self ban and take down the statue then I'm ok with waiting for them.

But if they, as a Board member is quoted, "Hoping they can have more time pass and people will forget about it," then no, I'm not ok with keeping them. This definitely isn't something that should just go away. But I fear, with our media, that it will. As soon as Howard gets traded ESPN will have something new to talk about.

descendency
07-15-2012, 08:00 AM
I'd have no problem booting them from the Big Ten. Not like there wouldn't be teams lining up to replace them.

With the revenue generated by the Big 10, teams will line up to get in. The problem is whether or not the Big 10 wants them.

If Clemson and Florida State do not go to the Big 12, the next Big 10 member might as well come from the conference (Texas?).

lol at that quote.

Grizzlegom
07-15-2012, 09:00 AM
I know its not people on here but seriously, **** stupid people. The majority of my non-work wardrobe is Penn State shirts and I wore one to the mall yesterday and here is the list of things complete strangers said to me:

"Go **** yourself"
"You should tear up your diploma"
"I hope you rot in hell with Paterno"
"How can you have a kid and still support Penn State, how would you feel if it was him that got raped?" (Points at my three year old son)

I mentioned something like this last time and y'all told me to just ignore the stupid people but I can't explain how bad I wanted to beat the **** out of the person that said the last one. I guess I'll just have to buy new clothes for a while or not where Penn State stuff in public.

Prowler
07-15-2012, 09:14 AM
I'm actually in favor of culling 30% of our population. If they were real men, they would say that stuff to the actual people involved. They are just the same idiots who think that cashiers at walmart are in charge of pricing or policymaking.

JoeJoeBrown
07-15-2012, 09:17 AM
I know its not people on here but seriously, **** stupid people. The majority of my non-work wardrobe is Penn State shirts and I wore one to the mall yesterday and here is the list of things complete strangers said to me:

"Go **** yourself"
"You should tear up your diploma"
"I hope you rot in hell with Paterno"
"How can you have a kid and still support Penn State, how would you feel if it was him that got raped?" (Points at my three year old son)

I mentioned something like this last time and y'all told me to just ignore the stupid people but I can't explain how bad I wanted to beat the **** out of the person that said the last one. I guess I'll just have to buy new clothes for a while or not where Penn State stuff in public.

People suck. That last one angers the hell out of me.

I went through it on a minor scale with OSU the past few years. It's not worth the needless angst man.

One of my PSU friends here won't wear her PSU clothes now, just because of random aholes.

Don't let jerks like that ruin your day.

JoeJoeBrown
07-15-2012, 07:34 PM
Excellent Wetzel article on the arrogance of Spanier. (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaaf--graham-spanier-penn-state-freeh-report-joe-paterno-curtis-enis-jeff-nalley.html)

MI_Buckeye
07-16-2012, 07:41 AM
I thought this was interesting: http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/110211aaa.html

Three public schools show up on that list: PSU, Miami, and Rutgers. The rest are private schools or military schools. PSU and Miami have both been recently caught up in major scandals.

Rutgers doesn't seem out of place on that list (they're an elite research university, on par with Ivy League schools), but when Miami ties the US Military Academy and Penn State ties Stanford...

But I'll take Santonio's word unless evidence comes out.

Miami is a private school and actually has a strong academic reputation.

WCH
07-16-2012, 08:00 AM
Miami is a private school and actually has a strong academic reputation.

I knew it had a strong academic reputation, but I was thinking they were public for some reason.

Okay, so two of them are public. One is Rutgers, the other is Penn State.

YAYareaRB
07-16-2012, 10:51 AM
I tend to agree with your response, but part of me sees a difference between the USC issue and the PSU (other than this was something unrelated to the actual games).

I still feel that this needs a different way of thinking with this problem.

yes this is definitely a special case, far outweighing any recruitment and money violations. i too see the difference and as a friend of someone on the team, i hope they don't come down too hard on the PLAYERS.

but, like i said, "the NCAA do what the NCAA do"

Complex
07-16-2012, 01:41 PM
Paterno has plenty to say on a variety of topics.

--SMU: "It's unbelievable to think that kind of corruption came right from the top of the power structure. The NCAA did what it had to do" in canceling SMU's 1988 football season.



http://articles.latimes.com/1987-05-17/sports/sp-774_1_joe-paterno/2

Smooth Criminal
07-16-2012, 03:07 PM
Paterno's conducting their own investigation is just kind of pathetic. Its not like anyone will trust their results over the findings of Freeh. And they look like real assholes after begging people to wait for the facts before reaching a judgement, then when they decided they didn't like the facts they decided to call them opinions and conduct their own investigation.

I really think they'd be better served with the "No one is perfect, Joe made mistakes but also did great things. Were sorry to the victims, their families, and the university." instead they throw a hissy fit and remain in denial.

Giantsfan1080
07-16-2012, 03:25 PM
Paterno's conducting their own investigation is just kind of pathetic. Its not like anyone will trust their results over the findings of Freeh. And they look like real assholes after begging people to wait for the facts before reaching a judgement, then when they decided they didn't like the facts they decided to call them opinions and conduct their own investigation.

I really think they'd be better served with the "No one is perfect, Joe made mistakes but also did great things. Were sorry to the victims, their families, and the university." instead they throw a hissy fit and remain in denial.

They're trying to protect their money.

Smooth Criminal
07-16-2012, 03:35 PM
They're trying to protect their money.

That's more cynical than my first thought that they really are in denial that the man they knew and loved kept something like this hidden, but it's much more likely that you're right.

Though, their own investigation isn't likely to be viewed more credible than someone like Freeh's. So they're probably just wasting more of their money.

iowatreat54
07-16-2012, 04:09 PM
That's more cynical than my first thought that they really are in denial that the man they knew and loved kept something like this hidden, but it's much more likely that you're right.

Though, their own investigation isn't likely to be viewed more credible than someone like Freeh's. So they're probably just wasting more of their money.

I pretty much agree with you, but they are probably doing it so that when they inevitably go to court and are presented with the Freeh report against them, they can then counter with, "well, we have our own independent report..." Even though everyone will know what it is, in court it will probably look better than just saying, "Well, that report is wrong and you can do another investigation to turn up different results."

But having not followed the whole saga all that closely, has anyone in the Paterno family come out and said even anything close to what you suggested? Like, just admit mistakes were made, don't try to blame anyone else, and give your prayers and apologies to the victims and their families. Pretty sure that would go a long way...

JoeJoeBrown
07-16-2012, 04:31 PM
http://articles.latimes.com/1987-05-17/sports/sp-774_1_joe-paterno/2

The arrogance and hypocrisy of the top PSU officials is sickening.

Smooth Criminal
07-16-2012, 04:46 PM
I havnt seen any statement from them with true remorse. They've all been denial based really.

Complex
07-16-2012, 04:57 PM
Three men have told investigators that Jerry Sandusky, the former Penn State defensive coordinator recently convicted of 45 counts of child sex abuse, molested them in the 1970s and 1980s, The Patriot-News of Harrisburg, Pa., has reported, citing sources close to the case.

None of Sandusky's 10 previously known victims had predated the 1990s, and in his report released Thursday, former FBI director Louis Freeh said his review for Penn State's board of trustees had not found evidence predating the '90s.

One of the three new accusers says he was abused in the early 1970s, the report says. Sandusky's defense had argued in his trial that a person doesn't become a pedophile in his or her 50s. Sandusky turned 68 in January.

The police are aware of the three new accusers, according to the report.

The Pennsylvania grand jury that brought the Sandusky indictment is still meeting and could potentially hear testimony from more potential victims, The Patriot-News report said.

But it is not known whether the attorney general's office would be open to filing more charges.

Freeh's team interviewed more than 430 people and reviewed more than 3 million documents.

The 267-page Freeh report concluded that former Penn State coach Joe Paterno -- along with former president Graham Spanier, athletic director Tim Curley and former vice president Gary Schultz -- conducted a cover-up of abuse allegations against Sandusky.

Sandusky faces a minimum of 60 years in prison and is awaiting sentencing, which could take months to complete.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8170790/penn-state-nittany-lions-new-jerry-sandusky-accusers-say-abuse-dates-1970s-report-says

BuckeyeDan17
07-16-2012, 06:01 PM
Most would agree people don't become pedophiles when they become 50. They have been their entire lives. I don't see how that's a defense, if anything, saying that weakened it. Which makes it more disturbing because there's probably a countless amount of unknown victims.

I doubt this hasn't already been said anyway, JMO.

Santonio10
07-17-2012, 10:45 AM
Did anyone here read the full report?

Smooth Criminal
07-17-2012, 11:44 AM
Thought about it, got about a quarter of the way through and it got too repetitive and disgusting to continue. Not to mention it was way easier to get the highlights from his interview.

Giantsfan1080
07-17-2012, 11:47 AM
Same here. Too sickening for me to read everything.

Santonio10
07-17-2012, 12:23 PM
I find it interesting that Freeh chose not to interview Paterno, Curley, Schultz or McQueary after people praise it for how thorough of an investigation this was. Doesn't make sense to interview 400 people and exclude the 4 most important ones.

Prowler
07-17-2012, 12:26 PM
I don't want to waste my time with that crap. I'd rather trust journalists to do that stuff for me.

Giantsfan1080
07-17-2012, 12:30 PM
Paterno was dead and the other guys besides McQueary are undergoing criminal trials. He didn't have subpoena power.

Prowler
07-17-2012, 12:42 PM
McQueary says he "reached out" to the investigation, but they never made a move to interview him. I'm not sure why they wouldn't. That is weird, but McQ is already on record and testified about the proceedings in court. Everything that they needed to know would have been provided for during the trial and submitted testimony.

Philliez01
07-17-2012, 12:57 PM
My only guess is that the investigation was solely focused on the actions of leadership at Penn State as opposed to the entire program. McQueary's testimony/actions are important but I assume since he didn't have the power to make any moves in regards to Sandusky since he was a lowly grad assistant.

Just my guess.

JoeJoeBrown
07-17-2012, 01:33 PM
I find it interesting that Freeh chose not to interview Paterno, Curley, Schultz or McQueary after people praise it for how thorough of an investigation this was. Doesn't make sense to interview 400 people and exclude the 4 most important ones.

I didn't read it. Only perused it. Like others, let others that are getting paid to read it do so and get back to me.

WRT interviewing those guys, you have GOT to be kidding me. Freeh had ZERO subpoena powers. And I guarantee you that every one of their lawyers said no way are we talking to Freeh so as to not have anything on record to trip up their clients.

Also, Paterno was dying or dead during the investigation, so that's ridiculous.

You can keep grasping at straws if you'd like. I'm not sure what you are grasping at or trying to prove.

These men were all dirty/evil people. A whole bunch of people were fed a lie and it's not fault of theirs that the lie was so elaborate and well executed that they believed it.

If I were a PSU guy, I wouldn't lump myself in with the people that still believe that JVP, Spanier, Curley, and Schultz weren't bad. It's silly and pointless.

The Feds are going to blow this thing up. They have subpoena powers. They will investigate PSU and they will investigate TSM, and a whole bunch of other things. The case is huge and high profile. There is no way this is over.

No football factory wants the Feds poking around in their business. Every FBS program has a bunch of dirty crap going on behind the scenes. Some minor, the big programs definitely have major unethical and likely illegal things going on (mostly tax evasion type stuff, which occurs with money funneling and slush funds).

For example, I can almost guarantee that the reason OSU got hammered so hard wasn't because of JT covering for his players. I think it was because of that slimy booster DiGeronimo that the NCAA discovered out of Cleveland. He took the fall, but a bunch of money goes through booster hands to players. Who knows what kind of slush funds OSU has? If the Feds had cause to investigate them, they'd likely find out.

It's a major reason why I want to see the sport professionalized. It would make the paying of players up front and legal. There wouldn't be this shady covering up stuff of a bunch of things, no need to do so. Sandusky wouldn't have been able to get away with raping kids since the 70's.

Smooth Criminal
07-17-2012, 06:54 PM
I'm glad it appears from the comments today that Penn State will be getting some sort of very heavy sanction for this. Which makes me happy simply because it wont be forgotten in the coming months as the boosters want.

Complex
07-17-2012, 11:45 PM
http://i.imgur.com/FMp14.jpg

yo123
07-18-2012, 01:20 AM
They really need to just blow up that entire campus.

JoeJoeBrown
07-18-2012, 03:21 AM
They really need to just blow up that entire campus.

I just can't understand that mentality. To defend the corrupt powerful people that would just as soon abuse you with prejudice if you stood in their way.

Smooth Criminal
07-18-2012, 06:35 AM
That's just pretty pathetic that this is what that kid gets passionate about enough to stay overnight. It absolutely has to come down, both because it's the most hypocritical thing I've seen in awhile, and because it will serve as an embarrassment to the school every time someone sees it. Not to mention it is very likely to get vandalized.

Giantsfan1080
07-18-2012, 07:38 AM
I'm trying to give some of these Penn Staters a break because the way everything happened but some of them are just ridiculous. They aren't even thinking.

Smooth Criminal
07-18-2012, 08:53 AM
I don't think I have that kind of blind loyalty to anything. There no one I would still support if I found out they did this kind of stuff.

Santonio10
07-18-2012, 03:49 PM
I don't think I have that kind of blind loyalty to anything. There no one I would still support if I found out they did this kind of stuff.

Blind loyalty? What about blind hatred? People just blindly accept what ESPN (yes, the same ESPN that held onto evidence against Bernie Fine but didn't bother doing anything with it) and what all of the talking heads have to say about what happened, but don't even bother with any of the real evidence or facts. It's honestly hysterical to watch everyone bash PSU but they don't even know what really happened yet. That's right, no one does because all of the evidence and facts haven't come out yet. People just want blood because PSU/Paterno have created an atmosphere about doing things the right way and are known for it. The media has created a clusterf*** of misinformation to create juicy stories and it's really sad how far some of them have taken it. The worst part is, people just blindly believe everything these "jounalists" write, regardless of whether they actually know they are talking about or not.

It's funny how I get piled on simply because I don't believe there was a cover up. But at the same time, no one has taken the time to even read the report. I have read the report and Freeh doesn't give any evidence to support why he says there was a cover up. Not a single shred of it. He makes a lot of bold assumptions, and that's about it. I'm not the only one who can see the holes in the Freeh Report either:

http://www.johnziegler.com/editorials_details.asp?editorial=219

There are A LOT of assumptions made in this report. Take some time to read it, I encourage you to do so. If you can't see that the Freeh report is nothing more than an opinion, then you are truly a blind hater and simply want blood just to be like everyone else.

Isn't it ironic that this report puts so much focus on Paterno that the Board of Trustees goes nearly completely unnoticed? Isn't it funny how you can write anything you want about a dead man with no ramifications whatsoever? Isn't it funny how no one from Penn State has stood up to defend the beating that the University has taken? It's almost like they wanted it this way. The lack of leadership is just unbelievable.

Oh, and in case no one knows who Louis Freeh is, please take a second to read about some of his actions as director of the FBI. Absolutely horrifying.

http://lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson344.html

Hell, if you wanted to pay me six million dollars, I would write anything you wanted me to.

brat316
07-18-2012, 03:55 PM
How come no is asking Tom Corbett questions? He was the DA when it first happened, why didn't they do more to follow through with it


I think a lot of it is, people just want to rub it in PSU and Joe's face. Think about it, for a guy and school who preech about doing things the right way, and they don't take a wrong step, the minute someone slips up don't you just rub it in their face? Yeah they were wrong, but some of the things people are talking about is ridiculous.

Prowler
07-18-2012, 03:59 PM
Blind loyalty? What about blind hatred? People just blindly accept what ESPN (yes, the same ESPN that held onto evidence against Bernie Fine but didn't bother doing anything with it) and what all of the talking heads have to say about what happened, but don't even bother with any of the real evidence or facts. It's honestly hysterical to watch everyone bash PSU but they don't even know what really happened yet. That's right, no one does because all of the evidence and facts haven't come out yet.

You see...the problem with your statements are that they completely ignore the recent Sandusky trial and testimony of all the victims who testified. I would seriously hope that people know what happened, since you know...they sentenced Sandusky to prison. Pointing the finger at the board of trustees is just useless. That's just further spreading more blame and probably the product of spin put out by Spanier, Curly, and Schultz's people.

Do you think those guys or the entire board of trustees covered everything up? The board of trustees can't even agree on basic budget concerns, let alone orchestrate a systemic cover-up of child rape.

Smooth Criminal
07-18-2012, 04:27 PM
Yes. Everyone is just overreacting and we should all stop rubbing this in Penn States faces. Rival fans are just giddy kids got molested so they now have something to make fun of Penn State for.

Wrong. People and pissed and shocked and calling for "crazy" actions to be taken because this is absolutely disgusting behavior. Nothing more, nothing less. Demanding people go to jail, a statue come down, or a school stop playing football are really not crazy responses to the most disgusting cover up I've ever seen.

andyjo672
07-18-2012, 04:27 PM
Blind loyalty? What about blind hatred? People just blindly accept what ESPN (yes, the same ESPN that held onto evidence against Bernie Fine but didn't bother doing anything with it) and what all of the talking heads have to say about what happened, but don't even bother with any of the real evidence or facts. It's honestly hysterical to watch everyone bash PSU but they don't even know what really happened yet. That's right, no one does because all of the evidence and facts haven't come out yet. People just want blood because PSU/Paterno have created an atmosphere about doing things the right way and are known for it. The media has created a clusterf*** of misinformation to create juicy stories and it's really sad how far some of them have taken it. The worst part is, people just blindly believe everything these "jounalists" write, regardless of whether they actually know they are talking about or not.

It's funny how I get piled on simply because I don't believe there was a cover up. But at the same time, no one has taken the time to even read the report. I have read the report and Freeh doesn't give any evidence to support why he says there was a cover up. Not a single shred of it. He makes a lot of bold assumptions, and that's about it. I'm not the only one who can see the holes in the Freeh Report either:

http://www.johnziegler.com/editorials_details.asp?editorial=219

There are A LOT of assumptions made in this report. Take some time to read it, I encourage you to do so. If you can't see that the Freeh report is nothing more than an opinion, then you are truly a blind hater and simply want blood just to be like everyone else.

Isn't it ironic that this report puts so much focus on Paterno that the Board of Trustees goes nearly completely unnoticed? Isn't it funny how you can write anything you want about a dead man with no ramifications whatsoever? Isn't it funny how no one from Penn State has stood up to defend the beating that the University has taken? It's almost like they wanted it this way. The lack of leadership is just unbelievable.

Oh, and in case no one knows who Louis Freeh is, please take a second to read about some of his actions as director of the FBI. Absolutely horrifying.

http://lewrockwell.com/anderson/anderson344.html

Hell, if you wanted to pay me six million dollars, I would write anything you wanted me to.

The burden of proof that you're requiring to be convinced there was a cover up is beyond ridiculous. The emails that were released clearly illustrate that Joe was made aware of the goings on with regard to Sandusky well before the date he told the a grand jury. Also, the court of public opinion does not require the case be beyond any reasonable doubt (even though, in my opinion, it is even beyond that).

Also, when trying to provide counter evidence to an argument it's generally best to provide links to actual professional writers/bloggers and not hacks like you did. Furthermore, my favorite tactic that your ilk have used (and you did too!) is the character assassination attempts on Freeh himself. The irony in it that "Hey Freeh did bad stuff at one point in time, therefore don't listen to him because he's bad" is hysterical when pressed up against "Paterno did so many great things in his time, don't let one mistake ruin the man's legacy" that PSU supporters love trumpeting out.

Listen, I get it. This thing that you held dear for so long is now found to have a rotten core. It's tough to acknowledge, I'm sure. But if you want to have an actual discussion about it I suggest being a bit more introspective and understanding why people are so upset about it. The acts themselves and the cover up that went with it are disgusting and I just hope that people like you come around to admit that.

Smooth Criminal
07-18-2012, 04:31 PM
I don't blindly accept things from ESPn. But yes, I do quite confidently, accept the findings of a report conducted by the former director of the FBI, hired independently by the university. I also accept pretty easily the grand jury testimony of these people.

The Freeh report is more than just someone's opinion. It is a well qualified person who conducted a huge investigation and came to conclussions. You say they would say anything they wanted for money, why would the people that hired him want him to find that there was a cover up?

Now, of course ESPNs coverage focuses more heavily on Paterno because he's the person people are interested in and know the most about. However, the Freeh report didn't mention Paterno because he was popular, but because he was heavily involved.

But yes. You're probably right. It's all just an opinion and we shouldn't all assume Paterno did anything wrong.

Not believing the investigation of the former director of the FBI qualifies as blind loyalty to me.

Brodeur
07-18-2012, 04:34 PM
Freeh blew Waco and covered up hangings involving the Oklahoma City bombings? THIS IS BRAND NEW INFORMATION.

JoeJoeBrown
07-19-2012, 11:28 AM
I can't even believe the crap I just read.

What shift are you taking to guard JoePa's statue, Santonio?

Santonio10
07-19-2012, 02:02 PM
I can't even believe the crap I just read.

What shift are you taking to guard JoePa's statue, Santonio?

I honestly couldn't care less what they do with it. PSU will move on with or without it. I just think it would be fair to wait until all of the information comes out regarding the Schultz/Curley case and Paterno's role in it. If in fact he did cover it up, then get rid of it obviously and move the f on

tjsunstein
07-19-2012, 02:16 PM
I honestly couldn't care less what they do with it. PSU will move on with or without it. I just think it would be fair to wait until all of the information comes out regarding the Schultz/Curley case and Paterno's role in it. If in fact he did cover it up, then get rid of it obviously and move the f on

Your 360 GT is very fitting.

Smooth Criminal
07-19-2012, 02:36 PM
How long are we supposed to wait for more information to come out? There's plenty of information out already. I highly doubt there's gonna be some shocking new evidence that proves Paterno had nothing to do with it after all like some PSU fans seem to be waiting for.

Santonio10
07-19-2012, 03:16 PM
How long are we supposed to wait for more information to come out? There's plenty of information out already. I highly doubt there's gonna be some shocking new evidence that proves Paterno had nothing to do with it after all like some PSU fans seem to be waiting for.

TBH, the vast majority of PSU fans accept that Paterno should have done more. It's the cover up that the majority of us don't buy. He reports it to his AD and the head of police and then tried later to cover it up? Doesn't make sense to me. If he wanted to cover it up then why even risk reporting to the head of police in the first place?

There is still the Schultz/Curley and possibly Spanier trial yet. The big piece of info I'm waiting on is the conversation between Curley and Paterno that Lead to the e-mail where Curley changes his mind. There are more than one way to interpret the e-mail that supposedly condemns Paterno. Yes a cover up is one way to interpret it, but Joe could have said something as simple as "maybe you should talk to Jerry about what happened first" and could have elicited the same e-mail from Curley. It's also possible they didn't even discuss what to do next and Curley simply wanted to get a feel for what McQueary said during their conversation.

If he indeed saw a rape, then why would his dad and Dr. Dranov tell him to go to the head football coach? That suggests that he either a) didn't see a rape, b) saw a rape, was an incoherent mess (understandably) and didn't do a very good job at explaining what he saw to his dad/Dranov or Paterno and should have called the cops himself, or c) thought there was something suspicious going on, but never actually saw anything (he said himself that he didn't see penetration) and was so shocked that he became an incoherent mess and didn't explain it very well to anyone.

andyjo672
07-19-2012, 03:24 PM
I honestly couldn't care less what they do with it. PSU will move on with or without it. I just think it would be fair to wait until all of the information comes out regarding the Schultz/Curley case and Paterno's role in it. If in fact he did cover it up, then get rid of it obviously and move the f on

What kind of magical information are you expecting to hear? Anything that could have exonerated them from this mess they would have brought up on their own during their grand jury testimony. Instead they lied during that time period to create the sense they did everything they could do and subsequently information has come out that contradicts their claims. If anything, I would anticipate the only information that will trickle out is additional evidence that they knowingly screwed up otherwise they would have volunteered any information that would help their case from the get go. The fact of the matter is, there is none.

Prowler
07-19-2012, 03:25 PM
McQ is just as guilty and got a promotion out of it. As for the rest, they should have gotten outside agencies involved instead of their half-assed effort at being "humane". The lack of outrage by them to do more is what constitutes a cover-up. They had an obligation to do more.

andyjo672
07-19-2012, 03:46 PM
TBH, the vast majority of PSU fans accept that Paterno should have done more. It's the cover up that the majority of us don't buy. He reports it to his AD and the head of police and then tried later to cover it up? Doesn't make sense to me. If he wanted to cover it up then why even risk reporting to the head of police in the first place?

There is still the Schultz/Curley and possibly Spanier trial yet. The big piece of info I'm waiting on is the conversation between Curley and Paterno that Lead to the e-mail where Curley changes his mind. There are more than one way to interpret the e-mail that supposedly condemns Paterno. Yes a cover up is one way to interpret it, but Joe could have said something as simple as "maybe you should talk to Jerry about what happened first" and could have elicited the same e-mail from Curley. It's also possible they didn't even discuss what to do next and Curley simply wanted to get a feel for what McQueary said during their conversation.

If he indeed saw a rape, then why would his dad and Dr. Dranov tell him to go to the head football coach? That suggests that he either a) didn't see a rape, b) saw a rape, was an incoherent mess (understandably) and didn't do a very good job at explaining what he saw to his dad/Dranov or Paterno and should have called the cops himself, or c) thought there was something suspicious going on, but never actually saw anything (he said himself that he didn't see penetration) and was so shocked that he became an incoherent mess and didn't explain it very well to anyone.

Wait, you use the fact that he maybe said "go talk to Jerry first" as acceptable behavior/rationale for not going to the proper authorities immediately? If so, then I think we've identified the problem with your reasoning which is, simply put, that you don't feel like the alleged (well not alleged anymore) crimes that occurred did not warrant IMMEDIATE action. If that's the case, and your and other supporters' cavalier attitudes are really disgusting.

Santonio10
07-19-2012, 06:15 PM
Wait, you use the fact that he maybe said "go talk to Jerry first" as acceptable behavior/rationale for not going to the proper authorities immediately? If so, then I think we've identified the problem with your reasoning which is, simply put, that you don't feel like the alleged (well not alleged anymore) crimes that occurred did not warrant IMMEDIATE action. If that's the case, and your and other supporters' cavalier attitudes are really disgusting.

So you're saying that I agree with Tim Curley's decision to not go to the police? That's absolutely ridiculous.

I just find it ridiculous to place this much blame on the only person who actually did anything. Should Joe have done more? Yes. I have said that numerous times already. I just don't buy that he tried to orchestrate a cover up, nor do I believe that these four men MALICIOUSLY covered up a child molester to protect PSU's image. There is a logical reason they came to that decision. Would Penn State's image be better or worse overall if Sandusky were found guilty in 2001 rather than 2012?

Prowler
07-19-2012, 06:43 PM
I just don't buy that he tried to orchestrate a cover up, nor do I believe that these four men MALICIOUSLY covered up a child molester to protect PSU's image. There is a logical reason they came to that decision. Would Penn State's image be better or worse overall if Sandusky were found guilty in 2001 rather than 2012?

Even if they are given every single benefit of the doubt in not maliciously covering this up, they still showed too much restraint in dealing with the situation. They were too close to the situation and had too much invested to make any real judgement calls. They needed to have people interview Sandusky and talk to the kids at 2nd Mile. There was zero digging. Its like knowing that someone sent you someone's graduation money in the mail by mistake. Instead of correcting the mistake, they just let it go. They had a vested interest in not correcting the mistake. Now, switch that with reputation and child rape.

If they would have blown this up in 2001 then Penn State would still stand for some integrity and people would not be as harassed on the street. There would be a few comments, but Nittany Lions could still be proud of their organization. Now, they might as well bulldoze the school and start over.

andyjo672
07-19-2012, 07:16 PM
So you're saying that I agree with Tim Curley's decision to not go to the police? That's absolutely ridiculous.

I just find it ridiculous to place this much blame on the only person who actually did anything. Should Joe have done more? Yes. I have said that numerous times already. I just don't buy that he tried to orchestrate a cover up, nor do I believe that these four men MALICIOUSLY covered up a child molester to protect PSU's image. There is a logical reason they came to that decision. Would Penn State's image be better or worse overall if Sandusky were found guilty in 2001 rather than 2012?

Here's their logical reason: "We need to cover our own asses" (pun definitely not intended). That's it. Not sure what you're getting at with the last rhetorical question. I think it's pretty apparent that had they acted appropriately and handed Sandusky in when they first were made aware of his activities it definitely reflects better on the University and the administration. And I have no problem going after Joe. Based on those emails it's clear that Joe said something to stop the others from going to the police. Even if that's not the ONLY reason they didn't do so, it still makes him a monster more concerned with covering his own reputation.

I really don't want to make it seem like I'm attacking you personally and I'm sure you're a very nice person. I just can't, for a second, understand, in light of everything, the blind loyalty that you're showing (along with many other PSU fans). You and the others are really the personification of everything that went wrong in Happy Valley that enabled these people to believe what they were doing was OK.

Edited to add: No, I wasn't inferring that you were OK with the decision to not go to the police. Just that you felt that potentially talking to Jerry before going to the police was appropriate, therefore insinuating that the crime really wasn't that severe. Look at it this way. You find someone murdered and you have a good idea who did it. Do you go confront that person first or call the police upon finding the dead body, regardless if that murderer is a friend of yours? Now, lets say you find out that rather than murder someone, this person stole your laptop computer. For which crime do you feel it appropriate to go to the police immediately? Which one do you feel is closer in brutality to Sandusky's crimes?

JoeJoeBrown
07-19-2012, 10:29 PM
Here's their logical reason: "We need to cover our own asses" (pun definitely not intended). That's it. Not sure what you're getting at with the last rhetorical question. I think it's pretty apparent that had they acted appropriately and handed Sandusky in when they first were made aware of his activities it definitely reflects better on the University and the administration. And I have no problem going after Joe. Based on those emails it's clear that Joe said something to stop the others from going to the police. Even if that's not the ONLY reason they didn't do so, it still makes him a monster more concerned with covering his own reputation.

I really don't want to make it seem like I'm attacking you personally and I'm sure you're a very nice person. I just can't, for a second, understand, in light of everything, the blind loyalty that you're showing (along with many other PSU fans). You and the others are really the personification of everything that went wrong in Happy Valley that enabled these people to believe what they were doing was OK.

Edited to add: No, I wasn't inferring that you were OK with the decision to not go to the police. Just that you felt that potentially talking to Jerry before going to the police was appropriate, therefore insinuating that the crime really wasn't that severe. Look at it this way. You find someone murdered and you have a good idea who did it. Do you go confront that person first or call the police upon finding the dead body, regardless if that murderer is a friend of yours? Now, lets say you find out that rather than murder someone, this person stole your laptop computer. For which crime do you feel it appropriate to go to the police immediately? Which one do you feel is closer in brutality to Sandusky's crimes?

I pretty much agree with everything andyjo has said in this thread, especially the past few pages.

Smooth Criminal
07-20-2012, 06:44 AM
By knowing it ws happening, and knowing what little he had done hadn't stopped it, yes Paterno is definitely a responsible party here.

Acting to the Freeh report, he had heard things like this for at least 14 years, starting in 1999, something he flat out lied about in his testimony.

How can you say one of the most, if not the most, powerful person at Penn state knew about this for 14 years and never made sure it was resolved, and then that he wasn't involved in the cover up? If he wasn't involved, don't you think he would have done something that actually, you know, fixed the problem rather than keep his mouth shut for years and continue to allow Sandusky on campus?

Just use you're brain. There's no way these other gys decided to cover it up, and successfully did it, without Joe being involved. If he wasnt included in the cover up, he would have ensured that Sandsusky was put in jail or at least properly investigated.

iowatreat54
07-20-2012, 09:59 AM
By knowing it ws happening, and knowing what little he had done hadn't stopped it, yes Paterno is definitely a responsible party here.

This pretty much sums up my entire view on this.

Do I think Paterno had some huge hidden agenda in all this? Probably not.

But he knew something was going on, and purposely chose NOT to do anything other than just mention it to his boss. As someone just mentioned, the lack of outrage towards this aspect of the whole situation by the PSU fan base is what irritates me the most. Between brushing it off as, "Oh well ya he could have done more, but at least he told someone," and acting like he had no power to do anything drastic or bring this out in the open, I just will never understand or sympathize with any PSU fans thinking those things.

When you hear something once, you may brush it off as a rumor. Twice, maye think a little harder, but still give the guy the benefit of the doubt. But when you hear about multiple incidents as it seems Paterno did, it's beyond the line of thinking that he'd be scared to falsely accuse someone of something.

JoeJoeBrown
07-20-2012, 10:15 AM
This pretty much sums up my entire view on this.

Do I think Paterno had some huge hidden agenda in all this? Probably not.

But he knew something was going on, and purposely chose NOT to do anything other than just mention it to his boss. As someone just mentioned, the lack of outrage towards this aspect of the whole situation by the PSU fan base is what irritates me the most. Between brushing it off as, "Oh well ya he could have done more, but at least he told someone," and acting like he had no power to do anything drastic or bring this out in the open, I just will never understand or sympathize with any PSU fans thinking those things.

When you hear something once, you may brush it off as a rumor. Twice, maye think a little harder, but still give the guy the benefit of the doubt. But when you hear about multiple incidents as it seems Paterno did, it's beyond the line of thinking that he'd be scared to falsely accuse someone of something.

Don't damn the entire fanbase.

But there is a sizable portion that has that insular, idiotic mentality you are describing.

Smooth Criminal
07-20-2012, 11:00 AM
Just saw on Twitter that the board of Trustees voted to take down the statue. It'll come down sometime this weekend. Timing and reactions will be interesting.

Had to happen. It would be a ridiculously hypocritical image if left standing on the campus. Can't wait to see if truly ignorant people protest this decision.

iowatreat54
07-20-2012, 11:12 AM
Don't damn the entire fanbase.

But there is a sizable portion that has that insular, idiotic mentality you are describing.

Right, I said I can't understand or sympathize with those that think that way. The ones that actually think and feel like normal human beings, I feel bad for them and how the mouthbreathers are making their entire fan base look.

JoeJoeBrown
07-20-2012, 11:29 AM
Right, I said I can't understand or sympathize with those that think that way. The ones that actually think and feel like normal human beings, I feel bad for them and how the mouthbreathers are making their entire fan base look.

Yep. I will be impressed if the sane PSU people step up and start vilifying the morons. Particularly powerful alumni like LaVarr has.

iowatreat54
07-20-2012, 11:42 AM
I know at this point it's getting redundant and we shouldn't be surprised, but oh....my....god...

http://bwi.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=36&tid=156418269&mid=156418269&sid=890&style=2

Penn State needs to tell all the haters "where to go" and shut up. The real victim was Coach Paterno. The BOTs caved in to pressure from the media and killed him. The BOTs should have ignored the media and ran them off campus and out of town

I just...I don't even.....he's trolling right? Please tell me he's just trolling...