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Giantsfan1080
06-22-2012, 08:51 PM
1. Ed Reed, Baltimore Ravens (194)
2. Troy Polamalu, Pittsburgh Steelers (157)
3. Earl Thomas, Seattle Seahawks (144)
4. Eric Berry, Kansas City Chiefs (121)
5. Eric Weddle, San Diego Chargers (118)
6. Adrian Wilson, Arizona Cardinals (109)
7. Kam Chancellor, Seattle Seahawks (71)
8. Jairus Byrd, Buffalo Bills (68)
9. Dashon Goldson, San Francisco 49ers (36)
10. Tyvon Branch, Oakland Raiders (28)


*Vote Total in Parentheses

Rosebud
06-22-2012, 08:52 PM
Did Kenny or Rolle get any votes?

Giantsfan1080
06-22-2012, 08:56 PM
Did Kenny or Rolle get any votes?

Yes Phillips was 2 points behind Branch so he was technically #11. Rolle only had 8 points.

ATLDirtyBirds
06-22-2012, 09:06 PM
6. Adrian Wilson


Wut.

Hurricanes25
06-22-2012, 09:09 PM
I never sent my list in but I'm surprised to see Reed and Polamalu #1 and 2. Name recognition, I guess. In no particular order, I think Berry, Thomas, and Weddle are the 3 best safeties in the league.

descendency
06-22-2012, 09:16 PM
9. Dashon Goldson, San Francisco 49ers

LOL. No.

OSUGiants17
06-22-2012, 09:28 PM
Can't believe KP missed this list. Weedle should be higher too. I actually left Berry off my list because I was only basing it on what we've already seen and having only seen one season(albeit a dominant one) I could put him above some of these guys, especially since I'm not sure how he will recover.

A Perfect Score
06-22-2012, 09:28 PM
I never sent my list in but I'm surprised to see Reed and Polamalu #1 and 2. Name recognition, I guess. In no particular order, I think Berry, Thomas, and Weddle are the 3 best safeties in the league.

Ed Reed is still the best safety in the NFL. Nobody DB outside Revis disrupts a passing game like Ed Reed.

I was close on this one as well, I had every one of these guys but Kam Chancellor in my Top 10.

Prowler
06-22-2012, 09:55 PM
I had Bethea at 6, Nick Collins, and Kenny Phillips rounding out 9 and 10. I left off Goldson, Branch, and Byrd.

Bulldogs
06-22-2012, 09:59 PM
I'll admit I completely forgot Eric Berry on my list, so it's funny he still wound up at #4.

TACKLE
06-22-2012, 10:03 PM
6. Adrian Wilson


Wut.

Yeah that was the first thing that stood out to me too.

ATLDirtyBirds
06-22-2012, 10:04 PM
Ed Reed is still the best safety in the NFL. Nobody DB outside Revis disrupts a passing game like Ed Reed.

I was close on this one as well, I had every one of these guys but Kam Chancellor in my Top 10.

Earl's better than Reed at this point.

NotMyJob
06-22-2012, 11:23 PM
i voted for Troy P at #2 just because i knew it was going down like that. the top 2 were set in stone whether anyone likes it or not, although i do agree with Ed going #1. Troy could be a bit further down the list.

i think if Nick Collins career wasn't in question he'd be top 5, as well. i was going to ***** about Eric Berry being so high after only playing a single season, but then i looked and saw i rated him #5. heh

Mufasa
06-22-2012, 11:47 PM
i voted for Troy P at #2 just because i knew it was going down like that.

Well that's a dumb way to vote

TACKLE
06-22-2012, 11:49 PM
Earl's better than Reed at this point.

At tackling, sure. In coverage, no. Give me the best coverage safety over all else.

jrdrylie
06-22-2012, 11:56 PM
I put Troy P very low on my list. I didn't even put Berry on my list. I think he gets vastly overrated on these boards. I loved him in college and as a prospect. But he had a good and then missed last year with an injury. He needs to show a bit more before he can be called a top five safety.

NotMyJob
06-23-2012, 12:01 AM
Well that's a dumb way to vote

lol yeah, i knew it wouldn't have mattered either way tho.

it'd be like voting for Herman Cain when you knew Mitt Romney was getting the nomination anyway.

...loved Black Walnut, man.

edit// but yeah, each of those guys made my list except Tyvon Branch and Adrian Wilson

tjsunstein
06-23-2012, 12:31 AM
I was curious to see what everyone thought of Collins on this board for a while but that time has passed.

phlysac
06-23-2012, 01:44 AM
9. Dashon Goldson, San Francisco 49ers

LOL. No.

Yeah, he could probably be higher. :P

Ness
06-23-2012, 02:03 AM
Yeah, he could probably be higher. :P

He had a hell of a year. Stuntin was a habit for him in 2011.

prock
06-23-2012, 02:09 AM
There aren't very many good safeties in the NFL.

OzTitan
06-23-2012, 02:32 AM
There aren't very many good safeties in the NFL.

I agree. I'd go as far as to say it is probably the hardest position in the entire league to find a truly elite high impact player for. They say QB is but I actually think S edges it out just slightly.

And that's because the position is extremely hard to be good at. Gotta tackle like Willis and cover like Revis, or most of the time a safety will be in the highlights for the wrong reason. Seemingly plenty of people call TroyP and Reed overrated. When people who make such claims stop to think, they need to ask themselves, relative to what? Certainly no one else at the position.

Norris
06-23-2012, 04:11 AM
I want to see Troy Polamalu, Pittsburgh Steelers on the top of list because both are really very great players.

TACKLE
06-23-2012, 04:14 AM
I will say this...whether it's this year or next year, when he gets back to 100%, Eric Berry will be the best defensive back in football not named Revis.

Complex
06-24-2012, 01:10 PM
Dashon Goldson is low, Adrian Wilson is overrated,Kam Chancellor is underrated and Eric Berry is overrated he had one good seaon and it wasn't like it was godly season or something.

Troy Polamalu is overrated but I expected him in that spot.

niel89
06-24-2012, 02:51 PM
I'd swap Berry and Weddle, & Winston and Godson.

I simultaneously think that Troy is overrated, but I have to recognize the huge amount of game changing plays he makes.

Berry is getting overrated at an alarming rate. I like the guy and he had a good rookie year, but it wasn't some crazy ground breaking elite year. And then he tore his acl and miss the next year. The guy will be a good player but to put him in the elite tier already is a mistake.

tjsunstein
06-24-2012, 02:56 PM
I had the same ten in a different order.

Had Berry at 5. Goldson was 6th for me and Weddle rounded out the Top 10.

vidae
06-24-2012, 06:23 PM
Earl Thomas over Eric Berry. :(

ATLDirtyBirds
06-24-2012, 06:36 PM
Earl Thomas over Eric Berry. :(

I still think Berry ends up better than Thomas (and I think really highly of Thomas), but he just can't be ahead of him now.

BamaFalcon59
06-24-2012, 07:10 PM
Suprised about the love for Kam Chancellor.

descendency
06-24-2012, 08:05 PM
Berry is getting overrated at an alarming rate.

Almost as bad as Golston.

XxXdragonXxX
06-24-2012, 08:24 PM
Suprised about the love for Kam Chancellor.

He's a hard hitting, sure tackling, huge and athletic strong safety...and he's good in pass coverage...Why are you surprised?

Unbiased
06-24-2012, 08:40 PM
I want to see Troy Polamalu, Pittsburgh Steelers on the top of list because both are really very great players.

Look at this newbie...

VAfy-ya
06-24-2012, 11:12 PM
Almost as bad as Golston.

That's twice now you've mentioned your distained for Goldson. What excatly is it that you don't like about his play?

phlysac
06-24-2012, 11:37 PM
That's twice now you've mentioned your distained for Goldson. What excatly is it that you don't like about his play?

Here's video of his overrated play...

YtVz7HjyY2g

vidae
06-24-2012, 11:39 PM
Here's video of his overrated play...

YtVz7HjyY2g

Woah, a highlight video?! What a great way to defend your point! It isn't like they're designed to show only good plays either, so you are REALLY hammering the point home! Kudos!

phlysac
06-24-2012, 11:44 PM
Woah, a highlight video?! What a great way to defend your point! It isn't like they're designed to show only good plays either, so you are REALLY hammering the point home! Kudos!

It proves more, because there was actual content, than what you or descendency had to say about him being overrated.

It's not as if analysis has been utilized for any other players throughout this thread.

So kudos to you, as well.

XxXdragonXxX
06-24-2012, 11:49 PM
That highlight video was funny. They showed the same 3 plays about 10 times each, then showed some average plays, then went back to the 3 highlights. The hit on Mike Williams was shown from 5 angles 3 seperate times.

Not saying Goldson isn't good, but posting that video as an argument is a joke.

Ness
06-24-2012, 11:57 PM
Highlight videos aren't needed. If anyone paid attention to Goldson's play last season, it spoke for itself. He was a ballhawk for the most part and usually tackled pretty well. Sometimes he takes some bad angles on his tackles, but usually he makes the play. I don't recall him blowing many assignments either. He's not a great safety, but he's a pretty good one and his play last year resulted in a lot of game changing moments in favor for the 49ers.

I don't see how he's overrated as a lot of people don't even know who he is.

Complex
06-25-2012, 12:08 AM
He's a hard hitting, sure tackling, huge and athletic strong safety...and he's good in pass coverage...Why are you surprised?

Doesn't play for the chiefs duh

vidae
06-25-2012, 12:47 AM
It proves more, because there was actual content, than what you or descendency had to say about him being overrated.

It's not as if analysis has been utilized for any other players throughout this thread.

So kudos to you, as well.

I never said he was overrated, I just thought posting a highlight video as a means to argue your point was just awful.

phlysac
06-25-2012, 07:28 AM
I never said he was overrated, I just thought posting a highlight video as a means to argue your point was just awful.

If I'd made a point, I'd agree. I just posted a video because it seems as if some have, perhaps not watched him play. I didn't argue one way or the other.

I will now, however.

It is pretty darn difficult for a player to be "overrated" when, in most cases, the players isn't rated.

VAfy-ya
06-25-2012, 08:15 AM
Highlight videos aren't needed. If anyone paid attention to Goldson's play last season, it spoke for itself. He was a ballhawk for the most part and usually tackled pretty well. Sometimes he takes some bad angles on his tackles, but usually he makes the play. I don't recall him blowing many assignments either. He's not a great safety, but he's a pretty good one and his play last year resulted in a lot of game changing moments in favor for the 49ers.

I don't see how he's overrated as a lot of people don't even know who he is.

Only two plays I can remember all year he crapped the bed. One was the against the Browns on Cribbs TD catch when he got caught out of position and stopped to watch Brown try and tackle Cribbs instead of hustling to the ball. The other was the Cards game in AZ where he made the right read, just misjudged the ball, which lead to a Fitz TD. Other than those and a mis-tackle or two on Sproles in the Saints game, he had a solid year. FO did rank him as one of the worst safeties in terms of their over-manipulated criteria. Like I give a **** what they think.

Ness
06-25-2012, 01:21 PM
There was an article I read on Pro Football Focus regarding Goldson and his desire for a big contract that extensively went into detail regarding his year in 2011. They had him ranked as their 69th best safety in the NFL.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/03/02/playing-tag-dashon-goldson/

K Train
06-25-2012, 01:25 PM
ive been very critical of polamalu, hes a head of hair some years that makes the pro bowl based on that....but it seems he puts together a brilliant season every other year.

I dont expect him to hold up much longer being he is small and plays like a torpedo, but hes clearly one of the top 3 S in the NFL on one of his bad days. He is a game changer, but he does whiff a lot being that he doesnt ever form tackle. gotta take the bad with the good i suppose

gpngc
06-25-2012, 01:28 PM
He whiffs a lot more than people realize. I still don't know what he was doing on that A.J. Green TD last year...

ET and Bam Bam are both better.

bigbluedefense
06-25-2012, 01:30 PM
1. Ed Reed, Baltimore Ravens (194)
2. Troy Polamalu, Pittsburgh Steelers (157)
3. Earl Thomas, Seattle Seahawks (144)
4. Eric Berry, Kansas City Chiefs (121)
5. Eric Weddle, San Diego Chargers (118)
6. Adrian Wilson, Arizona Cardinals (109)
7. Kam Chancellor, Seattle Seahawks (71)
8. Jairus Byrd, Buffalo Bills (68)
9. Dashon Goldson, San Francisco 49ers (36)
10. Tyvon Branch, Oakland Raiders (28)


*Vote Total in Parentheses

I'm a little surprised by this list.

I didn't vote, which is my own fault for not logging in, but to me Earl Thomas is the best FS in football, and it's not close right now. Reed and Troy are living off of their reputations right now.

Ed is still great, and top 5 to me, bc his instincts are rare, but Troy really is a shell of himself, and Reed just isn't capable of being as physical as he used to be bc of that neck.

Thomas has the best range out of any FS in the league, he's got great instincts, great playmaking ability, and he just takes away the deep ball all by himself. Good enough in the run game.

Berry is a little overrated. Yes, I think he will be great, but he's not that good yet. He had a solid rookie year and missed all of this season. How is he rated so damn high? We have more questions than answers about Eric Berry.

Eric Weddle is way too high. He's a guy that's good at everything, great at nothing.

And there's no way Byrd and Branch are both better than Kenny and Rolle. Kenny is probably the 2nd best deep FS in the league behind Thomas as far as range is concerned. He lacks great box skills, but in the post, the only FS in the game who's better is Earl Thomas right here right now. Rolle is great in the box and his versatility covering TEs, slot WRs, blitzing and tackling makes him better than Byrd and Branch.

I'm not a huge fan of this list.

Jughead10
06-25-2012, 01:44 PM
I disagree, Ed Reed is not very good anymore. He get's the INTs but he better to make up basically for every other aspect of his play. No better than the NFL networks list so far.

bigbluedefense
06-25-2012, 01:49 PM
He's still great in the post. That's all Ed Reed is really good for anymore though. He's actually still a good blitzer too when they blitz him, but they don't do it often.

But he can't tackle anymore.

Jughead10
06-25-2012, 01:52 PM
He's still great in the post. That's all Ed Reed is really good for anymore though. He's actually still a good blitzer too when they blitz him, but they don't do it often.

But he can't tackle anymore.

He doesn't blitz at all anymore. He used to be a great blitzer. He used to be great at a lot of things, that's the point. Best all time safety still playing? Of course. But not for just this upcoming year. People seem to get that about Ray Lewis, but somehow not about Reed.

bigbluedefense
06-25-2012, 01:53 PM
He doesn't blitz at all anymore. He used to be a great blitzer. He used to be great at a lot of things, that's the point. Best all time safety still playing? Of course. But not for just this upcoming year. People seem to get that about Ray Lewis, but somehow not about Reed.

He's still a top 5 guy though. Just for his ability to play deep. There aren't many great safeties in the league.

Jughead10
06-25-2012, 01:59 PM
He's still a top 5 guy though. Just for his ability to play deep. There aren't many great safeties in the league.

I still don't agree with that. For this upcoming year I'd rather have Ray Lewis on my team than Reed.

TACKLE
06-25-2012, 02:01 PM
I disagree, Ed Reed is not very good anymore. He get's the INTs but he better to make up basically for every other aspect of his play. No better than the NFL networks list so far.

Well that simply isn't true. His tackling has gone downhill since his neck injuries but he's still very much elite in coverage. Don't really see how that's disputable. He's just not capable at being as physical but he hasn't really lost a step athletically. I guess some people didn't seem to notice that in AFCCG, Aaron Hernandez (the most athletic TE in the NFL) was picking the Ravens apart for first down after first down in the first half. Second half, Ravens made an adjustment and manned Reed up on Hernandez a lot. He erased him in that half and made Hernandez a non factor.

Jughead10
06-25-2012, 02:04 PM
Well that simply isn't true. His tackling has gone downhill since his neck injuries but he's still very much elite in coverage. Don't really see how that's disputable. He's just not capable at being as physical but he hasn't really lost a step athletically. I guess some people didn't seem to notice that in AFCCG, Aaron Hernandez (the most athletic TE in the NFL) was picking the Ravens apart for first down after first down in the first half. Second half, Ravens made an adjustment and manned Reed up on Hernandez a lot. He erased him in that half and made Hernandez a non factor.

Well first of all there basically is no tackling anymore. Everyone in the world knows where he is going to lineup and how he is going to be used on nearly every down. The AFCCG was one of those turn back the clock games for him. I agree with you that he was excellent. By far his best game of the year. But he can't give that to you every week anymore. Not even that close.

VAfy-ya
06-25-2012, 02:07 PM
There was an article I read on Pro Football Focus regarding Goldson and his desire for a big contract that extensively went into detail regarding his year in 2011. They had him ranked as their 69th best safety in the NFL.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/03/02/playing-tag-dashon-goldson/

Yea, that's the one Im referring to. I always get them and Football Outsiders confused.

vidae
06-25-2012, 02:08 PM
You will all see how great Uric Burry is this year! Keep ******** on him! HE WILL DESTROY YOUR SOULS!

Complex
06-25-2012, 02:13 PM
When did Aaron Hernandez become the most athletic TE?

Ness
06-25-2012, 02:18 PM
When did Aaron Hernandez become the most athletic TE?

I don't know. I thought Vernon Davis might take the cake.


"Oh he's a niner fan urrrr...." :njx:

VAfy-ya
06-25-2012, 02:22 PM
He whiffs a lot more than people realize. I still don't know what he was doing on that A.J. Green TD last year...

ET and Bam Bam are both better.

I don't think Kam is there yet. Thomas no question. But the way PC uses Kam so close to the LOS in their base set, he's liked a extra MIKE most times and that's where he makes alot of his plays....within that 10 yard box. Im not sold on his deep-half abilities just yet.

redbills
06-25-2012, 02:24 PM
Thought Byrd would crack the top 5 with his way improved run support. At least he made it.

TACKLE
06-25-2012, 02:25 PM
I don't know. I thought Vernon Davis might take the cake.


"Oh he's a niner fan urrrr...." :njx:

If Vernon was anywhere near as fluid as Hernandez, he would have been the best TE in the NFL the past 3-4 years.

Complex
06-25-2012, 02:27 PM
If Vernon was anywhere near as fluid as Hernandez, he would have been the best TE in the NFL the past 3-4 years.

Or if he had Tom Brady.

bigbluedefense
06-25-2012, 02:27 PM
Jimmy Graham is the most athletic TE in the league.

Complex
06-25-2012, 02:28 PM
The most athletic TE is Jared Cook BTW

gpngc
06-25-2012, 02:31 PM
I don't think Kam is there yet. Thomas no question. But the way PC uses Kam so close to the LOS in their base set, he's liked a extra MIKE most times and that's where he makes alot of his plays....within that 10 yard box. Im not sold on his deep-half abilities just yet.

Press man all day with ET roaming outerspace like a true G and Sherman getting in grills like a BAU5.

Jughead10
06-25-2012, 02:31 PM
Or if he had Tom Brady.

Or ever cared. Vernon's problems were always between his ears.

VAfy-ya
06-25-2012, 02:36 PM
If Vernon was anywhere near as fluid as Hernandez, he would have been the best TE in the NFL the past 3-4 years.

I get what your saying, but in the offenses he played in, it still would not have mattered because stats rule the day. And he would have never did what Gronk or Granham did this year in the offenses he played in. VD is the most athletic TE in the game though. Maybe not as fluid with his short-area quickness, but his triangle numbers are head and shoulders above everyone else's. If he didnt have such heavy feet and was a natural pass-catcher it would be illegal to put him on the football field because with his blocking, he would be the closest thing to dominat at the position.

Ness
06-25-2012, 02:36 PM
If Vernon was anywhere near as fluid as Hernandez, he would have been the best TE in the NFL the past 3-4 years.

Sorry I have a hard time believing Hernandez would have flourished the last three or four years on the 49ers. I'd like to see Vernon Davis the last four years on the Patriots.

bigbluedefense
06-25-2012, 02:38 PM
Vernon Davis would be awful in New England. They run a choice route offense, Vernon Davis is too stupid to thrive in that system.

VAfy-ya
06-25-2012, 02:39 PM
Or ever cared. Vernon's problems were always between his ears.

Care to eblaborate?

gpngc
06-25-2012, 02:41 PM
Care to eblaborate?

Vernon Davis cries a lot. Nothing more needs to be said. He cried at the draft, he cried in the playoffs. He's a CRYBABY.

VAfy-ya
06-25-2012, 02:48 PM
Where did this whole 'Vernon Davis is stupid' rhetoric come from? He played for Mike Martz, who alos runs a read-option system and there were never any problems with him not knowing the system. Martz couldn't use a TE to save his life so VD was used as a extra blocker or a decoy with his go routes most of the time but Martz never complained about him not grasping the system or its concepts. With all the different OC's he's played for, if VD were stupid we'd know by now. Never heard one OC call him out for not learning the playbook. Running a wrong route here or there, sure....but I contribute that to lack of concentration and focus at times, not smarts.

TACKLE
06-25-2012, 02:50 PM
Well first of all there basically is no tackling anymore. Everyone in the world knows where he is going to lineup and how he is going to be used on nearly every down.

Meh his tackling is weak but I still trust him as the last line of defense. It isn't pretty but he gets the job done on most occasions. I guess he was moved around less this year (though let's not pretend he was Taylor Mays at USC and played 25 yards deep every snap of every game) but that was just as much a function of Bernard Pollard because Pollard as we know is a pure box SS (and he was actually very good for us in that role) but he doesn't give us the flexibility at safety we once had.

Something I've noticed around here and among "football heads" in general there is a tendency to underrate and undervalue high profile, older players. I think in a way whether people are doing it knowingly or not, because of things like the Top 100, Pro Bowl voting, Madden rankings, media hype, some "football heads" have a tendency to want to devalue those players too much in order to compensate. Just a thought that I think holds relevance with these top 10 lists.

bigbluedefense
06-25-2012, 02:50 PM
Where did this whole 'Vernon Davis is stupid' rhetoric come from? He played for Mike Martz, who alos runs a read-option system and there were never any problems with him not knowing the system. Martz couldn't use a TE to save his life so VD was used as a extra blocker or a decoy with his go routes most of the time but Martz never complained about him not grasping the system or its concepts.

There's a big difference btw that and what NE runs.

Complex
06-25-2012, 02:55 PM
Vernon Davis would be awful in New England. They run a choice route offense, Vernon Davis is too stupid to thrive in that system.

Yeah and Gronk is genius.

TACKLE
06-25-2012, 02:57 PM
Sorry I have a hard time believing Hernandez would have flourished the last three or four years on the 49ers. I'd like to see Vernon Davis the last four years on the Patriots.

I didn't say Hernandez was better. I said more athletic because he's more fluid. I'm not factoring in size or combine numbers from 6 years ago, just which TE looks the most athletic and dynamic on the field.

But thank you for making yet another thread all about the 49ers. It is definitely not getting old at all in the slightest because you Niner fans rarely do that ever.

Jughead10
06-25-2012, 02:58 PM
Care to eblaborate?

I'm not saying he's dumb. He's just a head case. He hasn't been known as a guy to always give a 100% effort. For every great thing he does, he's seemed to follow it with something stupid. Well I guess in that way he is dumb, but it's not a grasping the offense situation.

ATLDirtyBirds
06-25-2012, 03:09 PM
I'm a little surprised by this list.

I didn't vote, which is my own fault for not logging in, but to me Earl Thomas is the best FS in football, and it's not close right now. Reed and Troy are living off of their reputations right now.

Ed is still great, and top 5 to me, bc his instincts are rare, but Troy really is a shell of himself, and Reed just isn't capable of being as physical as he used to be bc of that neck.

Thomas has the best range out of any FS in the league, he's got great instincts, great playmaking ability, and he just takes away the deep ball all by himself. Good enough in the run game.

Berry is a little overrated. Yes, I think he will be great, but he's not that good yet. He had a solid rookie year and missed all of this season. How is he rated so damn high? We have more questions than answers about Eric Berry.

Eric Weddle is way too high. He's a guy that's good at everything, great at nothing.

And there's no way Byrd and Branch are both better than Kenny and Rolle. Kenny is probably the 2nd best deep FS in the league behind Thomas as far as range is concerned. He lacks great box skills, but in the post, the only FS in the game who's better is Earl Thomas right here right now. Rolle is great in the box and his versatility covering TEs, slot WRs, blitzing and tackling makes him better than Byrd and Branch.

I'm not a huge fan of this list.



I agree with you on Earl at this point. I still think Reed's #2 though. And I'll give you Byrd, but the Giants duo isn't better than Branch.

VAfy-ya
06-25-2012, 03:10 PM
I'm not saying he's dumb. He's just a head case. He hasn't been known as a guy to always give a 100% effort. For every great thing he does, he's seemed to follow it with something stupid. Well I guess in that way he is dumb, but it's not a grasping the offense situation.

No one, and I mean NO ONE outworks VD. He's worked tireless on his hands over the years to where they are no longer a issue. He's streamlined his body to become a better pass-catcher. And no one had to motivate him to do it, he did it on his own. There are dozens of articles from Niner beat-writers documenting VD's tireless work ethic and how driven he is to be the best. Don't know how you came to that conclusion but it just isnt true. Maybe because he says outlandish things at times and he isn't afraid to speak his mind. He does say some wild things at times. But he works his ass off(and plays his ass off) so I feel he can say whatever the hell he wants.

bigbluedefense
06-25-2012, 03:11 PM
How did this become a thread about TEs?

ATLDirtyBirds
06-25-2012, 03:12 PM
Greg Cosell hates Alex Smith.

WCH
06-25-2012, 03:26 PM
I was curious to see what everyone thought of Collins on this board for a while but that time has passed.

I would have had him at #2 or 3 (after Reed, ahead of Polamalu, with Thomas gaining pretty rapidly). Collins didn't get as much hype as Woodson and Clay, but you can make a case that he was the best player on the Packers defense.

Regarding Davis, there's just something about him that's missing. Maybe it's the fluidity, like somebody else said. On paper, there's absolutely no way that he shouldn't be straight up dominating the NFL. I don't question his work ethic, his blocking is great, his hands are good, his triangle numbers are farking amazing...

I'm looking forward to the TE thread.

TACKLE
06-25-2012, 03:28 PM
Greg Cosell hates Alex Smith.

Shame on him for having functioning eyesight and a basic understanding of the game of football!

ATLDirtyBirds
06-25-2012, 03:36 PM
Shame on him for having functioning eyesight and a basic understanding of the game of football!

More like a personal vendetta.

WCH
06-25-2012, 03:38 PM
4fJSxbVSKLw

A Perfect Score
06-25-2012, 03:55 PM
I agree with you on Earl at this point. I still think Reed's #2 though. And I'll give you Byrd, but the Giants duo isn't better than Branch.

Tyvon Branch is a damn fine football player. Was it last year or the year before that he was voted by the players as the most underrated player in the league? I seem to remember that being sooner rather than later.

phlysac
06-25-2012, 04:36 PM
But thank you for making yet another thread all about the 49ers. It is definitely not getting old at all in the slightest because you Niner fans rarely do that ever.

This is why Ness argues in nearly every thread...

I'm not saying he's dumb. He's just a head case. He hasn't been known as a guy to always give a 100% effort. For every great thing he does, he's seemed to follow it with something stupid. Well I guess in that way he is dumb, but it's not a grasping the offense situation.
Shame on him for having functioning eyesight and a basic understanding of the game of football!

People just say outright lies and fantastical generalizations in blind criticism of many 49ers players. Good for him for defending his team.

Jughead10
06-25-2012, 04:44 PM
Should I get a youtube video of Singletary's speech? Should I get clips of Harbaugh having to treat Davis like a child on the sideline when he gets a dumb penalty? I can think right away of the one where he scored a TD and jumped on the camera stage. He just doesn't think on the field sometimes. Maybe when I said "or ever cared" was a bit harsh but the guy is a head case.

Ness
06-25-2012, 04:47 PM
Vernon Davis would be awful in New England. They run a choice route offense, Vernon Davis is too stupid to thrive in that system.

Right because you know Davis oh so well. This is quite a new low for you BBD. Your posts usually have a decent amount of insight to them.

Ness
06-25-2012, 04:51 PM
Should I get a youtube video of Singletary's speech? Should I get clips of Harbaugh having to treat Davis like a child on the sideline when he gets a dumb penalty? I can think right away of the one where he scored a TD and jumped on the camera stage. He just doesn't think on the field sometimes. Maybe when I said "or ever cared" was a bit harsh but the guy is a head case.

Yes please show us where Harbaugh scolded Davis after a penalty. As for the TD celebration Harbaugh was mad at the officials for making that call against Vernon (which he had a good point). He was never mad at Vernon though.

Jughead10
06-25-2012, 04:53 PM
Yes please show us where Harbaugh scolded Davis after a penalty. As for the TD celebration Harbaugh was mad at the officials for making that call against Vernon (which he had a good point). He was never mad at Vernon though.

I'll try to find it. He didn't scold him, like scream at him. Probably because he has to treat him like a child. It was more you could see him being like good job but please don't do the second part again. I know I mentioned it in a post right after it happened. So I'll look for that post to figure out the game.

phlysac
06-25-2012, 04:55 PM
Should I get a youtube video of Singletary's speech? Should I get clips of Harbaugh having to treat Davis like a child on the sideline when he gets a dumb penalty? I can think right away of the one where he scored a TD and jumped on the camera stage. He just doesn't think on the field sometimes. Maybe when I said "or ever cared" was a bit harsh but the guy is a head case.

He had a big problem with focus. It rarely shows itself anymore. The penalty this playoffs was an exception and was pretty ticky tack. Harbaugh actually vehemently argued with the officials after that call. Asking them how it was any different than the Lambeau Leap.

You could get away with saying that Davis is "a head case" and "does dumb things," but you questioned how much he cares and how much effort he gives. His passion, work-ethic, and motor are world-class, so to question them would just be using false pretense to pad your argument.

SuperMcGee
06-25-2012, 04:58 PM
Thought Byrd would crack the top 5 with his way improved run support. At least he made it.

It is what it is. It's not an egregious slight, but him being the guy that people have no problem being unjustifiably dismissive of probably has more to do with where he plays than how he plays. A good number of people still have an outdated perception of what his role is, too.

bigbluedefense
06-25-2012, 05:00 PM
Yes please show us where Harbaugh scolded Davis after a penalty. As for the TD celebration Harbaugh was mad at the officials for making that call against Vernon (which he had a good point). He was never mad at Vernon though.

NFL network showed it many times.

Right because you know Davis oh so well. This is quite a new low for you BBD. Your posts usually have a decent amount of insight to them.

Its ok to criticize your players once in awhile. Vernon Davis isn't this invincible human being. Yes, he's a head case, and he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. Doesn't mean he's not a good football player but I don't see how you can argue against that.

Giantsfan1080
06-25-2012, 05:09 PM
Can't we wait for the TE thread to discuss Davis like this?

WCH
06-25-2012, 05:24 PM
We should probably do the TE thread next week, since people obviously want to talk about it.

VAfy-ya
06-25-2012, 05:29 PM
Its ok to criticize your players once in awhile. Vernon Davis isn't this invincible human being. Yes, he's a head case, and he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. Doesn't mean he's not a good football player but I don't see how you can argue against that.

I wont continue to hi-jack this thread so Im going say this and be done with it. You keep implying VD is dumb. He's emotional and sometimes on a football field he lets his emotions get the best of him(not so much now but in his first few years, a ton). Your equating emotion with mental apptitude which is, well.....dumb.

Ness
06-25-2012, 06:30 PM
Shame on him for having functioning eyesight and a basic understanding of the game of football!

You're right. Cosell is never wrong.

I didn't say Hernandez was better. I said more athletic because he's more fluid. I'm not factoring in size or combine numbers from 6 years ago, just which TE looks the most athletic and dynamic on the field.

But thank you for making yet another thread all about the 49ers. It is definitely not getting old at all in the slightest because you Niner fans rarely do that ever.
Sounds like it was more of an implication. Which is fine. And looking more dynamic on the field in a team oriented sport with a lot of variables isn't solely marked up to an individual, in this case the TE. I'm saying that Davis' production could go up if he were playing in a more pass heavy offense with a better quarterback, and Hernandez might not look as dynamic if he were on say, the Browns. That is aside from my belief that as an athlete, he does a good amount of things well at this position. He's big, strong, hard to cover, and is a great blocker. His vertical isn't as nice, and his hands used to be a big concern, but not much anymore.

All I did was say that I believe Vernon took the cake with being arguably the best athletic tight end in the game. I didn't ask for your response to my initial statement regarding that opinion. So you can stop playing the victim card.

NFL network showed it many times.

Okay I'll just take your word for it? Can you show an article? Something? Anything that implies that Harbaugh has been upset with Davis a good amount of times due to committing penalties. Or even over the TD against the Giants in the NFCCG, where he publicly defending Vernon Davis and that celebration saying it was a terrible call by the officials.

Its ok to criticize your players once in awhile. Vernon Davis isn't this invincible human being. Yes, he's a head case, and he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. Doesn't mean he's not a good football player but I don't see how you can argue against that.

I didn't say it wasn't okay to criticize your own players. Trust me, I've done it plenty times here. You can check the 49ers forum on that. It just happens that a lot of what is being thrown around, doesn't really have any substance to it. Like Vernon Davis being a headcase. Yeah he's so hard to deal with as a teammate and his antics are just intolerable. Definitely a distraction to the franchise.

Really, ever since the incident with Singletary four years ago, Davis hasn't been a problem.

There's a big difference btw that and what NE runs.

Didn't you just say that you watched a game from the 1994 season the other day with the Giants and Cowboys and claimed that a lot of schemes run now and days aren't all the different and when it comes down to it, players just have to execute?

Jughead10
06-25-2012, 07:06 PM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-sound-efx/09000d5d8265c557/Sound-FX-Giants-vs-49ers-1st-half

It's in the first 2 minutes after Vernon got a dumb penalty. Harbaugh had to talk to him like he was a child playing football. And this is what I said about it a few days after, so I felt this way the moment it happended.

"After watching this I have less respect for Vernon Davis. He didn't see to give a flying you know what that he cost his team 30 yards. It's all about him. He hasn't changed at all. Selfish. And Harbaugh for all the demonstrative crap he does on the sideline, did absolutely jack **** about it. Either his bark is bigger than his bite, or he knows he's dealing with a moron but deals with it because the rest of his offense are scrubs. He has to talk to Vernon like he's a child."

Ness
06-25-2012, 07:25 PM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-films-sound-efx/09000d5d8265c557/Sound-FX-Giants-vs-49ers-1st-half

It's in the first 2 minutes after Vernon got a dumb penalty. Harbaugh had to talk to him like he was a child playing football. And this is what I said about it a few days after, so I felt this way the moment it happended.

"After watching this I have less respect for Vernon Davis. He didn't see to give a flying you know what that he cost his team 30 yards. It's all about him. He hasn't changed at all. Selfish. And Harbaugh for all the demonstrative crap he does on the sideline, did absolutely jack **** about it. Either his bark is bigger than his bite, or he knows he's dealing with a moron but deals with it because the rest of his offense are scrubs. He has to talk to Vernon like he's a child."

Really? That is the best you can do? Harbaugh wasn't even that upset about it. But wait, it has to be by the logic you defined right? Because of this one mistake, he is still a selfish person, hasn't grown in his life as a player, and doesn't care about his team. Forget everything else. A 30 yard penalty changes a man. Yes. And Harbaugh has to talk to him like child. It can't possibly be the notion that Harbaugh was serious about that matter in the game, but decided to not be as enthusiastic. I guess Tony Dungy thought all of his players were moronic people by nature when they committed penalties because of the way he talked, which was quite soft spoken. I guess that means he was talking to all of them like they were children.

"See! See!!! I told you he was selfish!!! Look 30 yard penalty yards! That proves it!!!"

Jughead10
06-25-2012, 07:32 PM
Really? That is the best you can do? Harbaugh wasn't even upset about it. But wait, it has to be by the logic you defined right? Because of this one mistake, he is still a selfish person, hasn't grown in his life as a player, and doesn't care about his team. Forget everything else. A 30 yard penalty changes a man. Yes. And Harbaugh has to talk to him like child. It can't possibly be the notion that Harbaugh was serious about that matter in the game, but decided to not be as enthusiastic. I guess Tony Dungy thought all of his players were moronic people by nature when they committed penalties because of the way he talked, which was quite soft spoken.

"See! See!!! I told you he was selfish!!! Look 30 yard penalty! That proves it!!!"

That was my point. Harbaugh didn't seem upset, which is very against his personality. It seemed like he was treating Vernon with kid gloves, because he could lose him. And don't compare that to Dungy who I don't think has ever raised his voice in his entire life. In the biggest game of his career Vernon Davis made two dumb penalties and it didn't see to bother him at all. No "Sorry coach, won't happen again". Even his own teammate later had to bring it up, again speaking to him like a child. It just seems to me he is fragile. Like they can't piss him off and call him on his BS because they are afraid they will completely lose him like Singletary did.

Ness
06-25-2012, 07:39 PM
That was my point. Harbaugh didn't seem upset, which is very against his personality. It seemed like he was treating Vernon with kid gloves, because he could lose him. And don't compare that to Dungy who I don't think has ever raised his voice in his entire life. In the biggest game of his career Vernon Davis made two dumb penalties and it didn't see to bother him at all. No "Sorry coach, won't happen again". Even his own teammate later had to bring it up, again speaking to him like a child. It just seems to me he is fragile. Like they can't piss him off and call him on his BS because they are afraid they will completely lose him like Singletary did.

LOL how would you know Harbaugh's personality? You took a conversation out of context during the flow of the game and posted it as evidence to try and prove that Vernon Davis hasn't matured as a player and is a selfish indvidual.

I don't recall see Harbaugh giving hell to his players on the sideline on a routine basis. He isn't Singletary. Why can't I compare that to Dungy? He does raise his voice. At the officials. George Seifert was the same way with his players years back. Yeah I'm sure the 49ers are so afraid to lose Vernon Davis, that they are going to treat him as if he has a fragile psyche or is a headcase a la Terrell Owens. Yeah that coaching staff has no balls at all.

WCH
06-25-2012, 07:41 PM
Those end zone celebration rules don't even have any logical consistency. If a guy celebrates a TD by going down on one knee to pray, it's cool; but if another player goes down on two knees and points at the sky, it's unsportsmanlike conduct. Vernon Davis jumping on the camera platform is an example of using a "prop," but the Packers get a free pass every time they celebrate with a Lambeau Leap. Okey dokey then...

Jughead10
06-25-2012, 07:42 PM
Just one outside perspective. I'm sure I'm not alone on that. I never realized 49ers became the sensitive fans on here.

Ness
06-25-2012, 07:43 PM
Those end zone celebration rules don't even have any logical consistency. If a guy celebrates a TD by going down on one knee to pray, it's cool; but if another player goes down on two knees and points at the sky, it's unsportsmanlike conduct. Vernon Davis jumping on the camera platform is an example of using a "prop," but the Packers get a free pass every time they celebrate with a Lambeau Leap. Okey dokey then...

The Lambeau Leap has been "grandfathered in".

LOL since when, 1992?

Jughead10
06-25-2012, 07:44 PM
Well the other penalty was certainly the more egregious one.

Ness
06-25-2012, 07:47 PM
Just one outside perspective. I'm sure I'm not alone on that. I never realized 49ers became the sensitive fans on here.

You can have your opinion on the matter. Other people having a similar opinion doesn't really boost your stance. Argumentum ad populum isn't a saving grace. I'm just debating your basis for your conclusion. Sensitivity has nothing to do with the issue.

Ness
06-25-2012, 07:52 PM
Well the other penalty was certainly the more egregious one.

Maybe. Doesn't mean Vernon's overall character is diminished because of it. That's like questioning Thurman Thomas and his integrity because he couldn't find his helmet on first play of the Super Bowl for the Bills' offense.

If I recall correctly Vernon was retaliating because Deon Grant shoved Anthony Davis in the face after Anthony Davis and I believe Michael Boley were in a tussle. Vernon shouldn't have done it, but it wasn't like he was deliberately going out of his way to take a cheap shot. He was trying to aid a teammate.

Regardless, that one incident doesn't prove anything and Vernon being a selfish person and/or headcase.

bigbluedefense
06-25-2012, 07:53 PM
Didn't you just say that you watched a game from the 1994 season the other day with the Giants and Cowboys and claimed that a lot of schemes run now and days aren't all the different and when it comes down to it, players just have to execute?

Yes I did. Because the choice route concepts that NE runs have been around forever so the Choice Route offenses of today aren't any different from what we saw in the 80s in terms of depth.

But it's not the same as what SF runs. Schemes have been around forever, but not all schemes are the same. You're comparing a WCO to a Run N Shoot. That's like comparing a 3-4 to a Cover 2.

WCH
06-25-2012, 07:59 PM
The Lambeau Leap has been "grandfathered in".

LOL since when, 1992?

I don't know which year LeRoy Butler originally did it, but it was popularized in '95. I remember the year, because Robert Brooks popularized it the year that he became "the man" after Sterling Sharpe had to retire (and Sterling retired after '94 -- I cried like a baby).

Ness
06-25-2012, 08:03 PM
Yes I did. Because the choice route concepts that NE runs have been around forever so the Choice Route offenses of today aren't any different from what we saw in the 80s in terms of depth.

But it's not the same as what SF runs. Schemes have been around forever, but not all schemes are the same. You're comparing a WCO to a Run N Shoot. That's like comparing a 3-4 to a Cover 2.

Didn't Vafy-ya already say that he played under Martz though which did involve a complex offense. But there was never any mention of Martz or anyone saying Vernon was "too stupid" (or implications) to grasp the concepts. Vernon, like all of Martz's tight ends during the majority of his tenure in NFL coaching, has rarely used tight ends as he focal point of his offense.

Even if you want to say that Mike Martz's offense isn't the same as New England's, it's still complex as past players have attested to. Like Vafy-ya also said, this notion that Vernon Davis doesn't have the intelligence to operate in New England's offense, or any complicated offense for that matter is unfounded. Especially when you don't even know the person. The way you made it sound was as if it was a factual impossibility.

And I was never comparing San Francisco's offense to New England's.

WCH
06-25-2012, 08:09 PM
Yes I did. Because the choice route concepts that NE runs have been around forever so the Choice Route offenses of today aren't any different from what we saw in the 80s in terms of depth.

But it's not the same as what SF runs. Schemes have been around forever, but not all schemes are the same. You're comparing a WCO to a Run N Shoot. That's like comparing a 3-4 to a Cover 2.

What are your opinions on the Packers version of the WCO vs the Run-N-Shoot? I've argued (in sports bars) that the McCarthy/Philbin system is basically a Run-N-Shoot system that uses WCO concepts and terminology, along with a little bit of the old Wishbone (just to spruce things up a bit, and typically using at least one TE as a FB in a "jumbo" package). I also argue that Philbin is the primary architect of the system.

ATLDirtyBirds
06-25-2012, 08:32 PM
Well, this thread went down the shitter.

bigbluedefense
06-25-2012, 08:32 PM
Didn't Vafy-ya already say that he played under Martz though which did involve a complex offense. But there was never any mention of Martz or anyone saying Vernon was "too stupid" (or implications) to grasp the concepts. Vernon, like all of Martz's tight ends during the majority of his tenure in NFL coaching, has rarely used tight ends as he focal point of his offense.

Even if you want to say that Mike Martz's offense isn't the same as New England's, it's still complex as past players have attested to. Like Vafy-ya also said, this notion that Vernon Davis doesn't have the intelligence to operate in New England's offense, or any complicated offense for that matter is unfounded. Especially when you don't even know the person. The way you made it sound was as if it was a factual impossibility.

And I was never comparing San Francisco's offense to New England's.

Let's talk about this in the TE thread.

bigbluedefense
06-25-2012, 08:35 PM
What are your opinions on the Packers version of the WCO vs the Run-N-Shoot? I've argued (in sports bars) that the McCarthy/Philbin system is basically a Run-N-Shoot system that uses WCO concepts and terminology, along with a little bit of the old Wishbone (just to spruce things up a bit, and typically using at least one TE as a FB in a "jumbo" package). I also argue that Philbin is the primary architect of the system.

I haven't really studied the Packers offense in depth, so it's hard for me to comment on it.

I will say this though, most offenses in the league have their inside guys run an option.

But an option route and a choice route in the Run N Shoot are 2 different things. The complexity of the choice varies from offense to offense, down to how the defender is covering you, not just what coverage they're in. And the amount of choices a WR has depends on the individual offense as well. Run N Shoot guys typically have the most complexity in their choices.

It makes sense when you think about it. The slot is so difficult to defend, if you give that guy a choice/option to expose the defense he's practically uncoverable if he's reading it right. He has all that space to operate in, you don't want to restrict him.

WCH
06-25-2012, 08:37 PM
Well, this thread went down the shitter.

What did you expect? This is a S thread. If you're watching a game on TV, you have no idea what they're doing 90% of the time.

This is why all-22 footage rocks my socks.

TACKLE
06-25-2012, 08:38 PM
Well, this thread went down the shitter.

I believe the correct term is 'Spam Franned'.

Giantsfan1080
06-25-2012, 08:38 PM
I sure didn't expect it to turn into a Vernon Davis thread.

ATLDirtyBirds
06-25-2012, 08:38 PM
I sure as hell didn't expect we'd dive into a pointless discussion/argument about Vernon Davis' IQ. I figured it'd be about the competency of Alex Smith.

Ness
06-25-2012, 08:54 PM
All it takes to get back on track is to start talking about the premise of the thread again. It's not that complicated.

Tyvon Branch. Good thing the Raiders tagged him. He would have been a good acquisition for some teams via free agency. Apparently his coverage skills still need a good amount of work from what I've researched, but he's done pretty well with tight ends including shutting down Rob Gronkowski, Antonio Gates, and Owen Daniels.

WCH
06-25-2012, 08:59 PM
Speaking of coaches film, I think that it's going to show that Charlie Peprah is a far more competent safety than people give him credit for. I certainly wouldn't put him in the top-ten, but I do think he's criminally underrated. He seems to be good and solid in every aspect of the position.

ATLDirtyBirds
06-25-2012, 09:05 PM
Another safety I find to be criminally underrated: Dwight Lowery.

bigbluedefense
06-25-2012, 09:37 PM
I like the SS from Cleveland too. Forgetting his name at the moment.

K Train
06-25-2012, 09:56 PM
tj ward

i think morgan burnett could be a player to watch improve as well

Rosebud
06-26-2012, 12:12 AM
Still pretty surprised neither of our safeties made the list since they've been playing at a very high level for some time now, Kenny being one of the league's best deep safeties, a task only Earl Thomas, and arguably Ed Reed, is/are better at it right now.

On the otherhand we have Rolle, who's versatility is exactly where the position is heading. As teams throw to their TEs and slot receivers more and more, having your "in the box" safety able to man up on all those different types of inside receivers will also become progressively more crucial. Then you add that he's a really good blitzer and tackler, so it's not like you're sacrificing in the box ability for those cover skills. Dre Kirkpatrick is going to really excel in a similar role with the Bengals once Zimmer gives him a shot at playing corner.

All this while Adrian Wilson and Troy Polamalu land in the top 5. Troy, I at least get, theoretically, if teams move away from the spread, and he gets a dominant front 7 again, he could be a beast again. I tend to think neither of those things is all that likely and Troy will get more and more exposed, especially as his body lets him down more and he becomes even more limited.

But Arian Wilson? We are in the year 2012 right? The hell?

WCH
06-26-2012, 12:25 AM
tj ward

i think morgan burnett could be a player to watch improve as well

Speaking as a Packer fan, Burnett reminds me a lot of Darren Sharper in his first few years. That is to say, he basically sucks right now; but he has the range, instincts, and big-play ability to be one of the best in the NFL.

There were games where I thought that Sharper would never get it together, but he did.

NotMyJob
06-26-2012, 12:39 AM
Another safety I find to be criminally underrated: Dwight Lowery.

agreed, i almost put him on my top 10. been a fan of his since his SJSU days.

TACKLE
06-26-2012, 03:26 AM
Kenny Phillips still doesn't get nearly enough love.

Giantsfan1080
06-26-2012, 07:50 AM
I didn't vote to keep some integrity in making the lists but I would have put Phillips probably 8th or 9th. Great quote from our DB coach.

Safety coach Dave Merritt thinks of Kenny Phillips as ideal player for a three-safety set. Then told me a story: "(Jason) Witten told me when I went to the Pro Bowl two years ago when Antrel invited me, Witten said, when 21's in the post, we don't ever try to throw anything deep because we know he can go and get it. He said but if I see anybody else back there, Romo knows, we're going deep. That was comforting for me to hear."

K Train
06-26-2012, 08:40 AM
i think id prefer malcolm jenkins, antrel rolle, and kenny phillips over goldson, byrd, wilson, and weddle personally

bigbluedefense
06-26-2012, 08:42 AM
I also think Malcolm Jenkins should be on this list. He's been a stud.

K Train
06-26-2012, 08:43 AM
Speaking as a Packer fan, Burnett reminds me a lot of Darren Sharper in his first few years. That is to say, he basically sucks right now; but he has the range, instincts, and big-play ability to be one of the best in the NFL.

There were games where I thought that Sharper would never get it together, but he did.

thats interesting, i didnt see much of him last season but he didnt really have much help back there did he? he looked super promising his rookie year before he got hurt.

But like i said hes more of a player to watch, i think hes got definite potential to be a good one...i think since he made a full recovery by now he will benefit from a full camp

NY+Giants=NYG
06-26-2012, 08:51 AM
What did you expect? This is a S thread. If you're watching a game on TV, you have no idea what they're doing 90% of the time.

This is why all-22 footage rocks my socks.

I think it has the potential to helping. Or it can mean more idiots coming out of the wood work claiming they know what's going on, when in reality they don't know the individual player's responsibility or what passing concepts are being ran. So it could go either way.