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V.I.P
08-10-2012, 12:36 PM
Keep us updated on how your draft picks are looking in training camp, preseason, regular season, etc..

What's the word on Vontaze Burfict?

San Diego Chicken
08-10-2012, 12:48 PM
Both Ingram and Reyes were very impressive last night.

K Train
08-10-2012, 12:56 PM
Adams looked rough, but the whole oline looked confused and not on the same page.

Decastro looked confused, after multiple reports that he said he had the mental part down and was struggling physically it looked like the opposite yesterday.

Chris rainey looks too legit. Could be used in a sproles role, not like the way every tiny back is sproles just like every white WR is welker, but he looks seriously dangerous with the ball and was lining up all over. Really excited for him in haleys offense. Rainey>>>>>>>>>>MCcluster

Ryan Lee was our best backup olineman

Taamu isnt ready yet, but mcclendon and woods played well at NT

Maybe This Year Mayhew
08-10-2012, 01:25 PM
Bill Bentley looks good in training camp and has made the easy leapfrog over Jacob Lacey and Alphonso Smith to start. But I've heard that before(cough Jonathan Wade, Stanley Wilson, Keith Smith), so I'll believe good CB play when I see it opposite Chris Houston.

Ryan Broyles has practiced surprisingly some but still has "sore" knee issues. Future slot WR all the way.

Reiff has looked good(mental and physical) but will be a backup tackle it seems unless Gosder starts sucking with mental mistakes. Reiff worked at both left and right tackle 2nd team(no guard at all) and most recent 2nd team LT over Corey Hilliard and oft injured Jason Fox. First game tonight.

Coaching staff raving about Tahir Whitehead and Travis Lewis. With Levy and Durant free agents next year, I bet only one will be back.

Chris Greenwood on PUP with abdominal tear all camp.

Jonte Green shown flashes but inconsistent. Alphonso Smith 2.0 perhaps.

Ronnel Lewis switched to DE and will be huge in special teams as the Hammer. Lewis doing ok buried at DE but Lions did use a 3 DL package(Suh,CW,Fairley) with Lewis rushing standing up in practice. He'll get a chance to shine with Avril not ready due to hold out and Lo Jack and KVB banged up.

armageddon
08-10-2012, 01:26 PM
DT Brockers - can't be blocked by one person. Massive man. Athletic and strong
WR Quick- Looks good. Big, fast and very athletic.
CB Jenoris Jenkins - looks like a future bowler
RB Pead- very impressive. Steven Jackson says the kid is really good. Sproles type
CB Trumaine Johnson - looks good so far. Big CB with good skills
WR Givens - very fast, good hands, runs good routes. Little timid catching balls in the middle of the field, but great speed on the outside. DJax clone
OG Watkins - road grader

Rams draft looks very impressive. Could be a franchise changer along with 2 more #1's from Washington the next 2 years.

georgiafan
08-10-2012, 01:29 PM
Falcons FB Ewing is likely out for the season he was expected to start after cutting Ovie

DoughBoy
08-10-2012, 01:32 PM
Kendall Wright- next Steve Smith
Zach Brown- next Derrick Brooks
Mike Martin- John Randall clone
Taylor Thompson- a rich mans Rob Gronkowski
Coty Sensabaugh- Champ Bailey? probably more of a Darrell Revis.

Pat Sims 90
08-10-2012, 01:43 PM
What's the word on Vontaze Burfict?

Burfict has been very impressive in training camp and will more then likely end up making the 53 man roster.

TitanHope
08-10-2012, 01:50 PM
Chris rainey looks too legit. Could be used in a sproles role, not like the way every tiny back is sproles just like every white WR is welker, but he looks seriously dangerous with the ball and was lining up all over. Really excited for him in haleys offense. Rainey>>>>>>>>>>MCcluster

I've always adored Rainey since forever. The way he moved reminded me of a lot of CJ. So smooth and little wasted motion. I thought he would do big things in a WCO like the Eagles (but it seems like Bryce Brown is doing it instead, which isn't too surprising given how good he was at catching the ball). I'm not sure what Haley runs, but hopefully he's smart enough to know what he has and how to utilize it.

Don Vito
08-10-2012, 01:54 PM
I have always been a Rainey fan as well, we will see how he pans out. It is still early and remember McCluster, like a lot of small RB/WR types, has been a preseason hero before too. I think this may be his year, I'm hoping it is, but my point is the little guys usually have a little more success in preseason. Sproles is obviously an exception.

Cigaro
08-10-2012, 01:56 PM
Kuechly beasting in camp, best defensive player on the field. He appears like he will be an absolute monster in coverage.

Silatolu came into camp a little raw like one would expect, but has developed very quickly, now getting a lot of praise from the coaches. Will start from day one.

Joe Adams will likely keep a spot on the roster as a special teams guy, could be the designated return man this season.

Josh Norman has been banged up in camp, but expected to compete with Munnerlyn for the #2 corner spot.

armageddon
08-10-2012, 02:21 PM
Love the idea of comparing rookies to NFL players

Brockers = Seymour
Quick = more athletic and faster Brandon Marshall
Jenkins = prime time Dion
Pead = Shady McCoy or Sproles
Givens = DeSean Jackson

vidae
08-10-2012, 02:34 PM
Kendall Wright- next Steve Smith
Zach Brown- next Derrick Brooks
Mike Martin- John Randall clone
Taylor Thompson- a rich mans Rob Gronkowski
Coty Sensabaugh- Champ Bailey? probably more of a Darrell Revis.

What a sick Titans draft class!

VernonLawson89
08-10-2012, 04:33 PM
Excited to see LaMichael James tonight

Bixby (Thumper)
08-10-2012, 04:50 PM
Are we doing this?

Fletcher Cox = Richard Seymour
Mychal Kendricks = Jon Beason
Vinny Curry = Cliff Avril
Nick Foles = Ben Roethlisberger
Brandon Boykin = Antoine Winfield
Bryce Brown = Herschel Walker

Don Vito
08-10-2012, 04:57 PM
Nate Ebner=
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/12800000/Mel-Gibson-William-Wallace-mel-gibson-12873693-339-425.jpg

VernonLawson89
08-10-2012, 05:32 PM
AJ Jenkins = Jerry Rice

ChiFan24
08-10-2012, 08:09 PM
McClellin looked pretty good. Athleticism and motor were on full display and made a couple plays in the backfield. He did get run straight at on the goal line, but he really shouldn't be in the game on obvious run downs anyway.

Alshon Jeffery had 4 catches on short comeback routes. Owned some scrub corner on Denver named Carter. Didn't really notice Brandon Hardin besides a nice pass break up that he should have picked, but physically the guy looks like he could be a stud.

SuperMcGee
08-10-2012, 08:20 PM
Ron Brooks could have had 3 interceptions yesterday. Did get one. This was against Sexy Rexy, though.

Thecollegedropout
08-10-2012, 10:24 PM
Jets Rookie Evaluation vs CIN:

DE Quenton Coples was exhausted(Played THREE quarters as a starter then again!) but boy he was stuffing the run and then some. Great burst off the line, got some pretty nice moves shedding off the O-Lineman and got himself a sack/strip and had he not been so exhausted, mighta got that fumble to boot. Still has to work on the conditioning but man he looked good.

WR Stephen Hill had a nice little catch to start it off with Tebow but then had a big drop too that would have converted a 1st down. Raw is the word with him. Nothing wowing but he's a work in progress.

LB Demario Davis didn't stand out a whole lot unless I was missing something. Ganaway had few rushes but nothing exciting.....Allen/Bush our rookie safety tandem didn't have any god awful plays which means they were fine.

Bengals rookies:

Did Kirkpatrick play? I don't think so I mean but I didn't even hear his name.

Don't know how Zeitler did on defense but he made a heck of a catch straight off of a Gradkowski fumble. That had to be his highlight of the night.

Devin Still.............stood rather still. Nothing eyepopping from him but he did lead a stout run D against our backup RBs.

Sad to not see Sanu out there. Guessing he was hurt?

B. Thompson and Charles each had 1 play respectively. Thompson with a run stuff and Charles with a late game catch.

Burfict had a sick INT off of Tebow though Tebow terribly choreographed that and had he thrown it higher, it would have made the completion. Not taking anything away from Vontaze, just that INT was on Tebow big time. Bad, bad throw.

WR Marvin Jones had a big play(56 yds I think?) but benefited off of Isiah Trufant slipping. Trufant had a bad day for the Jets no doubt about it.

devinhester=R.O.Y 2006
08-10-2012, 10:49 PM
McClellin looked pretty good. Athleticism and motor were on full display and made a couple plays in the backfield. He did get run straight at on the goal line, but he really shouldn't be in the game on obvious run downs anyway.

Alshon Jeffery had 4 catches on short comeback routes. Owned some scrub corner on Denver named Carter. Didn't really notice Brandon Hardin besides a nice pass break up that he should have picked, but physically the guy looks like he could be a stud.

Heard McClellin's name called all night. Seems like he played well. To be fair he was destroyed by a double team on that goalline play for a TD.

devinhester=R.O.Y 2006
08-10-2012, 10:50 PM
Matt Blanchard got some solid PT in the 4th quarter for the Bears. I actually wouldnt mind seeing him make the Bears roster over Josh McCown.

WCH
08-10-2012, 10:52 PM
My tentative thoughts on a few of the Packers rookies....

Nick Perry: He's stronger than anybody thought he was, and he's athletic. He had a nice coverage sack against the Chargers and he also drew a couple of holds. I read that his bullrush knocked Bulaga flat on his ass earlier in camp. I said before the draft that he had problems using his hands to disengage blockers and he didn't have any good counter-moves. This caused him to "vanish" during games, and people mistook that for him having a hot-and-cold motor. Those problems are still there, but he's showing that he belongs in the NFL. He's a good talent that you can "coach up."

Casey Hayward: He's going to be an outstanding slot corner. Hayward has a great football IQ and solid physical skills to cover the slot. I think that's all he's ever going to be, but that's not a knock. You need a good slot corner.

Andrew Datko: This guy stood out last night because he sucked in pass protection. After I got over that, he also stood out (in a positive way) as a run blocker. I don't see him making the Packers final roster, but he could make the practice squad if he clears waivers. I actually like this guy a lot if he can land on the right team. In some ways, he looks like the prototypical '90's RT. I think that he can be a good player for a team, but it probably won't be the Packers.

Pat Sims 90
08-10-2012, 10:53 PM
Preseason Game against Jets

1a. Dre Kirkpatrick- Did not play
1b. Kevin Zeitler- Solid all night long.
2. Devon Still- Had a couple nice presures
3a. Mohamed Sanu- Mainly played on ST.
3b. Brandon Thompson- Stout against the run. Had a fumble recovery.
4. Orson Charles- Mainly played ST. Had one catch
5a. Shaun Prater- Did not play
5b. Marvin Jones- Had a nice 46 yrd catch.
5c. George Iloka- Did not notice him playing very much.
6. Dan Herron- Had a couple late carries
FA- Vontaze Burfict- Had a pick against Tebow.

21ST
08-11-2012, 07:42 AM
DT Brockers - can't be blocked by one person. Massive man. Athletic and strong
WR Quick- Looks good. Big, fast and very athletic.
CB Jenoris Jenkins - looks like a future bowler
RB Pead- very impressive. Steven Jackson says the kid is really good. Sproles type
CB Trumaine Johnson - looks good so far. Big CB with good skills
WR Givens - very fast, good hands, runs good routes. Little timid catching balls in the middle of the field, but great speed on the outside. DJax clone
OG Watkins - road grader

Rams draft looks very impressive. Could be a franchise changer along with 2 more #1's from Washington the next 2 years.

quick is a very good friend of mine. my dawg is gonna be a straight up BEAST

armageddon
08-11-2012, 09:06 AM
quick is a very good friend of mine. my dawg is gonna be a straight up BEAST


Very cool. I kind of wish the Rams would have taken Jefferey, but I do think Quick has WAY more upside. Quick looks like an athletic freak. 6'5 220 lbs. Reminds me of TO, Andre Johnson and a more athletic Marshall. Am I off base ?

Bengals78
08-11-2012, 09:37 AM
Kevin Zeitler was impressive all day. Strong in the run game.

Vontaze looked good. Had the awesome pick.

Jones showed his explosive side.

Still had more than a few pressures. He played the run quite well.

Thompson plays bigger than he looks. Looked strong.

Dontay Moch who might as well be a rookie (played one snap last season in the pre season) looked really impressive.

Bengals78
08-11-2012, 09:39 AM
And I have to add, having little to no expectation for Burfict is paying off. Making it easier to like him now.

21ST
08-11-2012, 10:19 AM
Very cool. I kind of wish the Rams would have taken Jefferey, but I do think Quick has WAY more upside. Quick looks like an athletic freak. 6'5 220 lbs. Reminds me of TO, Andre Johnson and a more athletic Marshall. Am I off base ?

He is deff a freak of nature. i watched him drop 32 in a middle school basketball game in 8th grade, nobody on our team could guard him. He was shooting left hand jumpers, right hand jumpers dunking and all of that. Thats when i knew he wasnt regular. The most humble guy in the world though.

diabsoule
08-11-2012, 01:12 PM
Akiem Hicks still looks raw, as he should, but he is manhandling double teams against 2nd team offensive lines

Rcee
08-11-2012, 02:29 PM
guess i'll do one for the broncos

Derek Wolfe: looked pretty good. had a couple of sacks, albeit against the bears. the first was a coverage/hustle sack but the second was a good play. looks pretty much exactly how i thought, a solid dude who gives it his all on every play.

Brock Osweiler: was surprisingly decent. small sample size, but didn't look completely confused, like i imagined he would.

Ronnie Hillman: didn't play, hammy.

Omar Bolden: didn't do anything to stand out which probably is a good thing for a DB.

Philip Blake: our backup oline looked pretty terrible altogether.

Malik Jackson: had a fumble recovery. surprised how big he looks, but didn't really stand out on the field

Danny Trevathan: looked fast. was all over the field.

Side notes: Shea McClellin looked good rushing the passer. Was against our backup line (which really is awful) but he passed the eye test. needs to get bigger if he wants to be an everydown player imo.

alshon jeffery looked pgood.

not a rookie, but nate irving was the most impressive player on the field in this game. thats not really saying much though.

draftguru151
08-11-2012, 02:49 PM
Tannehill looked pretty good, accurate, made some nice throws. Martin struggled a bit (couple offsides), but was ok. Olivier Vernon flashed some but is a while away. Egnew had one impressive catch then dropped an easy one the next play. Lamar Miller showed off some speed but didn't have many chances. Kheeston Randall and Rishard Matthews looked solid for late rounders.

vidae
08-11-2012, 03:17 PM
Devon Wylie was impressive. Poe was solid but not great as he was doubled pretty much all night. Jeff Allen looked good, Donald Stephenson looked ok.

onejayhawk
08-11-2012, 09:37 PM
Devon Wylie was impressive. Poe was solid but not great as he was doubled pretty much all night. Jeff Allen looked good, Donald Stephenson looked ok.

Wylie flat dropped a very catchable pass on a crossing pattern. That said, he was open. His speed is very nice in the pattern. Til now Jamaal Charles wwas the only speed guy on the offense.

J

Cigaro
08-11-2012, 09:42 PM
Kuechly played very well tonight, looks like his transition is going to be seamless.

Silatolu was alright. Neither bad nor good. Hopefully he will continue to progress, definitely looked there was upside to him.

Joe Adams was a very quick and slippery return man, will almost certainly be our starting returner come week one.

Other than that, I did not see any noticeable rookie performances for the Panthers, although I did start to tune out later in the game.

Forgot about the punter Nortman. I doubt anyone cares, but he was impressive tonight.

jayceheathman
08-11-2012, 10:08 PM
Kevin Zeitler was impressive all day. Strong in the run game.

Vontaze looked good. Had the awesome pick.

Jones showed his explosive side.

Still had more than a few pressures. He played the run quite well.

Thompson plays bigger than he looks. Looked strong.

Dontay Moch who might as well be a rookie (played one snap last season in the pre season) looked really impressive.

How did Taveon Rodgers do? I think they may let him play a little at CB but he was mostly a returner and WR for us in college. He has a lot of speed. I was hoping the Texans would get him.

CashmoneyDrew
08-11-2012, 11:13 PM
Kendall Wright literally birthed a Phoenix carrying the sword of Gryffindor while on the field tonight.

OzTitan
08-12-2012, 05:19 AM
Kendall Wright literally birthed a Phoenix carrying the sword of Gryffindor while on the field tonight.

I was just coming in to point that out. I think it was most notable - most indeed.

DoughBoy
08-12-2012, 09:15 AM
Yep, Kendall looks like a surefire HOF. They might even have to make a new wing for him, so his statue won't be among among the lesser players.

dolphinfan2k5
08-13-2012, 12:48 AM
Here's all of Tannehill's week one snaps, courtesy of Universal Draft:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRLuJeICpoY

BuckeyeDan17
08-13-2012, 03:19 PM
Brandon Weeden looked like a rookie a fumble and an interception, but has a very, very nice arm. He's already an upgrade over McCoy which isn't actually saying much.

Travis Benjamin is fast as hell, thanks Da U.

Josh Gordon had no ******* idea what he was doing. His head seems like it's spinning with an NFL playbook. Furthermore, his body straight up just doesn't seem ready to endure an NFL season - god help him, and more specifically, god help the Cleveland Browns. This could be one of the worst offenses in NFL history.

georgiafan
08-13-2012, 03:22 PM
Brandon Weeden looked like a rookie a fumble and an interception, but has a very, very nice arm. He's already an upgrade over McCoy which isn't actually saying much.


The negatives about drafting Weeden have been talked about to death so no need for me to pile on those. Like you said at the end of the day he is a upgrade over Mccoy and I guess thats atleast half the battle. He did make a really nice throw to Benjamin early on in the game.

P-L
08-13-2012, 03:32 PM
Bill Bentley looked really good in camp and in the first preseason game. He'll probably struggle with bigger receivers but he can definitely play and has exceeded expectations so far.

Unbiased
08-16-2012, 11:25 AM
Blackmon, Branch, and Anger will make immediate impacts.
Marshall, Harris, and Pendleton are fighting for backup jobs. Pendleton may end up on PS. Julian Stanford is amazing. Already has a roster spot locked up. So if anyone here was high on him before the draft, you can feel good about that.

Bixby (Thumper)
08-17-2012, 09:23 AM
The ascension of Nick Foles begins.
(http://www.csnphilly.com/football-philadelphia-eagles/eagles-talk/Vick-says-rookie-Foles-can-be-great-in-N?blockID=758081&feedID=692)
“His poise has really impressed me,” Vick said. “Obviously, he has a big-time arm. I think Nick has all the ingredients to be a great quarterback in this league.”

“I think what you look at with any rookie is, are they getting better every day?” Reid said. “He seems to be doing that, and is more comfortable. We’ve got a load of plays in for him and he’s able to recite those properly. Now it is just making sure he’s got everybody down and that comes with reps but I would tell you we knew he was smart coming in and he hasn’t disappointed us in that area. He’s a pretty sharp kid, very diligent, works hard, and all of those things.”


Nick Foles is currently the #2 QB on the Eagles depth chart because Mike Kafka broke a bone in his non-throwing hand and given Mike Kafka's mediocre play so far in his career and mediocre tools, it's there for Nick to take permanently if he wants it.

vidae
08-17-2012, 10:49 AM
Oh god. What team will be fleeced this time?

Giantsfan1080
08-17-2012, 11:26 AM
Oh god. What team will be fleeced this time?

Andy Reid's gift to the NFL. There certainly is no one better at trading mediocre backup QB's for high draft picks.

Bengals78
08-17-2012, 12:27 PM
Mo Sanu caught a TD. Looked sexy doing it. I think scotty is still fapping.

Marvin Jones looked all kinds of awesome.

Still and Thompson didn't look as good as last week but both played the run well.

Iloka still needs work but can play the run well.

Orson Charles is playing solid. Shows potential to be an all around TE.

The OL as a whole (not just Zeitler) had an off night. Especially when Andy came out of the game and the starting OL was still in.

themaninblack
08-17-2012, 01:33 PM
I thought Still looked pretty darn good but I didn't really get to see him last week. He had multiple good pressures including that fluke tip play that ATL converted.

Bengals78
08-17-2012, 01:36 PM
I thought Still looked pretty darn good but I didn't really get to see him last week. He had multiple good pressures including that fluke tip play that ATL converted.

Still is gonna be a steal IMO.
He looks really damn good at times. Need get consistency up.

draftguru151
08-18-2012, 04:56 PM
Tannehill looked ok, made some good throws but missed some reads. OL got his destroyed and pressure led to a few tipped balls and there were also a handful of drops. Jonathan Martin got absolutely destroyed. Gave up a ton of pressure, missed blocks in the run game, had offsides and holding penalties. Olivier Vernon flashed some again, and is probably the teams second best pass rusher, but he's still inconsistent. Egnew sucked again. Lamar flashed some speed in the open field but had no running lanes when he got the ball. No one else was really note worthy.

phlysac
08-18-2012, 08:20 PM
http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/T+J+Graham+Buffalo+Bills+v+Minnesota+Vikings+iPnzq kg0jBQl.jpg

SuperMcGee
08-18-2012, 09:29 PM
^ Whatever you were going for, I agree. Graham can get behind people, I just hope the guy chucking the ball can get it to him. He has also looked better overall, showing effective play coming back and working underneath.

I do wonder what his field time will look like over the course of the season. He's not ahead of Donald Jones at the moment and is lightyears behind him as a blocker. He's made great progress and will get his moments, but shouldn't be expected to go off in this offense.

TitanHope
08-18-2012, 10:24 PM
Still is gonna be a steal IMO.
He looks really damn good at times. Need get consistency up.

I am so friggin' jealous of ya'lls draft. It's my fave.

ellsy82
08-18-2012, 10:42 PM
Rod Streater (rookie WR from Oakland) looks like he could be the next UDFA gem.

Bengals78
08-18-2012, 11:41 PM
I am so friggin' jealous of ya'lls draft. It's my fave.

you are just sweet talking me

Caulibflower
08-19-2012, 12:59 AM
Russell Wilson is balling. Think it might be time to see how he looks vs. a first-team defense.

Bixby (Thumper)
08-19-2012, 06:41 AM
Here is one that might intrigue you guys.

Damaris Johnson from Tulsa went undrafted because of character issues but the Eagles scooped him up and so far, its paying off. He was the active all-time leader in all-purpose yards despite not playing his senior year (he put up 7796 yards and 29 TDs in 40 games). He's not super fast but he's quick as a cat and he's been shaking guys all training camp.

So, fast forward to the first training camp game. Riley Cooper broke his collar bone in training camp. Jeremy Maclin's hamstring flares up. Who is the first guy off the bench? Damaris Johnson. He started with the first string players. He ended up putting up 4 receptions, 80 yards and 1 TD. He also had one huge punt return where Myron Rolle barely got him down but it was called back because of a penalty. If you'd like, you can watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj79Ihv34LY) him shake the hell out of Curtis Brown on the Steelers.

He's rising quick in Philly. Already above Marvin McNutt on the depth chart and he's the #1 punt returner too.

Don Vito
08-19-2012, 11:17 AM
I put the Titans/Bucs replay on just in time to see Bradley Sowell come in at left tackle for the Bucs. First play I watch, he gets "whooped" (in the words of the commentator) for a sack. Glad to see some things never change.

onejayhawk
08-19-2012, 11:20 AM
Here is one that might intrigue you guys.

Damaris Johnson from Tulsa went undrafted because of character issues but the Eagles scooped him up and so far, its paying off. He was the active all-time leader in all-purpose yards despite not playing his senior year (he put up 7796 yards and 29 TDs in 40 games). He's not super fast but he's quick as a cat and he's been shaking guys all training camp.

So, fast forward to the first training camp game. Riley Cooper broke his collar bone in training camp. Jeremy Maclin's hamstring flares up. Who is the first guy off the bench? Damaris Johnson. He started with the first string players. He ended up putting up 4 receptions, 80 yards and 1 TD. He also had one huge punt return where Myron Rolle barely got him down but it was called back because of a penalty. If you'd like, you can watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj79Ihv34LY) him shake the hell out of Curtis Brown on the Steelers.

He's rising quick in Philly. Already above Marvin McNutt on the depth chart and he's the #1 punt returner too.

Nah. When has there ever been a good FA WR from Tulsa?

J

V.I.P
08-25-2012, 07:38 PM
Mark Barron played lights out.. He had some big hits, a pick 6, and is always around the ball. We have a very good player here folks, its going to be fun to watch him grow.

diabsoule
08-25-2012, 10:19 PM
Steelers fear RG DeCastro has torn right ACL http://dlvr.it/23MBSP

BuckeyeDan17
08-25-2012, 10:48 PM
damn that sucks major ass. I wanted him rather than weeden or anyone rather than him but that's a different story.

Furthermore, Billy Wynn looks solid and Trevin Wade doesn't suck. Mitchell Schwartz looks like he has no idea what he's doing. Josh Gordon has shown improvement each game thus far I'd say, he must continue to work hard to learn the nuances of being a professional.

Caddy
08-25-2012, 11:23 PM
Steelers fear RG DeCastro has torn right ACL http://dlvr.it/23MBSP

Davin Joseph and Decastro in successive days with bad knee injuries. By far the worst part of pre-season. :(

Thecollegedropout
08-26-2012, 10:54 PM
Jets Rookies:

DE Quinton Coples is the real. He is just exploding off that line and he was getting in the face of one of the toughest QBs to bring down in Newton. Even caused a fumble. I think he's going to be a really good one in due time....just might need to learn to pace himself better. He'll catch up to the speed of the NFL, I don't have my doubts on that. With he, Mo Wilk and Kenrick Ellis....the Jets DLine is young and going to be really good very soon. I think Coples and Wilk might just deliver some much need pressure.

WR Stephen Hill looked good outside of that huge drop that cost Sanchez an INT. Still is super raw and really learning what he can do as a big, tall, athletic speedster but I like the potential he brings. You can't teach speed or height....you can however get him to cut the drops down with enough concentration.

LB Demario Davis was steady. Once again, nothing flashy or anything that made him noticed but he didn't do anything wrong to get him noticed on the wrong side of things. I'll take it from him.

G Robert Griffin I think played RG during Tebow Time and he was alright. Didn't embarrass himself like Wayne Hunter and I thought he cut some good holes for Powell to run behind. Was alright, nothing to jump up and down about.

RB Terrance Ganaway was a DNP.....will get his chances vs Philly most likely.

S Josh Bush was alright. Had some nice plays, then got burned some plays. He was covering Olson and was playing against the 1st team Panthers offense so I think given where he was drafted and who he faced, he was ok. Should not be starting anytime soon for us but more than capable as a backup.

S Antonio Allen....first bad game by him, got burnt by the backup Panthers TE on a big play. Lone hiccup by him thus far this summer. Needs a load of work on pass coverage but great run stopper nevertheless.

WR Jordan White.....was okay, Tebow looked at him and he got fed once or twice but not much else afterwords. Hard to judge.

Panthers Rookies:

LB Luke Kuechly is the **** and I feel safe in picking him as my front runner for DROTY. The fact he can slam the bowling ball that is Greene down like that on a few occasions says it all. Strong, smart, quick running East-West....has it all. Panther fans have a right to be giddy.

CB Josh Norman threw an absolute punk move to possibly end Baker's season. Threw an unnecessary leg tackle when the ball wasn't even close and just blew up Baker's knee. Just really unnecessary, especially since it was an endzone play and Norman wasn't even playing for the ball. I guess they don't teach you any fundamentals in Coastal Carolina so I guess I chalk it down to him being raw and having no clue on what to do in that scenario.

Brad Nortman wasn't bad in his 1-2 chances I think at punting. Wonder if this means the end of Nick Harris?

Don't think the other Panther rookies played though I could be wrong.

SeanTaylorRIP
08-26-2012, 11:03 PM
I thought Gannaway got some carries tonight?

Thecollegedropout
08-26-2012, 11:04 PM
I thought Gannaway got some carries tonight?
Mainly Greene and Powell though I could be wrong?

Brown Leader
08-27-2012, 12:31 AM
Despite the ESPN highlights and Tim Hasselbeck, Weeden didn't look that bad in the 3rd preseason game. Overall thru about 4 quarters I'm fairly impressed. He throws an accurate ball with real good zip or touch anywhere on the field. The biggest problems will be the receivers he's throwing to this season and the schedule. And I still think he could still get passed over next draft for another QB but he's clearly better than McCoy. Everything looks great about Colt until the ball comes out of his hand.

Of the other rooks around the league- been extremely impressed with Bernard Pierce-who looks like the best rookie RB thus far to me-although D.wilson is beasting too -but I already knew he would... and of course, Russell Wilson, who looks like a mini McNabb.

GaMeTiMe
08-27-2012, 02:02 AM
A rookie that's gotten little to no hype to this point is Vick Ballard..seemingly more potential than Donald Brown ad I'd expect him to handle the load there at least a few weeks into the season

Bixby (Thumper)
08-27-2012, 03:43 AM
Mychal Kendricks is going to be really, really good. He's played better than any other linebacker on the Eagles by a mile this pre-season. He's everywhere when the Eagles first defense is on the field. Love him so far.

nobodyinparticular
08-27-2012, 03:48 AM
Mychal Kendricks is going to be really, really good. He's played better than any other linebacker on the Eagles by a mile this pre-season. He's everywhere when the Eagles first defense is on the field. Love him so far.

He would have been a really nice get for the Raiders. I'm happy with Burris for sure, but I was hoping for Kendricks in the draft. Unfortunately he didn't fall.

descendency
08-27-2012, 04:42 AM
WR Stephen Hill looked good outside of that huge drop that cost Sanchez an INT. Still is super raw and really learning what he can do as a big, tall, athletic speedster but I like the potential he brings. You can't teach speed or height....you can however get him to cut the drops down with enough concentration.

He sort of screwed Sanchez out of a touchdown that went through his arms. I saw some people calling it "high" but it looked right on target. Guys like him have to get those balls.

Overall, he is still a big powerful blocker, which helps the Jets - because they're going to be running quite a bit.

descendency
08-27-2012, 04:46 AM
Oh god. What team will be fleeced this time?

I think Foles may stick around for the Eagles.

The QB that might be traded is Vick. His contract is voidable after this year so he would be highly desirable. Trade Vick and let Foles work his magic...

Caddy
08-27-2012, 05:17 AM
I'm feeling pretty good about this LB class so far. Kendrick, Kuechly and David have all looked pretty great as 4-3 guys.

V.I.P
09-09-2012, 07:02 PM
Doug Martin - had 116 yards of total offense 95 came on the ground at 4 yards a carry.

Oh and Mark Barron did this...

http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/mark-barron-hits-steve-smith-9-9-12.gif


Lavonte David looked solid he made a couple key tackles, but one play he bit hard on a play action fake and Cam made him look like a rookie

Don Vito
09-09-2012, 07:12 PM
Hightower and Tavon Wilson were on the field a lot, each looked good and made a big play.

Chandler Jones is an absolute monster. He is exactly what we have needed for like 6 or 7 games. yes it is early but he was a force today. The fact that a lot of people still see him as raw with the ability to get much better gives me a tingly sensation. He was lining up in different spots and abused a very good tackle (Roos) on several occasions. Yes it is early but there is a lot to be excited about.

SeanTaylorRIP
09-09-2012, 07:19 PM
That Griffin guy was ok today. Alfred Morris though was really impressive and showed that he's legit, he's an old school banger. He's short, pretty slow, and has little shake, but he hits the hole hard and with attitude. Got met by David Hawthorne in the hole and willed his way to a TD. He did get lost though in pass protection which makes keeping Royster over Hightower puzzling.

FUNBUNCHER
09-09-2012, 07:33 PM
Stephen Hill looks poised to have an impressive year for the Jets. He was the biggest surprise of the day IMO out of all the rookies who played Sunday.

His physical tools are Megatron-esque, just needs more experience and refinement as a route runner and learn to become more consistent catching the football.

Hurricanes25
09-09-2012, 07:35 PM
Stephen Hill had a nice game. He dropped the first ball thrown to him but settled in after that. He ended up with 5 receptions, 89 yards, 2 td's. Good debut. He's still very raw so I'll keep my expectations reasonable but I'm very excited.

Caddy
09-09-2012, 07:38 PM
Mark Barron was pretty beastly breaking plays up, laying the wood in defense and just being awesome. It's also very, very nice to have a LB in Lavonte David who can penetrate and wrap up the ball carrier. Doug Martin obviously played well. Got 20+ carries for just under 100 yards. I expect big things from him this season based on todays game.

Najee Goode was inactive, Keith Tandy and Leonard Johnson played special teams, and Michael Smith returned a few kicks.

bored of education
09-09-2012, 07:40 PM
Dontari Poe did not get blown off the ball once in a one on one situation. He looked very stout in doubles. Kept his head up. Had a TFL as well. Very good game.

derza222
09-09-2012, 07:56 PM
Stephen Hill had a nice game. He dropped the first ball thrown to him but settled in after that. He ended up with 5 receptions, 89 yards, 2 td's. Good debut. He's still very raw so I'll keep my expectations reasonable but I'm very excited.

Coming into the season I was hoping Hill could do something like what Torrey Smith did last year, and after the game he just had I think he certainly still has a chance to do that. Obviously has great tools, showed questionable hands in the preseason but tightened it up today after that first drop. We'll see how things go, but he's obviously going to require attention after this game which should help out Holmes and Keller.

Coples was quieter than in the preseason and had a silly penalty, but also had a decent TFL IIRC. Pass rush wasn't huge, no sacks in the game, but it'll be interesting to watch what he does over the course of the season.

SuperMcGee
09-09-2012, 07:59 PM
TJ Graham was inactive today, puzzling many. I'm sure he'll get his chances moving forward, as David Nelson appears to have a pretty serious knee injury.

Stephon Gilmore... let's not.

keylime_5
09-09-2012, 08:45 PM
Richardson had no where to run. Got hit at the LOS almost every carry. Had a couple nice plays including the one where he trucked a defenseless Kurt Coleman and knocked his helmet off!

Josh Gordon had a nice catch or two. WRs weren't really thrown more than ~15 catchable passes sadly, so not much to evaluate.

Travis Benjamin had a 35 yard run on a reverse that was nearly a touchdown.

Mitchell Schwartz started at RT. I think he gave up a sack, I don't think he played bad, but the OLine in general didn't look that great today as a unit.

Billy Winn started at DT. John Hughes played in rotation at DT. Both these guys looked pretty good as the Browns defensive line had a dominant performance against Michael Vick and the Eagles' pass protection.

LJ Fort started at SAM linebacker, had a pick and dropped a would-be game-sealing INT at the end of the game in the endzone. Looked great. Undrafted rookie LB from Northern Iowa I think it was. Craig Stevens, not a rookie but a 2nd year player who didn't play anywhere last year, played almost the entire game as well at WILL and looked great too. Two great finds at LB for the Browns.

Brandon Weeden should be in the "Rookie Don't Watch Thread" instead of this one.

Rob S
09-09-2012, 08:54 PM
TJ Graham was inactive today, puzzling many. I'm sure he'll get his chances moving forward, as David Nelson appears to have a pretty serious knee injury.

Stephon Gilmore... let's not.

****. ****. ****.

Thecollegedropout
09-09-2012, 11:08 PM
Coming into the season I was hoping Hill could do something like what Torrey Smith did last year, and after the game he just had I think he certainly still has a chance to do that. Obviously has great tools, showed questionable hands in the preseason but tightened it up today after that first drop. We'll see how things go, but he's obviously going to require attention after this game which should help out Holmes and Keller.

Coples was quieter than in the preseason and had a silly penalty, but also had a decent TFL IIRC. Pass rush wasn't huge, no sacks in the game, but it'll be interesting to watch what he does over the course of the season.
Pretty much wraps up my feelings on our rookies.

Don't think D. Davis got many snaps at all if he did.

Da-Phins
09-10-2012, 12:54 PM
Dolphins rookies in game 1.....LOL......

Legacy
09-10-2012, 01:18 PM
Doug Martin - had 116 yards of total offense 95 came on the ground at 4 yards a carry.

Oh and Mark Barron did this...

http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/mark-barron-hits-steve-smith-9-9-12.gif


Lavonte David looked solid he made a couple key tackles, but one play he bit hard on a play action fake and Cam made him look like a rookie
Here's another view of that hit:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/social_assets/nfl/Week_1/Panthers_Bucs/SteveSmithGetsBlownUP.gif

He also made an amazing PD that very well could have been the game-saving play:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1349052/barron_medium.gif

descendency
09-10-2012, 06:25 PM
Why must idiots keep dropping their heads. Do they want to be like Stephen Hawking (minus the physics genius) when they are 40? I like the play as a fan, but ... talking with a keyboard and robot voice is only cool for a few minutes. After that, you're just a bed+chair ridden former player that no one cares about.

And to re-iterate what was already said... the Patriots found 3 immediate big time contributors (and 2 obvious impact players) in their first 3 picks.

Regarding both first rounders, Chandler Jones was giving Michael Roos some fits and Dont'a Hightower was a nightmare all over the field.

Nate Ebner (7th round) made some nice plays on STs.

Tavon Wilson (2nd) had a nice pick in the end zone on a tip drill play (on a deep heave). He also had some other nice plays.

Brandon Bolden (UDFA) looked pretty bad though.

Alfonzo Dennard (7th round) and Jake Bequette (3rd round) were inactive.

Don Vito
09-10-2012, 07:34 PM
I wouldn't go that far with Bolden, he had one nice run and the rest of the series they had like 9 in the box since they knew we were running it since it was garbage time. He had nowhere to go, it was time to just hold on to the ball.

saintsfan912
09-10-2012, 08:33 PM
Here's another view of that hit:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/social_assets/nfl/Week_1/Panthers_Bucs/SteveSmithGetsBlownUP.gif

He also made an amazing PD that very well could have been the game-saving play:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1349052/barron_medium.gif

Love seeing Steve Smith get blown up.

themaninblack
09-11-2012, 12:22 AM
Thought Zeitler played damn good tonight. Had one bad play where he was beat by Ngata but other than that he and Andre teamed up to provide a great push on the right side of our line. It's just a shame we were playing from behind because I would've loved to see us pound the rock more. I like what I saw from Zeit though, he even did some great things when he was going one on one with Ngata. Seems as advertised thus far.

Devon Still was pretty much a non factor though I wouldn't say he played bad. They kept taking out Geno to bring him in which I didn't really like but he did ok in run support though I didn't really see anything of note from him as far as pressures go. Was on the ground a few times but seemed to hold his own for the most part.

Brandon Thompson and Orson Charles played a bit but they didn't really seem to have done much.

Bengals78
09-11-2012, 12:27 AM
Thought Zeitler played damn good tonight. Had one bad play where he was beat by Ngata but other than that he and Andre teamed up to provide a great push on the right side of our line. It's just a shame we were playing from behind because I would've loved to see us pound the rock more. I like what I saw from Zeit though, he even did some great things when he was going one on one with Ngata. Seems as advertised thus far.

Devon Still was pretty much a non factor though I wouldn't say he played bad. They kept taking out Geno to bring him in which I didn't really like but he did ok in run support though I didn't really see anything of note from him as far as pressures go. Was on the ground a few times but seemed to hold his own for the most part.

Brandon Thompson and Orson Charles played a bit but they didn't really seem to have done much.

Thompson looked pretty solid.
Still was bad at times. He got OWNED on a trap. Needs to tone back his aggressiveness.

robert pancake gallery
09-11-2012, 01:53 PM
Richardson had no where to run. Got hit at the LOS almost every carry. Had a couple nice plays including the one where he trucked a defenseless Kurt Coleman and knocked his helmet off!

Josh Gordon had a nice catch or two. WRs weren't really thrown more than ~15 catchable passes sadly, so not much to evaluate.

Travis Benjamin had a 35 yard run on a reverse that was nearly a touchdown.

Mitchell Schwartz started at RT. I think he gave up a sack, I don't think he played bad, but the OLine in general didn't look that great today as a unit.

Billy Winn started at DT. John Hughes played in rotation at DT. Both these guys looked pretty good as the Browns defensive line had a dominant performance against Michael Vick and the Eagles' pass protection.

LJ Fort started at SAM linebacker, had a pick and dropped a would-be game-sealing INT at the end of the game in the endzone. Looked great. Undrafted rookie LB from Northern Iowa I think it was. Craig Stevens, not a rookie but a 2nd year player who didn't play anywhere last year, played almost the entire game as well at WILL and looked great too. Two great finds at LB for the Browns.

Brandon Weeden should be in the "Rookie Don't Watch Thread" instead of this one.

mitchell schwartz played like dog **** along with everyone else on the offensive line

phlysac
09-11-2012, 05:41 PM
Safety Trenton Robinson was the only rookie to play for the 49ers. He logged 15 snaps on Special Teams.

soybean
09-11-2012, 05:55 PM
Maybe the best rookie wr this year

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1348421/hilljets.gif

Saints-Tigers
09-11-2012, 06:14 PM
Robert Griffin was really good, but I'm really afraid that Sunday was more of an indication of how bad the Saints were defensively(Didn't help that the offense left them on the field so much).

He still looked like a rookie when we got legitimate pressure, but he really is special! Congrats Washington.

Brown Leader
09-11-2012, 10:53 PM
Browns rookies vs Philadelphia.

Weeden
Inaccurate, didn't handle pressure, lost confidence as things wore on. Looked "not ready for primetime" and that's squarely on the coaching.

Richardson
Imo looked pretty much like expected. He's a slow starter once he gets the handoff. His forte is once he gets into the 2nd level. I think his unfamiliarity with the lineman also contributed. For instance, he now won't count on Schwartz being able to make any blocks.

Mitchell Schwartz
Very soft. Especially in the run game. He was manhandled by Babin, who's not exactly known for his run stopping prowess. Average as a pass protector.

Josh Gordon
Not terrible but I don't see him as this team's future #1. He doesn't flash any explosiveness to his game. He's big, strong and smooth. Looks like a guy that can stay in league a long while but not a quite a difference maker. I'd say his ceiling is Marques Colston but the Browns would need a Brees caliber QB getting the ball to him.

Travis Benjamin
More impactful than I thought when he was drafted. Fits as a field stretcher;just don't ask him to win any jump balls.

Billy Winn
Very solid. I'm anxious to see him keep it up though because his rep was inconsistency.

John Hughes
Not bad. I think he does what is expected of him and he'll improve once he learns the nuances.

L.J. Fort
Nothing special but made plays when they came to him, except the big one.

holt_bruce81
09-11-2012, 11:23 PM
Rams:

Michael Brockers DT
- Did not Play (ankle injury)

Brian Quick WR
- Did not play. Was activated but I dont think he was ever on the field.

Janoris Jenkins CB
- looked really good, was talking smack from the very first play of the hame (which I absolutely loved) Also had a interception off Stafford

Isaiah Pead RB
-Had a few Kick Returns, looked ok. Nothing great.

Trumaine Johnson
- Looked decent from the few snaps he got, didn't make much of an impact.

Chris Givens WR
- bEAT THE entire Lions defense that would of been 6-points. But Bradford saw him late, and just underthrew him. Only play I can remember him being in.

Rok Watkins OG
- sTARTED at LG when Scott Wells went down. Looked really good out there.

Greg Zuerlein K
- Monster Leg. That is all.

Daryl Richardson
- Had 2 carries on the day for 20 yards. Runs hard.

John Hekker P
- Had some nice punts. Averaged 48.2 Yards per. with a 57 yarder being his longest.

Bucs147
09-12-2012, 04:06 AM
He also made an amazing PD that very well could have been the game-saving play:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1349052/barron_medium.gif

Here's the video of the deflection:

K9gCWk596fI

Caddy
09-12-2012, 04:28 AM
Here's the video of the deflection:

K9gCWk596fI

That is such a sexy play.

Cudders
09-12-2012, 09:54 AM
Brandon Weeden was just pathetic against the Eagles and squandered an admirable defensive showing from the Browns. It is hard to speak in certainties about a quarterback that’s preparing for his second pro game, but he needs to show marked improvement this week. (As an aside, I legit don’t think it’s possible to have a worse game, so I guess he’s got that going for him.) With a new owner in town, a lot of jobs are tied to Weeden’s performance. And, without this coaching staff’s support, Weeden could find himself holding the clipboard for most of his NFL career. Other teams won’t have much use for an overage retread.

His biggest issue in his debut was handling pressure. In short, he didn’t. At all. He melted whenever Philadelphia cranked up the heat on him. In fact, in situations where the Eagles brought pressure, Weeden was just 3-of-18 for 49 yards with 3 interceptions. It was the same exact shortcomings we saw at Oklahoma State. Except this time those issues were exacerbated because the pressure was more consistent and the schemes more complex. He was an unmitigated disaster. Even for a rookie with an underwhelming supporting cast. And his stronger arm didn’t open up much for this offense because his pocket presence limited shot opportunities. He couldn’t stand in there for more than a couple seconds without wilting. If I’m Mike Zimmer, I’m implementing a bunch of pressure packages into the game plan and I’m putting it all on Brandon Weeden to beat what I bring and make me adapt.

Which means the Browns need to create counters that rebuild Weeden’s confidence. I believe this offensive staff needs to get back to basics with Weeden. Run the concepts he’s most familiar with out of the formations he’s most comfortable in. If that means rolling out a no-huddle, one-back, shotgun-based short spread to start the game, then so be it. Script the first drive (or two), emphasize execution of those snaps during the week of practice, and then attempt to catch the Bengals off-guard with it. Don’t let them substitute into their desired sub-packages. Don’t let them rotate bodies for a fresh push. Do whatever it is that suits Weeden. Tailor the game plan to his strengths. (See: Mike Shanahan’s calls against the Saints. He simplified reads for RGIII and gave him the space to do things he’s done before. It won’t work forever, sure, but it’s an immediate development-booster, and that’s what’s important right now. Taking it week-to-week.)

Other than that, I’d expect to get the ball to the perimeter quicker on bubble screens and whatnot. Little is a tough receiver with the ball in his hands. He can make things happen after the catch and test a defensive backfield’s tackling skills. Twins to either side with Cribbs running a clear-out/blocking route in front of him is something worth exploring more. Cribbs does that well. The Browns hunkered down in max protection for most of the game, but chip-and-release patterns from tight ends can be effective. Weeden threw a ton of slants, but as corners started to recognize the routes and jump the breaks, the offense didn’t adjust. The offense didn’t use their short-breaking tendencies to their advantage enough to keep them honest. And, if Owen Marecic were even a little more than worthless, then he could merit a wrinkle, but he’s just a college reject living off his inflated one-platoon reputation at this point. But, the main thing is to use a multitude of simpler concepts to ease him into some of the NFL staples. Because he struggled transitioning to them against the Eagles.

Richardson looked like a running back with rust. I think he shakes that off once he gets into football shape. Love his competitiveness though as he lobbied for more carries in his first game back. His biggest hindrance this season is going to be those guard spots though. Even more so if Shurmur insists on running him between the B-gaps. For some reason, the Browns knew what was on the roster and chose not to upgrade them or even bring in some worthwhile competition. Right guard Shawn Lauvao is a shield blocker that can’t anchor or push. Left guard Jason Pinkston is masked inside of Joe Thomas and Alex Mack, but I haven’t been enamored with him either. Rookie right tackle Mitchell Schwartz was never the mauler he was advertised to be, and it’s tough to expect him to shoulder the load on the right side as a green technician.

Rookie receivers didn’t get a chance to show much. Josh Gordon has all the NFL projectables and needs some polishing. Travis Benjamin has speed in spades and that’s something the Browns didn’t have before his arrival. What frustrated me most was how Weeden utilized them. For example, throwing Benjamin 50-50 balls with larger corners draped on him. How is a 5-10 speedster going to high-point the ball better than a thicker 6-3 receiver with long arms and some leaps? Ugh.

Billy Winn and John Hughes both flashed some good things at defensive tackle and bring some things to an inside rotation that Taylor and Rubin don’t if they continue to improve their play.

Undrafted free agent L.J. Fort started at strong side linebacker in place of Scott Fujita and James-Michael Johnson and shouldn’t be giving that spot back with the suspensions getting uplifted. He’s a far rangier linebacker than Fujita and that’s something the Browns lacked at the second level last season outside of D’Qwell Jackson. Fujita and Gocong are liabilities outside of the box. Fort showed some promise in the preseason and wasn’t lost in the regular season opener. Exploring his upside does more for the future than giving those snaps to Fujita.

K Train
09-12-2012, 10:03 AM
Mike Adams continues to be shaky, shows flashes one play and gets abused the next. No help to him that hes had to play next to legursky both in the preseason at LT and in week one as backup RT. Legursky is a backup center, thats it

themaninblack
09-12-2012, 03:08 PM
Thompson looked pretty solid.
Still was bad at times. He got OWNED on a trap. Needs to tone back his aggressiveness.


Did see a pretty awesome pressure from Still upon a second viewing and he looked better overall than what I thought. You're right about his aggressiveness but he did some good things. Thompson looked stout in the run game as well. He played a little bit more than I realized at the outset.

Love DVRing games and going back to watch them even though this game was quite ****** for a Bengals fan.

Legacy
09-12-2012, 03:21 PM
That is such a sexy play.
Indeed.

One thing I'm really liking about Mark Barron is the fact that he doesn't feel the need to act like he's all that after he makes a good play. Watching him, you get the impression that it's just another day at the office for him.

He did the same thing when he blew up Steve Smith. He stared at him for a couple of seconds like, "How do you like that?" and went straight back to the huddle.

Giantsfan1080
09-12-2012, 07:05 PM
Schiano is an excellent DB coach. Barron will be the best DB out of the 2012 class because of it.

vidae
09-12-2012, 07:17 PM
Poe looked sexy against the Falcons.

Giantsfan1080
09-12-2012, 07:18 PM
Did Cox play at all for Philly?

Brown Leader
09-12-2012, 11:15 PM
Did Cox play at all for Philly?

They rotated a lot, but he had a sack and contributed to a dominate run defense, which is 180 from last season for the Eagles.

Caddy
09-12-2012, 11:19 PM
They rotated a lot, but he had a sack and contributed to a dominate run defense, which is 180 from last season for the Eagles.

Dominant....

Leon Sandcastle
09-17-2012, 02:23 PM
Cordy Glenn was destroying people yesterday. Yeah I think he's an LT.

tjsunstein
09-17-2012, 02:30 PM
Jeron McMillan got his first career pick off Cutler, Jerel Worthy started fod the first time.

Grizzlegom
09-17-2012, 02:41 PM
Tannehill looked much better against a not-so-dominant defense and didn't turn the ball over at all. Jonathan Martin started again and has played better than in the preseason. Lamar Miller had a great debut.

cmarq83
09-17-2012, 02:52 PM
Chandler Jones has been the Patriot's best player through 2 games. Dont'a Hightower and Tavon Wilson have made plays as well. Nate Ebner missed a block on the blocked punt yesterday.

armageddon
09-17-2012, 02:54 PM
Rams rookie RB Daryl Richardson is somebody to keep an eye. He looks really good.

K Train
09-17-2012, 02:59 PM
Cordy Glenn was destroying people yesterday. Yeah I think he's an LT.

every play i saw glenn, and the whole interior line was just destroying people

BuckeyeDan17
09-17-2012, 03:00 PM
http://i.minus.com/ic18NrZxmP1i7.gif

K Train
09-17-2012, 03:07 PM
trent was just sexual for 3 of my fantasy teams

bigbluedefense
09-17-2012, 03:08 PM
David Wilson: Looked good for 2 runs vs Dallas. Then fumbled. Then cried. Then sucked vs Tampa.

Rueben Randle: Flashed potential in the preseason. Is currently eating a sandwich on the bench.

Jayron Hosely: Looked great in the PS. Got a pick 6, celebrated by high stepping and dragging his foot against the turf. Got turf toe. Now is also currently eating a sandwich on the bench until he heals.

Adrian Robinson: Looked lost in the PS. Won't sniff any playing time this year.

Mosely: Looked mediocre in PS. Went to IR. (One of those classic healthy IR moves that every team does).

McCants: Sucked. Cut.

Kuhn: Looked good enough to make the 53 in camp. Hasn't seen any game action yet during the regular season.

keylime_5
09-17-2012, 03:17 PM
Richardson beast!!! Weeden was really good, bounced back and actually looked like a starting QB. Billy Winn got hurt and left the game :( Mitchell Schwartz played better against the Bengals after struggling against Jason Babin in week one. What a difference one week makes for all those rookies.

killxswitch
09-17-2012, 03:19 PM
Andrew Luck: lead a game-winning drive vs. the Vikings, covering 45 yards in under 25 game seconds. No turnovers, either. He needs to step into his deep throws, but that's hard because the OL sucks and he can't set his feet. He's on a leash for now but really shines in no-huddle.

Coby Fleener caught some good passes in the 1st game but was pretty quiet in week 2. He needs to be used more in the red zone.

Dwayne Allen got his first TD. Has been a big help blocking. Tough guy.

TY Hilton nothing to report

Josh Chapman on the PUP, hopefully will start at some point this year.

Vick Ballard should really be starting over Dammit Donald Brown but with this OL it doesn't really matter that much.

LaVon Brazill nothing to report

TACKLE
09-17-2012, 03:23 PM
I wasn't able to watch the whole game but Courtney Upshaw looked very solid vs. Philly yesterday.

Lamar Miller had a great debut.

Maybe it's the Cane wearing #26 thing, but he reminded me so much of Broncos Portis on that TD run. I still think Lamar will be the best back from this class not named Trent Richardson. Reggie just needs to go back to his old ways so Lamar can shine. :p

K Train
09-17-2012, 03:23 PM
saw fleener was targeted a few time in the endzone and on 3rd downs

fenikz
09-17-2012, 05:51 PM
Bobby Massie has looked really solid at RT especially in pass protection, Cardinals have only given up 2 sacks(Batiste & Synder I believe)

Jamell Fleming is officially become our NB with 80 snaps against the Patriots, I expect he will take over as the #2 sometime this year

Bengals78
09-17-2012, 06:00 PM
Still and Thompson are still raw as hell and it is showing.
Bursts of good play followed by head scratchers.

Sanu and Charles didn't contribute much.
Marvin Jones got some reps. Threw a DB to the ground when he tried to press cover him on the Tate TD.

Zeitler has been very good for a rookie RG on an OL with 3 new starters on it.

And Burfict was about non-existent.

Rcee
09-17-2012, 06:04 PM
Derek wolfe is our starting left end, kicking him inside in nickle packages. Looked good week 1 against the steelers. Stout vs. the run, recorded a sack as well. Someone to keep an eye out for tonight.

I'd like to go on about the rest of our rookie class but thats litrally the only contribution thus far. wru ronnie hillman :'(

San Diego Chicken
09-17-2012, 08:05 PM
Reyes is beasting. Looks bad for Corey Liuget that Reyes is a far better player at this point. Both Reyes and Ingram were perfect fits for Pagano's scheme. Mike Harris seemed to struggle a little bit more than he did last week, but did an serviceable job. Ladarius Green had a nice 31 yard catch and run although it should have been called back due to an illegal screen from Eddie Royal. Still haven't seen much from Brandon Taylor since Atari Bigby seems to be doing well at SS.

Complex
09-17-2012, 09:09 PM
Titans rookies = bust. The whole team sucks.

themaninblack
09-17-2012, 11:54 PM
Thought Zeit had another good game. It irks me when they bring out Geno to put in Still but he's got some good qualities. Seems like he needs work on gap integrity and fully understanding his assignments but other than that he looked fine. Thompson played a bit again and looked pretty solid. Marvin Jones even saw some PT, and although he didn't make any catches, he did draw a pretty nice PI call late in the game. Wish they'd give him some more chances as he seems like he can really go deep when need be. Burfict had a limited workload and there was some good and bad but it was his first game at OLB so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

killxswitch
09-18-2012, 08:22 AM
saw fleener was targeted a few time in the endzone and on 3rd downs

He had what I think would've been a TD hit him in both hands and bounce away.

georgiafan
09-18-2012, 09:27 AM
Derek wolfe is our starting left end, kicking him inside in nickle packages. Looked good week 1 against the steelers. Stout vs. the run, recorded a sack as well. Someone to keep an eye out for tonight.



I went to the game last night and saw Derek Wolfe warming up before the game with shorts on. He looked very impressive I thought he was an OL at first and they wasnt any fat on him. He passed the eye ball test for sure.

AntoinCD
09-18-2012, 10:17 AM
Chandler Jones had one particular series against Arizona that was just pure sex. Baptiste couldn't have held him more if he had glue over his hands. I don't remember any first year pass rusher use their hands better than Jones does. What he lacks in elite speed he more than makes up for with his ability to disengage from blockers, core strength and pass rush moves. He threw a sick stutter step on Baptiste in the above mentioned series where he faked to jump inside, knocked Baptiste's hands down and bent under him. It would be an understatement to say I am happy with Jones to this point.

Jones may already be the Pats best defender against run and pass combined.

Had another forced fumble on Sunday as well.

Hightower had a nice game as well. Shot some gaps and made sound tackles.

Wilson had a quieter game but the secondary in general played very well.

Bequette hasn't done anything and Ebner missed a key block on Quentin Groves.

The two 1st rounders already look like studs.

K Train
09-18-2012, 10:24 AM
mike adams has been playing better on the right side in spot duty

Brown Leader
09-19-2012, 11:15 AM
Browns rookies vs Cincinnati.

Weeden
RGIII was the first rookie QB in NFL history to throw for over 300 yards with multiple TDs and no ints in his debut. Against Cin, Weeden did the same and was more impressive doing so. Stunning really considering how awful his debut was. He still missed reads and his TD tosses were fortunate throws but he showed incredible mental toughness coming back from that week 1 embarrassment.

Richardson
His line did much better and he got more opportunities in the open field and shined.

Mitchell Schwartz
Had as dramatic a rebound game as Weeden. TR had his best runs to his side and he held up well in protection against one of the better pass rushing Dlines.

Josh Gordon
Quiet, although Weeden didn't see him wide open en route to the end zone in the first.

Travis Benjamin
Flashed his speed in each game. Wisely taken out jump ball situations;

Billy Winn
Again started and was solid, but knocked himself out colliding on a Cin lineman trying to track BJGE early on. Concussion.

John Hughes
Supposedly way overdrafted guy by Heckert had an impressive game getting extended time because of Winn. Stuffed the run and recorded a sack.

L.J. Fort
With the return of Fujita he made no impact.

Bengals78
09-19-2012, 11:28 AM
Browns rookies vs Cincinnati.

Weeden
RGIII was the first rookie QB in NFL history to throw for over 300 yards with multiple TDs and no ints in his debut. Against Cin, Weeden did the same and was more impressive doing so. Stunning really considering how awful his debut was. He still missed reads and his TD tosses were fortunate throws but he showed incredible mental toughness coming back from that week 1 embarrassment.

Richardson
His line did much better and he got more opportunities in the open field and shined.

Mitchell Schwartz
Had as dramatic a rebound game as Weeden. TR had his best runs to his side and he held up well in protection against one of the better pass rushing Dlines.

Josh Gordon
Quiet, although Weeden didn't see him wide open en route to the end zone in the first.

Travis Benjamin
Flashed his speed in each game. Wisely taken out jump ball situations;

Billy Winn
Again started and was solid, but knocked himself out colliding on a Cin lineman trying to track BJGE early on. Concussion.

John Hughes
Supposedly way overdrafted guy by Heckert had an impressive game getting extended time because of Winn. Stuffed the run and recorded a sack.

L.J. Fort
With the return of Fujita he made no impact.

Our DL is not one of the better pass rushing lines. Our best pass rusher didn't play and everyone else on our DL doesn't know how to pass rush outside of maybe Still but he is still very raw. Our DL has actually been horrible, well in comparison to 2011. But that is the standard I hold it to now. Schwartz went up against Robert Geathers and Jamaal Anderson (yes that Jamaal Anderson). Anderson, now on the IR, maxed out with a career high 3 sacks in 2011. Geathers hasn't topped 3.5 sacks 1 time. In 2006. Without Dunlap, our pass rush is god awful.
Despite all that, Weeden showed potential by being able to dissect our secondary.

Richardson is a monster in the open field. For a guy so big he is absolutely way too shifty.

Hughes looks like a steal

Brown Leader
09-19-2012, 11:54 AM
Our DL is not one of the better pass rushing lines. Our best pass rusher didn't play and everyone else on our DL doesn't know how to pass rush outside of maybe Still but he is still very raw. Our DL has actually been horrible, well in comparison to 2011. But that is the standard I hold it to now. Schwartz went up against Robert Geathers and Jamaal Anderson (yes that Jamaal Anderson). Anderson, now on the IR, maxed out with a career high 3 sacks in 2011. Geathers hasn't topped 3.5 sacks 1 time. In 2006. Without Dunlap, our pass rush is god awful.
Despite all that, Weeden showed potential by being able to dissect our secondary.

Richardson is a monster in the open field. For a guy so big he is absolutely way too shifty.

Hughes looks like a steal

Ok, we'll take Geno Atkins;

bantx
09-19-2012, 11:59 AM
Reyes is beasting. Looks bad for Corey Liuget that Reyes is a far better player at this point. Both Reyes and Ingram were perfect fits for Pagano's scheme. Mike Harris seemed to struggle a little bit more than he did last week, but did an serviceable job. Ladarius Green had a nice 31 yard catch and run although it should have been called back due to an illegal screen from Eddie Royal. Still haven't seen much from Brandon Taylor since Atari Bigby seems to be doing well at SS.


Reyes is a monster, I really like Luiget too he'll still get worked in the rotation though. We have a solid young DL which is promising for our future, something that we've been lacking in the past few years.

Cardsfan
09-21-2012, 11:11 AM
Bobby Massie could very well be the steal of the draft. He should of

been a second round pick. The Cards may have finally found a

quality tackle. Jammell Fleming our third rounder also looked good

against the Pats. Nothing from Floyd yet but I think he will start to

contribute towards the end of the year

J-Spot
09-21-2012, 12:44 PM
Luke Kuechly looked pretty bad last night.

Before the 2012 draft, people were wondering if Carolina should pick a DT like Michael Brockers or Fletcher Cox, and I think in retrospect, they made the wrong decision.

Even if Kuechly was playing well, a pass-rushing DT is more important in today's NFL than an ILB. But Kuechly simply hasn't shown the ability to get off blocks or diagnose plays in the NFL.

cmarq83
09-21-2012, 12:45 PM
Luke Kuechly looked pretty bad last night.

Before the 2012 draft, people were wondering if Carolina should pick a DT like Michael Brockers or Fletcher Cox, and I think in retrospect, they made the wrong decision.

Even if Kuechly was playing well, a pass-rushing DT is more important in today's NFL than an ILB. But Kuechly simply hasn't shown the ability to get off blocks or diagnose plays in the NFL.

Did you watch the game last night? Kuechly was fine, he sniffed out a few plays despite getting zero protection from the guys in front of him.

J-Spot
09-21-2012, 12:51 PM
Did you watch the game last night? Kuechly was fine, he sniffed out a few plays despite getting zero protection from the guys in front of him.

He was bad in pass coverage and made too many tackles downfield.

"despite zero protection from the guys in front of him"... that's the point. DL sort of make the ILB, and not vice versa. I don't think we're talking about Patrick Willis and Navarro Bowman quite as often if they don't play behind that beastly DL with Justin Smith and Ray McDonald.

The Panthers should have gone DL with their first round pick and then spent their 2nd rounder on one of the ILBs like Mychal Kendricks or Bobby Wagner.

tjsunstein
09-21-2012, 12:52 PM
I thought Kuechly was one of the less terrible players on the d last night.

tjsunstein
09-21-2012, 12:54 PM
The Panthers should have gone DL with their first round pick and then spent their 2nd rounder on one of the ILBs like Mychal Kendricks or Bobby Wagner.

This is all in hindsight but no one argued Kuechly/Silatolu at the time.

scottyboy
09-21-2012, 12:54 PM
Hosley looked really good last night, which is awesome

J-Spot
09-21-2012, 12:56 PM
This is all in hindsight but no one argued Kuechly/Silatolu at the time.

Alot of draftniks were debating whether Carolina should go DT with their first round pick or not. Carolina's DTs were terrible in 2011 and continue to be so.

In fact, I think most mock drafts had Carolina picking Michael Brockers or Fletcher Cox with their pick.

Bengals78
09-21-2012, 12:56 PM
I was a little shocked they went LB over DL.
But I wanted Kuechly bad so....

cmarq83
09-21-2012, 01:11 PM
He was bad in pass coverage and made too many tackles downfield.

"despite zero protection from the guys in front of him"... that's the point. DL sort of make the ILB, and not vice versa. I don't think we're talking about Patrick Willis and Navarro Bowman quite as often if they don't play behind that beastly DL with Justin Smith and Ray McDonald.

The Panthers should have gone DL with their first round pick and then spent their 2nd rounder on one of the ILBs like Mychal Kendricks or Bobby Wagner.

He wasn't bad in pass coverage because the Panthers inexplicably take him out in their nickel set, he sniffed out a screen for a negative play, and made saving tackles down the field from the opposite side of the play, that's hardly considered a negative.

A couple of years down the line Kuechly will be a better overall player than Cox and Brockers, and hopefully the Panthers can address their DL in the interim, but you go with the best available players instead of drafting for need.

J-Spot
09-21-2012, 01:20 PM
He wasn't bad in pass coverage because the Panthers inexplicably take him out in their nickel set, he sniffed out a screen for a negative play, and made saving tackles down the field from the opposite side of the play, that's hardly considered a negative.


They take him out of the nickel because he can't cover all that well.


A couple of years down the line Kuechly will be a better overall player than Cox and Brockers, and hopefully the Panthers can address their DL in the interim, but you go with the best available players instead of drafting for need.

I wouldn't be so sure that Kuechly will even be a better LB than Cox or Brockers will be DTs.

It's also alot harder to acquire good DTs (especially ones that can pass-rush) than it is to acquire good ILBs. (through free agency or the draft)

cmarq83
09-21-2012, 02:04 PM
They take him out of the nickel because he can't cover all that well.



I wouldn't be so sure that Kuechly will even be a better LB than Cox or Brockers will be DTs.

It's also alot harder to acquire good DTs (especially ones that can pass-rush) than it is to acquire good ILBs. (through free agency or the draft)

That first statement is blatantly false, maybe the coaches feel more comfortable with Beason and Anderson because they're veterans, but Kuechly was an outstanding pass coverage LB in college and played well in that area in camp and preseason. There has been nothing that he has done so far in the NFL that would suggest that he doesn't cover all that well.

As to your second point meh, look at a division like the AFC East Kyle Love, Sione Pouha, Kyle Williams, and Paul Soliai were all picked later than the 3rd round, and all of them are above average DT's. Geno Atkins was a 4th round pick a couple of years ago, and pass rushing specialists like Crick and Wolfe lasted past the 1st round this season. Even some quality DT's have hit the market in the past few years like Red Bryant, Jason Jones, Kendall Langford, Barry Cofield, and Cullen Jenkins. The Panthers have had their chance to grab some of them, and just because they didn't address it with their first round pick this year doesn't mean that they missed out on their only opportunity to add a quality DT.

Kuechly was a safer and probably going to turn out as a great pick. Cox and Brockers are much bigger risks, and had they been on the field last night instead of Kuechly the outcome most likely would have been exactly the same.

Ghost of Juice
09-21-2012, 02:16 PM
Yeah I thought Kuechly was one of the only decent players for the Panthers D last night. Beason looked awful.

J-Spot
09-21-2012, 05:23 PM
That first statement is blatantly false, maybe the coaches feel more comfortable with Beason and Anderson because they're veterans, but Kuechly was an outstanding pass coverage LB in college and played well in that area in camp and preseason. There has been nothing that he has done so far in the NFL that would suggest that he doesn't cover all that well.


Just because he was a good pass coverage LB in college doesn't mean he will be one in the NFL.

And for the record, I thought he was a very overrated pass coverage LB at Boston College. I saw him getting beaten time and again by TEs and WRs in zone coverage.



As to your second point meh, look at a division like the AFC East Kyle Love, Sione Pouha, Kyle Williams, and Paul Soliai were all picked later than the 3rd round, and all of them are above average DT's. Geno Atkins was a 4th round pick a couple of years ago, and pass rushing specialists like Crick and Wolfe lasted past the 1st round this season. Even some quality DT's have hit the market in the past few years like Red Bryant, Jason Jones, Kendall Langford, Barry Cofield, and Cullen Jenkins. The Panthers have had their chance to grab some of them, and just because they didn't address it with their first round pick this year doesn't mean that they missed out on their only opportunity to add a quality DT.


Look at the elite pass rushers (DT, DE, or OLB) in the NFL today:

- Jason Pierre Paul: #15 pick in 2010 draft
- Justin Smith: #4 pick in 2001 draft
- Ndamukong Suh: #2 pick in 2010 draft
- Calais Campbell: #50 pick in 2008 draft
- Chris Long: #2 pick in 2008 draft
- JJ Watt: #11 pick in 2011 draft
- Clay Matthews: #26 pick in 2009 draft
- Brian Orakpo: #13 pick in 2009 draft
- Lamarr Woodley: #46 pick in 2007 draft
- Jason Babin: #27 pick in 2004 draft
- Aldon Smith: #7 pick in 2011 draft
- Dwight Freeney: #11 pick in 2002 draft
- Von Miller: #2 pick in 2011 draft
- Ryan Kerrigan: #16 pick in 2011 draft
- Haloti Ngata: #12 pick in 2006 draft
- DeMarcus Ware: #11 pick in 2005 draft
- Terrell Suggs: #10 pick in 2003 draft
- Julius Peppers: #2 pick in 2002 draft


I feel pretty confident in calling that list a mostly complete list of all of the NFL's best pass rushing DTs, DEs, or OLBs. Do you see something in common there? The vast majority were selected very high in the draft. Only four of those players I listed were picked outside of the top 16. To acquire elite pass-rushing talent, you simply have to pick one of the guys with a high draft pick. If you do have that high draft pick, it makes sense to spend it on a more valuable, harder-to-obtain position (DT, DE, 34 OLB) than a less valuable, easier to obtain position (ILB). Because you might not have that opportunity to select the elite pass rusher again. Those beastly Pierre-Paul / Ngata / Ware types don't come around very often, and when you have the *opportunity* to grab one, you had better take advantage of it.



Kuechly was a safer and probably going to turn out as a great pick. Cox and Brockers are much bigger risks, and had they been on the field last night instead of Kuechly the outcome most likely would have been exactly the same.

Maybe the outcome is the same, maybe it's not as bad. But in the end, a good DT/DE is always more valuable, and harder to find, than a good LB. In the long run, the right choice in the 1st round is almost always the defensive lineman, even if the DL pick is not always the safest, because the payout is always better.

K Train
09-21-2012, 05:43 PM
james harrison is still a top pass rusher, and hes still better than woodley. Just throwin out a quick homer shout out there though lol, the james harrisons and adalius thomas's of the world are the exception

you also left jared allen off, hes a big one and was a 4th rounder. Id say trent cole too, 5th rounder, tamba hali 20th overall...just to add to your list a bit

To acquire elite pass-rushing talent, you simply have to pick one of the guys with a high draft pick. If you do have that high draft pick, it makes sense to spend it on a more valuable, harder-to-obtain position (DT, DE, 34 OLB)

you also dont want to end up with jamaal anderson, derrick harvey, justin harrell, gaines adams (RIP), kentwan balmer...ect. if a tough thing to project, those guys were all top notch recent prospects as well

cmarq83
09-21-2012, 05:56 PM
Just because he was a good pass coverage LB in college doesn't mean he will be one in the NFL.

And for the record, I thought he was a very overrated pass coverage LB at Boston College. I saw him getting beaten time and again by TEs and WRs in zone coverage.


You need to start actually watching games because the above is not true, as is your point that Kuechly played poorly last night.




Look at the elite pass rushers (DT, DE, or OLB) in the NFL today:

- Jason Pierre Paul: #15 pick in 2010 draft
- Justin Smith: #4 pick in 2001 draft
- Ndamukong Suh: #2 pick in 2010 draft
- Calais Campbell: #50 pick in 2008 draft
- Chris Long: #2 pick in 2008 draft
- JJ Watt: #11 pick in 2011 draft
- Clay Matthews: #26 pick in 2009 draft
- Brian Orakpo: #13 pick in 2009 draft
- Lamarr Woodley: #46 pick in 2007 draft
- Jason Babin: #27 pick in 2004 draft
- Aldon Smith: #7 pick in 2011 draft
- Dwight Freeney: #11 pick in 2002 draft
- Von Miller: #2 pick in 2011 draft
- Ryan Kerrigan: #16 pick in 2011 draft
- Haloti Ngata: #12 pick in 2006 draft
- DeMarcus Ware: #11 pick in 2005 draft
- Terrell Suggs: #10 pick in 2003 draft
- Julius Peppers: #2 pick in 2002 draft


I feel pretty confident in calling that list a mostly complete list of all of the NFL's best pass rushing DTs, DEs, or OLBs. Do you see something in common there? The vast majority were selected very high in the draft. Only four of those players I listed were picked outside of the top 16. To acquire elite pass-rushing talent, you simply have to pick one of the guys with a high draft pick. If you do have that high draft pick, it makes sense to spend it on a more valuable, harder-to-obtain position (DT, DE, 34 OLB) than a less valuable, easier to obtain position (ILB). Because you might not have that opportunity to select the elite pass rusher again. Those beastly Pierre-Paul / Ngata / Ware types don't come around very often, and when you have the *opportunity* to grab one, you had better take advantage of it.



Again we weren't debating any of those caliber rushers when we were talking about the 2 DT's. Out of the 2 we were talking about only one projects as being a consistent impact pass rusher. Certainly Fletcher Cox and Michael Brockers were not the equivalent pass rushing prospects as the majority of those guys were. Try to stay on point.

I could make a similar list showing all the best LB's being high picks (Lewis, Urlacher, Mayo, Derrick Johnson, Willis, Cushing, Timmons) it's a pointless exercise because that's how it is with every position. For every Bowman or Lee there is an Allen or Cole as a counter example.

Every position is relative on the field to the other positions around them, How good did the Eagles look last year with a great DL and CB's, but their linebackers and safeties still sucked? We like to put a premium on certain positions, but again those positions by themselves can't affect the totality of a defense. In reality if you draft a LBer with All Pro potential with a high pick, it's likely going to be a net positive when it's all said and done when teams solidify the weak spots around them.

You're bitter because it's obvious you wanted the Panthers to pick a DL, and they didn't so it's still a weakness. It still shouldn't affect the way you evaluate Kuechly because of it. Kuechly played well last night.

J-Spot
09-21-2012, 06:06 PM
You need to start actually watching games because the above is not true, as is your point that Kuechly played poorly last night.



I watched the game. He was not playing well by any stretch of the imagination.


Again we weren't debating any of those caliber rushers to those guys we were talking about 2 DT's and out of the 2 we were talking about only one projects as being a consistent impact pass rusher. Certainly Fletcher Cox and Michael Brockers were not the equivalent pass rushing prospects as the majority of those guys were. Try to stay on point.


Actually, Cox was rated the top pass-rushing DT in this draft class, and given high marks by almost all of the draft analysts. He could certainly develop into a top-10 pass rushing DT in the NFL, and that was the consensus among analysts.

Brockers was considered more of a developmental guy but a high-ceiling pick nonetheless. And with DL, it's all about the ceiling. You're gambling on high reward. Whereas with LB, there is more safety invovled, but an elite ILB will never impact your defense as much as an elite pass rusher will.




I could make a similar list showing all the best LB's being high picks (Lewis, Urlacher, Mayo, Derrick Johnson, Willis, Cushing, Timmons) it's a pointless exercise because that's how it is with every position. For every Bowman or Lee there is an Allen or Cole as a counter example.


Question: if you had to choose, would you rather have Brian Urlacher or Julius Peppers?

Jerod Mayo or Vince Wilfork?

Patrick Willis or Justin Smith?

JJ Watt or Brian Cushing?

I can tell you what the General Managers of those teams would say. They'd pick the stud pass rusher over the ILB every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Remember last year when Larry Grant filled in for Patrick Willis and the defense didn't skip a beat?

On the other hand, if you remember correctly, one of the reasons Lovie Smith flew to Carolina with millions of dollars in his briefcase to personally court Julius Peppers at the start of free agency in 2010 was because despite those great LBs the Bears had, their Cover-2 defense sucked without elite pass rushers. From 2007-2009, their DL were all mediocre, and despite having Lance Briggs and Brian Urlacher (Urlacher missed '09 but played in 07 and 08), they weren't an elite defense again until they got Julius Peppers.


Every position is relative on the field to the other positions around them, How good did the Eagles look last year with a great DL and CB's, but their DL and secondary still sucked? We like to put a premium on certain positions, but again those positions by themselves can't affect the totality of a defense. In reality if you draft a LBer with All Pro potential with a high pick, it's likely going to be a net positive when it's all said and done when teams solidify the weak spots around them.


The problem with the Eagles last year isn't that they had average LBs, but that they were basically using complete scrubs. Of course you can't have flat-out incompetent scrubs manning the position. But you can fill in those LB spots with "average" players and as long as you have an elite DL, you can have a top-10 defense.

For an example, look at the New York Giants. Who do they have at LB? That DL does all the work and they can plug guys in like Chase Blackburn, who was a schoolteacher before he was signed by the Giants.


The #1 problem with selecting an ILB in the first round is that you are *passing* on the opportunity to obtain elite DL talent - talent that would be next to impossible to get outside of that first round of the draft. Sure, that DL talent could bust, and the ILB might be safer, but in the end, unless you have elite DL talent, you will never have a top-10 defense. So you have to get it somehow. You have to gamble on that risk in the first round. You can make all the safe LB picks you want, but then you just end up with a great LB corps and a mostly average defense.

J-Spot
09-21-2012, 06:09 PM
james harrison is still a top pass rusher, and hes still better than woodley. Just throwin out a quick homer shout out there though lol, the james harrisons and adalius thomas's of the world are the exception

you also left jared allen off, hes a big one and was a 4th rounder. Id say trent cole too, 5th rounder, tamba hali 20th overall...just to add to your list a bit



you also dont want to end up with jamaal anderson, derrick harvey, justin harrell, gaines adams (RIP), kentwan balmer...ect. if a tough thing to project, those guys were all top notch recent prospects as well

Sure you can draft busts, but you gotta take a risk to get something in return.

If you don't pick a DL with your first round pick, and only stick to "safe" picks, you will never get that Jason Pierre Paul, or JJ Watt, or Aldon Smith, unless you get lucky and wait until one of those guys hits free agency, and then you have to spend a ton of cash on him, and that's AFTER you have successfully convinced him to join your team (Julius Peppers / Reggie White / Justin Smith).

And if you don't have elite DL, you are simply not having a top-10 defense. It's not happening. It's a necessary evil to "gamble" on these guys in the first round.

Bengals78
09-21-2012, 06:24 PM
JJ Watt was super safe.
He was practically a lock

cmarq83
09-22-2012, 01:10 PM
Actually, Cox was rated the top pass-rushing DT in this draft class, and given high marks by almost all of the draft analysts. He could certainly develop into a top-10 pass rushing DT in the NFL, and that was the consensus among analysts.

Brockers was considered more of a developmental guy but a high-ceiling pick nonetheless. And with DL, it's all about the ceiling. You're gambling on high reward. Whereas with LB, there is more safety invovled, but an elite ILB will never impact your defense as much as an elite pass rusher will.


I'm well aware of what they were viewed as around draft time. This is a draft website isn't it?

The point is Kuechly was/is an outstanding linebacker prospect, probably the best since Willis. Cox and Brockers were not equivalent DT prospects, and certainly were not the same kind of prospects a lot of the guys on your list were. I will never fault teams for picking a quality player with a high pick regardless of position (besides the obvious positions). If you look across the league at successful teams most of them have vastly different rosters with plenty of quality at the "less" important positions, and the only real requirement is that you have a franchise QB.

Do you think the 49ers front office kicks themselves because they picked Willis when they could have gambled a bit more and had Revis? Probably not. However, how do you think the Texans and the Falcons feel after reaching for pass rushers Amobi Akoye and Jamaal Anderson before the much safer and now perennial all pro Willis?

Brockers is incredibly raw and Cox is completely washed out any time he is doubled. They represented a far more significant risk. Now if the scouting department was comfortable with them after reviewing their film, seeing how they would fit in their scheme, and gave them a high grade then fine, by all means pick them. I'm not trying to make this an indictment on Brockers or Cox, both of whom I was hoping would fall to the Pats. However, the notion of drafting somebody high just for the sake of the position they play is moronic. That is how disasters like Everette Brown, Jimmy Clausen, and Armanti Edwards happen.

That's why the draft doesn't go QB, QB, QB, QB, QB, QB, DE, DE, DE, DE, DE, DE, LT, LT, LT, LT, LT, LT, CB, CB, CB, CB, CB, CB ect.

Every position plays a role in winning games, and preferably you try to get as many good guys to fit all those positions as possible. It's by reaching for guys and missing on picks that creates massive holes like the Panthers have at DT. The best way to avoid that is by picking guys who are extremely likely to be good when you have the opportunity to get them.




Question: if you had to choose, would you rather have Brian Urlacher or Julius Peppers?

Jerod Mayo or Vince Wilfork?

Patrick Willis or Justin Smith?

JJ Watt or Brian Cushing?

I can tell you what the General Managers of those teams would say. They'd pick the stud pass rusher over the ILB every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Remember last year when Larry Grant filled in for Patrick Willis and the defense didn't skip a beat?

On the other hand, if you remember correctly, one of the reasons Lovie Smith flew to Carolina with millions of dollars in his briefcase to personally court Julius Peppers at the start of free agency in 2010 was because despite those great LBs the Bears had, their Cover-2 defense sucked without elite pass rushers. From 2007-2009, their DL were all mediocre, and despite having Lance Briggs and Brian Urlacher (Urlacher missed '09 but played in 07 and 08), they weren't an elite defense again until they got Julius Peppers.


What a pointless argument. That's not the choice that you make in the draft, or anything like what the Panthers faced last year. Yes obviously a pass rusher can make a more direct impact on winning games if you have an all pro at the position vs. an all pro at MLB, but that isn't the crux of the debate.

The question is if the Panthers should pass a MLB prospect who they obviously believed in, who has great instincts, tools, and demeanor for the position for rawer DT prospects who they felt less confident in because they could potentially yield a higher return in the future? I say no way they should pass on the guy their confident in. Yes, there is the risk they could miss out on the next Ngata or Suh, but if Kuechly is good then they're still getting plenty of benefit out of the pick.

As to your point about Willis and Grant, what about when Mario Williams went down last year and the Texans had the best defensive season in team history? Isn't citing examples without context fun?



The problem with the Eagles last year isn't that they had average LBs, but that they were basically using complete scrubs. Of course you can't have flat-out incompetent scrubs manning the position. But you can fill in those LB spots with "average" players and as long as you have an elite DL, you can have a top-10 defense.

For an example, look at the New York Giants. Who do they have at LB? That DL does all the work and they can plug guys in like Chase Blackburn, who was a schoolteacher before he was signed by the Giants.


The #1 problem with selecting an ILB in the first round is that you are *passing* on the opportunity to obtain elite DL talent - talent that would be next to impossible to get outside of that first round of the draft. Sure, that DL talent could bust, and the ILB might be safer, but in the end, unless you have elite DL talent, you will never have a top-10 defense. So you have to get it somehow. You have to gamble on that risk in the first round. You can make all the safe LB picks you want, but then you just end up with a great LB corps and a mostly average defense.

Again there are plenty of examples of teams getting by without high pass rusher picks. The Pats made it to the Superbowl last year getting 27 sacks from 3 guys they signed for next to nothing off the street. The Denver and Detroit defenses still suck despite having elite pass rushing talent. Nothing is set in stone. Quality defenses generally have good players at all 3 levels.

Finally, this idea that quality DL talent is only available at the very top of the draft is false.

Mathis
Cole
Allen
Wake
Clemons
Avril
Tuck
Johnson
Osi

Dockett
Atkins
Rubin
Knighton
K. Williams
Pouha
Bryant
Garay

That's pretty much just off the top of my head. DL is a distribution just like any other position in the NFL. Even some of the high round guys you mentioned like Babin and Smith were found in free agency and really didn't deliver the elite pass rush returns to the teams that drafted them.

It's possible to find talent elsewhere in the draft , so it's not required that you pick it in the first round because DE is a premium position. I think people obsess about value too much around here, and most GM's won't pass up on a player they feel good about because it's not a premium position.

J-Spot
09-22-2012, 11:46 PM
I'm well aware of what they were viewed as around draft time. This is a draft website isn't it?

The point is Kuechly was/is an outstanding linebacker prospect, probably the best since Willis. Cox and Brockers were not equivalent DT prospects, and certainly were not the same kind of prospects a lot of the guys on your list were. I will never fault teams for picking a quality player with a high pick regardless of position (besides the obvious positions). If you look across the league at successful teams most of them have vastly different rosters with plenty of quality at the "less" important positions, and the only real requirement is that you have a franchise QB.


Picking "best player available" is a sound strategy in the first round *except* for a number of positions that simply do not have a high level of value in the NFL anymore, and/or are easily replaced by late round draft picks or free agent signings: RB, FB, OG, 4-3 OLB, ILB, and obviously K and P.

If you look across the league at the successful playoff teams, and even more so at the Super Bowl teams of the past decade, what you see is not elite talent at RB or ILB positions, but elite talent more predominantly found among the DL, OL, WR, and DB positions, alongside an elite QB, obviously. Look at the 2011 Giants, the 2010 Packers, the 2009 Saints, the 2008 Steelers and on and on. Few of those teams invested much in the RB position prior to their Super Bowl runs, and few of those teams invested much in their ILB, or had high draft picks playing ILB that played at a replacement level quality (AJ Hawk for instance) and that could have been swapped out for free agents or late round draft picks.


Do you think the 49ers front office kicks themselves because they picked Willis when they could have gambled a bit more and had Revis? Probably not. However, how do you think the Texans and the Falcons feel after reaching for pass rushers Amobi Akoye and Jamaal Anderson before the much safer and now perennial all pro Willis?


Willis is maybe the only example of an non-pass-rushing LB taken high that wasn't a complete waste of a draft pick. And even in Willis' case, I wonder whether or not another ILB without an elite pedigree could look just as good playing behind the 49ers dominant defensive line.

Of course if you gamble on DL, busts like Akoye and Anderson will occur. But you can also get big-time hits like Kevin Williams, Ndamokong Suh, Haloti Ngata, Justin Smith, etc.

Can you name me another non-pass-rushing LB picked in the first round of the draft of the past 10 years besides Patrick Willis that was worthy of that first round pick?


Brockers is incredibly raw and Cox is completely washed out any time he is doubled. They represented a far more significant risk. Now if the scouting department was comfortable with them after reviewing their film, seeing how they would fit in their scheme, and gave them a high grade then fine, by all means pick them. I'm not trying to make this an indictment on Brockers or Cox, both of whom I was hoping would fall to the Pats. However, the notion of drafting somebody high just for the sake of the position they play is moronic. That is how disasters like Everette Brown, Jimmy Clausen, and Armanti Edwards happen.


Just because Jimmy Claussen/Everette Brown/Armanti Edwards were tremendous reaches, that doesn't mean that you should stop prioritizing certain positions. It just means that the terrible GM of the Panthers (the incompetent Marty Hurney) attached a level of value to those prospects that was simply unfounded.



That's why the draft doesn't go QB, QB, QB, QB, QB, QB, DE, DE, DE, DE, DE, DE, LT, LT, LT, LT, LT, LT, CB, CB, CB, CB, CB, CB ect.


It actually would be better for some teams if they did stick these positions in the first round. We'd see far less teams absolutely wasting their precious first round draft picks on low-value positions such as RB and LB, and then fewer elite teams in the later rounds would take advantage of their folly to grab all of these steals that keep them at the top of the NFL.



Every position plays a role in winning games, and preferably you try to get as many good guys to fit all those positions as possible. It's by reaching for guys and missing on picks that creates massive holes like the Panthers have at DT. The best way to avoid that is by picking guys who are extremely likely to be good when you have the opportunity to get them.


What you're describing is this mentality: "because you were burnt by a bad DL pick in the past, we should avoid drafting them in the future and instead pick safer positions like LB, even if the potential reward (Elite LB) is not as high as the potential reward with the former (elite DL)."

This is a losing mentality. You are being too risk-adverse and in the end, all that you end up with is a mediocre roster lacking impact talent at the most important positions of the team. What good does an elite LB do you if you only have an average defensive line?

If you never take a gamble on DL prospects high in the draft, your chances of having an elite DL are extremely slim. You might get lucky signing a guy like Cameron Wake, but in all likelihood, you won't. There's a reason teams with elite defensive lines such as the Giants are mostly entirely home-grown.



What a pointless argument. That's not the choice that you make in the draft, or anything like what the Panthers faced last year. Yes obviously a pass rusher can make a more direct impact on winning games if you have an all pro at the position vs. an all pro at MLB, but that isn't the crux of the debate.

The question is if the Panthers should pass a MLB prospect who they obviously believed in, who has great instincts, tools, and demeanor for the position for rawer DT prospects who they felt less confident in because they could potentially yield a higher return in the future? I say no way they should pass on the guy their confident in. Yes, there is the risk they could miss out on the next Ngata or Suh, but if Kuechly is good then they're still getting plenty of benefit out of the pick.


What benefit are you getting out of the pick *even* if Kuechly turns into an elite LB (which isn't a given by any means at this point)?

You are getting a guy that makes alot of stops and tackles in the run game, and even that ability is pretty highly dependent on the play of the defensive line in front of him. If he is sitting behind a bunch of mediocre DL who are letting the OL flood the second level, it doesn't matter how good his play-recognition or tackling abilities are, because his team is getting gashed regardless.

And even if Kuechly turns into a tackling machine and improves their run stopping ability, what does that matter if they can't stop the passing game? Stopping the running game is almost immaterial in the NFL. It's a side-benefit of having a good defense. If you can't stop the passing game, nothing else matters because QBs are torching you for 350 yards / 3 TDs a pop. If they had instead picked a pass rusher like Chandler Jones or Fletcher Cox (who both have played very well so far in the NFL), maybe Eli Manning doesn't have all day in the pocket to read the newspaper, brew coffee, and pick the Panthers defense apart? How is Luke Kuechly going to stop guys like Eli Manning from picking the Panthers pass defense apart? What does it matter if you get a tackling machine MLB if you can't stop QBs???

Maybe Kuechly can cover as well. Let's just assume that. If the QB isn't being pressured up front, however, it DOESN'T MATTER. He'll have all day, go through his reads, ignore Kuechly's coverage, and pick on some poor DB forced to cover on the outside for too long.


As to your point about Willis and Grant, what about when Mario Williams went down last year and the Texans had the best defensive season in team history? Isn't citing examples without context fun?


The Texans could afford to lose Mario Williams because they picked another elite DL in the draft - JJ Watt.




Again there are plenty of examples of teams getting by without high pass rusher picks. The Pats made it to the Superbowl last year getting 27 sacks from 3 guys they signed for next to nothing off the street. The Denver and Detroit defenses still suck despite having elite pass rushing talent. Nothing is set in stone. Quality defenses generally have good players at all 3 levels.


The Pats were a fluke last year and probably shouldn't even have been in that game as the Ravens and Texans (with elite pass rushers) would have been in the Super Bowl had it not been for Schaub's injury (Texans) and Flacco's WRs/Ks crapping the bed(Ravens). Look at the history of the Super Bowl and give me another example of a team without elite DL that won. Please. Hell, Bill Belichick even agrees that he was basically a fluke without elite pass rushers - he finally drafted Chandler Jones in the first round.

And yes, you can have a mediocre defense with good pass rushers. That usually happens if you have bad DBs. I consider drafting quality DBs the second main priority in the first round of the draft. LBs, however, have little to nothing to do with an elite pass defense. To field an elite defense, you need elite DL and then a quality secondary to back them. You can usually fill in the rest with average players and still have an elite defense.



Finally, this idea that quality DL talent is only available at the very top of the draft is false.

Mathis
Cole
Allen
Wake
Clemons
Avril
Tuck
Johnson
Osi

Dockett
Atkins
Rubin
Knighton
K. Williams
Pouha
Bryant
Garay

That's pretty much just off the top of my head. DL is a distribution just like any other position in the NFL. Even some of the high round guys you mentioned like Babin and Smith were found in free agency and really didn't deliver the elite pass rush returns to the teams that drafted them.


Where are the cream-of-the-crop elite pass rushers on that list? Terrance Knighton? Ahtyba Rubin? Cliff Avril? Charles Johnson? Trent Cole? Come on. These guys mostly all clear second-tier guys in the NFL.

I like my list better:

- Jason Pierre Paul: #15 pick in 2010 draft
- Justin Smith: #4 pick in 2001 draft
- Ndamukong Suh: #2 pick in 2010 draft
- Calais Campbell: #50 pick in 2008 draft
- Chris Long: #2 pick in 2008 draft
- JJ Watt: #11 pick in 2011 draft
- Clay Matthews: #26 pick in 2009 draft
- Brian Orakpo: #13 pick in 2009 draft
- Lamarr Woodley: #46 pick in 2007 draft
- Jason Babin: #27 pick in 2004 draft
- Aldon Smith: #7 pick in 2011 draft
- Dwight Freeney: #11 pick in 2002 draft
- Von Miller: #2 pick in 2011 draft
- Ryan Kerrigan: #16 pick in 2011 draft
- Haloti Ngata: #12 pick in 2006 draft
- DeMarcus Ware: #11 pick in 2005 draft
- Terrell Suggs: #10 pick in 2003 draft
- Julius Peppers: #2 pick in 2002 draft

If you poll any general manager or coach, or player or even fan, they'll tell you 99 out of 100 times that my list is a better representation of who is truly the elite of the pass rushers in the NFL. Your list is just a bunch of try-hard lunch pail fill-in-the-d-line guys who are more complimentary pieces than anything else. My list is the A-plus gems that you can build a defense around. The kind of guys that you need if you want to be elite on defense in the NFL (the Steelers, the Ravens, the 49ers, the Giants, the Bears, etc).




It's possible to find talent elsewhere in the draft , so it's not required that you pick it in the first round because DE is a premium position. I think people obsess about value too much around here, and most GM's won't pass up on a player they feel good about because it's not a premium position.


Smart GMs prioritize QB, DL, DB, OT, WR in that order above all else. Look at Jerry Reese of the Giants, who does an outstanding job (until recently - the David Wilson pick was a big, uncharacteristic mistake for the man and will cost the team imho):

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/draft.htm

Not a single RB or LB taken in the first round since the year 2000 (prior to the David Wilson mistake). And I bet the Giants wish they could have gone with someone other than RB Ron Dayne that year as well.

Remember the 2010 draft? How everyone was saying that the Giants needed to pick Rolando McClain because MLB was a gaping hole in their defense? They instead went for DL pass rush prospect Jason Pierre Paul after the Raiders picked McClain higher in the first round, and I think we now know who made the right decision now.

crossroads
09-23-2012, 12:37 AM
The Panthers are a fairly talent barren team, especially on defense. It's completely understand, and justifiable, for them to take kuechly in the first round if they felt that he was a superior talent to the other players on the board.

Just because elite pass-rushers do have a bigger impact on the game, that doesn't mean that you have to completely prioritize defensive linemen over all other defensive positions in the draft. Could the Panthers have taken Cox or Brockers instead of Kuechly? Sure. But maybe they just weren't very high on either one of them, or felt they weren't good fits. Or maybe they just feel that strongly about Kuechly's ability to play at an all-pro level, and hold him in such high regard that they felt it was more prudent to draft him over a position that may be of more importance.

Besides, it's not like linebackers (even ones who aren't pass-rushers) can't have a huge impact on the game. As has been said already in this thread, the scouting report on Kuechly coming out was that he was fantastic in coverage. The Bears have shown us for years now that having two linebackers who excel in coverage can pretty much take away the middle of the field, which is a pretty big advantage for the defense.

You also asked which other non pass-rushing linebackers have been taken in the first round that have been worth that pick? How about Sean Weatherspoon who's been pretty outstanding for the Falcons the last couple seasons. Or Brian Cushing, who is one of the best players on a dominant Texans defense. Or Jon Beason who, until his injury last year, had been playing at an all-pro level for awhile.

Now, is it easier to find elite pass-rushing talent in the first round? Yeah, probably. But to be fair, you can make that argument for any position. If a players being picked in the first round, it likely means that they are expected to be pretty good at their job. That doesn't mean you can't find good players in other rounds as well. Look at the Broncos, for example. They have two very good pass rushers, one who was a first round pick and the other was taken in the fourth round. There's talent available in every round of every draft at every position, you just have to have a front office good enough to identify it, and coaches able enough to develop that talent.

AntoinCD
09-23-2012, 07:26 AM
Where are the cream-of-the-crop elite pass rushers on that list? Terrance Knighton? Ahtyba Rubin? Cliff Avril? Charles Johnson? Trent Cole? Come on. These guys mostly all clear second-tier guys in the NFL.

I like my list better:

- Jason Pierre Paul: #15 pick in 2010 draft
- Justin Smith: #4 pick in 2001 draft
- Ndamukong Suh: #2 pick in 2010 draft
- Calais Campbell: #50 pick in 2008 draft
- Chris Long: #2 pick in 2008 draft
- JJ Watt: #11 pick in 2011 draft
- Clay Matthews: #26 pick in 2009 draft
- Brian Orakpo: #13 pick in 2009 draft
- Lamarr Woodley: #46 pick in 2007 draft
- Jason Babin: #27 pick in 2004 draft
- Aldon Smith: #7 pick in 2011 draft
- Dwight Freeney: #11 pick in 2002 draft
- Von Miller: #2 pick in 2011 draft
- Ryan Kerrigan: #16 pick in 2011 draft
- Haloti Ngata: #12 pick in 2006 draft
- DeMarcus Ware: #11 pick in 2005 draft
- Terrell Suggs: #10 pick in 2003 draft
- Julius Peppers: #2 pick in 2002 draft

If you poll any general manager or coach, or player or even fan, they'll tell you 99 out of 100 times that my list is a better representation of who is truly the elite of the pass rushers in the NFL. Your list is just a bunch of try-hard lunch pail fill-in-the-d-line guys who are more complimentary pieces than anything else. My list is the A-plus gems that you can build a defense around. The kind of guys that you need if you want to be elite on defense in the NFL (the Steelers, the Ravens, the 49ers, the Giants, the Bears, etc).




So what...you're just going to flat out ignore Jared Allen who has been one of the best and most consistent pass rushers of the last decade and a possible/probable HOFer?

Or Robert Mathis who is a multiple pro bowler?

Or Justin Tuck or Osi?

Or Cameron Wake?

It's easy to pick a few of the lesser guys from the list and say well my guys who were drafted in the top ten are better. I would also like to politefully disagree that Trent Cole is a lunch pail fill in the d-line kind of guy.

And comparing later round guys to first rounders is a ridiculous arguement. It works for every single position, not simply pass rushers.

This is how the draft works, teams choose players in 7 rounds. Most teams almost seem to pick the higher rated players in the earlier rounds for some reason, regardless of positional value. It seems weird to me when I think about it. I mean take last year for example. Trent Richardson went 3rd overall. But he's a RB, clearly he would have been available in the fifth round.

It doesn't work like that. The one position in the NFL that trumps anything else is QB.

You brought up teams like NYG and NE as examples in the draft, however what both of those teams, and the Packers included do in the draft, is draft for value. This year excluded for NE, they don't go out with one or two positions to address per round, but instead they take the best player on their board.

If you target specific "needs" in the draft a lot of time you end up with a lesser talented team than one who drafts BPA.

Say my team has a hole at LT and DE, however their board currently looks like this

#1 WR
#2 CB
#3 CB
#4 DT
#5 ILB
#6 WR
#7 OG
#8 S
#9 RB
#10 LT

If I am filling my "pressing need" then, if I trust my scouting department I am doing a bad job because I have taken the tenth best player available on the board, which in turn makes higher rated players fall to my rivals.

Needs change every year. You can get players after the first round. The chances of them being elite diminish every round, however that doesn't mean they can't be serviceable. If I can get a better player in the first it leaves me more room for manouevering later in the draft to target specific needs

FUNBUNCHER
09-23-2012, 08:01 AM
The Panthers thought Kuechly was on par with Brian Urlacher as a linebacker prospect. In this case I think it was a BPA selection.
Sometimes a team has to take the best player still on their board.

Kuechly wasn't the reason the Panthers got rolled by the Giants.

BTW, Kuechly covered like a safety in college and if he ever got beat it was because of read mistake made by him, not because he was flat out beaten by the man he was covering.

cmarq83
09-23-2012, 03:36 PM
Picking "best player available" is a sound strategy in the first round *except* for a number of positions that simply do not have a high level of value in the NFL anymore, and/or are easily replaced by late round draft picks or free agent signings: RB, FB, OG, 4-3 OLB, ILB, and obviously K and P.

If you look across the league at the successful playoff teams, and even more so at the Super Bowl teams of the past decade, what you see is not elite talent at RB or ILB positions, but elite talent more predominantly found among the DL, OL, WR, and DB positions, alongside an elite QB, obviously. Look at the 2011 Giants, the 2010 Packers, the 2009 Saints, the 2008 Steelers and on and on. Few of those teams invested much in the RB position prior to their Super Bowl runs, and few of those teams invested much in their ILB, or had high draft picks playing ILB that played at a replacement level quality (AJ Hawk for instance) and that could have been swapped out for free agents or late round draft picks.


Many of the teams that have won a Superbowl in the past decade haven't had JAG's at the LB position though. Yes, the Giants and the Packers didn't have elite linebackers, but if you look at those rosters there is pretty much talent everywhere else including HOF QB's. It's easy to say well team x didn't have dominant linebackers so it must mean that they aren't important, but there are literally dozens of more prominent factors that explain those team's success.

The Saints and Steelers didn't have scrubs at Linebacker unless you consider Vilma, Farrior, Timmons, and Fujita scrubs. Even the Giants have had guys like Boley and Pierce during their runs. The best part of the Patriot's defense in their SB years was their Linebackers. The fact that you think that Linebackers are completely homogenous and replaceable shows a clear lack of football understanding. Coaches value linebackers, that's why you see guys like Willis, Washington, Laurinitis, Mayo, Timmons, and Harris all got huge extensions. If you have somebody who can control the middle of the field against TE's and backs, diagnose a run play and shoot gaps, and chase down running backs trying to turn the corner you have a valuable commodity to any defense. You get a 3 down player who can contribute in any down or distance. Even when the Pats lost Mayo for a few games and had to replace him with a decent backup like Dane Fletcher you can see the difference.



Willis is maybe the only example of an non-pass-rushing LB taken high that wasn't a complete waste of a draft pick. And even in Willis' case, I wonder whether or not another ILB without an elite pedigree could look just as good playing behind the 49ers dominant defensive line.

Of course if you gamble on DL, busts like Akoye and Anderson will occur. But you can also get big-time hits like Kevin Williams, Ndamokong Suh, Haloti Ngata, Justin Smith, etc.

Can you name me another non-pass-rushing LB picked in the first round of the draft of the past 10 years besides Patrick Willis that was worthy of that first round pick?


This is absurd. There are plenty of guys who were picked in the first round who weren't complete "waste" of picks.

Mayo
Greenway
Cushing
Beason
Timmons
DJ

All those guys are or have been pro bowl quality players.

There are plenty of other guys who haven't been wastes either.


What you're describing is this mentality: "because you were burnt by a bad DL pick in the past, we should avoid drafting them in the future and instead pick safer positions like LB, even if the potential reward (Elite LB) is not as high as the potential reward with the former (elite DL)."

This is a losing mentality. You are being too risk-adverse and in the end, all that you end up with is a mediocre roster lacking impact talent at the most important positions of the team. What good does an elite LB do you if you only have an average defensive line?

If you never take a gamble on DL prospects high in the draft, your chances of having an elite DL are extremely slim. You might get lucky signing a guy like Cameron Wake, but in all likelihood, you won't. There's a reason teams with elite defensive lines such as the Giants are mostly entirely home-grown.



That's not what I'm describing in the slightest. I'm saying that you should pick the guy who you have a higher grade on. The fact that you can't differentiate that point is pathetic. You don't pick a player on the sole basis that they play a position that is a premium position.

What benefit are you getting out of the pick *even* if Kuechly turns into an elite LB (which isn't a given by any means at this point)?

You are getting a guy that makes alot of stops and tackles in the run game, and even that ability is pretty highly dependent on the play of the defensive line in front of him. If he is sitting behind a bunch of mediocre DL who are letting the OL flood the second level, it doesn't matter how good his play-recognition or tackling abilities are, because his team is getting gashed regardless.

And even if Kuechly turns into a tackling machine and improves their run stopping ability, what does that matter if they can't stop the passing game? Stopping the running game is almost immaterial in the NFL. It's a side-benefit of having a good defense. If you can't stop the passing game, nothing else matters because QBs are torching you for 350 yards / 3 TDs a pop. If they had instead picked a pass rusher like Chandler Jones or Fletcher Cox (who both have played very well so far in the NFL), maybe Eli Manning doesn't have all day in the pocket to read the newspaper, brew coffee, and pick the Panthers defense apart? How is Luke Kuechly going to stop guys like Eli Manning from picking the Panthers pass defense apart? What does it matter if you get a tackling machine MLB if you can't stop QBs???

Maybe Kuechly can cover as well. Let's just assume that. If the QB isn't being pressured up front, however, it DOESN'T MATTER. He'll have all day, go through his reads, ignore Kuechly's coverage, and pick on some poor DB forced to cover on the outside for too long.


The problem with the Eagles last year isn't that they had average LBs, but that they were basically using complete scrubs. Of course you can't have flat-out incompetent scrubs manning the position. But you can fill in those LB spots with "average" players and as long as you have an elite DL, you can have a top-10 defense.

For an example, look at the New York Giants. Who do they have at LB? That DL does all the work and they can plug guys in like Chase Blackburn, who was a schoolteacher before he was signed by the Giants.


I'm going to disregard your statement that 40% of the game is immaterial. It's not worth addressing.

You're undermining your own points with ones like this. You said a few posts ago that the Eagles defense didn't live up to their potential last year because they had terrible linebackers. Well the Panthers have terrible Defensive tackles. What happens if they go grab some decent ones in free agency next year? Maybe they get some guys who can occupy some blockers to free up Kuechly to make some plays.

You can't have it both ways.

Also, the Giants paid good money to Kiwi and Boley. If you ask most Giants fans what their biggest weakness was, they would say their Mike Linebacker. It's not like the Giants have exactly lit it up on defense either, they played very well in the playoffs, but they finished 28th last year. If they didn't have a HOF QB they wouldn't have made the playoffs, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The Texans could afford to lose Mario Williams because they picked another elite DL in the draft - JJ Watt.


:facepalm: Does the name NoVorro Bowman mean anything to you? It's the exact same point in reverse.

The Pats were a fluke last year and probably shouldn't even have been in that game as the Ravens and Texans (with elite pass rushers) would have been in the Super Bowl had it not been for Schaub's injury (Texans) and Flacco's WRs/Ks crapping the bed(Ravens). Look at the history of the Super Bowl and give me another example of a team without elite DL that won. Please. Hell, Bill Belichick even agrees that he was basically a fluke without elite pass rushers - he finally drafted Chandler Jones in the first round.

And yes, you can have a mediocre defense with good pass rushers. That usually happens if you have bad DBs. I consider drafting quality DBs the second main priority in the first round of the draft. LBs, however, have little to nothing to do with an elite pass defense. To field an elite defense, you need elite DL and then a quality secondary to back them. You can usually fill in the rest with average players and still have an elite defense.


So the number 1 seed getting to the Super Bowl is a fluke? I guess what happened to the 49ers was just a collection of heady plays plays by the Giants :njx: We can go back to that running game not being important point. The Pats limited the damage that the Ravens best offensive player did, so they were forced to throw to the seldom used Lee Evans instead of going with an established play maker. It's not like Evans drop was egregious either. It was a legitimate pass breakup.

Plenty of Super Bowl teams haven't had elite D-lines. Pats, Saints, Cardinals, and Seahawks are all recent examples.

BB drafted Chandler Jones because he had a high grade on him. He has the most stringent standards in terms of being a 2 way player for pass rushers which is why they haven't drafted many. Again I'm not saying that D-lineman aren't important, but blindly drafting them based on position is stupid.

There aren't any elite defenses without good linebackers. None. In fact about half of the top defenses from last year didn't have any of your "elite" high round pass rushers on them. Browns, Seahawks, Titans, Bengals, and Jacksonville, so it can be done.

Where are the cream-of-the-crop elite pass rushers on that list? Terrance Knighton? Ahtyba Rubin? Cliff Avril? Charles Johnson? Trent Cole? Come on. These guys mostly all clear second-tier guys in the NFL.

I like my list better:

- Jason Pierre Paul: #15 pick in 2010 draft
- Justin Smith: #4 pick in 2001 draft
- Ndamukong Suh: #2 pick in 2010 draft
- Calais Campbell: #50 pick in 2008 draft
- Chris Long: #2 pick in 2008 draft
- JJ Watt: #11 pick in 2011 draft
- Clay Matthews: #26 pick in 2009 draft
- Brian Orakpo: #13 pick in 2009 draft
- Lamarr Woodley: #46 pick in 2007 draft
- Jason Babin: #27 pick in 2004 draft
- Aldon Smith: #7 pick in 2011 draft
- Dwight Freeney: #11 pick in 2002 draft
- Von Miller: #2 pick in 2011 draft
- Ryan Kerrigan: #16 pick in 2011 draft
- Haloti Ngata: #12 pick in 2006 draft
- DeMarcus Ware: #11 pick in 2005 draft
- Terrell Suggs: #10 pick in 2003 draft
- Julius Peppers: #2 pick in 2002 draft

If you poll any general manager or coach, or player or even fan, they'll tell you 99 out of 100 times that my list is a better representation of who is truly the elite of the pass rushers in the NFL. Your list is just a bunch of try-hard lunch pail fill-in-the-d-line guys who are more complimentary pieces than anything else. My list is the A-plus gems that you can build a defense around. The kind of guys that you need if you want to be elite on defense in the NFL (the Steelers, the Ravens, the 49ers, the Giants, the Bears, etc).

See AntoinCD's post for the counter to this.


Smart GMs prioritize QB, DL, DB, OT, WR in that order above all else. Look at Jerry Reese of the Giants, who does an outstanding job (until recently - the David Wilson pick was a big, uncharacteristic mistake for the man and will cost the team imho):

http://www.pro-football-reference.co.../nyg/draft.htm

Not a single RB or LB taken in the first round since the year 2000 (prior to the David Wilson mistake). And I bet the Giants wish they could have gone with someone other than RB Ron Dayne that year as well.

Remember the 2010 draft? How everyone was saying that the Giants needed to pick Rolando McClain because MLB was a gaping hole in their defense? They instead went for DL pass rush prospect Jason Pierre Paul after the Raiders picked McClain higher in the first round, and I think we now know who made the right decision now.

The best GM's prioritize BPA. They build teams by getting the best guys and playing to their strengths. It's not about the positions, the Giants got JPP because he fit well into their system, they had confidence int their coaches to develop him, and he was the BPA in their opinion, so they took him even though they didn't have a need there. That is what you have to do. It's the same way if you're considering a Linebacker, Guard, or whatever.

J-Spot
09-23-2012, 04:52 PM
Many of the teams that have won a Superbowl in the past decade haven't had JAG's at the LB position though. Yes, the Giants and the Packers didn't have elite linebackers, but if you look at those rosters there is pretty much talent everywhere else including HOF QB's. It's easy to say well team x didn't have dominant linebackers so it must mean that they aren't important, but there are literally dozens of more prominent factors that explain those team's success.


How hard is it to understand this? The vast majority of Super Bowl teams did not have elite linebackers. Clearly, then, linebacker is not necessary.

Less than like 5% of Super Bowls have been won by teams without elite QBs and elite DL. Clearly, then, the reverse is true for those positions.



The Saints and Steelers didn't have scrubs at Linebacker unless you consider Vilma, Farrior, Timmons, and Fujita scrubs. Even the Giants have had guys like Boley and Pierce during their runs. The best part of the Patriot's defense in their SB years was their Linebackers. The fact that you think that Linebackers are completely homogenous and replaceable shows a clear lack of football understanding. Coaches value linebackers, that's why you see guys like Willis, Washington, Laurinitis, Mayo, Timmons, and Harris all got huge extensions. If you have somebody who can control the middle of the field against TE's and backs, diagnose a run play and shoot gaps, and chase down running backs trying to turn the corner you have a valuable commodity to any defense. You get a 3 down player who can contribute in any down or distance. Even when the Pats lost Mayo for a few games and had to replace him with a decent backup like Dane Fletcher you can see the difference.


Maybe those LBers weren't "scrubs" per se, but they were either free agents or late round draft picks. The point here is that the team did not have to expend high draft resources to acquire these players and could just sign one and plug and play him.

Just because a team gives a certain player a huge extension doesn't mean that it is a smart investment, no, does it? Look at the money being spent on running backs. It's almost all flushed down the toilet.


This is absurd. There are plenty of guys who were picked in the first round who weren't complete "waste" of picks.

Mayo
Greenway
Cushing
Beason
Timmons
DJ

All those guys are or have been pro bowl quality players.

There are plenty of other guys who haven't been wastes either.


Ok, rather that valuing a player by the ridiculous notion of "Pro Bowl" caliber, how about we take a look at the actual defenses those players played on and see whether they were worthwhile?

- Chad Greenway has played on one of the worst defenses of the NFL the past two years. The last time they were good was in 2009 when the had the Williams wall in their prime. Since the decline of their defensive line, they've sucked, despite the presence of Greenway. Hmmmm. What is more important to the Vikings in this case?

- Jerod Mayo has played on one of the worst defenses in the NFL for the past three years. Maybe if Belichick had drafted a pass rusher instead of Mayo with that first round pick, his defense wouldn't have ranked in the bottom 10 the past three years in nearly ever category.

- Brian Cushing played on one of the worst defenses in the league from 2009-2010 until they finally signed some competent DBs and drafted some pass rushers. The defense is magically better, with or without Cushing.

- Jon Beason has played on one of the worst defenses in the NFL the past few years as well after the loss of Julius Peppers to free agency. He looks to be playing on one of the worst yet again this year. If the Panthers had instead invested in DBs and DL instead of Beason, and signed random free agent LBers instead of drafting them highly, maybe they wouldn't be a terrible defense right now.



That's not what I'm describing in the slightest. I'm saying that you should pick the guy who you have a higher grade on. The fact that you can't differentiate that point is pathetic. You don't pick a player on the sole basis that they play a position that is a premium position.


Actually, smart GMs do prioritize certain positions over others. A guy like Jerry Reese, for instance, would never draft a LB high, even if that LB had an extremely high grade.

The fact of the matter is that even a merely "good" pass rushing DL is probably more valuable to your team than an elite ILB.






I'm going to disregard your statement that 40% of the game is immaterial. It's not worth addressing.


Because you can't formulate any kind of argument that refutes that statement. It's the truth. The NFL is all about the passing game. The team that has the most efficient passing game on offense usually has the best offense. The team with the most efficient passing defense usually has the best defense.


You're undermining your own points with ones like this. You said a few posts ago that the Eagles defense didn't live up to their potential last year because they had terrible linebackers. Well the Panthers have terrible Defensive tackles. What happens if they go grab some decent ones in free agency next year? Maybe they get some guys who can occupy some blockers to free up Kuechly to make some plays.


The Eagles defense actually struggled because they couldn't get off the field on 3rd down in passing situations. The Nnamdi Asomugha signing was one of the worst signings in a long time, as the CB is very overrated. And couple that with terrible scheming by coaches (such as using Rodgers-Cromartie as a slot corner) meant that it was actually the passing defense that let the team down, and not even the linebackers, who were pretty bad however.

And the point I've been making throughout is that it simply is not as *easy* to sign quality DTs in free agency as it is to sign a decent LB in free agency. The Panthers will have a very hard time doing so. It's easier to *draft* the DL and then just sign the ILB.



You can't have it both ways.

Also, the Giants paid good money to Kiwi and Boley. If you ask most Giants fans what their biggest weakness was, they would say their Mike Linebacker. It's not like the Giants have exactly lit it up on defense either, they played very well in the playoffs, but they finished 28th last year. If they didn't have a HOF QB they wouldn't have made the playoffs, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.


Points scored by NYG opponents in last six games of the 2011 season (including playoffs): 14, 14, 2, 20, 17, 17.

If they don't have that defense firing on all cylinders with their pass rushers and their DBs (Webster and Ross in particular), we wouldn't be having this discussion.




:facepalm: Does the name NoVorro Bowman mean anything to you? It's the exact same point in reverse.


Bowman doesn't affect the passing game as much as a pass rusher would, however.


So the number 1 seed getting to the Super Bowl is a fluke? I guess what happened to the 49ers was just a collection of heady plays plays by the Giants :njx: We can go back to that running game not being important point. The Pats limited the damage that the Ravens best offensive player did, so they were forced to throw to the seldom used Lee Evans instead of going with an established play maker. It's not like Evans drop was egregious either. It was a legitimate pass breakup.


Flacco played well enough to win that game. Evans should have caught that. If you can't see that, then I question your football acumen.



Plenty of Super Bowl teams haven't had elite D-lines. Pats, Saints, Cardinals, and Seahawks are all recent examples.


Saints had Will Smith playing at a high level during their Super Bowl run. The Cardinals had some nice play from Dockett during their run.

Did any of those teams besides the Saints actually win a Super Bowl?



BB drafted Chandler Jones because he had a high grade on him. He has the most stringent standards in terms of being a 2 way player for pass rushers which is why they haven't drafted many. Again I'm not saying that D-lineman aren't important, but blindly drafting them based on position is stupid.


You don't think he had a high grade on other pass rushers in the past? He simply didn't prioritize them, and finally realized the errors of his ways.


There aren't any elite defenses without good linebackers. None. In fact about half of the top defenses from last year didn't have any of your "elite" high round pass rushers on them. Browns, Seahawks, Titans, Bengals, and Jacksonville, so it can be done.


Browns, Bengals, Seahawks and Titans were elite defenses? Really?

Again, this is correlation vs. causation. An elite defense may have good linebackers on it, but does that mean the linebacker is causing it to be elite? No. It's the DBs and the DL that cause that defense to be elite.




The best GM's prioritize BPA. They build teams by getting the best guys and playing to their strengths. It's not about the positions, the Giants got JPP because he fit well into their system, they had confidence int their coaches to develop him, and he was the BPA in their opinion, so they took him even though they didn't have a need there. That is what you have to do. It's the same way if you're considering a Linebacker, Guard, or whatever.[/QUOTE]

J-Spot
09-23-2012, 05:00 PM
So what...you're just going to flat out ignore Jared Allen who has been one of the best and most consistent pass rushers of the last decade and a possible/probable HOFer?

Or Robert Mathis who is a multiple pro bowler?

Or Justin Tuck or Osi?

Or Cameron Wake?

It's easy to pick a few of the lesser guys from the list and say well my guys who were drafted in the top ten are better. I would also like to politefully disagree that Trent Cole is a lunch pail fill in the d-line kind of guy.


Those guys are mostly complimentary players. Mathis, Tuck, Cole - are they the best pass rushers on their teams are or they support rushers?



And comparing later round guys to first rounders is a ridiculous arguement. It works for every single position, not simply pass rushers.


It is more applicable to pass rushers than other positions, however. Elite pass rush talent often stands out in terms of physical ability and college production. Some of those players slip through the cracks (like Jared Allen) but that is a rare occurance that cannot be counted on.

With linebackers, however, it is far easier to find one of those guys that can produce for you in later rounds.



This is how the draft works, teams choose players in 7 rounds. Most teams almost seem to pick the higher rated players in the earlier rounds for some reason, regardless of positional value. It seems weird to me when I think about it. I mean take last year for example. Trent Richardson went 3rd overall. But he's a RB, clearly he would have been available in the fifth round.


And that was a dumb pick by the Browns front office that further reinforces the fact that they're one of the worst franchises in the league.


Just because teams still draft LBers and RBs in the first round doesn't mean that it's smart. It just means that there are alot of dumb front offices in the NFL.


It doesn't work like that. The one position in the NFL that trumps anything else is QB.


It works like this:

QB is far and away the most important. But the #2 priority by far is stopping the *opposing* quarterback. How do you do that? With pass rushers first and foremost, and then DBs (coverage safeties and cornerbacks).

After that, you have WRs and TEs and OL that help your own quarterback, and then after that you have everything else.



You brought up teams like NYG and NE as examples in the draft, however what both of those teams, and the Packers included do in the draft, is draft for value. This year excluded for NE, they don't go out with one or two positions to address per round, but instead they take the best player on their board.


They go after the best player available but *also* simultaneously weigh certain positions more highly than others.

For example, the Giants went for a pass rusher over a linebacker many times in the past 10 years of the draft, even if a linebacker prospect was on the board.


If you target specific "needs" in the draft a lot of time you end up with a lesser talented team than one who drafts BPA.


It's not about blindly filling "needs".

It's about drafting BPA but *weighing* certain positions more highly. You have to give precedence to QB, then pass rusher, than CB/FS/WR/OL/TE. Every draft has quality at those positions, and if you don't have a highly rated pass rusher on the board, then you simply move down the ladder to CB, then FS, then WR, then OL, then TE and only then do you consider the LB prospect.



Say my team has a hole at LT and DE, however their board currently looks like this

#1 WR
#2 CB
#3 CB
#4 DT
#5 ILB
#6 WR
#7 OG
#8 S
#9 RB
#10 LT

If I am filling my "pressing need" then, if I trust my scouting department I am doing a bad job because I have taken the tenth best player available on the board, which in turn makes higher rated players fall to my rivals.


No, you don't draft for need. That's bad. Can you differentiate that from what I'm saying? Clearly the OT and DE prospect are not great in that situation, so you go for your WR or CB, but you don't reach for a LB either.

Bengals78
09-23-2012, 05:11 PM
Mo Sanu - Sexy beast. Sexy. Sexy. Sexy.
Marvin Jones - Didn't dress.
Iloka - Solid day on ST.
Zeitler - still looking good at RG.
Thompson - inactive
Still - so so today. Had a few good pressures but RG3 burned us on them.

bigbluedefense
09-23-2012, 05:12 PM
This is a stupid argument. First and foremost, any position will have more talent drafted in the 1st round vs later rounds. That's why they're first round picks, they're generally more talented.

Also, Keuchly wasn't your typical LB prospect. Yes, there are good LBs to be had later, but not 6 4" 250 lb LBs who run a 4.5 with elite tackling ability, instincts, and coverage ability. Those prospects come around once every 5 years. He's the best ILB prospect since Patrick Willis. And ask Falcon fans if they made the right call drafting Jamal Anderson over Patrick Willis.

The bottom line is you draft talent, not position. If he's the best player on your board, take him. LBs still have a place in this league. They defend the middle of the field.

And with the 2 TE set becoming more popular, you need LBs like Keuchly.

You draft the highest rated player on your board. Regardless of position. When youre a team that lacks talent, the whole point of the draft is to maximize that talent. So going bpa is the way to go, bc they wind up filling needs anyway.

If he was BPA, and by my estimation he was, he's a good pick. The only position that warrants consideration over BPA is qb. There is more than one way to skin a cat, as long as you have a franchise qb, the objective is to fill the rest of your roster with the best available talent.

Leon Sandcastle
09-23-2012, 07:01 PM
Cordy Glenn is the new Marcus McNeil. #77 could make the Pro Bowl like McNeil did in his rookie season.

J-Spot
09-23-2012, 08:21 PM
This is a stupid argument. First and foremost, any position will have more talent drafted in the 1st round vs later rounds. That's why they're first round picks, they're generally more talented.

Also, Keuchly wasn't your typical LB prospect. Yes, there are good LBs to be had later, but not 6 4" 250 lb LBs who run a 4.5 with elite tackling ability, instincts, and coverage ability. Those prospects come around once every 5 years. He's the best ILB prospect since Patrick Willis. And ask Falcon fans if they made the right call drafting Jamal Anderson over Patrick Willis.


LB prospects with elite measurables don't matter. All that matters is how much a player affects the passing game. Even the most athletic LB, especially a 4-3 LB, will rarely affect the passing game as often as a DL or DB.

Ask Giants fans if drafting Jason Pierre Paul over Rolando McClain (if he dropped, or trade-up) or Brandon Spikes was the right call.


The bottom line is you draft talent, not position. If he's the best player on your board, take him. LBs still have a place in this league. They defend the middle of the field.


If you have a FB on your board ranked very highly, do you take him over a FS that's ranked highly but not as highly?

Some positions are simply not as important as others.


And with the 2 TE set becoming more popular, you need LBs like Keuchly.

You draft the highest rated player on your board. Regardless of position. When youre a team that lacks talent, the whole point of the draft is to maximize that talent. So going bpa is the way to go, bc they wind up filling needs anyway.

If he was BPA, and by my estimation he was, he's a good pick. The only position that warrants consideration over BPA is qb. There is more than one way to skin a cat, as long as you have a franchise qb, the objective is to fill the rest of your roster with the best available talent.

Just because you have a BPA philosophy wrt drafting players doesn't mean you can't prioritize certain positions over others, given similar levels of talent (like a very good DL prospect vs. an elite LB prospect).

bigbluedefense
09-23-2012, 08:35 PM
LB prospects with elite measurables don't matter. All that matters is how much a player affects the passing game. Even the most athletic LB, especially a 4-3 LB, will rarely affect the passing game as often as a DL or DB.

Ask Giants fans if drafting Jason Pierre Paul over Rolando McClain (if he dropped, or trade-up) or Brandon Spikes was the right call.



If you have a FB on your board ranked very highly, do you take him over a FS that's ranked highly but not as highly?

Some positions are simply not as important as others.



Just because you have a BPA philosophy wrt drafting players doesn't mean you can't prioritize certain positions over others, given similar levels of talent (like a very good DL prospect vs. an elite LB prospect).

3 down linebackers are priceless in today's NFL. With no huddle offenses using versatile 2 TEs becoming more popular, it's increasingly difficult for defenses to move into sub packages with specialized coverage LBs and not lose a lot in run defense. Having a Luke Keuchly who can play all 3 downs and cover TEs while also being a hammer vs the run, that's priceless. Linebackers aren't valuable if they are specialized players, ie nickel LBs or run thumpers who get subbed out. But an elite 3 down LB is just as valuable as a DLmen.

JPP wasn't better than McClain bc he's a DE. JPP was the better pick bc he was the better player. If he was a mediocre DE and McClain was the next Ray Lewis, then he'd clearly be the better pick. That's the point you're missing. It's about the talent of the individual.

Of course some positions deserve more weight than others, but you don't take a DLmen over a LB just bc its a more valuable position.

For example, what DL would you want them to take at 9 overall that was worth it over Luke? Brockers? He's a 2 down run stuffing DL, he offers no pass rush at all. That's not a valuable commodity in today's NFL, even if he is a DLmen.

Cox? Ok maybe, but the bust rate of DTs is high, and Luke is just a much higher rated player.

What about DBs? Gilmore? He's not even close to rated as high as Luke. Barron? Already off the board. Clairborne was off the board. The DEs available weren't valued at 9 overall.

He was the right pick. They got a 3 down LB who can do everything. Will never come off the field. That's worth the pick.

J-Spot
09-23-2012, 09:02 PM
3 down linebackers are priceless in today's NFL. With no huddle offenses using versatile 2 TEs becoming more popular, it's increasingly difficult for defenses to move into sub packages with specialized coverage LBs and not lose a lot in run defense. Having a Luke Keuchly who can play all 3 downs and cover TEs while also being a hammer vs the run, that's priceless. Linebackers aren't valuable if they are specialized players, ie nickel LBs or run thumpers who get subbed out. But an elite 3 down LB is just as valuable as a DLmen.


The target might be different, but the passing game still begins and ends with the QB sitting in the pocket. What can a defense do to affect that? Why, with a pass rush. A pass rusher is always more valuable than anyone else on the defense for that reason - he can affect the passing game from the very start of the play.

Even a 3-down LB is not even remotely as important as a pass rusher. The only way a 3-down LB will affect the passing game is in coverage on the TE or RB, and then only sparingly, as the passing game is *still* primarily about the QB throwing to WRs. Yes, the TE might be more involved in the passing game now, but he is still less important a focus of the offense than the WR.



JPP wasn't better than McClain bc he's a DE. JPP was the better pick bc he was the better player. If he was a mediocre DE and McClain was the next Ray Lewis, then he'd clearly be the better pick. That's the point you're missing. It's about the talent of the individual.


Bit of revisionist history here?

JPP was widely considered a very raw prospect with little college production. He was seen as a big risk as a first round prospect. In fact, I remember several members of the Giants sub-board on this forum actively cursing the Giants for selecting JPP. I'm sure you can dig up the old 2010 draft thread in the Giants section and find a couple of good quotes like "Oh please no, please no don't select Pierre Paul, anybody but Pierre Paul"

Rolando McClain, on the other hand, was a favorite among Giants fans leading up to the 2010 draft. He was seen as a sure-fire stud ILB who played at a high level for Nick Saban's championship team in 2009.


Of course some positions deserve more weight than others, but you don't take a DLmen over a LB just bc its a more valuable position.


If you're a smart GM, you'll do just that.


For example, what DL would you want them to take at 9 overall that was worth it over Luke? Brockers? He's a 2 down run stuffing DL, he offers no pass rush at all. That's not a valuable commodity in today's NFL, even if he is a DLmen.

Cox? Ok maybe, but the bust rate of DTs is high, and Luke is just a much higher rated player.


I'd have taken Brockers, Coples, Chandler Jones, Cox, or even Ingram over Kuechly. Sure, they might bust, but at least you're trying to get an impact DL.

Kuechly is technically "Safer" but even he's not a lock to be a 3-down impact LB. And even if he is, again, you could have gotten 80-85% of that production out of a random free agent / late round pick. It's hard to get that ratio of production out of random free agent / late round pick DEs and DTs.


What about DBs? Gilmore? He's not even close to rated as high as Luke. Barron? Already off the board. Clairborne was off the board. The DEs available weren't valued at 9 overall.


Chandler Jones, Melvin Ingram and Quinton Coples were high-rated pass rushers. Maybe lower-rated DEs than Kuechly was rated as a LB, but not much more, and clearly more important from a positional standpoint.


He was the right pick. They got a 3 down LB who can do everything. Will never come off the field. That's worth the pick.

Again, it's not guaranteed. I have not liked what I've seen from him so far, and then, even if he does develop into that 3 down LB, guess what? If they can't get a pass rush, it simply won't matter because they're going to get torched by QBs anyway.

J-Spot
09-23-2012, 09:39 PM
Some interesting quotes from Giants fans on this forum leading up to the 2010 NFL draft:


Its never too early. List some guys you have your eyes on.


As of right now, my main man is Brandon Spikes to play MIKE for us.


I like Rolando McClain as a potential MIKE for us.



What we really need is a stud linebacker. I know Boley could be that guy, but in this scheme, the stud you need in the LB core should be the MIKE position.

While Brandon Spikes has his stock in the top 15 range as of right now, I could see him slipping. I think he'd be perfect for us.


As of right now, offensive line depth, and MIKE are our highest priorities.


I like McClain a lot. As #10 said he's exactly the type of player that would fit in well with us. It's still way too early to see which way we might go though.

I wouldn't mind if we got Spikes or Mcclain.


I forgot to mention this, but Brandon Spikes looked studly against LSU.

He'd look good in Giant blue.


After Brandon Spikes suspension (what a terrible thing to do btw, he shouldve gotten more than a half game suspension), I hope he falls in this draft.

He's still a beast, and my favorite ILB prospect. Right now he's #1 on my target list.


Some names of guys that I can realistically be available to us currently that I would be interested in.

I'm not saying these are the only guys that id like, just that ive seen em and like what they have to offer, and wouldnt mind them in Giant blue.

Brandon Spikes - ILB
Nate Allen - Safety
Sean Weatherspoon - OLB/ILB
Jermaine Gresham - TE
Earl Thomas - Safety


I'd love for us to trade up for McClain. He's been one of my favorite players to watch all years.


MIKE, DT, Safety, Center.

I wouldn't mind any of those positions in the 1st. If we do have a top 15 pick, then I want us to move up and nab Rolando McClain. He's the next Patrick Willis.


If we're going to roll with Goff or Kehl, then they MUST start at some point this season. We can't go into the offseason blind about what we have in them. Gotta see what they can do before that.

If they don't get any snaps, then you have to assume that we need a MIKE. At the end of the day, they were 4th and 5th round picks. A MIKE like Brandon Spikes would do wonders for this defense.

Especially since AP can't shed a bock, and has been taking horrible angles this year. The few times Ive gotten to see some endzone cam on tv or whatever, every time AP looked god awful against the run.

So MIKE is a huge need. We don't know if we have the answer in house. Why gamble?

I'm a big Derrick Morgan fan. But I doubt he'd last to the 20s. He's a pick in the teens, and at that point, I'm definitely not thinking about DE.


i wouldn't mind trading the farm for McClain. He's the next Patrick Willis.

We can nab a safety in the mid rounds, or even in FA. we don't need a stud safety, just a solid SS who can support the run and provide decent pass coverage.

Worst case scenario KP's career is done, Johnson is very solid at FS, but we need a SS to compliment him.

We can find that in various ways.

A stud MIKE is hard to find. 2 guys I really like are McClain (obviously), and Brandon Spikes.


Brandon Spikes is more realistic.

yeah i won't be surprised if mcclain is a top 7 pick by the time the draft comes around.

he's a freak athlete, smart, productive, he's basically Patrick Willis.

he'll go very high.

well, i realize that 3-4 NT's with his talent dont come around very often, but weight issues (much more than Glen Dorsey's were), knee injuries, there's a possiblity he might drop. On many draft sites he's ranked 3rd or 4th of DT's and in the teens on average of value.

Rolando has had a hard life, i can forgive his character concerns, but god damn he's a player. He needs to be on our team, i dont care if we need to trade a future 1st, he's worth it IMO.

Plan: Trade away Kiwi w/ future second and fourth to Miami (3-4 team), net around a 15-20 1st rounder. Use other picks as ammo likely use up 4th this year.

*1a. Rolando McClain MLB - become MLB eventually
*1b. Terrence Cody NT - Run stuffing, double team eating monster
2. Ciron Black OT - cements our right OL as our RT in training
3. Reshad Jones S - (don't think he's worthy of the 1st-2nd round consideration) progressive learning while playing if kenny phillips is done.
5. Alterraun Verner CB - productive battle tested cb with potential
6. Stevenson Sylvester OLB/ST - explosive, plays with emotion, great athleticism.
7. BPA (best punter available)



As for our 1st round pick, if we're picking top 10, I think we have to get McClain. Its a no brainer to me. He's everything you want in a MIKE.

if we're picking 15-20, then things get trickier. bc McClain will be gone. Now who do you get? Do you go after Mays? I'm a Mays fan, but I'm starting to think he's overrated. And he plays undisciplined football.

Do we move back and collect picks? I think that would be ideal in that scenario. We need to nab a quality C and DT, and I would like to nab both in the 2nd round, and that is only possible if we move back in the first and collect a 2nd round pick.

That way, we can nab Brandon Spikes in the late 1st (who is sure to fall), and then nab our 2nd round DT and 2nd round C that we desperately need.


My top 5 big board at this point:
1. Rolando McClain
2. Earl Thomas
3. Greg Hardy
4. Taylor Mays
5. Brandon Spikes(if we trade down, would be a reach if we don't)




Id like 1 of 2 possibilities:

1. Move into the top 10 and get McClain
2. Move back to the late 20s, nab Dan Williams, then take our 2nd and whatever picks we got from moving back and move back into the early 2nd and nab Brandon Spikes


Just thinking about it now, McClain just makes so much sense.

Let's be real, our team was decimated by injuries. Our defense is NOT that bad. And of course our coordinator was a big problem as well.

Our secondary is fine, we just need a reliable SS. That can be had in round 2 and up. Or get Dawan Landry in FA. Or Atogwe. Boom, done. Our DEs are fine. They were all injured this year. Our OLBs are fine. Sintim will be solid at SAM, Boley is fine at WILL. Our CBs are beyond fine, I'll put our collective CB trio up against any in the league.

But what are we missing from defense?

We need a MIKE, have needed one for awhile now. We need leadership. We need run stuffers. We need a smart guy who can line guys up.

Sounds like we need Rolando McClain. He'll give us the smarts we need, the run stuffing presence in the middle we desperately need, and eventually the leadership we need. He'll finally give us a presence at LB.

Now obviously, McClain still needs some DTs in front of him. But thats ok, theres plenty of other rounds in the draft to nab one.



See, bigbluedefense, if you were the Giants GM right now, you'd have "filled" your MLB "need" with some guy like Brandon Spikes or Rolando McClain, and your defensive line would not nearly be as awesome with only older Osi and older Tuck as the main pass rush threats on there, and maybe the 2011 Giants don't even win the Super Bowl (scratch that, I *know* they don't win that Super Bowl without JPP doing elite stuff in the regular season and in postseason instead of just some guy like McClain or Spikes making tackles that anybody you bring off the street - read: CHASE BLACKBURN - can make).

FUNBUNCHER
09-23-2012, 09:40 PM
JPP was considered a risk being taken as a top 5 pick, not as a first rounder.
He was always a first round prospect, but many were against the hype he was getting as potentially one of the first defenders drafted in 2010.

Look at the SKins, they have a lot of average, workman like 5-tech DT/DEs. Most are okay against the run but none really offer much in terms of pass rush. Not a Ngata or Justin SMith in the entire bunch.

However, if you put a guy like Kuechly behind that unit, his diagnostic skills and coverage ability makes the Dline look disruptive.

It's ridiculous to argue you could have gotten much of Kuechly's production out of random FA/late round pick.
If you think Kuechly is a JAG, or that LBs are JAGs in general, say that.
All I know is, SF doesn't have JAGs at LB. Neither do the Texans.

It's true you can get good LBs outside of the top 100 picks, but if you always select players on the cheap you'll never acquire the talent needed to win long term in the NFL.

Kuechly deserved his draft position. When he finally starts fulltime, it will become obvious.

EDIT: You talk as if there was a pass rusher who should have been taken ahead of Kuechly at pick 9.

Who??

bigbluedefense
09-23-2012, 09:58 PM
Some interesting quotes from Giants fans on this forum leading up to the 2010 NFL draft:




See, bigbluedefense, if you were the Giants GM right now, you'd have "filled" your MLB "need" with some guy like Brandon Spikes or Rolando McClain, and your defensive line would not nearly be as awesome with only older Osi and older Tuck as the main pass rush threats on there, and maybe the 2011 Giants don't even win the Super Bowl (scratch that, I *know* they don't win that Super Bowl without JPP doing elite stuff in the regular season and in postseason instead of just some guy like McClain or Spikes making tackles that anybody you bring off the street - read: CHASE BLACKBURN - can make).

I appreciate you going back and looking up quotes from us to "prove" your point, but what you fail to do is notice how my stance changed on McClain leading up to the draft.

Just like any draftnik, my opinion on a player went from high, to low, to high, to in btw, to whatever by the time the draft came by. And while I was high on McClain at certain points, you'll see that I actually wound up rating Witherspoon higher than him, and soured on McClain. Not only that, but I made a thread in the NFL draft forum stating that Spikes was just as good as McClain.

And on top of that, leading up to the draft, I said I liked Brandon Graham and JPP. So taking certain quotes to make your point might look good on paper, you fail to show the entire picture of my opinion on the matter. Nor do you show my direct quotes after the draft when I was one of the few Giant fans on here who loved the pick.

These quotes are also unfair, because you don't know who you want in a draft until you see the draft unfold. The board changes as players go off the board. McClain was off the board before we even picked, so it's a moot point. He wasn't available.

BigBanger
09-24-2012, 06:36 AM
What I've taken away from some of the rookies so far...

Dont'a Hightower looked terrible against NE. This is the first week I watched the Patriots, but he showed no instincts and looked terribly slow. He allowed some gaping holes and made almost no effort to control his gap assignments.

Chandler Jones looked solid and flashed his talent here and there. Still too raw to make a consistent impact, but he has sneaky strength to go along with the great length. Solid against the run. Lots of upside there and with the type of work ethic and bloodlines... should be a borderline great player in the future.

Courtney Upshaw didn't look explosive in college and looks even slower in the NFL. He will have to refine his technique to become a good player. A power rusher only and he's been getting handled by average linemen. He doesn't have a lot of potential and he wont be a double digit sack guy on a year to year basis. Stout at the point and plays discpline, but he's limited.

Brandon Weeden looks... raw. He struggles to move in the pocket and is very immoble. I think that, and the fact that he stares down his recievers, will cause him the most problems early in his career. A little slow getting the ball out and seems to be holding onto it a pinch too long. Footwork needs to improve the most.

Trent Richardson is a beast. When he's in space he has done nothing but impress. His elusiveness has translated to the next level and he's an absolute stud.

Cordy Glenn looks like a LT. I can't believe it. Solid in both phases of the game. Made Tamba Hali look bad and hasn't allowed a sack.


I will add more later...

Thecollegedropout
09-24-2012, 12:15 PM
Jets Rooks:

DE Quinton Coples has played the best H.G. Wells Invisible Man quite well. Has done almost absolutely nothing in the first 3 games after a preseason. Very irritating. Don't know if its because he's a backup to Devito/Wilkerson/Pouha but its annoying because we have zero pressure on the opponents.

WR Stephen Hill after a brilliant game 1 has been awful games 2 and 3. Drops, poor route running and has offered nothing. Should not be starting at this point for us, he's strictly a No.3 target as of now. He hurt his hammy yesterday so hopefully all is well there. He's a raw project, we all know that and knew it when he came out of Ga Tech...just the inconsistency by him is annoying. Unacceptable for him to go catchless in back to back games.

LB Demario Davis has not stood out and I don't think has been on the field much if at all.

S Josh Bush key highlight was a special teams tackle and getting in the face of a Dolphin after a play on special teams.

Jets rookies have done nothing thus far.....

SuperMcGee
09-24-2012, 12:47 PM
I probably could have scored TJ Graham's touchdown, but it's nice to see him getting more involved. Did well to follow his block on a screen and pick up a 3rd-and-9 heading into the redzone. Don't know how much deep ball action we'll get to see from him, but he's a growing piece of the offense.

J-Spot
09-24-2012, 06:23 PM
I appreciate you going back and looking up quotes from us to "prove" your point, but what you fail to do is notice how my stance changed on McClain leading up to the draft.

Just like any draftnik, my opinion on a player went from high, to low, to high, to in btw, to whatever by the time the draft came by. And while I was high on McClain at certain points, you'll see that I actually wound up rating Witherspoon higher than him, and soured on McClain. Not only that, but I made a thread in the NFL draft forum stating that Spikes was just as good as McClain.

And on top of that, leading up to the draft, I said I liked Brandon Graham and JPP. So taking certain quotes to make your point might look good on paper, you fail to show the entire picture of my opinion on the matter. Nor do you show my direct quotes after the draft when I was one of the few Giant fans on here who loved the pick.

These quotes are also unfair, because you don't know who you want in a draft until you see the draft unfold. The board changes as players go off the board. McClain was off the board before we even picked, so it's a moot point. He wasn't available.


The point of this collection of quotes is simply to illustrate that you were over-prioritizing a position that, in the end, proved to be unnecessary in the Giants defensive system.

You were all set to pick a MLB in the first round, and not only that, but to *trade* up for him. The Giants wouldn't be nearly as good on defense if they had traded up for a McClain or a Spikes instead of selecting a DE (JPP) when they already had two good ones on the roster (Osi & Tuck).

themaninblack
09-24-2012, 07:36 PM
Zeitler seemed to struggle in the run game along with the rest of the line, though he did look good in pass pro save one play where he seemed to get caught off balance.

Sanuuu threw a deep ball to AJ on the first play of the game out of the wildcat that was a thing of beauty. Didn't see him do much aside from that but damn that dude's got an arm on him. Must've been at least 40 yards in the air. Wondered why Marvin Jones was inactive but that was answered rather quickly.

This was probably Devon Still's best game so far. He has a lot of athletic ability but he just needs to learn how to use leverage more consistently. Had some nice pressures and didn't look terrible in the run game either.

Finally got to see Orson Charles with a nice 20 yd catch. They should really start to use two TE sets more often and get that guy out deep. He may struggle with blocking right now but he is a hell of a receiver and we need to utilize that.

Vontaze Burfict also looked pretty good out there. Had a couple solid tackles while splitting time with Vincent Rey. Really wish they would move him to MLB and get rid of Maualuga but that probably won't happen. In only his second game at OLB in his life he looked he knew what was going on out there.

Armchair Scout
09-24-2012, 08:01 PM
Chandler Jones looks very good for the Patriots so far. He looked like a game-changer at times against the Cardinals with his pass rushing ability. He does a nice job using his hands to fend off the opposing lineman. He didn't get as much pressure on Joe Flacco yesterday as a he had against Locker and Kolb in the weeks prior, but some of that was due to the fact that Michael Oher was taking advantage of the refs inability to correctly diagnose holding penalties. He looks like the first good defensive end the Patriots have drafted since Richard Seymour.

AntoinCD
09-26-2012, 02:31 PM
None of the Pats'rookies looked great against the Ravens for differing reasons.

Jones actually ended up with 4 pressures against Flacco and a would be sack ruled out for a defensive holding penalty, however he looked slow off the snap at times and Oher done a pretty good job on him.

Hightower looked like he was thinking too much instead of reacting. On Ray Rice's TD run he didn't scrape over the top of the OG on the second level and got blown out of the play.

Wilson didn't get much snaps because the Pats were playing a lot of two deep early on and kept Kyle Love on the field a lot. Normally when Wilson comes in Love goes out and the Pats play 3 safeties with Wilson in a rover role. However the gameplan took them away from that scheme.

No other rookie was of note

HellonEarth84
09-27-2012, 05:43 PM
None of the Pats'rookies looked great against the Ravens for differing reasons.

Jones actually ended up with 4 pressures against Flacco and a would be sack ruled out for a defensive holding penalty, however he looked slow off the snap at times and Oher done a pretty good job on him.

Hightower looked like he was thinking too much instead of reacting. On Ray Rice's TD run he didn't scrape over the top of the OG on the second level and got blown out of the play.

Wilson didn't get much snaps because the Pats were playing a lot of two deep early on and kept Kyle Love on the field a lot. Normally when Wilson comes in Love goes out and the Pats play 3 safeties with Wilson in a rover role. However the gameplan took them away from that scheme.

No other rookie was of note


Chandler Jones had a huge sack in a crucial moment.

It was negated by a phantom holding call against Brandon Spikes. Should've been a 12 yard loss for the Ravens, instead they got an automatic first down.


Good thing the real refs are coming back

Marino13
10-01-2012, 10:01 AM
Tannehill has made strides in the first month. He was only 1 yard shy of Cam's rookie record of passing yards in a game.

Jonathan Martin has settled in nicely to the RT spot

Lamar Miller should be our backup RB

Olivier Vernon comes in on passing downs, and gets okay pressure but nothing to right home about.

Michael Egnew has yet to play

Kheeston Randall comes in a lot on passing downs.

AntoinCD
10-01-2012, 10:11 AM
Chandler Jones had a big 3rd down TFL one the first series and then had a sack.

Dont'a Hightower also had a sack early but left with a hammy.

Tavon Wilson looked better than Gregory when he was in the game and had a garbage time INT. He now has 4 turnovers through 4 weeks.

I think Bequette got a little garbage time work but didn't flash.

Nate Ebner was beat badly at one point

TACKLE
10-01-2012, 10:22 AM
Bruce Feldman ‏@BFeldmanCBS

Vontaze Burfict proving a lot of ppl wrong. Led Cincy with 8 solo tackles today, had 2 TFLs, a sack in a win.

*also had a nice pass breakup in man coverage vs. Blackmon

Thecollegedropout
10-01-2012, 10:25 AM
To continue the AFC East Trend

Jets:

DE Quentin Coples had his best game of his career. Didn't do anything worth **** getting to the QB but had at least 3 TFL and was one of the few Jets who did anything worthwhile. Still has a long way to go.

WR Stephen Hill out with hammy

LB Demario Davis had a nice tackle but he's not starting and is not getting enough plays. Cannot be worse than what we have at LB on pass coverage in all honesty.

S Josh Bush didn't see the field

Altogether, this draft pretty much signifies that Mike Tannebaum our GM really has gotta go.

cmarq83
10-01-2012, 10:35 AM
To continue the AFC East Trend

Jets:

DE Quentin Coples had his best game of his career. Didn't do anything worth **** getting to the QB but had at least 3 TFL and was one of the few Jets who did anything worthwhile. Still has a long way to go.

WR Stephen Hill out with hammy

LB Demario Davis had a nice tackle but he's not starting and is not getting enough plays. Cannot be worse than what we have at LB on pass coverage in all honesty.

S Josh Bush didn't see the field

Altogether, this draft pretty much signifies that Mike Tannebaum our GM really has gotta go.

Tannebaum has been really awful in recent drafts. It kills all the momentum the Jets had after drafting and securing their core 4. The roster as assembled now does not look good, and they have so many holes to fill without any cap space to do it. They really had a shot to take a lead in the overall talent competition between them and the Patriots, but they're to the point now where even sans Brady I think the Pats roster is better than the Jets.

AntoinCD
10-01-2012, 10:45 AM
Tannebaum has been really awful in recent drafts. It kills all the momentum the Jets had after drafting and securing their core 4. The roster as assembled now does not look good, and they have so many holes to fill without any cap space to do it. They really had a shot to take a lead in the overall talent competition between them and the Patriots, but they're to the point now where even sans Brady I think the Pats roster is better than the Jets.

The Jets have a decent core of talent particluarly defensively, however their talent levels at some positions and depth wise is horrible.

Offensively outside of D'Brick and Mangold they don't have a lot to be excited about moving forward. Maybe Hill can develop but that's definitely a ?

Defensively I love their defensive line. Coples, Pouha, DeVito and Muh Wilkerson is pretty nasty. However their back 7 without Revis is not good and depth is a killer, as evident by seeing Joe McKnight get reps at CB and the fact they just signed Aaron Berry.

phlysac
10-01-2012, 11:47 AM
Trenton Robinson is the only rookie to dress, so far, for the 49ers. He has seen spot time on Special Teams.

21ST
10-01-2012, 11:50 AM
RG3 hAd his 1st game winning drive

SuperMcGee
10-01-2012, 12:54 PM
^ Whatever you were going for, I agree. Graham can get behind people, I just hope the guy chucking the ball can get it to him.

6 weeks later, it is pretty evident that he can not. Wasted weaponry.

And Cordy Glenn could miss a few weeks with an ankle injury, because **** me.

Bengals78
10-01-2012, 01:03 PM
Zeitler has been really good so far for a rookie.
M. Jones had a decent game.
Burfict had his best game so far.
Still and Thompson had played much better.

Rcee
10-01-2012, 06:30 PM
derek wolfe is still getting most of his snaps from the DE position it seems. does next to nothing as far as pass rush is concerned but has been great vs. the run.

ronnie hillman finally got a decent amount of snaps this week. looked about 100x better than knowshon ever has, although that doesn't say much at all.

danny trevathan got some garbage time snaps in the last minutes. omar bolden had a one kick return. really not much to report for the broncos :|

Caulibflower
10-01-2012, 06:49 PM
Seahawks

Bruce Irvin - had his best game last week against Green Bay and has 2.5 sacks on the season through 4 weeks. Think everyone would be happy to see a 10-sack year. That would pretty well justify the pick. He doesn't make many plays against the run. He was shut out of the game statistically against the Rams, and only has 3 total tackles on the year. So basically, he only tackles quarterbacks. Kind of makes me think of the rookie season Mark Anderson had a few years ago. Certainly isn't an every-down player, but he's gotten a few sacks this year and that's all we're asking him to do. So no one in Seattle's complaining.

Bobby Wagner - Starting on a good defense, but hasn't made any really big plays yet. No huge mistakes, though, either. I think I was saying it before the draft, but he really actually reminds me a lot of Aaron Curry. He's not going to lose you any games, you just don't really notice him on the field either. But taking a guy like that in the second round is fine. Fourth overall? Not so much.

Russell Wilson - the coaching staff has been very conservative with their play-calling and have been focusing on the running game. The three interceptions he had yesterday are misleading about how well he's played. He has done what he is expected to do. Of his 4 picks now this season, one was a bomb at the end of a first half, one was in Doug Baldwin's hands before it literally just fell out and into the hands of a defender, and another was, again, an accurate pass where the receiver fell down and there was only a defender there to make the play. He's been accurate and once or twice a game spins out of a collapsing pocket and makes a play. He's making some rookie mistakes, but from my perspective when I see our offense struggling I see it more as a weakness in our receiving corps than anything else. He doesn't have anyone in our offense to be that "security blanket." There's just no one like that, so all things considered I think he's playing pretty well.

Robert Turbin - He runs hard and with a lot of effort, but hasn't seen the field a whole lot yet. It's definitely still Marshawn's job exclusively; no backfield tandems here. I do wonder if as the season goes on they'll try to get him more touches because he does look good on the field, and I'd worry about overworing Marshawn since he's by far our best offensive weapon and if he went down we'd be screwed.

fenikz
10-01-2012, 07:38 PM
Massie gave up about 5 sacks and had a couple holds and false starts, fits right in with the rest of the O-Line

Michael Floyd seems to have finally passed Doucet as our #3 WR but is losing some touches to Robert Housler as we tend to go 2 TE > 3 WR

SeanTaylorRIP
10-01-2012, 09:18 PM
Rookie RB's:

Alfred Morris: 376 rushing yards, 4.6 ypc, 4 TD's.
Doug Martin : 247 rushing yards, 3.5 ypc, 1 TD.
Trent Richardson: 222 rushing yards, 3.5 ypc, 3 TD's.

Who would have thought so far that a 6th round RB from Florida Atlantic would be outshining the first round rookies. I won't lie and pretend like I knew much about Morris when we drafted him, I actually thought he would be a FB. But the guy is just a complete bowling ball, always going forward always converting short yardage plays, he even showed more speed and wiggle than you'd expect this past week.

GaMeTiMe
10-01-2012, 09:23 PM
Eagles draft is shaping up to be as good as it looked on paper.
Cox is clearly the most talented DT on the roster. Plays in rotation and i need to rewatch the Giant game but hes done a good job.

Kendricks looks great playing with Ryans, who people need to start talking about again by the way..

Curry has been inactive because of DE depth..Tapp was shopped but teams figured he'd just be cut, he wasnt and has played great..Curry should be ready to step into the rotation when need-be..

Boykin has done a respectable job in the slot and on returns. Plenty of room for improvement but still shaping up as a steal

Foles did what he did in the pre-season and while im still not in love with him thats more than i had ever expected so I'll take it. Still not sure what he means to the team long-term but I'd expect him to get playing time at multiple points in the season, whether Vick takes a bad hit or in a blowout. I think Andy wants/needs to get a look at what he has here ASAP.

Dennis Kelly is technically the swing tackle because of injuries but he was active over Demetress Bell in the first game. To Bell's credit he starts over Kelly now.

Bryce Brown has risen to McCoy's primary back-up and they seem to want to give him a chance to get out there.

McNutt is on the PS after losing out to UDFA Demaris Johnson, who has done an excellent job. Chris Polk was another UDFA gem moved to FB so he could make the roster, now active over Dion Lewis at RB..

And in conclusion, I dedicate this to Brandon Washington, the one who didn't make it

DiG
10-02-2012, 07:39 AM
Rookie RB's:

Alfred Morris: 376 rushing yards, 4.6 ypc, 4 TD's.
Doug Martin : 247 rushing yards, 3.5 ypc, 1 TD.
Trent Richardson: 222 rushing yards, 3.5 ypc, 3 TD's.

Who would have thought so far that a 6th round RB from Florida Atlantic would be outshining the first round rookies. I won't lie and pretend like I knew much about Morris when we drafted him, I actually thought he would be a FB. But the guy is just a complete bowling ball, always going forward always converting short yardage plays, he even showed more speed and wiggle than you'd expect this past week.

Definitely wasn't expected but Morris is fun to watch. He is on pace for 1500 yards and 16 tds...RG3 is on pace for 4200 yards passing, 1000 yards rushing, 32 total touchdowns and 4 ints...

21ST
10-02-2012, 09:47 AM
I guess I should put it here too. 1st quarter of the season stats for the rookie QBs


QB Rating
Name - NFL Rank – Rating 
RG3 – 4th – 103.2
Luck – 24th – 75.4
Wilson – 27th – 73.5
Tannehill – 31st – 66.4
Weeden – 32nd – 60.4

Completion Percentage 
RG3 – 2nd – 69.4%
Wilson – 21st – 60%
Tannehill – 27th – 55.9%
Weeden – 30th – 53.9%
Luck – 31st – 53.3%

Yards per Attempt:
RG3 – 3rd – 8.6
Tannehill – 16th – 7.3
Luck – 21st – 6.9
Weeden – 30th – 6.0
Wilson – 31st – 5.9

killxswitch
10-02-2012, 11:47 AM
Whining about getting hit:

Name - NFL Rank - Rating
RG3 - 1st - whiny *****

DanDanE420
10-03-2012, 09:05 PM
Travis Benjamin looks like the next in a long line of Miami playmakers.

Caddy
10-03-2012, 09:06 PM
I guess I should put it here too. 1st quarter of the season stats for the rookie QBs


QB Rating
Name - NFL Rank – Rating 
RG3 – 4th – 103.2
Luck – 24th – 75.4
Wilson – 27th – 73.5
Tannehill – 31st – 66.4
Weeden – 32nd – 60.4

Completion Percentage 
RG3 – 2nd – 69.4%
Wilson – 21st – 60%
Tannehill – 27th – 55.9%
Weeden – 30th – 53.9%
Luck – 31st – 53.3%

Yards per Attempt:
RG3 – 3rd – 8.6
Tannehill – 16th – 7.3
Luck – 21st – 6.9
Weeden – 30th – 6.0
Wilson – 31st – 5.9

RG3 has been great so far, but I'd probably still want Luck in the longhaul. Wilson and Weeden suck.

49ersfan_87
10-04-2012, 04:31 PM
49ers rookie update through the first month of football

1.30 AJ Jenkins- 0 snaps played.

2.61 LaMichael James- 0 snaps played

4.117 Joe Looney- 0 snaps played

5.145 Darius Fleming- Torn ACL, on PUP

6.180 Trenton Robinson- Played ST's

6.199 Jason Slowey- Cut, playing in the UFL

7.237 Cam Johnson- Practice Squad

UDFA Garrett Celek (Brent Celek's brother)- Some offensive and special teams snaps played.

...Yeah. Part of it is good depth, part of it is they're simply not impressing enough to even suit up in uniform. I'd be surprised to see any of the drafted rookies play barring multiple injuries at their position.

Bengals78
10-07-2012, 08:03 PM
Zeitler has been good.
Sanu and Jones didn't really play.
Burfict was solid. Not really an impact outside of getting the ball off the fumble.
Still was decent. Struggles vs run.

armageddon
10-08-2012, 09:06 AM
Rams

CB Jenoris Jenkins looks like a future pro bowler

Don Vito
10-08-2012, 09:10 AM
Alfonzo Dennard looked great in limited snaps yesterday, was stuck to Decker like glue in a few occasions. Tavon Wilson started and had a decent game with Gregory out, the Stokely TD in the redzone happened near him but I'm not sure it was his fault. He's always around the ball though,

Chandler Jones was generating pressure all day, coming off defensive rookie of the month and not slowing down. Donta Hightower was hurt and didn't play. Brandon Bolden had another impressive showing. Nate Ebner was in on special teams all game. Love this rookie class.

AntoinCD
10-08-2012, 09:17 AM
Alfonzo Dennard looked great in limited snaps yesterday, was stuck to Decker like glue in a few occasions. Tavon Wilson started and had a decent game with Gregory out, the Stokely TD in the redzone happened near him but I'm not sure it was his fault. He's always around the ball though,

Chandler Jones was generating pressure all day, coming off defensive rookie of the month and not slowing down. Donta Hightower was hurt and didn't play. Brandon Bolden had another impressive showing. Nate Ebner was in on special teams all game. Love this rookie class.

That TD to Stokley was all on Arrington. He got caught peaking into the backfield and didn't get a hand on Stokley. I think he was probably there to jam him on the line to allow Wilson to cover in zone in behind. However by getting a free release Wilson had no chance to get over

FUNBUNCHER
10-08-2012, 09:54 AM
I think Luck just passed RGIII as the odds on favorite to win OROTY.
Does anyone else think it's possible the Colts win 8 games if Luck plays all season??

draftguru151
10-08-2012, 10:07 AM
Tanny had a pretty efficient day, nothing big but he was solid. Really wish we would use his athleticism some more though. Jonathan Martin has gotten 10 times better since the preseason and looks good at RT. Olivier Vernon has looked ok but hasn't made much of an impact. Don't think Lamar got a touch yesterday. Michael Egnew continues to be worthless. Kheeston Randall got some burn at DT at looks decent.

Giantsfan1080
10-08-2012, 11:19 AM
Big day for the Giants rookies yesterday.

David Wilson only had 2 carries but he broke a 40+ yd TD without even being touched.

Reuben Randle had a breakout game also leading the team in receiving yesterday. He went 6 for 82 yards with some big 3rd down catches.

J-Spot
10-08-2012, 11:20 AM
Big day for the Giants rookies yesterday.

David Wilson only had 2 carries but he broke a 40+ yd TD without even being touched.

Reuben Randle had a breakout game also leading the team in receiving yesterday. He went 6 for 82 yards with some big 3rd down catches.

How is Jayron Hosely doing? He was one of my favorite players in this draft.

Also, I was intrigued by Marcus Kuhn when the Giants drafted him in the 7th round. Has he contributed in any way?

Giantsfan1080
10-08-2012, 11:26 AM
How is Jayron Hosely doing? He was one of my favorite players in this draft.

Also, I was intrigued by Marcus Kuhn when the Giants drafted him in the 7th round. Has he contributed in any way?

Hosley has been pretty good but he's been in and out with a hamstring issue. I think he's only played 3 games so far. He made a nice pick off Cam on that Thursday night game two weeks ago. We've been playing him mostly in the slot but he'll go on the outside once in a while. I think he's going to end up being a steal.

Kuhn got the start yesterday because of injuries. He's decent at best right now. He doesn't get any push in the passing game but made a nice play or two stopping the run. He's very raw and wasn't expected to start this early so it's not a surprise he's going to struggle. He'll be a good rotational DT for us though especially considering he was a 7th rounder.

J-Spot
10-08-2012, 11:32 AM
Hosley has been pretty good but he's been in and out with a hamstring issue. I think he's only played 3 games so far. He made a nice pick off Cam on that Thursday night game two weeks ago. We've been playing him mostly in the slot but he'll go on the outside once in a while. I think he's going to end up being a steal.

Kuhn got the start yesterday because of injuries. He's decent at best right now. He doesn't get any push in the passing game but made a nice play or two stopping the run. He's very raw and wasn't expected to start this early so it's not a surprise he's going to struggle. He'll be a good rotational DT for us though especially considering he was a 7th rounder.

I'm kind of surprised that Kuhn even got any snaps this year. I know Coughlin hates playing rookies if he can help it, and they have such a deep rotation at DT with Rocky Bernard, Linval Joseph, Chris Canty, Shaun Rogers, and Marvin Austin. I think Rogers and/or Canty are hurt, but I don't understand why Austin isn't starting.

Giantsfan1080
10-08-2012, 11:37 AM
I'm kind of surprised that Kuhn even got any snaps this year. I know Coughlin hates playing rookies if he can help it, and they have such a deep rotation at DT with Rocky Bernard, Linval Joseph, Chris Canty, Shaun Rogers, and Marvin Austin. I think Rogers and/or Canty are hurt, but I don't understand why Austin isn't starting.

Rogers isn't on the team. Canty is on PUP. Rockey Bernard was hurt. We had 3 active DT's yesterday. Austin has barely played football the last 2 years so he's not really in game shape yet.

Thecollegedropout
10-08-2012, 12:09 PM
Even though the Jets game did not happen yet, here is what will happen to save me time for doing a writeup after the game

DE Quinton Coples barely did anything in the game and has yet to register his 1st NFL Sack.

WR Stephen Hill is a DNP with a bad hamstring.

LB Demario Davis who should be starting or at least getting more plays hardly did anything outside of special teams.

S Josh Bush was sitting on the bench as a backup safety.

Altogether probably going to be another lame week out of our 2012 draftees.

Thecollegedropout
10-08-2012, 11:24 PM
Even though the Jets game did not happen yet, here is what will happen to save me time for doing a writeup after the game

DE Quinton Coples barely did anything in the game and has yet to register his 1st NFL Sack.

WR Stephen Hill is a DNP with a bad hamstring.

LB Demario Davis who should be starting or at least getting more plays hardly did anything outside of special teams.

S Josh Bush was sitting on the bench as a backup safety.

Altogether probably going to be another lame week out of our 2012 draftees.
Well the Jets proved me wrong....Bush did see time at safety. That's about it though sadly.

Very frustrating seeing Chandler Jones do so well and Coples be absolutely invisible.

HellonEarth84
10-11-2012, 02:40 AM
Very frustrating seeing Chandler Jones do so well and Coples be absolutely invisible.

This is usually the case with Jets and Patriots draft picks.

bigbluedefense
10-11-2012, 10:33 AM
I didn't like the Coples pick. He looked good in the PS, and it's still too early to write him off so I don't think its fair to judge him just yet.

And I was surprised Chandler is doing so well. I liked him, a lot, but I had him as a pure 4-3 LE, I thought he was going to be a terrible fit in the 3-4, even with Bellichick running more of a hybrid.

He looks much more fluid than I thought he would.

Another guy I was a huge fan of was Whitney Mercillus and I haven't heard a peep from him yet.

And I thought Ingram would be a bust, but so far he's been great. Proving me wrong.

bigbluedefense
10-11-2012, 10:44 AM
Well, the Giants rookies picked it up a little bit vs the Browns:

-David Wilson had 2 carries, 1 was for 4 yards, the other he took to the house for 40 yards. His speed and explosion is very noticeable. Once he earns enough trust from the coaching staff, I see big things out of him. Reminds me of good Chris Johnson. Not saying he'll be that player, but he has that kind of ceiling.

-Rueben Randle had a big game. He looked unstoppable at times and looks the part. Keep in mind though, because he isn't grasping the complexity of our playbook, he ran no option routes the entire game. His routes were drawn up by Eli in the huddle. So will he ever pick up our playbook? We don't know yet. This isn't an offense that's easy to pick up. So we'll see if he can develop. But the tools are there, we know that much.

SuperMcGee
10-11-2012, 12:27 PM
Nigel Bradham looks like he's in for a bigger role. Took a healthy number of snaps this week and showed decent ability on the field. Seems like a more legit linebacker than Moats, would basically be taking over that "starter" role that ends up playing much less than Barnett, Scott, and Sheppard.

Gilmore still struggling.

J-Spot
10-11-2012, 09:22 PM
The two best defensive rookies are Bruce Irvin and Chandler Jones by far.

I thought Seattle "reached" on Irvin but I was dead wrong, like everyone else. He's a perfect fit for their sub-package and a worthwhile first round pick.

Irvin was a much better pick for Seattle than Ingram or Coples would have been.

yo123
10-11-2012, 11:05 PM
So far the Vikings draft has been quite awesome.

Matt Kalil- Hasn't been dominant, but he's looked good overall. You don't hear his name often which is obviously good for a LT.

Harrison Smith- Couldn't be happier with his performance so far, he's a hard hitter with good coverage instincts. He's been a stud so far.

Josh Robinson- Hasn't been lockdown or anything but I've been impressed given that he seemed like more of a project coming in. He's holding his own in coverage and he's a lot more aggressive in the run game than I thought he would be.

Jairius Wright- The only real disappointment so far. Hasn't been active.

Rhett Ellison- Had a nice catch and run last week, seeing some time in the backfield. Hasn't been great as a blocker but I like his potential as an H-back type.

Greg Childs- Out for the year.

Robert Blanton- Hasn't seen much time but was thrown in the lineup unexpectedly last week after Smith's ejection and held his own just fine.

Blair Walsh- Stud.

Audie Cole- Hasn't done anything yet. 7th rounder though, oh well.

Overall I don't remember getting this much this quickly from a Vikings draft class in recent memory. Pretty exciting.

Pit Bull #53
10-11-2012, 11:08 PM
I watched Titans-Vikings on the all-22 coaches cam this past week, and watched Harrison Smith before he got ejected, and he sure looked like a stud to me. Fast, decisive, hard hitting, good pursuit angles. Obviously a small sample size of what I've seen, but he looks promising.

yo123
10-11-2012, 11:24 PM
I watched Titans-Vikings on the all-22 coaches cam this past week, and watched Harrison Smith before he got ejected, and he sure looked like a stud to me. Fast, decisive, hard hitting, good pursuit angles. Obviously a small sample size of what I've seen, but he looks promising.


Good to hear, it's hard sometimes to judge safety play off the regular TV camera angles. It's been soooo long since we've had passable safeties. Awesome to see.

HellonEarth84
10-12-2012, 01:05 AM
Alfonzo Dennard finally showed up in New England after missing most of Pre-Season and the first 4 weeks.

Was targeted 4 times and didn't give up any receptions. Broke up 2 passes.

bucfan12
10-12-2012, 08:49 AM
Lavonte David and Mark Barron are going to be studs. They've been fantastic constantly around the ball

Thecollegedropout
10-12-2012, 02:27 PM
This is usually the case with Jets and Patriots draft picks.
Craziest thing is our best rookie of 2012 thus far might be Damon Harrison who was undrafted out of William Penn and I think is pegged to start vs the Colts with Pouha being doubtful and Kenrick Ellis being out for over a month. Harrison had a pretty nice few plays vs HOU a good blocking team even though it was at that point Foster didn't try and just wanted to eat up clock.

Thecollegedropout
10-15-2012, 11:37 AM
After giving the Jets draft class a load of crap the past few weeks, we had a really good showing by our rookies vs Indy

DE Quentin Coples was applying pressure on Luck all day....and got his 1st career sack on an Int. Grounding call. His lone blemish was a 15 yard facemask when it was clear Luck was going to be put on the ground by he and Scott without that. His best game by far.

WR Stephen Hill after a few DNPs, had himself a TD and was doing a sensational job with outside blocking which was something a lot of people loved in his time at Ga Tech. Like our QB Sanchez, the passing game was not called upon today since our running attack was killing the Colts defense so he had himself a very nice day in return.

LB Demario Davis played more so late in the game but he had a fumble recovery to end the game and while it was a meaningless game at that point, its those little types of things that could add to one's confidence. Nothing crazy or to get excited about but in the role he has right now, he's doing okay.

S Josh Bush came close to a fumble recovery on special teams but the runner was down. He's quickly becoming a pretty valuable special teams player which is more than fine out of a late 6th rounder.

S Antonio Allen our 7th round pick got added from the practice squad and had a very nice day. Logged in his 1st sack and did it before Coples so there was a point and time where I was about to say that one of the final picks of the draft got a sack before one of the more heralded DEs in the game but Coples got his own. He was apart of an iffy call on pass int. which I thought should not have been called since he had his head back but alas.

DT Damon Harrison was apart of a stellar run defense that had its way vs Vick Ballard and while he did not start, he provided some much needed rest and snaps off the bench.

BuckeyeDan17
10-15-2012, 02:56 PM
Josh Gordon is making week-to-week improvements, he shows at times that he gives up on routes when the play looks busted rather than attempting to bail Weeden out. Through 6 games, he's got 12 catches, 274 yds, 3 TDs.

Mitchell Schwartz is another guy making week-to-week improvement, he handled JPP when up against him last week and held his ground this week.

Trent is day-to-day with a rib cartilage issue - not serious

Weeden is Weeden - I will say this though, he and Gordon look to have a nice little downfield chemistry, that's something to keep an eye on as the season progresses.

Polamalu_is_God
10-19-2012, 03:01 AM
Chris Rainey lookin like mr. all-purpose.

jsagan77
10-19-2012, 06:02 AM
I think Luck just passed RGIII as the odds on favorite to win OROTY.
Does anyone else think it's possible the Colts win 8 games if Luck plays all season??


Not even close. RG3 is better than Luck. Yeah I said it. And anyone that says he has a better supporting cast. We took a 36mil cap hit over 2 years, have a horrible secondary, an OL with one high draft pick and descent FA signing, a 6th round RB(whos another great shany find btw) and our top pass rusher(rak) and starting DL out for the year plus garcon is hurt ontop of trading away draft picks for over a decade. The fact we are playing the Gmen in a first place game right now is a miracle and it's all because of RG3.

Im not saying Luck isn't special. RG3 is just the Sean Taylor/Patrick willis/Calvin Johnson of QB's. He's just the best QB prospect I've ever seen and he's living up to the hype. What a stud.

HellonEarth84
10-19-2012, 08:01 AM
Irvin was a much better pick for Seattle than Ingram or Coples would have been.

I think Ingram could be just as effective in the role Irvin is playing.

Plus Ingram's younger and can play every down.


People made big deal about Weedens age, but Irvin is no spring chicken at 25 years old. For a speed rusher, his career might only be 5 years long. Weedens career could be 10 years long.

Thecollegedropout
10-22-2012, 04:26 PM
After a great week by the Jet rookies.........well they came back down to earth in a terrible matter.

DE Quinton Coples outside of like 2 or 3 plays was invisible once again and did next to nothing when applying pressure on Brady. Altogether he has been terribly inconsistent thus far and its frustrating because he CAN be good at times.....but then there are times where he offers up nothing even if he isn't getting at the QB.

WR Stephen Hill once again has these tendencies to drop the ball on such an easy play. I understand there's a reason he got compared to fellow Ga Tech raw dropper D. Thomas.....believe me I understand that. But My god I swear most members on this board make that late game catch. The guy has all the tools you can want but the fact of the matter is he always ends up with these frustrating drops.

LB Demario Davis had a rough day on the field. Won't crucify him for not doing well covering Hernandez and Gronk...they do this to many. However, he blew a blitz by running into a fellow Jet defender that in essence Brady got Gronk on the 1st TD, he took himself out of position on some down the field tackling and I think he had a few gaffs on special teams too, notably taking a wrong route on the McCourty special teams TD. He's just way too slow it seems, he's gotta find a way to get faster this offseason.

S Josh Bush might have been the best rookie of the day as I think minus being apart of the group that allowed McCourty to get an easy TD he made a few plays on special teams.

S Antonio Allen didn't do much but he did grab the facemask of a Patriot lineman on 4th down during a Pats punt that moved the chains for the Patriots. Luckily for him, the defense bailed him out and 0 points were scored.

Don't remember hearing or seeing NT Damon Harrison on the field.

gpngc
10-22-2012, 07:04 PM
So I have a question: who are the leading candidates for DROY? Wagner? Kuechly? Jenkins?

P-L
10-22-2012, 07:15 PM
So I have a question: who are the leading candidates for DROY? Wagner? Kuechly? Jenkins?
Chandler Jones?

soybean
10-22-2012, 07:23 PM
Im not saying Luck isn't special. RG3 is just the Sean Taylor/Patrick willis/Calvin Johnson of QB's. He's just the best QB prospect I've ever seen and he's living up to the hype. What a stud.

:njx: 10 characters

armageddon
10-22-2012, 09:48 PM
Here is Green Bay Center Jeff Saturday speaking of having to play against Michael Brockers:

Center Jeff Saturday struggled at times blocking for the run, including twice against rookie defensive tackle Michael Brockers. He said an apt comparison for Brockers would be as a cross between former Jacksonville stalwarts John Henderson and Marcus Stroud.

"Strong, big kid and physical," Saturday said. "He's going to be a very good player. I told him that after the game."

Brockers also came off Lang once in the first quarter and tackled Green for minus-2. The Packers had problems keeping middle linebacker James Laurinaitis out of plays, and Saturday said the back-side linebacker flowed hard and fast, too.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-running-game-goes-nowhere-fast-n27a1l5-175180181.html

keylime_5
10-22-2012, 10:59 PM
I like the Browns rookie class a lot. Billy Winn and John Hughes have been really good at DT on defense. James-Michael Johnson and LJ Fort have contributed in the LB rotation amid a bunch of injuries there. Josh Gordon is a playmaker the past few weeks, he looks REALLY good as a legit deep threat (though he did drop a sure game winning TD pass on a great throw by Weeden). Speaking of which Weeden has been pretty darn good this year too. I think we finally have a starting QB in Cleveland (too bad he's 29 instead of 22 though). Mitchell Schwartz has been steady at RT.

Believe it or not Trent Richardson has been my most disappointing rookie for us considering, though he isn't getting great blocking and he's been hurt....but still he could do a lot better than he has been. Too much dancing in the backfield I would say (and the coaches don't trust him yet on 3rd downs which is where he will eventually be deadly as a receiver).

yo123
10-22-2012, 11:03 PM
So I have a question: who are the leading candidates for DROY? Wagner? Kuechly? Jenkins?

D-backs never win, but if they ever got consideration Harrison Smith would be in the mix.

descendency
10-23-2012, 05:44 AM
So I have a question: who are the leading candidates for DROY? Wagner? Kuechly? Jenkins?

Chandler Jones is the DROY candidate right now. Out of most people's (professionals, not random people on this site) top 10 rookie lists, he's among the only defensive player on it.

Wootylicous
10-23-2012, 08:55 AM
Harrison Smith is really surprising me. He's gonna be a stud for years.

LonghornsLegend
10-23-2012, 09:04 AM
Mo Claiborne had his first INT of the season on Sunday. He's continued to have really good man coverage and physicality at the line, it wouldn't surprise me if his cover skills are better then Brandon Carr at seasons end. Would like to see more turnovers obviously but he looks as advertised. Let's see how he does against Nicks this second time around though before he's due for a clunker of a game vs an elite Wr.

Brown Leader
10-23-2012, 09:08 PM
My take Browns rookies. (7 starting)

Weeden
A few things to consider about Weeden's play.. He's throwing to a rookie supplemental pick, a 5th round rookie, a practice squad guy, league leader in drops Greg Little, 2nd yr rec TE Cameron and vet Watson, whose one solid hit away from retirement. Browns as a team lead the league in drops and own the 3oth ranked rushing attack. And Weeden's still improving each week. Last week was the 2nd 4th quarter go ahead TD pass dropped for him in the last 3 games.

Richardson
Agreed with keylime, he's dancing quite a bit but I think that's also on his coaching. Disagree on 3rd downs. I think Ogobannaya is just better in that role. Still, he leads team in catches and was the offense's primary weapon before his rib injury, which was not caused by a hit to the ribs. It looks like he did it knocking a defender out the way with his elbow-I guess jarring his rib area. It's a lingering injury that could sideline him for awhile raising the injury concerns on him again.-he's frighteningly reminding me of Fred Taylor.

Mitchell Schwartz
Has a really good game then a bad one. Typical rookie season but he's flashed enough to feel he'll hold RT down for a long time.

Josh Gordon
Has shown size, fluidity and deceptive speed but it's more about Weeden's accuracy then Gordon showing amazing signature plays of his own. He's got great upside but counting on him to be a #1 WR next season would be a mistake.

Travis Benjamin
His speed is a problem but he can't stay healthy. Strictly a role player until he gets stronger and masters routes. Potentially a DeSean Jackson type in a few seasons if everything goes well.

Billy Winn
Solid for a rookie DT. Learning on the job how to defend the run but shows some upside to become a solid all around tackle.

John Hughes
^Same for Hughes. Been starting alongside Winn with Rubin out and shows promise as a solid starting DT eventually.

L.J. Fort
No impact at all since DQ has returned.

Ishmaa'ily Kitchen
Plays in rotation spelling Winn and Hughes. JAG gaining valuable experience and might turn it into something down the road but probably for another team.

Josh Cooper
Brought up from practice squad because of all the injuries and has been productive drawing from chemistry with Weeden. Still, he's jag-not much quickness or speed.

armageddon
10-23-2012, 09:50 PM
I still think the Rams hit gold on their draft and could turn out to be a franchise changer, especially considering they have the Skins #1's the next 2 years

DT Brockers - Early injury, but is healthy now. Huge, dominant force in the middle and was just what the Rams needed

WR Quick - Nothing yet, but he has the size, speed, athleticism you want. 6'4 1/2 , 225. Very raw and still learning. I expect him to slowly get more involved each week.

CB Jenkins - A few rookie mistakes, but he has immense talent. He likes to gamble, which has cost him a few times. He will learn

RB Pead - Nothing yet either. You can see his speed and what he could bring, but really hasn't had the chance yet.

CB Johnson - Looks like a very good CB

WR Givens - very explosive. Reminds me of DeShaun Jackson

OG Watkins - Huge road grader. Inured. Like his potential for next year. It will be like getting another pick. Probably 3rd round talent

K Greg the Leg- Awesome, plain and simple

RB Richardson - The dude can flat out play. Might be a hidden gem.

All in all, could be a great draft. They could actually all be starters as soon as next year, with the exception of Pead, who will be more of a 3rd down pass catching type of back. Similar to Sproles in a way.

jsagan77
10-26-2012, 01:59 AM
:njx: 10 characters

I'd be interested to hear you're counter argument. The kid is a phoenominal Prospect and player. If he went to Stanford (which he was offered a scholarship for) he would've went in front of Luck, no question.

V.I.P
10-26-2012, 09:00 AM
I knew we got better value by where we selected Martin, but now i'm starting to think we got the better player as well.

Trent Richardson - 103 carries, 348 yards, 3.4 ypc, 24 rec, 197 yards, 5 total TD, 1 Fum

Doug Martin - 129 carries, 543 yards, 4.2 ypc, 16 rec, 224 yards, 4 total TD, 0 Fum

Most importantly, Martin has not missed a down due to injury.

vidae
10-26-2012, 09:04 AM
Oh VIP, you are so special.

It's 7 games into the season. You can't say one player is better than the other yet. Stop being silly.

BigBanger
10-26-2012, 10:54 AM
I'd be interested to hear you're counter argument. The kid is a phoenominal Prospect and player. If he went to Stanford (which he was offered a scholarship for) he would've went in front of Luck, no question.

You can't emerge your final year as a passing QB in that kind of offense and be viewed as the greatest QB prospect of all time. It shouldn't work that way. It didn't have anything to do with where these guys played. And Andrew Luck went to Stanford. That's not USC, Notre Dame or a powerhouse SEC school. It's ******* Stanford. Do you know what Stanford was doing for decades before Luck got there? They were about as good as Baylor. So lets just stop with all this "what if" ******** and just evaluate the two players separately.

EDIT: I just realized you said, "The best QB prospect I have ever seen." That may be true.

RGIII is simply fortunate enough to have been selected by the one team, more to the point, one offense, that is capable of getting all his talents out of him. Most teams who would have drafted RGIII would not have the creativity to implement this kind of offense he is running. There was not a better team he could have gone to. He lucked out. You cannot say Andrew Luck went to the best possible situation imaginable. Not even close. RGIII did. If RGIII went #1 overall it would have hurt him. Immensely. He's more of a system QB than anything else. You need to let your QB run with the football for RGIII to do what he does best. That's not a knock on RGIII, but there is no sense of putting RGIII in an offense that hides his best qualities: being a duel threat.

People blow their wads over rookie QBs all the time. Why? I don't know. They usually hype QBs who look impressive for rookies like they're next Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, but they are actually among the worst starting QBs in the NFL. It's premature. Its always premature.

RGIII is a little more special than your typical rookie QB who is having some early success. For starters, he's already a 10 Top QB in the NFL... even pushing Top 5 with how average some of these second tier QBs are playing (Romo, Rivers, Stafford, Newton, Freeman), but before we start calling him the greatest ________ ... let's just slow down and realize that he is a rookie. He has a thin playbook right now and he's being masterfully coddled by Shanahan. The Redskins are giving RGIII enough to make plays, but they're not asking him to do too much. They have simplified this offense to absurd standards. This is a Big 12 offense in the NFL. Last week, I don't know if he made 1 pass attempt more than 10 yards down field from inside the pocket. I don't think he did until he bootlegged or bailed on a busted play. He has weaknesses. He hasn't been exposed yet. There's a reason for the sophomore slump. It's not that the QB isn't putting in effort or that he's regressing... no, the NFL is catching up to him. They take away their strengths and force a QB to play into his weaknesses. It's then up to the QB to turn those weaknesses into strengths and redefine his own game, and... improve. Rick Mirer was going to be the next Joe Montana. Then teams found out that he could only throw to one side of the field.

Guys like Sam Bradford and Matt Ryan were the greatest QBs ever after their rookie seasons. Cam Newton was supposed to have redefined the NFL by now. Ryan is finally emerging as a player who is starting push the envelop for Top 5 QBs in the NFL, and he still has a lot to prove before he's firmly entrenched in that group. Bradford hasn't improved much, if at all, since his rookie season. Christian Ponder was everyone's favorite QB this year. Now it looks like teams are figuring out that he can't throw from inside the pocket. Joe Flacco is still Joe Flacco. "I'm an elite QB but I can't play on the road."

RGIII is having a great season, but he is not asked to do too much from a passing standpoint, from a pure QB standpoint. I spoke about this in regards to his debut. The stats were impressive, the game was impressive but it was the Saints defense and, mostly, a bunch YAC / terrible tackling. It was impressive for a rookie, but unimpressive for a veteran QB. It was more to do in my opinion about just how terrible the Saints were. And not so much about how overwhelming RGIII was.

RGIII is primed for a great career. There's no reason he shouldn't be better than Andrew Luck. He has more talent around him and his situation is already ideal. Andrew Luck is going to be more dependent on getting better players around him. Not to mention, RGIII simply has more talent. He has a high ceiling. Right now he's got a better arm, quicker release and better deep ball. He's more naturally gifted. Does Andrew Luck still have potential? Of course, we've seen QBs vastly develop their arm strength and deep throws while in the NFL (Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers the most noticeable).

Bulldogs
10-26-2012, 10:56 AM
Oh VIP, you are so special.

It's 7 games into the season. You can't say one player is better than the other yet. Stop being silly.

Classic Bucs fans.

bucfan12
10-26-2012, 11:40 AM
I knew we got better value by where we selected Martin, but now i'm starting to think we got the better player as well.

Trent Richardson - 103 carries, 348 yards, 3.4 ypc, 24 rec, 197 yards, 5 total TD, 1 Fum

Doug Martin - 129 carries, 543 yards, 4.2 ypc, 16 rec, 224 yards, 4 total TD, 0 Fum

Most importantly, Martin has not missed a down due to injury.

Martin is a phenomenal prospect VIP but its too early to tell who's better. Richardson is a freak of nature. But I did think bucs got tether value bc they filled 2 needs with future studs in David and Barron and Martin by not trading up to get Richardson.

Halsey
10-26-2012, 11:52 AM
I'd be interested to hear you're counter argument. The kid is a phoenominal Prospect and player. If he went to Stanford (which he was offered a scholarship for) he would've went in front of Luck, no question.


In imaginary RG3 fan world he would have gone ahead of Luck. In reality Luck went ahead of him and is a better QB. Being fun to watch doesn't make RG3 better than Luck.