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View Full Version : Bjoern Werner, DE, FSU


bored of education
09-09-2012, 06:23 PM
When the highly overrated Brandon Jenkins went down not only did Tank Carradine's draft prospects increase but Bjoern Werner's are catapulting. Don't lie, Jenkins lacked the first step or pass rushing repertoire to be deemed a 1st rounder.

Bjoern Werner is a physical freak who can over power any OT across from him. He has counter moves and the quick first step needed to translate to success at the NFL level.

If he was to declare where would you put him? Could he make his way in to th first?

Razor
09-09-2012, 06:34 PM
I really like Werner, but he doesn't have the athleticism to be a truly dominant DE. Imo he's a solid second round pick right now. I like him, but he's not special.

Don Vito
09-09-2012, 06:45 PM
Jenkins was a little overrated coming into this year, but he is a talented player. FSU obviously doesn't want to lose a player like Jenkins but they are still stacked with Carradine and Werner. The fact they had all three of them going into this year with plenty more talent on the DL is ridiculous. All three have first round ability I think.

I like Werner a lot but give me Carradine out of these 3. He is an absolute beast.

bored of education
09-09-2012, 06:52 PM
Carradine is going to start getting a lot of attention. I am a big fan of his as well. Good vs. the run and pass.

princefielder28
09-09-2012, 07:27 PM
I would take Werner in the top 20 but I'm not so sure he'll go that high

BamaFalcon59
09-09-2012, 09:44 PM
Jared Allen comparisons coming forthwith.

katnip
09-09-2012, 09:54 PM
Jared Allen comparisons coming forthwith.

Just about to come in to type this comparison

BamaFalcon59
09-09-2012, 09:56 PM
I'm good. .

TuckNole
09-09-2012, 10:41 PM
I really like Werner, but he doesn't have the athleticism to be a truly dominant DE. Imo he's a solid second round pick right now. I like him, but he's not special.

Werner might be more athletic than you think.

Babylon
09-09-2012, 10:53 PM
Werner already has a ton of sacks this year albeit against JV teams but his numbers are going to be pretty scary by the end of the year. Like him probably more as a 3-4 OLB right now.

villagewarrior
09-10-2012, 06:47 AM
Werner already has a ton of sacks this year albeit against JV teams but his numbers are going to be pretty scary by the end of the year. Like him probably more as a 3-4 OLB right now.

I haven't seen Werner since early last year but everything about his body and style of play screams 43 end to me. Dudes a football player though, just makes plays. And his name is Bjoern.

SolidGold
09-10-2012, 07:10 AM
Werner already has a ton of sacks this year albeit against JV teams but his numbers are going to be pretty scary by the end of the year. Like him probably more as a 3-4 OLB right now.

The level of competition is somewhat responsible for his numbers but he is already established as a very good player so it's not like his numbers are just a result of inferior competition. I like him as a 4-3 DE.

On the subject of playing lower competition - I wish the Heisman voters would take into consideration the stats players put up against the cupcakes in their schedule when making their decisions on who to invite to NY.

Babylon
09-10-2012, 01:20 PM
The level of competition is somewhat responsible for his numbers but he is already established as a very good player so it's not like his numbers are just a result of inferior competition. I like him as a 4-3 DE.

On the subject of playing lower competition - I wish the Heisman voters would take into consideration the stats players put up against the cupcakes in their schedule when making their decisions on who to invite to NY.

Me saying he is putting up numbers against cupcakes is just a statement of fact, it shouldnt be taken as i dont like the guy.

I guess we could make 4-3 comparisons to guys like Jared Allen and Chris Long (sorry for the white guy thing) or guys like Clay Matthews and Ryan Kerrigan but the point is he should be able to get into team's backfield at the next level. I see him getting into that top 15-18 area by draft day.

SolidGold
09-10-2012, 01:33 PM
Me saying he is putting up numbers against cupcakes is just a statement of fact, it shouldnt be taken as i dont like the guy.

I guess we could make 4-3 comparisons to guys like Jared Allen and Chris Long (sorry for the white guy thing) or guys like Clay Matthews and Ryan Kerrigan but the point is he should be able to get into team's backfield at the next level. I see him getting into that top 15-18 area by draft day.

I was just validating your initial statement on level of competition - just came out wrong - wasn't trying to be vindictive or anything. I agree completely with you.

BuddyCHRIST
09-10-2012, 01:38 PM
I don't like the Allen comparison, he's short space athletic but he's not as quick as a guy like Allen. He's definitely more a strength DE, and Is a 4-3 DE all the way imo. I can't even imagine him playing standing up. If anything he could put on more weight and play 3-4 DE as he was about 275 last year.

That said he's a freaking monster, he might not be a super high pick because he lacks elite physical tools but he'll be a good player for a while. The white/white comparison is old, but he is very similar to Chris Long.

MassNole
09-10-2012, 01:40 PM
It will be interesting how NFL teams view him going from 275 to 255, but reportedly getting significantly stronger in the process.

SF Dolphin Fan
09-10-2012, 08:40 PM
I think he has a chance to go 10-15 in the 1st round. Really underrated prospect right now, but very good.

badgerbacker
09-12-2012, 10:13 AM
Sounds like Aaron Kampman. Another white guy, so it's a possibility?

Brown Leader
09-12-2012, 12:10 PM
Jason Babin. Mid to late 1st rounder.

Bengals78
09-12-2012, 01:05 PM
He is awful and terrible. You don't want him. At all....

BamaFalcon59
09-12-2012, 02:05 PM
Jason Babin. Mid to late 1st rounder.

This is likely a joke but Babin relies on almost exclusively an outside speed rush, no? Wouldn't seem to be an apt comparison.

Brown Leader
09-12-2012, 02:40 PM
This is likely a joke but Babin relies on almost exclusively an outside speed rush, no? Wouldn't seem to be an apt comparison.

I wouldn't say that at all. Babin's powerful, quick, undersized and relentless. And not terribly fast but uses a variety of moves to get pressure.

BamaFalcon59
09-13-2012, 12:19 AM
Okay, haven't paid too much attention to him but I thought that I read that that was why he was excelling in the Eagles defense rather than the ones he had previously been a part of.

bored of education
09-15-2012, 10:00 PM
This guy is very well rounded, might end up in the top half of the first.

CashmoneyDrew
09-15-2012, 11:10 PM
I wouldn't mind at all if he were a Titan.

BigBanger
09-15-2012, 11:36 PM
He gets off the ball quick and has a better first step than Carradine. He's really powerful and plays with great pad level. Good motor. Technique is there. He's a stud. Haven't really watched much college football this year, but if I compare him to other DEs in the past... he's up there. 1st Round is no question. He'll go very high.

If people can't imagine him standing up, then all you have to do is watch. Because he does it. And he looks fine doing it.

AntoinCD
11-02-2012, 06:48 AM
Werner is really growing on me even though his numbers have tailed off after a hot start to the season.

I think his burst off the ball is tremendous and probably second only to Mingo's in this class. He does a good job of bending by the OT although I would like to see more counters from him.

He does a nice job in the run game. He has a good technique of getting his hands inside his blocker and steering him and then disengaging.

I think right now he is probably a definite top 15 pick and likely top 10 pick

Babylon
11-02-2012, 10:48 AM
^

His big early numbers were against cupcakes so it figured they'd tail off. When i watch this guy he comes across as someone that is still pretty new to the game and the effort i wouldnt exactly call all out. As the game goes on he's still there and still making an impact.

Let's not get too carried away as far as Werner being a top dozen pick but i think as far as pass rushers go he's right up there in this class.

Iamcanadian
11-03-2012, 02:22 PM
I love the guy but top 20 is out of the question. Great DE class might see him slip out of round 1 but he'll be a solid pro with his best years still in front of him.

Babylon
11-03-2012, 03:15 PM
I love the guy but top 20 is out of the question. Great DE class might see him slip out of round 1 but he'll be a solid pro with his best years still in front of him.

When you get a chance tell me more about this so called great DE class.

AntoinCD
11-04-2012, 08:28 AM
When you get a chance tell me more about this so called great DE class.

I think this DE class is as good as there has been in a long time. You have all round ends, high upside pass rushers, strong dependable ends.

When you have guys like

Barkevious Mingo
Bjoern Werner
Dion Jordan (potentially)
Sam Montgomery
Damontre Moore
Ezekial Ansah
Alex Okafor
Tank Carradine
Margus Hunt
Corey Lemonier
Michael Buchanan
William Gholston
John Simon

all as possible top 75 picks that is a pretty strong draft. You may not have a guy with the ability of Julius Peppers or Jadeveon Clowney next year but this class is stocked. It's a good year to have a need at DE

phlysac
11-04-2012, 09:22 AM
DE + Seminole = Afraid

MassNole
11-04-2012, 09:40 AM
DE + Seminole = Afraid

:facepalm:

YotoJets007
11-04-2012, 02:38 PM
DE + Seminole = Afraid


"DE + Bobby Bowden = Afraid" is more proper statement.


His weight is about 260 now. If he keeps eating right, 3-4 OLB is not out of wood.

phlysac
11-04-2012, 03:32 PM
:facepalm:

Facepalm all that you want...

Highly drafted DE/OLB prospects since 2000. I loved several of these guys. Why shouldn't I be wary?

Everette Brown
Lawrence Timmons
Kamerion Wimbley
Alonzo Jackson
Jamal Reynolds

It's not like the school would prevent me from selecting a player, but it can certainly cause for trepidation.

MassNole
11-04-2012, 04:12 PM
Facepalm all that you want...

Highly drafted DE/OLB prospects since 2000. I loved several of these guys. Why shouldn't I be wary?

Everette Brown
Lawrence Timmons
Kamerion Wimbley
Alonzo Jackson
Jamal Reynolds

It's not like the school would prevent me from selecting a player, but it can certainly cause for trepidation.

Know what they all have in common? They were coached by the old staff, so they have absolutely no relevance to the current team and player development.

PossibleCabbage
11-04-2012, 10:00 PM
I think that "player from a school" thing that worries evaluators transcends just one coaching staff.

You just need to find one really good one to disprove the notion (e.g. Rodgers proves Tedford QBs can succeed in NFL). Werner's got as good a shot as anybody from FSU.

duesouth
11-05-2012, 05:30 AM
I really like Werner, but he doesn't have the athleticism to be a truly dominant DE. Imo he's a solid second round pick right now. I like him, but he's not special.

I think he's over rated, so I agree with Razor. 8 sacks this year - 4 against Murray State, 1 against Savannah State, 1.5 against Wake Forest. Didn't have much luck against Seantrel Henderson in the Miami game - but did wear him out and had some joy late in the game - but overall I think I like Carradine a little better.

Iamcanadian
11-05-2012, 02:10 PM
I think this DE class is as good as there has been in a long time. You have all round ends, high upside pass rushers, strong dependable ends.

When you have guys like

Barkevious Mingo
Bjoern Werner
Dion Jordan (potentially)
Sam Montgomery
Damontre Moore
Ezekial Ansah
Alex Okafor
Tank Carradine
Margus Hunt
Corey Lemonier
Michael Buchanan
William Gholston
John Simon

all as possible top 75 picks that is a pretty strong draft. You may not have a guy with the ability of Julius Peppers or Jadeveon Clowney next year but this class is stocked. It's a good year to have a need at DE

I agree and you can add Jefferson of Texas as well.

I think it reflects the style of college football today. More and more college HC's are putting their better athletes at DE to slow down college passing attacks.

TuckNole
11-11-2012, 12:21 AM
I think he's over rated, so I agree with Razor. 8 sacks this year - 4 against Murray State, 1 against Savannah State, 1.5 against Wake Forest. Didn't have much luck against Seantrel Henderson in the Miami game - but did wear him out and had some joy late in the game - but overall I think I like Carradine a little better.

Except his total QB disruptions have not tailed off. He is still getting a lot of QB hurries and PBUs on batted balls, all of which are part of pass rush.

You have to look at overall QB disruptions.

87Canes
11-11-2012, 03:55 PM
From everything I've watched on Bjoern, the kid seems legit. He has various moves, doesn't get hooked by the OL often and has a high motor that keeps him going play after play. Get him in the hands of a Jim Washburn and he'll be a force to be reckoned with in the NFL for years to come.

duesouth
11-12-2012, 05:13 AM
Except his total QB disruptions have not tailed off. He is still getting a lot of QB hurries and PBUs on batted balls, all of which are part of pass rush.

You have to look at overall QB disruptions.

Looked at him closely on Thursday night and he did very little. Carradine played much better - which is the same story for all 4 FSU games I've seen this year. Detailed study has not been kind to Werner.

TuckNole
11-14-2012, 11:01 PM
Looked at him closely on Thursday night and he did very little. Carradine played much better - which is the same story for all 4 FSU games I've seen this year. Detailed study has not been kind to Werner.

Completely disagree. Detailed study makes Werner look like a top 10 pick and Carradine look like a borderline first rounder.

Carradine is an athletic freak, probably the most freakish at his position this draft, who is very very raw, with limited pass moves. Also, he is not explosive off the line at all. But once he does get going, he is hard to defend 1-1 with his athleticism and motor.

Werner is a complete technician. He has a much broader array of pass moves plays incredibly heads up. I've been watching FSU DE's for 20 years and I don't think I've ever seen one as football- smart as Werner. As Jimbo says, his instincts are off the charts. He knows when a screen is coming almost the second the ball is snapped.

If you've watched FSU's games this year, you'd definitely note ALL of the max protect double teams go to Werner's side and they leave Tank 1-1. Werner is more valuable to FSU than Tank in that fact alone... the offense is willing to dedicate 2 defenders to him on a lot of their playbook.

Pass rush isn't about just sacks, as has been noted time and again. Football Outsiders SackSEER predictive model uses several pieces of data to predict NFL production in DE's and QB hurries and PBUs are just as much apart of pass rush as sacks. Werner's numbers when you include PBUs are just crazy.

If a team is looking for a year 1 starter in the first round, you take Werner. If they want an athletic freak who they can mold and possibly end up feared in starting in year 2, go with Tank.

duesouth
11-15-2012, 04:47 AM
It's the whole beauty of this that 2 people can look at the same person and differ so much!

I know against Miami they didn't double him much. They left him 1 on 1 with Henderson and he didn't have the length to get off him. Didn't have the speed to turn the corner either. Henderson got away with it a few times because of his arm length, more than foot speed, but he still got the job done. Werner did have a sack late against him, but I think that was more he wore him out. Had half a sack against a single team TE block.

Doesn't set the edge as well as Carradine. If a blocker gets on Carradine, he drops his hips even lower and more often than not gets off the block. Sets the edge extremely well. Werner doesn't - gives up the edge too much.

I'm not saying Werner is a poor prospect, I have him as a late 1/early 2 guy - who you might take a little earlier because of the effort, hustle and love of the game.

But I think you can do more with Carradine because he's longer and plays lower. Both still have upside.

Time will tell as ever!!

TuckNole
11-19-2012, 06:17 PM
I like the way Werner sets the edge, its just that FSU gives him a lot more in terms of assignments. As Jimbo says, they kind of just let Tank freelance quite a bit.

Every week in his weekly press conference, Jimbo finds something to complain about with Carradine. He's missing this, or missing that, but he still great. He has nothing but praise for Werner, and has said he is one of the most instinctive players he's ever been around.

It should also be noted that Werner has had some mid-flu stuff off and on. He was getting IV's for 48 hours before the Clemson game.

They are both really great players. I think both would have been the #1 DE in last year's class. Who I would pick largely depends on what I need and what kind of system I'm prepared to put them into.

Babylon
11-25-2012, 02:20 PM
Was huge against Florida. Granted the Florida offensive line isn't much at pass blocking and their QB tends to hold the ball too long but this game could catapult him into that top dozen pick area.

y.f.s.
11-25-2012, 04:40 PM
Lol at the unathletic comments and Kampman comparisons. His first step is unreal. Not overly interested in playing the run, but still very active. He is Osi Umenyiora to a T.

y.f.s.
11-25-2012, 04:42 PM
It's the whole beauty of this that 2 people can look at the same person and differ so much!

I know against Miami they didn't double him much. They left him 1 on 1 with Henderson and he didn't have the length to get off him. Didn't have the speed to turn the corner either. Henderson got away with it a few times because of his arm length, more than foot speed, but he still got the job done. Werner did have a sack late against him, but I think that was more he wore him out. Had half a sack against a single team TE block.

Doesn't set the edge as well as Carradine. If a blocker gets on Carradine, he drops his hips even lower and more often than not gets off the block. Sets the edge extremely well. Werner doesn't - gives up the edge too much.

I'm not saying Werner is a poor prospect, I have him as a late 1/early 2 guy - who you might take a little earlier because of the effort, hustle and love of the game.

But I think you can do more with Carradine because he's longer and plays lower. Both still have upside.

Time will tell as ever!!

Eh, I think Carradine's pad level is the worst part of his game. Good hand strike and strength and he can jolt, but once the OT resets Tank can't do anything because he is upright and can't roll his hips.

Bengals78
11-25-2012, 10:06 PM
Lol at the unathletic comments and Kampman comparisons. His first step is unreal. Not overly interested in playing the run, but still very active. He is Osi Umenyiora to a T.

But he is white. He can't be athletic!
He has to have a high motor!

duesouth
11-26-2012, 02:17 AM
Carradine tore his ACL Saturday, day three at best then.

duesouth
11-26-2012, 02:18 AM
Eh, I think Carradine's pad level is the worst part of his game. Good hand strike and strength and he can jolt, but once the OT resets Tank can't do anything because he is upright and can't roll his hips.

Off the snap he does get a bit too high, but can sink his hips and get under people if he gets locked up. Watching the Fla/FSU game tonight, will try and note a few specific instances before he got hurt.

MassNole
11-26-2012, 02:35 PM
Werner is tied with Clowney for the national lead in Sacks with an extra game over Clowney to add to his total.

Babylon
11-26-2012, 02:42 PM
Werner is tied with Clowney for the national lead in Sacks with an extra game over Clowney to add to his total.

Which to me means nothing seeing as he got a ton of them against cupcakes at the beginning of the season. Having said that, this guy just keeps getting better and better. Not sure where he ends up but he might be the first DE off the board if you consider Jarvis Jones a LB.

MassNole
11-26-2012, 02:46 PM
Which to me means nothing seeing as he got a ton of them against cupcakes at the beginning of the season. Having said that, this guy just keeps getting better and better. Not sure where he ends up but he might be the first DE off the board if you consider Jarvis Jones a LB.

He had the same number of sacks vs. UF as he did Murray State FWIW.

y.f.s.
11-26-2012, 02:51 PM
Are we even sure that sack numbers in college necessarily correlate to pass rushing success in the pros?

Considering that a sack in and of itself can be the result of many other variables (coverage, teammate pressure, the QB holding the ball too long or sacking himself), I'm not sure that the number itself even means anything.

Werner consistently gets by his man, and he's got unreal explosiveness and flexibility, and it shows up week in and week out. That translates more to me than looking at who his sacks came against.

Babylon
11-26-2012, 02:51 PM
He had the same number of sacks vs. UF as he did Murray State FWIW.

Murray st. obviously had as good an O-line as Florida. Seriously.

Bottom line i'm not a numbers guy. Give me someone that improves and has some fire in his gut and that is what Werner is. I'll take him in New England or Seattle if he's available.

duesouth
11-26-2012, 02:53 PM
Best I've seen Werner play this year. Final sack was just fantastic - great stutter step move and then explosion. Good hand use on his first.

Did give up the edge a couple of times - 6:12 remaining 1st quarter - pulling G and FB between them dealt with him; 5:59 remaining in the second quarter, just overpowered and had his back to his blocker - not great.

But on this performance nit picking.

MassNole
11-26-2012, 04:53 PM
He also played 4-5 games with a cast on his hand, not coincidentally when his numbers dipped.