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draftguru151
04-02-2007, 11:19 AM
There are about 3 or so threads in the nfl draft section about the Dolphins. The general theme with a few of you is Ted Ginn at #9. I really want to know your explanation of why we should take this guy over any of the other players, especially Robert Meachem. Most of you guys see Ginn's highlights and think this guy is an amazing player because he is fast, the thing is Ginn has so many HUGE weaknesses. He is very undersized, doesn't run good routes and doesn't have good hands. Other than Levi Brown I think Ginn would be the biggest mistake we could make.

Finsfan79
04-02-2007, 02:50 PM
Ginn bad

It isnt even a good type of alcohol


I am on the anti-ginn group as well draftguru (even though we rarely agree).

I would rather draft even a Willis there just for a stud to replace Zach then Ginn.

Joeyjr09
04-02-2007, 03:01 PM
The only way I say we draft Ginn is if he falls into the 2nd round where his return ability will be worth a 2nd alone. Outside of that, Brady Quinn, Alan Branch, Leon Hall, Jamaal Anderson, Robert Mecheam, LaRon Landry, even Patrick Willis and Darrelle Revis are better options then Ted Ginn.

I'mAHustler
04-02-2007, 04:30 PM
I concur. Ted Ginn would be a terrible pick, with the newly "Win Now" mentality drafting him would not be a correct choice. How fearless has he proven to be for going over the middle? For all the speed he has, is he even a slasher? Most of the time when he's scoring TDs, he's running in one straight line...

dolphinfan2k5
04-03-2007, 10:09 PM
Mueller has said time and again that he would like to improve team speed, so you have to assume that Ted Ginn is a possibility at 9. Add that too the fact that he could come in immediately and have an impact as a PR/KR and also play some flanker which would allow Chambers to move back to the position where he had the most success, the slot, and you have to think Ginn garners quite strong interest at 9. Also, where are you getting that Ginn has bad hands? From watching him, he has good hands for a person that that fast that doesn't decelerate when making a catch.

thebow305
04-03-2007, 10:34 PM
Mueller has said time and again that he would like to improve team speed, so you have to assume that Ted Ginn is a possibility at 9. Add that too the fact that he could come in immediately and have an impact as a PR/KR and also play some flanker which would allow Chambers to move back to the position where he had the most success, the slot, and you have to think Ginn garners quite strong interest at 9. Also, where are you getting that Ginn has bad hands? From watching him, he has good hands for a person that that fast that doesn't decelerate when making a catch.

Agree completely.

guru, I agree, he does have a bunch of weaknesses, but all those things are coachable. He can be taught to run crisper routes and to catch the ball different. What you can't teach him is what he already possesses. The ability to make plays. He is a game-changer. A true playmaker with god given ability and speed completely unmatched by anyone else in the NFL, besides maybe Champ, MAYBE. Chambers has said he wants Ginn and I believe it to be because he is just begging for some help on offense. Some consistency. Ginn can come right in and play the slot, catch passes out of the backfield, run gadgets, and give us an immediate impact player on special teams as a returner. I have said this time and time again, he is the biggest impact player in this draft not named Calvin Johnson. He can be coached and that's what will happen. He will be a great player and why not choose a great player.

Who would you rather have? Leon Hall? who isn't even the sure top player at his position. Who the scouts have said is solid at everything but not GREAT at anything, and will never be a shutdown corner in the league. Why would we want that? Okoye doesn't fit our Defense. Alan Branch is not a need considering all the young players we have brought in and accumulated over the years to sure up that position already. You already know why Levi shouldn't be the pick.

The only player I would say should be the pick over Ginn would be LaRon Landry. But my guess is he will already be gone by the time we pick. So unless we trade down, Ginn should be the pick. I believe he is the safest and will make the biggest impact for us right away. Ginn for the Phins in 07 baby!

Joeyjr09
04-04-2007, 12:12 AM
Bow, I'll take a complete football player that can handle all aspects of the game and will make a bigger immediate impact then a WR will. Talent isn't every and Ginn has alot fo weaknesses. For all your talk about Ginn being the fastest player in the NFL outside of Champ, you raelly have no idea. He hasn't run a 40 yet. HE seems faster then all the other players and plays fast but the NFL is a much faster game then college. What would you be saying if Ginn came out and ran a 4.36 40. While still very good, I'd rather have Mecheam and his 4.39 40.

The fact that you even said Ginn was one of the safest picks we can make is absurd. The guy is too hurt to do anything in the combine or pro days. How exactly is that safe? Theres more questions about his route running, small frame, and other areas that many of the other WRs in this draft. On top of the fact WR is already the more unsafe position in the draft, Calvin Johnson, Robert Mecheam, Dwyane Bowe, Anthony Gonzalez and Sidney Rice are all safer options. They might not all be as fast or talented but they are definately considered safer at this point. This is a draft that needs to produce a big performer and quick impact and Ginn has the making of a guy that will need work before he is will do anything outside of KR/PR in the NFL.

thebow305
04-04-2007, 01:06 AM
Bow, I'll take a complete football player that can handle all aspects of the game and will make a bigger immediate impact then a WR will. Talent isn't every and Ginn has alot fo weaknesses. For all your talk about Ginn being the fastest player in the NFL outside of Champ, you raelly have no idea. He hasn't run a 40 yet. HE seems faster then all the other players and plays fast but the NFL is a much faster game then college. What would you be saying if Ginn came out and ran a 4.36 40. While still very good, I'd rather have Mecheam and his 4.39 40.

The fact that you even said Ginn was one of the safest picks we can make is absurd. The guy is too hurt to do anything in the combine or pro days. How exactly is that safe? Theres more questions about his route running, small frame, and other areas that many of the other WRs in this draft. On top of the fact WR is already the more unsafe position in the draft, Calvin Johnson, Robert Mecheam, Dwyane Bowe, Anthony Gonzalez and Sidney Rice are all safer options. They might not all be as fast or talented but they are definately considered safer at this point. This is a draft that needs to produce a big performer and quick impact and Ginn has the making of a guy that will need work before he is will do anything outside of KR/PR in the NFL.

That's just it though.. that's where his impact will be made.... as a KR/PR, at least right away. We saw it with Devin Hester last year, he won games single-handedly for the bears last year. Ginn can do that for us, plus he is more explosive and hits the hole quicker than Devin Hester. You ask what if he runs a 4.36 40? If he does he does, who cares. We all know he is faster than that. He will run faster than that for sure though, if he doesn't it's because of that strained ankle not being 100%. Heck, every draftnik that knows Ginn says he has World Class speed, so i'm not just making this up, i've seen it everywhere, plus I've watched every game he's played at Ohio State, in depth. But on that subject, I think Hester ran in the mid 4.4's last year, I think almost a 4.5, same thing as Roscoe Parrish when he came out, and both are ELITE returners, so that doesn't mean anything. It's game speed. And Ginn has it. We will see on Sundays. You hate on this man too much, all of you, and all he has ever done is make plays. You can't possibly tell me you would rather have Sidney Rice or Gonzo or Bowe over Ginn. If you do, you need to get you're pulse checked. That's all I gotta say about that.

draftguru151
04-04-2007, 10:08 AM
First off, Devin Hester ran a 4.27 at his pro day. Roscoe ran a 4.40

You do now take a KR at #9 overall. There are a boatload of guys that can return kicks that can be picked up 2nd day. Ryne Robinson, Steve Breaston, Yamon Figurs, and don't say those guys aren't as dominant as KR as Ginn because all have as many TDs and only Robinson has a lower average.

As a WR Ginn has to many holes to be worthy of the 9th overall pick. If hands are coachable tell that to Troy Williamson. Route running is coachable to an extent but the problem with Ginn is he is a strider and not quick so him running crisp routes is going to be very hard. For Ginn being such a big time playmaker and a guy that can take it to the end zone all the time his ypc isn't very high. He averages 13 ypc, Meachem averages 18. Meachem can burn people just like Ginn, but he can also do other things, Ginn can't. Ginn doesn't juke people, he isn't that good on screens unless he can just run. You can't just run by people in the NFL.

As for who else I would have, at WR, I'd rather have both Meachem and Bowe. I'd also rather have Joe Staley or Greg Olsen. On defense I would take Leon Hall or Chris Houston over Ginn. As for Hall, who says that? Listen to people who know what they are talking about, Hall is the consensus #1 CB. Mel Kiper has one CB in his top 25, at #9, Leon Hall. Mike Mayock says he is the consensus #1 CB. No one else in this class is on his level. There is no such thing as a lock down CB anymore. Even Champ Bailey gets burnt (quite a bit 2 seasons ago), Leon Hall is ready to step in day 1 and start at CB and be at worst the #2 CB. Hall has nearly everything you look for in a CB. I'm realizing you are just an OSU homer and you probably hate Michigan players but Hall is way better than Ginn as a prospect.

thebow305
04-04-2007, 10:22 AM
First off, Devin Hester ran a 4.27 at his pro day. Roscoe ran a 4.40

You do now take a KR at #9 overall. There are a boatload of guys that can return kicks that can be picked up 2nd day. Ryne Robinson, Steve Breaston, Yamon Figurs, and don't say those guys aren't as dominant as KR as Ginn because all have as many TDs and only Robinson has a lower average.

As a WR Ginn has to many holes to be worthy of the 9th overall pick. If hands are coachable tell that to Troy Williamson. Route running is coachable to an extent but the problem with Ginn is he is a strider and not quick so him running crisp routes is going to be very hard. For Ginn being such a big time playmaker and a guy that can take it to the end zone all the time his ypc isn't very high. He averages 13 ypc, Meachem averages 18. Meachem can burn people just like Ginn, but he can also do other things, Ginn can't. Ginn doesn't juke people, he isn't that good on screens unless he can just run. You can't just run by people in the NFL.

As for who else I would have, at WR, I'd rather have both Meachem and Bowe. I'd also rather have Joe Staley or Greg Olsen. On defense I would take Leon Hall or Chris Houston over Ginn. As for Hall, who says that? Listen to people who know what they are talking about, Hall is the consensus #1 CB. Mel Kiper has one CB in his top 25, at #9, Leon Hall. Mike Mayock says he is the consensus #1 CB. No one else in this class is on his level. There is no such thing as a lock down CB anymore. Even Champ Bailey gets burnt (quite a bit 2 seasons ago), Leon Hall is ready to step in day 1 and start at CB and be at worst the #2 CB. Hall has nearly everything you look for in a CB. I'm realizing you are just an OSU homer and you probably hate Michigan players but Hall is way better than Ginn as a prospect.

THat was cute. It made me chuckle... thank you. And no I'm not an OSU homer. I actually HATE the buckeyes. I am a Hurricanes fan.

I just think Ted Ginn will be a GREAT player in the NFL, and for all your hating on him with his route running and ability to catch the ball, he did have his best games against the two top corners in this years draft. Vs. Michigan and Leon Hall and also Vs. Texas and Aaron Ross. Especially Aaron Ross, who he made his ***** for the night. Oh and I think Aaron Ross went on to win the Thorpe award for the top defensive back. If my memory serves me correct.

So keep hatin on him.... we'll see.

thebow305
04-04-2007, 10:23 AM
First off, Devin Hester ran a 4.27 at his pro day. Roscoe ran a 4.40

You do now take a KR at #9 overall. There are a boatload of guys that can return kicks that can be picked up 2nd day. Ryne Robinson, Steve Breaston, Yamon Figurs, and don't say those guys aren't as dominant as KR as Ginn because all have as many TDs and only Robinson has a lower average.

As a WR Ginn has to many holes to be worthy of the 9th overall pick. If hands are coachable tell that to Troy Williamson. Route running is coachable to an extent but the problem with Ginn is he is a strider and not quick so him running crisp routes is going to be very hard. For Ginn being such a big time playmaker and a guy that can take it to the end zone all the time his ypc isn't very high. He averages 13 ypc, Meachem averages 18. Meachem can burn people just like Ginn, but he can also do other things, Ginn can't. Ginn doesn't juke people, he isn't that good on screens unless he can just run. You can't just run by people in the NFL.

As for who else I would have, at WR, I'd rather have both Meachem and Bowe. I'd also rather have Joe Staley or Greg Olsen. On defense I would take Leon Hall or Chris Houston over Ginn. As for Hall, who says that? Listen to people who know what they are talking about, Hall is the consensus #1 CB. Mel Kiper has one CB in his top 25, at #9, Leon Hall. Mike Mayock says he is the consensus #1 CB. No one else in this class is on his level. There is no such thing as a lock down CB anymore. Even Champ Bailey gets burnt (quite a bit 2 seasons ago), Leon Hall is ready to step in day 1 and start at CB and be at worst the #2 CB. Hall has nearly everything you look for in a CB. I'm realizing you are just an OSU homer and you probably hate Michigan players but Hall is way better than Ginn as a prospect.

THat was cute. It made me chuckle... thank you. And no I'm not an OSU homer. I actually HATE the buckeyes. I am a Hurricanes fan.

I just think Ted Ginn will be a GREAT player in the NFL, and for all your hating on him with his route running and ability to catch the ball, he did have his best games against the two top corners in this years draft. Vs. Michigan and Leon Hall and also Vs. Texas and Aaron Ross. Especially Aaron Ross, who he made his ***** for the night. Oh and I think Aaron Ross went on to win the Thorpe award for the top defensive back. If my memory serves me correct.

So keep hatin on him.... we'll see. Hope you like the new sig, by the way.

draftguru151
04-04-2007, 12:27 PM
Ted Ginn beat up on Morgan Trent for the most part against UM and Terrell Brown from UT. He beat Hall and Ross as well, but for the most part it were the other two. Having college success means very little, he beats people in college because of his speed, that will not work in the NFL. You hate OSU but you've watched Ginn in every game in depth? Yea, that's doubtful. If you did you would know what's wrong with him. More like you've seen his highlights.

I'mAHustler
04-04-2007, 12:51 PM
I came back in here to pretty much post the same thing as guru. He has not shown a dynamic talent for getting open without his speed (that is particularily nil and void in the NFL) and his hands are suspect, contrary to popular belief hands are not generally taught in the NFL, a few teams have execrises to improve the ability I can't remember which, but it is mostly left to the receiver themselves.

thebow305
04-04-2007, 02:40 PM
Ted Ginn beat up on Morgan Trent for the most part against UM and Terrell Brown from UT. He beat Hall and Ross as well, but for the most part it were the other two. Having college success means very little, he beats people in college because of his speed, that will not work in the NFL. You hate OSU but you've watched Ginn in every game in depth? Yea, that's doubtful. If you did you would know what's wrong with him. More like you've seen his highlights.

I watched him because I love him as a prospect. And no..... Brown was out for that game against OSU.... I know that. He beat up on Ross all day and Gonzo beat up on the guy replacing Brown. I know that for a FACT. I'm not so sure about the Michigan game but I know I saw him beat Leon Hall a couple times. And yes I do know him and his weaknesses. I don't understand why you believe you know everything, becasue you don't. That statement proves it. It's not the fact that he had success in college, he had success against college players that are NFL prospects as well, the best ones at that with Hall and Ross. And coming from the Big Ten, he faced NFL calibre defenses week in and week out. Which makes me believe he can and will have success in the pros. Once again. Just keep hatin. Did Ted Ginn kill your whole family or something, because that's how you make it sound. He was a great player in college and will be the same in the NFL. Believe it

Oh and here's some proof for you.....

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/photo/2006-09/25304461.jpg

draftguru151
04-04-2007, 03:09 PM
I said he beat Ross as well, he beat him for the TD before the half, but he wasn't on him all game. He had 2 catches on Hall, one was the PA TD when it was the safety and Hall tried to make a play, and the other was a skinny post where he beat Hall with speed. Other than that he beat up on Trent. I forgot about Brown being hurt, but I know he wasn't on Ross all game (I don't like Ross anyway). Ginn is successful in college because of his speed. He burns people. That will not work in the NFL. He is too small to not run good routes or have good hands.

thebow305
04-04-2007, 03:18 PM
I said he beat Ross as well, he beat him for the TD before the half, but he wasn't on him all game. He had 2 catches on Hall, one was the PA TD when it was the safety and Hall tried to make a play, and the other was a skinny post where he beat Hall with speed. Other than that he beat up on Trent. I forgot about Brown being hurt, but I know he wasn't on Ross all game (I don't like Ross anyway). Ginn is successful in college because of his speed. He burns people. That will not work in the NFL. He is too small to not run good routes or have good hands.

Why do I always have to repeat myself. 4.2 is 4.2, college or pros. That will be hard to keep up with for any type of players. That's the speed he possesses and he has beaten NFL-calibre defenses in the Big Ten, with the likes of Michigan being one of them. What makes you believe with that being said that he can't run by Asante Samuel or David Barrett or Terrence McGee or Andre Dyson. The Corners of the AFC east won't touch Ginn. That's how it will work in the NFL.

draftguru151
04-04-2007, 04:26 PM
How many times do I have to repeat myself, you can't run by everyone in the NFL like you can in college.

Athrun340
04-04-2007, 04:28 PM
ok how about Ted Ginn as a defensive back discussion?

any info how good he is as a cornerback?

draftguru151
04-04-2007, 04:33 PM
If Ted Ginn played CB in college you have no idea how bad I would want him. He was amazing in high school. Literally shut down half the field. Damn you OSU.

Joeyjr09
04-04-2007, 04:56 PM
Bottom line is that Ginn is not worth the number 9 overall pick. He is not nearly the complete WR that most of the othe propsects in this draft are. It usually takes about 2 or 3 years for a WR to make an impact in the NFL and the fact that Ginn is raw in alot of areas will make him even less likely to hlep right now. You don't take a guy in the top 10 for his kick return ability.

dolphinfan2k5
04-04-2007, 05:51 PM
As a WR Ginn has to many holes to be worthy of the 9th overall pick. If hands are coachable tell that to Troy Williamson. Route running is coachable to an extent but the problem with Ginn is he is a strider and not quick so him running crisp routes is going to be very hard. For Ginn being such a big time playmaker and a guy that can take it to the end zone all the time his ypc isn't very high. He averages 13 ypc, Meachem averages 18. Meachem can burn people just like Ginn, but he can also do other things, Ginn can't. Ginn doesn't juke people, he isn't that good on screens unless he can just run. You can't just run by people in the NFL.


Ginn isn't quick? Where are you getting that? He has remarkable acceleration and loses almost no speed when cutting...

Athrun340
04-04-2007, 06:10 PM
Ginn isn't quick? Where are you getting that? He has remarkable acceleration and loses almost no speed when cutting...

Ginn has an average agility compare to reggie bush ..

he just simply outruns everybody

thebow305
04-04-2007, 06:43 PM
Ginn isn't quick? Where are you getting that? He has remarkable acceleration and loses almost no speed when cutting...

You're absolutely right.

thebow305
04-04-2007, 06:46 PM
Ginn has an average agility compare to reggie bush ..

he just simply outruns everybody

Why did you even bother posting this?

You obviously have never watched him play. While I agree his agility isn't as good as Reggie, I don't think anyone's is. But he is still VERY agile and makes crisps cuts while losing absolutely no speed. (Like stated above)

thebow305
04-04-2007, 06:48 PM
If Ted Ginn played CB in college you have no idea how bad I would want him. He was amazing in high school. Literally shut down half the field. Damn you OSU.

Good point. And hey, if we drafted him... who is to say we don't test that. Since everyone is so down on his ability to be a good reciever at the next level. Let's let him be a returner and test his cover abilities in practice. That guy from the bears Rashied Davis used to be a corner... now he's a solid slot reciever for them..... we could do the opposite with Ginn. It's possible. He could be *gasp* Primetime-like.

Athrun340
04-04-2007, 08:33 PM
Why did you even bother posting this?

You obviously have never watched him play. While I agree his agility isn't as good as Reggie, I don't think anyone's is. But he is still VERY agile and makes crisps cuts while losing absolutely no speed. (Like stated above)


there's no way I'm gonna win againts a Ginn nuthugger.

I was just stating the fact btw.

draftguru151
04-04-2007, 09:02 PM
Ginn is not shifty. He has world class speed but he doesn't juke people, he runs by them. Steve Smith is shifty, DeSean Jackson is shifty, Ginn, is fast.

I'mAHustler
04-04-2007, 09:15 PM
You can only say Ginn close to Reggie if you only watch highlights.

Ronnie Brown
04-04-2007, 09:30 PM
Alright guys, as many of you know I am a Tedd Ginn Jr. supporter but I did some digging up and here is the "read" that sold me on Ginn.

It was written by a well respected, knowledgable guy over at Finheaven (Boomer) who is usually dead on with his predictions. He has a lot of connections in the NFL and with the Dolphins front office so he comes on every now and then to give us some information. I think he has a previous history with scouting too so he stays in contact with a lot of people who look at the draftees on a daily basis.

Here is his post on Ginn..

In the past 3 hours, whilst chatting draft with CK, I've been watching highlights of Ted Ginn Jr. both at OSU and at high school.

I see no way that Miami should pass on him, unless Brady Quinn gets to pick 7. I managed to go 19 minutes and saw him tackled twice. TWO times. 2. In almost 20 minutes. And this was a clip reel, not an individual game tape.

He is as phenomenal an athlete as Calvin Johnson. His open field ability is better than anything I think I've ever seen and I've been doing this draft thing for a long time now. What he can do with his body at top speed is off the charts. To change direction, to flip his hips, to control his body and still create yardage, all at high speed, is a joy to watch. The footwork is remarkable.

He can reverse a field and out run an entire defense, he can take a reverse , give a defense 10 yards in ground lost and still make the corner before anyone else. When he puts his head down and hits full speed, it's over.

Ginn reminds me of Terry Glenn, his rookie year when he had 92 catches, but quicker. People talk about his inability to run routes, but I say hold on; look what he does on those routes. He may not conventionally run them the way say a Hines Ward does, but he is still effective and he can't be stopped when used correctly.

People say he can't play press. Well put on the tape of the Texas game. Man coverage against Aaron Ross. Ross, BTW is a great man cover corner, strong at the LOS and very fast. Oh and he won the Thorpe Award. He goes to knock Ginn off his route at the snap and Teddy gives him 3 moves that leave a very good corner, a guy I like a lot, grasping for air as he blows by him for 6. Watch the Cincy game. Antoine Horton does the same thing. But Horton gets his hand on him and pushes him out to the sideline, knocks the timing. Then Ginn gives him a move, a subtle move and then they go out of the shot. Troy Smith steps up, launches the ball down the left sideline and when they come into shot, Ginn has 8 yards on Horton. TD. Over.

Him not working out is a blessing in a way. He would run a 4.2. No doubt. The Combine heads, the coaches that love the 40's and the splits, they rue that BCS injury because it stopped two things happening; potentially robbed them of the fastest time at the Combine. And robbed them of breaking the fastest 10 yard split time held by Deion Sanders and Jevon Kearse. I think it's likely that he won't run at all before the draft, so we won't get the true chance to see just how quick he is.

Would I have concerns about him running the comeback? Maybe. But he's the son of one of the best coaches in Ohio. This cat knows how to run routes. When you're so fluid as a runner, so quick, then commitment to perfect routes is not nearly as big an issue as it is for a 4.55 guy like Courtney Taylor for example.

I wouldn't have any concerns about using him as a flanker, in the slot, on middle screens, on reverses, I would line him up at QB and get him to run out of a single wing formation. You could get the ball in his hands 12/15 times on offense, no problems at all. And as a return man, Devin Hester is good, but Hester didn't lead the nation in punt return average, he didn't lead the nation in kick return average, his career punt average as a collegian was less than Ginn's, as was his career kick return average. And Teddy scored more touchdowns as well.

And last time I looked, that's what it's all about.

And yes he's skinny but watch tape on him. He breaks more tackles than anyone I can think of. And it's not just walk on safeties. It's top quality linebackers and corners. You better be grounded and have your hips LOW if you're going to take him down one on one. His ability in the open field is like something few teams have. I can't remember the last time Miami did. And as I've said before, the 'Reggie Bush' effect on each play, knowing where he is, what he's doing, will open up huge opportunities, not only for the other wideouts, but for Ronnie and Ricky as well. Why? You can't play him in man without safety help. You just can't.

If Miami have seen Brady Quinn go off the board before 7, then unless I'm getting a blockbuster deal, or a deal that affords me the chance to slip down 3 or 4 and still get him, then I'm all over Theodore Ginn Jr. like a cheap suit. I'm convinced that he can have a tremendous impact on this team, if used correctly. And Cam Cameron is an offensive mastermind.

It could easily be a very lethal combination.

Amazing read and great points on why Ginn would be a great pick..
Major props to Boomer

BiggerFoot
04-04-2007, 09:50 PM
Ginn is a great prospect and in my mind is going to turn out to be a great WR and KR but I think that the #9 pick in the draft is too high for him. Maybe the Dolphins should trade down to somewhere around the 15-20 area if they want to draft him. Ginn will likely still be there and they could get some extra pick(s).
The Pro-Ginn arguement can be backed by referring to Steve Smith
The Anti-Ginn arguement can be backed with the Troy Williamson reference

Personally I think Ginn will probably not be a great #1 WR but rather a great #2 or slot WR. If you can get overly physical with Ginn he will struggle but it only takes Ginn one play with just a little bit of room to get up to speed and poof TD.

And to the arguement that his speed won't stick out as much, 4.2 speed is 4.2 speed no matter where you are and he will still be able to get by most with his speed.

thebow305
04-05-2007, 09:41 AM
there's no way I'm gonna win againts a Ginn nuthugger.

I was just stating the fact btw.

Of course you're not gonna win when you know nothing about the subject, and I do. Simple as that.

thebow305
04-05-2007, 09:49 AM
Alright guys, as many of you know I am a Tedd Ginn Jr. supporter but I did some digging up and here is the "read" that sold me on Ginn.

It was written by a well respected, knowledgable guy over at Finheaven (Boomer) who is usually dead on with his predictions. He has a lot of connections in the NFL and with the Dolphins front office so he comes on every now and then to give us some information. I think he has a previous history with scouting too so he stays in contact with a lot of people who look at the draftees on a daily basis.

Here is his post on Ginn..



Amazing read and great points on why Ginn would be a great pick..
Major props to Boomer

GREAT post Ronnie... very refreshing to read. After reading that I am even more convinced than I was. And with that, I don't see how the pick can be argued with anymore, it would truly be a great selection for us. I really really hope it happens... It would be the **STEAL** of the draft at number 9.

Joeyjr09
04-05-2007, 11:37 AM
Some of the points in his favor are downright rediculous. The one article that was posted said he can completely change field and run away from the entire defense. Can we get real here. He has great speed but it's very, very rare to see a play like that happen in the NFL as the competition is faster and smarter which will put them in better positions to keep his speed in check.

Also I've seen everyone on here talking about how he has 4.2 speed and all sorts of mess. You all realize he hasn't worked out yet and won't work out until April 12th. What happens if he shows up to that workout and runs only a 4.35 or something in that range. He will still be fast but not so much so then many other players in this draft and will send his stock plummeting. Also, he's been out for almost 3 and a half months trying to get healthy. The injury he suffer in the game was a mild ankle injury which most NFL players can bounce back from quickly. He hasn't been able to because it takes away the only thing hes got in his favor. Sorry but there way too many issues surrounding this guy to justify taking him with the 9th pick.

His route running, physicality, health are all questions and his speed will not be able to cover up all those areas like the did in college were he could run away from inferior competition. I know 4.2 speed is 4.2 speed but NFL defense will be able to create packages to help nuetralize his speed the way college teams can not. Now if you get a WR with some speed, better route running and the ability to go up and make a catch, and some size (Bowe, Mecheam, CJ) and suddenly they become harder to cover then a guy that simply has great speed.

Finsfan79
04-05-2007, 12:42 PM
Randall Hill part 2

If you like I can find his autographed photo somewhere in my garage. Might as well as Ginn Jr is pretty much a carbon copy of him.

Ronnie Brown
04-05-2007, 01:45 PM
Randall Hill part 2

If you like I can find his autographed photo somewhere in my garage. Might as well as Ginn Jr is pretty much a carbon copy of him.

Damn.. Maybe you should call up the Dolphins Front Office and let them know so we don't draft the second coming of Randall Hill..

Don't be selfish man.. Help our Dolphins out and relay this information to Randy Mueller!!!

Finsfan79
04-05-2007, 04:45 PM
Damn.. Maybe you should call up the Dolphins Front Office and let them know so we don't draft the second coming of Randall Hill..

Don't be selfish man.. Help our Dolphins out and relay this information to Randy Mueller!!!

Only if you do the same when you keep wishing to take him for no more reason then "he is a good kick returner"

Because top 10 picks are done for kick returners.

As for my opinion of what is good for the team and my team support I show it when I go to every home game with my season tickets my family has had since the early 80s.

thebow305
04-05-2007, 10:31 PM
Only if you do the same when you keep wishing to take him for no more reason then "he is a good kick returner"

Because top 10 picks are done for kick returners.

As for my opinion of what is good for the team and my team support I show it when I go to every home game with my season tickets my family has had since the early 80s.

*Clap Clap Clap*

Can someone get this guy a friggin cookie please!?

Ronnie Brown
04-06-2007, 12:27 AM
Only if you do the same when you keep wishing to take him for no more reason then "he is a good kick returner"

Because top 10 picks are done for kick returners.

As for my opinion of what is good for the team and my team support I show it when I go to every home game with my season tickets my family has had since the early 80s.

Haha first off.. I'd love for you to point out where I state that we should draft Ginn due to his kicking abilities..? or where I said top 10 picks are done for kick returners? I really don't recall ever saying anything like that..

Ginn's kick return abilities are simply an added incentive to his already unique array of talents...

Finsfan79
04-06-2007, 07:23 AM
It is his only good talent. If you look at him as a pure WR he wasnt even as good as Gonzalez was for OSU.

Grizzlegom
04-06-2007, 09:28 AM
some problems i have with drafting Ted Ginn Jr at number nine.

1. If you are drafting a player in the top ten, you want IMMEDIATE returns and someone who can step in and start day one. Dont get me wrong, we will get immediate returns in the return game, but he would only see the field on offense in 3 or 4 receiver sets.

2. at this point in time, He is a pure slot receiver. If you line him up outside, he gets manhandled by physical corners. If you think otherwise, then you didnt watch enough game tape. people are talking about the texas and michigan game, but what about the penn state game? or minnesota? or illinois even? last year alan zemaitis shut him down and this year justin king held him to 2 catches. the problem with him being a pure slot receiver right now is that it would give chambers zero help. on three WR sets, chambers (who is the most effective in the slot) will have to stay outside because ginn wouldnt be able to line up out there. one of the reasons for trading welker was that we could put chambers back in the slot. drafting ginn completely goes against that.

3. is he really dedicated to football? he has shown a very poor work ethic since his injury and has been very lackadaisical about trying to get healthy and run. ever since being moved to WR in college he has shown less passion for the game and always expresses how he still sees himself as a corner and he seemed to take some plays off throughout the season because he isnt very happy in his position. he is very adamant about wanting to re-learn CB in the pros and learning a new position, when you already have glaring weaknesses at your current position is just gonna further hinder his development.

there are way too many ifs and questions surrounding his game to justify him being taken in the top ten and i think he would be the biggest mistake we could make. i view ginn as a top 25 pick and i would consider it a HUGE reach if we took him.

dolphinfan2k5
04-10-2007, 07:19 PM
Ginn is coming to have a meeting with Miami on the 19th or 20th... That will be his 4th meeting.

1. Combine
2. OSU's Pro Day
3. Ginn's workout on the 11th
4. Meeting on the 19th or 20th

Joeyjr09
04-10-2007, 08:56 PM
Every team in the NFL was present at the 1st 3 so you can't really include those. Miami has really only had one more meeting then some teams and even then alot of teams will set up meeting with Ginn.

Finsfan79
04-11-2007, 08:54 AM
Miami is meeting with Russell too I guess it is assumed we are taking him too? :) It would be his 4th meeting as well.


With Chambers, Hakeem, Booker, Hagan (whom they are high on), and Vick, it comes down to WR isnt a primary need yet.

Now having an offensive line to let us run the ball and protect whomver we have throwing it would be useful. Right now we dont have a tackle or guard on the left hand side that has played a pro down (toledo and albai both are raw as can be), so I think you can easily say there is more pressing needs for us.

If it wants to be argued BPA, not sure how someone can argue Ginn is a better BPA then a branch/okoye/Anderson type of player which are much higher rated elite disruptive folks. Specially with the depth in the draft.

Finsfan79
04-11-2007, 01:15 PM
http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6313

if this is true you can have Ginn Jr, in the 2nd round

draftguru151
04-11-2007, 03:05 PM
Hello round 2. 4.2 speed, lol.

I am being somewhat sarcastic, he is coming off of an injury but still. He will be a late round 1 guy.

keylime_5
04-11-2007, 03:54 PM
Ginn Jr. ran a 4.38 with a still hurt foot. He's the fastest player in the draft, brother. His foot is still hurting to the point that he fell down on 5 of his 6 routes before the rest of the workout was cancelled. He's still going 9th, I don't think they'll be too concerned about his injury except for the fact that he might miss some of camp and is not a fast healer.

And what is this junk everyone's talking about on Ginn not having the juke or agility? I see tape after tape of the kid returning punts and he's running straight at a guy and then - swoop he flew right by him with one move. He has an amazing fast side juke, but he's not like Barry Sanders where he'll do that stutter step and then turn, he's not a stop and go juker, he jukes while still accelerating.

I watch pretty much every game Ginn ever played, he and Reggie Bush were the 2 most exciting playmakers in College Football since 2004 by far. If/when you guys take Ginn in the first, prepare for a bunch of 40 yard TDs and monster returns kinda like Joey Galloway or Steve Smith. (geez everyone seems to hate TG2 on this one message board probably because of Scott maybe)

Joeyjr09
04-11-2007, 07:12 PM
You said Ginn ran a 4.38 with his foot hurt which makes him the fast player in the draft. But you know what you missed. HE IS STILL HURT. It's been 4 months already. It was a sprained ankle. No team is gonan wanna invest a high draft pick on a guy that built for speed but misses 4 months with a sprained ankle. 6 year old girls aren't out that long with a sprained ankle.

Espn is reporting he ran between 4.37 and 4.45. That's even slower then some of the other drafts WR prospects and on par with a bunch of others. While I expect his speed to improve some when he's healthy, I don't think it's a big enough difference to ignore his problems in other areas and shoot him into the top 10.

Ronnie Brown
04-11-2007, 07:40 PM
On April 11, Ginn -- who did not run at the Combine or OSU's Pro Day -- worked out on campus before representatives of most of the NFL teams. He ran his 40s in 4.38, 4.44 and 4.45 seconds. He ran no shuttles and did no jumps, and because of his sore foot, stopped running routes after doing about 20 of them. Three head coaches were there: Scott Linehan (Rams), Marvin Lewis (Bengals) and Cam Cameron (Dolphins). Also there were Dolphins general manager Randy Mueller and Rams vice president for player personnel Tony Softli.

The Dolphins' interest in Ginn was definately there and probably still is.

draftguru151
04-11-2007, 07:45 PM
Ginn Jr. ran a 4.38 with a still hurt foot. He's the fastest player in the draft, brother. His foot is still hurting to the point that he fell down on 5 of his 6 routes before the rest of the workout was cancelled. He's still going 9th, I don't think they'll be too concerned about his injury except for the fact that he might miss some of camp and is not a fast healer.

And what is this junk everyone's talking about on Ginn not having the juke or agility? I see tape after tape of the kid returning punts and he's running straight at a guy and then - swoop he flew right by him with one move. He has an amazing fast side juke, but he's not like Barry Sanders where he'll do that stutter step and then turn, he's not a stop and go juker, he jukes while still accelerating.

I watch pretty much every game Ginn ever played, he and Reggie Bush were the 2 most exciting playmakers in College Football since 2004 by far. If/when you guys take Ginn in the first, prepare for a bunch of 40 yard TDs and monster returns kinda like Joey Galloway or Steve Smith. (geez everyone seems to hate TG2 on this one message board probably because of Scott maybe)

Ginn doesn't juke, he goes from going fast at one angle, and then changes his angle a little bit and because he is so fast people can't adjust. Reggie Bush jukes people, Devin Hester jukes people, Ted Ginn runs by them.

And maybe people don't like Ginn because he isn't a very good receiver. And don't give me the he's only been a WR for 3 years crap because the same things were said before the season and he made very little improvement. No doubt the potential is there because of the athleticism, but it takes a lot more than speed to be a WR in the NFL.

keylime_5
04-11-2007, 07:48 PM
He does outrun people, but he makes some amazing instride cuts, or jukes if you will, that are amazing. His agility is outta this world. He doesn't dance around like Bush, but he still jukes past people. If you see the tape I've seen you'd know what I'm talking about.

Not to mention he weaves through traffic like it's nothing. For the people who say that his speed won't matter in the NFL b/c everyone's got it, well tell me what good those people with the 4.3 and 4.4 straight line speed will do against Ginn when he's go the angle in space with the ball......it won't matter. The only way the speed of NFL DBs matters is in man coverage, and those guys will have to be tip top in the coverage part because recovery speed is useless against Teddy.

draftguru151
04-11-2007, 08:49 PM
Speed isn't useless, whoever said that is a moron, but speed by itself is worthless.

Ronnie Brown
04-11-2007, 09:30 PM
Speed isn't useless, whoever said that is a moron, but speed by itself is worthless.

I agree, and I'll add one more thing..

you can't teach speed..

keylime_5
04-11-2007, 09:41 PM
Good, because Ginn has more than speed. He has elusiveness, agility, vision, quickness in small areas, and he is a multidimensional threat.

keylime_5
04-11-2007, 09:42 PM
...And speed by itself isn't worthless. Once you got that everything else can come after. Ginn's only been a WR for 3 years. His WRs coach Darrell Hazell said his routes were terrific for a guy of his experience

I'mAHustler
04-12-2007, 06:40 AM
This thread is funny. Every Ginn apologist/defender doesn't mention his hands, route running or an ability to create space against a defender. All the praise is about his speed and supposed "agility" that went from juking his opposition out of their shoes to "instride cutting" (lol).

So let me get this straight, Ginn's only true strength is his speed and that deserves being drafted at #9? http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/hsugh.gif

Finsfan79
04-12-2007, 07:29 AM
This thread is funny. Every Ginn apologist/defender doesn't mention his hands, route running or an ability to create space against a defender. All the praise is about his speed and supposed "agility" that went from juking his opposition out of their shoes to "instride cutting" (lol).

So let me get this straight, Ginn's only true strength is his speed and that deserves being drafted at #9? http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/hsugh.gif

pretty much according to them. Oh and they love him for a kick returner.

Ignore the fact that miami has 4 solid potential WRs on the roster (chambers, booker, hakeem, hagan).

Ignore the fact he is a slot WR, the same spot best for chambers.

Ignore the fact of his own hands and drops problems.

Ignore the fact of his route running.

After all he must be the second coming of Steve Smith and Devin Hester combined.


Heck we can ignore we dont have someone to throw him the ball. We can ignore we dont really have a left side of the offensive line right now that has seen an NFL snap. We can ignore the problems on the defensive sideof the ball in the secondary. Of the fact that Zach is playing past the age many players are already going into the HoF. Ignore the fact JT has maybe 2-3 years left himself. Ignore the fact that we need depth on the defensive line. Ignore the fact that our secondary is scary in many respects.

Hey we can get a 5th WR, to play the slot with lingering injury concerns and might end up a good slot WR with a top 10 pick.

keylime_5
04-12-2007, 10:55 AM
Ginn's hands aren't bad. He is not Dennis Northcutt or Troy Williamson or Quincy Morgan by any stretch. Nothing wrong with his hands, he just doesn't have 'great hands' and he's not gonna catch everything thrown at him like Marvin Harrison or Jerry Rice. His routes aren't great, but Tressel really only had Ginn run about 4 or 5 different kinds of routes, and it's not like if you don't run good routes in college you'll never run good routes in the pros.

Every knock on Ginn is a correctable or coachable thing. It all falls under the category 'he is a raw player.' You guys act like a guy who's been a WR for a grand total of 3 years in his life is supposed to run crisp routes and catch the ball like Jerry Rice, gimme a break.

Joeyjr09
04-12-2007, 11:10 AM
Ginn's hands aren't bad. He is not Dennis Northcutt or Troy Williamson or Quincy Morgan by any stretch. Nothing wrong with his hands, he just doesn't have 'great hands' and he's not gonna catch everything thrown at him like Marvin Harrison or Jerry Rice. His routes aren't great, but Tressel really only had Ginn run about 4 or 5 different kinds of routes, and it's not like if you don't run good routes in college you'll never run good routes in the pros.

Every knock on Ginn is a correctable or coachable thing. It all falls under the category 'he is a raw player.' You guys act like a guy who's been a WR for a grand total of 3 years in his life is supposed to run crisp routes and catch the ball like Jerry Rice, gimme a break.


When drafting a WR in the top ten, you don't want to gamble on a guy that just about everyone agrees doesn't have the best of hands. Thats a mistake waiting to happen. You take those gambles later in the draft.

keylime_5
04-12-2007, 01:23 PM
to each his own, but if I was a Miami fan I'd love Ginn to be the pick, especially considering the alternatives being Alan "jimmy kennedy" Branch, Anderson, Hall, Levi Brown, and Joe Staley

Joeyjr09
04-12-2007, 01:32 PM
to each his own, but if I was a Miami fan I'd love Ginn to be the pick, especially considering the alternatives being Alan "jimmy kennedy" Branch, Anderson, Hall, Levi Brown, and Joe Staley

I'd take Branch, Hall, Staley and Anderson for Ginn in a heartbeat.

draftguru151
04-12-2007, 03:22 PM
to each his own, but if I was a Miami fan I'd love Ginn to be the pick, especially considering the alternatives being Alan "jimmy kennedy" Branch, Anderson, Hall, Levi Brown, and Joe Staley

Also known as Alan "John Henderson" Branch. Like joey said, I'd take all of those guys over Ginn, and I don't want anything to do with Levi Brown or Anderson.