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Jimmy
04-05-2007, 05:42 AM
The BIG Question is, how many? How many of Bonds' home runs are honest? And how many came courtesy of his reported juicing?
-Barry may have been on steroids (take it how you want it, they may not help hit HR's...but they are a banned substance

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060512

Please read this article

how many of his HR's would have been taken away if he wasnt on steriods?

• 1999: four home runs out of 34.
• 2000: nine out of 49.
• 2001: 18 out of 73.
• 2002: 11 out of 46.
• 2003: 10 out of 45.
• 2004: 13 out of 45.
• 2005: one out of five.
• 2006: zero out of five.

Jay
04-05-2007, 06:47 AM
I don't want him to break it, but I am resigned to the fact that it will happen. Ultimately, it's irrelevant, because Alex Rodriguez is just going to turn around and break it in about five or six more years...

eacantdraft
04-05-2007, 07:09 AM
Go Barry! He is the man. He has just got a bum rap from the media.

cardsalltheway
04-05-2007, 07:10 AM
How can you say they may not help hit home runs? They help make you stronger, which helps you hit the ball farther and if you hit it far enough, you get a home run.

Moses
04-05-2007, 08:34 AM
How can you say they may not help hit home runs? They help make you stronger, which helps you hit the ball farther and if you hit it far enough, you get a home run.

I agree. I don't really see how you can argue the fact that steroids help hit homers.

draftguru151
04-05-2007, 08:39 AM
You still have to be able to actually hit a ball to hit a homerun.

Jay
04-05-2007, 08:43 AM
He already had that ability, the steroids enhanced it. It made him stronger, faster and allowed him to heal from injuries quicker. If someone already has the ability to hit a baseball, steroids make them better. The whole "you have to actually be able to hit a baseball" routine simply doesn't work. Not directing that towards you because you said it, but more-so the entire premise in general, because you weren't the first to say it and you won't be the last...

cardsalltheway
04-05-2007, 08:45 AM
You still have to be able to actually hit a ball to hit a homerun.

He obviously was a very good player pre-steroids, but he never could have reached a level of power anywhere near this without them. I heard somewhere that over the roid years he grew more than a teenager does during puberty. You (not you DG) can't deny that he has done something.

Moses
04-05-2007, 08:50 AM
He obviously was a very good player pre-steroids, but he never could have reached a level of power anywhere near this without them. I heard somewhere that over the roid years he grew more than a teenager does during puberty. You (not you DG) can't deny that he has done something.

http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2006-03/22327462.jpg

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/shared-blogs/palmbeach/floridapolitics/media/PX00051_9.JPG

Night and day. Plus look at how much his head grew. Typical sign of steroid use.

ElectricEye
04-05-2007, 08:51 AM
I'm not as pissed off about this as some people are. No one was complains about Bret Boone being juiced. It was a bad baseball generation. Would he have hit all those homers if he wasn't on juice? Probably not. All things considering, was he the best player of his generation? Probably not if Ken Griffey Jr. was clean. Still, he was the best player among the dirty players. And considering the names in that group, that's saying something. And who was on what. And we may never know either.

cardsalltheway
04-05-2007, 08:52 AM
I'm not as pissed off about this as some people are. No one was complains about Bret Boone being juiced. It was a bad baseball generation. Would he have hit all those homers if he wasn't on juice? Probably not. All things considering, was he the best player of his generation? Probably not if Ken Griffey Jr. was clean. Still, he was the best player among the dirty players. And considering the names in that group, that's saying something. And who was on what. And we may never know either.

Because Brett Boone isn't challenging the most well-known and sacred record in baseball.

Jay
04-05-2007, 09:06 AM
Well, here's the flip side: how about Jason Giambi, an everything but admitted steroid user. In 2003 he hits two HR's, the second of which barely makes it over the fence, and gives the Yankees their first two runs off the Red Sox in game 7 of the ALCS. If he doesn't hit one or either of those HR's, and without taking the steroids, there's no guarantee he's even there, the Red Sox might have been celebrating back to back World Series titles in 2004. Something to think about...

Moses
04-05-2007, 09:07 AM
Well, here's the flip side: how about Jason Giambi, an everything but admitted steroid user. In 2003 he hits two HR's, the second of which barely makes it over the fence, and gives the Yankees their first two runs off the Red Sox. If he doesn't hit one or either of those HR's, and without taking the steroids, there's no guarantee he's even there, the Red Sox might have been celebrating back to back World Series titles in 2004. Something to think about...

I'm sure the Red Sox have their fair share of juicers as well...

ElectricEye
04-05-2007, 09:07 AM
That's not the point. People treat that differently. It's the same damned thing. For every big name who's juiced, theres 10 Bret Boone's we never hear about. It's horrible, but that's the way it is for this generation of players.

NYmoney
04-05-2007, 09:11 AM
He already had that ability, the steroids enhanced it. It made him stronger, faster and allowed him to heal from injuries quicker. If someone already has the ability to hit a baseball, steroids make them better. The whole "you have to actually be able to hit a baseball" routine simply doesn't work. Not directing that towards you because you said it, but more-so the entire premise in general, because you weren't the first to say it and you won't be the last...

You're absolutely correct. Barry hits way more pops up than he used to.

However, to defend the man, he has better stats than Griffey in the 90's.

Notredameleo
04-05-2007, 09:11 AM
First off, he has never tested positive for steroids, and second, during the time when he was "allegedly" taking steroids, they werent illegal. Im not saying that he didn't take steroids, but you cant hate a guy because he took advantage of something, and made himself a better player. Again im not condoning steroid use, its just that everyone busts his balls, when there is actually no proof, except for him getting bigger. I know he hasn't been on roids the last two years, and he is still hitting homers, so there you go.

NYmoney
04-05-2007, 09:12 AM
I'm sure the Red Sox have their fair share of juicers as well...

*Cough*Look at your third baseman*Cough*

Jay
04-05-2007, 09:14 AM
I'm sure the Red Sox have their fair share of juicers as well...

I am sure they do, but aside from Manny Alexander, no one has ever been linked to them while with the Red Sox.

NYmoney
04-05-2007, 09:15 AM
First off, he has never tested positive for steroids, and second, during the time when he was "allegedly" taking steroids, they werent illegal. Im not saying that he didn't take steroids, but you cant hate a guy because he took advantage of something, and made himself a better player. Again im not condoning steroid use, its just that everyone busts his balls, when there is actually no proof, except for him getting bigger. I know he hasn't been on roids the last two years, and he is still hitting homers, so there you go.

proof is in the numbers. look how his past two seasons HR total has decreased. i know he was hurt last year, but still...

Tubby
04-05-2007, 09:15 AM
How do we know Hank Aaron was clean? He probably wasnt on steroids, but he may have been on some kind of performance-enhancing drug. People like to idolize players of the old days and criticize modern players.

Correct me if there were no performance enhancing drugs in Hank Aaron's day.

Jay
04-05-2007, 09:15 AM
*Cough*Look at your third baseman*Cough*

He's certainly not on the juice any more.

ElectricEye
04-05-2007, 09:16 AM
Jason Giambi is a very good name to bring up in this discussion. Giambi is bigger than Bonds. If you told them both to face off benchpressing, I'm willing to bet Giambi would beat him. Yet Barry Bonds still hit more homeruns than Giambi. They were both probably on the same stuff...yet the numbers are different. The numbers are inflated, but he still has the best of the inflated numbers.

NYmoney
04-05-2007, 09:17 AM
He's certainly not on the juice any more.

they got him right as he came off the juice. he hit some 40 hr's the year before. and last year I don't know if he even cracked 20 in a much smaller ballpark.

Damix
04-05-2007, 09:18 AM
proof is in the numbers. look how his past two seasons HR total has decreased. i know he was hurt last year, but still...


Hes also aging now.


I don't defend Barry, but I also won't rip into him. I hate when people show me pictures, in 20 years of course your going to change, steroids or not.

NYmoney
04-05-2007, 09:19 AM
http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2006-03/22327462.jpg

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/shared-blogs/palmbeach/floridapolitics/media/PX00051_9.JPG

Night and day. Plus look at how much his head grew. Typical sign of steroid use.

That is not fair at all. The second picture is a tighter angle. If you're going to use physical evidence, use the right links. espn.com put out a whole montage of before and after pix.

NYmoney
04-05-2007, 09:20 AM
Hes also aging now.


I don't defend Barry, but I also won't rip into him. I hate when people show me pictures, in 20 years of course your going to change, steroids or not.

yes, but your head doesn't grow 2 hat sizes.

cardsalltheway
04-05-2007, 09:21 AM
First off, he has never tested positive for steroids, and second, during the time when he was "allegedly" taking steroids, they werent illegal. Im not saying that he didn't take steroids, but you cant hate a guy because he took advantage of something, and made himself a better player. Again im not condoning steroid use, its just that everyone busts his balls, when there is actually no proof, except for him getting bigger. I know he hasn't been on roids the last two years, and he is still hitting homers, so there you go.

They were still illegal according to the US Government.

cardsalltheway
04-05-2007, 09:22 AM
Hes also aging now.


I don't defend Barry, but I also won't rip into him. I hate when people show me pictures, in 20 years of course your going to change, steroids or not.

But it's completely unnatural to grow as much as he has at his age.

Jay
04-05-2007, 09:23 AM
and second, during the time when he was "allegedly" taking steroids, they werent illegal.

Want that one back?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/format/memos20051109?memo=1991&num=1

LB's 1991 Drug Policy

"The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players and personnel is strictly prohibited... (and those players involved) are subject to discipline by the Commissioner and risk permanent expulsion from the game... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs and controlled substances, including steroids..." -- Francis T. Vincent, Jr., Commissioner of Major League Baseball (1991)

http://espn.go.com/i/eticket/20051109/i/memosPOP_1991_1.jpg

Jay
04-05-2007, 09:27 AM
they got him right as he came off the juice. he hit some 40 hr's the year before. and last year I don't know if he even cracked 20 in a much smaller ballpark.

Hahahaha WHAT?!?!?

First of all, he has NEVER hit 40 HR's, and the year before he came to the Red Sox, he only hit 8. And he did hit 20 last year.

There is less proof that Mike Lowell was ever on steroids then there is Barry Bonds. There's an entire book written about that, and I believe that 110% of that book is true, because here we are like two years later and the only lawsuit brought against them were the tactics in which they gained their info, not something more important to Barry's reputation, like I don't know, libel?

NYmoney
04-05-2007, 09:35 AM
Hahahaha WHAT?!?!?

First of all, he has NEVER hit 40 HR's, and the year before he came to the Red Sox, he only hit 8. And he did hit 20 last year.

There is less proof that Mike Lowell was ever on steroids then there is Barry Bonds. There's an entire book written about that, and I believe that 110% of that book is true, because here we are like two years later and the only lawsuit brought against them were the tactics in which they gained their info, not something more important to Barry's reputation, like I don't know, libel?

Mike Lowell's HR totals:
2000: 22
2001: 18
2002: 24
2003 aka CONTRACT YEAR: 32 <---completed in 130 games
2004: 27
2005 (first year of drug testing): 8
2006 (first year in small Fenway): 20

princefielder28
04-05-2007, 09:37 AM
It will be a terrible day from the game the day he breaks the record

Moses
04-05-2007, 09:39 AM
First off, he has never tested positive for steroids, and second, during the time when he was "allegedly" taking steroids, they werent illegal. Im not saying that he didn't take steroids, but you cant hate a guy because he took advantage of something, and made himself a better player. Again im not condoning steroid use, its just that everyone busts his balls, when there is actually no proof, except for him getting bigger. I know he hasn't been on roids the last two years, and he is still hitting homers, so there you go.

There is so much circumstantial evidence built up against Bonds it is pretty obvious he is/was on something.

Moses
04-05-2007, 09:39 AM
That is not fair at all. The second picture is a tighter angle. If you're going to use physical evidence, use the right links. espn.com put out a whole montage of before and after pix.

Get whatever pictures you want. He's WAY bigger than he used to be. Assume for a second that he somehow did grow that much that late in life. There is still no way to explain why his head is HUGE now.

P-L
04-05-2007, 09:41 AM
I honestly don't care. I don't want him to break the record, but like Jay said, barring a major injury Alex Rodriguez is going to break it in some years anyway.

NYmoney
04-05-2007, 09:44 AM
Get whatever pictures you want. He's WAY bigger than he used to be. Assume for a second that he somehow did grow that much that late in life. There is still no way to explain why his head is HUGE now.

that dome of his is massive. proves he was on more than just greenies and roids.

Moses
04-05-2007, 09:46 AM
that dome of his is massive. proves he was on more than just greenies and roids.

I heard something on TV awhile ago that he was using the same steroids that they put into cattle to make them bigger.

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2004/12/03/mn_bonds_001_cag.jpg

I don't know if there's any truth to that, but it's pretty clear he's putting some type of steroid in his body.

Jay
04-05-2007, 09:46 AM
Mike Lowell's HR totals:
2000: 22
2001: 18
2002: 24
2003 aka CONTRACT YEAR: 32 <---completed in 130 games
2004: 27
2005 (first year of drug testing): 8
2006 (first year in small Fenway): 20

What is your point? Oh no, 32 whopping HR's!! He also had cancer. His body size never changed. He still didn't hit 40 HR's and 20 HR's is about an average year based on his body of work. He also hit a career high 47 doubles last year. Only two other guys in the AL topped that.

And you said he wasn't doing steroids with the Sox (like you know either way), so I don't see where you are going with this...

Jimmy
04-05-2007, 10:14 AM
proof is in the numbers. look how his past two seasons HR total has decreased. i know he was hurt last year, but still...

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read this article- it changed my perspective on barry 100%

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060512

this is a great article, and i used to HATE barry, but now i realize he is still amazing, and could be damn close even if he was roid free.

and yes, there is proof in this very article... barry would still have 630+ if he was roid free..

There is proof in the article that he would have those numbers. so no excuses, barry is a legit hall of famer

which eliminates the "he isnt deserving of jack" argument

for those of you who want to press on the "he is a cheater" argument, he has never been found guilty.

cardsalltheway
04-05-2007, 10:19 AM
I can't read that article...

Moses
04-05-2007, 10:21 AM
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read this article- it changed my perspective on barry 100%

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060512

this is a great article, and i used to HATE barry, but now i realize he is still amazing, and could be damn close even if he was roid free.

and yes, there is proof in this very article... barry would still have 630+ if he was roid free..

There is proof in the article that he would have those numbers. so no excuses, barry is a legit hall of famer

which eliminates the "he isnt deserving of jack" argument

for those of you who want to press on the "he is a cheater" argument, he has never been found guilty.

There's no doubt that Barry Bonds is a great player and would be in the Hall of Fame without steroid use. That said, it's pretty clear that he did/does use steroids which tarnishes everything he's accomplished in baseball. There is no way somebody can tell me that they don't believe Bonds used some type of illegal steroid.

Bengals1690
04-05-2007, 10:24 AM
barry is not the only one on the juice. Im openly rooting for him to break the record. I don't lke him very much, but at least it will add some excite ment.

and if arod hits about 40 a year, the record again will be broken in 6-7 years. S o barry wont be at the top for too long.

Jay
04-05-2007, 10:25 AM
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read this article- it changed my perspective on barry 100%

http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060512

this is a great article, and i used to HATE barry, but now i realize he is still amazing, and could be damn close even if he was roid free.

and yes, there is proof in this very article... barry would still have 630+ if he was roid free..

There is proof in the article that he would have those numbers. so no excuses, barry is a legit hall of famer

which eliminates the "he isnt deserving of jack" argument

No one denies that, but 630+ wasn't good enough. There's no guarantee he would have even been able to PLAY these past few years if it wasn't for the steroids and all that it allowed him to do. His knees are bad, but the steroids and HGH gave him the ability to grow more muscle around the areas he needed it, and it also allowed him gain more power at an age where he was supposed to be losing it. Combined with his already HOF-worthy ability, he became the beast he has been the past few years.

Barry was a legit HOFer before all of this, and that is the unfortunate part. It's unfortunate that everything he did before the steroids means nothing to people. But he brought it on himself though, so seeing him get all moody and crying using his kids as a crutch makes me lose even more respect for him...

for those of you who want to press on the "he is a cheater" argument, he has never been found guilty.

That means nothing. Anyone that uses the cop-out of he has never been caught or never been found guilty needs to stop, because it is irrelevant. He cheated, and he has admitted he cheat via the cop-out of "I didn't know I was cheating" to a grand jury. That's all there is to it. There is no way he didn't know what was going into his body. No way at all.

Bengals1690
04-05-2007, 10:31 AM
proof is in the numbers. look how his past two seasons HR total has decreased. i know he was hurt last year, but still...

well, in 2005 he played 14 games and hit 5 home runs, so i wouldnt say he had too bad of a year 2 years ago.

and for god sakes, the guy is 42. I dont see julio franco or jose valentine hitting 26 homers. He still gets walked often, and last year he slugged 545.

P-L
04-05-2007, 10:34 AM
Yes, Bonds is one of the greatest players of all-time with or without steroids. But 630 HR isn't 756 HR.

B-Dawk
04-05-2007, 10:43 AM
without steroids Bonds was a hall of famer, but with them he has become a legend.

draftguru151
04-05-2007, 11:15 AM
I read something in ESPN the magazine that if Bond's shoe size continues at it's current rate he would be size 22.5 in 2075, lol.

As for the Lowell thing, I really thought that he was on something and it wouldn't shock me if he was. He had nowhere near the power he had before. His last year here he was terrible on offense.

Jimmy
04-05-2007, 11:22 AM
look, all i know is that he hit a Hr last night, and we know for a fact he is roids free right now, so.......... he was obviously capable of hitting HR's to a larger extent 5 years ago... when he wasnt 42.... and the fact that is he is closing in on the record as a steroid free (at the current time) player gives me happiness, because he will have broken most of the record regardless of the 5 yards roids add to a pop up.

i honestly dont see why its a big deal

barry will have the record; but those who dont want to belive it dont have to belive it... i just think he deserves his name next to that record without an asterisk... for gods sake... other guys have used and been caught using sterioids. i dont think just cause barry puts up better #'s due to talent he pretty much already had that he should be singled out and asterisked... he won an MVP pre steriod usage

jerry hairston wont be *'d, neither will alex s. gonzalez or canseco or mcgwire

Moses
04-05-2007, 11:31 AM
look, all i know is that he hit a Hr last night, and we know for a fact he is roids free right now, so.......... he was obviously capable of hitting HR's to a larger extent 5 years ago... when he wasnt 42.... and the fact that is he is closing in on the record as a steroid free (at the current time) player gives me happiness, because he will have broken most of the record regardless of the 5 yards roids add to a pop up.

i honestly dont see why its a big deal

barry will have the record; but those who dont want to belive it dont have to belive it... i just think he deserves his name next to that record without an asterisk... for gods sake... other guys have used and been caught using sterioids. i dont think just cause barry puts up better #'s due to talent he pretty much already had that he should be singled out and asterisked... he won an MVP pre steriod usage

jerry hairston wont be *'d, neither will alex s. gonzalez or canseco or mcgwire

How do you know for a fact that Bonds isn't using steroids anymore? Pray tell.

Steroids would do a lot more than add 5 yards to a pop up. They allow you to train longer and harder and also recover from injuries faster. Guys like McGwire wouldn't be half the players they were without juicing. Bonds was always a great baseball player but he wouldn't be at the level he is at now without juicing.

The big deal is that Bonds is playing on an unfair playing field. He's cheating. He's not the only one but that doesn't make him exempt from criticism.