2004 QB Class or 2006 QB Class?

[GiantRutgersFan]

which do you feel is going to ultimately be better????


I gotta say 2004, although both are gonna be very good.

Heres how I see things shaking out. The guys arent gonna be exact clones, but theres some similarity's.




Big Ben............ Brett Favre

Phil Rivers.........Jim Kelly

Eli Manning....... John Elway

Jay Cutler.........Phil Simms

Vince Young.....Air Mcnair but slightly better

Matt Lienart.....Trent Green





So yea. I think that 2004 is gonna be on par with the heralded 1983 QB class. 2006 is a nice class, but doesnt quite stack up with 2004 imo.


whats your opinion?

[BuffaloDraftGeek]

Losman is better than Manning. He won games for his team last year, Manning lost them.

[ricky bobby]

Losman is better than Manning. He won games for his team last year, Manning lost them.

You're dillusional.

[America]

Manning is nothing like John Elway. Vince Young is more like Elway than Manning is. I picked 06 because Young has already proved doubters wrong, Leinart did fairly well, and Cutler played pretty well too. And Croyle could start this year.

[leftwich7]

i thinks its too early to say anything, however i will say that 04 has a title and 06 does not

[princefielder28]

Big Ben is nowhere near #4

[cardsalltheway]

Did you just call Eli Manning comparable to John Elway?
http://209.85.48.9/8840/126/emo/4funny.gif

[JK17]

The Comparison of Manning to Elway is a bit of a reach, and I don't really see Leinart as a Trent Green...that being said I would still think the '04 class is goign to be better, but it's probably a little to early to judge, since none of the '06 have even started a full season yet.

[ricky bobby]

i thinks its too early to say anything, however i will say that 04 has a title and 06 does not

Big Ben didn't win that title, The Steeler did it despite him.

[Moses]

Big Ben didn't win that title, The Steeler did it despite him.

He wasn't a star but he did do a nice job managing the game and not losing it for the Steelers.

[neko4]

Big Ben and Favre? Favre 6'2...Big Ben 6'5

[MP123]

I will say 2006 because 3 beats 2. Rivers and Big Ben have been great so far, but I think Young, Leinart, and Cutler will all be great.

[JK17]

Big Ben and Favre? Favre 6'2...Big Ben 6'5

Yeah, I would disagree with almost all of the comparisons. I'm not gonna try to do better because I don't like palyer comparisons, but if we are going to do that I would call Cutler much more similar to Favre than Roethlisberger.

[JK17]

I will say 2006 because 3 beats 2. Rivers and Big Ben have been great so far, but I think Young, Leinart, and Cutler will all be great.

They could all be great, but I think it's very unlikely all three will be great. Rivers and Roethlisberger and Manning could all be great too, It's a little to early for this conversation to have any real arguments though, mostly from the 2006 side.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

Big Ben and Favre? Favre 6'2...Big Ben 6'5

Do you compare everything just physically? Russell can't be compared to Palmer because Russell's athletic, and Boller is a good comparison to Russell since they both have good arms and fair mobility? More goes into a comparison than physical attributes, you know.

Anyway, I'd say 06. Roethlisberger hasn't shown he can really lead the team, Manning is still struggling(although I think he'll get out of it), Losman so far has had one good year, and Rivers has the best OL, Tomlinson, Gates and the most talented D to help him.

Leinart flashed some good potential, VY did as well, and won OROY, and Cutler performed very well in his third of the season. Although, if no 4th QB emerges from 06, and all 4 stay good from 04, then I may be inclined to give it to 04 as long as Leinart, VY and Cutler don't bust out all crazy.

[BuffaloDraftGeek]

Big Ben is nothing like favre. If you want to compare him to a great QB it would be Aikman.

Losman is the most like favre. Big risk taker who loves to throw the ball up.

And none of them are like kelly, because none of them run a no huddle offense and call their own plays. Peyton Manning is like Kelly.

Of course, none of those QB's are anywhere near that of great HOFers.

[GB12]

He wasn't a star but he did do a nice job managing the game and not losing it for the Steelers.

Silent shot at Grossman.

[FloridaFootball]

Jason Campbell.

[BuffaloDraftGeek]

You're dillusional.

How do you figure.

Just as I said. Manning was a liability who lost games, that his team had to overcome to win.

Losman was a playmaker who won games for his team (two game-winning drives with, would be a third if lindel could his a 40 yard field goal in a dome, or a 50 yarder in wind, would make it a 4th). Manning certainly has potential to be something decent, but at this point in their careers Losman>Manning.

As for the comparison. Each class has produced a probowler (though VY didn't deserve it), and the 04 class has a superbowl ring. Still though, the 06 class is very young, and we've only seen what, a collective 20 games out of them? I do think the 06 class has much more potential. But on play alone, its the 04 class, just because they have more experience thus far.

[JK17]

Anyway, I'd say 06. Roethlisberger hasn't shown he can really lead the team, Manning is still struggling(although I think he'll get out of it), Losman so far has had one good year, and Rivers has the best OL, Tomlinson, Gates and the most talented D to help him.

Those aren't really fair knocks on those players though. I mean for how great Rivers supporting cast is, you are telling me Leinart doesn't have an even better, amazing receiving core? and that Cutler's coaching and strong defense, as well as deep threat Walker didn't help him develop? Or taht Young....well he kind of just played really good haha. But not all QBs are amazing after just three years, and good casts that help them do better, plus Roethlisberger has shown he can lead a team...he won the Super Bowl. I don't think your criticsims of Rivers, Losman, and Roethlisberger are very fair though.

[The Great Jonathan Vilma]

this thread is on crack.....at least as far as comparisons are concened

[bored of education]

I hate how Homers say John Elway is similar to Eli. That is so comical

[JK17]

I hate how Homers say John Elway is similar to Eli. That is so comical

Amen(10 Char.)

[CC.SD]

Cutler=Simms is pretty bad too. Not as bad as Eli=Elway though.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

I think everyone' writing off Eli a little too soon. Give him a year or two without Coughlin, and we'll see what happens. Coughlin should not have a job right now.

[ElectricEye]

Baaad comparisons. None of them make any sense, really.
But I like the 06 class over the 04 class.

[HoopsDemon12]

Losman is better than Manning. He won games for his team last year, Manning lost them.

You're dillusional.

I would have to agree will draft geek...eli won some games sure...but look what j.p did wiht the bills....im a huge bills fan...and i hate losman...but i can actually say i like losman bette rthen eli

[GiantRutgersFan]

Cutler=Simms is pretty bad too. Not as bad as Eli=Elway though.


I did Cutler to Simms because of their teams situation more then the players.

Both are on good franchises who consistently had a very good D and a good running attack.

As for Eli to Elway, the similarities are uncanny. Being a Charger fan, I doubt you watch much Giants football. But the 4th quarter comebacks are a common link between them, as are several other factors

[GiantRutgersFan]

I would have to agree will draft geek...eli won some games sure...but look what j.p did wiht the bills....im a huge bills fan...and i hate losman...but i can actually say i like losman bette rthen eli

well.... your a homer.


Eli single handedly put the Giants in position to win 6 games this season by making a big drive in the 4th quarter to go ahead, or tie the game with under 3 minutes remaining.

The defense ending up blowing 4 of them however.


Eli>>>>>>>>>>>>>>JP "I Los(e)man"

and i watched some Bills games last year BTW and dont dislike the Bills at all. And I dont even mind Losman

[JK17]

As for Eli to Elway, the similarities are uncanny. Being a Charger fan, I doubt you watch much Giants football. But the 4th quarter comebacks are a common link between them, as are several other factors

This is where you lose credibility in almost every single one of your threads regarding quarterback play and Eli.

EDIT: In addition, if we are going to assume that fans of other teams do not watch other team's games, I would have to question how you know enough about Elway to compare him to Eli, as the Broncos play on the other side of the country, in a different division and conference entirely.

[Ewing]

As for Eli to Elway, the similarities are uncanny. Being a Charger fan, I doubt you watch much Giants football. But the 4th quarter comebacks are a common link between them, as are several other factors

Vince Young has more 4th quarter comebacks than Eli. Remember when Eli and Vince faced off or do I have to bust out the highlight reel?

[GiantRutgersFan]

This is where you lose credibility in almost every single one of your threads regarding quarterback play and Eli.

EDIT: In addition, if we are going to assume that fans of other teams do not watch other team's games, I would have to question how you know enough about Elway to compare him to Eli, as the Broncos play on the other side of the country, in a different division and conference entirely.



ummmm Elway has played for 10 years and was in several Superbowl and a load of playoff games. do you really think I never saw him play?

Look up Elways stats in his first 3 years. Look up Elis stats. notice the similaritys.

Elway had a stigma attached to him until he won a superbowl much like Eli does now




Perhaps VY did have more comebacks. Im not saying he didnt. I dont really know, but it seemed like ESPN was always talking about that.



I dont dislike Vince Young and didnt say anything bad about him.... not really sure what your point is....

[yourfavestoner]

ummmm Elway has played for 10 years and was in several Superbowl and a load of playoff games. do you really think I never saw him play?

Look up Elways stats in his first 3 years. Look up Elis stats. notice the similaritys.

Elway had a stigma attached to him until he won a superbowl much like Eli does now


Okay, but you realize their playing styles (the most important thing in player to player comparisons) are completely different right?

[JK17]

ummmm Elway has played for 10 years and was in several Superbowl and a load of playoff games. do you really think I never saw him play?

Look up Elways stats in his first 3 years. Look up Elis stats. notice the similaritys.

Elway had a stigma attached to him until he won a superbowl much like Eli does now

Eli is on tv almost every week...do you really think no one else has seen him play? Your stats argument is absurd, as even you have to know stats cannot tell the full story on a player.

I don't want to waste any more space on a thread arguing about Eli, unless you really want to. We've beaten this to death in countless other threads and posts so there is really no need to do it. Comparing Eli to Elway is something I have only seen you do. Find me other Giants fans who have the same agreement...or any other fan at all and I may give you some credibility on this. If you can't I would suggest you look at almost every other post in this thread that has ridiculed that comparison.

[GiantRutgersFan]

Okay, but you realize their playing styles (the most important thing in player to player comparisons) are completely different right?

I wouldnt say completely different. And thats not how I was doing it. I meant more like there teams make up, demeanor and amount of success that they are gonna have when I was doing the comparasions i made

[GiantRutgersFan]

Eli is on tv almost every week...do you really think no one else has seen him play? Your stats argument is absurd, as even you have to know stats cannot tell the full story on a player.

I don't want to waste any more space on a thread arguing about Eli, unless you really want to. We've beaten this to death in countless other threads and posts so there is really no need to do it. Comparing Eli to Elway is something I have only seen you do. Find me other Giants fans who have the same agreement...or any other fan at all and I may give you some credibility on this. If you can't I would suggest you look at almost every other post in this thread that has ridiculed that comparison.

do you even understand my point? There are so many similaritys in there first 3 seasons. Im not saying "Eli Manning is as good as John Elway". I am just saying that I think Eli is gonna develop into that kind of guy and do similar things to what Elway did, minus the losing in the superbowl a couple times.

[JK17]

do you even understand my point? There are so many similaritys in there first 3 seasons. Im not saying "Eli Manning is as good as John Elway". I am just saying that I think Eli is gonna develop into that kind of guy and do similar things to what Elway did, minus the losing in the superbowl a couple times.

Of course I understand your point, It's just a bad point. Aside from the comebacks that Eli supposedly has had, which are of almost no comparison to Elways, I would like to hear the other similarities, bear in mind that almost all first few years QBs have similar stats...

[toonsterwu]

I'd take 06 over 04. It's close, though, and obviously, making a judgment now is hard. I think Schaub will be at least a solid starter, I think Losman is developing. That said, the thing is, the top 3 of 2004 has had some time, and there's so much that is unknown, and I'm not sold that any of those three will be elite level QB's in the NFL. The 06's all looked fairly solid in their adjustments last year.

Only time will tell, though.

[GiantRutgersFan]

Of course I understand your point, It's just a bad point. Aside from the comebacks that Eli supposedly has had, which are of almost no comparison to Elways, I would like to hear the other similarities, bear in mind that almost all first few years QBs have similar stats...

Did you see Giants vs Eagles, week 3? that was imo the GOTY in all of the NFL.


as for other similaritys, #1 pick overall, involved in contreversial draft day trade, extremely high expectations of both of them, a lot of (unfair) criticism of both of them in early years, etc.

[JK17]

Did you see Giants vs Eagles, week 3? that was imo the GOTY in all of the NFL.

I did see that game. I saw Plaxico Burress make a great play to win the game. But even if we give Eli credit for that, plenty of other QBs have made comebacks and I wouldn't compare them to Elway. Hell, look at Rivers. He came back from down over 17 points at halftime two games in a row. His game against Cincy is worthy of the GOTY and Elway comparisons in and of itself. But people don't compare Rivers to Elway because a couple comebacks do not make you a comeback king.


as for other similaritys, #1 pick overall, involved in contreversial draft day trade, extremely high expectations of both of them, a lot of (unfair) criticism of both of them in early years, etc.

Now you are making similarities about things that have nothing to do with on the field performance. I have no problem with you comparing Eli's draft situation with Elway, because that is a valid comparison. But when you refer to Eli as similar to Elway, as you have in other threads too, you are not referring to this, you are referring to what you see on the field, which isn't there.

The main thing I see missing between these two quarterbacks is the ability to motivate. Elway gave his team the feel that they were never out of the came. He beamed with confidence. This is something you do not see in Manning. This is not an attack on Manning. I know I am biased because as a Charger fan, I hate him, but I can also admit he is an average to above average NFL starter. But c'mon. Aside from the off-the field stuff, he has no place in a conversation about Elway.

[Xiomera]

I am so tempted to give him negative rep for mis-spelling Leinart's name.

[Komp]

Yah I'm with JK17 on this one. Manning has a lot of work to do before you can compare to anyone great.

I think the 06 class will be light years ahead of the 04 class in 3-4 years. We'll see if they have any sophmore slumps next year.

[JK17]

Yah I'm with JK17 on this one. Manning has a lot of work to do before you can compare to anyone great.

Exactly, it's not so much a bash on Eli as it is respect to Elway. Although he's another one I hate...haha.

[Stash]

well.... your a homer.


Eli single handedly put the Giants in position to win 6 games this season by making a big drive in the 4th quarter to go ahead, or tie the game with under 3 minutes remaining.

The defense ending up blowing 4 of them however.


Eli>>>>>>>>>>>>>>JP "I Los(e)man"

and i watched some Bills games last year BTW and dont dislike the Bills at all. And I dont even mind Losman

I find it absolutely hilarious that you are calling someone else a homer when you are a Giants fan trying to compare Eli to Elway.

I pretty much agree with draftgeek and hoopsdemon about Losman. He is the only QB from the 04 class on that list that has gotten better over the years while the other QB's like Big Ben and Eli have regressed from their early success. Rivers had a really good year in his first year starting, but I think most would agree that he has benefited from having one of the most talented offenses surrounding him. Losman played very well for the Bills, who have been really bad for a while now, and he almost got them to the playoffs.

As for the guys in the 06 class, I think Cutler and Leinart have the potential to be the best QB's out of all these guys, but they have only played one season, so we'll need a few more years in order to judge their performance better.

[doingthisinsteadofwork]

Those are some pretty bad comparisons.T-Jack sounds stupid as well.Croyle was a better prospect than Jackson.
Leinart reminds me alot of Ken Stabler.

[BigDawg819]

Why don't we wait until we see the QB's do something this year before we crown them? GRF you are such a tool, we do they still let you post threads?

[neko4]

Do you compare everything just physically? Russell can't be compared to Palmer because Russell's athletic, and Boller is a good comparison to Russell since they both have good arms and fair mobility? More goes into a comparison than physical attributes, you know.



No I dont, but would you call big ben athletic. In Favre's younger days(especially college) he was a running QB. Not so much in the pros but still, Favre and Big Ben arent alike except that they have slightly similar arms. Athelticaly and physically(maybe mentally too) they are different.

[Jay]

I think it's too early to say, but if I had to look in my crystal ball and predict, I would probably go with 2004...

[Stash]

No I dont, but would you call big ben athletic. In Favre's younger days(especially college) he was a running QB. Not so much in the pros but still, Favre and Big Ben arent alike except that they have slightly similar arms. Athelticaly and physically(maybe mentally too) they are different.

Similar arms? Favre has one of the best arms in NFL history, he throws finger breaking fastballs. Big Bens arm isn't even close, the only guy in this discussion who's arm should be compared to that of Favre is Cutler, he can zip that thing.

[San Diego Chicken]

The Roethlisberger skepticism is something that I really don't get. The man has won a Super Bowl, and had a passer rating over 98 in his first two seasons, which I believe was the second highest in the league during that span behind Manning.

He had a down year last year, which I attribute to his bad motorcycle accident which most likely injured him emotionally as much as it did physically, and an emergency appendectomy. He tried to do too much throughout the season and threw plenty of picks, but does that negate what he's accomplished? He's a supremely gifted physical specimine with a great and competitive mental makeup. Oh, and he's still 25 years old. The guy is no slouch people, he can play the game. And please don't bring up the "supporting cast" argument. Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Tom Rathman, Brent Jones, Roger Craig - That is a supporting cast. Please don't pass off Hines Ward, Willie Parker, Antwaan Randle El and an ancient Jerome Bettis as a "great supporting cast"

[draftguru151]

As prospects, 04, and it's not real close for me. All the QBs last year had big time questions that weren't nearly as bad as 04. It's too early to tell as players since the guys from 06 only have one year, but I'd lean towards 04 as well.

[BengalsPwn]

He wasn't a star but he did do a nice job managing the game and not losing it for the Steelers.
If im not mistaken, didnt he have a like 20 passer rating in the superbowl. If it wasnt for the refs and that defense everyone would of been creaming big ben the next day for blowing the game.

[WinslowBodden]

2004... Ben already won a superbowl, Rivers led his team to an amazing record, and Manning is pretty underrated just because of where he plays.

[ChewyRaven318]

I think Vince Young will ultimately be better than McNair. McNair didn't have nearly the rookie season that Young did. They plan on retooling Young's throwing methods/arm in the offseason, so hopefully he will be even better next year. I think the kid's gonna have a hell of a career.

And Ben had a pretty low QB rating(9-21, 123 yds, 2 INT)

[GiantRutgersFan]

Manning is pretty underrated just because of where he plays.

Indeed...


I really wonder what it would have been like if the internet was popular like it is now in the 90s when we had Dave Brown and Danny Kanell leading our team....

[BigDawg819]

Indeed...


I really wonder what it would have been like if the internet was popular like it is now in the 90s when we had Dave Brown and Danny Kanell leading our team....

Danny Kanell WOOT! :D

[Shiver]

I think '04 had the better prospects, but '06 will be viewed, in hindsight, as the vastly superior class.

[VoteLynnSwan]

I said 06 simply because this entire thread is just an effort to garner more respect for Eli from a lame ass Giants homer.

[JK17]

I said 06 simply because this entire thread is just an effort to garner more respect for Eli from a lame ass Giants homer.

Haha, valid point.

[trademaster]

ELi is the worst QB out of the 04 class.

[draftguru151]

ELi is the worst QB out of the 04 class.

BJ Symons disagrees.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

BJ Symons disagrees.

So does Matt Mauck, Casey Bramlet, Cody Pickett, John Navarre, Jeff Smoker, Josh Harris, etc.

[trademaster]

I meant, the worse QB with high to mid aspirations.

Right now I'll go:

1.Big Ben(Because he has a ring)
2.Rivers
3.J.P. Losman(Could have been in the playoffs, if he is in the NFC)
4.Eli(He has Tiki,Shockey, and Plaxico) yet he cant play like real QB, he can put-up good #'s but he can kill you with his turnovers, and dumbhead mistakes.

[JK17]

I meant, the worse QB with high to mid aspirations.

Right now I'll go:

1.Big Ben(Because he has a ring)
2.Rivers
3.J.P. Losman(Could have been in the playoffs, if he is in the NFC)
4.Eli(He has Tiki,Shockey, and Plaxico) yet he cant play like real QB, he can put-up good #'s but he can kill you with his turnovers, and dumbhead mistakes.

...anxiosuly awaits GRF response...

[Chief49er]

Big Ben............ Brett Favre

Phil Rivers.........Jim Kelly

Eli Manning....... John Elway

Jay Cutler.........Phil Simms

Vince Young.....Air Mcnair but slightly better

Matt Lienart.....Trent Green



Wow, wtf?

You say Vince Young is better then Steve after one year of throwing like ass?

"Eli Manning....... John Elway"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Eli Manning sucks dude!

All of these comparisons are pretty bad, sorry.

[GiantRutgersFan]

I meant, the worse QB with high to mid aspirations.

Right now I'll go:

1.Big Ben(Because he has a ring)
2.Rivers
3.J.P. Losman(Could have been in the playoffs, if he is in the NFC)
4.Eli(He has Tiki,Shockey, and Plaxico) yet he cant play like real QB, he can put-up good #'s but he can kill you with his turnovers, and dumbhead mistakes.


yea and he had freaking Tim Carter and Bob Whitfield. Plus a crap defense. When the team was healthy, he was a pro bowl caliber QB.

And you have JP Losman over Eli???? what a joke. Eli took a team with the 4th worst team 2004 draft into a perennial post season contender in just one year. Teams didnt stack 8 in the box against the G-Men. And Tiki was underutilized in the passing game, as was Shockey. And since when is Plaxico just a great player? I like the guy but he is a borderline #1 reciever. Theres probably 20 better WRs in the NFL. Yet people say how great Eli's recievers are.



JP Losman is a perrenial loser, with one decent year (yet Eli has had a better season every single year). His team was considerably better then the Giants when he was drafted, yet he hasnt even sniffed the playoffs.


Comparing the 2 is an insult to all intelligent football fans, as well as an insult to Eli Manning and the New York Giants.

[dhoe20]

I love how everyone writes off Eli. "He loses games." Name one, please. He's put the team in plenty of opportunities to win when the defense blew it. Lost his LT and his most reliable WR. He got sacked 8 times in a game and still managed to come back from a 17 pt deficit.

Vince Young has more 4th quarter comebacks than Eli. Remember when Eli and Vince faced off or do I have to bust out the highlight reel?
Was Eli playing on defense? Is it his fault that his defense commited personal fouls and let go of VY on 4th down? When a team blows a 21 pt lead it's the defenses fault.

You can't call a player a failure after 2 years of work. It's stupid, give it time. Peyton led the league in INTs as late as his 4th year.

[JK17]

yea and he had freaking Tim Carter and Bob Whitfield. Plus a crap defense. When the team was healthy, he was a pro bowl caliber QB.

And you have JP Losman over Eli???? what a joke. Eli took a team with the 4th worst team 2004 draft into a perennial post season contender in just one year. Teams didnt stack 8 in the box against the G-Men. And Tiki was underutilized in the passing game, as was Shockey. And since when is Plaxico just a great player? I like the guy but he is a borderline #1 reciever. Theres probably 20 better WRs in the NFL. Yet people say how great Eli's recievers are.

Well....Plax has made Eli look much better than he is on many occasions, catching balls that other recievers would not have. And if we are mentioning weapons, it's more than just WRs that factor into the equation. If Eli's bad line and defense arent going to count against him, than Losman's shouldnt count against him either, because his are arguably worse than Eli's. And as for offensive weapons, Eli had Burress, but how could you just write off Shockey and Tiki too?

I'm not saying Losman is better, because I don't think he is, but you can't make arguments that could be used the exact same way to support JP.

[Titans10]

both are great classes, but it is still way to early to tell since the qb's from '06 still havent played a whole season

eli compared to elway? lol... Cutler is more Elway like, being they both have rocket arms

[GiantRutgersFan]

Well....Plax has made Eli look much better than he is on many occasions, catching balls that other recievers would not have.

Plax is a red zone threat because he is so tall... Just because you see him making a TD catch on Sportscenter a lot doesnt make him great. He also has a tendency to make things look more difficult then they should be

Not knocking the guy, but he doesnt run great routes and doesn't get enough separation, in addition to his taking plays off.

[JK17]

Plax is a red zone threat because he is so tall... Just because you see him making a TD catch on Sportscenter a lot doesnt make him great. He also has a tendency to make things look more difficult then they should be

Not knocking the guy, but he doesnt run great routes and doesn't get enough separation, in addition to his taking plays off.

I've seen him play other times that just on sportscenter you know....what about Eli's other weapons though? You mean to say, being the avid Giants fan you are, that his other weapons have never made him look better than he is? He's never been bailed out by Shockey, or dumped off a 2 yard pass to Tiki that he turend into a 20+ yard play?

[SuperMcgee]

yea and he had freaking Tim Carter and Bob Whitfield. Plus a crap defense. When the team was healthy, he was a pro bowl caliber QB.

And you have JP Losman over Eli???? what a joke. Eli took a team with the 4th worst team 2004 draft into a perennial post season contender in just one year. Teams didnt stack 8 in the box against the G-Men. And Tiki was underutilized in the passing game, as was Shockey. And since when is Plaxico just a great player? I like the guy but he is a borderline #1 reciever. Theres probably 20 better WRs in the NFL. Yet people say how great Eli's recievers are.



JP Losman is a perrenial loser, with one decent year (yet Eli has had a better season every single year). His team was considerably better then the Giants when he was drafted, yet he hasnt even sniffed the playoffs.


Comparing the 2 is an insult to all intelligent football fans, as well as an insult to Eli Manning and the New York Giants.

JP Losman a perennial loser? He only played 1 and a half seasons. 7-9 in a season where the problems were clearly running and stopping the run, not Losman. He showed good leadership skill, developed great chemistry with his targets and helped Josh Reed to finally not be hated by his own fans. He improved the team from last year and improved as a player. He lead comebacks and escaped pressure. He throws a great deep ball and really got his short stuff going with Royal, Reed, and Evans. Bad decisions and forced passes will occur, sure, and he still has a bit of a problem handling the ball, but the way you talk up Eli to be so far above him is what is truly insulting toward a guy that is clearly escalating to being a very good QB.

[bhaarat316]

I think Cutler is comparable to Farve
Eli does not equal Elway maybe Ben and Elway
I give Young = Mcnair or McNabb but still to early to tell for 06


Eli would be good if he wasnt to scared to take a hit, same goes for Ben the first year he didnt mind stepping up and taking a hit or the second year. After the accedint he would turn away or not step up into his throws resulting in pick.
Eli same he turns away to avoid hits when throwin and he doesnt step up to throw the ball and take a hit.

[skinzzfan25]

yea and he had freaking Tim Carter and Bob Whitfield. Plus a crap defense. When the team was healthy, he was a pro bowl caliber QB.

And you have JP Losman over Eli???? what a joke. Eli took a team with the 4th worst team 2004 draft into a perennial post season contender in just one year. Teams didnt stack 8 in the box against the G-Men. And Tiki was underutilized in the passing game, as was Shockey. And since when is Plaxico just a great player? I like the guy but he is a borderline #1 reciever. Theres probably 20 better WRs in the NFL. Yet people say how great Eli's recievers are.



JP Losman is a perrenial loser, with one decent year (yet Eli has had a better season every single year). His team was considerably better then the Giants when he was drafted, yet he hasnt even sniffed the playoffs.


Comparing the 2 is an insult to all intelligent football fans, as well as an insult to Eli Manning and the New York Giants.



Losman didn't have any sort of line or protection. If the two QBs were to switch teams, the Giants would be better. Losman has more poise and skill than Eli. Just he had barley and weapons to use, and now he pretty much has nobody outside Evans. So of course Eli will probably have a better year than Losman, but that's only because the Bills are in a rebuilding stage.

Let's see how well Eli does this year without Tiki. If you hit Eli once, you can get inside his mind for the whole entire game, and every defense knows that.

[GiantRutgersFan]

I've seen him play other times that just on sportscenter you know....what about Eli's other weapons though? You mean to say, being the avid Giants fan you are, that his other weapons have never made him look better than he is? He's never been bailed out by Shockey, or dumped off a 2 yard pass to Tiki that he turend into a 20+ yard play?


Shockey steps up in big spots. The problem with Shockey is that he was severely underutilized last year. He was used entirely too much on blocking.

He averaged about 40 yards a game receiving. Thats not really great, especially considering the pass happy offense the Giants had going last year.

Toomer is a nice #2 option. But he was injured last year and like I said, Eli was playing on a pro bowl level before Toomers injury (although Pettigout was lost for the season the same game)

And there was NO 3rd reciever on the Giants. Sinorice Moss was injured all year and was a rookie. We were relying on Tim Carter, who shouldnt even make an NFL roster....

Tiki Barber is a nice player, and a compliment to the passing game. I give you that one. But Tiki didnt really make the big play off of a pass. he had only 2 receptions that gained 20 yards. And the long was 28 yards. Plus teams didnt put 8 in the box against us so Tiki didnt help in that regard.

[bigbluedefense]

GRF, if you weren't a Giants fan, Id negative rep you every morning before I brush my teeth.

[JK17]

Shockey steps up in big spots. The problem with Shockey is that he was severely underutilized last year. He was used entirely too much on blocking.

He averaged about 40 yards a game receiving. Thats not really great, especially considering the pass happy offense the Giants had going last year.

Toomer is a nice #2 option. But he was injured last year and like I said, Eli was playing on a pro bowl level before Toomers injury (although Pettigout was lost for the season the same game)

And there was NO 3rd reciever on the Giants. Sinorice Moss was injured all year and was a rookie. We were relying on Tim Carter, who shouldnt even make an NFL roster....

Tiki Barber is a nice player, and a compliment to the passing game. I give you that one. But Tiki didnt really make the big play off of a pass. he had only 2 receptions that gained 20 yards. And the long was 28 yards. Plus teams didnt put 8 in the box against us so Tiki didnt help in that regard.

All of that though is a hell of a lot more than what Losman had in Buffalo....

[BuffaloDraftGeek]

yea and he had freaking Tim Carter and Bob Whitfield. Plus a crap defense. When the team was healthy, he was a pro bowl caliber QB.

And you have JP Losman over Eli???? what a joke. Eli took a team with the 4th worst team 2004 draft into a perennial post season contender in just one year. Teams didnt stack 8 in the box against the G-Men. And Tiki was underutilized in the passing game, as was Shockey. And since when is Plaxico just a great player? I like the guy but he is a borderline #1 reciever. Theres probably 20 better WRs in the NFL. Yet people say how great Eli's recievers are.



JP Losman is a perrenial loser, with one decent year (yet Eli has had a better season every single year). His team was considerably better then the Giants when he was drafted, yet he hasnt even sniffed the playoffs.


Comparing the 2 is an insult to all intelligent football fans, as well as an insult to Eli Manning and the New York Giants.

Dude, take off your giants blue colored glasses. Eli was BAD last year, bad to the point he almost got benched. He had a QB rating under 80. He didn't take his team anywhere, he lost games for them.

Losman took his team on numerous game winning drives, and proved to be the QB of the future for the bills.

Put it this way. If Losman plays the way he did last year next year, he'll still have a job in 08. If eli plays the way he did last year next year, you can guarentee the giants will be bringing in a new QB.

[BuffaloDraftGeek]

Losman didn't have any sort of line or protection. If the two QBs were to switch teams, the Giants would be better. Losman has more poise and skill than Eli. Just he had barley and weapons to use, and now he pretty much has nobody outside Evans. So of course Eli will probably have a better year than Losman, but that's only because the Bills are in a rebuilding stage.

Let's see how well Eli does this year without Tiki. If you hit Eli once, you can get inside his mind for the whole entire game, and every defense knows that.
psht, even with less tallent around him, Losman had a better year last year than Eli...

[bigbluedefense]

Dude, take off your giants blue colored glasses. Eli was BAD last year, bad to the point he almost got benched. He had a QB rating under 80. He didn't take his team anywhere, he lost games for them.

Losman took his team on numerous game winning drives, and proved to be the QB of the future for the bills.

Put it this way. If Losman plays the way he did last year next year, he'll still have a job in 08. If eli plays the way he did last year next year, you can guarentee the giants will be bringing in a new QB.

Eli wasn't that bad. Come on, almost benched? No way. People exaggerate Eli sooooo much because he's under a microscope in NY.

People cite Alex Smith as having a great 2nd year when having 16 TDs, and 16 INTs.

Imagine if Eli put up those #s? People would kill him.

Eli is not nearly as bad as his haters will lead you to believe. Everything he does is exaggerated 10 fold because of the market he plays for. I guarantee you that if Lossman was transplanted into NY with his same exact #s, people would kill him even more.

And thats coming from a guy who liked JP this year. I think he was very solid.

[JK17]

Eli wasn't that bad. Come on, almost benched? No way. People exaggerate Eli sooooo much because he's under a microscope in NY.

People cite Alex Smith as having a great 2nd year when having 16 TDs, and 16 INTs.

Imagine if Eli put up those #s? People would kill him.

Eli is not nearly as bad as his haters will lead you to believe. Everything he does is exaggerated 10 fold because of the market he plays for. I guarantee you that if Lossman was transplanted into NY with his same exact #s, people would kill him even more.

And thats coming from a guy who liked JP this year. I think he was very solid.


Yeah I would agree moreso with this view of Eli. He wasn't a bad QB, but he did struggle a little more than was expected for his third year. Reports of him being benched were mostly a minority of people who know very little about football, and just wanted to see Lorenzen in there.

Was he bad? No
Was he as good as some people (GRF in particular) make him out to be? Hell no.

[bigbluedefense]

Yeah I would agree moreso with this view of Eli. He wasn't a bad QB, but he did struggle a little more than was expected for his third year. Reports of him being benched were mostly a minority of people who know very little about football, and just wanted to see Lorenzen in there.

Was he bad? No
Was he as good as some people (GRF in particular) make him out to be? Hell no.

Yup. He was middle tier I would say. Not what we expected in his 3rd year. But he wasn't horrible like some say. I think thats a fair assessment of him.

Oh, and don't listen to GRF's homerific statements.

[GiantRutgersFan]

Dude, take off your giants blue colored glasses. Eli was BAD last year, bad to the point he almost got benched. He had a QB rating under 80. He didn't take his team anywhere, he lost games for them.


Yep. thats why the G-Men extended his contract for 3 years a month ago? They wanted to bench him for a 270 lb rookie backup. furthermore, the Giants went out and signed a backup just in case Eli doesnt produce this year..... oh wait, no they didnt. you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.


And he didnt take the team anywhere???? how about the playoffs? And what games did he lose for them? Seriously, I wanna know.


Stop being a homer and a hater.

[JK17]

Stop being a homer and a hater.

I laugh every time I see things like that from you.

[doingthisinsteadofwork]

Stop being a homer and a hater.YOur still argueing about this?
YOu actually need to accept the fact that Eli is a terribly inconsistent QB and move on.

[bigbluedefense]

Yep. thats why the G-Men extended his contract for 3 years a month ago? They wanted to bench him for a 270 lb rookie backup. furthermore, the Giants went out and signed a backup just in case Eli doesnt produce this year..... oh wait, no they didnt. you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.


And he didnt take the team anywhere???? how about the playoffs? And what games did he lose for them? Seriously, I wanna know.


Stop being a homer and a hater.

Seriously, what are you trying to accomplish with these threads? Why not just wait and see what happens? Youre making the rest of us look foolish. Don't force your opinions down people's throats. Just sit back, enjoy the ride, and if it works out the way you envision, then yeah say what you want afterwards.

But calling Eli the next Elway is so beyond any rational that you should expect the responses youre getting.

[draftguru151]

He is actually bringing up some decent points to the ridiculous things others are saying.

[bigbluedefense]

He is actually bringing up some decent points to the ridiculous things others are saying.

Yeah he is. But after being here for a year now, one thing Ive learned is that youre never gonna change the opinions of people on 2 subject matters.

1. Michael Vick
2. Eli Manning

Those 2 guys, people have their own personal views on, and no matter what you say to disprove them, will never sway their opinion. So why even bother?

Jesus could come down today and proclaim Eli the next messiah, and he'd still have haters. Theres no point trying to argue with people on this subject. Every now and then I will because I get so frustrated with the ignorance being spewed, but Im trying to refrain from wasting font on such an overdiscussed subject matter.

[JK17]

Yeah he is. But after being here for a year now, one thing Ive learned is that youre never gonna change the opinions of people on 2 subject matters.

1. Michael Vick
2. Eli Manning

Those 2 guys, people have their own personal views on, and no matter what you say to disprove them, will never sway their opinion. So why even bother?

Jesus could come down today and proclaim Eli the next messiah, and he'd still have haters. Theres no point trying to argue with people on this subject. Every now and then I will because I get so frustrated with the ignorance being spewed, but Im trying to refrain from wasting font on such an overdiscussed subject matter.

Hey thats not true. I joined this forum hating Eli Manning and thinking he was the epitome of bad QB. Some of the posters on here help changed my views on that. I don't think he's the second coming or anything but I've certainly taken off my colored glasses regarding Eli. Although I do know what you mean.

[Dam8610]

"Eli Manning....... John Elway"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Eli Manning sucks dude!

11 G 123 Comp 259 Att 47.5% 1663 yards 6.4 YPA 7 TD 14 INT
15 G 214 Comp 380 Att 56.3% 2598 yards 6.8 YPA 18 TD 15 INT
16 G 327 Comp 605 Att 54.0% 3891 yards 6.4 YPA 22 TD 23 INT

vs.

09 G 95 Comp 197 Att 48.2% 1043 yards 5.3 YPA 6 TD 9 INT
16 G 294 Comp 557 Att 52.8% 3762 yards 6.8 YPA 24 TD 17 INT
16 G 301 Comp 522 Att 57.7% 3244 yards 6.2 YPA 24 TD 18 INT

Which one is Eli, which is Elway, and which is better?

[bigbluedefense]

11 G 123 Comp 259 Att 47.5% 1663 yards 6.4 YPA 7 TD 14 INT
15 G 214 Comp 380 Att 56.3% 2598 yards 6.8 YPA 18 TD 15 INT
16 G 327 Comp 605 Att 54.0% 3891 yards 6.4 YPA 22 TD 23 INT

vs.

09 G 95 Comp 197 Att 48.2% 1043 yards 5.3 YPA 6 TD 9 INT
16 G 294 Comp 557 Att 52.8% 3762 yards 6.8 YPA 24 TD 17 INT
16 G 301 Comp 522 Att 57.7% 3244 yards 6.2 YPA 24 TD 18 INT

Which one is Eli, which is Elway, and which is better?

2nd one is Eli, and clearly, the #s say he's better.

The argument can be made yes. But its waaay too premature.

I bite my tongue, and wait and see. I don't want to sound like an idiot and prematurely say this or that.

[doingthisinsteadofwork]

To answer your post Elway.

[JK17]

11 G 123 Comp 259 Att 47.5% 1663 yards 6.4 YPA 7 TD 14 INT
15 G 214 Comp 380 Att 56.3% 2598 yards 6.8 YPA 18 TD 15 INT
16 G 327 Comp 605 Att 54.0% 3891 yards 6.4 YPA 22 TD 23 INT

vs.

9 G 95 Comp 197 Att 48.2% 1043 yards 5.3 YPA 6 TD 9 INT
16 G 294 Comp 557 Att 52.8% 3762 yards 6.8 YPA 24 TD 17 INT
16 G 301 Comp 522 Att 57.7% 3244 yards 6.2 YPA 24 TD 18 INT

Which one is Eli, which is Elway, and which is better?

It's been brought up before, the second one is Eli, the second one is better, but comparing Eli to Elway is more than just numbers. I think Elway had a career QB rating in the 79.9 ballpark? A lot of QBs had better numbers, but there are other things in a comparison.

Anyway, I think this is conversation is really starting to go in circles again so maybe its time to take a step back.

[doingthisinsteadofwork]

or to just lock this stupid thread.

[bored of education]

While having less weapons around him I'd rather have Losman instead of Eli.

[Dam8610]

2nd one is Eli, and clearly, the #s say he's better.

The argument can be made yes. But its waaay too premature.

I bite my tongue, and wait and see. I don't want to sound like an idiot and prematurely say this or that.

Well obviously it's a bit early to say that Eli is the next Elway, but at the same time, to say the comparison is ridiculous is pretty stupid, since it's actually a pretty accurate comparison IMO.

[bored of education]

Eli is an average to above average QB. He has many flaws, but the thing i don't see consistantly is progression

[bored of education]

Too many games where it looks like he is Roookie ELI, next game WOW good Eli, then rookie, then rookie, then rookie, then good eli.

I think this year will be a true testament of his worth.

He was drafted to be less of a project than Losman and Losman has proven progression.

Both have tough years next year.

Both are very good young QB's.

[doingthisinsteadofwork]

Well obviously it's a bit early to say that Eli is the next Elway, but at the same time, to say the comparison is ridiculous is pretty stupid, since it's actually a pretty accurate comparison IMO.
not when it can only be based off stats.

[Ewing]

Was Eli playing on defense? Is it his fault that his defense commited personal fouls and let go of VY on 4th down? When a team blows a 21 pt lead it's the defenses fault.

He wasn't playing defense but he sure as **** gave up two lame ducks to Pacman Jones.

[Non_Sequitur]

It's really too early to tell, but....

Young > Rivers
Leinart > Roethlisberger
Cutler >> E. Manning

And not to be a homer, but I'd take Clemens over Losman. I don't care if he improved to being mediocre over absolutely terrible. I like Clemens' potential.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

In regards to prospect status', I think 2004 pretty much blows 2006 out of the water.

[niel89]

this thread fails bad, it is waaaay to early to pass any real judgment on the 2006 Class. they have had one year and not one of them have played a full season

[eacantdraft]

Eli is on tv almost every week...do you really think no one else has seen him play? Your stats argument is absurd, as even you have to know stats cannot tell the full story on a player.

I don't want to waste any more space on a thread arguing about Eli, unless you really want to. We've beaten this to death in countless other threads and posts so there is really no need to do it. Comparing Eli to Elway is something I have only seen you do. Find me other Giants fans who have the same agreement...or any other fan at all and I may give you some credibility on this. If you can't I would suggest you look at almost every other post in this thread that has ridiculed that comparison.

The Eli fangirls are an embarrassment to us real Giants fans. Eli has done nothing to justify trading all of those picks for him. If more than anything else, he has brought down the Giants by sapping the Giants ability to rebuild other parts of the team.

[trademaster]

Shockey steps up in big spots. The problem with Shockey is that he was severely underutilized last year. He was used entirely too much on blocking.

He averaged about 40 yards a game receiving. Thats not really great, especially considering the pass happy offense the Giants had going last year.

Toomer is a nice #2 option. But he was injured last year and like I said, Eli was playing on a pro bowl level before Toomers injury (although Pettigout was lost for the season the same game)

And there was NO 3rd reciever on the Giants. Sinorice Moss was injured all year and was a rookie. We were relying on Tim Carter, who shouldnt even make an NFL roster....

Tiki Barber is a nice player, and a compliment to the passing game. I give you that one. But Tiki didnt really make the big play off of a pass. he had only 2 receptions that gained 20 yards. And the long was 28 yards. Plus teams didnt put 8 in the box against us so Tiki didnt help in that regard.

1st off, Tiki is a great player, and the only reason why the Giants was able to manage to sneak in the playoffs, 2nd, he is one of the best pass catching RB in the game, so with Plax, Tiki and SHockey, you cant say he didnt have any weapons, in fact he had great weapons, he has the playaction working for him, and he has a decent OL, way better than Losman O-line, and JP didnt have any running game last year, because McGahee had an off-year, he had one great weapon and that's Lee Evans, but that's it.

ANd that game with Titans, was partly his fault, that INT to Pacman Jones?

[BuffaloDraftGeek]

It's really too early to tell, but....

Young > Rivers
Leinart > Roethlisberger
Cutler >> E. Manning

And not to be a homer, but I'd take Clemens over Losman. I don't care if he improved to being mediocre over absolutely terrible. I like Clemens' potential.
I don't get that arguement at all. Talking potential, Losman definetly has more than clemens. Losman has all the athletic attributes you look for in a QB. Strong arm, very mobile, etc. And Clemens has never even played, has he? You can't call him better than Losman, who had the 10th highest QB rating in the league last year.

[Non_Sequitur]

I don't get that arguement at all. Talking potential, Losman definetly has more than clemens. Losman has all the athletic attributes you look for in a QB. Strong arm, very mobile, etc. And Clemens has never even played, has he? You can't call him better than Losman, who had the 10th highest QB rating in the league last year.

I didn't say he was better than Losman yet. That's exactly what I was saying, it's too early to tell, but I'll take the potential of Clemens over the mediocre performance of Losman. Clemens should have been the third QB off the board ahead of Cutler if he had not been injured. Strong arm, mobility, etc don't make a QB great, and besides that you say it like Clemens doesn't have those traits. He has a cannon for an arm, and great footwork. Some analysts (such as Hodge) had him as the best QB in the draft before his injury, and the 2nd best after his injury.

[Maddenhero]

And what games did he lose for them? Seriously, I wanna know.

I'm not sure about this, but didn't he kinda lose the Titans game. The game where Kiwanuka missed that sack. He threw two costly interceptions.

[bigbluedefense]

I'm not sure about this, but didn't he kinda lose the Titans game. The game where Kiwanuka missed that sack. He threw two costly interceptions.

The first one wouldn't be a pick if Burress didn't give up on the play. Most Giant fans (and teammates) blamed Plax for that one.

He just stopped running.

[dhoe20]

He wasn't playing defense but he sure as **** gave up two lame ducks to Pacman Jones.

The first wasn't his fault for two reasons. Plax gave up on the play, and there's no reason to call a deep pass on 2nd and 4 with a 21 point lead. The game was already blown before the 2nd INT.

[SuperMcgee]

I didn't say he was better than Losman yet. That's exactly what I was saying, it's too early to tell, but I'll take the potential of Clemens over the mediocre performance of Losman. Clemens should have been the third QB off the board ahead of Cutler if he had not been injured. Strong arm, mobility, etc don't make a QB great, and besides that you say it like Clemens doesn't have those traits. He has a cannon for an arm, and great footwork. Some analysts (such as Hodge) had him as the best QB in the draft before his injury, and the 2nd best after his injury.

Losman performed well above expectations this year and put up some of the better numbers in the league. If he didn't have a moron for a head coach in his first year starting Losman could be in discussion as the top QB from this class. Hoge is not my favorite QB expert, either. Clemens was a solid prospect and I probably had him graded near the same spot where I graded Losman back in 04. Factoring in your Jets fandom, I'm not going to argue against your opinion here, because it might just be a fair one. But show some more respect to Losman than calling what was an expectation-exceeding year in which he led the team and only got better when McGahee was out. He excelled in the clutch and when he was the focal point of the offense, even carrying the team. It was a breakthrough year in many ways for him, and for a QB with such potential, a year like that should be seen as more than "mediocre". Of course he's been called much, much worse.