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View Full Version : If Raiders take CJ and Russle is there..


Jagonsucker
04-08-2007, 02:59 PM
is there a chance Detroit takes him at number 2? I think Russles going to be a good QB and nows the time to draft a QB. Kitna still has another year and it could give a chance for Russle to sit out and watch.

Addict
04-08-2007, 03:14 PM
is there a chance Detroit takes him at number 2? I think Russles going to be a good QB and nows the time to draft a QB. Kitna still has another year and it could give a chance for Russle to sit out and watch.

I don't think we will, team seems okay with Kitna for now and we have other, bigger needs to attend to.

And I commend you for misspelling Russel's name every time. Do the Russle-Hussle 8)

TRJ997
04-08-2007, 03:32 PM
QB is a need for the Lion's, and I think they would be wise to take Russell if he's there. Kitna is old and mistake prone.

Addict
04-08-2007, 03:41 PM
QB is a need for the Lion's, and I think they would be wise to take Russell if he's there. Kitna is old and mistake prone.

We won't stay at number two anyway. And Quinn is much more the type for the Lions. We have bigger needs, we are not taking Russel.

And I agree that Kitna is no long term solution, but he'll do for another year, maybe two. Next years quarterback class is gonna be better (deeper) than this one, so I'd prefer to pick a defensive player (OR calvin johnson if available) and make quarterback a priority for next year.

detroit4life
04-08-2007, 04:20 PM
yea but i wish we would seem interested in him so if he does fall cleveland will try and move up to get him

Xiomera
04-08-2007, 04:22 PM
No chance we take him, but I bet Cleveland would wanna move up for him.

woodnick
04-08-2007, 04:44 PM
I don't think he fits the Mike Martz system, he's more of a pocket vertical passer in the mold of Leftwich or Culpepper. Martz likes more of a mobile timing orientated passer, i.e. Kurt Warner and for better or worse Jon kitna. With that being said I think that Cleveland will have to trade up to get him, if that is who they really want, or the Lions will be able to find a different trade partner like the Vikings, yes I know trades inside the division hardly ever happen.

Notredameleo
04-08-2007, 05:41 PM
i dont think he is a martz QB either, but i wouldn't be upset if we take him. I would much rather have quinn or a tradedown though.

Scotty D
04-08-2007, 05:49 PM
I like him a lot, but I guess he is a bad fit.

woodnick
04-08-2007, 06:26 PM
I don't know if Russell fits into the whole "Maranelli type guy," which is there way of saying that they are done trying to fit square pegs in round holes. Maranelli type also refers to the players love for the game and fit in the system more so than being a perfect individual which is why Ernie Sims is a great example of that with the Lions willing to draft him after being arrested for assaulting his girlfriend.

TacticaLion
04-08-2007, 08:42 PM
I don't think they'd go after Russell... I think Quinn would be the pick over him.

Regardless, neither will be Lions, so I'm happy.

TRJ997
04-08-2007, 09:48 PM
There are 2 things that no one on this board can make me believe:

1. The Lions will win more games in the next 10 years by picking CJ or a defensive player over JR or BQ.

2. The Lions will have a shot at an equal caliber QB in the next 2 or 3 drafts.

Moving down and getting 2 to 3 quality starters instead of taking a QB at 2 could be a better move, but unless they get a really good offer, I don't see any logical reason for them to pass on a potential franchise QB. It's not like they are in a "win now" mode, and Kitna is not going to lead the Lions to a Super Bowl, so why not take a chance on a guy who could? Adding another WR to the mix, even CJesus, just might win them an extra game or two a year. While a real QB, under 35, who doesn't throw 20+ picks a game could make Detroit's offense as scary as Indy's. Detroit has a young legit #1 and a young legit #2 WR . . . get someone to deliver the ball, protect him, and win some games.

Mythos
04-08-2007, 10:08 PM
There are 2 things that no one on this board can make me believe:

1. The Lions will win more games in the next 10 years by picking CJ or a defensive player over JR or BQ.

2. The Lions will have a shot at an equal caliber QB in the next 2 or 3 drafts.

Moving down and getting 2 to 3 quality starters instead of taking a QB at 2 could be a better move, but unless they get a really good offer, I don't see any logical reason for them to pass on a potential franchise QB. It's not like they are in a "win now" mode, and Kitna is not going to lead the Lions to a Super Bowl, so why not take a chance on a guy who could? Adding another WR to the mix, even CJesus, just might win them an extra game or two a year. While a real QB, under 35, who doesn't throw 20+ picks a game could make Detroit's offense as scary as Indy's. Detroit has a young legit #1 and a young legit #2 WR . . . get someone to deliver the ball, protect him, and win some games.


Completely disagree. I think they are in a win now mode. I see us getting two impact defensive players and we're a lot more than a QB away from a superbowl. As to equal caliber QBs in '08 or '09, it's a freakin' crapshoot. Millen got roasted and I don't think he's that eager to take the risk again. Solid D + average QB looks a lot safer.

TacticaLion
04-09-2007, 12:04 AM
Completely disagree. I think they are in a win now mode. I see us getting two impact defensive players and we're a lot more than a QB away from a superbowl. As to equal caliber QBs in '08 or '09, it's a freakin' crapshoot. Millen got roasted and I don't think he's that eager to take the risk again. Solid D + average QB looks a lot safer.
I don't think it's the fans thinking that we can "win now", but the coaches/team. They WANT to "win now", and want a player that can help them NOW.

That being said, I read an interesting article the other day about first round QBs... and how only 2 (2!) of the QBs drafted in the first round within the last 4-5-6 years (or something) have won a playoff game (Roethlisberger and Grossman). What did both of those teams (Steelers and Bears) have in common? A great defense.

That article was also misleading... as most of the playoff QBs (Peyton Manning, Rex Grossman, Drew Brees, Chad Pennington, Steve McNair, Phillip Rivers and Eli Manning) were drafted in the first round. Interesting enough, two of the playoff QBs were undrafted (Jeff Garcia and Tony Romo), two were drafted in the 6th round (of course, Tom Brady and Matt Hasselbeck) and one in the eighth round (Trent Green).

But, that's also misleading... how many of those 1st round QBs played for the team that drafted them? Manning, Grossman, Pennington, Rivers and Manning (yes, they count).

What does this tell us? You can either succeed with a great defense... or with Peyton Manning. Since Peyton isn't eligible for this year's draft, let's draft defense.

TRJ997
04-09-2007, 07:12 AM
Completely disagree. I think they are in a win now mode. I see us getting two impact defensive players and we're a lot more than a QB away from a superbowl. As to equal caliber QBs in '08 or '09, it's a freakin' crapshoot. Millen got roasted and I don't think he's that eager to take the risk again. Solid D + average QB looks a lot safer.

The Lions have won 3, 5, 6, 5, 3, and 2 games respectively for the past 6 seasons. They have some good young players, a first time head coach, and they aren't in cap trouble. No one on that staff is getting fired if the Lions go 8-8 next year. They are not in a win now mode. They are, however, in a situation where they need to start showing some improvement, and a franchise QB is a good step toward building a winner. I'm not saying that the Lions should ignore the defense. I just think they should take the best value pick (QB), which is also a major position of need, in the 1st round. Then they can add quality defensive players in the 2nd and 3rd.

TRJ997
04-09-2007, 07:23 AM
What does this tell us? You can either succeed with a great defense... or with Peyton Manning. Since Peyton isn't eligible for this year's draft, let's draft defense.

I like a lot of your analysis, but I would change this last part to be you can either succeed with a great defense or a franchise QB. While franchise QB's can be had all over the draft, you are much more likely to find one at the top of the first.

TacticaLion
04-09-2007, 10:52 AM
I like a lot of your analysis, but I would change this last part to be you can either succeed with a great defense or a franchise QB. While franchise QB's can be had all over the draft, you are much more likely to find one at the top of the first.
Heh... thanks. The ending was more of a joke, although it seems true at times. The Bucs? Great defense. The Steelers? Great defense. The Pats? Great defense (and a great QB... which, I guess, is how you win 3). The Colts? Peyton Manning.

It's true that you can find a "franchise QB" all over the draft... but if someone knew what Tom Brady would be before his draft, he would've been one of the top 3 picks (1st, most likely). Most believe that a "franchise QB" is one drafted with the first few picks... but I think most QBs can thrive in the right situation. On that note, I'd rather draft defense in round 1 and take Stanton in round 2-3.

woodnick
04-09-2007, 11:17 AM
In 2002 there were 2 franchise QBs and 1 franchise defender Texans draft Carr #1, then #2 was Julius Peppers, #3 Joey Harrington. Which of the Three would people want to have. And if anybody wants to have the dillusional thought that the Texans would do it all over again see last years draft where they chose Mario over Bush and Young, which they made a huge mistake. But how can people not see that Quinn gets raddled with any type of pressure, and that is assured to happen with the Lions O-line and, more importantly, Martz scheme because EVERY eligible receiver goes out so they don't protect against the blitz well.

woodnick
04-09-2007, 11:19 AM
Heck, MSU trounced Quinn until they decided that they felt bad for ruining Quinn's heisman chance and #1 pick status. If State can raddle Quinn that bad, just imagine what the Bears would do to him.

TRJ997
04-09-2007, 12:53 PM
Heck, MSU trounced Quinn until they decided that they felt bad for ruining Quinn's heisman chance and #1 pick status. If State can raddle Quinn that bad, just imagine what the Bears would do to him.

Maybe you should be an NFL scout since you know that Quinn will be a bust while all of these donkeys getting paid by actual NFL teams think Quinn is a top 5 pick. Any player in college, even CJ, can bust. That doesn't mean you should never take a chance on a franchise QB, IMO.

DeMonikk1
04-09-2007, 01:16 PM
I wouldn't mind Russell, if they were there, I'd rather see Brady Quinn. I hope they trade down still but JaMarcus wouldn't be THAT awful to have. And woodnick, you logic is outstanding. Tool.

Addict
04-09-2007, 02:13 PM
Heh... thanks. The ending was more of a joke, although it seems true at times. The Bucs? Great defense. The Steelers? Great defense. The Pats? Great defense (and a great QB... which, I guess, is how you win 3). The Colts? Peyton Manning.

It's true that you can find a "franchise QB" all over the draft... but if someone knew what Tom Brady would be before his draft, he would've been one of the top 3 picks (1st, most likely). Most believe that a "franchise QB" is one drafted with the first few picks... but I think most QBs can thrive in the right situation. On that note, I'd rather draft defense in round 1 and take Stanton in round 2-3.

Tactica, we agree on lots of subjects, but here... no. Fact of the matter is that if you want a franchise quarterback, you're most likely to find the guy in round one, preferably at the top. The Brady's of this world are the exception, and the fact they are the exception makes the rule that you don't find franchise quarterbacks late in the draft. Peyton Manning is a great quarterback, but let's not forget he is also a result of good coaching and the right system, any quarterback is.

I've said it before, you want balance. A great defense will keep you in games, a great quarterback will win you games. A bad defense will lose you games, but so will a bad quarterback. Defensive powerhouses are great, but without an offense they don't get nowhere (look at the Ravens last year).

I agree that we have more holes to fix than steady positions on the D, but don't say that drafting a quarterback is less important. I'd like to see us draft a top guy next year, rather than a Stanton, since I feel he'll be a project and a project is the last thing we need.

TacticaLion
04-09-2007, 05:07 PM
Tactica, we agree on lots of subjects, but here... no. Fact of the matter is that if you want a franchise quarterback, you're most likely to find the guy in round one, preferably at the top. The Brady's of this world are the exception, and the fact they are the exception makes the rule that you don't find franchise quarterbacks late in the draft. Peyton Manning is a great quarterback, but let's not forget he is also a result of good coaching and the right system, any quarterback is.

I've said it before, you want balance. A great defense will keep you in games, a great quarterback will win you games. A bad defense will lose you games, but so will a bad quarterback. Defensive powerhouses are great, but without an offense they don't get nowhere (look at the Ravens last year).

I agree that we have more holes to fix than steady positions on the D, but don't say that drafting a quarterback is less important. I'd like to see us draft a top guy next year, rather than a Stanton, since I feel he'll be a project and a project is the last thing we need.You're right... with the logic that the best prospect is picked first. A higher pick is expected to be a better player than a player picked later in the draft... but it isn't always true. If Harrington had gone to a team with a great OLine, great receivers and a great running game, he'd probably be a great QB. He came to a team that could hardly protect him... and wanted him to succeed immediately. Now, he's looking for a job.

I look at QBs like Matt Hasselbeck. Is he really THAT good? I don't think he is. But, he's good enough to manage a game and make a good throw (and having Alexander helps). I also look at a QB like Brad Johnson. He led the Bucs to the Super Bowl... the SUPER BOWL! Is he an incredible QB? No. But, he can manage a game and avoid making mistakes. Hell, Rex Grossman ALMOST WON A SUPER BOWL! Is Rex Grossman a great QB? Youbetterwatchyourmouth. But, he had a great defense behind him. And, Rivers looked great this year (nevermind that OLine and that... what's his name?... LT?).

Then, I look at QBs like David Carr. Is he really THAT bad? I also don't think he is. It's a rough situation for him, and hopefully he thrives in Carolina.

My point? A lot of QBs can thrive in the right conditions. I think we should build an incredible defense and work on the OLine... but I think the defense should be the focus this year. We're in a position to take some great players this year... Adams, Willis, Abiamiri, Spencer, Meriweather... players that can put our defense over the top. I'd like to go that route... give Marinelli everything he needs to be successful.

woodnick
04-09-2007, 05:31 PM
Maybe you should be an NFL scout since you know that Quinn will be a bust while all of these donkeys getting paid by actual NFL teams think Quinn is a top 5 pick. Any player in college, even CJ, can bust. That doesn't mean you should never take a chance on a franchise QB, IMO.

You sound like a golden domer. Still sore at the Spartans flag in your field?

woodnick
04-09-2007, 05:36 PM
Maybe you should be an NFL scout since you know that Quinn will be a bust while all of these donkeys getting paid by actual NFL teams think Quinn is a top 5 pick. Any player in college, even CJ, can bust. That doesn't mean you should never take a chance on a franchise QB, IMO.

Good thing that all these nfl scouts are different than the ones that drafted Leaf, Akili Smith, Cade Mcown, Joey Harrington, etc.. Wow, good thing all those scouts that predicted those top QB ratings got fired!

woodnick
04-09-2007, 05:39 PM
I wouldn't mind Russell, if they were there, I'd rather see Brady Quinn. I hope they trade down still but JaMarcus wouldn't be THAT awful to have. And woodnick, you logic is outstanding. Tool.

Thanks for the kind words and insight.

TRJ997
04-09-2007, 08:36 PM
Good thing that all these nfl scouts are different than the ones that drafted Leaf, Akili Smith, Cade Mcown, Joey Harrington, etc.. Wow, good thing all those scouts that predicted those top QB ratings got fired!

Lame.

Every draft has busts, but that hardly makes your analysis valid. Should I go down the list of non-busts from every draft? However, I bet you're right about the fact that the scouts that got behind Ryan Leaf have been fired, because NFL owners aren't stupid. They earned millions of dollars in their lives and don't want to throw it away on a bust player. NFL scouting is getting better every year and things are a lot different now than they were nine years ago when Leaf was drafted.

My original point is that there are people who know a lot more about football than you or me who think JR has what it takes to be a franchise QB. If they are right, then Detroit would be VERY wise to take him.

woodnick
04-09-2007, 09:38 PM
Lame.

Every draft has busts, but that hardly makes your analysis valid. Should I go down the list of non-busts from every draft? However, I bet you're right about the fact that the scouts that got behind Ryan Leaf have been fired, because NFL owners aren't stupid. They earned millions of dollars in their lives and don't want to throw it away on a bust player. NFL scouting is getting better every year and things are a lot different now than they were nine years ago when Leaf was drafted.

My original point is that there are people who know a lot more about football than you or me who think JR has what it takes to be a franchise QB. If they are right, then Detroit would be VERY wise to take him.

I never said JR wouldn't be a franchise QB, I simply said that he wouldn'tfit into Martz' system and what he historically had/used for his QB. My negative views of a player were geared towards Brady Quinn, never Russell.

woodnick
04-09-2007, 09:42 PM
Lame.

Every draft has busts, but that hardly makes your analysis valid. Should I go down the list of non-busts from every draft? However, I bet you're right about the fact that the scouts that got behind Ryan Leaf have been fired, because NFL owners aren't stupid. They earned millions of dollars in their lives and don't want to throw it away on a bust player. NFL scouting is getting better every year and things are a lot different now than they were nine years ago when Leaf was drafted.

My original point is that there are people who know a lot more about football than you or me who think JR has what it takes to be a franchise QB. If they are right, then Detroit would be VERY wise to take him.


Oh, by the way, your expertize with how NFL teams are run is pretty poor.
[http://www.chargers.com/team/front_office/jimmy-raye.htm?&modulePageId=7
last time I checked this guy is still in office and he got a freakin' promotion two years after they drafted Leaf, but thanks for riping on my thoughts and how innacurate they are.

reinar
04-10-2007, 02:45 AM
whats funny about Quinn, is how many Notre Dame fans, actually think he is overrated, yet somehow, the NFL doesnt.

tonight on Path to the Draft, they talked about how LSU ran a much more detailed, tricky, motion oriented offense (aka Martz system?) then Notre Dame did. so add that with his athletic ability and rocket arm, and JR is a good QB, I like him, just not enough to not take some other glaring hole that neesd to be filled, instead of a QB that would not be an immediate improvement (I like Kitna, and think he will do the 4k yds again, and with cutdown fumbles, adn INT's) if we can support him with less sacks, more time to throw, I think it will be a phenominal year for us.

TRJ997
04-10-2007, 09:11 AM
Oh, by the way, your expertize with how NFL teams are run is pretty poor.
[http://www.chargers.com/team/front_office/jimmy-raye.htm?&modulePageId=7
last time I checked this guy is still in office and he got a freakin' promotion two years after they drafted Leaf, but thanks for riping on my thoughts and how innacurate they are.

Wow. You really went into the woodwork for that one. Good job.

I imagine that he must have had some other success in order to get his promotion. I got off track with my point about scouts being fired for bad picks, but I still believe that these guys hit way more than they miss and that both Quinn and Russell are legit franchise prospects.

woodnick
04-10-2007, 11:43 AM
Wow. You really went into the woodwork for that one. Good job.

I imagine that he must have had some other success in order to get his promotion. I got off track with my point about scouts being fired for bad picks, but I still believe that these guys hit way more than they miss and that both Quinn and Russell are legit franchise prospects.

Yeah,I do my homework. I agree, both are legit franchise prospects. IMO I just haven't seen Martz go after a high profile QB in his career. Now, I think that he knows he can develop/coach up a "lesser" prospect and so he prefers to use high draft picks on other positions.

Addict
04-10-2007, 12:47 PM
Yeah,I do my homework. I agree, both are legit franchise prospects. IMO I just haven't seen Martz go after a high profile QB in his career. Now, I think that he knows he can develop/coach up a "lesser" prospect and so he prefers to use high draft picks on other positions.

I agree largely just a few things I'd like to point out.
I'm really tired of seeing JR fans calling Quinn a bust in the making and BQ fans doing the opposite.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves, Martz will probably out of Detroit after next season, gone head coaching to replace some rookie/sophomore head choach who messed it up.
And let's please just all agree that both JR and BQ both have their qualities and that they'll most likely do very well in this league.

woodnick
04-10-2007, 12:58 PM
I agree largely just a few things I'd like to point out.
I'm really tired of seeing JR fans calling Quinn a bust in the making and BQ fans doing the opposite.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves, Martz will probably out of Detroit after next season, gone head coaching to replace some rookie/sophomore head choach who messed it up.
And let's please just all agree that both JR and BQ both have their qualities and that they'll most likely do very well in this league.

I agree, I hope Detroit passes on both just like they did last year with Cutler and Leinart though. I know Martz is a great offensive mind and has the ability to do god knows what with an offense, but I'm a fan of the 3yds and a cloud of dust theory so if he leaves, best of luck. I'm a big ten man, MSU Alum, and I'm sick of UM pounding the ground against us for the win, in other words the more phsysical team usually wins same as in the pros.

woodnick
04-10-2007, 01:14 PM
ESPN NFL rumors "Intriguing thought
<Apr. 10> Should JaMarcus Russell fall out of the No. 1 spot, he will cause considerable thinking with the Lions, writes John Clayton. Although the Lions don't want to draft a quarterback, Russell has the type of strong arm that will make them pause for a second." http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/features/rumors

I trust what John Clayton says more than anything I can find. IMO The interesting part of this was Clayton stating that the Lions "don't want a to draft a QB."

Addict
04-10-2007, 01:17 PM
ESPN NFL rumors "Intriguing thought
<Apr. 10> Should JaMarcus Russell fall out of the No. 1 spot, he will cause considerable thinking with the Lions, writes John Clayton. Although the Lions don't want to draft a quarterback, Russell has the type of strong arm that will make them pause for a second." http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/features/rumors

I trust what John Clayton says more than anything I can find. IMO The interesting part of this was Clayton stating that the Lions "don't want a to draft a QB."

They don't they've said it all this time, they feel Kitna will last them a few more seasons, and that they have bigger needs to attend to.

I'd see them draft one next year though.

woodnick
04-10-2007, 01:49 PM
They don't they've said it all this time, they feel Kitna will last them a few more seasons, and that they have bigger needs to attend to.

I'd see them draft one next year though.

I know, I was just trying to justify my previous posts a little more.

dreadedluck
04-10-2007, 09:30 PM
Martz hates Russell more then Quinn, and we all know how much Martz hates Quinn. NO CHANCE we will take Russell and Cleveland trading with us not likely either. M and M boys have already confessed they don't want a QB so I think are leverage is not good from a top 6 team.

reinar
04-10-2007, 11:50 PM
well if russell goes to oakland, like is most likely, browns will have to trade with us for quinn, cause if they dont, i bet we trade with whomever wants him. and they are out of luck for a QB, again.