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View Full Version : Which Corner is the best in the NFC East?


jsagan77
07-23-2006, 10:04 AM
Which Corner is the best in the NFC East?

I saw this on a Skins site, but of course that is biased. I'd like to see an unbias opinion so I brought it here to you fine folks.

SeanTaylorRIP
07-23-2006, 10:06 AM
A lot of those guys are future stars, but as of now if I had to choose 1 corner for a game to do the best it would be Shawn Springs. He is great in coverage and one of the best blitzing DB's in the game.

jsagan77
07-23-2006, 10:06 AM
I got to Go with Springs on this one with Newman and Madison on his tail. He has been shutting down TO since he's been in the league and many feel he is the best WR out there right now.

07-23-2006, 10:07 AM
Right now its Newman but some time in the near future it will be Rogers.

jsagan77
07-23-2006, 10:10 AM
Right now its Newman but some time in the near future it will be Rogers.

I hope your right but Newman had an amazing year last year. I do believe Carlos will be a main rival of his..

Smooth Criminal
07-23-2006, 10:11 AM
I'll take Lito.

Ho0k Em'
07-23-2006, 10:13 AM
I'll take Lito.

Ask any Jets fan who the best CB on their team is I garuntee they say Sheldon.

I'd take Newman.

LTgiants
07-23-2006, 10:28 AM
i had to vote for madison

i just wish i can get another vote for webster since he will the best cb in the nfc east in the future

Shane P. Hallam
07-23-2006, 10:29 AM
Lito or Sheldon. Anyone who says Newman, ugh, did anyone actually seem him last year? He almost got benched...

Splat
07-23-2006, 10:30 AM
When 100% Shawn Springs.

elway777
07-23-2006, 10:30 AM
I'll take Lito.

Ask any Jets fan who the best CB on their team is I garuntee they say Sheldon.

I'd take Newman.


I gurantee no "jets" fan would say either were their best corners on "their" team. :?

http://emoticons4u.com/cartoon/1244.gif

Modano
07-23-2006, 10:52 AM
Lito or Sheldon. Anyone who says Newman, ugh, did anyone actually seem him last year? He almost got benched...

Are you serious?

Newman was the #1 CB in Dallas all year and had pretty good success against some good WR..
He suffered the "sophomore slump" in 2004 but last year he was a very solid player and QB didn't throw at him so much because of his good playing..

The one CB from the NFC east who really sucked last year was, without question, Lito Sheppard. Terry Glenn was one of the many WRs that owned him last year..

Gribble
07-23-2006, 11:00 AM
Lito or Sheldon. Anyone who says Newman, ugh, did anyone actually seem him last year? He almost got benched...

I remember him not allowing any TDs last year...

SuperMcGee
07-23-2006, 11:02 AM
Only one vote for Shelodn Brown? I understand the Newman argument to this, but 16-1?

Ho0k Em'
07-23-2006, 11:09 AM
I'll take Lito.

Ask any Jets fan who the best CB on their team is I garuntee they say Sheldon.

I'd take Newman.


I gurantee no "jets" fan would say either were their best corners on "their" team. :?

http://emoticons4u.com/cartoon/1244.gif

Woops Eagles

At least they're both green

P-L
07-23-2006, 11:25 AM
Lito or Sheldon. Anyone who says Newman, ugh, did anyone actually seem him last year? He almost got benched...

I remember him not allowing any TDs last year...

I remember, from the games I saw, him not being thrown at that much...

07-23-2006, 11:25 AM
Newman is winning? hahahaha yeah Cowboys fans, ok. He's already 28 and isn't half as good as Springs is.

draftguru151
07-23-2006, 11:36 AM
i had to vote for madison

i just wish i can get another vote for webster since he will the best cb in the nfc east in the future

Carlos Rogers. :shock:

Texico From Mexico
07-23-2006, 11:43 AM
Newman is winning? hahahaha yeah Cowboys fans, ok. He's already 28 and isn't half as good as Springs is.

Hmm there he goes bashing the boys in another thread. You live for it don't you? :wink:

07-23-2006, 11:45 AM
Newman is winning? hahahaha yeah Cowboys fans, ok. He's already 28 and isn't half as good as Springs is.

Hmm there he goes bashing the boys in another thread. You live for it don't you? :wink:

Only because the Cowboys are like the Yankees, everyone and there mother is a Cowboys fan just because they're the Cowboys. They're more Cowboys fans than people who actually live in the state of Texas.

Canadian_kid16
07-23-2006, 11:47 AM
I think that it is either Sheppard and/or Sheldon Brown...and I hate the Eagles...but those guys can flat out play

Modano
07-23-2006, 11:48 AM
Newman is winning? hahahaha yeah Cowboys fans, ok. He's already 28 and isn't half as good as Springs is.

Hmm there he goes bashing the boys in another thread. You live for it don't you? :wink:

Only because the Cowboys are like the Yankees, everyone and there mother is a Cowboys fan just because they're the Cowboys. They're more Cowboys fans than people who actually live in the state of Texas.

Yes there are, I'm from Italy :D

HawkeyeFan
07-23-2006, 11:50 AM
Shawn Springs

Terrence Newman is overrated as hell.

Texico From Mexico
07-23-2006, 11:54 AM
Terrence Newman

Shawn Springs is overrated as hell.

HawkeyeFan
07-23-2006, 11:57 AM
Shawn Springs is overrated as hell. :roll:

07-23-2006, 11:59 AM
Shawn Springs

Terrence Newman is overrated as hell.

Terrence Newman

Shawn Springs is overrated as hell.

Personally I don't think Hell is overrated at all. I think hell is definatly legit and has a lot of upside.

Jensen
07-23-2006, 12:01 PM
Shawn Springs right now.

HawkeyeFan
07-23-2006, 12:05 PM
Shawn Springs

Terrence Newman is overrated.

Shawn Springs

Terrence Newman is overrated.

Personally I don't think Hell is overrated at all. I think hell is definatly legit and has a lot of upside.Haha. Changed mine!

MossRandleElLloyd
07-23-2006, 12:15 PM
The over abundance of Boys fans on here makes the vote sway to Newman...polls dont work on NFLDC.

We all know who is the best corner in the NFCE.

Texico From Mexico
07-23-2006, 12:28 PM
The over abundance of Boys fans on here makes the vote sway to Newman...polls dont work on NFLDC.

We all know who is the best corner in the NFCE.

Yes we do, its Newman of course. This board is just full of Cowboys haters...what is it that you hate so much? That we are the most sucessful team since 1960? That we have won 5 superbowls and been to 8? That we are called Americas Team? That we had a QB called Captain Comeback? That we are loved all over the world more than any other NFL franchise? Why all the anger anytime a Cowboy player is mentioned on this board? Why all the crying anytime a Cowboy player wins in a poll? A blind man can see all the bias in a New York minute...hey are some of you guys actually HOF voters in disguise?

Modano
07-23-2006, 12:32 PM
The over abundance of Boys fans on here makes the vote sway to Newman...polls dont work on NFLDC.

We all know who is the best corner in the NFCE.

Not all of the Cowboys fans are homer.. Am I wrong or you was the one who said that Cooley is better than Witten?

Staubach12
07-23-2006, 12:34 PM
Lito is my pick for now. I think Springs or Newman could be the best after this year, but for now I take Lito Sheppard.

SeanTaylorRIP
07-23-2006, 12:39 PM
Can't say that Shawn Springs is overrated. In 2004 he had 5 INT's, 6 Sacks, 89 tackles and was only named as a 3rd alternate for the Pro Bowl, that's no respect.

Dillen
07-23-2006, 01:04 PM
Lito is my pick for now. I think Springs or Newman could be the best after this year, but for now I take Lito Sheppard.
I guess the 3 or 4 times Lito got absolutely TORCHED against Dallas last year arent in your memory?

Whoever voted for Lito are the people that vote for Deltha O'neal to the Pro Bowl. Sheldon is WAY better than Lito. It's absolutely ridiculous Lito has twice as many votes as Sheldon. Absolutely ridiculous.

cunningham06
07-23-2006, 01:45 PM
The Eagles get no respect, this question is a joke it is easily Sheldon Brown. Terrence Newman is extremely overrated, and Shawn Springs is getting old and is not the player he used to be. Springs only had 1 pick last season, and 8 pass deflections. That is very mediocre, and he isn't as good in run support as he used to be. Brown is excellent in coverage, doesn't give up nearly as many receptions as Newman does, and is better at blitzing then the already mentioned cornerbacks. He had 21 passes defensed last season, which is more than Springs or Newman can say. Also when the Eagles needed it most, he made big plays. Against San Diego he forced a fumble on SD's last drive to end their chances at victory. He also returned an interception for a TD which sparked the Eagles comeback in KC. Lito Sheppard I will admit was terrible last season, but Sheldon was great. This poll is ridiculous because this site is infested with Cowboys fans who refuse to acknowledge that there are better players than they have that are not on the Cowboys.

cunningham06
07-23-2006, 01:48 PM
Lito is my pick for now. I think Springs or Newman could be the best after this year, but for now I take Lito Sheppard.

Lito was so bad last season. If the Eagles ever gave up a big play in the secondary, it was usually the fault of Lito Sheppard. He was actually outplayed last season by Rod Hood, our nickel back when Lito got injured.

Texico From Mexico
07-23-2006, 02:01 PM
This poll is ridiculous because this site is infested with Cowboys fans who refuse to acknowledge that there are better players than they have that are not on the Cowboys.

Actually its infested with people that know little about football or its players. Its a site where we want to say Derrick Thomas is a top 3 Linebacker of all time, that Brett Farve is a top 4 QB of all time etc..etc...just plain silly! Thats the problem with the board. Not that its infested with Cowboy fans...if anything its infested with Cowboy haters. So yes these polls are a joke.....

cunningham06
07-23-2006, 02:04 PM
This poll is ridiculous because this site is infested with Cowboys fans who refuse to acknowledge that there are better players than they have that are not on the Cowboys.

Actually its infested with people that know little about football or its players. Its a site where we want to say Derrick Thomas is a top 3 Linebacker of all time, that Brett Farve is a top 4 QB of all time etc..etc...just plain silly! Thats the problem with the board. Not that its infested with Cowboy fans...if anything its infested with Cowboy haters. So yes these polls are a joke.....

So why is Newman winning these polls by such a large margin if everyones a cowboys hater, even though he isn't nearly as good as Cowboys fans, particularly Balaskonis will lead you to believe? What does Derrick Thomas have to do with this topic. Again it seems as if you are trying to brag about being a middle aged man on an internet forum. :roll:

cunningham06
07-23-2006, 02:09 PM
By the way, I'm not saying all Cowboys fans are homers, Staubach12 has yet to make a homer comment that I've seen.

critesy
07-23-2006, 02:11 PM
sheldon then springs

critesy
07-23-2006, 02:13 PM
way too many cowboy fans on here when ANTHONY HENRY has 3 votes :shock: :shock:

M.O.T.H.
07-23-2006, 02:19 PM
way too many cowboy fans on here when ANTHONY HENRY has 3 votes :shock: :shock:

Anthony Henry was better than Newman before he got injured last year.

elway777
07-23-2006, 02:24 PM
way too many cowboy fans on here when ANTHONY HENRY has 3 votes :shock: :shock:

Anthony Henry is a very good phyiscal corner,You obviosuly havent seen him play.

07-23-2006, 02:24 PM
Shawn Springs

Terrence Newman is overrated as hell.

Terrence Newman

Shawn Springs is overrated as hell.

Personally I don't think Hell is overrated at all. I think hell is definatly legit and has a lot of upside.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

MossRandleElLloyd
07-23-2006, 05:31 PM
way too many cowboy fans on here when ANTHONY HENRY has 3 votes :shock: :shock:

Anthony Henry was better than Newman before he got injured last year.

Brandon Lloyd destroyed Anthony Henry last season, btw.

4 rec 142 yrds 2 tds...

Hawks, Sox and Bears o my
07-23-2006, 05:35 PM
i'm a not a fan of the boys, eagles or skins but Sheldon Brown is the best CB in this division

07-23-2006, 05:37 PM
Shocker, Cowboys are always ahead in the polls. I wonder why. :lol:

Brodeur
07-23-2006, 05:52 PM
The over abundance of Boys fans on here makes the vote sway to Newman...polls dont work on NFLDC.

We all know who is the best corner in the NFCE.

Yes we do, its Newman of course. This board is just full of Cowboys haters...what is it that you hate so much? That we are the most sucessful team since 1960? That we have won 5 superbowls and been to 8? That we are called Americas Team? That we had a QB called Captain Comeback? That we are loved all over the world more than any other NFL franchise? Why all the anger anytime a Cowboy player is mentioned on this board? Why all the crying anytime a Cowboy player wins in a poll? A blind man can see all the bias in a New York minute...hey are some of you guys actually HOF voters in disguise?

Why are they so hated? Because they get every damn call they can get. Refs do whatever they can to sway things the Cowboys way. Ask any sane Lions fan about the game last year. Ask any sane Redskin fan which way the refs favor in the games. Hate is too weak of a word to describe my distaste for the Cowboys. A good portion of the fans are also extremely cocky and arrogant about their team.

I'd take Sheldon Brown, because I can and because I think he's the best corner in the NFC East.

duckseason
07-23-2006, 05:54 PM
I'm not sure about who the best corner in the east is right now. What I can't get past is all the people saying Newman is so overrated. Please, one of you please explain to me what the job of a corner is, and then tell me where Newman was lacking last year. What was his deficiency? How can he be overrated when he didn't even make the pro bowl? What more can we ask of him? Just because he is dominating this poll doesn't make him overrated. Polls on here are worthless. What makes him underrated, is the fact that nobody (outside of dallas fans) mentions him among the elite corners, (when you watch a Cowboys game, what member of the secondary has everybody on his nuts?) when his play would indicate otherwise. I laugh when people mention Lito Sheppard as elite, while ignoring Newman. If Newman isn't best in the East, he's neck and neck with Sheldon Brown and Shawn Springs. Tough for me to say. I like all 3. Fact is, the most indispensible member of the Dallas secondary is Newman, not Roy Williams. Newman is more deserving of a trip to Hawaii, IMO.

MossRandleElLloyd
07-23-2006, 06:12 PM
I'm not sure about who the best corner in the east is right now. What I can't get past is all the people saying Newman is so overrated. Please, one of you please explain to me what the job of a corner is, and then tell me where Newman was lacking last year. What was his deficiency? How can he be overrated when he didn't even make the pro bowl? What more can we ask of him? Just because he is dominating this poll doesn't make him overrated. Polls on here are worthless. What makes him underrated, is the fact that nobody (outside of dallas fans) mentions him among the elite corners, (when you watch a Cowboys game, what member of the secondary has everybody on his nuts?) when his play would indicate otherwise. I laugh when people mention Lito Sheppard as elite, while ignoring Newman. If Newman isn't best in the East, he's neck and neck with Sheldon Brown and Shawn Springs. Tough for me to say. I like all 3. Fact is, the most indispensible member of the Dallas secondary is Newman, not Roy Williams. Newman is more deserving of a trip to Hawaii, IMO.

well said, i agree with everything here.

cunningham06
07-23-2006, 06:31 PM
I'm not sure about who the best corner in the east is right now. What I can't get past is all the people saying Newman is so overrated. Please, one of you please explain to me what the job of a corner is, and then tell me where Newman was lacking last year. What was his deficiency? How can he be overrated when he didn't even make the pro bowl? What more can we ask of him? Just because he is dominating this poll doesn't make him overrated. Polls on here are worthless. What makes him underrated, is the fact that nobody (outside of dallas fans) mentions him among the elite corners, (when you watch a Cowboys game, what member of the secondary has everybody on his nuts?) when his play would indicate otherwise. I laugh when people mention Lito Sheppard as elite, while ignoring Newman. If Newman isn't best in the East, he's neck and neck with Sheldon Brown and Shawn Springs. Tough for me to say. I like all 3. Fact is, the most indispensible member of the Dallas secondary is Newman, not Roy Williams. Newman is more deserving of a trip to Hawaii, IMO.

I'm not saying he's bad, he is a very solid starter. He gets his job done very well, but I wouldn't say he is better than Brown. Brown breaks up more passes, and doesn't give up as many receptions. He is better in coverage, while he isn't as fast as Newman, he is better at blitzing and is excellent in run support. The weak link in the Eagles secondary last season at least was Lito Sheppard, he gave up a lot of big plays. Newman didn't give up many td's because it was much easier to just throw the ball over Roy Williams, or other less talented members of the secondary. IMO he is a good cornerback, but on this site he is overrated. Not by everyone, just a few select cowboy fans. He is not a shutdown corner, and not a top 5 corner like some say, but to be fair neither is Brown. Both are good corners, but Brown is more well rounded then Newman.

Shiver
07-23-2006, 06:44 PM
Sheldon Brown

DMWSackMachine
07-23-2006, 07:18 PM
I'm not sure about who the best corner in the east is right now. What I can't get past is all the people saying Newman is so overrated. Please, one of you please explain to me what the job of a corner is, and then tell me where Newman was lacking last year. What was his deficiency? How can he be overrated when he didn't even make the pro bowl? What more can we ask of him? Just because he is dominating this poll doesn't make him overrated. Polls on here are worthless. What makes him underrated, is the fact that nobody (outside of dallas fans) mentions him among the elite corners, (when you watch a Cowboys game, what member of the secondary has everybody on his nuts?) when his play would indicate otherwise. I laugh when people mention Lito Sheppard as elite, while ignoring Newman. If Newman isn't best in the East, he's neck and neck with Sheldon Brown and Shawn Springs. Tough for me to say. I like all 3. Fact is, the most indispensible member of the Dallas secondary is Newman, not Roy Williams. Newman is more deserving of a trip to Hawaii, IMO.

I'm not saying he's bad, he is a very solid starter. He gets his job done very well, but I wouldn't say he is better than Brown. Brown breaks up more passes, and doesn't give up as many receptions. He is better in coverage, while he isn't as fast as Newman, he is better at blitzing and is excellent in run support. The weak link in the Eagles secondary last season at least was Lito Sheppard, he gave up a lot of big plays. Newman didn't give up many td's because it was much easier to just throw the ball over Roy Williams, or other less talented members of the secondary. IMO he is a good cornerback, but on this site he is overrated. Not by everyone, just a few select cowboy fans. He is not a shutdown corner, and not a top 5 corner like some say, but to be fair neither is Brown. Both are good corners, but Brown is more well rounded then Newman.

Um, :roll: , I don't know wtf you are talking about. Here is what the deal is:

There once was a little boy named Baskalonis (or something like that) who developed a severe boy crush on a football player named Terence Newman. Balaskonis was a talkative boy, and would often go about proclaiming his love for Newman on every forum he visited. Along the way, Balaskonis pis$ed a lot of people of because of the stupid ridiculous statements he made, and the homeric way in which he proclaimed his love for Newman. The result of his spewing was that people actually ended up hating the person that he loved so much. The End.

Newman is by no means "overrated" on these boards. When the majority of people say that someone is overrated, then they can not- by definition- actually be overrated. The ultimate example of this is Michael Vick. His name comes up in every single "overrated" thread on this board. The only difference between him and Newman is that the national media still rides his jock. So, by THAT standard, he still kinda is overrated, but definately not by the fans.

Balaskonis is the only person that overrates Newman. The only one, and that is only because he thinks that he is basically as good as Deion in his prime. Because of that little twit, everyone on here actually hates Newman, if anything. Except Cowboy fans, that is.

The reason why we value him so highly is because we actually watch all the games. The media doesn't. They follow the highlight reels, they look at boxscores and they write about the obvious. The way Newman plays is not conducive to this sort of attention. He straps it up, shuts up, and shuts 'em down. Anyone who consistently watches the Cowboys thinks this same thing. Last year, we had two Pro Bowlers on defense. Yet, all the local media, all the fans and the coaching staff all concur that he was hands down our defensive MVP. Go figure that out.

cunningham06
07-23-2006, 07:41 PM
I'm not sure about who the best corner in the east is right now. What I can't get past is all the people saying Newman is so overrated. Please, one of you please explain to me what the job of a corner is, and then tell me where Newman was lacking last year. What was his deficiency? How can he be overrated when he didn't even make the pro bowl? What more can we ask of him? Just because he is dominating this poll doesn't make him overrated. Polls on here are worthless. What makes him underrated, is the fact that nobody (outside of dallas fans) mentions him among the elite corners, (when you watch a Cowboys game, what member of the secondary has everybody on his nuts?) when his play would indicate otherwise. I laugh when people mention Lito Sheppard as elite, while ignoring Newman. If Newman isn't best in the East, he's neck and neck with Sheldon Brown and Shawn Springs. Tough for me to say. I like all 3. Fact is, the most indispensible member of the Dallas secondary is Newman, not Roy Williams. Newman is more deserving of a trip to Hawaii, IMO.

I'm not saying he's bad, he is a very solid starter. He gets his job done very well, but I wouldn't say he is better than Brown. Brown breaks up more passes, and doesn't give up as many receptions. He is better in coverage, while he isn't as fast as Newman, he is better at blitzing and is excellent in run support. The weak link in the Eagles secondary last season at least was Lito Sheppard, he gave up a lot of big plays. Newman didn't give up many td's because it was much easier to just throw the ball over Roy Williams, or other less talented members of the secondary. IMO he is a good cornerback, but on this site he is overrated. Not by everyone, just a few select cowboy fans. He is not a shutdown corner, and not a top 5 corner like some say, but to be fair neither is Brown. Both are good corners, but Brown is more well rounded then Newman.

Um, :roll: , I don't know wtf you are talking about. Here is what the deal is:

There once was a little boy named Baskalonis (or something like that) who developed a severe boy crush on a football player named Terence Newman. Balaskonis was a talkative boy, and would often go about proclaiming his love for Newman on every forum he visited. Along the way, Balaskonis pis$ed a lot of people of because of the stupid ridiculous statements he made, and the homeric way in which he proclaimed his love for Newman. The result of his spewing was that people actually ended up hating the person that he loved so much. The End.

Newman is by no means "overrated" on these boards. When the majority of people say that someone is overrated, then they can not- by definition- actually be overrated. The ultimate example of this is Michael Vick. His name comes up in every single "overrated" thread on this board. The only difference between him and Newman is that the national media still rides his jock. So, by THAT standard, he still kinda is overrated, but definately not by the fans.

Balaskonis is the only person that overrates Newman. The only one, and that is only because he thinks that he is basically as good as Deion in his prime. Because of that little twit, everyone on here actually hates Newman, if anything. Except Cowboy fans, that is.

The reason why we value him so highly is because we actually watch all the games. The media doesn't. They follow the highlight reels, they look at boxscores and they write about the obvious. The way Newman plays is not conducive to this sort of attention. He straps it up, shuts up, and shuts 'em down. Anyone who consistently watches the Cowboys thinks this same thing. Last year, we had two Pro Bowlers on defense. Yet, all the local media, all the fans and the coaching staff all concur that he was hands down our defensive MVP. Go figure that out.

I watch plenty of cowboys games, as they most are televised since I live in Texas. I watch all of the teams in the NFC East very closely. I really hope that you aren't serious about saying he is a shutdown corner, because he isn't at all. On these forums I say he is overrated, just take a look at the polls. The best corners in the NFC East are
1. Sheldon Brown
2. Shawn Springs
3. Terence Newman
You can call me a homer for saying Sheldon is better, but plenty of non Eagles fans agree with me, but Shawn Springs is also better than Terence Newman. I don't like either team over the other, but Springs is a better cornerback than Terence Newman.

So how exactly is Newman better than either Springs or Brown? So far all I've heard is that he is because he is.

thetedginnshow
07-23-2006, 08:54 PM
Oh god Sheldon Brown isn't winning.

Giantsfan1080
07-23-2006, 09:06 PM
I went Sheldon Brown on this one. I would take either Eagles CB over Newman.

The Fat Kid
07-23-2006, 09:13 PM
iv been watchin shawn springs shut down TO for a long time. i'll take springs.

cunningham06
07-23-2006, 11:22 PM
iv been watchin shawn springs shut down TO for a long time. i'll take springs.

He really shut him down last season, since he didn't get to play either game against the skins. But he has in the past done an excellent job against TO, but I believe he also had some safety help.

DMWSackMachine
07-24-2006, 12:11 AM
Um, :roll: , I don't know wtf you are talking about. Here is what the deal is:

There once was a little boy named Baskalonis (or something like that) who developed a severe boy crush on a football player named Terence Newman. Balaskonis was a talkative boy, and would often go about proclaiming his love for Newman on every forum he visited. Along the way, Balaskonis pis$ed a lot of people of because of the stupid ridiculous statements he made, and the homeric way in which he proclaimed his love for Newman. The result of his spewing was that people actually ended up hating the person that he loved so much. The End.

Newman is by no means "overrated" on these boards. When the majority of people say that someone is overrated, then they can not- by definition- actually be overrated. The ultimate example of this is Michael Vick. His name comes up in every single "overrated" thread on this board. The only difference between him and Newman is that the national media still rides his jock. So, by THAT standard, he still kinda is overrated, but definately not by the fans.

Balaskonis is the only person that overrates Newman. The only one, and that is only because he thinks that he is basically as good as Deion in his prime. Because of that little twit, everyone on here actually hates Newman, if anything. Except Cowboy fans, that is.

The reason why we value him so highly is because we actually watch all the games. The media doesn't. They follow the highlight reels, they look at boxscores and they write about the obvious. The way Newman plays is not conducive to this sort of attention. He straps it up, shuts up, and shuts 'em down. Anyone who consistently watches the Cowboys thinks this same thing. Last year, we had two Pro Bowlers on defense. Yet, all the local media, all the fans and the coaching staff all concur that he was hands down our defensive MVP. Go figure that out.

I watch plenty of cowboys games, as they most are televised since I live in Texas. I watch all of the teams in the NFC East very closely. I really hope that you aren't serious about saying he is a shutdown corner, because he isn't at all. On these forums I say he is overrated, just take a look at the polls. The best corners in the NFC East are
1. Sheldon Brown
2. Shawn Springs
3. Terence Newman
You can call me a homer for saying Sheldon is better, but plenty of non Eagles fans agree with me, but Shawn Springs is also better than Terence Newman. I don't like either team over the other, but Springs is a better cornerback than Terence Newman.

So how exactly is Newman better than either Springs or Brown? So far all I've heard is that he is because he is.

And all you've said is that he's not because he's not. Lol. I mean, c'mon. I (as well as, I assume, a lot of people on these forums) am a regular subscriber to the Ticket and I watch a ton of games, ok? I watch all the NFC East closely because that is my division, and I watch the Skins a lot because I hate them with such a passion. So I have a very good idea of what I'm talking about.

Unfortunately, in this particular discussion, there aren't a lot of concrete, substantial facts that can be quoted. You can't use interceptions, tackles or (to a lesser extent) pass deflections to gauge a CBs value, because the no. 1 priority for a cornerback is to make sure that his man does not catch the ball. The best way to do that, is by covering so well that the QB refuses to throw your way. So, essentially, the ultimate cornerback would have a total of 0 balls thrown his way, and thus would have no ints, pass deflections, and very few tackles.

Therefore, you can't use hard stats as a measuring stick. All you can do is keep them in mind as a very shaky component of the overall evaluation. Cornerback, more than any other position on defense, imo, is most easily evaluated by simply observing. Most of the time, no new is good news. So if you aren't hearing about or seeing a CB in on a lot of plays then that usually means that he is doing a very good job. And when he IS tested, then he must demonstrate an ability to make a play.

If you simply must have a stat to back this up, I have two that are readily available. I'm sure you are familiar with KC Joyner, from ESPN. He is basically a professional statistician who watches games play by play and breaks them down into categories. From this information, he forms unique "metrics" that are designed to more accurately measure players at different positions according to more specific criteria than we are used to seeing. One of these is comp % against for CBs. He wrote about this last year, and gave stats from 2004. Here are a list of the top 10 corners in the league in comp% against for 2004:

1. Dre' Bly -- 36.5 percent
2. Mike McKenzie -- 40.8 percent
3. Eric Warfield -- 44.0 percent
4. Shawn Springs -- 44.6 percent
5. Deltha O'Neal -- 44.8 percent
6. Will Peterson -- 44.9 percent
7. Asante Samuel -- 46.2 percent
8. Terence Newman -- 46.6 percent
9. Al Harris -- 47.4 percent
10. Nate Clements -- 47.7 percent

So, according to this particular standard, it would seem that Newman is a top 10 CB, while Springs is just a smidge better than him. However, there is a modification that he makes to these rankings called "missed passes", or in other words, passes where the QB simply made a bad throw that the reciever had no way of catching. Here were the top 10 in missed passes (or the bottom 10, depending on how you look at it):

80. Sheldon Brown -- 41
79. Jerametrius Butler -- 31
78. Terrence McGee -- 31
77. Shawn Springs -- 27
76. Lito Sheppard -- 25
75. David Macklin -- 25
74. Deshea Townsend -- 24
73. Dre' Bly -- 21
72. Eric Warfield -- 20
71. Gary Baxter -- 20

So, while Springs was above Newman slightly in comp%, he was also the beneficiary of a lot of bad throws from the QB. Now, this brings the pass-rush into play, because bad passes are often the result of pressure on the QB, and we all know that there isn't a CB in the league that can cover for 5 seconds. So there is no way to measure a CB in a vacuum. A lot of it is subjective judgment. But here is a stat that suggests Newman as a top CB, and this was in a year that he was clearly struggling. Imagine how good he was last year.

duckseason
07-24-2006, 01:14 AM
I watch plenty of cowboys games, as they most are televised since I live in Texas. I watch all of the teams in the NFC East very closely. I really hope that you aren't serious about saying he is a shutdown corner, because he isn't at all. On these forums I say he is overrated, just take a look at the polls. The best corners in the NFC East are
1. Sheldon Brown
2. Shawn Springs
3. Terence Newman
You can call me a homer for saying Sheldon is better, but plenty of non Eagles fans agree with me, but Shawn Springs is also better than Terence Newman. I don't like either team over the other, but Springs is a better cornerback than Terence Newman.

So how exactly is Newman better than either Springs or Brown? So far all I've heard is that he is because he is.

And all you've said is that he's not because he's not. Lol. I mean, c'mon. I (as well as, I assume, a lot of people on these forums) am a regular subscriber to the Ticket and I watch a ton of games, ok? I watch all the NFC East closely because that is my division, and I watch the Skins a lot because I hate them with such a passion. So I have a very good idea of what I'm talking about.

Unfortunately, in this particular discussion, there aren't a lot of concrete, substantial facts that can be quoted. You can't use interceptions, tackles or (to a lesser extent) pass deflections to gauge a CBs value, because the no. 1 priority for a cornerback is to make sure that his man does not catch the ball. The best way to do that, is by covering so well that the QB refuses to throw your way. So, essentially, the ultimate cornerback would have a total of 0 balls thrown his way, and thus would have no ints, pass deflections, and very few tackles.

Therefore, you can't use hard stats as a measuring stick. All you can do is keep them in mind as a very shaky component of the overall evaluation. Cornerback, more than any other position on defense, imo, is most easily evaluated by simply observing. Most of the time, no new is good news. So if you aren't hearing about or seeing a CB in on a lot of plays then that usually means that he is doing a very good job. And when he IS tested, then he must demonstrate an ability to make a play.

If you simply must have a stat to back this up, I have two that are readily available. I'm sure you are familiar with KC Joyner, from ESPN. He is basically a professional statistician who watches games play by play and breaks them down into categories. From this information, he forms unique "metrics" that are designed to more accurately measure players at different positions according to more specific criteria than we are used to seeing. One of these is comp % against for CBs. He wrote about this last year, and gave stats from 2004. Here are a list of the top 10 corners in the league in comp% against for 2004:

1. Dre' Bly -- 36.5 percent
2. Mike McKenzie -- 40.8 percent
3. Eric Warfield -- 44.0 percent
4. Shawn Springs -- 44.6 percent
5. Deltha O'Neal -- 44.8 percent
6. Will Peterson -- 44.9 percent
7. Asante Samuel -- 46.2 percent
8. Terence Newman -- 46.6 percent
9. Al Harris -- 47.4 percent
10. Nate Clements -- 47.7 percent

So, according to this particular standard, it would seem that Newman is a top 10 CB, while Springs is just a smidge better than him. However, there is a modification that he makes to these rankings called "missed passes", or in other words, passes where the QB simply made a bad throw that the reciever had no way of catching. Here were the top 10 in missed passes (or the bottom 10, depending on how you look at it):

80. Sheldon Brown -- 41
79. Jerametrius Butler -- 31
78. Terrence McGee -- 31
77. Shawn Springs -- 27
76. Lito Sheppard -- 25
75. David Macklin -- 25
74. Deshea Townsend -- 24
73. Dre' Bly -- 21
72. Eric Warfield -- 20
71. Gary Baxter -- 20

So, while Springs was above Newman slightly in comp%, he was also the beneficiary of a lot of bad throws from the QB. Now, this brings the pass-rush into play, because bad passes are often the result of pressure on the QB, and we all know that there isn't a CB in the league that can cover for 5 seconds. So there is no way to measure a CB in a vacuum. A lot of it is subjective judgment. But here is a stat that suggests Newman as a top CB, and this was in a year that he was clearly struggling. Imagine how good he was last year.

Excellent post. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I wish more people around here (and in general) viewed the game through the same lenses that you have prescribed for yourself.
It really is ridiculous for people to form their entire opinions on players/teams solely off conventional statistics. Sadly, this way of thinking seems to encompass the vast majority of NFL fans. There are many statistics out there (such as those you referenced) that can be used to more accurately interpret the game than things such as INT's, and total yards.
Most people don't realize how much lies beneath the surface. It's just- "Shaun Alexander is the MVP! He broke the TD record, therefore he is the best RB in the game! He's the freakin' MVP!" Uh....no. The Seattle Seahawks had one of the best ground games in the league last year, and Alexander was a part of that. Same thing with Newman, but in reverse. "What?! Newman isn't even that good! He only had 3 INT's and 14 PD's! Are you crazy? He's average at best! So overrated!" In reality he is among the league's elite CB's. A true shutdown corner, and all you have to do to realize this fact, is WATCH THE DAMN GAME! (with a keen eye)... Again, great post.

Jughead10
07-24-2006, 09:06 AM
I find in general that for some reason, people on this board are in love with cornerbacks. Don't know why. Just give me someone who can catch a ball and make a tackle and I'm happy. Especially with the amount of zone and zone blitz packages these days. Shutdown corners are a thing of the past. Everyone else in the NFC East can be happy with their corners and I'll be happy with my pass rush. Sam Madison may not be the best corner in the East anymore, but at 28 years old (the same age of Newman) Sam was way more accomplished than Newman could even dream about. As long as he can catch the poor throws from Bledsoe and Brunell caused by our pass rush, I'll be more than happy.

cunningham06
07-24-2006, 06:19 PM
Um, :roll: , I don't know wtf you are talking about. Here is what the deal is:

There once was a little boy named Baskalonis (or something like that) who developed a severe boy crush on a football player named Terence Newman. Balaskonis was a talkative boy, and would often go about proclaiming his love for Newman on every forum he visited. Along the way, Balaskonis pis$ed a lot of people of because of the stupid ridiculous statements he made, and the homeric way in which he proclaimed his love for Newman. The result of his spewing was that people actually ended up hating the person that he loved so much. The End.

Newman is by no means "overrated" on these boards. When the majority of people say that someone is overrated, then they can not- by definition- actually be overrated. The ultimate example of this is Michael Vick. His name comes up in every single "overrated" thread on this board. The only difference between him and Newman is that the national media still rides his jock. So, by THAT standard, he still kinda is overrated, but definately not by the fans.

Balaskonis is the only person that overrates Newman. The only one, and that is only because he thinks that he is basically as good as Deion in his prime. Because of that little twit, everyone on here actually hates Newman, if anything. Except Cowboy fans, that is.

The reason why we value him so highly is because we actually watch all the games. The media doesn't. They follow the highlight reels, they look at boxscores and they write about the obvious. The way Newman plays is not conducive to this sort of attention. He straps it up, shuts up, and shuts 'em down. Anyone who consistently watches the Cowboys thinks this same thing. Last year, we had two Pro Bowlers on defense. Yet, all the local media, all the fans and the coaching staff all concur that he was hands down our defensive MVP. Go figure that out.

I watch plenty of cowboys games, as they most are televised since I live in Texas. I watch all of the teams in the NFC East very closely. I really hope that you aren't serious about saying he is a shutdown corner, because he isn't at all. On these forums I say he is overrated, just take a look at the polls. The best corners in the NFC East are
1. Sheldon Brown
2. Shawn Springs
3. Terence Newman
You can call me a homer for saying Sheldon is better, but plenty of non Eagles fans agree with me, but Shawn Springs is also better than Terence Newman. I don't like either team over the other, but Springs is a better cornerback than Terence Newman.

So how exactly is Newman better than either Springs or Brown? So far all I've heard is that he is because he is.

And all you've said is that he's not because he's not. Lol. I mean, c'mon. I (as well as, I assume, a lot of people on these forums) am a regular subscriber to the Ticket and I watch a ton of games, ok? I watch all the NFC East closely because that is my division, and I watch the Skins a lot because I hate them with such a passion. So I have a very good idea of what I'm talking about.

Unfortunately, in this particular discussion, there aren't a lot of concrete, substantial facts that can be quoted. You can't use interceptions, tackles or (to a lesser extent) pass deflections to gauge a CBs value, because the no. 1 priority for a cornerback is to make sure that his man does not catch the ball. The best way to do that, is by covering so well that the QB refuses to throw your way. So, essentially, the ultimate cornerback would have a total of 0 balls thrown his way, and thus would have no ints, pass deflections, and very few tackles.

Therefore, you can't use hard stats as a measuring stick. All you can do is keep them in mind as a very shaky component of the overall evaluation. Cornerback, more than any other position on defense, imo, is most easily evaluated by simply observing. Most of the time, no new is good news. So if you aren't hearing about or seeing a CB in on a lot of plays then that usually means that he is doing a very good job. And when he IS tested, then he must demonstrate an ability to make a play.

If you simply must have a stat to back this up, I have two that are readily available. I'm sure you are familiar with KC Joyner, from ESPN. He is basically a professional statistician who watches games play by play and breaks them down into categories. From this information, he forms unique "metrics" that are designed to more accurately measure players at different positions according to more specific criteria than we are used to seeing. One of these is comp % against for CBs. He wrote about this last year, and gave stats from 2004. Here are a list of the top 10 corners in the league in comp% against for 2004:

1. Dre' Bly -- 36.5 percent
2. Mike McKenzie -- 40.8 percent
3. Eric Warfield -- 44.0 percent
4. Shawn Springs -- 44.6 percent
5. Deltha O'Neal -- 44.8 percent
6. Will Peterson -- 44.9 percent
7. Asante Samuel -- 46.2 percent
8. Terence Newman -- 46.6 percent
9. Al Harris -- 47.4 percent
10. Nate Clements -- 47.7 percent

So, according to this particular standard, it would seem that Newman is a top 10 CB, while Springs is just a smidge better than him. However, there is a modification that he makes to these rankings called "missed passes", or in other words, passes where the QB simply made a bad throw that the reciever had no way of catching. Here were the top 10 in missed passes (or the bottom 10, depending on how you look at it):

80. Sheldon Brown -- 41
79. Jerametrius Butler -- 31
78. Terrence McGee -- 31
77. Shawn Springs -- 27
76. Lito Sheppard -- 25
75. David Macklin -- 25
74. Deshea Townsend -- 24
73. Dre' Bly -- 21
72. Eric Warfield -- 20
71. Gary Baxter -- 20

So, while Springs was above Newman slightly in comp%, he was also the beneficiary of a lot of bad throws from the QB. Now, this brings the pass-rush into play, because bad passes are often the result of pressure on the QB, and we all know that there isn't a CB in the league that can cover for 5 seconds. So there is no way to measure a CB in a vacuum. A lot of it is subjective judgment. But here is a stat that suggests Newman as a top CB, and this was in a year that he was clearly struggling. Imagine how good he was last year.

The beneficiary from bad throws by a quarterback is a very weak argument as to why he is better than Springs. I found your last paragraph interesting, since it is widely acknowledged that the Eagles pass rush was almost non-existant last season, but Sheldon still played very well. I don't know why you used stats from 2004, since Sheldon is still young and is developing. Last season was his breakout season. Brown is just reaching his peak, while Newman's about to pass his prime. The Cowboys secondary, while good enough to get the job done is far from spectacular. Newman is the best coverage guy in the group. Anthony Henry is solid, and Williams is pretty bad in coverage. When you have a link as weak as Keith Davis in your secondary, you know where to throw to. It makes no sense to continually throw against the best DB on a team when you have so many easier options. The Eagles secondary however, is considered the best in football by many. Plenty of teams fear throwing on our safeties, so our cornerbacks have huge responsibilities. Sheldon has a lot more passes thrown at him than Newman does, so I'm not surprised that his % is lower than his. You can't judge how good his play was by that stat. Newman is not shutdown, so stop arguing that he is. Like I have already said, having a player as weak as Keith Davis in your secondary is the easy completion, so that is where it makes the most sense to put the ball. I'm sure I've watched just as many Cowboys and Redskins games as you have, but how many Eagles games have you watched? Sheldon was fantastic last season, and if you had watched many Eagles games, we would not be discussing this right now. Sheldon is a more effective blitzer, and is stout against the run as well. Newman hasn't had to deal with a lack of pass rush like the Eagles had last year, so even considering him better is ridiculous.

Go_Eagles77
07-24-2006, 07:57 PM
Sheldon Brown should be winning this poll, and he's not even beating Lito Sheppard. :shock:

CGF 216/137
07-24-2006, 10:07 PM
cowboys are my least hated NFC East rival but Sheldon Brown is still the top CB IMO.

07-24-2006, 10:19 PM
Rogers, webster and madison have no bussiness on this poll.

draftguru151
07-24-2006, 10:22 PM
Rogers, webster and madison have no bussiness on this poll.

He listed every corner in the division. :?

CGF 216/137
07-24-2006, 10:24 PM
Madison is better than henry and i feel he's more consistent than lito, so yes he does deserve to be in the poll.

07-24-2006, 10:25 PM
Rogers, webster and madison have no bussiness on this poll.

He listed every corner in the division. :?

What about aaron glenn, hes in the divison :?

draftguru151
07-24-2006, 10:34 PM
Rogers, webster and madison have no bussiness on this poll.

He listed every corner in the division. :?

What about aaron glenn, hes in the divison :?

Starters. :?

cunningham06
07-24-2006, 11:53 PM
I think that everyone who voted for Lito's votes should be transferred to Sheldons since if they thought he was the best, and Sheldon is plainly better. 25 is a respectable number of votes and I'm ok with that.

Staubach12
07-25-2006, 12:09 AM
I'm not sure about who the best corner in the east is right now. What I can't get past is all the people saying Newman is so overrated. Please, one of you please explain to me what the job of a corner is, and then tell me where Newman was lacking last year. What was his deficiency? How can he be overrated when he didn't even make the pro bowl? What more can we ask of him? Just because he is dominating this poll doesn't make him overrated. Polls on here are worthless. What makes him underrated, is the fact that nobody (outside of dallas fans) mentions him among the elite corners, (when you watch a Cowboys game, what member of the secondary has everybody on his nuts?) when his play would indicate otherwise. I laugh when people mention Lito Sheppard as elite, while ignoring Newman. If Newman isn't best in the East, he's neck and neck with Sheldon Brown and Shawn Springs. Tough for me to say. I like all 3. Fact is, the most indispensible member of the Dallas secondary is Newman, not Roy Williams. Newman is more deserving of a trip to Hawaii, IMO.

I'm not saying he's bad, he is a very solid starter. He gets his job done very well, but I wouldn't say he is better than Brown. Brown breaks up more passes, and doesn't give up as many receptions. He is better in coverage, while he isn't as fast as Newman, he is better at blitzing and is excellent in run support. The weak link in the Eagles secondary last season at least was Lito Sheppard, he gave up a lot of big plays. Newman didn't give up many td's because it was much easier to just throw the ball over Roy Williams, or other less talented members of the secondary. IMO he is a good cornerback, but on this site he is overrated. Not by everyone, just a few select cowboy fans. He is not a shutdown corner, and not a top 5 corner like some say, but to be fair neither is Brown. Both are good corners, but Brown is more well rounded then Newman.

Um, :roll: , I don't know wtf you are talking about. Here is what the deal is:

There once was a little boy named Baskalonis (or something like that) who developed a severe boy crush on a football player named Terence Newman. Balaskonis was a talkative boy, and would often go about proclaiming his love for Newman on every forum he visited. Along the way, Balaskonis pis$ed a lot of people of because of the stupid ridiculous statements he made, and the homeric way in which he proclaimed his love for Newman. The result of his spewing was that people actually ended up hating the person that he loved so much. The End.

Newman is by no means "overrated" on these boards. When the majority of people say that someone is overrated, then they can not- by definition- actually be overrated. The ultimate example of this is Michael Vick. His name comes up in every single "overrated" thread on this board. The only difference between him and Newman is that the national media still rides his jock. So, by THAT standard, he still kinda is overrated, but definately not by the fans.

Balaskonis is the only person that overrates Newman. The only one, and that is only because he thinks that he is basically as good as Deion in his prime. Because of that little twit, everyone on here actually hates Newman, if anything. Except Cowboy fans, that is.

The reason why we value him so highly is because we actually watch all the games. The media doesn't. They follow the highlight reels, they look at boxscores and they write about the obvious. The way Newman plays is not conducive to this sort of attention. He straps it up, shuts up, and shuts 'em down. Anyone who consistently watches the Cowboys thinks this same thing. Last year, we had two Pro Bowlers on defense. Yet, all the local media, all the fans and the coaching staff all concur that he was hands down our defensive MVP. Go figure that out.

Great post, and I agree.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
07-25-2006, 12:32 AM
"overrated" is the most over used word in the world. all people ever talk about is how a guy is overrated, yet have no clue what thye are talking about and will say it about any player that people consider to be good.

Lito Sheppard shouldn't have as many votes as he does. Sheldon Brown, although less hyped and does make as many Ints is easily the better player. people should watch the games before they comment.

I didn't see enough of Newman to say he's the best, but everything i've heard says that he probably is. my preferance is Shawn Springs. when he hasn't been hurt, the guy has done real good things. he has played very well in Washington the last 2 years, and is a big part of a top defense. he plays the run, can blitz and can cover. Newman would be my #2 because i didn't see enough Dallas games

draftguru151
07-25-2006, 01:14 AM
Lito Sheppard is overrated. :lol: j/p

Jonathan_VIlma
07-25-2006, 01:29 AM
It's Shawn Springs. He should've got the contract Smoot got, because Smoot benefitted a lot from Springs.

I like both of Philly's cornerbacks too, even though they got torched this year. They had the best secondary in the NFL for two-three years prior to 06.

moc182
07-25-2006, 01:33 AM
Anthony Henry is one of the most underrated players in the league. I'd take him, Brown, Springs, in that order.

littlewebs
07-25-2006, 01:46 AM
http://theboysblog.com/2006/07/24/an-interview-with-kc-joyner-part-iii/

9. The ‘Boys Blog — Terence Newman played better in ‘05 than in ‘04. There are some fans who think he’s ready for stardom and others who think he’s money already. Can he — is he — playing at a top level already? We ask in part because he’s getting a split decision from the national media. Sports Illustrated’s Paul Zimmerman names Newman as one of his All Pros last year but other scribes remember his whiff against Chris Cooley in the second Redskins game and beat his ratings up over that.

K.C. Joyner — I have to agree with Dr. Z on this one. A part of my take on Newman from SF 2006: “Newman placed in the top 12 in all of the major cornerback metric categories in the medium and deep pass levels and his short pass metrics were also good. He was possibly the most consistent cornerback in the NFL last year.”

cunningham06
07-25-2006, 02:59 AM
It's Shawn Springs. He should've got the contract Smoot got, because Smoot benefitted a lot from Springs.

I like both of Philly's cornerbacks too, even though they got torched this year. They had the best secondary in the NFL for two-three years prior to 06.

Not entirely there fault. The secondary didn't just suddenly get bad. Sheldon was awesome, Dawkins was excellent, Michael Lewis was helpful against the run and solid in coverage, while Lito stunk it up. We had absolutely no pass rush, and as was stated earlier in this topic, no corner can cover for 5 seconds. We got no pressure on the qb and all they had to do was wait.

President
07-25-2006, 06:40 AM
I might of chose Lito, but as others have siad, he got burned this year, so i'd have to say Madison.

CGF 216/137
07-25-2006, 07:36 AM
I might of chose Lito, but as others have siad, he got burned this year, so i'd have to say Madison.

Love the optimism but unless he has a big year this year I don't think he's in the conversation yet.

draftguru151
07-25-2006, 09:27 AM
I might of chose Lito, but as others have siad, he got burned this year, so i'd have to say Madison.

Maybe two years ago. :?

Dillen
07-25-2006, 10:41 AM
I like both of Philly's cornerbacks too, even though they got torched this year. They had the best secondary in the NFL for two-three years prior to 06.
Sheldon didnt get torched last year, Lito did. People only remember the play with Sheldon on Plax and think he was toast all year long. Sheldon was one of the most consistent players on defense last year.

DMWSackMachine
07-25-2006, 01:19 PM
The beneficiary from bad throws by a quarterback is a very weak argument as to why he is better than Springs. I found your last paragraph interesting, since it is widely acknowledged that the Eagles pass rush was almost non-existant last season, but Sheldon still played very well. I don't know why you used stats from 2004, since Sheldon is still young and is developing. Last season was his breakout season. Brown is just reaching his peak, while Newman's about to pass his prime. The Cowboys secondary, while good enough to get the job done is far from spectacular. Newman is the best coverage guy in the group. Anthony Henry is solid, and Williams is pretty bad in coverage. When you have a link as weak as Keith Davis in your secondary, you know where to throw to. It makes no sense to continually throw against the best DB on a team when you have so many easier options. The Eagles secondary however, is considered the best in football by many. Plenty of teams fear throwing on our safeties, so our cornerbacks have huge responsibilities. Sheldon has a lot more passes thrown at him than Newman does, so I'm not surprised that his % is lower than his. You can't judge how good his play was by that stat. Newman is not shutdown, so stop arguing that he is. Like I have already said, having a player as weak as Keith Davis in your secondary is the easy completion, so that is where it makes the most sense to put the ball. I'm sure I've watched just as many Cowboys and Redskins games as you have, but how many Eagles games have you watched? Sheldon was fantastic last season, and if you had watched many Eagles games, we would not be discussing this right now. Sheldon is a more effective blitzer, and is stout against the run as well. Newman hasn't had to deal with a lack of pass rush like the Eagles had last year, so even considering him better is ridiculous.

Not to incite you to anger or anything, but your response was pretty laughable. You go on and on about "give me some proof, give me some proof" blah blah blah, then I do and you completely ignore it.

And to clarify, I wasn't making the point that Newman was better because of the missed pass stat, but rather that it was a factor in Springs' higher ranking. It must be mentioned. As to why I used stats from 04, instead of 05, its very simple: access. He posts certain topics on ESPN's website, but the bulk of his numbers can't be found anywhere but in his book. So I used that, just because you insisted upon stats (like a simpleton) so I provided some for you.

Another stat (and it will be fun watching all the attempts to discredit this one) is this : 0 TDs allowed. Show me another starting CB that played 10 or more games without allowing a TD. I challenge you to do it.

But of course, these arguments are all just fluff in the wind compared to your "He's overrated because I say so" argument.

Again, if you want to point to other crap like "Oh, he has a weak player in the secondary, so nobody throws to him yadda yadda", then answer me this: Champ Bailey (who everyone seems to think is a covering God) was the lone solid player in the entire secondary for the Broncos in 04. Literally the only guy that you could consider even average in that group. So, by your reasoning, there was no reason to throw at him when you could throw at the other guys and as such he should have had an inflated comp% against number, right? I think I got that right. So......why did he come in at 67th then? Right.

Now, listen, I have a very high opinion of Sheldon Brown. He is a fine player. I like him. Lito isn't nearly as good as he's made out to be by the media and some Philly fans, but he's good as well. Your safeties are rock solid as well, so don't think that I'm disrespecting Philly's secondary. They have the best one in the East, and probably top 5 in the league. However, my very point about corners has been proven by this thread. Shelden Brown, whom 99% of Eagles fans will tell you is better than Lito Sheppard, is being beaten out by his teammate. Why? Perception. Just like I pointed out to you. In the mainstream people's minds its all about Ints or big plays. Never about consistent play, which is exactly why polls of this nature a junk ass. The only reason Newman is winning is because of the higher number of Boys fans on this site. It's merely a coincedence that it happens to reflect the truth.

I'm sure I've watched just as many Cowboys and Redskins games as you have, but how many Eagles games have you watched?

I find this highly amusing. You have watched just as many Cowboys games as me? Lmao. In order for that to be true, you would have to have seen every single play of every single game from the last two seasons, plus have them saved on your Tivo unit for repeat viewings. Don't go making statements you can't back up. As for the Eagles games, I watch all of them. Every single one last year, along with the Giants and the Skins. I'm a junkie. Now, I didn't see every play, but I watched the competitive parts of every game from each team in my division.

DMWSackMachine
07-25-2006, 01:48 PM
More Joyner on Newman in 04:

12. Terrence Newman regressed last year. Can you give a brief rundown of his game?

Joyner: Again, I’ll give your readers a freebie.

Terence Newman

His stats for 2004 were excellent. His completion percentage was 8th best, his yards per attempt were tied for 8th best, and he had the 14th best tight/good coverage percentage.

He had terrific short passing stats, with the 7th lowest completion percentage and 17th highest tight/good coverage percentage. His medium stats weren’t as good as the short, but they were good. He ranked tied for 15th lowest completion percentage and tied for 26th in tight/good coverage percentage at the medium level. His deep stats were very solid as well.

If you didn’t know any better, you’d think Newman had a pretty good season. What he actually had were some really good games paired up with some terrible, awful games. Take a look:

Terence Newman’s worst games
Wk. Opp. Att. C. Yds. TD
1 Minn. 6, 5, 74, 2
3 Wash. 14, 9, 75, 1
6 Pitt. 12, 9, 104, 1
7 G.B. 5, 3, 92, 1
13 Sea. 14, 12, 147, 1
Totals 51, 38, 492, 6

Terence Newman’s best games:
Wk. Opp. Att. C. Yds. TD
2 Cle. 10, 1, 12, 0
9 Cinn. 5, 1, 2, 0
12 Chi. 4, 0, 0, 0
15 Phi. 5, 2, 13, 0
17 NYG 6, 2, 23, 0
Totals 30, 6, 50, 0

Newman was perfectly capable of losing a game all by himself, and perfectly capable of shutting an opponent down. His shutdown games came against teams with weaker receivers, but he could still shut those receivers down.

Newman had many games where he was targeted and beaten. Parcells at one point said that Newman was losing his confidence, and the Seattle game was the nadir of that time. After the Seattle game Newman started playing the receivers much tighter than he had been up to that point. It’s almost like Parcells told him, “Look, you play best when you play tight. When you play soft you get beat. Go back to playing tight and stop worrying about if you’re going to have help over the top. If you get beat deep because of that, you’ll never hear me say a word.” Newman’s confidence returned and he started playing like a top-level cover corner and had two of his best games in weeks 15 & 17.

They always say that the best CBs are the ones who have bad memories and don’t remember being beaten. Newman had his first struggles last year but he seemed to forget them after a time. I was worried about his future, but I’m not anymore. This guy is good as long as he plays tight and doesn’t worry.

Also, I don't know who this guy is, or what is up with him, but when I did a search on the web it pulled this site up:

http://board.deathvalleydriver.com/lofiversion/index.php/t8000.html


The 4th Annual Yakuza Rich NFL All-Pro Team

Anyway, I wouldn't call him a credibility giant, but he does name Newman to his All-Pro team. Here is the clip:


CORNERBACK

For all of the outcry by the media against Terrell Owens, they sure got sucked in by a blatant self promoter in Atlanta’s DeAngelo Hall. Don’t get me wrong, Hall seems to have a pretty good career ahead of him and played alright this season. But when I think of him I can’t help but think of another self promoting former Falcon CB.

No, not Deion Sanders. He was the best CB I ever saw.

I’m talking about Tim McKier, a pretty good CB at one time who mistakenly thought he was so great he once announced to the world that he was the Michael Jordan of football.

For all of the talk about the re-enforcement of the pass interference and illegal chuck rules, there wound up being some fantastic CB play this season. The household names like Champ Bailey and Ty Law were pretty good this year, but not All-Pro worthy. Bailey still makes too many bad gambles and is a suspect tackler. Law struggled sometimes with deep stuff and also wasn’t the tackler he usually is.

I gave a hard look at Rashean Mathis, but saw him get killed by Marvin Harrison and I saw him struggle with other speedsters. Even still, he had a great season.

After Dallas vs. Carolina game, Terence Newman was a shoe-in. He never gave up a single TD this year. His longest completion allowed was 23 yards. Teams simply didn’t throw his way and when they did it was either incomplete or for minimal gain. No WR did anything against him and that includes Santana Moss, Terrell Owens, Plaxico Burress, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, Torry Holt, Rod Smith, Randy Moss (who he actually caught from behind in their game), Roy Williams, and yes…Steve Smith.

Sure, one could say that opposing QB’s were going after Newman’s other CB’s which was true. But they still lacked success there as Anthony Henry, Aaron Glenn, and Jacques Reeves all had fine years in coverage.

Jughead10
07-25-2006, 02:07 PM
Forget all these stupid metric stats for CBs. They are MEANINGLESS. They are made so nerdy baseball stats guys can understand football by turning it into math. Football isn't played in a vacuum nearly as much as baseball. I'll give you a number. Turnovers. It is what wins football games. When you win the turnover battle, you win a game. This is a team stat, not an idividual stat. Secondaries should be looked at as a group not as individual cornerbacks. Even then you aren't doing justice, because what goes on up front means so much than the coverage behind it.

duckseason
07-25-2006, 04:59 PM
Forget all these stupid metric stats for CBs. They are MEANINGLESS. They are made so nerdy baseball stats guys can understand football by turning it into math. Football isn't played in a vacuum nearly as much as baseball. I'll give you a number. Turnovers. It is what wins football games. When you win the turnover battle, you win a game. This is a team stat, not an idividual stat. Secondaries should be looked at as a group not as individual cornerbacks. Even then you aren't doing justice, because what goes on up front means so much than the coverage behind it.

I agree with your point that this is a team game, and that a weakness in one part of the defense can result in another unit struggling. I also agree that stats generally don't tell the whole story. However, these metric stats provided by KC Joyner via DMW are absolutely cogent.
Do you honestly believe that they are worthless? This guy sat and analyzed every play, and recorded what occured. How can you say that completion percentage against is meaningless? Of course it doesn't tell the whole story. Some corners benefit from factors outside their control. Such as the style of defense they play in, or the strength of pass rush their team maintains. However, if you must demonstrate evidence as to who the better corners are.....these would be the ideal statistics to ponder. These metrics really are valid, and people are free to interpret them however they choose. To say they're meaningless is a fallacy. I would say these statistics are much more precise in showing who the better corners are, than turnovers are in determining who will win the game. That whole "win the turnover battle/win the game" thing doesn't happen all the time.
Fact is, most fans adopt their view of who the best corners are by listening to what the national media and guys like John Madden have to say about them. Champ Bailey is widely regarded as the preeminent CB in the game. Why, you ask? Because that's what was stuffed down our throats as we watched the Broncos play on TV. It's what was written in SI, and TSN. I prefer to come to my own conclusions. By watching (not listening to) the games, and referring to stats such as those provided by Mr. Joyner, I am able to formulate a pretty accurate overall opinion. Much more accurate than some Madden ratings. To read what DMW had to say, and allow those words/stats to just fly out your left ear, is really quite ignorant.

DMWSackMachine
07-25-2006, 05:17 PM
Excellent points. The thing with stats, is that they can be useful if taken in the proper perspective, but if allowed to dominate ones thinking, they become a tyrant of the mind. They simply should be used as one peice to a large puzzle in evaluating a player, team or whatever. For example, even though a lot of these stats say that Champ Bailey is a below average corner, I still consider him to be very good. Anyone who has watched him play knows that he is a fine player. The stats say otherwise, and in contrast the media makes him out to be much better than he is. As is so often the case, the truth lies somewhere in between.

But to say that you can completely ignore statistics is to say that you are to be completely ignored.

RW31
07-25-2006, 07:16 PM
Terrence Newman is the best player from that list, though i can picture Carlos Rogers, being somthing great later on

LSUALUM99
07-25-2006, 07:38 PM
This is why football is both the best and the worst of the major sports to talk about amongst fans.

It's the best because there is such interdependence among the different facets of the game that it's nearly impossible to prove your point on any 'who is best' discussion. This lends iteslf to great debates and postulating by fans.

It's the worst because of that same interdependence.


Since I am a Cowboys fan I'll use Cowboy examples. Is Emmit Smith the greatest runner of all time or the beneficiary of a great offensive line? Was the line really that good or did an incredible runner with great instincts and vision make the line look better? I Aikman in the Hall of Fame because he had Emitt Smith keeping 8 in the box and Irvin on the outside? Did the defense that was so good in the 90's give Emmit and Aikman just more opportunities to work with a short field?

Was Barry Sanders a better running back than Emmitt? What about the fact that Barry Sanders has the most negative rushing yards of any running back of all time? Was this because of his OL or was his OL looking so bad because he improvised so much?


Or for another line of reasoning. We all know that having a strong pass rush improves your pass defense by increasing turnovers and decreasing the ability of receivers to get open. We also know that having good corners increases the amount of time that it takes for WR's to get open so that increases the effectiveness of a good pass rush as well.

Stats are misleading. What's better a pass for 15 yards on 3rd and 17 OR a pass for 2 yards on 3rd and 1? In the stat column one is better but on the playing field the other is more effective.

Should you count interceptions at the end of the year for QB's and then compare who is better? What about the INTS that were dropped by the DB's so just became bad incompletions. These were worse passes than those tipped by the WR that happen to bounce into the DB's hands. One is not the QB's fault the other is. But yet they don't count the same in the statistical category.

And finally, what was the responsibility of the CB? If the coach wants the CB to gamble for the pick because they are behind should you judge his play the same as the coach that wants the CB to play off because they are protecting the lead? You see, things like that don't show up in the stat colum but are directly related to the CB's abilities.

Fogartynyy2789
07-25-2006, 07:44 PM
There is a simple solution to this question- there is no clear cut favorite.

I don't believe there is truly an elite corner in the NFC East. It's a bunch of very good corners who benefit from great pass rushes.

turninandburnin1
07-25-2006, 10:29 PM
k most of those guys on that list are uprising stars who are gonna be a force in the future and some of them are already a force. I would take Sam Madison anyday just becuz of his veteran leadership but for overall talent/future skill ill be goin for Terrance Newman.

07-25-2006, 10:34 PM
There is a simple solution to this question- there is no clear cut favorite.

I don't believe there is truly an elite corner in the NFC East. It's a bunch of very good corners who benefit from great pass rushes.


The redskins have a horrible pass rush

MossRandleElLloyd
07-25-2006, 10:40 PM
There is a simple solution to this question- there is no clear cut favorite.

I don't believe there is truly an elite corner in the NFC East. It's a bunch of very good corners who benefit from great pass rushes.


The redskins have a horrible pass rush

What are you talking about? id say its mediocre...and toward the end of the season when we got C Griff back Daniels was ripping throught the line.

07-25-2006, 10:45 PM
There is a simple solution to this question- there is no clear cut favorite.

I don't believe there is truly an elite corner in the NFC East. It's a bunch of very good corners who benefit from great pass rushes.


The redskins have a horrible pass rush

What are you talking about? id say its mediocre...and toward the end of the season when we got C Griff back Daniels was ripping throught the line.

He got 4 sacks against one guy....but you are right i wont say horrible but it was far from good. Im am curious to know if we kept demetric evans he was a monster when he got to play.

raiderfan_89
07-25-2006, 10:53 PM
they all suck.

Jughead10
07-25-2006, 11:52 PM
This is why football is both the best and the worst of the major sports to talk about amongst fans.

It's the best because there is such interdependence among the different facets of the game that it's nearly impossible to prove your point on any 'who is best' discussion. This lends iteslf to great debates and postulating by fans.

It's the worst because of that same interdependence.


Since I am a Cowboys fan I'll use Cowboy examples. Is Emmit Smith the greatest runner of all time or the beneficiary of a great offensive line? Was the line really that good or did an incredible runner with great instincts and vision make the line look better? I Aikman in the Hall of Fame because he had Emitt Smith keeping 8 in the box and Irvin on the outside? Did the defense that was so good in the 90's give Emmit and Aikman just more opportunities to work with a short field?

Was Barry Sanders a better running back than Emmitt? What about the fact that Barry Sanders has the most negative rushing yards of any running back of all time? Was this because of his OL or was his OL looking so bad because he improvised so much?


Or for another line of reasoning. We all know that having a strong pass rush improves your pass defense by increasing turnovers and decreasing the ability of receivers to get open. We also know that having good corners increases the amount of time that it takes for WR's to get open so that increases the effectiveness of a good pass rush as well.

Stats are misleading. What's better a pass for 15 yards on 3rd and 17 OR a pass for 2 yards on 3rd and 1? In the stat column one is better but on the playing field the other is more effective.

Should you count interceptions at the end of the year for QB's and then compare who is better? What about the INTS that were dropped by the DB's so just became bad incompletions. These were worse passes than those tipped by the WR that happen to bounce into the DB's hands. One is not the QB's fault the other is. But yet they don't count the same in the statistical category.

And finally, what was the responsibility of the CB? If the coach wants the CB to gamble for the pick because they are behind should you judge his play the same as the coach that wants the CB to play off because they are protecting the lead? You see, things like that don't show up in the stat colum but are directly related to the CB's abilities.

Honestly, one of the best posts ever read on this site. It is still my opinion that most of those metric stats are meaningless. I honestly don't think one GM in this league would look at those stats and judge anybody buy them. Especially when it came to say choosing between two players in free agency.

07-25-2006, 11:52 PM
they all suck.

thank you so much for that post. :roll:

draftguru151
07-26-2006, 12:01 AM
This is why football is both the best and the worst of the major sports to talk about amongst fans.

It's the best because there is such interdependence among the different facets of the game that it's nearly impossible to prove your point on any 'who is best' discussion. This lends iteslf to great debates and postulating by fans.

It's the worst because of that same interdependence.


Since I am a Cowboys fan I'll use Cowboy examples. Is Emmit Smith the greatest runner of all time or the beneficiary of a great offensive line? Was the line really that good or did an incredible runner with great instincts and vision make the line look better? I Aikman in the Hall of Fame because he had Emitt Smith keeping 8 in the box and Irvin on the outside? Did the defense that was so good in the 90's give Emmit and Aikman just more opportunities to work with a short field?

Was Barry Sanders a better running back than Emmitt? What about the fact that Barry Sanders has the most negative rushing yards of any running back of all time? Was this because of his OL or was his OL looking so bad because he improvised so much?


Or for another line of reasoning. We all know that having a strong pass rush improves your pass defense by increasing turnovers and decreasing the ability of receivers to get open. We also know that having good corners increases the amount of time that it takes for WR's to get open so that increases the effectiveness of a good pass rush as well.

Stats are misleading. What's better a pass for 15 yards on 3rd and 17 OR a pass for 2 yards on 3rd and 1? In the stat column one is better but on the playing field the other is more effective.

Should you count interceptions at the end of the year for QB's and then compare who is better? What about the INTS that were dropped by the DB's so just became bad incompletions. These were worse passes than those tipped by the WR that happen to bounce into the DB's hands. One is not the QB's fault the other is. But yet they don't count the same in the statistical category.

And finally, what was the responsibility of the CB? If the coach wants the CB to gamble for the pick because they are behind should you judge his play the same as the coach that wants the CB to play off because they are protecting the lead? You see, things like that don't show up in the stat colum but are directly related to the CB's abilities.

Honestly, one of the best posts ever read on this site. It is still my opinion that most of those metric stats are meaningless. I honestly don't think one GM in this league would look at those stats and judge anybody buy them. Especially when it came to say choosing between two players in free agency.

I'm waiting for toonster to substantiate this rumour.

DMWSackMachine
07-26-2006, 10:35 AM
LSU touched upon a great point. Almost every debate in which the two sides are closely contested it breaks down into a matter of preference. When you think about it, its damn funny because there is no more volatile situation then to have a bunch of die hard fans on a board talking about a subject that is a matter of preference, and yet fighting for their preference to the death. It makes for some outstanding unintentional comedy.

However, I would not say that it means that nothing can be proven. It just means that its harder to do, and it ends up simply emphasizing the bottom line: winning. And I think we can all agree that arguing who is better between teams is much easier and effective than doing so with individual players.

Still, in this example I think it's fairly obvious that Newman is the best player on this list. He hasn't gotten much attention nation wide because he hasn't had that "signature moment" where he made a huge pick in crunch time, or an amazing return or anything like that. But he has played at a very high level, and I have more confidence in his abilities as a player than any other guy on our defense. More than Roy Williams, more than DeMarcus, more than Ellis or anyone else. He is quite simply just that good. He hasn't gotten credit for it yet, but I think this year will change all that.

bigbluedefense
07-26-2006, 10:52 AM
I have pretty much stayed out of this conversation, but Im pleased with the way it turned out, most provided intelligent and logical insight to their arguments, and it was well presented. Here's my take.

Its very very difficult to state who's the best CB for several reasons. Its so dependent on other factors, that its very hard to make an honest assumption unless you study every play during the year for every team. Pass rush, how many times teams throw on you, how many times teams run on you, style of defense, how long youre on the field, level of competition, type of stadium (dome vs windy NE), how often your team blitzes, I can go on and on. Having that said, you can make some sort of assumption as to who is the best, but it will never be set in stone. Theres too many variables in place that can effect DB play to make a concrete analysis of who's the best.

Also remember the whole "stats" thing can be misleading. Newman "gave up no TDs", but he gave up a couple of near TDs. One play against Washington, he got burned by Moss (@ Wash) and Moss was considered down on like the 1 inch line. According to stats, Newman didn't give up a TD...but we all know that TD scored was on Newman...so raw stats can be misleading. It can be informative, but it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Now, who's the best? Its very close. You have compelling arguments for Newman, Springs, and Sheldon Brown imo. Brown plays with great safeties and a solid #2 corner. Springs plays with a ballhawk FS who can get his back and a developing stud corner in Rogers, Newman has 2 solid cover corners playing with him but does not have great safeties to help up top. Weighing the variables, I'm gonna have to say Newman in a close one over Springs, with Brown in 3rd. I believe that ultimately a CB is asked to not give up the big play. At the end of the day, thats the most important responsibility of a CB. And Newman did it the best, and he did it without great coverage safeties to bail him out. Its real real close, and I can't say for sure because of the variables that can effect DB play, but if you put a gun to my head and asked me who's the best, I go with Newman. Springs and Madison would be the best 2 years ago, but right here right now I have to give it to Newman.

Dillen
07-26-2006, 10:55 AM
bigblue, I cant disagree that Mlew and Dawkins are great safeties, and Lito is a solid #2 corner, but both Lito and Lewis were horrible last year. Just like to point that out.

Agree completely, there is alot of information that needs to be processed before you can make a decision.

bigbluedefense
07-26-2006, 11:01 AM
bigblue, I cant disagree that Mlew and Dawkins are great safeties, and Lito is a solid #2 corner, but both Lito and Lewis were horrible last year. Just like to point that out.

Agree completely, there is alot of information that needs to be processed before you can make a decision.

I agree, which is why I had a hard time determining who is the best. Its really an unfair argument, because theres just too many variables in effect. You can make a strong case for all 3 of the guys I stated. No one is right and no one is wrong in this argument...the only way to settle this is by analyzing how they do this year. Even then, if Brown still doesn't get a good pass rush, how can we judge him you know? So I don't know...if I had to pick a guy I go with Newman, but I wouldn't get angry with anyone who disagreed with me.

Modano
07-26-2006, 11:09 AM
I have pretty much stayed out of this conversation, but Im pleased with the way it turned out, most provided intelligent and logical insight to their arguments, and it was well presented. Here's my take.

Its very very difficult to state who's the best CB for several reasons. Its so dependent on other factors, that its very hard to make an honest assumption unless you study every play during the year for every team. Pass rush, how many times teams throw on you, how many times teams run on you, style of defense, how long youre on the field, level of competition, type of stadium (dome vs windy NE), how often your team blitzes, I can go on and on. Having that said, you can make some sort of assumption as to who is the best, but it will never be set in stone. Theres too many variables in place that can effect DB play to make a concrete analysis of who's the best.

Also remember the whole "stats" thing can be misleading. Newman "gave up no TDs", but he gave up a couple of near TDs. One play against Washington, he got burned by Moss (@ Wash) and Moss was considered down on like the 1 inch line. According to stats, Newman didn't give up a TD...but we all know that TD scored was on Newman...so raw stats can be misleading. It can be informative, but it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Now, who's the best? Its very close. You have compelling arguments for Newman, Springs, and Sheldon Brown imo. Brown plays with great safeties and a solid #2 corner. Springs plays with a ballhawk FS who can get his back and a developing stud corner in Rogers, Newman has 2 solid cover corners playing with him but does not have great safeties to help up top. Weighing the variables, I'm gonna have to say Newman in a close one over Springs, with Brown in 3rd. I believe that ultimately a CB is asked to not give up the big play. At the end of the day, thats the most important responsibility of a CB. And Newman did it the best, and he did it without great coverage safeties to bail him out. Its real real close, and I can't say for sure because of the variables that can effect DB play, but if you put a gun to my head and asked me who's the best, I go with Newman. Springs and Madison would be the best 2 years ago, but right here right now I have to give it to Newman.

Good post but Newman wasn't covering Moss. Glenn got burned by moss, Newman played the slot in the nickel defense..

bigbluedefense
07-26-2006, 11:41 AM
I have pretty much stayed out of this conversation, but Im pleased with the way it turned out, most provided intelligent and logical insight to their arguments, and it was well presented. Here's my take.

Its very very difficult to state who's the best CB for several reasons. Its so dependent on other factors, that its very hard to make an honest assumption unless you study every play during the year for every team. Pass rush, how many times teams throw on you, how many times teams run on you, style of defense, how long youre on the field, level of competition, type of stadium (dome vs windy NE), how often your team blitzes, I can go on and on. Having that said, you can make some sort of assumption as to who is the best, but it will never be set in stone. Theres too many variables in place that can effect DB play to make a concrete analysis of who's the best.

Also remember the whole "stats" thing can be misleading. Newman "gave up no TDs", but he gave up a couple of near TDs. One play against Washington, he got burned by Moss (@ Wash) and Moss was considered down on like the 1 inch line. According to stats, Newman didn't give up a TD...but we all know that TD scored was on Newman...so raw stats can be misleading. It can be informative, but it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Now, who's the best? Its very close. You have compelling arguments for Newman, Springs, and Sheldon Brown imo. Brown plays with great safeties and a solid #2 corner. Springs plays with a ballhawk FS who can get his back and a developing stud corner in Rogers, Newman has 2 solid cover corners playing with him but does not have great safeties to help up top. Weighing the variables, I'm gonna have to say Newman in a close one over Springs, with Brown in 3rd. I believe that ultimately a CB is asked to not give up the big play. At the end of the day, thats the most important responsibility of a CB. And Newman did it the best, and he did it without great coverage safeties to bail him out. Its real real close, and I can't say for sure because of the variables that can effect DB play, but if you put a gun to my head and asked me who's the best, I go with Newman. Springs and Madison would be the best 2 years ago, but right here right now I have to give it to Newman.

Good post but Newman wasn't covering Moss. Glenn got burned by moss, Newman played the slot in the nickel defense..

Youre right, I looked back at the replays on youtube, it wasn't Newman. But I'm sure if you dig through the tapes from last year there had to be another instance where he didn't give up a TD officially, but it was sort of his fault. I was just using that as a reference as to how stats can be misleading.

I would like to point out another thing about Newman that people don't give him credit for. Its been said that Champ (ive said this as well) is great because not only is he asked to take on the best WR on the other team man up, but he also defends TEs like Gonzalez man up. Well, to Newman's credit, he's done the same thing with Shockey. And he shut him down. Shockey had only 2 big catches, and both were against Roy Williams (Williams didn't necessarilly get burned, but blew his assignment), but was locked up by Newman. So if we praise Champ for this, we should do the same with Newman. Also, he put the clamps on Steve Smith. Not many can do that in the league, let alone the NFC East. He should get the proper due for that too. Although an argument can be made that he owned Smith because Ware was owning Delhomme that game. This again goes back to the fact that its hard to truely evaluate a DB because of other variables. Would he own Smith if Ware wasn't pushing Dellhomme's $hit in? We'll never know...

LSUALUM99
07-26-2006, 01:39 PM
This is why football is both the best and the worst of the major sports to talk about amongst fans.

It's the best because there is such interdependence among the different facets of the game that it's nearly impossible to prove your point on any 'who is best' discussion. This lends iteslf to great debates and postulating by fans.

It's the worst because of that same interdependence.


Since I am a Cowboys fan I'll use Cowboy examples. Is Emmit Smith the greatest runner of all time or the beneficiary of a great offensive line? Was the line really that good or did an incredible runner with great instincts and vision make the line look better? I Aikman in the Hall of Fame because he had Emitt Smith keeping 8 in the box and Irvin on the outside? Did the defense that was so good in the 90's give Emmit and Aikman just more opportunities to work with a short field?

Was Barry Sanders a better running back than Emmitt? What about the fact that Barry Sanders has the most negative rushing yards of any running back of all time? Was this because of his OL or was his OL looking so bad because he improvised so much?


Or for another line of reasoning. We all know that having a strong pass rush improves your pass defense by increasing turnovers and decreasing the ability of receivers to get open. We also know that having good corners increases the amount of time that it takes for WR's to get open so that increases the effectiveness of a good pass rush as well.

Stats are misleading. What's better a pass for 15 yards on 3rd and 17 OR a pass for 2 yards on 3rd and 1? In the stat column one is better but on the playing field the other is more effective.

Should you count interceptions at the end of the year for QB's and then compare who is better? What about the INTS that were dropped by the DB's so just became bad incompletions. These were worse passes than those tipped by the WR that happen to bounce into the DB's hands. One is not the QB's fault the other is. But yet they don't count the same in the statistical category.

And finally, what was the responsibility of the CB? If the coach wants the CB to gamble for the pick because they are behind should you judge his play the same as the coach that wants the CB to play off because they are protecting the lead? You see, things like that don't show up in the stat colum but are directly related to the CB's abilities.

Honestly, one of the best posts ever read on this site. It is still my opinion that most of those metric stats are meaningless. I honestly don't think one GM in this league would look at those stats and judge anybody buy them. Especially when it came to say choosing between two players in free agency.

Thanks, and considering NYG are your favorite team, I'm sure it's genuine. After all, it's just a little bit harder to like a post from a Cowboy fan :).

07-26-2006, 03:30 PM
Lito will bounce back

cunningham06
07-26-2006, 03:35 PM
Lito will bounce back

I hope so, he's doing well at training camp this year. In 04 he made the pro bowl because we had a good pass rush, and our pass rush should be much better this season, so it's possible. He was god awful though last year.

07-26-2006, 03:38 PM
Lito will bounce back

I hope so, he's doing well at training camp this year. In 04 he made the pro bowl because we had a good pass rush, and our pass rush should be much better this season, so it's possible. He was god awful though last year.
ya with your oline qb will have to throw quick and he will jump the passes

cunningham06
07-26-2006, 03:43 PM
Lito will bounce back

I hope so, he's doing well at training camp this year. In 04 he made the pro bowl because we had a good pass rush, and our pass rush should be much better this season, so it's possible. He was god awful though last year.
ya with your oline qb will have to throw quick and he will jump the passes

Darren Howard, Jevon Kearse, and Trent Cole- That is a beastly 3 end rotation. I cede awesomeness to the Giants though Strahan, Umenyiora, and Kiwanuka decimates all.