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Non_Sequitur
04-13-2007, 05:11 AM
Here are my issues with the Jets' picks. Red indicates Scott's pick, Green indicates what it should have been.

1. Greg Olsen, TE
1. Chris Houston, CB

The Jets could use an upgrade at Tight End. There is no falsehood there. But are we really going to start Poteat this year? No. We are taking a CB ASAP if we can't aquire one before the draft, which is unlikely. Houston would be start ready opposite of Dyson, and is fast enough to do what Mangini wants.

2. Lamarr Woodley, DE
2. Ikaika Alama-Francis, DE

Did you not see the collection of rusted out busts the Jets have collected to throw against the wall in hopes of finding someone decent? Francis would make a fine duo at 3-4 DE across from Ellis. Not to mention, Ellis isn't a fan of being a 3-4 DE and has expressed that he wouldn't mind being traded. As good as he is, he wants to be a pass rusher. We need a 3-4 DE more than an OLB tweener.

2. Daymeion Hughes, CB
2. Brian Robinson, DE

I don't get what makes you think that Hughes is a perfect fit for Mangini's system. His system requires players to be quick, something Hughes is definitely not. Robinson is a fast edge rusher, and will get to the QB as a 3-4 OLB. I trust his speed over Woodley's college production.

3. Paul Soliai, DT
3. Sabby Piscitelli, DB

Piscitelli is a playmaking DB with all the speed, power, and production anyone could ask for. He is exactly what Mangini loves. A guy who can do it all who is a locker room asset. Erik Coleman wasn't exactly top notch in Mangini's scheme, and Psicitelli would, at bare minimum be a great backup for both safety spots as well as CB on occasion. We already have mediocre big boys at NT, and if we are going to get another NT it has to be an upgrade, not just another body. That's a waste.

gang_green03
04-13-2007, 05:40 PM
Those are silimar to my problems with it as well.

The Woodley and Soliai picks are fine, but I would have a hard time with either Olsen or Hughes. Passing on Houston for Olsen makes no sense to me and you pretty much echoed my thoughts on that. Similar to what you said, Hughes also makes little sense to me because he is so limited. He's strictly a zone corner and has neither the quickness, or man-to-man skills that make me think he could succeed here.

I would rather have Francis than Woodley but I can't argue with the logic. Also, Soliai's a fairly solid pick there to me.

Zim3031
04-13-2007, 05:49 PM
DB isn't even a need for us. I don't understand why you would want to take two on the first day. I absolutely hate the idea of drafting a TE first round (too many memories) but I definitely like it better than a cornerback.

Non_Sequitur
04-13-2007, 06:18 PM
Those are silimar to my problems with it as well.

The Woodley and Soliai picks are fine, but I would have a hard time with either Olsen or Hughes. Passing on Houston for Olsen makes no sense to me and you pretty much echoed my thoughts on that. Similar to what you said, Hughes also makes little sense to me because he is so limited. He's strictly a zone corner and has neither the quickness, or man-to-man skills that make me think he could succeed here.

I would rather have Francis than Woodley but I can't argue with the logic. Also, Soliai's a fairly solid pick there to me.


I can't believe that Scott said Hughes was "perfect" for our system. Our system covers quick cover ability, not slow high risk INT attempts.

My issue with Soliai is that A. Pouha was a better prospect coming out. B. DeWayne Robertson is already better than his potential will be. C. he has been suspended twice for breaking team rules. And D. He has laziness and weight issues.


DB isn't even a need for us. I don't understand why you would want to take two on the first day. I absolutely hate the idea of drafting a TE first round (too many memories) but I definitely like it better than a cornerback.

How can you even say that? It's our biggest need.

gang_green03
04-13-2007, 06:36 PM
My issue with Soliai is that A. Pouha was a better prospect coming out. B. DeWayne Robertson is already better than his potential will be. C. he has been suspended twice for breaking team rules. And D. He has laziness and weight issues.

I disagree that he's not as good a prospect as Pouha. At worst, I think that they have similar potential, but the fact that Soliai is bigger and younger gives him the egde IMO. I think he has the potential to be a dominant run stuffer and solid against the pass. If he came here hopefully his laziness could be fixed. I wouldn't take him on the first day but he's worth a flier in the 4th round or later. Didn't know he was suspended though, that's not good.

Zim3031
04-14-2007, 08:56 AM
How can you even say that? It's our biggest need.

How can you say that? Our secondary played excellently last year considering that our terrible front seven had to blitz every down to get pressure.

You have to understand that our scheme does not require these elite athletes at the cornerback position to succeed. What we need is smart cornerbacks that can play well in zone and tackle well. It would be a waste to spend so much money on a player when a perfectly capable starter can be found for much much cheaper. Take a look at Mangini's history over at New England as their secondary's coach. He has a history of turning complete scrubs in the secondary to capable starters. Hank Poteat played fantastic for us last year, don't forget that.

What a defense like ours needs is to build itself along the front seven, and particularly, the defensive line, where Shaun Ellis is really the only "good" player. And that's without getting to the lack of pass rush that the linebackers are supposed to supply. Hobson and Thomas are both solid players, but an excellent pass rush is integral to success in the modern NFL, and we lack the cornerstone to build one.

Non_Sequitur
04-14-2007, 12:09 PM
How can you say that? Our secondary played excellently last year considering that our terrible front seven had to blitz every down to get pressure.

You have to understand that our scheme does not require these elite athletes at the cornerback position to succeed. What we need is smart cornerbacks that can play well in zone and tackle well. It would be a waste to spend so much money on a player when a perfectly capable starter can be found for much much cheaper. Take a look at Mangini's history over at New England as their secondary's coach. He has a history of turning complete scrubs in the secondary to capable starters. Hank Poteat played fantastic for us last year, don't forget that.

What a defense like ours needs is to build itself along the front seven, and particularly, the defensive line, where Shaun Ellis is really the only "good" player. And that's without getting to the lack of pass rush that the linebackers are supposed to supply. Hobson and Thomas are both solid players, but an excellent pass rush is integral to success in the modern NFL, and we lack the cornerstone to build one.


Wow.

Lets take a look at New England. Mangini did well with scrubs, but he did his best with Ty Law and Asante Samuel. Two Pro Bowl level athletes. And certainly Andre Dyson is no Ty Law. And Justin Miller is no Asante Samuel. Mangini's system requires that you play press man coverage, something we don't have the players to do. Coleman was not stellar at S and I hope he can rebound, but we need some insurance. We can NOT go a full year with Hank Poteat and David Barrett attempting to man one side, with Justin Miller still trying to do the slot.

As for our front 7, we need run stoppers. We need to sure up our end spot, which I had us doing, with a run stopper. If you watched and paid attention to him, Robertson got a lot better at NT as the season went on. He's still not stellar, but to call Ellis (who is a stud) the only good thing is to overlook the improvement of Robertson. At LB we could use an upgrade at ILB next to Vilma, and at OLB across from from Thomas. The guys we have now are ok. They are just nothing special. Hobson might be able to fill the ILB role if we can get someone instead of him at OLB. But the LB spots are lower on the list, behind DE and CB.

BroadwayJoe10
04-14-2007, 01:18 PM
As for our front 7, we need run stoppers. We need to sure up our end spot, which I had us doing, with a run stopper. If you watched and paid attention to him, Robertson got a lot better at NT as the season went on. He's still not stellar, but to call Ellis (who is a stud) the only good thing is to overlook the improvement of Robertson. At LB we could use an upgrade at ILB next to Vilma, and at OLB across from from Thomas. The guys we have now are ok. They are just nothing special. Hobson might be able to fill the ILB role if we can get someone instead of him at OLB. But the LB spots are lower on the list, behind DE and CB.


very much agreed on the linebacker description..and i beleive after the draft is over we'll have a very good understanding of what mangini thinks of haynes, bowens, wadsworth and their potential positions...im hoping hobson movies inside and bowens makes a good OLB opposite of thomas, and we can use our draft on other positions besides DE and LB which i dont think is high priority

Zim3031
04-14-2007, 02:15 PM
Lets take a look at New England. Mangini did well with scrubs, but he did his best with Ty Law and Asante Samuel. Two Pro Bowl level athletes. And certainly Andre Dyson is no Ty Law. And Justin Miller is no Asante Samuel. Mangini's system requires that you play press man coverage, something we don't have the players to do. Coleman was not stellar at S and I hope he can rebound, but we need some insurance. We can NOT go a full year with Hank Poteat and David Barrett attempting to man one side, with Justin Miller still trying to do the slot.
When the Patriots won the super bowl in '04 Ty Law as injured, and they had very little depth at cornerback. As a result, Troy Brown was forced to play nickelback, and you know what? He wasn't half bad. Why? because this system does not require elite athletes in the secondary, it requires smart players that have good instincts and can tackle. I have no idea where you got the notion that we play aggressive man coverage. That's just simply not true. Our cornerbacks play a large percentage of zone coverage, if we had played man-man the whole time, then our aggressive blitz packages would've been suicide.

And you're right, Coleman was very mediocre, however we also drafted Eric Smith last year, and drafting two possible replacements in two years would be illogical.
As for our front 7, we need run stoppers. We need to sure up our end spot, which I had us doing, with a run stopper. If you watched and paid attention to him, Robertson got a lot better at NT as the season went on. He's still not stellar, but to call Ellis (who is a stud) the only good thing is to overlook the improvement of Robertson. At LB we could use an upgrade at ILB next to Vilma, and at OLB across from from Thomas. The guys we have now are ok. They are just nothing special. Hobson might be able to fill the ILB role if we can get someone instead of him at OLB. But the LB spots are lower on the list, behind DE and CB.
Take a look at every good 3-4 defense in the league, Pittsburgh(before Tomlin), N.E, San Diego... what do they all have in common? A true nose tackle, which is something that Robertson is just not. He is an "alright" player on the line, but NT is by far the most important position on this type of defense and settling for an "alright" player would be silly.

And once again, linebackers are the key to our pass rush, even you admitted that our current supply of them are nothing more than okay. Pass rush is everything in today's NFL, and we lack an impact pass rusher.

frogstomp
04-17-2007, 11:30 AM
Take a look at every good 3-4 defense in the league, Pittsburgh(before Tomlin), N.E, San Diego... what do they all have in common? A true nose tackle, which is something that Robertson is just not. He is an "alright" player on the line, but NT is by far the most important position on this type of defense and settling for an "alright" player would be silly.

And where, exactly, do you propose we get this elite NT? It's a lot easier to say we need one than it is to get one. There simply isn't anythone in this draft that looks like they could become an elite NT.

Crickett
04-17-2007, 12:55 PM
I disagree that he's not as good a prospect as Pouha. At worst, I think that they have similar potential, but the fact that Soliai is bigger and younger gives him the egde IMO. I think he has the potential to be a dominant run stuffer and solid against the pass. If he came here hopefully his laziness could be fixed. I wouldn't take him on the first day but he's worth a flier in the 4th round or later.

I don't think he is worth a flier. The Jets already drafted Pouha, they don't need to do so again. Soliai is bigger and younger but Pouha is stronger and already on the team.

I actually think the Jets are pretty set at cornerback, but I could see them addressing the position is what is a pretty strong CB class. So long as they address OL later in day 1.

Zim3031
04-17-2007, 03:43 PM
And where, exactly, do you propose we get this elite NT? It's a lot easier to say we need one than it is to get one. There simply isn't anythone in this draft that looks like they could become an elite NT.
The NT was just one example of a position that we need more than cornerback, I was hardly being specific with every example. Do you believe that cornerback is a more important need on this team than a DE, a pass rushing OLB, and maybe a big mauler on the offensive line?

frogstomp
04-17-2007, 03:48 PM
The NT was just one example of a position that we need more than cornerback, I was hardly being specific with every example. Do you believe that cornerback is a more important need on this team than a DE, a pass rushing OLB, and maybe a big mauler on the offensive line?


I believe that most of those are deeper positions in the draft, so we could get good talent later on... where corner, unless we take one early, we might as well not.

BroadwayJoe10
04-17-2007, 07:21 PM
i still dont think we should really be worrying as much as some are about the DE and pass rushing olb ...we have yet to find out what coleman, haynes, bowens and possibly even wadsworth will add to the team...i can't really speculate on how the coachin staff feels towards these players other than the fact that they wanted them enough to sign em (especially coleman with the gauranteed money they gave him)..i think we could use one of the corners like revis/houston/ross etc just as i think we could use one of the DEs such as johnson/moss etc. but it seems as tho we've accumulated quite the amount of DEs and de/olb's this offseason whereas i dont beleive we had any additions to our secondary..i feel thats a pretty good inclination that we are looking towards cb in the draft. now whether thats with our first pick i am not sure, but i am almost certain we will be coming away with a cb on day one.

Crickett
04-17-2007, 11:22 PM
Do you believe that cornerback is a more important need on this team than a DE

Yes.

a pass rushing OLB

At the beginning of the offseason, I'd say no, but with offseason acquisitions, I'd say they're about equal.

and maybe a big mauler on the offensive line?

No.