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View Full Version : James Marten vs Manuel Ramirez


bigbluedefense
04-16-2007, 10:24 AM
If you had to choose between him and Ramirez, who would you choose?

I was thinking about this earlier, and James Marten could be the guy. He played OG at BC before this year, and played it well from what Ive heard. He moved outside to Tackle because Trueblood left, but what I like about Marten is, he provides versatility that Ramirez cannot provide us.

He posseses the ability to play OG, RT, and possibly LT. Now, I don't know if he can play at as high of a level as Ramirez, and thats the advantage Ramirez has.

While Ramirez is almost exclusively a ROG, he probably has potential to be a better OG than Marten would be.

So who would be better for us? At first I thought Ramirez was the clearcut choice, but Im having second thoughts.

Think of this in the long term. Don't think about it just for next year.

Don Vito
04-16-2007, 10:27 AM
Coming from a BC fan, if you want a guard you want Ramirez. He is a better guard then Marten. However, Marten is a very good tackle (better tackle than guard), and as you mentioned has the versatility to play both tackle spots plus guard. He is probably a top 5 tackle in this draft, his ability to play guard is just a plus.

bigbluedefense
04-16-2007, 10:29 AM
Coming from a BC fan, if you want a guard you want Ramirez. He is a better guard then Marten. However, Marten is a very good tackle (better tackle than guard), and as you mentioned has the versatility to play both tackle spots plus guard. He is probably a top 5 tackle in this draft, his ability to play guard is just a plus.

Having watched him, do you feel that he can make the transition to LT in the pros?

I haven't seen much of him honestly, and most scouts say he has trouble with speed rushers which would be a problem at LT. What do you think is his best suited position?

Don Vito
04-16-2007, 10:36 AM
Well he played LT this year, and he did a solid job. He did struggle sometimes with speed rushers, but not as much as you would think. Most of the talk about ihs struggles is just projections of where he will struggle as a pro. His ability to handle speed rushers and his pass-blocking in general improved immensley from his junior season to his senior season. He is a super run blocker as well.

That being said I think his best pro position is RT because of his run blocking abilities, but he certainly can be a solid LT in the NFL in my eyes. He can pass block much better than people think. He has a vastly underrated size-strength-speed combonation, he could be a very good suprise for an NFL team.

GiantRutgersFan
04-16-2007, 11:09 AM
Marten by a good margin. However I think Marten also is gonna be gone a while before Ramirez will.

I also think that Right Tackle would be Marten's his best use. I think that he could be a servicable LT, but i wouldnt count on him as a long term solution at Left tackle, although you never know. He could also play guard at a fairly high level

If we did draft Marten what do you think he would be playing this season? R

bigbluedefense
04-16-2007, 11:19 AM
Marten by a good margin. However I think Marten also is gonna be gone a while before Ramirez will.

I also think that Right Tackle would be Marten's his best use. I think that he could be a servicable LT, but i wouldnt count on him as a long term solution at Left tackle, although you never know. He could also play guard at a fairly high level

If we did draft Marten what do you think he would be playing this season? R

It would have to be either LT, or OG. McKenzie's contract does not allow him to move around, he's strictly a RT. I would like Marten has a LT for now, then move him to RT when McKenzie's contract expires. It would be a nice long term move on our part. That would allow us to keep Diehl at OG as well.

I personally think we made a mistake resigning OHara. I don't like him that much. He's a jersey boy, and a local product and all, but still. We wouldve been better nabbing a Ryan Kalil or Kyle Young in this draft. I wouldn't mind if we still went after Kyle Young in a later round.

GiantRutgersFan
04-16-2007, 11:24 AM
^I liked the resigning. O'hara is good at his position. not elite, but good. Plus if he was gone, our offensive line would have a lot of holes and we wouldnt have many options other then to fix it in the draft. Continuty is a big thing for the Oline.

I also saw a Mckenzie qoute the other day saying he would have switched to LT if the Giants asked him a few weeks ago. I doubt it happens, but Marten could potentially play RT and Mckenzie LT next season if this all happens.

Forenci
04-16-2007, 11:35 AM
I've really liked Manny Ramirez ever since I saw him at the Senior Bowl, but I still like James Marten quite a bit.

That said, I think I'd have to go with Ramirez, mainly because I think he can instantly be a starter - where as James Marten at best, can bring us some depth to tackle.

Not to mention Ramirez is a complete mauler with some good pass protection ability, which would suit our needs perfectly: hammer the run, and give Eli some more time to throw.

- Also, this is my reasoning for long term also. I mean, who knows if Marten will pan out as a Left Tackle (in a similar situation as Whimper), but at least Manny can take over the guard posistion this year and the future.

bigbluedefense
04-16-2007, 11:47 AM
I've really liked Manny Ramirez ever since I saw him at the Senior Bowl, but I still like James Marten quite a bit.

That said, I think I'd have to go with Ramirez, mainly because I think he can instantly be a starter - where as James Marten at best, can bring us some depth to tackle.

Not to mention Ramirez is a complete mauler with some good pass protection ability, which would suit our needs perfectly: hammer the run, and give Eli some more time to throw.

- Also, this is my reasoning for long term also. I mean, who knows if Marten will pan out as a Left Tackle (in a similar situation as Whimper), but at least Manny can take over the guard posistion this year and the future.

And thats why Im currently leaning towards Manny.

But to be honest, Id ideally like to get both of them. Manny as a ROG, and Marten as our future RT. Its possible, if one falls to round 4.

GiantRutgersFan
04-16-2007, 12:38 PM
Marten is nothing like Guy Whimper at all. He has experience as a lineman and is a versatile player. At worst, he's gonna be a nice, versatile backup.

I have a feeling Whimper is gonna end up getting cut before the 2008 season...

bigbluedefense
04-16-2007, 12:46 PM
Marten is nothing like Guy Whimper at all. He has experience as a lineman and is a versatile player. At worst, he's gonna be a nice, versatile backup.

I have a feeling Whimper is gonna end up getting cut before the 2008 season...

Im not sold on Whimper. Never was. I wanted Eric Winston over him. Another typical Ernie Accorsi shot in the dark project player.

But I am biased here. I don't necessarily like TE converted LTs. I rather have someone with a history of playing Tackle or at least oline for that matter.

Damix
04-16-2007, 01:37 PM
McKenzie actually said he would of played LT this coming year if they had told him right away

Damix
04-16-2007, 01:37 PM
Im not sold on Whimper. Never was. I wanted Eric Winston over him. Another typical Ernie Accorsi shot in the dark project player.

But I am biased here. I don't necessarily like TE converted LTs. I rather have someone with a history of playing Tackle or at least oline for that matter.

Winston was a TE coming into college.

bigbluedefense
04-16-2007, 01:40 PM
McKenzie actually said he would of played LT this coming year if they had told him right away

Can he though? Im not sure if he's quick enough. Maybe theres still hope. Maybe he'll shed a little weight and give LT a try.

You know why he's probably saying that? His contract is coming up soon, and LT money is sweeter than RT money.

He probably wants to increase his FA stock by playing some LT for us.

Damix
04-16-2007, 01:41 PM
Can he though? Im not sure if he's quick enough. Maybe theres still hope. Maybe he'll shed a little weight and give LT a try.


I doubt he would be worse the Diehl, too late now though

bigbluedefense
04-16-2007, 01:43 PM
Winston was a TE coming into college.

But he's much more polished. Im sure theres lots of examples of TE converted to LT, but Im not a fan of guys who played only one year of Tackle coming into the draft.

Thats what I shouldve said.

scottyboy
04-16-2007, 02:30 PM
i feel Marten's versatilty would benefit us heavily. We have snee at RG, one of the best in the league. Marten would help us alot. Plus, we like BC players(kiwi and snee!)

Number 10
04-16-2007, 03:25 PM
Long term I have to go with Manny here.

I still hold onto what I stated in August that Ramirez can turn into Larry Allen at the snap of a finger if he can pass block. I get the feel his feet are a little too slow even for DTs right now, but if I am underestimating him there you are talking about the best guard in the NFC East within 2 years, better than Snee. If he could do that, we wouldn't have to pay Snee a monster contract like I think he will demand after even though I'd be sad to see him go.

Marten would be nice to have next year an in the coming years because he is more versatile and he could fill in at LT while Ramirez is strictly a guard I think.

bigbluedefense
04-16-2007, 03:31 PM
Long term I have to go with Manny here.

I still hold onto what I stated in August that Ramirez can turn into Larry Allen at the snap of a finger if he can pass block. I get the feel his feet are a little too slow even for DTs right now, but if I am underestimating him there you are talking about the best guard in the NFC East within 2 years, better than Snee. If he could do that, we wouldn't have to pay Snee a monster contract like I think he will demand after even though I'd be sad to see him go.

Marten would be nice to have next year an in the coming years because he is more versatile and he could fill in at LT while Ramirez is strictly a guard I think.

Ive been a huge Manny fan for a long long time now. Damn near since the College football season started. I remember chanting his name even when we didn't need an OG on our team.

I think he can be a Shaun Andrews type of player. He's a mauler. Its so hard to evaluate him based on game tape because of the awkward style Texas Tech uses. Im surprised why he even went there. But the Senior Bowl solidified my belief in him. He was the only OG there that handled Okeye. That should say something about his pass blocking in a normal style offensive line.

I think he'll be a steal. While Blaylock and Beekman are rated ahead of him, Id go as far as saying that Ramirez could be better than both of those guys, and maybe on the same level as Grubbs. Heck, he has potential to be the best OG of this group. To nab that in the 3rd would be a steal.

The scary thing is, I think every single team on this board, has fans projecting their team taking Ramirez in the 3rd. So who knows what his true draft position really is.

I wouldn't be surprised if we can keep him and Snee. We structure contracts pretty well, and Ramirez wouldn't be making much as a later round player. Plus, we're due for some cap space after guys like Strahan and Toomer retire.

That would be a scary OG duo. I still would like an upgrade at Center though. Im not the biggest OHara fan. We resigned him more out of desperation than desire.

Here's a scary thought though, since we're talking cap #s. If Plaxico Burress has a killer year and becomes a PBer....will he demand more money? His agent is Drew Rosenhaus afterall, and if you think about it, we got Plax for peanuts. That could be a potentially ugly situation.

Hopefully Amani is the one who has the PB year and we won't have to worry about that :)

Number 10
04-16-2007, 03:44 PM
The only reason I worry about Snee leaving is this past offseason where mediocre guards were getting ridiculous, monstrous contracts. I mean, if the market were to dictate what Snee is going to get which is usually does, we're talking along the lines of $55-$60 million over 7 years with the cap increases. No way would I pay that to a guard, maybe not even Hutchinson.

bigbluedefense
04-16-2007, 03:49 PM
The only reason I worry about Snee leaving is this past offseason where mediocre guards were getting ridiculous, monstrous contracts. I mean, if the market were to dictate what Snee is going to get which is usually does, we're talking along the lines of $55-$60 million over 7 years with the cap increases. No way would I pay that to a guard, maybe not even Hutchinson.

Thats true. But I think the market will eventually balance itself out. OGs are making a ton of money right now, but I think it will eventually become relative to other contracts, and we'll see a gradual overall increase in player salary, but the percentages should become equal to what they are now.

If we take a strict "build throught the draft/resign own players" philosophy from now on, we should be ok. I like that approach anyway.

Forenci
04-16-2007, 05:03 PM
I think Manny is much better at pass blocking than he gets credit for. I was taking notes during the Senior Bowl practices and he was one of two or three Guards I noted that could "pass block effectively".

He could start immediately for us at Left Guard and if as Number 10 suggests (which I agree with completely) that Snee wants big bucks that we don't want to shell out then we can easily plug him in at RG and he'll likely do an even better job than Snee.

Hmm. How about this for a trade? The Dolphins trade up from the 60th overall pick to our 51st pick. In return they swap their 3rd round (#71) with our 3rd rounder (#81) and then they swap their 4th rounder (#108) with our 4th rounder (#116). Then we probably pick up both Manny Ramirez and James Marten. I would cry if that happened, despite the fact it's unlikely.

scottyboy
04-16-2007, 05:13 PM
Thats true. But I think the market will eventually balance itself out. OGs are making a ton of money right now, but I think it will eventually become relative to other contracts, and we'll see a gradual overall increase in player salary, but the percentages should become equal to what they are now.

If we take a strict "build throught the draft/resign own players" philosophy from now on, we should be ok. I like that approach anyway.

plus i think Snee would want to stay. Ithink he's one of those guys who mite even take a pay cut to stay with us. Reese should try and lock him up long term this year(which i feel he may)

bigbluedefense
04-16-2007, 05:19 PM
If we do get Manny, that would most likely mean Snee would move to LG right?

I would like that more. Snee has the speed needed at LG, and Ramirez would be a better mauler at RG.

scottyboy
04-16-2007, 05:21 PM
If we do get Manny, that would most likely mean Snee would move to LG right?

I would like that more. Snee has the speed needed at LG, and Ramirez would be a better mauler at RG.

LT- dieh LG snee- C Ohara- RG manny-RT kareem

I'd take that in a heartbeat!!!

bigbluedefense
04-16-2007, 05:25 PM
LT- dieh LG snee- C Ohara- RG manny-RT kareem

I'd take that in a heartbeat!!!

The only weak link on that unit from a run blocking perspective is OHara. But Id take it for now.

I still want to address Center in next year's draft.

scottyboy
04-16-2007, 05:37 PM
why not this year with Darnell Stapleton?(wow ima homer)

but in all seriousness, Darnell has a nasty streak in him and is a strong mauler. Needs to learn moer though, something i think sitting a year behind O'hara would benefit him

Damix
04-16-2007, 05:56 PM
If Kyle Young goes undrafted, do we pick him up and try to turn him into what Seubert was for us last year?

bigbluedefense
04-16-2007, 07:08 PM
If Kyle Young goes undrafted, do we pick him up and try to turn him into what Seubert was for us last year?

Depends if we get a OG in the draft.

If we don't, he could be a viable undrafted option. He can play OG if necessary, but he's very slow, so I don't expect big things out of him.

I hope he does in fact go undrafted.

Id scoop him up, and for a year condition him into 320ish, and hope he can become a backup C to OHara. Maybe even replace him (wishful thinking).