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View Full Version : Revist 2004 QB draft.


eacantdraft
08-22-2006, 12:17 PM
If you knew now what you knew then, who would you take if you had to start a team today.

I'd take Big Ben who I liked the best before the 2004 draft. He's big and throws well on the run.

To provide balance in the choices I ranked them to the order that the QB's were drafted.

08-22-2006, 12:22 PM
Eli is going to be very good, probably a pro-bowler, but Ben has the ring so i would have to choose him.

bsaza2358
08-22-2006, 12:27 PM
I don't think the Giants would have done it any differently. I'm guessing the Chargers liked the deal they got to trade back from #1 to #4. Rivers was their guy, and I don't think either Ben or Eli would have cracked the lineup with Brees playing the way he did. Since Marty and AJ both liked Rivers, he'd probably still got #4. I'm not sure Ben would have been as good without the great O-Line and running game in Pittsburgh. Still, the Steelers love him. I don't think I would have done it any differently.

Number 10
08-22-2006, 12:49 PM
Even though I have admitted Big Ben has played better QB over the course of their first 2 years in the NFL, I would still take Eli over him if I were starting my own team. This is the year Eli will be put ahead of Big Ben on almost every board.

BehrenMan007
08-22-2006, 12:53 PM
The man with the ring on his finger

danman253
08-22-2006, 01:00 PM
Even though I have admitted Big Ben has played better QB over the course of their first 2 years in the NFL, I would still take Eli over him if I were starting my own team. This is the year Eli will be put ahead of Big Ben on almost every board.


That title under your name is very true.

Unless Eli takes the Giants very far, i'm not putting him ahead of Ben. No way no how.

bigbluedefense
08-22-2006, 01:01 PM
When you draft a qb, he is your guy for the next 12 years. Not 2. I like Ben alot and think he will be a great qb, but knowing what I know now, Id still take Eli because he will be the better qb over the coarse of their careers. Ben has won a SB and has a better win % yes, but thats not entirely him, and knowing what I know about my team, I know for a fact that Ben wouldn't be as successful as he is now if the Giants drafted him. That doesn't mean Ben is bad...if you think just because he throws 17 times a game and he has an all world oline/run game/defense that he is not good, then youre wrong. Hes a great qb in his own right, but at the same time, I think the media and common fans alike have overrated him because they relate the Steeler's success directly to Ben Roethlisberger which is not true.

Eli will make the leap this year and prove all the doubters wrong. I think Ben and Eli will be similar to Marino/Elway in a way because both will be great and you can make a strong argument for both...but ultimately you can't go wrong with either.

I like Phillip Rivers and Im rooting for him, but I think Ben is better, but again, that doesn't mean that Rivers will be bad. Schaub winded up being a 3rd round sleeper, hes good too.

Honestly, Im not a believer in JP Lossman, never have been. I believe every qb must get 4 years before you call them busts, but I have a feeling Lossman will disappoint.

Number 10
08-22-2006, 01:04 PM
Even though I have admitted Big Ben has played better QB over the course of their first 2 years in the NFL, I would still take Eli over him if I were starting my own team. This is the year Eli will be put ahead of Big Ben on almost every board.


That title under your name is very true.

Unless Eli takes the Giants very far, i'm not putting him ahead of Ben. No way no how.

We'll see.

draftguru151
08-22-2006, 01:04 PM
I'm still taking Eli, then Rivers, then Big Ben.

Ward
08-22-2006, 01:06 PM
I voted Rivers. I liked him better in college than the other two.

bigbluedefense
08-22-2006, 01:07 PM
And while I agree that the ring on Ben's finger makes him better as of now, its unfair to make him out to be the best based solely on that reason. Many great qb's don't have rings, and many average ones do, but you wouldn't confuse the 2. Dilfer, Rypien, Theisman, etc is no way, shape or form better than Marino.

I think its much too early to make a consensus decision on who was the best qb from this draft class. Based on what we've already seen, Ben is the best at the moment. But none of us can see the future, and much can change over the next 10 years. Especially since alot of these qbs are still developing. Eli will make the leap this year, Rivers finally gets to start, Schaub has yet to get his much deserved starting job on a different team...its faaaar too early to look back on this draft class.

Number 10
08-22-2006, 01:12 PM
And like I have said before, I hold off my big time judgments on QBs until they have played for three years. Ben has one year left, Eli has a year or 2 left, and Rivers has 3 left.

Immaculate Tackle
08-22-2006, 01:15 PM
I'm still taking Eli, then Rivers, then Big Ben.
Wow...you're taking a guy with a career percentage of 50% and a guy who has done nothing over someone who has posted back to back 98 QB ratings? Not to mention 3 great ROAD playoff performances?

And bigbluedefense has some good points, but he continues to overrate the Steelers pass protection. They are fierce run blockers, but terribly inconsistent pass protectors.

I'm not saying that Eli Manning is a bust. But he's done nothing to show anyone that he is better than Roethlisberger. Sure, Roethlisberger has some better defensive talent (that's about the limit of BB's advantages). And it's possible that he will be better than Roethlisberger. But there's no actual positive evidence that he will be.

bigbluedefense
08-22-2006, 01:20 PM
I'm still taking Eli, then Rivers, then Big Ben.
Wow...you're taking a guy with a career percentage of 50% and a guy who has done nothing over someone who has posted back to back 98 QB ratings? Not to mention 3 great ROAD playoff performances?

And bigbluedefense has some good points, but he continues to overrate the Steelers pass protection. They are fierce run blockers, but terribly inconsistent pass protectors.

Well, theyre pass protection isn't the best best in the league, but its by far not the worst. Ive paid attention to Ben's footwork in the pocket, and its not great which leads to some of his sacks. He doesn't step up in the pocket enough, he likes sitting back there and rolling out...this looks flashy on tv but is not the proper way. A couple of times Ive seen him roll out and get sacked when he couldve easily stepped up and evaded pressure, and made the throw, so while the pass protection may not be Seattle's, its not as bad as the numbers indicate.

Number 10
08-22-2006, 01:31 PM
I'm still taking Eli, then Rivers, then Big Ben.
Wow...you're taking a guy with a career percentage of 50% and a guy who has done nothing over someone who has posted back to back 98 QB ratings? Not to mention 3 great ROAD playoff performances?

And bigbluedefense has some good points, but he continues to overrate the Steelers pass protection. They are fierce run blockers, but terribly inconsistent pass protectors.

I'm not saying that Eli Manning is a bust. But he's done nothing to show anyone that he is better than Roethlisberger. Sure, Roethlisberger has some better defensive talent (that's about the limit of BB's advantages). And it's possible that he will be better than Roethlisberger. But there's no actual positive evidence that he will be.

And that's why there will be no winner to this debate. They both have a ways to go in terms of becoming complete QBs in this league. Ben can do things Eli can't, Eli can do things Ben can't. They are both in good situations right now in terms of the team they play for. This debate can't seriously take place for another 2-3 years even though it will have it's own thread at least 10 times between now and February.

Immaculate Tackle
08-22-2006, 01:38 PM
Out of curiosity, what do you think Eli can do that Ben can't?

08-22-2006, 01:43 PM
Out of curiosity, what do you think Eli can do that Ben can't?

Look at this

Player G Att Cmp Pct Tot /Att /G TD TD% Int Int% Sack Rat
Eli Manning 16 557 294 52.8 3762 6.8 235.1 24 4.3 17 3.1 27 75.9





Player Team Yds Yds/Att Yds/Gm Att Comp Comp % TD INT Sacked Rating
1. Ben Roethlisberger PITTSBURGH 2385 8.9 149.1 268 168 62.7 17 9 23 98.6


Now shut up

steel man
08-22-2006, 01:46 PM
i like Ben in college above any of the others. he is bigger, stronger, has a stronger arm, smarter, can throw on the run better, and more accurate than all of the others execpt maybe and i mean maybe Rivers. i was hoping the steelers didnt want Rivers like was 1st said and the chargers like Ben like was 1st said. i am very happy with who we got.

you can say that us winning is not all Ben and you are right this is a team game. no one has won in football all by their selfs, but a player can have a bigger % than others and Ben is a Large, Large part of why we won, because we have basically the same team except QB and we could not win and then Ben comes and we go 15-1(and he did not loss the 1) break all kinds of records and come within 1 game of back to back super bowls. the reason we didnt was Ben was hurt and tired and i know we could have beat both teams because we did back to back also stopping NE's win streak.

so bottom line is i much rather have Ben!

Number 10
08-22-2006, 01:47 PM
Out of curiosity, what do you think Eli can do that Ben can't?

Honestly, I don't even want to get into the discussion because other people will jump in and start bantering about how I think too highly of Eli....etc. Once the season is under way we will all have more ammo to fire with, so I'd rather wait til then to have a full blown debate. But to answer your question shortly...I think Eli has more pocket presence and awareness than Ben does. Eli has a feel for pressure that I rarely see in any veteran QBs-let alone a first year starter. I feel that he is more clutch than Ben is (even though Eli played the worst I have seen any playoff QB play against the Panthers last January). He is so dependable late in games when the team needs points on the board, can't say that about Ben yet. I'm not saying he can't be dependable, but that offense has never been in his hands and when it needs to be, I just don't see "it". They both have strong arms, but I would give the arm strength edge to Eli, especially on the 5-10 yard throws and the 40+ yard throws.

Shiver
08-22-2006, 01:49 PM
Yeah, I agree. It takes three years to first judge a draft class. No one knows how good Losman or Rivers will be. This thread would be much better next year.

drowe
08-22-2006, 01:51 PM
who in the bloody hell voted for jp losman.

it has to be ben. i know he didn't throw 25-30 times a game. but all he's done is win. he's played smart and done what he's had to do.
manning does have an upside as of now, and he COULD take the next step. but how can you argue with results.
and i know it wasn't all big ben...but A LOT of those players were there when tommy maddox was under center.

Jughead10
08-22-2006, 01:52 PM
i like Ben in college above any of the others. he is bigger, stronger, has a stronger arm, smarter, can throw on the run better, and more accurate than all of the others execpt maybe and i mean maybe Rivers. i was hoping the steelers didnt want Rivers like was 1st said and the chargers like Ben like was 1st said. i am very happy with who we got.

you can say that us winning is not all Ben and you are right this is a team game. no one has won in football all by their selfs, but a player can have a bigger % than others and Ben is a Large, Large part of why we won, because we have basically the same team except QB and we could not win and then Ben comes and we go 15-1(and he did not loss the 1) break all kinds of records and come within 1 game of back to back super bowls. the reason we didnt was Ben was hurt and tired and i know we could have beat both teams because we did back to back also stopping NE's win streak.

so bottom line is i much rather have Ben!

Ben is no where near smarter than Eli. That might be the one thing that will always hold him back from being head and shoulders above Eli.

Also how hurt and tired was he really? Cowher didn't seem to think so.

SuperMcGee
08-22-2006, 01:52 PM
Losman beating Rivers? :lol:

I figured I'd throw JP a homer sympathy vote, but apparently the guy that needs it is the guy I'd actually take - Philip Rivers

Immaculate Tackle
08-22-2006, 02:01 PM
Out of curiosity, what do you think Eli can do that Ben can't?

Look at this

Player G Att Cmp Pct Tot /Att /G TD TD% Int Int% Sack Rat
Eli Manning 16 557 294 52.8 3762 6.8 235.1 24 4.3 17 3.1 27 75.9
Player Team Yds Yds/Att Yds/Gm Att Comp Comp % TD INT Sacked Rating
1. Ben Roethlisberger PITTSBURGH 2385 8.9 149.1 268 168 62.7 17 9 23 98.6
Now shut up
Great argument, moron. Care to explain how that proves anything? Also, were you shaken as a baby?
To the other guy:
He is so dependable late in games when the team needs points on the board, can't say that about Ben yet. I'm not saying he can't be dependable, but that offense has never been in his hands and when it needs to be, I just don't see "it".
You've got to be kidding me. Roethlisberger has SEVEN come-from-behind victories. The reason he's lost so few games is that he almost never comes up short when they need him the most. Read (http://footballoutsiders.com/ramblings.php?p=3978&cat=0) and weep:
Tom Brady is next on the list and, remember, these numbers do include the postseason. Brady is one of only a handful of quarterbacks with a winning record in more than three games with a fourth-quarter deficit. The others are Marc Bulger (10-5), Ben Roethlisberger (7-2), Steve Young (7-4) and John Elway (7-6). Bulger, who ranks eighth by this metric, is the only one in that group that has yet to win a Super Bowl.

Jughead10
08-22-2006, 02:08 PM
Tom Brady is next on the list and, remember, these numbers do include the postseason. Brady is one of only a handful of quarterbacks with a winning record in more than three games with a fourth-quarter deficit. The others are Marc Bulger (10-5), Ben Roethlisberger (7-2), Steve Young (7-4) and John Elway (7-6). Bulger, who ranks eighth by this metric, is the only one in that group that has yet to win a Super Bowl.

Sounds like one of those dumb KC Joyner metrics. I think this stat is an abberation. Look at how many opportunities Ben has already had. 7-2. Elways was 7-6 in his entire career. So in two years Ben has had 4 less come from behind oppotunities than Elway did in his entire career? My guess would be a lot of those comebacks were of 3 or less points.

Number 10
08-22-2006, 02:12 PM
This is exactly what I am trying to avoid. The whole insult based posts with the "you gotta be kidding me's". The majority of the NFL world would take Eli over Ben in the last 2 minutes of a game, that's all. In no way am I saying Ben is worse than Eli because I said last spring and I still say it now, Ben is off to a much better start and he has been the best QB up to this point. I have a feeling about Eli this season just like I had a feeling about the Giants last year at this time. Please try to avoid the insult based posts because the entire thread will go down a path that nobody wants to read.

Shiver
08-22-2006, 02:14 PM
Losman beating Rivers? :lol:

I figured I'd throw JP a homer sympathy vote, but apparently the guy that needs it is the guy I'd actually take - Philip Rivers


I thought coming out of the draft, that Rivers would be the best QB, Roethlisberger second. JP still has a chance, I think he'll have a much better year this upcoming one, building off some of his strong performances last year. Overall it is too early to have this discussion. After all, at this time in 1985, Marino was better than Elway. They all have a lot to prove:

Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.

Eli needs to show sound fundamentals, to improve his accuracy.

Rivers needs to play.

Losman needs a lot more time to see if he'll "get it."

Immaculate Tackle
08-22-2006, 02:17 PM
Jughead10:
Wow, read the damn article before calling it stupid. :roll: The data is from 1996, so obviously Elway wouldn't have had many chances.

You make me laugh. Anything to avoid the horrible conclusion that Ben Roethlisberger is actually clutch and has proven it in more than one game.
The majority of the NFL world would take Eli over Ben in the last 2 minutes of a game, that's all.
There's no actual evidence to support this ridiculous claim. It's funny that Giants fans are fawning over how "clutch" Eli is just because of the Denver game.
[qoute]Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB. [/quote]
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

Jughead10
08-22-2006, 02:27 PM
Jughead10:
Wow, read the damn article before calling it stupid. :roll: The data is from 1996, so obviously Elway wouldn't have had many chances.

You make me laugh. Anything to avoid the horrible conclusion that Ben Roethlisberger is actually clutch and has proven it in more than one game.
The majority of the NFL world would take Eli over Ben in the last 2 minutes of a game, that's all.
There's no actual evidence to support this ridiculous claim. It's funny that Giants fans are fawning over how "clutch" Eli is just because of the Denver game.
[qoute]Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.

First I never said Eli was clutch. And no I didn't go to the website because I pretty much frown upon football outsider and the KC Joyners of the world. Still I can't reacall Ben have any real dramatic comebacks. Which leads me to believe without looking it up because I don't have time, that they weren't great feats. Comeback victories could be down by 3 and scoring a TD in the first two minutes of the 4th quarter. Then having your defense hold onto to that. Comeback? Yes. Dramatic? No. Eli will have the appearance of a more clutch QB because I think there were three occassions where he leds his team back with a TD in the final 2 minutes of a game. Whether he is or isn't, I don't know. Still need more time.

Number 10
08-22-2006, 02:29 PM
Jughead10:
Wow, read the damn article before calling it stupid. :roll: The data is from 1996, so obviously Elway wouldn't have had many chances.

You make me laugh. Anything to avoid the horrible conclusion that Ben Roethlisberger is actually clutch and has proven it in more than one game.
The majority of the NFL world would take Eli over Ben in the last 2 minutes of a game, that's all.
There's no actual evidence to support this ridiculous claim. It's funny that Giants fans are fawning over how "clutch" Eli is just because of the Denver game.
[qoute]Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.[/quote]

Example A of why we should not have this discussion right now.

Shiver
08-22-2006, 02:34 PM
Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.

Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.


This year, supposedly, the Steelers are going to open up the passing game. After this year, we shall see if Ben can lead a offense like great Quarterbacks do, like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer.

Immaculate Tackle
08-22-2006, 02:35 PM
Jughead10: So basically you're full of crap and use nonsensical arguments like "I hate stat geeks".

Let's just use the example of the Chargers game. 4th quarter, 11 minutes left, the Steelers give up a touchdown and go down by two points.

1-10-PIT38 (11:33) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Ward to SD 29 for 33 yards (Q.Jammer).
1-10-SD29 (11:07) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Ward pushed ob at SD 16 for 13 yards (S.Davis).
1-10-SD16 (10:34) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Miller for 16 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Perfect. Clutch! But wait, the Chargers score another touchdown! The Steelers are down with 3 minutes to go.

Roethlisberger then has another perfect drive and puts them in FG range before getting his knee messed up. Reed makes the kick, Steelers win.

This is one of many examples.

Number 10
08-22-2006, 02:36 PM
Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.

Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.


This year, supposedly, the Steelers are going to open up the passing game. After this year, we shall see if Ben can lead a offense like great Quarterbacks do, like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer.

For an entire season, not a few games.

Jughead10
08-22-2006, 02:40 PM
Jughead10: So basically you're full of crap and use nonsensical arguments like "I hate stat geeks".

Let's just use the example of the Chargers game. 4th quarter, 11 minutes left, the Steelers give up a touchdown and go down by two points.

1-10-PIT38 (11:33) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Ward to SD 29 for 33 yards (Q.Jammer).
1-10-SD29 (11:07) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Ward pushed ob at SD 16 for 13 yards (S.Davis).
1-10-SD16 (10:34) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Miller for 16 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Perfect. Clutch! But wait, the Chargers score another touchdown! The Steelers are down with 3 minutes to go.

Roethlisberger then has another perfect drive and puts them in FG range before getting his knee messed up. Reed makes the kick, Steelers win.

This is one of many examples.

Which is why I said I can't recall any dramatic comebacks. I guess that is one then. You are right, I also don't like stat geeks. I don't think football is a sport that can be quantified like baseball. Which is what the Football Outsiders and KC Joyner attempt to do. Too many factors go into football compared to baseball. And I never said Eli was more clutch than Ben. I said it appears that way because Eli had more dramatic come from behind victories. I'm not a big Ben fan because of other reasons, but I really think you can't compare the two until this year when the Steelers apparently will hand Ben more control and open the passing game like the Giants did with Eli.

Shiver
08-22-2006, 02:42 PM
Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.

Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.


This year, supposedly, the Steelers are going to open up the passing game. After this year, we shall see if Ben can lead a offense like great Quarterbacks do, like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer.

For an entire season, not a few games.

Bingo. Like I said, this thread is useless, because all of them still have a lot to prove.

Number 10
08-22-2006, 02:46 PM
Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.

Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.


This year, supposedly, the Steelers are going to open up the passing game. After this year, we shall see if Ben can lead a offense like great Quarterbacks do, like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer.

For an entire season, not a few games.

Bingo. Like I said, this thread is useless, because all of them still have a lot to prove.

I'm glad someone can pick up on that concept.

eacantdraft
08-22-2006, 03:06 PM
Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.

Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.


This year, supposedly, the Steelers are going to open up the passing game. After this year, we shall see if Ben can lead a offense like great Quarterbacks do, like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer.

First of all Brady doesn't air it out often. 2nd of all, the other two QB's have 0 Super Bowl appearances between them. The object of football is to win the Super Bowl, not to see which QB puts up the most yards to please their fangirls.

08-22-2006, 03:08 PM
I'm still taking Eli, then Rivers, then Big Ben.

eacantdraft
08-22-2006, 03:10 PM
Jughead10: So basically you're full of crap and use nonsensical arguments like "I hate stat geeks".

Let's just use the example of the Chargers game. 4th quarter, 11 minutes left, the Steelers give up a touchdown and go down by two points.

1-10-PIT38 (11:33) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Ward to SD 29 for 33 yards (Q.Jammer).
1-10-SD29 (11:07) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Ward pushed ob at SD 16 for 13 yards (S.Davis).
1-10-SD16 (10:34) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Miller for 16 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Perfect. Clutch! But wait, the Chargers score another touchdown! The Steelers are down with 3 minutes to go.

Roethlisberger then has another perfect drive and puts them in FG range before getting his knee messed up. Reed makes the kick, Steelers win.

This is one of many examples.

Which is why I said I can't recall any dramatic comebacks. I guess that is one then. You are right, I also don't like stat geeks. I don't think football is a sport that can be quantified like baseball. Which is what the Football Outsiders and KC Joyner attempt to do. Too many factors go into football compared to baseball. And I never said Eli was more clutch than Ben. I said it appears that way because Eli had more dramatic come from behind victories. I'm not a big Ben fan because of other reasons, but I really think you can't compare the two until this year when the Steelers apparently will hand Ben more control and open the passing game like the Giants did with Eli.

And what reason are you not a Big Ben fan other than he's had more success than your guy?

Name all the come behind victories Eli has had. Ben also led comebacks against the Cowboys and Dolphins his rookie year. Last time I checked Ben was 5-1 in playoff games while Eli was 0-1 and hasn't led his team to even a FG in the playoffs (shut out).

Shiver
08-22-2006, 03:16 PM
Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.

Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.


This year, supposedly, the Steelers are going to open up the passing game. After this year, we shall see if Ben can lead a offense like great Quarterbacks do, like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer.

First of all Brady doesn't air it out often. 2nd of all, the other two QB's have 0 Super Bowl appearances between them. The object of football is to win the Super Bowl, not to see which QB puts up the most yards to please their fangirls.


Brady doesn't air it out. :lol: He lead the NFL in passing yards last year, and averages a shade under 3,800 yards in his last four seasons. His favorite Receiver is the open one. He is the best "assist" man in the NFL, he hasn't had an elite Receiver. But because he is the ultimate distrubutor, he doesn't need one.

By the way, the "Super Bowl" arguement is the most overrated in all of football. This is a TEAM SPORT. Let this sink in; TEAM SPORT. It is statistical fact, to win the Super Bowl you need an elite defense. A great Quarterback can only take a team so far. He needs to have the pieces around him to push him over the top. Especially when Roethlisberger stunk up the joint, in aformentioned "leading his team to a Super Bowl championship," give me a break.

If Peyton Manning had the Steelers defense, ever, he would've won several Super Bowls by now. It's not his fault, his defense has been weak his whole career. You are drinking the Homerade if you think Ben is any where close to Manning, Brady or Palmer, just because he's a "Super Bowl winner."
:roll:

08-22-2006, 03:19 PM
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury. Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play. Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

detknowitall
08-22-2006, 03:23 PM
On draft day I thought Big Ben was the most ready to handle a starting job, Im not saying he'll have teh best career but he was the best at the time. Eli has way more potential though.

Immaculate Tackle
08-22-2006, 04:31 PM
You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury.
Does Palmer play defense?
Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play.
That invalidates Roethlisberger's performance that day?
Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.
Never said he played well in the Superbowl.
The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game
It's obvious you didn't watch the playoff games, just the highlights on ESPN. Congrats.

M.O.T.H.
08-22-2006, 04:39 PM
Coming out of college I ranked them....

1. Rivers
2. Big Ben
3. Eli

I think Rivers will end up being the best of the big 3. I always felt Eli, was terribly overrated, he will be great one day, though.

Shiver
08-22-2006, 04:51 PM
Coming out of college I ranked them....

1. Rivers
2. Big Ben
3. Eli

I think Rivers will end up being the best of the big 3. I always felt Eli, was terribly overrated, he will be great one day, though.


Same for me. Although, I think Eli needs to show next year, the development all the fluff pieces on ESPN say he is going to make. Against that schedule, it will be interesting to say the least.

P-L
08-22-2006, 04:59 PM
Coming out of college, I liked them like this:

Rivers
Manning
Roethlisberger

I liked all three of them coming out, but I thought Roethlisberger got overrated as a prospect. I liked him but it's real hard for me to believe that anyone who watched all three of them play, thought he was the #1 QB that year.

Right now though, I'd take Manning. Just because Rivers is too much of a crap shoot. He's been in the league for two years and has thrown very little passes. Manning has proven he can QB on an NFL level. He still needs some work, mainly with accuracy, but I think I'd take him over the other two.

Smooth Criminal
08-22-2006, 05:06 PM
At this point you almost have to say Ben. He started very early due to injury and he has had a great career since. He has shown he can throw great passes and make huge plays out of nothing. He has been very good throwing on the run. People wirte off his successes every year saying his rookie yea was a fluke and he'd hit a sophmore slump and now they just blame it on our style of play and the good supporting cast he has. Ben won us football games and without him we wouldn't have made the playoffs this year let alone win a Superbowl.

I think Eli will be good, even great, as he has looked better each year and this will only be his third season. He looked very good early in the year last season and only lost his accuracy towards the end of the year when he was worn out. Being worn out is completely understandable for him considering it was his first season starting.

He could turn into a top tier QB and lead the Giants for years to come but he isn't as sure of as Ben is. Eli could remain an average QB for the rest of his career while we have already seen that Ben has what it takes to play at the level of the top QBs in the NFL.

I don't think we have seen enough of Rivers to pick him and I think we have all seen enough of Losman to not pick him.

Smooth Criminal
08-22-2006, 05:13 PM
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury. Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play. Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

Then you didn't watch those games. The first three games leading up to the Superbowl were all won through the air, esspecially in Indy and Denver. The passing game is what got us to the playoffs. The superbowl was won with passing aswell, even if stats don't reflect it.

And how can you honestly say the Steelers were lucky yo beat the Colts? You bring up the 'bad calls' in the Super bowl but you forget the one that the league actually said was a bad call in the Polamalu INT. If it isn't for that call the Steelers wi the game easy.

But regardless of if the team won the Superbowl, Ben has been the best of the 4 QBs over the last two years. Say what you want about our run game and line, he took a 6-10 team to 15-1 with almost the exact same team. Ben is a great QB to the people that watch him play everyweek. Its only the idiots that base their opinions off of highlight reels and stat books that think he isn't.

Smooth Criminal
08-22-2006, 05:19 PM
The thing I don't get is why do people refuse to believe in what Ben does. His rookie year he was written off as a 'fluke' and said to have a 'Sophmore slump'. Since that didn't happen people say his sucess is only because of his strong supporting cast.

Ben throws the ball the best out of any of these QBs. He is by far the most accurate from what we have seen. He makes big plays out of situations where he looks like he is going to get sacked. So what if he throws the ball 5-10 less times a game than some QBs? He looks great almost everytime he gets a chance to throw the ball.

Just out of curiosity, why do people hate Ben as a player?

Ravens1991
08-22-2006, 05:23 PM
i like Ben in college above any of the others. he is bigger, stronger, has a stronger arm, smarter, can throw on the run better, and more accurate than all of the others execpt maybe and i mean maybe Rivers. i was hoping the steelers didnt want Rivers like was 1st said and the chargers like Ben like was 1st said. i am very happy with who we got.

you can say that us winning is not all Ben and you are right this is a team game. no one has won in football all by their selfs, but a player can have a bigger % than others and Ben is a Large, Large part of why we won, because we have basically the same team except QB and we could not win and then Ben comes and we go 15-1(and he did not loss the 1) break all kinds of records and come within 1 game of back to back super bowls. the reason we didnt was Ben was hurt and tired and i know we could have beat both teams because we did back to back also stopping NE's win streak.

so bottom line is i much rather have Ben!


I believe that Eli would have had the same production if he was in pittsburgh, I think a lot of people could have won a superbowl passing the ball about 15 times a game w/ a great running game and defense. in his rookie season Vinny Testaverde fumbled the ball or somthing which led to the steelers getting a FG I believe then having Vinny throw a hail mary.

M.O.T.H.
08-22-2006, 05:25 PM
I think when it's all said and done, Rivers will be known as the most accurate and the best passer of them all.

For the record, I like Big Ben a lot. If I was starting a franchise and I had to pick between Ben and Eli, Big Ben would be my man.

Shiver
08-22-2006, 05:26 PM
The thing I don't get is why do people refuse to believe in what Ben does. His rookie year he was written off as a 'fluke' and said to have a 'Sophmore slump'. Since that didn't happen people say his sucess is only because of his strong supporting cast.

Ben throws the ball the best out of any of these QBs. He is by far the most accurate from what we have seen. He makes big plays out of situations where he looks like he is going to get sacked. So what if he throws the ball 5-10 less times a game than some QBs? He looks great almost everytime he gets a chance to throw the ball.

Just out of curiosity, why do people hate Ben as a player?


Ben will be running more no-huddle, more passing this year. How he does will be critical, and very telling as to how good he really is. He's a very efficient QB, no one is debating that. He still needs to step up to be considered a great QB.

Smooth Criminal
08-22-2006, 05:29 PM
i like Ben in college above any of the others. he is bigger, stronger, has a stronger arm, smarter, can throw on the run better, and more accurate than all of the others execpt maybe and i mean maybe Rivers. i was hoping the steelers didnt want Rivers like was 1st said and the chargers like Ben like was 1st said. i am very happy with who we got.

you can say that us winning is not all Ben and you are right this is a team game. no one has won in football all by their selfs, but a player can have a bigger % than others and Ben is a Large, Large part of why we won, because we have basically the same team except QB and we could not win and then Ben comes and we go 15-1(and he did not loss the 1) break all kinds of records and come within 1 game of back to back super bowls. the reason we didnt was Ben was hurt and tired and i know we could have beat both teams because we did back to back also stopping NE's win streak.

so bottom line is i much rather have Ben!


I believe that Eli would have had the same production if he was in pittsburgh, I think a lot of people could have won a superbowl passing the ball about 15 times a game w/ a great running game and defense. in his rookie season Vinny Testaverde fumbled the ball or somthing which led to the steelers getting a FG I believe then having Vinny throw a hail mary.

Eli wouldn't have done the same. He wasn't as ready to come in and start as Ben was. I don't know why but Ben was ready to step in and start immediatley which is wierd for QBs.

And I think you are refering to the Jets playoff game where the Steelers only won because of the Jets missing two field goals I believe. If your point is that Ben didn't play well in the playoffs his rookie year then you are right. In his first time starting a playoff game he didn't look good. He was underthrowing alot of guys and he wasn't very accurate. He blamed it on injuries to his thumb butreally I just think he was nervous. I mean who wouldn't be nervous starting in the playoffs in their rookie year.

But then again Eli didn't do such a great job his first playoff game this year either.

Smooth Criminal
08-22-2006, 05:33 PM
The thing I don't get is why do people refuse to believe in what Ben does. His rookie year he was written off as a 'fluke' and said to have a 'Sophmore slump'. Since that didn't happen people say his sucess is only because of his strong supporting cast.

Ben throws the ball the best out of any of these QBs. He is by far the most accurate from what we have seen. He makes big plays out of situations where he looks like he is going to get sacked. So what if he throws the ball 5-10 less times a game than some QBs? He looks great almost everytime he gets a chance to throw the ball.

Just out of curiosity, why do people hate Ben as a player?


Ben will be running more no-huddle, more passing this year. How he does will be critical, and very telling as to how good he really is. He's a very efficient QB, no one is debating that. He still needs to step up to be considered a great QB.

He looked good in it against Minny even with Wilson and Washington starting at WR. Sure it was only preseason but that was its test and it definately passed. I hope they don't over use it and ruin what we already have that works very well.

Immaculate Tackle
08-22-2006, 05:36 PM
It's amazing how people who hate Ben competely exaggerate things to make a point.

He only throws -23123 times a game!!! I COULD DO THAT!

His running backs average 600 yards per carry!!! RYAN LEAF COULD WIN WITH THAT!!

His defense is the greatest unit ever! THE 85 BEARS LOOK TERRIBLE COMPARED TO HIM!!!111

Temper your criticisms, people. Ben might have a good supporting cast, but he's very good in his own right. You'll see this year.

cunningham06
08-22-2006, 05:40 PM
Out of this group I would take Ben Roethlisberger without a doubt. Anyone who takes Eli over him is obviously blinded by how good his brother is. When will people learn, just because his brother is the best qb in football, that doesn't mean that he will be some day. Eli gets way too much love on this board.

Ravens1991
08-22-2006, 05:46 PM
i like Ben in college above any of the others. he is bigger, stronger, has a stronger arm, smarter, can throw on the run better, and more accurate than all of the others execpt maybe and i mean maybe Rivers. i was hoping the steelers didnt want Rivers like was 1st said and the chargers like Ben like was 1st said. i am very happy with who we got.

you can say that us winning is not all Ben and you are right this is a team game. no one has won in football all by their selfs, but a player can have a bigger % than others and Ben is a Large, Large part of why we won, because we have basically the same team except QB and we could not win and then Ben comes and we go 15-1(and he did not loss the 1) break all kinds of records and come within 1 game of back to back super bowls. the reason we didnt was Ben was hurt and tired and i know we could have beat both teams because we did back to back also stopping NE's win streak.

so bottom line is i much rather have Ben!


I believe that Eli would have had the same production if he was in pittsburgh, I think a lot of people could have won a superbowl passing the ball about 15 times a game w/ a great running game and defense. in his rookie season Vinny Testaverde fumbled the ball or somthing which led to the steelers getting a FG I believe then having Vinny throw a hail mary.

Eli wouldn't have done the same. He wasn't as ready to come in and start as Ben was. I don't know why but Ben was ready to step in and start immediatley which is wierd for QBs.

And I think you are refering to the Jets playoff game where the Steelers only won because of the Jets missing two field goals I believe. If your point is that Ben didn't play well in the playoffs his rookie year then you are right. In his first time starting a playoff game he didn't look good. He was underthrowing alot of guys and he wasn't very accurate. He blamed it on injuries to his thumb butreally I just think he was nervous. I mean who wouldn't be nervous starting in the playoffs in their rookie year.

But then again Eli didn't do such a great job his first playoff game this year either.

no I am preety sure against Dallas that season Vinny fumbled which gave the Steelers a field goal, either way I wouldnt mind having either Rivers, Big Ben or Eli, I hope Rivers get several rings eli gets none (I really didn't like how he demanded not playing for SD, I may have understood if he said his reasons why) and of course since I am a Ravens fan I hope Big Ben nevers wins a game again.

Smooth Criminal
08-22-2006, 05:49 PM
i like Ben in college above any of the others. he is bigger, stronger, has a stronger arm, smarter, can throw on the run better, and more accurate than all of the others execpt maybe and i mean maybe Rivers. i was hoping the steelers didnt want Rivers like was 1st said and the chargers like Ben like was 1st said. i am very happy with who we got.

you can say that us winning is not all Ben and you are right this is a team game. no one has won in football all by their selfs, but a player can have a bigger % than others and Ben is a Large, Large part of why we won, because we have basically the same team except QB and we could not win and then Ben comes and we go 15-1(and he did not loss the 1) break all kinds of records and come within 1 game of back to back super bowls. the reason we didnt was Ben was hurt and tired and i know we could have beat both teams because we did back to back also stopping NE's win streak.

so bottom line is i much rather have Ben!


I believe that Eli would have had the same production if he was in pittsburgh, I think a lot of people could have won a superbowl passing the ball about 15 times a game w/ a great running game and defense. in his rookie season Vinny Testaverde fumbled the ball or somthing which led to the steelers getting a FG I believe then having Vinny throw a hail mary.

Eli wouldn't have done the same. He wasn't as ready to come in and start as Ben was. I don't know why but Ben was ready to step in and start immediatley which is wierd for QBs.

And I think you are refering to the Jets playoff game where the Steelers only won because of the Jets missing two field goals I believe. If your point is that Ben didn't play well in the playoffs his rookie year then you are right. In his first time starting a playoff game he didn't look good. He was underthrowing alot of guys and he wasn't very accurate. He blamed it on injuries to his thumb butreally I just think he was nervous. I mean who wouldn't be nervous starting in the playoffs in their rookie year.

But then again Eli didn't do such a great job his first playoff game this year either.

no I am preety sure against Dallas that season Vinny fumbled which gave the Steelers a field goal, either way I wouldnt mind having either Rivers, Big Ben or Eli, I hope Rivers get several rings eli gets none (I really didn't like how he demanded not playing for SD, I may have understood if he said his reasons why) and of course since I am a Ravens fan I hope Big Ben nevers wins a game again.

I was thinking of a different instance than you so disregard there.

And I agree about Eli being a little whiny *****. He may be a good QB but he will always be a whiny ***** for how he handled himself about getting taken by San Diego.

M.O.T.H.
08-22-2006, 05:55 PM
The Chargers got the better end of the deal.

Smooth Criminal
08-22-2006, 06:44 PM
Way better. They have Rivers who has looked good in the preseason and they got an extra first round pick out of it.

08-22-2006, 06:46 PM
I'll take manning cuz Rivers hasnt seen any NFL action yet but i like him more

Shiver
08-22-2006, 06:48 PM
Way better. They have Rivers who has looked good in the preseason and they got an extra first round pick out of it.


Agreed, because I think Rivers will be a star. He has excellent intelligence, intagibles. Eli may never be an accurate QB, nor nearly as good as his brother. That first round pick also garnered Shawne Merriman. Big win for the Chargers.

M.O.T.H.
08-22-2006, 06:51 PM
Wasnt the pick they got out of it, one Shawne Merriman?

Shiver
08-22-2006, 07:00 PM
Rivers
Merriman
Kaeding


Awesome for the Chargers. :shock: 8)

08-22-2006, 07:09 PM
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury. Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play. Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

Then you didn't watch those games. The first three games leading up to the Superbowl were all won through the air, esspecially in Indy and Denver. The passing game is what got us to the playoffs. The superbowl was won with passing aswell, even if stats don't reflect it.

And how can you honestly say the Steelers were lucky yo beat the Colts? You bring up the 'bad calls' in the Super bowl but you forget the one that the league actually said was a bad call in the Polamalu INT. If it isn't for that call the Steelers wi the game easy.

But regardless of if the team won the Superbowl, Ben has been the best of the 4 QBs over the last two years. Say what you want about our run game and line, he took a 6-10 team to 15-1 with almost the exact same team. Ben is a great QB to the people that watch him play everyweek. Its only the idiots that base their opinions off of highlight reels and stat books that think he isn't.

I never said he was a bad QB. He's great at managing the game. He's been successful in Pittsburgh. But I highly doubt that if he were on the 3 three other teams, he'd be looking like JP Losman right now. If Rivers or Manning were on the Steelers, they'd be looking just as good, if not better than Roethlisberger right now. And he's been the best the last two years because of the supporting cast he has.

M.O.T.H.
08-22-2006, 07:12 PM
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury. Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play. Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

Then you didn't watch those games. The first three games leading up to the Superbowl were all won through the air, esspecially in Indy and Denver. The passing game is what got us to the playoffs. The superbowl was won with passing aswell, even if stats don't reflect it.

And how can you honestly say the Steelers were lucky yo beat the Colts? You bring up the 'bad calls' in the Super bowl but you forget the one that the league actually said was a bad call in the Polamalu INT. If it isn't for that call the Steelers wi the game easy.

But regardless of if the team won the Superbowl, Ben has been the best of the 4 QBs over the last two years. Say what you want about our run game and line, he took a 6-10 team to 15-1 with almost the exact same team. Ben is a great QB to the people that watch him play everyweek. Its only the idiots that base their opinions off of highlight reels and stat books that think he isn't.

I never said he was a bad QB. He's great at managing the game. He's been successful in Pittsburgh. But I highly doubt that if he were on the 3 three other teams, he'd be looking like JP Losman right now. If Rivers or Manning were on the Steelers, they'd be looking just as good, if not better than Roethlisberger right now. And he's been the best the last two years because of the supporting cast he has.

I dont get why people always say this. Eli was horribly inaccurate last year, he had a completion percentage of 52%, and the only reason it was that high was becuase, he had 6'5 plax to catch his over thrown passes. The fact is the Steelers need n accurate QB to run there offense and Big Ben fits the bill, Eli on the other hand does not.

08-22-2006, 07:16 PM
You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury.
Does Palmer play defense?
Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play.
That invalidates Roethlisberger's performance that day?
Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.
Never said he played well in the Superbowl.
The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game
It's obvious you didn't watch the playoff games, just the highlights on ESPN. Congrats.

The best defense is a good offense

Many people said Roethlisberger because he has a SB ring on his finger. The comments about the playoffs were made to show that Steelers were lucky to even be in the Superbowl, they weren't just this dominate team. And my unbiased opinion today, as it was then, that it was more of a fluke than anything else.

draftguru151
08-22-2006, 08:21 PM
I hate when homers try to argue their point and make themselves and their fans look like fools. That's all I'm gonna say. Oh, and...

Rivers and T.A. McClendon were probably my favorite players in college that year that didn't play for Miami. Rivers is so ridiculously accurate and is so good at leading his team. I never liked Big Ben and I still think he is overrated. Eli has such a great arm and is so smart I have him over Rivers. Rivers is going to shock some people this year.

Giantsfan1080
08-22-2006, 09:04 PM
Wasnt the pick they got out of it, one Shawne Merriman?

I'd rather have Osi over Merriman.

cunningham06
08-22-2006, 09:48 PM
You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury.
Does Palmer play defense?
Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play.
That invalidates Roethlisberger's performance that day?
Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.
Never said he played well in the Superbowl.
The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game
It's obvious you didn't watch the playoff games, just the highlights on ESPN. Congrats.

The best defense is a good offense

Many people said Roethlisberger because he has a SB ring on his finger. The comments about the playoffs were made to show that Steelers were lucky to even be in the Superbowl, they weren't just this dominate team. And my unbiased opinion today, as it was then, that it was more of a fluke than anything else.

Yea, it was just a fluke. :roll: Ben throwing 7 td's and only one interception must have been a fluke as well. He had a near perfect rating against Cinci where most qbs had terrible games. Meanwhile Eli in the playoffs threw 3 interceptions and had a qb rating of 35. Ben is more accurate than Eli, and doesn't make as many mental mistakes as Eli. Eli hasn't done anything extraordinary to be considered better than Big Ben at this point, so until he does Ben is the best qb out of that draft class.

draftguru151
08-22-2006, 09:56 PM
Wasnt the pick they got out of it, one Shawne Merriman?

I'd rather have Osi over Merriman.

Osi was almost in that deal. :shock: Imagine, the Giants fans would have to find something else to be huge homers over.

Jughead10
08-22-2006, 09:57 PM
Wasnt the pick they got out of it, one Shawne Merriman?

I'd rather have Osi over Merriman.

Osi was almost in that deal. :shock: Imagine, the Giants fans would have to find something else to be huge homers over.

The pick that was used for Snee was almost in that deal as well. I'd rather have Snee or Osi over Merriman so I'm happy with the deal.

M.O.T.H.
08-22-2006, 10:00 PM
You would rather have Chris Snee over Merriman???????????????WHAT!!!?!?!?!! That is one of the most homerish statements I have ever heard.

Shiver
08-22-2006, 10:00 PM
Yeah, Snee and Umenyiora are both very good.

Jughead10
08-22-2006, 10:02 PM
You would rather have Chris Snee over Merriman???????????????WHAT!!!?!?!?!! That is one of the most homerish statements I have ever heard.

I'm just not a fan of Merriman at all. Has nothing to do with being a homer. I have defended your boy Ware many times in past threads about who will be better. Ware will be the far superior players when all is said and done.

draftguru151
08-22-2006, 10:11 PM
I would take Osi and Snee over Merriman, and possibly Osi over Merriman, but that is a debate, but never Snee over Merriman. Snee is a great player but I don't think I would take a very good guard over a very good rush backer any day of the week.

fracas
08-22-2006, 10:30 PM
I think all 3 are going to be outstanding qb's within time and that each have their own good traits. While it might be too early to judge who's better at this stage in their careers, I'll go ahead and give the nod to Big Ben.

He may average less than 20 attempts a game, but that's only a reflection of the Steelers offensive philosophy. A typical Steelers first half is very balanced while the second half is run heavy. A perfect example was the Denver game. But don't get twisted, Ben can sling the rock. In his rookie year he was 2nd in the league in yards per attempt (second to that crazy Peyton Manning guy) and last season he was first. Quality over quantity. And maybe the media and us Steeler fans do overhype the guy. In fact I know we do. (You cant really blame us. O'Donnell, Tomczak, Graham, Stewart are just a few QB's who, uh, weren't exactly gamebreakers) But maybe some of that hype is derserving. But its going to be interesting watching all 3 in the prime of their careers.


And I def. agee Osi & Snee > Merriman

eacantdraft
08-23-2006, 08:09 AM
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury. Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play. Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

Then you didn't watch those games. The first three games leading up to the Superbowl were all won through the air, esspecially in Indy and Denver. The passing game is what got us to the playoffs. The superbowl was won with passing aswell, even if stats don't reflect it.

And how can you honestly say the Steelers were lucky yo beat the Colts? You bring up the 'bad calls' in the Super bowl but you forget the one that the league actually said was a bad call in the Polamalu INT. If it isn't for that call the Steelers wi the game easy.

But regardless of if the team won the Superbowl, Ben has been the best of the 4 QBs over the last two years. Say what you want about our run game and line, he took a 6-10 team to 15-1 with almost the exact same team. Ben is a great QB to the people that watch him play everyweek. Its only the idiots that base their opinions off of highlight reels and stat books that think he isn't.

I never said he was a bad QB. He's great at managing the game. He's been successful in Pittsburgh. But I highly doubt that if he were on the 3 three other teams, he'd be looking like JP Losman right now. If Rivers or Manning were on the Steelers, they'd be looking just as good, if not better than Roethlisberger right now. And he's been the best the last two years because of the supporting cast he has.

The Steelers dominated every team in the playoffs except Seattle last year. And they won against Seattle because Seattle was only dominatnt in the middle of the field rather than the red zone.

If any QB would look good with the Steelers, then why did they look horrible with Tommy Maddox in there and average with Charlie Batch. They are a completely different team with Ben in there.

The Giants have a very similar team to the Steelers offensively yet Ben has had better stats than Eli as far as efficiency goes (Yards are way overrated).

The Giants homers are a real embarrassment to real Giants and football fans if they think Merriman is no good now. Imagine if Merriman was lined up at LB with that great defensive line. The Giants would have had their best defense since the 80's and early 90's. The Giant homers just can't accept that their team got fleeced on the Manning deal.

Eli's refusing to go to San Diego shows what a lousy talent evaluator Daddy Manning is. If I was a QB I would love to go to a team with the best RB in football (sorry it's not Tikki Giant homers) and a city that may have the best weather in the country. And a city that doesn't have the media presence that New York has.

Jughead10
08-23-2006, 08:22 AM
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury. Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play. Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

Then you didn't watch those games. The first three games leading up to the Superbowl were all won through the air, esspecially in Indy and Denver. The passing game is what got us to the playoffs. The superbowl was won with passing aswell, even if stats don't reflect it.

And how can you honestly say the Steelers were lucky yo beat the Colts? You bring up the 'bad calls' in the Super bowl but you forget the one that the league actually said was a bad call in the Polamalu INT. If it isn't for that call the Steelers wi the game easy.

But regardless of if the team won the Superbowl, Ben has been the best of the 4 QBs over the last two years. Say what you want about our run game and line, he took a 6-10 team to 15-1 with almost the exact same team. Ben is a great QB to the people that watch him play everyweek. Its only the idiots that base their opinions off of highlight reels and stat books that think he isn't.

I never said he was a bad QB. He's great at managing the game. He's been successful in Pittsburgh. But I highly doubt that if he were on the 3 three other teams, he'd be looking like JP Losman right now. If Rivers or Manning were on the Steelers, they'd be looking just as good, if not better than Roethlisberger right now. And he's been the best the last two years because of the supporting cast he has.

The Steelers dominated every team in the playoffs except Seattle last year. And they won against Seattle because Seattle was only dominatnt in the middle of the field rather than the red zone.

If any QB would look good with the Steelers, then why did they look horrible with Tommy Maddox in there and average with Charlie Batch. They are a completely different team with Ben in there.

The Giants have a very similar team to the Steelers offensively yet Ben has had better stats than Eli as far as efficiency goes (Yards are way overrated).

The Giants homers are a real embarrassment to real Giants and football fans if they think Merriman is no good now. Imagine if Merriman was lined up at LB with that great defensive line. The Giants would have had their best defense since the 80's and early 90's. The Giant homers just can't accept that their team got fleeced on the Manning deal.

Eli's refusing to go to San Diego shows what a lousy talent evaluator Daddy Manning is. If I was a QB I would love to go to a team with the best RB in football (sorry it's not Tikki Giant homers) and a city that may have the best weather in the country. And a city that doesn't have the media presence that New York has.

It doesn't matter, because if Ben is a great as you think he is and the Giants took him instead of Manning, we would have had no shot at Merriman because we wouldn't have picked 12th. I'm not a fan of Merriman and it not because of how he was taken, I just think he is overrated. I have always said Ware is the better player and if you think Merriman would be as good outside of a 3-4 defense, then you are the crazy one.

scorchin
08-23-2006, 08:27 AM
Giants fans are such homers. Look at the facts.
Ben has a winning % that is out of this world, something like 23-5. Has 2 afc championship visits and a Superbowl.
Eli has ? until Eli can take his team deep in the playoffs and not put on that crybaby face in games, he isn't even near the same class as Ben. It'sd called leadership, Eli hasn't done what Ben has. As for Rivers, I thought this kid was going to be the best in the draft. He still could be, but needs to show what he can do this year. Losman, is just in a situation in Buffalo that right now, nobody could even look good.

Jughead10
08-23-2006, 08:38 AM
I'm always not going to like Ben probably and that will show in my posts. Nothing football related either, I just don't like him as a person because of certain things he does and says.

eacantdraft
08-23-2006, 08:59 AM
Giants fans are such homers. Look at the facts.
Ben has a winning % that is out of this world, something like 23-5. Has 2 afc championship visits and a Superbowl.
Eli has ? until Eli can take his team deep in the playoffs and not put on that crybaby face in games, he isn't even near the same class as Ben. It'sd called leadership, Eli hasn't done what Ben has. As for Rivers, I thought this kid was going to be the best in the draft. He still could be, but needs to show what he can do this year. Losman, is just in a situation in Buffalo that right now, nobody could even look good.

I always thought Rivers was overrated. Another great college QB who won't be a great pro QB. Didn't like his sidearm throwing motion.

Losman was suppose to have the most raw talent athletism of any QB of the 2004 draft. He just seem to have a little too much Ryan Leaf in him that turned scouts (and teammates) off.

steel man
08-23-2006, 09:01 AM
but there is nothing to dislike about Eli and his attitude. like him saying that he would not play for certains teams before he had even taken a snap in the NFL, IMO no one is that damn good and i think he needed to just shut the hell up and quit acting like you are a God and thank God for giving you a gift that will allow you to have a great life. if anyone has the wrong attitude and says the wrong things then it's Eli.

Jughead10
08-23-2006, 09:04 AM
but there is nothing to dislike about Eli and his attitude. like him saying that he would not play for certains teams before he had even taken a snap in the NFL, IMO no one is that damn good and i think he needed to just shut the hell up and quit acting like you are a God and thank God for giving you a gift that will allow you to have a great life. if anyone has the wrong attitude and says the wrong things then it's Eli.

San Diego is a terribly backwards run orginization. I'm suprised they got Cromartie into camp on time. Very cheap there. Did they sign one FA this offseson? While it was a BS move on Eli's part, I really can't blame him. If it wasn't for the absolutely beautiful weather, would anyone want to play in San Diego? In all honesty, I don't think San Diego wanted Eli anyway. They didn't want to pay #1 overall money which is why they made the trade. Then when Rivers and his agent said they wanted #1 money and lengthy holdout ensued.

eacantdraft
08-23-2006, 09:07 AM
I'm always not going to like Ben probably and that will show in my posts. Nothing football related either, I just don't like him as a person because of certain things he does and says.

Care to elaborate more on why you don't like him? You don't have to like a person to recognise what a great performer they are. I never really cared for Roger Clements as a person, but I can recognise him as the greatest pitcher of his generation. Only a homer is unable to do that.

Alot of people including me find the Mannings to be a spoiled family who don't justify the royalty status they give themselves. Yet I recognise Peyton as a top QB in every aspect except winning playoffs. I don't think any descendent of Archie Manning will ever make it to a Super Bowl. They choke on the silver spoon in their mouths every time in the playoffs.

Jughead10
08-23-2006, 09:14 AM
I'm always not going to like Ben probably and that will show in my posts. Nothing football related either, I just don't like him as a person because of certain things he does and says.

Care to elaborate more on why you don't like him? You don't have to like a person to recognise what a great performer they are. I never really cared for Roger Clements as a person, but I can recognise him as the greatest pitcher of his generation. Only a homer is unable to do that.

Alot of people including me find the Mannings to be a spoiled family who don't justify the royalty status they give themselves. Yet I recognise Peyton as a top QB in every aspect except winning playoffs. I don't think any descendent of Archie Manning will ever make it to a Super Bowl. They choke on the silver spoon in their mouths every time in the playoffs.

The reasons I don't like him probably can't be discussed on this forum because of the rules. However I can say that one reason is because of his history on blaming the few losses he has on injury. I can't stand that. I wanna put my hand through the TV when I see a CB come up limping because he gave up a big play. That is a big pet peeve of mine.

Me not liking him for personal reasons has nothing to do with me not recognizing him. I have said he is better than Manning now. Its not like Giants fans are the only ones saying these things about how he is in an ideal situation. This season will be interesting, to see if they really open up the Pittsburgh offense and give Ben more repsonsibility like most QBs in the NFL have.

People get on Eli for the interceptions, but Ben actually throws more INTs per pass attempt. Then again he also throws more TDs per pass attempt. Should be a fun year. A lot of question will be answered for the both of them.

Smooth Criminal
08-23-2006, 09:15 AM
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury. Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play. Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game

Then you didn't watch those games. The first three games leading up to the Superbowl were all won through the air, esspecially in Indy and Denver. The passing game is what got us to the playoffs. The superbowl was won with passing aswell, even if stats don't reflect it.

And how can you honestly say the Steelers were lucky yo beat the Colts? You bring up the 'bad calls' in the Super bowl but you forget the one that the league actually said was a bad call in the Polamalu INT. If it isn't for that call the Steelers wi the game easy.

But regardless of if the team won the Superbowl, Ben has been the best of the 4 QBs over the last two years. Say what you want about our run game and line, he took a 6-10 team to 15-1 with almost the exact same team. Ben is a great QB to the people that watch him play everyweek. Its only the idiots that base their opinions off of highlight reels and stat books that think he isn't.

I never said he was a bad QB. He's great at managing the game. He's been successful in Pittsburgh. But I highly doubt that if he were on the 3 three other teams, he'd be looking like JP Losman right now. If Rivers or Manning were on the Steelers, they'd be looking just as good, if not better than Roethlisberger right now. And he's been the best the last two years because of the supporting cast he has.

Manning would not have been able to lead the Steelers offense. Look at him when he came in the last 6 games of his rookie year. He was incredibly inaccurate and lo0oked lost in the offense.

And I don't know how you could say Rivers would have done better. That is just speculation. No one has even seen him play any real amount of time so saying he would have been better than Ben is just a dumb guess.

Smooth Criminal
08-23-2006, 09:19 AM
You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury.
Does Palmer play defense?
Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play.
That invalidates Roethlisberger's performance that day?
Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.
Never said he played well in the Superbowl.
The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game
It's obvious you didn't watch the playoff games, just the highlights on ESPN. Congrats.

The best defense is a good offense

Many people said Roethlisberger because he has a SB ring on his finger. The comments about the playoffs were made to show that Steelers were lucky to even be in the Superbowl, they weren't just this dominate team. And my unbiased opinion today, as it was then, that it was more of a fluke than anything else.

Everything the Steelers do is a fluke right?

I'm sure you were one of the people that said 15-1 was a fluke and Ben would have a "sophmore slump".

Now the playoffs and superbowl are a fluke aswell.

Whats it going to take for people to accept the Steelers as a good team?

Jughead10
08-23-2006, 09:22 AM
You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury.
Does Palmer play defense?
Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play.
That invalidates Roethlisberger's performance that day?
Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.
Never said he played well in the Superbowl.
The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game
It's obvious you didn't watch the playoff games, just the highlights on ESPN. Congrats.

The best defense is a good offense

Many people said Roethlisberger because he has a SB ring on his finger. The comments about the playoffs were made to show that Steelers were lucky to even be in the Superbowl, they weren't just this dominate team. And my unbiased opinion today, as it was then, that it was more of a fluke than anything else.

Everything the Steelers do is a fluke right?

I'm sure you were one of the people that said 15-1 was a fluke and Ben would have a "sophmore slump".

Now the playoffs and superbowl are a fluke aswell.

Whats it going to take for people to accept the Steelers as a good team?

Nothing. I think they are a great team. I think that is more of the argument concering Ben.

Smooth Criminal
08-23-2006, 09:25 AM
I'm always not going to like Ben probably and that will show in my posts. Nothing football related either, I just don't like him as a person because of certain things he does and says.

Atleast he didn't refuse to go to the team that drafted him.

Smooth Criminal
08-23-2006, 09:26 AM
You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury.
Does Palmer play defense?
Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play.
That invalidates Roethlisberger's performance that day?
Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.
Never said he played well in the Superbowl.
The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game
It's obvious you didn't watch the playoff games, just the highlights on ESPN. Congrats.

The best defense is a good offense

Many people said Roethlisberger because he has a SB ring on his finger. The comments about the playoffs were made to show that Steelers were lucky to even be in the Superbowl, they weren't just this dominate team. And my unbiased opinion today, as it was then, that it was more of a fluke than anything else.

Everything the Steelers do is a fluke right?

I'm sure you were one of the people that said 15-1 was a fluke and Ben would have a "sophmore slump".

Now the playoffs and superbowl are a fluke aswell.

Whats it going to take for people to accept the Steelers as a good team?

Nothing. I think they are a great team. I think that is more of the argument concering Ben.

15-1 was said to be a fluke last offseason

He just said the superbowl was a fluke.

That argument concerns more than just Ben.

Smooth Criminal
08-23-2006, 09:32 AM
I'm always not going to like Ben probably and that will show in my posts. Nothing football related either, I just don't like him as a person because of certain things he does and says.

Care to elaborate more on why you don't like him? You don't have to like a person to recognise what a great performer they are. I never really cared for Roger Clements as a person, but I can recognise him as the greatest pitcher of his generation. Only a homer is unable to do that.

Alot of people including me find the Mannings to be a spoiled family who don't justify the royalty status they give themselves. Yet I recognise Peyton as a top QB in every aspect except winning playoffs. I don't think any descendent of Archie Manning will ever make it to a Super Bowl. They choke on the silver spoon in their mouths every time in the playoffs.

This season will be interesting, to see if they really open up the Pittsburgh offense and give Ben more repsonsibility like most QBs in the NFL have.



I think he will. The no huddle offense got a tryout run in the preseason game. Ben looked very good in it even with all of the pressure they were getting on him with that great defensive line. Hopefully we'll see more of it this week against Phily.

Its not going to be something they run alot. I hope they do it once or twice a game to catch the defense off guard and keep them from subbing players. If they do it anymore than that it won't work aswell.

Jughead10
08-23-2006, 09:32 AM
You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury.
Does Palmer play defense?
Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play.
That invalidates Roethlisberger's performance that day?
Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.
Never said he played well in the Superbowl.
The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game
It's obvious you didn't watch the playoff games, just the highlights on ESPN. Congrats.

The best defense is a good offense

Many people said Roethlisberger because he has a SB ring on his finger. The comments about the playoffs were made to show that Steelers were lucky to even be in the Superbowl, they weren't just this dominate team. And my unbiased opinion today, as it was then, that it was more of a fluke than anything else.

Everything the Steelers do is a fluke right?

I'm sure you were one of the people that said 15-1 was a fluke and Ben would have a "sophmore slump".

Now the playoffs and superbowl are a fluke aswell.

Whats it going to take for people to accept the Steelers as a good team?

Nothing. I think they are a great team. I think that is more of the argument concering Ben.

15-1 was said to be a fluke last offseason

He just said the superbowl was a fluke.

That argument concerns more than just Ben.

Well he is wrong then. The Superbowl wasn't a fluke. What other team could win the Superbowl with their QB having a day like he did.

eacantdraft
08-23-2006, 09:42 AM
You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury.
Does Palmer play defense?
Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play.
That invalidates Roethlisberger's performance that day?
Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.
Never said he played well in the Superbowl.
The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game
It's obvious you didn't watch the playoff games, just the highlights on ESPN. Congrats.

The best defense is a good offense

Many people said Roethlisberger because he has a SB ring on his finger. The comments about the playoffs were made to show that Steelers were lucky to even be in the Superbowl, they weren't just this dominate team. And my unbiased opinion today, as it was then, that it was more of a fluke than anything else.

Everything the Steelers do is a fluke right?

I'm sure you were one of the people that said 15-1 was a fluke and Ben would have a "sophmore slump".

Now the playoffs and superbowl are a fluke aswell.

Whats it going to take for people to accept the Steelers as a good team?

Nothing. I think they are a great team. I think that is more of the argument concering Ben.

15-1 was said to be a fluke last offseason

He just said the superbowl was a fluke.

That argument concerns more than just Ben.

Well he is wrong then. The Superbowl wasn't a fluke. What other team could win the Superbowl with their QB having a day like he did.

Of course Ben scored a touchdown that doesn't show in his stats. Something more than what Eli did in his playoff performance last year.

Jughead10
08-23-2006, 09:46 AM
Of course Ben's touchdown shows in the stats. Rushing pops up in the bos score. Even with that touchdown, it was a pathetic showing. Eli was pathetic as well. The difference was Eli's team was also pathetic.

eacantdraft
08-23-2006, 09:56 AM
I'm always not going to like Ben probably and that will show in my posts. Nothing football related either, I just don't like him as a person because of certain things he does and says.

Care to elaborate more on why you don't like him? You don't have to like a person to recognise what a great performer they are. I never really cared for Roger Clements as a person, but I can recognise him as the greatest pitcher of his generation. Only a homer is unable to do that.

Alot of people including me find the Mannings to be a spoiled family who don't justify the royalty status they give themselves. Yet I recognise Peyton as a top QB in every aspect except winning playoffs. I don't think any descendent of Archie Manning will ever make it to a Super Bowl. They choke on the silver spoon in their mouths every time in the playoffs.

The reasons I don't like him probably can't be discussed on this forum because of the rules. However I can say that one reason is because of his history on blaming the few losses he has on injury. I can't stand that. I wanna put my hand through the TV when I see a CB come up limping because he gave up a big play. That is a big pet peeve of mine.

Me not liking him for personal reasons has nothing to do with me not recognizing him. I have said he is better than Manning now. Its not like Giants fans are the only ones saying these things about how he is in an ideal situation. This season will be interesting, to see if they really open up the Pittsburgh offense and give Ben more repsonsibility like most QBs in the NFL have.

People get on Eli for the interceptions, but Ben actually throws more INTs per pass attempt. Then again he also throws more TDs per pass attempt. Should be a fun year. A lot of question will be answered for the both of them.

The point of football is too win championships, not to see what yards the QB gets. This is the fantasy football mentality.

Jughead10
08-23-2006, 09:58 AM
I'm always not going to like Ben probably and that will show in my posts. Nothing football related either, I just don't like him as a person because of certain things he does and says.

Care to elaborate more on why you don't like him? You don't have to like a person to recognise what a great performer they are. I never really cared for Roger Clements as a person, but I can recognise him as the greatest pitcher of his generation. Only a homer is unable to do that.

Alot of people including me find the Mannings to be a spoiled family who don't justify the royalty status they give themselves. Yet I recognise Peyton as a top QB in every aspect except winning playoffs. I don't think any descendent of Archie Manning will ever make it to a Super Bowl. They choke on the silver spoon in their mouths every time in the playoffs.

The reasons I don't like him probably can't be discussed on this forum because of the rules. However I can say that one reason is because of his history on blaming the few losses he has on injury. I can't stand that. I wanna put my hand through the TV when I see a CB come up limping because he gave up a big play. That is a big pet peeve of mine.

Me not liking him for personal reasons has nothing to do with me not recognizing him. I have said he is better than Manning now. Its not like Giants fans are the only ones saying these things about how he is in an ideal situation. This season will be interesting, to see if they really open up the Pittsburgh offense and give Ben more repsonsibility like most QBs in the NFL have.

People get on Eli for the interceptions, but Ben actually throws more INTs per pass attempt. Then again he also throws more TDs per pass attempt. Should be a fun year. A lot of question will be answered for the both of them.

The point of football is too win championships, not to see what yards the QB gets. This is the fantasy football mentality.

Obviously that point of football is to win championships. I don't see anyone arguing who is better the Giants or Steelers. The Steelers are better. That is clear. What isn't so clear is which QB is better. Phil Simms has more rings than Dan Marino, but you would have a hard time finding someone who said Simms was better.

scorchin
08-23-2006, 10:28 AM
Simms and Marino, really have no place in this discussion. Simms has 2 rings and Marino, is just the greatest of all time. The point is, Eli hasn't done anything to warrant him as a qb in the same class as Big Ben. Plain and simple, Ben has a ring and alot better winning percentage. Just because he had a bad game in the superbowl, doesn't take away what he has done. He still scored a touchdown in the game, and if you watched the other playoff games, you cannot deny what kind of leadership this guy has. As for eli, he might want to actually show up when it comes time for the playoffs. Then again, his bro peyton doesn't know what that means either.

Jughead10
08-23-2006, 10:34 AM
Simms and Marino, really have no place in this discussion. Simms has 2 rings and Marino, is just the greatest of all time. The point is, Eli hasn't done anything to warrant him as a qb in the same class as Big Ben. Plain and simple, Ben has a ring and alot better winning percentage. Just because he had a bad game in the superbowl, doesn't take away what he has done. He still scored a touchdown in the game, and if you watched the other playoff games, you cannot deny what kind of leadership this guy has. As for eli, he might want to actually show up when it comes time for the playoffs. Then again, his bro peyton doesn't know what that means either.

Ben did play phenominal in the playoffs leading up to the Superbowl. It was great coaching too. Teams were waiting for the run like the Steelers always do and then they came out passing. Got a lead and then ran the ball down their face. However the year before Roethlisberger was awful in the playoffs and he was awful in the Superbowl too. So I wouldn't tout him as a big game QB quite yet.

Simms and Marino might have been bad examples but you get the point. I could have used Dilfer and McNabb to bring up the same point but those two were the first to pop in my head. We will see this year. Until the Steelers open up their offense more and let Ben do more things like most NFL QBs are expected to do, he will always be viewed as more of a caretaker than a great QB.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-23-2006, 10:44 AM
No point in dicussioning this now, wait until both careers are over..It's the logical approach to this debate, and who knows Losemen can pass everyone shutting everyone up. You never know, arguing like kids and calling each other names isn't going to solve anything. That's the problem when fans from different teams are all on one forum, it's impossible to actually get stuff to tlak about about without someone taking offense to some comment.

Smooth Criminal
08-23-2006, 10:44 AM
Until the Steelers open up their offense more and let Ben do more things like most NFL QBs are expected to do, he will always be viewed as more of a caretaker than a great QB.

That is just wrong though. Ben has shown he is a very accurate QB with great decision making. He can scamble and make big plays out of nothing. Look at his pass to Ward in the Superbowl when it was 3rd and 21 or something. Most QBs would not have made that play.

You have been giving Eli the benefit of the doubt saying he will have his breakout year in his 3rd season like most QBs do. Ben will be in his third year aswell. I expect to see him take over the offense alot more than he did in the last two years. We will still have a rush based offense, like the Giants, but we will be throwing the ball more early in the games like we did in the playoffs. Pass early and take the lead and run the clock out in the 2nd half.

Jughead10
08-23-2006, 10:48 AM
I wouldn't neccesarily call the Giants a rush based offense.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-23-2006, 10:53 AM
That is just wrong though. Ben has shown he is a very accurate QB with great decision making. He can scamble and make big plays out of nothing. Look at his pass to Ward in the Superbowl when it was 3rd and 21 or something. Most QBs would not have made that play.

You have been giving Eli the benefit of the doubt saying he will have his breakout year in his 3rd season like most QBs do. Ben will be in his third year aswell. I expect to see him take over the offense alot more than he did in the last two years. We will still have a rush based offense, like the Giants, but we will be throwing the ball more early in the games like we did in the playoffs. Pass early and take the lead and run the clock out in the 2nd half.


Ben's credit can stem from the fact your coaching staff, specifically Ken Whisenhunt is a genius and changed the offensive structure of the Steelers into what it is now, and factor in a sick DC, and things really came together.

We did something different, we threw Eli in the deepend of the pool and just let him try to swim himself, and things have worked out, and also drastically effected his progression as a qb. Both are different qbs, and both come from different systems, with different coaches, and thus very hard to compare in my opinion.

bigbluedefense
08-23-2006, 11:45 AM
This topic is tiring and old. Let's end it in a positive manner. I think we can all agree on this.

Each team got their guy, and each team is happy with their choice. Thats all.

As a Giants fan, Im happy we got Eli over the other 2, im sure Pittsburgh fans are extremely happy with Roethlisberger, and SD fans should be happy with Rivers. Everyone got their guy, no one is a loser here. Each will be great, and evaluating them as individuals in a team sport is always subject to debate and not entirely accurate. So theres no need for it. Especially after only 2 seasons. Thats just silly.

eacantdraft
08-23-2006, 11:59 AM
This topic is tiring and old. Let's end it in a positive manner. I think we can all agree on this.

Each team got their guy, and each team is happy with their choice. Thats all.

As a Giants fan, Im happy we got Eli over the other 2, im sure Pittsburgh fans are extremely happy with Roethlisberger, and SD fans should be happy with Rivers. Everyone got their guy, no one is a loser here. Each will be great, and evaluating them as individuals in a team sport is always subject to debate and not entirely accurate. So theres no need for it. Especially after only 2 seasons. Thats just silly.

As a Giant fan, I thought and still think the Giants overpayed for Eli in a QB heavy draft. To the Giants homers. What does Eli have (besides his last name) that makes loosing a shot at a Shawn Merriman, an Alex Barron, a David Pollack, or a Derrick Johnson? as well as other players with the other picks the Giants gave up?

bigbluedefense
08-23-2006, 12:08 PM
This topic is tiring and old. Let's end it in a positive manner. I think we can all agree on this.

Each team got their guy, and each team is happy with their choice. Thats all.

As a Giants fan, Im happy we got Eli over the other 2, im sure Pittsburgh fans are extremely happy with Roethlisberger, and SD fans should be happy with Rivers. Everyone got their guy, no one is a loser here. Each will be great, and evaluating them as individuals in a team sport is always subject to debate and not entirely accurate. So theres no need for it. Especially after only 2 seasons. Thats just silly.

As a Giant fan, I thought and still think the Giants overpayed for Eli in a QB heavy draft. To the Giants homers. What does Eli have (besides his last name) that makes loosing a shot at a Shawn Merriman, an Alex Barron, a David Pollack, or a Derrick Johnson? as well as other players with the other picks the Giants gave up?

I think its an absolute joke that you are rating quarterbacks 2 years into their careers. Thats like saying that Dan Marino was unquestionably better than Elway after their first 2 years...which we both know now is a ridiculous statement.

Football is a marathon, not a sprint. If players retired after 2 years, your topic of discussion would be worthwhile, but they don't, which is why I don't see the point in getting all worked up over nothing.

Smooth Criminal
08-23-2006, 12:19 PM
I can't see how you can say Manning is bad yet. He has had two years to prove himself and has, at times, looked very good. Last season was his first full year as a starter. You saw what happened at the end of Ben's first year of starting in the 2004 playoffs. His accuracy went down and so did his level of play. Same thing happened to Eli at the end of this year. Eli will do better this year, esspecially toward the end, because he will be ready to take on the full load.

Number 10
08-23-2006, 12:39 PM
I can't see how you can say Manning is bad yet. He has had two years to prove himself and has, at times, looked very good. Last season was his first full year as a starter. You saw what happened at the end of Ben's first year of starting in the 2004 playoffs. His accuracy went down and so did his level of play. Same thing happened to Eli at the end of this year. Eli will do better this year, esspecially toward the end, because he will be ready to take on the full load.

Great post. It's about time a Steelers fan said something rational about Manning.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-23-2006, 12:43 PM
I can't see how you can say Manning is bad yet. He has had two years to prove himself and has, at times, looked very good. Last season was his first full year as a starter. You saw what happened at the end of Ben's first year of starting in the 2004 playoffs. His accuracy went down and so did his level of play. Same thing happened to Eli at the end of this year. Eli will do better this year, esspecially toward the end, because he will be ready to take on the full load.


Good post, and I am kinda curious, because the guy sounds like Lockhart from the Giants.com MB.

Smooth Criminal
08-23-2006, 12:47 PM
I can't see how you can say Manning is bad yet. He has had two years to prove himself and has, at times, looked very good. Last season was his first full year as a starter. You saw what happened at the end of Ben's first year of starting in the 2004 playoffs. His accuracy went down and so did his level of play. Same thing happened to Eli at the end of this year. Eli will do better this year, esspecially toward the end, because he will be ready to take on the full load.

Great post. It's about time a Steelers fan said something rational about Manning.

No one with any knowledge about football thinks that Manning is a bad QB. It usually take time for a young QB to become a good player. Ben is the exception not the rule.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-23-2006, 12:53 PM
Just simple with any qb, wait until it's all said and done, but also everyone be mindful of the system, and coaching and even surrouding players. It's hard to compare apples and oranges.

Immaculate Tackle
08-23-2006, 01:16 PM
I don't think Manning is a bad QB, just that the burden of proof is on Eli to show that he's the best QB of the draft, not the other way around.

08-23-2006, 01:21 PM
I wouldn't neccesarily call the Giants a rush based offense.

Your offense seems to revolve around your RB though.

Jughead10
08-23-2006, 01:25 PM
I wouldn't neccesarily call the Giants a rush based offense.

Your offense seems to revolve around your RB though.

It is. But the statement was that our offense is rush based like the Steelers. When I don't think you can compare the offenses at all.

Last year we ran the ball 461 times and passed 557 times. The Steelers ran the ball 499 times and passed 375 times.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-23-2006, 02:15 PM
Your offense seems to revolve around your RB though.

In the sense it opens up our passing game, than yea, but we do throw the ball alot as well, and when we do it's distributed well to all our guys.

08-23-2006, 03:34 PM
Your offense seems to revolve around your RB though.

In the sense it opens up our passing game, than yea, but we do throw the ball alot as well, and when we do it's distributed well to all our guys.

Im sayin Tiki is the center of your offense

NY+Giants=NYG
08-23-2006, 03:39 PM
Im sayin Tiki is the center of your offense


Yeah that makes sense, but than again that can be said for alot of offenses with an good to sick running back. Mind you that means Portis, Tiki, LT, Shaun Alexander, LJ and many more can all say the same thing. But I agree he is the cog that opens everything else. Hopefully this year though we can rely on other sources so that tiki doesnt have to the burden of carrying the offense.

CC.SD
08-24-2006, 01:12 AM
This topic is tiring and old. Let's end it in a positive manner. I think we can all agree on this.

Each team got their guy, and each team is happy with their choice. Thats all.

As a Giants fan, Im happy we got Eli over the other 2, im sure Pittsburgh fans are extremely happy with Roethlisberger, and SD fans should be happy with Rivers. Everyone got their guy, no one is a loser here. Each will be great, and evaluating them as individuals in a team sport is always subject to debate and not entirely accurate. So theres no need for it. Especially after only 2 seasons. Thats just silly.

The only difference is that NY gave up Shawne Merriman, Nate Kaeding, and Roman Oben to choose Eli as opposed to taking the guy who just won the Superbowl, or the guy who will put up numbers comparable to, if not better than Manning Jr.

I'm biased though, I freely admit. If Rivers starts piling up Ws and Lights Out builds on a DROY season, Ernie Accorsi will get jabbed in the nuts everytime he goes out in public.

yodabear
08-24-2006, 01:43 AM
JP Losman is leading the Bills to the superbowl.

Number 10
08-24-2006, 06:16 AM
JP Losman is leading the Bills to the superbowl.


this year?