MMA Discussion Thread - SPOILERS!

[Ward]

Im starting to wonder about you man. I don't dislike you or anything but it seems like everything you say in this thread is completely false.

Roy's BJJ is far from world class, I hope you just confused him with another fighter. Roy is much more of a wrestler than a jiu-jitsu fighter. He only has 4 sub victories in his career, all by RNC the most basic of all subs. None of those were in a legit league or within the last 3 years. He fought Kimbo, the worst BJJ guy on the show by far and didnt even try a sub. He just worked into a crucifux and rained down weak punches.

Roy has a real shot to win it, hes tough with a good chin, well rounded & a lot of experience. I don't see him putting on very entertaining fights though, I do hope someone beats him. I REALLY hope big Marcus doesnt get hurt, Im more excited to see him fight than anyone else. I think hes got more of a shot than some give him credit for, he looks like he dominates people in training. All that emotion, seems like he would be a scary guy come fight day.

If you have a black belt in BJJ (which Roy does), and if you've competed in the ADCC (which Roy has) then you should be considered to have world class BJJ skills.

[jared]

Im starting to wonder about you man. I don't dislike you or anything but it seems like everything you say in this thread is completely false.

Roy's BJJ is far from world class, I hope you just confused him with another fighter. Roy is much more of a wrestler than a jiu-jitsu fighter. He only has 4 sub victories in his career, all by RNC the most basic of all subs. None of those were in a legit league or within the last 3 years.

Whaaat?!?! He's a BJJ black belt under Renzo fricking Gracie. He's out grappled top fighters like Mir and Monson. He's easily among the top tier of heavyweight submission grapplers in MMA.

BJJ (in MMA) isn't just about subs. It's about achieving and keeping a dominant position that allows you to whoop your opponent's ass (Kimbo fight). It doesn't matter how the victories or the subs come. Demian Maia has won most of his fights off of RNCs or triangle chokes. You don't have to throw flying gogoplatas to be a world class BJJ guy.

[E-Man]

I'm not going to spoil anything about tonight's episode, but I'll say that Rashad might be an oracle based on next week's previews. lol

[Cicero]

**** I forgot to watch it again!

[E-Man]

^It'll be on again in 10 minutes.

[Ravens1991]

Machida Shogun, anyone think Shogun has a shot? I really dont think so

[E-Man]

Shogun has a shot, but it's a small one. He's got some things to bring to the table, but Machida is probably going to just let him make mistakes en route to a TKO.

[A Perfect Score]

Machida Shogun, anyone think Shogun has a shot? I really dont think so

I do. At one point, Shogun was in the discussion as the best P4P fighter in the world. I know he has had his down moments, but I dont think it would be wise for Machida to underestimate Shogun. I am really looking forward to the fight.

[fenikz]

I got Shogun via 2nd round TKO, I really think Mcahida's striking has become overrated

[djp]

I got Shogun via 2nd round TKO, I really think Mcahida's striking has become overrated

You've been on Shogun's nuts for months and months now

[fenikz]

try years and years

[raiderz4life]

I've been saying this the whole time....UFC Shogun has got to go...if he wants to win he needs PRIDE Shogun Rua to cometo the fight.

[locseti]

machita is going to be so hard to beat, what flaws are there to exploit? shogun is not the same fighter he once was, the injuries have taken their toll. On a side note, this has been the lamest season of tuf ever. so wack.

[Rosebud]

Machida Shogun, anyone think Shogun has a shot? I really dont think so

Sure shogun could suddenly become the insane attacking fighter he was in pride. That said Shogun has said he wants to try and be patient and basically out machida machida, which just isn't going to happen. Personally I can't imagine Shogun actually winning.

[MaxV]

I also think Shogun has a shot. Anybody with that kind of power has a puncher's chance.

[Ravens1991]

machita is going to be so hard to beat, what flaws are there to exploit? shogun is not the same fighter he once was, the injuries have taken their toll. On a side note, this has been the lamest season of tuf ever. so wack.

I know Machida is very good but this guy isnt a perfect fighter, look at the Sokodjuo fight. Sokodjuo outstruck him and he got 2 takedowns. Machida is just so well rounded he was able to sweep him immediately.

[MidwayMonster31]

If Rua comes in wildly, Machida will take him out, before he even knows what hit him. What Shogun has to do is control Machida on the ground and in the clinch, because I don't think Shogun will be able to win a striking match, even with superior power.

[E-Man]

Even if Shogun was in 2005 PRIDE form, he plays right into Machida's hands. His style of striking opens him up to the type of counters that Machida would easily exploit. He used to do wild kung fu cinema style kicks in his fights. Machida would eat him alive if he does that.

[fenikz]

If Rua comes in wildly, Machida will take him out, before he even knows what hit him. What Shogun has to do is control Machida on the ground and in the clinch, because I don't think Shogun will be able to win a striking match, even with superior power.

I'm 100% sure that Shogun wants to keep this standing and a striking match

[Rosebud]

Even if Shogun was in 2005 PRIDE form, he plays right into Machida's hands. His style of striking opens him up to the type of counters that Machida would easily exploit. He used to do wild kung fu cinema style kicks in his fights. Machida would eat him alive if he does that.

I agree, although I do think catching lyoto with something crazy and pouncing on him would be Shogun's only shot, that said you are completely right that most likely going for that crazy kick would play right into lyoto's hands, which is why I love watch lyoto fight so much.

I'm 100% sure that Shogun wants to keep this standing and a striking match

Which will let lyoto just pick shogun apart until he gases.

[A Perfect Score]

I know Machida is a good fighter, maybe even great, but damn guys, get off his jock a little bit. The guy isnt the end all and be all of fighters. He is far from flawless, and I really wouldnt be surprised to see Shogun catch him with something.

[Rosebud]

I know Machida is a good fighter, maybe even great, but damn guys, get off his jock a little bit. The guy isnt the end all and be all of fighters. He is far from flawless, and I really wouldnt be surprised to see Shogun catch him with something.

I think he's he's the only guy who could take Anderson Silva, if that helps you understand how highly I think of him, you just can't find a better counter striker than lyoto and his D is on par with the spiders, add to that that he too is a legit Noguera BJJ black belt and is great with takedowns and yeah he's easily one of the top 4 fighters in the world and IMO Fedor is the only guy who I think beats Lyoto clearly.

Seriously, what part of his game isn't a strength? The only way to make him a better fighter would be to give him Rampgage's power, but with how precise he is and how many times he'll hit an opponent while denying him the chance to hit lyoto back that doesn't really matter much.

[A Perfect Score]

I think he's he's the only guy who could take Anderson Silva, if that helps you understand how highly I think of him, you just can't find a better counter striker than lyoto and his D is on par with the spiders, add to that that he too is a legit Noguera BJJ black belt and is great with takedowns and yeah he's easily one of the top 4 fighters in the world and IMO Fedor is the only guy who I think beats Lyoto clearly.

Seriously, what part of his game isn't a strength? The only way to make him a better fighter would be to give him Rampgage's power, but with how precise he is and how many times he'll hit an opponent while denying him the chance to hit lyoto back that doesn't really matter much.

I do find him to be very passive. I understand that is his style, but I also think a bit more aggression in fights would serve him well. He does have striking power, Id like to see him take a shot every now and then. I mean obviously alot of that is for entertainment purposes and I do understand that he is undefeated and I appreciate that. That said, I do think Shogun stands a legit chance to win if he comes out and is aggressive he stands a good chance to win this fight.

[Rosebud]

I do find him to be very passive. I understand that is his style, but I also think a bit more aggression in fights would serve him well. He does have striking power, Id like to see him take a shot every now and then. I mean obviously alot of that is for entertainment purposes and I do understand that he is undefeated and I appreciate that. That said, I do think Shogun stands a legit chance to win if he comes out and is aggressive he stands a good chance to win this fight.

Nah man, it's very important for lyoto to get a feel for how his opponent will come after him so that he can figure out how best to counter him. If lyoto came out more aggressively his counter's wouldn't be as effective and he'd leave himself exposed too much. I love Lyoto's style and it's because he lets his opponent show lyoto how to beat him. If shogun comes out all guns blazing lyoto is going to avoid, figure out how to counter and then take shogun apart while also letting shogun get himself closer to gassing.

[raiderz4life]

Well...coming out in a crazy blaze is probably Shogun's only hope. I seriously don't think Shogun can win if he doesn't have some luck on his side and catches Lyoto with a good hit. He has to pressure Lyoto and get him going backwards so Lyoto won't have the time to counter.

That being said...that's hoping he ends it in the 1st. If this fight goes past the 1st period....i say its Game Over for Shogun

[E-Man]

I know Machida is a good fighter, maybe even great, but damn guys, get off his jock a little bit. The guy isnt the end all and be all of fighters. He is far from flawless, and I really wouldnt be surprised to see Shogun catch him with something.

I agree that Machida's hype is getting overblown. He hasn't even defended his title yet, but some people are thinking he's the all time GOAT. With that being said, styles make fights, and he's very good at what he does. To beat Machida you need to get into range good enough without him hitting you and moving out of range quickly. I don't think Shogun can do that. He's good at bringing a variety of strikes, but he's not the type to destroy a good counter striker like Machida.

[RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES]

I know Machida is a good fighter, maybe even great, but damn guys, get off his jock a little bit. The guy isnt the end all and be all of fighters. He is far from flawless, and I really wouldnt be surprised to see Shogun catch him with something.

Machida is a great fighter. What makes him so great is his discipline. He has a game plan and he don't get away from it. You say he is far from flawless but what are his flaws? I might be mistaken but I am pretty sure in Machidas fight against Rashad they said Rashad was the first person to hit Machida with a power punch since 1996???????? If that is true how can you say he is FAR from flawless. I know everyone has flaws but Machida has very few and no one has exploited any of them yet.

[ccB]

Can one of you geniuses explain to me how 15-0 is not flawless?

Not to mention the guy has literally taken 0 damage in any of his UFC fights, and save for the desperation triangle Tito threw up, he has never been in a dangerous position in ANY of his fights.

I refuse to believe that he is anything short of amazing until someone proves it to me.

[SeanTaylorRIP]

I still Rashad Evans is the 2nd best LHW in the world and the fact that Machida made him look like a b*tch has to make you respect Machida as the best in his class far in away.

[Rosebud]

Well...coming out in a crazy blaze is probably Shogun's only hope. I seriously don't think Shogun can win if he doesn't have some luck on his side and catches Lyoto with a good hit. He has to pressure Lyoto and get him going backwards so Lyoto won't have the time to counter.

That being said...that's hoping he ends it in the 1st. If this fight goes past the 1st period....i say its Game Over for Shogun

Actually the more I think about this fight the more I think Shogun really needs to be working almost exclusively on his stamina so that he can try and sucker lyoto in with a very basic gameplan before go at him with some crazy **** to try and catch him.

[UKfan]

Lyoto by double kick in my avatar.

Lyoto <3

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Actually the more I think about this fight the more I think Shogun really needs to be working almost exclusively on his stamina so that he can try and sucker lyoto in with a very basic gameplan before go at him with some crazy **** to try and catch him.

If this was pride and he could corner and start kicking the **** out of Lyoto I'd give him a chance, but I just don't see it.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Lyoto by double kick in my avatar.

Lyoto <3

That would be a switch kick.

[Rosebud]

If this was pride and he could corner and start kicking the **** out of Lyoto I'd give him a chance, but I just don't see it.

Me neither, but I'm just trying to figure out how Shogun could win it.

[josh07039]

I think that some people are forgetting just how good shogun is when he is on his game. The question is, will he ever be at that level again? Whether it is the knee injuries or no longer fighting in an organization with no drug testing(Not accusing, just saying it is a possibility, Shogun has not looked the same since he has come to the UFC. It would be ridiculous to assume that a win over Chuck holds the weight that it once did. Therefore, it is really tough to know what Shogun will be fighting this weekend. I think Shogun at his best has a shot against Machida, but I still would go with Machida. Shogun's standup is based on being wild, aggressive, and unpredictable which seems to play right into Machida's hands. As you all know, Machida is all about waiting on his opponent to make a mistake and then countering, which seems to fit against Shogun's all offense style. In Pride, Shogun was able to overwhelm opponents with non stop attacks, but I think Machida will keep his wits, move away with his great quickness/footwork and look for counters.

Edit: I think for Shogun to win, he may want to try mixing in takedowns and working with his GNP and BJJ from the top.

[SwagU]

I gotta go with Machida in this fight he has looked really dominate since his first arrival in the UFC against Sokoudjou. Shogun is not back, for people to think that KO against Lidell was the return of the old dominate pride fighter has to crazy. To be honest sure he knocked out Chuck but at this point of Chucks career who hasnt, Shogun really was not that all impressive during the fight although I hear he was still feeling some effects from knee surgery. None the less for Shogun to win the fight he has to try to find a weakness in Machida's game, hard to do when he has really looked incredible but I think the best tape to look at would be the Tito fight I saw a little bit of weakness to the ground and pound, Shogun's best shot is there if he wants to win this fight.

[ccB]

If this was the Pride Shogun I'd give him way more of a chance, hell I might favor him, but let's get real for a second, the guy barely beat a gassed out Mark Coleman, if he comes into this fight in that shape/mindset he will get picked apart.

[Cicero]

Tito is at +125 interesting...

[E-Man]

http://www.spike.com/video/sneak-peek-fighting/3274278

Damn Rampage. He really just threw his fighters under the bus here.

[ccB]

Main Card Bouts:
-Lyoto Machida (15-0; #1 Light Heavyweight)* vs. Mauricio "Shogun" Rua (18-3; #5 Light Heavyweight)*
-Cain Velasquez (6-0; #8 Heavyweight)* vs. Ben Rothwell (30-6)
-Josh Neer (25-8-1) vs. Gleison Tibau (17-7)
-Joe Stevenson (30-10) vs. Spencer Fisher (23-4)
-Anthony Johnson (7-2) vs. Yoshiyuki Yoshida (11-3)

Preliminary Bouts:
-Yushin Okami (23-4) vs. Chael Sonnen (23-10-1)
-Pat Barry (4-1) vs. Antoni Hardonk (8-5)
-Jorge Rivera (16-7) vs. Rob Kimmons (22-4)
-Ryan Bader (9-0) vs. Eric Schafer (11-3-2)
-Kyle Kingsberry (7-2) vs. Razak Al-Hassan (6-1)
-Chase Gormley (6-0) vs. Stefan Struve (17-3)


Is anyone else just completely unexcited about this card? There is literally one meaningful match on the whole card which is Shogun v Machida and even that is not something I am looking forward to because I give Shogun a 5% chance of winning.

Cain v Big Ben would be a good opening fight for a PPV broadcast but as a co-main event it's just an underwhelming fight, especially when you think that this fight should of been Carwin v Cain which actually would of meant something.

Josh Neer v Gleison Tibau, another meaningless fight w/ two guys coming off losses, psh, Should be an undercard fight.

Stevenson v Fisher, this is PPV quality I suppose, would be a solid Spike TV main event, but again it's another meaningless fight. Fisher is on a nice little winning streak but even with a win I can't see them putting him against Penn. So even with a win he's still atleast a win or two away from being a contender.

Okami v Sonnen atleast has title implications if Okami wins but I think this is a horribly boring match up and doubt it makes the PPV broadcast.

The way I see it there are two trully exciting match ups, Yoshida v Rumble, and Barry v Hardonk (which will be aired for free on spike tv) I mean even the undercard sucks, Jorge Rivera will never be more than a gatekeeper, Kingsberry, and Al-Hassan aren't even UFC caliber fighters, Gormley and Struve are decent HW prospects but thats about it, I guess if you are a Darth Bader fan you can get excited to see his fight on Spike Tv before the PPV begins.

[MetSox17]

http://www.spike.com/video/sneak-peek-fighting/3274278

Damn Rampage. He really just threw his fighters under the bus here.

He has been doing it the past few weeks. I actually really despised Rashad Evans before the show, just thought he was an extremely arrogant guy, but i think that Machida fight where he got KTFO put some sense into the guy, he actually seems very likeable.

All that said, he's right about Rampage just selling out his team. He's a bad coach and he runs his mouth way too much. Bad evaluator of talent as well cause every guy that has been put in the ring has gotten pwned by Rashad's guy.

It's gonna get interesting when Rashad's guys have to go train with Rampage.

[ccB]

To be fair, Rashad was allowed to bring in Greg Jackson to help "draft" his team, and it was clear from the get-go that he had the better team. I doubt Rampage knew who any of these guys were beforehand.

Also, Rampage has let it be known he is not a coach, nor does he like coaching, and will never be a coach once he retires. He is on TUF because he is a personality, he took the show for the paycheck and the exposure that comes a long with it. It bugs me that people act like it's Rampages fault these guys are losing, just because he's trained with them for a couple weeks, a couple weeks training is not going to turn you into a completely different fighter. This season is lopsided because of the initial selection process not because of coaching technique. All the guys who have lost so far, would of lost in the same match ups regardless of who was coaching them.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Main Card Bouts:
-Lyoto Machida (15-0; #1 Light Heavyweight)* vs. Mauricio "Shogun" Rua (18-3; #5 Light Heavyweight)*
-Cain Velasquez (6-0; #8 Heavyweight)* vs. Ben Rothwell (30-6)
-Josh Neer (25-8-1) vs. Gleison Tibau (17-7)
-Joe Stevenson (30-10) vs. Spencer Fisher (23-4)
-Anthony Johnson (7-2) vs. Yoshiyuki Yoshida (11-3)

Preliminary Bouts:
-Yushin Okami (23-4) vs. Chael Sonnen (23-10-1)
-Pat Barry (4-1) vs. Antoni Hardonk (8-5)
-Jorge Rivera (16-7) vs. Rob Kimmons (22-4)
-Ryan Bader (9-0) vs. Eric Schafer (11-3-2)
-Kyle Kingsberry (7-2) vs. Razak Al-Hassan (6-1)
-Chase Gormley (6-0) vs. Stefan Struve (17-3)


Is anyone else just completely unexcited about this card? There is literally one meaningful match on the whole card which is Shogun v Machida and even that is not something I am looking forward to because I give Shogun a 5% chance of winning.

Cain v Big Ben would be a good opening fight for a PPV broadcast but as a co-main event it's just an underwhelming fight, especially when you think that this fight should of been Carwin v Cain which actually would of meant something.

Josh Neer v Gleison Tibau, another meaningless fight w/ two guys coming off losses, psh, Should be an undercard fight.

Stevenson v Fisher, this is PPV quality I suppose, would be a solid Spike TV main event, but again it's another meaningless fight. Fisher is on a nice little winning streak but even with a win I can't see them putting him against Penn. So even with a win he's still atleast a win or two away from being a contender.

Okami v Sonnen atleast has title implications if Okami wins but I think this is a horribly boring match up and doubt it makes the PPV broadcast.

The way I see it there are two trully exciting match ups, Yoshida v Rumble, and Barry v Hardonk (which will be aired for free on spike tv) I mean even the undercard sucks, Jorge Rivera will never be more than a gatekeeper, Kingsberry, and Al-Hassan aren't even UFC caliber fighters, Gormley and Struve are decent HW prospects but thats about it, I guess if you are a Darth Bader fan you can get excited to see his fight on Spike Tv before the PPV begins.

Machida by Dominance Standing
Cain by Rothwell being ******
Tibau by being better
Stevenson via Greg Jackson Magic.
Okami via circling and punching
Rumble via Insane KO
Barry via Leg Kicks
Struve by being my dark horse HW prospect
Bader by mathcmaking.

[Ravens1991]

I agree, I think Rumble Yoshida will be the most exciting fight of the night.

[SeanTaylorRIP]

I agree, I think Rumble Yoshida will be the most exciting fight of the night.

Eh I don't know. I think 75% Rumble gets a quick KO but IMO if Yoshida withstands the early fury if he gets rumble to the ground with his Judo he could easily catch Rumble in a sub. I just don't see this fight going past the first either way. It will be interesting to see Rumble's weight tonight. At the start of his training camp he was at an astonishing 55 pounds overweight. He was at 225. 2 weeks ago he was down to 190. He does have the frame of a 185 pound fighter or IMO he could naturally fight at 205, but even if it's a struggle to cut weight he gains such a huge advantage over his competition by fighting at Welterweight.

[MetSox17]

To be fair, Rashad was allowed to bring in Greg Jackson to help "draft" his team, and it was clear from the get-go that he had the better team. I doubt Rampage knew who any of these guys were beforehand.

Also, Rampage has let it be known he is not a coach, nor does he like coaching, and will never be a coach once he retires. He is on TUF because he is a personality, he took the show for the paycheck and the exposure that comes a long with it. It bugs me that people act like it's Rampages fault these guys are losing, just because he's trained with them for a couple weeks, a couple weeks training is not going to turn you into a completely different fighter. This season is lopsided because of the initial selection process not because of coaching technique. All the guys who have lost so far, would of lost in the same match ups regardless of who was coaching them.

I agree, and yes i've noticed that he just took it for the check and exposure, but these are the lives of people that are trying to make a career out of this sport. His job is to help put them in the best position to succeed, and he has failed to do so.

What do you tell the guys that got picked on his team? "Sorry, if you lose it ain't my fault, i'm not here to coach you."

wth?

There has been a few close fights that could have gone either way. This last fight with titties and the other kid was a lot closer than many of the other fights. Dude was getting prepped for a triangle for about a whole minute before schoon actually sunk it in, and even then, it wasn't done properly because he was still punching for about a minute and change before he schoon finally put him away.

I'm just saying that he's doing his fighters a disservice by being there. They're there to try and make a life and they're getting thrown out there to fend for themselves.

[RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES]

I agree, and yes i've noticed that he just took it for the check and exposure, but these are the lives of people that are trying to make a career out of this sport. His job is to help put them in the best position to succeed, and he has failed to do so.

What do you tell the guys that got picked on his team? "Sorry, if you lose it ain't my fault, i'm not here to coach you."

wth?

There has been a few close fights that could have gone either way. This last fight with titties and the other kid was a lot closer than many of the other fights. Dude was getting prepped for a triangle for about a whole minute before schoon actually sunk it in, and even then, it wasn't done properly because he was still punching for about a minute and change before he schoon finally put him away.

I'm just saying that he's doing his fighters a disservice by being there. They're there to try and make a life and they're getting thrown out there to fend for themselves.

How is this Rampages fault? The UFC wants him there so they pay him mad money to do it. He says to everyone that he isn't a coach and that is why he brought some coaches to do it for him. He is a fighter and he acts like one. If the UFC wants to see these fighters full potential they wouldn't get Rampage but they are worried about ratings and Rampage brings that with his personality. Why should Rampage care about these people? He wants them to win for his own bragging rights not for there success. He was the same way last time and him being on it again just shows the UFC doesn't care to much about who wins it.

[MetSox17]

Well that's a damn shame then. A lot of people actually enjoy watching the show to see what the talent pool develops.

[ccB]

Eh I don't know. I think 75% Rumble gets a quick KO but IMO if Yoshida withstands the early fury if he gets rumble to the ground with his Judo he could easily catch Rumble in a sub. I just don't see this fight going past the first either way. It will be interesting to see Rumble's weight tonight. At the start of his training camp he was at an astonishing 55 pounds overweight. He was at 225. 2 weeks ago he was down to 190. He does have the frame of a 185 pound fighter or IMO he could naturally fight at 205, but even if it's a struggle to cut weight he gains such a huge advantage over his competition by fighting at Welterweight.

Yoshida is very very underrated, mostly because all people know him for is getting KTFO by Koscheck but he is a well rounded fighter, who is very technical, and has very brutal GNP to go with his arsenal of submissions. Rumble is by far the more physically imposing fighter, and far more explosive standing but IMO Yoshida is just as if not more explosive on the ground. It's the classic grappler v striker match up, the outcome depends greatly on where the figth take place, if Yoshida can successfully take down Rumble I think he easily wins, though taking him down will be easier said that done because as you outlined, Rumble is a HUGE WW. Another thing to factor into the discussion is Yoshida has been training at Team Jackson in Albequerque which is a smart decision on his part, you cannot beat that camp, and not to mention there isn't a better corner man in the game. I'd really like to know which fighters were in camp with Yoshida, I doubt GSP was around but if Nate Marquardt was in the camp he probably weighs around the same as Rumble will weigh on fight night so rolling with someone of that caliber will help to prepare Yoshida.

I see the fight ending quick as well, and I also favor Rumble going in because the size advantage will be huge and I think Yoshida will have a hard time taking him down BUT I do think this is a very fair and interesting match up, it really could go either way.

[ccB]

I agree, and yes i've noticed that he just took it for the check and exposure, but these are the lives of people that are trying to make a career out of this sport. His job is to help put them in the best position to succeed, and he has failed to do so.

What do you tell the guys that got picked on his team? "Sorry, if you lose it ain't my fault, i'm not here to coach you."

wth?

There has been a few close fights that could have gone either way. This last fight with titties and the other kid was a lot closer than many of the other fights. Dude was getting prepped for a triangle for about a whole minute before schoon actually sunk it in, and even then, it wasn't done properly because he was still punching for about a minute and change before he schoon finally put him away.

I'm just saying that he's doing his fighters a disservice by being there. They're there to try and make a life and they're getting thrown out there to fend for themselves.

It sounds like your gripe is with Dana and not Rampage, if he wanted these guys to get the best coaching he would of brought in Ricard Liborio/Greg Jackson/Randy Couture/Bob Cook/Matt Hume etc to train these guys. It's all about the marketability of Rampage though, he brings something other than fighting to the show and Dana has sacrificed having a good coach for a good entertainer. Not to mention the whole goal of this season was to hype the Jackson v Evans fight, I guarantee that was a more important goal to Dana than gaining another HW prospect for the UFC.

Regardless if he's there or not, all the guys who have lost so far would of lost with any other coach behind them, the match ups have been that overwhelmingly lopsided. If Roy Nelson was on Rampages team he still would of easily handled Kimbo, if Deminco was on Rashads team, the 2 weeks of good coaching wouldn't of helped him beat Schaub, it takes more than a couple weeks to narrow the margin that separates the skill level of those two fighters.

Take Wes Sims for example, that guy has been in MMA for quite some time now, has been in teh UFC before, and he trains with Mark Coleman and the Hammer House and has for a very long time, So are you telling me that in a few weeks Rampage could of somehow more readied him for that fight? What information could he have given Wes that Wes probably hasn't heard from Marc Coleman in the last 10 years? Hell if Rampage spent every waking moment on the show with that guy training coaching him at a more efficient level it wouldn't make a difference, he still would of loss, because frankly he is not that good, and neither is 95% of rampages team.

[ccB]

Well that's a damn shame then. A lot of people actually enjoy watching the show to see what the talent pool develops.

The show is directed more towards casual fans who need the reality tv aspect involved in order to be interested in the actual fights. Only die hards care about the show from an actual prospect point of view, and for the most part the best prospects never get put on the show they get invited into the UFC on their own.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

The show is directed more towards casual fans who need the reality tv aspect involved in order to be interested in the actual fights. Only die hards care about the show from an actual prospect point of view, and for the most part the best prospects never get put on the show they get invited into the UFC on their own.

Plus, its basically a 6 week training camp. Nobody is really 'learning' a ton, and most of these guys are fishing for a major camp anyway.

[ccB]

Plus, its basically a 6 week training camp. Nobody is really 'learning' a ton, and most of these guys are fishing for a major camp anyway.

Exactly, Schaub and McSweeney train with Team Jackson, are you telling me that if they got selected by Rampage he would have even the tinyest bit of knowledge to provide them with that Greg Jaxckson already hasn't? Rampage mind as well be a mascot, these training sessions are very basic MMA training, mostly to keep them conditioned, most these guys aren't going to be adding many tools to their toolbag.

[E-Man]

I'm sorry but it's clear that Rampage is the worst coach ever on TUF. He was the one that picked the fighters, and you don't go 0-6 without sucking something fierce. He never gives the fighters good advice in the cage, and he seems content to just chill and make fun of everyone instead of coaching. The Greg Jackson and editing excuse doesn't work. Greg Jackson was only there for evaluations, and Rashad seems like he has good control of things instead of handing everything off to his coaches. The editing thing from Rampage is a tired excuse because you can't edit him not going into the cage after his fighters lose. You can't edit him picking Kimbo as his first pick, and him yelling such profound advice as "get up." Editing didn't make him say "titties" as if the word wasn't going out of style. If he's so adamant about being a fighter instead of a coach, then why sign up in the first place? It's not like Dana put a gun to his head and made him do it. He knew what TUF was all about, vowed to never do it again after TUF 7, yet he still signed the contract.:confused:

As for picks for tomorrow I got:

Machida by 2nd round TKO.
Cain by 3rd round TKO.
Neer by decision.
Stevenson by decision.
Johnson by first round KO of Yoshida. I like Yoshida a lot, so this is tough to call for me. Even after Rumble coming in 6 pounds overweight, I still gotta feeling that he's going to get another first round KO before gassing horribly and losing.

[SeanTaylorRIP]

We'll all give him a pass this time because he's coming off injury but damn Rumble coming in 6 pounds over the limit is not good. If he keeps struggling with cutting down weight 185 might have to be a real decision he'll have to look at.

[fenikz]

he supposedly was cutting from 220, how he even cut 44 pounds amazes me

Both Machida & Shogun coming in under weight tells me they are going for stamina

[josh07039]

The fact that Johnson missed weight by so much really makes me lose a little bit of interest in his fight. If he truly has gotten to a point where he can't make 170, his fight doesn't really have big time stakes in terms of his status as a contender. At 185 he isn't nearly as exciting a contender to me. I mean he would still be a pretty big guy even at 185 and he is still a freak athlete, but I just don't like his chances in matchups against the contenders at mw nearly as much as at ww.

[nepg]

Considering a bunch of guys on Rashad's team are from Greg Jackson's camp, they just about have their full, normal fighting camp with them whenever they have a fight on the show. And Greg Jackson's been doing a lot more than Rashad has in terms of getting guys ready for fights. And anything Rashad says is just repeating what Greg Jackson has told him, anyway.

Rampage is not a coach, but I thought he did a nice job with Zak Jensen. Somehow, possibly by pure dumb luck, the way Rampage deals with fighters/people worked for Jensen. He was stupid and got too comfortable in a ******* triangle, but he should have won that fight, and that's because of the coaching he's received since he's been on the show.

[nepg]

I wouldn't worry about Rumble. Yes, he'll eventually move to 185 and beyond, but I think this was just a case of him biting off more than he could chew by coming into camp at 220 and trying to cut water weight from probably ~190. Just about every fighter makes a weight-cutting mistake every once in awhile. Just hope he learns his lesson and comes into camp more prepared to get down to 170 more easily next time.

[nepg]

Shogun v. Machida is one of the most anticipated match-ups by hardcore fans in a very long time. Before I go into analysis, I'd like to illustrate my disposition.
1. I think Shogun's cardio is fine.
2. I think Shogun is mostly "back".
3. I like Shogun, I'm a fan.
4. Machida is a Top 4 fighter in the world (w/Fedor, Spider, Mousasi)
5. Machida and Mousasi are my two favorite fighters.

I just don't see, and haven't since the fight was made, how Shogun can win this. "Pride Shogun" or not, his style and skills just don't match-up well against Machida. Shogun has a better pedigree on the ground (though Machida's no slouch), but because of Machida's sumo & judo, this fight isn't going to the ground unless Machida wants it to. Shogun just can't take him down (only high level judo/sambo guys can get Machida down).

Shogun is one of the best strikers in MMA, but his aggressive MT play right into what Machida wants to do with his karate. Shogun's not going to out-point him, and I don't see him getting close enough to do any damage. Shogun has said he's been working really hard on a gameplan for Machida, and I think he'll be very patient tonight, but I just don't see him being able to do anything.

I think the only way to beat Machida is to go for takedowns you don't intend to get to make him stuff them. Then when he's in his stuffing stance, come back up and start striking. That's the only opening I've ever seen.

[Rosebud]

Shogun v. Machida is one of the most anticipated match-ups by hardcore fans in a very long time. Before I go into analysis, I'd like to illustrate my disposition.
1. I think Shogun's cardio is fine.
2. I think Shogun is mostly "back".
3. I like Shogun, I'm a fan.
4. Machida is a Top 4 fighter in the world (w/Fedor, Spider, Mousasi)
5. Machida and Mousasi are my two favorite fighters.

I just don't see, and haven't since the fight was made, how Shogun can win this. "Pride Shogun" or not, his style and skills just don't match-up well against Machida. Shogun has a better pedigree on the ground (though Machida's no slouch), but because of Machida's sumo & judo, this fight isn't going to the ground unless Machida wants it to. Shogun just can't take him down (only high level judo/sambo guys can get Machida down).

Shogun is one of the best strikers in MMA, but his aggressive MT play right into what Machida wants to do with his karate. Shogun's not going to out-point him, and I don't see him getting close enough to do any damage. Shogun has said he's been working really hard on a gameplan for Machida, and I think he'll be very patient tonight, but I just don't see him being able to do anything.

I think the only way to beat Machida is to go for takedowns you don't intend to get to make him stuff them. Then when he's in his stuffing stance, come back up and start striking. That's the only opening I've ever seen.

I've been thinking that Shogun needs to sucker lyoto in with a pretty bland stand up style and then have something lyoto won't see coming prepared for when lyoto moves in and then if he gets luck and catches lyoto to pounce.

[slightlyaraiderfan]

the prelims are on spike, is this new or has it been going on?

[MidwayMonster31]

the prelims are on spike, is this new or has it been going on?They started it pretty recently. It was either in UFC 103 or 102 when Spike first started playing the prelims. I think it was 103.

[ccB]

Wooooooooo Pat Barry!

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Wooooooooo Pat Barry!

I was about to post that your boy just won too, damn.

Beastly straight rights from Barry.

[ccB]

I was about to post that your boy just won too, damn.

Beastly straight rights from Barry.

I love me some Pat Barry, I'd like to see a win from Struve here as well.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

My boy Stefan Struve up now.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

If Struve can learn to use his reach better on the feet he'll be an absolute monster.

[ccB]

Skyscraper with the win! Nice night for HW prospects so far.

[ccB]

Anyone else getting the feeling that these prelim fights are more exciting than the actual main card events?

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Anyone else getting the feeling that these prelim fights are more exciting than the actual main card events?

We haven't seen Okami fight Sonnen yet.

[ccB]

We haven't seen Okami fight Sonnen yet.

****, I forgot about that. Maybe Yushin Okami comes out and is aggressive and uses all the great talent that he possesses....hell who am I trying to kid.

[josh07039]

can someone pm a stream please?

[themaninblack]

can someone pm a stream please?

me too(ten char)

[Cicero]

Let's get this started!

[ccB]

Rumble v Yoshida, my #1 most anticipated match up of the night (less so now that it's likely Rumble won't be at WW long :( )

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Rumble v Yoshida, my #1 most anticipated match up of the night (less so now that it's likely Rumble won't be at WW long :( )

Yoshida by Cardio Fueled Guillotine.

[ccB]

Yoshida by Cardio Fueled Guillotine.

That would make me happy :)

I think Rumble KO's him in the first and then moves to 185

[Cicero]

Damn well that was fast.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Yoshida by Cardio Fueled Guillotine.

So much for that.

[ccB]

Bam I was right on the button! Too bad, the size advantage was too much to for Yoshida.

[ccB]

Who's ready for Joe Stevenson to control the ground and win this fight easily?

Please Spencer, Knock him clean, Please?

[josh07039]

Joe stevenson is my new favorite fighter. I got a feeling that tonights gonna be a good good night.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Who's ready for Joe Stevenson to control the ground and win this fight easily?

Please Spencer, Knock him clean, Please?

Johnny Cash wills him to victory.

[Cicero]

Fisher barely survived there at the end.

[Cicero]

Brutal GnP damn those elbows...

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Spencer Fischer was at Milletich and can't handle a wrestler? Pathetic.

[ccB]

These fights have been so predictable so far... :/

[Tampa 2 4 life]

These fights have been so predictable so far... :/

Rothwell by flying scissor heel hook,

[ccB]

Rothwell by flying scissor heel hook,

That might be the most shocking thing that could happen, well that or Shogun taking a 5 round unanimous decision over Machida...

[josh07039]

Oh god, Okami. Wake me in 15 minutes.

[ccB]

Oh god, Okami v Sonnen, get ready to be put to sleep faster than after taking some Nyquiil ;)

[DHVF]

I'm sad, I can't find a working stream... :(

[jballa838]

DHVF. check PMs

[RufusMcDaniel]

DHVF. check PMs

Would you mind sending that my way as well?

[Cicero]

I read the spoiler before that fight because I didn't think we were gonna see it.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Zuffa's long national nightmare is over.

[jballa838]

there you go.

[ccB]

My first missed prediction >.<

[ccB]

Zuffa's long national nightmare is over.

Somewhere, Dana White is very happy that he does not have to try and market Okami v Silva. He will soon have the same issue present itself if Sonnen wins another fight or two -_-

[ccB]

Oh wow another fight I really don't give a **** about!


Lets go Gleison!

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Somewhere, Dana White is very happy that he does not have to try and market Okami v Silva. He will soon have the same issue present itself if Sonnen wins another fight or two -_-

I like Sonnen, but I can't see him beating Maia(He already lost once)/Hendo/Marquardt/Belfort.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Oh wow another fight I really don't give a **** about!


Lets go Gleison!

When Neer gets his teeth knocked out how many 'Dentist' jokes will we see?

[jballa838]

neither of them made weight. tight.

[ccB]

When Neer gets his teeth knocked out how many 'Dentist' jokes will we see?

"Well Joe, it looks like The denist needs to see a Dentist! hyuck hyuck hyuck "*creepy stare*" - Mike Goldberg

[ccB]

neither of them made weight. tight.

Yeah it was only a matter of a pound or two, and a half pound in Neers case, but nowhere near as bad as Rumbles 6 pounds over.

[josh07039]

Wow, Tibau is doing well in a fight I really don't care about. Awesome.

[Cicero]

This fight is really boring.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Welcome to Strikeforce, Neer.

[jballa838]

this guy looks mean :(

[slightlyaraiderfan]

hopefully we get 2 good bouts after those 2 fights...

[Cicero]

Rothwell looks like he can barely stand up.

[slightlyaraiderfan]

vamos mexico

[josh07039]

Rothwell is a tough ******* dude

[MaxV]

Perhaps an early stop. But I happen to agree with the ref with this one. He was taking way too much punishment.

[LTgiants]

that was just domination

[josh07039]

Perhaps an early stop. But I happen to agree with the ref with this one. He was taking way too much punishment.It wasn't early it was just the stupid time. He couldve stopped it in the first but let him get through it and had a quick trigger in the second. In my mind, it was actually kinda late.

[ccB]

Cain Velasquez is such a beast

[josh07039]

Cain Velasquez is such a beastThe question now is who does he go up against next? Does he go against Big Nog in a contender match? Has he jumped ahead of nog because of his big hype? Does the UFC bring him along very slowly and have him go up against one more guy before being dubbed a fully fledged contender?

I would most like to see him go up against Nog tosee if Nog's comeback is for real and if Cain can handle a big time proven guy.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Machida win upcoming.

[ccB]

Here we go baby, this fight is going to answer a lot of questions...

[ccB]

The question now is who does he go up against next? Does he go against Big Nog in a contender match? Has he jumped ahead of nog because of his big hype? Does the UFC bring him along very slowly and have him go up against one more guy before being dubbed a fully fledged contender?

I would most like to see him go up against Nog tosee if Nog's comeback is for real and if Cain can handle a big time proven guy.

Dana said on spike tv that with a win tonight Cain would be considered a title contender, so I'd assume Carwin/Lesnar is in his future?

[ccB]

please be a war please be a war please be a war please be a war

[MaxV]

Here we go.

GO SHOGUN!

[josh07039]

please be a war please be a war please be a war please be a warIt needs to be a hell of a war to make up for some of the crap tonight.

[jballa838]

my stream ended right as it was about to start.

[Cicero]

Wow this is an awesome fight so far.

[MaxV]

This isn't a great fight as far as action but it is an AWESOME fight as far as anticipation.

[MaxV]

Without giving up anything, I'll just say one thing:

You NEVER count out GREATNESS!!!!

[Tampa 2 4 life]

I have it 48-47 Machida.

[MaxV]

This better not be a "split decision".

This fight had a clear winner

[Cicero]

What just happened?

[MaxV]

THIS IS BS!!!!!!!

This is COMPLETE BS!!!!

[josh07039]

ROBBERY. The guy got destroyed by leg kicks. He was tentative the entire fight and really lost 4 out of 5 rounds.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

THIS IS BS!!!!!!!

This is COMPLETE BS!!!!

No it's not. Machida landed a straight nearly everytime Shogun landed a kick.

[iBoldin]

My Facebook just got jizzed on with Shogun hate. What happened? Judging?

[Cicero]

One of the worst decisions well maybe the worst decision I have ever seen,

[MaxV]

No it's not. Machida landed a straight nearly everytime Shogun landed a kick.

Shogun landed A LOT MORE.

Period!

[comahan]

no no no no no no no no no no!

that was shoguns fight dammit

[josh07039]

No it's not. Machida landed a straight nearly everytime Shogun landed a kick.Yeah Machida landed some counters with many of his kicks, but Shogun was the aggressor the entire time and completely wore him down. Shogun was never in trouble and Lyoto was consistently getting hurt.

[themaninblack]

God Damnit!!!!

[ccB]

I reserve my opinion until I can see the fight again.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Easton-Beebe was a robbery. This is not a robbery.

[ccB]

Easton-Beebe was a robbery. This is not a robbery.

What a fail that was, I was actually thinking about going to that fight, so glad I didn't.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Yeah Machida landed some counters with many of his kicks, but Shogun was the aggressor the entire time and completely wore him down. Shogun was never in trouble and Lyoto was consistently getting hurt.

If aggressiveness is a category Machida should lose every time, right?

[josh07039]

I reserve my opinion until I can see the fight again.My initial opinion was Shogun easily won really easily, thinking with a few minutes between now and the decision it was a bit of closer, but I agree I need to see it again to fully see all of Machida's counters.

[LTgiants]

my stream died and i missed the entire 1st but from 2-5 i thought shogun had it.

[MaxV]

If aggressiveness is a category Machida should lose every time, right?

That's not the point.

Even if you count Machida's 2 big flurries as rounds won by him, it's still 2 out of 5 Rounds.

Machida did NOT win 3 rounds in this fight. NO EFFIN' WAY!

[comahan]

Honestly, I thought it was 4-1 Shogun, I thought he had it easily.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

That's not the point.

Even if you count Machida's 2 big flurries as rounds won by him, it's still 2 out of 5 Rounds.

Machida did NOT win 3 rounds in this fight. NO EFFIN' WAY!

1st round was close, Machida won 2-3, Shogun won 4-5.

I think Machida did enough round 1, period.

[MaxV]

All I can say is REMATCH.

This needs to happen.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

I'll probably rewatch the fight minus commentary.

"WHAT A LEG KICK"

Shogun gets hit with a left falls back

SHOGUN IS DOMINATING.

[djp]

Perhaps this is a changing of the guard in the way the UFC is going to score fights, rewarding Machida for being more technical and careful with his strikes.

I honest to god thought it was a draw. I couldn't pick a winner.

[MaxV]

Let me repeat what I've said earlier in this thread:

You NEVER count out GREATNESS!

People forgot just what Shogun is capable of.

[raiderz4life]

Well like they say: To be a Champion you must convincingly beat the Champion.

In close matches its probable that the current Champ will have the advantage

[LTgiants]

Well like they say: To be a Champion you must convincingly beat the Champion.

In close matches its probable that the current Champ will have the advantage

ya but the question is did the the champ do enough to keep the title i don't think he did

[Bosanac01]

It's bull, but if Shogun wanted to be the champion he should have KO'd him. That's the way it goes. Machida KO'd evans to win the title, he's not gonna lose it to decision.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

It's bull, but if Shogun wanted to be the champion he should have KO'd him. That's the way it goes. Machida KO'd evans to win the title, he's not gonna lose it to decision.

If Shogun wanted to be champion he shouldn't have been punched in the face so much.

[Ward]

None of the 20 people in the room I was in (many of whom are amateur fighters and BJJ purple belts+) thought that Machida won that fight. I may watch it again via torrent, but my initial reaction is that it was a terrible decision. The only way right now I can see it going that way is if they didn't want to change the belt on a decision. I can understand that. But with what I remember of the fight, and how I felt at the time, Shogun dominated. And I <3 Machida! Shogun had the best game plan we've seen thus far - he took away Machida's legs and Machida became a completely different fighter.

[MidwayMonster31]

If Shogun wanted to be champion he shouldn't have been punched in the face so much.I think that's what did it for the judges. Shogun landed a lot of good leg kicks and body kicks, but barely landed anything on Machida's face.
I thought Shogun won the fight, but I also need a closer look on Machida's counters, and also my stream was lagging like hell, so I missed some things.

[Cicero]

Their rematch should be until someone quits or gets knocked out so we don't have to deal with this ******** again.

[josh07039]

I think the concept that to become the champ one needs to completely demolish the champ is ridiculous. To become the champ you need to win the fight. That whole idea that the champ should get special treatment in title defenses is ridiculous. With that said, I'm not sure that the judges were thinking that way. I think it is possible that they were caught up in the Machida mystique and they didn't believe their own eyes, instead merely believing that machida was performing in a way that wasn't able to be analyzed in the same way other styles are.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

I think the concept that to become the champ one needs to completely demolish the champ is ridiculous. To become the champ you need to win the fight. That whole idea that the champ should get special treatment in title defenses is ridiculous. With that said, I'm not sure that the judges were thinking that way. I think it is possible that they were caught up in the Machida mystique and they didn't believe their own eyes, instead merely believing that machida was performing in a way that wasn't able to be analyzed in the same way other styles are.

Josh Gross just rewatched the fight without commentary and gave Machida rounds 1-3.

http://twitter.com/SI_JoshGross

This was not a robbery folks. R4 was close and much slower than I originally thought. Shogun slight edge w/a couple solid kicks. 10-9 Rua.
2 minutes ago from web
Combo by Machida at the end of R3 is the difference. 10-9. I can see how judges -- w/o hearing commentary -- gave 1-3 to Machida.
9 minutes ago from web
Competitive R2. I had Machida doing enough to earn it 10-9.
15 minutes ago from web
Re-watching fight w/o sound. R1 was tight as can be. Can score it either way. Have no problem with Machida or Shogun winning that round.

Bottom would be the first one.

[comahan]

Josh Gross just rewatched the fight without commentary and gave Machida rounds 1-3.

http://twitter.com/SI_JoshGross



Bottom would be the first one.

Well if HE SAYS IT.. then gosh..

[BlindSite]

Rua landed more blows but he attempted something like five take downs and failed on all five attempts, all of which awards points to Machida. Every time there was an exchange for a kick, Machida was landing punches, which at the end of the day might as well be 0 points to either guy. Machida used the octagon better as well and that's more points, he showed more aggression using good knees and good combinations as well.

Rua was a good fighter and it was as close as scored, but although Rua didn't lose this fight, Machida didn't lose it either and you cannot become a champion because you kicked a guy in the legs as many times as he punched you in the face when you fail in multiple take down attempts and cannot get the better of exchanges.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Well if HE SAYS IT.. then gosh..

I'm just pissed at the people screaming bloody murder when this was a close fight. It could have gone either way, I scored it 48-47 Machida.

Edit: And in Japan where you score on the whole fight I'd give it to Shogun, but using the 10-9 system I give it to Machida.

[MiWolves]

can someone pm me a site to watch this..

[E-Man]

Damn I hate I missed this. I went to a haunted house with some friends and now I hear that it was a close fight. I'll be watching this one tomorrow for certain.

And I hear my boy Cain did work! Don't give him Brock yet, but he's a damn good prospect. I say give him another test, but who else is out there for him? Gonzaga is, but he's fighting JDS. Mir is fighting Kongo, and Randy dropped down to 205 again. Nog might be a real good test. His ground game would really let us see how far Cain has come.

[Cicero]

Who's watching DREAM?

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Who's watching DREAM?

Me, but no spoilers.

[raiderz4life]

We should really bring in the other MMA promotions such as Strikeforce and WEC and Dream....all this UFC...let's spread the love

[Rosebud]

I've definitely got Lyoto winning the second and third rounds and I think he won the first one as well although that was very very close, this is before factoring all of the stuffed takedown attempts. A really close fight that's tough to call but I think Lyoto definitely deserved that decision.

[fenikz]

Shogun won 5 Rounds to 0, Even if I was a Lyoto nuthugger I couldn't convince myself he won more than 1 round

Give Shogun Silva anyways, and I want Velazquez vs Dos Santos

[Rosebud]

Shogun won 5 Rounds to 0, Even if I was a Lyoto nuthugger I couldn't convince myself he won more than 1 round

Give Shogun Silva anyways, and I want Velazquez vs Dos Santos

Agreed on that last point, but no Lyoto undisputedly won the third round and should win the second on most everyone's card. And the first won was really close so the failed take down could easily be the difference. Shogun might've won 3 rounds to 2, but he sure as hell didn't lose 5-0. That said I would give it to lyoto 3-2 but shogun really impressed me. Great fight for him and if he can keep that level of performance up I think we'll see a rematch down the road, that is if mousasi doesn't break him on his path to a UFC LHW title shot.

[raiderz4life]

Isn't Gegard still with Strikeforce?

[slightlyaraiderfan]

Dana White just posted on twitter that both fighters have agreed to a rematch.

[fenikz]

Quite honestly Machida got his ass whooped, i'd take one of those fading jabs any day compared to the ******* thunderous leg kicks Shogun was landing

[ironman4579]

Shogun v. Machida is one of the most anticipated match-ups by hardcore fans in a very long time. Before I go into analysis, I'd like to illustrate my disposition.
1. I think Shogun's cardio is fine.
2. I think Shogun is mostly "back".
3. I like Shogun, I'm a fan.
4. Machida is a Top 4 fighter in the world (w/Fedor, Spider, Mousasi)
5. Machida and Mousasi are my two favorite fighters.



Kind of surprised no one said anything here. I know I'm late, but I think you missed someone.........................................

http://weblogs.cw11.com/sports/thehuddle/georges-st-pierre.jpg

[Bosanac01]

Damn Shogun really got owned in that fight. Good lord.

[Rosebud]

Isn't Gegard still with Strikeforce?

Yeah, but we'll see how long that lasts.

[Rosebud]

Yeah, but we'll see how long that lasts.

Especially after this CBS event where casual MMA fans will see this kid's striking and submission skills

EDIT:
I'm rewatching shogun and machida and it's really awesome hearing mike goldberg talking about shogun's counter leg kick in an exchange were lyoto hit shogun with a good right over the top and two big body kicks. Me wonders if Dana White told Goldberg to talk up Shogun all fight long.

[bernbabybern820]

Lol since when do you ever get points for defending a takedown? Thats like saying you get extra points for dodging punches when the opponent is being the aggressor.

edit: Ok i guess you mean when the scoring is very very very even?

[bernbabybern820]

Josh Gross just rewatched the fight without commentary and gave Machida rounds 1-3.

http://twitter.com/SI_JoshGross



Bottom would be the first one.

FightMetric: 49-47 Rua
Yahoo Sports / Cagewriter: 48-47 Rua
BloodyElbow : 48-47 Rua... Read More
USAToday: 48-47 Rua, 49-46 Rua
Savage Science: 49-46 Rua
ESPN / Jake Rossen: 49-46 or 48-47 Rua
MMA Fanhouse / Michael David Smith: 48-47 Rua
411mania.com: 48-47 Rua
CagePotato: 49-46 Rua
MMATorch : 48-47 Rua
MMAJunkie : 49-46 or 48-47 Rua
MMAMania : 50-45 Rua
5 Ounces of Pain : Rua (no score given)
Fightlinker : Rua (no score given)
MMAConvert: Rua ("Machida was given a gift")
ProMMA.Info: 50-45 Rua
Sherdog: Jordan Breen -- 48-47 Rua, Brian Knapp -- 48-47 Rua, Mike Fridley -- 50-45 Rua

[Tampa 2 4 life]

FightMetric: 49-47 Rua
Yahoo Sports / Cagewriter: 48-47 Rua
BloodyElbow : 48-47 Rua... Read More
USAToday: 48-47 Rua, 49-46 Rua
Savage Science: 49-46 Rua
ESPN / Jake Rossen: 49-46 or 48-47 Rua
MMA Fanhouse / Michael David Smith: 48-47 Rua
411mania.com: 48-47 Rua
CagePotato: 49-46 Rua
MMATorch : 48-47 Rua
MMAJunkie : 49-46 or 48-47 Rua
MMAMania : 50-45 Rua
5 Ounces of Pain : Rua (no score given)
Fightlinker : Rua (no score given)
MMAConvert: Rua ("Machida was given a gift")
ProMMA.Info: 50-45 Rua
Sherdog: Jordan Breen -- 48-47 Rua, Brian Knapp -- 48-47 Rua, Mike Fridley -- 50-45 Rua

This...Doesn't alter my point?

[comahan]

I honestly really dont care to see a rematch. Its like starting from complete scratch and just re-doing the entire thing, but throwing Shoguns fantastic gameplan completely out the window because Lyoto can prepare for it now.

I mean, its the only thing they can do, but still... bleh

[bernbabybern820]

This...Doesn't alter my point?

http://fightmetric.com/fights/Machida-Shogun.html

[Tampa 2 4 life]

http://fightmetric.com/fights/Machida-Shogun.html

I'm well aware, and I have trouble believing Machida landed 1 head strike in the first round.

[Rob S]

Anyone who has never taken a leg kick and is lobbying for Machida can shut up as far as I am concerned. If you have eaten leg kicks, you know Shogun won the fight. So what if Machida landed some counter rights, they didnt pack nearly the power that Shogun's shots did. Machida cant sit up or stand this morning.

[Rob S]

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/all-opinions-stats-shogun-machida-fight-organized-here-pics-links-1072966/

[fenikz]

Damn Shogun really got owned in that fight. Good lord.

...by the judges

[MaxV]

For those that say that Machida won the decision because he is a the champion, what about Rampage vs. Forrest?

That fight was pretty close too.

And once again, Machida did NOT win 3 rounds in this fight. No FRIGGIN' WAY!

Landed a lot of head shots???? Really???

Machida was doing nothing but running away all fight long.

There were only a couple of flurries of punches by Machida and he missed on most of those.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

For those that say that Machida won the decision because he is a the champion, what about Rampage vs. Forrest?

That fight was pretty close too.

And once again, Machida did NOT win 3 rounds in this fight. No FRIGGIN' WAY!

Landed a lot of head shots???? Really???

Machida was doing nothing but running away all fight long.

There were only a couple of flurries of punches by Machida and he missed on most of those.

This doesn't work because I had forrest winning that decision(Go search this thread, actually). I legitimately thought Machida won 3 rounds last night. You really need to rewatch the fight if you think he was "Running Away All Fight Long", in most instances, Machida made the first move.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

By the way Mods, when can DREAM12 discussion begin?

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

http://i35.tinypic.com/161gdmt.jpg

[fenikz]

just look at his ribs, its almost as if they are bleeding

[Rosebud]

Lol since when do you ever get points for defending a takedown? Thats like saying you get extra points for dodging punches when the opponent is being the aggressor.

edit: Ok i guess you mean when the scoring is very very very even?

Yeah, to me the first round was a complete toss up which is why I mention the failed takedown attempt, the second was also a very close fought round so again I think the failed takedown attempt is worth mentioning although I do think that Lyoto won that round.

This doesn't work because I had forrest winning that decision(Go search this thread, actually). I legitimately thought Machida won 3 rounds last night. You really need to rewatch the fight if you think he was "Running Away All Fight Long", in most instances, Machida made the first move.

I think that was a big mistake by Lyoto, I almost think that as the champ he felt he had to come out and be more of an aggressor which is why he tried to come forward instead of making shogun come to him like he had done to everybody before this fight.

[josh07039]

I watched it again and while i won't say it was a slaughter, it should have been a clear win for shogun. He just completely outworked lyoto and inflicted so much more damage.

I think this fight showed tremendous growth from shogun. He showed a methodical, thoughtful approach that he had never really shown before. He came in with a great plan, and executed it using measured aggression. If he can stay in good condition and healthy, he may be able to reestablish himself as the top of the heap at 205.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

just look at his ribs, its almost as if they are bleeding

Yeah. I didn't watch this fight, but I would have thought Machida would win. I need to watch it to get a real idea of my own opinion, but according to pretty much everyone, that was Shogun's fight. ESPN even posted that Shogun won the fight before the decision was made. I doubt they'd do that unless they were VERY confident.

[Rob S]

Tampa, have you ever felt a hard leg or body kick? If so, I am pretty certain you would see this in Shogun's favor. Lyoto landed some punches (altho Shogun blocked well) that were, in general, glancing blows. Shogun landed heavy, explosive kicks all fight. There is no doubt who did more damage. It was not even close in that dept.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

I think that was a big mistake by Lyoto, I almost think that as the champ he felt he had to come out and be more of an aggressor which is why he tried to come forward instead of making shogun come to him like he had done to everybody before this fight.

I think in the rematch Lyoto should think about standing orthodox and taking down Shogun when he throws a kick, but that could backfire if he gets stuck in the clinch.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Tampa, have you ever felt a hard leg or body kick? If so, I am pretty certain you would see this in Shogun's favor. Lyoto landed some punches (altho Shogun blocked well) that were, in general, glancing blows. Shogun landed heavy, explosive kicks all fight. There is no doubt who did more damage. It was not even close in that dept.

If you leave a mouse under someone's eye I have trouble calling it a glancing blow.

[El Peefs?????]

Poor Shogun :(

Apparently the UFC judges (when are they going to get rid of senile old Cecil Peoples; who puts up a terrible score just about every fight he judges) don't value leg & body blows. Shogun put a good beating on Mr Machida.

[vatech=accdomination]

i ama huge machida fan and i thought he lost 4 and 5 clearly, won round 3, and 1 and 2 could have gone either way, i had 49 46 rua. maybe the judges took the whole elusiveness thing into account, i dont know

[SwagU]

i ama huge machida fan and i thought he lost 4 and 5 clearly, won round 3, and 1 and 2 could have gone either way, i had 49 46 rua. maybe the judges took the whole elusiveness thing into account, i dont know

I also agree, I will eat my words Rua was very impressive in this fight and he surpassed my expectations, I did not see him coming into this fight and take it to Machida like he did. Machida's downfall was that he let Rua settle into a major groove letting him counter all day with kicks until that 3rd round, where Machida changed up his stance, after that the fight started leaning a bit closer. Not sure what the judges saw to put Machida over the top but I can't wait to see the rematch, I think its safe to say the old Rua from pride is officially back.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

This sums up my feelings pretty well.

http://www.headkicklegend.com/2009/10/25/1100366/a-kickboxing-look-at-machida-vs

[ironman4579]

This sums up my feelings pretty well.

http://www.headkicklegend.com/2009/10/25/1100366/a-kickboxing-look-at-machida-vs

Of course, that site is talking about it as a kickboxing match and not a MMA fight. They completely discount any damage done on the clinch, and then say at the end "While I understand this was a MMA fight, and clinching is a legitimate method of fighting, as a kickboxing match this fight is easily Lyoto Machida's."

Um, it's an MMA fight. If you're viewing it as a kickboxing match..................

http://www.breakitdownblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/doing_it_wrong_skaters.jpg

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Of course, that site is talking about it as a kickboxing match and not a MMA fight. They completely discount any damage done on the clinch, and then say at the end "While I understand this was a MMA fight, and clinching is a legitimate method of fighting, as a kickboxing match this fight is easily Lyoto Machida's."

Um, it's an MMA fight. If you're viewing it as a kickboxing match..................

Except they included the knees in the muay thai clinch and 100% of this fight was standing.

[Rosebud]

I understand people think shogun should have won this, but to say he was robbed? Lyoto just landed more and better strikes throughout the early rounds and then when all of Shogun's leg kicks finally slowed Lyoto down Shogun started scoring more. The fight was ******* close no matter who you think one so anyone crying bloody murder should just chill out and look forward to the re-match.

[fenikz]

Shogun nearly doubled Machida is strikes landed, he landed much harder ones and controlled the entire fight

[Rosebud]

Shogun nearly doubled Machida is strikes landed, he landed much harder ones and controlled the entire fight

Over the course of the fight that might be true, but Lyoto landed a lot more good shots in the third and more good shots in the second. That you just can't argue unless those vicious leg kicks are suddenly worth a good clean shot to the face and two fierce body kicks.

[fenikz]

Those leg kicks hurt far more then his fading jabs

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Shogun nearly doubled Machida is strikes landed, he landed much harder ones and controlled the entire fight

If this was Japanese rules style judging, Shogun wins, but in a 10 point must system it is damn close and Machida was effective early before his legs really slowed down. To say he 'controlled the entire fight' is just silly.

But please, continue to *****.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Those leg kicks hurt far more then his fading jabs

Straight lefts !=Jabs

[fenikz]

Maybe take Machida's testies off your eyes, ya might see the fight more clearly

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Maybe take Machida's testies off your eyes, ya might see the fight more clearly

http://www.gamesundso.de/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/boxxy-trolling.jpg

[E-Man]

I just watched the fight, and it was what I expected. A close fight with huge implications that got the usual screams of robbery. Since Shogun has many nuthuggers from his PRIDE days, the madness is in a huge effect. This is not what you call a robbery. It was too close for that. Bisping/Hamill was a robbery. Randleman/Rutten was a robbery. Hell even WEC's Henderson vs. Corrone decision was worse than this one. The only clear cut rounds were 3, 4, and 5 IMO, and I gave Lyoto the third, and Shogun the last two. If I was forced to make a decision I would give Shogun the win, but it's not such a disgrace that Lyoto won. But hey what do I know? I'm not a judge so it's all just my opinion. I do however look forward to the rematch. Shogun fought a great fight, and I gladly eat crow for the good performance he put on.

[E-Man]

And oh yeah...Rampage/Ninja was a much worse decision than this one.

[ironman4579]

Except they included the knees in the muay thai clinch and 100% of this fight was standing.

Yea, they included Machida's knees from the thai clinch.........

Anyway, I think the fight was close and could have gone either way. I don't really consider it robbery. The only thing I'm pointing out is that the site you agree with is not exactly a great source when they judge it as a kickboxing match and not as an MMA match. Regardless of if the entire fight was on the feet, you can't score the fight like a kickboxing match.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

Yea, they included Machida's knees from the thai clinch.........

Anyway, I think the fight was close and could have gone either way. I don't really consider it robbery. The only thing I'm pointing out is that the site you agree with is not exactly a great source when they judge it as a kickboxing match and not as an MMA match. Regardless of if the entire fight was on the feet, you can't score the fight like a kickboxing match.

And they included Shogun's knees to Machida's legs.

If they include what happens in the clinch, I am unaware of a problem with it.

[ironman4579]

And they included Shogun's knees to Machida's legs.

If they include what happens in the clinch, I am unaware of a problem with it.

Are you being purposely dense or what? There's no problem with including what happens in the clinch. The point is they specifically say that as a kickboxing match Machida won. As a kickboxing match. It's not a kickboxing match. They are specifically scoring the bout as a KB match, and they say so.

Again, I'm not saying that Rua should have won. I think it could have gone either way. But the site that you're using to prove a point is worthless when they specifically say they are scoring it as a KB match and not as a MMA match.

[BlindSite]

Are you being purposely dense or what? There's no problem with including what happens in the clinch. The point is they specifically say that as a kickboxing match Machida won. As a kickboxing match. It's not a kickboxing match. They are specifically scoring the bout as a KB match, and they say so.

Again, I'm not saying that Rua should have won. I think it could have gone either way. But the site that you're using to prove a point is worthless when they specifically say they are scoring it as a KB match and not as a MMA match.

No, what they're saying is that the argument that Rua won because he landed more strikes and soley for that reason is fallacious. Everyone who thinks Rua won keeps saying he landed more strikes, as this article points out, even if you take away the octagon control and the aggression thing, both of which realistically were a push, the fight still goes to Machida on what he landed striking.

Rua threw more strikes, Machida struck more effectively throughout the first three rounds.

That's all there is to it. Rua lost the fight in the first three rounds, he won it in the last two.

Yes Rua won the fight overall, but Machida won more rounds. That's what counts and that's why he's the champ, better strategy.

[Ward]

If you leave a mouse under someone's eye I have trouble calling it a glancing blow.

One of the easiest places to get cut, the skin is thinner.

[El Peefs?????]

Why do people keep giving Machida the 3rd? Shogun was definitely controlling the round until Machida had that little flurry with about 40 seconds left. The flurry in which Shogun landed the hardest shot in a big right off the cage.

It seems a lot of posters don't put much value into strikes that arent to the head either. Im surprised by the amount of people who value the 2-3 shots a round Machida landed to Shogun's head so much more than the 9-10 shots Shogun landed to Machida's body/legs every round.

I know both of the UFC announcers were thinking Machida lost both of the first 2 rounds, even commenting that Machida needed to go into 'desperation' mode in the 5th if he didn't want to lose a decision.

[A Perfect Score]

No, what they're saying is that the argument that Rua won because he landed more strikes and soley for that reason is fallacious. Everyone who thinks Rua won keeps saying he landed more strikes, as this article points out, even if you take away the octagon control and the aggression thing, both of which realistically were a push, the fight still goes to Machida on what he landed striking.

Rua threw more strikes, Machida struck more effectively throughout the first three rounds.

That's all there is to it. Rua lost the fight in the first three rounds, he won it in the last two.

Yes Rua won the fight overall, but Machida won more rounds. That's what counts and that's why he's the champ, better strategy.

Better strategy? What strategy is that per say, winning rounds, the thing everyone in UFC attempts to do? If we are talking about a superior "strategy", then Shogun definitely came into this fight with a better gameplan.

Obviously, there are those who think Shogun should of won and those who dont. I do think this puts a nice hole in the concept that ran rampant in this thread 10 pages ago that Machida is a perfect fighter and has no weaknesses. He has them. And Shogun just showed us, and everyone else, what they were: A lack of aggressiveness (as I stated earlier) and if you can slow him down, you stand a much better chance of winning when he can dance around the octagon. Those people who said Lyoto was going to win and Shogun stood no chance take note.

I did watch the fight and I felt that Shogun controlled most of the match. He most certainly landed more strikes and had a great gameplan coming in. Was he robbed? Not really. Was the decision the wrong one? I felt like it was.

[Brent]

my really late comment on the fights:

how did Red not get KO'd in that fight? he took soo many head shots.

[El Peefs?????]

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff282/brettnjess/cecil_medium.jpg

Cecil Peoples is -the- worst judge in all of MMA. Some other notable examples in his stellar career as a judge: Hamill vs Bisping & GSP vs Penn I.

After I saw the Machida/Shogun fight I thought 'this sure looks like a Peoples scoring' & sure enough there he was.

[Rosebud]

Peoples may suck but the other judges also scored it 48-47 machida.

[El Peefs?????]

Peoples may suck but the other judges also scored it 48-47 machida.

he probably nodded off and just copied their score card. Or vise versa?

[fenikz]

Peoples may suck but the other judges also scored it 48-47 machida.

actually he got confused and turned in 3 scorecards

[El Peefs?????]

actually he got confused and turned in 3 scorecards

yes, I hear he does wake up quite disoriented from his naps

[Tampa 2 4 life]

One of the easiest places to get cut, the skin is thinner.

But it wasn't a cut, It was swelling.

[Cicero]

Fightmetric numbers
http://www.fightmetric.com/fights/Machida-Shogun.html

[BlindSite]

Fightmetric numbers
http://www.fightmetric.com/fights/Machida-Shogun.html

Data entered by someone watching the fight and therefore subject to human error

[MaxV]

Data entered by someone watching the fight and therefore subject to human error

And what exactly are judges? Cyborgs?

[Rob S]

But it wasn't a cut, It was swelling.

okay, but who did more damage and landed the more effective, harder blows? If you answer Machida, your crazy. You want to talk about swelling? How about the raw, red, almost popped blister looking huge things on Machida's body and legs. Sorry, Shogun landed the cleaner, harder, more effective blows (he took Machida off his gameplan, not the other way around) while throwing more, coming forward, and winning most exchanges with thunderous kicks. Sorry, I dont see it. Decently close fight, yes, it had to be due to the cerebral nature. However, there is a reason why almost everyone who watched the fight (including almost every respected MMA writer and critic) had Shogun winning. Thank God there is a rematch.

[Ward]

But it wasn't a cut, It was swelling.

So your point looks even worse.

[josh07039]

So your point looks even worse.Im not agreeing with him in terms of Machida winning, but in terms of the mouse under the eye, he has a point(even if it really doesn't matter). The fact that it wasn't a cut helps his case, because cuts are often generated by glancing blows. I mean the bruise under Shogun's eye could have come from a glancing blow, i don't know, but it is more likely it came from a landed shot. Honestly though, does it matter? That was the only damage Machida did to Shogun.

[Rob S]

Im not agreeing with him in terms of Machida winning, but in terms of the mouse under the eye, he has a point(even if it really doesn't matter). The fact that it wasn't a cut helps his case, because cuts are often generated by glancing blows. I mean the bruise under Shogun's eye could have come from a glancing blow, i don't know, but it is more likely it came from a landed shot. Honestly though, does it matter? That was the only damage Machida did to Shogun.

Yeah, the swelling was likely caused by a direct, hard shot. Still changes nothing tho.

[Ward]

Yeah, the swelling was likely caused by a direct, hard shot. Still changes nothing tho.

It doesn't indicate anything except that he got hit there. Certain parts of the body react worse to physical contact, under the eyes, the temples and the eyebrow area being some of the easiest to cause trauma to. It only indicates that he got hit there, not that it was an impressive blow. It's more impressive that Machida's body was starting to look like hamburger meat, that's hard to do. You can get moused from just grappling and no intentional strikes being thrown. It has no relevance to who dominated a fight.

[Ward]

Data entered by someone watching the fight and therefore subject to human error

I think it's a noble effort, trying to come up with metrics for a fight. It's imperfect, but useful.

[josh07039]

It doesn't indicate anything except that he got hit there. Certain parts of the body react worse to physical contact, under the eyes, the temples and the eyebrow area being some of the easiest to cause trauma to. It only indicates that he got hit there, not that it was an impressive blow. It's more impressive that Machida's body was starting to look like hamburger meat, that's hard to do. You can get moused from just grappling and no intentional strikes being thrown. It has no relevance to who dominated a fight.Exactly. I'm pretty sure I remember it being a hard counter that probably caused the mouse, but as we all seem to agree on, It doesn't matter. One bruise on the face does not(or perhaps I might want to say should not) have any bearing on the result. It was not a robbery, but under pretty much any criteria I can think of, shogun won that fight.

Damage-Shogun battered Lyoto's body
Clean strikes-Shogun landed many more crisp strikes than Lyoto.
Power Strikes- While it is harder to determine the damage of a body/leg kick, it was pretty obvious how powerful Shogun's kicks were. Lyoto could barely move by the end of the fight and his torso was severely red.
Aggression-Shogun outworked Lyoto and out landed him
Octagon control- Shogun was constantly moving forward and cutting off the cage. Lyoto frequently ran into the cage with his back as he tried to evade kicks.
Grappling/Takedowns-Lyoto stuffed every takedown so I guess this has to go to him. But, to me, this is not nearly as significant as the other categories because it wasn't a huge part of the fight.

[nepg]

I think Shogun won. But, here's the thing, do you really want to see a belt change hands on a close decision? You can't just try to out-point the champ and expect them to give you the belt. Shogun just tried to Forrest Griffen this fight, and it cost him. They'll have a rematch, and they both know at least one of them needs to try to finish the fight.

As for why the judges might have given it to Lyoto... Shogun never made an effort to finish the fight. Lyoto made a couple attempts. Also, if the judges were scoring for take down stuffs, Lyoto stuffed about 10 attempts. Surprisingly, Lyoto was also the aggressor in this fight. It was Shogun who was countering.

Lyoto is one of my favorite fighters (along with Mousasi), but Shogun won by points, imo. Won't say I'm not glad Lyoto still has the belt. I think he'll come in a much better fighter next time they fight, and Shogun is likely to be a lot more aggressive... I think Lyoto proved he can't be finished...his chin and ability to continue to defend himself is insane.

[Rob S]

It doesn't indicate anything except that he got hit there. Certain parts of the body react worse to physical contact, under the eyes, the temples and the eyebrow area being some of the easiest to cause trauma to. It only indicates that he got hit there, not that it was an impressive blow. It's more impressive that Machida's body was starting to look like hamburger meat, that's hard to do. You can get moused from just grappling and no intentional strikes being thrown. It has no relevance to who dominated a fight.

trust me, I know. Generally, a pretty big mouse like that is the resut of a pretty hard shot tho. Throw in the fact that some of the punches Machida threw landed pretty clean, and you can pretty safely assume Shogun got caught by a good shot and it caused the mouse.

[RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES]

I watched the fight and thought Shogun won it. I actually still think he won it but I only seen it once and I was drunk and Bob Marleyed(not a word) up. I will have to watch it again to see why this is closer than I thought it was. As someone said on here as well as CCB telling me. The *** that sits next to Joe Rogan was making it like Machida was getting destroyed when really he was just getting countered with leg and body kicks. When you are drunk the announcer can have a big effect on how you think the fight is going. Other than that Cain is a monster and needs to fight the champ or at least get another fight guaranteeing him a title fight if he wins

[Ward]

I think Shogun won. But, here's the thing, do you really want to see a belt change hands on a close decision? You can't just try to out-point the champ and expect them to give you the belt. Shogun just tried to Forrest Griffen this fight, and it cost him. They'll have a rematch, and they both know at least one of them needs to try to finish the fight.

I agree with you on this point. A belt change should be the result of a KO, TKO, or submission. A fight fought to it's natural conclusion, instead of letting 3 retards decide for us. 5 minute rounds (or hell, even 10) and no round limit. That said, under a points system, I don't see how Shogun lost. Esp. using the Griffin-Rampage fight as prior precedent. It just makes no sense.

[Rob S]

meh......I dont buy the whole take the belt from the champion thing. If you win the fight under the rules put forth, you win the fight. Thats the way it should be. Seriosly, how is Machida ever going to lose if he has to be KOed? When you press for a KO against Machida, you will likely lose. IF Shogun has been any more aggresive than he was, it was probably goodnight.

[Ward]

meh......I dont buy the whole take the belt from the champion thing. If you win the fight under the rules put forth, you win the fight. Thats the way it should be. Seriosly, how is Machida ever going to lose if he has to be KOed? When you press for a KO against Machida, you will likely lose. IF Shogun has been any more aggresive than he was, it was probably goodnight.

You don't think longer championship fights are a good idea?

[RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES]

meh......I dont buy the whole take the belt from the champion thing. If you win the fight under the rules put forth, you win the fight. Thats the way it should be. Seriosly, how is Machida ever going to lose if he has to be KOed? When you press for a KO against Machida, you will likely lose. IF Shogun has been any more aggresive than he was, it was probably goodnight.

You not buying it is irrelevant because you aren't a judge. Shogun has been fighting long enough to know how judges are or could be during a decision. He wasn't very aggressive the whole fight. Even though he was walking towards Machida he kept his distance and wasn't getting to close. He didn't try to many power shots and like someone said before he probably didn't look for the finish one time. He was ok with just walking around kicking a leg and the body. That isn't going to beat the champion. I beleive he should of won but I agree that if you want to beat the champ you have to do it without going to a decision and if it does go to a decision you have to do a lot more than what he did to win.

[Rob S]

You don't think longer championship fights are a good idea?

perhaps you could extend it, but 5 rounds (25 minutes) is plenty of time imo. Once you get beyond that, I think the fighters become at risk. Fighting until a KO or submission is a pretty dangerous concept. Would you have really liked to see a fight like GSP-Fitch go to a 6th round......no. I could see some serious injuries occuring. Throw in the fact that some title fight are just brutal to watch for 25 minutes, let alone to a finish, and I will support the 5 round rule.....maybe with an extra tie breaker round in the case of a draw (like K-1). MMA has come a long way from the "fight to the death" mentality of the early days and I think going back to it is a bad idea. The fan in me is slightly intrigued, but if you get sonme good judges in there and maybe revamp the scoring system, a 5 round w/ a tiebreaker system should be more than enough to decide a winner.

[Rob S]

You not buying it is irrelevant because you aren't a judge. Shogun has been fighting long enough to know how judges are or could be during a decision. He wasn't very aggressive the whole fight. Even though he was walking towards Machida he kept his distance and wasn't getting to close. He didn't try to many power shots and like someone said before he probably didn't look for the finish one time. He was ok with just walking around kicking a leg and the body. That isn't going to beat the champion. I beleive he should of won but I agree that if you want to beat the champ you have to do it without going to a decision and if it does go to a decision you have to do a lot more than what he did to win.

I am not arguing that it is that way, I am arguing that it should not be that way. The judges have a critea they follow and nowhere does it reference anything with regards to title fights other than 5 rounds. Therefore, it should not be factored in. Now, should Shogun have pressed forward, knowing how judges usually score, perhaps, but against Machida that is a pretty horrific strategy and he may have felt he would have been KOed. Under the official rules of judging, its tough to argue Shogun didnt win the fight.....