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ricky bobby
10-09-2006, 08:13 AM
Now that all three have starts under their belts, who is the better QB? For the last 2-3 years i've been hearing from Eli haters that he was picked #1 overall just because he was a Manning. Haters were always pointing out how great big ben was doing in Pittsburg his rookie year. So i'm just here to say... WHAT NOW?? I'm sorry about all the emotion. Give me your thoughts.

LTgiants
10-09-2006, 08:26 AM
eli

Staubach12
10-09-2006, 08:36 AM
Eli Manning will never be as good as Peyton, IMO. He does have good tools, though. He also runs the offense very well, and he has tons of talent. I like Manning, and he has a very bright future.

Phillip Rivers has lots of potential, and he showed last night that he can be more than a game manager. Whether he can eveolve into a great QB is up to Marty Schottenheimer and the opportunities he choses to provide to Rivers. He's still getting used to this offense as this is only his 1st year as a starter.

For the past 2 years, Ben Roethlisberger has been nothing more than a glorified game manager. Now that Bettis is gone and the run game isn't functioning as it has in the past few years, Roethlisberger has been asked to do more than be a game manager. He's been asked to start to become a QB. Roethlisberger has shown that he will never be a great QB. Roethlisberger is a great game manager, but he's not a good QB.

So now...
1.Manning
2.Rivers
3.Roethlisberger

Manning is the best as of now, but if Marty Schottenheimer allows Rivers to evolve as a QB, he could pass up Manning.

draftguru151
10-09-2006, 08:37 AM
Rivers.

ricky bobby
10-09-2006, 08:40 AM
Rivers.
Would you like to explain your selection??

smittyjs
10-09-2006, 08:45 AM
Philip Rivers

sweetness34
10-09-2006, 08:45 AM
Rivers.
Would you like to explain your selection??

Why does he have to? You didn't make ltgiants explain his....

steelersfan43
10-09-2006, 08:46 AM
Rivers.
Would you like to explain your selection??

wat!!!!!!! some1 dontz liek maningzorbs!!!!

smittyjs
10-09-2006, 08:46 AM
Rivers.
Would you like to explain your selection??

Why does he have to? You didn't make ltgiants explain his....i was thinking the same thing :?

ricky bobby
10-09-2006, 08:48 AM
Alright. Everyone explain your selections

Staubach12
10-09-2006, 08:52 AM
I'm the only one that has, and no one says a word to me. :?

ricky bobby
10-09-2006, 08:55 AM
Manning 1149 yards 9 TDs 5 INTS 97.1 QB rating
Rivers 730 yards 5 TDs 2 INTS 94.5 QB rating
Ben 569 yards 0 TDs 7 INTS 41.7 QB rating

This years stats. please don't come on here and tell me stats mean nothing.

steelersfan43
10-09-2006, 08:55 AM
I'm the only one that has, and no one says a word to me. :?

You did a nice little job, yes you did. :wink:

Staubach12
10-09-2006, 09:00 AM
I'm the only one that has, and no one says a word to me. :?

You did a nice little job, yes you did. :wink:

:roll: :lol:

Giant4life
10-09-2006, 09:02 AM
Manning 1149 yards 9 TDs 5 INTS 97.1 QB rating
Rivers 730 yards 5 TDs 2 INTS 94.5 QB rating
Ben 569 yards 0 TDs 7 INTS 41.7 QB rating

This years stats. please don't come on here and tell me stats mean nothing.

Man, no touchdown's for Ben :shock:

Staubach12
10-09-2006, 09:04 AM
Manning 1149 yards 9 TDs 5 INTS 97.1 QB rating
Rivers 730 yards 5 TDs 2 INTS 94.5 QB rating
Ben 569 yards 0 TDs 7 INTS 41.7 QB rating

This years stats. please don't come on here and tell me stats mean nothing.

Man, no touchdown's for Ben :shock:

Ben is awul. I've said he's overrated since his first win when everyone was like, "OMG!1!11 OMG!1!!1 big ben ownzzz!1!111!!"

Number 10
10-09-2006, 09:13 AM
I thank Big Ben for proving me right. He is better than he is playing right now, but his weaknesses are clearly being exploited and he no longer can depend on the best rushing attack in the NFL. I love the fact that he looks so awful right now. I remember getting chastised by so many on this board for wanting Eli over him last Spring.

Rivers is nasty, so accurate. I'm not sure Eli can keep this level of play over the course of the season, but if he can, he is above Rivers. I see Rivers being a more consistent QB while Eli will be more up and down. But both are on their way to being top 5 QBs within the next 3-4 years.

Vince Lombardi
10-09-2006, 09:20 AM
Rivers for me. As I said in the Rivers thread him and Eli are pretty equal as far as being able to make all of the throws but Rivers takes it in other categories.

ricky bobby
10-09-2006, 09:24 AM
I thank Big Ben for proving me right. He is better than he is playing right now, but his weaknesses are clearly being exploited and he no longer can depend on the best rushing attack in the NFL. I love the fact that he looks so awful right now. I remember getting chastised by so many on this board for wanting Eli over him last Spring.

Rivers is nasty, so accurate. I'm not sure Eli can keep this level of play over the course of the season, but if he can, he is above Rivers. I see Rivers being a more consistent QB while Eli will be more up and down. But both are on their way to being top 5 QBs within the next 3-4 years.

In my opinion Eli has been the only consitant part of the giants this year. One of his interceptions went off of tiki's hands and into the defender, and the other went off of Plaxico's hands into the defender. The two picks he threw vs. the Seahawks were pretty bad, i must admitt. In my opinion Eli is already a top ten QB.

1. Peyton Manning
2. Donovan McNabb
3. Carson Palmer
4. Marc Bulger
5. Tom Brady
6. David Carr
7. Rex Grossman
8. Eli Manning
9. Drew Brees
10. Matt Hasselback

ricky bobby
10-09-2006, 09:25 AM
Rivers for me. As I said in the Rivers thread him and Eli are pretty equal as far as being able to make all of the throws but Rivers takes it in other categories.

What are the other catagories?

Jughead10
10-09-2006, 09:25 AM
I thank Big Ben for proving me right. He is better than he is playing right now, but his weaknesses are clearly being exploited and he no longer can depend on the best rushing attack in the NFL. I love the fact that he looks so awful right now. I remember getting chastised by so many on this board for wanting Eli over him last Spring.

Rivers is nasty, so accurate. I'm not sure Eli can keep this level of play over the course of the season, but if he can, he is above Rivers. I see Rivers being a more consistent QB while Eli will be more up and down. But both are on their way to being top 5 QBs within the next 3-4 years.

In my opinion Eli has been the only consitant part of the giants this year. One of his interceptions went off of tiki's hands and into the defender, and the other went off of Plaxico's hands into the defender. The two picks he threw vs. the Seahawks were pretty bad, i must admitt. In my opinion Eli is already a top ten QB.

1. Peyton Manning
2. Donovan McNabb
3. Carson Palmer
4. Marc Bulger
5. Tom Brady
6. David Carr
7. Rex Grossman
8. Eli Manning
9. Drew Brees
10. Matt Hasselback

I hope that isn't in the order you actually believe.

smittyjs
10-09-2006, 09:26 AM
I thank Big Ben for proving me right. He is better than he is playing right now, but his weaknesses are clearly being exploited and he no longer can depend on the best rushing attack in the NFL. I love the fact that he looks so awful right now. I remember getting chastised by so many on this board for wanting Eli over him last Spring.

Rivers is nasty, so accurate. I'm not sure Eli can keep this level of play over the course of the season, but if he can, he is above Rivers. I see Rivers being a more consistent QB while Eli will be more up and down. But both are on their way to being top 5 QBs within the next 3-4 years.

In my opinion Eli has been the only consitant part of the giants this year. One of his interceptions went off of tiki's hands and into the defender, and the other went off of Plaxico's hands into the defender. The two picks he threw vs. the Seahawks were pretty bad, i must admitt. In my opinion Eli is already a top ten QB.

1. Peyton Manning
2. Donovan McNabb
3. Carson Palmer
4. Marc Bulger
5. Tom Brady
6. David Carr
7. Rex Grossman
8. Eli Manning
9. Drew Brees
10. Matt Hasselback

I hope that isn't in the order you actually believe.Same here
Bulger over Brady :? :lol:

Number 10
10-09-2006, 09:40 AM
The main aspect of Eli's game that goes unnoticed is his pocket presence. He has had it forever, and that is why he can avoid the sacks for the most part. He simply has the "it" factor, and that is why I know Eli will win AT LEAST one Super Bowl.

ricky bobby
10-09-2006, 09:50 AM
The main aspect of Eli's game that goes unnoticed is his pocket presence. He has had it forever, and that is why he can avoid the sacks for the most part. He simply has the "it" factor, and that is why I know Eli will win AT LEAST one Super Bowl.

Eli is just plain clutch. He picks it up in the second half. Last year's denver game, Cowboys game (we lost in OT), Seahawks game, This year's Eagles games. He has IT. Whatever IT may be.

The Unseen
10-09-2006, 10:09 AM
Who is best? Eli Manning

Who would I rather have, which was the actual poll question? Philip Rivers. He's deadly accurate, he's a great leader, and he hasn't even finished out. Of course, Eli Manning had a great beginning last year and went sour, but he's still good.

Vince Lombardi
10-09-2006, 10:13 AM
Rivers for me. As I said in the Rivers thread him and Eli are pretty equal as far as being able to make all of the throws but Rivers takes it in other categories.

What are the other catagories?

Personality-Rivers has a very fiery personality. I like that he gets his teammates fired up and he also commands respect as the leader. Eli on the other hand seems to prefer to let someone else speak up, not that that's a bad thing, I just prefer a QB who can be the vocal leader.

Physicality- They both have great size but Rivers seems to be the more physical of the two.

In most other areas I have them pretty much equal though. I have no doubt Eli is gonna be a great QB too as he has a pedigree that can't be denied. It's mostly just a difference in preference on why I prefer Rivers.

bearsfan_51
10-09-2006, 10:16 AM
It's amazing what one game will do for everyone's opinion. You are all likely the same people that said the Chargers didn't have a shot at the playoffs because they had Rivers at QB. I still take Big Ben quite honestly. He's struggling yes, but he has the kind of moxy that you want in a QB.

ricky bobby
10-09-2006, 10:17 AM
Young and Rivers both have an odd delivery. I'm not saying its bad, it's just low and prone to getting batted down. I think the verdict is still out on Rivers, he's only started a handful of games. Eli is already solid.

Number 10
10-09-2006, 10:17 AM
It's amazing what one game will do for everyone's opinion. You are all likely the same people that said the Chargers didn't have a shot at the playoffs because they had Rivers at QB. I still take Big Ben quite honestly. He's struggling yes, but he has the kind of moxy that you want in a QB.

One game? We are about to go into week 6.

ricky bobby
10-09-2006, 10:18 AM
It's amazing what one game will do for everyone's opinion. You are all likely the same people that said the Chargers didn't have a shot at the playoffs because they had Rivers at QB. I still take Big Ben quite honestly. He's struggling yes, but he has the kind of moxy that you want in a QB.
0 TD's 7 picks.
I said it all along. He can only manage a game. He's not good when he has to air it out to win the game. With no running game, their offense is doomed.

bearsfan_51
10-09-2006, 10:25 AM
It's amazing what one game will do for everyone's opinion. You are all likely the same people that said the Chargers didn't have a shot at the playoffs because they had Rivers at QB. I still take Big Ben quite honestly. He's struggling yes, but he has the kind of moxy that you want in a QB.

One game? We are about to go into week 6.
How many games do you think most people have seen Philip Rivers play? We have about 0 Chargers fans on here and they aren't on national TV that often.

Twiddler
10-09-2006, 10:26 AM
It's between Eli and Rivers for me right now and I think I'd lean towards Rivers because of the precision that he can place on his throws. And I've never been a big fan of Ben.

ricky bobby
10-09-2006, 10:28 AM
It's between Eli and Rivers for me right now and I think I'd lean towards Rivers because of the precision that he can place on his throws. And I've never been a big fan of Ben.

Eli is right at the top of the league i believe in completion %. 67.1% i believe.

Vince Lombardi
10-09-2006, 10:48 AM
It's amazing what one game will do for everyone's opinion. You are all likely the same people that said the Chargers didn't have a shot at the playoffs because they had Rivers at QB. I still take Big Ben quite honestly. He's struggling yes, but he has the kind of moxy that you want in a QB.

:roll: Yea and none of us are familiar with him at all from watching him in college. It's not like this is a guy that nobody has ever heard of that's coming out of nowhere and everybodies jumping on his bandwagon after a game. This is a guy who was selected #4 overall and came into the league with high expectations, many people had him as the #1 QB in that draft. I loved Rivers coming out of college and I don't need to see him play for several years to be able to tell that his game will adapt to the NFL nicely. It's pretty clear that this kid is gonna be a star in the league. :roll:

bigbluedefense
10-09-2006, 11:03 AM
Aaah...so it begins eh?

Im going to sound like a homer on this one, but I honestly think Eli Manning is the best of the group. Like Number 10 stated, he has "it". His pocket presence is unreal, and he's so so clutch. The kid can do it all. What were his knocks prior to this season?

Inaccuracy and lack of arm strength, and decision making to an extent.

Well, looky here, he is 2nd in the league in TDs, he has I believe the best competion % in the league, and has already shown his 4th quarter bravado on 2 different occassions. And on top of that, he's literally been unstoppable in the no huddle. Its funny how all the Eli hate subsided so quickly.

But back to the point, Rivers has potential to be the 2nd best. He's accurate, but Im not a big fan of his side arm delivery. He also hasn't shown much to prove hes legitimately better than Roethlisberger. Its far too early. I think both are near equal level, with Rivers slightly better.

Ben's got the ring, but he's the worst of this group. Thats not to say he's bad, because he's still good. He's a great game manager, but he's shown consistently throughout his career so far that he is incapable of leading an offense when he's asked to be the focal point. Look at his stats. I don't want to research it, but Im pretty sure that when he throws over or roughly 30 times, he's never played a great game, in fact he's probably played poorly. You can look it up, Im too lazy to.

LonghornsLegend
10-09-2006, 12:01 PM
its sick, the way rivers put placement on some of those balls...

ThEvIcTR
10-09-2006, 12:20 PM
All the mannings choke, Rivers will be better then Eli. Look at Eli's offense compared to Rivers. Yes i know Rivers has LT and Gates but Eli has Tiki, Shockey, Toomer, and Burress. Rivers puts amazing placement on the ball and he is a great game manager. The chargers need to bring in some more talent to the wide out position and Rivers will be great. Rivers was great in college and in college i thought he was better then ELI but you know how much the media loves those Mannings.

bigbluedefense
10-09-2006, 12:24 PM
All the mannings choke, Rivers will be better then Eli. Look at Eli's offense compared to Rivers. Yes i know Rivers has LT and Gates but Eli has Tiki, Shockey, Toomer, and Burress. Rivers puts amazing placement on the ball and he is a great game manager. The chargers need to bring in some more talent to the wide out position and Rivers will be great. Rivers was great in college and in college i thought he was better then ELI but you know how much the media loves those Mannings.

You came off as a hater on this one. Phillip Rivers has plenty of talent. Toomer is not much different from McCardell. Gates is light years ahead of Shockey right now. LT is clearly better than Barber. Talent is equal. Rivers gets this stigma that he's more accurate than Eli...how? Eli has the highest completion % in the league...wheres the "accuracy issues" all the haters were talking about last year? But more importantly, his pocket presence is not as good as Eli. Thats the most overlooked aspect of a quarterback, pocket presence.

And Eli will not choke...they call him 4th quarter Eli for a reason.

Right now all this "I <3 Phillip Rivers" talk is just as premature as the Ben Roethlisberger talk the past 2 years. What has he done to warrant so much love? He played like 4 games. This is the first time he threw for 30+. Jeez guys, people need to stop jumping on this.

http://www.parm.net/b3ta/bandwagon.jpg

ThEvIcTR
10-09-2006, 12:36 PM
Lights years ahead of shockey? you have got to be kidding me. Gates is good but him and LT get keyed on like you wouldnt believe. Buress and Toomer put the chargers wide outs to shame. And LT isnt way better then Tiki, Tiki is great out of the backfield just like LT is. You cant be serious when you tell me that the chargers offense is as good as the giants. And i come off as a hater how? I'm not even a Giants or Chargers fan i can careless about them i just think Rivers will be a better player.

bigbluedefense
10-09-2006, 12:43 PM
Lights years ahead of shockey? you have got to be kidding me. Gates is good but him and LT get keyed on like you wouldnt believe. Buress and Toomer put the chargers wide outs to shame. And LT isnt way better then Tiki, Tiki is great out of the backfield just like LT is. You cant be serious when you tell me that the chargers offense is as good as the giants. And i come off as a hater how? I'm not even a Giants or Chargers fan i can careless about them i just think Rivers will be a better player.

1. What has Shockey done thus far to warrant the same status as Gates? He's been injury prone the past 2 years and is more mouth than substance. Gates has far out produced Shockey these past 2 years. Some of it is scheme, but still.

2. Toomer last year looked done...washed up. The reason why he's doing so good this year is because Manning is stepping his game up. Toomer is in man coverage just like McCardell, Eli is taking advantage of it and Rivers is not at the moment. Toomer is no faster than McCardell, and they both have good hands and good route running. Theyre a draw.

3. LT is still young. Barber has already shown signs of age, and he isn't nearly as productive this year as last year. Outside of the skins game, he's been mediocre. He's constantly being spelled by Jacobs because he just doesn't have the stamina he used to. At this point in his career, LT is definately better.

4. You don't think Burress is keyed in on?

5. SD's oline is better than ours.

6. SD has a better FB

7. So let's recap. Better oline, better TE, better FB, better RB. Flanker is tied, our primary WR is better. So we beat them in one category. Eli just makes the rest of the guys better. Rivers will get there, but he is in no way there right now. Let's wait a little before we compare him to Eli or Ben.

Nitschke-Hawk
10-09-2006, 12:44 PM
Roethlisberger is easily the most overrated QB in the league and I'm tired of the everything surrounding him (and I'm tired of the Favre talk too, so don't yell at me!).

1. Eli
2. Rivers
3. Roethlisberger

portermvp84
10-09-2006, 12:45 PM
Eli, good quarterback reads defenses, good acuarcy, and good arm strenght.

Shiver
10-09-2006, 12:47 PM
Come on, a lot of those "SD is better" are very close. Rivers is doing this in his first year as a starter, he is way ahead of the curve compared to Eli Manning and Carson Palmer in their respective first seasons. All I will agree upon is that Eli and Philip are both very good, meanwhile Ben is not. Overall I prefer Rivers, he has everything anyone could want out of a QB. He's is exceptional on all accounts, maturity, leadership, arm strength, accuracy, mobility in the pocket. I see him on a level with Peyton and Carson within a year.

bigbluedefense
10-09-2006, 12:50 PM
Come on, a lot of those "SD is better" are very close. Rivers is doing this in his first year as a starter, he is way ahead of the curve compared to Eli Manning and Carson Palmer in their respective first seasons. All I will agree upon is that Eli and Philip are both very good, meanwhile Ben is not. Overall I prefer Rivers, he has everything anyone could want out of a QB. He's is exceptional on all accounts, maturity, leadership, arm strength, accuracy, mobility in the pocket.

I personally have Rivers projected to be better than Ben eventually, but don't you think the talk is too premature? Whats the difference between this Rivers talk and the Ben talk from last year? We're all jumping to conclusions far too quickly.

And yes, the factors I mentioned above are close, but to say NYG has more talent than SD is not true, its close either way, I'll give you that. And while Rivers is in his first year starting, he did sit 2 years. That has to count for something. Thats 8 extra PS games, plus garbage time. Thats still something.

Shiver
10-09-2006, 01:08 PM
I do not think so. The Steelers shut down LaDainian Tomlinson, period. Rivers stepped up to the plate and won the game, all the while in his fourth NFL start. He's already shown me more than Roethlisberger has in that regard. Roethlisberger struggles in games where he throws more than 30+ times;

5 Touchdowns
11 Interceptions

Which is pretty damning. Not to mention Roethlisberger only received credit as a good NFL QB when he "led his team to a Super Bowl" despite him sucking in said game.

Zim3031
10-09-2006, 01:22 PM
I've always been a big fan of Rivers since he was in a college and it's nice to see him finally have a chance.

And I think Eli's numbers are inflated because of all the 4th quarter yards that he's racking up against prevents. He's still remarkably inconsistent.

Jughead10
10-09-2006, 01:26 PM
I've always been a big fan of Rivers since he was in a college and it's nice to see him finally have a chance.

And I think Eli's numbers are inflated because of all the 4th quarter yards that he's racking up against prevents. He's still remarkably inconsistent.

He played one game against something that could be considered prevent defense.

bigbluedefense
10-09-2006, 01:26 PM
I've always been a big fan of Rivers since he was in a college and it's nice to see him finally have a chance.

And I think Eli's numbers are inflated because of all the 4th quarter yards that he's racking up against prevents. He's still remarkably inconsistent.

Im not gonna beat a dead horse, but that is so far from the truth. He's been great this year, I don't see any of the "knocks" of his game at all this year. But I regress.

Shiv, you brought up a good point that I failed to realize. Rivers went out there and won that game. Thats definately true. Roethlisberger can't do that. He's proven it throughout his career when he throws 30+ times. However, its still Rivers 4th game. I mean, what if he comes out and throws 4 INTs next week? It could happen. Its still far too early to make a declaration on Rivers being better than Roethlisberger. As much as Roethlisberger has/is overrated, I think we're taking a little too much credit away from him too.

Shiver
10-09-2006, 01:27 PM
I will gladly eat crow if he throws 4-picks against the 49ers next week. :lol:

bearfan
10-09-2006, 01:29 PM
I picked Big Ben just because he would fit the type of QB that the Bears have had sucsess w/ Very well

Number 10
10-09-2006, 01:30 PM
I've always been a big fan of Rivers since he was in a college and it's nice to see him finally have a chance.

And I think Eli's numbers are inflated because of all the 4th quarter yards that he's racking up against prevents. He's still remarkably inconsistent.


Jets fan....Irony?

L6
10-09-2006, 01:30 PM
Ben is a game manager, you can find those in the later rounds. Hes nothing special. He got all the hype his first couple years because he didnt have to do anything. I always knew he was still the 3rd best of those 3. Hes a distant 3rd, and I might even probly put him behind Schaub once he gets a chance to play somewhere.

Eli is better than Rivers at this point but I like both of them a lot.

yourfavestoner
10-09-2006, 01:35 PM
It's amazing what one game will do for everyone's opinion. You are all likely the same people that said the Chargers didn't have a shot at the playoffs because they had Rivers at QB. I still take Big Ben quite honestly. He's struggling yes, but he has the kind of moxy that you want in a QB.

One game? We are about to go into week 6.
How many games do you think most people have seen Philip Rivers play? We have about 0 Chargers fans on here and they aren't on national TV that often.

I have season tickets to the Chargers :lol:

After seeing Rivers play, I can honestly say that I think they made the right decision in not trading Rivers away. He's every bit as accurate as Brees was, except he doesn't have a pea shooter for an arm.

Saying he's any better than the other two is just silly, though. Right now,, he's in the same, game-managing role that Roethlisbeergut has been in, and it's working fantastically. I hear Chargers fans complaining about "Marty Ball" all the time, and it really pisses me off. It works. You have the best running back in the game, and a backup who would start for a lot of teams in the NFL. You're breaking in a brand new quarterback. What is there to complain about?

Zim3031
10-09-2006, 01:39 PM
I've always been a big fan of Rivers since he was in a college and it's nice to see him finally have a chance.

And I think Eli's numbers are inflated because of all the 4th quarter yards that he's racking up against prevents. He's still remarkably inconsistent.

Im not gonna beat a dead horse, but that is so far from the truth. He's been great this year, I don't see any of the "knocks" of his game at all this year. But I regress.


:shock: Am I the only one that watched the Seattle game where Eli quickly threw an interception right after his team got a turnover? And he did it again a drive or two later! He just padded his stats while the seahawks were celebrating on the sideline.

And what's with the first three quarters he played against Philly? If he decided to play better then he wouldn't have needed a miracle Eagles choke to win it

Eli's had one game where he's played a full good 4 quarters. I've yet to see why he's a top ten QB at this point.

bigbluedefense
10-09-2006, 01:44 PM
I've always been a big fan of Rivers since he was in a college and it's nice to see him finally have a chance.

And I think Eli's numbers are inflated because of all the 4th quarter yards that he's racking up against prevents. He's still remarkably inconsistent.

Im not gonna beat a dead horse, but that is so far from the truth. He's been great this year, I don't see any of the "knocks" of his game at all this year. But I regress.


:shock: Am I the only one that watched the Seattle game where Eli quickly threw an interception right after his team got a turnover? And he did it again a drive or two later! He just padded his stats while the seahawks were celebrating on the sideline.

And what's with the first three quarters he played against Philly? If he decided to play better then he wouldn't have needed a miracle Eagles choke to win it

Eli's had one game where he's played a full good 4 quarters. I've yet to see why he's a top ten QB at this point.

Yes, Seattle was the one game where at the start he made 2 poor decisions in a row. But look after the first 2 possessions. Even after that he played great. Its not his fault his guys fumbled and a pick occured off the hands of his own receiver. And say what you want about "padding stats". The Seahawks tried their heart out half way through the 4th to stop him because he was legitimately bringing us back, and still couldn't stop him.

And Philly? He was on the entire game. The only reason why his numbers dropped were because he was getting sacked every play in the 2nd and 3rd quarter. That was the olines fault. When he had protection, he carved up the Eagles every chance he got. As a guy who studies each Giant game like no tomorrow, trust me on this, Im not making it up.

ricky bobby
10-09-2006, 01:48 PM
I've always been a big fan of Rivers since he was in a college and it's nice to see him finally have a chance.

And I think Eli's numbers are inflated because of all the 4th quarter yards that he's racking up against prevents. He's still remarkably inconsistent.

Im not gonna beat a dead horse, but that is so far from the truth. He's been great this year, I don't see any of the "knocks" of his game at all this year. But I regress.


:shock: Am I the only one that watched the Seattle game where Eli quickly threw an interception right after his team got a turnover? And he did it again a drive or two later! He just padded his stats while the seahawks were celebrating on the sideline.

And what's with the first three quarters he played against Philly? If he decided to play better then he wouldn't have needed a miracle Eagles choke to win it

Eli's had one game where he's played a full good 4 quarters. I've yet to see why he's a top ten QB at this point.

I mentioned the INTs he threw in Seattle. That was on his shoulders.

The Philly game wasn't his fault. I was absolutly astounded by his pocket presence despite being sacked 8 times that game. Not to mention all the times he got hit. He stood in the pocket that philly game and threw lasers all over the field right before he got hit. Last game vs. the skins he threw two beautiful downfield completions and ended up on his back twice.

Philip Rivers has a much better supporting cast, which was already mentioned (Similar to big ben his rookie year). Eli has accumulated much of his stats this season playing catch-up, due to a poor defense. I personally didn't think this poll would be so close. Some people are jumping all over Rivers just like they jumped all over Big Ben.

P-L
10-09-2006, 01:50 PM
I like Rivers. Not to take anything away from Manning or Roethlisberger, but I liked Rivers the best coming out of college. I had him as the #1 QB prospect that year and he has been outstanding so far this season.

Shiver
10-09-2006, 01:54 PM
He has been outstanding, despite everyone saying that he was going to hold the Chargers back. :lol: :roll:

njx9
10-09-2006, 01:56 PM
I like Rivers. Not to take anything away from Manning or Roethlisberger, but I liked Rivers the best coming out of college. I had him as the #1 QB prospect that year and he has been outstanding so far this season.

after his bowl game i was hoping he'd fall to the donks. after the senior bowl, i was a bit upset because i knew he wouldn't.

i think it's too early to really judge anything here, but i'm happy that rivers is looking as good as i thought he would (even if it's for the chargers).

Zim3031
10-09-2006, 02:14 PM
I've always been a big fan of Rivers since he was in a college and it's nice to see him finally have a chance.

And I think Eli's numbers are inflated because of all the 4th quarter yards that he's racking up against prevents. He's still remarkably inconsistent.

Im not gonna beat a dead horse, but that is so far from the truth. He's been great this year, I don't see any of the "knocks" of his game at all this year. But I regress.


:shock: Am I the only one that watched the Seattle game where Eli quickly threw an interception right after his team got a turnover? And he did it again a drive or two later! He just padded his stats while the seahawks were celebrating on the sideline.

And what's with the first three quarters he played against Philly? If he decided to play better then he wouldn't have needed a miracle Eagles choke to win it

Eli's had one game where he's played a full good 4 quarters. I've yet to see why he's a top ten QB at this point.

Yes, Seattle was the one game where at the start he made 2 poor decisions in a row. But look after the first 2 possessions. Even after that he played great. Its not his fault his guys fumbled and a pick occured off the hands of his own receiver. And say what you want about "padding stats". The Seahawks tried their heart out half way through the 4th to stop him because he was legitimately bringing us back, and still couldn't stop him.

And Philly? He was on the entire game. The only reason why his numbers dropped were because he was getting sacked every play in the 2nd and 3rd quarter. That was the olines fault. When he had protection, he carved up the Eagles every chance he got. As a guy who studies each Giant game like no tomorrow, trust me on this, Im not making it up.

After those two bad plays by him the game was already 21-0. The game was already starting to become a rout in the first quarter. I didn't even count the third one because it was practically his only good throw in the 1st half.

And I've seen that eagles game. Eli held on to the ball for waaay to long throughout the majority of that game.

I'm not by any means calling him a bad quarterback. But he's been inconsistent, and the Giants record has reflected that thus far.

Number 10
10-09-2006, 02:22 PM
I've always been a big fan of Rivers since he was in a college and it's nice to see him finally have a chance.

And I think Eli's numbers are inflated because of all the 4th quarter yards that he's racking up against prevents. He's still remarkably inconsistent.

Im not gonna beat a dead horse, but that is so far from the truth. He's been great this year, I don't see any of the "knocks" of his game at all this year. But I regress.


:shock: Am I the only one that watched the Seattle game where Eli quickly threw an interception right after his team got a turnover? And he did it again a drive or two later! He just padded his stats while the seahawks were celebrating on the sideline.

And what's with the first three quarters he played against Philly? If he decided to play better then he wouldn't have needed a miracle Eagles choke to win it

Eli's had one game where he's played a full good 4 quarters. I've yet to see why he's a top ten QB at this point.

Yes, Seattle was the one game where at the start he made 2 poor decisions in a row. But look after the first 2 possessions. Even after that he played great. Its not his fault his guys fumbled and a pick occured off the hands of his own receiver. And say what you want about "padding stats". The Seahawks tried their heart out half way through the 4th to stop him because he was legitimately bringing us back, and still couldn't stop him.

And Philly? He was on the entire game. The only reason why his numbers dropped were because he was getting sacked every play in the 2nd and 3rd quarter. That was the olines fault. When he had protection, he carved up the Eagles every chance he got. As a guy who studies each Giant game like no tomorrow, trust me on this, Im not making it up.

After those two bad plays by him the game was already 21-0. The game was already starting to become a rout in the first quarter. I didn't even count the third one because it was practically his only good throw in the 1st half.

And I've seen that eagles game. Eli held on to the ball for waaay to long throughout the majority of that game.

I'm not by any means calling him a bad quarterback. But he's been inconsistent, and the Giants record has reflected that thus far.

Wow.

Eli did NOT hold onto the ball too long in Philly. The O-line got beat time after time before Eli made his drop. If anything, he did a good job at avoiding 10+ sacks for crying out loud.

And he has actually been fairly consistent in his first 4 games, often ending with similar stats when it comes to completion percentage and QB rating. And the main reason for the .500 start is mainly attributed to the schedule (14-5 combined record of oppenents already played).

VoteLynnSwan
10-09-2006, 02:50 PM
Who is the greatest QB of all time? The stats would lead you to believe it would be Dan Marino, however most people would say someone like Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas was the best.

The measure of a QB's greatness is Superbowl Rings. How many do Eli and Rivers have? Ben is the best until one of those guys step up and win it for themselves, and i don't care that Ben had a great team around him, he still has more superbowl rings than the other two combined.

10-09-2006, 02:52 PM
I would say Rivers right now but it is pretty close between him and Eli

Number 10
10-09-2006, 02:54 PM
Who is the greatest QB of all time? The stats would lead you to believe it would be Dan Marino, however most people would say someone like Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas was the best.

The measure of a QB's greatness is Superbowl Rings. How many do Eli and Rivers have? Ben is the best until one of those guys step up and win it for themselves, and i don't care that Ben had a great team around him, he still has more superbowl rings than the other two combined.

Lame argument unless he finishes off his career with 5 rings and the Eli/Rivers combo has 2.

Trent Dilfer has a ring. Is he better than Peyton Manning? Donovan McNabb? Carson Palmer? Matt Hasselbeck?

Not all of the top QBs can get a ring.

Shiver
10-09-2006, 03:09 PM
Who is the greatest QB of all time? The stats would lead you to believe it would be Dan Marino, however most people would say someone like Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas was the best.

The measure of a QB's greatness is Superbowl Rings. How many do Eli and Rivers have? Ben is the best until one of those guys step up and win it for themselves, and i don't care that Ben had a great team around him, he still has more superbowl rings than the other two combined.

Lame argument unless he finishes off his career with 5 rings and the Eli/Rivers combo has 2.

Trent Dilfer has a ring. Is he better than Peyton Manning? Donovan McNabb? Carson Palmer? Matt Hasselbeck?

Not all of the top QBs can get a ring.

That is by far the worst argument in the history of sports. Ben Roethlisberger didn't win jack, let alone the Super Bowl, which they were lucky to win based on his play. Super Bowls do not mean anything for a QB. Football is the ultimate team sport, statistics have shown you need a running game and a great defense to win, not a QB.

CC.SD
10-10-2006, 02:34 PM
The fact that it's even debatable between Rivers and Eli ALREADY, after 4 GAMES as a starter, means that Rivers is winning.

bigbluedefense
10-10-2006, 02:59 PM
The fact that it's even debatable between Rivers and Eli ALREADY, after 4 GAMES as a starter, means that Rivers is winning.

Most will tell you that this debate is far too premature. We're all jumping on the bandwagon like we did with Roethlisberger last year. Rivers is gonna be a great qb, but to even have this debate right now is absurd. I wouldn't even stack him up with Roethlisberger yet. Even though I predict he'll be better than Ben, to compare him right now to even Ben is absurd. Its waaaay too early.

10-10-2006, 03:12 PM
I'll take the ring, after all that is what this game is about. :wink:

I don't give a damn about stats, just "W"s. Also, are you talking about just the first 5 weeks of the season or their whole careers? Because to base something of 5 games is a bunch of bull.

Give Ben a break as well, i bet there aren't many people who can go through what he did and even be on the field right now.

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2006, 03:29 PM
Look at the difference in offenses as well. The giants are are mainly an offense team. The Chargers compare more closely. Both have similar offensive styles and Defensive styles. Ben didn't get Groomed as both of those guys did by once pro-bowl QB's either, he got dropped right into the game, and he did well. I don't care if he was only a game manager.. he won what his first 15+ games his rookie Season? Youngest kid to ever be in a superbowl?

His play this season has a lot of reasoning. The Wideouts aren't making the plays they normally do. Hines has dropped alot of balls and hasn't gotten open. None of the other guys are really making an impact. Willie Parker isn't a Power Rusher. The Oline is playing horrid.

Now i'm not trying to give Ben's play excuses, it has been bad. He has had alot happen to him this off-season and i'm sure his confidence is struck.

But Christ. He led the Steelers to 2 Afc Championships and a Superbowl in his first two Years.


If you want to make a fair Comparison... Lets compare each guys first 5 games:


Ben went: 84 of 117 (72%), 7 touchdowns, 2 INTS, Avg QB Rating: 107

Eli Went : 55 of 149 (40%), 3 Touchdowns, 7 INTS, Avg QB Rating: 45

Phil went(4 games): 70 of 105 (67%), 5 touchdowns, 2 INTs, AVG Qb Rating: 99.5


Right now I think Rivers has the potential to break out and be the best of the group, but just because Ben is in a funk this season, doesn't mean he's not just as good as Eli, or Phillip.

bigbluedefense
10-10-2006, 03:38 PM
Look at the difference in offenses as well. The giants are are mainly an offense team. The Chargers compare more closely. Both have similar offensive styles and Defensive styles. Ben didn't get Groomed as both of those guys did by once pro-bowl QB's either, he got dropped right into the game, and he did well. I don't care if he was only a game manager.. he won what his first 15+ games his rookie Season? Youngest kid to ever be in a superbowl?

His play this season has a lot of reasoning. The Wideouts aren't making the plays they normally do. Hines has dropped alot of balls and hasn't gotten open. None of the other guys are really making an impact. Willie Parker isn't a Power Rusher. The Oline is playing horrid.

Now i'm not trying to give Ben's play excuses, it has been bad. He has had alot happen to him this off-season and i'm sure his confidence is struck.

But Christ. He led the Steelers to 2 Afc Championships and a Superbowl in his first two Years.


If you want to make a fair Comparison... Lets compare each guys first 5 games:


Ben went: 84 of 117 (72%), 7 touchdowns, 2 INTS, Avg QB Rating: 107

Eli Went : 55 of 149 (40%), 3 Touchdowns, 7 INTS, Avg QB Rating: 45

Phil went(4 games): 70 of 105 (67%), 5 touchdowns, 2 INTs, AVG Qb Rating: 99.5


Right now I think Rivers has the potential to break out and be the best of the group, but just because Ben is in a *********** this season, doesn't mean he's not just as good as Eli, or Phillip.

Yes, finally, someone came out and defended Roethlisberger. Ben is being thrashed as a horrible qb right now which is not true. He's still a good qb. But I warn you, don't compare first games, those teams are so different that that means nothing. Eli's first start, he had no oline whatsoever, no WRs at that time, and he played the part of the season where the team gave up. Ben had that all world team around him, and Rivers has great talent around him for his 5 first starts. So thats deceiving.

I think when evaluating these 3 guys, ultimately its gonna come down to Eli and Rivers. Im taking Eli because he's proven his clutchness, he has the best pocket presence, and he's the most cerebral of the 3. Rivers accuracy is being a little exxaggerated, he tends to float balls a little too much, and his side arm delivery could get him in trouble. Once teams get some film of this guy, they'll give him a hard time. He's also not as good as Eli or Ben in the pocket, in terms of buying time.

Everyone is so quick to either rip on Eli or Ben, because they have so many haters, that once they see an oppurtunity to do that, like here with Rivers, they jump on it and ride it to the ground. Rivers is good, will be great, but everyone is jumping on the bandwagon way too prematurely.

TitleTown088
10-10-2006, 04:08 PM
rivers and Eli are a toss up for me, i'd rather not have big ben on my team now. dosent he have like 9 INts and no Td's?

ShutDwn
10-10-2006, 04:18 PM
Look at the difference in offenses as well. The giants are are mainly an offense team. The Chargers compare more closely. Both have similar offensive styles and Defensive styles. Ben didn't get Groomed as both of those guys did by once pro-bowl QB's either, he got dropped right into the game, and he did well. I don't care if he was only a game manager.. he won what his first 15+ games his rookie Season? Youngest kid to ever be in a superbowl?

His play this season has a lot of reasoning. The Wideouts aren't making the plays they normally do. Hines has dropped alot of balls and hasn't gotten open. None of the other guys are really making an impact. Willie Parker isn't a Power Rusher. The Oline is playing horrid.

Now i'm not trying to give Ben's play excuses, it has been bad. He has had alot happen to him this off-season and i'm sure his confidence is struck.

But Christ. He led the Steelers to 2 Afc Championships and a Superbowl in his first two Years.


If you want to make a fair Comparison... Lets compare each guys first 5 games:


Ben went: 84 of 117 (72%), 7 touchdowns, 2 INTS, Avg QB Rating: 107

Eli Went : 55 of 149 (40%), 3 Touchdowns, 7 INTS, Avg QB Rating: 45

Phil went(4 games): 70 of 105 (67%), 5 touchdowns, 2 INTs, AVG Qb Rating: 99.5


Right now I think Rivers has the potential to break out and be the best of the group, but just because Ben is in a *********** this season, doesn't mean he's not just as good as Eli, or Phillip.


Ben never led the Steelers at all.

The fact that he is the only QB to play that badly and win a SB speaks volumes.

He hasn't proven to be anything more than a game manager.

Number 10
10-10-2006, 04:29 PM
The Steelers did not win the Super Bowl because of Ben. Ben won the Super Bowl because of the Steelers.

Keep in mind that the best game out of a Steelers QB this season has come from the likes of Charlie Batch.

I want to avoid trashing Ben, but I can't let anyone get away with saying he is the best QB in this class.

AlexDown
10-10-2006, 04:38 PM
The Steelers did not win the Super Bowl because of Ben. Ben won the Super Bowl because of the Steelers.

Keep in mind that the best game out of a Steelers QB this season has come from the likes of Charlie Batch.

I want to avoid trashing Ben, but I can't let anyone get away with saying he is the best QB in this class.

The first season Big Ben played he helped to get his team to the playoffs and finish with a 15-1 record. He didn't play well in the post season.

The second season when he was hurt, the steelers lost games when he was not starting. He played pretty good in the playoffs last year, with the exception of the superbowl. What did the Stealers finish last year 11-5? If he missed another game, they probably would not have made the playoffs without him. I don't really understand how you can belittle the importance he was to his team last year and say that he won a ring just because of his supporting players around him. They would not have even gotten into the playoffs last year without him, based on how the steelers played when he was absent.

cgf
10-10-2006, 04:42 PM
Rivers is looking like the real deal. And Big ben has proven that he can win in the playoffs. However Eli is my favorite as he's proven he can be clutch and a stat machine. Also Losman has shown he can make big plays.

derza222
10-10-2006, 04:44 PM
Big Ben is little more than a game manager, he can't take a team on his back and throw his way to a victory if the run game isn't clicking or the defense isn't playing well. They run it down people's throats and play great defense in Pitt, Ben is just relied on for a few passes and he really only needs to avoid mistakes. I'll take Rivers or Eli over Roethlisberger any day of the week, Ben gets too much hype from ESPN, and the other two are better IMO. Between the two it's close but I like Rivers at this point, just personal preference I really think it's difficult to say one is better. We'll all get the answer down the road to who is the best of the three, I just don't think it's going to be Roethlisberger.

LonghornsLegend
10-10-2006, 04:44 PM
The Steelers did not win the Super Bowl because of Ben. Ben won the Super Bowl because of the Steelers.

Keep in mind that the best game out of a Steelers QB this season has come from the likes of Charlie Batch.

I want to avoid trashing Ben, but I can't let anyone get away with saying he is the best QB in this class.


but listen, however you look at it....


ben led them to 2 afc championships and a super bowl win, if he were as terrible as he was supposed to be that would not of been a problem...he faced manning in the playoffs and a denver team....so what you want, but a terrible qb doesnt come out a winner in those games i dont care how good the D or surrounding players were....that steelers D wasnt the greatest of all time, just solid, they didnt ask ben to do much, but he didnt make mistakes either.....


so like said, its hard to say either of the two are better until they go further.....rivers talk is pre mature, like bbd said he has played one good game, if he plays a bad one everyone will jump right off, eli has haters but shows he wins games in the clutch or when it counts, thats really all that matters.....i think he has to make an nfc champ game to make noise in this argument, eli has MORE then enough talent, and more talent then big ben had that year....he needs to go far in the playoffs, and take weight on his shoulder, peyton takes a team not as strong deep every year, eli has more talent to do that, he needs to take charge...


Ben hasnt showed he can lead a sub par team yet, so the verdicts still out, but right now it HAS to be....


1. Ben
2. Eli
3. Rivers


Sorry but i cannot put Ben last due to 4 bad games after all he's went through, and i cannot put rivers first due to one solid game....and i will not put eli up top over ben because ben when on his game doesnt make mistakes that cost his team, you guys might not think its important, but drew bledsoe's my teams qb so i know about that....


ive seen eli win so many games late in the game for a qb his age its crazy, you want you qb to have that, and know he has it early on, but he has to at least make an nfl champ game in the next 2 years with all that talent he has or he cannot go over ben...i dotn care what your name is, its tough to go to two afc champ games as a rookie and 2nd year qb, dont care who your qb is....


there have been a few who could pull it off with a solid team, but its tough regardless due to being so young and just learning the position...



i

cgf
10-10-2006, 04:51 PM
We all know that Big Ben has proven able to win big game with his steelers, but unlike Eli he has yet to show that he can win a game on his own.

Shiver
10-10-2006, 05:15 PM
Ben hasn't "led" the Steelers in any regards. There is a standing mis-conception that "W-L" is directly related to a Quarterback, the postion lends itself to receiving more credit when things are going a-okay. The fact is; Roethlisberger hasn't "won" nearly as many games as other Quarterbacks. This season, the diapers came off, Ken Wisenhunt said that they will put the game in Ben's hands and it's failed miserably. The Steelers were better off with Charlie Batch.

BUSTKUNTLAWL
10-10-2006, 05:41 PM
I really really like Rivers.

I thought he would be the best QB out of those 3 when he got drafted and I still believe that right now.

He has that intangible that you can't point out but he has it.

Not to mention he's got all the physical tools.

He's going to be a big time QB for a while IMO.

Number 10
10-10-2006, 05:46 PM
I really really like Rivers.

I thought he would be the best QB out of those 3 when he got drafted and I still believe that right now.

He has that intangible that you can't point out but he has it.

Not to mention he's got all the physical tools.

He's going to be a big time QB for a while IMO.

When you say "that intangible".....what do you mean? Do you mean leading a team to vicotry late in the game?

cgf
10-10-2006, 05:48 PM
I really really like Rivers.

I thought he would be the best QB out of those 3 when he got drafted and I still believe that right now.

He has that intangible that you can't point out but he has it.

Not to mention he's got all the physical tools.

He's going to be a big time QB for a while IMO.

When you say "that intangible".....what do you mean? Do you mean leading a team to vicotry late in the game?

He has an insanely fast release.

Zim3031
10-10-2006, 05:49 PM
Rivers reminds so much of Bernie Kosar. He's even got the funky throwing motion to boot :wink:

marks01234
10-10-2006, 06:19 PM
I got to say Rivers.

Big Ben is a great game manager and a guy who will do it all for his team to win. That being said, he isn't in Rivers or Eli league as a pure QB standpoint right now. It's like comparing Willie Parker to Tiki Barber. Yea, Parker has the SB ring and is very good but there is still no comparsion.

bigbluedefense, you like to point out how you want to see more of Rivers before rushing to call him the greatest. While, I agree with you in this regard - Rivers does need to substain this for a full season. But the same can and should be said about Eli. It wasn't to long ago that Eli was throwing 4 picks in the playoffs and making boneheaded decisions. Are you fully confident he has put all of those mistakes behind him?

As for comparing their O's. Eli plays in a much wilder open O that allows him to put up bigger numbers. I expect PR's #'s to go up significantly as better teams key on LT. Both guys have pretty bad OL's and while Gates and LT are upgrades over Barber and Shockey, Burress is a huge asset for a QB. Throw Toomer, and those two alone compensate for two or three Manning mistakes a game.

dcarey20
10-10-2006, 06:20 PM
wow everyone is jumping on the rivers bandwagon now...i loved him at nc state i think he's the best. chargers are my second favorite team and i was so happy when they got him.

he can make all the throws, and he showed great poise against a defense that he had never seen before, a defense that gives you a lot of looks, and a defense that needed a win.

Shiver
10-10-2006, 06:21 PM
wow everyone is jumping on the rivers bandwagon now...i loved him at nc state i think he's the best. chargers are my second favorite team and i was so happy when they got him.

he can make all the throws, and he showed great poise against a defense that he had never seen before, a defense that gives you a lot of looks, and a defense that needed a win.


Dick LeBeau + Two weeks of preperation and game film and they still couldn't rattle him.

dcarey20
10-10-2006, 06:23 PM
wow everyone is jumping on the rivers bandwagon now...i loved him at nc state i think he's the best. chargers are my second favorite team and i was so happy when they got him.

he can make all the throws, and he showed great poise against a defense that he had never seen before, a defense that gives you a lot of looks, and a defense that needed a win.


Dick LeBeau + Two weeks of preperation and game film and they still couldn't rattle him.

it was awesome watching him finally get an oppurtunity to make some plays.

Basileus777
10-10-2006, 06:28 PM
I don't understand how someone can call Ben a game managed and system qb and praise Rivers at the same time. Rivers is in the exact same situation Ben was for the last two years, you can't judge them differently. Ben is having a bad year and he isn't as good as many hyped him up to be yet, but he isn't getting enough credit for what he did for the Steelers last year. Ben won them 2 critical playoff games when their run game wasn't hot. He was doing more than managing the game against Indie and Denver. He played terrible in the Superbowl, but the Steelers would never have made the playoffs without Ben. If anything this year is demonstrating just how important Ben was to Steelers last year. I don't know why he is playing so poorly, but it isn't because he is really being asked to do anything more than he did last year.

jackalope
10-10-2006, 07:03 PM
i think Rivers will turn out to be the best. i'm not exactly sure why but it's just a gut feeling.

eli will be good but not great. he'll never reach the level of Peyton.

Big Ben will be the worst QB except for the win column. i'm not saying he'll be bad but he'll never be an allstar QB or a stat machine.

10-10-2006, 08:40 PM
i think Rivers will turn out to be the best. i'm not exactly sure why but it's just a gut feeling.

eli will be good but not great. he'll never reach the level of Peyton.

Big Ben will be the worst QB except for the win column. i'm not saying he'll be bad but he'll never be an allstar QB or a stat machine.

I'll take "W"s and rings any-day over stats.

Who would you rather have Terry Bradshaw or Dan Marino.


Also, to all those who say Ben is nothing more than a game manager, so Eli or Phil is better because they actually win games for their teams...SHUT UP! So what? big deal he only game manager, what is his teams record when he is playing and when he is not? EXACTLY!

How many rings do Rivers and Manning have?...for that case how many rings does Peyton Manning, Trent Green, Carson Palmer have...uhhh 0, but don't forget their stats are amazing, thats all that really matters right? :roll: The game is about WINNING not stats.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-10-2006, 08:41 PM
i think Rivers will turn out to be the best. i'm not exactly sure why but it's just a gut feeling.

eli will be good but not great. he'll never reach the level of Peyton.

Big Ben will be the worst QB except for the win column. i'm not saying he'll be bad but he'll never be an allstar QB or a stat machine.

I'll take "W"s and rings any-day over stats.

Who would you rather have Terry Bradshaw or Dan Marino.


Also, to all those who say Ben is nothing more than a game manager, so Eli or Phil is better because they actually win games for their teams...SHUT UP! So what? big deal he only game manager, what is his teams record when he is playing and when he is not? EXACTLY!

How many rings do Rivers and Manning have?...for that case how many rings does Peyton Manning, Trent Green, Carson Palmer have...uhhh 0, but don't forget their stats are amazing, thats all that really matters right? :roll: The game is about WINNING not stats.


The game is about a TEAM not one player.

Smooth Criminal
10-10-2006, 09:07 PM
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.

keylime_5
10-10-2006, 09:08 PM
Roethlisberger despite his stinky streak

Shiver
10-10-2006, 09:43 PM
QB's get too much love for when they win and too much bitchin for when they lose.


Ding, Ding, Ding...


We have a winner!

Shiver
10-10-2006, 09:44 PM
I don't understand how someone can call Ben a game managed and system qb and praise Rivers at the same time. Rivers is in the exact same situation Ben was for the last two years, you can't judge them differently. Ben is having a bad year and he isn't as good as many hyped him up to be yet, but he isn't getting enough credit for what he did for the Steelers last year. Ben won them 2 critical playoff games when their run game wasn't hot. He was doing more than managing the game against Indie and Denver. He played terrible in the Superbowl, but the Steelers would never have made the playoffs without Ben. If anything this year is demonstrating just how important Ben was to Steelers last year. I don't know why he is playing so poorly, but it isn't because he is really being asked to do anything more than he did last year.


Were you watching the same Sunday Night game I was?! Rivers threw the ball 40-time, the Steelers shut down LT and Turner, and he faced a Dick LeBeau defense that had two weeks to prepare and he still excelled. He is much more than Ben has ever been.

I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.

"single handedly" doesn't apply in the NFL, first of all. Secondly he had the worst performance of any Super Bowl winning team ever, he didn't "win" the game.

cgf
10-10-2006, 09:45 PM
QB's get too much love for when they win and too much bitchin for when they lose.


Ding, Ding, Ding...


We have a winner!

:wink:

Number 10
10-10-2006, 09:48 PM
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.

Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-10-2006, 09:59 PM
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.

Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?


In all fairness, the Super Bowl winning Kurt Warner was a hell of a player, League MVP, in a whole different league from Dilfer and Johnson.

Windy
10-10-2006, 10:06 PM
Predicted Stats based on the 7r-2 Formula founded by Students at Cooper Union:


PhillipRivers-2 Super Bowl Victories Hall of Famer 4-Time All Star 2-Time MVP

EliManning-1 Super Bowl Victory 4-Time All Star One MVP


BenRoethlisberger-1 Super Bowl Victory 5-Time All Star Hall of Famer

Basileus777
10-10-2006, 11:02 PM
He is much more than Ben has ever been.

I like Rivers and I think he is going to be a very good qb, but you give him too much credit too early and are really discounting Ben. I have never been a fan of Ben and have criticized him, but you are taking it to the extreme. He isn't an elite qb yet, but he has proved he can do more than manage the game. He proved that on the highest stage last year. In the AFC championship at Mile High he went 21/29 for 275 and 2 tds when his running game was averaging 2.7 ypc. That is doing more than managing the game. Without Ben or when he is playing poorly (like this year) the Steelers just aren't a very good team, that alone proves how valuable he is. Saying that Rivers is more now than Ben has ever been is absurd.

10-11-2006, 11:50 AM
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.

Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?


YES, considering that is the point of the game. :roll:

ricky bobby
10-11-2006, 12:01 PM
I can't wait to see how many of you guys are going to jump off the Rivers band wagon once he plays a bad game. Five games into his career, and i'm already seeing people calling him a future 2 time MVP, 2 time superbowl winner, etc. Hey guys, back to reality, as much as you dislike Manning for forcing a trade to the giants, he's proven to be the best QB so far, out of that draft class.

Number 10
10-11-2006, 12:48 PM
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.

Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?


YES, considering that is the point of the game. :roll:

Correct me if I am wrong.

But you would take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, and Brad Johnson over Dan Marino.

Smooth Criminal
10-11-2006, 02:11 PM
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.

Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?

Yes. I completely believe that Ben made this team what it was last year. He played great games in the playoffs. Against Denver and Indy he was great putting points on the board early. I don't think Rivers or Manning would have been able to do what Ben did last post season.

And to your question, No I would take Marino. But to be fair, Ben is better than all of those guys and Manning and Rivers will never be as good as Marino.

Jughead10
10-11-2006, 02:12 PM
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.

Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?

Yes. I completely believe that Ben made this team what it was last year. He played great games in the playoffs. Against Denver and Indy he was great putting points on the board early. I don't think Rivers or Manning would have been able to do what Ben did last post season.

And to your question, No I would take Marino. But to be fair, Ben is better than all of those guys and Manning and Rivers will never be as good as Marino.

Ben has not done anything yet to prove he will be a better player than Warner and Simms were.

Smooth Criminal
10-11-2006, 02:15 PM
I can't wait to see how many of you guys are going to jump off the Rivers band wagon once he plays a bad game. Five games into his career, and i'm already seeing people calling him a future 2 time MVP, 2 time superbowl winner, etc. Hey guys, back to reality, as much as you dislike Manning for forcing a trade to the giants, he's proven to be the best QB so far, out of that draft class.

I'd love your exlanation as to why Eli is the best.

Ben has been so much better. He has been to the AFC Championship twice already. He led the team on the road and beat probably the 4 best teams in the league in the playoffs and superbowl last year.

Lets see Eli win a playoff game before we say he's the best.

Smooth Criminal
10-11-2006, 02:19 PM
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.

Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?

Yes. I completely believe that Ben made th is team what it was last year. He played great games in the playoffs. Against Denver and Indy he was great putting points on the board early. I don't think Rivers or Manning would have been able to do what Ben did last post season.

And to your question, No I would take Marino. But to be fair, Ben is better than all of those guys and Manning and Rivers will never be as good as Marino.

Ben has not done anything yet to prove he will be a better player than Warner and Simms were.

Going to the AFC Championship in his first two seasons is nothing then right. How bout ROTY. Fact is Ben has now played two very good seasons and has a great career ahead on him.

The thought of him being a fluke was acceptable after one good year but after playing good his first two seasons its pretty obivous he will be a great QB for along time. Sure he is in s lump right now but you can't expect him to stay there with the way he has played his first two years.

cgf
10-11-2006, 02:22 PM
See he didn't play great. He was an average QB he wasn't rattled in the playoffs. now he has great tools and could become a great QB but just winning a lot doesn't make someone a great QB in a team game like Football.

Jughead10
10-11-2006, 02:22 PM
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.

Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?

Yes. I completely believe that Ben made th is team what it was last year. He played great games in the playoffs. Against Denver and Indy he was great putting points on the board early. I don't think Rivers or Manning would have been able to do what Ben did last post season.

And to your question, No I would take Marino. But to be fair, Ben is better than all of those guys and Manning and Rivers will never be as good as Marino.

Ben has not done anything yet to prove he will be a better player than Warner and Simms were.

Going to the AFC Championship in his first two seasons is nothing then right. How bout ROTY. Fact is Ben has now played two very good seasons and has a great career ahead on him.

The thought of him being a fluke was acceptable after one good year but after playing good his first two seasons its pretty obivous he will be a great QB for along time. Sure he is in s lump right now but you can't expect him to stay there with the way he has played his first two years.

The thought of him being a fluke is perfectly acceptable after watching what happens when the Steelers open up the offense for him and he is forced to pass the ball the same amount of times as normal QBs. Difference so far is Ben was drafted onto an already great team. Where most young QBs don't have that luxury, they are forced to take lumps while their team improves.

Ben and Simms are almost polar opposites to me. Simms had probably the greatest single Super Bowl performance for a winning QB, while Ben had the worst.

Windy
10-11-2006, 03:02 PM
I am not a Roethlisberger fan nor a Steelers fan. Do any of you think the Motorcycle Injury and the Appendectomy(sp) had an effect on his play this year? Those also come with psychological problems as well. It seems like he is getting trashed on this site but he does deserve some slack imo.

Vikes99ej
10-11-2006, 03:26 PM
For fantasy football I'd take Eli, but to win games I'd take Ben. But the way it's looking now, I'd take Eli for both areas.

Smooth Criminal
10-11-2006, 04:48 PM
I am not a Roethlisberger fan nor a Steelers fan. Do any of you think the Motorcycle Injury and the Appendectomy(sp) had an effect on his play this year? Those also come with psychological problems as well. It seems like he is getting trashed on this site but he does deserve some slack imo.

He has always gotten trashed on this site. Most fans here go off of stats and Ben doesn't have the best stats so theyn write him off without seeing many of his games to notice the plays that he actually does make.

No, I don't think its to motorcycle or the apendectomy that are effecting him. I don't remember hearing about any brian injuries in either of those and thats what has been hurting him, his decision making.

Ben isn't the reason this team is 1-3. A weak recieving core, bad offensive line play and bad defense have been the downfall of this team. Ben has played bad as well but he isn't the main reason we are doing bad. Watch our line get killed on every play and then look downfield and every reciever is covered. There is simply nothing he can do with the ball other than try to throw it up and make a play.

Smooth Criminal
10-11-2006, 04:50 PM
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.

Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?

Yes. I completely believe that Ben made th is team what it was last year. He played great games in the playoffs. Against Denver and Indy he was great putting points on the board early. I don't think Rivers or Manning would have been able to do what Ben did last post season.

And to your question, No I would take Marino. But to be fair, Ben is better than all of those guys and Manning and Rivers will never be as good as Marino.

Ben has not done anything yet to prove he will be a better player than Warner and Simms were.

Going to the AFC Championship in his first two seasons is nothing then right. How bout ROTY. Fact is Ben has now played two very good seasons and has a great career ahead on him.

The thought of him being a fluke was acceptable after one good year but after playing good his first two seasons its pretty obivous he will be a great QB for along time. Sure he is in s lump right now but you can't expect him to stay there with the way he has played his first two years.

The thought of him being a fluke is perfectly acceptable after watching what happens when the Steelers open up the offense for him and he is forced to pass the ball the same amount of times as normal QBs. Difference so far is Ben was drafted onto an already great team. Where most young QBs don't have that luxury, they are forced to take lumps while their team improves.

Ben and Simms are almost polar opposites to me. Simms had probably the greatest single Super Bowl performance for a winning QB, while Ben had the worst.

I love how everyone thinks Ben was put ona superbowl calibur team. The Steelers were 6-10 the year they drafted Ben and they didn't make any huge improvements other than drafting Ben. Once they added Ben they went to 15-1. He wasn't just put on a great team. He is what made the team good.

ricky bobby
10-11-2006, 06:29 PM
I don't even know why i put big ben into the conversation. 0 TDs 7 INTs, i'd be better off putting matt schaub as a choice. Hmm, would i rather have a qb that has 9 TDs and 5 INTs, and a completion percentage of 67%. ...... Or would i take a guy that has proved that if his team relies on him to win, he'll stink it up. I could've handed the ball off to Jerome Bettis and Willie Parker, and let the defense do the rest. Manning wins games, Ben Manages games, and manages them poorly at that.

Rivers has looked pretty good, i must admitt. But taking what you've seen of him in 5 games, and rating him above Eli Manning is just absurd. Some people are just too obsessed with potential. You'll jump off the band wagon once he puts a few bad back to back games together. By your reasoning, you'd also take Rivers over Peyton because eli's stats are better than peyton's this year.

bigbluedefense
10-11-2006, 07:08 PM
I can't wait to see how many of you guys are going to jump off the Rivers band wagon once he plays a bad game. Five games into his career, and i'm already seeing people calling him a future 2 time MVP, 2 time superbowl winner, etc. Hey guys, back to reality, as much as you dislike Manning for forcing a trade to the giants, he's proven to be the best QB so far, out of that draft class.

I don't even know why i put big ben into the conversation. 0 TDs 7 INTs, i'd be better off putting matt schaub as a choice. Hmm, would i rather have a qb that has 9 TDs and 5 INTs, and a completion percentage of 67%. ...... Or would i take a guy that has proved that if his team relies on him to win, he'll stink it up. I could've handed the ball off to Jerome Bettis and Willie Parker, and let the defense do the rest. Manning wins games, Ben Manages games, and manages them poorly at that.

Rivers has looked pretty good, i must admitt. But taking what you've seen of him in 5 games, and rating him above Eli Manning is just absurd. Some people are just too obsessed with potential. You'll jump off the band wagon once he puts a few bad back to back games together. By your reasoning, you'd also take Rivers over Peyton because eli's stats are better than peyton's this year.

And that pretty much sums up this debate in a nutshell. You hit it on the head, although I do believe that we are all bashing Roethlisber a little too much.

Windy
10-11-2006, 07:24 PM
Eli Manning is a Lou Bega. Perpetual Irrelevence and Ron Popeil.
I think moneys. I think Eli is great now but not Elite. He may never be "elite" espn once said that lamar wouldnt. i think we need to buy the hopes of the onedays. Eli is a prospect of excellence. He could one day be hofer but imo he wont. phil rivers is better than eli and so is rexy grossmans. eli is better than alex smith and ben roethlisberger. tiki barber lifts the team whole. he is a hofer no doubt bout it. i think we need a special committee on the protection of jason campbells future commodities. for more info please contact Wall Street Johnson who is the ultimate fighter. eli is NOT better than hasslebeck, brees, or palmer. i classify him as great or good but not elite. he has the potentials. i wouldnt mind him becoming a floridian. ole miss develops great guys and players. ole miss rebels new feature back presents great futures. curty granderson>johnny damon. i think oakland sporting bay area athletics dominates regional sporting goods worldwide organizational duty. the elite prospects include: brady leaf, sal pasquerelli, lou mizz, and brock marion. bob sakamono once ate a horse. he is friend of kremer who owns kremerica. darren was an intern with kramerica. oil bladder contraption didnt work helllloooooooo.

Number 10
10-11-2006, 07:46 PM
If anything, Ben recieved too much love on this site. I don't see how anyone can put in the claim that he gets bashed too easily. I'll try to sum up my thoughts briefly...


I admire Ben more than you believe, and as of right now I have him ranked as my #10 QB in the league right behind Eli. Prior to the 2004 draft, I was calling for Ben so that we could get our franchise guy and keep all of our picks, which we obviously could have used. But after watching almost every single one of both their games in the NFL, I am feeling much more secure with Eli at the helm than I would be with Ben calling the shots.

Physically, there is not too much of a difference. They both have similar arm strength in terms of short, intermediate routes and deep balls. If you want to give the edge to Ben there, be my guest, I won't fight it too hard because the difference, if any, is minimal. Ben is also faster and more effective outside of the pocket, a dimension I sometimes wish Eli had. So if you want to compare the two from a physical standpoint, I have to give a slight edge to Ben.

But where Eli really creates seperation in this debate is in the intangibles area. He has proved time after time that he can take the game into his own hands when it matters most and lead his team to victory. He never lets pressure get to his head, even though he is playing in arguably the most difficult market in the football world. His comeback victories and late game heroics are not luck because he continues to do the same thing time and time again. He also has a little "Peyton" in him in the sense that he studies to no end during the season and during the offseason. I have a buddy that works at the Stadium all year for practices and workouts and he said Eli was there more often than any of the coaches, including Coughlin. He worked his butt off in the film room and the weight room and I can really tell a huge difference in his play to this point. He clearly was not in the best physical shape last year and was not ready to throw the ball 500+ times, hence why he fell apart late in the year. Eli has not even come close to reaching his full potential because his work ethic parallels Peyton's, and sit there and think about how much Peyton has progressed since his second season as a starter.

Yes, I realize Ben has a ring, yada yada yada. I already stated that it does not take a special QB to win a Super Bowl to say the least. To say that the Steelers had a simple offense that relied on the running game and strong defensive play would be an understatement. It seems now that the running game is being contained, Ben is not even sniffing the success he had the past couple years. I know he will improve over the course of the season, but I don't see him maintaining the level of play his numbers indicated his first two years. His offensive line has been poor, but the Giants line was terrible against the Eagles and what did Eli do? He is able to make adjustments, something Ben still needs to prove. The running game is not there for the Steelers. Well, the running game has been up and down for the Giants, yet Eli has been playing consistently well. The WRs and TE play for the Steelers has been poor. Well, Plaxico Burress is dropping balls every week, Sinorice Moss can't get on the field, Tim Carter has had a few big drops and Shockey is very, VERY banged up. All I heard from the Steelers fans throughout the offseason was how underrated Hines Ward is and how Heath Miller is a legit playmaker. Come on now, you can't have it both ways.

That was a little bit longer than I was intending, but pick it apart if you wish.

bearsfan_51
10-11-2006, 07:47 PM
You said Eli Manning and late game heroics in the same paragraph. That's funny.

Windy
10-11-2006, 07:51 PM
I have an elite section of the Chronicles of Eli.

My rating per se once two four

Drew Brees>Rexy Grossmans>Philly Rivers>Eli Manning>Ben Roethlisberger>Alex Smith

bigbluedefense
10-11-2006, 07:51 PM
You said Eli Manning and late game heroics in the same paragraph. That's funny.

How? He's had a substantial amount of brilliance in the 4th quarter. He's easily the most clutch out of these 3 qbs in terms of coming from behind. That can't even be argued.

Number 10
10-11-2006, 07:53 PM
You said Eli Manning and late game heroics in the same paragraph. That's funny.

I hope that was a joke, for your sake.

Windy
10-11-2006, 07:54 PM
I give Eli an A- for late game heroics. He does that snap well i see. His package isnt as around in him

Basileus777
10-11-2006, 08:08 PM
It seems now that the running game is being contained, Ben is not even sniffing the success he had the past couple years.

Yeah, like that playoff game at Indie or that AFC Championship game at Denver, the running game was really tearing it up then....err wait. I guess I must have imagined Ben winning two playoff games at hostile environments without a running game. And it isn't like Ben dinked and dunked his way to such efficient passing numbers, he led the entire NFL in ypa last year.

Smooth Criminal
10-11-2006, 08:38 PM
In the end it is winning that matters and not stats. We'll see what QB leads his team to the most success.

As of now, I'll take the guy witha 5-1 playoff record and a ring over a guy that hasn't ever won , or scored a point in, a playoff game.

Number 10
10-11-2006, 08:50 PM
In the end it is winning that matters and not stats. We'll see what QB leads his team to the most success.

As of now, I'll take the guy witha 5-1 playoff record and a ring over a guy that hasn't ever won , or scored a point in, a playoff game.

When evaluating QBs at the end of their careers, yes you can do that. But Eli is in his second year as a starter and Ben is in his 3rd. You can't use wins as the basis of your evaluation yet because you don't know what as a fluke and what wasn't.

ricky bobby
10-11-2006, 09:08 PM
In the end it is winning that matters and not stats. We'll see what QB leads his team to the most success.

As of now, I'll take the guy witha 5-1 playoff record and a ring over a guy that hasn't ever won , or scored a point in, a playoff game.

The steelers would have won that super bowl without ben. Don't bother arguing against that one.

AlexDown
10-11-2006, 09:17 PM
In the end it is winning that matters and not stats. We'll see what QB leads his team to the most success.

As of now, I'll take the guy witha 5-1 playoff record and a ring over a guy that hasn't ever won , or scored a point in, a playoff game.

The steelers would have won that super bowl without ben. Don't bother arguing against that one.

They woulden't even have gotten to the postseason last year without him. They were one game away from not making it, and when Ben was out last year pretty sure they went something like 0-3. Don't even bother arguing against that one? Did you evne watch any steeler games last year?

Basileus777
10-11-2006, 09:18 PM
In the end it is winning that matters and not stats. We'll see what QB leads his team to the most success.

As of now, I'll take the guy witha 5-1 playoff record and a ring over a guy that hasn't ever won , or scored a point in, a playoff game.

The steelers might have had a losing record without ben. Don't bother arguing against that one.

Fixed your post.

ricky bobby
10-11-2006, 09:22 PM
In the end it is winning that matters and not stats. We'll see what QB leads his team to the most success.

As of now, I'll take the guy witha 5-1 playoff record and a ring over a guy that hasn't ever won , or scored a point in, a playoff game.

The steelers might have had a losing record without ben. Don't bother arguing against that one.

Fixed your post.

Hey, who has more TDs this season, ben or his backup?
Answer: his backup.

Basileus777
10-11-2006, 09:27 PM
In the end it is winning that matters and not stats. We'll see what QB leads his team to the most success.

As of now, I'll take the guy witha 5-1 playoff record and a ring over a guy that hasn't ever won , or scored a point in, a playoff game.

The steelers might have had a losing record without ben. Don't bother arguing against that one.

Fixed your post.

Hey, who has more TDs this season, ben or his backup?
Answer: his backup.

Hey, what year did the Steelers win the Superbowl? Oh wait, that was last year, before Ben got hurt and started playing like crap. Wasn't that the same year that they struggled when Ben was injured and were a completely different team with him? Didn't their running game also struggle in two road playoff games and Ben had to shoulder the offense for them to win?

ricky bobby
10-11-2006, 09:29 PM
Hey, what year did the Steelers win the Superbowl? Oh wait, that was last year, before Ben got hurt and started playing like crap. Wasn't that the same year that they struggled when Ben was injured and were a completely different team with him?
hey, welcome to 2006. 2005 was last year. Why don't we look at the most relevant statistics, this years.

Basileus777
10-11-2006, 09:31 PM
Hey, what year did the Steelers win the Superbowl? Oh wait, that was last year, before Ben got hurt and started playing like crap. Wasn't that the same year that they struggled when Ben was injured and were a completely different team with him?
hey, welcome to 2006. 2005 was last year. Why don't we look at the most relevant statistics, this years.

When one is talking about whether the Steelers would have won the Superbowl last year without Ben, last years stats are relevant. Sorry. :lol:

Jughead10
10-11-2006, 09:31 PM
I'll take Ben. Sure its me being a homer but look at the way he led us through the playoffs last season. He did alot more than just "manage" games in the playoffs. He single handedly took us to the superbowl. I'll take a superbowl win over a stat record any day.

Two things.

1-Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that Ben single handeldly took you to the Super Bowl?

2-Would you take Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner, Phil Simms, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson...etc over Dan Marino because of a ring?

Yes. I completely believe that Ben made th is team what it was last year. He played great games in the playoffs. Against Denver and Indy he was great putting points on the board early. I don't think Rivers or Manning would have been able to do what Ben did last post season.

And to your question, No I would take Marino. But to be fair, Ben is better than all of those guys and Manning and Rivers will never be as good as Marino.

Ben has not done anything yet to prove he will be a better player than Warner and Simms were.

Going to the AFC Championship in his first two seasons is nothing then right. How bout ROTY. Fact is Ben has now played two very good seasons and has a great career ahead on him.

The thought of him being a fluke was acceptable after one good year but after playing good his first two seasons its pretty obivous he will be a great QB for along time. Sure he is in s lump right now but you can't expect him to stay there with the way he has played his first two years.

The thought of him being a fluke is perfectly acceptable after watching what happens when the Steelers open up the offense for him and he is forced to pass the ball the same amount of times as normal QBs. Difference so far is Ben was drafted onto an already great team. Where most young QBs don't have that luxury, they are forced to take lumps while their team improves.

Ben and Simms are almost polar opposites to me. Simms had probably the greatest single Super Bowl performance for a winning QB, while Ben had the worst.

I love how everyone thinks Ben was put ona superbowl calibur team. The Steelers were 6-10 the year they drafted Ben and they didn't make any huge improvements other than drafting Ben. Once they added Ben they went to 15-1. He wasn't just put on a great team. He is what made the team good.

It is actually pretty pathetic that I know your team better than you! Their was a huge move made that offseason. Getting rid of Tim Lewis and bringing in Dick LeBeau. That was far bigger than bringing in Ben. Once Dick got there that defense became one of the best in the league. Team that with a running game that was always there, and you can just add in an adequate QB to not lose games for you.

Windy
10-11-2006, 09:36 PM
Hey, what year did the Steelers win the Superbowl? Oh wait, that was last year, before Ben got hurt and started playing like crap. Wasn't that the same year that they struggled when Ben was injured and were a completely different team with him?
hey, welcome to 2006. 2005 was last year. Why don't we look at the most relevant statistics, this years.

When one is talking about whether the Steelers would have won the Superbowl last year without Ben, last years stats are relevant. Sorry. :lol:


last years stats do matter. you cant just base everything on the few games he has played this year.

Jughead10
10-11-2006, 09:39 PM
Hey, what year did the Steelers win the Superbowl? Oh wait, that was last year, before Ben got hurt and started playing like crap. Wasn't that the same year that they struggled when Ben was injured and were a completely different team with him?
hey, welcome to 2006. 2005 was last year. Why don't we look at the most relevant statistics, this years.

When one is talking about whether the Steelers would have won the Superbowl last year without Ben, last years stats are relevant. Sorry. :lol:


last years stats do matter. you cant just base everything on the few games he has played this year.

You can in a way because this season the Steelers "opened up" the offense more for him and are just now allowing him to do more things that most NFL QBs do. For starters throwing more than 18 times a game. He has consistently shown in his career that when he has to throw the ball the amount of times most QBs have to, he is not very succesful.

bearsfan_51
10-11-2006, 09:40 PM
Hey, what year did the Steelers win the Superbowl? Oh wait, that was last year, before Ben got hurt and started playing like crap. Wasn't that the same year that they struggled when Ben was injured and were a completely different team with him?
hey, welcome to 2006. 2005 was last year. Why don't we look at the most relevant statistics, this years.

When one is talking about whether the Steelers would have won the Superbowl last year without Ben, last years stats are relevant. Sorry. :lol:


last years stats do matter. you cant just base everything on the few games he has played this year.
Leave it to Windy to bring some reason to the debate.

ricky bobby
10-11-2006, 09:41 PM
Hey, what year did the Steelers win the Superbowl? Oh wait, that was last year, before Ben got hurt and started playing like crap. Wasn't that the same year that they struggled when Ben was injured and were a completely different team with him?
hey, welcome to 2006. 2005 was last year. Why don't we look at the most relevant statistics, this years.

When one is talking about whether the Steelers would have won the Superbowl last year without Ben, last years stats are relevant. Sorry. :lol:
I didn't bring the super bowl up. Whoever it is that voted for Ben came on here and claimed that because Ben won a superbowl, he is better than eli and rivers. I argued that his Superbowl win was irrelevant in case you didn't notice. :P

Windy
10-11-2006, 09:41 PM
Hey, what year did the Steelers win the Superbowl? Oh wait, that was last year, before Ben got hurt and started playing like crap. Wasn't that the same year that they struggled when Ben was injured and were a completely different team with him?
hey, welcome to 2006. 2005 was last year. Why don't we look at the most relevant statistics, this years.

When one is talking about whether the Steelers would have won the Superbowl last year without Ben, last years stats are relevant. Sorry. :lol:


last years stats do matter. you cant just base everything on the few games he has played this year.

You can in a way because this season the Steelers "opened up" the offense more for him and are just now allowing him to do more things that most NFL QBs do. For starters throwing more than 18 times a game. He has consistently shown in his career that when he has to throw the ball the amount of times most QBs have to, he is not very succesful.


lets just call it even and meet up at ihop for a nice pancake dinner

P-L
10-11-2006, 09:49 PM
Can I come too Windy?

Windy
10-11-2006, 09:57 PM
Can I come too Windy?


Ask Milton Bradley

Jughead10
10-11-2006, 09:58 PM
I don't want pancakes. I want a blintz.









Or a crepe....

Smooth Criminal
10-12-2006, 05:55 AM
In the end it is winning that matters and not stats. We'll see what QB leads his team to the most success.

As of now, I'll take the guy witha 5-1 playoff record and a ring over a guy that hasn't ever won , or scored a point in, a playoff game.

The steelers would have won that super bowl without ben. Don't bother arguing against that one.

Lets see.

In 2003 the Steelers went 6-10 and the only major offseason acquisition they got was Ben.

In 2004 they went 15-1 and wen to the AFC Championship.
In 2005 Ben dominated in the playoffs to take this team to the superbowl.

I don't even feel like making you look like an idiot for a comment like that. Anyone with any knowledge off football would tell you the Steelers would have been a .500 team or worse had Maddox or Batch started for us last season.

Jughead10
10-12-2006, 07:22 AM
In the end it is winning that matters and not stats. We'll see what QB leads his team to the most success.

As of now, I'll take the guy witha 5-1 playoff record and a ring over a guy that hasn't ever won , or scored a point in, a playoff game.

The steelers would have won that super bowl without ben. Don't bother arguing against that one.

Lets see.

In 2003 the Steelers went 6-10 and the only major offseason acquisition they got was Ben.

In 2004 they went 15-1 and wen to the AFC Championship.
In 2005 Ben dominated in the playoffs to take this team to the superbowl.

I don't even feel like making you look like an idiot for a comment like that. Anyone with any knowledge off football would tell you the Steelers would have been a .500 team or worse had Maddox or Batch started for us last season.

Like I said before they changed D coordinators the year they got Ben. That move was much bigger than bringing in Roethlisberger.

ricky bobby
10-12-2006, 07:34 AM
Alright lets wrap this up.

I would rather have Eli because
1. He has proven his team can rely on him to win a game once in a while and that he can air it out with the best of them (McNabb)
2. This is not his first season starting, we have something to look back at, and he improved his one weakness from last year- Completion %.

Why i wouldn't want Rivers
1. He has a ton of talent around him similar to Big Ben in his first season, so he hasn't been in any pressure situations, where he must air it out to win a game
2. He's only played 5 games. The verdict is still out
3. He still has that unorthodox side armed, quarter armed delivery.

Why i wouldn't want Big Ben
1. Sure he won a superbowl, but instead of improving like Eli in his carear, he has gotten progressively worse.
2. Manager of the game. Any QB in the league could do better than him running that offense.
3. His off-field issues seem to have affected him greatly.

DeathbyStat
10-12-2006, 11:23 AM
Ben is playing horrible this year, but so is the rest of the team on offense. The wide recieving core is the worst in the league they aren't getting open, and when they get open they drop passes. The o-line is blocking poorly. Everything is just going wrong. Also Eli and Philip have better supporting casts then Ben.

That being said there is no excuse for Ben's play this year. He is throwing the same ints over and over again. But I don't think that can argue that he played great against Denver and Indy in the playoffs. However he has regressed to the point that he is playing like rookie. I'm still not ready to give up on him, its only his third year. If I had to start a franchise from scratch I might consider taking Ben over Eli and Philip just because of his ability to create something out of nothing. Although if I had to sign one of the guys as as a free agent I would probly grab Philip in a heart beat if I a had a good team to but around him. Rivers really impressed me against the steelers, but we did stop sending our rush in the second half. Eventhough I respect what Ben has done for the steelers franchise the NFL litterally changes dailey if your not getting better your regressing. In many ways your only as good as your last game I know thats sort sided but in Ben's case he hasn't played good football in 4 straight games. At this point this is how I see it.......but it could changed by mid season or next year.
1.River
2.Manning
3.BEN

10-12-2006, 11:33 AM
Giants fans are really homers. Holy crap, did you guys actually watch the playoffs last year? Your great Eli choked big time, while Ben had some very nice stats. Sure he had a bad superbowl, but if you watched it, he made plays when they counted. He has had a rough off season and has stared slow so far, but I guarantee, he will be back. Also I would say the giants have had alot better running game than the Steelers have had the last few years. Most of your arguments amount to nothing. Both are going to have nice careers, but right now, one qb has made a positive mark in the playoffw, and the other hasn't. Winning is what matters. So far, one has alot better winning % than the other.

bigbluedefense
10-12-2006, 11:41 AM
Giants fans are really homers. Holy crap, did you guys actually watch the playoffs last year? Your great Eli choked big time, while Ben had some very nice stats. Sure he had a bad superbowl, but if you watched it, he made plays when they counted. He has had a rough off season and has stared slow so far, but I guarantee, he will be back. Also I would say the giants have had alot better running game than the Steelers have had the last few years. Most of your arguments amount to nothing. Both are going to have nice careers, but right now, one qb has made a positive mark in the playoffw, and the other hasn't. Winning is what matters. So far, one has alot better winning % than the other.

Seriously...we're the homers? That was ridiculous. The Steelers had one of the best run games of the entire league the past 2 years. After I read that, that completely negates any argument you tried to put forth.

And yeah, us Giants fans are talking about Eli now...but are we any worse than everyone here jumping on the Rivers bandwagon after 4 games, and after 1 game of over 30 throws? Look at the poll, its ridiculous. I can't believe how many people hopped on the bandwagon. The same thing happened last year with Ben, now the same people are ripping him. Now everyone is on the Rivers bandwagon and watch, sooner or later the same people are gonna rip him.

I understand alot of people hate Eli for what he did in the draft, but I think also that everyone here is just trying to find a new excuse to discredit him. Now that his "accuracy" issues can't be used, now the Rivers bandwagon is a new way for people to stick it to him. Let the haters hate, the games will prove whos the best.

And seriously, the Panthers game...you cannot compare our team's talent that year at that time to the Steelers. Day and night difference.

Number 10
10-12-2006, 11:43 AM
Ben is playing horrible this year, but so is the rest of the team on offense. The wide recieving core is the worst in the league they aren't getting open, and when they get open they drop passes. The o-line is blocking poorly. Everything is just going wrong. Also Eli and Philip have better supporting casts then Ben.

That being said there is no excuse for Ben's play this year. He is throwing the same ints over and over again. But I don't think that can argue that he played great against Denver and Indy in the playoffs. However he has regressed to the point that he is playing like rookie. I'm still not ready to give up on him, its only his third year. If I had to start a franchise from scratch I might consider taking Ben over Eli and Philip just because of his ability to create something out of nothing. Although if I had to sign one of the guys as as a free agent I would probly grab Philip in a heart beat if I a had a good team to but around him. Rivers really impressed me against the steelers, but we did stop sending our rush in the second half. Eventhough I respect what Ben has done for the steelers franchise the NFL litterally changes dailey if your not getting better your regressing. In many ways your only as good as your last game I know thats sort sided but in Ben's case he hasn't played good football in 4 straight games. At this point this is how I see it.......but it could changed by mid season or next year.
1.River
2.Manning
3.BEN

Get this through your head.

THE STEELERS DO NOT HAVE THE WORST WR CORE IN THE NFL!!!!

I wouldn't even think about giving up on Ben yet, he is still a good QB with a very good future. He just got a tad overrated by banwagoners and his place as a young QB in the NFL are becoming realized. The question now is...can he adjust to the adjustments made against him in the way Eli has done. We'll have to sit back, wait, and see.

DeathbyStat
10-12-2006, 11:49 AM
"Seriously...we're the homers? That was ridiculous. The Steelers had one of the best run games of the entire league the past 2 years. After I read that, that completely negates any argument you tried to put forth."


We had a great dominating line in 2004. Not so much in 05. And line has picked up thier iconsistant play this year. If you watched the playoffs we needed to pass to set up the run.

DeathbyStat
10-12-2006, 11:53 AM
[quote="Number 10"][quote="DeathbyStat"]Ben is playing horrible this year, but so is the rest of the team on offense. The wide recieving core is the worst in the league they aren't getting open, and when they get open they drop passes. The o-line is blocking poorly. Everything is just going wrong. Also Eli and Philip have better supporting casts then Ben.

Are wides outs are awfull. Hines is a quasi number 1. THe rest of the wide outs are number 3s right now at best. Cedrick Wilson blows he looks for pass interference calls before the ball even reaches him. Nate Washington is very iconsistent. Santonio is awfull and will surely be a bust.

Number 10
10-12-2006, 11:55 AM
You just called Santonnio Holmes a bust after 4 games. :roll:

Anything to make yourself look right, eh?

Jughead10
10-12-2006, 12:50 PM
Seriously, if Holmes is a bust, I can't even put in words what Moss is.

CM4
10-12-2006, 02:11 PM
of course Holmes is bust after 4 games but give reggie bush more time right!?!?!?!?!?

ricky bobby
10-12-2006, 02:19 PM
Hey i know this is a bit off-topic, but vote eli for fed-ex player of the week. Last time he got nominated, he won. Let's make it two out of 4 weeks for eli.

http://www.nfl.com/partners/fedex

I'm sorry guys, Rivers and Burger boy aren't choices. :cry:

Smooth Criminal
10-12-2006, 03:34 PM
Any QB in the league could do better than him running that offense.

So essentially you just called Ben the worst QB in the league.


:lol:

10-12-2006, 03:50 PM
Why waste your time argueing with the giants fans anymore? They have proved over and over, that they are the biggest homers on this site. Eli is not that bad, but he sure hasn't done anything impressive yet. If you rip on Eli, then your a bad person. If you say Ben has done more, then they say it is a team effort. What it boils down to for giants fans is this. Eli does evrything for the Giants, and there is no team involved, Ben can't do anything, and it is all the rest of the team. Go figure, win a superbowl and have 3 bad games and your no good. Typical giants fans, cry about how everybody is against poor little Eli.

Shiver
10-12-2006, 03:54 PM
Why waste your time argueing with the giants fans anymore? They have proved over and over, that they are the biggest homers on this site. Eli is not that bad, but he sure hasn't done anything impressive yet. If you rip on Eli, then your a bad person. If you say Ben has done more, then they say it is a team effort. What it boils down to for giants fans is this. Eli does evrything for the Giants, and there is no team involved, Ben can't do anything, and it is all the rest of the team. Go figure, win a superbowl and have 3 bad games and your no good. Typical giants fans, cry about how everybody is against poor little Eli.


Way to go, since you cannot prove that Ben had anything to do with the Steelers success, you have to lash out.

Number 10
10-12-2006, 03:59 PM
Why waste your time argueing with the giants fans anymore? They have proved over and over, that they are the biggest homers on this site. Eli is not that bad, but he sure hasn't done anything impressive yet. If you rip on Eli, then your a bad person. If you say Ben has done more, then they say it is a team effort. What it boils down to for giants fans is this. Eli does evrything for the Giants, and there is no team involved, Ben can't do anything, and it is all the rest of the team. Go figure, win a superbowl and have 3 bad games and your no good. Typical giants fans, cry about how everybody is against poor little Eli.

Um.

Proved over and over we are the biggest homers, how long have you been here? Oh wait, you're likely someone that got banned and came back under a new name. (SeanTaylor21 possibly)

Eli has not done anything impressive yet? hahahaha. You either don't watch football or you are a hater. Probably both. Tell Eagles fans and Broncos fans that Eli has not done anything yet. Ask Joe Gibbs if he thinks Eli is impressive. What a joke.

10-12-2006, 03:59 PM
Take a look at my earlier posts. I talked about how Ben led them last year. Just look at what he has done in his career. Just talking about how giant fans are really starting to be homers like the falcon and vick fans. I personally voted for Rivers. I thought he was the best pick coming out of college and still believe he will be the best of the 3. I also thought Ben was the third best pick, but you can't argue with his success so far. Until these other guys win a superbowl or can even show that they can lead thier teams to a playoff victory, there really isn't any argument.

Shiver
10-12-2006, 04:00 PM
Take a look at my earlier posts. I talked about how Ben led them last year. Just look at what he has done in his career. Just talking about how giant fans are really starting to be homers like the falcon and vick fans. I personally voted for Rivers. I thought he was the best pick coming out of college and still believe he will be the best of the 3. I also thought Ben was the third best pick, but you can't argue with his success so far. Until these other guys win a superbowl or can even show that they can lead thier teams to a playoff victory, there really isn't any argument.


:roll:


Ben sure did "lead" the team, eh? Puh-Lease.

Basileus777
10-12-2006, 04:00 PM
Why waste your time argueing with the giants fans anymore? They have proved over and over, that they are the biggest homers on this site. Eli is not that bad, but he sure hasn't done anything impressive yet. If you rip on Eli, then your a bad person. If you say Ben has done more, then they say it is a team effort. What it boils down to for giants fans is this. Eli does evrything for the Giants, and there is no team involved, Ben can't do anything, and it is all the rest of the team. Go figure, win a superbowl and have 3 bad games and your no good. Typical giants fans, cry about how everybody is against poor little Eli.


Way to go, since you cannot prove that Ben had anything to do with the Steelers success, you have to lash out.

Many people have explained this already throughout the thread, most of it ignored by the anti-Ben crowd.

Shiver
10-12-2006, 04:02 PM
He had the worst performance of any "Super Bowl winning" QB ever. Yet the first point the apologists make is "he's led his team to a championship, unlike Rivers or Manning, blah, blah, blah." This year was the first time the diapers have come off of him, and he's been put in a situation in which he has to make plays for his team to win, and he's been out-performed by Charlie Batch.

10-12-2006, 04:04 PM
Take a look at my earlier posts. I talked about how Ben led them last year. Just look at what he has done in his career. Just talking about how giant fans are really starting to be homers like the falcon and vick fans. I personally voted for Rivers. I thought he was the best pick coming out of college and still believe he will be the best of the 3. I also thought Ben was the third best pick, but you can't argue with his success so far. Until these other guys win a superbowl or can even show that they can lead thier teams to a playoff victory, there really isn't any argument.


:roll:


Ben sure did "lead" the team, eh? Puh-Lease. I guess you didn't watch the playoffs last year did you? Probably to busy watching Michael Vick lead his team to an 8-8 record and no playoff appearence.

Basileus777
10-12-2006, 04:05 PM
He had the worst performance of any "Super Bowl winning" QB ever. Yet the first point the apologists make is "he's led his team to a championship, unlike Rivers or Manning, blah, blah, blah."

The "apologists" usually cite Ben's great performances against Denver and Indie in the playoffs, without a running game. Those who claim Ben is garbage and has never done anything have yet to explain how he could have played so well in a hostile environment in the playoffs.

Shiver
10-12-2006, 04:06 PM
I guess you didn't watch the playoffs last year did you? Probably to busy watching Michael Vick lead his team to an 8-8 record and no playoff appearence.

So your one of those "W-L directly relates to QB performace," what a waste of time to debate with you. Last time I checked, football is a 53-man sport. Until you can prove otherwise, you aren't worth the time.

10-12-2006, 04:07 PM
Why waste your time argueing with the giants fans anymore? They have proved over and over, that they are the biggest homers on this site. Eli is not that bad, but he sure hasn't done anything impressive yet. If you rip on Eli, then your a bad person. If you say Ben has done more, then they say it is a team effort. What it boils down to for giants fans is this. Eli does evrything for the Giants, and there is no team involved, Ben can't do anything, and it is all the rest of the team. Go figure, win a superbowl and have 3 bad games and your no good. Typical giants fans, cry about how everybody is against poor little Eli.

Um.

Proved over and over we are the biggest homers, how long have you been here? Oh wait, you're likely someone that got banned and came back under a new name. (SeanTaylor21 possibly)

Eli has not done anything impressive yet? hahahaha. You either don't watch football or you are a hater. Probably both. Tell Eagles fans and Broncos fans that Eli has not done anything yet. Ask Joe Gibbs if he thinks Eli is impressive. What a joke. I guess if you consider not getting it done in post season a good job, enjoy your qb. Just cause a guy has 3 bad games doesn't make me turn my back or even my opinion on how good a qb is.

10-12-2006, 04:08 PM
So your one of those "W-L directly relates to QB performace," what a waste of time to debate with you. Isn't that how falcon fans base that so called qb in atlanta on.

Shiver
10-12-2006, 04:10 PM
So your one of those "W-L directly relates to QB performace," what a waste of time to debate with you. Isn't that how falcon fans base that so called qb in atlanta on.


Some do, but it's an ignorant reasoning point. Michael Vick had four games of 90+ "passer rating," last year, of which resulted in losses. So by your logic, he should be blamed for piss-poor performances by his defense.

Number 10
10-12-2006, 04:11 PM
Why waste your time argueing with the giants fans anymore? They have proved over and over, that they are the biggest homers on this site. Eli is not that bad, but he sure hasn't done anything impressive yet. If you rip on Eli, then your a bad person. If you say Ben has done more, then they say it is a team effort. What it boils down to for giants fans is this. Eli does evrything for the Giants, and there is no team involved, Ben can't do anything, and it is all the rest of the team. Go figure, win a superbowl and have 3 bad games and your no good. Typical giants fans, cry about how everybody is against poor little Eli.

Um.

Proved over and over we are the biggest homers, how long have you been here? Oh wait, you're likely someone that got banned and came back under a new name. (SeanTaylor21 possibly)

Eli has not done anything impressive yet? hahahaha. You either don't watch football or you are a hater. Probably both. Tell Eagles fans and Broncos fans that Eli has not done anything yet. Ask Joe Gibbs if he thinks Eli is impressive. What a joke. I guess if you consider not getting it done in post season a good job, enjoy your qb. Just cause a guy has 3 bad games doesn't make me turn my back or even my opinion on how good a qb is.

Do you realize that you totally just contradicted yourself?!?!

You look down on Eli for having ONE horrid game against a top notch defense against the Panthers. Yet you tell me that a QB having 3 bad games can't alter your view?

You're a joke.

Shiver
10-12-2006, 04:16 PM
He isn't worth the bother. He has blinders on, worse of all he chooses to attack anyone who disagrees with his viewpoints.

10-12-2006, 04:20 PM
Why waste your time argueing with the giants fans anymore? They have proved over and over, that they are the biggest homers on this site. Eli is not that bad, but he sure hasn't done anything impressive yet. If you rip on Eli, then your a bad person. If you say Ben has done more, then they say it is a team effort. What it boils down to for giants fans is this. Eli does evrything for the Giants, and there is no team involved, Ben can't do anything, and it is all the rest of the team. Go figure, win a superbowl and have 3 bad games and your no good. Typical giants fans, cry about how everybody is against poor little Eli.

Um.

Proved over and over we are the biggest homers, how long have you been here? Oh wait, you're likely someone that got banned and came back under a new name. (SeanTaylor21 possibly)

Eli has not done anything impressive yet? hahahaha. You either don't watch football or you are a hater. Probably both. Tell Eagles fans and Broncos fans that Eli has not done anything yet. Ask Joe Gibbs if he thinks Eli is impressive. What a joke. I guess if you consider not getting it done in post season a good job, enjoy your qb. Just cause a guy has 3 bad games doesn't make me turn my back or even my opinion on how good a qb is.

Do you realize that you totally just contradicted yourself?!?!

You look down on Eli for having ONE horrid game against a top notch defense against the Panthers. Yet you tell me that a QB having 3 bad games can't alter your view?

You're a joke. I never said Eli was horrible. Do you know how to read? I just said he isn't that bad, but you guys are the ones saying Ben sucks. Your guy has done nothing. He also cannot be put in the same category as Ben. Ben is a superbowl winning qb, Eli is not. You have no argument. You giants fans are just happy he is doing bad, so the little cry baby Eli doesn't look so bad. Like I said before, I voted for Rivers, Not Ben. It's just funny how giants fans can't take anything said about eli. I also would take Rex Grossman over eli any day also.

Shiver
10-12-2006, 04:24 PM
Ben Roethlisberger's Super Bowl "winning" performance:

21 Attempts
9 Completions
123 Yards
0 Touchdowns
2 Interceptions

Worst "winning" Super Bowl performance of all time. Snortie, you are not going to be able to get away with calling a victory on a debate based of erroneous claims that Roethlisberger played well, at least enough to "lead" his team in aformentioned game.

Now I cannot imagine Ben being his bad the rest of his career, but his play had lend credence to the arguments that have been put against him. To give him credit, instead of the Steelers credit for last year's success is absurd.

10-12-2006, 04:28 PM
Ben Roethlisberger's Super Bowl "winning" performance:

21 Attempts
9 Completions
123 Yards
0 Touchdowns
2 Interceptions

Worst "winning" Super Bowl performance of all time. Snortie, you are not going to be able to get away with calling a victory on a debate based of erroneous claims that Roethlisberger played well in aformentioned game. All I said is he is a superbowl winning qb. I didn't say he won the superbowl. He led his team all through the playoffs last year, and his stats can't be denied. John Elway was horrible in superbowls, yet I wouldn't say he sucked. He also had some awful years in Denver, still he is in the hall of fame, and I would say most everyone on this site would say he is in the to 15 qb's of all time.

Shiver
10-12-2006, 04:31 PM
So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.

10-12-2006, 04:39 PM
So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY. I never said that. I don't believe Eli could have had bens success through the playoffs like last year, Like I said 1 bad game doesn't mean he didn't lead his team to the superbow. It's kinda like Plummer last year, if he doesn't have that bad game against the Steelers, the broncos could have been in the superbowl. Last time I checked, Eli's runningback, tiki Barber is better then anything the syeelers have had the last few years.

Number 10
10-12-2006, 04:41 PM
Snortie.


Please show me where I called Ben bad.

Zim3031
10-12-2006, 04:53 PM
So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.

If you watched how Eli played against Carolina last year, I don't see how you can logically assume that he could've won it last year.

Despite his horrible super bowl performance, Ben actually played quite well in the post season.

bigbluedefense
10-12-2006, 04:58 PM
So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.

If you watched how Eli played against Carolina last year, I don't see how you can logically assume that he could've won it last year.

Despite his horrible super bowl performance, Ben actually played quite well in the post season.

So youre comparing his first playoff start to Ben's 3rd and 4th and 5th? How is that fair? Remember how Ben did in his first playoff start? Just as bad as Manning. AND, he went up against a worse defensive than Manning. With a better oline and running attack. So thats a frequently used argument, however it is skewing the facts.

I can easily bring up Manning's numbers when he throws over 30 times compared to Ben if I wanted to.

The truth in this argument is, Ben isn't horrible, he's not great. He's somewhere in the middle. All this talk of Ben being a top 10 qb in the league prior to this season was inaccurate. Before he can get in that category, he needs to show the rest of the world that he can look off a safety...something he has yet to do in his career. I wonder how a qb who doesn't look off safeties wins the SB? Maybe the talent around him had something to do with it? Hmm...

Number 10
10-12-2006, 05:11 PM
Snortie....I did the searching for you. Please read my bolded statement before you make falase assumptions.


If anything, Ben recieved too much love on this site. I don't see how anyone can put in the claim that he gets bashed too easily. I'll try to sum up my thoughts briefly...


I admire Ben more than you believe, and as of right now I have him ranked as my #10 QB in the league right behind Eli. Prior to the 2004 draft, I was calling for Ben so that we could get our franchise guy and keep all of our picks, which we obviously could have used. But after watching almost every single one of both their games in the NFL, I am feeling much more secure with Eli at the helm than I would be with Ben calling the shots.

Physically, there is not too much of a difference. They both have similar arm strength in terms of short, intermediate routes and deep balls. If you want to give the edge to Ben there, be my guest, I won't fight it too hard because the difference, if any, is minimal. Ben is also faster and more effective outside of the pocket, a dimension I sometimes wish Eli had. So if you want to compare the two from a physical standpoint, I have to give a slight edge to Ben.

But where Eli really creates seperation in this debate is in the intangibles area. He has proved time after time that he can take the game into his own hands when it matters most and lead his team to victory. He never lets pressure get to his head, even though he is playing in arguably the most difficult market in the football world. His comeback victories and late game heroics are not luck because he continues to do the same thing time and time again. He also has a little "Peyton" in him in the sense that he studies to no end during the season and during the offseason. I have a buddy that works at the Stadium all year for practices and workouts and he said Eli was there more often than any of the coaches, including Coughlin. He worked his butt off in the film room and the weight room and I can really tell a huge difference in his play to this point. He clearly was not in the best physical shape last year and was not ready to throw the ball 500+ times, hence why he fell apart late in the year. Eli has not even come close to reaching his full potential because his work ethic parallels Peyton's, and sit there and think about how much Peyton has progressed since his second season as a starter.

Yes, I realize Ben has a ring, yada yada yada. I already stated that it does not take a special QB to win a Super Bowl to say the least. To say that the Steelers had a simple offense that relied on the running game and strong defensive play would be an understatement. It seems now that the running game is being contained, Ben is not even sniffing the success he had the past couple years. I know he will improve over the course of the season, but I don't see him maintaining the level of play his numbers indicated his first two years. His offensive line has been poor, but the Giants line was terrible against the Eagles and what did Eli do? He is able to make adjustments, something Ben still needs to prove. The running game is not there for the Steelers. Well, the running game has been up and down for the Giants, yet Eli has been playing consistently well. The WRs and TE play for the Steelers has been poor. Well, Plaxico Burress is dropping balls every week, Sinorice Moss can't get on the field, Tim Carter has had a few big drops and Shockey is very, VERY banged up. All I heard from the Steelers fans throughout the offseason was how underrated Hines Ward is and how Heath Miller is a legit playmaker. Come on now, you can't have it both ways.

That was a little bit longer than I was intending, but pick it apart if you wish.

Basileus777
10-12-2006, 05:14 PM
So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.

Huh? Are you trying to argue that the Giants don't have a very good run game? No one would take Bettis and Parker over Barber. You are technically correct, the Giants had the #6 rushing offense last year, while the Steelers were the #5 running team.But the Giants rushing attack was incredibly more efficient than the Steelers last year, and only had 15 less rushing yards than the Steelers. Arguing that Eli hasn't had a run game is just wrong.

Zim3031
10-12-2006, 05:15 PM
So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.

If you watched how Eli played against Carolina last year, I don't see how you can logically assume that he could've won it last year.

Despite his horrible super bowl performance, Ben actually played quite well in the post season.

So youre comparing his first playoff start to Ben's 3rd and 4th and 5th? How is that fair? Remember how Ben did in his first playoff start? Just as bad as Manning. AND, he went up against a worse defensive than Manning. With a better oline and running attack. So thats a frequently used argument, however it is skewing the facts.

I can easily bring up Manning's numbers when he throws over 30 times compared to Ben if I wanted to.

The truth in this argument is, Ben isn't horrible, he's not great. He's somewhere in the middle. All this talk of Ben being a top 10 qb in the league prior to this season was inaccurate. Before he can get in that category, he needs to show the rest of the world that he can look off a safety...something he has yet to do in his career. I wonder how a qb who doesn't look off safeties wins the SB? Maybe the talent around him had something to do with it? Hmm...


I'm comparing Eli last year to Ben last year. You don't really believe that Eli would've won a super bowl on the Steelers last year do you?


I don't see how people can't give credit for Roethlisberger for those superbowls in some capacity. The steelers had always had a productive running game and a solid defense for years but played musical QB. In steps Roethlisberger and they start winning like crazy? I don't see how that's product of the system.

Basileus777
10-12-2006, 05:17 PM
So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.

If you watched how Eli played against Carolina last year, I don't see how you can logically assume that he could've won it last year.

Despite his horrible super bowl performance, Ben actually played quite well in the post season.

So youre comparing his first playoff start to Ben's 3rd and 4th and 5th? How is that fair? Remember how Ben did in his first playoff start? Just as bad as Manning. AND, he went up against a worse defensive than Manning. With a better oline and running attack. So thats a frequently used argument, however it is skewing the facts.

I can easily bring up Manning's numbers when he throws over 30 times compared to Ben if I wanted to.

The truth in this argument is, Ben isn't horrible, he's not great. He's somewhere in the middle. All this talk of Ben being a top 10 qb in the league prior to this season was inaccurate. Before he can get in that category, he needs to show the rest of the world that he can look off a safety...something he has yet to do in his career. I wonder how a qb who doesn't look off safeties wins the SB? Maybe the talent around him had something to do with it? Hmm...


I'm comparing Eli last year to Ben last year. You don't really believe that Eli would've won a super bowl on the Steelers last year do you?


I don't see how people can't give credit for Roethlisberger for those superbowls in some capacity. The steelers had always had a productive running game and a solid defense for years but played musical QB. In steps Roethlisberger and they start winning like crazy? I don't see how that's product of the system.

The Steelers running game actually struggled a fair bit last year, particularly in the playoffs. I don't even believe Ben is a top qb, but its just ridiculous how little credit he is getting here. The Steelers would not have won the Superbowl without Ben, because without him they don't win at Indie or Denver or even make the playoffs. Could Eli (who I think is the best qb out of these 3) have done it? I don't know and it depends on which Eli showed up. They wouldn't have won any playoffs games with the way Eli was playing at the end of last year (the entire last 3rd of the season, not just the Panthers game). Its too early to tell with Rivers.

bigbluedefense
10-12-2006, 05:23 PM
2 points I want to make.

1st, the run game of the Giants. It was very inconsistent. While total yards might be similar, anyone who watched the Giants consistently would see that we were a poor team when it comes to running for average. Tiki would get 0,0,2,1, 55. Thats how our run game was. ALSO, we set up the run with the pass, an entirely different system to the Steelers. We came out with 3 WRs, and ran on nickel defenses. It was up to Eli to keep the defense honest so our run game can run through smaller fronts.

The Steelers ran for average, and ran first and passed 2nd. Totally different system with totally different responsibilities. This is an example of when numbers can be very deceiving.

2. You want to compare Eli in his 2nd year to Ben. Well...if you look at their regular seasons, Eli in fact had a better on statistically. But forget statistics. Ben in his 2nd year already had playoff experience. That goes a long way when making it to the playoffs a 2nd time. Whos to say that if Pitt drafted Eli that he wouldnt have been playing in the playoffs his rookie year as well? You cannot compare them that way, theres too many X factors.

Rex Grossman lost his first playoff game remember. Does that mean that Grossman would be unable to do what Ben did? Look at this year, that answers your question right there. Ben "managed" his team.

You want to talk about his success in the playoffs? Ok, lets talk about it. When did he have his success? In the first quarter mostly. Why? Because teams stacked the box with 8, so when he did PA pass, he had his first read open 80% of the time. Does that make him Elway? Didn't think so.

What happened in those playoff games in the 2nd half when teams respected the pass more? Ben fell off. Just goes to show you that when you put the game in his hands, he loses it moreso than wins it.

Shiver
10-12-2006, 05:27 PM
He's not as good as Steelers fans believe he is. But he's not as bad as he's played this year. How he finishes off this season will be very telling as to how his career will end up. All I know is I am sick of the "W-L" and "Super Bowl" reasoning point, as a reason why QB X is better than QB Y.

Dam8610
10-12-2006, 05:37 PM
Eli Manning is the best QB of the class IMO. That said, I'd take San Diego's side of the trade for the #1 pick every time. Rivers + Merriman (or for a 4-3 team, a different 1st round pick) + Kaeding>>>>>>Manning

Jughead10
10-12-2006, 05:37 PM
Just something to note. Rushing attack is just not a RB. I've seen Steelers fans point out that Tiki Barber is better than their RBs. This is true. But a lot of rushing (actually probably most of it) is dependant on the offensive line. Which Pittsburgh's was light years better than the Giants. Just something to note. Larry Johnson doesn't rush for all those yards last year behind the Giants line. Keep that in mind.

ricky bobby
10-12-2006, 05:39 PM
So your saying if Eli Manning was on the Steelers they wouldn't have won the Super Bowl? Because last time I checked, Eli hasn't had a top-5 rushing attack or defense in his time in NY.

If you watched how Eli played against Carolina last year, I don't see how you can logically assume that he could've won it last year.

Despite his horrible super bowl performance, Ben actually played quite well in the post season.
If you recall, the giants did poorly as an entire team, including the coaches. Our starting LBers were injured and we had 3 players starting that couldn't hold their own in NFL Europe. Tiki, a well respected leader on the giants, came out and said that they got outcoached. You can't put that loss on Eli alone. Nobody from the giants did good in that game.

ricky bobby
10-12-2006, 05:41 PM
I forgot to mention a qb from the 2004 draft that is playing far better than Big Ben this year. JP Losman.

Windy
10-12-2006, 05:45 PM
I forgot to mention a qb from the 2004 draft that is playing far better than Big Ben this year. JP Losman.


Good for him

Basileus777
10-12-2006, 05:46 PM
Just something to note. Rushing attack is just not a RB. I've seen Steelers fans point out that Tiki Barber is better than their RBs. This is true. But a lot of rushing (actually probably most of it) is dependant on the offensive line. Which Pittsburgh's was light years better than the Giants. Just something to note. Larry Johnson doesn't rush for all those yards last year behind the Giants line. Keep that in mind.

The Giants line isn't as good at run blocking as Pittsburghs, but it is still a pretty good run blocking line. Either way, no one can claim that Eli didn't have a good run game.

Jughead10
10-12-2006, 05:46 PM
I forgot to mention a qb from the 2004 draft that is playing far better than Big Ben this year. JP Losman.


Good for him

Harrrooooo!!!!

Jughead10
10-12-2006, 05:47 PM
Just something to note. Rushing attack is just not a RB. I've seen Steelers fans point out that Tiki Barber is better than their RBs. This is true. But a lot of rushing (actually probably most of it) is dependant on the offensive line. Which Pittsburgh's was light years better than the Giants. Just something to note. Larry Johnson doesn't rush for all those yards last year behind the Giants line. Keep that in mind.

The Giants line isn't as good at run blocking as Pittsburghs, but it is still a pretty good run blocking line.

The right side is. The combination of Snee and McKenzie.

Windy
10-12-2006, 05:49 PM
When do you guys think Tiki will retire? Its going to be hard to replace a back like that

Jughead10
10-12-2006, 05:51 PM
When do you guys think Tiki will retire? Its going to be hard to replace a back like that

I think '07 will be his last year. This year and one more.

Zim3031
10-12-2006, 05:56 PM
The Steelers ran for average, and ran first and passed 2nd. Totally different system with totally different responsibilities. This is an example of when numbers can be very deceiving.

Ben Roethlisberger last year had more attempts passing on first down than he did on 2nd and 3rd. He also has a passer rating of 119. The steelers tendencies last year was to put up a score fast and hard, then grind the ball out on the ground to preserve victory. This conception that the steelers just run the ball twice then threw once is just incorrect.

Rex Grossman lost his first playoff game remember. Does that mean that Grossman would be unable to do what Ben did? Look at this year, that answers your question right there. Ben "managed" his team.

If all he did was "manage" his team then how have the Steeler, who have been stuck with mediocrity at the QB position for years, only start winning like mad when Ben came into town. And don't say that it's because their defense and running game was better. That's just not true.

You want to talk about his success in the playoffs? Ok, lets talk about it. When did he have his success? In the first quarter mostly. Why? Because teams stacked the box with 8, so when he did PA pass, he had his first read open 80% of the time. Does that make him Elway? Didn't think so.

What happened in those playoff games in the 2nd half when teams respected the pass more? Ben fell off. Just goes to show you that when you put the game in his hands, he loses it moreso than wins it.

Loses it more so than he wins? He's lost one playoff game in his career. Last I checked he played alright in Denver when the Steelers couldn't run the ball at all. Including the second half.

ricky bobby
10-12-2006, 05:59 PM
When do you guys think Tiki will retire? Its going to be hard to replace a back like that

I think '07 will be his last year. This year and one more.
I think he'll retire after this year. He has a bright future as a sportscaster ahead of him. Very likeable and charasmatic guy.

cgf
10-12-2006, 05:59 PM
2 points I want to make.

1st, the run game of the Giants. It was very inconsistent. While total yards might be similar, anyone who watched the Giants consistently would see that we were a poor team when it comes to running for average. Tiki would get 0,0,2,1, 55. Thats how our run game was. ALSO, we set up the run with the pass, an entirely different system to the Steelers. We came out with 3 WRs, and ran on nickel defenses. It was up to Eli to keep the defense honest so our run game can run through smaller fronts.

The Steelers ran for average, and ran first and passed 2nd. Totally different system with totally different responsibilities. This is an example of when numbers can be very deceiving.

2. You want to compare Eli in his 2nd year to Ben. Well...if you look at their regular seasons, Eli in fact had a better on statistically. But forget statistics. Ben in his 2nd year already had playoff experience. That goes a long way when making it to the playoffs a 2nd time. Whos to say that if Pitt drafted Eli that he wouldnt have been playing in the playoffs his rookie year as well? You cannot compare them that way, theres too many X factors.

Rex Grossman lost his first playoff game remember. Does that mean that Grossman would be unable to do what Ben did? Look at this year, that answers your question right there. Ben "managed" his team.

You want to talk about his success in the playoffs? Ok, lets talk about it. When did he have his success? In the first quarter mostly. Why? Because teams stacked the box with 8, so when he did PA pass, he had his first read open 80% of the time. Does that make him Elway? Didn't think so.

What happened in those playoff games in the 2nd half when teams respected the pass more? Ben fell off. Just goes to show you that when you put the game in his hands, he loses it moreso than wins it.

How to put this sensitively, I . . . want to plow you.

Windy
10-12-2006, 06:01 PM
you GUYS WANTS FEATURE BACKS?


I'll trade you


Courtney Anderson
Darnell Bing
Nnamdi Asomugha

for

Rich Seubert
Reggie Torbor

cgf
10-12-2006, 06:05 PM
you GUYS WANTS FEATURE BACKS?


I'll trade you


Courtney Anderson
Darnell Bing
Nnamdi Asomugha

for

Rich Seubert
Reggie Torbor

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jughead10
10-12-2006, 06:14 PM
Note: Dick LeBeau coming back to Pitt the same year Ben got drafted has meant more for the team than Ben himself.

ricky bobby
10-12-2006, 06:20 PM
you GUYS WANTS FEATURE BACKS?


I'll trade you


Courtney Anderson
Darnell Bing
Nnamdi Asomugha

for

Rich Seubert
Reggie Torbor
I'll take that trade. Torbor was being shopped around already and hasn't sniffed the field. Seubert is decent, but he's still a backup and he's aging (29 i think). Bing was what? a third rounder? Asomugha is a corner, i'm not sure how good, but he might be an upgrade. Courtney Anderson, i'm not familiar with.

Windy
10-12-2006, 06:24 PM
you GUYS WANTS FEATURE BACKS?


I'll trade you


Courtney Anderson
Darnell Bing
Nnamdi Asomugha

for

Rich Seubert
Reggie Torbor

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


jk lol

i hope al isnt dumb enough to do that

cgf
10-12-2006, 06:25 PM
you GUYS WANTS FEATURE BACKS?


I'll trade you


Courtney Anderson
Darnell Bing
Nnamdi Asomugha

for

Rich Seubert
Reggie Torbor
I'll take that trade. Torbor was being shopped around already and hasn't sniffed the field. Seubert is decent, but he's still a backup and he's aging (29 i think). Bing was what? a third rounder? Asomugha is a corner, i'm not sure how good, but he might be an upgrade. Courtney Anderson, i'm not familiar with.

Anderson is a worthless TE. Asomugha could help us as a NB, he;s very physical. But Bing doesn't give us too much. Unlike that Rich Seubert is a very quality OG/C backup who could start at C for us. And i like Torbor for no reason.

Jughead10
10-12-2006, 06:26 PM
you GUYS WANTS FEATURE BACKS?


I'll trade you


Courtney Anderson
Darnell Bing
Nnamdi Asomugha

for

Rich Seubert
Reggie Torbor

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


jk lol

i hope al isnt dumb enough to do that

Probably isn't that dumb. Although if Torbor and Seubert were rediculously fast for their position but still didn't know how to play he might trade for them.

Jughead10
10-12-2006, 06:27 PM
you GUYS WANTS FEATURE BACKS?


I'll trade you


Courtney Anderson
Darnell Bing
Nnamdi Asomugha

for

Rich Seubert
Reggie Torbor
I'll take that trade. Torbor was being shopped around already and hasn't sniffed the field. Seubert is decent, but he's still a backup and he's aging (29 i think). Bing was what? a third rounder? Asomugha is a corner, i'm not sure how good, but he might be an upgrade. Courtney Anderson, i'm not familiar with.

Anderson is a worthless TE. Asomugha could help us as a NB, he;s very physical. But Bing doesn't give us too much. Unlike that Rich Seubert is a very quality OG/C backup who could start at C for us. And i like Torbor for no reason.

I'm still trying to figure out why Torbor has a spot on this team for no reason? Cause I can't think of a reason why he is here.

cgf
10-12-2006, 06:28 PM
Cause i like him. I asked TC to keep him on the roster and remind him what a beast pass rusher he was in college and so he's trying to remind him.

Windy
10-12-2006, 06:29 PM
I will offer you this:



Tommy Kelly
Barry Sims

for

Justin Tuck

cgf
10-12-2006, 06:33 PM
I will offer you this:



Tommy Kelly
Barry Sims

for

Justin Tuck

I'd like to see Kelly in a giants uniform, but not at that price.

bigbluedefense
10-12-2006, 06:37 PM
2 points I want to make.

1st, the run game of the Giants. It was very inconsistent. While total yards might be similar, anyone who watched the Giants consistently would see that we were a poor team when it comes to running for average. Tiki would get 0,0,2,1, 55. Thats how our run game was. ALSO, we set up the run with the pass, an entirely different system to the Steelers. We came out with 3 WRs, and ran on nickel defenses. It was up to Eli to keep the defense honest so our run game can run through smaller fronts.

The Steelers ran for average, and ran first and passed 2nd. Totally different system with totally different responsibilities. This is an example of when numbers can be very deceiving.

2. You want to compare Eli in his 2nd year to Ben. Well...if you look at their regular seasons, Eli in fact had a better on statistically. But forget statistics. Ben in his 2nd year already had playoff experience. That goes a long way when making it to the playoffs a 2nd time. Whos to say that if Pitt drafted Eli that he wouldnt have been playing in the playoffs his rookie year as well? You cannot compare them that way, theres too many X factors.

Rex Grossman lost his first playoff game remember. Does that mean that Grossman would be unable to do what Ben did? Look at this year, that answers your question right there. Ben "managed" his team.

You want to talk about his success in the playoffs? Ok, lets talk about it. When did he have his success? In the first quarter mostly. Why? Because teams stacked the box with 8, so when he did PA pass, he had his first read open 80% of the time. Does that make him Elway? Didn't think so.

What happened in those playoff games in the 2nd half when teams respected the pass more? Ben fell off. Just goes to show you that when you put the game in his hands, he loses it moreso than wins it.

How to put this sensitively, I . . . want to plow you.

I can only dream to be half the man you are cgf...you're like Jordan and Im Tony Kukoc.

cgf
10-12-2006, 06:43 PM
2 points I want to make.

1st, the run game of the Giants. It was very inconsistent. While total yards might be similar, anyone who watched the Giants consistently would see that we were a poor team when it comes to running for average. Tiki would get 0,0,2,1, 55. Thats how our run game was. ALSO, we set up the run with the pass, an entirely different system to the Steelers. We came out with 3 WRs, and ran on nickel defenses. It was up to Eli to keep the defense honest so our run game can run through smaller fronts.

The Steelers ran for average, and ran first and passed 2nd. Totally different system with totally different responsibilities. This is an example of when numbers can be very deceiving.

2. You want to compare Eli in his 2nd year to Ben. Well...if you look at their regular seasons, Eli in fact had a better on statistically. But forget statistics. Ben in his 2nd year already had playoff experience. That goes a long way when making it to the playoffs a 2nd time. Whos to say that if Pitt drafted Eli that he wouldnt have been playing in the playoffs his rookie year as well? You cannot compare them that way, theres too many X factors.

Rex Grossman lost his first playoff game remember. Does that mean that Grossman would be unable to do what Ben did? Look at this year, that answers your question right there. Ben "managed" his team.

You want to talk about his success in the playoffs? Ok, lets talk about it. When did he have his success? In the first quarter mostly. Why? Because teams stacked the box with 8, so when he did PA pass, he had his first read open 80% of the time. Does that make him Elway? Didn't think so.

What happened in those playoff games in the 2nd half when teams respected the pass more? Ben fell off. Just goes to show you that when you put the game in his hands, he loses it moreso than wins it.

How to put this sensitively, I . . . want to plow you.

I can only dream to be half the man you are cgf...you're like Jordan and Im Tony Kukoc.

psh, i'm so much better than jordan, he can't even hit a fastball.

bigbluedefense
10-12-2006, 07:01 PM
Ben Roethlisberger last year had more attempts passing on first down than he did on 2nd and 3rd. He also has a passer rating of 119. The steelers tendencies last year was to put up a score fast and hard, then grind the ball out on the ground to preserve victory. This conception that the steelers just run the ball twice then threw once is just incorrect.

Which only adds to inflating his numbers. On first down, he sees 8 man fronts 95% of the time, so if he throws on 1st, he has at least 3 targets going against 3 DBs, which means his hot read tends to be open on 1st down almost all the time. 1st down would be actually ideal for him because of the fronts he sees.

If all he did was "manage" his team then how have the Steeler, who have been stuck with mediocrity at the QB position for years, only start winning like mad when Ben came into town. And don't say that it's because their defense and running game was better. That's just not true.

Tommy Maddox isn't even a 2nd string qb. Stewart isn't even in the league anymore. Those are the guys who played before him and for him while he was hurt. If they had a competent backup that stat would be meaningless. Pittsburgh happened to have arguably the worst qb in the league for the 6 years prior to Ben, and Maddox as a backup to Ben is like having no qb at all. And show me a team that wins most of its games with its backup qb for any team in the league anyway. Again, misleading stat.

Loses it more so than he wins? He's lost one playoff game in his career. Last I checked he played alright in Denver when the Steelers couldn't run the ball at all. Including the second half.

You give him credit for "winning" games he didn't really win. Did he "win" against the Jets in the playoffs? He did everything in his power to lose that game, he's lucky his team bailed him out. He did not "win" against the Seahawks, he played horriblely. The steelers won those games despite him, not because of him. Even his great games against Indy and Denver, he only played well when he got the oppurtunity to throw against 8 man fronts. When he was against nickel defenses, he faltered.

Having that said, Im actually one of the few in this thread trying to support him. Im just giving you counterarguments because alot of what youre saying is misleading. I do agree that Ben is getting knocked on a little too much in this thread though.

cgf
10-12-2006, 07:04 PM
Seriously, the steelers made a playoff run with both Maddox and stewart at QB, two of the worst QBs to start ever, so its expected that they be better with a semi-compitent QB.

marks01234
10-15-2006, 06:59 PM
All three looked pretty solid today (Phil and Big Ben looking the best).

Overall, it is looking like a great draft for QBs

jkpigskin
10-15-2006, 07:02 PM
i wouldnt mind having any of those 3 guys, but im an eli guy... love his arm and ability to play

San Diego Chicken
10-15-2006, 07:13 PM
Rivers has thrown five less picks than Ben and Manning a piece, so I'd go with him. He isn't reckless with the football.

10-15-2006, 07:22 PM
Nice to see, Ben shutting all you haters up. Funny how you all want to be the first to make mad monkey love to Eli and want to just make up excuses for Bens success in his young career. Just goes to show, Ben can lead a team, wether you want to admit it or not. Now of course, 1 game doesn't mean he won't make mistakes this season, but to call for his benching, and say he is overrated is just plain stupid. He is just as valuable to his team, as any other qb in the league.

bearsfan_51
10-15-2006, 07:28 PM
Nice to see, Ben shutting all you haters up. Funny how you all want to be the first to make mad monkey love to Eli and want to just make up excuses for Bens success in his young career. Just goes to show, Ben can lead a team, wether you want to admit it or not. Now of course, 1 game doesn't mean he won't make mistakes this season, but to call for his benching, and say he is overrated is just plain stupid. He is just as valuable to his team, as any other qb in the league.
Peyton Manning? Tom Brady? Donovan McNabb? I actually voted for Big Ben, but to say that people are being stupid and then make a statement like that is pretty foolish.

10-15-2006, 07:34 PM
How do you figure? Ben is the leader on that offense. If he is out for the season, there is no way the Steelers win many games. Last year was proof, when he was out.

bearsfan_51
10-15-2006, 07:36 PM
How do you figure? Ben is the leader on that offense. If he is out for the season, there is no way the Steelers win many games. Last year was proof, when he was out.
If Peyton Manning is hurt the Colts go from a 13-3 team to a 2-14 team. If Big Ben is hurt the Steelers go from an 11-5 team to a 7-9 team.

10-15-2006, 07:42 PM
How do you figure? Ben is the leader on that offense. If he is out for the season, there is no way the Steelers win many games. Last year was proof, when he was out.
If Peyton Manning is hurt the Colts go from a 13-3 team to a 2-14 team. If Big Ben is hurt the Steelers go from an 11-5 team to a 7-9 team. Either way, the teams don't make the playoffs. The colts would still win 7 games. They have such an easy schedule and division.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-15-2006, 07:46 PM
How do you figure? Ben is the leader on that offense. If he is out for the season, there is no way the Steelers win many games. Last year was proof, when he was out.
If Peyton Manning is hurt the Colts go from a 13-3 team to a 2-14 team. If Big Ben is hurt the Steelers go from an 11-5 team to a 7-9 team. Either way, the teams don't make the playoffs. The colts would still win 7 games. They have such an easy schedule and division.


Are you familiar with the epic pit of suckiness that is Jim Sorgi?

L6
10-15-2006, 10:36 PM
As for this poll, im not sure whats more suprising, the fact that Eli isnt running away with it, or the fact that 15 people actually voted for Ben Roethlisburger.

Yes. I completely believe that Ben made this team what it was last year. He played great games in the playoffs. Against Denver and Indy he was great putting points on the board early. I don't think Rivers or Manning would have been able to do what Ben did last post season.
You're right. Ben was money in the super bowl, they couldnt of done it without him!!
You just called Santonnio Holmes a bust after 4 games. :roll:

Anything to make yourself look right, eh?Agreed, calling someone a bust after 4 games is almost as stupid as calling someone a reach the day after the draft.

Windy
10-15-2006, 10:37 PM
did eli play well today?

M.O.T.H.
10-15-2006, 10:38 PM
did eli play well today?

not really. 17-30 180 2 Tds and 2 ints, Rivers is better and I have said it since there college days. They will both be amazing down the road.

Windy
10-15-2006, 10:43 PM
i agree rivers is better than eli

cgf
10-15-2006, 10:46 PM
did eli play well today?

not really. 17-30 180 2 Tds and 2 ints, Rivers is better and I have said it since there college days. They will both be amazing down the road.

Rivers isn't better than eli as ELi has shown he is clutch, rivers hasn't

M.O.T.H.
10-15-2006, 10:48 PM
did eli play well today?

not really. 17-30 180 2 Tds and 2 ints, Rivers is better and I have said it since there college days. They will both be amazing down the road.

Rivers isn't better than eli as ELi has shown he is clutch, rivers hasn't

rivers has yet to get his chance. Overall I think he is the better of the two.

bearsfan_51
10-15-2006, 10:49 PM
did eli play well today?

not really. 17-30 180 2 Tds and 2 ints, Rivers is better and I have said it since there college days. They will both be amazing down the road.

Rivers isn't better than eli as ELi has shown he is clutch, rivers hasn't
Clutch is winning a playoff game. Not rallying to beat the Eagles in week 2.

cgf
10-15-2006, 10:56 PM
did eli play well today?

not really. 17-30 180 2 Tds and 2 ints, Rivers is better and I have said it since there college days. They will both be amazing down the road.

Rivers isn't better than eli as ELi has shown he is clutch, rivers hasn't
Clutch is winning a playoff game. Not rallying to beat the Eagles in week 2.

How bout ralying to beat an AFC championship game caliber Denver team in denver last november, in his first year starting. ELi is a QB who has proven to money late in games, period, there's no denying that fact.

bearsfan_51
10-15-2006, 11:00 PM
did eli play well today?

not really. 17-30 180 2 Tds and 2 ints, Rivers is better and I have said it since there college days. They will both be amazing down the road.

Rivers isn't better than eli as ELi has shown he is clutch, rivers hasn't
Clutch is winning a playoff game. Not rallying to beat the Eagles in week 2.

How bout ralying to beat an AFC championship game caliber Denver team in denver last november, in his first year starting. ELi is a QB who has proven to money late in games, period, there's no denying that fact.
Nope. Try again. The only QB of the bunch that has won a meaningful game is Big Ben, and there's no denying that fact.

M.O.T.H.
10-15-2006, 11:01 PM
Eli is good because of his supporting cast, IMO. I still believe he will be great one day but, if say Tiki or Plax went down, would Eli play well.... I doubt it.

Number 10
10-15-2006, 11:02 PM
Eli is good because of his supporting cast, IMO. I still believe he will be great one day but, if say Tiki or Plax went down, would Eli play well.... I doubt it.

Eli played his best half of the season without Plax.

Concord83
10-15-2006, 11:04 PM
did eli play well today?

not really. 17-30 180 2 Tds and 2 ints, Rivers is better and I have said it since there college days. They will both be amazing down the road.

Rivers isn't better than eli as ELi has shown he is clutch, rivers hasn't
Clutch is winning a playoff game. Not rallying to beat the Eagles in week 2.

http://webpages.charter.net/zrtm/stuff/owned.png

ben and philip had great games today. eli had a horrible first half but rallied in the 2nd. seems like the story of his career so far. oh, and yes, eli was TOTALLY clutch against the panthers in the playoffs last year. god he owned them.

M.O.T.H.
10-15-2006, 11:07 PM
Eli is good because of his supporting cast, IMO. I still believe he will be great one day but, if say Tiki or Plax went down, would Eli play well.... I doubt it.

Eli played his best half of the season without Plax.

Thats surprising. Anyway, if Tiki were to go down... he'd be screwed. Right now he is just driving the bus, he isnt really great by any means. He will be one day, as of right now, I say he is good not great and is not on the same level of a Philip Rivers.

marks01234
10-16-2006, 06:26 AM
For every clutch Eli performance, there is a Carolina Panthers disaster performance.

bigbluedefense
10-16-2006, 11:03 AM
Eli is good because of his supporting cast, IMO. I still believe he will be great one day but, if say Tiki or Plax went down, would Eli play well.... I doubt it.

Eli played his best half of the season without Plax.

Thats surprising. Anyway, if Tiki were to go down... he'd be screwed. Right now he is just driving the bus, he isnt really great by any means. He will be one day, as of right now, I say he is good not great and is not on the same level of a Philip Rivers.

1. Didn't you also say Drew Bledsoe is better than Eli Manning? How did that one turn out?

2. Eli Manning has played well this year inspite of Tiki Barber outside of this Falcons game. Before the redskins game, Tiki was averaging roughly 50 yards on the ground against Philly and Seattle and Eli was carrying our offense. Thats a weak argument, anyone who watches the Giants will tell you that Eli can do very well without Barber out of the backfield

3. Eli had his best half without Plaxico Burress in the lineup. In fact, he hits Toomer just as much as Plax

4. You also used to use "inaccuracy" and completion % as an excuse. Well, Eli is 3rd in the league in completion %.

5. Phillip Rivers supporting cast is just as good if not better than Elis. Plus he has a far superior oline. Don't use supporting cast as a reason to knock Eli then turn around and say Rivers doesn't have at the very least equal talent.

6. Driving the bus is what Ben did, throwing 19 times. Eli throws over 30 times a game, and has the 2nd most TDs in the league. The only guy ahead of him is McNabb and he didn't have the bye yet. Eli Manning is also 6th in the league in yards. Thats not "driving the bus", thats carrying the offense.

bigbluedefense
10-16-2006, 11:06 AM
Nice to see, Ben shutting all you haters up. Funny how you all want to be the first to make mad monkey love to Eli and want to just make up excuses for Bens success in his young career. Just goes to show, Ben can lead a team, wether you want to admit it or not. Now of course, 1 game doesn't mean he won't make mistakes this season, but to call for his benching, and say he is overrated is just plain stupid. He is just as valuable to his team, as any other qb in the league.

PLEASE. He went 16-19 and had a good game. You know why? BECAUSE HE THREW IT 19 TIMES...thats why. If anything, he's proven our point about him being a game manager. The diapers came back on yesterday, and he plays well. Do you honestly think Charlie Batch couldn't make the same throws yesterday? I saw the whole game, Ben's first read was open every time he threw the ball. And they weren't just open, they were ridiculously open, like there wasn't a defender within 15 yards of them. Give me a break. Ben will shut us up when he WINS a game with 30+ throws. Let's see him do that. Gradkowski couldve won you yesterday's game. 19 throws is a joke.

glennjamen3
10-16-2006, 11:19 AM
all three are going to be phenomenal qb's... but can we cut the ***** about ben being horrible. you can say he just manages games, i mean you cant really argue that i guess but if you watch him play i dont think you'd be saying the same thing. he makes throws when he needs to, he has won games on his arm, and hes poised as anybody. i think its a little silly to come in here after 4 bad games and say that he is terrible because hes had many more good ones to go along with it.

as far as eli or rivers? its kind of hard since philip has only played in a couple games but ill give him the slight edge since he had no problem with going to san diego in the first place.

bigbluedefense
10-16-2006, 11:23 AM
all three are going to be phenomenal qb's... but can we cut the *********** about ben being horrible. you can say he just manages games, i mean you cant really argue that i guess but if you watch him play i dont think you'd be saying the same thing. he makes throws when he needs to, he has won games on his arm, and hes poised as anybody. i think its a little silly to come in here after 4 bad games and say that he is terrible because hes had many more good ones to go along with it.

as far as eli or rivers? its kind of hard since philip has only played in a couple games but ill give him the slight edge since he had no problem with going to san diego in the first place.

I agree to an extent. I actually was one of the guys here who has supported Ben against the hate. But to say that he's proving the haters wrong is inaccurate. No one here said that he can't win games. He obviously can. We question his ability to put the offense on his shoulders and carry the offense like great qbs do. He hasn't done that yet, and has failed miserably when put in that situation. Until he does, I cannot put him on the same level as Eli or Rivers. But yes, saying Ben stinks is very inaccurate.

10-16-2006, 11:23 AM
Nice to see, Ben shutting all you haters up. Funny how you all want to be the first to make mad monkey love to Eli and want to just make up excuses for Bens success in his young career. Just goes to show, Ben can lead a team, wether you want to admit it or not. Now of course, 1 game doesn't mean he won't make mistakes this season, but to call for his benching, and say he is overrated is just plain stupid. He is just as valuable to his team, as any other qb in the league.

PLEASE. He went 16-19 and had a good game. You know why? BECAUSE HE THREW IT 19 TIMES...thats why. If anything, he's proven our point about him being a game manager. The diapers came back on yesterday, and he plays well. Do you honestly think Charlie Batch couldn't make the same throws yesterday? I saw the whole game, Ben's first read was open every time he threw the ball. And they weren't just open, they were ridiculously open, like there wasn't a defender within 15 yards of them. Give me a break. Ben will shut us up when he WINS a game with 30+ throws. Let's see him do that. Gradkowski couldve won you yesterday's game. 19 throws is a joke. He doesn't have to throw it more than that. He brings them to the lead and then the defense does the rest. Seriously are that big of a hater? Or are you just not very smart? Maybe if your team could actually hold a lead year after year, you might not have to throw the ball 30+ times a game. Also, if you lost Barber, there is no way Eli could lead that team. Say what you will, but you really ought to look into the game, not your heart.

Zim3031
10-16-2006, 11:35 AM
Eli is good because of his supporting cast, IMO. I still believe he will be great one day but, if say Tiki or Plax went down, would Eli play well.... I doubt it.

Eli played his best half of the season without Plax.

Thats surprising. Anyway, if Tiki were to go down... he'd be screwed. Right now he is just driving the bus, he isnt really great by any means. He will be one day, as of right now, I say he is good not great and is not on the same level of a Philip Rivers.

1. Didn't you also say Drew Bledsoe is better than Eli Manning? How did that one turn out?

2. Eli Manning has played well this year inspite of Tiki Barber outside of this Falcons game. Before the redskins game, Tiki was averaging roughly 50 yards on the ground against Philly and Seattle and Eli was carrying our offense. Thats a weak argument, anyone who watches the Giants will tell you that Eli can do very well without Barber out of the backfield

3. Eli had his best half without Plaxico Burress in the lineup. In fact, he hits Toomer just as much as Plax

4. You also used to use "inaccuracy" and completion % as an excuse. Well, Eli is 3rd in the league in completion %.

5. Phillip Rivers supporting cast is just as good if not better than Elis. Plus he has a far superior oline. Don't use supporting cast as a reason to knock Eli then turn around and say Rivers doesn't have at the very least equal talent.

6. Driving the bus is what Ben did, throwing 19 times. Eli throws over 30 times a game, and has the 2nd most TDs in the league. The only guy ahead of him is McNabb and he didn't have the bye yet. Eli Manning is also 6th in the league in yards. Thats not "driving the bus", thats carrying the offense.

The Giants haven't been conistent offensively until Tiki started rolling. The only win before Tiki broke out was a miracle comeback against the Eagles, And even then the Giants had only one good quarter. There's no way the Giants could've conistently won like that every game.

I don't see how you can say that Eli carried the offense in Seattle, seeing as how he threw the game away in the first quarter and only padded his stats in a meaningless fourth quarter.

And surely you saw the Atlanta game. Eli was downright awful. Surely you can't really believe that Eli would've saved the day in the end. Tiki and is 227 yard performance was to thank for their second half offensive explosion.

Let's not forget that Eli is also second in the league in interceptions. This offense lives and dies on Tiki. Eli's not quite ready to carry the offense.

marks01234
10-16-2006, 11:36 AM
5. Phillip Rivers supporting cast is just as good if not better than Elis. Plus he has a far superior oline. Don't use supporting cast as a reason to knock Eli then turn around and say Rivers doesn't have at the very least equal talent.


I don't know about this one. I'll agree that the supporting cast are a push, the Chargers OL is far from superior to anybody espically in the passing game.

bigbluedefense
10-16-2006, 11:37 AM
Nice to see, Ben shutting all you haters up. Funny how you all want to be the first to make mad monkey love to Eli and want to just make up excuses for Bens success in his young career. Just goes to show, Ben can lead a team, wether you want to admit it or not. Now of course, 1 game doesn't mean he won't make mistakes this season, but to call for his benching, and say he is overrated is just plain stupid. He is just as valuable to his team, as any other qb in the league.

PLEASE. He went 16-19 and had a good game. You know why? BECAUSE HE THREW IT 19 TIMES...thats why. If anything, he's proven our point about him being a game manager. The diapers came back on yesterday, and he plays well. Do you honestly think Charlie Batch couldn't make the same throws yesterday? I saw the whole game, Ben's first read was open every time he threw the ball. And they weren't just open, they were ridiculously open, like there wasn't a defender within 15 yards of them. Give me a break. Ben will shut us up when he WINS a game with 30+ throws. Let's see him do that. Gradkowski couldve won you yesterday's game. 19 throws is a joke. He doesn't have to throw it more than that. He brings them to the lead and then the defense does the rest. Seriously are that big of a hater? Or are you just not very smart? Maybe if your team could actually hold a lead year after year, you might not have to throw the ball 30+ times a game. Also, if you lost Barber, there is no way Eli could lead that team. Say what you will, but you really ought to look into the game, not your heart.

1.Read back at all the comments Ive said in this thread. You'll see that Ive defended Ben against all the "bench him now" talk.

2. No one with a brain is saying that he stinks. We're saying that he is a game manager. He is not on the same level as Eli or Rivers because he has proven throughout his career that when you need him to carry the offense, he fails. Now prior to the past 2 games, Ive said Ben is still better than Rivers at the moment. But Ive now changed my tune after seeing Rivers put up great games 2 time in a row throwing for 35+ times. Thats 2 more games than Ben his whole 3 year career. Now, can Ben win games? Of course. Can he lead the Steelers? Yes he can. But can he lead a team with his arm? No, he can't. Not yet at least. All this talk about him being a top 10 qb in the league prior to the season was inaccurate. When you say he shut us up, you are wrong. All he did was manage the game to a victory, which is what we've been trying to say this whole time. Before he can shut any "haters" up, we need to see him carry the offense. Not throw 19 balls to his first read off PA pass. Thats not leading the team. Thats managing it.

frogstomp
10-16-2006, 11:38 AM
1. Manning

2. Rivers

3. Big Ben

Ben has won, yes, but look at what he does. With better receivers, a better line, and a better defense, he put up

168 62.7 2385 8.90 17 9 98.6 last year.

You know how everyone says Vick is overrated?

214 55.3 2412 6.23 15 13 73.1 last year.

And that's not including rushing yards, in a "bad" season for Vick. So, how is Big Ben one of the top 5 QB's to Steeler fans while Vick is a horrible player? Hmm...

Anyways, Rivers and Eli are both significantly better QB's than Big Ben, from what I've seen of them so far.

bigbluedefense
10-16-2006, 11:43 AM
Eli is good because of his supporting cast, IMO. I still believe he will be great one day but, if say Tiki or Plax went down, would Eli play well.... I doubt it.

Eli played his best half of the season without Plax.

Thats surprising. Anyway, if Tiki were to go down... he'd be screwed. Right now he is just driving the bus, he isnt really great by any means. He will be one day, as of right now, I say he is good not great and is not on the same level of a Philip Rivers.

1. Didn't you also say Drew Bledsoe is better than Eli Manning? How did that one turn out?

2. Eli Manning has played well this year inspite of Tiki Barber outside of this Falcons game. Before the redskins game, Tiki was averaging roughly 50 yards on the ground against Philly and Seattle and Eli was carrying our offense. Thats a weak argument, anyone who watches the Giants will tell you that Eli can do very well without Barber out of the backfield

3. Eli had his best half without Plaxico Burress in the lineup. In fact, he hits Toomer just as much as Plax

4. You also used to use "inaccuracy" and completion % as an excuse. Well, Eli is 3rd in the league in completion %.

5. Phillip Rivers supporting cast is just as good if not better than Elis. Plus he has a far superior oline. Don't use supporting cast as a reason to knock Eli then turn around and say Rivers doesn't have at the very least equal talent.

6. Driving the bus is what Ben did, throwing 19 times. Eli throws over 30 times a game, and has the 2nd most TDs in the league. The only guy ahead of him is McNabb and he didn't have the bye yet. Eli Manning is also 6th in the league in yards. Thats not "driving the bus", thats carrying the offense.

The Giants haven't been conistent offensively until Tiki started rolling. The only win before Tiki broke out was a miracle comeback against the Eagles, And even then the Giants had only one good quarter. There's no way the Giants could've conistently won like that every game.

I don't see how you can say that Eli carried the offense in Seattle, seeing as how he threw the game away in the first quarter and only padded his stats in a meaningless fourth quarter.

And surely you saw the Atlanta game. Eli was downright awful. Surely you can't really believe that Eli would've saved the day in the end. Tiki and is 227 yard performance was to thank for their second half offensive explosion.

Let's not forget that Eli is also second in the league in interceptions. This offense lives and dies on Tiki. Eli's not quite ready to carry the offense.

That game against the Eagles, Eli played well the entire game. His oline finally gave him time in the 4th and he did great, but Eli himself was playing extremely well the entire game when he had time to throw the ball.

Against Seattle, yes he played horrible in the 1st quarter. But even before the 4th, he was playing real well in the 2nd and 3rd quarter. Like we've said before (this has been beaten to absolute death), its not Eli's fault his WR's dropped 2 surefire TD passes and had a fumble in the 2nd and 3rd quarter. Also make no mistake, Seattle was playing the 4th quarter tight after Eli started to come back, and they still couldn't stop him.

Eli was not horrible against Atlanta. He had a rough start, but he was unconscious in the 2nd half. Did you even watch the game? He had a bad first half, but was real good in the 2nd. And thats against a great pass defense in Atlanta.

I will accept the point on INTs. I can point out that at least half of his INTs were off his WR's hands/chest...but INTs are INTs at the end of the day. Yes, he needs to be a little more careful with the ball, but outside of the INTs, he has really shut all the haters up. I noticed there is a TON of Eli hate on this board, and everyone is just looking for a new excuse to rag on him, but you can't deny his ability. Sooner or later, all you guys are just gonna have to deal with it.

Basileus777
10-16-2006, 11:45 AM
1. Manning

2. Rivers

3. Big Ben

Ben has won, yes, but look at what he does. With better receivers, a better line, and a better defense, he put up

168 62.7 2385 8.90 17 9 98.6 last year.

You know how everyone says Vick is overrated?

214 55.3 2412 6.23 15 13 73.1 last year.

And that's not including rushing yards, in a "bad" season for Vick. So, how is Big Ben one of the top 5 QB's to Steeler fans while Vick is a horrible player? Hmm...

Anyways, Rivers and Eli are both significantly better QB's than Big Ben, from what I've seen of them so far.

Ben hasn't had better receivers than Eli since his rookie year. And are you actually claiming that Vick's numbers are as good as Ben's? Well besides having a 25 point better passer rating, Ben also competed 7% more of his passes for 2.7 more ypa. Ben also had more tds and less INTs with less attempts. The only reason the yardage numbers look similar is because Ben was hurt much of the year.

bigbluedefense
10-16-2006, 11:48 AM
1. Manning

2. Rivers

3. Big Ben

Ben has won, yes, but look at what he does. With better receivers, a better line, and a better defense, he put up

168 62.7 2385 8.90 17 9 98.6 last year.

You know how everyone says Vick is overrated?

214 55.3 2412 6.23 15 13 73.1 last year.

And that's not including rushing yards, in a "bad" season for Vick. So, how is Big Ben one of the top 5 QB's to Steeler fans while Vick is a horrible player? Hmm...

Anyways, Rivers and Eli are both significantly better QB's than Big Ben, from what I've seen of them so far.

Ben hasn't had better receivers than Eli since his rookie year. And are you actually claiming that Vick's numbers are as good as Ben's? Well besides having a 25 point better passer rating, Ben also competed 7% more of his passes for 2.7 more ypa. Ben also had more tds and less INTs with less attempts. The only reason the yardage numbers look similar is because Ben was hurt much of the year.

How about all those screen passes Ben does for like 30+ yards? Those don't pad his stats? Michael Vick would be very capable in Pittsburgh's offensive scheme. Ben hasn't shown any more than Vick. And Steeler fans want to talk about poor WR cores, just look at ATL. Vick needs WRs badly.

Zim3031
10-16-2006, 12:16 PM
That game against the Eagles, Eli played well the entire game. His oline finally gave him time in the 4th and he did great, but Eli himself was playing extremely well the entire game when he had time to throw the ball.
The Giants put up a measly 7 points in the first 3 quarters. His offensive wasn't spectacular but he still had chances to make throws that he didn't make until the fourth quarter.

Against Seattle, yes he played horrible in the 1st quarter. But even before the 4th, he was playing real well in the 2nd and 3rd quarter. Like we've said before (this has been beaten to absolute death), its not Eli's fault his WR's dropped 2 surefire TD passes and had a fumble in the 2nd and 3rd quarter. Also make no mistake, Seattle was playing the 4th quarter tight after Eli started to come back, and they still couldn't stop him.

The Giants were down by 32 points by halftime, and 39 by the fourth quarter. Eli played absolutely horribly. No way in Hell does shredding up the second team playing prevent even remotely matter to the outcome of the game.

Eli was not horrible against Atlanta. He had a rough start, but he was unconscious in the 2nd half. Did you even watch the game? He had a bad first half, but was real good in the 2nd. And thats against a great pass defense in Atlanta.
As a matter of fact I did watch this game, seeing as how CBS refuses to put on any good games when the Giants are playing :wink:

Not horrible? Do i need to point out his stats at the beginning of this game? Eli did nothing in this game until Tiki started running the rock that the Giants offense started being explosive. That's because Tiki is the catalyst for this offense. Eli isn't quite there yet.

I will accept the point on INTs. I can point out that at least half of his INTs were off his WR's hands/chest...but INTs are INTs at the end of the day. Yes, he needs to be a little more careful with the ball, but outside of the INTs, he has really shut all the haters up. I noticed there is a TON of Eli hate on this board, and everyone is just looking for a new excuse to rag on him, but you can't deny his ability. Sooner or later, all you guys are just gonna have to deal with it.

If by off their hands you mean 10 feet away from where they're supposed to be and where the receiver is stretching out just to tip them then you're right.

I in no way am an "Eli hater" I just see that Tiki is the key to this offense in every way. And until I see Eli conistently play football for four quarters I will remain that way

bigbluedefense
10-16-2006, 12:28 PM
The Giants put up a measly 7 points in the first 3 quarters. His offensive wasn't spectacular but he still had chances to make throws that he didn't make until the fourth quarter.

Chances? He had less than 2 seconds to let it go. The first drive, he has time, result is 7 points. Until the 4th he doesn't have time, in the 4th he does and he comes back. Also don't forget the costly penalties that kept bringing the offense backwards everytime they gathered momentum. Eli isn't the only one on that offense, other guys gotta do their job too.

The Giants were down by 32 points by halftime, and 39 by the fourth quarter. Eli played absolutely horribly. No way in Hell does shredding up the second team playing prevent even remotely matter to the outcome of the game.

So Eli plays defense now? Even with those picks, if the defense limits them to field goals, and actually stopped the Hawks, Eli wouldn't have to throw every play. And Seattle's second team came in the beginning of the 4th. After 2 TDs, the starters came back and Eli faced blitzes etc. He still couldn't be stopped.


As a matter of fact I did watch this game, seeing as how CBS refuses to put on any good games when the Giants are playing :wink:

Not horrible? Do i need to point out his stats at the beginning of this game? Eli did nothing in this game until Tiki started running the rock that the Giants offense started being explosive. That's because Tiki is the catalyst for this offense. Eli isn't quite there yet.

Eli is known as a 2nd half qb throughout his career. So now, you say he only played well in this game because of Tiki. Against Philly, he got lucky. Against Seattle, he padded his stats. Against Washington, you haven't provided an excuse yet but Im sure you can come up with something...but the point is, you have an excuse to discredit him every game. Thats not hating? Ask anyone who watches our games consistently and they'll tell you we'd be NOTHING without him. He is our offense. We can lose Tiki and still win games. We lose Eli for the season, and we're done. Period. Eli is more important to this offense than Tiki. By a mile. And ATL has an incredible pass D by the way. Even Peyton isn't unstoppable every quarter of every game.

If by off their hands you mean 10 feet away from where they're supposed to be and where the receiver is stretching out just to tip them then you're right.

I in no way am an "Eli hater" I just see that Tiki is the key to this offense in every way. And until I see Eli conistently play football for four quarters I will remain that way

I can cite every single INT he threw and prove you wrong here, but its pointless. A lot of people have this preconceived idea that Eli is still inaccurate. Forget last season. This season he has been very accurate, one of the most accurate in the league in fact. I challenge you to show me any qb in NFL history that threw every single ball in the game in the right spot. If Eli throws even one bad ball, the whole world rags on him. Meanwhile, he's more accurate than McNabb but McNabb is an MVP candidate. Please. We also forget that he went against some very tough defenses. He doesn't have the liberty of playing KC or Oakland twice a year, nor does he have the liberty of playing Cleveland and Cinncy's D twice a year.

eacantdraft
10-16-2006, 12:44 PM
Nice to see, Ben shutting all you haters up. Funny how you all want to be the first to make mad monkey love to Eli and want to just make up excuses for Bens success in his young career. Just goes to show, Ben can lead a team, wether you want to admit it or not. Now of course, 1 game doesn't mean he won't make mistakes this season, but to call for his benching, and say he is overrated is just plain stupid. He is just as valuable to his team, as any other qb in the league.

PLEASE. He went 16-19 and had a good game. You know why? BECAUSE HE THREW IT 19 TIMES...thats why. If anything, he's proven our point about him being a game manager. The diapers came back on yesterday, and he plays well. Do you honestly think Charlie Batch couldn't make the same throws yesterday? I saw the whole game, Ben's first read was open every time he threw the ball. And they weren't just open, they were ridiculously open, like there wasn't a defender within 15 yards of them. Give me a break. Ben will shut us up when he WINS a game with 30+ throws. Let's see him do that. Gradkowski couldve won you yesterday's game. 19 throws is a joke.

When you complete 16 out of 19 for 12 yards per attempt, you don't need to throw it more. You Eli fangirls are laughable. The Giants won yesterday because of Tiki and defense. Eli barely completed more than half of his passes and that 6.0 ypa was fantastic :roll: Eli needed to throw 11 more times in order to complete 1 more pass than Ben.

The object of football is to win championships, not to please the fangirls and the fantasy geeks. Pittsburgh did it last year and Denver and San Diego are doing it this year. Run the ball and playing defense.

Eli showed he was effective yesterday as a game manager though he still has to learn to turn it on in the first half.