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Bengals78
04-28-2007, 07:18 PM
Kenny Irons? Are you kidding me? I'm sorry but for a team that doesnt have a 3rd pick, terrible idea. I cant find reasoning for this.

themaninblack
04-28-2007, 11:23 PM
i love the pick, hes a stud from a tough conference and he's gonna give us another haymaker to throw during games. sure i wouldve like to have seen a defensive player but i knew something like this was going to happen.

Crickett
04-28-2007, 11:30 PM
I'm sure many will. If you guys can find a reason that Chris Perry was anything but an awful pick, I'm sure you can do the same with Irons.

GregB_99
04-30-2007, 08:29 AM
I absolutely LOVE that pick! The best RB from the SEC?! What awesome defensive player were you wanting to take at that point? I'll take a home run hitting RB over a reach at LB or trading any of our very few picks to move up. God forbid Rudi go down with an injury, if Watson was going to be our every down back for an extended period, I would have been selling my seats and staying at home for those games! Irons may need to work on his hands (not sure, it's not like Auburn passes to the RB a lot) but at least having a guy that can team with Rudi, and that Rudi happens to love, on the gameday roster is a good thing.

-Greg

Crickett
04-30-2007, 01:43 PM
I absolutely LOVE that pick! The best RB from the SEC?! What awesome defensive player were you wanting to take at that point? I'll take a home run hitting RB over a reach at LB or trading any of our very few picks to move up. God forbid Rudi go down with an injury, if Watson was going to be our every down back for an extended period, I would have been selling my seats and staying at home for those games! Irons may need to work on his hands (not sure, it's not like Auburn passes to the RB a lot) but at least having a guy that can team with Rudi, and that Rudi happens to love, on the gameday roster is a good thing.

-Greg


Yep, same thing I heard about Chris Perry.

GregB_99
04-30-2007, 02:07 PM
Yep, same thing I heard about Chris Perry.

If you heard Perry was the leading rusher from the SEC then you've been listening to some pretty stupid people. If you're going to hold Perry's unfortunate injuries against Irons... then I am damn glad that you aren't in charge of our drafts. Who exactly did you want with that second pick that was there by the time we got to make it? I don't see anyone that wasn't a reach, and I'd rather them reach for the best player in a lesser needed area than reach and overpay a player because the fans think they know more than the scouts and coaches. You do realize that the NFL will continue to go on beyond just next year right?

PalmerToCJ
04-30-2007, 02:11 PM
Perry was a good pick in '04, I will always argue that. Rudi was going into his UFA year and was only a one year wonder to that point. If he fizzled out or hit it big and didn't re-sign then Perry is a great pick. He also wasn't much of a concern for injuries, just unfortunate really. In '05 he was massive for us.

The more I look at it the more I support the Irons pick. Yes, defense would've been nice but the value wasn't there. I've been afraid of Rudi going down, if that happened we would no longer be screwed.

Marvin likes to run 2 RB systems, just that couldn't happen with Perry being hurt. This will have a large enough impact on the offense to warrant the pick. Plus there's no way we keep Perry after next year so RB was going to be the pick next year, might as well address it this year given he was BPA.

Crickett
04-30-2007, 02:33 PM
If you heard Perry was the leading rusher from the SEC then you've been listening to some pretty stupid people. If you're going to hold Perry's unfortunate injuries against Irons... then I am damn glad that you aren't in charge of our drafts. Who exactly did you want with that second pick that was there by the time we got to make it? I don't see anyone that wasn't a reach, and I'd rather them reach for the best player in a lesser needed area than reach and overpay a player because the fans think they know more than the scouts and coaches. You do realize that the NFL will continue to go on beyond just next year right?

Yeah. I mean, its quite clear drafting a third string running back in the second round was exactly what the Bengals needed. Why, I'm surprised he made it past the Chargers, Saints, Jaguars and Chiefs to make it to the Bengals.

If Chris Perry could contribute 740 yards to the Bengals in 3 years after being drafted in the first round, I can only assume that Kenny Irons should be able to contribute at least..... 600 yards in the same amount of time. Well worth a second round draft pick.

Its a good thing Marvin likes to run 2 running back systems. After all, that 150-250 yards the Bengals #2 RB has provided each of the past 3 years were invaluable. Clearly enough to warrent using a #1 AND a #2 draft pick in a span of four drafts.

Seriously, other than a QB, just about anything would have made more sense IMO. A defensive linemen to be the heir apparent to Sam Adams or a replacement for the franchise tagged Justin Smith. Heck, with Kelly Washington gone and Chris Henry suspended for half the season and future with the team uncertain, I'd say even a wide receiver would have made more sense.

I_C_DeadPeople
04-30-2007, 02:53 PM
The only other DT taken in round 2 after Irons was Turk McBride and he is very undersized, 280 lbs or so.

The 4 DE's taken after Irons in round 2 were Crowder, Abaimiri, Bazuin and Alma-Francis. Many thought Crowder was not that effective on the field. If we had selected either Alma-Francis or Bazuin most fans would have screamed REACH at the top of their lungs. Abaimiri is a guy I thought may be a fit for us but I guess the war room thought otherwise.

PalmerToCJ
04-30-2007, 03:35 PM
I would've liked Abiamiri... He's the one guy.

Thing being they're very high on Frostee and Geathers has big money so DE isn't up their on the FO's need list. If Frostee is the above average player they make him out to then this was a great pick as RB was a bigger need really. If Frostee flops Marvin is going to hear about it...

GregB_99
04-30-2007, 04:16 PM
Cricket, I hate to break it to you, but Irons will be option 1b in the run game, not a third string back. I understand that you're upset with Perry being injured, and I'm sure he is to, but to say that's all he could gain in 3 years, when I think he's only actually played about 19-20 games is kind of crazy. I just don't see any position other than Kalil at center that would have been a better value at that point. Don't forget that Marvin and Company get to see the practice squad and guys recovering from injury, they know how Henderson, Rucker and Fanene are developing.

I just don't see this as a clear cut stats issue like you are. I think our defense will be better this year just by our offense converting a third down once in a blue freaking moon and keeping them off the field. And if you seriously think Rudi is a good third down back, then let me know and I'll go debate with my wall instead of you. There are plenty of factors that caused our defense to play like crap last year and a lot of them would not be solved by adding 7 defensive rookies.

Crickett
04-30-2007, 04:50 PM
Cricket, I hate to break it to you, but Irons will be option 1b in the run game, not a third string back.

Sure, just like Chris Perry will be circa 2004.


I understand that you're upset with Perry being injured, and I'm sure he is to, but to say that's all he could gain in 3 years, when I think he's only actually played about 19-20 games is kind of crazy.

Well, its funny, Perry averaged over four a half yards per carry. So if he only got 337 yards rushing.... its because he never got the ball (73 carries!). So much for a two back system.


I just don't see any position other than Kalil at center that would have been a better value at that point. Don't forget that Marvin and Company get to see the practice squad and guys recovering from injury, they know how Henderson, Rucker and Fanene are developing.

Kenny Irons wasn't Cadillac Williams at Auburn and he was by no means a steal in the second round. Combine that with w Bengals team which only needed a QB or CB LESS than a RB. And the lesser CB need comes from just drafting one a round earlier.


I just don't see this as a clear cut stats issue like you are. I think our defense will be better this year just by our offense converting a third down once in a blue freaking moon and keeping them off the field. And if you seriously think Rudi is a good third down back, then let me know and I'll go debate with my wall instead of you.

The Bengals were eighth in total offense and scoring offense. If the Bengals offense lacked time of possession (and apparently they did), it is by design.

There are plenty of factors that caused our defense to play like crap last year and a lot of them would not be solved by adding 7 defensive rookies.

And exactly how many day one picks did the Bengals use on their 30th ranked defense? I could have sworn it was only one. I can't imagine many 30th ranked defenses who are one player away from being good.

PalmerToCJ
04-30-2007, 05:37 PM
The only defender you can make a case for is Abiamiri (in terms of BPA). But like I said with big money in Geathers/Smith and 3rd rounder in Frostee who they all think will be good, why go DE again?

CB we were obviously fine at, no good fits at S... That rules out the secondary.

LB didn't have guys that would've been fits (Durant and Harris would've been nice)... Plus it seems Ed Hartwell will sign with the team shortly.

DT didn't have any adequate players, McBride is too small for our D and Tank Tyler has character concerns, plus he's a Shaun Smith clone.

If Frostee doesn't pan out we can look back and say "should've picked Abiamiri", if Frostee is good and Abiamiri is average then you could only make an argument for Ryan Kalil... I personally think Ghiaciuc and Wilkerson can get the job done.

Given the situation I support the pick.

Geathers/Brooks/Peko/JJ/Madieu still have plenty of room to grow, we fixed the biggest defensive weakness at CB #2. WLB is the only real big spot for improvement in my eyes but there was no one there to do that. Hartwell can be signed to play MLB initially with Ahmad at SLB (Odell coming in later to take MLB back over potentially) and Landon at WLB.

I also really liked the Toeaina pick for the future at DT once Adams/Robinson/Thornton leave after next year maybe.

Next year we could go WLB-DT and pending what Frostee does and assuming Smith doesn't get signed long term DE. Plus there's potential for plenty of Comp. picks as well. Backup RB was going to have to be addressed at least by next year and as young as our defense is it's still improving.

Crickett
04-30-2007, 05:54 PM
The only defender you can make a case for is Abiamiri (in terms of BPA).

Considering Sam Adams age, I'd make the argument for Tank Tyler too. He may have been taken a bit later, but IMO, he would have been just as much of a value at the Bengals pick as Kenny Irons. Except he'd have a better shot at providing a significant contribution.

And as I said before, considering the departure of Kelly Washington and Chris Henry's suspension and suspect future with the team, WR actually would have made more sense IMO.

Scarlet&GreyBengal
04-30-2007, 08:29 PM
what part of tank tyler is a bad character player didnt u understand

Bengals1690
04-30-2007, 08:35 PM
Considering Sam Adams age, I'd make the argument for Tank Tyler too. He may have been taken a bit later, but IMO, he would have been just as much of a value at the Bengals pick as Kenny Irons. Except he'd have a better shot at providing a significant contribution.

And as I said before, considering the departure of Kelly Washington and Chris Henry's suspension and suspect future with the team, WR actually would have made more sense IMO.

really, no one cares abuot your opinion. the only way i will ever care about your opinion is if you suddenly become the GM of the Cincinnnati Bengals, and as i dont see that happening anytime soon, shut the **** up.

quit bashing people for supporting a pick that really wasnt that bad. kenny irons was BPA and no other player really was a good value. If Rudi goes down we have no one behind him, plus he is slow, Irons will be a good change of pace. Kenny was the 3rd or 4th best back in this draft, and as Perry (aka mark prior) will get injured, i really dont see your bef with the pick.

Bengals78
04-30-2007, 09:11 PM
after calming down, i think irons is a good pick, hes very talented and a great guy, but i wasnt expecting it and add in i think there might have been better D players available

PalmerToCJ
04-30-2007, 09:26 PM
As I said earlier. Tank Tyler = Shaun Smith with character problems. Not happening.

ThePudge
04-30-2007, 09:27 PM
I'm with PalmerToCJ here, the pick kind of grew on me. With the uncertain, almost doubtful, future of Chris Perry with the team it was a good idea to give Rudi some rest and take Irons to compliment him. Irons may not be the biggest guy, but he's fast, shifty, and runs with surprising power for a man his size. He played at a high level of competition in college and played very well, especially that junior season. Sure he's been nicked up, but I don't think that should necessarily turn the Bengals away. His injury problems already dropped him from the First Round (which he would have been had he come out last year) to the Mid-Second where we picked him up.

Nowadays, you need that two back system. Look at both teams in both the AFC and NFC Championship games last year. New England (Dillon and Maroney), Indianapolis (Addai and Rhodes), New Orleans (McAllister and Bush), and Chicago (Jones and Benson). I think Rudi and Irons stack up pretty well with them and may compliment eachother better than any of those combinations, other than McAllister and Bush.

Apparently, Irons is in the Special Teams plans and may be tried as a returner, though he has never done that before. (In college at least)

Crickett
04-30-2007, 09:45 PM
really, no one cares abuot your opinion. the only way i will ever care about your opinion is if you suddenly become the GM of the Cincinnnati Bengals, and as i dont see that happening anytime soon, shut the **** up.

This is a message board. If you have a problem with my opinion, don't bother reading it.

quit bashing people

The only one bashing anybody here is you. I didn't say anything about anybody. Just the topic at hand which is the selection of Kenny Irons.

If you have problems with people disagreeing with you, then what the **** are you doing on a message board?

for supporting a pick that really wasnt that bad. kenny irons was BPA and no other player really was a good value. If Rudi goes down we have no one behind him, plus he is slow, Irons will be a good change of pace.

So was Chris Perry who last I checked was still a Bengal, so there IS someone behind Rudi Johnson on the depth chart.


Kenny was the 3rd or 4th best back in this draft, and as Perry (aka mark prior) will get injured, i really dont see your bef with the pick.

Chris Perry was draft as a "change of pace guy" and an insurance policy in case Rudi Johnson left. Well, Rudi stayed and Perry became a gloried backup.

Well, now Kenny, who was no where close to the BPA by the way was drafted to be an insurance policy to the Bengals BACKUP running back and as a second rounder, a glorified third string running back.


As for Tank Tyler, his history isn't spotless, but it's not like he ran a bus full of nuns off the road.


Nowadays, you need that two back system. Look at both teams in both the AFC and NFC Championship games last year. New England (Dillon and Maroney), Indianapolis (Addai and Rhodes), New Orleans (McAllister and Bush), and Chicago (Jones and Benson).

Funny you should say that as Chicago traded Jones, and both Rhodes and Dillon both left. Indianapolis didn't draft a running back and New England didn't until the late rounds. Now you have Cincinnati, who has been featuring one running back since Corey Dillon left and Chris Perry who he was supposed to split time with has spent most of his time off the injured list.... on the bench.

ThePudge
04-30-2007, 09:53 PM
Funny you should say that as Chicago traded Jones, and both Rhodes and Dillon both left. Indianapolis didn't draft a running back and New England didn't until the late rounds. Now you have Cincinnati, who has been featuring one running back since Corey Dillon left and Chris Perry who he was supposed to split time with has spent most of his time off the injured list.... on the bench.

Is this supposed to be a point? I made a point and you countered with somehing irrelevant. So what if Indy, Chicago and New England got rid of a back? They went to the AFC Championship and NFC Championship games running two back systems. I'm not concerned with them this year. They let their backs go, that's their fault. I'm concerned with the Bengals. In 2005-2006 when the Bengals had both Rudi and Chris Perry their offense was nearly unstoppable, when he went down they lost a major part of their offense. Now you add a healthy Kenny Irons to the depth chart at RB and suddenly it makes everything look a lot better

Crickett
04-30-2007, 10:07 PM
Is this supposed to be a point? I made a point and you countered with somehing irrelevant. So what if Indy, Chicago and New England got rid of a back? They went to the AFC Championship and NFC Championship games running two back systems. I'm not concerned with them this year. They let their backs go, that's their fault. I'm concerned with the Bengals. In 2005-2006 when the Bengals had both Rudi and Chris Perry their offense was nearly unstoppable, when he went down they lost a major part of their offense. Now you add a healthy Kenny Irons to the depth chart at RB and suddenly it makes everything look a lot better

1. A point? Sure, all three of those teams had two back systems to help transition their rookie running backs into the NFL. Benson was not a rookie, but he injured for so much of his rookie season, he might as well have been. The Bengals have no such problem. All three teams had dual back systems and either lost or got rid of one of the two backs without much in the way of a replacement if one at all.

2. Whats with the assumption that Chris Perry won't return? The assumption in Perry's selection was that Rudi Johnson might not return. He did. If Chris Perry returns too (and I don't see any reason why not) Kenny Irons will be third on the depth chart. And Watson, he has had five yards a carry over the course of his career may find himself off the team.

3. From 2005 to 2006, the Cincinnati Bengals offense dropped all the way from sixth to.... eighth.

4. In three seasons, Chris Perry only had 73 carries. Even if you discount his rookie season, still only 71 carries. Not a whole lot if I do say so myself. So why would anything be different with Irons?

themaninblack
04-30-2007, 11:31 PM
crickett is just a naysayer, let him be.

Bengals1690
05-01-2007, 09:36 AM
This is a message board. If you have a problem with my opinion, don't bother reading it.



The only one bashing anybody here is you. I didn't say anything about anybody. Just the topic at hand which is the selection of Kenny Irons.

If you have problems with people disagreeing with you, then what the **** are you doing on a message board?



So was Chris Perry who last I checked was still a Bengal, so there IS someone behind Rudi Johnson on the depth chart.




Chris Perry was draft as a "change of pace guy" and an insurance policy in case Rudi Johnson left. Well, Rudi stayed and Perry became a gloried backup.

Well, now Kenny, who was no where close to the BPA by the way was drafted to be an insurance policy to the Bengals BACKUP running back and as a second rounder, a glorified third string running back.


As for Tank Tyler, his history isn't spotless, but it's not like he ran a bus full of nuns off the road.




Funny you should say that as Chicago traded Jones, and both Rhodes and Dillon both left. Indianapolis didn't draft a running back and New England didn't until the late rounds. Now you have Cincinnati, who has been featuring one running back since Corey Dillon left and Chris Perry who he was supposed to split time with has spent most of his time off the injured list.... on the bench.

uin case you didnt notice, we usually dont get in arguments here (in the Bengals team forum), so quit stirring **** up. If you attack my fellow bengal fans, expect to get it back. Chris Perry likely will be PUP, and who else was better value here? and if you say tyler i will be pissed. he is best suited as a 34 nose tackle, and thats just not our system, plus there were questions about his work ethic, which is not what we need. Kenny Irons had a great year, even though he was nicked up and played in a conference full of great defenses. Durant or harris prolly would have been the pick but they got drasfted before us. Plus, im confident about our defensive line. Smith and Geathers are both good on the edge, Peko is solid, and adams will finally be heathly, plus he is on an offseason conditioning plan and he says hes feeling better than he has in a while.

themaninblack
05-03-2007, 12:13 AM
im gonna laugh so hardcore when you see what this kid can do. he's been compared to cadillac and he was hurt and his supporting cast wasn't even close. were gonna be gettin our WAR EAGLE on this season!

Crickett
08-06-2008, 10:53 AM
You know, I gotta apologize to you guys. You were right about this and I was wrong all along. I just don't know what I was thinking when I criticized the pick.

themaninblack
08-06-2008, 01:30 PM
Can't criticize when he never saw the field. Your sarcasm is funny.

Unless he was released for a reason other than Injury, its actually kind of sad that you would even say that. But hey, whatever makes you feel better.

BengalMedic
08-06-2008, 02:18 PM
You know, I gotta apologize to you guys. You were right about this and I was wrong all along. I just don't know what I was thinking when I criticized the pick.
Crickett, I wasn't around when this came up last year, but it sounds like you were disagreeing with the pick based on what Irons was going to provide the Bengals vs. when he was picked. What I didn't see was anything stating why he wouldn't have been a good RB at the time of him being drafted. He seemed to be at least a solid RB coming out of the SEC and though you didn't agree with where Perry was injury wise, Perry was at best a question mark and Rudi wasn't getting younger.

Irons sustained a major knee injury and NEVER saw a regular season carry, so it's hard to argue what he would or would not have become in this offense. Certainly not to a degree that it could be argued that the pick was good or bad.

If you want to say the defensive needs were greater, I'm cool with that and would even agree, but it's no more than a crap shoot to say definitively that it was a wasted pick. It's a shame he got injured and it's really a mute point as he will probably never play again.

Once again, I don't know you, but have to question your coming back to gloat about a point you weren't really making to begin with...

Crickett
08-06-2008, 03:06 PM
Crickett, I wasn't around when this came up last year, but it sounds like you were disagreeing with the pick based on what Irons was going to provide the Bengals vs. when he was picked. What I didn't see was anything stating why he wouldn't have been a good RB at the time of him being drafted. He seemed to be at least a solid RB coming out of the SEC and though you didn't agree with where Perry was injury wise, Perry was at best a question mark and Rudi wasn't getting younger.

Irons sustained a major knee injury and NEVER saw a regular season carry, so it's hard to argue what he would or would not have become in this offense. Certainly not to a degree that it could be argued that the pick was good or bad.

If you want to say the defensive needs were greater, I'm cool with that and would even agree, but it's no more than a crap shoot to say definitively that it was a wasted pick. It's a shame he got injured and it's really a mute point as he will probably never play again.

Once again, I don't know you, but have to question your coming back to gloat about a point you weren't really making to begin with...

Well, keep this in mind too. This thread was the first and only time I got rep raped on this forum. So yeah, I'm coming back to gloat.

themaninblack
08-06-2008, 05:41 PM
Gloating over a major knee injury that will probably end his career? All class.

PalmerToCJ
08-06-2008, 09:47 PM
Well, keep this in mind too. This thread was the first and only time I got rep raped on this forum. So yeah, I'm coming back to gloat.

What is there to gloat about? That a guy had a likely career ending injury 2 plays into his career? You should be proud.

A healthy Irons would've been huge last year with Rudi sucking.

Crickett
08-06-2008, 10:42 PM
What is there to gloat about? That a guy had a likely career ending injury 2 plays into his career? You should be proud.

A healthy Irons would've been huge last year with Rudi sucking.

Yeah, I'm not gloating that I was right that Kenny Irons was a poor choice by the Bengals, or how absurd the "but Chris Perry is injury prone" reasoning was, or that he's off the team after so little time. No, I'm gloating that he got hurt. Right. :rolleyes:

Bengalsrocket
08-06-2008, 11:02 PM
If injuries didn't occur it would have been a really intelligent pick imo. You can't throw every high end pick at your defense, or else you'll end up with no offense in a few years. This year we went LB / WR too; we would have been fine on WR even if Chad left (I highly doubt Simpson plays anything more than slot and he'll be splitting that time with another receiver).

Is it a wasted pick even if he is basically useless to us this year? no, because we need to think about more than 08. Likewise with kenny, he probably would have been the 2nd back at most in 08, and probably in 09 too if he was healthy. But as a franchise you have to look past whats right in front of you and see the future. And if Kenny Irons had stayed healthy he would eventually have been Rudi's replacement I think.

PalmerToCJ
08-06-2008, 11:18 PM
Yeah, I'm not gloating that I was right that Kenny Irons was a poor choice by the Bengals, or how absurd the "but Chris Perry is injury prone" reasoning was, or that he's off the team after so little time. No, I'm gloating that he got hurt. Right. :rolleyes:

Neither side can prove right or wrong in this case... The guy essentially never played, got hurt and was gone. Just one of those deals.

You could say he would've never worked and I can't prove you wrong. I could also say he would've been huge last year and you can't prove me wrong. Just one of those deals.

BengalMedic
08-07-2008, 08:39 AM
Well, keep this in mind too. This thread was the first and only time I got rep raped on this forum. So yeah, I'm coming back to gloat.

I still don't get it, but will leave it at this:

You made the argument that it wasn't a wise pick based on (I'm assuming by your reasoning provided) that the Bengals had greater defensive needs, but NOT because there was anything verifiable by his college stats that he wouldn't be a productive NFL back.

That being said, HE GOT INJURED and never took a snap thereby leaving people without ever knowing if he was going to be the productive back people thought he would or a bust.

So what exactly is there to gloat about ?? Him being released did not prove your original point...

I'll follow all of this up with, I don't really give a sh*t about him being gone as our RB depth is still pretty solid with Watson, Dorsey, and Johnson, but that wasn't the case when he was drafted...