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etk
04-29-2007, 06:04 PM
I'm not a big fan of this draft at all, and I really doubt Gruden's ability to draft and evaluate talent.

1. Gaines Adams: If the rumours were true that we could've traded both 2nd and this pick for CJ, we should've done that. I'd rather Okoye here, he's 4 full years younger than Adams and we could've picked several solid DEs later on. On the other hand, we didn't get a DT til the 5th because of the lack of talent.
B+

2a. Arron Sears: I won't accept any justification for this pick. If we want an interior lineman we could've draft Blalock or Kalil. Lots of other great options here as well, but we take an oversized G with poor feet. He can't play T either because of his lack of length and lack of quickness, once again.
F

2b. Sabby Piscitelli: Right idea with the position, but wrong player. He reminds me too much of Phillips and isn't an upgrade over him IMO. He looks like a career special teamer because of his tackling inconsistencies and poor field awareness. Doesn't move as well as numbers indicate.
C

Note: It's even more aggravating that we didn't trade up for CJ because of the picks we used in his place....

3. Quincy Black: Pretty good player and a good fit, but OLB isn't an immediate need. We could've added instant-impact WRs here. If we took Okoye we could've stolen Charles Johnson here....
B-

4. Tanard Jackson: Best pick of our draft and best value. He's versatile and I love his playmaking abilities, run support and closing speed.
A+

5. Greg Peterson: Undervalued UT prospect. I like this pick because he needs time to develop so obviously we are content with a Wyms/Carter rotation for now. He has a big frame and good quickness with untapped potential.
A-

6. Adam Hayward: Don't know much about this guy but we passed up some good MLBs to take him (Siler, Harris, Bishop)
C+

7. Chris Denman, Marcus Hamilton, Kenneth Darby: Denman and Hamilton provide good depth. Darby has little chance to make an impact whereas a guy like Darius Walker could be an effective weapon in the passing game.
B

Overall:
Some good picks and some terrible ones. I'm very bitter as a whole because of the path we took, missing out on some great value and steals because of previous reaches. The players we took with make very little impact as rookies and we need to win now. This draft makes me think our management is rebuilding, or they just don't know how to manipulate the draft. Our division rivals landed plenty of steals like Jarrett, Johnson, Blalock, Houston, Kalil etc.
C

Tampa 2 4 life
04-29-2007, 06:24 PM
From the other thread with stuff added:
Adams wouldn't be my top choice, but with Grant off the market and Rice leaving next year it's not a bad pick. Monte really seems high on him, In the post pick press conference He was bouncing off the walls, and lining up and acting out the moves Adams could do.

Buenning is moving to Center. We had Sears visit, If he was there man, we now have a need at LG, So it makes sense. He could also see some time at LT, But I doubt it. I Might've gone with Blalock instead but doesn't have the technique Sears does and =maybe that was the deciding factor.

I was mixed on Piscatelli, Then I heard an interview of his. He played the Cover Two in High School and its his favorite defense, Like most of our other picks, it really seemed like he wanted to play for the Bucs. He ended the interview by stating something to the extent of: "It doesn't matter to me If I start at day one, As long as I can say I was one of the Hardest Working players in the league." That's the kind of player we need on this team. He's growing on me and I'd think he could challenge for a starting job.

Quincy Black, It's not a terrible pick like others are saying, but it's certainly not great. He played the same scheme and position Brian Urlacher played(The "Lobo" Linebacker) so immediately he's gonna provide depth up the middle, but he has the speed to play WLB, so he can also be groomed to be Brooks' replacement. Personally, I think he'd fit best as an MLB in a cover two because of his pass protection, which could move Ruud out of Pasass Protection. I would like that.

Tanard Jackson - Could be a steal if groomed correctly. I'd like to see him replace Brian Kelly although he could easily become a FS. Good pick.

Greg Peterson - Is most likely going to be placed at UT. I like his size and if he gets developed correctly we could have a starter. I like his upside and how he plays now.

Adam Hayward - I don't really see the need of another Linebacker. I couldn't find much on him, But from I did find I think he fits good, just we have no need for him.

"ADAM HAYWARD Portland State 6’0” 235 Sr. OLB
Strong, fast and versatile. Has played ILB/OLB, DE and Safety. Transfer from Colorado State. Led team in tackles this season. A huge playmaker that has an amazing motor. Named DPOY this season. 2006: 104t, 16.5tfl, 9.5 sacks, 7pbu, qbh, FR, 3FF, SN All American, AP All American, All Big Sky"

http://www.martynmatt.blogspot.com/ <-Source
SideNote: Almost the exact size of Derrick Brooks, Same height and only a one pound difference. I think he's gonna be the WLB of the future.
Chris Denman - Decent value in the 7th round, should be a depth guy.

Marcus Hamilton - Another Developmental guy who could be a decent Cover Two corner, as his biggest weakness(Speed) isn't a factor. He plays the run well and is good in the zone.

Kenneth Darby - Average Running Back. I'd rather have Earnest Graham get carries over him.

Summary: I really like how the Gruden/Allen co. drafted. The difference being we actually gave Monte Kiffin some help! They seem to want to rebuild instead of going with the Quick fix. The only things I'm iffy on are:

Did we actually get an impact DT?


No KR/PR?

But, from what I've seen from Hamilton I like, so these things are very minor,

GRADE: B+

TwOne
04-29-2007, 06:33 PM
etk about the sears pick, some dont like Blalock (including me) because he played so much tackle in college and they dont know how he will transition and Kalil wouldve been nice but is undersized. Buenning is moving to Center and Sears is going to play LG. And sears can play, LT,LG,RG,or RT. I don't see where you come off saying that he can not play tackle since he was one of the best OL in the draft when it comes to versatility.

Tampa 2 4 life
04-29-2007, 06:42 PM
I don't feel like editing my post again, But when I say that Quincy Black can split time with Barrett Ruud, I mean replace. He fits WAY better as a Cover Two MLB than Ruud, I thought Quincy Black had issues shedding blocks and stopping the run, but that seems to be wrong. He's bigger than Ruud, A better fit in our defense than Ruud, and will start over Ruud sooner or later.

-black
04-29-2007, 06:46 PM
I'm upset right now. I really wish we would have traded for CJ if this was the draft we were going to get. A Backup S and a G/T who wont be great at anything, moreso decent. Plus I dont see the need for a G at all. Kalil was RIGHT THERE for the taking.

I'd much rather have the Panthers draft over ours

i'd take Beason, Kalil, Charles Johnson, and DJ over what we drafted (and we supposedly had better pick positioning).

The only picks I think couldbe very good for us is Adams and Tanard. In a way I wish Gruden would have tried to trade for Moss with our 4th round pick.

I mean I'm just upset, I could look back a year later and be wrong. But I would had rather traded our two first rounders, and still get Charles Johnson and Tanard Jackson. That gives us that impact S (since I think he switches) and LDE.

Its a C draft, nothing special, and surely not what it could have been. Gruden has usually struct gold with our 1st rounders, so lets see how Adams plays. Still, CJ was in our hands, and we didnt take him.

Tampa 2 4 life
04-29-2007, 06:52 PM
Plus I dont see the need for a G at all.

Buenning is moving to Center. Which opens up a hole at LG.

-black
04-29-2007, 07:00 PM
Buenning should stay at LG (I stated this awhile ago) because he has played well there when healthy. Lets keep him at G and take a pure C who is IMO the best overall lineman in the draft (better than Joe Thomas, just at a lower rated position). Plus Anthony Davis can play LG. Im really hoping Sears isnt Cosey Coleman part 2 or either just a glorified Anthony Davis.

SeanTaylorRIP
04-29-2007, 07:12 PM
I didn't call Marcus Hamilton to the Bucs 4 months ago.

Caddy
04-29-2007, 07:14 PM
Adams - Can't say I was shocked with this pick in anyway. With Calvin off the board he was really a no-brainer and the staff obviously didn't take to Okoye as much as we had thought. We have locked down our RE of the next 8 years. My only concern is his age. B+

Sears - When I first saw this pick I hated it. However, games are won and lost in the trenches and if he improves our running game and passing game then it will be a good pick. He will be starting at LG before half way through the season. C

Piscitelli - I know some people are scared off by his tackling skills, but the kid is an impact at safety and might be just what we need. He will probably start somewhere before the season is over. B

Black - With his speed I see him as the heir apparent to Brooks. He is raw and inexperienced and definitely needs some work before he sees any time on the field. Don't be confused by the fact that he played the same position as Urlacher in College either. Boom or Bust kind of guy. B

Jackson - Good value pick, but a guy with a few character concerns. If he plays CB he probably won't see the field at all except in Dime/Special Teams. He also has potential at FS and a starting safety duo of Jackson/Piscitelli could be in order. A-

Peterson - I'm not really sure if he is going to play as an end or tackle in our system. He is undersized for a tackle at just over 270lbs. His speed is one thing that really intrigues me. B+

Hayward - I remember the Buc's bringing him in a few months ago and really didn't think anything of it. The front office/coaches must have seen something, and if nothing else he will replace Ruud on ST's.

Denman - What can you say about a 7th round pick? He is probably destined for the Practice Squad and faces an uphill battle to make the roster. C

Hamilton - Like Denman, will have to beat out Zemaitas, Davis, Bolden and Cox just to make the roster which I don't see happening. C-

Darby - He is just plain slow and with Graham's special team skills I can't see him making it as our 3rd RB. D

Overall I think this is a draft for the future. There will most likely be little instant rewards, but in a year or so this draft could have been the infusion of youth our defense has been lacking.

TwOne
04-29-2007, 07:55 PM
Buenning should stay at LG (I stated this awhile ago) because he has played well there when healthy. Lets keep him at G and take a pure C who is IMO the best overall lineman in the draft (better than Joe Thomas, just at a lower rated position). Plus Anthony Davis can play LG. Im really hoping Sears isnt Cosey Coleman part 2 or either just a glorified Anthony Davis.We dont know if Anthony Davis can play LG.

TwOne
04-29-2007, 07:56 PM
I don't feel like editing my post again, But when I say that Quincy Black can split time with Barrett Ruud, I mean replace. He fits WAY better as a Cover Two MLB than Ruud, I thought Quincy Black had issues shedding blocks and stopping the run, but that seems to be wrong. He's bigger than Ruud, A better fit in our defense than Ruud, and will start over Ruud sooner or later.Ruud isnt going to get replaced, why would we not give him a chance? thats completely STUPID.

Tampa 2 4 life
04-29-2007, 08:01 PM
Ruud isnt going to get replaced, why would we not give him a chance? thats completely STUPID.

He's not good in pass coverage, and that's something a cover two MLB needs to do. I think he's great in Run coverage, but Black fills in where he's lacking.

etk
04-29-2007, 08:07 PM
Now here's the thoughts portion of my post for this thread:

-Our draft puts a lot of pressure on Clayton to perform again and Galloway to stay healthy. We didn't draft a WR or any playmakers for that matter, so our coaches are obviously content with our starters and like the prospects for Stovall entering the season. If they are right in that sense this draft I'll upgrade this draft a full letter. This also leaves David Boston another chance to make and impact and make the roster.

-Gruden sees Offensive Line as the root of our problems offensively. Obviously he values line play higher than anyone, because Sears was questionable need/value in the early 2nd. Once again I'm not sure we have the playmakers necessary to succeed consistently, but with strong line play Cadillac should have a career year while Simms will make better decisions. We have solid youth at all 5 line positions, and even if Davis is not the long-term answer at LT we can still draft one in the next 2 years.

-I'm very nervous about our defensive line still. Adams will immediately become a force on passing downs, where teams will find it difficult to stop him and Rice on a daily basis. We still have a starting 4 of Spires/Rice/Hovan/Wyms with questionable depth still. Kevin Carter could prove to be an asset but our run defense will struggle again this year.

-We will have a dominant pass defense again. Our pass rush will cause a lot of problems with Adams, Rice, Wyms & Carter all adept at getting to the QB. We will be able to drop back our linebackers more often, allowing Brooks & June to shine in coverage. Cato June could potentially make a ton of plays picking off forced passes down the middle, I'm starting to love that signing. Our defensive backs are not particularly special but our safeties should improve, allowing our front seven to make life easier. Will Allen will get his confidence back. I expect a lot of defensive TDs like the Super Bowl days.

-Brian Kelly will be cut, and Tanard Jackson could start by Week 10 or so.

-Black and Piscitelli will be monsters on Special Teams while Denman makes the team at some point contrary to 'caddy's views.

-We will have to wait until 2008+ before we return a kickoff for a TD.....

etk
04-29-2007, 08:08 PM
He's not good in pass coverage, and that's something a cover two MLB needs to do. I think he's great in Run coverage, but Black fills in where he's lacking.

Cato June will be our MLB on passing downs. Quincy Black was not drafted to replace Ruud, he was drafted for special teams and as Brooks' future replacement

ks_perfection
04-29-2007, 08:10 PM
1. Gaines Adams: He was the best player left for our current needs. I'd rather have traded the two 2nd rounders we got for CJ.
B-

2a. Arron Sears: I think this guy will make an above average Guard. However, I don't like the idea of shifting him to a position he hasn't shown he can dominate and than in turn shiftin Buenning to a new position we don't know how he'll do when we could have just taken Kali who we knew could dominate at Center. Does'nt make sense to play musical chairs with players when you can take a player you know can produce.
D

2b. Sabby Piscitelli: Alright since we needed an upgrade at safety, but it wasn't good value and I dont see this guy being above average.
C


3. Quincy Black: Very good player, not excatly sure how the whole LB core is going to be sorted out. Looks like more musical chairs going to happen, but unlike lineman there wasn't a great player at Strong side we could have taken.
B

4. Tanard Jackson: Great value, fits the system as a corner and potentially could play safety.
A+

5. Greg Peterson: This guy looks like a project, but if he pans out could be a great player and thats what you look for in the late rounds. Probably won't make a big impact early (but with our current DTs he might be forced in)
A

6. Adam Hayward: Who? From the tiny info I could find on Foxsports "Classic Cover-2 linebacker, but his size issues might make him a better fit at weak-side rather than strong-side" we really don't need another weak side linebacker. What makes this pick worse is that we passed on Wendling at Safety.
F

7. Chris Denman: Good, could potentially be a starter at RT. Thats really what you look for in the 7th round, potential to be above average.
A

Marcus Hamilton: Good depth, not a potential to be a starter but does provide depth.
B+

Last guy I can't remember his name and its not worth looking up sicne we'll never see him playing.
F

Overall: Poor, with the high picks and 2 2nd rounders we should have done alot better. Just thought of something else we could have done with our 2nds besides get CJ. Take Weddle 2a and trade up from 2b to get Kali.

Overall C

C

-black
04-29-2007, 08:10 PM
We dont know if Anthony Davis can play LG.

kind of like how we dont know if Buenning can play C right?:rolleyes:

Davis was recruited as a Guard out of high school and when he came into the draft he was seen as a guard or RT prospect since he played it some at Virginia Tech (sounds like Sears if you ask me).

Tampa 2 4 life
04-29-2007, 08:13 PM
I'm gonna make a wild prediction:

Gaines Adams will beat out Rice for the starting DE job. Just a gut feeling.

Tampa 2 4 life
04-29-2007, 08:16 PM
Cato June will be our MLB on passing downs. Quincy Black was not drafted to replace Ruud, he was drafted for special teams and as Brooks' future replacement

Hmm, it could happen, it just to me after investigating Hayward, he seems like almost a clone of Brooks and could easily replace him. He modeled his entire game after him and Gruden said "He needs to make huge plays for our team"(Not exact quote).

-black
04-29-2007, 08:19 PM
thats def a wild prediciton. I got one too

Rice is one of the hardest workers on this team, I confidently can say he is almost the Joey Galloway of our defense. I predict he comes back in some of the best shape of his life, and his pride/ego pushes him to get back to his 2005 play. I think he has a really good 10-14 sack type of year.

dude is still in great shape and I KNOW he feels disrespected and undervalued as a NFL player. He feels he doesnt get the respect as a potential HOF. I think that fires him up (along with rumored to being on the trade block AND us using a 1st round pick on a defensive end)

etk
04-29-2007, 08:22 PM
Hmm, it could happen, it just to me after investigating Hayward, he seems like almost a clone of Brooks and could easily replace him. He modeled his entire game after him and Gruden said "He needs to make huge plays for our team"(Not exact quote).

I'm pretty sure Hayward will play MLB, but it's possible that Black will backup Ruud there for now as we don't have one.

Chucky
04-29-2007, 08:22 PM
I might be missing something but umm why cant adams and rice start together.

-black
04-29-2007, 08:23 PM
any prospect with the name "Black" has to be a good guy :)

-black
04-29-2007, 08:27 PM
I might be missing something but umm why cant adams and rice start together.

they could, except teams usually put their speed rusher at the RE spot to rush they left side of the line. Then put their bigger (and better run stopper) DE on the right side. It could potentially be a tremendous pass rush, but run stopping could suffer (i.e. the Colts).

on another note, I think Spires is a solid DE.

etk
04-29-2007, 08:27 PM
I might be missing something but umm why cant adams and rice start together.

You are missing something.....teams will run right down our throats.

Tampa 2 4 life
04-29-2007, 08:29 PM
Watching the Gruden Post-Draft Conference, Tanard Jackson will play Safety.

Anybody want me to make a list of key things?

-black
04-29-2007, 08:40 PM
since the draft is a 365 thing for me

guys I think we will look at next year (and posisions) could potentially be

UT-Demario Pressley (my personal fav DT in next yeasrs draft)
Glen Dorsey
Andre Fluellen


or a top WR like

DeSean, Sweed, Bennett, or whoever has a breakout year

I could also see us going DE again if we lose Spires or Rice in FA.

I'd hope we would want to draft Kenny Phillips but with Sabby and Tanard I dont see that as possible (plus we probrably wont be in position to draft him)

if Petitgough gets injured again or doesnt pan out then a Top OT like Long or Baker could be a spot we look at

but my FAV player in the draft, and one we would look at if Simms proves he is not the long term solution is Brian Brohm. I have been high on him since he was a freshman and I truly believe he will be an incredible QB (more so than plenty of posters on here). I would LOVE to have him more than any QB in the 07 draft

but hey, its a year away

TwOne
04-29-2007, 08:41 PM
I'm gonna make a wild prediction:

Gaines Adams will beat out Rice for the starting DE job. Just a gut feeling.You also think Black was drafted to replace Ruud.

etk
04-29-2007, 08:45 PM
It's hard to judge the 08 draft right now because the mid-1st rounders haven't distinguished themselves from the pack yet. Of the elite prospects, I can see us drafting Calais Campbell, DeSean Jackson or Brian Brohm. Obviously we'll have to be in a high position to get Brohm, but needing a QB coincides with a high draft pick, so if Simms doesn't pan out we should be able to get him. Campbell would be the perfect compliment to Adams and that would easily be the best DE combo in the league for years. Jackson would finally return a kick for a TD! w00t!

TwOne
04-29-2007, 08:50 PM
- Black was NOT drafted to replace Ruud, but possibly Brook's replacement.

- Tanard Jackson will play Safety, most likely Free Safety

- Stop hating the Sears pick, he was the best guard available, Buenning to center is a great move. Petigout - Sears - Buenning - Joseph - Trueblood is a SICK OL.

- The defensive line will most likely end up being Rice - Hovan - Carter - Adams

Tampa 2 4 life
04-29-2007, 08:53 PM
Gruden says both Linebackers have the ability to eventually start.
I really don't care where at this point.

Tampa 2 4 life
04-29-2007, 08:54 PM
Jackson would finally return a kick for a TD! w00t!

I remember when Karl "The Truth" Williams almost returned it but he tripped at the 5 yard line.

etk
04-29-2007, 08:54 PM
1) We will give up 200 yds/g on the ground if we start your predicted DLine.

2) Sears was not the best G available. Blalock is bigger, smarter and quicker. He's downright nasty in his nature and finishes his blocks. He's a perfect fit in our system and will be a Pro Bowl fixture playing against us twice a year for Atlanta, while we're stuck with our above-average disappointment.

-black
04-29-2007, 08:56 PM
It's hard to judge the 08 draft right now because the mid-1st rounders haven't distinguished themselves from the pack yet. Of the elite prospects, I can see us drafting Calais Campbell, DeSean Jackson or Brian Brohm. Obviously we'll have to be in a high position to get Brohm, but needing a QB coincides with a high draft pick, so if Simms doesn't pan out we should be able to get him. Campbell would be the perfect compliment to Adams and that would easily be the best DE combo in the league for years. Jackson would finally return a kick for a TD! w00t!

I honestly think Campbell will be a top 5 pick, and possible number 1 overall. Even while its a year away, I have all but crossed him off my list of potentials lol. I agree though, those two together would be NASTY, DISGUTING, SICK, and any other word that makes you vomit.

- Stop hating the Sears pick, he was the best guard available, Buenning to center is a great move. Petigout - Sears - Buenning - Joseph - Trueblood is a SICK OL.

why coudnt we just take the best center in the draft and leave Buenning where he was drafted to play? Then we could have good competition with Anthony Davis and Buenning. It was not the best choice we could have made

TwOne
04-29-2007, 08:59 PM
It's hard to judge the 08 draft right now because the mid-1st rounders haven't distinguished themselves from the pack yet. Of the elite prospects, I can see us drafting Calais Campbell, DeSean Jackson or Brian Brohm. Obviously we'll have to be in a high position to get Brohm, but needing a QB coincides with a high draft pick, so if Simms doesn't pan out we should be able to get him. Campbell would be the perfect compliment to Adams and that would easily be the best DE combo in the league for years. Jackson would finally return a kick for a TD! w00t!if we draft a DL it wont be a DE it will be a DT.
Glenn Dorsey - DT - Louisiana State

-black
04-29-2007, 08:59 PM
I remember when Karl "The Truth" Williams almost returned it but he tripped at the 5 yard line.

wasnt that Aaron Stecker?

etk
04-29-2007, 09:00 PM
why coudnt we just take the best center in the draft and leave Buenning where he was drafted to play? Then we could have good competition with Anthony Davis and Buenning. It was not the best choice we could have made

It wasn't in the realm of the best choices we could have made. Kalil, Blalock, Jarrett, Weddle, even Chris Houston.

Tampa 2 4 life
04-29-2007, 09:01 PM
why coudnt we just take the best center in the draft and leave Buenning where he was drafted to play? Then we could have good competition with Anthony Davis and Buenning. It was not the best choice we could have made

Maybe we've seen that Buenning is a better player at Center than Kalil? Nobody knows.

Tampa 2 4 life
04-29-2007, 09:02 PM
wasnt that Aaron Stecker?

Maybe, but I think it was before Stecker was drafted.

etk
04-29-2007, 09:04 PM
if we draft a DL it wont be a DE it will be a DT.
Glenn Dorsey - DT - Louisiana State

I disagree. Greg Spires is almost 34, slow and needs replacing. Wyms is only 28 I believe and we just drafted a potential starter at that position. Just because we drafted Adams doesn't mean we don't need another DE next year. There are 2 DE positions....

-black
04-29-2007, 09:05 PM
ehh, I guess its no dwelling on spilt milk. Just time for me to stop with the what ifs and accept this class. Im optimistic that Sears, Buenning, and Joseph could possibly be a very good interrior.

-black
04-29-2007, 09:11 PM
Maybe, but I think it was before Stecker was drafted.

well, Stecker has the longest return in Buc history (I remember dat game like it was yesterday, we humiliated the Saints). I dont seem to remember Karl getting to the 5 on a kick return, but I do recall him taking a few punts to the house

Caddy
04-29-2007, 10:30 PM
I'm gonna make a wild prediction:

Gaines Adams will beat out Rice for the starting DE job. Just a gut feeling.

Whatever you are taking, I want some.

Caddy
04-30-2007, 06:10 AM
- The defensive line will most likely end up being Rice - Hovan - Carter - Adams

That is not going to happen, except on passing downs.

Merlin
04-30-2007, 07:42 AM
I'm coming in late here gent's but I'm sorry to dissapoint you all, I really like our draft!

CJ - trade up..blah, blah, blah, does anyone know what Detroit were asking for.....if at all?
Millen stated that (after) they had picked CJ and the book was closed, their wouldn't be any moves,....on top of that, if they had been willing to trade, we could have thrown away all our point charts, just like Cleveland had to do when they picked-up Quinn.

DE was a need, and a speed rusher was a priority, IMO, we got the best one available, does he need some work on his run game....YES!......but you can't coach athletic ability, unlike technique.

He's a Buc fan and a character athelete, give him time with our coaches, and he'll be a perfect fit for our system. http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/10155376

Aaron Sears was a surprise to me as well, but the more I've thought about it, the more I like it.
Gruden and Allen are building a young, physical, O-line, and Sears (IMO) was the best available, a Team Captain and very versitle All-American and Jacobs Award winner, (given to the best blocker in the Southeastern Conference) he's also exhibited great durability, missing only two games due to injury since his freshman year, in my mind the only thing he needs to work on is his upper body strength, and I'm sure he'll get the chance at "the Palace".

I love Sabby and have been in his corner for some time, he's tall, strong, and runs a 4.43 40, a ridiculously fast 40 time for a safety, he's always around the ball and makes big plays when his defense needs it most, he has very good hands, finishing with 15 career interceptions, great in coverage, and good in run support, he's very durable, playing in all of his 30 games at Oregon St, and has even seen ltd time at CB, yeh he's not perfect, and he needs some work, but he's another character athelete, who likes to fly around and make plays, whether it's making int's or smacking players in the mouth.

I know Gruden has said Quincy Black will play out-side, but his skills and experience tells me we could also see him in the middle, a 240lb athelete, who can fly from sideline to sideline, and who rarly misses a tackle, he just needs more experience outside his "Lobo Position", though it should help him in our Tampa 2. (in the middle anyway?)

Tanard Jackson was/is a great pick-up, likes to hit and will be better suited at his new S position, shows good athleticism, and doesn't shy away from contact, tackles well, and is a good blitzer.

As for our other picks theirs not much more to add which hasn't already been said, though I find Kenneth Darby intriguing.

Darby took over the tailback chores in 2005. He was named to the coaches' All-Southeastern Conference team, as he ranked second in the SEC with an average of 103.5 rushing yards per game. He led the Tide with 1,242 yards and three touchdowns on 239 attempts (5.2 avg), was third on the team with 29 catches for 132 yards (4.6 avg) and recorded one solo tackle.

A knee bruise suffered in August camp combined with his father's illness cost Darby considerable practice time prior to the 2006 season, but he went on to start every game. He led the team in rushing for the third year in a row with 835 yards on 210 carries (4.0 avg), though he did not score a rushing touchdown. He added 130 yards and one score on 23 catches (5.7 avg) and recovered two fumbles.

In 47 games at Alabama, Darby started 31 contests. He ranks third in school history with 3,324 yards on 702 carries (4.7 avg) and 11 touchdowns. He also made 70 catches for 340 yards (4.9 avg) and a pair of scores, adding four solo tackles with two fumble recoveries.

simms2clayton
04-30-2007, 09:40 AM
First of all I think Aaron Sears might have been the best pick of this entire draft.

Buenning's health is uncertain, the scouts obviously saw no center they really really liked so they want to move Buenning to center and find a LG to replace him.

I mean look at our past 2 drafts. We have found a lot of quality players thanks to our scouts, so if you are going to knock the same scouts we have now I say you have no idea what you are talking about.

Sears is going to be a great left guard. He is versatile. He can play right guard if Davin gets hurt. He can play right tackle if Trueblood gets hurt.

I see our OL on the roster breaking down like this:

LT: Petigout, Davis
LG: Davis, Sears (develops until ready)
C: Buenning, Wade
RG: Joseph, Sears
RT: Trueblood, Davis/Denman?

That might end up being the best OL in the NFC South very quickly.

-black
04-30-2007, 11:52 AM
First of all I think Aaron Sears might have been the best pick of this entire draft.

Buenning's health is uncertain, the scouts obviously saw no center they really really liked so they want to move Buenning to center and find a LG to replace him.

I mean look at our past 2 drafts. We have found a lot of quality players thanks to our scouts, so if you are going to knock the same scouts we have now I say you have no idea what you are talking about.
Sears is going to be a great left guard. He is versatile. He can play right guard if Davin gets hurt. He can play right tackle if Trueblood gets hurt.

I see our OL on the roster breaking down like this:

LT: Petigout, Davis
LG: Davis, Sears (develops until ready)
C: Buenning, Wade
RG: Joseph, Sears
RT: Trueblood, Davis/Denman?

That might end up being the best OL in the NFC South very quickly.

and how do your figure this? we have one of the worse turnover rates of draft picks in the league......Most of the guys we pick in rounds 3-7 dont even make the team, let alone contribute. Our scouting past the 3rd round (and scouting in rounds 1 and 2 doesnt mean anything, your average fan can make good 1st and 2nd round picks) has been very suspect while other teams have found gems in rounds 4-7. Just because the front offense made decisions does not mean we should "trust" that they are the best possible picks that could have been made.

the st. pete times just had an article last week about the Bucs past drafts and how many of the player picked never even really contributed (Marquise Cooper 3rd round pick, Marquise Walker 3rd round, ect) before getting cut/traded. Yet other teams have found some real gamers, and even a few Pro Bowlers outside of the top few picks

StaticGator
04-30-2007, 12:27 PM
and how do your figure this? we have one of the worse turnover rates of draft picks in the league......Most of the guys we pick in rounds 3-7 dont even make the team, let alone contribute. Our scouting past the 3rd round (and scouting in rounds 1 and 2 doesnt mean anything, your average fan can make good 1st and 2nd round picks) has been very suspect while other teams have found gems in rounds 4-7. Just because the front offense made decisions does not mean we should "trust" that they are the best possible picks that could have been made.

the st. pete times just had an article last week about the Bucs past drafts and how many of the player picked never even really contributed (Marquise Cooper 3rd round pick, Marquise Walker 3rd round, ect) before getting cut/traded. Yet other teams have found some real gamers, and even a few Pro Bowlers outside of the top few picks

Agree completely. The only non-1st round picks I've been remotely impressed with are Alex Smith and Dan Buenning. Even with the 1st round picks we've seen multiple players selected afterwards make the Pro Bowl.

Caddy
04-30-2007, 04:29 PM
and how do your figure this? we have one of the worse turnover rates of draft picks in the league......Most of the guys we pick in rounds 3-7 dont even make the team, let alone contribute. Our scouting past the 3rd round (and scouting in rounds 1 and 2 doesnt mean anything, your average fan can make good 1st and 2nd round picks) has been very suspect while other teams have found gems in rounds 4-7. Just because the front offense made decisions does not mean we should "trust" that they are the best possible picks that could have been made.

the st. pete times just had an article last week about the Bucs past drafts and how many of the player picked never even really contributed (Marquise Cooper 3rd round pick, Marquise Walker 3rd round, ect) before getting cut/traded. Yet other teams have found some real gamers, and even a few Pro Bowlers outside of the top few picks

2005: Paris Warren, Donte Nicholson, Alex Smith, Chris Colmer
2006: Maurice Stovall, Alan Zemaitas, Julian Jenkins, Bruce Gradkowski, Charles Bennett, (T.J. Williams IR)

That doesn't include the guys on the practice squad. Sure that list isn't filled with any gems yet, but they made the team and who knows what could happen down the line.

etk
04-30-2007, 05:37 PM
2005: Paris Warren, Donte Nicholson, Alex Smith, Chris Colmer
2006: Maurice Stovall, Alan Zemaitas, Julian Jenkins, Bruce Gradkowski, Charles Bennett, (T.J. Williams IR)

That doesn't include the guys on the practice squad. Sure that list isn't filled with any gems yet, but they made the team and who knows what could happen down the line.

I doubt Warren, Nicholson or Colmer make the team this year. Same thing with Charles Bennett and now TJ Williams.

Caddy
04-30-2007, 05:52 PM
I doubt Warren, Nicholson or Colmer make the team this year. Same thing with Charles Bennett and now TJ Williams.

I don't really disagree with you too much, I was just making the point that they made the team. I'm still optimistic about Colmer but with his medical condition I might be being slightly optimistic. I also think Paris Warren will make the team again as the 5th receiver. Who is going to beat him out? Chas Gessner or David Boston? I doubt it. I am also keen to see how TJ Williams performs and he has a legitimate chance to make it as a 3rd TE. Bennett and Nicholson are almost certainly gone, with the draft we just had they look like they could be destined for a year on the practice squad.

etk
04-30-2007, 05:56 PM
I think Boston will beat out Warren, but Warren will be on the practice squad at the very least.

-black
04-30-2007, 07:21 PM
my previous post still stands with 100% certainity. Marquise Cooper and Walker were both on the team for 2 years or so, and then got cut. I dont hardly recall any of them CONTRIBUTING...more like taking up roster space. I believe EVERY 3rd and 4th round pick you make should at least contribute or start.

lets take a look see at Gruden and his scouts success past round 2. I will bold the players no longer with the team or who havent contributed

2002 Draft
3 (21, 86) - Marquis Walker, Michigan
4 (21, 119) - Travis Stephens, Tennessee
5 (22, 157) - Jermaine Phillips, Georgia
6 (21, 193) - John Stamper, South Carolina
7 (22, 233) - Tim Wansley, Georgia
7 (40, 251) - Tracey Wistrom, Nebraska
7 (43, 254) - Aaron Lockett, Kansas State
7 (44, 255) - Zack Quaccia, Stanford

to be fair, we were handicapped with picks. Still got zero return out of our 2rd and 4th rounders (two very important picks)

2003
2 DE Dewayne White Louisville
3 QB Chris Simms Texas
4 T Lance Nimmo West Virginia
4 C Austin King Northwestern
5 G Sean Mahan Notre Dame
6 CB Torrie Cox Pittsburgh

two more OL 4th rounders that did nothing. Could have possibly already found our future (or at least good depth) at C and T.

2004

(15) - Michael Clayton, WR LSU
3 (79) - Marquis Cooper, ILB Washington
4 (111) - Will Allen, S Ohio State
5 (146) - Jeb Terry, G North Carolina
6 (181) - Nate Lawrie, TE Yale
7 (206) - Mark Jones, WR Tennessee
7 (228) - Casey Cramer, FB Dartmouth
7 (252) - Lenny Williams, CB Southern


another 3rd round 1st day pick wasted for someone who got cut like the year following. Bad use of scouting


2005
1 (5) Carnell Williams, RB Auburn
2 (36) Barrett Ruud, ILB Nebraska
3 (71) Alex Smith, TE Stanford
3 (91) Chris Colmer, OT North Carolina State
4 (107) Dan Buenning, OG Wisconsin
5 (141) Donte Nicholson, SS Oklahoma
5 (155) Larry Brackins, WR Pearl River CC
6 (178) Anthony Bryant, DT Alabama
7 (221) Rick Razzano, RB Mississippi
7 (225) Paris Warren, WR Utah
7 (231) Harnza Abdullah, FS Washington State
7 (253) J.R. Russell, WR Louisville

anyone who says the Bucs have made great use of their picks through scouting in rounds 3-7 is kidding themselves.

StaticGator
04-30-2007, 08:45 PM
I agree. Here's some of the other players available when those picks were made.

2002
Round 3: Seth McKinney, Brian Westbrook, Chris Hope, Alex Brown, Randy McMichael
Round 4: Jarvis Green, Dookie Davenport, Andra Davis, Scott Fujita, Rocky Bernard, Aaron Kampman
Round 5: Verron Hayes, Marquand Manuel, Jeb Putzier

2003
Round 2: Lance Briggs, Vince Manuwai, Nate Burleson, Kevin Curtis, Derrick Dockery, (I can't complain too bad about White but here's who else was there)
Round 3: Todd Johnson, Domanick Davis-Williams, Ian Scott, Jeremi Johnson, Asante Samuel, Justin Griffith, Brandon Lloyd
Round 4: LaBrandon Toefield, Ovie Mughelli, Robert Mathis, Jordan Black, Dave Diehl, Dan Koppen, Hunter Hillenmeyer, Doug Gabriel
Round 5: Tony Pashos, Arnaz Battle, Cato June

2004
Round 1: Shawn Andrews, DJ Williams, Will Smith, Vince Wilfork, Steven Jackson, Igor Olshansky, Bob Sanders, Devery Henderson, Michael Boulware, Sean Jones, Nick Hardwick, Bernard Berrian (extended due to no round 2 pick)
Round 3: Chris Cooley, Sean Locklear, Matt Schaub, Shaun Phillips, Demorrio Williams, Jerricho Cotchery, Nathan Vasher
Round 4. Ernest Wilford, Jason David, Jared Allen, Gibril Wilson
Round 5: Michael Turner

2005
Round 1: DeMarcus Ware, Shawne Merriman, Jamaal Brown
Round 2: Lofa Tatupu, Khalif Barnes, Darrent Williams, Frank Gore, Channing Crowder
Round 3A: Alex Smith was the best pick IMO
Round 3B: Nick Kaczur, Sean Considine
Round 4: Jason Brown is Buenning's only competition

You non-believers can say what you will about hindsight and the like, but notice how many of these players have played in Super Bowls or are on teams who continually make the playoffs. It's not a coicidence.

etk
04-30-2007, 09:09 PM
Focus on the picks we made, not the picks we didn't make. 250 teams or so passed up Marques Colston, so what? Tom Brady was overlooked by 31 teams. It happens. Many of those players were probably crossed off our draft boards for various reasons so cool it. I know in the McKay regime we missed a lot of picks because we always went with character over anything else.

I can't believe you actually wasted your time formulating that list. You can't just look at names and say "we didn't draft them", because we don't know the circumstances.

While I agree that we have done a poor job of drafting and scouting, no team makes perfect picks and great players are passed up every year. 5 years we will be looking back and thinking "Man we should've taken Kalil or Blalock over Sears", but in my eyes it's the picks you make and not those you fail to make that hurt you.

Caddy
04-30-2007, 10:50 PM
I think Boston will beat out Warren, but Warren will be on the practice squad at the very least.

Warren beat him out last year, what makes you think Warren won't do it again? Boston is a has-been and is even lucky to still be in the NFL.

StaticGator
05-01-2007, 06:05 AM
Focus on the picks we made, not the picks we didn't make.

Unfortunately the picks we made are on the bench or bagging groceries. The picks the Bears and Colts made were halping them make it to the Super Bowl. This is the difference between winning and losing. A big reason the Bucs used to be a playoff team was the ability to find the Dwight Smith, Dexter Jackson, Al Singleton type players after the first two rounds.

Caddy
05-01-2007, 07:29 AM
Unfortunately the picks we made are on the bench or bagging groceries. The picks the Bears and Colts made were halping them make it to the Super Bowl. This is the difference between winning and losing. A big reason the Bucs used to be a playoff team was the ability to find the Dwight Smith, Dexter Jackson, Al Singleton type players after the first two rounds.

The #1 overall pick certainly helped the Colts get Peyton Manning. Without him they have no superbowl.

Merlin
05-01-2007, 07:44 AM
Unfortunately the picks we made are on the bench or bagging groceries. The picks the Bears and Colts made were halping them make it to the Super Bowl. This is the difference between winning and losing. A big reason the Bucs used to be a playoff team was the ability to find the Dwight Smith, Dexter Jackson, Al Singleton type players after the first two rounds.OK, lets say for arguements sake, that our scouts are poor, what can the franchise do about it?

Who's on our scout team?

Have we made any changes to our staff over the years?

etk
05-01-2007, 07:44 AM
Warren beat him out last year, what makes you think Warren won't do it again? Boston is a has-been and is even lucky to still be in the NFL.

David Boston has a zillion times more talent than Warren and this year he will recognize it.

etk
05-01-2007, 07:45 AM
That sig is awesome Merlin ;)

Merlin
05-01-2007, 08:02 AM
That sig is awesome Merlin ;)

Cheers, gosh darn it.....lols

Caddy
05-01-2007, 08:27 AM
David Boston has a zillion times more talent than Warren and this year he will recognize it.

Willing to bet on it?

StaticGator
05-01-2007, 08:49 AM
OK, lets say for arguements sake, that our scouts are poor, what can the franchise do about it?

Who's on our scout team?

Have we made any changes to our staff over the years?

I'm not privy to that kind of information but obviously people have not been getting the job done in quite a while.

etk
05-01-2007, 10:27 AM
Willing to bet on it?

No, it's just my intuition. Gruden likes to take chances on veterans over young guys anyway.

Caddy
05-01-2007, 04:09 PM
No, it's just my intuition. Gruden likes to take chances on veterans over young guys anyway.

So basically, you are a cat.

etk
05-01-2007, 10:07 PM
So basically, you are a cat.

What, I don't understand that language.

Caddy
05-01-2007, 10:20 PM
What, I don't understand that language.

Basically just a P***Y. Didn't want to use expletives so I changed the language a little.

etk
05-01-2007, 10:21 PM
Basically just a P***Y. Didn't want to use expletives so I changed the language a little.

I'm fine with having one poster on these boards representing my knowledge, there's no need to risk humiliation for another.

Caddy
05-01-2007, 10:25 PM
I'm fine with having one poster on these boards representing my knowledge, there's no need to risk humiliation for another.

I think you are the one afraid of the humiliation because I'm pretty sure you declined the bet.

etk
05-01-2007, 10:30 PM
I think you are the one afraid of the humiliation because I'm pretty sure you declined the bet.

I'm pretty sure that's what I just said.......

Caddy
05-01-2007, 10:35 PM
I'm pretty sure that's what I just said.......

Just wanted to clarify that. Maybe someone with some cajones wants to take me up on my bet.

etk
05-01-2007, 10:38 PM
Just wanted to clarify that. Maybe someone with some cajones wants to take me up on my bet.

Whoa, I was about to quote you with a witty comeback to your "know we all know who wears the pants around here" statement, but apparently it has been replaced with "cajones" in the middle of the quoting process.

Caddy
05-01-2007, 10:39 PM
Whoa, I was about to quote you with a witty comeback to your "know we all know who wears the pants around here" statement, but apparently it has been replaced with "cajones" in the middle of the quoting process.

Both reiterate the same point.

Caddy
05-01-2007, 10:43 PM
Tisk Tisk Tisk. Criticising me for editing when you just edited a post yourself..

etk
05-01-2007, 10:44 PM
Both reiterate the same point.

No, because the second version includes a challenge.

etk
05-01-2007, 10:44 PM
Tisk Tisk Tisk. Criticising me for editing when you just edited a post yourself..

Are you *gasp* forum stalking me ;)

Caddy
05-01-2007, 10:45 PM
No, because the second version includes a challenge.

I was referring to you the fact that you are too scared to go through with the bet.

etk
05-01-2007, 10:49 PM
I was referring to you the fact that you are too scared to go through with the bet.

I was never that confident in the first place. This all started because I was trying to prove a point about how awful Jon Gruden is at the draft process and I used Warren as an example by saying he won't make the team this year. If I had to bet I'd go with him making the roster over Boston, but it's definitely a battle that's worth some attention (Boston/Warren/Gessner-bleh).

Caddy
05-01-2007, 10:50 PM
I'm just stirring the pot dude, I'm at school and bored as hell so I need something to keep me occupied. :D

etk
05-01-2007, 10:52 PM
I'm just stirring the pot dude, I'm at school and bored as hell so I need something to keep me occupied. :D

etk's interpretation: I'm spamming this thread to boost up my post count :D


It seems like I stir pots every time I post in this team board, so no worries ;)

Caddy
05-02-2007, 01:08 AM
etk's interpretation: I'm spamming this thread to boost up my post count :D


It seems like I stir pots every time I post in this team board, so no worries ;)

It wouldn't be the Buc's Team Forum without a little bit of pot stirring. You have to keep things interesting around here, especially in the off-season.

The minute the season starts and we lose a few games here or there people like yojoebucsfan will start spamming the boards with "Fire Gruden" threads etc.

StaticGator
05-02-2007, 08:52 AM
I was never that confident in the first place. This all started because I was trying to prove a point about how awful Jon Gruden is at the draft process and I used Warren as an example by saying he won't make the team this year. If I had to bet I'd go with him making the roster over Boston, but it's definitely a battle that's worth some attention (Boston/Warren/Gessner-bleh).

There's no point arguing over 7th rounders. Very few make any teams. Marquis Cooper and Chris Colmer are much easier targets.

Caddy
05-02-2007, 04:16 PM
There's no point arguing over 7th rounders. Very few make any teams. Marquis Cooper and Chris Colmer are much easier targets.

Why is there no point?

StaticGator
05-02-2007, 08:41 PM
Why is there no point?

Go look at who else was available when Warren was picked and tell us who many good players there were. On the other hand with the Marquis Cooper pick the Bucs missed out on Chris Cooley, Sean Locklear, Matt Schaub, Sean Phillips, Demorrio Williams, Jerricho Cotchery, and Nathan Vasher. With the Chris Colmer pick the Bucs missed out on Nick Kaczur, Marion Barber, Jason Brown, Todd Herremans, Darren Sproles, and Chris Canty.

etk
05-02-2007, 09:11 PM
I'm not focusing on any individual pick, what's important is draft consistency. The only consistent among Gruden's drafts is Day 2 failures.

Caddy
05-02-2007, 10:20 PM
Go look at who else was available when Warren was picked and tell us who many good players there were. On the other hand with the Marquis Cooper pick the Bucs missed out on Chris Cooley, Sean Locklear, Matt Schaub, Sean Phillips, Demorrio Williams, Jerricho Cotchery, and Nathan Vasher. With the Chris Colmer pick the Bucs missed out on Nick Kaczur, Marion Barber, Jason Brown, Todd Herremans, Darren Sproles, and Chris Canty.

You have really got to stop living in the past and focus on the present. Be optimistic about how the players we have drafted will go in the future. Take Colmer for instance, how would we know what the players selected after him would turn out? The answer is that we didn't.

I really see no point in supporting a team if you are going continuously point out the mistakes that have been made instead of focusing on the positives and the future. I for one like to believe the Buccaneers are headed in the right direction.

StaticGator
05-03-2007, 07:37 AM
You have really got to stop living in the past and focus on the present. Be optimistic about how the players we have drafted will go in the future. Take Colmer for instance, how would we know what the players selected after him would turn out? The answer is that we didn't.

I really see no point in supporting a team if you are going continuously point out the mistakes that have been made instead of focusing on the positives and the future. I for one like to believe the Buccaneers are headed in the right direction.

The present is 4-12, needing a near complete overhaul and not much if any elite talent to replace the previously elite players. As for seeing into the future, how did Bill Polian know to pass on Ricky Williams and select Edgerrin James? I don't know but it was the right decision and the Colts never looked back. How do professional poker players know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em? I don't know but those are the kinds of guys you want running your team. And having been born at Bayfront Medical Center, I'm married to the Bucs.

Tampa 2 4 life
05-03-2007, 01:08 PM
As for seeing into the future, how did Bill Polian know to pass on Ricky Williams and select Edgerrin James? I don't know but it was the right decision and the Colts never looked back.

Except, Ricky was one of the most dominant runners in the years he was playing and he outperformed Edgerrin IMO.

-black
05-03-2007, 01:22 PM
The Colts picked Edge because he fit their offense more than Ricky. He blocked better and caught the ball out of the backfield more efficiently

bullg8rdaddy
11-19-2010, 07:37 AM
I'm not a big fan of this draft at all, and I really doubt Gruden's ability to draft and evaluate talent.

1. Gaines Adams: If the rumours were true that we could've traded both 2nd and this pick for CJ, we should've done that. I'd rather Okoye here, he's 4 full years younger than Adams and we could've picked several solid DEs later on. On the other hand, we didn't get a DT til the 5th because of the lack of talent.
B+

2a. Arron Sears: I won't accept any justification for this pick. If we want an interior lineman we could've draft Blalock or Kalil. Lots of other great options here as well, but we take an oversized G with poor feet. He can't play T either because of his lack of length and lack of quickness, once again.
F

2b. Sabby Piscitelli: Right idea with the position, but wrong player. He reminds me too much of Phillips and isn't an upgrade over him IMO. He looks like a career special teamer because of his tackling inconsistencies and poor field awareness. Doesn't move as well as numbers indicate.
C

Note: It's even more aggravating that we didn't trade up for CJ because of the picks we used in his place....

3. Quincy Black: Pretty good player and a good fit, but OLB isn't an immediate need. We could've added instant-impact WRs here. If we took Okoye we could've stolen Charles Johnson here....
B-

4. Tanard Jackson: Best pick of our draft and best value. He's versatile and I love his playmaking abilities, run support and closing speed.
A+

5. Greg Peterson: Undervalued UT prospect. I like this pick because he needs time to develop so obviously we are content with a Wyms/Carter rotation for now. He has a big frame and good quickness with untapped potential.
A-

6. Adam Hayward: Don't know much about this guy but we passed up some good MLBs to take him (Siler, Harris, Bishop)
C+

7. Chris Denman, Marcus Hamilton, Kenneth Darby: Denman and Hamilton provide good depth. Darby has little chance to make an impact whereas a guy like Darius Walker could be an effective weapon in the passing game.
B

Overall:
Some good picks and some terrible ones. I'm very bitter as a whole because of the path we took, missing out on some great value and steals because of previous reaches. The players we took with make very little impact as rookies and we need to win now. This draft makes me think our management is rebuilding, or they just don't know how to manipulate the draft. Our division rivals landed plenty of steals like Jarrett, Johnson, Blalock, Houston, Kalil etc.
C

Damn, could etk be anymore spot on?

For the record, Patrick Willis would've been nice.

etk
11-19-2010, 09:25 AM
Sears was MUCH better than I expected, unfortunately he had those post-concussion problems and is now out of the league.

A day doesn't go by without me thinking about how ******** Gruden was for not trading up for CJ/Megatron. We got a backup S out of the deal. /facepalm