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Non_Sequitur
05-01-2007, 02:14 AM
http://espn-mp3-od.andomedia.com/espnpod2/espnradio/insider/herd/herd_04302007_1.mp3

Not my words. Listen to the link (starts off with Raiders talk, then goes to the Pats).

TheChampIsHere
05-01-2007, 03:48 AM
No I dont think the Patriots are getting desperate. I think its more of them having supreme confidence in themselves. Guys like Randy Moss, Stallworth, Merriweather, Kelley Washington...other guys might have stayed away from them but the Pats have confidence that anyone they bring into their locker room will get their head straight. And so far, the Pats have been right, but this will really be putting their veteran leadership and coaches to the test to see if they can get these guys to work hard, stay out of trouble and buy into the whole philosophy.

Another element of it is that the Patriots over the last few years had been pretty content with their roster. They didnt make big signings and they let vets walk when they asked for paydays. During the 06 season, the Pats were good but not dominant and they failed to make the superbowl b/c of a 2nd half breakdown. I think the feeling after that season in the Patriot front office was it was time to reload in talent. After pinching pennies the past couple years they had the cap room to make a splash in FA so they did that to give Bellichick some major talent to work with. In Randy Moss, they saw the opportunity to bring in a great talent for a cheap price and see if Bellichik can get him turned around, he could turn out to be a HOFer still in his prime. He restructured and he only cost them a 4th rounder so I dont see the harm.

Clearly, the Patriots are thinking superbowl this year and with these moves they should be the favorite. They still have a lot of continuity on the roster so its not as if this is like a redskin team with a whole lot of talented players but not much chemistry. I would describe the Patriots as aggresive, but not desperate because all the moves they made were smart IMO and well thought out. Making Adam Archuleta one of the highest paid safeties in the league...that is a desperate move, giving up what NY did for Eli a few years back was a desperate move. The Pats are aggressively improving their team without overpaying. Are they risking their team chemistry with these moves? Yes, and that is a cause for concern, but its hard to believe that Randy Moss could destroy the chemistry of a team with 3 rings that includes leaders like Brady, Seymour, Bruschi, Harrison, etc. Moss will buy into their philosophy or he will find himself sitting on the bench and gone the next offseason b/c Bellichick is not going to put up with any nonsense from him, b/c he doesnt need Randy to win. Also, that defense was slipping a little bit last year but by adding Thomas and Merriweather, they should be much better. Merriweather is a playmaker in coverage which is just what this team needs and Thomas should improve their pass-rush, which needs help but he is so versatile that he will also help them a lot in coverage.

This is all coming from a bitter raider fan who still roots hard against the Patriots. But I can recognize greatness when it is there and what the Patriots have been doing is great and the way the switched gears this offseason was really quite masterful IMO. And for those who feel differently, we all owe the Patriots the benefit of the doubt b/c theyve made so many other questionable moves that turned out great.

yourfavestoner
05-01-2007, 04:46 AM
Also, Randy was willing to restructure his contract in the Patriots favor. He knows that he has to behave because they hold all of the leverage.

Jay
05-01-2007, 06:16 AM
Desperate??? Why would the Patriots be DESPERATE???? They've won three Super Bowls this decade. I love, love, ABSOLUTELY LOVE the way you've gone around this board the last two days trying to say whatever you can to make you feel better about yourself and the Jets. Seriously:

Jets are sooo much better than the Pats:

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8552&page=2

Better trade because you wanted everyone to make you feel better about Jones:

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8590

And because the fact that the Pats are stack has you feeling insecure, the better draft, Pats or Jets? :

http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8589

I especially love the way you skewed that one by including guys not even on the team anymore for the Jets, but not including Wes Welker for the Pats or trading Brandon Gorin for a 6th, or hell, even losing a 5th for Doug Gabriel. Thought you'd be all over that. Seriously. Cut the crap. We get it. You have a case of envy and jealousy and you're probably feeling like this is going to be a wasted year. Get over it. It's so old and drawn out.

ElectricEye
05-01-2007, 06:48 AM
Alright, I won't get into the lolinternetswar(as much as I want to) but I will say this; every team is desperate. Every team will do whatever they think gives them the best shot at winning. And if they don't, they really aren't doing their jobs.

myinnerself
05-01-2007, 11:01 AM
I think they know Brady only has so many years left, that's all I'm gonna say. They are abandoning their old plan of being extremely careful to leave cap space and building in the draft and staying away from free agency for the most part.

High Roller
05-01-2007, 11:19 AM
I think they know Brady only has so many years left, that's all I'm gonna say. They are abandoning their old plan of being extremely careful to leave cap space and building in the draft and staying away from free agency for the most part.

I agree. I think Belicheck leaves when Brady does and they want to get a few more under their belt. Belicheck was so pissed after losing last year and he definately wants some redemption.

DeathbyStat
05-01-2007, 11:25 AM
Just hand these guys the Lombardi trophy i would be shocked if they didn t at least make it to the Afc championship

Number 10
05-01-2007, 11:30 AM
I've learned not to criticize the Pats because I have too many times before and they made me eat my words.

zoinks
05-01-2007, 11:37 AM
I've actually thought about this myself.

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that Belichick is gearing up for one last big run.....a final hurrah before riding off into the sunset.

Look at what the guy's accomplished....he won three Super Bowls in four years, and is already regarded as one of the truly elite coaches in the history of the game....arguably the best ever. The man is a living legend, and has accomplished far more in just a few years than most coaches accomplish in a lifetime.

Simply put, there's nothing left to prove....his place in football legend is set. There's no way he can improve....the only thing left is the inevitable decline, as Landry and Noll did toward the end of their careers.

And quite honestly, I'm not sure Belichick even enjoys it anymore. He sure doesn't look like he does. The only reason he's still doing it is because....that's what he does.

On Sirius radio, host Pat Kirwan related an anecdote: Kirwan was standing on the sideline in the final moments of an NFL coach's first Super Bowl victory. As Kirwan turned to offer his congratulations, the coach looked at him and said in all seriousness, "You know, Pat...this is it. This is what it's all about. The dream. And if this is what it is....then I'm not sure it's worth it." Kirwan refused to name the coach, but I have it pegged as either Parcells or Belichick....possibly Mike Holmgren. But my money's on Belichick.

Anyway...to bring my rant back on topic.....the Patriots know that all good things come to an end. Right now, they're stacking the deck....first, to give Belichick his grand sendoff, and to have a loaded roster for the next coach who comes in.

Number 10
05-01-2007, 11:41 AM
I've actually thought about this myself.

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that Belichick is gearing up for one last big run.....a final hurrah before riding off into the sunset.

Look at what the guy's accomplished....he won three Super Bowls in four years, and is already regarded as one of the truly elite coaches in the history of the game....arguably the best ever. The man is a living legend, and has accomplished far more in just a few years than most coaches accomplish in a lifetime.

Simply put, there's nothing left to prove....his place in football legend is set. There's no way he can improve....the only thing left is the inevitable decline, as Landry and Noll did toward the end of their careers.

And quite honestly, I'm not sure Belichick even enjoys it anymore. He sure doesn't look like he does. The only reason he's still doing it is because....that's what he does.

On Sirius radio, host Pat Kirwan related an anecdote: Kirwan was standing on the sideline in the final moments of an NFL coach's first Super Bowl victory. As Kirwan turned to offer his congratulations, the coach looked at him and said in all seriousness, "You know, Pat...this is it. This is what it's all about. The dream. And if this is what it is....then I'm not sure it's worth it." Kirwan refused to name the coach, but I have it pegged as either Parcells or Belichick....possibly Mike Holmgren. But my money's on Belichick.

Anyway...to bring my rant back on topic.....the Patriots know that all good things come to an end. Right now, they're stacking the deck....first, to give Belichick his grand sendoff, and to have a loaded roster for the next coach who comes in.

Or he can come back home and coach the Giants!!

zoinks
05-01-2007, 11:42 AM
Or he can come back home and coach the Giants!!

Like I said.....the inevitable decline.


-rep ;)

bigbluedefense
05-01-2007, 11:43 AM
Or he can come back home and coach the Giants!!

I think its a legit possibility for the reasons he just posted. I was thinking the same exact thing.

All these moves he's made are very polarizing compared to his blueprint to success. It seems like he wants one final hurrah before he leaves.

The BP 3-4 back in NY baby! I would do backflips for 3 days straight if that ever happened.

myinnerself
05-01-2007, 11:48 AM
I see a last hurrah too, because this team has been extremely conscious of being cap-smart and building to maintain success over a long period of time, but not even remotely over spending in FA, and choosing to build in the draft. This is the exact opposite, so who knows.

eacantdraft
05-01-2007, 11:50 AM
Or he can come back home and coach the Giants!!

Not going to happen. Heard the same thing about Scott Pioli and his "dream" job. Never happened and I told you it would never happened.

Matthew Jones
05-01-2007, 12:09 PM
I don't think the Patriots are desperate, they just want to do whatever it takes to win a Super Bowl before their window closes, like the Raiders' did a few years back. When all of their players start to get up in age, Tom Brady is 35 and whatnot, and people like Tedy Bruschi and Mike Vrabel have retired, then it's too late to win another Super Bowl with the current cast and then you need to rebuild. I would try and win as many Super Bowl as I can before my players are too old to.

DeathbyStat
05-01-2007, 12:10 PM
I've actually thought about this myself.

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that Belichick is gearing up for one last big run.....a final hurrah before riding off into the sunset.

Look at what the guy's accomplished....he won three Super Bowls in four years, and is already regarded as one of the truly elite coaches in the history of the game....arguably the best ever. The man is a living legend, and has accomplished far more in just a few years than most coaches accomplish in a lifetime.

Simply put, there's nothing left to prove....his place in football legend is set. There's no way he can improve....the only thing left is the inevitable decline, as Landry and Noll did toward the end of their careers.

And quite honestly, I'm not sure Belichick even enjoys it anymore. He sure doesn't look like he does. The only reason he's still doing it is because....that's what he does.

On Sirius radio, host Pat Kirwan related an anecdote: Kirwan was standing on the sideline in the final moments of an NFL coach's first Super Bowl victory. As Kirwan turned to offer his congratulations, the coach looked at him and said in all seriousness, "You know, Pat...this is it. This is what it's all about. The dream. And if this is what it is....then I'm not sure it's worth it." Kirwan refused to name the coach, but I have it pegged as either Parcells or Belichick....possibly Mike Holmgren. But my money's on Belichick.

Anyway...to bring my rant back on topic.....the Patriots know that all good things come to an end. Right now, they're stacking the deck....first, to give Belichick his grand sendoff, and to have a loaded roster for the next coach who comes in.

I think the coach Kirwan was talkin about was Bill Cowher

Non_Sequitur
05-01-2007, 01:26 PM
No I dont think the Patriots are getting desperate. I think its more of them having supreme confidence in themselves. Guys like Randy Moss, Stallworth, Merriweather, Kelley Washington...other guys might have stayed away from them but the Pats have confidence that anyone they bring into their locker room will get their head straight. And so far, the Pats have been right, but this will really be putting their veteran leadership and coaches to the test to see if they can get these guys to work hard, stay out of trouble and buy into the whole philosophy.

Another element of it is that the Patriots over the last few years had been pretty content with their roster. They didnt make big signings and they let vets walk when they asked for paydays. During the 06 season, the Pats were good but not dominant and they failed to make the superbowl b/c of a 2nd half breakdown. I think the feeling after that season in the Patriot front office was it was time to reload in talent. After pinching pennies the past couple years they had the cap room to make a splash in FA so they did that to give Bellichick some major talent to work with. In Randy Moss, they saw the opportunity to bring in a great talent for a cheap price and see if Bellichik can get him turned around, he could turn out to be a HOFer still in his prime. He restructured and he only cost them a 4th rounder so I dont see the harm.

Clearly, the Patriots are thinking superbowl this year and with these moves they should be the favorite. They still have a lot of continuity on the roster so its not as if this is like a redskin team with a whole lot of talented players but not much chemistry. I would describe the Patriots as aggresive, but not desperate because all the moves they made were smart IMO and well thought out. Making Adam Archuleta one of the highest paid safeties in the league...that is a desperate move, giving up what NY did for Eli a few years back was a desperate move. The Pats are aggressively improving their team without overpaying. Are they risking their team chemistry with these moves? Yes, and that is a cause for concern, but its hard to believe that Randy Moss could destroy the chemistry of a team with 3 rings that includes leaders like Brady, Seymour, Bruschi, Harrison, etc. Moss will buy into their philosophy or he will find himself sitting on the bench and gone the next offseason b/c Bellichick is not going to put up with any nonsense from him, b/c he doesnt need Randy to win. Also, that defense was slipping a little bit last year but by adding Thomas and Merriweather, they should be much better. Merriweather is a playmaker in coverage which is just what this team needs and Thomas should improve their pass-rush, which needs help but he is so versatile that he will also help them a lot in coverage.

This is all coming from a bitter raider fan who still roots hard against the Patriots. But I can recognize greatness when it is there and what the Patriots have been doing is great and the way the switched gears this offseason was really quite masterful IMO. And for those who feel differently, we all owe the Patriots the benefit of the doubt b/c theyve made so many other questionable moves that turned out great.

Great Response. + Rep.

I'm disappointed that no one else in the thread reponded to it.



On thing a friend (A Giants fan) said to me yesterday was "The Patriots are starting to feel like the Redskins." And while they aren't yet on that level, they are signing malcontents and risky players to good sized money. The Skins would have extended Moss, and the Pats shortened him, but the point still stands that they aren't the team everyone thinks of them as. No longer are they all about Character and good business moves. They are now like so many other teams, all about winning right away.

JK17
05-01-2007, 01:34 PM
Great Response. + Rep.

I'm disappointed that no one else in the thread reponded to it.



On thing a friend (A Giants fan) said to me yesterday was "The Patriots are starting to feel like the Redskins." And while they aren't yet on that level, they are signing malcontents and risky players to good sized money. The Skins would have extended Moss, and the Pats shortened him, but the point still stands that they aren't the team everyone thinks of them as. No longer are they all about Character and good business moves. They are now like so many other teams, all about winning right away.

Were you agreeing with that Giants fan, or pointing out what he said and taking an opposite view...

because if you were agreeing with it, I would have a problem with just about all of that quote.

Non_Sequitur
05-01-2007, 01:48 PM
Were you agreeing with that Giants fan, or pointing out what he said and taking an opposite view...

because if you were agreeing with it, I would have a problem with just about all of that quote.

I wasn't agreeing with him, just saying that he does have a point.

constant cough
05-01-2007, 01:49 PM
I think so. I don't see Stallworth and Moss working well together. When Stallworth was with the Saints let's just say he didn't seem like a locker room guy, and Moss is Moss. This is doomed to fail.

JK17
05-01-2007, 01:56 PM
I wasn't agreeing with him, just saying that he does have a point.

Okay, I just don't think there is much of a point there...maybe about them caring less about charater concerns, but that could also be based around some of the high character guys the Pats have...(there are some who I do feel have no character or class at all)...

But when it comes to just looking at a Super Bowl this year only, that goes against everything they have done for a while now. Not only that, but bringing in high profile guys does not mean that they are only looking at one year. The Patriots still have their eye on the future, they've just reloaded some talent. I think that's what Thechampishere was trying to say, and you quoted him on it. I think what he meant is that though they are looking at the Super Bowl this year they aren't blowing all their cap like other teams have done to do it. Moss restructured, and the management their is too good to blow it all on one year.

snobdmat
05-01-2007, 02:00 PM
I think so. I don't see Stallworth and Moss working well together. When Stallworth was with the Saints let's just say he didn't seem like a locker room guy, and Moss is Moss. This is doomed to fail.

i have to agree with that. both guys are going to want the ball and while brady is known to spread it around, is it going to be enough. can these guys let go of their egos and play for the TEAM? and what does this say to chad jackson who the pats moved up to take last year if im not mistaken

Jay
05-01-2007, 02:04 PM
I think so. I don't see Stallworth and Moss working well together. When Stallworth was with the Saints let's just say he didn't seem like a locker room guy, and Moss is Moss. This is doomed to fail.

This worries me the least. I don't think people outside of New England truly understand the atmosphere that has been created in the New England locker room. New guys either get with the program, or get gone.There is a system in place that has been proven to be successful (you know, the whole 3 SB thing?) and from the moment guys walk in the door, the veterans who have been there show them how it is. There is a huge level of personal accountability.

This is going to be fun. A LOT of fun. And don't think that these guys don't sense that. The Patriots team structure and winning will change them, just like it has changed every-single-player that has walked through those doors.

Until someone walks in and proves the system wrong, I am going to believe the Pats can change anyone. Because they have. And they will keep doing so.

Non_Sequitur
05-01-2007, 02:07 PM
This worries me the least. I don't think people outside of New England truly understand the atmosphere that has been created in the New England locker room. New guys either get with the program, or get gone.There is a system in place that has been proven to be successful (you know, the whole 3 SB thing?) and from the moment guys walk in the door, the veterans who have been there show them how it is. There is a huge level of personal accountability.

This is going to be fun. A LOT of fun. And don't think that these guys don't sense that. The Patriots team structure and winning will change them, just like it has changed every-single-player that has walked through those doors.

Until someone walks in and proves the system wrong, I am going to believe the Pats can change anyone. Because they have. And they will keep doing so.

Who have they changed?

JK17
05-01-2007, 02:12 PM
Who have they changed?

Well, I mean I don't agree with eveyrone who thinks the Pats will automatically change everyone who plays on their team but to name one guy...Corey Dillon had attitude questions similar to Moss going to NE and he turned out good to name one.

Non_Sequitur
05-01-2007, 02:19 PM
Well, I mean I don't agree with eveyrone who thinks the Pats will automatically change everyone who plays on their team but to name one guy...Corey Dillon had attitude questions similar to Moss going to NE and he turned out good to name one.

:) Corey Dillon was nothing like Moss. Dillon never quit on his team. He never slacked off on plays, or refused to go into the game when he was asked to.

Bigburt63
05-01-2007, 02:23 PM
dillon still talked out and was considered to be a bad locker room guy.

eacantdraft
05-01-2007, 02:24 PM
dillon still talked out and was considered to be a bad locker room guy.

But he didn't quit on his team like Jake.

Bigburt63
05-01-2007, 02:28 PM
i never said he did, im just saying he would talk out against the organization (bengals) and his teammates, none of which he did while he was here in new england

snobdmat
05-01-2007, 02:28 PM
dillon still talked out and was considered to be a bad locker room guy.

but he still played. moss gave up on the raiders last year. granted they were on their way to have the #1 pick, but you get paid to play football, so play. i think that moss will have a change of heart because he will want a superbowl ring to solidify himself as a hall of famer.

JK17
05-01-2007, 02:29 PM
:) Corey Dillon was nothing like Moss. Dillon never quit on his team. He never slacked off on plays, or refused to go into the game when he was asked to.

It was actually, very, very similar to Moss' situation...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_29_228/ai_n6142167
From the moment Corey Dillon was traded to New England in April, the question wasn't what the oft-troubled running back could bring the Patriots on the field. Rather, why would coach Bill Belichick accumulate so many players of high character, only to add someone with a notoriously selfish reputation who once refused to enter a game?

That might not seem like much, but it represented a substantial reversal from Dillon's days in Cincinnati, where he fought the Bengals over every penny and was mostly a no-show during the offseason, when he preferred to pursue his aggressive workouts on his own. In Cincinnati, Dillon came to define the term "malcontent," but he arrived in Foxboro having left his infamous attitude by the banks of the Ohio River.

Dillon suffered one of the few injuries of his career (a groin strain) and missed three games, losing his job to Rudi Johnson. When Dillon returned, he was asked to play a role. He responded by pouting.

I can't believe I'm defending the Pats in one thread, despite seeing the attitude of some Patriots fans in others that have been locked...

Non_Sequitur
05-01-2007, 02:34 PM
It was actually, very, very similar to Moss' situation...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_29_228/ai_n6142167






I can't believe I'm defending the Pats in one thread, despite seeing the attitude of some Patriots fans in others that have been locked...

+rep 10 characters

Bigburt63
05-01-2007, 02:40 PM
I'm not saying that the pats cant do any wrong, my feeling is that until it happens i ha ve faith in pioli and belicheck's decisions. I will agree with you that without knowing what team made the deals, i probably would have guessed the redskins

JK17
05-01-2007, 02:41 PM
i don't care how much pats fans and apologists want to deny it, if you heard about all the signings without knowing who did it, your first guess would be the redskins. it will be intriguing to see whether the moves even vaguely work out. i understand the "they've done it before" attitude, but this thinking that the pats are somehow infallible is funny.

I'm not sure if you were referring to me as an apologist because I had taken the Pats side in this one, but I figured I'd make my opinion a little more clear anyway.

I don't think the Pats are infallible and I think they could be making a huge mistake. I don't thikn they definitely are, but I think they very well could be making a huge mistake. Basically, it's really up in the air. They made a lot of questionable moves in the offseason, and I don't think its guaranteed they change Moss' atttitude, but if any team were to do it, I would bet on the Patriots to do it.

That being said, even if they do change their attitude I don't think it means they are only looking at this years Super Bowl, as was said earlier, and I don't thikn they are even a lock for it, as is the common assumption by some.

No matter what gets said, the facts won't change. They brought in a ton of talent this offseason. It makes them a scary team, and they are the most likely to change poor, selfish attitudes. They are not a lock for the Super Bowl, or to get that talent to live up to its potential. And they have not developed a win now or bust attitude.

JK17
05-01-2007, 02:50 PM
i was thinking of the media, more than anyone here. and sure, that's a lot of great talent they've added. awesome. i just find it interesting that, especially after numerous free agent threads pointed out that the most consistently successful teams DON'T dip into big time free agency, everyone wants to blow belichick for abandoning a philosophy that won him 3 super bowls.

*shrug* i'm not saying they won't win another one now, but the reaction is interesting to me.

Oh alright yeah, just wanted to make sure. I'm sure you saw the two locked threads regarding the Pats essentially being guaranteed the trophy this year and nothing makes me more mad then that.

That's an interesting note too though...with all the obsession the media gave to Bellichek's "high character" philosophy over the past few years, they seem just as accepting and praising of him abandoning that policy big time this year. Gotta take everything they say with a grain of salt.

Knights
05-01-2007, 02:59 PM
Oh alright yeah, just wanted to make sure. I'm sure you saw the two locked threads regarding the Pats essentially being guaranteed the trophy this year and nothing makes me more mad then that.

That's an interesting note too though...with all the obsession the media gave to Bellichek's "high character" philosophy over the past few years, they seem just as accepting and praising of him abandoning that policy big time this year. Gotta take everything they say with a grain of salt.

Let it go already. I've apologized.

JK17
05-01-2007, 03:03 PM
Let it go already. I've apologized.

...I didn't call you out I was just bringing up other evidence that I don't agree with the notion the Patriots are a Super Bowl lock....
Don't take it that personally I was just citing another thread.

Jay
05-01-2007, 03:06 PM
I'm judging track record. Corey Dillon, Rodney Harrison, Ted Washington, Brian Cox, these are all guys that came in with issues and all of them stepped in line and played the part.

Corey Dillon threw his pads in the stands and quit on the Bengals. How is that any different then anything Randy Moss did? A lot of people quit on the Raiders last year. He's just the most prominent.

Here is what Bill Belichick has to say:

http://weei.podzinger.com/viewMedia.jsp?feed=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.weei.podzing er.com%2Ffeed%2FTheBigShow.xml&feedid=3651&start=0&num=10&col=en-all-pod_weei-ep&filter=1&itemurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.weei.podzinger.com%2Far chive%2FTheBigShow%2F2007-04-30_Bill_Belichick.mp3&il=en&index=2

If it's good enough for him, and considering all he has done, why wouldn't it be good enough for everyone else? Until it happens, it hasn't happened, and the Patriots track record is what it is.

So I don't think it's out of line what-so-ever for Pats fans to sit here and have confidence that these players will be no different then anyone else that has come into the system and worn the uniform. And since it is May 1st, I don't think anyone is qualified to say they know where things will be five months from now...

JK17
05-01-2007, 03:17 PM
I'm judging track record. Corey Dillon, Rodney Harrison, Ted Washington, Brian Cox, these are all guys that came in with issues and all of them stepped in line and played the part.

Corey Dillon threw his pads in the stands and quit on the Bengals. How is that any different then anything Randy Moss did? A lot of people quit on the Raiders last year. He's just the most prominent.

Here is what Bill Belichick has to say:

http://weei.podzinger.com/viewMedia.jsp?feed=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.weei.podzing er.com%2Ffeed%2FTheBigShow.xml&feedid=3651&start=0&num=10&col=en-all-pod_weei-ep&filter=1&itemurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.weei.podzinger.com%2Far chive%2FTheBigShow%2F2007-04-30_Bill_Belichick.mp3&il=en&index=2

If it's good enough for him, and considering all he has done, why wouldn't it be good enough for everyone else? Until it happens, it hasn't happened, and the Patriots track record is what it is.

So I don't think it's out of line what-so-ever for Pats fans to sit here and have confidence that these players will be no different then anyone else that has come into the system and worn the uniform. And since it is May 1st, I don't think anyone is qualified to say they know where things will be five months from now...

I'm not saying Moss won't change but for however strong the argument that the Pats haven't not changed a player yet is, you can make another strong argument that Moss has been a problem for a while now and will not be changed wherever he goes. His track record isn't pretty if we are going to judge this sitaution by track records.

Jay
05-01-2007, 03:39 PM
*shrug* bringing in those guys (dillon in 2004, harrison in 2003, washington for one season in 2003, cox for one season in 2001) was done in a COMPLETELY different way than what new england has done this year (edit: IE, they were brought in at different times and one at a time, rather than all in one season).

further, holding onto a problem child for one winning season and then letting him walk is in no way impressive or indicative of an organization's ability to reform players. unless you believe the team intends to release some significant portion of it's acquisitions this year, they're not overly relevant.

further, i'm still waiting for you to point out a time when the patriots made similar moves in free agency. i'm not doubting that the pats won't be a good football team, but then, this thread asks if they're getting desperate. i find it interesting how quickly a pats fan would like to dismiss that notion, in spite of substantial evidence to the contrary.

I don't understand what you're getting at. What do you mean by "similar moves" ? They've traded for everyone but Dante Stallworth, Kyle Brady and Adalius Thomas. So what similar signings are you looking for? How about Rosie Colvin? That was a big contract. So there's a comparison to Thomas. Kyle Brady is exactly the type of player they bring in, so that's a wash. That leaves us with Stallworth, whose deal is back loaded and easily manageable. So what are we freaking out over?

And we don't need to turn Randy Moss's career around. The examples given of Ted Washington and Brian Cox are perfect, because what they did when they left New England is irrelevant. What they did while they were here proves my theory. Realistically, they only have to "change" Randy Moss for one year.

And seriously, Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli have gone out of their way to talk about their system and how they do things in New England. Listen to what they had to say about it:

BB: http://weei.podzinger.com/viewMedia.jsp?feed=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.weei.podzing er.com%2Ffeed%2FTheBigShow.xml&feedid=3651&start=0&num=10&col=en-all-pod_weei-ep&filter=1&itemurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.weei.podzinger.com%2Far chive%2FTheBigShow%2F2007-04-30_Bill_Belichick.mp3&il=en&index=2

SP: http://weei.podzinger.com/viewMedia.jsp?feed=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.weei.podzing er.com%2Ffeed%2FDaleAndHolley.xml&feedid=3588&start=0&num=10&col=en-all-pod_weei-ep&filter=1&itemurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.weei.podzinger.com%2Far chive%2FDaleAndHolley%2F2007-05-01_Scott_Pioli_Patriots_VP_Player_Personnel.mp3&il=en&index=1

They both speak GLOWINGLY about Randy Moss, and they have done something no one on this message board can even pretend to have done, and that's actually interacted with Moss. We know nothing more than what the media wants us to know. They did their homework. They both stated this is not something that happened over-night. Bill Belichick said he learned most of what he knows about Randy Moss from DOUG GABRIEL, a guy he clashed with and cut!! Kind of ironic I would say.

So the bottom line is, I trust Belichick and Pioli's decision because they have ALWAYS made the right decision. Tell me a move they have made that has really hurt them. The closest anyone can come is Deion Branch, but lets look at this realistically:

We trade Deion Branch for what turns out to be the #24 pick. Having two first round picks allows us to get a major piece to the defensive puzzle (Meriweather), and also gives us the luxury of trading the second first for a pick that is guaranteed to be higher than #28 next year, and a fourth round pick that they turned into... Randy Moss.

Who would you rather have? Deion Branch or Randy Moss and a first round pick? Seems pretty simple to me.

But the end reality is that no one is qualified to talk about what is going to happen when Randy Moss goes to the Patriots, because it hasn't happened yet. It's all speculation, on both sides.

Realistically, even if Moss comes here and acts a fool, we kick his ass to the curve, he loses out on over $15 million and we lose out on a defensive back that I've never heard of.

You don't win Super Bowls without taking risks. This is a low risk with a very high reward potential. I'll take it every day of the week.

Bigburt63
05-01-2007, 03:41 PM
I don't see the patriots being desperate for a few reasons:
1) signing moss is very low risk, as they could simply cut him if he became that big of a problem, while only giving up a 4th round pick for him
2) they needed players to come in and play right now while the older core (bruschi, vrabel, harrison etc.) are still around and playing at a competitive level, hence why they signed more free agents this year.
3) the pats have made splashes in free agency before, albeit not nearly as mucha s this year. for instance, trading for dillon, signing colvin from the bears, signing harrison, washington, cox, etc.

ElectricEye
05-01-2007, 03:53 PM
further, i'm still waiting for you to point out a time when the patriots made similar moves in free agency. i'm not doubting that the pats won't be a good football team, but then, this thread asks if they're getting desperate. i find it interesting how quickly a pats fan would like to dismiss that notion, in spite of substantial evidence to the contrary.
Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't think adding talent is a bad thing. The argument about us not dipping into free agency simply isn't true.
Mike Vrabel, Rosevelt Colvin, Junior Seau, Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, and Heath Evans were all signed in free agency, and all started multiple games for us this year. I'll give you the fact we've never made huge, big name splashes in free agency as of late. The biggest signing we've had in the past 6 years(not counting this season) was Rosevelt Colvin.
Look at it this way, in terms of those guys fitting in. The only starter we brought in on defense this year is Adalius Thomas. He fits in perfectly to what we do, so that's not really a concern. We've brought in new linebackers before and haven't had a problem yet. As for the offensive side of the ball, we've really had a TON of movement there, especially last year. In the past five(2001-2006) years, we've had 4 different leading receivers. Troy Brown twice, Deion Branch, David Givens, and Reche Caldwel, and that's not even factoring in the key contributions David Patten made. We only have one of those guys right now(Troy will probably come back though). So really, we've been constantly making moves in free agency. Just not high profile moves. The reason it works for us is because we're good at identifying guys that fit into our system. We're not spending dollars blindly here. We're actually going to have fewer new guys making starts this year than we did last year.
I don't think that just because a guy is a household name that it will be anything different than in times past. We've counted on free agents and new arrivals making big contributions on our team for years. There isn't any foreseeable reason that just because there is a discrepancy in talent with the guys we've brought in years past and this batch of guys that it will be any different.

Addict
05-01-2007, 04:31 PM
I think its a legit possibility for the reasons he just posted. I was thinking the same exact thing.

All these moves he's made are very polarizing compared to his blueprint to success. It seems like he wants one final hurrah before he leaves.

The BP 3-4 back in NY baby! I would do backflips for 3 days straight if that ever happened.

I'd want the BP 3-4 to come back to NY too. Just to see you do backflips for three days straight.

Jay
05-01-2007, 08:00 PM
let's be honest first, i don't care about randy moss and i'm not arguing he won't fit in. i'm simply saying that the patriots (to answer the above quote) have completely abandoned, for all intents and purposes, a philosophy that won them 3 super bowls.

Did you have a chance to listen to those two interviews? They both said, repeatedly, that they have done nothing to change any kind of philosophy. Their philosophy is to bring in the best players they can at a price that makes sense. And that is what they are doing.

what i mean by that is that they have NEVER gone after this many "superstar" (define as you will) players via free agency and trades in a single off-season.

Maybe they've never walked into a situation like these? Guys are taking less to come play for the Patriots. Let's pretend that trade never happened, and Randy Moss went somewhere else. Do you really think he would have only taken 3 mil guaranteed? Randy made this happen. He was the aggressor. He took the massive pay cut to go to New England. And that 2 million bonus only gets paid if he gets 85 catches. I don't think that's very realistic in this offense.

Adalius Thomas and Dante Stallworth also took very affordable deals. Adalius was offered more money to go to San Francisco. Rosie Colvin is the classic example. When the Patriots identify a need, they are going to spend the money to seal the deal. That is why Tom Brady got a big contract. That is why they paid to keep Richard Seymour around. That is why they locked up Matt Light, Dan Koppen, Tedy Bruschi, etc to long term deals at a good price. THAT is the way they operate. They make every move based on whether or not it makes fiscal sense. They don't get married to the romantics surrounding the player. They pay for the work they expect to get off the deal and not past production.

Everyone makes a huge deal out of all the guys they've let walk away, but I'd like to know one guy that has left that we've missed. Just one. I make this challenge every single time the Patriots "philosophy" gets called into question. No one has ever been able to give me a single player.

again, as much as i hate the patriots (and after going to school in massachusetts, i hate them a lot), i absolutely respect what they've done this off-season. they've made a number of very interesting moves, and if they are able to continue their personnel magic, they just acquired the most physically talented WR in the game for a 4th round pick. that's highway robbery. i'm more concerned about why they've suddenly made so many major moves, which is why i would agree that yes, they're getting a bit desperate. whether that's because belichick is getting ready to retire, or because someone higher up freaked out when they didn't win the super bowl i don't know. in any single off season, one of these moves would be standard operating procedure as far as i've seen. all of them together are decidedly not.

The answer is really easy: they made the moves because they could. Again, guys want to play for the Patriots. I don't understand how they are desperate. Are the 49ers desperate for signing all the guys they've signed? It's part of the process. They made moves that made sense for the team. Those deals weren't there before, so they weren't made.

edit: none of that is to say that i agree with the media instantly annointing them super bowl champion, but that's a different argument entirely.

Exactly, and I know you're smart enough to know how that works and why it happens. It's a story, and it makes sense.

i addressed (imo) most of what you said above, but i just wanted to re-qualify that i'm speaking specifically of big name signings. that's never been the patriots MO. again, feel whatever you want to about their ability to make the moves work, their behaviour this off-season has been very out of character.

And again, I am challenging you to listen to the words straight from the horses mouth. Two great, great interviews with the Coach and the man making the moves.

A better question would be: what "Superstars" have been there for them to take in recent years? Who specifically were they supposed to bring in that they didn't? They overspent big time on Rosie Colvin, and they've paid him every dime so far. So what specifically are you talking about?

They've won three Super Bowls in the last six years and made the playoffs in the two years since, went to the AFC Championship last year and realistically, were a play or two away from going back to the Super Bowl. It's not like they fell off the map and are struggling to get back or that a window of opportunity is closing. The entire team is still relatively young.

So in conclusion, these were not "acts of desperation" by any stretch of the imagination. It was simply the team making good moves that made sense for the team through the same process that every other team is allowed to do business by. No more, no less.

bearsfan_51
05-01-2007, 08:22 PM
Alright, I won't get into the lolinternetswar(as much as I want to) but I will say this; every team is desperate. Every team will do whatever they think gives them the best shot at winning. And if they don't, they really aren't doing their jobs.

Dude your sig quote is the funniest thing I've seen in a while. Jets future should have his nuts stapled to his face.

The Unseen
05-01-2007, 08:24 PM
Dude your sig quote is the funniest thing I've seen in a while. Jets future should have his nuts stapled to his face.

While we're off-topic...

I like the idea of hall-of-famers with their own link color, but that yellow is WAAAAAYYYY too bright.

bearsfan_51
05-01-2007, 08:26 PM
While we're off-topic...

I like the idea of hall-of-famers with their own link color, but that yellow is WAAAAAYYYY too bright.
Is that what that is? I was really confused why my name was yellow. Oh well..

bored of education
05-01-2007, 08:26 PM
If Moss or stallworth get more than 50 receptions each then i guess they make out in the deal.

but dont count on it.

ElectricEye
05-01-2007, 08:26 PM
Dude your sig quote is the funniest thing I've seen in a while. Jets future should have his nuts stapled to his face.

He goes on to say in that same conversation that he should be the winner of the "Greatest philosipher award." award. It was an awesome exchange.
Anyway...on topic...
I defiantly agree with Jay, but I'll admit to being biased.

Xenos
05-02-2007, 12:14 AM
The only problem I see with what the Patriots are doing is the potential locker room problems. No not from the characters of the player they acquire, but from the amount. I mean I feel they overpaid for Wes Walker when they could have spent it on Deion Branch. It's one thing to overpay a player on your own team, it's something else entirely to do for someone else. It can cause your own players to feel angry and upset about being paid so cheaply. I think it already started to rear its ugly head with the comments Asante Samuel made earlier this year.

Non_Sequitur
05-02-2007, 01:31 AM
The only problem I see with what the Patriots are doing is the potential locker room problems. No not from the characters of the player they acquire, but from the amount. I mean I feel they overpaid for Wes Walker when they could have spent it on Deion Branch. It's one thing to overpay a player on your own team, it's something else entirely to do for someone else. It can cause your own players to feel angry and upset about being paid so cheaply. I think it already started to rear its ugly head with the comments Asante Samuel made earlier this year.

Agreed. What are the Pats going to do when/if Samuel holds out? Switch Randy Moss to DB?

Jay
05-02-2007, 07:12 AM
I'd say adding Tory James and Brandon Meriweather addresses that. What are the Jets going to do if Jonathan Vilma sneezes hard and falls off a boat and the Loch Ness Monster eats him? You know, hypothetically...

Joe Montana
05-02-2007, 10:06 AM
There dynasty is beginning to close. New teams are rising -New Orleans, Arizona, Niners, Chicago. Tom Brady is getting old but still the best behind Montana. He just needs veteran,elite, and skilled supporting cast to continue there dynasty maybe for the next 5years then it will be down hill from there.
Niners might starting another one again. Niners has an excellent coach-totally competent, excellent team president and scouting, owner willing to spend.
Niners in control of salary cap now.The future for the niners looks amazing.

JK17
05-02-2007, 10:08 AM
There dynasty is beginning to close. New teams are rising -New Orleans, Arizona, Niners, Chicago. Tom Brady is getting old but still the best behind Montana. He just needs veteran,elite, and skilled supporting cast to continue there dynasty maybe for the next 5years then it will be down hill from there.
Niners might starting another one again. Niners has an excellent coach-totally competent, excellent team president and scouting, owner willing to spend.
Niners in control of salary cap now.The future for the niners looks amazing.

Dynast may be ending but there are better examples of teams to use then Arizona and the Niners...

portermvp84
05-02-2007, 12:28 PM
I would have to say the Patriots are going to be unstopable and better this year than last year. I'm picking them for the SB champs.

Non_Sequitur
05-02-2007, 12:40 PM
I'd say adding Tory James and Brandon Meriweather addresses that. What are the Jets going to do if Jonathan Vilma sneezes hard and falls off a boat and the Loch Ness Monster eats him? You know, hypothetically...

The liklihood of Asante Samuel holding out is much greater than the liklihood that Jonathan Vilma sneezes hard and falls off a boat and is eaten by the Loch Ness Monster.

Jay
05-02-2007, 12:42 PM
Thank you captain obvious.

Xenos
05-02-2007, 06:54 PM
I'd say adding Tory James and Brandon Meriweather addresses that. What are the Jets going to do if Jonathan Vilma sneezes hard and falls off a boat and the Loch Ness Monster eats him? You know, hypothetically...
Adding an old cornerback who's best days are behind him and a rookie safety that could or could not succeed in the NFL doesn't solve anything. I usually agree with the Pat's decision but that's usually because the people they let go were over the hill, while Asante Samuel is just getting into his prime at a position that is very important.
Your chances of making it to the super bowl would become much more difficult if you lose Samuel. Heck, if anything this offseason could start a chain of events when you want to extend other up and coming players from your team, and you can't because they want even more money. It could very well become a domino effect since the Pats diverged from their winning formula. Look what it did to the Eagles. Giving huge payday checks to big name FA aren't the key to become competitive year in and year out like you and the Eagles have proven in the past.

Jay
05-02-2007, 07:18 PM
Would you say Tory James is better than Ray Mickens? Would you say Brandon Meriweather is better than Artrell Hawkins? That's all we need. And they are. Asante will be fine. I am not remotely worried. He is one out of 22 starters. The whole team isn't going to fall apart because of Asante Samuel.

Our offense is set up to be as high powered an offense as there is in the league. Anyone who is legitimately trying to argue that the Patriots offense should not be lethal is absolutely insane.

And again, I CHALLENGE ANYONE to listen to those interviews from the men who actually established "the Patriots philosophy/winning formula" and tell them they are wrong about what that "philosophy/formula" is. I don't want to hear lectures from outsiders who think they know and want to tell me what the "the Patriots philosophy/winning formula" is. I live, eat and breathe this team. I've been here through the whole thing. I think I'm more qualified to make that assessment. Clearly, anyone who thinks the Patriots are doing anything different here is completely misinformed...

Xenos
05-02-2007, 07:26 PM
Would you say Tory James is better than Ray Mickens? Would you say Brandon Meriweather is better than Artrell Hawkins? That's all we need. And they are. Asante will be fine. I am not remotely worried. He is one out of 22 starters. The whole team isn't going to fall apart because of Asante Samuel.

Our offense is set up to be as high powered an offense as there is in the league. Anyone who is legitimately trying to argue that the Patriots offense should not be lethal is absolutely insane.

And again, I CHALLENGE ANYONE to listen to those interviews from the men who actually established "the Patriots philosophy/winning formula" and tell them they are wrong. I don't want to hear lectures from outsiders who think they know and want to tell me what the "the Patriots philosophy/winning formula" is. I live, eat and breathe this team. I've been here through the whole thing. I think I'm more qualified to make that assessment. Clearly, anyone who thinks the Patriots are doing anything different here is completely misinformed...
Alright then tell me what the Patriots winning formula is then.
I've always believed it was drafting to build the team, and going after low cost good character FAs, if any, that didn't hurt your salary cap, because then you'll be able to use that money to extend your own big name talent.

Oh and I still don't know how your offense will be high powered. Stallsworth hasn't exactly been the model of consistency and durability. Moss takes plays off even when he was in Minnesota and even when he wasn't, teams seemed to have figured him out now.

Non_Sequitur
05-02-2007, 07:33 PM
Thank you captain obvious.

Well hey, if you are going to make absurd statements in a legit argument, then I'll have to be captain obvious and point that out.

Jay
05-02-2007, 07:35 PM
I don't have to tell you anything, there are two links on the second page where BILL BELICHICK and SCOTT PIOLI can tell you allllll about it. They are right, you are wrong, that's all there is to it.

And seriously, it's May 2nd. I am not going to spend the next three-four months debating this crap. This thread was started by an idiot Jets fan who wants to stretch anything the Patriots do into something it's not to make him feel better about himself. As proven on the first page, he has started thread after thread in the wake of the draft trying to put the Jets over. Whatever. I am not going to sit here and argue with a bunch of nitwits that think they know more about this team then I do. We can all speculate who is going to do what until we're blue in the face, no one is going to be right or wrong until the season is over. So whatever.

Jay
05-02-2007, 07:39 PM
Well hey, if you are going to make absurd statements in a legit argument, then I'll have to be captain obvious and point that out.

You mean to tell me it isn't likely that Jonathan Vilma may fall off a boat and get eaten by the Lock Ness Monster? NO WAY!! http://www.ezboard.com/image/emoticons_classic/laugh.gif

How about if he gets slashed up while camping by Big Foot? Maybe killed in his dreams by Freddy? Maybe pecked to death by Penguins at the North Pole????

Jay
05-02-2007, 08:35 PM
Why should I have to tell you anything? All that information is readily available straight from the horses mouth at the links provided. I'd say Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli are much more qualified to tell you that you are wrong then I am...

And I've already sited examples. So whatever. You clearly want to believe what you want to believe, so I'll just take solace knowing you're wrong.

Jay
05-02-2007, 08:41 PM
They've signed... no... traded for one superstar level player this offseason. How often does any team sign a "superstar level player" in an offseason? I think it's safe to say the Patriots do it about as often...

So you are still wrong. They have no signed any "superstar level players" this offseason. They've signed some pretty good players at very reasonable rates.

And since you clearly are not interested in why you are wrong and clearly have no intention of listening to what the guys who actually run the organization have to say, I'm just going to let that speak for itself. You're wrong. Plain and simple. The Patriots continue to operate under the mantra that they are going to bring in the best players for the best price.

Xenos
05-02-2007, 09:35 PM
They've signed... no... traded for one superstar level player this offseason. How often does any team sign a "superstar level player" in an offseason? I think it's safe to say the Patriots do it about as often...

So you are still wrong. They have no signed any "superstar level players" this offseason. They've signed some pretty good players at very reasonable rates.

And since you clearly are not interested in why you are wrong and clearly have no intention of listening to what the guys who actually run the organization have to say, I'm just going to let that speak for itself. You're wrong. Plain and simple. The Patriots continue to operate under the mantra that they are going to bring in the best players for the best price.
Therein lies the problem. They're paying a lot of money for decent to medicore talent (Wes Walker gets a 20 million dollar, 5 year contract, with 9 million guaranteed?). I mean how do you think most players on your team will feel about that especially since the Patriots paid that much for a utility player and not a starter. Obviously, you'll probably be fine this season but it's going to come back and possibly bite you later along the line when you need to extend some key guys.

Oh and the links' aren't working for me for some odd reason.

Non_Sequitur
05-02-2007, 09:45 PM
You mean to tell me it isn't likely that Jonathan Vilma may fall off a boat and get eaten by the Lock Ness Monster? NO WAY!! http://www.ezboard.com/image/emoticons_classic/laugh.gif

How about if he gets slashed up while camping by Big Foot? Maybe killed in his dreams by Freddy? Maybe pecked to death by Penguins at the North Pole????

And the odds of Samuel holding out are 50/50. Something you are avoiding with all of this absurd creatures of myth talk.

Bigburt63
05-02-2007, 09:47 PM
Therein lies the problem. They're paying a lot of money for decent to medicore talent (Wes Walker gets a 20 million dollar, 5 year contract, with 9 million guaranteed?). I mean how do you think most players on your team will feel about that especially since the Patriots paid that much for a utility player and not a starter. Obviously, you'll probably be fine this season but it's going to come back and possibly bite you later along the line when you need to extend some key guys.

Oh and the links' aren't working for me for some odd reason.

welker is going to start as the slot receiver

Non_Sequitur
05-02-2007, 09:49 PM
welker is going to start as the slot receiver

Slot is considered a "starting" position? I've seen the Jets start the first play in a two TE set, does that mean we can call our 2nd string TE a "starter" too?

Bigburt63
05-02-2007, 09:56 PM
Slot is considered a "starting" position? I've seen the Jets start the first play in a two TE set, does that mean we can call our 2nd string TE a "starter" too?

when ur offense consists of mainly 3 wr sets then yes i would consider him a starter. how many teams actually start with a fb in the game consistently?



also, this is from the patriots website that has pioli and bellicheck talking about the recent moves (someone said the movie links weren't working.

http://www.patriots.com/news/index.cfm?ac=latestnewsdetail&pid=25070&pcid=41

ElectricEye
05-02-2007, 10:12 PM
Slot is considered a "starting" position? I've seen the Jets start the first play in a two TE set, does that mean we can call our 2nd string TE a "starter" too?

The slot position is evolving. I would actually consider a the slot guy to be a starter. Even if they don't meet the strict definition of starting, they contribute enough to an offense to be considered a starter. 3 reciever sets are becoming the standard these days anyway.

Jay
05-02-2007, 10:14 PM
Here is what people don't seem to understand: Wes Welker will never, NEVER see his 18.1 million over the next five years.

The Patriots saw a player they wanted and they got him. That's all there is to it. That's all there is to it. They didn't overpay. He's guaranteed 9 million over 5 years.

Adalius Thomas was the best defensive player on the market this offseason, and was the PERFECT Patriot-type player. The Patriots needed LB's and they got their guy, and they got him for less money then other teams were offering. He's not a superstar, and he's not getting paid superstar money. He will be getting paid well, but that's part of the process. And the Patriots defense is much, MUCH better with him on the team. Not even up for debate.

So then there's Donte Stallworth, who signed a glorified one year contract. They are paying him 3.6 million this year. He was the best receiver on the market, and they got him. He will NEVER see any of the other money on his contract. EVER. If your team was weak at the receiver position and they had the opportunity to add the best one on the open market at a decent price, wouldn't you want them to do it?

Randy Moss is guaranteed THREE million this year. The Patriots will make that back in jersey sales before the season even starts.

This entire conversation is ridiculous. The Pats have won three Super Bowls this decade, and are poised to continue their run as one of the powers of the NFL. That's all there is to it. They are every bit as desperate as every other team in the NFL. No more, no less.

wogitalia
05-02-2007, 10:40 PM
"The Patriots are starting to feel like the Redskins." And while they aren't yet on that level, they are signing malcontents and risky players to good sized money. The Skins would have extended Moss, and the Pats shortened him, but the point still stands that they aren't the team everyone thinks of them as. No longer are they all about Character and good business moves. They are now like so many other teams, all about winning right away.

Im not sure about that. The guys they've added are pretty good. Merriweather had one brain fart in a game where nearly everyone had a brain fart. Other than that he is actually clean(honestly, licensed gun in itself says to me he has his head screwed on, I cant remember the last time I heard a pro athlete get in trouble with guns and it was licensed). Welker by all accounts is a Belichek type of guy. Moss is a question mark, but Moss never caused any kind of locker room problems until he was losing. In his early days he had an attitude, but it was just a cocky guy who was winning. He went to the **** when they lost. Sure, he has his problems, but he is extremely talented and they wont take any crap from him.

Thomas is just a great signing. You weaken a top rival for the ring, you significantly improve one of your weaknesses. Just a good signing. I've never heard anything bad on Adalius.

Stallworth hasnt acted up since he left NO. Same deal as Moss really, once he got out of a god awful situation he was fine. Model citizen even. I mean winning will put things in perspective for most people.

I like all the signings, they gave up a little much for Welker, but he is a good fit. The big concern for the Pats at the moment should be getting Asante back and content. He is important to them.

Xenos
05-02-2007, 10:45 PM
when ur offense consists of mainly 3 wr sets then yes i would consider him a starter. how many teams actually start with a fb in the game consistently?



also, this is from the patriots website that has pioli and bellicheck talking about the recent moves (someone said the movie links weren't working.

http://www.patriots.com/news/index.cfm?ac=latestnewsdetail&pid=25070&pcid=41
Thank you.

Non_Sequitur
05-03-2007, 03:48 PM
when ur offense consists of mainly 3 wr sets then yes i would consider him a starter. how many teams actually start with a fb in the game consistently?



also, this is from the patriots website that has pioli and bellicheck talking about the recent moves (someone said the movie links weren't working.

http://www.patriots.com/news/index.cfm?ac=latestnewsdetail&pid=25070&pcid=41

A lot of defenses contain a nickel CB in their main defense. But no one calls the 3rd CB a starter.

simms2clayton
05-03-2007, 04:01 PM
Why do people listen to this crap from BSPN? I just hate how they overhype everything.

Bigburt63
05-03-2007, 04:09 PM
A lot of defenses contain a nickel CB in their main defense. But no one calls the 3rd CB a starter.

if a team runs a 4-3 as their base defense, who gets more time (usually), the 3rd corner or the guy they took off the field?

and anyways, the starting team is usually called by the base offense or defense. in the case of the patriots, who run a 3 wr set ALOT the 3rd, or slot, wr is a starter

Jay
05-03-2007, 04:47 PM
Reaction from players explaining why Randy will change, and why I am not remotely worried:

http://video.nbcsports.com/player/?id=96546

Non_Sequitur
05-03-2007, 08:02 PM
Reaction from players explaining why Randy will change, and why I am not remotely worried:

http://video.nbcsports.com/player/?id=96546

He was a loudmouth in Minnesota when he was winning too..... and when he was working with a HOF WR.

cunningham06
05-03-2007, 08:15 PM
They weren't until this breaking news story hit:

Tom Brady was seen in the city wearing a Yankees hat!

You know it's the offseason when that is news.

Jay
05-03-2007, 08:18 PM
He was a loudmouth in Minnesota when he was winning too..... and when he was working with a HOF WR.

What does that have to do with the video?

ElectricEye
05-03-2007, 10:11 PM
This is getting overly personal. Of course the Patriots aren't infallible. And of course theres a chance Moss won't fit in. But there are factors working in the Patriots(and ultimately Randy's favor) here that Jay has mentioned. Can anyone be 100% positive that it will work? No.
I find the fact that we're having a bullcrap argument about bullcrap(specifically, Randy's) to be highly amusing, personally.
As for the move being out of character, I don't think that's true. A player of Moss's caliber has never been available to us before, that's true. But we have had movement(too much of it) at the wide receiver position. If Moss had fallen into our laps last year, I don't have any doubt that we would have taken him. So it's not really a change in philosophy. If anything, this move was classic Patriots. We only traded away a 4th round pick. What are we known for? Getting players that we like for value. Regardless of how he played last year, a 4th round pick for Moss is a damned fine value.

Non_Sequitur
05-03-2007, 10:36 PM
What does that have to do with the video?

Did you not watch it yourself? Lol.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-03-2007, 10:53 PM
I'd just like to point out that Moss was a great teammate in Oakland. The guys caused no media issues, drew rave reviews in interviews from other Oakland players, and apparently worked as hard as anyone.

The reason I hate him is because he completely gave up by week 10, even when we were getting the ball to him. I don't expect that to be an issue in New England.

RaiderNation
05-03-2007, 11:10 PM
desperate? no there just wanting to make one more run before they lose some of there key defencive players

Jay
05-04-2007, 06:49 AM
rodney harrison (to paraphrase) - Moss won't miss this opportunity to win games with a championship team! All he wants to do is win!

wow, yeah, there's some objective ****. all TO wanted was to win, too.

further harrison (on how moss needs to act to fit in) - He has to take his craft seriously and work on the field. If he doesn't, we'll get in his face and tell him he has to.

more strong words. boy, they'll get in his face? i'd further say that has a LOT to do with Non-Sequiter's quote, but it's cool. feel free to disregard things because you posted a video of some pat's players opinions. that's bloody brilliant 'evidence' that's completely without bias. fantastic.

ooh, then we get to Dan Koppen - I have a lot of respect for him as a player! I've never met him, so I'll base my opinions on complete hearsay. Guys will be able to effectively police him.

wow, yeah, again, some player who admits he knows nothing about moss saying the pats will "take him aside" and that that should be clear evidence he'll straighten out.

worthless video that you likely posted in the hope no one would watch it. that entire video weakened your case, as the entire thing is pats players essentially supporting them own team. gosh, i'm sure the bengals never said similar things about henry, thurmann or brooks.

i'm so sick of this worthless argument. your team is not bloody infallible, this has been an abnormal off-season and there is some chance moss won't fit in with the pats. get over it.

Uh... yeah, not worthless at all, it's many of the key people on the team saying EXACTLY what I am saying. That THEY DON'T LET THIS HAPPEN. It's different here, and if you went to school here and followed the team for half a microsecond, you should know that. So for the billionth time, I am not REMOTELY worried. AT ALL. EVER. And I there is absolutely ZERO reason why I should be. It's never happened in the seven years that Pioli and Belichick has been here, so until it does, I don't believe it will. Am I saying it can't and never will happen? Not at all. It can. But until it does, it hasn't, and based on SEVEN YEARS, I don't think it will.

So since you watched the video, are you going to listen to the interviews? Of course not, because then you wouldn't be able to pull things out of your ass and act like a big shot. I have no problem with people being fair and objective about my team, but I am NOT going to sit here and watch people act ignorant or TELL ME I don't know what I am talking about when it comes to my team. That's crap. You are in over your head and you are flat out W-R-O-N-G.

How about this quote from a RAIDER FAN smarty pants:

I'd just like to point out that Moss was a great teammate in Oakland. The guys caused no media issues, drew rave reviews in interviews from other Oakland players, and apparently worked as hard as anyone.

*gasp*

No way! Positive words about Randy Moss? A good teammate? Say it ain't so! I thought he was a cancer and was going to destroy the Patriots?

This is business as usual. Period. The Pat spent the last few years signing the guys they already had up for the long term, and now that they have that out of the way, they moved on to bringing in other parts to make the team better. They are ALWAYS striving to make the team better. They have taken in PLENTY of players with questionable MO's and never had significant issues. The worst incident we've had is Monty Beisel getting pissed at a reporter and then berating our director of PR in front of them, and he got his ass kicked to the curve a week or two later.

Deion Branch started a stir, he's gone.

Corey Dillon started getting sour at the end of the season, he's gone.

If Randy Moss wants to pull any crap, he's next.

So go ahead and keep speculating and worrying about the length of my replies, because that is all anyone is doing at this point. There is no right answer, there is only history. Based on history, there is absolutely no reason for Patriots fans to be worried. The Raiders fan confirmed what we've been hearing all week, Minnesota players that have been calling into WEEI have been confirming what the Raiders fan just said. Not worried. At all. As a matter of fact, I've watched my team win THREE Super Bowls (you know, a reminder) in the past few years and this is clearly the best team of the group. Our offense got better, our defense got better and our main competition, the Colts, lost a lot on defense. We were a play or two from going to the Super Bowl last year. Why wouldn't a team that has clearly gotten better across the board be the overwhelming favorite to win it again on MAY 4TH? If it wasn't the Pats, it would be someone else...

And now we're up to May 4th, the fifth day of "RANDY WATCH 2007." FIVE DAYS WITHOUT DRAMA FROM MOSS! CELEBRATION EVERYONE!!

But yeah, this discussion is pretty much over, because there is really nothing left to say. You're going to continue being stubborn and I know I am right, and no one is going to tell me otherwise. So do with this what you will.

Bigburt63
05-04-2007, 08:43 AM
I don't think that any patriots fan has ever come on here and said that nothing that our team does can ever go wrong or that nothing can go bad. as Jay said we are merely pointing towards their recent history, more specifically their recent success at keeping head cases under control, and if they can't they kick 'em out. If the randy moss experiment doesn't work out, they tried, and they only gave up a 4th rounder for him, plus he took a pay cut to do it. also, i think its worth noting that brady agreed to restructure his contract to get enough cap room to bring him in, which should show what the lockerroom thinks they can do to keep him in line.

luckyjackaubrey
05-04-2007, 09:18 AM
"Desperate" is quite clearly the wrong word to use. How about astute ? Any fan of any team would hope for the leadership of that team to tailor their moves to the condition of their team and the competion.

The Pats were a few points short of participating in their 4th superbowl of the decade. The right course of action was clearly to use financial resourses and roster spots on players who would provide upgraded contributions in the immediate future. The proper course of action WAS to find established veterans to raise the onfield output and bridge that gap.

Is this a different method of building a team for Pioli and Belichik ? Yes , but there is a timeline regarding the evolution of a teams growth. Each stage warrants a different approach to allocating resources. We all know how the Pats were built, it is the basis for this threads original question, so I need not regurgitate it here. Point being, the team has reached a new stage in that growth. The core of talent has matured, even begun to decline in some cases. The management team has recongnized it, and put forth its best effort to:

1. Add talent that is ready to contribute now to a championship run.
(the multitude of FA signings, Moss trade)
2. Do so in a fashion as to not mortgage the future.
(contracts for all 3 wr's are at below mkt or voidable after year 1)
3. Continue to stockpile resources for the future success of the team
( five day one draft picks for 2008).

Regarding the character issue:

I am in the minority as a Patriots fan but I hate the Moss move. I have posted many times since the trade how much I value the way they won the championships more than the championships themselves. Character is important to me and I am realistic enough to expect more seasons ending w/o the trophy than with one. I want to be proud of the team for many reasons beyond winning. I share a great deal of the time I devote to football with my family. I love the fact I have been able to show my kids some valuable life lessons through the actions of this team.

Having said that, nowhere has it been said by any member of any team that character is more important than winning. The NFL is a business, they are there to make money. Winning certainly helps. We all work somewhere and I am sure there are bad eggs on each and every payroll we represent ( hell, half of you are that guy judging by the way you rip each other on here).

The bottom line is the ass on your payroll is not getting the pub that Moss is. The whole character of the Patriots thing is a media and fan driven topic. Did BB stand up in an interview and say , "hey not only did we win it , but look at the group of boy scout / tree huggers we did it with !" NO. The stories have been written, the characterization applied and a label developed. It doesn't make it less true, but it is important to point out that the label was not one that was a goal of the team.

Do they want the good guy image, hell yes, that and winning are the proverbial homerun.

Do they strive to be the boyscout team ? As long as it doesn't interfere with winning / making $$$

I don't like the Moss move, it does burst my bubble regarding the thought process they use in fielding the product I support and consider "my team". I have come to realize that my bubble was a little niave, and that most of this blather you fans of other teams are passing off as intellect is merely envy.

Have a great off season and lets see what happens between the lines on 2008

luckyjackaubrey
05-04-2007, 10:07 AM
I don't see how you can compare the two (pats / skins). The Patriots moves are based on a timline of a management team that has built a track record of success. They took a team from non-contention to multiple superbowl victories. They utilized a concept of sound drafting and mid to low level free agent signings focused on players who fit their scheme. They are now farther along that tilmeline and utilizing other methods of aquiring talent and targeting different types and tiers of players.

The Redskins have had the same philosophy since I was crapping my shorts in the early 70's. They disdain the draft and always bring in the veteran over the youngster. This over a LONG period of time and I am sure you can sight instances where they have great drafts, but please agree, this team has a track record of exporting, not importing draft picks.

Secondly the Redskins moves that you are trying to draw a comparison to are made by a team with no track record of winning. We are discussing recent history, the free agency period correct ? Daniel Snyder has modified the past Redskin philosophy of strong veteran teams and used his $$$ and the advent of FA to build what on paper have been some formidable teams.

Problem being football is not played on paper. You need a foundation. Some common bond , sense of team, what ever you care to label it. Bringing in 12-15 guys a year at big money to no existing structure and saying " now be a team" and " Oh, yeah, WIN !" doesn't work. THe pats illustrate that clearly enough. They took the existing core, added BB and his tactics, and it took hold, started to prosper, they added to it, modestly to see where it would go.

They unexpectedly won (insert the tuck comments here), added some more, hiccup - no playoffs.

Added some more modestly, built through the draft - hey it's a copycat league - copy yourself !! Won two more.

The Redskins have no track record of success - in regards to the present management team. They are desperate, they don't seem to be willing to say, we have holes, we need to set a plan in motion and build a core, create an identity, nuture it, supplement it and see where it takes us. Today's NFL is moving at light speed, Free agency and the almighty $$ keep it that way. It is a delicate recipe - success. Is the Patriot's run fortunate ? Hell yes, you have to be lucky to be good. Does every team start out with "a plan" , yeah.
Most plans don't seem to work out. The Redskins moves are desperate, and not well thought out. Randle El ? Archuleta ? Good players, in the right system, utilized properly. Square peg round hole moves - no cohesive gameplan = DESPERATE.

I don't recall sighting your views specifically, so I am not sure why you feel I thought you said the moves were stupid. Also I think I have stated I feel the team is less than perfect and do not view them as anything more than they are - the most successful team of the recent collection of seasons.

bored of education
05-04-2007, 10:28 AM
I'd be more worried about Stallworth not being apussy.

Jay
05-04-2007, 01:08 PM
Is this a different method of building a team for Pioli and Belichik ? Yes , but there is a timeline regarding the evolution of a teams growth. Each stage warrants a different approach to allocating resources. We all know how the Pats were built, it is the basis for this threads original question, so I need not regurgitate it here. Point being, the team has reached a new stage in that growth. The core of talent has matured, even begun to decline in some cases. The management team has recongnized it, and put forth its best effort to:

1. Add talent that is ready to contribute now to a championship run.
(the multitude of FA signings, Moss trade)
2. Do so in a fashion as to not mortgage the future.
(contracts for all 3 wr's are at below mkt or voidable after year 1)
3. Continue to stockpile resources for the future success of the team
( five day one draft picks for 2008).

Out of everything you just said, what have they not done in the past? I'm definitely baiting you... but seriously, think about that...

Non_Sequitur
05-04-2007, 01:29 PM
Randy Moss has not been great since 2003. It's a long reach back in time. If a great... anything, any other position, went someone where decidedly bad and was no longer good for 3 years, would people be excited about getting him back? IE Aaron Brooks used to be one heck of a QB. Over a three year period: 72-39 TD-INT and 3500+ yards every year. Then he's been not so hot over the past couple years. Why don't teams go after Aaron Brooks?

:)

Bigburt63
05-04-2007, 01:39 PM
because aaron brooks didnt give up on his team, he just couldnt produce. he doesnt have the same physical tools that he once had, which made him an above-average qb in this league. randy moss still has many of his physical tools, he is still that fast, can catch, and can run great routes. plus, brooks was never on the same level as moss in their respective primes

Jay
05-04-2007, 01:56 PM
Randy Moss has not been great since 2003. It's a long reach back in time.

49 rec 767 yards 11 TD's (13 games)
60 rec 1005 yards 8 TD's (16.8 ypc, 4th best in his career)
42 rec 552 yards 3 TD's (13 games)

Yeah, HORRIBLE. Let me know how many other players scored 22 TD's over that same three year time frame.

If a great... anything, any other position, went someone where decidedly bad and was no longer good for 3 years, would people be excited about getting him back? IE Aaron Brooks used to be one heck of a QB. Over a three year period: 72-39 TD-INT and 3500+ yards every year. Then he's been not so hot over the past couple years. Why don't teams go after Aaron Brooks?

:)

Because he's horrible, which is exactly why he got kicked to the curb in New Orleans, and is exactly why the Raiders were the worst team in the NFL last year, winning TWO game.

While we're at it:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2007/05/03/2007-05-03_pennington_wanted_moss.html

I have a feeling you'd be singing a different tune if the shoe was on the other foot :)

Non_Sequitur
05-04-2007, 02:33 PM
49 rec 767 yards 11 TD's (13 games)
60 rec 1005 yards 8 TD's (16.8 ypc, 4th best in his career)
42 rec 552 yards 3 TD's (13 games)

Yeah, HORRIBLE. Let me know how many other players scored 22 TD's over that same three year time frame.


Becuase I said "HORRIBLE." Lol.



Because he's horrible, which is exactly why he got kicked to the curb in New Orleans, and is exactly why the Raiders were the worst team in the NFL last year, winning TWO game.

While we're at it:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2007/05/03/2007-05-03_pennington_wanted_moss.html

I have a feeling you'd be singing a different tune if the shoe was on the other foot :)

Not really, I wouldn't. Pennington has been saying he's wanted Moss on our team since 2002. There is a reason our front office has ignored his request. If Penny got his wish, I'd be saying "Well, hopefully it's only this year he's going to ruin." Unlike some people, I'm not a homer who defends everything my team does. ;)

Non_Sequitur
05-04-2007, 02:38 PM
Double Post

Jay
05-04-2007, 03:35 PM
Becuase I said "HORRIBLE." Lol.

I'm not arguing semantics. We all know what you implied.

Not really, I wouldn't. Pennington has been saying he's wanted Moss on our team since 2002. There is a reason our front office has ignored his request. If Penny got his wish, I'd be saying "Well, hopefully it's only this year he's going to ruin."

Hahaha. Yeah. Ok. Right. That's funny. Fortunately for you, Chad Pennington does that on his own...

Unlike some people, I'm not a homer who defends everything my team does. ;)

No, you're much, much worse than that.

Non_Sequitur
05-04-2007, 05:46 PM
I'm not arguing semantics. We all know what you implied.

We all would know what I said, if people didn't misrepresent what I said.


Hahaha. Yeah. Ok. Right. That's funny. Fortunately for you, Chad Pennington does that on his own...

:)

No, you're much, much worse than that.

:)

bored of education
05-04-2007, 07:14 PM
I think Stallworth tweaked his hamstring while carrying Brady's Coach ManPurse

BroadwayJoe10
05-04-2007, 07:17 PM
I think Stallworth tweaked his hamstring while carrying Brady's Coach ManPurse

hahah it's funny cause he carries a manpurse

CC.SD
05-04-2007, 10:16 PM
"Quote:
Unlike some people, I'm not a homer who defends everything my team does. "




No, you're much, much worse than that.



I don't think that qualifies as a comeback. It's basically the internet equivalent of standing there stuttering.

luckyjackaubrey
05-05-2007, 08:27 AM
Out of everything you just said, what have they not done in the past? I'm definitely baiting you... but seriously, think about that...

You are right in that it is the same general gameplan but the free agents they are targeting are not complimentary players , but top tier talent. This is somewhat subjective but you have to agree that outside of the occasional Rosie Colvin, most of the pickups in the past were " who the hell is Joe Andruzzi" type.

This year the haul is a group considered by the media and fan concensus to be top rated performers .

Don Vito
05-05-2007, 08:38 AM
I could definitely see why people would say the Pats are getting desperate with all of the off-season signings and trading draft picks (something unusual for the Pats). But I do not think it is because they are, desperate. The Patriots are always changing the way they do things. They are known for drafting high-character guys, and with their first pick they take Brandon Meriweather and they trade their 4th rounder for Randy Moss. That is not waht we are used to seeing the Pats do, but it does not make them desperate. The Pats truly are always changing, after their first super bowl victory against the Rams they completely changed their defense, moving from a 4-3 to a 3-4. You could say that the personnel was suited for both defenses, but I do remeber when they made the shift everyone was asking "why?". The bottom line is that just because that the Patriots are doing things differently does not mean that they are desperate.

Knights
05-05-2007, 01:13 PM
I think it all comes down to everyone being jealous. The Patriots have been getting it done for years without many superstars. They have been more of a team than anyone else. This offseason, the Pats made huge signings and everyone becomes either scared or jealous and all they can pray for is a Moss meltdown. But the problem is that we all know that won't happen.

Jay
05-05-2007, 04:05 PM
You are right in that it is the same general gameplan but the free agents they are targeting are not complimentary players , but top tier talent. This is somewhat subjective but you have to agree that outside of the occasional Rosie Colvin, most of the pickups in the past were " who the hell is Joe Andruzzi" type.

This year the haul is a group considered by the media and fan concensus to be top rated performers .

Right, but these guys weren't there in past years. How is that to be held against the Pats? They make the moves they can in the time frame they can make them. How many huge free agents have switched teams during the last six years that have panned out and played positions of interest for the Pats?

The Pats are about value. Randy Moss for 3 mil a year and a 4th round pick is value. Adalius Thomas improving their LB corp vastly is value.

And people make a huge deal about the Pats letting guys walk away. I issued the challenge what, four-five days ago? And no one has presented a single guy they should regret not resigning.

So again, this entire thread is stupid, so I am going to get back to my original point of it being nothing more than an asinine topic created by a known Pats hater who likes to troll around and spin everything the Pats do into a negative. I am SHOCKED he hasn't started a thread about Tom Brady in a Yankee hat yet...

Non_Sequitur
05-05-2007, 08:45 PM
I don't think that qualifies as a comeback. It's basically the internet equivalent of standing there stuttering.

It's what happens when someone else is right and you are too much of a homer to be able to admit it. They act like bad politicians just repeating the same things over and over (IE Kerry is a Flip Flopper) with the hope that if they say it enough, people will believe that it's true.

Ex:
Right, but these guys weren't there in past years. How is that to be held against the Pats? They make the moves they can in the time frame they can make them. How many huge free agents have switched teams during the last six years that have panned out and played positions of interest for the Pats?

The Pats are about value. Randy Moss for 3 mil a year and a 4th round pick is value. Adalius Thomas improving their LB corp vastly is value.

And people make a huge deal about the Pats letting guys walk away. I issued the challenge what, four-five days ago? And no one has presented a single guy they should regret not resigning.

So again, this entire thread is stupid, so I am going to get back to my original point of it being nothing more than an asinine topic created by a known Pats hater who likes to troll around and spin everything the Pats do into a negative. I am SHOCKED he hasn't started a thread about Tom Brady in a Yankee hat yet...

Bigburt63
05-05-2007, 09:04 PM
It's what happens when someone else is right and you are too much of a homer to be able to admit it. They act like bad politicians just repeating the same things over and over (IE Kerry is a Flip Flopper) with the hope that if they say it enough, people will believe that it's true.

Ex:

but you do hate the patriots, as is evident by the number of anti-patriot threads you've created, and he was just pointing out the challenge that he issued some time ago that nobody has met yet. this is not him repeating things to try and make his point, he did, and u simply ignore it. Jay, like many patriots fans, feel that this move could work out very well (not WILL but COULD), and this is based on their recent track record of bringing in head cases and being able to control them.

Non_Sequitur
05-05-2007, 09:22 PM
but you do hate the patriots, as is evident by the number of anti-patriot threads you've created, and he was just pointing out the challenge that he issued some time ago that nobody has met yet. this is not him repeating things to try and make his point, he did, and u simply ignore it. Jay, like many patriots fans, feel that this move could work out very well (not WILL but COULD), and this is based on their recent track record of bringing in head cases and being able to control them.

I've answered all of his points. I am not a Patriots fan, true, but I don't hate them. If anything I hate the fans that pretend the Pats are impervious to faults and criticism. Signing a guy who is more about the money than the team, trading for a Head-case, drafting an underachiever from Miami.... When other teams do this, it's bad policy. When it's the Pats suddenly it's just good strategy? That's bollocks and you know it.

Bigburt63
05-05-2007, 09:44 PM
I've answered all of his points. I am not a Patriots fan, true, but I don't hate them. If anything I hate the fans that pretend the Pats are impervious to faults and criticism. Signing a guy who is more about the money than the team, trading for a Head-case, drafting an underachiever from Miami.... When other teams do this, it's bad policy. When it's the Pats suddenly it's just good strategy? That's bollocks and you know it.

what some see as underachieving for merriweather, others see as potential. im not sure which guy u are referring to that we signed who is all about the money, but both thomas and stallworth (the two biggest FA signings) took the patriots offer when there was more money offered by other teams, hmmm all about the money?. we traded for a head case, but the feeling is that if it works out and he can keep his stuff in line, great, if not, w/e we can cut him and win without him, as we a have done for years before. the moves were designed to put us over the edge for this upcoming season, not for the long term (the exception being thomas). they still draft to have players for the future and present, but with a bulk of the team getting older they obviously wanted to bulk up to get one more push. the idea is to get a team that can make runs at the superbowl every so often, a cyclic pattern. while at the same time remaining competitive

P-L
05-05-2007, 09:55 PM
The Patriots also traded for a disgruntled player in 2003.

That Corey Dillon guy worked out alright...

Bigburt63
05-05-2007, 09:56 PM
The Patriots also traded for a disgruntled player in 2003.

That Corey Dillon guy worked out alright...

don't repeat facts, that means we're wrong and just keep trying to force it enough for it to become true

Jay
05-05-2007, 10:04 PM
I don't think that qualifies as a comeback. It's basically the internet equivalent of standing there stuttering.

I wasn't even going to address this, because Non_Sequitur has been exposed throughout this thread and I'd think that speaks for itself, but apparently not. So since I apparently need to write a ten paragraph essay for EVERY point made in this thread, regardless of how ridiculous, refer to, I don't know, the rest of the thread if you'd like reasoning behind said quoted statement. It's not really brain surgery.

It's what happens when someone else is right and you are too much of a homer to be able to admit it. They act like bad politicians just repeating the same things over and over (IE Kerry is a Flip Flopper) with the hope that if they say it enough, people will believe that it's true.

No, it's what happens when you deal with someone that has the mental capacity of a ****** and you don't feel like dignifying them with a response.

See, you're what we call... a hack. You're full of crap. You make **** up. As has already been cited in this thread, you're doing everything you possibly can to sling mud at the Patriots, and then you call people homers thinking that makes you argument any more valid. Your "argument" is baseless and pretty much invalid, but I'll expose that in just a minute with the latest gem you've left me to work with.

I've answered all of his points.

No, you haven't.

I am not a Patriots fan, true, but I don't hate them.

If anything I hate the fans that pretend the Pats are impervious to faults and criticism.

Something no one has done. I have personally said if you want to say something negative, come specific and come correct. You can not and have not done that, thus the reason this is on page five.

Signing a guy who is more about the money than the team,

A. Who are you referring to?
B. How are you qualified to make this assessment?
C. HAHAHAHAHAHA.

trading for a Head-case,

A. Who by all accounts is a great teammate.
B. Who has proven to be one of the best players at his position.
C. Are you a psychiatrist?
D. Have you met Randy Moss?
E. Know anyone who's had any interaction?
F. Have you even taken a high school Psychology class?
G. Can you predict the future?
I. Just seeing if you can spell.
J. Has Randy Moss even been introduced to the media in New England?
K. Since he hasn't, how can you act like an authoritarian and tell everyone how he is going to ruin the Patriots?
L. What happened to H?
M. So how do you know Randy Moss is going to ruin the Patriots?
N. I dare you to say previous track record.
O. Do we get the point yet?
P. Can I stretch this to Z?
Q. Nope.

drafting an underachiever from Miami....

Here's where you start slinging **** against the wall to see if it sticks. Your team is absolutely legendary in blowing first round picks, so I should trust your judgment here, but since the Brandon Meriweather pick has been applauded by critics across the board, I am going to take their opinions over that of a jealous New York cry baby who gets his yucks trying to put his team over on the Patriots.

Ironically, I've read many of the same critics who loved the Meriweather pick criticize trading up to draft Darelle Revis. What a co-wink-ee-dink.

When other teams do this, it's bad policy.

When your team can close the gap between Super Bowls to under 38 years, I'll let you lecture me on bad policy.

When it's the Pats suddenly it's just good strategy? That's bollocks and you know it.

Seems to have worked in Super Bowls XXXVI, XXXVII and XXXIX. It also seems to have won the Patriots the last four division titles. It also seemed to get the Patriots to the AFC Championship game last year. Do you need me to keep going?

You're a fraud. Consider yourself exposed.

Maybe we should make it policy to call any team in the NFL desperate any time they make any kind of addition to their team. Seems about accurate since this one is supposed to be legit. If we want to talk desperate, lets take a drive about four hours to the south. Doesn't this sound like the acts of a desperate team?

-Trading away draft picks for an aging system RB.
-Trading half your draft away to get two guys the division front runners are said to be targeting.
-Signing a DT that hasn't even played in the league in over four years.
-Signed an aging DE for no apparent reason at all.
-Wasted a draft pick trading for a loud mouthed RB that they kicked to the curve after the season.

Wow, this is a fun game to play. Maybe I should keep playing? Or maybe everyone gets the point?

So basically, every team in the NFL is officially desperate because they made a move and that means they are freaking out and want/need to win the Super Bowl right now. Wait, isn't that the point? Oh yeah...

Bigburt63
05-07-2007, 12:31 PM
or, just keep repeating a single fact like that means the exact same thing will happen every single time said circumstance happens. you're implying that the results are basically inevitable because they've made one similar move that worked out. that's moronic.

no, we are saying that since the team has a history of turning around such players that there is no reason to automatically think it will fail, or that it will actually fail. can it fail, of course, but until this organization has one fail, i will continue to believe that it wont.

Jay
05-07-2007, 12:51 PM
If people bring idiotic reasons and examples to the table, you should. I certainly won't tolerate people making baseless claims about my team.

And there's no need to act butt hurt over it. As has been stated many times in this thread, Non_Sequitor takes pot-shots at the Pats every chance he gets, twists every little thing that happens into something it's not, and generally has an inferiority complex towards the Pats. If you want proof, I've already provided a few links, and here's another gem (http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6981) that he decided to post in the Pats forum. So gee, I wonder why I am not taking him seriously?

No one is saying it can't happen, we're saying that it hasn't, and there is absolutely zero reason to believe it will because of that fact. We've had a 100% success rate. 100% Raider fans haven't given me a reason to think otherwise. Vikings fans haven't given me a reason to think otherwise. You certainly have not given me any reason to believe otherwise. So why should I be forced to believe that Randy Moss is going to be a problem with the Patriots? Why should I be forced to believe the Patriots are desperate because they followed the process of acquiring new players? Why is it considered fact when someone who's not a Patriot fan says that, but it's completely ridiculous when a Patriots fan tells them they are wrong? None of this makes sense.

Please, I am begging you, answer these questions for me. You are so obsessed with making us Patriots fans bow down while you force-feed us everything you're shooting our way as factual information because you're saying it and we're just homer Patriot fans, bring something to the table here. Otherwise... sheesh man, let it go. Seriously.

Jay
05-07-2007, 01:12 PM
If that makes you sleep better at night, then you believe what you want.

All I know, is that it is now May 7th, and Randy Moss hasn't even stepped foot in a Patriots locker room, so neither of us are qualified to say what's going to happen. You may be right. You'll probably be wrong. But either way, throwing our e-cocks on the table isn't going to win this argument, because quite frankly, there isn't a right answer.

So unless you've got something factual you want to bring to the table, I implore you find another topic to harp on. Because until it happens, it hasn't happened, and I am not going to sit around and worry that it's going to happen. Bottom line. And that's the way it should be.

Enjoy Daniel Graham. He wasn't used right here and he is a fine addition to your team.

But here's an interesting topic I should start: Are the Broncos getting desperate? I mean, signing Daniel Graham, trading for Dre Bly? What is this world coming to?!? See how ridiculous that sounds? Yeah, I thought so...

Jay
05-07-2007, 05:29 PM
I don't think you're getting desperate at all. I think it's a team following the process. So clearly, we have philosophical differences. Thus the reason this is on page six and we talked in circles. [/thread]