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View Full Version : Proof that ESPN is full of numbskulls


ricky bobby
11-08-2006, 07:30 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2652676

Summary
QB rankings

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Bress

So far so good right? But wait it gets better

4. Philip Rivers - Umm yeaahhh the 4rth best in the league
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Mike Vick - If you took away his mobility, he'd be nothing.
7. Marc Bulger
8. Jake Plummer - Wasn't there a QB controversy a week ago?
9. Carson Palmer
10. Tony Romo - He's looked good in his two starts, but come on get real

They go on to rank all the 32 starting QBs. Asside from a couple players who deserve to be higher, ex. Eli Manning, Damon Huard, Rex Grossman, it's pretty good.

The sportsnation rankings are much more accurate.
http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/listranker?id=599

marks01234
11-08-2006, 08:10 AM
eh, I wounldn't say they are too far off.

Based on the way everybody is playing right now my list would be very similar. I'd probably have McNabb third though and I agree Romo has no business being on the list.

Rivers is outplaying Palmer this season and at this point should get the third Pro Bowl nomination. Vick and Brees are lighting it up as well.

draftguru151
11-08-2006, 08:13 AM
If the rankings are of right now those are pretty accurate. Yea take away Vick's mobility and he is nothing, didn't he have 7 touchdowns the last two weeks before Detroit? :?

Jughead10
11-08-2006, 08:16 AM
If the rankings are of right now those are pretty accurate. Yea take away Vick's mobility and he is nothing, didn't he have 7 touchdowns the last two weeks before Detroit? :?

But what did he do the 6 weeks before that? :?

But that choice doesn't bother me as much as Plummer and Romo being top 10 and Rivers being #4. Rivers should be 9 or 10.

njx9
11-08-2006, 08:26 AM
if you took away vicks mobility? well let's take away peyton's right arm, tom brady's entire team, put donovan mcnabb into concrete shoes, etc. that's ridiculous. how are you going to bash a quarterback by taking something away from him without doing the same to every single quarterback in the league?

and no matter how much better he's been lately, jake plummer belongs nowhere near any top ten list.

bsaza2358
11-08-2006, 09:16 AM
Not sure who actually made this list, but it's not exactly terrible. I can't argue with Donovan at #5 after his last 3 games. Rivers is pretty underrated. Palmer is not having a great year, and Vick is playing well as of late. Brees would be in my top 5 right now. Plummer is overrated on that chart fo sho!

I wouldn't say this is proof of anything other than that a consensus opinion is hard to find.

ricky bobby
11-08-2006, 09:27 AM
if you took away vicks mobility? well let's take away peyton's right arm, tom brady's entire team, put donovan mcnabb into concrete shoes, etc. that's ridiculous. how are you going to bash a quarterback by taking something away from him without doing the same to every single quarterback in the league?

and no matter how much better he's been lately, jake plummer belongs nowhere near any top ten list.
Yeah, except that a quarterback is supposed to have good arm. Vick does not. He has good legs, and a very very inconsistant arm. Why would you put a guy that inconsistant into the top 10? You don't know what he will do from week to week. He makes big plays, but takes even bigger losses. I mean, how many QBs have struggled agianst the Lions this year? Vick somehow managed to.

Jughead10
11-08-2006, 09:29 AM
if you took away vicks mobility? well let's take away peyton's right arm, tom brady's entire team, put donovan mcnabb into concrete shoes, etc. that's ridiculous. how are you going to bash a quarterback by taking something away from him without doing the same to every single quarterback in the league?

and no matter how much better he's been lately, jake plummer belongs nowhere near any top ten list.
Yeah, except that a quarterback is supposed to have good arm. Vick does not. He has good legs, and a very very inconsistant arm. Why would you put a guy that inconsistant into the top 10? You don't know what he will do from week to week. He makes big plays, but takes even bigger losses. I mean, how many QBs have struggled agianst the Lions this year? Vick somehow managed to.

In defense of Vick, that scheme gives him problems. The same reason why the Bucs defense has had success against Vick in the past. Marinelli knew how to beat him and they have their Derrick Brooks in Ernie Sims.

Shiver
11-08-2006, 09:53 AM
First of all; those rankings are weighted for weekly production and you mis-understood them, good job. :roll:

In defense of Vick, half of his incomplete passes were drops by receivers.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/football/nfl/11/05/bc.fbn.falcons.lions.ap/index.html

Vick completed 17 of 32 passes for 163 yards -- numbers that would've been better had teammates not dropped several balls -- with a TD and two interceptions, and he ran for 80 yards. He made a picture-perfect 19-yard pass to Alge Crumpler between two defenders in the end zone.

The actual count was six dropped passes on the day, several of which were drive killers on 3rd down. Even if his receivers only drop half of what they did, i.e about what normal teams do, Vick would've had 62% completion percentage and the offense would've scored a lot more. Even so, his "bad game" wasn't even bad, compared to how Tom Brady and Eli Manning did, statistically, to likewise sorry opposition.

Vick is on pace for:

2,724 Passing Yards
22 Passing Touchdowns
14 Interceptions
6.61 YPA

--

1,152 Rushing Yards
4 Rushing Touchdowns

Those numbers are eerily similar to Randall Cunningham's MVP 1990 season.

As for Philip Rivers, is it possible he could've played any better than he has? Tell me why Rivers shouldn't be considered in the elite class. He's been phenomenal.

TIP
11-08-2006, 10:51 AM
Vick has been very good this season, he has been passing very well, so I'm not sure what your logic is?

ricky bobby
11-08-2006, 11:24 AM
First of all; those rankings are weighted for weekly production and you mis-understood them, good job. :roll:


Explain this then

2. Brady- four interceptions
3. Brees- 136.7 passer rating
5. McNabb - How did he manage to slip in at #5? He had a bye week.

Unless of course Brady managed to get a higher passer rating than brees even with 4 INTs. But in that case he would have to throw like 10 TDs.

Here is my point about Vick.
- He is an athlete who the owner stuck in at QB.
- There are at least 15 QBs in the league that have a better arm than him, and his back-up probably has a better arm than him.
- His running ability suddenly makes him a good quarterback? Then why isn't Pat White from WV considered a good pro prospect?
- Does not have what it takes upstairs to make good decisions on a consistent basis. All defensive Coordinaters have to do is confuse him a little with coverage and he'll try to scramble, and when he played the giants, that resulted in 7 sacks.
- QB's must be smart. Examples of QB's that aren't smart Vick, Culpepper, Ryan Leaf, Vince Young.

GSOT
11-08-2006, 01:18 PM
Bulger should be higher IMO

CC.SD
11-08-2006, 01:39 PM
Rivers at 4? WTF. Should be higher.




Kidding. But seriously, he's going to win the Superbowl.

Romarville
11-08-2006, 02:27 PM
I think it's pretty good. McNabb is too high for a team that's lost 3 in a row. Romo's only played two games. Eli and Huard could move up. Grossman remains to be seen. But other than that, it's about right.

Draft King
11-08-2006, 02:39 PM
First of all; those rankings are weighted for weekly production and you mis-understood them, good job. :roll:


Explain this then

2. Brady- four interceptions
3. Brees- 136.7 passer rating
5. McNabb - How did he manage to slip in at #5? He had a bye week.

Unless of course Brady managed to get a higher passer rating than brees even with 4 INTs. But in that case he would have to throw like 10 TDs.

Here is my point about Vick.
- He is an athlete who the owner stuck in at QB.
- There are at least 15 QBs in the league that have a better arm than him, and his back-up probably has a better arm than him.
- His running ability suddenly makes him a good quarterback? Then why isn't Pat White from WV considered a good pro prospect?
- Does not have what it takes upstairs to make good decisions on a consistent basis. All defensive Coordinaters have to do is confuse him a little with coverage and he'll try to scramble, and when he played the giants, that resulted in 7 sacks.
- QB's must be smart. Examples of QB's that aren't smart Vick, Culpepper, Ryan Leaf, Vince Young.

Ok, I'm sorry, but what the hell are you talking about??? Do you have any idea what you are saying?? You are actually quite possibly the dumbest member on this board right now. Vick's arm is incredible so I don't know where you get that idea from. He has arguably the strongest arm in the league and doesn't even struggle that severly with accuracy, his problems for the past couple of years have to do with his footwork, which he has improved drastically this year with the help of quaterback coach Bill Musgrave. Also your argument of taking away Vick's mobility is completly pathetic, why would you take away the best asset of a great QB?? That's like taking away Peyton's work ethic. If you don't have an argument that you can actually back up don't even try.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-08-2006, 03:15 PM
Well two of you beat me to it but what the hell.

I bet if you took away Jerry Rice's hands he wouldn't be the best WR.

I bet if you took away Orlando Pace's footwork he wouldn't be a great LT.

I bet if you took away Champ Bailey's reaction ability, he wouldnt be the best CB.

I bet if you took away Shaun Rogers' strength, he wouldnt be a dominant DT.

I bet if you took away Peyton Manning's brain he wouldnt be the best.

I bet if you took away Ricky Bobby's brain.... never mind.

dre1614
11-08-2006, 03:36 PM
what's wrong with Romo being #10? i think thats pretty accurate

he as of now has a 93.7 QB rating
he as of now has a 64.6 completion %
is averaging 8.24 yards per attempt, 2nd in the league only behind Peyton Manning.

Has got better every game played
73.7 qb rating vs Giants
86.6 qb rating vs Panthers
109.0 qb rating vs Redskins


If it was based on the whole season so far, then he shouldn't be #10 but its based more on week, to week.

11-08-2006, 03:37 PM
Only problem I see is that Tony Romo is top 10 after only two good games. You're just mad because Eli isn't up there.

dre1614
11-08-2006, 03:40 PM
Only problem I see is that Tony Romo is top 10 after only two good games. You're just mad because Eli isn't up there.

you guys don't understand its not about who is having the best season, its week to week.

You can't name me 10 QB's who have been better than Romo the last 2 weeks

11-08-2006, 03:44 PM
Only problem I see is that Tony Romo is top 10 after only two good games. You're just mad because Eli isn't up there.

you guys don't understand its not about who is having the best season, its week to week.

You can't name me 10 QB's who have been better than Romo the last 2 weeks

This is clearly not based off of weekly performance because Tom Brady is #2 after his terrible game on Sunday night.

Basileus777
11-08-2006, 03:46 PM
Only problem I see is that Tony Romo is top 10 after only two good games. You're just mad because Eli isn't up there.

you guys don't understand its not about who is having the best season, its week to week.

You can't name me 10 QB's who have been better than Romo the last 2 weeks

Thats not the case, else Huard would be on here.

Plummer being on this list is enough to discredit it by itself.

dre1614
11-08-2006, 03:47 PM
Only problem I see is that Tony Romo is top 10 after only two good games. You're just mad because Eli isn't up there.

you guys don't understand its not about who is having the best season, its week to week.

You can't name me 10 QB's who have been better than Romo the last 2 weeks

This is clearly not based off of weekly performance because Tom Brady is #2 after his terrible game on Sunday night.


Maybe he takes into account the game flow, because 3 of Brady's int's were tipped.

And also if he ranked a qb #1 one week, and he has a bad week, he isn't all of a sudden going to rank him #30. part of it based on what he has done in the past, but most of it has been weekly production

IMO

dre1614
11-08-2006, 03:48 PM
Only problem I see is that Tony Romo is top 10 after only two good games. You're just mad because Eli isn't up there.

you guys don't understand its not about who is having the best season, its week to week.

You can't name me 10 QB's who have been better than Romo the last 2 weeks

Thats not the case, else Huard would be on here.

Plummer being on this list is enough to discredit it by itself.

Maybe he doesn't like Huard as much as Romo, don't know what to say to you there.

Maybe age, and growth has part to do with it also.

ricky bobby
11-08-2006, 05:18 PM
Ok, I'm sorry, but what the hell are you talking about??? Do you have any idea what you are saying?? You are actually quite possibly the dumbest member on this board right now. Vick's arm is incredible so I don't know where you get that idea from. He has arguably the strongest arm in the league and doesn't even struggle that severly with accuracy, his problems for the past couple of years have to do with his footwork, which he has improved drastically this year with the help of quaterback coach Bill Musgrave. Also your argument of taking away Vick's mobility is completly pathetic, why would you take away the best asset of a great QB?? That's like taking away Peyton's work ethic. If you don't have an argument that you can actually back up don't even try.

Vicks arm is incredible. Yeah, Incredibly horrible.

Career stats
62 TDs 46 INTs 76.2 rating
This years stats
11 TDs 7 INTS 79.0 rating

After six years in the league, those stats should be getting better, but guess what? they aren't.

Gee what a great arm. Peyton Manning could do that blindfolded, with two broken legs and one arm tied behind his back (his right arm).

Now i know your argument will be either
a. Stats don't matter (It's a classic and it always cracks me up)
b. Look at his rushing numbers (In that case stick him in at RB and let Schaub take over the slinging duties.)

Oh and i forgot to mention his wowing 54.2 % career completion percentage. I'm amazed that you can actually come on here and call me the dumbest poster on this forum. You think that a guy with that kind of completion % has a good arm? And i'm the dumb one? Get real.

There are 26 QBs in the league that have better QB ratings than him this year.

Do I need to argue this point any further? i think not.

njx9
11-08-2006, 05:26 PM
Vicks arm is incredible. Yeah, Incredibly horrible.

Career stats
62 TDs 46 INTs 76.2 rating
This years stats
11 TDs 7 INTS 79.0 rating


these stats are not indicative of having a great or poor arm. they're much more indicatve of his ability to read coverage and his receivers ability to catch the ball. the td numbers can also be influenced by the fact that their coach's strategy in the red zone is to pound the ball.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-08-2006, 05:31 PM
Ok, I'm sorry, but what the hell are you talking about??? Do you have any idea what you are saying?? You are actually quite possibly the dumbest member on this board right now. Vick's arm is incredible so I don't know where you get that idea from. He has arguably the strongest arm in the league and doesn't even struggle that severly with accuracy, his problems for the past couple of years have to do with his footwork, which he has improved drastically this year with the help of quaterback coach Bill Musgrave. Also your argument of taking away Vick's mobility is completly pathetic, why would you take away the best asset of a great QB?? That's like taking away Peyton's work ethic. If you don't have an argument that you can actually back up don't even try.

Vicks arm is incredible. Yeah, Incredibly horrible.

Career stats
62 TDs 46 INTs 76.2 rating
This years stats
11 TDs 7 INTS 79.0 rating

Gee what a great arm. Peyton Manning could do that blindfolded, with two broken legs and one arm tied behind his back (his right arm).

Now i know your argument will be either
a. Stats don't matter (It's a classic and it always cracks me up)
b. Look at his rushing numbers (In that case stick him in at RB and let Schaub take over the slinging duties.)

Oh and i forgot to mention his wowing 54.2 % career completion percentage. I'm amazed that you can actually come on here and call me the dumbest poster on this forum. You think that a guy with that kind of completion % has a good arm? And i'm the dumb one? Get real.

He has an absolute rocket. Possibly the strongest in the league. Actually, PROBABLY the strongest. And have you watched Falcons games? Living in Canada, I don't get to see a ton, but when I do see them, his receivers drop EVERYTHING. It seems like I could do a better job. But yeah, incompetent receivers, MUST BE THE QB'S FAULT. Not even Peyton would be able to do well with the stone hands Vick's receivers have. When Ashley Lelie is your best wideout, you have problems.

ricky bobby
11-08-2006, 05:35 PM
these stats are not indicative of having a great or poor arm. they're much more indicatve of his ability to read coverage and his receivers ability to catch the ball. the td numbers can also be influenced by the fact that their coach's strategy in the red zone is to pound the ball.

Yeah the classic argument of having bad recievers. He has 3 first round picks starting at WR, Alge Crumpler, an All pro TE, and you would think that the superb running game would take the pressure off of the passing game, but no. You can argue that Marvin Harrison didn't make Peyton Manning, but Peyton Manning made Marvin Harrison. And how about Tom Brady tearing it up with a bunch of mediocre recievers his whole career? Having brains is part of being a good QB, and i've already said that Vick does not have what it takes upstairs to be an NFL QB.

ricky bobby
11-08-2006, 05:38 PM
He has an absolute rocket. Possibly the strongest in the league. Actually, PROBABLY the strongest. And have you watched Falcons games? Living in Canada, I don't get to see a ton, but when I do see them, his receivers drop EVERYTHING. It seems like I could do a better job. But yeah, incompetent receivers, MUST BE THE QB'S FAULT. Not even Peyton would be able to do well with the stone hands Vick's receivers have. When Ashley Lelie is your best wideout, you have problems.

Yeah and i bet Larry Allen could sling that ball pretty far also. Recievers don't just drop the ball. Unless the reciever's name is Todd Pinkston or Terrell Owens. But i digress. If the QB put the recievers in good position to catch the ball, they would catch it.

njx9
11-08-2006, 05:40 PM
these stats are not indicative of having a great or poor arm. they're much more indicatve of his ability to read coverage and his receivers ability to catch the ball. the td numbers can also be influenced by the fact that their coach's strategy in the red zone is to pound the ball.

Yeah the classic argument of having bad recievers. He has 3 first round picks starting at WR, Alge Crumpler, an All pro TE, and you would think that the superb running game would take the pressure off of the passing game, but no. You can argue that Marvin Harrison didn't make Peyton Manning, but Peyton Manning made Marvin Harrison. And how about Tom Brady tearing it up with a bunch of mediocre recievers his whole career? Having brains is part of being a good QB, and i've already said that Vick does not have what it takes upstairs to be an NFL QB.

having first round picks at a position is also not indicative of talent. john elway couldn't turn marcus nash into an nfl receiver. for all of his accomplishments, steve young never turned jj stokes into a great nfl wr. dan marino couldn't help yatil green or randal hill.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-08-2006, 05:45 PM
these stats are not indicative of having a great or poor arm. they're much more indicatve of his ability to read coverage and his receivers ability to catch the ball. the td numbers can also be influenced by the fact that their coach's strategy in the red zone is to pound the ball.

Yeah the classic argument of having bad recievers. He has 3 first round picks starting at WR, Alge Crumpler, an All pro TE, and you would think that the superb running game would take the pressure off of the passing game, but no. You can argue that Marvin Harrison didn't make Peyton Manning, but Peyton Manning made Marvin Harrison. And how about Tom Brady tearing it up with a bunch of mediocre recievers his whole career? Having brains is part of being a good QB, and i've already said that Vick does not have what it takes upstairs to be an NFL QB.

having first round picks at a position is also not indicative of talent. john elway couldn't turn marcus nash into an nfl receiver. for all of his accomplishments, steve young never turned jj stokes into a great nfl wr. dan marino couldn't help yatil green or randal hill.

Yeah, first round pick is a terrible argument for talent. Robert Gallery must be a great LT. Ryan Leaf' headin to the HOF. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are the best WR duo in the NFL. 1st round picks do not equal good players, buddy.

ricky bobby
11-08-2006, 05:46 PM
having first round picks at a position is also not indicative of talent. john elway couldn't turn marcus nash into an nfl receiver. for all of his accomplishments, steve young never turned jj stokes into a great nfl wr. dan marino couldn't help yatil green or randal hill.

I'm in no way trying to offend you, but those names mean nothing to me. Way before my time. Also i'm not finding any statistics on "drops". I put them in qoutations because i'm not sure what exactly a drop is. If a player is triple covered and the ball skims off his finger tip? Is that a drop?

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-08-2006, 05:50 PM
having first round picks at a position is also not indicative of talent. john elway couldn't turn marcus nash into an nfl receiver. for all of his accomplishments, steve young never turned jj stokes into a great nfl wr. dan marino couldn't help yatil green or randal hill.

I'm in no way trying to offend you, but those names mean nothing to me. Way before my time. Also i'm not finding any statistics on "drops". I put them in qoutations because i'm not sure what exactly a drop is. If a player is triple covered and the ball skims off his finger tip? Is that a drop?

No, but when a guy gets hit square in the hands and it falls out, that's a drop.

ricky bobby
11-08-2006, 05:54 PM
Yeah, first round pick is a terrible argument for talent. Robert Gallery must be a great LT. Ryan Leaf' headin to the HOF. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are the best WR duo in the NFL. 1st round picks do not equal good players, buddy.
Vick's recievers are not bad. Roddy White, Jenkins and Lelie (well not really him) would flourish with a decent QB. I mean how can you run your route seriously when you know that the numbskull under center is going to try to scramble after seeing that his first read is covered?
Now lets look at the so called "busts" and who their QB's were for the starts of their careers

Charles Rogers and Mike Williams - had the honor of catching passes thrown by the great Joey Harrington. They were so demoralized they couldn't even play when Kitna stepped in.

If i'm a calvin johnson or Jeff Samardjiza i amd crossing my fingers when the following teams are on the clock
- Titans
- Falcons
- Dolphins

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-08-2006, 05:59 PM
Yeah, first round pick is a terrible argument for talent. Robert Gallery must be a great LT. Ryan Leaf' headin to the HOF. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are the best WR duo in the NFL. 1st round picks do not equal good players, buddy.
Vick's recievers are not bad. Roddy White, Jenkins and Lelie (well not really him) would flourish with a decent QB. I mean how can you run your route seriously when you know that the numbskull under center is going to try to scramble after seeing that his first read is covered?
Now lets look at the so called "busts" and who their QB's were for the starts of their careers

Charles Rogers and Mike Williams - had the honor of catching passes thrown by the great Joey Harrington. They were so demoralized they couldn't even play when Kitna stepped in.

If i'm a calvin johnson or Jeff Samardjiza i amd crossing my fingers when the following teams are on the clock
- Titans
- Falcons
- Dolphins

Are you for real? Well you know what, I'm gonna support my argument with stuff I know. Maybe you'll follow. Again, I don't get to see alot of Falcons games. BUT, I've seen on NFL Network stuff, he drops back, AND HE LOOKS AT MORE THAN ONE RECEIVER. I saw several instances of him looking at one guy, seeing him covered, and then throwing to an open guy. He doesn't focus on one guy all the freakin' time. And saying you're hoping you don't get picked by those teams if you're Calvin is absolutely moronic. He has Reggie freaking Ball throwing to him, every QB in the NFL is better. And Charles Rogers loves his weed, and has zero work ethic. Mike Williams, overweight, not fast enough to get separation. THEY AREN'T GOOD.

ricky bobby
11-08-2006, 06:10 PM
Yeah, first round pick is a terrible argument for talent. Robert Gallery must be a great LT. Ryan Leaf' headin to the HOF. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are the best WR duo in the NFL. 1st round picks do not equal good players, buddy.
Vick's recievers are not bad. Roddy White, Jenkins and Lelie (well not really him) would flourish with a decent QB. I mean how can you run your route seriously when you know that the numbskull under center is going to try to scramble after seeing that his first read is covered?
Now lets look at the so called "busts" and who their QB's were for the starts of their careers

Charles Rogers and Mike Williams - had the honor of catching passes thrown by the great Joey Harrington. They were so demoralized they couldn't even play when Kitna stepped in.

If i'm a calvin johnson or Jeff Samardjiza i amd crossing my fingers when the following teams are on the clock
- Titans
- Falcons
- Dolphins

Are you for real? Well you know what, I'm gonna support my argument with stuff I know. Maybe you'll follow. Again, I don't get to see alot of Falcons games. BUT, I've seen on NFL Network stuff, he drops back, AND HE LOOKS AT MORE THAN ONE RECEIVER. I saw several instances of him looking at one guy, seeing him covered, and then throwing to an open guy. He doesn't focus on one guy all the freakin' time. And saying you're hoping you don't get picked by those teams if you're Calvin is absolutely moronic. He has Reggie freaking Ball throwing to him, every QB in the NFL is better. And Charles Rogers loves his weed, and has zero work ethic. Mike Williams, overweight, not fast enough to get separation. THEY AREN'T GOOD.

I'm sick of arguing about Vick. I'm gonna let the stats speak for themselves. Nonetheless ESPN is still moronic. Jake Plummer, top ten? And when i listen to or watched ESPN a few weeks ago, all i was hearing was a QB controversy in Denver. Philip Rivers 4rth? Didn't we already go though this with Big Ben. They are only good because they have a superb surrounding cast.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-08-2006, 06:13 PM
Yeah, first round pick is a terrible argument for talent. Robert Gallery must be a great LT. Ryan Leaf' headin to the HOF. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are the best WR duo in the NFL. 1st round picks do not equal good players, buddy.
Vick's recievers are not bad. Roddy White, Jenkins and Lelie (well not really him) would flourish with a decent QB. I mean how can you run your route seriously when you know that the numbskull under center is going to try to scramble after seeing that his first read is covered?
Now lets look at the so called "busts" and who their QB's were for the starts of their careers

Charles Rogers and Mike Williams - had the honor of catching passes thrown by the great Joey Harrington. They were so demoralized they couldn't even play when Kitna stepped in.

If i'm a calvin johnson or Jeff Samardjiza i amd crossing my fingers when the following teams are on the clock
- Titans
- Falcons
- Dolphins

Are you for real? Well you know what, I'm gonna support my argument with stuff I know. Maybe you'll follow. Again, I don't get to see alot of Falcons games. BUT, I've seen on NFL Network stuff, he drops back, AND HE LOOKS AT MORE THAN ONE RECEIVER. I saw several instances of him looking at one guy, seeing him covered, and then throwing to an open guy. He doesn't focus on one guy all the freakin' time. And saying you're hoping you don't get picked by those teams if you're Calvin is absolutely moronic. He has Reggie freaking Ball throwing to him, every QB in the NFL is better. And Charles Rogers loves his weed, and has zero work ethic. Mike Williams, overweight, not fast enough to get separation. THEY AREN'T GOOD.

I'm sick of arguing about Vick. I'm gonna let the stats speak for themselves. Nonetheless ESPN is still moronic. Jake Plummer, top ten? And when i listen to or watched ESPN a few weeks ago, all i was hearing was a QB controversy in Denver. Philip Rivers 4rth? Didn't we already go though this with Big Ben. They are only good because they have a superb surrounding cast.


TOTALLY agree with the Jake Plummer thing. BRING IN CUTLER!! And I think it would be good to withhold judgement on Rivers, I haven't seen much of him, but his stats look nice, and in some games he's really stepped up and won them.

4pAc
11-08-2006, 06:17 PM
Yeah, first round pick is a terrible argument for talent. Robert Gallery must be a great LT. Ryan Leaf' headin to the HOF. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are the best WR duo in the NFL. 1st round picks do not equal good players, buddy.
Vick's recievers are not bad. Roddy White, Jenkins and Lelie (well not really him) would flourish with a decent QB. I mean how can you run your route seriously when you know that the numbskull under center is going to try to scramble after seeing that his first read is covered?
Now lets look at the so called "busts" and who their QB's were for the starts of their careers

Charles Rogers and Mike Williams - had the honor of catching passes thrown by the great Joey Harrington. They were so demoralized they couldn't even play when Kitna stepped in.

If i'm a calvin johnson or Jeff Samardjiza i amd crossing my fingers when the following teams are on the clock
- Titans
- Falcons
- DolphinsPerhaps you forgot about Roy Willams and how he played under the same situations and is now the best wide reciever in his division.

ricky bobby
11-08-2006, 06:21 PM
Yeah, first round pick is a terrible argument for talent. Robert Gallery must be a great LT. Ryan Leaf' headin to the HOF. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are the best WR duo in the NFL. 1st round picks do not equal good players, buddy.
Vick's recievers are not bad. Roddy White, Jenkins and Lelie (well not really him) would flourish with a decent QB. I mean how can you run your route seriously when you know that the numbskull under center is going to try to scramble after seeing that his first read is covered?
Now lets look at the so called "busts" and who their QB's were for the starts of their careers

Charles Rogers and Mike Williams - had the honor of catching passes thrown by the great Joey Harrington. They were so demoralized they couldn't even play when Kitna stepped in.

If i'm a calvin johnson or Jeff Samardjiza i amd crossing my fingers when the following teams are on the clock
- Titans
- Falcons
- DolphinsPerhaps you forgot about Roy Willams and how he played under the same situations and is now the best wide reciever in his division.
I may have forgotten about him. But he didn't exactly flourish under Harrington either, he's having a great year because Mike Martz is running the greatest show of turf all over again in detroit.

Space Ghost
11-08-2006, 06:43 PM
Did you watch any Lions game per chance? His rookie season Roy Williams was tearing it up making highlight reels all year but only played in like 12 games and a couple of those he was about 7th on the depth chart by half time because he was playing hurt. His sophmore season he had 8 touchdowns and had pretty good stats and again didn't start all 16 games. This year he is doing the same stuff in a more wide open offense that focueses only on him on passing downs pretty much. Martz plays favorites a lot of the time, Mike Furrey anyone? Point is, Roy Williams was great with Harrington and without him. His stats aren't miraculously better now than they were before, he is also in the year labeled as the breakout or deciding year for receivers a lot of the time.

njx9
11-08-2006, 07:21 PM
having first round picks at a position is also not indicative of talent. john elway couldn't turn marcus nash into an nfl receiver. for all of his accomplishments, steve young never turned jj stokes into a great nfl wr. dan marino couldn't help yatil green or randal hill.

I'm in no way trying to offend you, but those names mean nothing to me. Way before my time. Also i'm not finding any statistics on "drops". I put them in qoutations because i'm not sure what exactly a drop is. If a player is triple covered and the ball skims off his finger tip? Is that a drop?

*shrug* no offense taken. they were all "high profile" wide receivers taken by teams with hall of fame quarterbacks who busted shortly thereafter. green may have been injured, i can't remember exactly, so he may be the only one you can X off there.

Shiver
11-08-2006, 07:25 PM
Matt Hasselbeck, '04 season, had "talented receivers," they also averaged about 5-6 dropped passes per game. Dropped passes, while wide open are concentration errors, it has nothing to do with physical talent, nor with the ability of the Quarterback. When you drop a pass that hits you in both of your hands, with no contact from a defensive player, that is the receivers problem.

49ers fans wanted Jerry Rice cut because of all of his drops, but his coaches had faith in him and he worked so much he eventually rid himself of the problem. That's what defined his career. Young receivers drop passes, some correct mistakes, some never learn.


Ricky Bobby; was that Joe Montana's fault as a QB for Rice's dropped passes?

ricky bobby
11-08-2006, 07:56 PM
Matt Hasselbeck, '04 season, had "talented receivers," they also averaged about 5-6 dropped passes per game. Dropped passes, while wide open are concentration errors, it has nothing to do with physical talent, nor with the ability of the Quarterback. When you drop a pass that hits you in both of your hands, with no contact from a defensive player, that is the receivers problem.

49ers fans wanted Jerry Rice cut because of all of his drops, but his coaches had faith in him and he worked so much he eventually rid himself of the problem. That's what defined his career. Young receivers drop passes, some correct mistakes, some never learn.


Ricky Bobby; was that Joe Montana's fault as a QB for Rice's dropped passes?

I saw the pass that TO dropped on Romo. That was a drop. To be completely honest, i haven't seen that many Falcons games this year. But in the past the fault was not in the recievers it was in Vick taking off out of the pocket way too early. follow my reasoning.

1. Vick has great speed.
2. Defenses respect speed so instead of blitzing Vick they try to at least contain him in the pocket.
3. If a team doesn't blitz you and instead just tries to contain you in the pocket you have all day to throw.

Using logic, you would think that a QB who's legs draw so much attention from the defense would be able to make plays with his arm, But that is not the case with Vick. Therefore you can assume that Vick has a bad arm.

Just imagine if Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning didn't get blitzed. That would amount in 450 passing yards a game.

11-08-2006, 07:57 PM
Did we really need proof?

frogstomp
11-08-2006, 08:38 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2652676

Summary
QB rankings

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Bress

So far so good right? But wait it gets better

4. Philip Rivers - Umm yeaahhh the 4rth best in the league
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Mike Vick - If you took away his mobility, he'd be nothing.
7. Marc Bulger
8. Jake Plummer - Wasn't there a QB controversy a week ago?
9. Carson Palmer
10. Tony Romo - He's looked good in his two starts, but come on get real

They go on to rank all the 32 starting QBs. Asside from a couple players who deserve to be higher, ex. Eli Manning, Damon Huard, Rex Grossman, it's pretty good.

The sportsnation rankings are much more accurate.
http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/listranker?id=599

Inaccurate or not, you are in no position to be questioning other people's intelligence.

jackalope
11-08-2006, 08:39 PM
the rankings are fine if they're for how people are playing right now. they're obviously not who is the best QB in their career.

frogstomp
11-08-2006, 08:41 PM
I saw the pass that TO dropped on Romo. That was a drop. To be completely honest, i haven't seen that many Falcons games this year. But in the past the fault was not in the recievers it was in Vick taking off out of the pocket way too early. follow my reasoning.

1. Vick has great speed.
2. Defenses respect speed so instead of blitzing Vick they try to at least contain him in the pocket.
3. If a team doesn't blitz you and instead just tries to contain you in the pocket you have all day to throw.

Using logic, you would think that a QB who's legs draw so much attention from the defense would be able to make plays with his arm, But that is not the case with Vick. Therefore you can assume that Vick has a bad arm.

Just imagine if Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning didn't get blitzed. That would amount in 450 passing yards a game.

Just imagine if Vick had the offensive line of Manning or Brady...

Shiver
11-08-2006, 09:06 PM
Since when does Michael Vick not get blitzed? :roll: This is what happens when people try to formulate an opinion based on statistics and an occasional highlight reel. In-accurate facts are thrown out. You have to watch the games to see what other people are talking about. Three weeks ago, Peter King, who watched the Falcons/Steelers game said the Falcons receivers average about five drops per game. Against the Lions, according the CBS Sportsline blogger covering the game live, nearly half of Vick's incomplete passes were flat out lack of concentration drops.

Now I am not saying discount dropped passes, they happen to every team. It's in the rare circumstances that it becomes contagious, ala the '04 Seattle Seahawks. But, the average team in the NFL has about 2-3 drops per game, the Falcons are double that. Even so; Vick is on pace to put up near 4,000 total yards and 25+ touchdowns.

ricky bobby
11-08-2006, 09:12 PM
I saw the pass that TO dropped on Romo. That was a drop. To be completely honest, i haven't seen that many Falcons games this year. But in the past the fault was not in the recievers it was in Vick taking off out of the pocket way too early. follow my reasoning.

1. Vick has great speed.
2. Defenses respect speed so instead of blitzing Vick they try to at least contain him in the pocket.
3. If a team doesn't blitz you and instead just tries to contain you in the pocket you have all day to throw.

Using logic, you would think that a QB who's legs draw so much attention from the defense would be able to make plays with his arm, But that is not the case with Vick. Therefore you can assume that Vick has a bad arm.

Just imagine if Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning didn't get blitzed. That would amount in 450 passing yards a game.

Just imagine if Vick had the offensive line of Manning or Brady...
First its the recievers then its the Offensive line. :roll: You are just avoiding the real problem - Mike Vick.

"Inaccurate or not, you are in no position to be questioning other people's intelligence."

What kind of idiotic comment is that? If somebody writes something inaccurate i have every right to question the author's intelligence. And if you are implying that i'm unintelligent, look at yourself. You're the nincompoop with elisha cuthbert in your sig. This is a football forum buddy.

frogstomp
11-08-2006, 09:29 PM
First its the recievers then its the Offensive line. :roll: You are just avoiding the real problem - Mike Vick.

"Inaccurate or not, you are in no position to be questioning other people's intelligence."

What kind of idiotic comment is that? If somebody writes something inaccurate i have every right to question the author's intelligence. And if you are implying that i'm unintelligent, look at yourself. You're the nincompoop with elisha cuthbert in your sig. This is a football forum buddy.

I'm sure Shiver knows who said it, but I remember there was someone who said that if it wasn't Michael Vick behind that line, they would have twice as many sacks... and it's true.

As for your intelligence... yes, I was saying you have none.

As for my sig, I happen to be a heterosexual male... what are you?

yodabear
11-08-2006, 09:45 PM
They hired Michael Irvin, thats all the proof I need.

PalmerToCJ
11-08-2006, 10:18 PM
I didn't have much of an opinion of Vick before the Bengals game. I thought he had his good and bad moments.

All I know is that in the Bengals game he looked like freaking Dan Marino with Peter Warricks agility :lol:

Shiver
11-08-2006, 10:27 PM
First its the recievers then its the Offensive line. :roll: You are just avoiding the real problem - Mike Vick.

"Inaccurate or not, you are in no position to be questioning other people's intelligence."

What kind of idiotic comment is that? If somebody writes something inaccurate i have every right to question the author's intelligence. And if you are implying that i'm unintelligent, look at yourself. You're the nincompoop with elisha cuthbert in your sig. This is a football forum buddy.

I'm sure Shiver knows who said it, but I remember there was someone who said that if it wasn't Michael Vick behind that line, they would have twice as many sacks... and it's true.

It was 'Wale Ogunleye, he said if the Falcons "had any other QB" they would've sacked him ten times, instead of twice. Tommie Harris meanwhile, called our interior O-Line "soft."

J-E-T-S Jets Jets Jets
11-08-2006, 11:47 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2652676

Summary
QB rankings

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Bress

So far so good right? But wait it gets better

4. Philip Rivers - Umm yeaahhh the 4rth best in the league
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Mike Vick - If you took away his mobility, he'd be nothing.
7. Marc Bulger
8. Jake Plummer - Wasn't there a QB controversy a week ago?
9. Carson Palmer
10. Tony Romo - He's looked good in his two starts, but come on get real

They go on to rank all the 32 starting QBs. Asside from a couple players who deserve to be higher, ex. Eli Manning, Damon Huard, Rex Grossman, it's pretty good.

The sportsnation rankings are much more accurate.
http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/listranker?id=599
Thats like saying without his laser, rocket arm, Peyton would be nothing. He has his mobility, and it makes him a winning quarterback

Shiver
11-09-2006, 12:06 AM
Exactly, it's not like anyone thinks he is an elite passer. I think he's average, he's not Drew Brees or Marc Bulger, but he's better than Jake Plummer. It just doesn't work to selectively remove a player's attributes, it just doesn't.