Denver Broncos Discussion

[DBNYDP]

Trade Orton for a 3rd.

1st Round: Nick Fairley DT Auburn
2nd Round: Adrian Clayborne DE Iowa
2nd Round: Greg Jones LB Michigan State
3rd Round: Jabal Sheards DE Pittsburgh
3rd Round: Davon House CB New Mexico
6th Round: Coby Fleener TE Stanford
7th Round: Charles Clay FB Tulsa

Free Agency:
Re-Sign Champ
Sign Barry Coffiel
Sigh Eric Weddle
Resign Ryan Harris
Let Dawkins retire

Team:
QB: Tim Tebow/Brady Quinn
HB: Knowshown Moreno/Lance Ball/Lendale White
FB: Charles Clay/Spencer Larsen
WR: Brandon Lloyd/DeMaryious Thomas/Eddie Royal/Jabar Gaffney/Eric Decker/Mathew Willis/Britt Davis
TE: Daniel Graham/Coby Fleener/Richard Quinn
OT: Ryan Clady/Ryan Harris/Chris Clark
G: Chris Kuper/Zane Beadles/Eric Olsen/Stanley Daniels
C: J.D Walton/Jeff Byers

DT: Nick Fairley/Barry Coffiel/Marcus Thomas/Justin Bannan/Kevin Vickerson
DE: Elvis Dumervil/Robert Ayers/Adrian Clayborne/Jabal Sheards
OLB: D.J Williams/Greg Jones/Wesley Woodyard/David Veikune
MLB: Joe Mays
S: Eric Weddle/David Bruton/Darcel McBath/Kyle McCarthy
CB: Champ Bailey/Andre Goodman/Perrish Cox/Davon House/Syndquan Thompson
K: Matt Prater
P: Britton Collquit
LS: Lonnie Paxton

Overall, I think this would cover the pressing offensive needs (Pass Catching TE/FB), while making our defensive considerably better.

Comments?

[Diehard]

Comments?

If we are shifting to a 4-man front (which is what your post seems to indicate), it weakens the argument for going big on DL. IMO, both Ayers and Hunter would do better with their hands down in a 4-3. We'd still want a significant interior presence, so a DT in round 1 would remain the most likely situation, and I could see us picking up another body in the mid rounds.

I certainly don't mind a lot of the moves you're proposing, but some are borderline wishful thinking (e.g. Harris staying). I'm not sure about the safety group - some decent potential, but would have lots to prove.

[DBNYDP]

If we are shifting to a 4-man front (which is what your post seems to indicate), it weakens the argument for going big on DL. IMO, both Ayers and Hunter would do better with their hands down in a 4-3. We'd still want a significant interior presence, so a DT in round 1 would remain the most likely situation, and I could see us picking up another body in the mid rounds.

I certainly don't mind a lot of the moves you're proposing, but some are borderline wishful thinking (e.g. Harris staying). I'm not sure about the safety group - some decent potential, but would have lots to prove.
I just wanted to make sure that we would have a fallback option in case if Doom just flopped as a 4-3 end. I think Ayers will be great in a 4-3, but like I said, insurance policy.
I can't say I've seen Jason Hunter play too much as a 4-3 end.
Originally I had Nevis with our first second.
Any suggestions?
I was thinking signing Doug Free would be our best option if Harris leaves, but personally I would franchise Harris and just see what happens with him.

[Cunningham]

well, it looks like the list of head coaching candidates comes down to this:
eric studesville
perry fewell
dirk koetter
rick dennison
gregg williams
mike mularkey
john fox

it's definitely an uninspiring group, although i wouldn't mind if we end up going with fewell. i think it's fair to say that the team's future is looking bleak at this point.

[Diehard]

it's definitely an uninspiring group, although i wouldn't mind if we end up going with fewell. i think it's fair to say that the team's future is looking bleak at this point.

Nothing like some good ole doomsaying....

Seriously, though, was there a "sexy" hire out there? Gruden or Cowher look like they aren't in play at all, the interim guys in Dallas and Minny got promoted and Rivera's had a number shots at the big chair in various places and for whatever reason hasn't made the cut.

[njx9]

i'd rather go with studesville or dennison and make sure that they find good coordinators. i don't think there's a lot of value in a gregg williams or john fox.

[Cunningham]

Nothing like some good ole doomsaying....

Seriously, though, was there a "sexy" hire out there? Gruden or Cowher look like they aren't in play at all, the interim guys in Dallas and Minny got promoted and Rivera's had a number shots at the big chair in various places and for whatever reason hasn't made the cut.
i'm just saying that with the inexperience of elway/xanders, coupled with the ****** group of players we have right now, it wouldn't be surprising if we really struggle as an organization for the next however many years

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

On a more positive note, Fairley looks amazing tonight. I'd be happy with either one of him or PP.

[DBNYDP]

Another plan...3-4 this time
The Denver Broncos trade Kyle Orton to Arizona for the 69th pick
The Denver Broncos trades #2 of the NFL draft to the Dallas Cowboys in exchange for #9, #41, #73, and a future 2nd

#9: Marcel Dareus DE Alabama
#36: Kyle Rudolph TE Notre Dame
#40: Phil Taylor NT Baylor
#46: Jerrell Powe DE Ole Miss
#67: Kelvin Shepherd ILB LSU
#69: Johnny Patrick CB Louisville
#192: Shaun Chapas FB Georgia
#194: Andrew Fleener TE Stanford

Resign Champ Bailey
Resign Ryan Harris
Sign Paul Soliai
Sign Paul Posluszny
Sign Eric Weddle

QB: Tim Tebow/Brady Quinn
RB: Knowshown Moreno/Lance Ball/Lendale White
FB: Shaun Chapas/Spencer Larsen
WR: Brandon Lloyd/Jabar Gaffney/DeMaryious Thomas//Eddie Royal/Eric Decker/Britt Davis or Matthew Willis
TE: Kyle Rudolph/Andrew Fleener/Richard Quinn
RT: Ryan Harris
RG: Chris Kuper/Stanley Daniels
C: J.D Walton/Jeff Byers
LG: Zane Beadles/Eric Olsen
LT: Ryan Clady/Chris Clark

RDE: Marcus Thomas/Marcel Dareus
NT: Paul Soliai/Phil Taylor/Jamal Williams
LDE: Justin Bannan/Kevin Vickerson/Jerrell Powe
ROLB: Elvis Dumervil/Wesley Woodyard
RILB: D.J Williams/Paul Posluszny
LILB: Joe Mays/Kelvin Shepherd
LOLB: Robert Ayers/Mario Haggan
CB: Champ Bailey/Johnny Patrick
CB: Andre Goodman/Perrish Cox
NCB: Syd'Quan Thompson/Cassius Vaughn
FS: Eric Weddle/Darcel McBath
SS: David Bruton/Kyle McCarthy

K: Matt Prater
P: Britton Colquitt
LS: Lonnie Paxton

[njx9]

i don't care what else happens, kyle rudolph is a horrible pick. not quite on the clarett level, but certainly on the quinn level.

[jCut]

i don't care what else happens, kyle rudolph is a horrible pick. not quite on the clarett level, but certainly on the quinn level.

I wouldn't go that far. At least Rudolph can play. I don't think most people even knew who Quinn was. And still don't.

[Timbathia]

I wouldn't go that far. At least Rudolph can play. I don't think most people even knew who Quinn was. And still don't.

I guess TE and OL are both offensive positions that need help (whether Harris leaves or not) and drafting someone of good value wouldnt upset me (no more Beadles-type reaches please). Nowhere near as big a need as everywhere on the defense though.

[njx9]

we have no business drafting yet another TE who will have an extremely limited role in the offense, when nearly every other position on the team could just use warm bodies. we might as well draft devlin in the second. i mean, we need a second string qb, right?

[Timbathia]

we have no business drafting yet another TE who will have an extremely limited role in the offense, when nearly every other position on the team could just use warm bodies. we might as well draft devlin in the second. i mean, we need a second string qb, right?

This is the unknown of course, as we really dont know what kind of an offense we will run next year.

If I were running an offense with Tebow at the helm, then a quality TE (who can hold his ground, block downfield, act as a reliable safety valve, catch screen passes and catch downfield) would figure very highly on my list of needs.

[jCut]

I think we could definitely use a TE, as Graham is just an overpaid swing tackle and Quinn / Gronkowski are garbage. But, with the amount of holes on our defense, I will not advocate taking one with a high draft pick.

[njx9]

there isn't a TE in the draft who will take over for graham on running downs. therefore, limited role.

unless you're right timbathia (i mean about the scheme in general), and we installed a spread or similar, with far less blocking at the spot.

a second round pick should simply not be wasted on a safety valve for an offense that, outside of my feelings for moreno, shouldn't be getting much help in this draft (and if it does, it should be along the line). unless, of course, we plan on turning into the old colts, and just not bothering with that side of the ball at all.

further still, there's a relatively tremendous list of potential free agent tight ends who would fit the receiver role very well. rudolph is not gates, he's not gonzalez, and really, anything short of that is better addressed in free agency. especially for a non-vital position (unless, of course, New Coach somehow throws more TE screens than mcidiot did).

[DBNYDP]

Our offense needs to be more efficient, having an every-down TE helps. If Tebow is going to be the future of this team, drafting an every-down TE helps. Graham is not very good, and is overpaid, should be cut. Grownkowski has done ****. Quinn is strictly a blocker.
The defense gets improved in the draft by bringing a lot of youth and talent on the team. I don't like think any other player in the draft would be available at that position that would have a better impact than Rudolph.
Overpaying for a TE like Marcedes Lewis or Owen Daniels this offseason isn't smart. We can't fill every hole on defense this year, that is just a stupid sentiment. A lot of the positions aren't very deep in this draft, and we should just be patient for next year.
This team is a middle of the pack offense as well..so really..it does need help (not as much as the defense, and as you can see I mostly devote the draft to defense, and the FA to defense)

[njx9]

who's overpaying for free agent tes? further, there are a bunch of mid-tier guys who would be just as effective in a short passing game. but yeah... a te.

i like the silly idea that i'm suggesting we can fill all of our holes on defense in one draft. it's unlikely we could fill them in 8 drafts. again, does that mean we should draft pat devlin in the second? we still desperately need a backup qb. nearly any of the NT prospects should be available around there, and that's typically, imo, a much better area to get value for a 34 DE than wasting a top 10 pick on one.

[DBNYDP]

I don't get what the problem is.
I get two defensive ends, and a NT in this draft.
Draft a CB who I really like. Draft an ILB who can hit/lead.
Sign a proven NT.
Sign a good linebacker.
And a pretty good free safety.

I think we do a pretty good job on improving the defense in the draft. 3-4 ends in the 1st aren't always a waste, some have been huge beasts ala Haloti Ngata
Brady Quinn is one of the better backup QBs, then grab a guy as an UDFA to come and be #3...I don't put backup QB on the same level as a starting TE who has the potential to be a Pro Bowler...

[Timbathia]

I don't get what the problem is.
I get two defensive ends, and a NT in this draft.
Draft a CB who I really like. Draft an ILB who can hit/lead.
Sign a proven NT.
Sign a good linebacker.
And a pretty good free safety.

I think we do a pretty good job on improving the defense in the draft. 3-4 ends in the 1st aren't always a waste, some have been huge beasts ala Haloti Ngata
Brady Quinn is one of the better backup QBs, then grab a guy as an UDFA to come and be #3...I don't put backup QB on the same level as a starting TE who has the potential to be a Pro Bowler...

I think possibly another problem we may have this year is signing free agents. I mean, who the **** is going to want to come and play for us this season?

[njx9]

I don't get what the problem is.
I get two defensive ends, and a NT in this draft.
Draft a CB who I really like. Draft an ILB who can hit/lead.
Sign a proven NT.
Sign a good linebacker.
And a pretty good free safety.

dareus is overpriced at 9, arguments with jimmy about his value notwithstanding.

soliai is another haynesworth. i'd be shocked if he bothered producing once he has a new contract (since he never bothered with it before his contract year).

posluszny is depth. which is sad, given who he'd be backing up. but whatever, it'd be better than what we have now.

i'd argue that taking one of the interior OL would be a FAR better use of the pick, and might actually improve our running game (the part of our offense that hasn't worked in two years). tebow did just fine for a rookie who should've needed another 2 years of prep time without a TE, and he'd continue to do so. moreno, otoh, has shown that he's utterly incapable of doing anything other than running through gaping holes. since we probably won't replace him, it'd be a better use of our time to start working on making those holes.

I think we do a pretty good job on improving the defense in the draft. 3-4 ends in the 1st aren't always a waste, some have been huge beasts ala Haloti Ngata

sure, but i said top ten.

Brady Quinn is one of the better backup QBs

LOLWUT

brady quinn is the worst quarterback on any roster in the nfl, period. he makes me long for the days of patrick ramsey throwing the ball 50 feet straight up in the air. i'd rather bring rod smith out of retirement to play backup qb again, than let brady quinn some anywhere near having to go under center.

I don't put backup QB on the same level as a starting TE who has the potential to be a Pro Bowler...

the potential to be a pro bowler? stop it. knowshon moreno has the "potential" to be a pro bowler. and again, rudolph likely wouldn't start, as he'd still be, at best, the third best blocking TE on the team by a fairly wide margin.

[Diehard]

It looks to me like it is down to Rick Dennison, Dirk Koetter and John Fox. I'd have to think Fox is the favorite, given his coaching experience... but it sounds like the other two both impressed during the interviews.

As for TE, I like Lance Kendricks from Wisconsin if he falls to the middle rounds. The guy can block and catch.

[DBNYDP]

Rudolph is pretty good blocker, and he is a good receiver...
Jason Witten type player.

Ngata was a high pick, not exactly top 10 but it was pretty close..Dareus is a really great player, I have no clue why you are so down on him. His experience/talent makes him a very valuable player, most drafts have him going around there.
Our line this year was totally out of sync, with several different starting combinations. Once the line was more or less set, the running game improved as evidence by Moreno's success (averaging 5 YAC the last 5 games of the year?
Beadles/Kuper/Walton are fine on the interior, and Beadles/Walton are going to continue to get better. The linemen in this draft are very unimpressive, and I wouldn't jump to take any of them. Soliai is a solid player, I say sign him to a shorter term deal so he is more of a stop gap till Phil Taylor becomes the starter.

[njx9]

beadles will kick out to RT (i sincerely hope i'm wrong. if he doesn't, we need a RT), kuper is garbage and has been for a while. soliai has had one decent year and has been on the verge of getting cut every other year he's been in the nfl. and moreno sure looked good against houston. and oakland.

[jCut]

I think we need to bring in a respected defensive mind. I'm hoping for John Fox!

[DBNYDP]

beadles will kick out to RT (i sincerely hope i'm wrong. if he doesn't, we need a RT), kuper is garbage and has been for a while. soliai has had one decent year and has been on the verge of getting cut every other year he's been in the nfl. and moreno sure looked good against houston. and oakland.
Beadles would be terrible at RT, he will get abused by speed rusher. Kuper is fine, he was one of the best performers on our line this year. I think Harris comes back, if not I'll take Free, Clabo or the guy for NO.
I'm not saying overpay Soliai, but I think we can get him at a reasonable price in a short term contract. If not we only need a guy to rotate with Jamal and keep him fresh. Worst comes to worst, Powe can rotate into the NT position too..
Moreno looked great against the Chiefs. The running game has looked fine when people have been healthy (sadly that is the biggest problem..)

Daniel Graham has cost this team. He has had some costly drops where the pass has been fine and he has just dropped it. He has been slow, and has had trouble getting down and blocking. And even when he is there to make the block, he isn't amazing anymore. I like Quinn's blocking enough to make him our blocking TE, he is better than Graham at this point. Rudolph adds an every down TE, who is still a great blocker.
I'd consider taking a safety/CB/OLB at Rudolph's position, and I'm not sure we get the best value there (CB isn't a huge position of need in my opinion). I don't like any linemen enough to take them there, the whole class is just terrible in that area.

[Jimmy]

Fox is our guy.

[njx9]

i'm not really all that excited. although i'm not quite as nervous as i was two years ago.

[bigbluedefense]

i'm not really all that excited. although i'm not quite as nervous as i was two years ago.

As a Giants fan who has been a Fox supporter for a long long time, I'm jealous. Fox is a great HC, you guys got one hell of a coach.

I was hoping he'd be the heir to Coughlin, but now that's no longer an option.

[njx9]

As a Giants fan who has been a Fox supporter for a long long time, I'm jealous. Fox is a great HC, you guys got one hell of a coach.

I was hoping he'd be the heir to Coughlin, but now that's no longer an option.

why is that? i don't know much about him other than that he's had really, really sporadic success in carolina.

[bigbluedefense]

why is that? i don't know much about him other than that he's had really, really sporadic success in carolina.

He was an incredible DC for the Giants. Our Spagnuolo of the late 90s. He's also done an incredible job with that Panther organization. Let's be real, while he had ok talent there, the talent on those Panthers teams never stood out on paper. He squeezed every drop he could out of those teams.

That 08 team that was the 2 seed? Come on. They rode a run game, Steve Smith, and a middle tier defense all the way to the 2 seed.

The reason why he was inconsistent is bc in this league, talent lends to consistency. You can be a flash in the pan, win more than you should and overachieve every other year with good coaching, but if you want consistent success, you need talent. And a good qb. And the Panthers in my opinion, were mediocre in both those areas.

Fox is widely respected amongst league circles. NFL guys know the real deal. They know far more than we know. For Fox to have the type of respect he has amongst organizations says a lot about what kind of football coach he is.

You guys have one hell of a coach. Congrats. I'd be lying to you if I said I wasn't jealous.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

Even if his success continues to be sporadic, I'd much rather have sporadic success than constant failure. So he's a definite upgrade over McD.

[njx9]

He was an incredible DC for the Giants. Our Spagnuolo of the late 90s. He's also done an incredible job with that Panther organization. Let's be real, while he had ok talent there, the talent on those Panthers teams never stood out on paper. He squeezed every drop he could out of those teams.

That 08 team that was the 2 seed? Come on. They rode a run game, Steve Smith, and a middle tier defense all the way to the 2 seed.

The reason why he was inconsistent is bc in this league, talent lends to consistency. You can be a flash in the pan, win more than you should and overachieve every other year with good coaching, but if you want consistent success, you need talent. And a good qb. And the Panthers in my opinion, were mediocre in both those areas.

Fox is widely respected amongst league circles. NFL guys know the real deal. They know far more than we know. For Fox to have the type of respect he has amongst organizations says a lot about what kind of football coach he is.

You guys have one hell of a coach. Congrats. I'd be lying to you if I said I wasn't jealous.

awesome, thanks man. i'd actually completely forgotten where he came from.

Even if his success continues to be sporadic, I'd much rather have sporadic success than constant failure. So he's a definite upgrade over McD.

i certainly wasn't trying to imply that. i dunno. the idea of spagnuolo last year had me excited. fox just didn't inspire that. though taking bbd's post into consideration, i feel a bit better.

[Diehard]

Fox is our guy.

Doesn't surprise me at all and it's a good move for the team.

Apparently, he's been rounding up his coaching staff today. Sounds like Jim Mora Jr. is the leader for the DC spot and we may end up retaining McCoy.

[jCut]

Great news. I'm relieved that Dennison didn't get the job solely on his "roots" here in Denver. Retaining McCoy makes me a bit nervous, though. But I think this takes the speculation out of which defensive system we will run, as Fox has always used the 43. Quite successfully I might add. I have to admit, I am very excited for the future now.

[njx9]

i'm guessing this makes bowers the pick and pretty well eliminates the peterson/dareus argument.

[Cunningham]

yea, this is definitely good news. anyone have info on his contract numbers?

[DBNYDP]

I don't know.
Fox said that he is willing to use the 3-4 in Denver.
Just saying.
I wonder who is the offensive coordinator now, and I really hope we don't get DeAngelo Williams.

[Timbathia]

I don't know.
Fox said that he is willing to use the 3-4 in Denver.
Just saying.
I wonder who is the offensive coordinator now, and I really hope we don't get DeAngelo Williams.

While he may have said he was willing, he is now officially the most knowledgeable defensive mind in the Broncos organization (and by a long way). If Elway, etc. are smart they will let Fox do whatever the heck he wants on that side of the ball, no matter what their preferences are.

[njx9]

I really hope we don't get DeAngelo Williams.

why? he'd be far better than anything we have.

[jCut]

I like DeAngelo, but there are legitimate questions about his durability. We would probably have to give up a high draft pick, and he's just not worth it.

[njx9]

I like DeAngelo, but there are legitimate questions about his durability. We would probably have to give up a high draft pick, and he's just not worth it.

why would we give up any draft pick? i was pretty sure he was udfa at the end of the season.

[Diehard]

why would we give up any draft pick? i was pretty sure he was udfa at the end of the season.

The talk I've heard from some Panthers fans is that they'll franchise and then try to trade him. There are a number of problems with that:

1. The CBA chaos may make that impossible
2. Trading a player who is not under contract is a lot trickier, due to the negotiation of a new contract as part of the trade
3. Carolina's ownership is very stingy... I don't see them wanting to be stuck with paying out the franchise tag $$$ if a trade can't be worked out

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Williams isn't really a "complementary" back to Knowshon, but he's a good player and the extra firepower wouldn't hurt.

[njx9]

i tend to think he's a replacement back, more than anything =P

really, i'm guessing that the franchise designation drastically changes in the offseason. i'm not sure either side really likes it all that much.

[Jimmy]

and I really hope we don't get DeAngelo Williams.

Deangelo Williams is a 1,400+ yard back when healthy. There. I said it.

I'm all for hauling the dude in. 2 times the player slowshon is.

[diabsoule]

Do you guys think there is a possibility that Robert Quinn could be the pick at #2? He seems to fit a position of need and can project to a 3-4 or 4-3.

[njx9]

Do you guys think there is a possibility that Robert Quinn could be the pick at #2? He seems to fit a position of need and can project to a 3-4 or 4-3.

personally, i don't think he's worth a pick that high. i'm also unsure what need he'd fit in a 34.

[jCut]

Do you guys think there is a possibility that Robert Quinn could be the pick at #2? He seems to fit a position of need and can project to a 3-4 or 4-3.

I think he would have to blow up the combine for us to take him that high. But, I think it is possible. He might be the best pass-rusher in the draft, which says a lot.

[DBNYDP]

why? he'd be far better than anything we have.
He is about to fall apart.
Plus money..

He's been a workhorse and he has absolutely been run down.

[crossroads]

He is about to fall apart.
Plus money..

He's been a workhorse and he has absolutely been run down.

A workhorse? He's only had more than 250 carries once, and only over 200 carries in a season twice. He's only had 841 carries in 5 seasons. He's been far from run down.

[DBNYDP]

A workhorse? He's only had more than 250 carries once, and only over 200 carries in a season twice. He's only had 841 carries in 5 seasons. He's been far from run down.
969 carries in college as well.
He's reaching the age when most running backs break down. Add in the fact that we are going to have to pay him a good deal to come...
I rather get a cheaper/younger guy in FA or the draft.

[njx9]

??? he'll be 28 when the season starts (if it starts). i'd rather take three productive years out of a proven running back than let xanders draft another one. because that worked out well.

[DBNYDP]

He'll cost too much. Hightower will be cheaper.
McDermott is the new DC prob.

[njx9]

and hightower is substantially worse. as much as i, too , would like us to sign numerous veterans who will contribute nothing...

[Timbathia]

i'm guessing this makes bowers the pick and pretty well eliminates the peterson/dareus argument.

I think I at the point now where I would be happy with Fairley or Bowers. This is still a bad year to get the second pick, but I think these are the two guys most worth taking a punt on based on where we are. Everyone else would be a bad idea in my mind.

[njx9]

i'm still on peterson. i think he's clearly the BPA in the draft, and when you need talent at every position on defense....

that said, if we shift to a 43 look, i'm ok with bowers or fairley. i don't like either in a 34 look.

[Cunningham]

I think I at the point now where I would be happy with Fairley or Bowers. This is still a bad year to get the second pick, but I think these are the two guys most worth taking a punt on based on where we are. Everyone else would be a bad idea in my mind.
agreed with taking fairley or bowers, but i think this is far from a bad year to have the second overall pick. imagine if we were in the same situation, except replace this year's class with the class of '09. that would defnitely be a no-win situation.

[Cunningham]

i'm still on peterson. i think he's clearly the BPA in the draft, and when you need talent at every position on defense....

that said, if we shift to a 43 look, i'm ok with bowers or fairley. i don't like either in a 34 look.
i think it's pretty much a given that we'll switch to a 43, considering fox's background and our reported interest in mora and mcdermott

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

I'd be happy with either PP or Fairley. Disappointed with anyone else. Also I don't mind the move to the 4-3 much at all. If you look at our front 7, it's probly gonna benefit both DJ Williams and Robert Ayers. It's gonna hurt Doom, but only slightly, as he's proven he can get the sacks any way he wants. Yeah he'll suffer in run support, but as of now, so will our entire D so whatever.

[njx9]

i think it's pretty much a given that we'll switch to a 43, considering fox's background and our reported interest in mora and mcdermott

all reports i've seen indicate that we'll stick with a 34 flavor, but that it'll be more of a hybrid (doom will have his hand in the dirt at times).

[Diehard]

all reports i've seen indicate that we'll stick with a 34 flavor, but that it'll be more of a hybrid (doom will have his hand in the dirt at times).

We kept Nunnelly as DL coach, which is a signal that the 3-4 will still be in effect to some degree. Other coaching appointments:

OC - Mike McCoy
OL - Dave Magazu
TE - Clancy Barone
RB - Eric Studesville
WR - Tyke Tolbert
Off Quality Control - Brian Callahan

DL - Wayne Nunnelly
Def Quality Control - Jay Rodgers

Jim Skipper (RB, Running game coordinator in Carolina) is rumored to be coming (maybe AHC?) and from what I've heard it sounds like Adam Gase will move from WR's to QB coach. Both would be good moves.

DC looks to be either McDermott from Philly or Mora Jr. Either one is significantly more legit than Wink.

[crossroads]

I really don't like McDermott, but I imagine he'd be running John Fox's schemes and not his own, so it might not be too bad. Also it should be noted that Magazu is a zone blocking guy, so it looks like we'll be a zone blocking team again.

[Diehard]

I really don't like McDermott, but I imagine he'd be running John Fox's schemes and not his own, so it might not be too bad.

No question that Fox will strongly influence the D, which would probably be good for a young guy like McDermott. We'll see how it plays out.

Also it should be noted that Magazu is a zone blocking guy, so it looks like we'll be a zone blocking team again.

Carolina has run a mix of things the last few years. However, I believe Fox mentioned the return of a strong zone approach during one of his media sessions. I think that's a good thing. Not so much zone running, but the focus on doing a few things well. Commit to a certain approach. Repetition helps execution. This was an area of weakness under McD. Hopefully that will change.

[Cunningham]

sorry for being out of the loop on this, but does anyone know how free agency will work with the current cba issues? will there be any signings before a new one is worked out?

[Timbathia]

I really don't like McDermott, but I imagine he'd be running John Fox's schemes and not his own, so it might not be too bad. Also it should be noted that Magazu is a zone blocking guy, so it looks like we'll be a zone blocking team again.

McDermott gone to Carolina.

[jCut]

Denver Post is reporting that Jim Mora will likely be named the new DC.

[Diehard]

sorry for being out of the loop on this, but does anyone know how free agency will work with the current cba issues? will there be any signings before a new one is worked out?

My understanding (which may be flawed) is that there is basically no trading of players or unrestricted FA until a new CBA is in place.

[njx9]

My understanding (which may be flawed) is that there is basically no trading of players or unrestricted FA until a new CBA is in place.

pretty sure this is correct. teams can only trade draft picks for draft picks.

[D-Unit]

What do you guys think of Amakumara?

[njx9]

What do you guys think of Amakumara?

thumbs down. i was really underwhelmed in every nebraska game i saw. if we go DB in the first, it should be peterson. i'd like amukamara's value around 20-25. *shrug*

[Morton]

But Amukamara has been nothing but a shutdown corner for Nebraska this year. How can you not be impressed by him?

[njx9]

because he hasn't been anything close to shutdown in any game i've seen him play in. he's played from behind receivers, he hasn't made plays that a top corner should make, he's looked... stiff, i guess? that's not the right word for what i'm thinking of.

i'm pretty sure jimmy posted some stuff a few pages back with a better description.

[Timbathia]

it may be a long time before we get a DC if we wait around to talk to Trgovac.

[crossroads]

it may be a long time before we get a DC if we wait around to talk to Trgovac.

Can't they talk to coaches on the superbowl teams during the bye week this week?

[Timbathia]

Can't they talk to coaches on the superbowl teams during the bye week this week?

Not completely sure of the rules, but I definitely read on espn that we have to wait until the Packers season is over.

[Diehard]

Can't they talk to coaches on the superbowl teams during the bye week this week?

They can interview during that bye week, but couldn't finalize anything until the season is over.

[njx9]

don't they still need the team's permission? which, i'd imagine, isn't real easy to get.

[Diehard]

don't they still need the team's permission? which, i'd imagine, isn't real easy to get.

Yes, you'd need to get permission first.

[Diehard]

After further research, I may be wrong. Those rules may only apply to filling HC vacancies.


As there is an urgency to hire new head coaches for some non-playoff teams, the NFL does allow teams to request permission to interview a postseason participant's assistants during the wild card week for teams who have the bye that week. They can also request permission to do so during the first week of Super Bowl preparations as long as there is a two-week break between the conference championships and the Super Bowl. The team only has one chance to talk to the assistant coach, once permission is granted, before the coach's team is eliminated from the playoffs.


If it is only HC's, then we'll have to wait until after the Superbowl.

[Cunningham]

i'm keeping an eye on greg jones this week during the senior bowl. definitely seems like a potential pick for us in round 2.

[VoiceofReason]

dennis allen was named defensive coordinator on monday.. thoughts?

he was previously on the saints as the secondary coach, not to mention the saints were 4th in pass d. and tuesday ron milus (secondary) and richard smith (linebackers) were also signed onto the staff.

i wonder what this means for the whole 43/34 scheme?

[njx9]

i said this in the other thread, but it means i want peterson even more now.

[jCut]

i said this in the other thread, but it means i want peterson even more now.

With all of the front-seven talent on the board, why go corner?

[njx9]

With all of the front-seven talent on the board, why go corner?

fairley is the only guy worth a top two pick for us. in a 43 look, we don't need a backup DE (behind ayers and doom), and you don't spend a top 2 pick on a 2 down defender. especially with the glut of 34 teams, getting good value at both the DE and the LB spots should be relatively easy later. there are no other DTs remotely worth a top 2 pick. further, when your team is this bad and you need every single defensive position (let's stop pretending that our cornerback position is any good even if champ comes back), you take the BPA. that's peterson, at this point (of course that may change over the next couple of months).

already mentioned bowers and fairley, but dareus took most of the year off, had one big game and suddenly we have to take him. that doesn't sound like every major DL bust ever. quinn didn't even play this year. there isn't a linebacker remotely worth our pick (unless, maybe, we stuck with a 34, but again, he'd be a backup at best).

from there, you can likely get a clayborn or bailey kind of player in the second, when the value matches with the draft position. same with any of the linebackers.

meanwhile, we either address CB in the first, or we spend a year hoping bailey comes back so we don't have to start syd'quan and goodman all year.

[Diehard]

i wonder what this means for the whole 43/34 scheme?

My guess: we'll run 4 man fronts (vs run/pass) and some 3-3-5 looks (mainly vs pass). Even though the 3-3-5 has 3 DL, it doesn't require the same kind of skillset as the rare-and-mysterious 3-4 NT. A 4-3 DT who can get some push on the pocket would be just fine.

To make this work, I suspect we'll be looking for some DB's who can tackle and DL who can rush the passer.

[Timbathia]

My guess: we'll run 4 man fronts (vs run/pass) and some 3-3-5 looks (mainly vs pass). Even though the 3-3-5 has 3 DL, it doesn't require the same kind of skillset as the rare-and-mysterious 3-4 NT. A 4-3 DT who can get some push on the pocket would be just fine.

To make this work, I suspect we'll be looking for some DB's who can tackle and DL who can rush the passer.

Gee it would be nice to have someone who could rush the passer besides Doom.

Trivia question - who is the only Bronco (besides Doom) to have more than 5.5 sacks in a season since 2004 (when Reggie Hayward had 10.5)?

[njx9]

i think ayers will do fine when he's finally back in the position he should've been playing for the last two years if the worst gm combo in the league hadn't drafted him to play in the 34.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

Gee it would be nice to have someone who could rush the passer besides Doom.

Trivia question - who is the only Bronco (besides Doom) to have more than 5.5 sacks in a season since 2004 (when Reggie Hayward had 10.5)?

Bertrand Berry?

[Timbathia]

Bertrand Berry?

No, his 11.5 sacks in 2003 earned him a ticket straight out of Denver.

[njx9]

i would've guessed 'trick question' because i think berry was pre-heyward.

EDIT: I was wrong. but it is a trick question, as there were 2.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

No, his 11.5 sacks in 2003 earned him a ticket straight out of Denver.

Dang. I knew he was around there, missed him by a year I guess.

It couldn't be that you just read the career total by mistake instead of a season and you mean Jarvis Moss, right? No, because he has 3.5. Wow. Just realized how unbelievably pathetic that is. I'm stumped. Trevor Pryce? Just checked and nope. Damn.

[Chris]

(A) Bowers wouldn't be playing behind Ayers if he was selected at #2 overall. I'm sort of baffled by comments like this. What has Ayers ever proved for this team on the field so far? Do you think when the staff is evaluating the players, he is listed as an irreplaceable starter? Get real.

(B) Dareus might not be worth it at #2, but if we needed a tackle on the inside, he fills the void. He played through the whole year with an injury and did quite well, and when he was healthy again he dominated.

(C) Xanders has already said we are going to take the BPA at a position of need. My guess is that it is going to be a front seven player. I would be absolutely fine with Peterson, but if Fairley goes #1, Denver is probably going to do their best to trade down or select one of the higher rated DL playrs before the run on top tier DL starts.

[Timbathia]

Dang. I knew he was around there, missed him by a year I guess.

It couldn't be that you just read the career total by mistake instead of a season and you mean Jarvis Moss, right? No, because he has 3.5. Wow. Just realized how unbelievably pathetic that is. I'm stumped. Trevor Pryce? Just checked and nope. Damn.

Actually the career totals would be interesting over that period (and by interesting I mean pathetic). The guy I am asking about may actually have the second highest number of sacks by a Bronco over the past 7 years.

It really highlights how pathetic we have been at rushing the passer for the past 7 years. Everyone in the other forums keeps spouting off about how Doom will be no good to us when we go back to the 4-3, but truth be told when playing in a 4-3 he is light years ahead of anyone else we have had since the days of Pryce and Berry.

[Chris]

Elvis was able to produce with nobody around him in a 4-3. He probably won't do as well as he did in the 3-4, but whatever.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

Actually the career totals would be interesting over that period (and by interesting I mean pathetic). The guy I am asking about may actually have the second highest number of sacks by a Bronco over the past 7 years.

It really highlights how pathetic we have been at rushing the passer for the past 7 years. Everyone in the other forums keeps spouting off about how Doom will be no good to us when we go back to the 4-3, but truth be told when playing in a 4-3 he is light years ahead of anyone else we have had since the days of Pryce and Berry.

Ebenezer Ekuban!

[Timbathia]

Elvis was able to produce with nobody around him in a 4-3. He probably won't do as well as he did in the 3-4, but whatever.

17 sacks is pretty much out of the question, but 10 to 12 is certainly realistic.

[Timbathia]

Ebenezer Ekuban!

Nice! Who would have thought a Brownco would be our second best pass rusher over the past 7 years.

[njx9]

Ebenezer Ekuban!

the alternate answer was kenard lang, fwiw.

(A) Bowers wouldn't be playing behind Ayers if he was selected at #2 overall. I'm sort of baffled by comments like this. What has Ayers ever proved for this team on the field so far? Do you think when the staff is evaluating the players, he is listed as an irreplaceable starter? Get real.

ayers was a 43 end when he came out, it was only due to mcdaniels idiocy that he had to play out of position. given that he was relatively highly rated, i have to imagine they want to give him a chance.

to be fair, this is partially based on my being unimpressed with bowers. at 6-10? i think he'd be a good pick. i'd think the same about dareus. but pretty much every DL this year just screams massive bust to me. fairley is an idiot on the field, as disruptive as he is. i think dareus is lazy. meh.

i think, in all likelihood, i'm completely wrong when it comes to draft day. but all of those players make me really nervous at 2.

[Timbathia]

the alternate answer was kenard lang, fwiw.



ayers was a 43 end when he came out, it was only due to mcdaniels idiocy that he had to play out of position. given that he was relatively highly rated, i have to imagine they want to give him a chance.

to be fair, this is partially based on my being unimpressed with bowers. at 6-10? i think he'd be a good pick. i'd think the same about dareus. but pretty much every DL this year just screams massive bust to me. fairley is an idiot on the field, as disruptive as he is. i think dareus is lazy. meh.

i think, in all likelihood, i'm completely wrong when it comes to draft day. but all of those players make me really nervous at 2.

Good call - forgot about Lang. I suppose it doesnt change the basic premise in that we are ******* hopeless at sacking people.

As long as we can get a legit DLine starter at the start of the second, I have no issue with Peterson at #2. Add in a legit LB starter with the Dolphins pick in the mid second, and we are in much better shape. I suppose the main unknown is how aggressive Fox will be in FA, as that could shape the draft more than anything.

[DBNYDP]

I think it makes a lot of sense to play Bowers + Ayers every down and use Doom as a situational pass rusher. Kick Bowers in on that play.

[Chris]

ayers was a 43 end when he came out, it was only due to mcdaniels idiocy that he had to play out of position. given that he was relatively highly rated, i have to imagine they want to give him a chance.

He was rated as a player who had that versatility to play in either scheme, and we just so happened to run a 34. His transition came with some growing pains. Could he start at LDE for us and be successful? Quite possibly. I think he will more than likely get that opportunity. Can he be upgraded over? Absolutely.

to be fair, this is partially based on my being unimpressed with bowers. at 6-10? i think he'd be a good pick. i'd think the same about dareus. but pretty much every DL this year just screams massive bust to me. fairley is an idiot on the field, as disruptive as he is. i think dareus is lazy. meh.

The conundrum in all of this is that Denver fans have pined for DL over the past five drafts and haven't gotten their wish, yet when they are in the chance to take several premium players at the position, fans start getting overly critical about them because we are selecting so high.

The pressure is on, no doubt, to get a quality player at the #2 selection. Where we select the player in my eyes is irrelevant, they just have to pan out. Moving down and acquiring more picks doesn't lessen the risk of who we take, wherever it is in the top ten. It just helps compensate for the potential bust ratio of that prospect.

i think, in all likelihood, i'm completely wrong when it comes to draft day. but all of those players make me really nervous at 2.

Everyone makes me nervous at #2 to be quite honest, and hopefully we can sucker a trade down and still land Bowers, Dareus or Peterson thereafter. (I'm guessing Fairley goes #1)

In all honesty, I would not be surprised if Peterson ends up being the pick. The Broncos might be confident enough in some of that DL talent being there in round two and could wait until then, but hopefully they don't.

I think it makes a lot of sense to play Bowers + Ayers every down and use Doom as a situational pass rusher. Kick Bowers in on that play.

Dumervil is not going to be a situational player for us with the contract he signed. If we are able to get a quality DT inside, it is going to help him out tremendously.

If Bowers was drafted, I would start him at LDE and have Dumervil at RDE. Ayers could kick it in on passing downs. I think that makes the most sense, especially for the type of defense Fox has been known to run.

All and all, the Broncos would have to be ******** to **** this pick up.

[njx9]

The conundrum in all of this is that Denver fans have pined for DL over the past five drafts and haven't gotten their wish, yet when they are in the chance to take several premium players at the position, fans start getting overly critical about them because we are selecting so high.

The pressure is on, no doubt, to get a quality player at the #2 selection. Where we select the player in my eyes is irrelevant, they just have to pan out. Moving down and acquiring more picks doesn't lessen the risk of who we take, wherever it is in the top ten. It just helps compensate for the potential bust ratio of that prospect.


fully agree, i laugh at myself after looking at the last few years' worth of posts, to this year. but i think you hit it right on: we just can't afford to break on the pick. and i don't see a guy i think is 'safe' enough (whatever that may mean). which is why i'd be ok after a trade down, as you say, it would likely replace a few higher picks so that if guy A fails, well, maybe guys B & C will still be pretty good.

[bigbluedefense]

I like the staff Fox put together.

I reiterate my jealousy of your coaching staff.

[DBNYDP]

Best player should play
Doom is a great pass rusher, we know this. But he has never been good against the run. Ayers + Bowers are two everydown DE. Personally if Doom gets 12-15 sacks this year (not that hard to imagine even if he is a situational pass rusher) then he is playing his contract for me.
We simply cannot play a guy simply because of his contract if he is going to hurt us on the run game.
Maybe Fox fixes him up, but until Doom can stop the run as a 4-3 DE, he is not going to be a very good DE.

[njx9]

could doom actually not play the run, or was he being blown out by 2-3 defenders because the offense didn't have to bother with our DTs? or was he being asked to play a dwight freeney role?

put someone else worth blocking on that line/defense and i think doom would do all right.


pipedream: can we please, please move DJ back to WLB?

[Chris]

Best player should play
Doom is a great pass rusher, we know this. But he has never been good against the run. Ayers + Bowers are two everydown DE. Personally if Doom gets 12-15 sacks this year (not that hard to imagine even if he is a situational pass rusher) then he is playing his contract for me.
We simply cannot play a guy simply because of his contract if he is going to hurt us on the run game.
Maybe Fox fixes him up, but until Doom can stop the run as a 4-3 DE, he is not going to be a very good DE.

Teams were still running to Dumervil's side as a 3-4 OLB and doing it with success. Upgrade the interior of our defensive line and that will help alleviate the problem.

[Timbathia]

Teams were still running to Dumervil's side as a 3-4 OLB and doing it with success. Upgrade the interior of our defensive line and that will help alleviate the problem.

It didnt help that Doom had Kenny Peterson as the DE on his side. If Doom is the only weak link in the run game we will be fine.

[DBNYDP]

I think we'll be fine but he would be a good pickup (Bowers).
I'm a huge fan of Dareus right now too..much better pick than Peterson IMO.

[jCut]

pipedream: can we please, please move DJ back to WLB?

I would say that is likely. I would expect for us to draft or sign a MLB.

[Cunningham]

i'm starting to lean towards taking martez wilson in the second if he's there. greg jones had a disappointing senior bowl week and he's looking more like a mid-round type of guy, same goes for quan sturdivant. there's some good potential free agents, but i doubt any of them actually hit free agency.

[Timbathia]

i'm starting to lean towards taking martez wilson in the second if he's there. greg jones had a disappointing senior bowl week and he's looking more like a mid-round type of guy, same goes for quan sturdivant. there's some good potential free agents, but i doubt any of them actually hit free agency.

In some ways our biggest problem is going to be our LBs next season with our current roster. Ayers, Bannan, Thomas and Doom actually makes me much, much more comfortable than DJ, Mays and Haggan (who all look on paper like our starting 4-3 front 7). Mays and Haggan are huge liabilities in coverage, and it sounds like we will play a lot of cover-2, cover-3, zone stuff next season.

[Namy]

As long as the Broncos are committed to defense, I would be surprised if the Broncos mess up this draft (at least for the first two rounds).

If we go for either Bowers/Dareus with our first pick (assuming Fairley goes #1 overall), we can always grab a solid CB in round 2 like Aaron Williams or even CU's Jimmy Smith.

If we go for Peterson with our first pick, then we can still possibly grab a solid DE/DL prospect such as Cameron Hayward, Allen Bailey, Cory Liuget with our next pick.

I'd be content with either scenario. With that said, trading down our #2 pick for a few spots down would be ideal.

[Diehard]

If were are looking for someone inside whose coverage responsibilities would be limited to short zones, Kelvin Sheppard from LSU looked like quite a thumper at the Senior Bowl. He's got the natural leadership you like to see from a MLB.

There are actually quite a few nice 4-3 LB prospects who will probably make it out of rounds 1-2. Trading down at some point to get an extra 3rd or 4th would be a wise idea, IMO.

[jCut]

I would love to get a guy like Mason Foster in the second round. I think he could be a starting ILB in John Fox's defense, similar to Beason. Not the biggest guy, but quick and instinctive.

[Diehard]

I would love to get a guy like Mason Foster in the second round. I think he could be a starting ILB in John Fox's defense, similar to Beason. Not the biggest guy, but quick and instinctive.

I think he could play any of the 4-3 LB spots. He's one that should be on our radar.

[DBNYDP]

Honestly I wouldn't be sad if our draft looked something like..
Dareus/Austin/Foster/Shepperd

[njx9]

i don't really have any interest in taking any player who missed the last year of football.

[crossroads]

Well, this is just ******* terrific.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/10/demaryius-thomas-ruptures-achilles-tendon/

[Cunningham]

Well, this is just ******* terrific.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/10/demaryius-thomas-ruptures-achilles-tendon/
wow, just wow

[Jimmy]

http://images.memegenerator.net/FUUUU/File/189795/FUUUU.jpg

[Diehard]

That flushing you hear is the sound of two drafts going down the tubes...

I'm tired of all these injuries. Dump guys who can't stay healthy. If someone slides in the draft due to injury concerns, *IGNORE THEM*. It's not a "steal" if they don't see the field.

[njx9]

pretty much agree. to be fair, i didn't like bryant at the time.

i'm just waiting for clady to pull a robert edwards now and basically flush the rest of the talent we have.

[Diehard]

Apparently, negotiations are back on with Champ. That sends some interesting signals about the CBA...

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17398281

[njx9]

that and the recent seymour resigning in oakland. i imagine, as senile as they both might be, al and pat have a pretty good finger on the CBA pulse.

[Jimmy]

4-3 it is...
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17418393

p.s. if we sign bob sanders imma kill a *****

[Jimmy]

this mayock quote angers me:

"You mentioned two incredibly talented guys that each have boom-or-bust potential," said Mike Mayock, a draft analyst for the NFL Network. "Da'Quan Bowers is a one-year wonder. It was a wonderful one year, but you better make sure because he didn't have production prior to that."

[Cunningham]

this mayock quote angers me:

"You mentioned two incredibly talented guys that each have boom-or-bust potential," said Mike Mayock, a draft analyst for the NFL Network. "Da'Quan Bowers is a one-year wonder. It was a wonderful one year, but you better make sure because he didn't have production prior to that."
yea, that seems a little harsh. how many defensive linemen come in and dominate in their first or second year out of high school? it's definitely one of the harder positions to make the transition from high school to college

[Jimmy]

yea, that seems a little harsh. how many defensive linemen come in and dominate in their first or second year out of high school? it's definitely one of the harder positions to make the transition from high school to college

yep. and let's not forget that "one year wonder" is a term relegated to players to emphasize the fact that they may have just had a fluke year, and haven't really played that well in years past

Bowers was a monster senior year, 9th in the ACC in sacks junior year despite missing 3 games, and was ranked the #1 ****ing overall high school football prospect by ESPN.com in 2008 I want to slap mayock, it's just soooo mindblowing how he'd say that.
how are you going to tell me that a guy who was allegedly the #1 high school player in the USA in '08 hasn't played well in years past?
sure, it was his first and only super productive college season, but i've never heard the term "one year wonder" slapped on a player who was a 5-star prospect in high school (edit: whom at 265 lbs, posted 16 sacks and 21 touchdowns on offense), it's usually guys who came out of nowhere.
i'm angry because i love mayock and that really makes me wonder if he's any smarter than some of the idiots posting here
/end rant. i gotta lay off the 5 hour energy

[Cunningham]

yep. and let's not forget that "one year wonder" is a term relegated to players to emphasize the fact that they may have just had a fluke year, and haven't really played that well in years past

Bowers was a monster senior year, 9th in the ACC in sacks junior year despite missing 3 games, and was ranked the #1 ****ing overall high school football prospect by ESPN.com in 2008 I want to slap mayock, it's just soooo mindblowing how he'd say that.
how are you going to tell me that a guy who was allegedly the #1 high school player in the USA in '08 hasn't played well in years past?
sure, it was his first and only super productive college season, but i've never heard the term "one year wonder" slapped on a player who was a 5-star prospect in high school (edit: whom at 265 lbs, posted 16 sacks and 21 touchdowns on offense), it's usually guys who came out of nowhere.
i'm angry because i love mayock and that really makes me wonder if he's any smarter than some of the idiots posting here
/end rant. i gotta lay off the 5 hour energy
mayock is as good as anyone, but he has his "moments". like last year, having earl thomas over berry, or being all over ayer's nuts a few years back

[njx9]

wait. what? why would mayock put ANYTHING into what bowers did as a high school player? i can't think of anything less relevant to his future pro performance (except, maybe, his pop warner numbers). he *was* apparently a one year wonder in college. by your own admission. if you don't think that matters, that's one thing, but to try to argue that he *wasn't* based on high school stats is, well, silly.

[Jimmy]

wait. what? why would mayock put ANYTHING into what bowers did as a high school player? i can't think of anything less relevant to his future pro performance (except, maybe, his pop warner numbers). he *was* apparently a one year wonder in college. by your own admission. if you don't think that matters, that's one thing, but to try to argue that he *wasn't* based on high school stats is, well, silly.

this is how i see it. Joe mcknight never put up elite numbers at usc. let's say he does nothing his first two years, despite getting some pt. Now, lets say all of a sudden, he puts up 1500 yards and 15+ TD's his junior year, and then declared, i would't invision people labeling him a 1 year wonder. it doesn't seem right to me, no matter if he just had 1 good college season. no former top 5 h.s. player, in my mind, deserves that label

and no, bowers was not a one year wonder. he was arguably a one year wonder, by some people's admission. i'm not willing to debate over stats right now, and partially recant supporting the fact that he isn't a 1yw with high school stats. BUT he was solid for at least 2 years. i've just never heard of someone labeling a somebody a one year wonder after arguably just one good season when they were previously a top 10 recruit. i just can't remember the last time i've heard that, nor do i think it makes sense. usually, guys who were super elite in high school, on the same level as Joe McKnight in terms of national recognition, aren't labeled like that. people don't wonder if they have elite talent. back to the stats, I was simply using a few offensive numbers to lightly reinforce the idea that he has always been an athletic freak who has produced, albiet in high school.

still, the main idea remains, when was the last time you heard of a top 10 high school recruit get the one year wonder label? it just seems odd.

[Jimmy]

some thoughts a day later...it's a "w/e" argument that you shouldn't waste your time on, nor will i waste my time defending after this. i'm not going to argue that high school stats count as production at the college level because that's... well... pointless. i'm just going to stick with the above idea that it just "feels odd" that mayock would label a guy who was a former all american is being labeled a 1yw. that's all.

[Jimmy]

wait. what? why would mayock put ANYTHING into what bowers did as a high school player? i can't think of anything less relevant to his future pro performance (except, maybe, his pop warner numbers)

just to add on though, contradicting everything i said about not wanting to continue this... i will point out (once again with a mcknight reference)
that Mayock, Kiper and Scott all put SOMETHING into what McKnight did as a high school player, otherwise they wouldn't have him ranked so high. you can argue mcknight is a freak, but i'd argue bowers isn't far off position wise. His performance at USC didn't merit that high of a look. so why shouldn't they put anything into Bowers?

[njx9]

i couldn't honestly care less whether bowers is a one year wonder or not. it's not relevant to my thoughts on him in denver. my argument was solely that he could be a one year wonder and that it wasn't incorrect for him to be labelled that way by someone who believed it was true. his status as a recruit is irrelevant.

further, had joe mcknight been a potential top 5 pick, it no doubt would've been a knock on him as well (if it's true).

[Namy]

The DP suggests that the Broncos take a hard look at Von Miller of A&M. He was never on my radar, despite his production throughout college.

The article I read argued that he was a player, who, because of his consistency in college as a pass rusher, would transition well to the NFL. We could expect him to have similar numbers in the pros. Any thoughts?

My preferences personally are Bowers and Dareus, with Fairley and Paterson close behind.

[njx9]

The DP suggests that the Broncos take a hard look at Von Miller of A&M. He was never on my radar, despite his production throughout college.

The article I read argued that he was a player, who, because of his consistency in college as a pass rusher, would transition well to the NFL. We could expect him to have similar numbers in the pros. Any thoughts?

My preferences personally are Bowers and Dareus, with Fairley and Paterson close behind.

i think we already have a sack specialist who isn't well suited to other downs, and i'd be hesitant to take another one. i'd rather get a guy like bowers, who i think could play 3 downs, if that's the position we target.

really, i just don't see miller as good enough at any of the things we *need* to justify the pick.

[DBNYDP]

Von would play perhaps the one position on defense that I feel good about (WLB).

[Diehard]

The deal is done.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Bailey-Stays-a-Bronco/11c1308f-3585-42b3-82a9-1189d913686b

It appears the new regime made a big difference in this decision.

[njx9]

i'm smiling for what might be the first time all year regarding denver sports. all right, second time, considering we fired mcdaniels.

though this only makes me want peterson more.

[Cunningham]

i'm smiling for what might be the first time all year regarding denver sports. all right, second time, considering we fired mcdaniels.

though this only makes me want peterson more.
but dude! what about the front seven!

[njx9]

but dude! what about the front seven!

spend every pick after round one on it. seriously.

[Cunningham]

spend every pick after round one on it. seriously.
we definitely need help at defensive tackle and mlb.

can you imagine haggan or mays playing in the middle? hell, even having dj there makes me want to cry

[DBNYDP]

Please if we get Peterson we'll still get abused. Just that we'll get abused on the ground or after the 10 secs a QB has to look for an open guy.
But I'm thrilled he's back

[njx9]

Please if we get Peterson we'll still get abused. Just that we'll get abused on the ground or after the 10 secs a QB has to look for an open guy.
But I'm thrilled he's back

*eyeroll* because we don't have any other draft picks, or, because the 2nd is the only one that matters.

let me know when someone advocates not addressing the front seven at all.

[Cunningham]

Please if we get Peterson we'll still get abused. Just that we'll get abused on the ground or after the 10 secs a QB has to look for an open guy.
But I'm thrilled he's back
yeah, if you didn't notice, last year's defense was atrocious. it's not going to be fixed in one year. let's stop pretending that drafting a dl with every single pick would change that.

we need talent at all levels. look at all of the best defenses in the league. the jets, ravens, steelers, and packers all have at least one stud defensive back. we don't have that guy right now (no, a 33 year old champ doesn't count), and we have the perfect opportunity to get one with peterson.

[DBNYDP]

yeah, if you didn't notice, last year's defense was atrocious. it's not going to be fixed in one year. let's stop pretending that drafting a dl with every single pick would change that.

Where did I say our defense was going to be fixed in a year? We have very little talent in the front 7 and it takes time to build quality players/depth there.

we need talent at all levels. look at all of the best defenses in the league. the jets, ravens, steelers, and packers all have at least one stud defensive back. we don't have that guy right now (no, a 33 year old champ doesn't count), and we have the perfect opportunity to get one with peterson.
You really are kidding yourself if you don't think front 7 has a bigger role in those teams success. They also have some of the biggest studs in the front 7, and especially on their defensive line e.g Ngata/Raji/Jenkins (when healthy)/Hampton. They have great linebackers Lewis, Suggs, Matthews, Harris, Harrison, and Woodley.
The talent that they have in their front 7 is immense and the depth is outstanding...

I'm not going to deny that someone like Polamalu has a huge impact for the Steelers just because as a roaming safety we've seen how many plays he can make. But frankly that is at safety. I'll say it again and again, corners do not have the impact that other plays like safeties/tackles/linebackers/ends have. Now you may want to convert Peterson which might be a good idea but that would mean you literally are drafting him for his athletic talent and hope he learns a position that requires a lot of football knowledge and decision making ability. As a corner he simply won't have the impact Fairley or Dareus or even Bowers will have. He won't help us a whole lot against the run. Nor will he be able to lock his man down for ever if the QB still has all day to throw.

NJX made a great point, we have more than one draft pick, lets use the rest on defensive linemen! Too bad the drop off is still considerable from the 1st to the second and so forward. We need two tackles, an end is probably a good idea, and probably 2 linebackers. All that with just 3 picks. Not to mention the gap we will still have at safety (we could get Moore/McDaniels/Carter in the second, and possibly get that huge playmaker). Oh and most likely we will want to try to fill out the blindside tackle spot asap as well. Oh and if we have other picks to use, why not simply get a corner later in the draft? The same logic applies there, and we might actually get a safer pick later (some do question Peterson's ability to be a corner because of his weight) in someone like Johnny Patrick or Davon House.

Right now the defensive line is the biggest need and there will be high quality linemen available when we pick. Secondary might still be an issue, especially the cornerback position but if we have Goodman next year, we are fine for the position for now. Add in the fact that Cox has shown good play at times (keep in mind it takes time for corners to come into their own generally), it is not close to our biggest need. Then you might comeback with HEY BUT PETERSON IS THE BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE,and I'd say that is the same logic that got Millen in so much trouble. There is a point where you need to fill your biggest needs.

[njx9]

Too bad the drop off is still considerable from the 1st to the second and so forward.

i don't buy that at all. i think the talent level drops off FAR less sharply on the DL (for a 43) than it does at any other position in the entire draft. i think there will be 1st round caliber 43 players available in the 2nd round this year. and i don't believe that fairley or dareus are anywhere near suh-level (or even mccoy-level) prospects.

We need two tackles, an end is probably a good idea, and probably 2 linebackers. All that with just 3 picks.

and free agency.

Not to mention the gap we will still have at safety (we could get Moore/McDaniels/Carter in the second, and possibly get that huge playmaker).

a position peterson may be best suited for.

Oh and most likely we will want to try to fill out the blindside tackle spot asap as well.

so what's YOUR plan for filling every single one of those needs? i mean, how does naming all of these needs make it more justifiable to take a DT in the firsT?

Oh and if we have other picks to use, why not simply get a corner later in the draft? The same logic applies there, and we might actually get a safer pick later (some do question Peterson's ability to be a corner because of his weight) in someone like Johnny Patrick or Davon House.

neither of those players are 'safer'. neither of those players are anywhere near peterson's level as a prospect. in fact, unless you like amukamara, no one is. i don't buy that dareus or fairley are at that level.

Then you might comeback with HEY BUT PETERSON IS THE BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE,and I'd say that is the same logic that got Millen in so much trouble.

except that it's not. no one thought mike williams was the BPA except for millen.

[Cunningham]

Where did I say our defense was going to be fixed in a year? We have very little talent in the front 7 and it takes time to build quality players/depth there.


You really are kidding yourself if you don't think front 7 has a bigger role in those teams success. They also have some of the biggest studs in the front 7, and especially on their defensive line e.g Ngata/Raji/Jenkins (when healthy)/Hampton. They have great linebackers Lewis, Suggs, Matthews, Harris, Harrison, and Woodley.
The talent that they have in their front 7 is immense and the depth is outstanding...

I'm not going to deny that someone like Polamalu has a huge impact for the Steelers just because as a roaming safety we've seen how many plays he can make. But frankly that is at safety. I'll say it again and again, corners do not have the impact that other plays like safeties/tackles/linebackers/ends have. Now you may want to convert Peterson which might be a good idea but that would mean you literally are drafting him for his athletic talent and hope he learns a position that requires a lot of football knowledge and decision making ability. As a corner he simply won't have the impact Fairley or Dareus or even Bowers will have. He won't help us a whole lot against the run. Nor will he be able to lock his man down for ever if the QB still has all day to throw.

NJX made a great point, we have more than one draft pick, lets use the rest on defensive linemen! Too bad the drop off is still considerable from the 1st to the second and so forward. We need two tackles, an end is probably a good idea, and probably 2 linebackers. All that with just 3 picks. Not to mention the gap we will still have at safety (we could get Moore/McDaniels/Carter in the second, and possibly get that huge playmaker). Oh and most likely we will want to try to fill out the blindside tackle spot asap as well. Oh and if we have other picks to use, why not simply get a corner later in the draft? The same logic applies there, and we might actually get a safer pick later (some do question Peterson's ability to be a corner because of his weight) in someone like Johnny Patrick or Davon House.

Right now the defensive line is the biggest need and there will be high quality linemen available when we pick. Secondary might still be an issue, especially the cornerback position but if we have Goodman next year, we are fine for the position for now. Add in the fact that Cox has shown good play at times (keep in mind it takes time for corners to come into their own generally), it is not close to our biggest need. Then you might comeback with HEY BUT PETERSON IS THE BEST PLAYER AVAILABLE,and I'd say that is the same logic that got Millen in so much trouble. There is a point where you need to fill your biggest needs.
not going to address the whole thing, because njx already made SOME GREAT POINTS, but you said before...

Please if we get Peterson we'll still get abused. Just that we'll get abused on the ground or after the 10 secs a QB has to look for an open guy
let's say you weren't talking about next season. who are you to say that we'll still be abused on defense, let's say in the '12 or '13 season, because we took peterson instead of a dl? you're not taking anything else into consideration when you make a claim like that.

also, please stop with the front seven ****. find me one person who believes or has made a statement indicating that having a good secondary is more important than having a good front seven.

[DBNYDP]

And why not get Peterson this year and wait for Jenkins or Kilpatrick next year? Two prospects that have pretty high upsides but aren't as risky at Peterson is?

We need top talent in the front 7 now, and frankly I don't see great linemen like we have in this draft in the next couple years

Next year is deeper at corner so why not wait..
And we can arguably turn this ship around to maybe a team that can break even if we dramatically improve our front 7. It takes a lot of time and a lot of picks to build the front 7.

We have a nice CB crew right now, I'd like to give them a shot before we go using the 2nd pick of the draft there.

[Cunningham]

And why not get Peterson this year and wait for Jenkins or Kilpatrick next year? Two prospects that have pretty high upsides but aren't as risky at Peterson is?

We need top talent in the front 7 now, and frankly I don't see great linemen like we have in this draft in the next couple years

Next year is deeper at corner so why not wait..
And we can arguably turn this ship around to maybe a team that can break even if we dramatically improve our front 7. It takes a lot of time and a lot of picks to build the front 7.

We have a nice CB crew right now, I'd like to give them a shot before we go using the 2nd pick of the draft there.
you've probably already said it somewhere, but who would you want out of the dl for our first pick?

[njx9]

We have a nice CB crew right now

and that's where i strongly disagree. i think our secondary is just as bad as our front 7.

[Jimmy]

Wow. I really thought he wanted a championship. The loyalty of that guy. So awesome.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

The way I see it, we need talent and playmakers on our defense. Period. We don't have enough of them. I'd be happy with either Peterson or Fairley. I don't think Bowers and Dareus are worth #2, and I'm not convinced our DE situation is anywhere near as bad as DT and DB.

[Timbathia]

I still think our LBs are the worst line of the defense. The secondary will look better if the front 4 can put pressure on the QB, and the front 4 will be better if Doom is there to provide a pass-rush. In a 4-3, Ayers, Bannan, etc. will be much, much less of a negative influence on our def performance IMO than Mays and Haggan will be. Hopefully the answer at LB is in FA, or else we can hope we get a guy in the second that can contribute right away. Otherwise, I dont think it matters if we get a stud DT or CB, as we will suck great big donkey balls.

[Diehard]

Xanders on the Fan talking about the deal with Champ:

http://www.1043thefan.com/channels/audioOnDemand/Story.aspx?ID=1368603

Some interesting stuff in there about the new defense. He also described the player they are looking for at #2 in the draft: disruptive playmaker, gets tfl's and sacks, loves football, wants to be a Bronco for next 15 years.

[LonghornsLegend]

Wow. I really thought he wanted a championship. The loyalty of that guy. So awesome.

Weren't people trying to report how he put his house up for sale and how that meant he didn't want to play for Denver anymore? Just shows you how the media can huff up any story and read into it what they want to.

[jCut]

i don't buy that at all. i think the talent level drops off FAR less sharply on the DL (for a 43) than it does at any other position in the entire draft. i think there will be 1st round caliber 43 players available in the 2nd round this year. and i don't believe that fairley or dareus are anywhere near suh-level (or even mccoy-level) prospects.

You are fooling yourself if you don't think Fairley is "anywhere near McCoy-level". That's just a silly thing to say.

Due to this draft having a strong DL class, there will most definitely be a run on lineman throughout the first round. There is no guarantee that any of these 1st round caliber prospects will drop to us. In my opinion, I would say it's more likely that 1st round caliber prospects of other positions are more likely to drop, due to said run.

[njx9]

You are fooling yourself if you don't think Fairley is "anywhere near McCoy-level". That's just a silly thing to say.

Due to this draft having a strong DL class, there will most definitely be a run on lineman throughout the first round. There is no guarantee that any of these 1st round caliber prospects will drop to us. In my opinion, I would say it's more likely that 1st round caliber prospects of other positions are more likely to drop, due to said run.

i just don't buy it. fairley is lazy and 'stupid' on the field (dumb penalties and mental mistakes). mccoy was very nearly on a level with suh, as far as i'm concerned, and fairley isn't anywhere near any of them. in watching auburn last year and texas/nebraska the year before, there isn't a single thing that i think fairley does as well as either of the guys last year.

further, what run on 43 defensive linemen? most of the league runs a 34 now. do you think they're all as bad at drafting as mcxanders was (see: ayers, robert)?

[bigbluedefense]

To compound on njx9's point, don't forget that 4-3 UT has become a position that falls in the draft bc of the demand of the 3-4.

You can most likely grab Nevis with your 2nd rounder. I much rather go Peterson in the 1st and Nevis in the 2nd.

CBs are like pass rushers. You can never have enough. And how great would it be for Peterson to learn under Champ Bailey?

[Namy]

To compound on njx9's point, don't forget that 4-3 UT has become a position that falls in the draft bc of the demand of the 3-4.

You can most likely grab Nevis with your 2nd rounder. I much rather go Peterson in the 1st and Nevis in the 2nd.

CBs are like pass rushers. You can never have enough. And how great would it be for Peterson to learn under Champ Bailey?

Good points BBD. Definitely, the most attractive thing about drafting PP, imo, is not his atheletic ability. It's that Champ Bailey would have a worthy protoge (for once). I think the sky is the limit for PP were he to learn under Champ Bailey.

With that said, I still think that having two stud DBs is more of a luxury than a necessity. Not to mention, I think that some of the DBs that could fall into the second round are more than competent (e.g. CU's Jimmy Smith or Aaron Williams).

This train of thought may be overplayed, but I think the game is still won at the trenches. If we can get a strong push on the DL, it will naturally play in favor of ALL of our DBs. The more I read about Bowers, the more I want him. He seems to be the best of the bunch on the DL. Size, speed, pass rush, and run support. He seems to have Julius Peppers upside. My only concern with him is injury related. Hopefully, he's a player who can stay healthy.

For reasons that NJX gave, I would not want Fairley. He seems immature and I don't see him working hard enough to maximize his potential. But I do like Dareus. The guy's a beast and has had consistent production in college. And DT is a bigger need than DE anyway.

That's why personally it's a toss-up between Bowers and Dareus for me. But I wouldn't be bummed if we got Peterson or Fairley either. All four of them are great players.

EDIT: BBD, I also agree with your signature that Amare is better than Bosh. Like Durant said, Bosh is a fake tough guy LOL. With that said, I just noticed that I still have my signature from like 4 years ago. How embarassing, we don't have Melo or AI now.

Congrats on getting Melo. No matter what all the haters say, he took the Nuggets to the playoffs every single year. And you got Chauncey Billups. He's a true winner.

[jCut]

i just don't buy it. fairley is lazy and 'stupid' on the field (dumb penalties and mental mistakes). mccoy was very nearly on a level with suh, as far as i'm concerned, and fairley isn't anywhere near any of them. in watching auburn last year and texas/nebraska the year before, there isn't a single thing that i think fairley does as well as either of the guys last year.

further, what run on 43 defensive linemen? most of the league runs a 34 now. do you think they're all as bad at drafting as mcxanders was (see: ayers, robert)?

So was Suh lazy and stupid when he took several personal fouls last year? Nick Fairley was the most dominant DT in college football last year and helped his team to a national title. Don't be so quick to write him off because of a few dumb penalties.

And I'd say most of these lineman are not system-specific. Bowers and Fairley maybe, but beyond that it's a very versatile DL group.

edit: also, do you really think bowlen will invest as much as 90 million in two cornerbacks? not likely in my opinion.

[njx9]

edit: also, do you really think bowlen will invest as much as 90 million in two cornerbacks? not likely in my opinion.

lolwut?

there will be a rookie wage scale in place.

[jCut]

lolwut?

there will be a rookie wage scale in place.

LOLZ

At this point there isn't a CBA in place, let alone a rookie wage scale.

[njx9]

LOLZ

At this point there isn't a CBA in place, let alone a rookie wage scale.

... right. so i'm assuming that, since the rookie salaries benefit no one, it will be taken care of in the new CBA. but hey, fair enough. you're right, it's unlikely that bowlen will want to tie up $238947329847329498237 in the cornerback position. *eyeroll*

[jCut]

... right. so i'm assuming that, since the rookie salaries benefit no one, it will be taken care of in the new CBA. but hey, fair enough. you're right, it's unlikely that bowlen will want to tie up $238947329847329498237 in the cornerback position. *eyeroll*

It's the same reason the Jets are likely to let Cromartie walk.

[njx9]

It's the same reason the Jets are likely to let Cromartie walk.

is it the same reason they didn't draft a CB in the first round last year?

[Cunningham]

So was Suh lazy and stupid when he took several personal fouls last year? Nick Fairley was the most dominant DT in college football last year and helped his team to a national title. Don't be so quick to write him off because of a few dumb penalties.

And I'd say most of these lineman are not system-specific. Bowers and Fairley maybe, but beyond that it's a very versatile DL group.

edit: also, do you really think bowlen will invest as much as 90 million in two cornerbacks? not likely in my opinion.
i don't think dirty play in general is reflective of one's intelligence, but you can look at any interview with fairley and you can tell he's a dumb kid. additionally, fairley has one year of production. he had done jackshit before this past season, and he is absolutely the definition of a one year wonder. i'm not guaranteeing he'll be a bust, but not too many people would be shocked if he ends up disappointing in the nfl. there's no way he can touch suh or mccoy as a prospect.

[jCut]

is it the same reason they didn't draft a CB in the first round last year?

Hell, Perrish Cox had a more effective year than Kyle Wilson. Wilson had a terrible rookie season and did nothing to earn a starting job. His skill-set is ideal for nickel duties anyway, and that's what they drafted him to be. My point being; they are allowing Cromartie to walk because other positions of need (mainly re-signing Santonio Holmes, addressing their aging front-seven) need to be addressed. Having two premium corners is a very nice luxury, but not necessary.

i don't think dirty play in general is reflective of one's intelligence, but you can look at any interview with fairley and you can tell he's a dumb kid. additionally, fairley has one year of production. he had done jackshit before this past season, and he is absolutely the definition of a one year wonder. i'm not guaranteeing he'll be a bust, but not too many people would be shocked if he ends up disappointing in the nfl. there's no way he can touch suh or mccoy as a prospect.

Fairley was a JUCO transfer, and spent his sophomore year in Division-1 adjusting to higher competition. In his junior year he dominated.

[njx9]

Hell, Perrish Cox had a more effective year than Kyle Wilson. Wilson had a terrible rookie season and did nothing to earn a starting job. His skill-set is ideal for nickel duties anyway, and that's what they drafted him to be. My point being; they are allowing Cromartie to walk because other positions of need (mainly re-signing Santonio Holmes, addressing their aging front-seven) need to be addressed. Having two premium corners is a very nice luxury, but not necessary.

so they drafted another DB in the first because having a nickel back was that important (apparently more important than addressing an aging front seven)?

what does perrish cox have to do with anything?

[Cunningham]

Hell, Perrish Cox had a more effective year than Kyle Wilson. Wilson had a terrible rookie season and did nothing to earn a starting job. His skill-set is ideal for nickel duties anyway, and that's what they drafted him to be. My point being; they are allowing Cromartie to walk because other positions of need (mainly re-signing Santonio Holmes, addressing their aging front-seven) need to be addressed. Having two premium corners is a very nice luxury, but not necessary.



Fairley was a JUCO transfer, and spent his sophomore year in Division-1 adjusting to higher competition. In his junior year he dominated.
i know he was a juco transfer. it doesn't change the fact that he only had one season worth a damn at the collegiate level.

[bigbluedefense]

Quick thought of mine just now.

1. Peterson CB
2. Nevis DT
3. Quan MIKE

move DJ to WILL. Thoughts on that 3 round mock?

[Cunningham]

Quick thought of mine just now.

1. Peterson CB
2. Nevis DT
3. Quan MIKE

move DJ to WILL. Thoughts on that 3 round mock?
it's good, but we have miami's 2nd rounder as well. any reason for having nevis over paea and liuget?

[bigbluedefense]

it's good, but we have miami's 2nd rounder as well. any reason for having nevis over paea and liuget?

Didn't know you had an extra 2nd. Shoot, I'd use that 2nd on Nate Irving and ditch Quan in the 3rd if that were the case.

I assumed Paea and Liuget may both be gone. Plus Nevis reminds me of Geno Atkins in a way. I admit I'm not entirely sold on Nevis, but he is a great fit as a pass rusher inside in a 4-3. He's very exclusively a 4-3 DT, and I highly doubt he's gone in the 1st.

[jCut]

so they drafted another DB in the first because having a nickel back was that important (apparently more important than addressing an aging front seven)?

what does perrish cox have to do with anything?

In case you didn't know, a nickel corner is basically a starter in the NFL.

I'm just pointing out that Perrish Cox is more deserving of a starting job than Kyle Wilson is, based on last years play.

I just don't get the insistence that we draft Peterson. It won't happen. Count on it.

[jCut]

Didn't know you had an extra 2nd. Shoot, I'd use that 2nd on Nate Irving and ditch Quan in the 3rd if that were the case.

I assumed Paea and Liuget may both be gone. Plus Nevis reminds me of Geno Atkins in a way. I admit I'm not entirely sold on Nevis, but he is a great fit as a pass rusher inside in a 4-3. He's very exclusively a 4-3 DT, and I highly doubt he's gone in the 1st.

Nevis just doesn't do it for me. We need a dominant run-stuffer, and that's why we should target a DT earlier.

[bigbluedefense]

Nevis just doesn't do it for me. We need a dominant run-stuffer, and that's why we should target a DT earlier.

run stuffing nose tackles in a 4-3 defense can be had in later rounds. in a 43, you want your Under to be a pass rusher first and foremost.

He can develop into a run stuffer when he puts on more weight and gets some NFL coaching.

I agree though, Nevis needs some work. We'll have a better idea of where guys will fall once the combine comes around. It would not surprise me if you can get Nevis in the 3rd when all the dust settles.

Geno fell to the 4th bc he was strictly a pass rushing DT who was undersized. But those guys thrive in a 4-3.

[Diehard]

run stuffing nose tackles in a 4-3 defense can be had in later rounds. in a 43, you want your Under to be a pass rusher first and foremost.

I'd say an inside pass rusher is right at the top of our needs. Too many times our DL gets stonewalled by the OL on passing downs. Dumervil coming back gives us the outside rush, but having some push inside as well would make it difficult for the QB to step up to avoid Doom.

[njx9]

see, this is why i think we take (i mean, why *i* would take) peterson in the first. i think there are a LOT of guys we could target with those two seconds and third to play upfront.

anyone have thoughts on jamal williams as a run-down guy? he's a big body, but i dunno what his role would be (maybe 'how he would fit in' would be more accurate) in a 43...

[Timbathia]

see, this is why i think we take (i mean, why *i* would take) peterson in the first. i think there are a LOT of guys we could target with those two seconds and third to play upfront.

anyone have thoughts on jamal williams as a run-down guy? he's a big body, but i dunno what his role would be (maybe 'how he would fit in' would be more accurate) in a 43...

I would think that Bannan and Williams could split reps as a 4-3 NT. I am not even sure that we need to draft someone this year for that role. Pass rushing DT is the real need, with LB, CB, and S all more important than the run stuffing DT.

[jCut]

Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but I don't see Williams making the team. Bannan is the only guy I think is assured of a spot.

[Timbathia]

Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but I don't see Williams making the team. Bannan is the only guy I think is assured of a spot.

You may be right, but based on our lack of quality depth it might be worthwhile to keep Williams there for goal-line and obvious running down duties.

[jCut]

You may be right, but based on our lack of quality depth it might be worthwhile to keep Williams there for goal-line and obvious running down duties.

Definitely a good point, but I think we may just cut him, considering he is owed $5 million this year and none of it is guaranteed. He's definitely not worth the money and I don't know if he wants to be part of our rebuilding process in moving to a 43.

[Diehard]

Xanders talking about changes in how they are approaching the draft:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17493183

I'm glad the shortlist approach is gone. It was obvious we reached on some players using that system (e.g. Quinn).

The "speed and athleticism" bit is interesting. MLB, SLB and SS are all in dire need of an upgrade if that is what we are looking for in our back 7.

[DBNYDP]

Lately I've been conflicted.
If we drafted Peterson I wouldn't mutilate myself. It would give us a great corner, and that is pretty rare to find.
Especially if we can get a combination of Paea/Nevis/Austin/Wilkerson/Taylor with our 2nd round picks.
I'd keep Williams as a backup NT. He's a solid leader on this team, and should be able to mentor guys on this line. He's also a high character guy so maybe he can make sure that some of the "questionable characters" at defensive tackle learn to behave themselves as professionals.

[jCut]

Xanders talking about changes in how they are approaching the draft:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17493183

I'm glad the shortlist approach is gone. It was obvious we reached on some players using that system (e.g. Quinn).

The "speed and athleticism" bit is interesting. MLB, SLB and SS are all in dire need of an upgrade if that is what we are looking for in our back 7.

Wow. Interesting read.

I wonder if Woodyard could be a stop-gap at SLB. He definitely has the speed and athleticism. He was obviously miscast as a 34 ILB.

[CT Bronco Fan]

The good news is that no matter who we draft at 2, they will be an immediate upgrade.

The bads news is that the good news is pretty pathetic.

I think Carolina goes with Bowers/Quinn, I personally have my eye on Dareus anyways, so that'd be fine by me. Either one of the DL imo.

[Diehard]

I wonder if Woodyard could be a stop-gap at SLB. He definitely has the speed and athleticism. He was obviously miscast as a 34 ILB.

Taking on the TE (in the running game and in coverage) is the bread-n-butter of a 4-3 SLB. Woodyard gives up a lot of weight in that matchup... he's only 220 or so.

[njx9]

per this thread (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45990), i really want manny lawson at SLB for us. he sounds like a perfect fit all around, and if pass rushing really is his biggest weakness, i don't think he'll be *that* expensive.

[Diehard]

Yes, I think Lawson would work. FA is the right place to be looking for a SLB - reasonable value for money since you aren't overpaying for pass rush and there are some options available this time around (assuming FA happens).

We haven't been able to cover a TE in, well, forever it seems. Would be nice to change that.

[Timbathia]

Yes, I think Lawson would work. FA is the right place to be looking for a SLB - reasonable value for money since you aren't overpaying for pass rush and there are some options available this time around (assuming FA happens).

We haven't been able to cover a TE in, well, forever it seems. Would be nice to change that.

Good - either you or njx get the paperwork moving on this so that as soon as the CBA stuff is sorted out we can get him to Dove Valley. It sounds like a much better option than Mario or Joe.

[Diehard]

Good - either you or njx get the paperwork moving on this so that as soon as the CBA stuff is sorted out we can get him to Dove Valley. It sounds like a much better option than Mario or Joe.

I'll get my secretary working on it tomorrow when I get to the office. She'll of course have no ******* idea what I'm talking about. Should be amusing.

[Cunningham]

so that patrick peterson is pretty good....

[njx9]

how'd he look in drills? all i can see are the numbers... eye-popping....

[njx9]

i have to be honest, though, i will puke if we take kyle rudolph in the 2nd. i've said ti before, but i can't think of very many *worse* picks we could make.

[RaiderNation]

Fairley or Dareus?

[Diehard]

Fairley or Dareus?

I think they'd go the more conservative route and pick Dareus.

[Cunningham]

how'd he look in drills? all i can see are the numbers... eye-popping....
i didn't see it, but mayock said he looked good for what it's worth

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

I want PP really bad now.

[njx9]

to revamp what i said in the other thread, if we go DT in the first, then i wouldn't mind going with rashad carmichael, jalil brown or, iirc, marcus gilchrist as developmental guys.

[Namy]

Reports seem to indicate that Dareus and PP had some of the better showings. Hopefully, we'll target one of these two.

Fairley seemed to be too light. And Bowers' injury is not recovering as quickly as people thought it would. That is scaring me away from drafting him, to be honest.

If we can trade down, I wouldn't mind drafting Von Miller either as he looks like the real deal.

[Diehard]

Fox on KOA:

http://www.850koa.com/cc-common/mediaplayer/player.html?redir=yes&mps=cmn.php&mid=http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/29876/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/29876/668/richmedia/2-2_JOHN_FOX.mp3?CCOMRRMID=20915794&CPROG=RICHMEDIA&MARKET=DENVER-CO&NG_FORMAT=&NG_ID=&OR_NEWSFORMAT=&OWNER=668&SERVER_NAME=www.850koa.com&SITE_ID=668&STATION_ID=KOA-AM&TRACK=

Said that having the second pick allows them to hit both positional need and get value in terms of talent, and that they have 5-6 guys they like at #2.

Also said the 40 was pretty important in terms of draft stock. Interesting.

[Diehard]

Daniel Graham cut:

http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Graham-Released/0029ab07-f1f7-4307-883e-726aa8a83e20

Qualifying offers for RFA's Woodyard, Harris, Thomas, Vickerson, Prater:

http://twitter.com/johnelway

[njx9]

5-6? dareus, fairley, bowers, quinn... peterson... ???

[Namy]

5-6? dareus, fairley, bowers, quinn... peterson... ???

Perhaps Von Miller?

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

Cam Newton? This is the Broncos after all.

[njx9]

Perhaps Von Miller?

i still sincerely hope not. there's no value in any position he'd play at #2.

[jCut]

Fairley seemed to be too light.

Huh? He's 291 lbs. That's about average for a 43 UT.

People were first saying he will eat his way out of the league, and now he's too light.

[Diehard]

5-6? dareus, fairley, bowers, quinn... peterson... ???

I wouldn't be surprised if one of Quinn and Fairley isn't on their list. The organization is definitely risk-adverse right now and I could see how the team might be scared off by the off-the-field questions or bust factor.

I think Von Miller is probably on the list. There was a thing in the Denver Post yesterday about DJ as WLB or MLB, with the writer's sense being the organization was learning towards him playing *MLB* based on the talent that was available in the draft and FA. That's pretty much the opposite of what I was thinking, but if it is true, it could be setting things up for potentially bringing in Miller to play a more blitz-focused role on the outside in Allen's defense (which I'm sure will incorporate some of the things he learned from Gregg Williams in NO).

[njx9]

i just see aaron curry written all over him.

meanwhile, DJ is still backpedalling on every play at MLB and making tackles 8 yards down field. which i wish i could blame on scheme, but he's been doing it for like, 5 years.

speaking of, anyone remember mike croel? great rookie season... play tailed off after that... was out of the nfl after like, 6 years? it's odd how similar his career as run to DJ's as of now. (thanks pro-football-reference, for pointing out the statistical similarities)

[DBNYDP]

Frankly from what I've seen Von Miller is really nothing more than average maybe slightly above average when it comes to playing in coverage and stopping the run. I think there are going to be 4-3 OLBs as good as him, if not better because of experience such as Foster, Carter, or Wilson in later rounds. What makes him a special player is his pass rushing abilities which I don't so used effectively enough to justify a top pick.
Also I think you'd be replacing D.J with Von Miller is somewhat silly to me. I don't think he is a very good MLB or SLB, but as a WLB I think he is a top 5 WLB. He really used his athleticism well when he played there, and doesn't have to worry as much about shedding blocks/playing against TEs.

[Timbathia]

Von Miller seems better suited to a team that will use him in blitz packages. All indications are that we will use our front 4 to get pressure, and not our LBs. I think he will be a very good player, but doesnt seem the ideal impact option for us at #2.

I dont think Quinn can even be in the conversation.

I dont think it matters who we get out of the other 4. Legit arguments for any - it will probably come down to the interviews, so we have no way of knowing who it will be until the draft. We just need to make sure that the second round picks turn into good starters (one of them almost has to be a LBer).

[Diehard]

Some prospects we're keeping an eye on according to the DP:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_17522231

* Dareus
* J.J. Watt
* Dontay Moch
* Von Miller
* Patrick Peterson
* Da'Norris Searcy

A bit of a fluff piece but it is interesting to hear we interviewed Moch at the combine. He's fits the bill for "increasing team speed and athleticism". SLB?

[njx9]

seems like moch is a worse fit than miller, unless we want a pure rush down backer... or we think he can be had pretty late.

[Diehard]

seems like moch is a worse fit than miller, unless we want a pure rush down backer... or we think he can be had pretty late.

Agreed. It's curious that the team appears to have an interest in a rushbacker type player despite the comments about moving to a 4-3. Maybe Allen is influencing the defensive scheme than we think? Moch or Miller could be quite effective in 3-3-5 looks where they can come off the edge.

[njx9]

yeah, i'd be much less opposed to miller (though i'd still think we have better options) if that was the thought process for a defense.

[Diehard]

Bannan and JWall gone:

http://twitter.com/Denver_Broncos

I knew Williams would be a goner - too old, too much money. Bannan is a little more of a surprise. DL was never a position of strength, but with both Thomas and Vickerson RFA's (and potentially FA's depending on how the CBA shakes out) and now these cuts, we could very well have a complete turnover at DT.

[njx9]

makes dareus seem a lot more likely...

[Babylon]

makes dareus seem a lot more likely...

Allright bigman give me your take on Elway's less than ringing endorsement of Tim Tebow? or is there nothing there.

[njx9]

Allright bigman give me your take on Elway's less than ringing endorsement of Tim Tebow? or is there nothing there.

is there a link? i haven't seen anything like that (not that it's not true, but i'd be interested in reading it)

[Babylon]

is there a link? i haven't seen anything like that (not that it's not true, but i'd be interested in reading it)

I want to say it was on PFT. It was in the context of Timmy played well at the end of the year but was very raw. I think Elway implied that Orton will be the starter going into the season.

[Diehard]

makes dareus seem a lot more likely...

It certainly does. It would also seem likely that they'll announce a deal with Vickerson and/or Thomas in the near future as well.

[jCut]

Wow. 2010's free agency class was a complete bust. Another tally on McD's **** list. I called Williams leaving, but I didn't expect Bannan to be gone.

[Chris]

seems like moch is a worse fit than miller, unless we want a pure rush down backer... or we think he can be had pretty late.

Fox probably seems a lot of similarities between Moch and Everette Brown.

I believe Miller is best suited in a 3-4 and isn't the best fit for our team, because essentially he is the same kind of player as Elvis Dumervil.

An attack style defense requires fast players who swarm to the ball. This team is devoid of quality pass rushers, so there is no surprise that these guys are on our radar.

I would not be surprised at all if Moch is a guy we look for in the second round.

[Diehard]

I thought this might happen:

http://twitter.com/Denver_Broncos#


The Broncos have agreed to terms with defensive lineman Kevin Vickerson on a multi-year contract.

[Jimmy]

The Perrish Cox preliminary trial is tomorrow, basically it will determine if the judge thinks there's enough evidence to go forward with the case.

fingers crossed

[Timbathia]

The Perrish Cox preliminary trial is tomorrow, basically it will determine if the judge thinks there's enough evidence to go forward with the case.

fingers crossed

If he is guilty then I hope he goes to prison.

If he is not guilty, then I have my fingers crossed too that the judge throws it out tomorrow and Perrish can move on with getting ready for the season.

[Diehard]

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_17564839?source=rss

Auburn, who has two potential Top 5 picks in defensive tackle Nick Fairley and quarterback Cam Newton, is the first stop in a multi-campus tour for the Broncos' brain trust. The group will also visit Alabama (to see defensive tackle Marcell Dareus) and Texas A&M (to see linebacker Vonn Miller) this week. Dareus and Von Miller are also considered possible top five picks.

[Diehard]

Apparently Champ and Patrick Peterson have been chatting:

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/25167/peterson-chats-of-bailey-union

Peterson, who earlier in the chat said Bailey has been among the NFL cornerbacks to contact with him, said he is on board. Here is Peterson’s response to the question:

“That would be wonderful to go there and help a veteran get over the hump and get a championship. Champ has been in the game a long time and he's thirsty to win a championship. I would be more than happy to line up beside him and achieve that goal that he wants and that I want as well.”

[Diehard]

Apparently McCoy was at the Razorbacks' Pro Day:

http://arkansas.scout.com/2/1054233.html

TE DJ Williams would be the obvious reason for attending, though Tebow haters may have their fantasies that it was secretly all about watching Mallett throw.

[Jimmy]

Apparently McCoy was at the Razorbacks' Pro Day:

http://arkansas.scout.com/2/1054233.html

TE DJ Williams would be the obvious reason for attending, though Tebow haters may have their fantasies that it was secretly all about watching Mallett throw.

so.... what would DJ Williams the linebacker's jersey say if we acquired the TE?

[njx9]

ew. with zach miller tendered at a 3rd, i'm not sure why we'd look at a te in the draft.

[Diehard]

ew. with zach miller tendered at a 3rd, i'm not sure why we'd look at a te in the draft.

I assume the Raiders would match if we tried to sign him. Old Mr. Dawn of the Dead won't let one of his guys escape to the hated Broncos.

Despite the obvious focus on defense, I would expect the team to take an offensive player in the first 4 picks... TE being the most likely option (followed by RT and a bruiser RB).

[njx9]

i dunno if he'd care, now that shanahan is gone. even then, if they match, they match and we move on. but i'd rather get a proven player if we're going to piss away a pick on a position like TE.

either way, fox seems to have more of a history of grabbing TEs late (5/6 round area). clearly that doesn't necessarily mean anything, but i'd be much less opposed to grabbing a guy further down in the draft, especially because we have so many other needs that trump TE.

[Timbathia]

so.... what should DJ Williams the linebacker's jersey say if we acquired the TE?

"my first step is backwards" or is that too long for the back of a jersey?

[njx9]

"my first step is backwards" or is that too long for the back of a jersey?

maybe, "what, you mean i'm not playing a deep zone on every single play?" but i think it might be longer.

[Timbathia]

maybe, "what, you mean i'm not playing a deep zone on every single play?" but i think it might be longer.

how about "tackles from behind"?

[Cunningham]

how about "tackles from behind"?
how about "i'm much more dangerous off the field than i am on the field because i like to drink and drive"

[Timbathia]

how about "i'm much more dangerous off the field than i am on the field because i like to drink and drive"

sure, but it would become very important to have a HDTV so that you could read it.

[Matthew Jones]

Anyone have thoughts on my first two picks as Denver in the group mock by divisions?

1. DT Marcell Dareus, Alabama*
2. NT Muhammad Wilkerson, Temple*

[Diehard]

Anyone have thoughts on my first two picks as Denver in the group mock by divisions?

1. DT Marcell Dareus, Alabama*
2. NT Muhammad Wilkerson, Temple*

That's some serious attention to the interior DL. Individually, the picks are very solid. Adding two young bulls like that would make many fans very happy.

I'd say the need areas remaining are LB and secondary, but keep an eye open for good value at TE, RB, OG and RT (assuming the mock is still going).

[Matthew Jones]

Third pick ended up being FS Rahim Moore (UCLA.) Still one pick left to complete the rebuilding process.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81ec534b/article/washington-qb-locker-auditions-for-vikings-broncos-titans-up-next?module=HP_headlines

Why?

PS this article is so, so inaccurate on the easiest of levels. Why was this published?

[Timbathia]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81ec534b/article/washington-qb-locker-auditions-for-vikings-broncos-titans-up-next?module=HP_headlines

Why?

PS this article is so, so inaccurate on the easiest of levels. Why was this published?

yeah, where did we get the 12th draft pick from?

[Matthew Jones]

Final Broncos mock:

1. DT Marcell Dareus, Alabama*

2. DT Muhammad Wilkerson, Temple*

2. FS Rahim Moore, UCLA*

3. CB Curtis Brown, Texas

Thoughts?

[njx9]

meh, 3rd would be better spent on the front seven. i firmly believe that if we don't take peterson, we shouldn't be taking a CB in the draft at all. we don't need another guy who may or may not be a dimeback. i also don't like rahim moore, but that's personal, so i can't argue with it in a mock. i'd personally be upset if we didn't address LB once.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

yeah, where did we get the 12th draft pick from?

Apparently we just traded #2 for it straight up. That or this guy is an idiot. Also I really hope we don't give up on Tebow yet. I liked what I saw last season and I really feel he's gonna get better.

[njx9]

i posted it elsewhere, but i don't buy for a second that we're actually looking qb. i think it's smokescreen to either:

1) trade our pick
2) force someone to trade with carolina to get their qb, to guarantee that we'll have whichever player we want on defense.

[jCut]

Final Broncos mock:

1. DT Marcell Dareus, Alabama*

2. DT Muhammad Wilkerson, Temple*

2. FS Rahim Moore, UCLA*

3. CB Curtis Brown, Texas

Thoughts?

Not bad. I really like Brown in the third. Also not a fan of Moore whatsoever.

[SolidGold]

It seems the media is out to tear Tebow down again a year after he was drafted. Elway's comments about the QB situation are interesting, its hard to say if its anything more than smokescreen.

[StrikeAnywhere]

I really REALLY hope it is just a smokescreen. You just can't judge a QB after his rookie season - especially a season that included only 3 starts. He needs an opportunity to go through an offseason and show what he can do before we go and pass judgement.

It comes down to the fact that we don't *know* what we have in him yet. We do know what we have for a defense, however, so that is where the picks should be spent.

This years QB class is kinda weird anyways... I agree with whoever it was I read that said they would hate to be a team that needs a QB this year, because they all have gigantic question marks, I wouldn't bet my franchise on any of them.