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Shiver
05-09-2007, 11:14 PM
I'm not sure we have the volume to surpass the NFC East. But it's worth a try. I might as well be the one to make it, so onto it.

Passing Game

1. New Orleans
2. Tampa Bay
3. Carolina
4. Atlanta


Analysis: This wasn't to hard to figure it out. New Orleans has an MVP caliber QB, a bevy of talented receivers, and a solid O-Line. I think Reggie Bush will make the most improvement this year as a receiver. I think they will incorporate him, more so, in the down the field passing game. Rather than just using him as a safety valve. With another year under his belt, he should be able to create match-up problems down the field. Last year, with the hold out, he wasn't able to be much of a factor in that regard. This can be seen clearly, because his YPC was rather mediocre.

After New Orleans it becomes muddled. Carolina really only has Steve Smith as a weapon. I understand saving money, and going on a 'youth movement' with Dwayne Jarrett. However, I don't think there is a chance he comes close to whatever production Keyshawn Johnson would have provided. I also think they missed out on a chance to add a dynamic TE, in Greg Olsen. The Panthers struggled mightily on obvious passing downs, specifically on 3rd down.

Tampa Bay has the potential to be really solid. They have gradually turned the O-Line from a weakness, to strength, via the draft. The key here is how the Quarterback position unfolds, as well as Michael Clayton. If he reverts to his old level, they will be set. However, if he doesn't, and Joey Galloway's age catches up with him, they could be rather lousy. Then again, as I mentioned, every team after New Orleans could either be solid or terrible.

Atlanta is the most interesting team to follow, when it comes to the passing attack for obvious reasons. Bobby Petrino has made it clear he wants Michael Vick to be more of a passer. He wants running to be the last resort, and for him to hit his check-downs rather than running for it. As I will detail, he will have the opportunity to become the player he should be. It will be up to him to cash in, however. I guarantee you that Atlanta won't have the 32nd ranked passing attack. For the main reason they won't be 32nd in attempts again. How good they will be, is the question. I think the 2-4 rankings in the NFC South are rather fluid. I have to put Atlanta here, at 4th, but here are some reasons for optimism.

To facilitate that, Petrino's offense utilizes the H-Back. The team cut Eric Beverly, and is relying on the winner of a three man competition to provide Michael Vick another target. Since he already likes throwing to Crumpler, adding another TE/H-Back type will only help Petrino's transformation of Michael Vick into a more 'McNabb like' passer. The team also practically added three new Wide Receivers, as well. Joe Horn will provide veteran leadership and reliable hands. The coaching staff loved Laurent Robinson so much; they passed on Michael Bush for him. Hue Jackson compared him to another receiver he tutored, TJ Houshmandzadeh. Indications are he can win the #3 role, over Roddy White and Brian Finneran.

On the O-Line, this is where the Falcons will benefit most from the coaching change. Veterans who played, successfully, under the Reeves regime hated Alex Gibbs' mandate that they should weight under 295-lbs. Kynan Forney, the team's best lineman and pro-bowl snub from '04-'05, credited that for late season breakdowns. The lineman wore down playing at an unnaturally low weight. Now they can all play at their normal weight, above 300-lbs. The team also added Justin Blalock, one of the preeminent Guard prospects in the draft. He will come in and start right away. It's unusual to get an O-Lineman who was that productive, for such a long time, out of college.

Running Game

1. Atlanta
2. New Orleans
3. Carolina
4. Tampa Bay


Analysis: This isn't exactly fair, because Michael Vick gives Atlanta an edge over any team not named Tennessee. Though, Petrino wants him to throw more and run less. Atlanta beefed up the O-Line, added 2nd team all-pro Ovie Mughelli to blow up Linebackers. They may very well notch a fourth consecutive #1 rushing attack. Jerious Norwood is expected to win the starting job over Warrick Dunn, by most experts. He showed tremendous potential last year, and was better as an interior runner than anticipated.

As good as Atlanta's rushing attack is, New Orleans is close. Deuce McAllister, despite the hype of his teammate, is the best RB in the whole division. He runs with power and surprising burst. Reggie Bush may not lend a lot of production on the ground, however, he allows McAllister to be fresh on those interior runs. Bush's problem is he refuses to put his head down and pick up as many yards as possible. Far too many times he tried he 'reverse the field' move, and got clobbered for a loss of yards for no reason. I expect him to play like he did at the end of the year, decent, which was a massive upgrade over his 1st half of the season.

Carolina's rushing attack struggled mightily last year, mostly because the O-Line was ravaged by injuries. However, they stubbornly relied on DeShaun Foster. That was a mistake, because DeAngelo Williams needs to be the team's feature back. I think he will be, with the team's transition into a ZBS. That schematic change will help out, because it fits their talent better. Especially with the athletic lineman they have, including new guy Ryan Kalil, who may have been the steal of the draft. They will improve; I just don't see exponential improvement.

Tampa Bay really have tried to improve the O-Line. I think it will pay out, and it isn't there fault they are in a run heavy division. However, I have serious questions about Carnell Williams. He came out of the gates as a rookie, but he hasn't been able to revert to his first three games level. He has also shown that his durability is lacking. I think Jon Gruden will run him into the ground.

Run Defense


1. Carolina
2. Tampa Bay
3. Atlanta
4. New Orleans


Analysis: Atlanta, Tampa Bay, as well as Carolina did very well last year. They all graded out as top-10 in regards to YPC against, which is my foremost gauge for run defense. All of the teams probably improved, actually. Run defense won’t be a problem for any of them.

Carolina added Jon Beason, which was a big addition. This allows them to no longer rely on Dan Morgan. (Of whom I would strongly suggest he quit before he ruins his life, with another concussion.) Julius Peppers is the premier DE in football, not only just for his pass rushing prowess, but because he is so good against the run. My concern is Kris Jenkins, who allegedly showed up at camp fifty pounds over his playing weight. His lack of work ethic may have been why Carolina tried to get value out of him, via a trade.

Tampa Bay’s run defense was solid last year, and with the additions via the off-season I wouldn’t expect that to change. Kevin Carter, while not the dominant player he was at the turn of the decade, is a solid addition. In the draft I thought the Buccaneers did an excellent job of restocking Monte Kiffin’s defense. They took a bevy of players who are tremendous scheme fits. Greg Peterson was one of my favorite sleepers, and should eventually be refined into a perfect Tampa 2 style 3-Tech.

Atlanta solidified their run defense last year, mostly because of the addition of Grady Jackson. He was named as a Pro Bowl snub by Pro Football Weekly. He was a disruptive force against the interior running attack. Depth behind Jackson is a concern though, as the team has to rely on Darrell Shropshire and Tommy Jackson to further refine their games. Lawyer Milloy is an excellent in the box SS. The Linebackers, especially Michael Boley, have unparallel athleticism, but will struggle if you can get an O-Lineman on them. If they can keep them clean, they are a force in space. The Falcons lost Patrick Kerney, but replaced him with Jamaal Anderson, who is bigger and stronger at the P.O.A.

As for New Orleans, they were terrible last year, 30th actually. They didn’t really improve themselves that much, at least not enough to make a positive impact. They added some help at Linebacker, with Brian Simmons. However, he alone won’t turn around this unit. They will just have to use their offense as the best weapon against opposing running attacks.

Pass Defense


1. Atlanta
2. Carolina
3. Tampa Bay
4. New Orleans


Analysis: This isn’t the division’s strength, not even close. All of the teams have question marks here. Quite frankly, I don’t think any will be exceptional.

Atlanta is relying heavily on the development of Jimmy Williams and Chris Houston. Relying on young players is always a risky proposition in the secondary. Both have tremendous talent; it will be up to Mike Zimmer to break them in. If John Abraham can stay healthy, which is a big if, that would help the young guys until they got their feet wet, so to speak. Mike Zimmer has a history of developing Defensive Backs. Lawyer Milloy will play his role, as a primary run support player. However, his biggest contribution will be to rein in the young guys as a leader.

Carolina has the best corners in the division, but they have lousy safeties. That was their biggest problem last year, and they did nothing to remedy the situation. Richard Marshall was the steal of the draft last year, and I personally think he would be better than Chris Gamble. Ken Lucas, when healthy, is an excellent corner. However, their corners are much better when they get consistent pass rush. Julius Peppers is going to need help from his supporting cast, and I am not sure he will get that much.

Tampa Bay has a strange juxtaposition of youth and age in the same unit. They added several nice rookie prospects, Tanard Jackson and Sabby Piscitelli. So it was obvious they had to address the secondary in the draft. How they play immediately will make or break this unit. Not too unlike Atlanta and New Orleans. What will help a lot is if they can get a consistent pass rush with Gaines Adams and Kevin Carter. The Buccaneers only registered 25 sacks last year. With the new additions and a, hopefully, healthier Simeon Rice, that will help the pass defense.

New Orleans’ pass rush covers up some deficiencies. However their best CB, Mike McKenzie, is really showing his age lately. Once again, they didn’t do enough to fix the defense. Adding small school corners may pan out later on, but expecting them to produce immediately is rather optimistic.

Special Teams

Analysis: Looking at the stats on Football Outsiders, and NFL.com, all of these teams struggled last year on special teams. Since I don’t know much about this facet of the game, and because it fluctuates so much on a yearly basis, I wouldn’t feel right ‘ranking’ them. Safe to say, they all need to improve.

Predictions


1. New Orleans (11-5)
2. Atlanta (9-7)
3. Tampa Bay (8-8)
4. Carolina (6-10)


Analysis: New Orleans' offense will by dynamite. They are going to be the Colts of the NFC. However, with holes in the defensive units, it is going to be extremely difficult for any other team to stop the Saints’ run at a repeat division title. New Orleans will just have to expect to be in a lot of shootouts.

Atlanta has to rely on a lot of rookies, but New Orleans did last year with positive results. The scheme change helps the team, out with the player friendly; losing is “fun adversity” approach of Jim Mora. In comes the stern leadership of Bobby Petrino, Hue Jackson, and Mike Zimmer, who have an old school approach of accountability. The scheme changes actually fit the talent better, as well. The Line change benefits Atlanta’s veteran right side, which was playing out of the comfort level in Gibbs’ system. The man coverage schemes Zimmer employs benefits DeAngelo Hall, and his preference in Linebackers is in line with the athletic group. The key is if Bobby Petrino can get Michael Vick to buy into his system. If so, the sky is the limit. If not, the franchise will have a big decision in ’08.

Tampa Bay is still in a rebuilding phase. With a new batch of players coming in, to replace the old guard on the defensive side of the ball. On offense they have done an admirable job of adding talent to the O-Line. How the young players play, as a cohesive unit, will be important. Joey Galloway has miraculously stayed healthy as of late. His continued health and production, with a return to form for Michael Clayton, is crucial to the offense. The Quarterback competition will be something I will pay keen attention.

Carolina is a team that I am not optimistic about. They haven't really improved this off-season. Jake Delhomme has significant question marks surrounding him. He is a loose cannon on the field, and he held them back last year. They didn't add a weapon to help on 3rd down, where they were pitiful last year. In fact they lost production, in cutting Keyshawn Johnson. He was a great run blocker, and a consistent receiver. Dwayne Jarrett won't be half the player Johnson is, right away in '07 that is. On defense they also have issues, specifically at Safety. However, I don't think their defense will be why they will finish in the bottom half of the league.

Shiver
05-09-2007, 11:15 PM
I think it is safe to say this is my biggest write up ever. I hope I got all the kinks out, but I'm not sure.

bearsfan_51
05-09-2007, 11:16 PM
My prediction: the NFC South will be the 2nd worst division in football next year.

Shiver
05-09-2007, 11:18 PM
My prediction: the NFC South will be the 2nd worst division in football next year.

Maybe on the field. But the records won't indicate that. The NFC South has the collectively easiest schedule, from a S.O.S standpoint. Not that '06 W-L prorated means all that much. I think New Orleans has a lousy defense, and the other three teams all have BOOM/BUST potential. They will either be lousy, or surprisingly good.

fenikz
05-09-2007, 11:18 PM
beind the nfc north i agree that it will be the worst division, except i for see the panthers winning it

Flyboy
05-09-2007, 11:24 PM
Goddamnit, I can't give you anymore rep points, Shiver. Anyhow... fantastic, fantastic read. Once I finish watching these episodes of Frasier I'll respond with my analysis.

cunningham06
05-09-2007, 11:25 PM
I wasn't going to click on it, but it is a MEGAthread.

bearsfan_51
05-09-2007, 11:27 PM
Maybe on the field. But the records won't indicate that. The NFC South has the collectively easiest schedule, from a S.O.S standpoint. Not that '06 W-L prorated means all that much. I think New Orleans has a lousy defense, and the other three teams all have BOOM/BUST potential. They will either be lousy, or surprisingly good.
I actually think the NFC West is going to outplay the South next year. I dunno who the AFC division they play is, so if it's the East or the South that may help a little.

Chucky
05-09-2007, 11:28 PM
Just so u guys no, for the past few years, the last place team has jumped up to first the following year. Going by that that Division winner would be :

Tampa YAY ( this is kind of pathetic isnt it)

Shiver
05-09-2007, 11:28 PM
The NFC South will play the NFC West and AFC South. That's why the NFC South has such an easy S.O.S. Now I am not ready to agree with you that the West will outplay them. However, I think it could happen.

Shiver
05-09-2007, 11:30 PM
Just so u guys no, for the past few years, the last place team has jumped up to first the following year. Going by that that Division winner would be :

Tampa YAY ( this is kind of pathetic isnt it)

The problem with that theory is it seems that only New Orleans is set up to win now. Barring unforeseen circumstances, the other three teams seem to be in a rebuilding ebb. Of course things will change, and we all will be wrong. But as of this moment, I cannot say with any confidence that the Bucs, Falcons, or Panthers will be successful next year. At least we know New Orleans. We have tangible proof of what they are, as a football team. The other teams just have question marks that no one has the answers to.

Flyboy
05-10-2007, 12:44 AM
Again, great review Shiver.

I really think that the NFC South is the Saints' to lose. With as many weapons we possess on offense (not to mention adding a few new playmakers) it really is going to be hard for teams in the division to keep up with us. I don't get the feeling that Sean Payton is trying to copy the Indianapolis Colts' blueprint for success, but it's hard to ignore that we're a highly offensive-orientated team. Anyhow, moving on to some points you made:

I'm not going to rag on you for giving the edge to Atlanta in the running game even if you cheated to do so (I think you basically just conceded that Vick = a runningback ;)). But, seriously, the Saints' running game should be even better than last season -- with the ACL injury that McAllister suffered it usually takes two seasons to fully recover from an injury of that magnitude and with that said, he still accounted over 1000 yards last season. I really think DeAngelo Williams is going to break out this season -- him and that ZBS is a match made in heaven and if stays healthy for a full season then watch out. Rather than the Panthers trying to force feed to Steve Smith constantly (no matter how great of a player he is), Williams is going to be key for them to succeed this year and attempt to make a playoff push. As for Tampa Bay, well this year should indicate whether or not Williams' rookie season was a fluke or not. Personally, I think he's a talented back and last season wasn't his fault at all but we'll see.

Just a note on the Saints' pass defense -- Jason David is an immediate upgrade over Fred Thomas. With Thomas' age and declining speed, he's much better suited for the nickel spot however he started last year and in the later part of the season he was basically a big play waiting to happen. The big worry of David is that coming from a Cover 2 will he be able to be effective in our man schemes that we rely on and I don't personally think it'll be an issue. He's there to line up against the likes of Steve Smith's & Joey Galloway's to try to prevent the big plays. And perhaps the biggest addition to our defense isn't really an addition at all, but if Roman Harper returns healthy then it would do wonders for our secondary and defense as a whole. Harper basically became the captain of our defense and made sure that everyone was lined up correctly. He's essential to our defense.

That definitely wasn't as in-depth as I wanted it, but I'm tired and it's late. I'll add more later.

Caddy
05-10-2007, 01:21 AM
Great post Shiver. A seemingly unbiased post which is truthful in most regards.

But I think you give Tampa's passing attack too much credit and it's run attack not enough.

Shiver
05-10-2007, 01:45 AM
Yeah you're probably right. Although, I will say the passing game 2-4 slots are very hard to peg. So you know, I have Tampa Bay and Carolina very close when it comes to the ground attack.

wogitalia
05-10-2007, 02:14 AM
Personally I like Carolina. I expect that Jarrett is going to be good, quite possibly Colston good. If he is and the line stays healthy, they have the parts. Smith and Jarrett are both big play guys, DeAngelo can also hit a home run. Coaching may actually be their biggest problem.

Shiver
05-10-2007, 02:18 AM
Jarrett has two flaws;


1. Physicality at the L.O.S
2. Blocking


That is almost the antithesis of Keyshawn Johnson. I think he will struggle, initially, against press coverage. At the least, he is a massive downgrade at blocking.

Flyboy
05-10-2007, 02:34 AM
Personally I like Carolina. I expect that Jarrett is going to be good, quite possibly Colston good. If he is and the line stays healthy, they have the parts. Smith and Jarrett are both big play guys, DeAngelo can also hit a home run. Coaching may actually be their biggest problem.

I actually think inconsistent quarterback play will be the downfall of Carolina rather than coaching.

awfullyquiet
05-10-2007, 02:58 AM
mike minter hasn't retired yet...
to say that carolina's safeties are downright sucky may be a little overstatement... he's lost a step, but shouldn't be beat deep that often. now shaun lalley (or whatever his name was) missed tackles like crazy and was caught out of position.

okay, the more i think about it, i guess you're probably right, safety really is their biggest weakness.

JustJoe2k5
05-10-2007, 06:11 AM
I think the Panthers' running game will be much more improved than last year. DeAngelo Williams has stated that the new offense is identical to the offense he was in at Memphis. While Williams was excited about the new offense DeShaun Foster didn't say a word, which leads me to believe that Williams will be our #1. You mentioned the upgraded offensive line, there are now rumors that Joe Andruzzi may be signed due to his friendship with Jeff Davidson.

I think the new offensive coordinator will do wonders for the entire team. Jake Delhomme hasn't had a consistent running game since the last half of the '04 season, which also happened to be his Pro Bowl season. With DeAngelo Williams as our #1, better play-calling, and the ZBS, I think our entire offense will be much better.

diabsoule
05-10-2007, 08:48 AM
Again, Shiv, I have to give credit where credit is due.

I will write a more in-depth analysis of the division later but for now I will hit on just a few bullet points.

- Outside of any other teams in the division, Atlanta initially shows the most room for improvement. I felt they highly underperformed last year even though they had the talent to compete. The biggest question mark I find on the team is not if Chris Houston can step up, or if Jerious Norwoood can stay healthy for a full season, but it is going to be Bobby Petrino's transition from a college coach to a NFL coach. If the transition is successful, then Atlanta will make vast improvements and compete with New Orleans for the division crown. If not, then...

- I still do not think Tampa Bay has done enough for them to become competitors in the division yet. They had a solid draft but success comes down to quarterback play and I do not have confidence in Chris Simm's leading this team to the playoffs. While they have made strides in improving their offensive line, I do not think they have rebuilt it enough to protect Simms. I do like the moves the defensive players chosen in this years draft, however, I feel that if Gruden does not post a winning record this year then it will be his last in sunny Florida.

- Carolina is another team with a fantastic draft and they addressed numerous holes their team had, however, the release of Keyshawn Johnson will be their downfall. In my opinion Johnson was key in the development of Dwayne Jarrett and without KJ there it is really going to stunt the growth of their second round pick. As with every team not named New Orleans in the division, the quarterback play of Delhomme is key to their success and if he continues playing erratically then this team will post the same record it did last year and David Carr will enter as the future. One thing that really concerns me is their safety play, especially going against the high powered New Orleans offense.

ricky bobby
05-10-2007, 08:53 AM
It's a MEGATHREAD, so you know it's good.

portermvp84
05-10-2007, 09:43 AM
1. Saints
2. Carolina
3. Falcons
4. Tampa Bay

Saints are a SB caliber team, they showed no matter who you have you can still win. Sean Payton really turned around this team last year. I thought they were going to the SB last year they have an awesome chance on going next year. Drew Brees has all the weapons including his newest aditions Mechem and Eric Johnson. The Panthers will finsihg second they still have a good defense and a good ofense. They also had a good draft by adding DJ anf Ryan Kalil to their offense. The loss of Keyshawn won't affect them very much.


The falcons I really don't know about them. I thought last year they were going to finish 2nd behind Carolina at the begining of the season. And it went all down hill from there. Vick was not insink wit the team, he just wasn't playing like the franchise QB he was.


Tampa Bay will do better this year, they'll still finsh last but they will have a better defense by adding Ryan Simms and Gaines Adams. I'm looking for the Bucs to have a more productive year.

bored of education
05-10-2007, 09:46 AM
megaprops to Shiver

JPF
05-10-2007, 10:24 AM
mike minter hasn't retired yet...
to say that carolina's safeties are downright sucky may be a little overstatement... he's lost a step, but shouldn't be beat deep that often. now shaun lalley (or whatever his name was) missed tackles like crazy and was caught out of position.

okay, the more i think about it, i guess you're probably right, safety really is their biggest weakness.

Safety is Carolina's biggest weakness. Minter is slower, and not as good in run support as he once was. He's also gotten worse in coverage, which was never his strong point. I lost any faith I had in him last year when he literally stood there, 5 yards away, and watched Ken Lucas who was struggling with injuries try to tackle TO. I mean, literally...he freaking stood there and watched.

The guy you're thinking of from last year was Shaun Williams, who hasn't been re-signed. If anything, we've downgraded at that spot with Deke Cooper, Nate Salley, and Cam Newton competing for that starting job.

etk
05-10-2007, 10:56 AM
I agree that the division is for the Saints to lose. They have dynamic playmakers on offense and the right system to utilise them effectively. I expect them to focus on getting the ball to Reggie & Deuce because their receivers have poor hands. That could be a problem in close games. I can't see them losing this division unless major injuries occur, which is always possible.

Atlanta is an improving team but I'm not sure how well-suited their personnel is for the new Petrino system in place. They did a great job in the draft however, and Justin Blalock should be a solid starter from Day One. A plethora of talented young players equates to a bright future for Atlanta. The only question is how long will it be until that potential is reached.

Carolina is a team on the decline. It all starts at the quarterback position, where Jake Delhomme is decent at best. He needs a strong supporting cast of weapons, and Steve Smith is not enough on his own. Carolina still lacks an impact TE in the passing game or an H-Back that can be a safety valve. Both RBs have durability concerns so I think Carolina has a chance at imploding and finishing last in the division. Some of their defensive players are on the decline as well.

Tampa Bay is filled with question marks all over the field. They have plenty of role players and solid depth but lack playmakers and game-changers on both sides of the ball. The offense will be inconsistent and frustrating but the pass rush should improve with better speed on defense. Contrary to Shiver's rankings, I think Tampa Bay's strength will be their pass defense while the run defense will not be as effective. An improved pass rush will make life easier for the defensive backs, and Cato June will team up with Derrick Brooks for underneath coverage on passing downs.

Predictions:

New Orleans: 10-6
Atlanta: 8-8
Tampa Bay: 8-8
Carolina: 6-10

Draft King
05-10-2007, 11:47 AM
Great read, I'll comment later.

etk
05-10-2007, 05:14 PM
How about Coaching? How would you rank the Coaching Staffs of the respective teams Shiver?

Here's mine:

1. New Orleans: Sean Payton is everything you look for in a HC and he calls his own plays. Gary Gibbs did a fair job in improving the defense with mediocre talent.

2. Tampa Bay: Chucky prepares for a game like none other but his recent offensive playcalling has been questionable. Monte Kiffin runs one of the best defensive systems in the league and does it on a consistent basis.

3. Atlanta: Bobby Petrino expects precision from his team and I give him credit for implementing changes to suit his expectations. Time will tell how much his college success will translate to the pro game. Mike Zimmer specializes in stopping the run so I'd expect an improvement in that department.

4. Carolina: John Fox runs his defenses consistently well. Jeff Davidson will look to make the Panthers into a smash-mouth offense but I question his experience and creativity if he calls their plays. Fox is a good coach and based on his previous successes this may seem low to rank Carolina but I have doubts about their co-ordinators.

Shiver
05-10-2007, 05:27 PM
Funny you should mention that. Three of the head coaches are among those whom Al Davis' had targeted for the Raiders job. He has a great track record when it comes to finding offensive geniuses.

bigbuc
05-10-2007, 07:52 PM
Its a joke that you say Tampa Bay will finish last in the division with there rushing game. Last year we could not run at all due to a number of reasons, first being that we had not one but two O-lineman that were rookies, Second the defense could not stop my mom from hitting a 20 yard pass down field and last but not least. WE HAD A ROOKIE 6th ROUND QB, SO WHO DO YOU THINK THEY ARE GOING TO STOP? HIM OR THE GUY WHO RAN FOR A THOUSAND YARDS THE YEAR BEFORE... just asking.

My prediction is Tampa Bay will be second, yes second, in the division in rushing. Our o-line is stacked with 1st and 2nd round picks not to mention we picked up a very good left tackle in the off season... and if you don't think hes that good just ask Tiki, what he only rushed for 3200 yards the last two years or Eli. Wait I think hes still getting up from being KO'd after Luke broke his leg!!!

diabsoule
05-10-2007, 08:12 PM
NFC South Write-Up:

Offense:

Passing game:

New Orleans
Atlanta
Carolina
Tampa Bay

New Orleans caught everyone by surprise last year with their potent offense. Newly acquired quarterback Drew Brees provided stable, and unflappable, leadership that the Saints were desperately missing when Aaron Brooks was under center. 7th Round surprise Marques Colston proved to be a diamond in the rough and Terrance Copper showed that he was capable of filling in for an injured Joe Horn. Devery Henderson even stepped up his game and became a home run threat. Joe Horn, when he was not injured, provided his usual stable game as well as providing leadership. Although the Saints let Horn go in free agency this year, they drafted the highly-touted Robert Meachem who fill in at the #2 position opposite Colston. Add in the versatile Reggie Bush and New Orleans has one of the most explosive offenses in the NFC South, and possibly in the NFL behind only Indianapolis and now after free agency, New England.

Atlanta brought in a head coach who is known for making his offenses as uncomplicated as possible, which should help out Michael Vick tremendously. Vick is not a WCO guy and Petrino seems to be smart enough to know that. The dirty Birds also brought in veteran wide receiver Joe Horn to hopefully provide the leadership that was lacking in the receiving corps. I think that while Michael Vick won't become a precise passer under Petrino, he will be much improved. He has multiple receivers that are extremely talented and if Bobby P. can get them to perform at the level they are capable of then Atlanta will have a much improved offense in general.

It seems as though Carolina's only weapon on offense is Steve Smith. While he is tremendously talented, he can not be the only that makes plays against opposing defenses. Dwayne Jarrett was drafted to give Delhomme another target but that is a lot of pressure to put on a rookie. They also made a huge mistake when they released Keyshawn Johnson. Not only could he have helped tutor Jarrett and help him transition from college to the NFL, but Carolina has no one on their roster who is capable of filling the void left by Keyshawn's departure.

Tampa Bay has all the potential in the world to have a good passing game but they are relying on the re-emergence of Michael Clayton as a receiver as well as the hope that Joey Galloway does not start showing his age. Another concern is how Chris Simm's bounces back from having an appendectomy. Their offensive line was in shambles last year and even though they added a very good talent in Arron Sears in the draft and Luke Petitgout in free agency, it still remains to be seen how improved their offensive line is.

Running game:

New Orleans
Atlanta
Carolina
Tampa Bay

While Michael Vick gives Atlanta and edge in the running game, teams have shown that they are capable of containing him. There is also the evidence that shows that even with Vick's ability to make plays with his feet, Atlanta can not continually win by just relying upon Vick to make plays. So, with that said, New Orleans emerges as the No. 1 team with a running game. Deuce McAllister has shown that he is capable of being a very productive back while sharing carries. Reggie Bush adds another dimension to the running game by having the ability to get to the outside, and with the addition of Antonio Pittman it gives New Orleans not only an improvement over Aaron Stecker but also provides them with an extra dimension in the running game.

With what I said about Atlanta, they come in a very close second to New Orleans. Warrick Dunn has been very consistent and productive over time, and with the emergence of Jerious Norwood last year, along with Vicks' ability to make plays places Atlanta in the second spot.

Carolina is moving to a ZBS which should help out their running game a whole lot. DeShaun Foster is a good back when healthy and DeAngelo Williams is the future of the franchise and is a very good back in his own right.

Tampa Bay is the only team in the division without a multi-back backfield and that limits their ability to keep defenses off guard. Carnell Williams has not shown so far that he can live up to his rookie year numbers and behind him they have very little solid depth. Mike Alstott is a good blocker and also a good runner but he is way up there in years and his productivity has started to show that he is on the decline. As said about their passing game, the success of Tampa's running game hinges on the ability of their offensive line and if they struggle this year like they did last year then Tampa's whole offense will be just as dismal.

Run defense & Pass defense:

Everything Shiver said is true. I can't argue with him and the way he ranks the teams are the way I rank them.

Coaching:

New Orleans
Carolina
Atlanta
Tampa Bay

Sean Payton was brilliant last year as far as his schemes and play-calling were concerned. In his first year as a Head Coach he led the Saints to their first ever NFC Championship game and by doing so it won him Coach of the Year honors. Time will tell if he was only a one year wonder or if he can continue his success.

John Fox is a very capable head coach, although it seems that his ability to motivate his players is lacking. The Panthers have a new OC and he is looking to improve the running game and I firmly expect that Jeff Davidson is capable of that. The Panthers also re-stocked their defense which gives underrated defensive coordinator Mike Trgovac more toys to play with.

Bobby Petrino has moved from the college ranks to the pro's and his style of offense relies heavily on precision. If he can get Michael Vick to improve as a passer then this team will be met with a lot of success, if not, then in a few years Petrino might be shown the door like numerous recent college coaches who have bolted for the NFL. I do like what he has done so far and I think his style of coaching will translate well but only time will tell.

After Jon “Chucky” Gruden's Super Bowl win, the team has done nothing but regressed. It was heavily rumored last year that he was on the hot seat, and that rumor seems to have bled over to this year. If Chucky doesn't boast a winning record this year I think his days in sunny Florida will be over. He does have one of the best defensive coordinator's working for him in Monte Kiffin but the Bucs defense is not the main problem, it is their offense. It is up to Gruden to get that straightened out and if he can't he will probably be shown the door.

Prediction
New Orleans (11-5)
Carolina (9-7)
Atlanta (8-8)
Tampa Bay (6-10)

Conclusion

I feel that New Orleans will once again be on top the NFC South and this is only due to Atlanta having a first year head coach, and I think there will be some growing pains with that offense. Carolina should bounce back from last year, and even though it may seem I've been a bit rough on Tampa Bay I will say that they have the talent, especially on defense, but I think it all comes down to coaching.

etk
05-10-2007, 09:27 PM
Its a joke that you say Tampa Bay will finish last in the division with there rushing game. Last year we could not run at all due to a number of reasons, first being that we had not one but two O-lineman that were rookies, Second the defense could not stop my mom from hitting a 20 yard pass down field and last but not least. WE HAD A ROOKIE 6th ROUND QB, SO WHO DO YOU THINK THEY ARE GOING TO STOP? HIM OR THE GUY WHO RAN FOR A THOUSAND YARDS THE YEAR BEFORE... just asking.

My prediction is Tampa Bay will be second, yes second, in the division in rushing. Our o-line is stacked with 1st and 2nd round picks not to mention we picked up a very good left tackle in the off season... and if you don't think hes that good just ask Tiki, what he only rushed for 3200 yards the last two years or Eli. Wait I think hes still getting up from being KO'd after Luke broke his leg!!!

Cadillac is injury prone and we don't have multiple options like the other teams, it's as simple as that. I'd be happy if we finished 3rd ahead of Carolina but we won't exceed Atlanta or New Orleans.

iloxygenil
05-10-2007, 10:09 PM
This is a great thread, and lets bump up that post count to catch up with the other divisions lol. The only problem I see with this thread is there's not a whole lot to argue about lol. Shiver is so unhomeristic it's not even fun =) But I have to say I agree with most of it. I am more optimistic in hoping that our rookies pan out, but that's because I saw what New Orleans did last year with a new offensive minded genius for a coach, and some new weapons to work with, I'm hoping that Bobby P can do the same thing. I'm sure it's going to take more than a year to figure this division out. Also this is the toughest division in football, at least in the division, and there's a reason we rep the NFC in the NFC Championship Game / Super Bowl EVERY year. That's not going to be changing, we just have to hope that we can quit beating each other up so bad during the season that whoever wins can actually be 100% at the Super Bowl, so we can dominate the world!

iloxygenil
05-10-2007, 10:12 PM
Oh yeah, I did disagree with 1 thing, I think Atlanta's run defense was underrated, considering we were playing with so many injuries, we had the same DEs we have now, EXCEPT we upgraded them with 2 starters returning. Abe > Carrington and Anderson > Davis. I like both Carrington and Davis, but having those guys as our starters and playing such significant time really hurt our rush defense, which was still very good. As far as Grady Jackson goes, if he comes back and plays with the team, there wasn't a better DT in football last year. He led the league in Tackles for loss and there's a reason he wants a bigger contract...he earned it.

Shiver
05-10-2007, 10:52 PM
This is a great thread, and lets bump up that post count to catch up with the other divisions lol. The only problem I see with this thread is there's not a whole lot to argue about lol. Shiver is so unhomeristic it's not even fun =)


Yeah, I know. By the way I don't think "unhomeristic" is a word. http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif Though, it would be different if this board had more Panthers' fans. Then again, it's hard to call me out when I don't have Atlanta doing anything outrageously good.

Caddy
05-11-2007, 08:17 AM
There are some pretty delusional Buc fans on this web site if I do say so myself.

diabsoule
05-11-2007, 10:42 AM
There are some pretty delusional Buc fans on this web site if I do say so myself.

I agree. It is one thing to be optimistic about your team's future but most of the time their optimism borders on delusion.

Shiver
05-11-2007, 02:36 PM
Every team has a handful of delusional fans that make them all look worse than they actually are.

Flyboy
05-11-2007, 02:42 PM
Super Bowl or bust~!!! ;)

iloxygenil
05-11-2007, 03:03 PM
Horn still has some game left...after watching the videos on AF.com...I am VERY excited to have him out there. The way he snatches the ball out of thin air with his hands and doesn't let it even get close to his body is incredible. Vick's arm was obviously more impressive than anyone else's out there too.

They obviously don't show much, but man, what I saw got me hype about watching some Falcons football!

Flyboy
05-11-2007, 03:06 PM
Horn still has some game left...after watching the videos on AF.com...I am VERY excited to have him out there. The way he snatches the ball out of thin air with his hands and doesn't let it even get close to his body is incredible. Vick's arm was obviously more impressive than anyone else's out there too.

They obviously don't show much, but man, what I saw got me hype about watching some Falcons football!

Yeah, Horn is one of the better sure-handed catchers in the league... however, the wear and tear on his body... I just don't see him holding up for a full season for the Falcons. But, the knowledge he brings to their young WR's will be vital although he still can't catch the balls for them.

Shiver
05-11-2007, 03:46 PM
Yeah, Horn is one of the better sure-handed catchers in the league... however, the wear and tear on his body... I just don't see him holding up for a full season for the Falcons. But, the knowledge he brings to their young WR's will be vital although he still can't catch the balls for them.

I think Joe Horn will help out Michael Vick just as much, if not more so, than the young receivers. He will help the whole offense, actually.

Flyboy
05-11-2007, 03:55 PM
Oh, I agree. Horn gives Vick another target to throw to on third downs rather than just Crumpler and Horn is highly dependable of making big catches and keep drives alive. Especially with Finnernan coming back I expect the Falcons' passing attack to be improved -- the key is how quickly Vick is able to pick up Petrino's offense.

diabsoule
05-11-2007, 04:40 PM
Oh, I agree. Horn gives Vick another target to throw to on third downs rather than just Crumpler and Horn is highly dependable of making big catches and keep drives alive. Especially with Finnernan coming back I expect the Falcons' passing attack to be improved -- the key is how quickly Vick is able to pick up Petrino's offense.

Great points. How successful Atlanta will be ultimately rests on the arm of Michael Vick. The team, especially the offense, is very talented, and with the additions they made through the draft on defense it really upgrades that side of the ball too. Any which way, it will be very interesting to see the first New Orleans/Atlanta game since I know Atlanta wants to avenge the losses from last year and now there is the added excitement of having Joe Horn as a Falcon and returning to play against New Orleans in the SuperDome.

Shiver
05-11-2007, 05:56 PM
Not so much just on the field. I think he can get through to Michael Vick, take him under his wings, and critique him when he needs to do something differently. Whereas Jenkins, White, Lelie wouldn't do that last year.

Flyboy
05-11-2007, 06:04 PM
If only he could help Vick with off the field problems as well.

iloxygenil
05-11-2007, 06:05 PM
I am anxious to see how the New Orleans fans react to Joe coming back to that dome. I also am excited to see what kinda insider info Joe will have for the Falcons to come after that nasty offense New Orleans has. That game could be a LOT of fun, depending on how rookies pan out for the birds =)

Flyboy
05-11-2007, 06:36 PM
Man, with Sean Payton's playcalling Joe could tell Zimmer to prepare for something and get something totally different. As to Joe's reaction, I expect to hear plenty of boos mixed with a few cheers when he returns.

diabsoule
05-11-2007, 07:40 PM
I think Sean Payton is going to give every single team he faces this year a few different looks especially now with the addition of Antonio Pittman. I expect to see Reggie used in the slot more, or split to the side with Pittman and Deuce in the backfield. Also with a tight end who can actually do something in Eric Johnson to give Brees a security blanket, there are endless possibilities for this offense.

I have also heard that Gary Gibbs is going to install a new defense for this season. We shall see how that works or if it's just smoke being blown.

Caddy
05-11-2007, 07:44 PM
The Saints offense sure is going to be scary this year. If their defense can get its act together then they will have the ability to downright dominate.

Shiver
05-11-2007, 07:47 PM
The Saints offense sure is going to be scary this year. If their defense can get its act together then they will have the ability to downright dominate.

Indy of the NFC....

Caddy
05-11-2007, 07:50 PM
Indy of the NFC....

For our sakes, lets hope not.

Shiver
05-11-2007, 07:51 PM
For our sakes, lets hope not.

Well, to be fair, all three of our teams are much better than the bottom three in the AFC South. Indianapolis wins by default. New Orleans will have a much tougher task.

Caddy
05-11-2007, 07:54 PM
Well, to be fair, all three of our teams are much better than the bottom three in the AFC South. Indianapolis wins by default. New Orleans will have a much tougher task.

Either way, having an NFC Colts in our division will not be a good thing for our respective teams.

Ewing
05-11-2007, 07:57 PM
Since the inception of the NFC South the team that finishes in last place wins the division the next year. This has happened EVERY year. So my pick is Tampa Bay.

Caddy
05-11-2007, 08:01 PM
Since the inception of the NFC South the team that finishes in last place wins the division the next year. This has happened EVERY year. So my pick is Tampa Bay.

Well I'm pretty sure that makes us a lock for Division Champion then :D.

iloxygenil
05-11-2007, 08:05 PM
LOL. For some reason I wouldn't be too shocked. I could see Garcia coming in and pimpin it pretty big time and makin something happen.

Flyboy
05-11-2007, 08:18 PM
Okay, I'm not used to everyone hyping us up so let's please stop it. :)

SchizophrenicBatman
05-11-2007, 09:32 PM
The only guarentee I'll make about the NFC South this year is that the Saints will not win it.

Giving them the division by virtue of all the others team seemingly being in rebuilding modes is asinine. Remember last year, when the Saints sucked and the Panthers were going to go undefeated? Didn't work out that well, huh?

The Saints vastly outperformed their record last year and the Falcons and Panthers both vastly underperformed theirs. The Saints' defense is still questionable and their linebackers still suck. They can build up their offense all they want, because the rest of the NFC South has pretty stout defenses. I don't remember offhand how they fared against the Falcons or Bucs, but they lost both games to the Panthers last year, even though the second was more of a tie through the first quarter then the Saints sent in all their backups.

The Panthers did just fine with Steve Smith and no one else two years ago; I don't see why it's that big of a deal to toss Keyshawn out. I won't argue that his production is easily replaced, but I will argue that he was not a solution to Carolina's problems. As you said, the Panthers finished last in 3rd downs last year. Keyshawn Johnson was on the Panthers last year. He can't do everything himself, but if he was that big of a target for 3rd downs and TDs, the teams' stats wouldn't be that bad. With a new offensive coordinator the Panthers will actually have tight ends/H-backs catching more than 20 balls a year, so his production can be siphoned into Jeff King, Dante Rosario, Steve Smith and whoever the 2nd WR ends up being. Not to mention, the running game won't be as anemic with a ZBS scheme better fit for not only the running backs but also the linemen.

The largest problem for the Panthers last year was special teams. Whether it be Gamble's guffaw against the Vikings, essentially turning a guarenteed win into a guarenteed loss, or the fact that they averaged like 2 yards per punt return. John Fox likes to play field position. Sucking at third down conversions and punt/kick returns will mess up his gameplan pretty bad. Drafting Ryne Robinson and discovering that Nick Goings can perform adequately at kick returns late last season will fix this while the 3rd down thing is more of a coaching/emphasis thing than a players you have thing (go read Football Outsiders for more on this).

The last thing I will touch on with the Panthers. 2006 Offensive Line: Jordan Gross, Mike Wahle with one arm (played injured), Geoff Hangartner, Evan Mathis/Will Montgomery, Jeremy Bridges

2007 Projected Offensive Line: Travelle Wharton, Mike Wahle, Ryan Kalil, Jeff Hartwig, Jordan Gross with all the players not accounted for above as backups and possibly Joe Andruzzi being brought in.

I really don't know who I like in the South this year, because the Falcons are too much of a question mark with a new coach (I do like their defense this year, with Abraham playing more and Jimmy Williams at safety. I just hope Petrino doesnt mess up the offense too bad. Sure the midget Oline was terrible at pass protection but Norwood was all set to take over for Dunn) and the Bucs have a big hole to dig out of, but there's just no way the Saints win it. I didnt even pick my team last year when everyone else was so no way I take them now...

I'm starting to just babble incoherently now so, without any further ado, my completely wrong prediction for 07:

Falcons 10-6 (Division Champs)
Panthers 10-6 (WC)
Bucs 8-8
Saints 7-9

easy schedule makes the teams look better than they are, except for the Saints who suffer from bad luck and the NFC South division winner curse

Shiver
05-11-2007, 09:40 PM
Alright, finally! I'm tired of people agreeing with me.

SchizophrenicBatman
05-11-2007, 09:45 PM
Half the reason I wrote up that rant was because this thread had too much circle-jerking going on. I have no logical argument against the Saints (well, not so much against the Saints, but for anyone else), but I truly do not believe they will repeat as champs

:)

Shiver
05-11-2007, 09:52 PM
I look at it this way; Tampa Bay, Carolina, Atlanta all have question marks surrounding their offenses. It's generally accepted that all three will be at least solid on defense. Whomever can answer all the questions on offense, and surprise people, has a real shot to win the division. It's just that at this moment, it's a crap shoot.

SchizophrenicBatman
05-11-2007, 09:55 PM
If I had some sort of assurance that Petrino's system wasn't another gimmick that won't work in the NFL I'd put money down on the Falcons to win the division. Unfortunately, I don't have that so it is indeed pretty much up in the air. I think the Saints have as many questions on defense as the rest of the division has on offense, however. They have two damn good DEs and...what?

Shiver
05-11-2007, 09:58 PM
If I had some sort of assurance that Petrino's system wasn't another gimmick that won't work in the NFL I'd put money down on the Falcons to win the division. Unfortunately, I don't have that so it is indeed pretty much up in the air. I think the Saints have as many questions on defense as the rest of the division has on offense, however. They have two damn good DEs and...what?

Well Petrino was an Offensive Coordinator in the NFL for a year, then was an OC in the SEC, so it wasn't just a gimmick offense dominating the Big East. Tom Coughlin said he had was the "best play-caller" he's ever known. He crafted the Falcons' '07 playbook with Cincinnati Bengals' former WR coach Hue Jackson. So take that for what it's worth.

d34ng3l021
05-11-2007, 10:18 PM
This thread makes too much sense. Theres something wrong. Where are all the homers and Vick haters?!??!!??!

etk
05-11-2007, 10:28 PM
For the most part the Bucs fans on this site are more pessimistic than they should be, including myself. I think some of them are delusional about our draft picks, like saying Gaines Adams will be better than Rice, Piscitelli will be the next Lynch, etc. A lot of fans seem to have the same syndrome where they think that every single one of their draft picks will reach their maximum potential. I guess this can be contributed to the fact that they haven't played yet so it's easy to have false expectations but the truth is that few draft picks stick around after 3-4 years.

Overrated Bucs players on this site:

Michael Clayton (sometimes)
Jeremy Trueblood
Brian Kelly

Underrated Bucs:

Chris Simms (I overrate him to compensate)
Alex Smith
Ellis Wyms
Barrett Ruud (only by a few)
Jermaine Phillips

The underrated outweigh the overrated. I don't really understand where 24cadillac24 gets the idea that Bucs fans on this site are delusional. Most of us think we will reach a maximum of 9 wins this season with 7-9 being the greatest possibility.

Beans
05-11-2007, 10:40 PM
This thread needs less sensibility.

BUCS GO 16-0!!
EVERYTONE ELSE 0-16!!!!

TMAPA BAY 4 LEIFFFF

Phrost
05-11-2007, 11:05 PM
Sep. 09 LOSS at Seattle 4:15 PM FOX
Sep. 16 LOSS NEW ORLEANS 1:00 PM FOX
Sep. 23 LOSS ST. LOUIS 1:00 PM FOX
Sep. 30 LOSS at Carolina 4:05 PM FOX
Oct. 07 LOSS at Indianapolis 4:05 PM FOX
Oct. 14 LOSS TENNESSEE 1:00 PM CBS
Oct. 21 WIN at Detroit 1:00 PM FOX
Oct. 28 LOSS JACKSONVILLE 4:05 PM CBS
Nov. 04 LOSS ARIZONA 1:00 PM FOX
Nov. 11 BYE WEEK
Nov. 18 WIN at Atlanta 1:00 PM FOX
Nov. 25 WIN WASHINGTON 1:00 PM FOX
Dec. 02 LOSS at New Orleans 1:00 PM FOX
Dec. 09 LOSS at Houston 1:00 PM FOX
Dec. 16 LOSS ATLANTA 1:00 PM FOX
Dec. 23 LOSS at San Francisco 8:15 PM WFLA-TV
Dec. 30 WIN CAROLINA 1:00 PM FOX

4-12 sucks.
P.S. Pessimist view.

d34ng3l021
05-11-2007, 11:28 PM
This thread needs less sensibility.

BUCS GO 16-0!!
EVERYTONE ELSE 0-16!!!!

TMAPA BAY 4 LEIFFFF

Yessss. This is what I'm talking about.


Michael Vick is the best QB in the league!!!!!1111!

Caddy
05-12-2007, 12:11 AM
For the most part the Bucs fans on this site are more pessimistic than they should be, including myself. I think some of them are delusional about our draft picks, like saying Gaines Adams will be better than Rice, Piscitelli will be the next Lynch, etc. A lot of fans seem to have the same syndrome where they think that every single one of their draft picks will reach their maximum potential. I guess this can be contributed to the fact that they haven't played yet so it's easy to have false expectations but the truth is that few draft picks stick around after 3-4 years.

Overrated Bucs players on this site:

Michael Clayton (sometimes)
Jeremy Trueblood
Brian Kelly

Underrated Bucs:

Chris Simms (I overrate him to compensate)
Alex Smith
Ellis Wyms
Barrett Ruud (only by a few)
Jermaine Phillips

The underrated outweigh the overrated. I don't really understand where 24cadillac24 gets the idea that Bucs fans on this site are delusional. Most of us think we will reach a maximum of 9 wins this season with 7-9 being the greatest possibility.

You are twisting my words mate. Read the post by BucBoy or whatever his name is name is. I never said all Buccaneer fans are delusional. We have some which I clearly stated and you even touched on it with your rant about comparing Piscitelli to Lynch.

I am not a pessimistic fan, nor am I an optimistic fan. I like to think that I am a realistic fan.

BlindSite
05-12-2007, 01:55 AM
I look at it this way; Tampa Bay, Carolina, Atlanta all have question marks surrounding their offenses. It's generally accepted that all three will be at least solid on defense. Whomever can answer all the questions on offense, and surprise people, has a real shot to win the division. It's just that at this moment, it's a crap shoot.

It might be a crap shoot, but to have carolina finishing last after we went 5-1 last year and have a stronger unit now, then when we did at week 2, is pretty silly.

The team's only weak position is safety and that's not that bad, we're missing one player, that's all, a Strong Safety. Big deal...

Caddy
05-12-2007, 05:22 AM
LOL. For some reason I wouldn't be too shocked. I could see Garcia coming in and pimpin it pretty big time and makin something happen.

I'm still a fan of giving Chris Simms one more chance before we throw Garcia into the mix.

etk
05-12-2007, 09:24 AM
You are twisting my words mate. Read the post by BucBoy or whatever his name is name is. I never said all Buccaneer fans are delusional. We have some which I clearly stated and you even touched on it with your rant about comparing Piscitelli to Lynch.

I am not a pessimistic fan, nor am I an optimistic fan. I like to think that I am a realistic fan.

I wasn't sure just how many units the word "some" represents. Maybe you would've been clearer if you said a "couple".....

I don't even pay attention to them and I don't go on the other message boards (pewterreport, bucs.com) because of it. Just ignore them.

Caddy
05-12-2007, 09:28 AM
I wasn't sure just how many units the word "some" represents. Maybe you would've been clearer if you said a "couple".....

I don't even pay attention to them and I don't go on the other message boards (pewterreport, bucs.com) because of it. Just ignore them.

Some of the guys on pewterreport and buc.com are unbelievable. The crap they post is just plain stupid. I prefer the opinions of guys around here much more than theirs.

Iamcanadian
05-12-2007, 09:53 AM
I look for New Orleans to continue its dominance of the NFL South. However, last year the NFL South had a ridiculously hard schedule and it limited the Division to 1 playoff team. With a much easier schedule this year, they will easily have 2 playoff teams, New Orleans and Carolina. I'm not completely sold on Tampa Bay unless Cadilac returns to form and more importantly, stays healthy, without him, they will be mediocre on offense. The jury is still out on Atlanta, they hired a college HC and making the switch from college to the pros is a huge jump which only a few every succeed at. I look for Atlanta to take a huge step backwards as Petrino adjusts to the pro game.
New Orleans, IMO, will be the favourite to get to the Super Bowl from the NFC. Last year was their 1st as a playoff team and with the added experience, they should take the next step. Carolina with its defense will always be a threat, just depends on what kind of season Delhomme has.

iloxygenil
05-12-2007, 10:24 AM
To be Honest the QB situation in the NFC South is going to be vastly different than any of us thought a few weeks or months ago. It's basically going to look like this:

Tampa Bay - QB - Jeff Garcia
Carolina - QB - David Carr
Atlanta - QB - Joey Harrington
New Orleans - QB - Aaron...JUST kidding, Drew Brees.

It's going to be a big shake up here in this division. Right now I see Vick being suspended for atleast 4 games. I see Carr coming in VERY quickly when Delhomme comes in and sucks it up. I also see Garcia beating out Simms before the season even starts. Gruden's job is on the line and the Simms experiment is tired. So, I'm not sure about this, but I'd have to say that it looks like no one has a CLUE what is going to happen in this division.

Joey and David both were top QBs taken in their respective drafts, Jeff is old, but man he played like a wildman last year and returned to his form from San Fran, which had him leading the NFL recordbooks with the best QB rating in history for a while. Lots of talent, but lots of head cases. I think basically it's going to come down to who can not make the big mistake and who's defense steps up. Injuries will play a major role, as they always do. If the Falcons keep JA healthy, I see them winning more games than they should, if he goes down with an injury, and Coleman is hurt longer than expected, coupled with the Vick suspension the Falcons could be looking at a 4-5 win season.

etk
05-12-2007, 12:48 PM
To be Honest the QB situation in the NFC South is going to be vastly different than any of us thought a few weeks or months ago. It's basically going to look like this:

Tampa Bay - QB - Jeff Garcia
Carolina - QB - David Carr
Atlanta - QB - Joey Harrington
New Orleans - QB - Aaron...JUST kidding, Drew Brees.

Gruden's job is on the line and the Simms experiment is tired.

How is the Simms experiment tired? Enlighten me. Is it because he struggled a bit in 06 and had an emergency splenectomy? As far as I can remember he led our offense to 2 high-scoring victories over Atlanta in 2005 and was moments away from leading us to a possible OT victory over Washington in the Wild Card playoffs before such events occurred.

Either you have no clue what you're talking about or you just don't want us to start Simms because of his track record against your team and division.

SaintsMan
05-12-2007, 04:05 PM
The Saints vastly outperformed their record last year and the Falcons and Panthers both vastly underperformed theirs. The Saints' defense is still questionable and their linebackers still suck. They can build up their offense all they want, because the rest of the NFC South has pretty stout defenses. I don't remember offhand how they fared against the Falcons or Bucs, but they lost both games to the Panthers last year, even though the second was more of a tie through the first quarter then the Saints sent in all their backups.


The Saints beat Atlanta by a combined 38 points in both games last season.

9/25 23-3 Atl
11/26 31-13 @ Atl

We beat the Bucs twice.

10/8 24-21 TB
11/5 31-14 @ TB

Our Linebackers: Scott Shanle did a great job in his first year as a starter leading the team in tackles, Scott Fujita has been good for a while and we did bring in Brian Simmons to play the middle. They aren't probowlers but they don't suck either.

JPF
05-12-2007, 05:43 PM
It might be a crap shoot, but to have carolina finishing last after we went 5-1 last year and have a stronger unit now, then when we did at week 2, is pretty silly.

The team's only weak position is safety and that's not that bad, we're missing one player, that's all, a Strong Safety. Big deal...

Not to mention that our free safety sucks....

BlindSite
05-12-2007, 05:45 PM
Not to mention that our free safety sucks....

He's about the league average.

By the way, don't forget that Carolina went 5-1 in the division... Despite our injury woes.

If the team stays healthy they're by far better than anyone else in the division.

JPF
05-12-2007, 05:51 PM
He's about the league average.

By the way, don't forget that Carolina went 5-1 in the division... Despite our injury woes.

If the team stays healthy they're by far better than anyone else in the division.

I don't even know that I'd consider him league average after some of his plays last year. The one where he just stood there and watched Ken Lucas trying to bring down TO without even thinking about helping sure still makes me want to puke.

I do agree though, last in the division seems harsh.

iloxygenil
05-12-2007, 06:26 PM
Right now I have

1.) Saints
2.) Falcons (w/ Vick)
3.) Panthers
4.) Bucs

OR

1.) Saints
2.) Panthers
3.) Bucs
4.) Falcons (w/o Vick)

Flyboy
05-12-2007, 07:03 PM
I like how BlindSite keeps saying the Panthers went 5-1 yet forgets to mention how we pulled our starters in the last game of the season. :)

BlindSite
05-12-2007, 07:47 PM
I like how BlindSite keeps saying the Panthers went 5-1 yet forgets to mention how we pulled our starters in the last game of the season. :)

Yeah, but you forget that we handily beat you in the first game. We dominated from Start to finish and the Saints were never really in it, for the final quarter the defense played a soft cover 2 and Colston got a really lucky touchdown on a play where your offensive line had a massive hold of Lewis and Rucker and Minter threw a text book block

Flyboy
05-12-2007, 07:49 PM
Never really in it? C'mon on, man, before Foster's TD in the fourth quarter we were still very much in that game and had a chance to win. We lost but don't act like he manhandled us like, say, the Ravens.

BlindSite
05-12-2007, 08:05 PM
People also forget we beat the Ravens, but yeah, moving on, we beat you guys down, your offense couldn't move the ball in the first quarter, we might not have man handled, but the game was in hand all day.

New Orleans put up a bit of a fight, but not enough of one for them to be considered a superior team by any stretch.

Bengals1690
05-12-2007, 08:09 PM
People also forget we beat the Ravens, but yeah, moving on, we beat you guys down, your offense couldn't move the ball in the first quarter, we might not have man handled, but the game was in hand all day.

New Orleans put up a bit of a fight, but not enough of one for them to be considered a superior team by any stretch.

remember the fourth and 1 in the bengals game where CJ made the unbeliveable catch. i about **** my pants.

simms2clayton
05-12-2007, 08:15 PM
My predictions for NFC South:

1. Carolina 10-6
2. Tampa Bay 9-7
3. New Orleans 8-8
4. Atlanta 5-11

Carolina plays really well when no one expects them to and plays really bad when they are the favorites. Tampa has a lot of new talent, but I just don't see a great improvement on defense and consistency from the QB position. Atlanta will falter thanks to the great leadership of the almight Michael Vick (who we won't see in a PetSmart any time soon hehe).

BlindSite
05-12-2007, 08:21 PM
remember the fourth and 1 in the bengals game where CJ made the unbeliveable catch. i about **** my pants.

Yeah it was after that game that Henning was going to be shown the door.

I could've had a 3 page playbook from pop warner and called that game to a victory but Henning still ****** it.

SchizophrenicBatman
05-12-2007, 09:23 PM
My predictions for NFC South:

1. Carolina 10-6
2. Tampa Bay 9-7
3. New Orleans 8-8
4. Atlanta 5-11

Carolina plays really well when no one expects them to and plays really bad when they are the favorites. Tampa has a lot of new talent, but I just don't see a great improvement on defense and consistency from the QB position. Atlanta will falter thanks to the great leadership of the almight Michael Vick (who we won't see in a PetSmart any time soon hehe).

Under Fox, the Panthers always do well in odd years and when they've got no hype. Only problem is that the media won't let go of their fascination with us after last year, especially since we drafted a bunch of big names on the first day. Though honestly, how the team performs probably doesnt have as much to do with the media's opinion of them as the side-effects of being "underrated" does. Theyre more hungry after a disappointing season, their opposition isn't gunning for one of the perceived top teams, they have an easier schedule, etc

We'll see how it works out this year.

As for the QB situation, I wouldnt expect Carr to be starting any more than I'd expect Harrington to. Take a look at Carr's stats. As up and down as Delhomme is, Carr is down much more often (figuratively and literally---down on the ground). He is much better than Chris Weinke however, which means our OC won't have to call 50 running plays and Knute Rockne Box's on 3rd down to have a chance at winning if Jake gets injured or sucks especially hard again

Caddy
05-13-2007, 01:16 AM
My predictions for NFC South:

1. Carolina 10-6
2. Tampa Bay 9-7
3. New Orleans 8-8
4. Atlanta 5-11

Carolina plays really well when no one expects them to and plays really bad when they are the favorites. Tampa has a lot of new talent, but I just don't see a great improvement on defense and consistency from the QB position. Atlanta will falter thanks to the great leadership of the almight Michael Vick (who we won't see in a PetSmart any time soon hehe).

I like the way you think S2C. 9-7 might be reaching a little but I wouldn't be disappointed with that at all.

sweetness34
05-13-2007, 01:43 AM
Idk, I just get a feeling that the Saints are going to underachieve next year. I'll break it down later but here's my predictions:

1) Atlanta: 9-7 (wins tiebreaker with Panthers)
2) Carolina: 9-7
3) New Orleans: 8-8
4) Tampa Bay: 6-10

BlindSite
05-13-2007, 06:50 PM
I think we've all got an easy enough schedule in the NFCS not to falter that badly.

Shiver
05-13-2007, 07:47 PM
I might add, if this Michael Vick situation doesn't end soon I would put Atlanta at the bottom of the NFC South. Worst case is a suspension, and I don't think Joey Harrington would be sufficient as more than a emergency option. Best case is still an overwhelming distraction for him, and conversely the rest of the team. This issue needs to die for the Falcons to have success.

BlindSite
05-13-2007, 09:00 PM
Problem will be though, if he's out for the first 4 weeks or something similar, he's going to struggle for the next two as well, from not playing for four weeks with the guys around him and getting accustomed to the defenses he'll be facing. Yeah I realise he'll probably be fine, but the first few weeks of the season are pivotal to chemistry.

Shiver
05-13-2007, 09:02 PM
To tell the truth, I would rather draft high and take Brian Brohm, rather than finish the season in mediocrity.

Shiver
05-13-2007, 09:18 PM
I think we've all got an easy enough schedule in the NFCS not to falter that badly.

That is one reason for optimism amongst all the uncertainties in this division, that's for a certain. Though I am not certain that the teams in the AFC South and NFC West may actually be better, pound for pound. Those teams improved greatly, it would seem.

iloxygenil
05-13-2007, 09:27 PM
I think the 49ers will end up being one of the tougher games for the Falcons this season, and really anyone they play. I'm not sold that they will win a bunch of games, but they will be in every game they play for once. They may come away winning their division though, just depends on if Alex really does have it and if they can stay healthy. They don't have great depth, but man, they sure do have some stars on that squad.

iloxygenil
05-13-2007, 09:45 PM
How is the Simms experiment tired? Enlighten me. Is it because he struggled a bit in 06 and had an emergency splenectomy? As far as I can remember he led our offense to 2 high-scoring victories over Atlanta in 2005 and was moments away from leading us to a possible OT victory over Washington in the Wild Card playoffs before such events occurred.

Either you have no clue what you're talking about or you just don't want us to start Simms because of his track record against your team and division.

LOL...you act like Simms won a game for you. Your defense has beat us...our lack of run defense has beat us, but Chris Simms...no...can't say we've lost because of his carrying a team on his back lol. The Simms experiment can go on as long as you guys want to be cellar dwellers...when the kid came into the league I had high hopes for him but he's failed pretty miserably. I mean Vick hasn't done exceptionally well...but you can watch the games and a lot of times see that he's the only one giving 100% out there. Vick wins games for his team lots of ways...he makes his mistakes and is far from perfect, but he's a lot more successful than Simms.

But Garcia is a proven winner, and he's in the twilight of his career, he didn't go somewhere thinking he wouldn't get a chance to start. Even if he just grooms Simms for a year...I think the Simms experiment is over...but it may just be postponed.

As far as the Carr thing goes...I'm just thinkin a guy who completed almost 70% of his passes isn't going to be too happy riding the pine...he's been behind a terrible offensive line that's why he's been on his back so much. Hopefully in Carolina that can change for him.

Shiver
05-13-2007, 11:02 PM
I have never been impressed with Chris Simms, actually. He had one nice game in the regular season against Washington, other than that he hasn't played so well. I think that Jeff Garcia is a "no-brainer" as the ideal Bucs starting QB.

etk
05-13-2007, 11:10 PM
LOL...you act like Simms won a game for you. Your defense has beat us...our lack of run defense has beat us, but Chris Simms...no...can't say we've lost because of his carrying a team on his back lol. The Simms experiment can go on as long as you guys want to be cellar dwellers...when the kid came into the league I had high hopes for him but he's failed pretty miserably. I mean Vick hasn't done exceptionally well...but you can watch the games and a lot of times see that he's the only one giving 100% out there. Vick wins games for his team lots of ways...he makes his mistakes and is far from perfect, but he's a lot more successful than Simms.

But Garcia is a proven winner, and he's in the twilight of his career, he didn't go somewhere thinking he wouldn't get a chance to start. Even if he just grooms Simms for a year...I think the Simms experiment is over...but it may just be postponed.



I don't see any substance in your Simss argument. You give him no credit for quarterbacking us to the NFC South title and leading our offense to 2 high scoring victories against your own team. Do you watch any of your own games, or do you just have a horrible memory? 30-27 & 27-24 point victories and you try to tell me that our defense won the games. Simms was mediocre in the first game but he managed the 2nd game well as he was more accustomed to the offense.

Garcia is far from a proven winner, he was among the worst in the league when he played for Cleveland and Detroit. Do the numbers 0.0 ring a bell? We don't have a supporting cast like Philadelphia does so he won't come close to that 2006 kind of production.

What is the Chris Simms "experiment"? This isn't chemistry, it's football. He was drafted to be our QB of the future and he has done very little to lose that role.

Shiver
05-13-2007, 11:23 PM
I don't see any substance in your Simss argument. You give him no credit for quarterbacking us to the NFC South title and leading our offense to 2 high scoring victories against your own team. Do you watch any of your own games, or do you just have a horrible memory? 30-27 & 27-24 point victories and you try to tell me that our defense won the games. Simms was mediocre in the first game but he managed the 2nd game well as he was more accustomed to the offense.


In the 2nd game, he was struggling until DeAngelo Hall was injured. Once he left, Joey Galloway abused Jason Webster. Carnell Williams was the reason the Bucs swept the Falcons in '05. The Falcons couldn't stop him, the Bucs couldn't stop Michael Vick, but it was Atlanta's self imposed wounds that made the difference.

etk
05-13-2007, 11:27 PM
In the 2nd game, he was struggling until DeAngelo Hall was injured. Once he left, Joey Galloway abused Jason Webster. Carnell Williams was the reason the Bucs swept the Falcons in '05. The Falcons couldn't stop him, the Bucs couldn't stop Michael Vick, but it was Atlanta's self imposed wounds that made the difference.

Can't disagree with that statement. Special Teams was definitely the difference. It must have hurt Rich McKay quite a bit to see Carnell pound Atlanta's defense like that because McKay absolutely adored him as a prospect.

BlindSite
05-14-2007, 03:41 AM
On the schedule thing, I know you shouldn't ever discount teams before the start of the season, but every year people are touting how Arizona, 49ers and whomever else have turned a corner and every year its false.

Caddy
05-14-2007, 04:35 AM
I don't see any substance in your Simss argument. You give him no credit for quarterbacking us to the NFC South title and leading our offense to 2 high scoring victories against your own team. Do you watch any of your own games, or do you just have a horrible memory? 30-27 & 27-24 point victories and you try to tell me that our defense won the games. Simms was mediocre in the first game but he managed the 2nd game well as he was more accustomed to the offense.

Garcia is far from a proven winner, he was among the worst in the league when he played for Cleveland and Detroit. Do the numbers 0.0 ring a bell? We don't have a supporting cast like Philadelphia does so he won't come close to that 2006 kind of production.

What is the Chris Simms "experiment"? This isn't chemistry, it's football. He was drafted to be our QB of the future and he has done very little to lose that role.

Gotta give Dewayne White some credit there. He pretty much gave the Buccaneers a shot at beating the Falcons. That block in overtime saved our asses.

http://www.buccaneers.com/media/photos/misc/122405_Terry41.jpg

iloxygenil
05-14-2007, 09:47 AM
To say that Simms has done very little to lose that role would be like saying that Michael Vick has done very little in terms of setting records in the NFL. Regardless of what everyone wants to say, Vick's name is etched, more than likely permanently in the NFL record books. Simms has been nothing more than a QB that manages games well SOMETIMES and loses games others. Obviously you are going to know more about the Bucs than me because I don't watch them every week, but I see the 'highlights' on Sportscenter, and I see a lot of games, just not all 16 like you. Simms isn't a great QB, and he couldn't be the QB of the future for any NFL franchise, he's just not that good of a QB. He's Trent Dilfer at best, and that's after he gets his head on straight and quits tossing the ball to the other team.

I don't doubt the Bucs are still a really nasty matchup for us, but it's not the QB play that we worry about. It's our inability to stop Caddy from running straight up the gut that's scary.

Shiver
05-14-2007, 03:01 PM
FLOWERY BRANCH, Ga. -- In his 11 previous NFL seasons, Joe Horn has worked with four head coaches, six offensive coordinators and five wide receivers aides.

From MartyBall in Kansas City to (Mike) McCarthyism in New Orleans, that's a lot of offensive nomenclature to assimilate, thousands of plays to have recalled, an encyclopedia's worth of X's-and-O's knowledge to have committed to memory, a veritable smorgasbord of styles and schemes in which to have performed.

So when Horn terms an offense "the most exciting" that he has ever seen on a practice field, as he did here Friday morning following the initial mandatory minicamp session in which the Atlanta Falcons operated under rookie head coach and noted offensive tinkerer Bobby Petrino, the words take on a little gravitas.

Signed by the Falcons as a free agent after the New Orleans Saints unceremoniously released him early in the spring, Horn has seen just about everything under the NFL sun. But the Petrino-designed offense, or BobbyBall as a few players have privately dubbed it, might represent the dawning of a new day. This is significant for an Atlanta team that has lacked the kind of balance that Petrino-coached offenses have demonstrated at the college level.

"Really, if you scrape away all of the motion and the formation changes and things like that, it's more basic than people might think," said the always talkative Horn, who was brought here to provide leadership on and off the field for a young wide receivers corps. "But the beauty is that you can do the same things so many different ways. There are ways to pound away at [defenses] with the run, or to go over the top of them with the pass, and there's just a lot of big-play potential, because you're confusing the defense and creating matchups for your playmakers. It seems like, in this offense, you're always attacking or setting up some way to attack people. I'll tell you this: It's a pretty complete package."

Despite possessing one of the league's most elite athletes in quarterback Michael Vick, complete is something the Falcons' offense has not been accused of being lately. In fact, partly because of Vick's lack of development as a passer, balance has been bereft in recent seasons. Under former head coach Jim Mora and coordinator Greg Knapp, the Falcons led the NFL in rushing in each of the past three seasons, but never finished higher than No. 27 in passing offense.

Most important, the one-dimensional Falcons enjoyed just one winning season in that three-year stretch, and after advancing to the NFC championship game in 2004, were just 15-17 over the past two seasons, prompting Mora's dismissal.

Last season represented the ultimate in offensive polarization, as Atlanta ranked first in rushing again, but was statistically dead-last in passing offense. That certainly shouldn't be the case in 2007.

It is difficult to pin a catchy handle on Petrino's offensive brainchild, a conglomeration of ideas and concepts gleaned from his own doodling and borrowed from other systems he admired, but the hallmarks certainly appear to be diversity, multiplicity, precision and flexibility. Petrino insists that, unlike a lot of pass-oriented offenses, his demands a power-based running attack. But his passing game also has displayed solid distributive properties and quick-strike abilities up the field as well.

There is considerable shifting, motion and formation diversity. Plays that are run from a three-wide receiver set one week might be designed for a two-tight end formation the next. But the key, Petrino has reiterated time and again since taking the Falcons job, is to get the ball to the right people and at the right times.

"One constant, I think, everywhere we've been, is that we've always gotten the football to our playmakers," Petrino said. "It doesn't matter what you call it, or how you do it, as long as you go out and do it. Get people into the matchups where they've got an advantage over [the defender] and then take advantage of that edge."

There is scant empirical evidence of how the Petrino offense might function at the NFL level. In his only season as an offensive coordinator in the league, the Jacksonville Jaguars ranked 20th in 2001, but it would be unfair to make assumptions based on that short body of work. Still, the Falcons' passing game, by definition, can only improve. How significant an advance it makes will, of course, be tied to Vick's progress as a passer.

Blessed with an incredibly strong arm, but defined in the past by poor marksmanship, Vick has completed only 53.7 percent of his career attempts. In his most accurate season, Vick completed only 56.4 percent of his passes, and he has never thrown more than 20 touchdown passes in a year. Petrino has set the bar high, noting that a 65-percent completion rate is the standard for his quarterbacks, and he sounds convincing when he argues Vick is capable of such a mark despite what he has done in the past.

That remains to be seen, but it should be noted that Petrino's quarterbacks over the past eight seasons have been remarkably consistent in their accuracy. In stints as the quarterbacks coach (1999-2000) and offensive coordinator (2001) at Jacksonville, the offensive coordinator at Auburn (2002) and then head coach at Louisville (2003-2006), his quarterbacks completed an aggregate 63.0 percent of their attempts.

Only twice, in 1999 and 2002, did Petrino-tutored quarterbacks register a completion mark of under 60 percent. In his four seasons at Louisville, the rate was 65.1 percent.

"A lot of it is just timing, throwing the ball to the right spot, because, believe me, people are going to be open," said Falcons' backup quarterback Chris Redman, who played under Petrino at Louisville. "And you work so much on that stuff in practice, where [Petrino] can be pretty demanding, that it becomes second nature."

Vick's first nature, of course, is to pull the ball down and run with it when things in the pocket break down. Petrino has told Vick that busting out of the pocket on one of his trademark scrambles should be a last resort, instead of his second option.

Only time will tell just how well that sits with Vick, who in the past has indicated he understands the importance of the passing game, but typically reverts to what he knows best when under pressure. What clearly has excited Vick in his otherwise tumultuous offseason is the ability to change plays at the line of scrimmage, a limited freedom under the former coaching staff.

To a man, team officials, coaches and teammates agree that Vick has been markedly more diligent in his work ethic this offseason. He has been a more pronounced presence at the team's complex and Petrino has lauded his quarterback's acuity in picking up what is the most ambitious offensive package ever presented to him.

Said Vick, who has the football acumen to absorb such a change, but simply hasn't experienced the opportunity to audible to a wide menu of choices: "It gives us a lot of options when we come to the line of scrimmage. It gives us the ability to get out of a bad play [at the line of scrimmage], and get into a good play. It is something I have wanted to do for a long time, and I'm excited I finally have the opportunity to do it."

Still, while Vick is the centerpiece for the offensive overhaul, he is hardly the only key component for Petrino and his staff.

The offensive line, stocked with a lot of the 280- and 290-pound blockers preferred by former assistant Alex Gibbs for his zone-blocking scheme, has to be reshaped, literally. Petrino wants bigger linemen to enable him to run the ball at defenses with power. Neither of the top two tailbacks, Warrick Dunn or Jerious Norwood, is the kind of wrecking ball Petrino likes at the position. Dunn will be asked to catch the ball more, however, in this offense, a onetime strength of Dunn that was subjugated recently. And Norwood, who has tremendous long-strike speed, has gained some weight and is five pounds stouter than a year ago.

No matter how accurate Vick is, he's got to have receivers who consistently catch the ball, and that remains a question mark. Indeed, the most reliable pass-catcher on the team, and the player in whom Vick has the most confidence remains four-time Pro Bowl tight end Alge Crumpler. The Petrino offense does accentuate the tight end position and Crumpler, if possible, might be even better in the new system. But the offense needs plays from the outside receivers, too, and therein lies the uncertainty.

Neither of the team's former first-round wide receivers, Michael Jenkins (2004) or Roddy White (2005), has caught more than 40 passes in a season. White in particular seemed to struggle in the Falcons' weekend minicamp. Brian Finneran, the angular possession receiver, missed all of 2006 with a torn anterior cruciate ligament suffered in camp, and still isn't full-speed. And Horn is 35 years old now and coming off an injury-plagued campaign in which he had his poorest numbers since 1999. Even when Horn was healthy late last season, Saints coach Sean Payton used him sparingly, preferring to play youngsters instead. The Falcons' brass is hopeful that Horn still plays as good a game as he talks.

Then again, the veteran wideout isn't the only one offering positive words about the team's new offense, the difference they expect Petrino to make, and the quantum leap they feel the unit will make in 2007. If nothing else, Petrino has done a good job selling optimism to this point.

LINK (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2869769)

This article had me pumped.

Splat
05-14-2007, 03:21 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=rotowire-oberteachemhowsputof&prov=rotowire&type=fantasy

Update: Meachem arrived out of shape to Saints' practice on Saturday after falling behind during off season workouts this spring, the Times-Picayune reports.

Recommendation: "He needs to drop a lot of weight to get back into the playing shape we saw on film." Head coach Sean Payton said of the rookie after practice. "I'm sure he'll work hard at doing that. He's going to have to if he wants to compete with the group he's going to be in at minicamp." Adding injury to insult, Meachem tweaked his left ankle on Saturday, though he was not expected to miss any practice. If Meachem gets in shape this offseason, he'll battle Terrance Copper (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7109/;_ylt=Ajn00GGWsAUFPIhXczW.k64H8sMF), Devery Henderson (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6809/;_ylt=ApTtSU4XI8yL.JFmtqJNqwQH8sMF) and David Patten (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/4172/;_ylt=Aiqe8dyE3sbmA5sns_8m8gYH8sMF) for the No. 2 receiving job behind Marques Colston (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/8001/;_ylt=AtOdCyUNgOvntPGB_Yfl5wsH8sMF).

bearsfan_51
05-14-2007, 03:22 PM
BUST!!!!!!!!

Splat
05-14-2007, 03:24 PM
A lot of Chiefs fans wanted this guy over D-Bo but D-Bo showed up to camp late and was dropping balls I still think D-Bo will step it up but how do you show up late to your first practice ever?

Phrost
05-14-2007, 03:27 PM
Its typical, he had a gym and trainers available at all times when he played at Tenn. Don't fret, he will be fine.

Seasonticketholder
05-14-2007, 03:40 PM
BUST!!!!!!!!

Colston showed up the same way last season. This story is way overblown and the national take on this story will vary greatly from the local story.

Auron
05-14-2007, 04:15 PM
Colston showed up the same way last season. This story is way overblown and the national take on this story will vary greatly from the local story.

Pretty much, every rookie has to do a lot of adjusting coming into the pros. It's fairly common for them to be slightly out of shape from all the pre-draft traveling, and dinner events they attend with prospective teams. Then they compensate by overdoing it at camp.

I don't see how this news at all

GiantRutgersFan
05-14-2007, 04:46 PM
Yea.... I liked Sidney Rice and Dwayne Jarrett more then Bowe and Meachem. Just keep that in mind.

sdpads24
05-14-2007, 04:49 PM
Maybe Craig Davis wasn't such a bad pick afterall........

Flyboy
05-14-2007, 05:00 PM
Pretty much, every rookie has to do a lot of adjusting coming into the pros. It's fairly common for them to be slightly out of shape from all the pre-draft traveling, and dinner events they attend with prospective teams. Then they compensate by overdoing it at camp.

I don't see how this news at all

Neither do I. I mean, for the Saints' Team Board, yes but the NFL Board? I guess news is slow.

People are also forgetting that Sean Payton runs one of the hardest camps in the league.

SaintsMan
05-14-2007, 05:14 PM
Didn't Calvin Johnson show up at Lions Camp out of shape? And like others have said, Colston was out of shape this time last year. It's no big deal. To call him a bust already is ridiculous.

Flyboy
05-14-2007, 05:15 PM
I'm pretty sure bf_51 was being facetious.

Go_Eagles77
05-14-2007, 05:16 PM
Yea.... I liked Sidney Rice and Dwayne Jarrett more then Bowe and Meachem. Just keep that in mind.

You have positive rep now? woah

MP123
05-14-2007, 05:16 PM
I wonder how much he showed up weighing.

Sniper
05-14-2007, 05:17 PM
You have positive rep now? woah

How did that happen?

yourfavestoner
05-14-2007, 05:37 PM
How did that happen?

By creating the most ridiculous, yet entertaining thread anybody's ever seen.

Seriously. That **** was HOF material.

etk
05-14-2007, 06:13 PM
He's Trent Dilfer at best, and that's after he gets his head on straight and quits tossing the ball to the other team.



Chris Simms actually has a very high ceiling. He has prototypical size and arm strength with improving accuracy. His mechanics have gone from a major weakness to a strength too. He does need to get his head on straight and become more consistent in his reads but he's a talented quarterback that deserves another chance in a difficult system for QBs. He's made major strides and I see that continuing. He can easily exceed Trent Dilfer in ability and become a Matt Hasselbeck-like "fringe Pro Bowler" type.

Flyboy
05-14-2007, 06:20 PM
Atlanta's offense sounds pretty similar to the things that Payton runs here.

SaintsMan
05-14-2007, 06:24 PM
Atlanta's offense sounds pretty similar to the things that Payton runs here.

I still don't like Vick as a passer and I doubt Horn returns to form. We'll see.

Flyboy
05-14-2007, 06:27 PM
I didn't say it would be as good as our offense, but the principals sound the same.

Seasonticketholder
05-14-2007, 06:58 PM
I wonder how much he showed up weighing.

The Saints want him at 210...211 is overweight to Sean Payton, honestly. Judging by the pictures from the minicamp, he's no more than 215 or 216. He did look good in the time that he did practice catching the football. But it was just obvious that the previous two months he had been doing more visiting teams than working out. Payton stated that much and the word in New Orleans is that it is not a big concern whatsoever; they are saying Meacham will be fine and that he should get up to speed really quickly in the OTAs. In fact, Colston has already taken him under his wing and begun to tell him the things he must do in order to adjust to being a professional football player and staying in tip-top shape. Also, he really was not terribly out-of-shape. Sean Payton runs a hard camp. Last year during the first minicamp when the heat seem to get to Bush and he kind of tweaked a hamstring, Payton said that he [Bush] had been spending too much time riding in limos and touring the country than getting enough time to workout and properly prepare himself. Payton pushes all the guys. No one is ever in shape for his first camp. By the time the second minicamp and, even more, the training camp rolls around, these guys are usually ready to run and go after it.

Beans
05-14-2007, 07:16 PM
When I try to find a game to summarize Simms, I point to the '05 Wildcard game. He battled all that game, made that sick rushing touchdown where he dove in, and lost the game because of our **** O-line and Edell Sheppard dropping the TD pass.

Flyboy
05-14-2007, 07:20 PM
I remember that game. I'm not a huge Chris Simms' fan, but I don't think he's as bad as people make him out to be at all.

d34ng3l021
05-14-2007, 07:32 PM
Gotta give Dewayne White some credit there. He pretty much gave the Buccaneers a shot at beating the Falcons. That block in overtime saved our asses.

http://www.buccaneers.com/media/photos/misc/122405_Terry41.jpg

Thanks for the pic.

No really. Thanks.

etk
05-14-2007, 07:58 PM
When I try to find a game to summarize Simms, I point to the '05 Wildcard game. He battled all that game, made that sick rushing touchdown where he dove in, and lost the game because of our **** O-line and Edell Sheppard dropping the TD pass.

That's vintage Simms, he's a tough cat. I remember him rolling his eyes after the 2nd tipped INT and thinking to myself "when we get an above-average offensive line he will explode". This could be the year.....

Caddy
05-14-2007, 08:34 PM
That's vintage Simms, he's a tough cat. I remember him rolling his eyes after the 2nd tipped INT and thinking to myself "when we get an above-average offensive line he will explode". This could be the year.....

I think that this season is a make or break one for Simms. If he can beat out Garcia for the starting gig and do a respectable job as a QB then he may be tagged as the long term guy there and get a contract extension.

If he falters like he did last season, which in all respect wasn't all his fault, he might have to pack his bags and either be cut or traded.

jefepowhnzer
05-14-2007, 10:14 PM
Pretty much, every rookie has to do a lot of adjusting coming into the pros. It's fairly common for them to be slightly out of shape from all the pre-draft traveling, and dinner events they attend with prospective teams. Then they compensate by overdoing it at camp.

I don't see how this news at all

Agreed. While the draftees have the best of intentions to be in good shape for camp, they're not machines. You would have to think that some, if not most, of the players in the draft see the period between their pro days and draft day as a time to take a breath and relax. I don't mean completely not working out, but a few days off here and there. Of course, unless, you're Calvin Johnson.

iloxygenil
05-14-2007, 10:55 PM
That may have been the longest article in history Shiv...

Shiver
05-14-2007, 10:56 PM
I didn't even post it all..

iloxygenil
05-14-2007, 11:06 PM
LOL...I need to go to the link then...cause that was pretty fun read right there...and yeah...I'm optimistic...I HOPE for Payton like improvement, but don't expect it.

KILLERSANTA
05-14-2007, 11:14 PM
Yea.... I liked Sidney Rice and Dwayne Jarrett more then Bowe and Meachem. Just keep that in mind.

Agree......

My big board for WRs was this:

Johnson






Jarrett
Rice

bored of education
05-14-2007, 11:16 PM
its easy to say that now.

DChess
05-14-2007, 11:16 PM
By creating the most ridiculous, yet entertaining thread anybody's ever seen.

Seriously. That **** was HOF material.

which one.....

KILLERSANTA
05-14-2007, 11:20 PM
Well being out of shape is better then making it rain.......

Acreboy
05-14-2007, 11:22 PM
Yea.... I liked Sidney Rice and Dwayne Jarrett more then Bowe and Meachem. Just keep that in mind.I'll keep it in mind because it's ridiculous.

cunningham06
05-14-2007, 11:48 PM
Well it's pretty obvious now that he will never amount to anything in the NFL.

Flyboy
05-14-2007, 11:49 PM
Well it's pretty obvious now that he will never amount to anything in the NFL.

Sorta like... nah. I won't go there. ;)

soybean
05-15-2007, 12:17 AM
I'll keep it in mind because it's ridiculous.

why is it ridiculous?

plus, i think it's better for wr's to be taken in the second round rather than the first, that way they have to earn their money rather than being guaranteed a disgusting amount.

cunningham06
05-15-2007, 12:38 AM
Sorta like... nah. I won't go there. ;)

Respect for pulling the punch on Kolb. I was just kidding though, Meachem was my favorite wide receiver in this years draft. Although I thought New Orleans should have taken Houston, Meachem is a good pick.

LarryJohnson27
05-15-2007, 01:48 AM
A lot of Chiefs fans wanted this guy over D-Bo but D-Bo showed up to camp late and was dropping balls I still think D-Bo will step it up but how do you show up late to your first practice ever?

It was excused

BlindSite
05-15-2007, 07:48 AM
I didn't even post it all..

I like Joe Horn, but McKay is cursed when it comes to receivers. The only good one he's ever brought along was Johnson who ended up getting traded anyway.

ricky bobby
05-15-2007, 08:37 AM
Meachem shows up out of shape.
Bowe shows up late.

Steve Smith showed up and amazed everyone.

Pit Bull #53
05-15-2007, 08:41 AM
This won't be a big deal. Meachem's a good worker. If they really wanted him at 210, he'd have to lose a little weight anyway because he was 214 at the combine I believe. I think he played last season for Tennessee at 210 though, so it's a good playing weight for him.

Sniper
05-15-2007, 09:32 AM
That's not ridiculous at all. Jarrett is a proven commodity, not a one year wonder, and Rice was probably the best receiver in the SEC last year, and he's done it more consistently than one year wonders like Bowe (who could never crack 1,000 yards) and Meachem who had one year over 1,000 yards

Modano
05-15-2007, 09:57 AM
That's not ridiculous at all. Jarrett is a proven commodity, not a one year wonder, and Rice was probably the best receiver in the SEC last year, and he's done it more consistently than one year wonders like Bowe (who could never crack 1,000 yards) and Meachem who had one year over 1,000 yards

Andre Johnson was a "one year wonder" too... While Mike Williams was a "proven commodity"

bored of education
05-15-2007, 10:07 AM
Andre Johnson was a "one year wonder" too... While Mike Williams was a "proven commodity"



ohhh snapppp

iloxygenil
05-15-2007, 10:20 AM
That's the truth BlindSite. Really annoying to have to watch our first round WRs do so poorly...but we have a good WR coach now...we didn't have that before.

Sniper
05-15-2007, 12:56 PM
Andre Johnson was a "one year wonder" too... While Mike Williams was a "proven commodity"

Exception, not rule. Jarrett doesn't have the same work ethic questions as Williams. Williams is trying to set the record for heaviest WR ever!

HoopsDemon12
05-15-2007, 12:57 PM
Andre Johnson was a "one year wonder" too... While Mike Williams was a "proven commodity"

ohhh snapppp

wow you so beat me to that...

DeathbyStat
05-15-2007, 01:02 PM
The Saints should have draft defense in the first.

iloxygenil
05-15-2007, 01:16 PM
I was a little worried when they picked up Meachem in the first, cause that's just another weapon for Brees to use...but he honestly isn't that much scarier than Henderson...so I think they improved their depth, but they could have made their team better with someone on the defensive side of the ball. I think that this is pretty much a no story like many of the Saints fans have said, and I think he'll be a good weapon for them...but I'm glad we have a guy who played him real solid man to man =)

Acreboy
05-15-2007, 01:33 PM
I was a little worried when they picked up Meachem in the first, cause that's just another weapon for Brees to use...but he honestly isn't that much scarier than Henderson...so I think they improved their depth, but they could have made their team better with someone on the defensive side of the ball. I think that this is pretty much a no story like many of the Saints fans have said, and I think he'll be a good weapon for them...but I'm glad we have a guy who played him real solid man to man =)Not much better than Henderson?

Watch more football.

The Saints should have draft defense in the first.No one was graded hight enough for them to take at that spot.

Colts should have done the same thing too.

Shiver
05-15-2007, 01:35 PM
The Saints should have draft defense in the first.

I couldn't agree more.


On a side note; I am glad Atlanta drafted a cover corner who dominated both Dwayne Jarrett (Carolina) and Robert Meachem (New Orleans) last year. He will likely be matched up against them again this year.

Sniper
05-15-2007, 01:36 PM
Dominated Jarrett? I'm guessing after USC was winning 50-14!!!!!!!!!!!!!,they were really throwing the ball hardcore right?

Ho0k Em'
05-15-2007, 01:38 PM
I couldn't agree more.


On a side note; I am glad Atlanta drafted a cover corner who dominated both Dwayne Jarrett (Carolina) and Robert Meachem (New Orleans) last year.

I didn't watch the game, but Meachem still had 65 yards and a TD so just from a statistical standpoint it looks like Meachem got the better.

Shiver
05-15-2007, 01:39 PM
I didn't watch the game, but Meachem still had 65 yards and a TD so just from a statistical standpoint it looks like Meachem got the better.


I'm just going from what Mike Mayock showed on game-tape. Houston was excellent against Jarrett, Meachem, Bowe, but struggled against Rice.

Ho0k Em'
05-15-2007, 01:42 PM
I'm just going from what Mike Mayock showed on game-tape. Houston was excellent against Jarrett, Meachem, Bowe, but struggled against Rice.

I remember on ESPN's Meachem highlight tape Meachem dominated an arkansas CB on his TD don't remember if it was on Houston.

Acreboy
05-15-2007, 01:52 PM
I remember on ESPN's Meachem highlight tape Meachem dominated an arkansas CB on his TD don't remember if it was on Houston.It was Houston

Addict
05-15-2007, 01:58 PM
Andre Johnson was a "one year wonder" too... While Mike Williams was a "proven commodity"

There is a raider fan out here in these forums who reffered to BMW as a 'monster of a receiver'.

I nearly died of laughter when I read that.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-15-2007, 02:28 PM
Not much better than Henderson?

Watch more football.

No one was graded hight enough for them to take at that spot.

Colts should have done the same thing too.

Ugh... who's "whistle" did you have to blow to get repped out of a red bar?

I hate, hate, HATE when homerism is so blatantly obvious. You're doing all you can to make a BAD pick seem like a GOOD pick, just because it was YOUR TEAM's pick. Granted, I've warmed up a bit to the Meachem pick, but you know, I know, and everybody else knows that the Saints needed to address their defense early and often, something which they simply did not do. Yes, Meachem was pretty good value at #27. But only teams that are solid all-around can afford to draft purely for BPA and depth; teams with glaring weaknesses, such as the Saints, need to take guys that will make them instantly better, not instantly deeper.

Colston/Henderson/Copper/Patten is a solid WR corps. At this point, Meachem really ISN'T all that much better than Henderson, and he certainly doesn't impact the team in the way that a guy like Paul Posluszny could and would have. I'm a Saints homer too, but I'm also a smart guy, and Robert Meachem is not the "can't miss" WR prospect that you take just because he's the BPA when you have huge holes all over your defense and there's a group of potential impact defensive players like Posluszny, Houston, Harris, and Branch on the board.

So, what have we learned today, kids?

Meachem, while he might have been the BPA on the Saints board, was not a "can't miss" WR prospect, and thus should not have been taken. As of today, he's not better than Devery Henderson. Our offense did not need any help, and our defense needed tons of help. A guy like Puz would have been a perfect pick; Meachem was a terrible pick, and the fact that you're seriously trying to defend that pick, really shows your intelligence.

draftguru151
05-15-2007, 03:06 PM
I love Meachem, but Poz, Branch or Houston all would have been much better picks there. I think Meachem can be the OROY next season, but it really won't help the Saints that much.

Acreboy
05-15-2007, 03:11 PM
Ugh... who's "whistle" did you have to blow to get repped out of a red bar?
I won't even sink to your level on that one.

I hate, hate, HATE when homerism is so blatantly obvious. You're doing all you can to make a BAD pick seem like a GOOD pick, just because it was YOUR TEAM's pick. Granted, I've warmed up a bit to the Meachem pick, but you know, I know, and everybody else knows that the Saints needed to address their defense early and often, something which they simply did not do. Yes, Meachem was pretty good value at #27. But only teams that are solid all-around can afford to draft purely for BPA and depth; teams with glaring weaknesses, such as the Saints, need to take guys that will make them instantly better, not instantly deeper.Man, it's all about how the Saints graded their players. Obviously Meachem was higher than Houston and every other defensive player on the board. They felt better trading out of the second round and draft Usama Young from Kent State instead of Marcus McCauley. Saints had the luxury of drafting BPA and they did.

Colston/Henderson/Copper/Patten is a solid WR corps. At this point, Meachem really ISN'T all that much better than Henderson, and he certainly doesn't impact the team in the way that a guy like Paul Posluszny could and would have. I'm a Saints homer too, but I'm also a smart guy, and Robert Meachem is not the "can't miss" WR prospect that you take just because he's the BPA when you have huge holes all over your defense and there's a group of potential impact defensive players like Posluszny, Houston, Harris, and Branch on the board.Colston-Solid. Henderson-Inconsistent and will demand more money than he is worth after his contract is up this year. Patten-Nothing, has done nothing since being in New England. Had 1 catch all year in Washington. Might not even make the team! Copper-good WR, I like Copper. Meachem-Will be better than Henderson. Also, you have can't miss in quotations like i've said it. So please stop it, i've never said that and you look like an idiot when you do that. Don't need an OLB we have Fujita for 3 more years and Shanle we we just signed for 4 more years. Don't need ILB because we have Simmons for a few years so that crosses Harris out. Saints obviously likes Usama Young and David Jones better than Houston so they passed. Alan Branch has no work ethic and thats why he dropped to the 2nd round.

So, what have we learned today, kids?You're and idiot?

Meachem, while he might have been the BPA on the Saints board, was not a "can't miss" WR prospect, and thus should not have been taken. As of today, he's not better than Devery Henderson. Our offense did not need any help, and our defense needed tons of help. A guy like Puz would have been a perfect pick; Meachem was a terrible pick, and the fact that you're seriously trying to defend that pick, really shows your intelligence.I've explained why the Poz pick would have been a bad one. He would have sat the bench.

We draft Meachem this year and there is not guarantee that Devery will even be with the team next year because the market for inconsistent WR's has been off the chart. Stallworth, Welker, etc...

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-15-2007, 03:13 PM
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah a!!!!!!

Excuse me, it's just that I got a comment from Acreboy saying "Well, at least I know my team."

Please.

Apparently not one person with any ounce of NFL knowledge knows "your" team, because EVERYBODY will agree that the Saints' offense is gold and their defense is crap. How does taking a WR help make that defense any better, again?

You're either defending a poor draft choice because you're too much of a homer to criticize "your" team, or you're defending a poor draft choice because you're ignorant. You choose.

Acreboy
05-15-2007, 03:37 PM
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah a!!!!!!

Excuse me, it's just that I got a comment from Acreboy saying "Well, at least I know my team."

Please.

Apparently not one person with any ounce of NFL knowledge knows "your" team, because EVERYBODY will agree that the Saints' offense is gold and their defense is crap. How does taking a WR help make that defense any better, again?

You're either defending a poor draft choice because you're too much of a homer to criticize "your" team, or you're defending a poor draft choice because you're ignorant. You choose.
I'll trust the judgment of the Saints coaching staff and scout team before you or anyone else's opinion of who they "should" have drafted.

I mean if you're so good maybe you should try and get on with an NFL team as a scout?

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-15-2007, 03:49 PM
I'll trust the judgment of the Saints coaching staff and scout team before you or anyone else's opinion of who they "should" have drafted.

I mean if you're so good maybe you should try and get on with an NFL team as a scout?

It doesn't take an NFL scout to know that the Saints have a great offense and a terrible defense. Furthermore, common logic tells you that if you have the #1 offense in the NFL and are bringing back literally the exact same unit (Horn really wasn't a factor at all in 06), coupled with HUGE holes on defense, you address the defense with your first round pick. It's not like there was just one defensive position of need, either. Our LBs, DTs, and CBs are all subpar and could use upgrading. Low and behold, there was a top LB prospect, a top DT prospect, AND a top CB prospect on the board at #27. What did we take? WR. It's a terrible pick, and don't think I haven't questioned the judgment of the guys in charge of making that decision. Doesn't mean you're not wrong for agreeing with it.

Arguing with you is like arguing with a rock. A rock with a really, really low football IQ.

Acreboy
05-15-2007, 04:01 PM
It doesn't take an NFL scout to know that the Saints have a great offense and a terrible defense. Furthermore, common logic tells you that if you have the #1 offense in the NFL and are bringing back literally the exact same unit (Horn really wasn't a factor at all in 06), coupled with HUGE holes on defense, you address the defense with your first round pick. It's not like there was just one defensive position of need, either. Our LBs, DTs, and CBs are all subpar and could use upgrading. Low and behold, there was a top LB prospect, a top DT prospect, AND a top CB prospect on the board at #27. What did we take? WR. It's a terrible pick, and don't think I haven't questioned the judgment of the guys in charge of making that decision. Doesn't mean you're not wrong for agreeing with it.

Arguing with you is like arguing with a rock. A rock with a really, really low football IQ.
There was no first round talent at a need position sitting there in round 1. LB's are average, far from Sub par. CB's are average now after the draft. Usama Young is every bit as good as Chris Houston. I think so and the Saints think so. Only position that was worth upgrading was the DT position. Dude, face it there was no one there worth taking. Why draft Poz when he's going to ride the bench for about 3 years? Why draft Chris Houston when he's going to be the dime back? No DT worth taking. Everyone left on the board was 2nd round talent.

Shiver
05-15-2007, 04:10 PM
There was no first round talent at a need position sitting there in round 1. LB's are average, far from Sub par. CB's are average now after the draft. Usama Young is every bit as good as Chris Houston. I think so and the Saints think so. Only position that was worth upgrading was the DT position. Dude, face it there was no one there worth taking. Why draft Poz when he's going to ride the bench for about 3 years? Why draft Chris Houston when he's going to be the dime back? No DT worth taking. Everyone left on the board was 2nd round talent.


I disagree with all three of those assertions.

Acreboy
05-15-2007, 04:27 PM
I disagree with all three of those assertions.Care to elaborate other than saying you disagree?

You could argue about who was better Houston or Young. Poz would not start over Fujita, Shanle or Simmons. And please tell me 1 DT worth taking at that spot? Branch takes plays off and is lazy. Not a 1st round pick.

Saints made the right choice.

Shiver
05-15-2007, 04:29 PM
Why should I elaborate? It would be a waste of time. Almost everyone thinks, and is probably correct in thinking, that you are a homer for the Saints and LSU. It would be tantamount to me trying to persuade a brick wall. I've already written up my beliefs on the Saints draft, and how I thought it was a mistake. I don't feel like rewriting it.

Acreboy
05-15-2007, 04:33 PM
Why should I elaborate? It would be a waste of time. Almost everyone thinks, and is probably correct in thinking, that you are a homer for the Saints and LSU.And it's impossible for Homers to be right.

Meachem was BPA and was a good pick. End of story as far as i'm concerned.

Shiver
05-15-2007, 04:40 PM
And it's impossible for Homers to be right.

Meachem was BPA and was a good pick. End of story as far as i'm concerned.

Which is exactly why "debating" it with you is pointless. You've made up your mind. You practically have your fingers in your ears chanting "la-la-la-la-la, I'm not listening." Two of the most reputable Saints' fans here disagree with your defense of the pick.

49ersfan_87
05-15-2007, 04:44 PM
From a BPA standpoint, i actually liked the robert meachem pick. Im not to sure i wouldnt go defense,but if you want to take the best football player available at your pick, so long as you arent stacked at the position, im for it.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 05:05 PM
Jesus Christ, I really didn't want to get into this. But, here goes anyway:

The Saints draft the BPA. Period. That's been their strategy for a good while and with Sean Payton being in the draft room, it only enforces our philosophy. Drafting BPA has given us players like Deuce McAllister (when we already had Ricky Williams) & Will Smith (when we already had Charles Grant & Darren Howard). So, when people say "OMG DEFENSIVE NEEDS PLZ~" step back and realize that if a defensive player was rated highly enough he would have been taken.

Granted, I've warmed up a bit to the Meachem pick, but you know, I know, and everybody else knows that the Saints needed to address their defense early and often, something which they simply did not do.

Hm, giving up a fourth for a starting CB, taking a CB in round 3.. seems like we tried to upgrade our biggest weakness before the draft and during the draft.

Colston/Henderson/Copper/Patten is a solid WR corps. At this point, Meachem really ISN'T all that much better than Henderson, and he certainly doesn't impact the team in the way that a guy like Paul Posluszny could and would have.

Let's see:

Henderson is a very good deep threat, but it still highly inconsistent and if memory serves is on the last year of his rookie contract.
Cooper is a solid WR, but only signed a one-year tender.
Patten is a solid WR that brings veteran experience, but also has injury concerns and if I believe correctly only signed a one-year deal as well.

Robert Meachem is not the "can't miss" WR prospect that you take just because he's the BPA when you have huge holes all over your defense and there's a group of potential impact defensive players like Posluszny, Houston, Harris, and Branch on the board.

Please stop knocking the pick and knock the system of taking BPA over a need. Meachem might not have been a "can't miss WR prospect" but apparently neither were Houston, Harris, & Poz all whom slipped to the second round. Am I saying that those players aren't going to amount to good, or even great players in the league? Not at all, but it does suggest that other teams didn't grade those players out highly either. And Alan Branch? With the few character problems and work ethic rumors that were floating around, did you REALLY expect Payton to select this guy? Get real.

Apparently not one person with any ounce of NFL knowledge knows "your" team, because EVERYBODY will agree that the Saints' offense is gold and their defense is crap.

Crap? That's a little overblown. I agree that our defense definitely wasn't stellar, but it sure did keep us in a lot more games than people give us credit for and ended up being ranked 11th in the league. Was it eventually or downfall? Yeah, you could say that, but it definitely wasn't "crap". And, our biggest weakness last year was Fred Thomas. We upgraded him with Jason David and even though the jury is out on how good David actually is he's still an upgrade over Thomas and that ALONE helps out our so called "crappy defense".

Low and behold, there was a top LB prospect, a top DT prospect, AND a top CB prospect on the board at #27.

Again, it's all about grading out. If those prospects WERE the "top" at their position, it would make sense that would have been selected at a place in the draft to reflect that.

I disagree with all three of those assertions.

I agree with two. I had a huge mancrush on Chris Houston and he was my 3rd favorite prospect overall in the draft. I'm not as high on Poz as some people are, however, he would have been able to get playing time with his versatility. As for the DT comment... to me, there was not a DT worth taking at 27 at all. You could mention Alan Branch, but no way in hell is he a Sean Payton type of player.

Saints67
05-15-2007, 05:13 PM
TPFKA...

Meachem, was the BPA and the highest rated on the Saints board (Payton and Loomis has made this known)....so that explains the pick...

but also, our WR corp needed a addition to it either way. After Colston/Henderson, we didn't have much. You seem to forget that the WR run came towards the bottom of round 1 on through round 2 and 3...probaly hampering the Saints to pick a good WR prospect later.

yes, we needed to rebuild the D/or add depth. But we added some defensive FA's and got some young corners (what we needed the most). Though, our D is still average but it will be better...plus the O scoring points/play keep-away will help as well.

a WR was a need as well, and we filled that.

Seasonticketholder
05-15-2007, 05:39 PM
The Saints should have draft defense in the first.

No, they should not have.

Geo
05-15-2007, 05:39 PM
Alan Branch falling all the way to the 33rd pick isn't a coincidence, especially when he was passed up by teams that could have used a tackle of his promise on paper.

Notice how all of the "bust" defensive tackles taken in the 1st round in the last 5 years or so came at the expense of teams with spotty scouting and/or decision-making. While the teams with better scouting and evaluation services have done otherwise, most notably the Patriots having built their currently dominating front line with three Top 20 picks in a four-year-span.

Seasonticketholder
05-15-2007, 05:41 PM
I was a little worried when they picked up Meachem in the first, cause that's just another weapon for Brees to use...but he honestly isn't that much scarier than Henderson...so I think they improved their depth, but they could have made their team better with someone on the defensive side of the ball. I think that this is pretty much a no story like many of the Saints fans have said, and I think he'll be a good weapon for them...but I'm glad we have a guy who played him real solid man to man =)

Played him solidly? Really? He gave up four catches for 65 and a touchdown and had several other pass interference calls for about 50 more yards. And Meacham was playing with a terrible QB. Also, Meacham is like a combination between Colston and Henderson. Great speed, but big target who will definitely form a nice tandem with Colston.

Seasonticketholder
05-15-2007, 05:43 PM
I couldn't agree more.


On a side note; I am glad Atlanta drafted a cover corner who dominated both Dwayne Jarrett (Carolina) and Robert Meachem (New Orleans) last year. He will likely be matched up against them again this year.

Shiver, I see you are back to playing fast and loose with the facts. Meacham had 65 yards and a touchdown against him. That's hardly being dominated. And if you combine those 65 yards with the penalty yards against Houston for pass interference, it was clear that Houston could not stay with Meacham.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 05:44 PM
Alan Branch falling all the way to the 33rd pick isn't a coincidence, especially when he was passed up by teams that could have used a tackle of his promise on paper.

Precisely. To me, he seems like Jonathan Sullivan Deux -- not saying he's going to be a bust, but there were far superior players on the board when we selected.

Seasonticketholder
05-15-2007, 05:47 PM
I'm just going from what Mike Mayock showed on game-tape. Houston was excellent against Jarrett, Meachem, Bowe, but struggled against Rice.

Mayock showed a few clips, not an entire game and only showed clips to support his argument. He constantly does that for guys he like. He did the same thing last year when analyzing Jay Cutler. Anyway, Jarrett was injured. Bowe had 5 catches, 68 yards while LSU ran for a bunch of yards and other WRs did okay. I have already discussed what Meacham did against Houston. Houston took him down. Houston is very physical but he is pass interference waiting to happen. But Mayock is a fool and manipulates the facts all the time to make his points seem more credible and poignant than they really are.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 05:52 PM
It's easier to just wrap up all the points/argument into one post, Seasonticketholder.

I remember on ESPN's Meachem highlight tape Meachem dominated an arkansas CB on his TD don't remember if it was on Houston.It was Houston.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfAPiUO7Mlg

It starts around the 50 second mark.

Seasonticketholder
05-15-2007, 05:59 PM
Ugh... who's "whistle" did you have to blow to get repped out of a red bar?

I hate, hate, HATE when homerism is so blatantly obvious. You're doing all you can to make a BAD pick seem like a GOOD pick, just because it was YOUR TEAM's pick. Granted, I've warmed up a bit to the Meachem pick, but you know, I know, and everybody else knows that the Saints needed to address their defense early and often, something which they simply did not do. Yes, Meachem was pretty good value at #27. But only teams that are solid all-around can afford to draft purely for BPA and depth; teams with glaring weaknesses, such as the Saints, need to take guys that will make them instantly better, not instantly deeper.

Colston/Henderson/Copper/Patten is a solid WR corps. At this point, Meachem really ISN'T all that much better than Henderson, and he certainly doesn't impact the team in the way that a guy like Paul Posluszny could and would have. I'm a Saints homer too, but I'm also a smart guy, and Robert Meachem is not the "can't miss" WR prospect that you take just because he's the BPA when you have huge holes all over your defense and there's a group of potential impact defensive players like Posluszny, Houston, Harris, and Branch on the board.

So, what have we learned today, kids?

Meachem, while he might have been the BPA on the Saints board, was not a "can't miss" WR prospect, and thus should not have been taken. As of today, he's not better than Devery Henderson. Our offense did not need any help, and our defense needed tons of help. A guy like Puz would have been a perfect pick; Meachem was a terrible pick, and the fact that you're seriously trying to defend that pick, really shows your intelligence.

As of today, Puz is not better than Shanle. I mean, right now, you are talking hypotheticals more than anything. You believed that the Saints needed a defensive player. I personally felt that we needed to go wide receiver and said as much from the end of the season. Devery Henderson is in the final year of his deal and is inconsistent. Terrance Copper is better suited to be a third or fourth receiver and is also working on a one year deal. Marques Colston will likely be looking for a new contract at season's end. Now, we would not lose him anyway as he will be an exclusive rights' free agent once his contract does end. But if your offense is what has gotten you to the NFC Championship, you have to make sure you keep that side of the ball stout while continuing to try to upgrade your defense. Meacham gives Drew Brees another weapon and a guy who looks like he will be a more consistent and dependable threat than Henderson. He's also not the one-trick pony that Henderson is. The worst thing that could have happen to the Saints was to regressed offensively and even with adding Posluszney, the defense would not be solid enough to put them back into the NFC Championship and, even more, beyond it to the Superbowl.

I think the Saints have quietly upgraded areas of the defense. Last year, for all the criticism the defense got, the Saints ranked #11 behind San Diego. The year before they were #13. Now, I am not delusional about our need to continue to upgrade the defense but it is not as bad as it seems. Fred Thomas was the biggest weak link and he has been replaced. Not only did the Saints sign Jason David but I have been hearing nothing but really good things about Usama Young, our second pick and some are already suggesting he might challenge for a starting position. Also, one thing you must remember about our defense is this...because the Saints showed the ability to score fast at times, that increased the opportunities that opposing offenses got against us. Nevertheless, we were #13 in points given up. I guarantee if you look at points-per-possession, we likely ranked in the top five. So, our defense has its issues. But upgrading the MLB with Simmons, getting Kaevishorn (who is a ballhawk), and adding David and Young, should help. Plus, we get back Roman Harper, who before he got hurt, was looking like our second best defender behind Will Smith and was helping us to stop the run earlier in the season.

Saints Fan in Austin
05-15-2007, 06:00 PM
Meachem was a solid choice. It's May, not September. He will be okay.

Flyboy, Belladonna is the best "star" of the last five years easy!

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-15-2007, 06:03 PM
I can't believe I even have to type this.

I laugh at the notion, Flyboy, that the Saints have always drafted BPA, or that it's been their philosophy for a long time. Well, you know what? The Saints have sucked for a long time. Maybe it's time to change that so-called philosophy.

There are two, and only two types of teams that should always draft BPA (as you say the Saints do) over need. The first type are the teams that are very solid from top to bottom and can afford the luxury of drafting for BPA/depth; the second type are the teams that are coming off an awful season, or are in a rebuilding process, and need the best players they can get regardless of position (they likely need help in a lot of places, anyway). The only exception to the rule, in my opinion, is when a "can't miss" player or a player who was expected to go much higher falls to you. This is what happened with Deuce McAllister.

The Saints are a lot farther from being a legitimate Superbowl team than a lot of Saints fans are willing to admit. Yes, we made it to the NFC Championship last season in a weak NFC, and look what happened: we got embarrassed in Chicago. Chicago ran for 200 rushing yards and put up 39 points on us. A lot of people say we could have won, or at least had a much better chance of winning that game if we would have been more efficient on offense and not had four turnovers. Therein lies the problem. If our offense is not clicking, we get beat, and bad. We cannot rely on our defense to win, or even have a chance of winning games when our offense doesn't put up 400 yards and 30 points. Are we really counting on the offense alone to put us in championship contention? "Defense wins Championships" may be cliche, but it's true -- look at the Colts. It's no coincidence that they FINALLY won their championship when their defense stepped up and played lights out in the playoffs.

Last season, we gave up 130 rushing yards and 20 points per game, and our pass defense was a lot worse than the numbers would have you believe. Did we really do enough to fix it? Are we REALLY counting on Jason David and a 31 year old, injury prone LB to be the saviors? I'm fine with Usama Young, but he's a project player, plain and simple. Did we really do enough to upgrade the defense?

Meanwhile, our offense averaged a cool 392 yards and 26 points per game. We really lost nobody of importance on offense (as much as I loved Joe, he's done). We are capable of winning shootouts. Problem is, we shouldn't be aiming to play in shootouts. With a solid defense this team becomes a legit Superbowl contender. It makes me so angry to hear this best player available garbage. We already have one of the best offenses available, now we HAVE to put together the best defense available.

Do I really think that one player is going to change our defense around? Absolutely not. But we needed to do a whole hell of a lot more than what we did this offseason to make it work. Next year is going to be the same story, you'll see. We'll be in a LOT of shootouts... good thing we'll have that shiny new weapon at WR. Then, come February, Saints fans everywhere will be watching two other teams play in the Superbowl, for the 42nd time in a row.

Shiver
05-15-2007, 06:04 PM
Mayock showed a few clips, not an entire game and only showed clips to support his argument.

That is his job. He has to summarize game-tapes for viewers in short 30-second clips. He cannot do it any other way.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 06:04 PM
OMG, Greg made a post! And, yeah, she is.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 06:13 PM
You know, TDF8037E8YH3IOHNEJHWD is just about if not as stubborn as Acreboy when it comes to debating an issue. I'm going to post this and leave the issue alone:

When it comes to philosophy of the draft, the New Orleans Saints have long subscribed to the theory of taking the best player available. Listening to Executive Vice President/General Manager Mickey Loomis, the 2007 Draft will be no different.

The 2006 Executive of the Year said Saturday morning that the moves made by the team so far this offseason have allowed the Saints to go into the process looking for the most talented player that can make an impact on the roster.

We go into this offseason as we always do - hoping we can get to the draft with the ability to take the best guy available," said Loomis. "That has served us well over the last few years with guys like Will Smith and Deuce McAllister - positions that we didn't really have a need for at the time but they were the best guys on the board - we took them, and they've become two of our best players."

...

"The times where we've said 'We've got to have a certain position,' we've made a major mistake," he recounted. "I'm pleased that our offseason has brought us to this point today where we're in a position to take the best player available, regardless of position. What I'm hoping for is that we'll have four or five guys available to us when we pick that are all clumped together in terms of our evaluation and then we can go to see where we might have a little stronger need."

http://www.neworleanssaints.com/newsroomarticle.cfm?articleid=3418

Yawn. I'm done. We had Meachem graded out higher than any other defensive player on the board. Period.

Shiver
05-15-2007, 06:16 PM
I understand that. That still doesn't make their board infallible, or best for their team, though. I think a lesser graded player, on defense, would've helped the '07 Saints a lot more than Meachem will.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 06:18 PM
Didn't say it did, but neither does it make it a horrible/bad pick as some people are trying to make it out to be.

EDIT: Yeah, yeah, I know I said I was done but I *heart* Shiver. No ****.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-15-2007, 06:19 PM
You know, TDF8037E8YH3IOHNEJHWD is just about if not as stubborn as Acreboy when it comes to debating an issue. I'm going to post this and leave the issue alone:


http://www.neworleanssaints.com/newsroomarticle.cfm?articleid=3418

Yawn. I'm done. We had Meachem graded out higher than any other defensive player on the board. Period.

Way to completely ignore every point made in my last post. Come talk to me in January, after the defense fails us again. I have no doubt in my mind we'll be talking about how the Saints need defensive help yet again come 2008 draft time. Let's all hope the BPA at that point can play some D-Line or Linebacker.

Shiver
05-15-2007, 06:20 PM
Who has said it was horrible?

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-15-2007, 06:20 PM
Didn't say it did, but neither does it make it a horrible/bad pick as some people are trying to make it out to be.

EDIT: Yeah, yeah, I know I said I was done but I *heart* Shiver. No ****.

Yawn. You're done.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 06:22 PM
Way to completely ignore every point made in my last post.

Because you'd shrug everything off and go into some long diatribe of how you're right and even if someone makes a solid point you'd ignore it since you're so stuck in your ways. Yeah, that sounds like a world of fun.

Come talk to me in January, after the defense fails us again.

The loss in the NFCCG could be blamed on the offense just as much the defense so please. Don't even try to use that as your prime example.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-15-2007, 06:23 PM
Because you'd shrug everything off and go into some long diatribe of how you're right and even if someone makes a solid point you'd ignore it since you're so stuck in your ways. Yeah, that sounds like a world of fun.



The loss in the NFCCG could be blamed on the offense just as much the defense so please. Don't even try to use that as your prime example.

Yawn. You're not done?

DeathbyStat
05-15-2007, 06:23 PM
I love Meachem, but Poz, Branch or Houston all would have been much better picks there. I think Meachem can be the OROY next season, but it really won't help the Saints that much.

I don't agree with the pick....but I think he can be OROY due to the offense he is in. if he gets enough playing time.

bearsfan_51
05-15-2007, 06:23 PM
I would bet good money that if I had made a mock with Meachem to the Saints with Poz or Branch still available the majority of Saints fans would have **** bricks.

You are absolutely right #1SaintsFan and I commend you for being so objective. It's merely defending the pick your team makes, and people do it alllllllll the time. Just look at Packers fans and the Justin Harrell pick.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 06:24 PM
Who has said it was horrible?

Second page, TF89923DJDKJLS.

Meachem was a terrible pick

Excuse me. I didn't use the correct adjective.

Shiver
05-15-2007, 06:24 PM
This controversy amongst Saints fans entertains me.

BlindSite
05-15-2007, 06:26 PM
Yea.... I liked Sidney Rice and Dwayne Jarrett more then Bowe and Meachem. Just keep that in mind.

I still had Dwayne Jarrett as my number 2 receiver after CJ.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 06:27 PM
I would bet good money that if I had made a mock with Meachem to the Saints with Poz or Branch still available the majority of Saints fans would have **** bricks.


People that know how we draft wouldn't be surprised at all. Poz, yeah, I could see some fallout for but us taking a WR in the first was not far fetched at all. Hell, some even considered Greg Olsen for us in the first because again of the BPA we utilize.

Yawn. You're not done?

Guess not. I lied.

BlindSite
05-15-2007, 06:29 PM
True, but I was thinking back to his tampa days where he used something like 5 first day picks on busts, 3 in the first round and then there were the trades, oh, the god-awful trades.

I hope they do well, I don't mind watching atlanta and they were fun to watch in 04 when mora was being more creative and less whiney.

I hate to see you win, but I love to watch you play lol.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-15-2007, 06:29 PM
This controversy amongst Saints fans entertains me.

It frustrates me.

We are no longer talking about the New Orleans Saints. Two options, same (nameless) team, you make the call:

Option A: Make one of the best offenses in the NFL better by drafting a first round offensive talent.

Option B: Make one of the worst defenses in the NFL better by drafting a first round defensive talent.

I rest my f'n case. I'm glad someone respectable agrees with me (bf_51).

TacticaLion
05-15-2007, 06:34 PM
Didn't Calvin Johnson show up at Lions Camp out of shape? And like others have said, Colston was out of shape this time last year. It's no big deal. To call him a bust already is ridiculous.

Umm... no. Calvin Johnson has showed up to each practice in great shape and has only impressed the coaches, players and analysts.

Calvin Johnson shined last week at rookie mini-camp so I expected when the vets joined him today that he would look good. He didn’t. He looked great. His speed was still clearly head and shoulders above everyone else and he clearly will be a star.

I didn't really see it during the rookie camp but Calvin Johnson is really showing off his speed. The kid is definitely fast and you can see his quickness going in and coming out of his breaks. He does it fluidly and doesn't stumble or slow down to gather his feet.

Johnson has taken the first step in regards to becoming a successful NFL receiver, showing up at his first full-team practice prepared and ready to go. Quarterback Jon Kitna was impressed with the rookie’s knowledge of where he should be and the confidence he exuded on the field.

“The great thing is he breaks the huddle and doesn’t have that quizzical look on his face,” said Kitna. “Coming out of the huddle, bam, he’s out there. You see guys who’ve been in it for a year and they still have got that ‘I’m not quite sure what I’m supposed to do’ look. But he doesn’t have that, so he’s either fooling us or he knows what he’s doing.

Seriously, did you hear it somewhere or just make it up?

Geo
05-15-2007, 06:38 PM
I would bet good money that if I had made a mock with Meachem to the Saints with Poz or Branch still available the majority of Saints fans would have **** bricks.

You are absolutely right #1SaintsFan and I commend you for being so objective. It's merely defending the pick your team makes, and people do it alllllllll the time. Just look at Packers fans and the Justin Harrell pick.
Who should the Packers have taken instead? Leon Hall? Michael Griffin?

I can see the Harrell pick. Thompson is building one of the best defenses in the NFC, which means they have a better chance of getting into the playoffs than depending on Favre who can't win games like he did ten years ago.

I still had Dwayne Jarrett as my number 2 receiver after CJ.
Interesting. I didn't have Jarrett in my Top 5, and he probably would have just made my Top 10 if that.

BlindSite
05-15-2007, 06:40 PM
It frustrates me.

We are no longer talking about the New Orleans Saints. Two options, same (nameless) team, you make the call:

Option A: Make one of the best offenses in the NFL better by drafting a first round offensive talent.

Option B: Make one of the worst defenses in the NFL better by drafting a first round defensive talent.

I rest my f'n case. I'm glad someone respectable agrees with me (bf_51).

I agree balance is what's needed, you guys still need a second corner back.

bearsfan_51
05-15-2007, 06:42 PM
Who should the Packers have taken instead? Leon Hall? Michael Griffin?

I can see the Harrell pick. Thompson is building one of the best defenses in the NFC, which means they have a better chance of getting into the playoffs than depending on Favre who can't win games like he did ten years ago.
I'd have gone with Hall, Griffin, Olsen, Meachem, or Bowe all before Harrell.

But that's not my point. My point is that post-draft people talk about what a great pick their team made irrespective of what pick it is, when in reality they would have hated the pick if someone else had mocked it for them prior to the draft. I would guess that a good 95-98% of all Packers fans would have gone ape **** on those who mocked Harrell to them at 16. But as soon as their team actually makes it a majority of them completely change their tunes.

And for the record I'm not singling out Packers. This applies to fans of all teams obviously.

SaintsMan
05-15-2007, 06:42 PM
Umm... no. Calvin Johnson has showed up to each practice in great shape and has only impressed the coaches, players and analysts.



I heard it from somewhere, but wasn't sure it was true, that's why I put a question mark. Until I see it confirmed, I will take your word.

SaintsMan
05-15-2007, 06:45 PM
We should rename this thread, #1 Saintsfan Saints bashing "Everyone join in the fun". It's getting ridiculous.

Geo
05-15-2007, 06:46 PM
Olsen and Meachem aren't worth the 16th overall pick, personally. I'd sooner laugh the team out of the building if they drafted either of those two over Harrell. A serious case could be made for Bowe, who could be a beast in a WCO imo, although if the Packers are in fact looking for a homerun threat then I could see why they passed him.

Also, the Saints signed Jason David, who is proven as a decent starter for three years in the league. They do need to continue to bring in young, quick talent at corner though to groom behind McKenzie (I saw Harrison run McKenzie ragged last pre-season and think the same could happen in the season opener).

TigerBait45
05-15-2007, 06:51 PM
I think its very easy to sit on both sides of the fence as a Saints fan. Personally, I like Meachem a lot and I think it was a good pick (we needed a good receiver) but I would've loved to see Poz in a Saints uniform just as much.

Honestly, I was disappointed at first. I don't care if hes the best player on the board, theres a point where you just have to look at your team needs and address them. I agree with both sides of the argument here.

The guy I wanted most was probably Greg Olsen, in case you're wondering.

I also think that the Saints upgraded the defense more than a lot of fans realize. Brian Simmons is a pretty solid linebacker; hes very much worth of starting for us. I'm also really high on Scott Fujita and Shanle.

Signing Jason David took a first round corner out of the equation for good reason. Houston would've been a pretty bad pick in that situation because he more than likely wouldn't have played for a while.

Another thing..lets be honest. The defense was pretty solid until Roman Harper went down and Fred Thomas forgot how to cover. Harper comes back (hes pretty much the captiain of the defense), and Thomas is probably off the field entirely. Usama Young is drawing high praise from the coaching staff, as is David Jones.

TacticaLion
05-15-2007, 06:51 PM
I heard it from somewhere, but wasn't sure it was true, that's why I put a question mark. Until I see it confirmed, I will take your word.

My bad... didn't mean to snap.

For the record, all I've heard is that he's shown up and has worked his ass off. He has admitted that the offense isn't easy to grasp, and that the speed is much faster in the NFL, but he's impressing everyone.

Seasonticketholder
05-15-2007, 06:55 PM
I would bet good money that if I had made a mock with Meachem to the Saints with Poz or Branch still available the majority of Saints fans would have **** bricks.

You are absolutely right #1SaintsFan and I commend you for being so objective. It's merely defending the pick your team makes, and people do it alllllllll the time. Just look at Packers fans and the Justin Harrell pick.

Not necessarily true. I don't post here too much. Usually I am on Saintsreport.com But I have stated that we needed a WR from the end of the season and had us taking one in every single mock draft. There were other Saints fans on Saintsreport who felt the same way. So, while Saintsreport.com does not have every single Saints fan on it, you do get a good consensus of the prevailing opinion about what the team should do.

Seasonticketholder
05-15-2007, 06:57 PM
My bad... didn't mean to snap.

For the record, all I've heard is that he's shown up and has worked his ass off. He has admitted that the offense isn't easy to grasp, and that the speed is much faster in the NFL, but he's impressing everyone.

Actually, there was an article that ran in the Detroit Free Press right after the Lions had the rookie minicamp. It said that he looked good catching the ball but that he, even by his own admission, was out-of-shape and was winded on more than one occasion. He had to take some breaks. It was explained the same way that it is being explained for Meacham: when you travel around meeting with teams and have all these appearances--and Johnson had much more appearances than Meacham--then it is difficult for you to get the type of time you would like to work out.

SaintsMan
05-15-2007, 06:58 PM
My bad... didn't mean to snap.

For the record, all I've heard is that he's shown up and has worked his ass off. He has admitted that the offense isn't easy to grasp, and that the speed is much faster in the NFL, but he's impressing everyone.

I'm the same way, man. And I didn't think it was true when I heard it but you never know sometimes. CJ is going to be a Monster.

Shiver
05-15-2007, 06:59 PM
It frustrates me.

We are no longer talking about the New Orleans Saints. Two options, same (nameless) team, you make the call:

Option A: Make one of the best offenses in the NFL better by drafting a first round offensive talent.

Option B: Make one of the worst defenses in the NFL better by drafting a first round defensive talent.

I rest my f'n case. I'm glad someone respectable agrees with me (bf_51).

Um, what about me?

Phrost
05-15-2007, 06:59 PM
To say that Simms has done very little to lose that role would be like saying that Michael Vick has done very little in terms of setting records in the NFL. Regardless of what everyone wants to say, Vick's name is etched, more than likely permanently in the NFL record books. Simms has been nothing more than a QB that manages games well SOMETIMES and loses games others. Obviously you are going to know more about the Bucs than me because I don't watch them every week, but I see the 'highlights' on Sportscenter, and I see a lot of games, just not all 16 like you. Simms isn't a great QB, and he couldn't be the QB of the future for any NFL franchise, he's just not that good of a QB. He's Trent Dilfer at best, and that's after he gets his head on straight and quits tossing the ball to the other team.


At this point in their careers, neither QB wins games for there teams. Actually they both lose more games for their teams than they win. Neither QB is in a situation that fits their needs however.

Also if you were to put Simms in a vertical offense with a decent running game, at least one decent target, and a good offensive line, he would be a probowler.

Basically put him on the Vikings with a better coach and see what happens.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-15-2007, 07:00 PM
Another thing..lets be honest. The defense was pretty solid until Roman Harper went down and Fred Thomas forgot how to cover. Harper comes back (hes pretty much the captiain of the defense), and Thomas is probably off the field entirely. Usama Young is drawing high praise from the coaching staff, as is David Jones.

Solid until Harper went down? For a whole five weeks? If only that were even true... giving up 385 yards and 27 points to Green Bay, 324 yards and 21 points to Carolina, and 406 yards and 21 points to Tampa Bay is hardly "solid." Then again, I wouldn't really call a rookie who plays in 4 and a half games the "captain" of the defense, either.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-15-2007, 07:01 PM
Um, what about me?

Oh yeah, you too... but it seemed like you're kinda sitting on the fence towards the end of this thread. I'd love to have you on my side, too. :)

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 07:01 PM
Actually, there was an article that ran in the Detroit Free Press right after the Lions had the rookie minicamp. It said that he looked good catching the ball but that he, even by his own admission, was out-of-shape and was winded on more than one occasion. He had to take some breaks. It was explained the same way that it is being explained for Meacham: when you travel around meeting with teams and have all these appearances--and Johnson had much more appearances than Meacham--then it is difficult for you to get the type of time you would like to work out.

Actually by that logic, Johnson would have more time to travel because he knew he was going top four. Meachem had no clue as to how high or how low he was going therefore he had to workout for a lot more teams.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 07:03 PM
Then again, I wouldn't really call a rookie who plays in 4 and a half games the "captain" of the defense, either.

Even though he put all the defensive players in position of where they were supposed to line up pre-snap? Okay.

SaintsMan
05-15-2007, 07:04 PM
Not necessarily true. I don't post here too much. Usually I am on Saintsreport.com But I have stated that we needed a WR from the end of the season and had us taking one in every single mock draft. There were other Saints fans on Saintsreport who felt the same way. So, while Saintsreport.com does not have every single Saints fan on it, you do get a good consensus of the prevailing opinion about what the team should do.

This is true, I spend hours and hours on Saintsreport.com every night and most wanted or thought the BPA at 27 would be a WR. I, myself, wanted a WR very badly over the likes of Houston, Poz and Branch wasn't even a consideration. Also, it's been noted that Robert Meachem wasn't just the PBA at 27, he was the PBA significantly. The Saints even tried to trade up for Meachem when they saw he was falling since he was so high on their board, but were unsuccessful.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-15-2007, 07:04 PM
Even though he put all the defensive players in position of where they were supposed to line up pre-snap? Okay.

Well, you flat out just made that up to try and make me look bad. You're really showing signs of defeat. Weren't you leaving this thread a few pages ago?

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 07:06 PM
Well, you flat out just made that up to try and make me look bad. You're really showing signs of defeat. Weren't you leaving this thread a few pages ago?

I made up the fact that Harper called out plays for the defense when he was starting as rookie? Okay, man, whatever you say. And, if you noticed I also said that I lied.

SaintsMan
05-15-2007, 07:08 PM
Well, you flat out just made that up to try and make me look bad. You're really showing signs of defeat. Weren't you leaving this thread a few pages ago?

If you would watch some Saints games and maybe read some articles on the Saints, you would know what he's saying is true. It seems like you don't know much about the Saints and I have my doubts you are even a fan.

Shiver
05-15-2007, 07:08 PM
Basically it comes down to the fact that Sean Payton is an offensive minded coach. In fact, he will do anything to acquire weapons for him to use. He would rather win in a shootout, which they will have to do a lot next year, than play balanced football.

SaintsMan
05-15-2007, 07:12 PM
Basically it comes down to the fact that Sean Payton is an offensive minded coach. In fact, he will do anything to acquire weapons for him to use. He would rather win in a shootout, which they will have to do a lot next year, than play balanced football.

We did upgrade the Defense. No, they aren't probowlers but they are very good football players. And it's not like we didn't try to fill more holes in FA, you can't force someone to sign with your team.

Seasonticketholder
05-15-2007, 07:12 PM
Olsen and Meachem aren't worth the 16th overall pick, personally. I'd sooner laugh the team out of the building if they drafted either of those two over Harrell. A serious case could be made for Bowe, who could be a beast in a WCO imo, although if the Packers are in fact looking for a homerun threat then I could see why they passed him.

Also, the Saints signed Jason David, who is proven as a decent starter for three years in the league. They do need to continue to bring in young, quick talent at corner though to groom behind McKenzie (I saw Harrison run McKenzie ragged last pre-season and think the same could happen in the season opener).

They brought in two: Usama Young and David Jones. It is only rookie minicamp but Young has been steadily impressing. The folk in New Orleans are saying that he could challenge for the starting position. He looked outstanding out there and should only get better as he participates in the OTAs. Jones is a ballhawk. He might take a little more time to develop than Young but there were a lot of nice things being said about him as well. Sean Payton is very high on these two guys. The thing is, the average fan only knows of so many "names" and so most of our analysis/critiques are based upon the "little" we know. Young and Jones come from smaller programs but these guys have a lot of potential and from what I have read and heard are both smart players who are able to grasp things quickly. I think a lot of people overrate the problems with our defenses and underrate the issues on offense. Great playcalling and having a guy like Reggie Bush who could serve as a decoy on a lot of plays helped us. But at some point, you have to have talent out there that can "consistently" come up with the big play or, at the very least, help move the chains.

The reason the Colts address the offense most of the time is because they want to make sure that their offense remains in tip top shape. They will never have a championship defense but they can have a defense good enough to buttress what the offense is able to do and get them to where they need to be. It is that way for most teams. The Ravens tend to make sure that their defense, more than anything else, remains solid. You have to keep your strengths your strengths as you seek to improve your weaknesses elsewhere.

Finally, the Saints have lately drafted best player available. Historically, THEY DID NOT DO THIS. And we have been burned for not doing it. See Alex Molden or Johnanthan Sullivan as examples of what happens when you draft strictly for "need." Now, if you look at the previous three drafts, the Saints have arguably done a better job as any team in the NFL in the first rond. They drafted Will Smith who is a probowler. They drafted Jammal Brown who is a probowler. They took Reggie Bush last year and he looks to be the real deal. There have been some solid players they have gotten and they have done that by changing their philosophy. Had the Saints not drafted for "need" in 2003, we would not have gotten Sullivan. Instead, Terell Suggs or Marcus Trufant might have been the pick. Or they could have stayed put and taken Troy Polamalu and Nick Barnett or Jeff Faine (who they ironically have on the team now) or someone else. The Saints needed to, above all else, improve their secondary. They drafted two corners, traded for a third and signed a safety. I think that's looking to upgrade. The pick does not have to always come in the first round to be successful. See Marques Colson, Jahri Evans, Dawan Landry, Devin Hester and DeMeco Ryans, among others, as examples.

TacticaLion
05-15-2007, 07:13 PM
Actually, there was an article that ran in the Detroit Free Press right after the Lions had the rookie minicamp. It said that he looked good catching the ball but that he, even by his own admission, was out-of-shape and was winded on more than one occasion. He had to take some breaks. It was explained the same way that it is being explained for Meacham: when you travel around meeting with teams and have all these appearances--and Johnson had much more appearances than Meacham--then it is difficult for you to get the type of time you would like to work out.

Actually, I read that same article. Yes, CJ said he was winded... but because, as he said, the speed and pace of the NFL are much faster than at the college level. He said that they all have to get into better shape to peform at this level, but he didn't show up "out of shape".

Seasonticketholder
05-15-2007, 07:14 PM
Basically it comes down to the fact that Sean Payton is an offensive minded coach. In fact, he will do anything to acquire weapons for him to use. He would rather win in a shootout, which they will have to do a lot next year, than play balanced football.

Hmm...the defense ranked #11 last year behind the vaunted San Diego Chargers defense who finished #10...that was higher than the Falcons...who still have issues, particularly at DT...and LB is not as solid as it may seem...in fact, I would take the Saints LBs over the Falcons at this point. So, you are suggesting that we will have to win in shootouts...I find that to be funny given your team's current state.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-15-2007, 07:15 PM
I made up the fact that Harper called out plays for the defense when he was starting as rookie? Okay, man, whatever you say. And, if you noticed I also said that I lied.

There is a difference between communicating the play calls to the defense in the huddle, and individually telling the players where they needed to be pre-snap, as you claimed he did.


If you would watch some Saints games and maybe read some articles on the Saints, you would know what he's saying is true. It seems like you don't know much about the Saints and I have my doubts you are even a fan.

See above.

Shiver
05-15-2007, 07:15 PM
We did upgrade the Defense. No, they aren't probowlers but they are very good football players. And it's not like we didn't try to fill more holes in FA, you can't force someone to sign with your team.

They added a decent Cover 2 corner, and an old and average linebacker. The Saints defense will be the weakest among any of the other NFC South teams. The only way they win the division is by winning shootouts, which they may be able to do. It just isn't the strategy most NFL teams typically adhere to.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-15-2007, 07:17 PM
They added a decent Cover 2 corner, and an old and average linebacker. The Saints defense will be the weakest among any of the other NFC South teams. The only way they win the division is by winning shootouts, which they may be able to do. It just isn't the strategy most NFL teams typically adhere to.

I agree with this, and I'd like to stress the MAY in "they may be able to do."

Defense still wins championships.

Seasonticketholder
05-15-2007, 07:17 PM
Actually, I read that same article. Yes, CJ said he was winded... but because, as he said, the speed and pace of the NFL are much faster than at the college level. He said that they all have to get into better shape to peform at this level, but he didn't show up "out of shape".

Exactly..but that's the same thing what was said about Meacham...Payton said he had to get into better shape and then articles started popping up saying he was out-of-shape...in fact, Payton had said you can tell that he has not been able to work out lately given all the traveling to visit teams he has done...and someone asked how could he draw that conclusion...and Payton was like take a look at him...pointing to Meacham being a little winded...so, that's all I am saying...Payton said that Meacham has to get into better shape for this level...depending on how each person choose to read it, that can mean out-of-shape...obviously it does since this thread has lasted nearly 5 pages...although a lot of that is persons attacking who the Saints drafted.

Seasonticketholder
05-15-2007, 07:24 PM
They added a decent Cover 2 corner, and an old and average linebacker. The Saints defense will be the weakest among any of the other NFC South teams. The only way they win the division is by winning shootouts, which they may be able to do. It just isn't the strategy most NFL teams typically adhere to.

We will see.

Geo
05-15-2007, 07:25 PM
Eh, you're making it bigger than it really is, Shiver. Not everyone values a linebacker as first round value, which obviously hurts someone like Posluszny in BPA determination, and Olsen was graded more for his measurables than for what he was able to do in an anemic Miami offense. Meachem not only had the measurables as a 6-2/210/sub-4.4 receiver, but displayed what he could do on the field when he actually had a player worth a darn at quarterback and a pro-level offensive coordinator.

Drafting for need over BPA can make a team mediocre over time.

The Saints may have Devery Henderson right now, but the team will likely let him walk in free agency in a few years (I don't know the exact duration of his contract) which is when Meachem should flourish as a pro. If the team can't stretch the field enough to have no more than 7 defenders in the box, then Reggie Bush and Duece McAllister won't be as effective in the Saints' ball control offense (which helps the defense stay off the field).

Also, every team in the NFC South has an immediate deficiency in its secondary or a lack of quality of depth, or both really. And each of the Saints' division rivals have offenses that need to run the ball to have any success, so if the Saints continue to score points and work the clock then that does a better job of eliminating the run than their defense could hope to do.

SaintsMan
05-15-2007, 07:27 PM
They added a decent Cover 2 corner, and an old and average linebacker. The Saints defense will be the weakest among any of the other NFC South teams. The only way they win the division is by winning shootouts, which they may be able to do. It just isn't the strategy most NFL teams typically adhere to.

Every player isn't going to be a probowler. And just because you don't know who they are, doesn't mean the player isn't good. Jason David and Brian Simmons are two good players and should help this Defense. We also added S, Kevin Kaesviharn who should help with turnovers along with David.

TacticaLion
05-15-2007, 07:28 PM
Exactly..but that's the same thing what was said about Meacham...Payton said he had to get into better shape and then articles started popping up saying he was out-of-shape...in fact, Payton had said you can tell that he has not been able to work out lately given all the traveling to visit teams he has done...and someone asked how could he draw that conclusion...and Payton was like take a look at him...pointing to Meacham being a little winded...so, that's all I am saying...Payton said that Meacham has to get into better shape for this level...depending on how each person choose to read it, that can mean out-of-shape...obviously it does since this thread has lasted nearly 5 pages...although a lot of that is persons attacking who the Saints drafted.

I guess I see a difference.

Meacham reported out-of-shape... which CJ admitted that he'd have to work to get into better shape to adjust to the speed in the NFL. There's a big difference. Out-of-shape or wanting to get into better shape.

Anyway, CJ is anything but out-of-shape, and has only impressed. His name shouldn't be in this thread.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 07:29 PM
The Saints may have Devery Henderson right now, but the team will likely let him walk in free agency in a few years (I don't know the exact duration of his contract)

This is Henderson's last contract year with the team, I believe which just enforces the point made.

Geo
05-15-2007, 07:30 PM
I know Copper is an UFA after 07, I'm not sure about Henderson.

bearsfan_51
05-15-2007, 07:32 PM
We did upgrade the Defense. No, they aren't probowlers but they are very good football players.
Not really.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 07:32 PM
CONTRACT INFO: 8/6/2004: Signed a four-year contract. 2007: $510,000, 2008: Free Agent

Came from RotoWorld.

SaintsMan
05-15-2007, 07:33 PM
Devery Henderson has inconsistant hands. To me, he is a Donte Stallworth clone without the character issues. Amazing deep threat, I hope he improves on last season.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 07:34 PM
Not really.

I'm not big on KK or Simmons as others seem to be but to think that adding Jason David to our lackluster secondary isn't an improvement/upgrade is laughable.

Shiver
05-15-2007, 07:36 PM
Eh, you're making it bigger than it really is, Shiver. Not everyone values a linebacker as first round value, which obviously hurts someone like Posluszny in BPA determination, and Olsen was graded more for his measurables than for what he was able to do in an anemic Miami offense. Meachem not only had the measurables as a 6-2/210/sub-4.4 receiver, but displayed what he could do on the field when he actually had a player worth a darn at quarterback and a pro-level offensive coordinator.

Yes, Meachem was a great value and has physical talent. His lack of collegiate production before his Junior season is a bit worrisome, but I really like him regardless. I just think this move helps them out down the line, not in '07. Receivers are not immediately productive usually. Whereas Linebackers are.

Drafting for need over BPA can make a team mediocre over time. See the division rivals Carolina Panthers and Atlanta Falcons for example, consistently at the .500 mark in the last few years.

Carolina and Atlanta have drafted for B.P.A, as well. Their mediocrity has more to do with uneven QB play. Just like the Saints when they had Aaron Brooks, actually.

The Saints may have Devery Henderson right now, but the team will likely let him walk in free agency in a few years (I don't know the exact duration of his contract) which is when Meachem should flourish as a pro. If the team can't stretch the field enough to have no more than 7 defenders in the box, then Reggie Bush and Duece McAllister won't be as effective in the Saints' ball control offense (which helps the defense stay off the field).

As I said; he will help in a few years. I just don't think he makes them a better team right now.

Also, every team in the NFC South has an immediate deficiency in its secondary or a lack of quality of depth, or both really. And each of the Saints' division rivals have offenses that need to run the ball to have any success, so if the Saints continue to score points and work the clock then that does a better job of eliminating the run than their defense could hope to do.

It depends how quickly the draftees contribute for Carolina, Tampa Bay and Atlanta. All of them have added young pieces to their respective secondaries recently.

SaintsMan
05-15-2007, 07:36 PM
Not really.

Yes, if you compare Simmons to Urlacher or David to Vasher and Tillman, they aren't good at all. But that doesn't change the fact that they are good players, not everyone is blessed with the type of players the Bears have on Defense.