PDA

View Full Version : Afc West Thread


bored of education
05-12-2007, 12:06 AM
why not?


LT, LJ, Gates, Cutler, Champ, Asomungha(sp.) I still can't spell his name right.


It doesn't get much better than this

Aftermath
05-12-2007, 12:09 AM
Yes, it does not get any better than Tomlinson and Bailey.

Jimmy
05-12-2007, 05:37 AM
my favorite players in the afc west

cutler, bailey, dj willians, asomugha, michael huff, antonio cromartie,

NIN1984
05-12-2007, 06:16 AM
I think freakin’ Denver is gonna win the west

Jimmy
05-12-2007, 07:54 AM
I think freakin’ Denver is gonna win the west

i hope your right ;)

Jimmy
05-12-2007, 09:12 AM
Chargers
Worst case scenario 8-8
Best Case 14-2
Probable Record
12-

Broncos
Worst case scenario 6-10
Best Case 13-3
Probable Record
9-7

Chiefs
Worst case scenario 6-10
Best Case 10-6
Probable Record
8-8

Raiders
Worst case scenario 4-12
Best Case 12-4
Probable Record
8-8

Splat
05-12-2007, 10:18 AM
I think Denver will win it as well I'm not a fan of the coaching staff in SD at all I know the players play the games but that is a lot of turn over in one off season.

Iamcanadian
05-12-2007, 10:39 AM
This division will be wide open and 9 or 10 wins could take it all. San Diego paniced and fired Shoty and hired (UGH) Turner to lead the team. Look for San Diego to take a small step backwards this year to maybe 9 or 10 wins and then fall apart in year 2 of Turner. 9 or 10 might still get the job done for this season.

Denver has a lot of the pieces in place but also has a lot of holes with huge question marks. This team could come together quickly but IMO, are probably a year away from being a really solid contender. Will go as far as their defense will allow them. 9 or 10 wins.

Kansas City. Very hard team to figure out! It's a team in transition that needs time to rebuild. I see 6 wins in their coming season. Just too many question marks all around.

Oakland will get a lot of press about being vastly improved but the truth of the matter is that QB's who leave for the draft in their junior year are simply not ready for the NFL. I have no doubt that Russell will be great in about 2 or 3 years but not next season. I cannot see more than 4 wins for next year but the division had better look out because with another top 5 pick, this team could be on its way to be a serious Super Bowl threat in about 3 years when all that talent begins to mature. Hopefully, Kiffin works out and can stand up to the pressure of another bad season otherwise Davis will again be looking for a new HC within 2 seasons.


Basically, the AFC West is in for a poor season. Just too many question marks for anybody to take this division seriously.

SubNoize
05-12-2007, 11:36 AM
I see San Diego taking the division at 10-6 or 11-5, despite losing most their coaching staff they had solid guys step in and Norv may have a losing record as a HC but he's never had this much talent on the field either, this coming from a Raiders fan.
I'm not sold on Denver being a consensus playoff team. Al Wilson was the leader of the D, and I know Williams is moving to the middle, but outside of him the LB core looks mediocre. The D-Line is hit or miss as well, at the end of the season they fell apart and you can't rely on rookies to make an amazing turnaround here. The secondary looks solid up front but Lynch is aging and I honestly don't know who plays opposite of him. Champ and Bly are solid. The offense could improve as far as the run game, but i think Denver still lacks any depth behind Walker at WR. they need to run a lot of 2 TE sets with the addition of Graham. 9-7
Oakland can't get any worse than they were last season. They have a Great D that will be top 5 in the NFL. Offensive line is their biggest concern still, they've added some depth with Carlisle and Newberry, and Henderson could come around to provide good competition. The line has gone froma barbaric scheme to a ZBS and the offense is rumored to be a hybrid West Coast offense which is needed instead of those dreaded 7 step drops. QB is also a concern, McCown and Walter are two guys who've never had a good line, they show glimpses of being solid, but you'll never know until we see the line play. WR is a toss-up. Porter has been good, but will the year off hurt him? Curry is really the only reliable threat here. Can the running game gel with splitbacks? 7-9
The Chiefs are in trouble. They lost a lot on the offensive line and didn't add much, and it's still aging. They added Bowe to the WR corp that is thin and traded away Dante Hall who was obviously aging. Speaking of aging Kennison is no spring chicken either. Can Parker step it up? Does LJ feel welcome here anymore after the trading block rumor? Is he tired after all those carries? Law is solid but aging, and so is Surtain. Huard or Croyle? Can either handle a full season? Too many questions and this team is only getting older, llok for a tough season in KC. 5-11 or 6-10

Jimmy
05-12-2007, 12:04 PM
how is dj williams, ian gold anywhere close to mediocre linebacking corps, regardless of the 3rd guy? do your research

SubNoize
05-12-2007, 12:40 PM
ian gold is average at best, I gave credit to williams, but the LB core is mediocre at best, get over it and do some research of your own...

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-12-2007, 01:17 PM
Brandon Marshall will be the best #2 WR in the division. Walker will probably be the best #1, as well. Cutler 2nd best QB. Henry 3rd best RB. OL 2nd best. Scheffler will be 3rd best, but only because arguable the league's 2 best TEs are in the division, but Scheffler is VERY good, make no mistake. D-Line, 4th, they suck. LB corps will be worse than last year, but not bad. Corners will be better, since even with all the rooks, the pass rush should improve a bit. Safeties suck. I think we'll be in the top-2, I'd put likely 10-11 wins for us. We'll be better than last year(last year we were MUCH worse than the record suggested).

SubNoize
05-12-2007, 01:42 PM
I don't think Marshall will be anywhere close to being the best #2 in that division, Curry will probably take that honor. Walker is a possibility as the best #1, but honestly there isn't much competition, Porter being the closest thing if he performs like he can... Scheffler is solid, but also take into consideration that he will be splitting time and may not put up big stats, that's why Henry will proably be 3rd in rushing, but OAK combined total could be higher. D line is possibly 3rd as KCs will be bad missing Allen for 4 games. LBs will be 3-4 depending on KC. #1 corners for Den. Bad S for sure though. I think Denver may get a wild card at 9-7 maybe 10 wins if Cutler performs well, but will not win the division.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-12-2007, 01:54 PM
I don't think Marshall will be anywhere close to being the best #2 in that division, Curry will probably take that honor. Walker is a possibility as the best #1, but honestly there isn't much competition, Porter being the closest thing if he performs like he can... Scheffler is solid, but also take into consideration that he will be splitting time and may not put up big stats, that's why Henry will proably be 3rd in rushing, but OAK combined total could be higher. D line is possibly 3rd as KCs will be bad missing Allen for 4 games. LBs will be 3-4 depending on KC. #1 corners for Den. Bad S for sure though. I think Denver may get a wild card at 9-7 maybe 10 wins if Cutler performs well, but will not win the division.

Yeah, I think it's possible, but not likely we win the division. As for Marshall, he was surprisingly good last year, although nobody really hears of Denver players anymore anyway:P. So we'll have to see.

bored of education
05-12-2007, 03:20 PM
As a fan of THE Chiefs of Kansas City this is how is see the finals standings:

Denver 12-4
San Diego 10-6
Kansas City 9-7
Oakland 5-11

OROY: Buster Davis- 65 receptions, 880 yards, 7 TDS (my sorta comparison: Eddie Kennison?)
DROY: Tim Crowder- 37 tackles, 7 sacks, 2 def, FF, 10 TFL(my sorta comparison: John Abraham?)
Sleeper rookies: Brandon Thomas, Anthony Waters, Johhnie Lee Higgins



DPOY: Nnandi Asomugha(spelling SOMEONE SPELL THIS GUYS NAME FOR ME)- 55 tackles, 7 ints, 1 Td, 1 FF
OPOY: Larry Johnson, 345 carries, 1545 yrds, 16 TDS, 4.48 ypc, 35 rec, 420 yrds, 3 tds

Breakout players?
Offensively: Brandon Marshall, Chris Hannon, Brodie Croyle, Vincent Jackson
Defensive: Jarrad Page, Antonio Cromartie, Isiah Ekejiuba (I played prep footbal with this freak of nature)

SubNoize
05-12-2007, 04:45 PM
I thought I was being generous w/ my Raider prediction at 7-9, but 9-7 for the Chiefs??? I don't think the Chiefs will be able to yield the same record as last year without improving upon anything really. The only thing upgraded was the WR position and DT, but can the rookies impact immediately? Again can either Croyle or Huard really handle an NFL season, I'm not sold that they can. LJ took a lot of carries and how happy can he really be after being shopped around. The team is aging rapidly and need to start re-building and this may be one of those seasons. I see 7 wins tops here, 5 or 6 more likely.

On a side note... Does anybody else think that this feels like a gloomy year for the West??? I mean it has 2 potential playoff teams, but overall is seems really average this year...

Jimmy
05-12-2007, 06:43 PM
ian gold is average at best, I gave credit to williams, but the LB core is mediocre at best, get over it and do some research of your own...

ian gold is an above average nfl linebacker. end.

Komp
05-12-2007, 06:58 PM
San Diego 11-5
Denver 10-6
KC 6-10
Oakland 6-10

SubNoize
05-12-2007, 07:03 PM
How is he above average??? He's never posted over 100 tackles, and he's only started all 16 games in a season 2-3 times in his career. The only thing going for him is speed ( which he lost some of w/ that acl tear), doesn't exactly make you above average...

see for yourself- http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/playerStats?categoryId=69526

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-12-2007, 07:26 PM
You can't really base it off his stats when he's surrounded by Al Wilson, DJ Williams and John Lynch, not to mention 2 CBs who love to tackle. He's not gonna post huge numbers with that supporting cast.

Bengals1690
05-12-2007, 07:34 PM
As a fan of THE Chiefs of Kansas City this is how is see the finals standings:

Denver 12-4
San Diego 10-6
Kansas City 9-7
Oakland 5-11

OROY: Buster Davis- 65 receptions, 880 yards, 7 TDS (my sorta comparison: Eddie Kennison?)
DROY: Tim Crowder- 37 tackles, 7 sacks, 2 def, FF, 10 TFL(my sorta comparison: John Abraham?)
Sleeper rookies: Brandon Thomas, Anthony Waters, Johhnie Lee Higgins



DPOY: Nnandi Asomugha(spelling SOMEONE SPELL THIS GUYS NAME FOR ME)- 55 tackles, 7 ints, 1 Td, 1 FF
OPOY: Larry Johnson, 345 carries, 1545 yrds, 16 TDS, 4.48 ypc, 35 rec, 420 yrds, 3 tds

Breakout players?
Offensively: Brandon Marshall, Chris Hannon, Brodie Croyle, Vincent Jackson
Defensive: Jarrad Page, Antonio Cromartie, Isiah Ekejiuba (I played prep footbal with this freak of nature)

pretty good offensive stats for a linebacker

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-12-2007, 07:40 PM
pretty good offensive stats for a linebacker



The OTHER Buster Davis :p

Jimmy
05-12-2007, 08:22 PM
How is he above average??? He's never posted over 100 tackles, and he's only started all 16 games in a season 2-3 times in his career. The only thing going for him is speed ( which he lost some of w/ that acl tear), doesn't exactly make you above average...

see for yourself- http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/playerStats?categoryId=69526

stats aren't everything. especcially when you play with john lynch, al wilson, dj williams, champ bailey, and trevor pryce for a year or 2

SubNoize
05-12-2007, 08:28 PM
you can't make that an excuse, Williams didn't have huge #s either... given SLB usually don't, but you can't argue that he's only had a couple healthy seasons and just isn't in the top percentile of LB at his position. The Broncos are the 3rd best LB core in the Division behing SD and OAK.

Yeah Craig "Buster" Davis is gonna break out along w/ that "Brandon Thomas" the Broncos drafted... Can't wait!

Bengals1690
05-12-2007, 09:16 PM
The OTHER Buster Davis :p

whoops, forgot that was Craigs nickname lol

doingthisinsteadofwork
05-12-2007, 09:41 PM
Gold's overated.Hes average.DJ is a beast though.

T-RICH49
05-12-2007, 10:59 PM
1. Denver 11-5
2. San Diego 10-6
3. Kansas City 8-8
4. Oakland 5-11

elway777
05-12-2007, 11:01 PM
Gold is average at best i'll admit.

Komp
05-12-2007, 11:37 PM
Man I'm not looking forward to facing Bowe twice a year. I was hoping the Chiefs would take Meachem. Ah well....

661rep
05-13-2007, 01:29 AM
Man I'm not looking forward to facing Bowe twice a year. I was hoping the Chiefs would take Meachem. Ah well....

Personally I don't think it matters... I think Bowe and Meachem are on the same level. I have confidence in our secondary tho and thinking about Bowe to the Chiefs I just realised that both of J.Russ targets in college (Bowe and Davis) are playing in the AFC west.

doingthisinsteadofwork
05-13-2007, 01:41 AM
I could really care less about Bowe.We got Aso and Fabs.

SubNoize
05-13-2007, 12:12 PM
No Doubt, I'm not really worried about any receiever unless they get deep and Stu has to cover...Fab is on pace to have a breakout year this year, and Nam finally broke through last year, and with the lack of any true #1 in the west the secondary should be fine.

jth1331
05-13-2007, 05:42 PM
I love the ignorance to other teams here. Like stating there isn't a true #1 WR in the West. Javon Walker isn't a true #1? My lord...
The Broncos don't have as many question marks as people think. Their WR depth is fine, OL is fine, DB's fine. Really there are 4 main questions IMO:
1. How well will the injured players from last year come back?
2. How well will DJ Williams be able to hold the MLB position?
3. How much will Jay Cutler progress in his 2nd year?
4. Will the DL be improved?
Losing Lepsis, Ferguson, and Sam Brandon for the year last year and having other players go through various injuries, like Warren, Smith, Wilson and the RB's really hurt.
I think DJ will be able to make a good transition to the MLB role and will probably play better than Wilson did last year. If this team stays healthy this year, they'll probably win 10-12 games and make the playoffs. I don't think they'll do anything special, but the year after, I think they can really go far.

JK17
05-13-2007, 05:47 PM
The Broncos don't have as many question marks as people think. Their WR depth is fine, OL is fine, DB's fine. Really there are 4 main questions IMO:
1. How well will the injured players from last year come back?
2. How well will DJ Williams be able to hold the MLB position?
3. How much will Jay Cutler progress in his 2nd year?
4. Will the DL be improved?


Those are four pretty big questions....
injuries can decimate a team if players dont recover...the MLB is the heart of the defense and without that it makes the team very weak...Cutler may have looked good but if one of your teams biggest ?'s is in the QB position it could mean trouble (not all the time, as a Chargers fan I know Rivers had his ?s and the Chargers did fine) but still, its another thing they have to deal with...not to mention like you say its a ? as to if the d-line will improve...

jth1331
05-13-2007, 05:55 PM
Those are four pretty big questions....
injuries can decimate a team if players dont recover...the MLB is the heart of the defense and without that it makes the team very weak...Cutler may have looked good but if one of your teams biggest ?'s is in the QB position it could mean trouble (not all the time, as a Chargers fan I know Rivers had his ?s and the Chargers did fine) but still, its another thing they have to deal with...not to mention like you say its a ? as to if the d-line will improve...

I think 3 of those questions will be answered right away though. From what I've heard, the coaches are backing DJ up 100% and feel he can get the job done. Like I said, he couldn't do worse than what Al did last year. Anyone who watched him play could tell he was hurt nearly all the second half of the season and played pretty bad. Also, every injured player is scheduled to make a full recovery and be ready for training camp. Cutler, well, I fully predict him to continue his progression. He'll have his growing pains, like Rivers did as well, but for the most part I think he will do fine.
The DL's fate though will be determined by how well Crowder, Moss and Thomas perform. It can't be worse than last year, so we'll see.
Like I said, I think this team has enough to win 10-12 games depending on situations and make the playoffs, but not enough to go far. Maybe win a game, but nothing spectacular. And to be honest, I think this team is better than the 2005 squad that went 13-3 and to the AFC Championship game. We'll see though how things play out though.

JK17
05-13-2007, 06:02 PM
I think 3 of those questions will be answered right away though. From what I've heard, the coaches are backing DJ up 100% and feel he can get the job done. Like I said, he couldn't do worse than what Al did last year. Anyone who watched him play could tell he was hurt nearly all the second half of the season and played pretty bad. Also, every injured player is scheduled to make a full recovery and be ready for training camp. Cutler, well, I fully predict him to continue his progression. He'll have his growing pains, like Rivers did as well, but for the most part I think he will do fine.

Eh....

I would hardly say they are answered already...coaches backing a player at a position is hardly an answered question...what do you expect them to say, DJ can't do it, we're in trouble? Plus I know a lot of Denver fans who wouldn't agree that losing Wilson is no big deal there...

Injuries aren't as big of a question as long as the players are on pace to make a full recovery, but even if they are on pace, its stilla quesiton if they can play after the injury...probably the more important question is not will they recover but how will the recovery effect them?

And as for Cutler that's personal opinion and speculation...not going to really get into a debate over it because I tend to think he'll be fine too, but opinion isn't really proof either..



I didn't quote the rest of ur post, but I agree with it. Despite the questions I think there are I don't think 10-12 wins is out of the question at all, I see them with a 10-6 record at the end of the year. better then the team a couple years ago? Idk, ur probably in a better position to comment on that then me, i dont agree with that though.

jth1331
05-13-2007, 06:05 PM
Eh....

I would hardly say they are answered already...coaches backing a player at a position is hardly an answered question...what do you expect them to say, DJ can't do it, we're in trouble? Plus I know a lot of Denver fans who wouldn't agree that losing Wilson is no big deal there...

Injuries aren't as big of a question as long as the players are on pace to make a full recovery, but even if they are on pace, its stilla quesiton if they can play after the injury...probably the more important question is not will they recover but how will the recovery effect them?

And as for Cutler that's personal opinion and speculation...not going to really get into a debate over it because I tend to think he'll be fine too, but opinion isn't really proof either..



I didn't quote the rest of ur post, but I agree with it. Despite the questions I think there are I don't think 10-12 wins is out of the question at all, I see them with a 10-6 record at the end of the year. better then the team a couple years ago? Idk, ur probably in a better position to comment on that then me, i dont agree with that though.

I meant more along the lines that 3 questions will be answered early in the season, not now. It will be easy to see whether or not DJ can get the hang of the MLB in games, the team recovers from injuries and Cutler progresses. If this doesn't happen early, then probably the team will go from 8-8 to 10-6.
Well, consider specific positions, and the Broncos now have better talen than they did there than in 2005. The offense is immensly better now, while the only drawback really is not having a healthy Al Wilson on defense.

Komp
05-13-2007, 06:09 PM
Personally I don't think it matters... I think Bowe and Meachem are on the same level. I have confidence in our secondary tho and thinking about Bowe to the Chiefs I just realised that both of J.Russ targets in college (Bowe and Davis) are playing in the AFC west.

The thing with Bowe is that he is so physical compared to Meachem. Fabian Washington totally negates Meachem's speed as he is faster, but a tough, physical WR like Bowe could give him problems. Nnamdi can handle pretty much anyone, so I'm not worried about him.

And Javon Walker is absolutely a bonafide #1 WR in this league. And for what the AFC West lacks in WRs, it makes up for in RB's and TE's.

JK17
05-13-2007, 06:24 PM
I meant more along the lines that 3 questions will be answered early in the season, not now. It will be easy to see whether or not DJ can get the hang of the MLB in games, the team recovers from injuries and Cutler progresses. If this doesn't happen early, then probably the team will go from 8-8 to 10-6.
Well, consider specific positions, and the Broncos now have better talen than they did there than in 2005. The offense is immensly better now, while the only drawback really is not having a healthy Al Wilson on defense.

Oh wow, im stupid....i guess i missed the part where you said "will be answered right away" and took that as are already answered...don't know why i got that out of it...

SubNoize
05-14-2007, 11:08 AM
Javon Walker is only servicable as a #1 and could be upgraded, therefore I don't consider him a true #1, he'd play second fiddle on soo many teams, he just happens to play with an aging Rod Smith, a lifetime slot Stokely and an unproven Marshall defaulting him as a #1. Why is it that Bronco fans have been unable to take critizism on their players, if you're such a godly team then why can't theses guys win in the playoffs or even make it? Open your eyes and realize you're a mid level team and have some areas that could be vastly improved i.e WR,LB,S.

JK17
05-14-2007, 11:46 AM
Javon Walker is only servicable as a #1 and could be upgraded, therefore I don't consider him a true #1, he'd play second fiddle on soo many teams, he just happens to play with an aging Rod Smith, a lifetime slot Stokely and an unproven Marshall defaulting him as a #1. Why is it that Bronco fans have been unable to take critizism on their players, if you're such a godly team then why can't theses guys win in the playoffs or even make it? Open your eyes and realize you're a mid level team and have some areas that could be vastly improved i.e WR,LB,S.

I'd consider Javon Walker a number one...I Don't think I'm the only one either he's one of the best guys in the league, the only ?s around him really were how his injury would effect him.

jth1331
05-14-2007, 11:46 AM
Javon Walker is only servicable as a #1 and could be upgraded, therefore I don't consider him a true #1, he'd play second fiddle on soo many teams, he just happens to play with an aging Rod Smith, a lifetime slot Stokely and an unproven Marshall defaulting him as a #1. Why is it that Bronco fans have been unable to take critizism on their players, if you're such a godly team then why can't theses guys win in the playoffs or even make it? Open your eyes and realize you're a mid level team and have some areas that could be vastly improved i.e WR,LB,S.

Because you are ignorant if you think Walker would be a #2 WR on "so many other teams." The guy is a legit #1 WR, you are like the only person I've heard say he isn't. Whatever though.
I will say the Broncos could use a #3 WR, but I believe Walker and Marshall will form a good 1-2 punch at WR. LB needs upgraded, but is decent enough IMO. Safeties do need upgraded because Lynch and Ferguson are old, but they are adequate. Sam brandon can probably replace one of them and do fine.
We'll just take another sweep of the Raiders this next year, get to the playoffs and see what we can do. I'm not expecting a lot this year, as a lot of players were added and guys need to progress some more.

SubNoize
05-14-2007, 12:32 PM
You should sweep the Raiders, they're re-building, I'm able to grip reality and I know my team has a lot to prove. I'm sure I'm not the only person to ever say Walker isn't a legit #1, I actually know I'm not as I've heard this out of other NFL players mouths, as in more than one. I'm not majorly connected into the game but I know a few respectable starters in the NFL that share my sentiments, and yes 2 of them are WR that are leaps and bounds better than Walker. As for you implying that you are a sure fire lock to playoffs, get real with yourself, you're an outside chance and will not win the division. SD has the draw on all the west teams until proven otherwise. Even if you go, this is where your team has struggled since Elway left and Cutler has as many question marks as your LB core and D-Line. Sam Brandon, lol , by the way...Learn to take some criticism, this isn't NFL live we don't have Den. bias here...

jth1331
05-14-2007, 12:46 PM
You should sweep the Raiders, they're re-building, I'm able to grip reality and I know my team has a lot to prove. I'm sure I'm not the only person to ever say Walker isn't a legit #1, I actually know I'm not as I've heard this out of other NFL players mouths, as in more than one. I'm not majorly connected into the game but I know a few respectable starters in the NFL that share my sentiments, and yes 2 of them are WR that are leaps and bounds better than Walker. As for you implying that you are a sure fire lock to playoffs, get real with yourself, you're an outside chance and will not win the division. SD has the draw on all the west teams until proven otherwise. Even if you go, this is where your team has struggled since Elway left and Cutler has as many question marks as your LB core and D-Line. Sam Brandon, lol , by the way...Learn to take some criticism, this isn't NFL live we don't have Den. bias here...

I can take it, its just that you seem to have a severe anti-Broncos bias because if I just read what you have to say, it seems like the Broncos are a horrible team that will be lucky to win 8 games. Also, again, you are the first person to say that Walker isn't a legit #1. There are other WR's who are better but Walker is very good. I bet he would be a #1 on a lot of teams.
I do think the Broncos will win between 9-12 games this year, most likely 9-10. I think that will be good enough to get in the playoffs. And like I said, I do not expect them to go far. The rookies on the DL need to get some experience, as well as DJ playing the middle. Cutler needs another year as well, I don't think he has as many question marks as you say he does. He'll have some growing pains, but for the most part I think he'll do pretty well.
Lastly, Sam Brandon, I guess you don't know who he is. He is a solid safety who was in a sense the nickle corner at times for the Broncos last year and the year before who covered for the most part TE's. He is very solid, and the Broncos took a huge hit on defense when he got hurt last year.

SubNoize
05-14-2007, 12:54 PM
I guess you didn't read off the first page where I said Den. will will 9 games and take a wild card... I'm not saying you're horrible I just think you're overrated by some of your super homer fans... Den. has a lot of room for improvement, but it seems some of the fan base sees 12-14 wins and I think that is waaay off base with a soph. QB, a LB core that's getting shuffled, an average S core, A question mark D-line and WRs that may perform big or just hinder off wether Marshall can even be the #2. Obviously I'm not a Bronco fan but I get annoyed by how it seems this team gets played up big every year and always falls hard on it's ass in Dec. or Jan.

nobodyinparticular
05-14-2007, 01:10 PM
Denver's LB crew looks like it will be Gold-Williams-Holdman from defensive right to left. Gold is ok, but he's not a world beater by any means. And Warrick Holdman as a starting LB? That's not a good thing.

portermvp84
05-14-2007, 01:58 PM
I don't see the Raiders finishing 5-11. I see them doing a little better 6-10 7-9 range.

jth1331
05-14-2007, 02:44 PM
I guess you didn't read off the first page where I said Den. will will 9 games and take a wild card... I'm not saying you're horrible I just think you're overrated by some of your super homer fans... Den. has a lot of room for improvement, but it seems some of the fan base sees 12-14 wins and I think that is waaay off base with a soph. QB, a LB core that's getting shuffled, an average S core, A question mark D-line and WRs that may perform big or just hinder off wether Marshall can even be the #2. Obviously I'm not a Bronco fan but I get annoyed by how it seems this team gets played up big every year and always falls hard on it's ass in Dec. or Jan.

Every team has the homer goggle fans. I don't see any more than 12 wins, and even getting 11-12 wins may be a stretch.
Even in some talks people(media) are ranking the Broncos in the top 5 in the NFL and that boggles my mind personally.

SubNoize
05-15-2007, 12:30 PM
let's rank the top unit of each category by team...

QB-1.I'm going to say SD here based on Philip Rivers performance last year and having Volek and Whitehurst.
2. DEN- Cutler is promising and Ramsey is solid coming in...
3.KC- Huard was good coming off the bench and Croyle has promise.
4.OAK- McCown has to prove he can handle a full season again, Walter looked decent when protected but has butter fingers, Rusell warms the bench.

RB-1.SD- LT and Neal don't need to say more..
2.KC-LJ is a beast
3. OAK- Give the edge to the Jordan/Rhodes duo because both when clicking are solid performer running and catching the ball.
4.DEN- Henry is a solid starter, but I'm not sold on Mike Bell...

WR-1.OAK- Despite the loss of Moss this group still has potential w/ Porter, Curry, Williams, Gabriel, Higgins and Morant.
2.DEN- Walker, Marshall, Smith and Stokley could be solid.
3.SD- Davis could shine, Jackson, Floyd, Parker.
4.KC-Bowe, Kennison, Parker, Hannon, Gardner- solid potential...

TE-1.SD-Gates and Manumaleuna were great last year.
2.DEN- Graham and Schefler could do some damage.
3.KC- Gonzalez is a still pro-bowler, Dunn blocks and Allan has potential.
4.OAK- Miller could be a star, but's never touched the field, Stewart is a solid bloaker and you can't pencil in anybody else,wait and see who wins out.

OL-1.SD- Hardwick, McNeil, Dielman anchor solid line.
2. DEN- Doesn't even matter who they field, they will cut people down and get Henry to 1,000 plus.
3.OAK- Gutsy call, but w/ the change of the scheme and shuffling Gallery and Sims and adding Carlisle and Newberry who are both ZBS experienced this line could surprise.
4.KC-Aging and replacing Pro-Bowlers with what's left over. Waters and Wiegmann will need to step it up as leaders for some of the younger guys. Macintosh is one the only other long tnured vets.

DL- 1.SD- Castillo, Williams and Cesaire/Olshanky are Money...
2.OAK. Burgess and Sapp posted Double digit sacks, Terdell Sands is an up and coming run stuffer and Moses/ Huntley are young promosing talent as well.
3.DEN- I don't like to rely on players that have never set foot on the field but Moss, Crowder and Thomas are huge improvements and inject youth into the former Brown burnouts. This unit has potential to be the best in the division if they gel.
4.KC- Allen and Hali are solid, Mcbride will proabably rotate in with them. Tyler will start as the NT right away, and newly acquired Boone will probably play UT.

LB- 1. SD- Merriman, Phillips, Cooper Wilhelm and Now Siler and Waters to add to depth.
2. OAK- Kirk Morrison has been Pro-Bowl worthy and Thomas Howard had an awesome rookie Year. The opposite side will go to either Williams or Thomas but as a tandem last year they both performed well.
3. KC- Edwards is older but still can play solid, add him on to Johnson and the newly acquired Harris and this group looks better with Bell rotating in.
4. DEN- Williams is the only superstar here and he'll be going to the middle to replace unit leader Al Wilson. Gold will play the weakside which suits his speed, but he's average. Holdman will probably round out this group and it looks unimpressive so far.

DB- 1.OAK- This is for the unit as a whole and OAK fields the best 4 players here with Asomugha and Washington at the corners and Huff and Stu. Routt and Bowie add decent depth at CB and Starks may or may not make the team. Bing and Frampton add good hitting S depth.
2. DEN- Despite a weaker S core, Champ and Bly is scary on the field at the same time. Lynch is still servicable as a starter and Brandon supposedly can step in and perform. Foxworth will likely be the nickelback and he played well when asked last year.
3. KC- Law despite aging has played younger. Jarred Page is a young up and comer who plays opposite of another youngnster in Pollard. This group should be solid.
4. SD-this is probably the rare weak spot on this team. Jammer and Florence are a servicable tandem with Cromartie coming in. Jue and and Hart are decent with the youngster Weddle ready to step in and get some playing time away from McCree.

JK17
05-15-2007, 01:01 PM
DB- 1.OAK- This is for the unit as a whole and OAK fields the best 4 players here with Asomugha and Washington at the corners and Huff and Stu. Routt and Bowie add decent depth at CB and Starks may or may not make the team. Bing and Frampton add good hitting S depth.
2. DEN- Despite a weaker S core, Champ and Bly is scary on the field at the same time. Lynch is still servicable as a starter and Brandon supposedly can step in and perform. Foxworth will likely be the nickelback and he played well when asked last year.
3. KC- Law despite aging has played younger. Jarred Page is a young up and comer who plays opposite of another youngnster in Pollard. This group should be solid.
4. SD-this is probably the rare weak spot on this team. Jammer and Florence are a servicable tandem with Cromartie coming in. Jue and and Hart are decent with the youngster Weddle ready to step in and get some playing time away from McCree.

just nit-picking here....McCree is our best safety, and the second best player in the secondary. He had one bad play in the playoffs, that personaly I'm not even mad at him for trying to make. Weddle is going to play opposite him, not in place of him.

jth1331
05-15-2007, 04:57 PM
let's rank the top unit of each category by team...

QB-1.I'm going to say SD here based on Philip Rivers performance last year and having Volek and Whitehurst.
2. DEN- Cutler is promising and Ramsey is solid coming in...
3.KC- Huard was good coming off the bench and Croyle has promise.
4.OAK- McCown has to prove he can handle a full season again, Walter looked decent when protected but has butter fingers, Rusell warms the bench.


Agree for the most part here, pretty much anyone will agree with this right now.


RB-1.SD- LT and Neal don't need to say more..
2.KC-LJ is a beast
3. OAK- Give the edge to the Jordan/Rhodes duo because both when clicking are solid performer running and catching the ball.
4.DEN- Henry is a solid starter, but I'm not sold on Mike Bell...


Wow, Oakland ahead of Denver? Henry and Bell will prove to be better than Jordan and Rhodes.


WR-1.OAK- Despite the loss of Moss this group still has potential w/ Porter, Curry, Williams, Gabriel, Higgins and Morant.
2.DEN- Walker, Marshall, Smith and Stokley could be solid.
3.SD- Davis could shine, Jackson, Floyd, Parker.
4.KC-Bowe, Kennison, Parker, Hannon, Gardner- solid potential...


Wow, you rate a group of WR's where none of them have had a 1,000 receiving yards year, have injury problems and some guys who couldn't cut it on other teams ahead of Denver's? Theres more question marks for Oakland than Denver here.


TE-1.SD-Gates and Manumaleuna were great last year.
2.DEN- Graham and Schefler could do some damage.
3.KC- Gonzalez is a still pro-bowler, Dunn blocks and Allan has potential.
4.OAK- Miller could be a star, but's never touched the field, Stewart is a solid bloaker and you can't pencil in anybody else,wait and see who wins out.


Honestly, I think you could maybe put KC at #2, and probably should at this point since Gonzalez is still a big time player and Dunn is a great blocker. Scheffler is still unproven.


OL-1.SD- Hardwick, McNeil, Dielman anchor solid line.
2. DEN- Doesn't even matter who they field, they will cut people down and get Henry to 1,000 plus.
3.OAK- Gutsy call, but w/ the change of the scheme and shuffling Gallery and Sims and adding Carlisle and Newberry who are both ZBS experienced this line could surprise.
4.KC-Aging and replacing Pro-Bowlers with what's left over. Waters and Wiegmann will need to step it up as leaders for some of the younger guys. Macintosh is one the only other long tnured vets.


haha, KC's line is still light years ahead of Oakland. SD 1 and Denver #2 are right on. Gotta love the jab against Denver's line though


DL- 1.SD- Castillo, Williams and Cesaire/Olshanky are Money...
2.OAK. Burgess and Sapp posted Double digit sacks, Terdell Sands is an up and coming run stuffer and Moses/ Huntley are young promosing talent as well.
3.DEN- I don't like to rely on players that have never set foot on the field but Moss, Crowder and Thomas are huge improvements and inject youth into the former Brown burnouts. This unit has potential to be the best in the division if they gel.
4.KC- Allen and Hali are solid, Mcbride will proabably rotate in with them. Tyler will start as the NT right away, and newly acquired Boone will probably play UT.


If Denver's #3 then that means they improved so I'd be happy. It'll be a fight between KC and Denver for last place IMO. SD and Oak #1-2 is right though.


LB- 1. SD- Merriman, Phillips, Cooper Wilhelm and Now Siler and Waters to add to depth.
2. OAK- Kirk Morrison has been Pro-Bowl worthy and Thomas Howard had an awesome rookie Year. The opposite side will go to either Williams or Thomas but as a tandem last year they both performed well.
3. KC- Edwards is older but still can play solid, add him on to Johnson and the newly acquired Harris and this group looks better with Bell rotating in.
4. DEN- Williams is the only superstar here and he'll be going to the middle to replace unit leader Al Wilson. Gold will play the weakside which suits his speed, but he's average. Holdman will probably round out this group and it looks unimpressive so far.


Outside of SD, this is a weak group of LB corps IMO. I think you are underrating the LB's of Denver though.


DB- 1.OAK- This is for the unit as a whole and OAK fields the best 4 players here with Asomugha and Washington at the corners and Huff and Stu. Routt and Bowie add decent depth at CB and Starks may or may not make the team. Bing and Frampton add good hitting S depth.
2. DEN- Despite a weaker S core, Champ and Bly is scary on the field at the same time. Lynch is still servicable as a starter and Brandon supposedly can step in and perform. Foxworth will likely be the nickelback and he played well when asked last year.
3. KC- Law despite aging has played younger. Jarred Page is a young up and comer who plays opposite of another youngnster in Pollard. This group should be solid.
4. SD-this is probably the rare weak spot on this team. Jammer and Florence are a servicable tandem with Cromartie coming in. Jue and and Hart are decent with the youngster Weddle ready to step in and get some playing time away from McCree.

Awesome, way to overrate the Raiders again. Champ & Bly > Asomugha and Washington. Huff and Stu = Lynch & Ferguson/Brandon. Denver has the edge in this category. Broncos will be starting 3 Pro Bowlers, how many will the Raiders be fielding?

And god, I must be so bored if I'm responding to this...

sdpads24
05-15-2007, 05:06 PM
Interesting how the chargers are first in nearly all of those categories. It seems to always change by the end of the year though.

ripdw27
05-15-2007, 05:09 PM
in response to SubNoize - no way does denver have the worst rb group... were you sold on reuben droughns the year the team had over 2000 rush yds... probably not.. bell is not even a starter he will just be a backup and provide henry with breaks.. give us 3rd by a longshot...as for seconday.. just wow... Denver has the best in the league.. Champ Bailey and Dre Bly are enough to be #1, lynch is old but age is only a number so he can still perform fine.. i can tell you like the raiders over the broncos

Shiver
05-15-2007, 05:27 PM
as for seconday.. just wow... Denver has the best in the league.. Champ Bailey and Dre Bly are enough to be #1, lynch is old but age is only a number so he can still perform fine.. i can tell you like the raiders over the broncos


It isn't just Raiders fans. I too would put Oakland ahead of Denver.

San Diego Chicken
05-15-2007, 05:49 PM
Interesting how the chargers are first in nearly all of those categories. It seems to always change by the end of the year though.

The Chargers have the best team, which is why they won the AFC West by five games last year. If they can't repeat (no excuse of a difficult schedule) it will be on the coaching staff, and AJ.

nobodyinparticular
05-15-2007, 05:53 PM
Awesome, way to overrate the Raiders again. Champ & Bly > Asomugha and Washington. Huff and Stu = Lynch & Ferguson/Brandon. Denver has the edge in this category. Broncos will be starting 3 Pro Bowlers, how many will the Raiders be fielding?

And god, I must be so bored if I'm responding to this...

Bull. Lynch is overrated as hell and Ferguson/Brandon are average. I'd take Washington over Bly anyday and twice on Sundays. Bly has been overrated for the last 3 years and this year will prove no different.

Pro Bowls? Quick, name the last time that Bly made the Pro Bowl. Your 1st round bust Deltha O'Neal has had a more recent Pro Bowl appearance. Tory James had a Pro Bowl appearance the same year Bly made it last. Tory James Or better yet, name the last year that John Lynch actually deserved his Pro Bowl selection.

Nnamdi Asomugha is a top 3 CB in the league, not far behind Bailey. And Fabian Washington is better than Dre Bly. Lynch is no better than either Stuart Schweigert or Michael Huff.

But hey, if it makes you sleep better at night, go ahead and believe that your secondary will be better, more power to ya. You'll lose plenty of sleep thinking about Bly, Lynch and Ferguson getting burned left and right once the season comes around.

jth1331
05-15-2007, 05:58 PM
Bull. Lynch is overrated as hell and Ferguson/Brandon are average. I'd take Washington over Bly anyday and twice on Sundays. Bly has been overrated for the last 3 years and this year will prove no different.

Pro Bowls? Quick, name the last time that Bly made the Pro Bowl. Your 1st round bust Deltha O'Neal has had a more recent Pro Bowl appearance. Tory James had a Pro Bowl appearance the same year Bly made it last. Tory James Or better yet, name the last year that John Lynch actually deserved his Pro Bowl selection.

Nnamdi Asomugha is a top 3 CB in the league, not far behind Bailey. And Fabian Washington is better than Dre Bly. Lynch is no better than either Stuart Schweigert or Michael Huff.

But hey, if it makes you sleep better at night, go ahead and believe that your secondary will be better, more power to ya. You'll lose plenty of sleep thinking about Bly, Lynch and Ferguson getting burned left and right once the season comes around.

Okay, Mr. Raider fan. Go ahead and think your team has the better secondary. For this upcoming season, I'll take Denver over Oakland.
And also, saying Lynch isn't better than Schweigert is laughable.

NIN1984
05-15-2007, 06:21 PM
Raiders secondary is better than the Broncos I’ll think it and say it. Champ may be the best CB in the NFL but he can’t do everything, If you guys really want to believe Dre Bly and John Lynch are still pro bowl type players go right ahead.

SubNoize
05-15-2007, 06:32 PM
NJX... umm Raiders RB ranked 3rd there buddy... Yes I put the tandem of Rhodes/Jordan over Henry. Henry has had what 2 okay years, one of them being last year, allowing him to be grossly overpaid for not proving anything. Mike Bell is is nothing special, I played him in highschool, watched him in college and saw him cough it up a couple times in Denver to be replaced by Tatum Bell. i'm not underating the Den. LB core either, they're not that good! And by the way that receiver that's not hit 1,000 yards was you know the one who in the snow game in Den. torched you're "jesus" Champ for 3 TDs and over 100 yards. KCs line is a not better than Oakland's based on personnel, I'm not going by last season, Oak has a new line coach and system, where Grove and Gallery have played very wel in. As for the secondary, OAK had the #1 pass defense in the NFL, no defensive scheme changes, they will stay that way. Bly will improve Denver, but Huff is better than Brandon and Stu and Lynch are equal at this point. and more q's for Oak than Den. at WR??? okay, Smith-old and injured, Stokley-injured, Marshall-unproven 4th WR moving up, Walker-Overated would be #2 on a good 10 teams in the league. Raider Bias??? I have Denver rated over OAK in 4 catgories, again you donks fans think your team is godly... jesus christ.

nobodyinparticular
05-15-2007, 07:29 PM
further, anyone who thinks denver's secondary is better is absolutely kidding themselves. john lynch abjectly sucks right now at anything other than run support and no matter who plays strong safety (ferguson, brandon, foxworth or cox), they'll be average at best.

otoh, NIP, arguing the pro bowl was ridiculous, moreso because in the same post where you try to call out bly for NOT having made it, you talk about lynch needing to deserve it. that's not and has never been how the pro bowl works and you know better than to quote pro bowls except to slap someone else with the 'how worthless they are' comment.

*sigh* I know, I was arguing against myself. The main point that I was trying to make was that JTH was saying the Broncos have 3 Pro Bowl players in their secondary when Bly hasn't made it since 2004.

Then I argued that Lynch hasn't deserved it in a long time. Somewhat arguing against myself it would seem, eh? I didn't really feel like bringing up the whole "Pro Bowls are worthless because....blah blah" just because I didn't want to put that effort in. I'm finding myself increasingly lazy. Bad NIP...

nobodyinparticular
05-15-2007, 07:53 PM
I will say that to argue that Walker is not a quality WR is ridiculous. He is quite good and I expect him to get better this season--sadly.

As for Sheffler, I'm not sure why everyone is sipping the koolaid on this guy. I know that Shanahan was really raving about the guy last preseason, but he is far from anything spectacular. I guess by default the Broncos are ahead of Oakland (which is fine) for the mere fact that the Raiders' TEs were utter crap for the exception of John Madsen who was not only because he didn't get that playing time. (for what it's worth, there is very little difference between Madsen and Sheffler's production last year--just saying)

On another note, had Daniel Graham not played for the golden team his first 5 years in the league, he would have been labeled a bust long ago. A big bust. He's barely scraped over the 400 yard mark once in his 5-year tenure--and that just doesn't cut it for a TE picked #21 overall. (and ahead of guys like Ed Reed and Clinton Portis) I know if Zach Miller put up that same production he would be considered a bust by myself and everyone else, and he was taken at #38.

Again though, because Miller has yet to step on the field and the lack of anything after him, I have to say the Raiders are #4 in this area until otherwise proven.

I guess what I'm saying is that far too much stock is put into "potential" when considering these ratings so far. There is absolutely no way that Scheffler and Graham rank over Tony Gonzalez. Are you kidding me?

nobodyinparticular
05-15-2007, 07:56 PM
meh, no worries. your brethren had me riled up =P

regardless, i just want to repeat it for emphasis: the broncos secondary is not some incredible top 3 in the nfl unit. if we were looking at corners and safeties seperatly, then sure. together? not a chance in heck.

Just wondering, what's your opinion on Bly?

I feel like I'm hurting my credibility by having to qualify my opinion on him, but in all honesty I haven't felt he was up in the top 10 CBs for quite some time. Since he's been in Detroit I guess.

nobodyinparticular
05-15-2007, 08:00 PM
he's likely not much worse than spragan, who started at the position for a couple of years while gold was in tampa.

That is probably true. But as already stated, the other starting LB on the field (Gold now) isn't all that great at this point.

nobodyinparticular
05-15-2007, 08:01 PM
And no, all these posts in a row have nothing to do with being just a few hundred posts ahead of you, njx. :P

nobodyinparticular
05-15-2007, 08:12 PM
I think freakin’ Denver is gonna win the west

why not?


LT, LJ, Gates, Cutler, Champ, Asomungha(sp.) I still can't spell his name right.


It doesn't get much better than this

Yes, it does not get any better than Tomlinson and Bailey.

It's kind of a bummer to go from the NFC East thread to this thread. There is a real lack of quality, thought-out posts. I'm not bashing the stances being taken, but the lack of meaty posts like found in the NFC East thread or the the NFC South thread.

To answer Bored of Education's question, it is "Nnamdi Asomugha".

Stash
05-15-2007, 11:53 PM
let's rank the top unit of each category by team...

RB-1.SD- LT and Neal don't need to say more..
2.KC-LJ is a beast
3. OAK- Give the edge to the Jordan/Rhodes duo because both when clicking are solid performer running and catching the ball.
4.DEN- Henry is a solid starter, but I'm not sold on Mike Bell...

WR-1.OAK- Despite the loss of Moss this group still has potential w/ Porter, Curry, Williams, Gabriel, Higgins and Morant.
2.DEN- Walker, Marshall, Smith and Stokley could be solid.
3.SD- Davis could shine, Jackson, Floyd, Parker.
4.KC-Bowe, Kennison, Parker, Hannon, Gardner- solid potential...

OL-1.SD- Hardwick, McNeil, Dielman anchor solid line.
2. DEN- Doesn't even matter who they field, they will cut people down and get Henry to 1,000 plus.
3.OAK- Gutsy call, but w/ the change of the scheme and shuffling Gallery and Sims and adding Carlisle and Newberry who are both ZBS experienced this line could surprise.
4.KC-Aging and replacing Pro-Bowlers with what's left over. Waters and Wiegmann will need to step it up as leaders for some of the younger guys. Macintosh is one the only other long tnured vets.


Ranking Oakland ahead of Denver in the run game is kinda silly. Oaklands offense was horrible last year, so thinking they will make that kind of leap is a pipe dream. Denver is a lock to have a 1,000 yds rushing every year and they upgraded that with Henry who had a good year with the Titans. Jordan and Rhodes are both servicable backs and together they can be solid, but unfortunately in this division a running game that is average means your 4th best.

And I think Denver would also have to be a lock for the WR category seeing as how they have the only #1 WR in the division. The Raiders are definitely #2 there seeing as how they have a trio of guys that are really good #2's and KC and SD don't really have much at WR.

I do agree with your OL rankings. I don't think the Raiders line will be great or anything, but the additions of coaches and players that they made should make the line mediocre which would be a huge improvement. KC lost their starting LT and I believe they also lost their future HOF G Shields, so I expect them to struggle big time this year.

bored of education
05-15-2007, 11:58 PM
Thanks Nip

bored of education
05-15-2007, 11:59 PM
SubNoize Henry and Bell together are better than Rhodes and Jordan at this moment. javon walkeris the best WR in the division and porter and whoever havent dont anything.

And Qb wise I dunno toss up

Xonraider
05-16-2007, 07:07 AM
SubNoize Henry and Bell together are better than Rhodes and Jordan at this moment. javon walkeris the best WR in the division and porter and whoever havent dont anything.

And Qb wise I dunno toss up

Well, Porter did have 998 yards and 9 touchdowns while being #1 for about 8 games.

Curry put up solid numbers in 2004 and last year.

You are just not knowledgeful of the Raiders wideouts.

NIN1984
05-16-2007, 07:56 AM
I think Raiders WRs will be fine, Porter can play at a high level when he wants and if Ronald Curry would have just started the season as the #2 WR he would have gotten 1,000 yards on that awful offense. Art Shell had no clue how to use him.

However, I do agree Javon Walker is still the best WR in the west. Actually Denver has the best WR unit in the west.

bored of education
05-16-2007, 11:00 AM
Damon Huard MVP!

portermvp84
05-16-2007, 11:46 AM
SubNoize Henry and Bell together are better than Rhodes and Jordan at this moment. javon walkeris the best WR in the division and porter and whoever havent dont anything.

And Qb wise I dunno toss up

I agree with you on that Mike Bell and Travis Henry are better than Jordan and Rhodes at the moment. Considering Henry and Bell have a better line to run behind, and Jordan and Rhodes don't. I'd pry give the better QB to Jay Cutler.

SubNoize
05-16-2007, 11:56 AM
Why did everyone misinterpret what the categories were??? It's a personnel thing, not which unit will finish better... Obviously Denver will put more yardage up in the run game b/c of their line... But Henry is mediocre, and Mike Bell could only have success if he stayed behind that line. I think Jordan/Rhodes oversahdow Henry and I'd even say Bush or Fargas are probably better than Bell at this point. Did't say Porter torching Champ made him tops, but clearly proves he's able to play at an elite level. Javon Walker would be # 3 in Det, AZ, Indy,# 2 in Cincy, Buff, Sea, NE, Dal, NO, STL, Hou should I go on? He's solid starting but is not an elite #1, all I have been trying to say... as for NJX, you're pompous as hell and you think you "own" people, but dude it's the internet, wow what a great thing to have acomplished, and your "every" and "any" mad no sense, no matter what context you were going for, I graduated salutatorian in my high school class of 897 seniors, and I'm in Pharmacy college, but damn those elementary schools of mine...

portermvp84
05-16-2007, 12:08 PM
Who would you guys say has the best overall defense in the AFC West?

bored of education
05-16-2007, 12:58 PM
KC easily has the best D.......

Addict
05-16-2007, 01:03 PM
Who would you guys say has the best overall defense in the AFC West?

I'd say San Diego does.

Flyboy
05-16-2007, 01:06 PM
Who would you guys say has the best overall defense in the AFC West?

I would give the nod to the Raiders over SD only because I don't fully trust SD's secondary.

portermvp84
05-16-2007, 01:20 PM
See I'm not sure about that because the Chargers have better line backers and maybe a better d line.

Xenos
05-16-2007, 02:23 PM
I would give the nod to the Raiders over SD only because I don't fully trust SD's secondary.

The Raiders' secondary is better than SD because they have better safeties at the moment. Our corners are fine, especially Jammer, and Eric Weddle is an automatic upgrade over Terrence Kiel who was one reason the middle of the field was open to every single receiver and tight end.

NIN1984
05-16-2007, 02:44 PM
I think Chargers actually have the best defense in the west but Raiders are a close 2nd with Broncos and Chiefs right behind, all four teams have good defenses.

1. Chargers- Their front seven is so good it makes up for the lack of quality DBs, but keep in mind Jammer is no jobber.

2. Raiders- As good as the defense was last season ranked 3rd in the NFL, it could be even better if the offense can actually stay on the field longer.

3. Broncos- One game the defense is great than the next it looks very average, I like what they did in the draft all three of them rookies will get lots of playing time on the D-line, and I believe D.J Williams is moving in the middle so now I think he will become more of a playmaker.

4. Chiefs- They do have some nice young players on the defense but both starting CBs are over 31, Page and Pollard were good role players last season but how will they hold up for 16 games? Nap Harris as their starting MLB? Please. And I don’t really like the Donnie Edwards singing he’s like 34 they would be better off starting Keyron Fox.

And again I don’t think KC has a bad defense its just the others teams are better.

Phrost
05-16-2007, 03:03 PM
my favorite players in the afc west

cutler, bailey, dj willians, asomugha, michael huff, antonio cromartie,

Dude I live in Lewis Center Ohio and my HS team played Saine, and the results were not good for us.

Bring on the inSAINEity in 07!

SubNoize
05-16-2007, 07:26 PM
Okay, NJX, you're right since the Raiders were last in the NFL last year we must be last in very category, because nothing has changed at all and every team is fielding the same roster... by the way you wanted "proof" , which someone has stated doesn't matter, but here you go...
Walker vs Porter, Jordan/Rhodes vs Henry/Bell

Walker 226 REC. for 3528 yards and 30 TDs (Walker did miss almost all 05)
Porter 240 REC. for 3234 yards and 24 TDs (had Porter played last year, yards and TDs would potentially be higher.)

Henry/Bell tandem - 6072 career yards on 1478 carries for a 4.10 ypc average and going for 42 TDs. 154 Rec for 1074 yards.

Jordan/Rhodes tandem- 5010 career yards on 1198 carries for a 4.18 ypc average and going for 40 TDs. 220 Rec for 1703 yards.

Porter is just as legit as Walker as the stats show, both have had a wash out year and the stats are very close... I'd take Curry over Marshall at this point, so I still give edge to the Raiders in WR as far as #1 and #2 go.

Jordan/Rhodes are better receiving and produce more yards per carry. Both players also have less time as a feature back than Henry. Henry has most games started and this is why the yardage portion is much higher. Bell has only played one season though, so obviously the yardage goes to Den. So I guess it comes down to what you want your backfield to do. Jordan/Rhodes get more per carry, fumble less, and are better receiving out of the backfield. Henry/Bell is better at producing total yards and have a slight TD edge.
I still rate Jordan/Rhodes ahead of DEN here as well.

bored of education
05-16-2007, 07:49 PM
i dont want career numbers. what were the numbers last year.

Drew Bledsoe better than Peyton manning?

SubNoize
05-16-2007, 08:02 PM
considering Jordan played 9 games and Rhodes split time, Henry started 14 games and Bell a few as well, of course last year favors Den. Also poter active 4 games played in 1 1 catch, compared to Javon Walker starting 16 games for the first time in his career, obviously favors Den as well. I didn't know last year was the benchmark for all players here ongoing, i thought people regressed or improved season to season. The Bledsoe comment was stupid considering Peyton will pass his completions in 2 years, has thrown for more TDs already, thrown less picks and has a better Career QB rating.

bored of education
05-16-2007, 08:04 PM
Exactly, i was proving that your comparison of their stats as moronic. Travis Henry will get more yards this year than last. That alone is more than the Raiders as a team will get.

doingthisinsteadofwork
05-16-2007, 08:08 PM
Jordan is pretty crappy.He doesnt fit our system.He doesnt run with nearly as much as power as he should.He trys to run by guys with that 4.7 speed of his.
Dominic RHodes is a good backup.To be honest Oakland doesnt have anybody of starter quality at the RB position.

SubNoize
05-16-2007, 08:09 PM
Henry will gain more yards yes, but you can't really attribute this to him being a better back, as DEN can produce a 1,000 yard rusher with my grandma in the backfield because their lineman are great and know the ZBS like the back of their hand. I showed career stats to compare the players themselves, as my rankings were on personnel and not where the teams will finish stat wise. I hope what you meant by team you're talking about Jordan/Rhodes, because if you think the Raiders won't put up more yardage than Travis Henry himself then you're insane.

bored of education
05-16-2007, 08:10 PM
Yes that is what I meant sir.

SubNoize
05-16-2007, 08:19 PM
so anyways, to stop going back and forth with bickering and to prevent homerism, name one player on a division rival that you would most like to see on your team. I would go with LT for obvious reasons, the guy is just amazing and always shreads the Raiders.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-16-2007, 08:46 PM
Denver's O-Line was nothing special at all last year without Lepsis. Once Lepsis went out, I'd go as far as to call them below average. Cutler was under a lot of pressure, and we couldn't get any consistent gains on the ground.

CC.SD
05-16-2007, 09:16 PM
See I'm not sure about that because the Chargers have better line backers and maybe a better d line.

Maybe?

Igor Olshansky, Jamal Williams, Luis Castillo is about as solid as they come. Burgess means business, and Sapp still has something left, but Sands and whoever ends up stuck in that other slot...overall it's no comparison.

As for which player from the division I'd rather have: it's probably Javon Walker. Close second to Champ though.

JK17
05-16-2007, 09:25 PM
so anyways, to stop going back and forth with bickering and to prevent homerism, name one player on a division rival that you would most like to see on your team. I would go with LT for obvious reasons, the guy is just amazing and always shreads the Raiders.

I want...hm...I would say Javon Walker...San Diego is really set at their offensive line, QB, backfield, so that rules out those on offense. On defense I don't want to chagne anyone in our front seven very badly with any other team. The secondary isn't great, but I like Jammer and Cro (hoping he starts by about week 6), and McCree and Weddle should be good.

Walker would give SD Vincent Jackson and him as a 1-2 WR punch, with Craig Davis in the slot, and Parker as a situational guy...that would be a very nice receiving threat.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-17-2007, 02:24 AM
porter is not even within the vague ballpark of "as legit as walker" and the stats CLEARLY show that no matter how many idioitc ways you attempt to skew them.

I'm not sure they are as "clearly" in his favor as you seem to believe. Walker had a great year with Favre throwing him the ball and a solid one with Plummer/Cutler tossing the rock. Porter had two pretty good years, back to back, with Kerry Collins throwing the ball.

Walker has better numbers, but he has existed in supremely better functioning offenses, and you would have a hard time convincing me that he is a better athlete than Porter. How soon have we forgotten Porter torching Bailey for 3 touchdowns?

CC.SD
05-17-2007, 03:35 AM
Where the hell do the Raiders get off saying their offensive players are better than anyone's? That offense was the worst I've seen this decade, week in and week out, adn then they got rid of Randy Moss.

Walker is ten times the player Porter is.

NIN1984
05-17-2007, 08:59 AM
Jerry Porters career has been up and down, he was stuck behind Brown and Rice for a few years and than finally, when he got the chance to be the #1 WR in Oakland he played good not great. I think he had 998 yards just missed 1,000 had 9 TDs he was a big play threat. I thought he was only going to get better but than Raiders go and trade for Moss (huge mistake)

Porter has proven he can play at a very high level when he wantís, he seems to like Lane Kiffin and what he is doing. Porter now finally gets the chance to be the #1 WR again...

As of right now Walker is the best WR in the west but all Iím saying is Porter may surprise a few people.

SubNoize
05-17-2007, 11:51 AM
yeah take those 2 "bloody years away" and Porter and Walker are nealry tied for receptions as Porter was behind Brown and Rice for his first 2 season, it's 1 catch and 19, so you have 226 to 220 since 02, when Walker came in, wow Walker is sure WAAY ahead of Porter in talent, thanks for your supreme knowledge of the west. You should work for the league because you're near omnipotent... and Jordan has been around 3.9ypc since being in OAK, including being behind a god awful line, and has started 23 career games compared to Henry being the feature back in Buff until Mcgahee replaced him, and Tenn. for one season. Still can't deny the fact that Rhodes and Jordan add more versatility by catching out of the backfield. You have your own skewed perception on things and you say everyone thinks I'm wrong but people are constantly posting behind you in defense of what I've said. You've backed nothing up with fact at all and have not attempted, but I guess "because i said so" should work because you have 14000 post about crap right??? I think you have 0 knowledge of the OAK receivers and are mad because Walker is an average starter that compares to another average starter in Porter. The only stats you've posted are about Droughns and Anderson going for 1,000 and the only reason they've done so is because of the line. Denver doesn't have good RB, they have a good line, that provides padded stats for average guys, and it will be proven with Henry and Bell this year. Rhodes is light years ahed of Bell and Jordan is not too far behind Henry in terms of talent and ability. By the way the only Raider fan that bashes the running backs is DTIOW and he is the same guy that said we needed to draft AP because he was the only "logical" choice. Wow, he must represent all Raider fans. Thanks for being your pompous self and ranting in your own world as usual.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-17-2007, 12:01 PM
you keep going back to that. what did he do the rest of that year? anquan boldin had an incredible rookie season with the immortal jeff blake throwing him the ball. collins has led a team to a super bowl. again, i find it exceptionally hard to believe that jerry porter is some stud WR who's just been repressed every year he's been in oakland and i've seen absolutely nothing presented that makes me believe it. as a final note: porter started 14 games in 2002 with rich gannon throwing the ball and still had a mediocre season. *shrug* i'm sure a 29 year old receiver has plenty of room left for improvement, especially one with such an obvious dedication to the sport.

Porter caught 9 touchdowns despite being the 3rd wide receiver on the roster in 2002.

Also, after that week 10 bye in 2004, that Oakland offense started to heat up. In the 7 games that followed, Porter caught 31 balls for 538 yards and 8 touchdowns. And remember, that was just Oakland's offense moving from terribly crappy to mediocre.

bernbabybern820
05-17-2007, 12:02 PM
so anyways, to stop going back and forth with bickering and to prevent homerism, name one player on a division rival that you would most like to see on your team. I would go with LT for obvious reasons, the guy is just amazing and always shreads the Raiders.

I would go with Marcus McNeil. Yes im serious.

SubNoize
05-17-2007, 01:51 PM
Xonraider, PMD, and NIN1984 have all had similar sentiments on the situation, but again there's no arguing w/ you because you've already declared yourself the "master of everything" in your own head. I took away the stats for 2 years so you did 3 and said Walker had better "best" seasons. Ok well do we want to compare the Raiders offense in their worst seasons under Collins, to Brett Favre and Denver last year...b/c that would only further prove that Porter has had the ability to keep on a similar pace stat wise with Walker who has played along better o-lines and QBs... Bored of Education is a chiefs fan by the way... Never said catching made them better, said "versatile" which is important to the offense OAK is running. you completely Ignore the 70 Jordan caught by saying 15-10, by the way... I've read 3.9 and 3.87 never 3.77, I gues stats are subjective. You killed one of your own arguments by the way when talkign about Henry being better, you said "do you really wanna compare Denver's inept offense to Indy's" So do you think Jordan's ypc average could be down due to Oaklands inept offense?? Anyway, Jordan ran for more yards in his first year as a starter than Henry did as well... let me gues blame it on Henry being a rookie? With the improvement of the line this year Jordan will be well into the 4.0ypc average. Going back to Bell improving on in his "soph" season, like I said, i played Bell in HS and watched him in college and his game has not improved, I believe this is why he went undrafted. The only reason he has had any success in the NFL is because of the line he's running behind. by the way how many carries did Droughns have that year...? Over 300, you're almost bound to hit over 1,000 at that rate... I could get 1,000 yards in the NFL if I carried the ball a huge amount of times...

portermvp84
05-17-2007, 02:15 PM
KC easily has the best D.......


Your kidding right? Last time I saw the Raiders had a better D than the Cheifs do. i'm just checking, the Cheifs have some real potential. I can't wait to see Derrick Johnson and Beranrd Pollard down the road.

SubNoize
05-17-2007, 03:09 PM
ok so you compare Jake Plummers #s considering Walkers best year was in GB, why don't we compare Collins to Favre in the same season... you did this to favor yourself, which you've accused me of. Also Plummer didn't start the whole season, do we factor in Cutler's #s?

http://www.footballdb.com/players/jordala01. 3.8 average for last 2 years...
4.2 career average, again consider the line play since he's been here...

Article on improving line:
http://www.contracostatimes.com/raiders/ci_5832281

30 something RBs were snatched up quickly in free agency see Lewis, Green... so yeah people do still pick them up and expect them to perform at a higher level...

Droughns avg 4.0 yards a carry that season and is a lifetime 3.9 compared to Jordans 4.2... so 3.8 to 4.0 behind horrible lines a .02 difference...

Bell was also outgained by the back Rhodes split with...Joseph Addai, both rookies... Rhodes also carried an offense in a SB, when it was sputtering... He must be devestated Bell put up bigger #s. I also think you can get an idea of how somebody plays when you've watched game footage of him as a HS, College player and Pro and realize he makes the same mistakes. Living in the state he is from, we got a lot of Bell propoganda and a lot of people showed his weaknesses in our state HS football forum that he still displays.

Henry has improved how??? He's been like an elevator going up and down. He's never surpassed his 2002 season, as has often not even started. He's also played a whole 1 full season since being drafted...

I wasn't ranking them as a unit, I was ranking them as individuals...Also have added different players since those inept seasons... so yeah throw that garbage out.

Again, I'm supposed to believe because you think you know more than me??? (Hardly)... you're trying to prove that I was being homer when I ranked the Raiders last in a few categories and placed them higher in some based on the players they will be fielding, notice WILL, as in assuming the "future". We can bring up these past stats all day, but my ranking were based on the personnel ongoing, the line cannot get worse, plain and simple and the running game will improve with a healthy Jordan splitting carries with Rhodes. Both are better suited in a split role as both are not feature guys, but together I see them as a better combo than Henry/Bell...

There's also no way you can argue the point I made about Walker being #3 on some teams and #2 on others, actually you've said nothing about it...

Phrost
05-17-2007, 03:30 PM
I have this argument with this kid I know that says that Frank Gore is better than Steven Jackson. Should I back down or keep supporting Jackson? Wanna give me some facts?

bored of education
05-17-2007, 03:33 PM
Look up the facts yourself. Compare last year stats of each, career stats, situational stats. Using facts can only help your argument, the best being facts of most recent relevance.

Phrost
05-17-2007, 03:54 PM
Look up the facts yourself. Compare last year stats of each, career stats, situational stats. Using facts can only help your argument, the best being facts of most recent relevance.

Well its hard to get facts through considering he is a 49er fan and a canes fan. Not a bandwagon either.

San Diego Chicken
05-17-2007, 04:00 PM
Just for fun, I rated the top 10 players in the division -

1) LaDainian Tomlinson
2) Champ Bailey
3) Shawne Merriman
4) Larry Johnson
5) Nnamdi Asomugha
6) Jared Allen
7) Luis Castillo
8) Philip Rivers
9) Javon Walker
10) Brian Waters

Thoughts? Anyone want to take my 10 into a 20? I left the TE's out halfway on purpose.

SubNoize
05-17-2007, 04:19 PM
1.LT
2.Champ Bailey
3.Larry Johnson
4.Shawne Merriman
5.Antonio Gates
6.Derrick Burgess
7.Marcus McNeil
8.Tony Gonzalez
9.Jamaal Williams
10.Nnamdi Asomugha
11.Philip Rivers
12. Dre Bly
13.Jay Cutler
14.Luis Castillo
15.Brian Waters
16.DJ Williams
17.Quintin Jammer
18.Michael Huff
19.Javon Walker
20.Warren Sapp

niel89
05-17-2007, 04:41 PM
Droughns avg 4.0 yards a carry that season and is a lifetime 3.9 compared to Jordans 4.2... so 3.8 to 4.0 behind horrible lines a .02 difference...


4.0-3.8=.2

SubNoize
05-17-2007, 04:53 PM
yeah I noticed, but didn't care to edit...thanks though.

NIN1984
05-17-2007, 06:33 PM
1. LaDainian Tomlinson
2. Champ Bailey
3. Larry Johnson
4. Shawne Merriman
5. Nnamdi Asomugha
6. Antonio Gates
7. Jamal Williams
8. Derrick Burgess
9. Javon Walker
10. Brain Waters

Paranoidmoonduck
05-17-2007, 06:42 PM
in 2004 brandon stokely caught 10 tds and surpassed every other number porter has ever put up in spite of being the 3rd or 4th option in the colts passing attack. not that i'd compare the offenses, but quoting a single statistic is ridiculous. moreso considering jerry porter was the starter for 14/16 games in 2002, suggesting that even if he was the #3 WR, oakland commonly ran 3 WR sets.

in 2004, if you extrapolated those stats over the year, porter would've ended up with 70.85 catches (at 4.42 per game), 1229 yards (at 76.85 per game) and 18 tds (at 1.14 per game). if we extrapolate the best 7 game stretch for javon walker in 2004 (it's only fair if we're going to take porter's best seven games instead of looking at the season as a whole), he had 41 catches, 726 yards and 6 touchdowns. significantly besting porter's numbers in all but a single category. again, i can fudge statistics just as well as you guys can if i don't like what they show. if stats don't help your argument (and they don't), you might try finding something that does.

I have little interest in getting in a pissing contest over who the better wideout is. Athletically, the two are very close. Statistically, Walker is better, but that means little for the upcoming year, especially when Porter has been a cog in a broken machine for years now.

You're welcome to proclaim Walker grand poobah of wideouts for all I care.

661rep
05-17-2007, 07:31 PM
Just for fun, I rated the top 10 players in the division -

1) LaDainian Tomlinson
2) Champ Bailey
3) Shawne Merriman
4) Larry Johnson
5) Nnamdi Asomugha
6) Jared Allen
7) Luis Castillo
8) Philip Rivers
9) Javon Walker
10) Brian Waters

Thoughts? Anyone want to take my 10 into a 20? I left the TE's out halfway on purpose.

IMO Burgess is much better then Jared Allen.

San Diego Chicken
05-17-2007, 07:36 PM
IMO Burgess is much better then Jared Allen.

Yea, I left out Burgess which was probably a mistake, but I also left out Shaun Phillips, who is similar to Burgess (Burgess may be a little better though). I do think Allen is much more effective against the run. The AFC West has some very good front 7 players.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-17-2007, 08:13 PM
Yea, I left out Burgess which was probably a mistake, but I also left out Shaun Phillips, who is similar to Burgess (Burgess may be a little better though). I do think Allen is much more effective against the run. The AFC West has some very good front 7 players.

No offense, but outside of Merrimen, no one has more sacks the past two NFL seasons than Burgess. Burgess also plays the strongside and is actually quite good against the run.

BlindSite
05-17-2007, 08:37 PM
Burgess imo, is a poor man's dwight freeney. He needs to improve against the run. He's not bad in that area, but he's not that good either.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-17-2007, 08:38 PM
Burgess imo, is a poor man's dwight freeney. He needs to improve against the run. He's not bad in that area, but he's not that good either.

I think you're underselling him. He gets fantastic leverage and has held down the strongside of the line very well for someone his size.

BlindSite
05-17-2007, 08:40 PM
No, I agree, he's got amazing hip movement and is brilliant I think laterally, but what he needs to do is stop trying to bowl over bigger tackles and gaurds against the run which I've seen him do.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-17-2007, 08:41 PM
No, I agree, he's got amazing hip movement and is brilliant I think laterally, but what he needs to do is stop trying to bowl over bigger tackles and gaurds against the run which I've seen him do.

I think that's more him controlling his gap and not opening up a hole. Most defensive ends aren't asked to evade their blocking and take out a runner unless he passes within arms length.

BlindSite
05-17-2007, 09:34 PM
Yeah, I know that, but it might be a scheme thing as well, he's not been strong enough at the point of attack to control his gap, a lot of the time.

I'm not trying to knock the guy because I think he's a very good player, but I think that the defensive coordinator at times needs to rethink how he's used against the run when the offensive team is simply charging right at him and hammering him out of his gap and making a hole.

CC.SD
05-18-2007, 10:23 AM
Just for fun, I rated the top 10 players in the division -

1) LaDainian Tomlinson
2) Champ Bailey
3) Shawne Merriman
4) Larry Johnson
5) Nnamdi Asomugha
6) Jared Allen
7) Luis Castillo
8) Philip Rivers
9) Javon Walker
10) Brian Waters

Thoughts? Anyone want to take my 10 into a 20? I left the TE's out halfway on purpose.



1. LT
2. Gates
3. Bailey
4. LJ
5. Gonzo
6. Merriman
7. Asoalphabetsoup
8. Jamal Williams
9. Derrick Burgess
10. Rivers

I guess a little Charger heavy but these guys pretty much represent the elite at their positions. LT, Gates, Bailey, Burgess, Merriman and Jamal are the best at what they do. Asomughua or whatever and Rivers are rising stars at crucial positions, and you can't leave out LJ or Gonzalez.

bernbabybern820
05-18-2007, 12:07 PM
Yeah, I know that, but it might be a scheme thing as well, he's not been strong enough at the point of attack to control his gap, a lot of the time.

I'm not trying to knock the guy because I think he's a very good player, but I think that the defensive coordinator at times needs to rethink how he's used against the run when the offensive team is simply charging right at him and hammering him out of his gap and making a hole.

No its true. Hes not the greatest at holding at the point of attack. A lot of our d-linemen had trouble.

bored of education
05-18-2007, 12:32 PM
1. LT
2. Champ
3. Lights Out
4. LJ
5. Gates
6. Asomugha
7. Gonzalez
8. McNeil
9. Burgess
10. Phillips
11. Henry
12. Javon walker
13. Rivers
14. Morrison
15. Bly

or something

SubNoize
05-18-2007, 01:01 PM
I'm going to go w/ PMD on this way and say w/e you're the all mighty NJX so you'll shut up even though you've said nothing significant (Why compare 6th seasons now when it was best before?)... but I'd like to point out where you called me moronic for arguing this long and say you've responded to everything I've written...( Also never said Walker wasn't the best #1 in west( See Below), just said he's average.) Would be #3 behind Boldin and Fitzgerald, Wayne and Harrison, Williams and Johnson... so on...

1.LT
2.Champ Bailey
3.Larry Johnson
4.Shawne Merriman
5.Antonio Gates
6.Derrick Burgess
7.Marcus McNeil
8.Tony Gonzalez
9.Jamaal Williams
10.Nnamdi Asomugha
11.Philip Rivers
12. Dre Bly
13.Jay Cutler
14.Luis Castillo
15.Brian Waters
16.DJ Williams
17.Quintin Jammer
18.Michael Huff
19.Javon Walker <---First WR on list...
20.Warren Sapp

SubNoize
05-18-2007, 01:14 PM
Yeah I'm a homer alright, that's why when I ranked the division I picked the Chargers and Broncos ahaed of Oak, instead of being like "OMG were going to be 10-6 or 11-5... I see Oak closer between 6-8 wins "IF" the offense improves, which from I've read it should. Damn my homerism just because I'm not impressed by Javon Walker or Travis Henry/Mike Bell, disliking 3 rival team members, I'm a homer alright. Get a clue guy, if anything you've gone to great lengths of homerism by defending your guys so hard... Your facts are skewed toward your argument and have changed, we went from best to 6th season, you take Henrys stats behind good O-lines and compare them to Jordans behind crappy o-lines. what an argument, but again to stroke your ego, you can be right...feel better big guy?

CC.SD
05-18-2007, 02:27 PM
i have no idea how you think gates is a better or more important player than bailey, who is clearly the best player at a far more important position.

Well, it's probably because Gates is the only consistent aerial threat for the number 1 scoring offense in the league. LT was putting up crazy numbers for years, but the Bolts weren't winning any games, until Gates developed. His arrival turned the Chargers' O into one of the fiercest in the league. His presence was one of the main reason Rivers led us to the most wins in franchise history in his first year as a starter.

You can throw away from Champ, but when Gates is actually part of the gameplan (sometimes he just got no looks from Cam for whatever reason), nobody can cover him. He's faster and more agile than any linebacker, and he's bigger and more powerful than any DB. except Polamalu (Fight on!).

Also because Gates wrecked Champ this year in the end zone.

It's a one slot difference, not the upset of the century. Hopefully this will provide you with an idea. It's just an opinion, after all.

SubNoize
05-18-2007, 03:52 PM
I'd def. rate Bailey over Gates based on much of what NJX said. Also would like to add the fact that people gameplan around Bailey when playing the Broncos, and I think people would gameplan more for LT than Gates, you just more so put faith in your LBs and secondary...

Paranoidmoonduck
05-18-2007, 04:48 PM
i'll assume that the lack of effort is due to the lack of anything that vaguely substantiates the theory that the two players are comparable. but whatever. i have no problem proclaiming that javon walker is clearly the best wideout in the AFC West, because i have evidence that supports that theory. you can proclaim that they're no different athletically with a single game as evidence. yippee.

No, I can claim they are no different athletically because I have eyes. Porter, for all the trouble he causes with his jawing, is one of the more athletically impressive wideouts in the AFC, especially after the catch.

If you want to go ahead and claim that a wideouts production doesn't hinge entirely on the offense he functions in, then I suppose your welcome to, but I see no evidence for that.

CC.SD
05-18-2007, 04:56 PM
absolutely. but i like reasoning =P

moreso when there's an odd argument being made (that gates is better/more important than bailey). it's more interesting to debate the idea behind it.

i'd submit champ was more important, given the 7 (? i may not remember right) interceptions inside the opponents 5 yard line (preventing scores). the argument could be made that denver was a 6-10 team without bailey. i'm not sure you could've made the same argument for gates last year (the chargers would've been worse, but i'm not sure they would've been worse to the same degree). further, champ is one of the best run defenders at the cornerback position, so he's not just taking one player out of the game, he's helping to prevent big gains in a division with two of the best running backs in the league, allowing the linebackers to play more aggressively or to protect inside better.

It is an interesting debate. I don't mean any disrespect to Champ, he's still in my top 3. Champ's red zone picks are a good stat (why the hell do teams throw at him near the goal line?), but you can't really put a number on the impact Gates has, unless you are just comparing him to other tight ends, in which case he is the best. Taking guys out of the box, takes another tight end or linebacker out of LT's way. He doesn't need any more help. Gates usually demands a double team too, to really be effectively stopped, especially in the red zone. He's a big reason LT was such a goal line monster last year.

Champ probably has a bigger impact on his defense than Gates, just because LT is such an 800 pound gorilla, but for my money there's no bigger matchup problem in the NFL than 85.