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bantx
05-12-2007, 10:06 PM
who is faster reggie bush or hester...

i thnk its hester

Bengals1690
05-12-2007, 10:07 PM
who is faster reggie bush or hester...

i thnk its hester

straight line speed, yes. but in quickness and jukes and such, bush easily

Boston
05-12-2007, 10:07 PM
Yeah, it's the offseason alright...

Hester.

Phrost
05-12-2007, 10:08 PM
who is faster reggie bush or hester...

i thnk its hester

Speed=Hester
Acceleration=Hester
Vision=Reggie Bush
Hands=Reggie Bush
Running power=Reggie Bush
Open field ability=Reggie Bush
Big play ability=TIE

Better football player=Reggie Bush
More valuable player=Reggie Bush

ATLDirtyBirds
05-12-2007, 10:08 PM
Jerious Norwood. Oh wait.

fenikz
05-12-2007, 10:10 PM
Hester, **** the spurs

PoopSandwich
05-12-2007, 10:11 PM
I'm pretty sure Reggie was clocked faster, and am I the only one that remembers how fast Reggie Bush outran the entire Bears defense with ease?

Phrost
05-12-2007, 10:11 PM
Hester, **** the spurs

Yep, Hester. LOL The Spurs suck! Honestly though, they are boring to watch but they play the fundamentals better than anyone.

PACKmanN
05-12-2007, 10:13 PM
why would u put other????????

bantx
05-12-2007, 10:33 PM
why would u put other????????

while i beleive devin hester is the fastest players in the league right now, there are hundreds of other players in the nfl that could be faster, but i didnt take into account

Phrost
05-12-2007, 10:36 PM
while i beleive devin hester is the fastest players in the league right now, there are hundreds of other players in the nfl that could be faster, but i didnt take into account

Yes, but you asked specifically who is faster, Hester or Bush. You should have said who is the fastest player in the league.

49erfaithful
05-12-2007, 10:40 PM
straight line speed, yes. but in quickness and jukes and such, bush easily

my assessment as well

portermvp84
05-12-2007, 10:59 PM
Hester, he's a man on fire on kick returns and punt returns.

sweetness34
05-12-2007, 11:18 PM
I'm pretty sure Reggie was clocked faster, and am I the only one that remembers how fast Reggie Bush outran the entire Bears defense with ease?

And Urlacher kept up with him as well.

Hurricane Ditka
05-12-2007, 11:20 PM
I'm pretty sure Reggie was clocked faster, and am I the only one that remembers how fast Reggie Bush outran the entire Bears defense with ease?
It should be noted that said play was an illegal pick play, Colston extended his arms and prevent Chris Harris from following Bush in coverage.

Smokey Joe
05-12-2007, 11:22 PM
Yeah, it is pretty easy to out run a whole team when it is a pick play and no one else is around you, especially when you are a fast guy like Bush.

But Hester out ran whole special team units...

Ace
05-12-2007, 11:23 PM
Ted Ginn

10 char

Flyboy
05-12-2007, 11:24 PM
And Urlacher kept up with him as well.

Urlacher also admitted that he took a different angle than everyone else chasing Bush. But, anyway.

BlindSite
05-12-2007, 11:31 PM
Speed= Bush
Acceleration= Bush
Vision=Reggie Bush
Hands=Reggie Bush
Running power=Reggie Bush
Open field ability=Reggie Bush
Big play ability=Bush

Better football player=Reggie Bush
More valuable player=Reggie Bush

Bush is better in every aspect of the game. This is coming from a U fan too.

I like Hester, he's got great change of direction and cutting ability and is probably the best returnman in the game today, that being said he's not on par with reggie bush as far as raw ability cutting, running, accelerating and play making. Not many in the NFL are. He just needs some time to adjust to the NFL.

People forget just how good of a prospect reggie Bush is because he didn't put MVP like numbers up in his first year.

iloxygenil
05-12-2007, 11:56 PM
Jerious Norwood. Oh wait.

BY FAR faster than both of these guys in every aspect. Also a better football player. I am SO sick of all this Reggie Bush BS...he's not a good RB...never will be

TitleTown088
05-13-2007, 12:02 AM
Yeah, it is pretty easy to out run a whole team when it is a pick play and no one else is around you, especially when you are a fast guy like Bush.

But Hester out ran whole special team units...

Burly bear....... Do you remember Bush in the playoffs?

Moses
05-13-2007, 12:05 AM
BY FAR faster than both of these guys in every aspect. Also a better football player. I am SO sick of all this Reggie Bush BS...he's not a good RB...never will be

Is this a serious post?

bantx
05-13-2007, 12:07 AM
Speed= Bush
Acceleration= Bush
Vision=Reggie Bush
Hands=Reggie Bush
Running power=Reggie Bush
Open field ability=Reggie Bush
Big play ability=Bush

Better football player=Reggie Bush
More valuable player=Reggie Bush

Bush is better in every aspect of the game. This is coming from a U fan too.

I like Hester, he's got great change of direction and cutting ability and is probably the best returnman in the game today, that being said he's not on par with reggie bush as far as raw ability cutting, running, accelerating and play making. Not many in the NFL are. He just needs some time to adjust to the NFL.

People forget just how good of a prospect reggie Bush is because he didn't put MVP like numbers up in his first year.

all i asked was who was faster not who was better..

MP123
05-13-2007, 12:14 AM
Speed= Bush
Acceleration= Bush
Vision=Reggie Bush
Hands=Reggie Bush
Running power=Reggie Bush
Open field ability=Reggie Bush
Big play ability=Bush

Better football player=Reggie Bush
More valuable player=Reggie Bush

Bush is better in every aspect of the game. This is coming from a U fan too.

I like Hester, he's got great change of direction and cutting ability and is probably the best returnman in the game today, that being said he's not on par with reggie bush as far as raw ability cutting, running, accelerating and play making. Not many in the NFL are. He just needs some time to adjust to the NFL.

People forget just how good of a prospect reggie Bush is because he didn't put MVP like numbers up in his first year.

I agree with everything you have except for vision. I think Hester has the better vision.

Flyboy
05-13-2007, 12:22 AM
Is this a serious post?

I hope not.

fenikz
05-13-2007, 12:33 AM
does it really matter, both are extremely fast

sweetness34
05-13-2007, 12:44 AM
Better Return Man = Hester

Better Player = Bush

That's all that needs to be said here. I hope Devin moves to offense this next season and be a Reggie Bush type of player for us.

iloxygenil
05-13-2007, 01:00 AM
I hope not.

Have you ever seen Jerious Run? He's prolly the fastest player in the league. I'm not sure though, that Mathis cat is pretty fast...then again DHall outran him...so I don't know who is...but I know that Reggie's speed doesn't translate like Jerious' Hester is a baller though, and as far as football players go...Bush isn't a runningback...he can't handle the game as a RB...he's gotta be switched to WR as Peyton develops his hands.

bored of education
05-13-2007, 01:19 AM
Is this a serious topic.
Speed wise or impact wise?????


Herster=superb return man, not good that good as a CB, not even top 30. Reggie excellent all around RB receptions and carries wise. Must be top 30 overall as an RB.


HMmmmmMMMMmmmmmmmmm???????

Get a life if you want to be a hater. Hester is a return specialist. If u like Heter then you must love Miami's pick of Ted Ginn Jr RIGHT?????? Get a life. Its very hard to compare.

POSITION WISE Hester=CB not top 30...Bush RB most likely top 30.

soooooo yahhhhhh

sweetness34
05-13-2007, 01:29 AM
Is this a serious topic.
Speed wise or impact wise?????


Herster=superb return man, not good that good as a CB, not even top 30. Reggie excellent all around RB receptions and carries wise. Must be top 30 overall as an RB.


HMmmmmMMMMmmmmmmmmm???????

Get a life if you want to be a hater. Hester is a return specialist. If u like Heter then you must love Miami's pick of Ted Ginn Jr RIGHT?????? Get a life. Its very hard to compare.

POSITION WISE Hester=CB not top 30...Bush RB most likely top 30.

soooooo yahhhhhh

What the **** are you talking about? I can't even pick out the main thought of that post. Devin Hester was selected in the middle of the 2nd Round, Ted Ginn was selected #9 overall. I don't see how those two correlate to each other. Oh I'm sorry that's probably to big of a word for you reading your username, I don't see how they're even related.

sweetness34
05-13-2007, 01:30 AM
Yeah, it is pretty easy to out run a whole team when it is a pick play and no one else is around you, especially when you are a fast guy like Bush.

But Hester out ran whole special team units...

Still though, Manning totally jagged that play by taking a horrid angle and letting Bush go by.

bantx
05-13-2007, 01:32 AM
Is this a serious topic.
Speed wise or impact wise?????


Herster=superb return man, not good that good as a CB, not even top 30. Reggie excellent all around RB receptions and carries wise. Must be top 30 overall as an RB.


HMmmmmMMMMmmmmmmmmm???????

Get a life if you want to be a hater. Hester is a return specialist. If u like Heter then you must love Miami's pick of Ted Ginn Jr RIGHT?????? Get a life. Its very hard to compare.

POSITION WISE Hester=CB not top 30...Bush RB most likely top 30.

soooooo yahhhhhh

your a idiot...

255979119
05-13-2007, 03:07 AM
Kerry Collins, no brainer.

Oh, wait.

PoopSandwich
05-13-2007, 03:24 AM
Yeah, it is pretty easy to out run a whole team when it is a pick play and no one else is around you, especially when you are a fast guy like Bush.

But Hester out ran whole special team units...

So did Reggie...

Also, I love how much stock is put into 40 times, but when Reggie runs what, a 4.3 or around there, it doesn't get any credit, when Hester ran a 4.46 I believe?

Im also typing this at 4:30 AM im tired as hell.

This isn't bias either, im a U fan.

stephenson86
05-13-2007, 04:33 AM
I'm pretty sure Reggie was clocked faster, and am I the only one that remembers how fast Reggie Bush outran the entire Bears defense with ease?

funnyest thing about that was how urlacher also outran his entire defense

remix 6
05-13-2007, 07:21 AM
I'm pretty sure Reggie was clocked faster, and am I the only one that remembers how fast Reggie Bush outran the entire Bears defense with ease?

he didnt clock faster. both clocked at pro days

Bush was a 4.33 while Hester was 4.27 at Miami pro day

661rep
05-13-2007, 09:21 AM
They are both fast, but I would say Reggie is a bit faster.

PoopSandwich
05-13-2007, 09:53 AM
he didnt clock faster. both clocked at pro days

Bush was a 4.33 while Hester was 4.27 at Miami pro day

Ah ok, I remember seeing someone say on this board that Hester ran a 4.46, so I believed it, thanks for clearing it up.

PoopSandwich
05-13-2007, 09:56 AM
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/9273222

The group of defensive backs blistered the track. Two guys ran under 4.3 -- Tye Hill of Clemson and Tim Jennings of Georgia. Four posted times below 4.4: South Carolina's Johnathan Joseph (4.36), Texas' Michael Huff (4.36), Tennessee's Jason Allen (4.35) and Florida State's Antonio Cromartie (4.39). And five were just above 4.4: Nebraska's Daniel Bullocks (4.40), Howard's Antoine Bethea (4.40), Miami's Devin Hester (4.41), Baylor's Willie Andrew (4.45) and Texas' Cedric Griffin (4.46).

Thats where I saw it.

remix 6
05-13-2007, 10:42 AM
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/9273222

The group of defensive backs blistered the track. Two guys ran under 4.3 -- Tye Hill of Clemson and Tim Jennings of Georgia. Four posted times below 4.4: South Carolina's Johnathan Joseph (4.36), Texas' Michael Huff (4.36), Tennessee's Jason Allen (4.35) and Florida State's Antonio Cromartie (4.39). And five were just above 4.4: Nebraska's Daniel Bullocks (4.40), Howard's Antoine Bethea (4.40), Miami's Devin Hester (4.41), Baylor's Willie Andrew (4.45) and Texas' Cedric Griffin (4.46).

Thats where I saw it.
that was combine. Hester said he almost cried when he got a 4.41..he was embarrased

Addict
05-13-2007, 10:58 AM
that was combine. Hester said he almost cried when he got a 4.41..he was embarrased

what a sissy. He run to the stores to buy himself some cojones.

Moses
05-13-2007, 11:04 AM
Have you ever seen Jerious Run? He's prolly the fastest player in the league. I'm not sure though, that Mathis cat is pretty fast...then again DHall outran him...so I don't know who is...but I know that Reggie's speed doesn't translate like Jerious' Hester is a baller though, and as far as football players go...Bush isn't a runningback...he can't handle the game as a RB...he's gotta be switched to WR as Peyton develops his hands.

Jerius is shifty but he's not as fast as Bush. Bush accelerates better and has a higher top-end speed. Bush showed flashes as a runningback last season and will likely continue to improve that facet of his game. Saying Norwod is superior to Bush at this point as a football player is simply not true.

bored of education
05-13-2007, 12:57 PM
lets pretend I never posted in this thread, because I don't recall making that moronic post

VY10
05-13-2007, 01:11 PM
he didnt clock faster. both clocked at pro days

Bush was a 4.33 while Hester was 4.27 at Miami pro day

Pro day times aren't legit. They're biased towards making their players look good. It's better to trust the combine.

ccB
05-13-2007, 02:01 PM
Yamon Figurs...

Go_Eagles77
05-13-2007, 03:21 PM
According to Madden, Hester. lol

'cuse-213
05-13-2007, 04:52 PM
Thats easy, just look at their 40 times.

{sarcasm}

BigDawg819
05-13-2007, 04:58 PM
I'll make this simple:

Hester is better on Special Teams and Bush is the better over all player. Their respective speeds follow the same suit, Hester is faster on special teams and Bush is faster in offensive packages. These threads are just moronic and illustrate that no matter how hard the NFL tries, its not a all year sport.

neko4
05-13-2007, 07:48 PM
JEROME MATHIS
http://www.houstontexans.com/wpimages/mathis_td_chiefs112005.jpg

Thats also the nicest ive seen of Tex jerseys

Achilles33
05-13-2007, 07:52 PM
Hester is quick, he doesn't have that blazing bush speed. He is fast, but not bush fast. Bush is also quicker as well. If you watch most of Hester's returns, he breaks their ankles and then runs right by them when they are on the ground. Bush does that, or just runs right by them.

Shiver
05-13-2007, 07:58 PM
Jerius is shifty but he's not as fast as Bush. Bush accelerates better and has a higher top-end speed. Bush showed flashes as a runningback last season and will likely continue to improve that facet of his game. Saying Norwod is superior to Bush at this point as a football player is simply not true.

Except as a runner, in that regard Jerious is the better player. In fact he is a much better runner. Norwood clearly doesn't provide the dynamism that Bush provides in the passing attack, though.

TheChampIsHere
05-13-2007, 09:36 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bF6S0-A2UHg

not that it proves anything about speed....

I personally think all these speed arguments are silly. There is no clear cut fastest player and it certainly cant be proven. Obviously Hester is a lot faster than the 4.4 he ran at the combine and on any given play one guy can be faster than the other.

But I really do believe Hester is going to be the best RS in league history. I think the Bears may be getting ready for the prospect of teams kicking away from him by adding Norwood, who could field kicks that are kicked away from Hester.

neko4
05-13-2007, 09:38 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bF6S0-A2UHg

not that it proves anything about speed....

I personally think all these speed arguments are silly. There is no clear cut fastest player and it certainly cant be proven. Obviously Hester is a lot faster than the 4.4 he ran at the combine and on any given play one guy can be faster than the other.

But I really do believe Hester is going to be the best RS in league history. I think the Bears may be getting ready for the prospect of teams kicking away from him by adding Norwood, who could field kicks that are kicked away from Hester.

That was against Duke

TheChampIsHere
05-13-2007, 10:04 PM
That was against Duke

yeah but its still ridiculous. Im not saying it means anything, I just felt like posting it in case anyone hasnt seen it.

sweetness34
05-13-2007, 10:05 PM
Hester is quick, he doesn't have that blazing bush speed. He is fast, but not bush fast. Bush is also quicker as well. If you watch most of Hester's returns, he breaks their ankles and then runs right by them when they are on the ground. Bush does that, or just runs right by them.

So does Devin. I'd say Hester has more short area speed and quickness which is what makes him so effective he just explodes and hits a hole, while Bush has more in the tank for the long run.

Moses
05-13-2007, 11:29 PM
Except as a runner, in that regard Jerious is the better player. In fact he is a much better runner. Norwood clearly doesn't provide the dynamism that Bush provides in the passing attack, though.

Way too early to say that. We haven't seen enough of either player to make that determination. Based off college, Bush is the better runner. In the NFL, it's tough to compare the two because they are in very different situations and they're both playing second fiddle right now. I don't think you can say that Norwood is a much better runner because there isn't much evidence to support that viewpoint.

Shiver
05-13-2007, 11:32 PM
Way too early to say that. We haven't seen enough of either player to make that determination. Based off college, Bush is the better runner. In the NFL, it's tough to compare the two because they are in very different situations and they're both playing second fiddle right now. I don't think you can say that Norwood is a much better runner because there isn't much evidence to support that viewpoint.

Except for the fact that Norwood had 68 more yards than Bush, on 56 less carries. Or that Jerious Norwood actually broke four 20+ yard runs, including two 69+ yard runs, when Bush in contrast had none.

Moses
05-13-2007, 11:37 PM
Except for the fact that Norwood had 68 more yards than Bush, on 56 less carries. Or that Jerious Norwood actually broke four 20+ yard runs, including two 69+ yard runs, when Bush in contrast had none.

Very small sample of plays. Plus, as I mentioned, both are in very different situations. You can make a lot of arguments such as:
-Atlanta has a better overall rushing attack
-Norwood had more holes to run through
-Teams didn't key on Norwood like they did Bush
-etc.

Shiver
05-13-2007, 11:40 PM
Very small sample of plays. Plus, as I mentioned, both are in very different situations. You can make a lot of arguments such as:
-Atlanta has a better overall rushing attack
-Norwood had more holes to run through
-Teams didn't key on Norwood like they did Bush
-etc.

Atlanta's rushing attack was only superior because of Michael Vick, you should know that. Take him out and Atlanta has not been special.

Atlanta lost its best O-Lineman for most of the season, and both guards for most of the season. Norwood played as a '2' back like Bush, but clearly outclassed him as a runner. Deuce McAllister had no problems finding "holes" behind the New Orleans' O-Line.

The only time teams "keyed" in on Bush was when he was in space. You don't devote attention to a player who hasn't proven he can beat you inside the tackles. Teams cheated towards the perimeter because he would always bounce plays outside the Tackles, either that or reverse field.

Moses
05-13-2007, 11:42 PM
Atlanta's rushing attack was only superior because of Michael Vick, you should know that. Atlanta lost its best O-Lineman for most of the season, and both guards for most of the season. Norwood played as a '2' back like Bush, but clearly outclassed him as a runner. The only time teams "keyed" in on Bush was when he was in space. You don't devote attention to a player who hasn't proven he can beat you inside the tackles. Teams cheated towards the perimeter because he would always bounce plays outside the Tackles, either that or reverse field.

They still opened up some nice holes for the runningbacks, at least when I watched. I think it's way too premature to say that Norwood is a much better runner than Bush.

Seasonticketholder
05-14-2007, 09:02 AM
Except as a runner, in that regard Jerious is the better player. In fact he is a much better runner. Norwood clearly doesn't provide the dynamism that Bush provides in the passing attack, though.

Surely you do not actually believe that Norwood is a better runner than Bush? It is simply not true and your opinion here is purely homerific. Your rejoinder to my argument is likely to be a few comments talking about how many yards Norwood averaged per run and how many big runs he had. You will mention the fact that Norwood played in a ZBS and made "most" of those long runs late in the game or when he was subbing in on some 3rd downs (when defenses were thinking that it was an obvious pass play).

Bush improved as a runner, particularly toward the end of the season when he was average over 5 yards per carry. The difference is he was still playing against starters whose sole game plan was stopping him. Also, people like to talk about Bush's running ability or supposed lack thereof, but in the beginning of the season his problems stemmed more from his own decisions to try to look for a big play rather than defenses just coming out and stopping him. I remember on NFL Network when Marshall Faulk broke down footage on Bush and showed that Bush was avoiding big plays that he could easily make while trying to break a play outside. Because defenses already knew where he was running, they would immediately attack the edges and he would usually end up running out of bounds. I happen to believe that the 44 yard run he had against the Titans in preseason provided Bush with the illusion that he could just retreat outside on every play. Once Sean Payton and others (including Faulk) told him to just take what the defense gave him, he started to show those flashes of brilliance that made him the top player in last year's draft. Now, because he was willing to cut back, defenses no longer could just look to attack the edge. Well, what does that do for Bush? It opens the edge up anytime he chooses to cut back. If you watched the games from Pittsburgh on through the end of the season, you could see just how effective he was; for emphasis, against Philadelphia in the playoffs, he was able to cut back against the grain and reverse field for a 20+ yard run simply because the defenses could not commit to the edges on him. That play would not have been there for him in the beginning of last season. Against Chicago, the Saints sort of relied to heavily on the pass but Bush was the only back that was able to get some really good runs against the Bears defense. I think the game against the Giants was a preview of what Bush as a runner will be like.

So, again, to call Norwood a better runner at this stage is premature and, even more, is playing fast and loose with the facts. Also, I know you did not make this argument but a couple others did. Norwood is not faster than Bush. A lot of Falcons fans continue to argue that he ran some ridiculous time at the combine even on the actual Falcons site. I have continued to refute these claims with actual evidence. Norwood ran a 4.40 at the combine. He is fast and shifty but he's not Bush fast.

Here's the evidence:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/9269912

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=17310
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-combinenotes022606&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Pass this info on to your good friends on the Falcons message board. And by the way, also tell them that Chris Houston MAY NOT HAVE RUN a 4.32 as first believed at the combine. Houston is darn fast but the 4.32 was an unofficial time according to the article below that EVERYONE ran with and, of course, no one ever seemed to go back and correct with the official time. His official time here is 4.4:

The NFL Network was also guilty of posting 40 times during the combine this year that ended up being WAY faster than the official 40 times. Remember that 4.32 Chris Houston ran? The official time was right at 4.40. Adrian Peterson's 4.35 became a 4.41. I know that they want to get the info out as soon as possible, and believe me, I loved the instant info as well, but too many people ran with their unofficial 40 times as legit when the official combine numbers ended up being higher in almost every case. Then, when you try to provide legit NFL combine/workout info, people think the info is bad because it isn't what is in Gil Brandt's column or on the NFL Network.

http://blogs.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2007/03/

Interestingly enough, Brandt did not have him a a 4.32 but a 4.35: http://www.nfl.com/combine/story/10026017

bernbabybern820
05-14-2007, 10:19 AM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bF6S0-A2UHg

not that it proves anything about speed....

I personally think all these speed arguments are silly. There is no clear cut fastest player and it certainly cant be proven. Obviously Hester is a lot faster than the 4.4 he ran at the combine and on any given play one guy can be faster than the other.

But I really do believe Hester is going to be the best RS in league history. I think the Bears may be getting ready for the prospect of teams kicking away from him by adding Norwood, who could field kicks that are kicked away from Hester.

lol he was almost running half speed the whole time.

BUSTKUNTLAWL
05-14-2007, 12:04 PM
Bush does not have better vision than Hester..

What makes Hester so special on kick returns is his vision.

Sorry, Hester is faster.

Bush is bigger,stronger, and clearly a better overall player though.

BUSTKUNTLAWL
05-14-2007, 12:05 PM
"I think the Bears may be getting ready for the prospect of teams kicking away from him by adding Norwood, who could field kicks that are kicked away from Hester."

Who is Norwood?

And Hester was officially moved to offense as of today.

sweetness34
05-14-2007, 12:12 PM
What the hell are you talking about? We didn't add Norwood. He's on the Falcons.

We added Garrett Wolfe who probably will be put back with Hester on Punts and Kickoffs so they don't kick away from him. Or well if they do, Garrett has playmaking ability as well.

Shiver
05-14-2007, 12:54 PM
Surely you do not actually believe that Norwood is a better runner than Bush? It is simply not true and your opinion here is purely homerific. Your rejoinder to my argument is likely to be a few comments talking about how many yards Norwood averaged per run and how many big runs he had. You will mention the fact that Norwood played in a ZBS and made "most" of those long runs late in the game or when he was subbing in on some 3rd downs (when defenses were thinking that it was an obvious pass play).


The 69 yard run against the Redskins was against their starters, when the game was still in the balance. He locked up the win with his play. He showed power, vision, and explosive speed. He played in the same role as Reggie Bush, and outdid him as a runner. You can argue the 'it's too soon' line, all you want in fact. That doesn't change the fact that Norwood outplayed him as a RB last year.

Seasonticketholder
05-14-2007, 01:54 PM
The 69 yard run against the Redskins was against their starters, when the game was still in the balance. He locked up the win with his play. He showed power, vision, and explosive speed. He played in the same role as Reggie Bush, and outdid him as a runner. You can argue the 'it's too soon' line, all you want in fact. That doesn't change the fact that Norwood outplayed him as a RB last year.

I am not merely arguing any "it's too soon" line. You isolate a few statements from what was a very long post on my part to make this
baseless argument. You point out one run that Norwood had against
starters but do little to refute the rest of my argument. And you fail
to acknowledge the fact that Norwood was playing in a ZBS. I have
watched the ZBS turn average backs into studs and most of those
average backs become duds once they are no longer in that system.
See: Olandis Gary for example. Outside of Clinton Portis, most RBs
that leave an offense that has a ZBS fail to be productive. The Falcons
are eliminating the ZBS this year. Surely, you don't think that Norwood,
especially if he starts, will average anything close to 6.4 yards per carry.
Heck, I don't even think he will sniff 5.0 yards a carry but that's just me.
And that's not to say that he cannot be a good back or anything but I
think it is nothing but pure homerism that so many Falcons fans seem so
eager to annoint this guy as the second coming! Also, go back and look at
LaDainian Tomlison's rookie year. He posted over 1000 yards but his average
was around the same as Reggie, it is just that had more carries. Now, this is in NO WAY, SHAPE, FORM OR FASHION, an insinuation that Bush is going to be the second L.T. But the point here is that if you do base your argument off one year of play, you might as well have suggested that Norwood did more with less opportunities than L.T. did as well. Such an argument on your part would be pure balderdash and you know it...just as it is in this case!

Just as I told Falcons fans last year we would see when the games are played...we will see what happens this year between Bush and Norwood as the games are played this season.

awfullyquiet
05-14-2007, 02:17 PM
What the hell are you talking about? We didn't add Norwood. He's on the Falcons.

We added Garrett Wolfe who probably will be put back with Hester on Punts and Kickoffs so they don't kick away from him. Or well if they do, Garrett has playmaking ability as well.

5-4-2 KO Return. Man.
Sickning.

Jimmy
05-14-2007, 02:24 PM
bush because he's hitting kim kardashian

Shiver
05-14-2007, 02:33 PM
I am not merely arguing any "it's too soon" line. You isolate a few statements from what was a very long post on my part to make this
baseless argument.

Most of your post was superfluous. I merely cut right to the point. I never said Norwood was "faster," nor did I claim Bush didn't show slight improvements as a player as the season went along.

You point out one run that Norwood had against starters but do little to refute the rest of my argument.

It did refute part of your argument. Which was Norwood made his big runs when the games were late in the game, or on 3rd down. That point had no merit, and I made sure to debunk it.

And you fail to acknowledge the fact that Norwood was playing in a ZBS. I have watched the ZBS turn average backs into studs and most of those average backs become duds once they are no longer in that system.
See: Olandis Gary for example. Outside of Clinton Portis, most RBs
that leave an offense that has a ZBS fail to be productive. The Falcons
are eliminating the ZBS this year.

That is an irrelevant point. Every team in the NFL uses zone blocking principles, it's just that a few teams use it exclusively. The Alex Gibbs' scheme didn't help Green Bay Packers, or Houston Texans' rushing attack produce "stud" Running Backs.

Deuce McAllister had no problem running behind the Saints O-Line. That's because he ran with power and vision, inside the tackles. Reggie Bush didn't show a lot of either last year. Bart Scott, LB from the Ravens, laughed at the idea that they would worry about Reggie Bush as a runner.

Surely, you don't think that Norwood, especially if he starts, will average anything close to 6.4 yards per carry.

Of course he wouldn't. That has nothing to do with my argument.

Heck, I don't even think he will sniff 5.0 yards a carry but that's just me.

Of course you wouldn't.

And that's not to say that he cannot be a good back or anything but I
think it is nothing but pure homerism that so many Falcons fans seem so
eager to annoint this guy as the second coming!

If any player has been prematurely anointed, it isn't Jerious Norwood, it is Reggie Bush.

Also, go back and look at LaDainian Tomlison's rookie year. He posted over 1000 yards but his average was around the same as Reggie, it is just that had more carries. Now, this is in NO WAY, SHAPE, FORM OR FASHION, an insinuation that Bush is going to be the second L.T. But the point here is that if you do base your argument off one year of play, you might as well have suggested that Norwood did more with less opportunities than L.T. did as well. Such an argument on your part would be pure balderdash and you know it...just as it is in this case!

Except it is.

LaDainian Tomlinson played on the worst team in the NFL. He was the focal point of every defense the Chargers faced. Reggie Bush played 2nd fiddle to Deuce McAllister, who is underrated. The Saints O-Line had no problem opening holes for McAllister to run through. Defenses struggled mightily stopping him, yet had no trouble containing Bush as a runner. There is a massive difference between Tomlinson's situation last year, and Bush this year.

Just as I told Falcons fans last year we would see when the games are played...we will see what happens this year between Bush and Norwood as the games are played this season.

I never said Norwood was the better player.

sweetness34
05-14-2007, 02:33 PM
bush because he's hitting kim kardashian

Who hasn't? haha

draftguru151
05-14-2007, 02:34 PM
Not sure if this has been said but...

Reggie Bush- 4.33
Devin Hester- 4.27

Those are each of their pro day times.

sweetness34
05-14-2007, 02:36 PM
Go Shiver!! Whoot!

You mess with the bull....You get the horns. :D

Seasonticketholder
05-14-2007, 03:09 PM
Most of your post was superfluous. I merely cut right to the point. I never said Norwood was "faster," nor did I claim Bush didn't show slight improvements as a player as the season went along.



It did refute part of your argument. Which was Norwood made his big runs when the games were late in the game, or on 3rd down. That point had no merit, and I made sure to debunk it.



That is an irrelevant point. Every team in the NFL uses zone blocking principles, it's just that a few teams use it exclusively. The Alex Gibbs' scheme didn't help Green Bay Packers, or Houston Texans' rushing attack produce "stud" Running Backs.

Deuce McAllister had no problem running behind the Saints O-Line. That's because he ran with power and vision, inside the tackles. Reggie Bush didn't show a lot of either last year. Bart Scott, LB from the Ravens, laughed at the idea that they would worry about Reggie Bush as a runner.



Of course he wouldn't. That has nothing to do with my argument.



Of course you wouldn't.



If any player has been prematurely anointed, it isn't Jerious Norwood, it is Reggie Bush.



Except it is.

LaDainian Tomlinson played on the worst team in the NFL. He was the focal point of every defense the Chargers faced. Reggie Bush played 2nd fiddle to Deuce McAllister, who is underrated. The Saints O-Line had no problem opening holes for McAllister to run through. Defenses struggled mightily stopping him, yet had no trouble containing Bush as a runner. There is a massive difference between Tomlinson's situation last year, and Bush this year.



I never said Norwood was the better player.

1.) I never said you stated that Norwood was faster. In fact, I told you that was for the other two individuals in this thread who made that claim.

2.) You cannot refute an "entire" argument with just "one" example.

3.) There are only two teams that effectively run the ZBS and they bought were taught by Alex Gibbs: Denver and Atlanta. Citing Green Bay and Houston does nothing to take away from the argument I made. Norwood has good enough speed to be effective in a ZBS that stresses being able to make that one cut.

4.) First of all, the Saints offensive line acquited itself well at pass blocking throughout the entire season. But the run-blocking was not as effective as some might be led to believe. The line begin to gel as the season progressed. Also, you mention that Deuce did well. But I already EXPLAINED that Reggie's issues had more to do with the decisions he was making, not defenses stopping him and certainly not a lack of vision. He saw the holes, but still chose to take it outside. Again, as I said before, it was sort of a byproduct of that 44 yard run in preseason that made Reggie just believe that he could do the same thing on each play. Once he decided to alter his decisions, he had NO PROBLEMS running the football, particularly up between the tackles where some thought he could not be effective at the pro-level.

5.) You're saying "of course he wouldn't" but in the same breath using his production on the field as a sort of barometer for suggesting that Norwood is the better runner.

6.) I am glad you recognize that "I wouldn't."

7.) Bush was given the hype he was given based on his production in college. It is no different than Calvin Johnson this year. But the hype around Norwood on the Falcons message board reaches the level of sheer lunacy with people comparing him to everybody from Eric Dickerson to OJ Simpson and suggesting that he will be an 1800 yard back this season. Anything's possible but that sounds like crazy hype for a guy with a lot to still prove.

8.) First of all, one of my biggest pet peeves is when a person emphatically states that A is not B and then someone turns around and uses a rather weak explanation to suggest that you are saying A is B. I have clearly stated that I am not saying that Bush is as good or better than L.T. You use that as a red herring to get away from the true intention of my argument, which you cannot refute. That argument is this: Norwood averaged more yards-per-run than L.T. too and "SEEMINGLY" did more pound-for-pound than LT. Is he better? Because rest assured, if Norwood had been a rookie when L.T. was a rookie, I guarantee there would be Falcons fans--maybe not you--who would argue that with more carries, Norwood would have outclassed and outproduced L.T. The reason the argument is similar to the one with Bush is because you are basing your contention on Norwood being a better runner than Bush off Norwood's production, dismissing other crucial variables that better explains the difference in production between the two plays. Secondly, as I stated before, our run-blocking was not as great as you think. A lot of Deuce's yards were made just off sheer desire and determination on his part. A lot of times, he would push the pile. The blocking did get better as the year went on. We took two offensive linemen in the draft for a reason. Nesbit might be replaced by the rookie Alleman. Stinchcomb is great on pass blocking but probably one of the less-than-formidable run-blocking RTs in all the league. Brown is superb. So is Evans. And Faine does a good job. As the guys gelled, again, they did a better job. Also, people like to say that the Chargers line was so bad or the team. But outside the issues at left tackle position--which they were finally able to resolve with the selection of Marcus McNeil last year--the Chargers line is stout. Also, defenses did not contain Bush. Knowing a guy will run outside and making sure you attack the edges enough to string the play far enough outside that he runs out of bounds is not stopping Reggie Bush; it is more like playing into his hand. Reggie Bush was his own worst enemy at the beginning of the season. When he started to take the holes that were there rather than just look to go outside, he was able to make plays and defenses had to begin to play more honest against him.

9.) You never said Norwood was the better player; you just implied it and you did call him the better runner. And I am telling you that we will see when the games are played this season and, even, beyond since one year does not make a career.

Phrost
05-14-2007, 03:22 PM
OK, Shiver and STH, I, as a divisional rival standpoint will rule in favor of Shiver. It is obvious that Norwood totally outclassed Bush as a pure RB. Other teams barely had to respect Vick and the passing attack, while these same teams had to respect Brees at all times. Which in itself opened stuff up for Bush.

Maybe just a one year thing...but Jerious as a RB was > Bush last year.

Shiver
05-14-2007, 03:26 PM
I'll go inverted here:

I never "implied" that Norwood was the superior player, or talent. In fact I prefaced my statement that Norwood was a more productive runner last year with that fact. What Bush provides as a receiver cannot adequately be quantified, in comparison with other backs. He will only get better at it too, which is scary. As a pure runner he has a lot to work on.

I agree with you. Bush gradually improved as a runner, and showed glimpses of potential. However, regardless, I think Norwood had a more solid season as a runner. Or, I should say, was more natural as one. Maybe it was because he played behind a mediocre O-Line, in the SEC, and he got a better taste of NFL type speed.

Don't get me started on how much I hate typical Falcons' message boards. The homers are ridiculous. Then again, every team has its fair share of ignorant people.

By saying of course he wouldn't average 6+ YPC as a starter, I meant that he played his '2' role perfectly. Most secondary runners typically produce more than the incumbent starter. They have an easier assignment, obviously. I was just bothered that Reggie Bush was not like a Laurence Maroney, Joseph Addai, Maurice Jones-Drew, Jerious Norwood. He didn't excel as a secondary back like those aforementioned players did.

By referencing Houston and Green Bay, who use the exact scheme, I was proving that the Alex Gibbs' system isn't the 'end all, be all' for a running system. Denver is successful because Mike Shannahan is the best play caller in the NFL, and they've kept amazing continuity on the O-Line. Atlanta's rushing attack has been fairly mediocre, but the stats don't reflect that because it includes Michael Vick into the equation.

Seasonticketholder
05-14-2007, 03:32 PM
OK, Shiver and STH, I, as a divisional rival standpoint will rule in favor of Shiver. It is obvious that Norwood totally outclassed Bush as a pure RB. Other teams barely had to respect Vick and the passing attack, while these same teams had to respect Brees at all times. Which in itself opened stuff up for Bush.

Maybe just a one year thing...but Jerious as a RB was > Bush last year.

Shiver has time spent on this board. It is not a surprise that others would give him the benefit of the doubt and agree with him. But I could be wrong.

Also, it is not a really good argument to say that Brees opened up things for Bush and Vick did not for Norwood if I have already stated that Bush's ineffectiveness running the ball earlier in the season was based upon his own decision to not take holes available to him and, instead, his choice to bounce every play outside. So even if Brees opened things up for Bush, it was the choices by Bush, not defenses stopping him.

Seasonticketholder
05-14-2007, 03:32 PM
I'll go inverted here:

I never "implied" that Norwood was the superior player, or talent. In fact I prefaced my statement that Norwood was a more productive runner last year with that fact. What Bush provides as a receiver cannot adequately be quantified, in comparison with other backs. He will only get better at it too, which is scary. As a pure runner he has a lot to work on.

I agree with you. Bush gradually improved as a runner, and showed glimpses of potential. However, regardless, I think Norwood had a more solid season as a runner. Or, I should say, was more natural as one. Maybe it was because he played behind a mediocre O-Line, in the SEC, and he got a better taste of NFL type speed.

Don't get me started on how much I hate typical Falcons' message boards. The homers are ridiculous. Then again, every team has its fair share of ignorant people.

By saying of course he wouldn't average 6+ YPC as a starter, I meant that he played his '2' role perfectly. Most secondary runners typically produce more than the incumbent starter. They have an easier assignment, obviously. I was just bothered that Reggie Bush was not like a Laurence Maroney, Joseph Addai, Maurice Jones-Drew, Jerious Norwood. He didn't excel as a secondary back like those aforementioned players did.

By referencing Houston and Green Bay, who use the exact scheme, I was proving that the Alex Gibbs' system isn't the 'end all, be all' for a running system. Denver is successful because Mike Shannahan is the best play caller in the NFL, and they've kept amazing continuity on the O-Line. Atlanta's rushing attack has been fairly mediocre, but the stats don't reflect that because it includes Michael Vick into the equation.

Though we have some points of disagreement, your points here are well taken.

BUSTKUNTLAWL
05-14-2007, 04:37 PM
bush because he's hitting kim kardashian

Every guy on the internet has seen her naked.

He could do better.