PDA

View Full Version : Is DeSean Jackson a Ted Ginn type of player?


Oaktown1981
05-13-2007, 02:37 PM
All the videos I've seen online are just him returning punts.


Thanks

doingthisinsteadofwork
05-13-2007, 02:38 PM
no Ginn is a track star and Desean is a football player.

Sportsfan486
05-13-2007, 02:45 PM
no Ginn is a track star and Desean is a football player.

Yeah, he's a considerably better receiver. Unlike Ginn he can actually run routes.

moc182
05-13-2007, 02:51 PM
D-Jack has better short area quickness and he's not a long strider like Ginn which will ultimately make him more effective in the short to intermediate passing game at the next level.

Joeyjr09
05-13-2007, 02:58 PM
Outside of the small build and amazing speed, they seem to be somewhat different. People bash on Ginn more for whatever reason. I don't quite understand it.

Both need more polish. Jackson will me better at creating in the short spaces and across the middle although I wonder how he will hold up with his small frame. He is a better WR in that sense tho. Ginn has better pure speed once he gets going and is better at making people miss then people like to give him credit for. Just because hes not Reggie Bush doesn't mean he can't make people miss. I think Ginn will be the better KR in the Hester mold while Jackson will be a notch below, at the Dante Hall level.

Ginn will be the better deep threat and can do more on offense in terms of reverses and being a decoy. I think Jackson is flashier which is why people tend to like him more but I think Ginn will be a better big play threat and open up the offense more in the NFL then Jackson will.

All this as of now tho. IF Jackson is horrible next year, we won't even be having this conversation.

Turtlepower
05-13-2007, 03:03 PM
Everyone seems to think that Ginn is the better KR than Jackson, but people have to understand that one of them is an all-american KR (Jackson).

OhioState
05-13-2007, 03:17 PM
Everyone seems to think that Ginn is the better KR than Jackson, but people have to understand that one of them is an all-american KR (Jackson).

so is ginn. the kid returned the most punts in big ten history in three years of work. Anyway, i think that Ginn once coached up will be better, i mean he has only been a reciever for two years and he needs a little time. Ginn and jackson are both great threats and playmakers so in that sense both are alike

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
05-13-2007, 03:44 PM
Jackson is much more agile and nimble. He makes people miss much easier than Ginn. Better hands, better route runner, better return man. Jackson is just better than Ginn.

ironman4579
05-13-2007, 03:46 PM
so is ginn. the kid returned the most punts in big ten history in three years of work. Anyway, i think that Ginn once coached up will be better, i mean he has only been a reciever for two years and he needs a little time. Ginn and jackson are both great threats and playmakers so in that sense both are alike

Do you mean he returned the most punts for TD's?

Michigan
05-13-2007, 04:35 PM
i think ginn was a better prospect than jackson will be. 170 is just too small and if he gets to 180+, he won't be desean jackson.

Purple N Proud
05-13-2007, 04:41 PM
so much hate for ted ginn...it makes me wonder if most people ever saw him play or just remember hearing how raw he was when he was a freshman

Acreboy
05-13-2007, 05:14 PM
no Ginn is a track star and Desean is a football player.
No, Ginn is a ball player.

Xavier Carter was a track star.

DeSean is just a more reliable player.

keylime_5
05-13-2007, 05:18 PM
no Ginn is a track star and Desean is a football player.

gimme a break. Ginn was the best CB in the country by far coming out of High School. Ginn has been a WR for 3 years of his life and was a star at that position. Jackson has been a WR his whole life, so he's had about 12 years of playing the position probably. Ginn has made Leon Hall, Aaron Ross, and some other top corners look like fools. If you don't think Ginn is a football player then you are insane.

Jimmy
05-13-2007, 05:20 PM
the best thing desean can do is increase his catch #'s. if he can rack up 5+ catches a game, and show he is a good route runner, and can catch in traffic and not really get shut down by anyone.. probably a top 15 pick

keylime_5
05-13-2007, 05:21 PM
Everyone seems to think that Ginn is the better KR than Jackson, but people have to understand that one of them is an all-american KR (Jackson).

Ginn has the all time RECORD for most return touchdowns. I swear the folks on this board have absolutely no idea what they're talking about when the subject of Ted Ginn comes up. They just see that he's a 180 lb. speed receiver and make all these asumptions about him. Ginn was one of the three best receivers in all of college football last year along with Johnson and Jarrett, his production was incredible, every time he touched the ball he could've scored.

ironman4579
05-13-2007, 05:27 PM
Ginn has the all time RECORD for most return touchdowns. I swear the folks on this board have absolutely no idea what they're talking about when the subject of Ted Ginn comes up. They just see that he's a 180 lb. speed receiver and make all these asumptions about him. Ginn was one of the three best receivers in all of college football last year along with Johnson and Jarrett, his production was incredible, every time he touched the ball he could've scored.

All time big 10 record perhaps, not the NCAA record. That said, I like Ginn over Jackson.

HuskerNation
05-13-2007, 06:12 PM
Some of you idiots are reallly selling teddy short on how talented he actually is.

Sportsfan486
05-13-2007, 06:26 PM
Ginn has the all time RECORD for most return touchdowns. I swear the folks on this board have absolutely no idea what they're talking about when the subject of Ted Ginn comes up. They just see that he's a 180 lb. speed receiver and make all these asumptions about him. Ginn was one of the three best receivers in all of college football last year along with Johnson and Jarrett, his production was incredible, every time he touched the ball he could've scored.

59 781 13.2 9 with the heisman winner throwing to him.

Yeah.............................................. ......

doingthisinsteadofwork
05-13-2007, 06:27 PM
really the only thing I see in Ginn is good straight line speed nothing else.

HuskerNation
05-13-2007, 06:33 PM
really the only thing I see in Ginn is good straight line speed nothing else.

Go watch his youtube video, watch all the jukes then come back, and I'll kick ya in the nuts for good measure. How's that sound?

doingthisinsteadofwork
05-13-2007, 06:42 PM
Its quite obvious your arguments over if its only based off a highlight video.

HuskerNation
05-13-2007, 06:47 PM
Its quite obvious your arguments over if its only based off a highlight video.

It's obvious you've never seen him play, or else you'd know he has some pretty nice short area moves.

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
05-13-2007, 06:50 PM
It's obvious you've never seen him play, or else you'd know he has some pretty nice short area moves.

I think I just took a dump in your mouth. Ted Ginn isn't good in the short routes.

HuskerNation
05-13-2007, 06:54 PM
I think I just took a dump in your mouth. Ted Ginn isn't good in the short routes.

I've seen him make plenty of people miss in short space over the last 3 years. I've never met a dude who gets off on dumping in other guys mouths. You must be one of those freaky f*ggots huh?

doingthisinsteadofwork
05-13-2007, 06:56 PM
It's obvious you've never seen him play, or else you'd know he has some pretty nice short area moves.
Highlight videos can make you think that.

Zyro_1014
05-13-2007, 06:59 PM
Desean Jackson is more of the total package than Ginn. Jackson is a Reciever who returns, and Ginn is more of a returner who trys to recieve

filthee
05-13-2007, 07:51 PM
Who gives a crap?

schmiddog
05-13-2007, 08:32 PM
Ginn is a better athlete(one of the best 3 or 4 in this year's draft)

Jackson is a better football player, at least right now. His weight is a legitimate concern though, it will be interesting to see what kind of buzz it creates before the draft if he doesn't pack on some pounds

Dolfan2788
05-13-2007, 08:51 PM
I can't wait for Ginn to catch a slant or screen, make some sick short area moves and shut some of you right up. If you had actually watched any tape on Ginn you will know that his cuts don't look that great because he is going so fast.

I'll leave you with a little question that you can have a look and go see at some games that he's played and give me the answer....Have you ever seen anyone make the kind of cuts Ginn makes at the speed he does them at?
Keep in mind I am including Bush and anyone else you want to have in this conversation.

Joeyjr09
05-13-2007, 08:59 PM
My question is why all the hate for Ginn. He Texans and Rams were all trying to take him withing the top 10-15 and the Dolphins got him at 9. There coaches are Cam Cameron, Gary Kubriak, and Scott Linehan. Those could possibly be the 3 best offensive minds in the entire NFL. I guess you all are right tho, Ginn just runs in a striaght line with alot of speed. Those coaches must be morons.

Please guys go watch Ginn play. Just because he isn't flashy does not mean he can't juke. Go watch tape of him, he is very subtle with his moves but he makes them without having to slow down at all. Just a quick chance of direction or angle and the defender wiffs and Ginn is gone.

DeSean Jackson put up 59 catches for about 1,000 yards for an 18 YPC average, a long of 62 and 9 TDS.

Ginn put up 59 receptions for about 800 yards, a 14 YPC average, a long of 58 and 9 TDS.

Say what you want about Jackson being better in a shorter area but his numbers show him to be a bigger deep threat then Ginn, while the rest of the stats are similar. I'm not trying to say Ginn is a better WR in the shorter rotutes because thats not true but Ginn is the more versitale player of the two and I consistently see him being put down for no reason. Fact of the matter is that Ginn's problems were overanalyized when he was coming out the same way Jacksons problems will be when he comes out.

Jackson seems to have a slightly smaller build then Ginn which is scary and hes gonna have just as much trouble getting off the press due to that small frame and Jackson is not gonna have as muc success going over the middle as he does in college. NFL defenders will make him pay for it and his body cant handle the punishment.

Ginn is a better player on screens and reverses then Jackson is and Ginn is a better playmaker in the return game, just not as flashy.

Can some one please tell me why they are so down on Ginn?

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
05-13-2007, 09:26 PM
I've seen him make plenty of people miss in short space over the last 3 years. I've never met a dude who gets off on dumping in other guys mouths. You must be one of those freaky f*ggots huh?

That's what you told me about a month ago, no?

Paranoidmoonduck
05-13-2007, 09:27 PM
I worry about Ginn. He has massive potential, but his long strides make running precise short routes with any real speed nearly impossible. It is going to be very easy for NFL corners to tell what kind of route he is going to run when he is going to have to jog basically anything but a deep flag/post or a 9 route. Unless someone can change his running style, something that is no small feat, he is going to be a #3 wideout at best. Today's defenses are built with the express intent of preventing the occurrence of another Bob Hayes.

Jackson is a much better receiver in my opinion. He fights with cornerbacks for the ball, something I'm not sure I've ever seen Ginn do, which gives him a ton more value in the deep ball department. He makes clean cuts and due to his shorter strides can run much quicker and more deceptive short routes.

Ginn has better top speed, is better at finding the hole on punt returns, and does an exceptional job at shifting his trajectory to make defenders miss him, but Jackson, in my opinion, has a much brighter future as an NFL player.

keylime_5
05-13-2007, 11:02 PM
All time big 10 record perhaps, not the NCAA record.

No, it is the NCAA record I am pretty sure.

Joeyjr09
05-13-2007, 11:10 PM
This is down right rediculous. Ginn is a long strider so suddenly he is going to be a number 3 wideout at best? Give me a break, who made you all experts. There's many offensive coordiators in the NFL that will disagree with you on that assessment.

Today's defenses are build with the intent to stop another Bob Hayes? Really, maybe they should try to build a defense that could stop Jerry Rice too. Thats rediculous to say that Ginn has to chance his running style completely in order to be a starter in the NFL. The dude was a top ten pick, he has the talent to be a starter and Pro Bowler in the NFL.

It's as simple as him learning the position better. If he can learn how to sell his routes better. He needs to learn to change his speed in and out of cuts and how use his explosiveness with better timing. That all comes with Route Running. You don't have to start by going all out full speed at the snap of the ball. You can slow down some on a hook and then suddenly with his speed, turn on the jets and go deep to turn the corner.

That's the stuff he hasn't learned yet. He goes full speed from the get go, if he runs fast thru his hook and then turns it up field, it'll be too quick for a defender to bite on the hook fake. if he slows it down, it'll look like he's settling into a zone to catch a pass and when the defender creeps up to cover him from the hook, then he can turn it upfield and beat the CB. He is not good at selling his routes. Thats something he will learn in time.

I just think its downright rediculous to say Jackson is gonna be a better WR and that Ginn is a number 3 based on long strides. I mean how much football do you actually watch? From a athletic standpoint, Ginn is a top 5 players in the entire draft and all he has to do is learn the ins and outs of the position. theres no reason why he can't be a game breaking number 2 WR that opens up the field, brings new elements such as reverses and screens and be the best return man in football.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-13-2007, 11:31 PM
This is down right rediculous. Ginn is a long strider so suddenly he is going to be a number 3 wideout at best? Give me a break, who made you all experts. There's many offensive coordiators in the NFL that will disagree with you on that assessment.

Show me one, full quote, saying otherwise. If not, shut it.

Today's defenses are build with the intent to stop another Bob Hayes? Really, maybe they should try to build a defense that could stop Jerry Rice too. Thats rediculous to say that Ginn has to chance his running style completely in order to be a starter in the NFL. The dude was a top ten pick, he has the talent to be a starter and Pro Bowler in the NFL.

So because Miami wanted a kick returner and didn't think Quinn was a great fit, Ginn is a great player? Come on, you can do better. And please learn a thing or two about NFL history before saying anything about defenses. Another Bob Hayes can literally not exist with zone defenses utilized league-wide.

It's as simple as him learning the position better. If he can learn how to sell his routes better. He needs to learn to change his speed in and out of cuts and how use his explosiveness with better timing. That all comes with Route Running. You don't have to start by going all out full speed at the snap of the ball. You can slow down some on a hook and then suddenly with his speed, turn on the jets and go deep to turn the corner.

That's the thing, Ginn has to completely lose all velocity when he makes a cut, and he doesn't accelerate all that quickly. He can improve his timing, but unless he learns to take shorter steps, he can't slow down and re-accelerate with the speed needed to fool NFL corners.

That's the stuff he hasn't learned yet. He goes full speed from the get go, if he runs fast thru his hook and then turns it up field, it'll be too quick for a defender to bite on the hook fake. if he slows it down, it'll look like he's settling into a zone to catch a pass and when the defender creeps up to cover him from the hook, then he can turn it upfield and beat the CB. He is not good at selling his routes. Thats something he will learn in time.

Again, he can learn to sell it better, but the speed with which he is able to sell it won't change unless he can take shorter, choppier steps.

I just think its downright rediculous to say Jackson is gonna be a better WR and that Ginn is a number 3 based on long strides. I mean how much football do you actually watch? From a athletic standpoint, Ginn is a top 5 players in the entire draft and all he has to do is learn the ins and outs of the position. theres no reason why he can't be a game breaking number 2 WR that opens up the field, brings new elements such as reverses and screens and be the best return man in football.

First off, I think Ginn's return ability is vastly overrated. He isn't a Devin Hester or Daunte Hall in terms of beating good coverage. What he can do is turn a good hole into a touchdown, but most good NFL returners can do exactly that. Ginn cannot create a fantastic return out of nothing.

As for the Jackson comparison, let's compare. Jackson has displayed better hands. Jackson has displayed better route running. Jackson has displayed better instincts at the position. Jackson has displayed better tenacity when going for the ball. Jackson's only shortcomings to Ginn are straight ahead speed, and that accounts for little in the NFL.


Ginn has the potential to be an amazing wideout, but I challenge you to name one wideout his size who had a sprinters stride who has succeeded in the NFL anytime recently. Please.

ironman4579
05-14-2007, 05:02 AM
No, it is the NCAA record I am pretty sure.

I would doubt it, since the record for punt return TD's in a career alone is 8, and I believe Ginn had 7 total TD's on punt and kickoff returns.

OhioState
05-14-2007, 05:58 AM
I think I just took a dump in your mouth. Ted Ginn isn't good in the short routes.

i think ted ginn took a dump in your mouth, he had what 200 yards recieving and running against you while Jeff the Trout had about two catches and 20 yards.

Iamcanadian
05-14-2007, 06:07 AM
Ginn has the potential to be an amazing wideout, but I challenge you to name one wideout his size who had a sprinters stride who has succeeded in the NFL anytime recently. Please.


Your argument is ridiculous. The guy was drafted at #9 and Houston drafting #10 wanted him as well. They obviously see a player with vast upside and potential for stardom. Is he a guaranteed success, obviously nobody carries that kind of guarantee, he's a bit raw but your critique of him is off the chart. Pro scouts, GM's and HC's obviously see the potential and that is why he went top 10. They don't view his stride as a concern.
Desean Jackson is listed at 6', 160 lbs, maybe he's that big but I'd bet he comes in at 5'10" and if he's lucky 160-170lbs. He could actually be lighter. You name me one WR in the NFL who has been successful at those measurements.

gobucks
05-14-2007, 09:44 AM
I would doubt it, since the record for punt return TD's in a career alone is 8, and I believe Ginn had 7 total TD's on punt and kickoff returns.

You're correct. Ginn has 6 punt return TDs in his career, 2 short of Welker's NCAA record of 8.

I haven't really seen Jackson play, so I can hardly compare the two, but I will say that while Ginn is still pretty raw I don't think the way he runs will prevent him from running NFL caliber routes. He gets knocked for not running good routes or routes across the middle, but he was rarely asked to run anything more complicated than a deep out pattern at OSU so it's kind of hard to tell. In all likelyhood it's not his strength, but those deep out patterns looked a lot crisper his junior season than his sophomore. If the Dolphin's staff can coach him up I think he can be at least a decent NFL route runner.

keylime_5
05-14-2007, 10:39 AM
Ginn has 6 PR touchdowns and 2 KR touchdowns (one againt florida and one against Minnesota in 2005, not to mention one that was called back against indiana for a penalty that didn't exist). Welker had 8 PR touchdowns and I don't think he had any KR ones. That's 8 and 8 meaning they tied which is exactly what I thought, I knew he tied somebody's record, apparently it was Welker. So he does hold the NCAA record, even though he's not the sole owner of it.

Acreboy
05-14-2007, 10:42 AM
I think what it comes down to is that Desean has more tools right now in this stage of the game than Ginn does and is a better all around prospect.

Vikes99ej
05-14-2007, 10:44 AM
Your argument is ridiculous. The guy was drafted at #9 and Houston drafting #10 wanted him as well. They obviously see a player with vast upside and potential for stardom. Is he a guaranteed success, obviously nobody carries that kind of guarantee, he's a bit raw but your critique of him is off the chart. Pro scouts, GM's and HC's obviously see the potential and that is why he went top 10. They don't view his stride as a concern.
Desean Jackson is listed at 6', 160 lbs, maybe he's that big but I'd bet he comes in at 5'10" and if he's lucky 160-170lbs. He could actually be lighter. You name me one WR in the NFL who has been successful at those measurements.

Steve Smith and Santana Moss say hello.

Acreboy
05-14-2007, 10:46 AM
Steve Smith and Santana Moss say hello.I'm sure they were in the 180's range.

keylime_5
05-14-2007, 10:48 AM
Marvin Harrison is about 5-11/188 too. Plus Jackson is only a true sophomore at 170 something, so he's probably still around 20 years old. He's still got some growing to do in the weightroom.

gobucks
05-14-2007, 11:02 AM
Hmm, according to the official NCAA record book (last year's http://www.ncaa.org/library/records/football/football_records_book/2006/2006_d1_football_records_book.pdf) the record for most combined kick return TDs (for which a player must have at least one punt and kickoff TD) is 8. Ginn shares that record with Cliff Branch, Colorado; Johnny Rodgers, Nebraska; Derek Abney, Kentucky; Chad Owens, Hawaii.

Turtlepower
05-14-2007, 11:26 AM
19.2 percent of all of DeSean Jackson's PR have gone for touchdowns (5), 4 of them coming last year. Ginn has had 6 PR for touchdowns in his career.

Also a little side note, the first pass that Jackson caught and the first punt that he returned turned into TDs.

OhioState
05-14-2007, 11:32 AM
19.2 percent of all of DeSean Jackson's PR have gone for touchdowns (5), 4 of them coming last year. Ginn has had 6 PR for touchdowns in his career.

Also a little side note, the first pass that Jackson caught and the first punt that he returned turned into TDs.

ginn only has one more year under his belt than jackson and once teams have had a chance to plan for him for a whole offseason his numbers will go down, he probably will have no more than 2-3 pr td's next season

keylime_5
05-14-2007, 11:45 AM
I think going into his junior year Ted Ginn's touchdowns were all from at least 48 yards out. Considering he had a lot of touchdowns that's saying something.

Going into the 2008 draft I think when everyone talks about Jackson they will compare him tremendously to Ted Ginn Jr. It should be interesting to see where he winds up.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-14-2007, 12:04 PM
Your argument is ridiculous. The guy was drafted at #9 and Houston drafting #10 wanted him as well. They obviously see a player with vast upside and potential for stardom. Is he a guaranteed success, obviously nobody carries that kind of guarantee, he's a bit raw but your critique of him is off the chart. Pro scouts, GM's and HC's obviously see the potential and that is why he went top 10. They don't view his stride as a concern.
Desean Jackson is listed at 6', 160 lbs, maybe he's that big but I'd bet he comes in at 5'10" and if he's lucky 160-170lbs. He could actually be lighter. You name me one WR in the NFL who has been successful at those measurements.

Let me get this straight.

You're using Ginn's draft position as a indicator of his quality as an NFL player and calling my ridiculous because I disagree, then assuming that DeSean Jackson is 2 inches shorter than he has been measured since high school and making gross assumptions about his weight?

gstock05
05-14-2007, 12:12 PM
Jackson right now is the sexy pick. Ginn is boring since he was already taken in the draft. Of course more people will take Jackson.

Next year if Jackson is taken 10th overall, people will be saying Percy Harvin is much better than Jackson.



I'll give you this much, Desean Jackson = Santonio Holmes. Same type of player, same type of speed, hands, maybe not quite the route runner of Holmes, but probably a bit better after the catch.


FWIW, Ted came in a terrible route runner, and went in 2 1/2 years from being a terrible route runner with bad hands, to an average route runner with good hands. I can't remember a dropped pass from him last season. Not hands of glue, but he doesn't drop anything easy.

People say he was only a straight line type of guy... they seem to forget that while he wasn't the guy you take over the middle on intermediate routes, Ted was thrown to at least 3 times a game real close to the LOS. Whether it was on a bubble screen, an out, or any other type of real close west coast style route, he was a terror to defensive backs on these types of passes. He would ALWAYS get at least 5-6 yards due to how far defensive backs had to play off him so they didnt get burned. Jackson doesn't have this advantage because he's not nearly the straight line deep threat Ginn was.

49erfanatic
05-14-2007, 02:04 PM
I can't wait for Ginn to catch a slant or screen, make some sick short area moves and shut some of you right up. If you had actually watched any tape on Ginn you will know that his cuts don't look that great because he is going so fast.

I'll leave you with a little question that you can have a look and go see at some games that he's played and give me the answer....Have you ever seen anyone make the kind of cuts Ginn makes at the speed he does them at?
Keep in mind I am including Bush and anyone else you want to have in this conversation.


You can't possibly be serious here. Maybe if Reggie Bush and LT each had both legs amputated you may have an arguement. Until then you may want to refrain from making any more embarrassing comments

keylime_5
05-14-2007, 04:53 PM
Well Tomlinson isn't as fast as Ginn and he's a RB so when he's going full speed he usually doesn't have to outjuke guys. Bush can make some darn good cuts at high speed in the return game, but his jukes are more like Barry Sanders than Ted Ginn. Ginn makes real smoothe jukes at full speed and is really fluid with it. Watch some tape of his returns and you'll see what I'm talking about. I don't think anyone can say anyone is better than Teddy at waht he can do on returns in terms of blowing by people and eluding tackles once he gets going

keylime_5
05-14-2007, 04:55 PM
I think gstock made a pretty good point earlier btw.
and the biggest difference between Jackson and Holmes is that Holmes is a very very good blocker for a WR with more crisp routes and hands than Jackson, who is more of an explosive guy ala Ginn compared to Santonio.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-14-2007, 04:56 PM
Well Tomlinson isn't as fast as Ginn and he's a RB so when he's going full speed he usually doesn't have to outjuke guys. Bush can make some darn good cuts at high speed in the return game, but his jukes are more like Barry Sanders than Ted Ginn. Ginn makes real smoothe jukes at full speed and is really fluid with it. Watch some tape of his returns and you'll see what I'm talking about. I don't think anyone can say anyone is better than Teddy at waht he can do on returns in terms of blowing by people and eluding tackles once he gets going

I think Ginn does a very good job adjusting his trajectory and he gets on defenders so quickly that they don't have time to adjust. He almost never actually does dramatic changes in direction like a Bush.

49erfanatic
05-14-2007, 05:12 PM
Well Tomlinson isn't as fast as Ginn and he's a RB so when he's going full speed he usually doesn't have to outjuke guys. Bush can make some darn good cuts at high speed in the return game, but his jukes are more like Barry Sanders than Ted Ginn. Ginn makes real smoothe jukes at full speed and is really fluid with it. Watch some tape of his returns and you'll see what I'm talking about. I don't think anyone can say anyone is better than Teddy at waht he can do on returns in terms of blowing by people and eluding tackles once he gets going

You're right, LT usually hits his holes very causually going 75% right? That's why he's so quick and elusive? (end of sarcasm) I really think we're arguing different points here. Ginn is a much different runner and does not have to deal with as much congestion as LT or Bush. I'm not bashing Ginn at all, in fact I think Ginn will be very good and I admire what he can do, but I don't really consider him a "cutter". I agree alot with what paranoidmoonduck is saying about his change of trajectories. A punt or kick return is much more spread out, both horizontally and vertically, and Ginn is very good at hitting a seem and then slightly changing his angle to outrun everybody, and he does do this at top speed. However, I don't really consider this to be a pure "cut". Bush and LT don't have the stride like Ginn so their ability to make cuts is in fact better, as they can cut quicker and more drastically then Ginn can. This is no diss on Ginn, its just that he runs in a different style, which because of his speed is very effective.

keylime_5
05-14-2007, 06:45 PM
LT certainly hits the hole with amazing burst making him the player he is, but he still is not going at speeds Ginn goes when he gets going with that long balanced stride of his. Comparing the two is a case of apples and oranges. But yes, Ginn's cuts are a little different from the kind of cuts you see Bush and Tomlinson making. I think those three guys are gonna be considered 3 of the biggest playmakers in the league a couple years down the road.

JoeSixPac
05-14-2007, 07:12 PM
gimme a break. Ginn was the best CB in the country by far coming out of High School. Ginn has been a WR for 3 years of his life and was a star at that position. Jackson has been a WR his whole life, so he's had about 12 years of playing the position probably. Ginn has made Leon Hall, Aaron Ross, and some other top corners look like fools. If you don't think Ginn is a football player then you are insane.

Aaron Ross was suspended for the game against Ohio State this year, if I'm not mistaken. If you were talking about the one last year or some other game disregard this post.

49erfanatic
05-14-2007, 07:13 PM
LT certainly hits the hole with amazing burst making him the player he is, but he still is not going at speeds Ginn goes when he gets going with that long balanced stride of his. Comparing the two is a case of apples and oranges. But yes, Ginn's cuts are a little different from the kind of cuts you see Bush and Tomlinson making. I think those three guys are gonna be considered 3 of the biggest playmakers in the league a couple years down the road.


Agreed. It might take Ginn a couple years to really show what he's capable of but I think that he's gonna be special. He has all the athletic ability in the world, and he will only continue to grow as a football player, much like he did at Ohio State.

draftguru151
05-14-2007, 07:50 PM
Aaron Ross was suspended for the game against Ohio State this year, if I'm not mistaken. If you were talking about the one last year or some other game disregard this post.

I think Brown missed that game, I know Ginn burnt Ross this year for a TD.

As for the 3 year/life thing, between his sophomore year and junior year Ginn did not improve that much as a receiver. The same complaints before the season still existed after the season. That shows either lack of trying (which I seriously doubt) or just lack of ability. His routes didn't improve much, and neither did his hands. That argument really does not make any sense to me. I saw a high school TE play OT last year after an offseason play better than an OT who was playing OT for a long time (Fox and Youngblood at Miami). It's not like he never played football. Catching and route running and fundamentals, I just don't buy the only playing WR for 3 year nonsense.

filthee
05-14-2007, 08:09 PM
I don't know where you people come up with some of this stuff. Ginn doesn't accelerate fast enough? Youtube his return against Indiana (4:27 in):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WGyrgqOKZLg

He comes to a near dead stop, cuts 90 degrees left then hits gear 7 in full stride, all in the span of about a second. It's unique and somewhat odd to see someone run like that in pads who's that much faster then everyone he's playing against.

Say what you want about his pure receiving skills, but I have seen only a slight few players, ever, with his football (in pads) speed, straightline or otherwise. He can pull a 4.29 short burst then open his stride up like a sprinter beyond that.

keylime_5
05-14-2007, 10:22 PM
Ginn's routes and hands improved a lot according to his coaches between his sophomore and junior years, draftguru. And unlike early in his career he didn't disappear against better corners so much. He definitely showed improvement and became the Bucks' #1 WR after playing with Santonio Holmes as the #1 his first 2 years.

And Joesixpac, it was tarrell brown suspended and not Ross. Not that it mattered because Texas apparently couldn't cover Gonzo, Ginn, or Robiskie in that game very well at all.

draftguru151
05-15-2007, 08:30 AM
Ginn's routes and hands improved a lot according to his coaches between his sophomore and junior years, draftguru. And unlike early in his career he didn't disappear against better corners so much. He definitely showed improvement and became the Bucks' #1 WR after playing with Santonio Holmes as the #1 his first 2 years.

And Joesixpac, it was tarrell brown suspended and not Ross. Not that it mattered because Texas apparently couldn't cover Gonzo, Ginn, or Robiskie in that game very well at all.

He improved but not a significant amount. All I heard before the season was "He's only been a WR for two years, his hands and routes will get better." Now all I'm hearing is "He's only been a WR for three years, his hands and routes will get better."

keylime_5
05-15-2007, 10:32 AM
Well you can't expect a guy to go from decent catcher and mediocre route runner to more than adequate catcher and good route runner in a year or two. It takes more time than that. And even if he doesn't develop anymore (which is wholly hypothetical) he would be a good 3rd receiver and a great KR at worst. Not a bad floor for a WR in the NFL. His ceiling is outta the roof though.

ironman4579
05-15-2007, 11:01 AM
Ginn has 6 PR touchdowns and 2 KR touchdowns (one againt florida and one against Minnesota in 2005, not to mention one that was called back against indiana for a penalty that didn't exist). Welker had 8 PR touchdowns and I don't think he had any KR ones. That's 8 and 8 meaning they tied which is exactly what I thought, I knew he tied somebody's record, apparently it was Welker. So he does hold the NCAA record, even though he's not the sole owner of it.

You kind of made it sound like he actually held the record, not that he was tied for it though, but that's splitting hairs. Actually, I realize why I thought Ginn only had 7 total return TD's. Some websites don't include bowl game stats in their stats for a player. Since Ginn scored his 8th TD in the NC game this year, alot of sites had him listed with 6 PR TD's and 1 KR TD.

ironman4579
05-15-2007, 11:03 AM
Aaron Ross was suspended for the game against Ohio State this year, if I'm not mistaken. If you were talking about the one last year or some other game disregard this post.

It was Brown that was suspended. Ross played.

P-L
05-15-2007, 11:54 AM
Someone once said that if DeSean Jackson and Ted Ginn switched college teams then Jackson would be considered the superior player. That's not necessarily my opinion, just thought I'd throw that out there.