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View Full Version : Will Smith or Osi Umenyiora?


Flyboy
05-14-2007, 05:35 PM
I don't usually make threads like this because Lord knows the board is packed with them, but I was curious to see how some of the posters viewed two of up and coming DE's in the league. I'm not going to make a poll or anything, but just was seeking some good discussion about the issue. So, commence!

Space Ghost
05-14-2007, 05:43 PM
Personally, I take Will Smith. He is an animal on the field. He is more of a force against the run than Umenyiora from what I have seen, and I have seen a lot more of Will than Osi. Smith also has less injury concerns than Osi for this plain and simple reason:

"I have officially declared myself...the best defensive end in the NFL, To prove this...I will have one of the best seasons ever for a defensive end. If not, I will jump off the George Washington Bridge. I do not want to jump off the George Washington Bridge because it will be detrimental to my health."

remix 6
05-14-2007, 05:44 PM
Will Smith.

SeanTaylorRIP
05-14-2007, 05:44 PM
"I have officially declared myself...the best defensive end in the NFL, To prove this...I will have one of the best seasons ever for a defensive end. If not, I will jump off the George Washington Bridge. I do not want to jump off the George Washington Bridge because it will be detrimental to my health."

Did he really say that?

Flyboy
05-14-2007, 05:45 PM
Did he really say that?

If so, it's nearly sig-worthy.

scottyboy
05-14-2007, 05:46 PM
he did say it, and he's hilarious. I love Osi, my favorite player in the NFL. Also i think he likes to be called by his proper name, Chief Osi.

edit: I may use that quote in my sig + my 800th post on my favorite NFL player!! :)

draftguru151
05-14-2007, 05:47 PM
Osi is a better and more productive DE than Julius Peppers.

Where is number10?

Sorry, I had to.

SaintsMan
05-14-2007, 05:47 PM
Most will probably pick Osi Umenyiora, since he's more known and 2006 was Smiths first year as a starter.

SeanTaylorRIP
05-14-2007, 05:49 PM
Just for that Osi quote, he is #2 on my list behind Joakim Noah in front of Tim Duncan.

bearsfan_51
05-14-2007, 05:54 PM
I like Osi. I don't have him rated as high as Number10, but I have him a lot higher than most do.

Will Smith is good too, I wanted him in 2004 if Tommie Harris wasn't around (thankfully he was), but I'm gonna stick with Osi, and would up against almost any DE not named Peppers.

Go_Eagles77
05-14-2007, 05:57 PM
I pick

http://images.easyart.com/i/prints/rw/lg/2/3/Celebrity-Image-Will-Smith-230170.jpg

errr...

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41135000/jpg/_41135860_smith.jpg

There we go. :)

remix 6
05-14-2007, 06:02 PM
Most will probably pick Osi Umenyiora, since he's more known and 2006 was Smiths first year as a starter.

was it? he had 40 tackles then 60 tackles aswell as 7.5 sacks followed by 8.5

says he played all 16 games but i thought he was a starter or was Darren Howard and Grant ahead of him?

SaintsMan
05-14-2007, 06:07 PM
was it? he had 40 tackles then 60 tackles aswell as 7.5 sacks followed by 8.5

says he played all 16 games but i thought he was a starter or was Darren Howard and Grant ahead of him?

2004 30 Tackles, 10 Assists, 7.5 Sacks, 6 Forced Fumbles
2005 48 Tackles, 12 Assists, 8.5 Sacks, 2 Forced Fumbles

Both years, Will Smith was the back-up to Charles Grant and Darren Howard. Smith did rotate with Howard often.

bored of education
05-14-2007, 06:10 PM
Jared Allen on the 12 step program.

GiantRutgersFan
05-14-2007, 06:25 PM
Osi is a better and more productive DE than Will Smith.

The Unseen
05-14-2007, 06:33 PM
If so, it's nearly sig-worthy.

To me, it is.

SaintsMan
05-14-2007, 06:36 PM
Osi is a better and more productive DE than Will Smith.

Osi Umenyiora has 125 Tackles, 54 Assists, 28.5 Sacks, 8 Passes Defended, and 9 Forced Fumbles in 56 games played.

Will Smith has 109 Tackles, 40 Assists, 26.5 Sacks, 9 Passes Defended, and 11 Forced Fumbles in 46 games played.

Jughead10
05-14-2007, 06:38 PM
Osi really is an Nigerian Cheif I believe. I like Will Smith a lot. I really think they are pretty even. Osi was on par for another monster season until he got hurt last year. And when he came back it was obvious that he wasn't 100%.

Jughead10
05-14-2007, 06:39 PM
Osi Umenyiora has 125 Tackles, 54 Assists, 28.5 Sacks, 8 Passes Defended, and 9 Forced Fumbles in 56 games played.

Will Smith has 109 Tackles, 40 Assists, 26.5 Sacks, 9 Passes Defended, and 11 Forced Fumbles in 46 games played.

Eh, Osi played in 13 games his rookie season of which he saw basically only time on special teams until the last two games of the season.

bigbluedefense
05-14-2007, 06:45 PM
I like Osi. I don't have him rated as high as Number10, but I have him a lot higher than most do.

Will Smith is good too, I wanted him in 2004 if Tommie Harris wasn't around (thankfully he was), but I'm gonna stick with Osi, and would up against almost any DE not named Peppers.

I am quite surprised that you were able to say that about a Giant player. Usually, you pull a Flloyd Mayweather and jab and juke so we can't hit ya back.

But in all seriousness, I have a feeling this thread will get ugly. But I agree with BF51, if you actually watch Osi play, you'd see that there aren't many in the league that are better.

Thats taking nothing away from Will Smith, as I feel he's also a great upcoming DE, and I would love to have either on my team. But I like Osi a lil bit more.

Will Smith is almost like Osi Part 2...although I think Osi is a little bit faster, with equal strength. Osi I think has more potential standing up in a rushbacker role as well. He also plays with better technique, although slightly. Its close. But I think all homerism aside, Osi is slightly better.

jkpigskin
05-14-2007, 06:53 PM
im a big fan of both
dont see to much of either team so i cant really decifer but both have bright futures

bigbluedefense
05-14-2007, 06:53 PM
And by the way guys, that Osi quote....thats how he is.

He's a jokester and was saying it as a joke. He's the one who came up with the whole "ballin" thing. Don't take it to the titty.

Jughead10
05-14-2007, 06:54 PM
And by the way guys, that Osi quote....thats how he is.

He's a jokester and was saying it as a joke. He's the one who came up with the whole "ballin" thing. Don't take it to the titty.

I thought Strahan came up with "ballin".

scottyboy
05-14-2007, 06:55 PM
Osi is just a funny guy. He had his locker put next to the mirror lol, thats just how he is! plus he has an elevator in his house!!! i'm actually going to his house this summer!!!!

bigbluedefense
05-14-2007, 06:58 PM
I thought Strahan came up with "ballin".

No, Osi did

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-enSSCM8qDs

Flyboy
05-14-2007, 07:04 PM
And by the way guys, that Osi quote....thats how he is.

He's a jokester and was saying it as a joke. He's the one who came up with the whole "ballin" thing. Don't take it to the titty.

Actually, Jim Jones did. :)

The Unseen
05-14-2007, 07:04 PM
No, Osi did

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-enSSCM8qDs

Actually, Bobby McCray did.

http://www.nbcsports.com/marcelluswiley/blog/2006/11/a_celebration_good_vs_evil_1.html

;)

ricky bobby
05-14-2007, 07:35 PM
"I have officially declared myself, Chief Osi Umenyiora, the best defensive end in the NFL," he read. "To prove this fact, I will have one of the best seasons ever for a defensive end. If not, I will jump off the George Washington Bridge. I do not want to jump off the George Washington Bridge because it will be detrimental to my health."

- Osi Umenyiora a couple weeks back

Case closed

Go_Eagles77
05-14-2007, 07:37 PM
"I have officially declared myself, Chief Osi Umenyiora, the best defensive end in the NFL," he read. "To prove this fact, I will have one of the best seasons ever for a defensive end. If not, I will jump off the George Washington Bridge. I do not want to jump off the George Washington Bridge because it will be detrimental to my health."

- Osi Umenyiora a couple weeks back

Case closed

Did you read the 1st page?

ricky bobby
05-14-2007, 07:38 PM
Did you read the 1st page?
Skimmed it over. Time is money.

bearsfan_51
05-14-2007, 07:39 PM
I am quite surprised that you were able to say that about a Giant player. Usually, you pull a Flloyd Mayweather and jab and juke so we can't hit ya back.
I have nothing against the Giants, I just don't think they'll be very good.

Any team that can beat the Cowboys twice a year is ok with me.

draftguru151
05-14-2007, 07:42 PM
Osi reminds me a lot of Jason Taylor. He has a great first step and very good quickness, but is also very good against the run. Will Smith is very good, but Osi is slightly above him.

skinzzfan25
05-14-2007, 08:06 PM
http://www.dufflove.com/images/fresh-prince_324x218.jpg

PACKmanN
05-14-2007, 08:10 PM
Will Smith, he just keeps on getting better while Osi is always having an up and down season.

ny10804
05-14-2007, 08:11 PM
Just curious, where would people rank Aaron Kampman between Osi and Smith? Above, below, or in the middle?

Woody56
05-14-2007, 08:16 PM
Just curious, where would people rank Aaron Kampman between Osi and Smith? Above, below, or in the middle?

above both

Ravens1991
05-14-2007, 08:21 PM
Just out of pure wonder, were do you all rate Terrell Suggs with Osi and Will Smith?

bearsfan_51
05-14-2007, 08:23 PM
Just curious, where would people rank Aaron Kampman between Osi and Smith? Above, below, or in the middle?

I'd like to see another year out of Kampman like that. Not to say that I think it was a fluke year, but he was a full starter for a few years prior and he never had anything close to last year.

ny10804
05-14-2007, 08:27 PM
I'd like to see another year out of Kampman like that. Not to say that I think it was a fluke year, but he was a full starter for a few years prior and he never had anything close to last year.

He has always been a force against the run, but yeah, he went up 9 sacks from '05 to '06 - very strange. The increase was mostly because he lost about 15 pounds during the '06 offseason. Oddly enough it didn't hamper his run-stopping ability, as he also had a career high in tackles.

remix 6
05-14-2007, 09:14 PM
Just out of pure wonder, were do you all rate Terrell Suggs with Osi and Will Smith?

my 3nd best DE :)

1. Peppers
2. Seymour
3. Suggs

Bengals1690
05-14-2007, 09:17 PM
will smith went to OSU, right? ill take him.

23trufant
05-14-2007, 09:18 PM
I would say Will Smith, though I love both.

ricky bobby
05-14-2007, 09:21 PM
Smith went to a HS near mine, but i'll still take Osi.

remix 6
05-14-2007, 09:24 PM
Osi isnt even the best DE on his team

1. Strahan
2. Tuck
3. Kiwanuka, though he moved to LB
4. ...
5...
6. OSI

ricky bobby
05-14-2007, 09:28 PM
Osi isnt even the best DE on his team

1. Strahan
2. Tuck
3. Sinorice Moss
4. ... Eli Manning
5... Brandon Jacobs
6. OSI

Minor Changes.

remix 6
05-14-2007, 09:36 PM
Minor Changes.

how could i forget Eli. the fastest..strongest..toughest player of them all

keylime_5
05-14-2007, 09:59 PM
Will Smith could be a base end in a 4-3, a rush end in a 4-3, or an OLB in a 3-4. He is quite a complete defensive end and he'll probably make at least 5 pro bowls in his career.

Shiver
05-14-2007, 10:20 PM
I would take Will Smith, but that's just me.

Ewing
05-14-2007, 10:57 PM
Now this is the story all about how,
My life got flipped, turned upside down,
And I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there,
I'll tell you how I became the prince of a town called Bel Air.

In West Philadelphia I was born and raised
On the playground is where I spent most of my days.
Chillin' out, maxin', relaxin all cool,
And all shootin' some b-ball outside of the school.

When a couple of guys who were up to no good,
Started makin' trouble in my neighborhood.
I got in one little fight and my mom got scared,
And said "You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in bel Air."

I whistled for a cab, and when it came near,
The license plate said "fresh" and it had dice in the mirror.
If anything I could say that this cat was rare,
But I thought "Nah forget it, Yo home to Bel Air."

I pulled up to the house about seven or eight,
and I yelled to the cabby "Yo homes, smell ya later."
Looked at my kingdom, I was finally there,
To sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel Air.

sodar21
05-14-2007, 11:03 PM
I'd like to see another year out of Kampman like that. Not to say that I think it was a fluke year, but he was a full starter for a few years prior and he never had anything close to last year.

Wasn't Kampman the best DE against the run and pass last year. I remember looking at something that he had the most sacks, most pressures/most knockdowns in the league as well as the most tackles for a DE.

Number 10
05-14-2007, 11:18 PM
What people don't realize about Osi is how good he is against the run. Yes, he is a speed rusher that can beat anyone off the edge...but he has developed strength in the upper and lower half to toss linemen around and make a stop.

If Osi avoids the injuries to the lower half this season, he'll have a huge year. And for those that need to pick on someone...Yes I do still believe he is better than Peppers.

Acreboy
05-14-2007, 11:25 PM
Osi is a better and more productive DE than Will Smith.Well, we all know you're a flaming homer.

cardsalltheway
05-15-2007, 12:30 AM
Well, we all know you're a flaming homer.

You're one to talk Mr. "Dwayne Bowe is a better all-around player than Calvin Johnson"

BUSTKUNTLAWL
05-15-2007, 12:37 AM
Mark Anderson

bearsfan_51
05-15-2007, 06:53 AM
Wasn't Kampman the best DE against the run and pass last year. I remember looking at something that he had the most sacks, most pressures/most knockdowns in the league as well as the most tackles for a DE.
It's very likely. He had a tremendous year last year. I just want to see him do something even close to that again. His first two years as a starter were pretty average and then he exploded last year.

Jughead10
05-15-2007, 07:45 AM
Will Smith could be a base end in a 4-3, a rush end in a 4-3, or an OLB in a 3-4.

And Osi can't?

bigbluedefense
05-15-2007, 10:43 AM
Ooooooooo, Number 10 is stirring the pot....



I don't know if Will Smith would be as good of a rushbacker as Osi would. Osi has better lateral movement and better speed. Smith plays a little stiffer than Osi. Ive been saying for awhile now, I think Osi would be an even better rushbacker than he is a DE, which is scary. You saw it with Jason Taylor this year. He's way too athletic and instinctual to be just a DE. I think Osi has Jason Taylor potential.

As far as Kapman goes, I need to see another season. He was amazing this year, but another season is needed for me to put him up there. He did play great though. I don't think he's the best run stuffing end however. Guys like Strahan, Seymour, and Jason Taylor come to mind ahead of him.

You know who doesn't get enough love? Schloebel and Burgess. Both these guys have been very solid the past 2 years and barely ever get mentioned.

Addict
05-15-2007, 11:09 AM
You know who doesn't get enough love? Schloebel and Burgess. Both these guys have been very solid the past 2 years and barely ever get mentioned.

that's what happens when you have good players playing for teams that don't do well... Too bad for them.... Didn't Burgess demand a new contract earlier this year?

Jughead10
05-15-2007, 11:10 AM
Did Burgess play the run better in '06? Cause I know he couldn't at all in '05.

bigbluedefense
05-15-2007, 11:15 AM
Burgess isn't the best against the run, but he's better than Freeney, yet he gets way less pub than Freeney does. I think he'll slowly improve in the area of run stuffing, and he'll make more strides this year. In my limited view of him this year, he didn't seem that bad against the run, so I dunno.

Jughead10
05-15-2007, 11:17 AM
Don't get me started on Freeney. I've always said he is the most overrated player in the NFL.

BlindSite
05-15-2007, 06:31 PM
Yes I do still believe he is better than Peppers.

Sillybear, no DE in the NFL is better than Peppers.

He's better against the run than he is against the pass and he still gets held, or double teamed or cut at the line on every passing play, despite being run at all day and he just eats it up and asks for more.

Osi is a good defensive end, probably top 10 in the league, but better than Peppers? No way in hell.

BlindSite
05-15-2007, 06:37 PM
Osi Umenyiora has 125 Tackles, 54 Assists, 28.5 Sacks, 8 Passes Defended, and 9 Forced Fumbles in 56 games played.

Will Smith has 109 Tackles, 40 Assists, 26.5 Sacks, 9 Passes Defended, and 11 Forced Fumbles in 46 games played.

Julius Peppers has 203 Tackles, 47 Assists, 53.5 sacks, 3 INTs, 26 passes defended and 17 forced fumbles in 76 games.

Osi would have to average over a sack a game to catch him in that stat, let alone the passes and fumbles, tackles he would probably get there, but RDE's always have more tackles than LDEs, its only normal.

scottyboy
05-15-2007, 06:40 PM
Osi Umenyiora has 125 Tackles, 54 Assists, 28.5 Sacks, 8 Passes Defended, and 9 Forced Fumbles in 56 games played.

Will Smith has 109 Tackles, 40 Assists, 26.5 Sacks, 9 Passes Defended, and 11 Forced Fumbles in 46 games played.

Julius Peppers has 203 Tackles, 47 Assists, 53.5 sacks, 3 INTs, 26 passes defended and 17 forced fumbles in 76 games.

Osi would have to average over a sack a game to catch him in that stat, let alone the passes and fumbles, tackles he would probably get there, but RDE's always have more tackles than LDEs, its only normal.

you must take into consideration that Osi was a special teams player in most of his first years games, was hurt last year, also had strahan hurt, forcing major double teams, while pepper had Rucker. Not saying Peppers isnt great, but these stats really dont say much. Plus peppers is a great athlete, so is Osi but Julius is a freak, and better in coverage, hence the more pass deflections

BlindSite
05-15-2007, 06:42 PM
I just get pissed when people say anyone is better than Peppers, no player at any position in the league is game planned as much as teams game plan for him.

No one, not Peyton, not LT, not Brady, not Taylor, no one.

SaintsMan
05-15-2007, 06:51 PM
Peppers is the best DE in the game and is often double and trimple teamed, but he also has an inconsistant motor.

Phrost
05-15-2007, 06:54 PM
I saw him play at OSU, total beast. Saw him get drafted to a divisional rival...still a total beast. Seriously though if you really think that Osi is a better player, then you need to watch some more film.

draftguru151
05-15-2007, 06:54 PM
I just get pissed when people say anyone is better than Peppers, no player at any position in the league is game planned as much as teams game plan for him.

No one, not Peyton, not LT, not Brady, not Taylor, no one.

I really find that hard to believe, only for the fact that Peppers is pretty much always in the same spot before the snap. Does he get double teamed a ridiculous amount? Yes, but teams don't really have to game plan a ridiculous amount for him because he is always at LE. Jason Taylor for example, plays DE on both sides, plays OLB on both sides, plays ILB, blitzes, plays man, drops into zones, teams have to game plan a lot more for that because one guy does so much.

Phrost
05-15-2007, 06:55 PM
I just get pissed when people say anyone is better than Peppers, no player at any position in the league is game planned as much as teams game plan for him.

No one, not Peyton, not LT, not Brady, not Taylor, no one.

OK ok, thats going toooo far, all of those players except Taylor are game planned as much or more than Peppers.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 06:58 PM
I just get pissed when people say anyone is better than Peppers, no player at any position in the league is game planned as much as teams game plan for him.

No one, not Peyton, not LT, not Brady, not Taylor, no one.

I love Peppers, but that's a hyperbole. Hell, Vick & maybe even Bush gets more preparation than Peppers does.

Shiver
05-15-2007, 07:12 PM
I just get pissed when people say anyone is better than Peppers, no player at any position in the league is game planned as much as teams game plan for him.

No one, not Peyton, not LT, not Brady, not Taylor, no one.

I think Peppers is the best DE in the game, right now. But that claim is outrageous, and I would very much like a source that corroborates that statement.

Phrost
05-15-2007, 07:14 PM
I think Peppers is the best DE in the game, right now. But that claim is outrageous, and I would very much like a source that corroborates that statement.

So Shiver does your sig represent a desire for Brohm? Release Vick after this year? Trade?

BlindSite
05-15-2007, 07:32 PM
I think Peppers is the best DE in the game, right now. But that claim is outrageous, and I would very much like a source that corroborates that statement.

My goddamn eyes.

Flyboy
05-15-2007, 07:35 PM
My goddamn eyes.

You're saying that teams plan more for Peppers than say.. a Michael Vick? Or to a lesser extent a Reggie Bush? Peppers is tremendous, but please stop the homerism.

TheChampIsHere
05-15-2007, 07:36 PM
yeah both are great young DEs...Will Smith plays the run a little better, Osi rushes the passer a little better. Theyre both rising stars.

Ewing
05-15-2007, 07:54 PM
Yes I do still believe he is better than Peppers.

I-... You know what I can't even come up with a response to something that dumb.

sodar21
05-15-2007, 08:14 PM
Osi Umenyiora has 125 Tackles, 54 Assists, 28.5 Sacks, 8 Passes Defended, and 9 Forced Fumbles in 56 games played.

Will Smith has 109 Tackles, 40 Assists, 26.5 Sacks, 9 Passes Defended, and 11 Forced Fumbles in 46 games played.

Julius Peppers has 203 Tackles, 47 Assists, 53.5 sacks, 3 INTs, 26 passes defended and 17 forced fumbles in 76 games.

Osi would have to average over a sack a game to catch him in that stat, let alone the passes and fumbles, tackles he would probably get there, but RDE's always have more tackles than LDEs, its only normal.

First three years:

Willi Smith has 149 tackles, 26.5 sacks, 11 forced fumbles and 9 passes deflected.

Julius Peppers has 143 tackles, 30 sacks, 12 forced fumbles and 14 passes deflected.

Not a huge difference. Plus Smith wasn't starting his rookie season.

draftguru151
05-15-2007, 08:47 PM
Ugh, the summer homerism is beginning already.

bigbluedefense
05-15-2007, 11:19 PM
*grabs popcorn*

Green Bay Scat
05-16-2007, 12:27 AM
I like chicken, i like liver, meow mix meow mix, please deliver. I like smith more, but its still to early

Moses
05-16-2007, 12:45 AM
I just get pissed when people say anyone is better than Peppers, no player at any position in the league is game planned as much as teams game plan for him.

No one, not Peyton, not LT, not Brady, not Taylor, no one.

Completely ridiculous statement. Arguments can be made that other DEs in the league are better than Peppers. Even if Peppers was head and shoulders above other DEs, he doesn't demand near the preperation of some offensive players.

Jughead10
05-16-2007, 07:38 AM
Completely ridiculous statement. Arguments can be made that other DEs in the league are better than Peppers. Even if Peppers was head and shoulders above other DEs, he doesn't demand near the preperation of some offensive players.

Agreed. As good as Peppers is, I have seen him dissappear and be a complete non-factor in games before. That is never the case with Payton Manning or LT.

I'mAHustler
05-16-2007, 08:20 AM
First three years:

Willi Smith has 149 tackles, 26.5 sacks, 11 forced fumbles and 9 passes deflected.

Julius Peppers has 143 tackles, 30 sacks, 12 forced fumbles and 14 passes deflected.

Not a huge difference. Plus Smith wasn't starting his rookie season.Your ignorance may be your only saving grace as it is not possible for a person to watch both players to compare their athletic talents and honestly say Will Smith deserves a cough besides Julius Peppers name being mentioned.

Number 10
05-16-2007, 09:55 AM
Peppers is so overrated and is a prime example of fans falling in love with measurables. If he played up to the caliber of his athleticism than he would be a beast, but he simply doesn't.

bigbluedefense
05-16-2007, 10:02 AM
Peppers is so overrated and is a prime example of fans falling in love with measurables. If he played up to the caliber of his athleticism than he would be a beast, but he simply doesn't.

Thats my main issue with him. He should be better than he is. If he doesn't work on that technique, he'll have a poor 2nd half of his career when that athleticism starts to fade.


I think most people here base their opinions on how great he is in Madden. I seriously do. I remember last offseason people compared him to Reggie White. Smh....

Bengals1690
05-16-2007, 10:13 AM
peppers is a beast. he still the nummber one defensive end in my book. Osi has the benefit of Micheal Strahan on the other sidae and he can't get doubled as much. I still belive peppers is the best defensive player in the game as of now.

Jughead10
05-16-2007, 10:14 AM
peppers is a beast. he still the nummber one defensive end in my book. Osi has the benefit of Micheal Strahan on the other sidae and he can't get doubled as much. I still belive peppers is the best defensive player in the game as of now.

No way. Urlacher is the best defensive player in the game hands down. I'd also put Champ Bailey ahead of Peppers.

Bengals1690
05-16-2007, 10:20 AM
No way. Urlacher is the best defensive player in the game hands down. I'd also put Champ Bailey ahead of Peppers.

you could make a case for all three. But if i caould choose any defensive player right now to make a team, i would take Peppers. Peppers can straight take over the trenches.

bigbluedefense
05-16-2007, 10:21 AM
Id take Shawne Merriman, if he can sustain his dominance after being off roids.

Ewing
05-16-2007, 10:21 AM
Peppers is so overrated and is a prime example of fans falling in love with measurables.

You could say the same thing about Giants fans and Osi.

Jughead10
05-16-2007, 10:24 AM
you could make a case for all three. But if i caould choose any defensive player right now to make a team, i would take Peppers. Peppers can straight take over the trenches.

He also straight dissapears from his share of games. Something Urlacher never does. And when Bailey disspears from a game, it actually can be considered a good thing.

sodar21
05-16-2007, 11:12 AM
Your ignorance may be your only saving grace as it is not possible for a person to watch both players to compare their athletic talents and honestly say Will Smith deserves a cough besides Julius Peppers name being mentioned.

It would do you well to actually read this thread before responding. I was merely using the same sort of statistics that the previous poster had used. Its time for you to calm down and read.

bored of education
05-16-2007, 11:15 AM
Osi-NYG
SMith- Alum of tOSU

so obvi-Smith

Number 10
05-16-2007, 12:04 PM
You could say the same thing about Giants fans and Osi.

Not true. Osi's measurables really aren't anything to write home about, they are above average, yes, but nothing close to that of Peppers. Osi gets the most out of his size/speed/strength but Peppers doesn't.

Vikes99ej
05-16-2007, 12:48 PM
I'll take Umenyiora. And I'll just ignore all of this talk of Osi being better than Peppers.

Phrost
05-16-2007, 02:36 PM
Id take Shawne Merriman, if he can sustain his dominance after being off roids.

I would have to agree. When you are getting compared to LT(The real LT) then you are a force to be reckoned with.

Ravens1991
05-16-2007, 05:21 PM
Yea like BBD said, if Merriman can improve coverage wise he can go down as a all time great.

fenikz
05-16-2007, 05:46 PM
Will Smith

BlindSite
05-16-2007, 05:54 PM
Peppers is so overrated and is a prime example of fans falling in love with measurables. If he played up to the caliber of his athleticism than he would be a beast, but he simply doesn't.

His measurables weren't all that rediculously amazing considering he plays faster and stronger than he has been recorded at on paper. If you watched him play for more than one or two games a season you'd know that.

He's got the ability to take over a game and has done so in the past. He sees a double team on every play, if he's not double teamed he's chipped at the line or he's held, every play he's one on one and the lineman doesn't decide to cheat he's reaching the quarterback.

You might not know this, but every officiating crew in the NFL has a brief written about them, so that coaches can instruct their players on certain things, like "these guys aren't big on holding penalties" or "these guys never miss a false start" so they know when they can hold or not, more often than not, when a refereeing crew is known to allowing holding Peppers just about gets bear hugged. I take notes when I watch games, because I write for panthershuddle. When I do, about half the snaps I watch Peppers, almost all of them will have a h, or a dt, for holding or double team.

Osi rarely sees the double team, same with Will Smith because of the players they have on their other side and the fact that they're on the weak side.

Face it, what we're comparing here, is a player who's given 100% of the offensive protection schemes attention during games because he's so damn good and the player on his other side is around the league average and two guys who've got better defensive ends on the other end of their defensive line and see a lot less double team blocks...

Peppers has better stats than them both despite receiving the attention he does and being on the other side, the more watched and schemed for side...

Thats my main issue with him. He should be better than he is. If he doesn't work on that technique, he'll have a poor 2nd half of his career when that athleticism starts to fade.
I think most people here base their opinions on how great he is in Madden. I seriously do. I remember last offseason people compared him to Reggie White. Smh....

See the above, he does play up to his athleticism he flat out takes over games, did you happen to see carolina vs cleveland last year? Or his performance against Minnesota?

Yea like BBD said, if Merriman can improve coverage wise he can go down as a all time great.

If he decides to stop using anabolic steroids.

scottyboy
05-16-2007, 06:21 PM
i see Merriman as almost like Bonds(definately not that much and not really comparing,just hear me out) Merriman has obvious talent, i dont like the guy but admit it. Bonds had some talent(not as much as Shawne) but still some talent in Pit. But then he broke records, but the steroids cloud puts an * next to his name. I feel the same thing will happen to Shawne.

oh, and he's not the next LT at all. LT changed the game of football and is the best defensive player of all time

Jughead10
05-16-2007, 06:31 PM
See the above, he does play up to his athleticism he flat out takes over games, did you happen to see carolina vs cleveland last year? Or his performance against Minnesota?

Did you see him against St. Louis? New Orleans? the Giants? It works both ways. I agree Peppers could be better. He either dominates or dissappears. He needs more consistency.

BlindSite
05-16-2007, 06:48 PM
New Orleans? Are you kidding me? Did you watch the first game, he was the reason we won, him and Thomas Davis were lights out.

Jughead10
05-16-2007, 07:03 PM
They play New Orleans twice every year don't they?

Shiver
05-16-2007, 07:04 PM
Did you see him against St. Louis? New Orleans? the Giants? It works both ways. I agree Peppers could be better. He either dominates or dissappears. He needs more consistency.

That's the way with every DE in the league. Especially if you judge "consistency" with raw statistics.

BlindSite
05-16-2007, 07:06 PM
Agreed, there's just going to be days where every running play is run at a guy like Julius Peppers and then every passing play there'll be two players dedicated to him.

The same thing happens with John Abraham and Freeney.

Jughead10
05-16-2007, 07:07 PM
That's the way with every DE in the league. Especially if you judge "consistency" with raw statistics.

Peppers dissappears quite a lot for someone who is clearly "the best at his position" and the "best defensive player in the NFL". You know that. He often just doesn't show up. Just about as much as he dominates.

Jughead10
05-16-2007, 07:07 PM
Agreed, there's just going to be days where every running play is run at a guy like Julius Peppers and then every passing play there'll be two players dedicated to him.

The same thing happens with John Abraham and Freeney.

If I'm trying to prove a point I wouldn't compare Peppers to Freeney or Abraham.

ricky bobby
05-16-2007, 07:12 PM
Jalapeno Peppers are very spicey. Don't underestimate them.

BlindSite
05-16-2007, 07:24 PM
Peppers dissappears quite a lot for someone who is clearly "the best at his position" and the "best defensive player in the NFL". You know that. He often just doesn't show up. Just about as much as he dominates.

You're looking at this the wrong way.

Statistically yes, he's very up and down. However, that fact imo is testament to his dominance, and hear me out.

When Peppers is shut down, it takes two men to do it. I don't think that's a homeristic statement. Anyone who watches Peppers play will tell you that. If he's receiving so much attention it allows Jenkins, Kemoeatu and Rucker to be more effective.

Not only that, but having him so strongly targeted frees up Thomas Davis immensely, notice that when against St Louis and against New York, when Peppers stats were poor TD had amazing days, with 10 total tackles and some passes defensed. Reason being, the guy wasn't blocked out of plays, he didn't have to fight through traffic, the reason being, Peppers was being stopped by his man, and Davis's man.

Peppers might not always have his name up in lights statistically, but whenever he's locked down, someone else receives no attention at all and lights it up big time.

Against New York Thomas Davis has 7 total tackles 3 of those were TFLs.

Against St Louis Thomas Davis had 10 total tackles and 1.5 sacks for the year his stats were great:

88 Total Tackles, 1.5 sacks and 6 passes defenced, thats good production for a linebacker in his first year at the position, playing on the strong side, where traditionally they receive a lot of attention.

His numbers have far outstripped anyone we've had in that position for every year in John Fox's system. Our SLBs traditionally don't get a lot of tackles, TD had one third more than Brandon short did in any year he was at the strong side for us.

Number 10
05-16-2007, 07:35 PM
I just watched the Giants-Panthers game tape. Are you sure you want to say Peppers gets doubled or chipped on "every play"? You may want to take it back because Peppers was close to being doubled or chipped just as much as he was signle teamed by a 2nd string LT and he still did not have much of an impact on the game. I was at that game and I found it ironic to hear what some Panthers fans said about him.

Number 10
05-16-2007, 07:37 PM
Oh and I forgot to mention....Osi saw more double teams than Strahan did when they were both on the field at the same time on running plays this past season.

BlindSite
05-16-2007, 07:52 PM
I just watched the Giants-Panthers game tape. Are you sure you want to say Peppers gets doubled or chipped on "every play"? You may want to take it back because Peppers was close to being doubled or chipped just as much as he was signle teamed by a 2nd string LT and he still did not have much of an impact on the game. I was at that game and I found it ironic to hear what some Panthers fans said about him.

You do realise Peppers plays on the strong side therefore he'd be covered by a RT.

Jughead10
05-16-2007, 07:56 PM
You do realise Peppers plays on the strong side therefore he'd be covered by a RT.

Strongside isn't always the side of the RT, although we may have had ours out that game. I don't recall, number10 can answer.

BlindSite
05-16-2007, 08:07 PM
by Michael David Smith

Is Julius Peppers underrated? That might seem like a silly question because everyone who follows football knows that Peppers is a good player, a rare talent who has not only the typical strength of a defensive end but also the speed and athleticism of the power forward he once was. But watching Peppers on every play of the Carolina Panthers’ 23-21 victory over the Baltimore Ravens, my jaw dropped at seeing not just a good or even very good player, but a defensive lineman doing things I didn’t think a defensive lineman could do.

Baltimore’s blocking schemes revolved around controlling Peppers. On each play of the Ravens’ first possession, both right tackle Tony Pashos and running back Jamal Lewis blocked Peppers. All three plays were passes, and on all three Lewis chipped Peppers before running his route because the Ravens figured that Pashos couldn’t keep Peppers off quarterback Steve McNair without Lewis’s help. Peppers didn’t do anything extraordinary on that possession, but just seeing the way Baltimore opened the game showed how much its game plan focused on Peppers.

On the second possession, Baltimore still doubled Peppers, with little success. On the first play of the series both Pashos and right guard Keydrick Vincent blocked Peppers. On the second play, Vincent held Peppers, but it wasn’t called. On the third play, Peppers bull-rushed Vincent, collapsing the pocket and forcing McNair into a bad throw, which strong safety Colin Branch intercepted. At this point, the Panthers’ defense had been on the field for six plays. Peppers had been doubled four times and held once, and on the one play he was neither, he forced a turnover.

Holding was Baltimore’s most effective strategy. On a second-and-4 on Baltimore’s fifth possession, Peppers stunted to the inside and Vincent held him. In fact, Vincent held Peppers every time they went one-on-one. Later in the game Pashos started joining Vincent in holding. The officials never called it, though. It was actually a smart tactic. Referee Peter Morelli’s crew was calling the game, and that crew has called by far the fewest holding penalties of any group of officials this year. If the officials aren’t going to call it, the linemen might as well do it. My advice to all offensive linemen: When Morelli works your game, just hold all day.

On the Ravens’ third possession, Carolina’s defense revealed a different wrinkle when Peppers dropped into coverage on first-and-10. Peppers’ presence kept McNair from having an easy checkdown to Lewis or tight end Todd Heap, and that forced McNair to hold onto the ball too long. Linebacker Chris Draft and defensive end Mike Rucker sacked him, knocking him out of the game.

Peppers dropped into coverage a few more times as Carolina zone-blitzed with Draft or other linebackers. On a first-and-10 in the third quarter, Todd Heap went in motion to the right and Peppers dropped back to cover Heap, which would usually be a linebacker’s job. Kyle Boller (who played most of the game in relief of McNair) rolled to his right and threw to Heap, and Peppers tackled him for a nine-yard gain. In general, I don’t like that strategy for the Panthers. Why not have Peppers rush the passer so Boller can’t roll to the right in the first place, rather than having Peppers drop back and therefore giving Boller free rein to find someone open? It’s not that Peppers can’t cover the tight end, it’s just that he’s so great at rushing the passer that having him in coverage seems like a waste. It’s an interesting strategy for an occasional change of pace, but generally if the other team is passing and Peppers isn’t rushing, Carolina isn’t using his talents properly.

After the sack that knocked McNair out of the game, Boller’s first two plays were probably Peppers’ most impressive plays of the day. On second-and-19, Peppers lined up at left end. Boller threw a short pass to Lewis along the sideline on the opposite side of the field, and Peppers pursued Lewis across the field and pushed him out of bounds after a gain of only five yards. Defensive ends just aren’t supposed to run down running backs like that, but Peppers did it. And on the next play, Peppers made the tackle in pursuit on the opposite side of the field again. It was third-and-14 and Peppers rushed to the outside. Pashos blocked him, and running back Musa Smith helped with a chip. Boller rolled out and took off running on the other side of the field, and Peppers ran across the field and tackled him for a gain of only six yards.

That pursuit is what separates Peppers from other defensive ends. On third-and-15 on Baltimore’s fourth possession, the Ravens ran a draw to Smith. Peppers started the play on an outside rush. On that type of play, the offense doesn’t worry about the defensive end — even the best defensive ends can’t be expected to rush to the outside and then tackle a running back on a draw up the middle. But when Peppers recognized the draw, he reversed course, drilled Smith and forced a fumble. Peppers isn’t like other defensive ends.

On a first-and-10 later, Mike Anderson took a handoff off the right tackle, running away from Peppers. But when the right side of the Panthers’ defense bottled up Anderson, it was Peppers, pursuing the play from the backside, who tackled Anderson for a loss of two.

While I’m praising Peppers I should acknowledge the obvious, which is that he doesn’t make every play. On a third-and-9 with Boller in the shotgun, Peppers tried to rush to the outside, and Pashos did a nice job allowing him to rush upfield but not collapse the pocket. Boller had time to pick up the first down while Peppers essentially took himself out of the play. But those plays were the exception, and Peppers’ pressure masked some bad coverage from Carolina’s secondary. On a third-and-6 on Baltimore’s sixth possession, Heap beat Carolina defensive back James Anderson and was open deep, but Peppers’ pressure forced Boller to throw the ball without getting completely set, causing an incompletion on what could have been a 40-yard gain. On one first-and-10 in the third quarter, Lewis was left to block Peppers one-on-one. That was a mismatch. Boller rolled to the outside, Peppers got past Lewis and got in Boller’s face, and Boller had to throw the ball away to avoid a sack.

Sacks are the main way defensive linemen get attention, but I haven’t even mentioned Peppers’ two sacks Sunday. One was a first-and-10, when Peppers rushed straight ahead into Pashos, knocked him to the ground, and sacked Boller for a loss of six yards. The other came on a second-and-10 when Peppers rushed to the outside and evaded both Pashos and Vincent. Boller tried to run up the middle, and Peppers reversed course, getting into the middle of the field to sack Boller for a three-yard loss. Peppers shows a very instinctive ability to know where the ball carrier is going. Most defensive ends would have continued to rush to the outside, but Peppers seemed to sense that Boller was going to go up the middle, and he got there in time to sack him.

So if Peppers can sack quarterbacks, run down running backs, and cover tight ends, is there anything he can’t do? If I were an opposing offensive coordinator, I’d try to run directly at him. Peppers is a strong player and a sure tackler, but if he showed any weakness Sunday it was that Pashos sometimes beat him in straight-ahead run blocking. But this is a mere quibble. Peppers showed on Sunday that he’s not just a good player. He’s the best defensive player in the NFL.

Ravens1991
05-16-2007, 08:16 PM
Blindsite just to let you know, Vincent is one of the worst guards in the league and the article is about Peppers dominating him. But I do agree that Peppers is a great DE.

BlindSite
05-16-2007, 08:20 PM
Its about him dominating him and Pashos

Ravens1991
05-16-2007, 08:21 PM
Its about him dominating him and Pashos

Pashos was average at best also.

Number 10
05-16-2007, 08:22 PM
You do realise Peppers plays on the strong side therefore he'd be covered by a RT.

Um, what? .

BlindSite
05-16-2007, 08:25 PM
Um, what? .

GG ignoring EVERYTHING else I have to say.

Number 10
05-16-2007, 08:26 PM
GG ignoring EVERYTHING else I have to say.

I'm simply asking what the hell are you talking about with the whole strong side/RT comment?

bigbluedefense
05-16-2007, 08:38 PM
His measurables weren't all that rediculously amazing considering he plays faster and stronger than he has been recorded at on paper. If you watched him play for more than one or two games a season you'd know that.

He's got the ability to take over a game and has done so in the past. He sees a double team on every play, if he's not double teamed he's chipped at the line or he's held, every play he's one on one and the lineman doesn't decide to cheat he's reaching the quarterback.

You might not know this, but every officiating crew in the NFL has a brief written about them, so that coaches can instruct their players on certain things, like "these guys aren't big on holding penalties" or "these guys never miss a false start" so they know when they can hold or not, more often than not, when a refereeing crew is known to allowing holding Peppers just about gets bear hugged. I take notes when I watch games, because I write for panthershuddle. When I do, about half the snaps I watch Peppers, almost all of them will have a h, or a dt, for holding or double team.

Osi rarely sees the double team, same with Will Smith because of the players they have on their other side and the fact that they're on the weak side.

Face it, what we're comparing here, is a player who's given 100% of the offensive protection schemes attention during games because he's so damn good and the player on his other side is around the league average and two guys who've got better defensive ends on the other end of their defensive line and see a lot less double team blocks...

Peppers has better stats than them both despite receiving the attention he does and being on the other side, the more watched and schemed for side...



See the above, he does play up to his athleticism he flat out takes over games, did you happen to see carolina vs cleveland last year? Or his performance against Minnesota?



If he decides to stop using anabolic steroids.


This is the typical post in support of Peppers that makes me absolutely pull my hair out. Because its so off base and inaccurate, its not even funny.


Is Peppers doubled, chipped etc? OF COURSE. Is he the ONLY one in the league who is? ABSOLUTELY NOT.


Osi, Will Smith, Jason Taylor among others see the same exact treatment. To believe otherwise is simply inaccurate. The best dline on any team gets doubled. Thats how it works. And not to mention, Peppers goes against the RT, not the LT. So he's actually at a competitive advantage from this standpoint.

And before you say I havent watched any Panthers games, youre wrong. Ive watched plenty. And Ive watched him play both Dallas and the Giants this year as well. He got did not get doubled at all against Dallas. The entire game he went one on one with their RT and got WORKED. Now of course, every dog has its day, but to believe that Peppers is getting SO much more thrown at him than any other DE is an absolute fallicy. If you don't believe me, youre more than welcomed to go back and watch the tape of that game and prove me wrong. Id say at least 80% of the time, he just had the RT on him.


Don't get me wrong. Peppers is the arguably the best DE in the league. But to make him look like God is simply inaccurate. For a guy who's such a "beast", I believe (i could be wrong) that he's never led the league in sacks, tackles for a DE, or ever won DPOY. If he's THAT much better than everyone else, if he's easily the best defensemen in the league, don't you think he'd lead the league in at least ONE of these categories in any of his years?


Think about it.

And if you honestly believe everything you said about he gets so much more treatment thrown his way in terms of blocking/pass protection, then you simply don't understand how blocking works.

bearsfan_51
05-16-2007, 08:42 PM
I hate to think how scary the Panthers would be if they were as good as Blindsite thinks they are.

Flyboy
05-16-2007, 08:42 PM
Boy, has this veered off-topic.

Number 10
05-16-2007, 08:47 PM
McKenzie played Peppers just like Peitgout played Freeney....he let him fly up field time after time because he doesn't use pass rush moves effectively enough. The Giants did not double him very often to say the least, nor did they chip him. They were using their three interior linemen to block the DTs....not help with Mr. Overrated.

bigbluedefense
05-16-2007, 08:52 PM
McKenzie played Peppers just like Peitgout played Freeney....he let him fly up field time after time because he doesn't use pass rush moves effectively enough. The Giants did not double him very often to say the least, nor did they chip him. They were using their three interior linemen to block the DTs....not help with Mr. Overrated.

And thats what Peppers supporters fail to see. How mediocre he is in terms of pass rushing technique. Peppers is simply not that great of a pass rusher, regardless of what his supporters will lead you to believe. He's great against the run (although not best in the league), and he's great in coverage (the most overrated aspect of a DE), but as a pass rusher, I can probably name at least 5 DEs in the league better.

It gets frustrating even discussing him because people are so blind to the belief that he's so much better than everyone else. And its simply not true. And if anyone accuses me of just saying this because Im a Giants fan, thats simply not true either.

bigbluedefense
05-16-2007, 08:59 PM
I should clarify, he's mediocre in terms of TECHNIQUE as a pass rusher. Thats an important thing to clarify. He still gets a good amount of sacks per year, but its all with his athleticism. I rarely see him work the Tackles mentally.

I discuss this with Dallas fans all the time when discussing Ware. The mental side of pass rushing is so underrated. Theres technique, mentally setting up your lineman, using different combinations of rushes at different times etc. Peppers hasn't grasped the mental side of the game yet.

And if he doesn't, he'll have a poor 2nd half of his career. The guys who fall off at the end of their careers in any sport are the guys who fail to develop the mental side of their game. Guys like Strahan, Taylor, Zach Thomas, they play with instincts and in Strahan and Taylor's case, great leverage. If Peppers doesn't develop that, his #s will slide later in his career.

Number 10
05-16-2007, 08:59 PM
And thats what Peppers supporters fail to see. How mediocre he is in terms of pass rushing technique. Peppers is simply not that great of a pass rusher, regardless of what his supporters will lead you to believe. He's great against the run (although not best in the league), and he's great in coverage (the most overrated aspect of a DE), but as a pass rusher, I can probably name at least 5 DEs in the league better.

It gets frustrating even discussing him because people are so blind to the belief that he's so much better than everyone else. And its simply not true. And if anyone accuses me of just saying this because Im a Giants fan, thats simply not true either.

Oh who gives a flying you know what about the rationale behind someone disagreeing with you. I think Peppers is overrated and I think Osi is better than him...and it's funny when I get called a homer because I have probably broken down more game tape between the two than anyone here and I am one of the level-headed Giants fans here according to some of the smarter posters. No, I am not trying to label myself a football genius but the vast majority of people that disagree with me do not have even close the amount of knowledge about the two players to make any sort of valid opinion.

bigbluedefense
05-16-2007, 09:08 PM
Im not ready to say that yet. I need to see Osi stay healthy next year and produce the way he's capable of before I can say that. I can see it, and I wouldnt be surprised if he outperforms Peppers next year, but its premature right now. I'll say he has potential to be better.

Number 10
05-16-2007, 09:13 PM
Im not ready to say that yet. I need to see Osi stay healthy next year and produce the way he's capable of before I can say that. I can see it, and I wouldnt be surprised if he outperforms Peppers next year, but its premature right now. I'll say he has potential to be better.

Thats fine, I don't mind that anyone disagrees with me. But I mean...I really wonder how many people have watched more than 10 games of the two to be able to form a real opinion.

bigbluedefense
05-16-2007, 09:21 PM
Thats fine, I don't mind that anyone disagrees with me. But I mean...I really wonder how many people have watched more than 10 games of the two to be able to form a real opinion.

Oh I know. Which is why this topic is one of the most frustrating to discuss. Hearing some of the things said just makes you want to pull out your hair. We fall in love with measureables way too much. It happens every offseason. You see the guys with the great measureables always get more credit than they warrant.

BlindSite
05-16-2007, 11:54 PM
Oh who gives a flying you know what about the rationale behind someone disagreeing with you. I think Peppers is overrated and I think Osi is better than him...and it's funny when I get called a homer because I have probably broken down more game tape between the two than anyone here and I am one of the level-headed Giants fans here according to some of the smarter posters. No, I am not trying to label myself a football genius but the vast majority of people that disagree with me do not have even close the amount of knowledge about the two players to make any sort of valid opinion.

Osi is no where near the defensive end peppers is. He's not as good against the run and he's not as good a pass rusher, he might have a slightly better repertoire of moves than Peppers, but he's not a more complete defensive and is in no way better. Or more valuable to your defense than Peppers is to ours.

Say what you will about games where you feel he was beaten, there's not many defensive players, if any in the league who can take over a game, as consistently and as wholly as Julius Peppers.

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over who's watched more game film, because there's no way to support that argument, in any event, the statistics show me something.

In four years Osi has managed:
Total Tackles: 179
Sacks: 28.5
Forced Fumbles: 9
Int:0
Def TD: 1
Pass Def: 8

Whereas Peppers has managed in 5
Total Tackles: 250
Sacks: 53.5
Forced Fumbles: 17
Int: 3
Def TD: 2
Pass Def: 26

In one season more playing time, two years of which he played with a very lack lustre defensive line on his inside 04, and 05 due to injuries.

For Osi to match Peppers production over the first 5 years of his career, he'd have to almost double every statistic he's earned so far in ONE year.

This silly argument is over, you lose... Peppers is a better defensive end, in every category than Osi is, or has the ceiling to be.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 12:09 AM
Osi is no where near the defensive end peppers is. He's not as good against the run and he's not as good a pass rusher, he might have a slightly better repertoire of moves than Peppers, but he's not a more complete defensive and is in no way better. Or more valuable to your defense than Peppers is to ours.

Say what you will about games where you feel he was beaten, there's not many defensive players, if any in the league who can take over a game, as consistently and as wholly as Julius Peppers.

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over who's watched more game film, because there's no way to support that argument, in any event, the statistics show me something.

In four years Osi has managed:
Total Tackles: 179
Sacks: 28.5
Forced Fumbles: 9
Int:0
Def TD: 1
Pass Def: 8

Whereas Peppers has managed in 5
Total Tackles: 250
Sacks: 53.5
Forced Fumbles: 17
Int: 3
Def TD: 2
Pass Def: 26

In one season more playing time, two years of which he played with a very lack lustre defensive line on his inside 04, and 05 due to injuries.

For Osi to match Peppers production over the first 5 years of his career, he'd have to almost double every statistic he's earned so far in ONE year.

This silly argument is over, you lose... Peppers is a better defensive end, in every category than Osi is, or has the ceiling to be.

(Peppers has more than twice the amount of starts than Osi does)

Yet again you prove that YOU are the one that has NO IDEA about the player that does not wear your favorite team's uniform. If you are unable to involve yourself in a debate that requires you to have more know knowledge about a player than simply going to a statistics page, I suggest you go elsewhere because you are digging your hole deeper and deeper and you are making yourself look like an idiot.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 12:20 AM
So BlindSite-

Stats do not tell the whole story, but if they are the basis of your argument...

Osi has more sacks per start

Osi has more tackles per start

Osi has more forced fumbles per start

Osi has more TDs per start

At least Peppers is a better pass defender though, right?

BlindSite
05-17-2007, 12:22 AM
(Peppers has more than twice the amount of starts than Osi does)

Yet again you prove that YOU are the one that has NO IDEA about the player that does not wear your favorite team's uniform. If you are unable to involve yourself in a debate that requires you to have more know knowledge about a player than simply going to a statistics page, I suggest you go elsewhere because you are digging your hole deeper and deeper and you are making yourself look like an idiot.

Champ, I said "almost double" the key word being almost dry your eyes for a start.

Secondly, this is the first time I've mentioned statistics since you were blubbering on about production.


So far all you've done is say Peppers has been inconsistent, and that Osi is super duper amazing godlike better than Peppers in every way, the statistics don't show it.

I'm not a fan of using stats as an argument, and that's not what I'm doing here, I'm using statistics to support my argument, that Peppers is a more productive player than Osi Umenyiora. Are you going to deny what the only tangible evidence shows? are you going to despite the irrefutable?

Or are you going to say, the stats don't show the whole story and Umenyiora is better "just because"

You lose, stop telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, and stop saying I look like an idiot.

I've proven my point with more than one source, to backup my opinion, you've done nothing to backup yours other than post using capital letters with your giants friends to support you.

You've got nothing, you lose.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 12:25 AM
Champ, I said "almost double" the key word being almost dry your eyes for a start.

Secondly, this is the first time I've mentioned statistics since you were blubbering on about production.


So far all you've done is say Peppers has been inconsistent, and that Osi is super duper amazing godlike better than Peppers in every way, the statistics don't show it.

I'm not a fan of using stats as an argument, and that's not what I'm doing here, I'm using statistics to support my argument, that Peppers is a more productive player than Osi Umenyiora. Are you going to deny what the only tangible evidence shows? are you going to despite the irrefutable?

Or are you going to say, the stats don't show the whole story and Umenyiora is better "just because"

You lose, stop telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, and stop saying I look like an idiot.

I've proven my point with more than one source, to backup my opinion, you've done nothing to backup yours other than post using capital letters with your giants friends to support you.

You've got nothing, you lose.

Read the post just above yours, champ.

BlindSite
05-17-2007, 12:31 AM
So BlindSite-

Stats do not tell the whole story, but if they are the basis of your argument...

Osi has more sacks per start

Osi has more tackles per start

Osi has more forced fumbles per start

Osi has more TDs per start

At least Peppers is a better pass defender though, right?

Ok, now you've gone and done something very, very, very stupid.

I just calculated the numbers, very simple algorithm, you take the statistic for career totals and you divide them by the number of games played, here's the results.

Peppers
Total Tackles 3.3
Sacks 0.7
Forced Fumbles 0.22
Touchdowns 0.02

Umenyiora
Total Tackles 2.2
Sacks 0.5
Forced Fumbles 0.16
Touchdowns 0.01

You might want to try research

Number 10
05-17-2007, 12:42 AM
Your numbers are wrong you idiot.

Giantsfan1080
05-17-2007, 12:44 AM
This is like watching a great boxing match going back and forth.

BlindSite
05-17-2007, 12:44 AM
They're based off NFL.com's official statistics.

All I've done is take his production overall and divide it by the number of games over his career, he's got less production per start.

^ Yeah well consider him calling me the idiot the punk drunken staggers of a beaten fighter.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 12:47 AM
hahahaha.....Here are the real numbers-

Osi has 35 starts

Sacks per-0.81
Tackles per-5.11
Forced Fumbles per-0.25

Peppers has 76 starts

Sacks per-0.70
Tackles per-3.29
Forced Fumbles Per-0.22

Number 10
05-17-2007, 12:48 AM
They're based off NFL.com's official statistics.

All I've done is take his production overall and divide it by the number of games over his career, he's got less production per start.

^ Yeah well consider him calling me the idiot the punk drunken staggers of a beaten fighter.

Guess you haven't checked out many games Osi started. Again, you prove that you know nothing about Osi.

BlindSite
05-17-2007, 12:56 AM
What I know is he can't stay healthy, he needs the NFL's all time sack leader across from him to do anything and above all else, in the number of games he's been invloved he's done less than Julius Peppers.

If you're going to go by the method you want to count statistics you have remove everything he's ever earned by playing in a situational role, like he has done for 17 games.

If you want to go off games started, which means they have to be on the field for the first defensive snap, it's ******** anyway, because Peppers started every game but was benched to protect him from injury heading into the playoffs in 03 and 05 and was benched to get younger guys some snaps in 04 and 06 when our season was beyond saving.

So unless you want to do things properly stop throwing around the insults, games played is the only way to do things right.

Games Started is useless, there's no way to tell how many sacks or tackles osi racked up in clean up time playing against second tier competition with a starter on the bench. Games played is the only way to do it with the material involved, otherwise you're taking statistics from games he didn't start and counting them with the others.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 01:02 AM
What I know is he can't stay healthy, he needs the NFL's all time sack leader across from him to do anything and above all else, in the number of games he's been invloved he's done less than Julius Peppers.

If you're going to go by the method you want to count statistics you have remove everything he's ever earned by playing in a situational role, like he has done for 17 games.

If you want to go off games started, which means they have to be on the field for the first defensive snap, it's ******** anyway, because Peppers started every game but was benched to protect him from injury heading into the playoffs.

So unless you want to do things properly stop throwing around the insults, games played is the only way to do things right.

hahahahahaha

Before I allow you to talk about Osi anymore...admit that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to anything Giants related. Admit that your stats were flawed.

-Osi was hurt last year, that means he is injury prone?

-Osi got doubled more than Strahan last year, you didn't see that on the abundance of Giants tape you don't have? Hm.

-I never brought the stats up, YOU did. And now that the stats that YOU brought into the argument are not tilted in your favor, they are all of the sudden thrown out of the window?

-Osi was not a starter at the start of his career. He was an undersized pass rusher that that needed to add some bulk and after he did that, he became what I think he is.

-"The right way"? You mean the way that makes Peppers look better? How is it fair for you to count all of those stats from Osi's early start when he was primarily a special teams player? Oh I forgot, you don't know jack about the Giants.

-You are a joke.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 01:05 AM
Dude just stop while you can.

Osi was starting at DE the second half of his second season, and that is when he took off. No garbage time sacks. Has Peppers ever had a garbage time sack? No way, right?

BlindSite
05-17-2007, 01:09 AM
You want the adjusted stats... Based on his production by number of games he actually started, and his production therein.

Tackles: 3.2
Sacks: 0.6
FF: 0.18
TD: 0.01

Peppers
Total Tackles 3.3
Sacks 0.7
Forced Fumbles 0.22
Touchdowns 0.02

Still not as good. Nice try though.

He can get that, getting a lot less attention than Peppers, good for him. Besides all of this, you've proven for me that Peppers has been more productive for a longer period and more reliable.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 01:11 AM
Oh and Blindsite-

Osi never played with the NFL's all time sack leader.

Unless of course Bruce Smith played for the Giants over the past 4 years, how about you go check out those game tapes you have of the G-Men.....oh wait.....

Number 10
05-17-2007, 01:13 AM
You want the adjusted stats... Based on his production by number of games he actually started, and his production therein.

Tackles: 3.2
Sacks: 0.6
FF: 0.18
TD: 0.01

Peppers
Total Tackles 3.3
Sacks 0.7
Forced Fumbles 0.22
Touchdowns 0.02

Still not as good. Nice try though.

He can get that, getting a lot less attention than Peppers, good for him.

Wait, where did you pull those numbers from?

BlindSite
05-17-2007, 01:16 AM
This is how I did it, I took the number of starts, verses the number of games played. I then took his total stats, inclusive of all his action, whether starting or just playing and divided them according to games started.

What you see there, is his actual production PER START.

Not his, production, divided by number of starts, like you had.

I'm saying Osi isn't a probowl calibre end, what I am saying is he's not better than Julius Peppers, and I'm happy to say, there's nothing to support anything you or anyone has to say to the conjecture.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 01:17 AM
You kept me up way too late, but at least I made another nieve fan of the NFL more enlightened. You are a prime example of one that does not know enough about players that do not play for the Panthers, thus your opinion is invalid. I'm off to bed, if you want to pick this up again tommorow then so be it.

Oh and....

You lose.

BlindSite
05-17-2007, 01:21 AM
You kept me up way too late, but at least I made another nieve fan of the NFL more enlightened. You are a prime example of one that does not know enough about players that do not play for the Panthers, thus your opinion is invalid. I'm off to bed, if you want to pick this up again tommorow then so be it.

Oh and....

You lose.

Naive? No, I might not have as much info about your team as you do, but at least I know when I'm right.

The stats back me up, media outlets back me up, you're the only one who can't accept it.

ricky bobby
05-17-2007, 08:37 AM
Number 10, Peppers is clearly a better DE than Osi. He has better production, better athleticism and is more feared than Osi. BlindSite brought up both players stats per game, and Peppers stats are clearly better. I can't see how you can just say "You lose", and then not back it up with a counterargument. I'm surprised that more people haven't come to Blindsite's defense. The idea that Osi is than Peppers is Ludicrous, and a complete homer pick. I would expect something like this out of GRF, but not from you.

Ewing
05-17-2007, 08:48 AM
So BlindSite-

Stats do not tell the whole story, but if they are the basis of your argument...

Osi has more sacks per start

Osi has more tackles per start

Osi has more forced fumbles per start

Osi has more TDs per start

At least Peppers is a better pass defender though, right?

Per start doesn't mean jack. Huard had a better TD-INT ratio per start last season than anyone in the league. Does that mean he's better than Manning? Osi isn't even ****ing close to Peppers so stop your homer arguement. BlindSite might be overrating him but you're overrating Osi so much it's insane. Once Osi has consistent production for a few seasons then he can be mentioned along side Peppers. Until then, he's a one year wonder.

Jughead10
05-17-2007, 08:53 AM
Per start doesn't mean jack. Huard had a better TD-INT ratio per start last season than anyone in the league. Does that mean he's better than Manning? Osi isn't even ****ing close to Peppers so stop your homer arguement. BlindSite might be overrating him but you're overrating Osi so much it's insane. Once Osi has consistent production for a few seasons then he can be mentioned along side Peppers. Until then, he's a one year wonder.

I wouldn't say Osi is better than Peppers yet. Last offseason I said he potentially could be and we'd see after this past season. However Osi got injured. Peppers is a bit overrated in my mind. He is extremely good, but his isn't as dominating as people make him to be. He often dissappears in games. Not bringing this guy up because he is a Giant, but I think it is a good comparison and that is that Peppers is no Michael Strahan in his prime. Thats just the bottom line. He isn't that type of dominant yet. He may never be.

However I wouldn't exactly call Osi a one year wonder. The year before he had his "one year wonder", when he was inserted into being a starter halfway through the season, he had a dominant second half of a season similar to his big year. That was without Strahan playing too. He was also pretty much dominant the first 6 games of this last season until he got his first legitimate injury of his football career.

Ewing
05-17-2007, 09:01 AM
I wouldn't say Osi is better than Peppers yet. Last offseason I said he potentially could be and we'd see after this past season. However Osi got injured. Peppers is a bit overrated in my mind. He is extremely good, but his isn't as dominating as people make him to be. He often dissappears in games. Not bringing this guy up because he is a Giant, but I think it is a good comparison and that is that Peppers is no Michael Strahan in his prime. Thats just the bottom line. He isn't that type of dominant yet. He may never be.

However I wouldn't exactly call Osi a one year wonder. The year before he had his "one year wonder", when he was inserted into being a starter halfway through the season, he had a dominant second half of a season similar to his big year. That was without Strahan playing too. He was also pretty much dominant the first 6 games of this last season until he got his first legitimate injury of his football career.

I will admit that players can be dominate for half a year. I order to be one of the best you have to be able to do it consistently over the course of an entire year for several seasons. Osi had one good half year and a pretty good full year. That's it. Peppers has had one incredible season after another. This would be like saying Asomugha is better than Bailey.

ricky bobby
05-17-2007, 09:06 AM
Bottom line is that Peppers is considered the best DE in the league by most people, and rightfully so. Many people would be hardpressed to put Osi even in the top 5 at this point in his career. Now if he has that great season that he has predicted, that will obviously change, but as of right now, no.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 09:23 AM
Number 10, Peppers is clearly a better DE than Osi. He has better production, better athleticism and is more feared than Osi. BlindSite brought up both players stats per game, and Peppers stats are clearly better. I can't see how you can just say "You lose", and then not back it up with a counterargument. I'm surprised that more people haven't come to Blindsite's defense. The idea that Osi is than Peppers is Ludicrous, and a complete homer pick. I would expect something like this out of GRF, but not from you.

Oh Ricky, sigh

-Peppers has better stats per game because he has been on the field more than Osi. I broke it down with stats on a per start basis, and Osi'snumbers were clearly better. If you want to say, "Hey those numbers are inflated because he played special teams his first year and a half and those tackles should not be counted"....then fine. But it's not like Osi's averages drastically drop once he becomes a starter at DE anyway. His prodiction increased once he saw full time action at DE.

-I already said Peppers has better athleticism. So what? We both know you fall in love with workout numbers way too much, isn't this another example? The NFL isn't the combine.

-The whole "You lose" statement was because he kept on saying that after everyone one of his posts.

-Call me a homer, blah blah blah. The smart people here know that isn't true and if you wanna throw that at me, go for it. Just know that I have seen 10x more tape comparing the two than you have.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 09:28 AM
Per start doesn't mean jack. Huard had a better TD-INT ratio per start last season than anyone in the league. Does that mean he's better than Manning? Osi isn't even ****ing close to Peppers so stop your homer arguement. BlindSite might be overrating him but you're overrating Osi so much it's insane. Once Osi has consistent production for a few seasons then he can be mentioned along side Peppers. Until then, he's a one year wonder.

ha

Go back to the beginning of this debate, I wasn't the one who brought stats up. He brought them in, I fixed them because his were inaccurate after he was the one that called me stupid.....and then all of the sudden he comes out with the line "Oh well stats don't matter". Ironic, right?

Tell me, how much of Osi and Peppers do you actually watch? Just the games that are on national TV? And when you watch them, do you put the eyeball on Osi and Peppers?

If you are clinging to the statement that Osi needs to do it for a longer period of time, fine. I won't put you down for that because me saying Osi is better is more of a, "I would take him on my team right now if I had to choose a DE for my new franchise" type statement.

P-L
05-17-2007, 09:28 AM
Number 10, Peppers is clearly a better DE than Osi. He has better production, better athleticism and is more feared than Osi. BlindSite brought up both players stats per game, and Peppers stats are clearly better. I can't see how you can just say "You lose", and then not back it up with a counterargument. I'm surprised that more people haven't come to Blindsite's defense. The idea that Osi is than Peppers is Ludicrous, and a complete homer pick. I would expect something like this out of GRF, but not from you.

People aren't coming to BlindSite's defense for two reasons. First of all, his comment about Peppers being game planned for was over the top. Second of all, everyone (except Number 10) pretty much agrees that Peppers is the superior DE. This argument has been had before. People are now arguing the gap between Peppers and Osi, which is probably closer than BlindSite is arguing.

ricky bobby
05-17-2007, 09:36 AM
Oh Ricky, sigh

-Peppers has better stats per game because he has been on the field more than Osi. I broke it down with stats on a per start basis, and Osi'snumbers were clearly better. If you want to say, "Hey those numbers are inflated because he played special teams his first year and a half and those tackles should not be counted"....then fine. But it's not like Osi's averages drastically drop once he becomes a starter at DE anyway. His prodiction increased once he saw full time action at DE.

-I already said Peppers has better athleticism. So what? We both know you fall in love with workout numbers way too much, isn't this another example? The NFL isn't the combine.

-The whole "You lose" statement was because he kept on saying that after everyone one of his posts.

-Call me a homer, blah blah blah. The smart people here know that isn't true and if you wanna throw that at me, go for it. Just know that I have seen 10x more tape comparing the two than you have.

Well next time you watch the tapes, take the homer goggles off. Osi has had one great season up to this point, there is no way you can call him the better than the best DE in the league. I can't even put the two in the same sentence. Osi hasn't even started his entire career, he's been injured, and has had only one great season. Peppers has posted double digit sacks in four of his 5 seasons. And please don't say that stats don't matter. Stats are the only way people can reasonably distinguish between players.

scottyboy
05-17-2007, 09:54 AM
RIGHT NOW Peppers is better than Osi, and Osi is my favorite player in the league(i own the 1st ever made Osi jersey!) But arguments like this are dumb because you cant justsay so and so is just better. Better at what? I honestly think Osi is a better run-stuffer, but Peppers isa better pass rusher. Peppers is also better in coverage(athleticism) but Osi has a better motor. I like both players, both are top 10 DE's(peppers probably 1 or 2).

ohhh and Osi is wayy better than Will Smith, it isnt really close

eacantdraft
05-17-2007, 09:57 AM
I'd take Osi.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 09:59 AM
Well next time you watch the tapes, take the homer goggles off. Osi has had one great season up to this point, there is no way you can call him the better than the best DE in the league. I can't even put the two in the same sentence. Osi hasn't even started his entire career, he's been injured, and has had only one great season. Peppers has posted double digit sacks in four of his 5 seasons. And please don't say that stats don't matter. Stats are the only way people can reasonably distinguish between players.

-Please tell me where I said stats don't matter.

-Homer goggles.....today's sign of irony.

-Based on what I see on the tape between Peppers and Osi, Osi is a better DE. The stats back me up as well. That is pretty much the basis of my argument. People who counter my argument come out with the..."He gets quadruple teamed on every play" which isn't true, not even close. They also say, "His freakish athleticism makes him better" which is half true...he is more of an athlete than Osi is but that doesn't make someone better.

-Plain and simple, people just look at where he was drafted and his measuarables and it hinders his actual, football based weaknesses. Peppers has the potential to be the best DE in football, but he disappears way too often for my liking. I'd take Jayson Taylor and Osi over him anyday.

KILLERSANTA
05-17-2007, 10:48 AM
RIGHT NOW Peppers is better than Osi, and Osi is my favorite player in the league(i own the 1st ever made Osi jersey!) But arguments like this are dumb because you cant justsay so and so is just better. Better at what? I honestly think Osi is a better run-stuffer, but Peppers isa better pass rusher. Peppers is also better in coverage(athleticism) but Osi has a better motor. I like both players, both are top 10 DE's(peppers probably 1 or 2).

ohhh and Osi is wayy better than Will Smith, it isnt really close


I own the first Crayton Jersey ever made... ;) :)

ricky bobby
05-17-2007, 11:02 AM
-Please tell me where I said stats don't matter.

-Homer goggles.....today's sign of irony.

-Based on what I see on the tape between Peppers and Osi, Osi is a better DE. The stats back me up as well. That is pretty much the basis of my argument. People who counter my argument come out with the..."He gets quadruple teamed on every play" which isn't true, not even close. They also say, "His freakish athleticism makes him better" which is half true...he is more of an athlete than Osi is but that doesn't make someone better.

-Plain and simple, people just look at where he was drafted and his measuarables and it hinders his actual, football based weaknesses. Peppers has the potential to be the best DE in football, but he disappears way too often for my liking. I'd take Jayson Taylor and Osi over him anyday.
I'm a bottom line guy, I Look at production. Both Osi and Peppers have been in the league the same amount of time. Osi has had 1 double digit sack season, Peppers has had 4. The best lawyer in the world couldn't convince me that Osi is better than Peppers.

jkpigskin
05-17-2007, 11:07 AM
well the way i see it
osi has a DE mate that is high caliber in strahan, while peppers has a solid but not as good a DE partner in mike rucker... this would mean that olines can stack up more people against peppers, but peppers still out produces osi

i feel peppers is the best DE in the league... he has the perfect size for a DE and has unbelievable speed for a guy his size... that allows him to rush the passer as well as pass cover, but he has the size to play the run

i havnt seen that much from osi, but i feel peppers is the best DE in the nfl

Giantsfan1080
05-17-2007, 11:09 AM
Peppers also had a great DT next to him in Jenkins when he first started and a solid one in Buckner. Osi and Strahan have had almost nothing at DT the last 4 years.

bigbluedefense
05-17-2007, 11:12 AM
*grabs another bag of popcorn*

ricky bobby
05-17-2007, 11:14 AM
*grabs another bag of popcorn*
Never gets old, does it? :)

ricky bobby
05-17-2007, 11:19 AM
I love the double standards on this board. I could imagine what would happen in GRF claimed Osi was better than Peppers. He would get absolutely abused, but since it's Number 10 people are actually having the debate, despite how ridiculous it is.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 01:33 PM
I'm a bottom line guy, I Look at production. Both Osi and Peppers have been in the league the same amount of time. Osi has had 1 double digit sack season, Peppers has had 4. The best lawyer in the world couldn't convince me that Osi is better than Peppers.

Of course Peppers has outproduced Osi to this point, he has TWICE AS MANY STARTS!!!!

Holy cow I hate the fact that you fail to realize the obvious more often than not.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 01:35 PM
Peppers also had a great DT next to him in Jenkins when he first started and a solid one in Buckner. Osi and Strahan have had almost nothing at DT the last 4 years.

Ding Ding Ding

It is more beneficial to have a good DT playing next to you than a good E on the other side of the line. For example, I would fear Simeon Rice and Warren Sapp in their prime playing next to each other than Osi Umenyiora and Michael Strahan playing opposite each other.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 01:36 PM
I love the double standards on this board. I could imagine what would happen in GRF claimed Osi was better than Peppers. He would get absolutely abused, but since it's Number 10 people are actually having the debate, despite how ridiculous it is.

Yeh go ahead and compare me to GRF...you'll get far with that one.

ricky bobby
05-17-2007, 02:28 PM
Alright Number 10, tell me exactly where you see Osi as a better DE than Peppers.

Passrushing - Both are very good passrushers, Osi is a bit quicker, but Peppers is stronger and can either bullrush, or spin his way to the QB. Peppers harasses QBs much mor.

Run Defense - Easily Peppers. His size gives him the advantage. Teams take advantage of Osi and run to his side.

Experience - Peppers, more starts.

Production - Peppers has almost twice as many sacks as Osi.

Consistancy - Peppers has had 4 double digit sack seasons, Osi has had one. Peppers is a perenial probowler.

Potential - Peppers has more athleticism, and better size, therefore he has more potential.

So explain to me where you determine that Osi is better than Peppers. I'm not seeing it.

ShutDwn
05-17-2007, 02:36 PM
He doesn't have as many starts, thats true. But he does play with Strahan, who takes tremendous pressure off him.

Peppers hasn't had a dominant defensive line teammate since 03.

Put Peppers in a better system, such as the Patriots or a role like Jason Taylor and he would be incredibly dominant. You can't always blame a player for inconsistency, sometimes they are doing what the coaches tell them too. Peppers is told to drop back in coverage a lot, which could explain some of him disappearing.

Fact is, Peppers has all the talent in the world, if you gave him to a defensive genius who would optimize his potential he would be scary as hell.

I'm not going to comment anymore, because if people can't agree on this ( which is a very reasonable opinion) they can't agree on anything and they might as well close this post before it gets out of hand.

portermvp84
05-17-2007, 02:37 PM
Osi is no way close to Peppers.

OhioState
05-17-2007, 02:39 PM
to get back on topic, I like Will Smith not only because he went to the best college in the land but also because he is a better run defender, stouter at the point of attack and is as effective a pass rusher

Phrost
05-17-2007, 02:41 PM
to get back on topic, I like Will Smith not only because he went to the best college in the land but also because he is a better run defender, stouter at the point of attack and is as effective a pass rusher

Basically summarized it. He is an all around great players without too many flaws.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 02:42 PM
Alright Number 10, tell me exactly where you see Osi as a better DE than Peppers.

Passrushing - Both are very good passrushers, Osi is a bit quicker, but Peppers is stronger and can either bullrush, or spin his way to the QB. Peppers harasses QBs much mor.

Run Defense - Easily Peppers. His size gives him the advantage. Teams take advantage of Osi and run to his side.

Experience - Peppers, more starts.

Production - Peppers has almost twice as many sacks as Osi.

Consistancy - Peppers has had 4 double digit sack seasons, Osi has had one. Peppers is a perenial probowler.

Potential - Peppers has more athleticism, and better size, therefore he has more potential.

So explain to me where you determine that Osi is better than Peppers. I'm not seeing it.

Pass Rushing

-Osi does get off the ball quicker, knows how to use his hands better, plays with far more technique therefore is MUCH more consistent

Run Defense

-Again, Osi plays with far more technique and is tougher to run by than Peppers is. From what I see, Peppers will come down with Dwight Freeney syndrome at times and run upfield while creating a gaping hole on his side.

Experience

-What? Peppers has more starts thus you use that to say he is better than Osi? Ok....I guess Gerald Hayes can be considered a better MLB than Lofa Tatupu because he has more experience.

Production

-Get this through your thick head. Peppers has seen the field more than twice as much as Osi has, of course he has more tackles, sacks, forced fumbles...etc. On a per start basis or time that Osi has seen at DE, he has been more productive than Peppers and I already proved it.

The only thing Peppers has on Osi is measurables.

bigbluedefense
05-17-2007, 02:45 PM
Alright Number 10, tell me exactly where you see Osi as a better DE than Peppers.

Passrushing - Both are very good passrushers, Osi is a bit quicker, but Peppers is stronger and can either bullrush, or spin his way to the QB. Peppers harasses QBs much mor.

Run Defense - Easily Peppers. His size gives him the advantage. Teams take advantage of Osi and run to his side.

Experience - Peppers, more starts.

Production - Peppers has almost twice as many sacks as Osi.

Consistancy - Peppers has had 4 double digit sack seasons, Osi has had one. Peppers is a perenial probowler.

Potential - Peppers has more athleticism, and better size, therefore he has more potential.

So explain to me where you determine that Osi is better than Peppers. I'm not seeing it.


I hate to get this off topic again....but are you sure youre watching the same Osi that I am?

Teams run at Osi? Osi is a better run stuffer than Peppers. Eh, I could say more, but I really don't want to steer this in the wrong direction again. We spent all of last offseason on this. Im done with it.

Geo
05-17-2007, 02:48 PM
You're starting to piss me off with the Freeney mentions.

He lines up at 9 technique and does what is primarily asked of him as a one-gap rush end. When he's allowed to play the run first, he's not anywhere near the liability you're ignorantly thinking him to be.

Jughead10
05-17-2007, 02:49 PM
You're starting to piss me off with the Freeney mentions.

He lines up at 9 technique and does what is primarily asked of him as a one-gap rush end. When he's allowed to play the run first, he's not anywhere near the liability you're ignorantly thinking him to be.

The whole team is a run liability.

scottyboy
05-17-2007, 02:51 PM
The whole team is a run liability.

not anymore because they signed Ramel Meekins.

BBD, wanna share some popcorn?

Geo
05-17-2007, 02:52 PM
That's to be expected when there's only one legit DT on the roster and the linebacker who the defense is built around, the WILL, is played by a weak sister safety.

bigbluedefense
05-17-2007, 02:53 PM
You're starting to piss me off with the Freeney mentions.

He lines up at 9 technique and does what is primarily asked of him as a one-gap rush end. When he's allowed to play the run first, he's not anywhere near the liability you're ignorantly thinking him to be.

Would it be fair to say however, that Freeney is a bottom tier run stuffer in this league? Even when I see him stunt inside, I see him get pushed backwards. Now of course he's not as bad as when he completely whiffs his gap, but he's still not great at stuffing the run, even when crashing inside. Those quick safeties you guys have make it tolerable but when they go down your defense has a big problem because theyre soft at the point of attack.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 02:53 PM
You're starting to piss me off with the Freeney mentions.

He lines up at 9 technique and does what is primarily asked of him as a one-gap rush end. When he's allowed to play the run first, he's not anywhere near the liability you're ignorantly thinking him to be.

I know he is not as bad as some make him out to be, but don't act like Freeney is good against the run even when he isn't flying upfield. But let's keep him out of this discussion.

scottyboy
05-17-2007, 02:55 PM
factor in the fact that Osi had to play with the smell of garbage behind him with Carlos Emmons. A man can only take so much

bigbluedefense
05-17-2007, 02:56 PM
not anymore because they signed Ramel Meekins.

BBD, wanna share some popcorn?

thanks Scotty

*grabs some popcorn*

draftguru151
05-17-2007, 03:03 PM
Something I'm just wondering, #10, are the stats blindsite posted about sacks and such per start correct? Because you keep saying Osi has better stats per start, when those numbers say otherwise.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 03:05 PM
Something I'm just wondering, #10, are the stats blindsite posted about sacks and such per start correct? Because you keep saying Osi has better stats per start, when those numbers say otherwise.

Did you not see the ones I put up?

scottyboy
05-17-2007, 03:06 PM
DG, i dont really like the sacks per start thing. Peppers has a better DT next to him and plus Rucker hasnt been hurt the past 2 years like Strahan has been, putting more pressure and double teams on Osi. Plus my other comment about Emmons is true

draftguru151
05-17-2007, 03:07 PM
Did you not see the ones I put up?

I saw him post some, then you post some, then him post some other ones saying they were the actually numbers he has in those starts. I was asking if those were correct.

draftguru151
05-17-2007, 03:07 PM
DG, i dont really like the sacks per start thing. Peppers has a better DT next to him and plus Rucker hasnt been hurt the past 2 years like Strahan has been, putting more pressure and double teams on Osi. Plus my other comment about Emmons is true

Kris Jenkins 5 starts in 2 years say hello.

scottyboy
05-17-2007, 03:09 PM
Jenkins isnt the only DT on Carolina. Osi has had guys like Willy Joseph start with him. come on WILLY JOSEPH!!!

ricky bobby
05-17-2007, 03:12 PM
Did you not see the ones I put up?
Your stats are wrong. You took the stats that he got in every single game he played in, rather than taking the stats of every game he started. He had production off the bench too, therefore your stats for Osi are inflated. You cannot do the following:

28.5 sacks / 35 starts. = .81 sacks / start

He got some of those sacks when he didn't start. Same applies for tackles, etc.

In order to find the correct stats per start, you would have to count only the sacks he got during the games he started in. Understand?? It's simple math really.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 03:13 PM
I saw him post some, then you post some, then him post some other ones saying they were the actually numbers he has in those starts. I was asking if those were correct.

First of all, I never brought stats into the picture, I only brought them in when he decided to talk about Peppers having twice the amount of pretty much everything but oddly forgot to mention Peppers has been on the field as a DE more than twice as much as Osi.

That said, I have no idea how many special teams tackles Osi had but the vast majority of his stats came once he got the starting job at DE. Even if we can't figure out which set of stats are right, I proved that they are 10x closer than anyone ever thought so those that wrongly create their opinion based off of stats have to give Osi more respect.

Geo
05-17-2007, 03:39 PM
That would be a fairer assestment, BBD. Freeney won't be confused with a run stuffer, but he has and can get to the runningback inside by the line of scrimmage when that's who he's aiming for. It's not a coincidence that teams were so successful running the ball against the Colts up the middle, before Freeney and Mathis had a chance to get to the runningbacks, until Booger McFarland eventually brought a measure of stoutness, disruption, and leadership to that previously soft interior (I'd also credit inserting Rob Morris at SLB from Week 13 on as a big addition to the front seven, he's a coverage liability but he's easily the closest thing to a run-stuffer the Colts have).

You'd think the Colts would have Freeney in such a manner more often, considering the number of draws opponents purposefully gameplan against them because of their inane desire to consistently pass rush first and defend the run second. Especially when they had such pitiful personnel at WLB who could make Maurice Drew look like Jim Brown because he couldn't initiate a damn tackle below the shoulders against him.

I respect the hell out of Coach Dungy, but I hated that nonsense. It was pathetic, it was why teams would convert 3rd down after 3rd down no matter the bloody distance needed. Thankfully the Colts' coaching staff got it through their thick skulls to play the run first come the playoffs, and I only hope it can remains in 2007.



... Err, back to Smith, Umenyoira, and Peppers.

I've long-thought Peppers is overrated as the supposed bar-none best in the league; I'd gladly take Jason Taylor over him any day, for example. Peppers can rush the passer and stuff the run, but he doesn't do it near as consistent as he could imo for me to think otherwise. It really does amaze me how he disappears more from games than "lesser" ends do, nevermind how easily it's overlooked how he consistently has the benefit of playing against some of the lesser lineman/offenses every year to prep up his resume.

As for the specific debate between Smith and Osi, I'd probably give the edge to Smith although I'm looking forward to seeing if Osi can stay healthy this year and seeing how he plays with Sprags as his defensive coordinator (anyone has to be an instant upgrade over Lewis). The Giants drafting a pass-rushing tackle in Jay Alford makes me wonder how aggressive the front four will be, and whether that might hurt them in run defense (which was an underrated aspect of the Giants last year) like it has the Eagles at times.

Jughead10
05-17-2007, 03:43 PM
As for the specific debate between Smith and Osi, I'd probably give the edge to Smith although I'm looking forward to seeing if Osi can stay healthy this year and seeing how he plays with Sprags as his defensive coordinator (anyone has to be an instant upgrade over Lewis). The Giants drafting a pass-rushing tackle in Jay Alford makes me wonder how aggressive the front four will be, and whether that might hurt them in run defense (which was an underrated aspect of the Giants last year) like it has the Eagles at times.

We have talked about this in the Giants discussion. I'd expect a little hit to the run defense in the beginning to the year because of what we presume to be a new agressive nature. You are right the Giants consistently over the past 10 years have been very good at run defense. Never the best but always very very solid. A lot more pressure will be put on the LBers and specifically Antonio Pierce to stop the run. He seems to be up for it and I think he can take the added responsibility. The guy is like a second coach on the field. We'll also see how the transition of Kiwi to SLB works as far as run defense.

But you are right, we will be switching to a defense similar to the Eagles. Alford is a passrushing DT and Cofield will be switching from the nose to a similar style.

Number 10
05-17-2007, 03:55 PM
I don't want to start another debate but our front 4 is a lot better than what is in Philly. The Eagles don't have DEs that play the run well and their our DTs have more bulk than the Eagles DTs. I don't forsee it as a problem at all.

Modano
05-17-2007, 04:24 PM
I've made a little research

Osi's Stats

2006: 11 starts, 6 sacks = 0.54 spgs
2005: 16 starts, 14.5 sacks = 0.9 spgs
2004: 7 starts, 3 sacks = 0.42 spgs
2003: 1 starts, 0 sack = 0.0 spgs

Total: 35 starts, 23.5 sacks = 0.67 spgs

spgs = sack per game started

In 2003 he started only against the Eagles, but had his only sack against the Browns.
In 2004 made 0.5 sacks against Atlanta, 0.5 against Baltimora, 1 against Dallas, 1 against Chicago, 1 against Detroit, and he didn's start those games.

All the numbers are taken from yahoo.com and giants.com

Jughead10
05-17-2007, 04:29 PM
Nice research Modano. He was never healthy last year when he came back from injury. He had 5 sacks in his first 6 games, and then when he came back only 1 the rest of the season.

Geo
05-17-2007, 04:36 PM
I too would likely give the edge to the Giants' front four, the caveat being how successful Bunkley can be for the Eagles (I think the guy can be great). People may point to Strahan being near the end of his career, or at least with the Giants, but the team already has a great successor in Kiwanuka. Umenyoira and Coefield are young, proven starters, and I like Alford enough to think he can make it work as a starter - he'll likely struggle at the POA as a rookie, but the year's worth of transition will help him afterwards (much like it seems to be with the Rams' Claude Wroten now).

In terms of depth though, the Eagles get the nod and probably would over anybody. What they have done is nothing short of impressive imo. They literally could rotate the entire front four for another line, as though it were hockey, which I think is an impressive prospect for the current league landscape. And they've brought in guys who either have proven to be somewhat successful in similar defenses or look to be successful in their particular defense. I'm interested in seeing if and how the Eagles handle sending a barrage of quick lineman at opponents.

Jughead10
05-17-2007, 04:42 PM
And I think the Giants are trying to get close to that point where they can just sub guys in like that. Especially in the at the DT position. Robbins, Cofield, and Alford all playing either DT position and constantly rotating with each other should be nice. And hopefully a healthy Justin Tuck will be nice too.

ricky bobby
05-17-2007, 04:46 PM
Our line is extremely quick, but also very small. We'll get to the QB, but I fear that our run defense will struggle as a result. I've always been a big fan of having a 340 pound runstuffer in the middle of the line, we don't have that. Maybe BJ Raji next year?

scottyboy
05-17-2007, 04:51 PM
the loss of Emmons just makes the Giants defense that much better

ricky bobby
05-17-2007, 04:52 PM
I've made a little research

Osi's Stats

2006: 11 starts, 6 sacks = 0.54 spgs
2005: 16 starts, 14.5 sacks = 0.9 spgs
2004: 7 starts, 3 sacks = 0.42 spgs
2003: 1 starts, 0 sack = 0.0 spgs

Total: 35 starts, 23.5 sacks = 0.67 spgs

spgs = sack per game started

In 2003 he started only against the Eagles, but had his only sack against the Browns.
In 2004 made 0.5 sacks against Atlanta, 0.5 against Baltimora, 1 against Dallas, 1 against Chicago, 1 against Detroit, and he didn's start those games.

All the numbers are taken from yahoo.com and giants.com
Thank you, that's what I was looking for. In other words, Peppers does have greater production.

Flyboy
05-17-2007, 04:53 PM
Just to add some fuel to the fire...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfcfocussaintshavetopdef&prov=tsn&type=lgns

Jughead10
05-17-2007, 04:54 PM
Our line is extremely quick, but also very small. We'll get to the QB, but I fear that our run defense will struggle as a result. I've always been a big fan of having a 340 pound runstuffer in the middle of the line, we don't have that. Maybe BJ Raji next year?

I doubt it. Under Spags we may never have a true nose tackle.

Jughead10
05-17-2007, 04:55 PM
Thank you, that's what I was looking for. In other words, Peppers does have greater production.

Ever so slightly. Jeez. I don't agree with Number10, I think Peppers is better. But he just isn't this be all end all DE everyone makes him out to be. The difference between him and Osi isn't as great as everyone thinks it is.

Jughead10
05-17-2007, 04:56 PM
Just to add some fuel to the fire...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfcfocussaintshavetopdef&prov=tsn&type=lgns

Although it says when healthy, Osi and Strahan are the best.

Geo
05-17-2007, 05:33 PM
I doubt it. Under Spags we may never have a true nose tackle.
I don't pretend to know what Sprags thinks, but I doubt he has final say when it comes to drafting/signing personnel over Reese (who looks promising in that role as I noted in my NFC East write-up) and the next head coach. So it may be more of a concerted effort on the team's part to be a speed-based defense.

21ST
05-17-2007, 05:46 PM
Will Smith by a nice margin

Jughead10
05-17-2007, 07:48 PM
I don't pretend to know what Sprags thinks, but I doubt he has final say when it comes to drafting/signing personnel over Reese (who looks promising in that role as I noted in my NFC East write-up) and the next head coach. So it may be more of a concerted effort on the team's part to be a speed-based defense.

Well we don't have nose tackle now. We had one on our roster last year which was Cofield. Well actually two but Seawright never played and is no lock to even make the team this year. And this year we shifting Cofield back to his more natural position at the 3 technique. Spags system has no true nose tackle.

BlindSite
05-17-2007, 08:33 PM
I thought spags ran a one gap only system like Jim Mora Ran in atlanta?

NickBam
05-17-2007, 08:51 PM
The Fresh Prince of Nawlins

cunningham06
05-17-2007, 09:08 PM
Our line is extremely quick, but also very small. We'll get to the QB, but I fear that our run defense will struggle as a result. I've always been a big fan of having a 340 pound runstuffer in the middle of the line, we don't have that. Maybe BJ Raji next year?

I remember last offseason all the Giants fans were really high on Jonas Seawright. Is he still on the team?

Giantsfan1080
05-17-2007, 10:17 PM
I remember last offseason all the Giants fans were really high on Jonas Seawright. Is he still on the team?

Yes he's still on the team but that might change after camp.

Auron
05-18-2007, 01:54 AM
Really I don't think you can go wrong with either one. Both are young and rising stars at the position.

As a Saints fan I'm a bit biased towards Smith. He brings a fierce rush off the edge and is very powerful, he can bullrush effectively and drive back blockers. He's also is pretty stout at the point to play the run. He has a great Swim move, and does a good job at lowering his pad level, and getting under OTs. Also he does a good job of staying home and not biting on play action, and misdirection.

Here's a Highlight vid of him. Will Smith (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WODny0-fPoI)

Flyboy
05-18-2007, 01:59 AM
I mark out for the Smith bicep kiss, I'm not going to lie.

BlindSite
05-18-2007, 02:54 AM
I mark out for the Smith bicep kiss, I'm not going to lie.

Dude that chick in your picture, from Greys Anatomy, could play defensive end.

Flyboy
05-18-2007, 03:53 AM
Hating on my girl can earn you negative rep.

...

Not really, but still.

ricky bobby
05-18-2007, 10:34 AM
I remember last offseason all the Giants fans were really high on Jonas Seawright. Is he still on the team?
Jonas is an absolute beast.

He walked down the street one time with an erection.... There were no survivors.

I'm opening a bad can of worms here.

Vikes99ej
05-18-2007, 10:40 AM
Just to add some fuel to the fire...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfcfocussaintshavetopdef&prov=tsn&type=lgns

Allright!!! Vikings @ 14!!! That's about 15 spots higher than they should be.

Acreboy
05-18-2007, 10:42 AM
Although it says when healthy, Osi and Strahan are the best.Well too bad being healthy has to do with production and neither can stay healthy.

Will Smith (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WODny0-fPoI)He's already my second favorite Saint Awesome music for the vid too

Jughead10
05-18-2007, 10:47 AM
Well too bad being healthy has to do with production and neither can stay healthy.

I could give you Strahan. People really don't know anything about Osi like they pretend to. That was his only significant injury of his career last year. There is no reason to say he can't stay healthy. Thats like saying Colston can't stay healthy.

Acreboy
05-18-2007, 10:55 AM
I could give you Strahan. People really don't know anything about Osi like they pretend to. That was his only significant injury of his career last year. There is no reason to say he can't stay healthy. Thats like saying Colston can't stay healthy.I'll shoot it straight with you. I think Osi/Mathias will be a better duo than Osi/Michael

BTW, what kind of injury did Osi have?

Jughead10
05-18-2007, 10:56 AM
I'll shoot it straight with you. I think Osi/Mathias will be a better duo than Osi/Michael

BTW, what kind of injury did Osi have?

Hip flexor.

Flyboy
05-18-2007, 11:39 AM
I'll shoot it straight with you. I think Osi/Mathias will be a better duo than Osi/Michael

You know Kiwi is moving to the OLB spot, right?