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RonMexico
05-18-2007, 05:09 PM
I saw this

http://fannation.com/blogs/post/14552?cnn=yes


and it was a terrible list imo. I cant believe that Vick and Romo are so high.


Also how can they possibly say that Jon Kitna and Alex Smith are better then Eli Manning. People really underrate Eli Manning. Trent Green also got disrespected pretty bad. he was very good outside last year. Here's my list

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Ben Roethlisberger
9. Jay Cutler
10. Brett Favre
11. Eli Manning
12. Philip Rivers
13. Chad Pennington
14. Vince Young
15. Matt Leinart
16. Michael Vick
17. Tony Romo
18. Trent Green (assuming he's a Dolphin)
19. Steve McNair
20. Alex Smith
21. Jason Campbell
22. Jake Delhomme
23. Jeff Garcia
24. J.P. Losman
25. Byron Leftwich
26. Rex Grossman
27. Jon Kitna
28. Matt Schaub
29. Damon Huard
30. Charlie Frye
31. Tarvaris Jackson
32. Josh McCown


what do you think?

Shiver
05-18-2007, 05:10 PM
The first seven of your list are fine, the rest of it is weak. His list is much better, in my opinion.

islandboy843
05-18-2007, 05:10 PM
Eli Manning shouldn't be that high on the list.

The whole list is bad overall

Bengals1690
05-18-2007, 05:12 PM
Eli Manning shouldn't be on the list.

The whole list is bad overall

fixed it for you

RonMexico
05-18-2007, 05:15 PM
Eli Manning shouldn't be that high on the list.

The whole list is bad overall

on mine or his?


he's a young but proven QB who made the postseason 2 years in a row. And he actually throws the ball a lot and produces. Thats why I have him where I do.

bored of education
05-18-2007, 05:16 PM
DAMON HUARD #29 WTFFFFFFFFFFFF.

If he isin't top 10 then I don't know who is certainly not that bummm Carson Palmer! Switch Eli Manning and Damon Huard then it is a perfect list. lol

The Dynasty
05-18-2007, 05:17 PM
How can Jay Cutler be ranked Higher than Favre. And Call me a Homer But Tarvaris Jackson is better than Fyre.

21ST
05-18-2007, 05:19 PM
Both lists are pretty bad to me, i just dont like either one of them once you get into the middle numbers.

SuperMcGee
05-18-2007, 05:25 PM
Losman a bottom 5 starter in the league? That seems a little ridiculous to me.

Splat
05-18-2007, 05:27 PM
DAMON HUARD #29 WTFFFFFFFFFFFF.

If he isin't top 10 then I don't know who is certainly not that bummm Carson Palmer! Switch Eli Manning and Damon Huard then it is a perfect list. lol

I'm a huge Chiefs fan but Huard is not a top ten QB not even close and Palmer is the 3rd best QB in the NFL right now take your pick Brady or Peyton first but I have Palmer 3rd.

Bengals1690
05-18-2007, 05:30 PM
I'm a huge Chiefs fan but Huard is not a top ten QB not even close and Palmer is the 3rd best QB in the NFL right now take your pick Brady or Peyton first but I have Palmer 3rd.

im 100 percent sure that was sarcasm, Splat.

Splat
05-18-2007, 05:32 PM
im 100 percent sure that was sarcasm, Splat.

It would not be the first time a Chiefs fan said something like that and meant it we have some of the biggest homer fans in the NFL.

Bengals1690
05-18-2007, 05:34 PM
It would not be the first time a Chiefs fan said something like that and meant it we have some of the biggest homer fans in the NFL.

your right. youre right underneath NFC East fans.

ninerfan
05-18-2007, 05:37 PM
how are Leinart, Cutler and VY ranked so high ? I mean come on they havent even started a full season yet

Paranoidmoonduck
05-18-2007, 05:49 PM
I don't like either list so I figured I'd give this a crack.

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Philip Rivers
9. Ben Roethlisberger
10. Steve McNair
11. Jake Delhomme
12. Jay Cutler
13. Michael Vick
14. Alex Smith
15. Tony Romo
16. Brett Favre
17. Trent Green (again, assuming he ends up starting for Miami)
18. JP Losman
19. Vince Young
20. Chad Pennington
21. Damon Huard
22. Jeff Garcia
23. Matt Leinart
24. Eli Manning
25. Jon Kitna
26. Jason Campbell
27. Byron Leftwich
28. Rex Grossman
29. Josh McCown
30. Matt Schaub
31. Tavaris Jackson
32. Charlie Frye

GiantRutgersFan
05-18-2007, 05:51 PM
Alright why doesnt someone explain to me how Alex Smith is better then Eli Manning?


Its ridiculous to say that, yet you clowns truly think that is true.

Eli Manning should in no way be below #20 on anyones list.... thats proposturious

Paranoidmoonduck
05-18-2007, 05:53 PM
Alright why doesnt someone explain to me how Alex Smith is better then Eli Manning?


Its ridiculous to say that, yet you clowns truly think that is true.

Eli Manning should in no way be below #20 on anyones list.... thats proposturious

I just like Smith more. He did just as well with far less last year than Eli.

Bengals1690
05-18-2007, 05:53 PM
Alright why doesnt someone explain to me how Alex Smith is better then Eli Manning?


Its ridiculous to say that, yet you clowns truly think that is true.

Eli Manning should in no way be below #20 on anyones list.... thats proposturious

where would you rank him, GRF?

Phrost
05-18-2007, 05:53 PM
I think Big Ben is overrated. It will become evident that he depends on a GREAT running game and supporting cast.

Jimmy
05-18-2007, 05:54 PM
cutler definatly doesnt deserve #9 yet
funny list

Phrost
05-18-2007, 05:57 PM
cutler definatly doesnt deserve #9 yet
funny list

INSAINEITY!!(In connection to your sig, I am from C-Bus and my HS played Brandon...he raped us)

Anyways about Cutler. WAY too high, it is funny though.

ninerfan
05-18-2007, 05:58 PM
Clearly the top 3 are no brainers - Manning, Brady and Palmer, Brees is probably a clear no.4 so the real question is who is 5-10 ?

Phrost
05-18-2007, 06:00 PM
Clearly the top 3 are no brainers - Manning, Brady and Palmer, Brees is probably a clear no.4 so the real question is who is 5-10 ?

I agree, Palmer>Brees, for now.

As for 5-10

McNabb
Bulger
...
...
...
Wow the QB talent depth in the NFL is garbage!

ricky bobby
05-18-2007, 06:00 PM
Eli Manning at #11 and above Rivers. :)

Very nice, happy times.

Phrost
05-18-2007, 06:08 PM
Eli Manning at #11 and above Rivers. :)

Very nice, happy times.

TRON GUY!!!!1!

LMAO!

http://www.tronguy.net/

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4/darthjango1/finalofff.jpg
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4/darthjango1/042004_tron.jpg
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4/darthjango1/finaloffr.jpg
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4/darthjango1/63530.jpg

GiantRutgersFan
05-18-2007, 06:17 PM
where would you rank him, GRF?

Eli or Smith?

Nobody is in a particular order except Eli Manning and Alex Smith.

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Carson Palmer
Donovan McNabb
Marc Bulger
Matt Hasselbeck
Ben Roethlisberger

9. Eli Manning


Jay Cutler
Brett Favre
Philip Rivers
Chad Pennington
Vince Young
Matt Leinart
Michael Vick
Jason Campbell

18. Alex Smith

49erfaithful
05-18-2007, 06:32 PM
Eli or Smith?

Nobody is in a particular order except Eli Manning and Alex Smith.

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Carson Palmer
Donovan McNabb
Marc Bulger
Matt Hasselbeck
Ben Roethlisberger

9. Eli Manning


Jay Cutler
Brett Favre
Philip Rivers
Chad Pennington
Vince Young
Matt Leinart
Michael Vick
Jason Campbell

18. Alex Smith

how is Jason Campell a better starer than Smith?

SFbear
05-18-2007, 06:36 PM
Rex Grossman will be a top ten QB this year.

<ducks for cover>

Phrost
05-18-2007, 06:38 PM
<ducks for cover>

Thats good cause you were about to get shot lol.

GiantRutgersFan
05-18-2007, 06:43 PM
how is Jason Campell a better starer than Smith?

typo my bad.

49erfaithful
05-18-2007, 06:48 PM
typo my bad.

oh, had me wondering on that one

Borat
05-18-2007, 06:50 PM
Eli or Smith?

Nobody is in a particular order except Eli Manning and Alex Smith.

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Carson Palmer
Donovan McNabb
Marc Bulger
Matt Hasselbeck
Ben Roethlisberger

9. Eli Manning


Jay Cutler
Brett Favre
Philip Rivers
Chad Pennington
Vince Young
Matt Leinart
Michael Vick
Jason Campbell

18. Alex Smith

GRF! You still hating on Alex Smith? Get over it dude.

sweetness34
05-18-2007, 06:50 PM
Thats good cause you were about to get shot lol.

Just wait, it'll happen. :D

critesy
05-18-2007, 07:28 PM
whose josh mccown starting for...i thought he was WR now, hah...

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-18-2007, 07:48 PM
I'll give this a shot...

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Marc Bulger
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Philip Rivers
9. Ben Roethlisberger (assuming he can rebound from last year's woes)
10. Steve McNair
11. Eli Manning
12. Brett Favre
13. Chad Pennington
14. Tony Romo
15. Matt Leinart
16. Jay Cutler
17. J.P. Losman
18. Vince Young
19. Jake Delhomme
20. Alex Smith
21. Trent Green
22. Jeff Garcia
23. Michael Vick
24. Byron Leftwich
25. Damon Huard
26. Jon Kitna
27. Rex Grossman
28. Jason Campbell
29. Matt Schaub
30. Charlie Frye
31. Josh McCown
32. Tarvaris Jackson


Eh... ranking #10 to about #25 is pretty hard.

Green Bay Scat
05-18-2007, 07:59 PM
I know Favre is on the downend and plain old end of his career, but how can his still be that low on any? Most people look at career wins for a starter and hes near the top, 2 away. I love Jay Cutler, but no way in hell, as of RIGHT NOW he is better than favre stater wise. Remember experience does help, plus its not like Farve has a lot to work with these last few years. All these list seem more of Potential wise other than actually the good QBs, after 5 of course. You put Favre in SD insted of Rivers, the **** would hit the fan

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-18-2007, 08:01 PM
I think Favre is still a fringe top 10 QB, but that's mainly due to the overall poor quality of starting QB's in the league at this point.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-18-2007, 08:02 PM
I saw this

http://fannation.com/blogs/post/14552?cnn=yes


and it was a terrible list imo. I cant believe that Vick and Romo are so high.


Also how can they possibly say that Jon Kitna and Alex Smith are better then Eli Manning. People really underrate Eli Manning. Trent Green also got disrespected pretty bad. he was very good outside last year. Here's my list

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Ben Roethlisberger
9. Jay Cutler
10. Brett Favre
11. Eli Manning
12. Philip Rivers
13. Chad Pennington
14. Vince Young
15. Matt Leinart
16. Michael Vick
17. Tony Romo
18. Trent Green (assuming he's a Dolphin)
19. Steve McNair
20. Alex Smith
21. Jason Campbell
22. Jake Delhomme
23. Jeff Garcia
24. J.P. Losman
25. Byron Leftwich
26. Rex Grossman
27. Jon Kitna
28. Matt Schaub
29. Damon Huard
30. Charlie Frye
31. Tarvaris Jackson
32. Josh McCown


what do you think?

I like your's for having Cutler at 9 :)

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-18-2007, 08:06 PM
I know Favre is on the downend and plain old end of his career, but how can his still be that low on any? Most people look at career wins for a starter and hes near the top, 2 away. I love Jay Cutler, but no way in hell, as of RIGHT NOW he is better than favre stater wise. Remember experience does help, plus its not like Farve has a lot to work with these last few years. All these list seem more of Potential wise other than actually the good QBs, after 5 of course. You put Favre in SD insted of Rivers, the **** would hit the fan


Eh, I dunno, it's debateable at this point, at least. Cutler, in his 5 games was nothing short of excellent for a rookie(with Big Ben setting the standard at exceptional) and became the first since Marino(I think) to have his first 4 games with 2+ TD passes. Obviously he did have a little more to work with, but it isn't a whole lot more. If this is going into next year, it's possible Cutler will be the better player next year. Favre is declining, Cutler is rising.

bantx
05-18-2007, 08:07 PM
I saw this

http://fannation.com/blogs/post/14552?cnn=yes


and it was a terrible list imo. I cant believe that Vick and Romo are so high.


Also how can they possibly say that Jon Kitna and Alex Smith are better then Eli Manning. People really underrate Eli Manning. Trent Green also got disrespected pretty bad. he was very good outside last year. Here's my list

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Ben Roethlisberger
9. Jay Cutler
10. Brett Favre
11. Eli Manning
12. Philip Rivers
13. Chad Pennington
14. Vince Young
15. Matt Leinart
16. Michael Vick
17. Tony Romo
18. Trent Green (assuming he's a Dolphin)
19. Steve McNair
20. Alex Smith
21. Jason Campbell
22. Jake Delhomme
23. Jeff Garcia
24. J.P. Losman
25. Byron Leftwich
26. Rex Grossman
27. Jon Kitna
28. Matt Schaub
29. Damon Huard
30. Charlie Frye
31. Tarvaris Jackson
32. Josh McCown


what do you think?


umm phillip rivers > eli.... carson palmer > drew brees and cutler is not top 10...

i like this list better
I'll give this a shot...

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Marc Bulger
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Philip Rivers
9. Ben Roethlisberger (assuming he can rebound from last year's woes)
10. Steve McNair
11. Eli Manning
12. Brett Favre
13. Chad Pennington
14. Tony Romo
15. Matt Leinart
16. Jay Cutler
17. J.P. Losman
18. Vince Young
19. Jake Delhomme
20. Alex Smith
21. Trent Green
22. Jeff Garcia
23. Michael Vick
24. Byron Leftwich
25. Damon Huard
26. Jon Kitna
27. Rex Grossman
28. Jason Campbell
29. Matt Schaub
30. Charlie Frye
31. Josh McCown
32. Tarvaris Jackson


Eh... ranking #10 to about #25 is pretty hard.

awfullyquiet
05-18-2007, 08:16 PM
this is ridiculous. the top five is pretty easy. and i really don't like ben as #10. pennington gets flack, but he's the bionic man. and any homer that says VY is better than Vick is just that. Vick has his game down to a science. Anything that VY does well I think isn't due to his poise as much as jeff fisher's awesomeness. He's good. But he's no Vick yet. (and i don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing)

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Marc Bulger
6. Matt Hasselbeck
7. Donovan McNabb
8. Philip Rivers
9. Brett Favre
10. Ben Roethlisberger
11. Chad Pennington
12. Steve McNair
13. Jake Delhomme
14. Matt Leinart
15. Jay Cutler
16. Eli Manning
17. Alex Smith
18. Michael Vick
19. Rex Grossman
20. J.P. Losman
21. Trent Green
22. Jeff Garcia
23. Tony Romo
24. Byron Leftwich
25. Damon Huard
26. Vince Young
27. Jason Campbell
28. Jon Kitna
29. Matt Schaub
30. Josh McCown
31. Charlie Frye
32. Tarvaris Jackson

EdReedUnstoppable
05-18-2007, 08:21 PM
I saw this

http://fannation.com/blogs/post/14552?cnn=yes


and it was a terrible list imo. I cant believe that Vick and Romo are so high.


Also how can they possibly say that Jon Kitna and Alex Smith are better then Eli Manning. People really underrate Eli Manning. Trent Green also got disrespected pretty bad. he was very good outside last year. Here's my list

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Ben Roethlisberger
9. Jay Cutler
10. Brett Favre
11. Eli Manning
12. Philip Rivers
13. Chad Pennington
14. Vince Young
15. Matt Leinart
16. Michael Vick
17. Tony Romo
18. Trent Green (assuming he's a Dolphin)
19. Steve McNair
20. Alex Smith
21. Jason Campbell
22. Jake Delhomme
23. Jeff Garcia
24. J.P. Losman
25. Byron Leftwich
26. Rex Grossman
27. Jon Kitna
28. Matt Schaub
29. Damon Huard
30. Charlie Frye
31. Tarvaris Jackson
32. Josh McCown


what do you think?


Josh McCown is better than Tarvaris, Kitna, and Schaub.

And Alex Smith, Jason Campbell, and J.P. Losman are all better than McNair.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-18-2007, 08:30 PM
LOL, you're too hard on McNair, man!

Ewing
05-18-2007, 08:37 PM
LOL @ Eli ahead of Vince and McNair

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-18-2007, 08:38 PM
LOL @ Eli ahead of Vince and McNair

LOL @ homerism. At this point, Eli is better than VY.

Ewing
05-18-2007, 08:40 PM
LOL @ homerism. At this point, Eli is better than VY.

He could be better than Vince if Coughlin wasn't his head coach. Just go watch what happened when the Titans played the Giants. Then come back and tell me who the better quarterback is.

GB12
05-18-2007, 08:43 PM
LOL @ Eli ahead of Vince and McNair

51% completion %, 12 TDs to 13 INTs, and a whopping 66 QB rating. Oh yeah Vince is a god.

Boston
05-18-2007, 08:44 PM
51% completion %, 12 TDs to 13 INTs, and a whopping 66 QB rating. Oh yeah Vince is a god.

Ooh. But he's a winner.

bantx
05-18-2007, 08:46 PM
as much as i hate eli vince isnt better than eli right now, but will be.

Ewing
05-18-2007, 08:46 PM
51% completion %, 12 TDs to 13 INTs, and a whopping 66 QB rating. Oh yeah Vince is a god.

Yeah because stats mean everything and if we are doing stats you are leaving out his rushing stats. 552 yards and 7 TDs. Both of which are rookie records for a quarterback. You think quarterback play is all about how good your QB rating is? There's a lot more factored into it.

Remind me again. Who won rookie of the year?

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-18-2007, 08:48 PM
He could be better than Vince if Coughlin wasn't his head coach. Just go watch what happened when the Titans played the Giants. Then come back and tell me who the better quarterback is.

Eli has his ups and downs. His game against the Saints last season was one of the worst I've ever seen a QB play. He single handedly made our D look dominant. AT THIS POINT, he's still a better QB than Vince Young.

Edit - Just checked up on Eli's game against the Saints, and DAMN. Take away the early long TD pass to Burress when Fred Thomas got burnt (shocker, I know), and he was 8 for 24 (33%) for 19 yards and an INT.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-18-2007, 08:52 PM
As of right now, I think Eli's better, and he would definitely be without Coughlin. I hate Coughlin so much, I could write an essay, but I'll spare you. Anyway, VY had an excellent rookie year, no doubt(which is why he won ROY) but his passing was inconsistent and I think teams will find a better way to slow down his runs(they have a year of him on tape) and if they can contain his legs, he'll need to prove he can pass better. Can he do it? I think so. He had some very good games throwing the ball this past season, he just needs to get a bit more consistent. With his legs, he won't need to throw like Peyton to be a great QB, but he will definitely need to throw better than he did. As for Eli, he is also very inconsistent. But his inconsistency is better than Vince's inconsistency, at this point. It's close, and I think unless Eli really comes around, and Coughlin gets axed, I fully expect VY to pass him.

Boston
05-18-2007, 08:53 PM
Yeah because stats mean everything and if we are doing stats you are leaving out his rushing stats. 552 yards and 7 TDs. Both of which are rookie records for a quarterback. You think quarterback play is all about how good your QB rating is? There's a lot more factored into it.

Remind me again. Who won rookie of the year?

You're honestly going to revert to his "ROY" when talking about how good he is? Vince Young is so overrated at this point it's not even funny. The only reason he won rookie of the year was because he was a "winner", and he was an exciting player. QB rating doesn't mean anything, huh? That could be a valid arguement if it was around 70 or 80. But a 66 QB rating and he wins the rookie of the year. That's ridiculous.

sweetness34
05-18-2007, 08:58 PM
Yeah because stats mean everything and if we are doing stats you are leaving out his rushing stats. 552 yards and 7 TDs. Both of which are rookie records for a quarterback. You think quarterback play is all about how good your QB rating is? There's a lot more factored into it.

Remind me again. Who won rookie of the year?

Who got to the SuperBowl?

frisby213
05-18-2007, 08:58 PM
I'll try...

GREAT

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Donovan McNabb

GOOD

6. Marc Bulger
7. Philip Rivers
8. Ben Roethlesberger
9. Matt Hasselbeck
10. Chad Pennington

AVERAGE

11. Jay Cutler
12. Tony Romo
13. Steve McNair
14. Vince Young
15. Matt Leinart
16. Trent Green
17. Eli Manning
18. Jeff Garcia
19. Brett Favre
20. Mike Vick
21. Byron Leftwich

POOR (or just too unexperienced)

22. Alex Smith
23. Jake Delhomme
24. J.P. Losman
25. Damon Huard
26. Rex Grossman

BAD (should be a backup QB)

27. Josh McCown
28. Jason Campbell
29. John Kitna
30. Matt Schaub
31. Tavaris Jackson
32. Charlie Frye



so what do you guys think? it's not perfect....but I think it's pretty decent.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-18-2007, 08:59 PM
To call J.P. Losman poor just means that you didn't see him play last year.

He progressed VERY nicely, and did so without jack at WR after Lee Evans.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-18-2007, 09:01 PM
Other than Losman(and I don't agree with Smith being under "poor", but agree with his placement, more or less, just wrong heading), it's not that bad of a list. Obviously any list is gonna have flaws, since nobody here can watch many games of all 32 QBs.

frisby213
05-18-2007, 09:01 PM
To call J.P. Losman poor just means that you didn't see him play last year.

He progressed VERY nicely, and did so without jack at WR after Lee Evans.

If you hadn't noticed, I included (or just too inexperienced) after POOR for that VERY reason. I can't justify putting him above the people ahead of him, because he's too young. The only exceptions were the big 3 drafted the same year: Vince, Leinart, and Cutler.

...well, and Romo, too, I suppose. But he, unlike JP, has the benefit of playing on a better team.

frisby213
05-18-2007, 09:02 PM
Other than Losman(and I don't agree with Smith being under "poor", but agree with his placement, more or less, just wrong heading), it's not that bad of a list. Obviously any list is gonna have flaws, since nobody here can watch many games of all 32 QBs.

Yeah, again, I like Alex Smith a lot and think he has great potential. He falls under the "too inexperienced" part of the POOR listing. Sorry that wasn't clear enough.

Ewing
05-18-2007, 09:02 PM
You're honestly going to revert to his "ROY" when talking about how good he is? Vince Young is so overrated at this point it's not even funny. The only reason he won rookie of the year was because he was a "winner", and he was an exciting player. QB rating doesn't mean anything, huh? That could be a valid arguement if it was around 70 or 80. But a 66 QB rating and he wins the rookie of the year. That's ridiculous.

So you don't think it's impressive that a guy who was supposed to take three years to start not only wins Rookie Of The Year but becomes the leader of his team? A rookie quarterback being the leader of his team is unheard of. You're completely leaving out the mental side of football. Without Vince Young the Titans would have won three games at best. He single-handedly brought that team from the gutter to the near playoffs. I'm not saying he's top five or top ten but he's top fifteen for sure and a better player than Eli Manning at this point.

Ewing
05-18-2007, 09:04 PM
Who got to the SuperBowl?

The Bears and Colts, neither of which Eli Manning plays for.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-18-2007, 09:04 PM
If you hadn't noticed, I included (or just too inexperienced) after POOR for that VERY reason. I can't justify putting him above the people ahead of him, because he's too young. The only exceptions were the big 3 drafted the same year: Vince, Leinart, and Cutler.

...well, and Romo, too, I suppose. But he, unlike JP, has the benefit of playing on a better team.

So, VY, Leinart and Cutler SHOULDN'T be unter the "just too inexperienced" list? Losman has started more games than all of those guys.

Losman played well enough last season to bump him up to your "average" list, IMO.

The Legend
05-18-2007, 09:05 PM
Favre Top 10 :)

frisby213
05-18-2007, 09:06 PM
So, VY, Leinart and Cutler SHOULDN'T be unter the "just too inexperienced" list? Losman has started more games than all of those guys.

Losman played well enough last season to bump him up to your "average" list, IMO.

Problem is, I see Jake and Alex Smith as better in terms of quality or potential right now, and I want to have more than like 2 people in my POOR list. Your point is definitely taken though, and that early 20s area was by far the hardest part for me to list.

sweetness34
05-18-2007, 09:07 PM
So you don't think it's impressive that a guy who was supposed to take three years to start not only wins Rookie Of The Year but becomes the leader of his team? A rookie quarterback being the leader of his team is unheard of. You're completely leaving out the mental side of football. Without Vince Young the Titans would have won three games at best. He single-handedly brought that team from the gutter to the near playoffs. I'm not saying he's top five or top ten but he's top fifteen for sure and a better player than Eli Manning at this point.

Who in the world said it'd take 3 years for him to start? Btw, Rex Grossman became a leader early in his career as well as our starting QB, should we make him MVP while we're at it?

Vince has pretty much done everything with his legs. A low 50% completion percentage and a 66.6 QB rating is not to good for calling a guy a top 15 QB.

sweetness34
05-18-2007, 09:07 PM
The Bears and Colts, neither of which Eli Manning plays for.

That wasn't my argument. You said Vince won games, well so did Rex.

frisby213
05-18-2007, 09:10 PM
That wasn't my argument. You said Vince won games, well so did Rex.

No, the Bears' defense won games.

Ewing
05-18-2007, 09:13 PM
Who in the world said it'd take 3 years for him to start? Btw, Rex Grossman became a leader early in his career as well as our starting QB, should we make him MVP while we're at it?

Vince has pretty much done everything with his legs. A low 50% completion percentage and a 66.6 QB rating is not to good for calling a guy a top 15 QB.

Just about every analyst in the football world said it would take three years. Rex Grossman was never the leader of the Bears. That's has and always will be Brian Urlacher until he retires. Did I say Vince should be MVP? No, I didn't.

I will agree that Vince does a lot with his legs but how is that a knock against the guy? You don't want him using one of his best talents to win games? I will agree that his passing stats weren't incredible but there's more to being a quarterback than QB Rating. Damon Huard had a better QB Rating than Tom Brady.

That wasn't my argument. You said Vince won games, well so did Rex.

The Bears defense and special teams won those games. Also, who blew the Super Bowl for the Bears? Rex Grossman.

Bengals1690
05-18-2007, 09:13 PM
No, the Bears' defense won games.

and the titans defense had absolultely nothing to do with VY's win


by the "Vince won games" argument, you could claim that Philip Rivers is the best QB in the league, and thats just not the case.

frisby213
05-18-2007, 09:16 PM
and the titans defense had absolultely nothing to do with VY's win


by the "Vince won games" argument, you could claim that Philip Rivers is the best QB in the league, and thats just not the case.

The Bears' defense won in spite of Rex half the time, the other half Rex just played clean-up on what the defense already won. Either way, he was never the REASON they won. When did he ever stage a comeback with 1 minute to go the way Brady and Manning, or even any of the good QBs do? And okay, I didn't watch every Bears game, so maybe he DID do it once.

But the point is, Rex brought nothing to the team. At all.

The Titans, however, won BECAUSE of Vince. They had a decent to good defense, which helped, but Vince was the one doing last second drives, running the ball on 3rd for the 1st, and carrying his team to victory like a quarterback should.

Any new GM who could pick between Rex and Vince, and picked Rex, would be the biggest idiot in the league, and I don't see how you could even argue against that.

Ewing
05-18-2007, 09:18 PM
and the titans defense had absolultely nothing to do with VY's win


by the "Vince won games" argument, you could claim that Philip Rivers is the best QB in the league, and thats just not the case.

The Titans defense finished dead last in the league and the Bears defense finished fifth. The only game the Titans defense won was the game against the Jaguars in week 15.

Look at the talent Philip Rivers has around him and look at the talent Vince Young has. Rivers has the best running back, fullback, tight end, and arguably offensive line in all of football. Almost every quarterback could win with that. It takes a lot of talent to be able to win with Drew Bennett and Travis Henry.

nobodyinparticular
05-18-2007, 09:19 PM
The first page of this thread is a perfect example of people rating "potential" higher than actual production. And everytime we see people do that, we see people get disappointed the next year. The 4 main culprits this year--Young, Rivers, Cutler and Leinart.

frisby213
05-18-2007, 09:21 PM
The Titans defense finished dead last in the league and the Bears defense finished fifth. The only game the Titans defense won was the game against the Jaguars in week 15.

Look at the talent Philip Rivers has around him and look at the talent Vince Young has. Rivers has the best running back, fullback, tight end, and arguably offensive line in all of football. Almost every quarterback could win with that. It takes a lot of talent to be able to win with Drew Bennett and Travis Henry.

Dang, you're right. I thought Tennessee had a defense ranked around 12th or so, boy was I wrong.

Oh well, all it does is strengthen our argument against this other guy. VY wins games. Rex loses them.

Ewing
05-18-2007, 09:23 PM
Dang, you're right. I thought Tennessee had a defense ranked around 12th or so, boy was I wrong.

Oh well, all it does is strengthen our argument against this other guy. VY wins games. Rex loses them.

You can blame it all on Lamont Thompson and Reynaldo Hill.

There's no way in the world anybody who isn't a Bears fan can say Rex is better than Vince. None. If you actually think that then you're a complete idiot who lost money on the Rose Browl.

Bengals1690
05-18-2007, 09:29 PM
The Titans defense finished dead last in the league and the Bears defense finished fifth. The only game the Titans defense won was the game against the Jaguars in week 15.

Look at the talent Philip Rivers has around him and look at the talent Vince Young has. Rivers has the best running back, fullback, tight end, and arguably offensive line in all of football. Almost every quarterback could win with that. It takes a lot of talent to be able to win with Drew Bennett and Travis Henry.

well, you cant say an argument applies to one person and not to another.

frisby213
05-18-2007, 09:32 PM
well, you cant say an argument applies to one person and not to another.

How is that relevant to anything we're saying? What's your point?

Bengals1690
05-18-2007, 09:34 PM
How is that relevant to anything we're saying? What's your point?

im saying that you say : "Vince wins games"
Im saying "So do quarterbacks like Phillip Rivers, Jeff Garcia, and Rex Grossman." that argument doesn make sense. None of the are better than VY, but all oof them won the same/more games.

Ewing
05-18-2007, 09:35 PM
well, you cant say an argument applies to one person and not to another.

Can you not read or something? I'm comparing the talent around Rivers to the talent around Vince. Rivers has incredible talent around him while Vince has jacksquat. Vince was able to win with virtually nothing while Rivers, who I'm not bashing, had LT, Gates, Neal, and possibly the best offensive line in football. Almost every quarterback in the league could win at least twelve games with that team. A select few could lead the Titans to even five wins.

Phrost
05-18-2007, 09:37 PM
Vince Young will be a top 5 QB within 3 years.

frisby213
05-18-2007, 09:38 PM
im saying that you say : "Vince wins games"
Im saying "So do quarterbacks like Phillip Rivers, Jeff Garcia, and Rex Grossman." that argument doesn make sense. None of the are better than VY, but all oof them won the same/more games.

You obviously don't understand the term "X wins games." That saying shows the idea of someone leading his team to victory more often than he should, based on the amount and quality of talent around him.

Saying Philip Rivers wins games is stupid. He has, in terms of on-paper-talent, arguably the best team to work with. Vince does not.

Vince and the Titans win games they shouldn't. They are not an 8-8 team, more like 5-11 or so...But thanks to their QB, they manage to prove the "any given Sunday" rule and show that one strong player can make a difference.

Rex can make a difference too, but in the opposite way. He LOSES games his team should have WON.

Bengals1690
05-18-2007, 09:39 PM
Can you not read or something? I'm comparing the talent around Rivers to the talent around Vince. Rivers has incredible talent around him while Vince has jacksquat. Vince was able to win with virtually nothing while Rivers, who I'm not bashing, had LT, Gates, Neal, and possibly the best offensive line in football. Almost every quarterback in the league could win at least twelve games with that team. A select few could lead the Titans to even five wins.

I can read perfectly fine. If you say "Vince wins games" (even though his stats dont show it...), im sayin so do people like Phillip Rivers, Jeff Garcia, Rex Grossman, Damon Huard, and Jake Delhomme win too, even though none of these quarterbacks have the amount of talent of VY. your argument doesnt make sense.

Bengals1690
05-18-2007, 09:42 PM
You obviously don't understand the term "X wins games." That saying shows the idea of someone leading his team to victory more often than he should, based on the amount and quality of talent around him.

Saying Philip Rivers wins games is stupid. He has, in terms of on-paper-talent, arguably the best team to work with. Vince does not.

Vince and the Titans win games they shouldn't. They are not an 8-8 team, more like 5-11 or so...But thanks to their QB, they manage to prove the "any given Sunday" rule and show that one strong player can make a difference.

Rex can make a difference too, but in the opposite way. He LOSES games his team should have WON.


im pretty sure that "X" player cant win a game by himself. Im also sure that there are 21 other players on a team. Vince Young doesnt do it by himself. I have said numerous times that VY is a better quarterback than Rivers or anyone else i have named, check my post. I am saying your argument doent make sense. So before you can someone else stupid, why dont you check yourself.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-18-2007, 09:44 PM
im pretty sure that "X" player cant win a game by himself. Im also sure that there are 21 other players on a team. Vince Young doesnt do it by himself. I have said numerous times that VY is a better quarterback than Rivers or anyone else i have named, check my post. I am saying your argument doent make sense. So before you can someone else stupid, why dont you check yourself.

This is where you're wrong.

Ewing
05-18-2007, 09:45 PM
I can read perfectly fine. If you say "Vince wins games" (even though his stats dont show it...), im sayin so do people like Phillip Rivers, Jeff Garcia, Rex Grossman, Damon Huard, and Jake Delhomme win too, even though none of these quarterbacks have the amount of talent of VY. your argument doesnt make sense.

That's my ****ing point you goofball! Stats don't show how good Vince actually is. Do you even understand the "So and so wins games" arguement? You have to factor in the talent around the person. I really hope you aren't the example of every Bengals fan on here.

Bengals1690
05-18-2007, 09:46 PM
This is where you're wrong.

11 players on defense + 11 players on offense = 22 players.

Ewing
05-18-2007, 09:47 PM
11 players on defense + 11 players on offense = 22 players.

+ special teams + players who only play in certain packages = more than 22

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-18-2007, 09:49 PM
Bengals, are you saying VY is better than Rivers? I'm a Charger HATER and I can see how wrong that statement is.

frisby213
05-18-2007, 09:50 PM
im pretty sure that "X" player cant win a game by himself. Im also sure that there are 21 other players on a team. Vince Young doesnt do it by himself. I have said numerous times that VY is a better quarterback than Rivers or anyone else i have named, check my post. I am saying your argument doent make sense. So before you can someone else stupid, why dont you check yourself.

First off, I've never called you stupid, or insulted you at all for that matter.

Second, Vince Young is proof that one player CAN take over a game and lead his team to victory. Was he COMPLETELY ALONE in doing it? Well obviously not. But he was still the one responsible, by far. He helps his team outplay the talent they have and overachieve to higher rankings than a Madden ranking, for instance, would illustrate.

Bengals1690
05-18-2007, 09:50 PM
That's my ****ing point you goofball! Stats don't show how good Vince actually is. Do you even understand the "So and so wins games" arguement? You have to factor in the talent around the person. I really hope you aren't the example of every Bengals fan on here.

You are to VY as GRF is to eli. Im not saying that VY is not a better quarterback than Rivers! I am saying that your argument that "He won games" doesnt work.

If a lucky 60 yard game winning field goal was missed and Kiwi completes the sack are we even having this argument? His 8-5 recordcould have just as easily been 6-7.

GB12
05-18-2007, 09:53 PM
Im not saying that VY is not a better quarterback than Rivers!

So you're saying Young is better than Rivers? If so, I think you are dead wrong.

frisby213
05-18-2007, 09:54 PM
You are to VY as GRF is to eli. Im not saying that VY is not a better quarterback than Rivers! I am saying that your argument that "He won games" doesnt work.

If a lucky 60 yard game winning field goal was missed and Kiwi completes the sack are we even having this argument? His 8-5 recordcould have just as easily been 6-7.

In terms of the 60 yard field goal, you're right. He didn't kick it. But he led the comeback, and he got them to that position on the field against a vastly superior team.

I'm not saying that Vince is the SOLE REASON why the Titans win games....but I am saying that he's the reason why they play better than they should, and win games they're expected to lose. Whether or not he's a top 5, top 10, top 20 whatever QB, I don't know...but the kid is great at pulling his team together and leading them to victory, just like he did in college.

Bengals1690
05-18-2007, 09:55 PM
First off, I've never called you stupid, or insulted you at all for that matter.

Second, Vince Young is proof that one player CAN take over a game and lead his team to victory. Was he COMPLETELY ALONE in doing it? Well obviously not. But he was still the one responsible, by far. He helps his team outplay the talent they have and overachieve to higher rankings than a Madden ranking, for instance, would illustrate.

i know what you are saying. I have known all along what you are saying. But i dont understand your argument. If a miracle kick and a sack were completed, the titans were 6-7 with vince as a starter. Still an impressive feat nonetheless, but you guys are acting like he did it himself. The VY **** riding in here is comical. The titans often got lucky, and Vince did nothing at all to help them through the air. i dont understand how someone can have a 50% completion percentage but still "Leads his team to victory". He showed up in crunchtime, but other times in the games he was a non factor.

Ewing
05-18-2007, 09:56 PM
You are to VY as GRF is to eli. Im not saying that VY is not a better quarterback than Rivers! I am saying that your argument that "He won games" doesnt work.

If a lucky 60 yard game winning field goal was missed and Kiwi completes the sack are we even having this argument? His 8-5 recordcould have just as easily been 6-7.

You are to NFLDC what Uwe Boll is to movies. That's a double negative so I assume you are saying Vince is a better quarterback than Rivers. Which is an insane statement that I won't even defend. My arguement is not just "he wins games". My argument is that he plays better than his stats indicate, he's a leader, far ahead of schedule, and brought the Titans out of the gutter.

Actually had the field goal missed the game would have gone to overtime. There's no telling what would have happened there. Had Kiwi sacked Vince then Eli probably would have thrown another lame duck for the secondary to pick off judging by the way he was playing.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-18-2007, 09:56 PM
Bengals, you're really making yourself look dumb. You need to quit while you can.

VY is the #1 reason why the Titans went 8-8. Without his play last season, you're looking at a team that would have been lucky to win 5 games. When people say he wins games, they mean single-handedly. Can't even come close to saying the same about Rivers or Grossman. Also, there are 53 players on an NFL roster; starters aren't the only guys who get PT and contribute. You keep digging yourself deeper and deeper and making yourself look dumber and dumber.

Eli is still better at this point, in my opinion.

frisby213
05-18-2007, 09:57 PM
i know what you are saying. I have known all along what you are saying. But i dont understand your argument. If a miracle kick and a sack were completed, the titans were 6-7 with vince as a starter. Still an impressive feat nonetheless, but you guys are acting like he did it himself. The VY **** riding in here is comical. The titans often got lucky, and Vince did nothing at all to help them through the air. i dont understand how someone can have a 50% completion percentage but still "Leads his team to victory". He showed up in crunchtime, but other times in the games he was a non factor.

EDIT: NVM I'm just reiterating myself.

Bengals1690
05-18-2007, 09:57 PM
So you're saying Young is better than Rivers? If so, I think you are dead wrong.

ok, that is a good point lol. what i meant was he had infinetley more help than VY, of that makes any sense

bantx
05-18-2007, 09:58 PM
vy is a better athlete than rivers

rivers is a better qb than young

leave it at that

Ewing
05-18-2007, 09:59 PM
ok, that is a good point lol. what i meant was he had infinetley more help than rivers, of that makes any sense

Vince had more help than Rivers? Yeah, I'm not even responding to that comment.

Bengals1690
05-18-2007, 10:02 PM
Vince had more help than Rivers? Yeah, I'm not even responding to that comment.

i meant vince. my bad. I see what you all are saying. Vince led his team to more victories than other quarterbacks did because of the fact he had less help. I understand that. But im also saying that lucky plays also played a big role in the games as well. But yea. you guys win.

draftguru151
05-18-2007, 10:21 PM
I can't wait until madden puts in the "will your team to victory" rating, Young will definitely have a 100.

Ewing
05-18-2007, 10:39 PM
I can't wait until madden puts in the "will your team to victory" rating, Young will definitely have a 100.

I can't wait for Madden to put in the "get the wrong quarterback" rating for teams in franchise mode. Miami will have 100 without a doubt.

sweetness34
05-18-2007, 10:44 PM
But the point is, Rex brought nothing to the team. At all.

Except for the fact that he won a game in Minnesota, picked up the defense in St. Louis, and helped out the defense against Seattle in the playoffs.

Sure the defense picked him up some games this year, but he also helped them out as well.

Acreboy
05-18-2007, 11:04 PM
Palmer over McNabb is laughable.

Who Dey
05-19-2007, 12:13 AM
Here they are by career passer rating. Obviously its not everything and some guys will be improving while others will be receding but it gives a general idea to how productive they have been thus far in their career.

1. Tony Romo 95.1
2. Peyton Manning 94.4
3. Carson Palmer 91.5
4. Marc Bulger 91.3
5. Philip Rivers 90.5
6. Chad Pennington 89.3
7. Jay Cutler 88.5
8. Tom Brady 88.4
9. Ben Roethlisberger 87.9
10. Drew Brees 87.5
11. Trent Green 87.5
12. Jeff Garcia 86.4
13. Damon Huard 85.2
14. Donovan McNabb 85.1
15. Matt Hasselbeck 85.1
16. Jake Delhomme 84
17. Steve McNair 83.2
18. Byron Leftwich 80.5
19. JP Losman 77.4
20. Jason Campbell 76.5
21. Jon Kitna 76.1
22. Michael Vick 75.5
23. Matt Leinart 74
24. Eli Manning 73.2
25. Brett Favre 72.7
26. Rex Grossman 72.4
27. Charlie Frye 72.2
28. Josh McCown 72.1
29. Matt Schaub 69.2
30. Vince Young 66.7
31. Alex Smith 65.5
32. Tavaris Jackson 62.5

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-19-2007, 12:16 AM
Yes, finally proof that Cutler is better than Brady! Lol.

GiantRutgersFan
05-19-2007, 12:21 AM
Here they are by career passer rating. Obviously its not everything and some guys will be improving while others will be receding but it gives a general idea to how productive they have been thus far in their career.

1. Tony Romo 95.1
2. Peyton Manning 94.4
3. Carson Palmer 91.5
4. Marc Bulger 91.3
5. Philip Rivers 90.5
6. Chad Pennington 89.3
7. Jay Cutler 88.5
8. Tom Brady 88.4
9. Ben Roethlisberger 87.9
10. Drew Brees 87.5
11. Trent Green 87.5
12. Jeff Garcia 86.4
13. Damon Huard 85.2
14. Donovan McNabb 85.1
15. Matt Hasselbeck 85.1
16. Jake Delhomme 84
17. Steve McNair 83.2
18. Byron Leftwich 80.5
19. JP Losman 77.4
20. Jason Campbell 76.5
21. Jon Kitna 76.1
22. Michael Vick 75.5
23. Matt Leinart 74
24. Eli Manning 73.2
25. Brett Favre 72.7
26. Rex Grossman 72.4
27. Charlie Frye 72.2
28. Josh McCown 72.1
29. Matt Schaub 69.2
30. Vince Young 66.7
31. Alex Smith 65.5
32. Tavaris Jackson 62.5

QB rating is a pretty bad stat. it favors certain types of QBs. Dink and dunk/WCO offenses get rewarded way too much.

Shiver
05-19-2007, 12:42 AM
Any system that rewards David Carr, for his play last year, is a worthless measurement of a QB's play.

GiantRutgersFan
05-19-2007, 12:50 AM
Any system that rewards David Carr, for his play last year, is a worthless measurement of a QB's play.

indeed. There are people who just look at QB rating and think David Carr is good. Theres a lot of them here none the less.

soybean
05-19-2007, 01:19 AM
I think it's hilarious that matt schuab is on that list.

BlindSite
05-19-2007, 01:51 AM
Jake Delhomme is way, way, way underrated right around the league, people forget how good he is in the postseason and when he's got a decent running game.

TitleTown088
05-19-2007, 02:11 AM
Damn, Brett Favre is a good looking man.

TitleTown088
05-19-2007, 02:12 AM
Except for the fact that he won a game in Minnesota, picked up the defense in St. Louis, and helped out the defense against Seattle in the playoffs.

Sure the defense picked him up some games this year, but he also helped them out as well.

Sweetness, Rexy sucks. Give it a rest.

Beans
05-19-2007, 07:16 AM
Chris Simms is the friggin' Bucs starter!

Arg!

Eaglez.Fan
05-19-2007, 09:17 AM
Vince Young should be in the 20's, and the first bunch looks good, after that is iffy.

Ewing
05-19-2007, 09:37 AM
Vince Young should be in the 20's, and the first bunch looks good, after that is iffy.

Let me know when another rookie quarterback leads a team with the leagues worst defense to an 8-8 record. If that isn't impressive then I don't know what is.

AkiliSmith
05-19-2007, 09:55 AM
Palmer over McNabb is laughable.
Is this a joke?

TheMadLionsFan
05-19-2007, 10:25 AM
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger
7. Philip Rivers
8. Ben Roethlesberger
9. Matt Hasselbeck
10. Chad Pennington
11. Steve McNair
12. Brett Favre
13. Tony Romo
14. Jake Delhomme
15. Trent Green
16. Mike Vick
17. J.P. Losman
18. Eli Manning
19. Matt Lienart
20. Jay Cutler
21. Vince Young
22. Alex Smith
23. Byron Leftwhitch
24. John Kitna
25. Matt Schaub
26. Damon Huard
27. Rex Grossman
28. Jeff Garcia
29. Josh McCown
30. Tavarious Jackson
31. Jason Campbell
32. Charlie Fyre

John Kitna isn't god but he is castly underated....how do some of you have Josh McCown ahead of John when Josh was behind John on the depth chart...

BuckNaked
05-19-2007, 10:26 AM
Hooray for Tarvaris Jackson not being last!

Go_Eagles77
05-19-2007, 10:27 AM
I really don't see what Philip Rivers has done to be ahead of McNabb but whatever.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-19-2007, 10:28 AM
Is this a joke?

It's not a joke, Acreboy likes to make ridiculous claims to get people's attention. It used to annoy me to no end; now, I tend to just ignore him.

All in one day, he's said:
- Palmer over McNabb is laughable (maybe debatable, but certainly not laughable)
- Jammal Brown is very overrated (even though he was a first team All-Pro in his first season at LT and Marcus McNeill still gets way more attention)
- Nick Saban is a terrible college recruiter (Ugh... just, ugh...)

TheMadLionsFan
05-19-2007, 10:30 AM
I really don't see what Philip Rivers has done to be ahead of McNabb but whatever.


nothing....they are just homers & morons

frisby213
05-19-2007, 10:38 AM
TPFKA, I looked back on my list and realized you're right. Thus, my list is slightly changed. Again, any feedback is welcome:

GREAT

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Donovan McNabb

GOOD

6. Marc Bulger
7. Philip Rivers
8. Ben Roethlesberger
9. Matt Hasselbeck
10. Chad Pennington

AVERAGE

11. Jay Cutler
12. Tony Romo
13. Steve McNair
14. Vince Young
15. Matt Leinart
16. Trent Green
17. Eli Manning
18. Jeff Garcia
19. Brett Favre
20. Mike Vick
21. Byron Leftwich
22. Alex Smith
23. J.P. Losman

POOR

24. Jake Delhomme
25. Damon Huard
26. Rex Grossman
27. Josh McCown

BAD (should be a backup QB)

28. Jason Campbell
29. John Kitna
30. Matt Schaub
31. Tavaris Jackson
32. Charlie Frye

BuckNaked
05-19-2007, 10:47 AM
TPFKA, I looked back on my list and realized you're right. Thus, my list is slightly changed. Again, any feedback is welcome:

GREAT

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Donovan McNabb

GOOD

6. Marc Bulger
7. Philip Rivers
8. Ben Roethlesberger
9. Matt Hasselbeck
10. Chad Pennington

AVERAGE

11. Jay Cutler
12. Tony Romo
13. Steve McNair
14. Vince Young
15. Matt Leinart
16. Trent Green
17. Eli Manning
18. Jeff Garcia
19. Brett Favre
20. Mike Vick
21. Byron Leftwich
22. Alex Smith
23. J.P. Losman

POOR

24. Jake Delhomme
25. Damon Huard
26. Rex Grossman
27. Josh McCown

BAD (should be a backup QB)

28. Jason Campbell
29. John Kitna
30. Matt Schaub
31. Tavaris Jackson
32. Charlie Frye

You're bad and poor lists are pretty inaccurate. There is no way Delhomme and Grossman are poor, they are at least average. Campbell, in no way is a bad quarterback and neither is Kitna. Frye shouldn't be a starter, but he is not bad. How about you give Jackson and Schaub a chance before you say they can't start in the NFL.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-19-2007, 10:56 AM
I still think your list needs some tweaking. I think you're trying to force some categories.



GREAT

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees

VERY GOOD

5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger

GOOD

7. Philip Rivers
8. Ben Roethlesberger
9. Matt Hasselbeck
10. Chad Pennington

AVERAGE

11. Jay Cutler
12. Tony Romo
13. Steve McNair
14. Vince Young
15. Matt Leinart
16. Trent Green
17. Eli Manning
18. Jeff Garcia
19. Brett Favre
20. Mike Vick
21. Byron Leftwich
22. Alex Smith
23. J.P. Losman
24. Jake Delhomme
25. Damon Huard
26. Rex Grossman

BELOW AVERAGE

27. Josh McCown
28. Jason Campbell
29. John Kitna
30. Matt Schaub
31. Tavaris Jackson
32. Charlie Frye

I did this without changing your order, but I think this is a lot better. There are a lot more average quarterbacks than anything else.

frisby213
05-19-2007, 10:58 AM
You're bad and poor lists are pretty inaccurate. There is no way Delhomme and Grossman are poor, they are at least average. Campbell, in no way is a bad quarterback and neither is Kitna. Frye shouldn't be a starter, but he is not bad. How about you give Jackson and Schaub a chance before you say they can't start in the NFL.

Delhomme cost the Panthers from being the team they were "supposed" to be, in many ways. Chances are, he'll lose his starting job to David Carr in 6-8 games.

Grossman is DEFINITELY poor and I won't even take the time to justify that, because there are already about 30 posts in here saying why he is.

Campbell hasn't done anything in his limited playing time, and there's no way that, as a GM, I would take him over any of the QBs mentioned above him.

Kitna is old, and only had a decent season with the Lions because he's playing for Mike Martz in a pass-happy offense. He, too, could easily lose his starting job this year.

Frye brings nothing to the table. Maybe he didn't have the worst passer-rating in the NFL, but those kind of stats are a poor way of measuring QB play.

Jackson was horrible in the very few games he played, and regardless of whether or not he will get better, you can't justify putting him above others based on pure potential. That's all he is right now, potential. Putting him anything higher than 28 would be a travesty, IMO, although I understand you're obviously a Vikings fan and take that personally.

Schuab was a career backup who got picked up by a desperate Houston team who threw David Carr to the curb to save face, and act like HE was the problem, not themselves as an organization. Like TJ, he has proved nothing (he hasn't even won a game), and has no justification to be put any higher.

Staubach12
05-19-2007, 10:59 AM
I'll take a bite at the apple...

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Matt Hasselbeck
7. Philip Rivers
8. Marc Bulger
9. Steve McNair
10. Brett Favre
11. Ben Roethlesberger
12. Chad Pennington
13. Tony Romo
14. J.P. Losman
15. Trent Green
16. Jake Delhomme
17. Mike Vick
18. Jay Cutler
19. Matt Lienart
20. Damon Huard
21. Alex Smith
22. Eli Manning
23. Jason Campbel
24. Jon Kitna
25. Matt Schaub
26. Vince Young
27. Jeff Garcia
28. Josh McCown
29. Byron Leftwhitch
30. Rex Grossman
31. Charlie Fyre
32. Tavarious Jackson

bearsfan_51
05-19-2007, 10:59 AM
Jeff Garcia has gotten lots of love for a solid 6-7 games. Has everyone forgotten the Cleveland and Detroit disasters? He's a decent system QB but come on....

bearsfan_51
05-19-2007, 11:01 AM
I'll take a bite at the apple...

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Matt Hasselbeck
7. Philip Rivers
8. Marc Bulger
9. Steve McNair
10. Brett Favre
11. Ben Roethlesberger
12. Chad Pennington
13. Tony Romo
14. J.P. Losman
15. Trent Green
16. Jake Delhomme
17. Mike Vick
18. Jay Cutler
19. Matt Lienart
20. Damon Huard
21. Alex Smith
22. Eli Manning
23. Jason Campbel
24. Jon Kitna
25. Matt Schaub
26. Vince Young
27. Jeff Garcia
28. Josh McCown
29. Byron Leftwhitch
30. Rex Grossman
31. Charlie Fyre
32. Tavarious Jackson
Grossman and Byron Leftwich below Josh McCown is absurd.

frisby213
05-19-2007, 11:05 AM
I'll take a bite at the apple...

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Matt Hasselbeck
7. Philip Rivers
8. Marc Bulger
9. Steve McNair
10. Brett Favre
11. Ben Roethlesberger
12. Chad Pennington
13. Tony Romo
14. J.P. Losman
15. Trent Green
16. Jake Delhomme
17. Mike Vick
18. Jay Cutler
19. Matt Lienart
20. Damon Huard
21. Alex Smith
22. Eli Manning
23. Jason Campbel
24. Jon Kitna
25. Matt Schaub
26. Vince Young
27. Jeff Garcia
28. Josh McCown
29. Byron Leftwhitch
30. Rex Grossman
31. Charlie Fyre
32. Tavarious Jackson

Brett at 10? Vince at 26, behind Matt Schaub?? Rex and Byron both in the top 5 worst QBs in the league??

It was decent in some places but there were a lot of really skewed viewpoints, IMO.

Staubach12
05-19-2007, 11:14 AM
Favre is still a premier QB in this league IMO. He did well last year, and I expect a very good year from him. I'm not impressed with VY at all. Yes, he played the leader roll. Yes, he won games. But I'm not here to analyze who is the best leader. I'm looking at QBs, and as far as his play as a QB goes, he was mediocre at best. Another thing about me is that I hate wild inconsistancies. That's Rex and Byron. I believe that a true QB must be consistant, so I really don't like Rex or Byron.

bearsfan_51
05-19-2007, 11:18 AM
You hate wild inconsistancies but you think Brett Favre is still a premier QB?

I question if you've ever watched football.

Brett Favre has thrown 47 interceptions in the last two season compared to 38 touchdowns. It's laughably stupid that he's in anyone's top ten list. Sorry. He's no better than 14th-15th at the very very best.

TheMadLionsFan
05-19-2007, 11:20 AM
Favre is still a premier QB in this league IMO. He did well last year, and I expect a very good year from him. I'm not impressed with VY at all. Yes, he played the leader roll. Yes, he won games. But I'm not here to analyze who is the best leader. I'm looking at QBs, and as far as his play as a QB goes, he was mediocre at best. Another thing about me is that I hate wild inconsistancies. That's Rex and Byron. I believe that a true QB must be consistant, so I really don't like Rex or Byron.


didn't he throw 18 picks last year?.....and Lmao @ you havin Josh ahead of Byron & Grossman.....I'm am not a fan either....but what has Josh done to suggest is better than the aformentioned?.....he sitting behind Kitna last year....and didn't do too much in Arizona...(yes I remember the Minnesota game & the 400 yard passing game)....enlighten me...

Ewing
05-19-2007, 11:23 AM
20. Damon Huard
26. Vince Young

That might be the dumbest thing ever said in the history of NFLDC.

GB12
05-19-2007, 11:25 AM
That might be the dumbest thing ever said in the history of NFLDC.

Why? They both did pretty much the same thing, but Damon had much better numbers and the Chiefs made the playoffs.

Ewing
05-19-2007, 11:28 AM
Why? They both did pretty much the same thing, but Damon had much better numbers and the Chiefs made the playoffs.

You honestly think Damon Huard is a better quarterback than Vince Young? That's just blind hatred in it's purest form. I can't even begin to comprehend how anybody can think that. Huard only started eight games and had a guy set the carries record in the backfield. Huard had an incredible QB Rating last year which further proves my point that it's the most overrated stat in all of sports.

jag
05-19-2007, 11:38 AM
You honestly think Damon Huard is a better quarterback than Vince Young? That's just blind hatred in it's purest form. I can't even begin to comprehend how anybody can think that. Huard only started eight games and had a guy set the carries record in the backfield. Huard had an incredible QB Rating last year which further proves my point that it's the most overrated stat in all of sports.

Just because Vince won some games doesn't mean he's a great QB by any means. Damon Huard won games, and was one of the leagues most efficient passers, which is supposedly what the QB is supposed too do.


And your not one too talk when it comes to "blind hatred in it's purest form", you've shown nothing but "blind hatred" towards the Houston Organization for passing on your idol, and taking arguably the most talented DE to come out since Reggie White.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-19-2007, 11:38 AM
Huard was like 11 TDs:1 INT I think, and that's just amazing. I'm not as high on him as others though, since he's like 35 and has never had any season remotely close to as good as that in his entire life. Not to mention, I didn't really get the "Oh crap we're playing Damon Huard" vibe when we played the Chiefs. I was much more worried about LJ.

Boston
05-19-2007, 11:41 AM
That might be the dumbest thing ever said in the history of NFLDC.

It's either that, or your VY arguements. I haven't decided yet.

TheMadLionsFan
05-19-2007, 11:42 AM
Just because Vince won some games doesn't mean he's a great QB by any means. Damon Huard won games, and was one of the leagues most efficient passers, which is supposedly what the QB is supposed too do.


And your not one too talk when it comes to "blind hatred in it's purest form", you've shown nothing but "blind hatred" towards the Houston Organization for passing on your idol, and taking arguably the most talented DE to come out since Reggie White.

He compared Mario Williams to Reggie White

Ewing
05-19-2007, 11:44 AM
Just because Vince won some games doesn't mean he's a great QB by any means. Damon Huard won games, and was one of the leagues most efficient passers, which is supposedly what the QB is supposed too do.


And your not one too talk when it comes to "blind hatred in it's purest form", you've shown nothing but "blind hatred" towards the Houston Organization for passing on your idol, and taking arguably the most talented DE to come out since Reggie White.

If Huard is so good explain to me why he's been a career backup? Vince has the potential to be one of the best quarterbacks of all-time while Huard has the potential to be warming the bench by week five. You are further proving my point that stats are overrated. Huard had a better QB Rating than Tom Brady, I guess he's better than him to by your logic.

Go watch Week 14 between the Titans and Texans and tell me they made the right the pick. Explain to me how everyone in the stadium can be cheering for the other's team quarterback while the player they drafted can only look like an idiot.

Boston
05-19-2007, 11:47 AM
If Huard is so good explain to me why he's been a career backup? Vince has the potential to be one of the best quarterbacks of all-time while Huard has the potential to be warming the bench by week five. You are further proving my point that stats are overrated. Huard had a better QB Rating than Tom Brady, I guess he's better than him to by your logic.

Go watch Week 14 between the Titans and Texans and tell me they made the right the pick. Explain to me how everyone in the stadium can be cheering for the other's team quarterback while the player they drafted can only look like an idiot.

Ahh. He brought potential into his arguement. As a QB, I would take Huard on my team before I would take Young. Young isn't even a quarterback yet. He's a young, inexperienced kid that's been getting hyped like you wouldn't believe because he's a winner.

Ewing
05-19-2007, 11:48 AM
Ahh. He brought potential into his arguement. As a QB, I would take Huard on my team before I would take Young. Young isn't even a quarterback yet. He's a young, inexperienced kid that's been getting hyped like you wouldn't believe because he's a winner.

So you would take a 35 year old career backup over the NFL Rookie of The Year who set the NFL record for largest fourth quarter comeback ever by a rookie quarterback? Yeah, that makes total sense.

bearsfan_51
05-19-2007, 11:50 AM
Vince has the potential to be one of the best quarterbacks of all-time.
He also has the potential to absolutely suck. I agree I'd probably put Young over Huard but you're not helping yourself here.

ricky bobby
05-19-2007, 11:51 AM
Mine

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger
7. Matt Hasselback
8. Vince Young
9. Chad Pennington
10. Trent Green
11. Philip Rivers
12. Eli Manning
13. Brett Favre
14. Ben Roethlisberger
15. Jay Cutler
16. Matt Leinart
17. Steve McNair
18. Tony Romo
19. Jake Delhomme
20. Alex Smith
21. Damon Huard
22. Jon Kitna
23. Mike Vick
24. Jason Campbell
25. JP Losman
26. Matt Schaub
27. Jeff Garcia
28. Byron Leftwich
29. Rex Grossman
30. Charlie Frye
31. Josh McCown
32. Tavarous Jackson

Boston
05-19-2007, 11:52 AM
So you would take a 35 year old career backup over the NFL Rookie of The Year who set the NFL record for largest fourth quarterback ever by a rookie quarterback? Yeah, that makes total sense.

Yeah... Total sense.

Ewing
05-19-2007, 11:52 AM
He also has the potential to absolutely suck. I agree I'd probably put Young over Huard but you're not helping yourself here.

Yeah, he's either going to be one of the all-time greats or one of the all-time busts. After last season I'm leaning towards the first one, though. I'm not saying Vince is top ten or anything but to say a career backup is better is flatout insane.

Ewing
05-19-2007, 11:54 AM
Yeah... Total sense.

Whoops, I meant largest fourth quarter comeback. Sorry, I didn't get any sleep.

GB12
05-19-2007, 11:59 AM
So you would take a 35 year old career backup over the NFL Rookie of The Year who set the NFL record for largest fourth quarter comeback ever by a rookie quarterback? Yeah, that makes total sense.

Yeah... Total sense.

Well i don't know who the 2-3 largest rookie QBs were, but here's number one.

http://www.cincypost.com/2004/02/21/02-21-2004_jlorenzen.jpg

Ewing
05-19-2007, 12:00 PM
Well i don't know who the 2-3 largest rookie QBs were, but here's number one.

http://www.cincypost.com/2004/02/21/02-21-2004_jlorenzen.jpg

I already gave my reason why I posted that. I didn't get any sleep so shut the **** up.

jag
05-19-2007, 12:01 PM
Yeah, he's either going to be one of the all-time greats or one of the all-time busts. After last season I'm leaning towards the first one, though. I'm not saying Vince is top ten or anything but to say a career backup is better is flatout insane.

Let's put it like this. These rankings are set up for who's better right now, not who will be better long term. I myself am a big VY fan, he was my number 1 QB in that draft, and I think he'll turn out to be one of the games best. But as of this season, I'd rather have Damon Huard start over a young inexperienced Vince Young.

And as to whoever thinks I'm the first too compare Mario Williams talents with Reggie White's, I'm not. He's got just as much Potential at DE, as Vince Young has at QB.

GB12
05-19-2007, 12:02 PM
I already gave my reason why I posted that. I didn't get any sleep so shut the **** up.

I know I saw that. I understood what you ment before you posted your reason. I'm not making fun of you, you don't need to get so touchy about it.

Ewing
05-19-2007, 12:04 PM
Let's put it like this. These rankings are set up for who's better right now, not who will be better long term. I myself am a big VY fan, he was my number 1 QB in that draft, and I think he'll turn out to be one of the games best. But as of this season, I'd rather have Damon Huard start over a young inexperienced Vince Young.

I think you have to factor in current talent and potential. Otherwise guys like Cutler and Rivers wouldn't be too high up on the list after one season. You know Vince has actuall started only one less game in his career than Huard, right?

Ewing
05-19-2007, 12:05 PM
I know I saw that. I understood what you ment before you posted your reason. I'm not making fun of you, you don't need to get so touchy about it.

Alright, well I thought you were just going to turn this into a "LOL LETS FORGET HIS ARGUEMENT BECAUSE HE SCREWED UP ON ONE SENTENCE! " thing. No hard feelings, man.

jag
05-19-2007, 12:09 PM
I think you have to factor in current talent and potential. Otherwise guys like Cutler and Rivers wouldn't be too high up on the list after one season. You know Vince has actuall started only one less game in his career than Huard, right?

I know that, I'm just saying as of now that Huard is the better passer than Vince Young, and I'd rather have him for one year than Vince. But I believe that within the next two years Vince Young should be somewhere in the 8-15 range, but as of now I think he's in the bottom ten as far as being a passer.

Ewing
05-19-2007, 12:12 PM
I know that, I'm just saying as of now that Huard is the better passer than Vince Young, and I'd rather have him for one year than Vince. But I believe that within the next two years Vince Young should be somewhere in the 8-15 range, but as of now I think he's in the bottom ten as far as being a passer.


Yeah but you're only considering passing ability. You have to factor in Vince's legs as it's one of if not his best talent. Leadership, passing ability, running ability, and potential all factored in and it's not even close; Vince is vastly superior to Huard.

jag
05-19-2007, 12:12 PM
And on the Cutler-Rivers thing, they both showed enough in the passing game to be warranted as top 15 QB's. But when you bring in potential there both top ten in the near future.

jag
05-19-2007, 12:18 PM
Yeah but you're only considering passing ability. You have to factor in Vince's legs as it's one of if not his best talent. Leadership, passing ability, running ability, and potential all factored in and it's not even close; Vince is vastly superior to Huard.

I also look at the turnovers they both had, and if I'm not mistaken Vince Young threw more int's than td's which in my mind running doesn't help that a whole lot, though it's something that will only improve with time.

While Huard had the 11/1 td/int ratio which is simply amazing, and don't forget the leadership it takes for a backup to take a team who lost its starting QB early in the year, and lead them too the playoffs.

I'm a fan of both, but I'd take Huard for a one year run over VY.

Mr. Stiller
05-19-2007, 12:27 PM
Bout time Ben Roethlisberger gets some top 10 love.

Tubby
05-19-2007, 12:47 PM
There is no way that Matt Hasselbeck is a worse QB than Marc Bulger.

End of post.

frisby213
05-19-2007, 12:52 PM
There is no way that Matt Hasselbeck is a worse QB than Marc Bulger.

End of post.

Riiiiiiiiight........

Achilles33
05-19-2007, 01:07 PM
Roethlisbergr, Cutler, and Manning that high? Laughable.

TitleTown088
05-19-2007, 01:15 PM
What a joke. Favre should easily be number 1.

AkiliSmith
05-19-2007, 01:15 PM
Bout time Ben Roethlisberger gets some top 10 love.
I'd put Ben in the average category. There is no reason he should sniff top 10, especially after last year's horrible performance.

devinhester=R.O.Y 2006
05-19-2007, 01:32 PM
I'd put Ben in the average category. There is no reason he should sniff top 10, especially after last year's horrible performance.

Well he did almost die twice before last year, so I think that we can cut him some slack.

TheMadLionsFan
05-19-2007, 01:43 PM
Well he did almost die twice before last year, so I think that we can cut him some slack.

lol........

AkiliSmith
05-19-2007, 01:58 PM
Well he did almost die twice before last year, so I think that we can cut him some slack.

He was average before his "near death" experience. Every time Ben loses or sucks, he has some injury excuse. He is carried by his team, and that's not what you would classify as a good quarterback.

frisby213
05-19-2007, 02:06 PM
He was average before his "near death" experience. Every time Ben loses or sucks, he has some injury excuse. He is carried by his team, and that's not what you would classify as a good quarterback.

With all due respect, you're a Bengals fan, so anything you say about Big Ben would have to be taken with a grain of salt. Kind of like me complaining about a Patriot...maybe the points are valid, but it's tough to look beyond what appears to be blind homerism.

Don't take this comment the wrong way, I agree in some ways, and I'm not calling you out or anything....

AkiliSmith
05-19-2007, 02:11 PM
With all due respect, you're a Bengals fan, so anything you say about Big Ben would have to be taken with a grain of salt. Kind of like me complaining about a Patriot...maybe the points are valid, but it's tough to look beyond what appears to be blind homerism.

Don't take this comment the wrong way, I agree in some ways, and I'm not calling you out or anything....

I do admit that I despise the Steelers with all my being, but I know how to take off the homer glasses.

Staubach12
05-19-2007, 02:47 PM
You hate wild inconsistancies but you think Brett Favre is still a premier QB?

I question if you've ever watched football.

Brett Favre has thrown 47 interceptions in the last two season compared to 38 touchdowns. It's laughably stupid that he's in anyone's top ten list. Sorry. He's no better than 14th-15th at the very very best.

I believe in Favre. Call me stupid, call me whatever you want; but I think that Favre can still play in this league, and do it very well. He's one of the best QBs to ever play the game. Many thought he was washed up two years ago, and now I see him coming back. A few years ago, I think he was just arrogant. He thought he was too good to be coached, and his game suffered because of it. Watch out this year. I expect good things. Maybe I'm clinging to his former greatness, who knows.

Boston
05-19-2007, 02:48 PM
I believe in Favre. Call me stupid, call me whatever you want; but I think that Favre can still play in this league, and do it very well. He's one of the best QBs to ever play the game. Many thought he was washed up two years ago, and now I see him coming back. A few years ago, I think he was just arrogant. He thought he was too good to be coached, and his game suffered because of it. Watch out this year. I expect good things. Maybe I'm clinging to his former greatness, who knows.

Sherman didn't have the balls to try and coach Favre. McCarthy does.

Phrost
05-19-2007, 02:56 PM
With all due respect, you're a Bengals fan, so anything you say about Big Ben would have to be taken with a grain of salt. Kind of like me complaining about a Patriot...maybe the points are valid, but it's tough to look beyond what appears to be blind homerism.

Don't take this comment the wrong way, I agree in some ways, and I'm not calling you out or anything....

Fine Bucs fan saying it, His hardcore running game/QB easy offense and amazing defense carried him. Or does my bad rep nullify that too?

Sniper
05-19-2007, 03:36 PM
Dear sweet baby Jesus there is so much mediocrity at the QB position it is absurd.

My top 10, because all the other ones are mediocre.

1a. Tom Brady
1b. Peyton Manning
3. Carson Palmer
4. Donovan McNabb
5. Drew Brees
6. Marc Bulger
7. Philip Rivers
8. Matt Hasselbeck
9. Ben Roethlisberger
10. Vince Young (I'm a sucker for QBs that find a way to win games they have no business winning)

Sniper
05-19-2007, 03:37 PM
With the Young at #10 I put, I'm not saying I'm right or wrong as to where he should be. I just admire him for the way he's always won games he wasn't supposed to

Acreboy
05-19-2007, 03:37 PM
Is this a joke?When healthy McNabb is an MVP candidate every year. Palmer never is.

Take the homer shades off.

Dear sweet baby Jesus there is so much mediocrity at the QB position it is absurd.

My top 10, because all the other ones are mediocre.

1a. Tom Brady
1b. Peyton Manning
3. Carson Palmer
4. Donovan McNabb
5. Drew Brees
6. Marc Bulger
7. Philip Rivers
8. Matt Hasselbeck
9. Ben Roethlisberger
10. Vince Young (I'm a sucker for QBs that find a way to win games they have no business winning)How can you put Palmer and McNabb over Brees?

TheChampIsHere
05-19-2007, 03:59 PM
I'm a huge Chiefs fan but Huard is not a top ten QB not even close and Palmer is the 3rd best QB in the NFL right now take your pick Brady or Peyton first but I have Palmer 3rd.

Palmer is great and its hard to leave him out of the top 3, but after what Brees did last year, its hard to deny him...

Rank em how you want but clearly Peyton, Brady, Brees, Palmer and McNabb make up the top 5.

my top 32:
1. Peyton - coming off superbowl season, cant deny him anymore
2. Brady - 3 rings, great player
3. Palmer - Great up and coming QB who will be getting a ring soon
4. Brees - Coming off MVP type season just a great QB in all aspects
5. McNabb - hes got injury problems, but when healthy he is one of the best players in this league.
6. Hasselbeck - coming off a down season but he has established himself
7. Rivers - yes hes only been starting 1 year but look what he did.
8. Roethlisberger - hes coming off a down year but its hard to ignore what he did in his first 2 years and its understandable why he struggled last year
9. Bulger - this guy puts up big numbers every year and deserves recognition for it
10. Vick - his passing needs some work but he is still one of the best playmakers in this league and poor offensive schemes and receivers who cant catch a cold dont help anything.
11. Pennington - polished passer who really excells in the WCO
12. Vince - won OROY because of playmaking skills, now he needs to develop as a passer.
13. Cutler - Great young QB who showed us a lot last year.
14. McNair - solid veteran who does well in pressure situations
15. Eli Manning - He really has struggled but he has also shown flashes
16. Leinart - Solid rookie season he should be a starter for a long time
17. Leftwich - one of the most underated QBs in this league, if he could just stay healthy he would be top 10 easily.
18. Alex Smith - really played well last year and is looking like hes gonna be a solid QB
19. Romo - He really struggled at the end of last year but he didnt make the pro bowl for no reason.
20. Lossman - showed major improvement last year
21. Delhomme - really was awful last year and in the NFC championship game the year before but he has been a starter for a while and has had some success in his career.
22. Culpepper/Trent Green - If Culpepper can cut down on the turnovers and stay healthy he can skyrocket on this list. Green was an overrated system QB in his good years in KC and he was awful last year.
23. Jason Campbell - Coming off a solid debut season
24. Huard - He really played well last year and they might have had some success in the playoffs if they would have started him over Trent Green.
25. Schaub - Showed flashes in ATL and should be solid player in Kubiaks offense, but he is entirely unproven
26. Garcia - an over the hill system QB with a noodle arm but you cant deny the string of wins he put together last year.
27. Brady Quinn/Frye - Frye sucks and I would put it lower but I expect Quinn to grab the starting job very soon and he should be good and could easily climb up this list in a hurry.
28. Grossman - His bad streaks are just awful. When he plays well, he looks like a pro bowler. Im waiting to see if he can develop some consistency this year.
29. Kitna - did a better job last year than some people realize, which is why hes still the starter, but he's still a journeyman who has never done anything special in his career.
30. Tarvaris Jackson - Hes got potential but hes completely unproven and didnt show a lot last year.
31. McCown - nothing but a stopgap until JaMarcus is ready to step in

I cant figure out the 1 player im leaving out lol

Pit Bull #53
05-19-2007, 04:06 PM
The one you left out was Favre

jag
05-19-2007, 04:07 PM
oops






10

jag
05-19-2007, 04:07 PM
Your list is lacking Favre.

EDIT: i'm late.....

Sniper
05-19-2007, 04:16 PM
When healthy McNabb is an MVP candidate every year. Palmer never is.

Take the homer shades off.

How can you put Palmer and McNabb over Brees?

Because I think they're better. Palmer is phenomenal and if McNabb had the same kind of weapons as Brees did, he'd be unstoppable (and if he stayed healthy). McNabb was on pace for 5000 yards, around 40 touchdowns and around 8-10 picks last year before he got hurt throwing to Donte Stallworth as his best wideout.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-19-2007, 04:48 PM
Well sure we can talk about McNabb being great when he's healthy, problem is: He almost never is healthy.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-19-2007, 04:55 PM
When healthy McNabb is an MVP candidate every year. Palmer never is.

Say what? Carson Palmer didn't have an MVP-type season in 2005, when he passed for 3,800 yards and 32 TDs (to just 12 ints), not to mention his 68% completion percentage, whilest leading the Bengals to an 11-5 record and their first playoff birth since 1990?!

You've got to be freakin kidding me with some of the stupid **** that comes out of your mouth.

AkiliSmith
05-19-2007, 05:16 PM
Say what? Carson Palmer didn't have an MVP-type season in 2005, when he passed for 3,800 yards and 32 TDs (to just 12 ints), not to mention his 68% completion percentage, whilest leading the Bengals to an 11-5 record and their first playoff birth since 1990?!

You've got to be freakin kidding me with some of the stupid **** that comes out of your mouth.

Thank you, I was about to post the same thing. McNabb has had only 1 season with MVP type numbers, the 2004 season. That's also the only season where he eclipsed the 60% completion mark, Palmer has all 3 seasons he has started.

Not to mention throwing 28 touchdowns, over 4000 yards, and a 94 QB rating after having major knee surgery during the offseason.

I'm not saying that McNabb isn't a great quarterback, even though he is fragile, I just think that Palmer is better. Also, McNabb has pretty much peaked as a player, where as Palmer will continue to get better.

BlindSite
05-19-2007, 05:25 PM
You can't really compare the two... McNabb's always had a better defense, and special teams to back him up but palmer has always had the better weapons.

Neither one chokes when it counts and both will play hurt and still get the job done, both, every year are potential MVPs, whether one is better than the other, could possibly have to go down to mobility, which would be McNabb.

Acreboy
05-19-2007, 06:23 PM
Say what? Carson Palmer didn't have an MVP-type season in 2005, when he passed for 3,800 yards and 32 TDs (to just 12 ints), not to mention his 68% completion percentage, whilest leading the Bengals to an 11-5 record and their first playoff birth since 1990?!

You've got to be freakin kidding me with some of the stupid **** that comes out of your mouth.

I can just as easily pull McNabb's 04 season where he threw for 3875 yards, 31 TD's to 8 INT's with a completion percentage of 64%. Also a QB rating of 104.7

McNabb's played through injuries that only a handful of people in the NFL could play through. I don't think Palmer's one of them.

When both are 100% McNabb is the better QB. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.

I also think that TPFKA#1SaintsFan just looks for chances to start **** with me.

AkiliSmith
05-19-2007, 06:35 PM
I can just as easily pull McNabb's 04 season where he threw for 3875 yards, 31 TD's to 8 INT's with a completion percentage of 64%. Also a QB rating of 104.7

McNabb's played through injuries that only a handful of people in the NFL could play through. I don't think Palmer's one of them.

How can you say that? Palmer's rehabilitation/return from his destroyed knee was unprecedented.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-19-2007, 06:52 PM
I can just as easily pull McNabb's 04 season where he threw for 3875 yards, 31 TD's to 8 INT's with a completion percentage of 64%. Also a QB rating of 104.7

McNabb's played through injuries that only a handful of people in the NFL could play through. I don't think Palmer's one of them.

When both are 100% McNabb is the better QB. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.

I also think that TPFKA#1SaintsFan just looks for chances to start **** with me.

Oh... my... *******... god.

I'm not even trying to argue which one's better. I said it's debatable. They're both very good, and I'm not even sure which I like better.

McNabb's 04 season has no relevance to what I was arguing. You said that Carson Palmer never has MVP-type seasons. Which is wrong. And idiotic.

awfullyquiet
05-19-2007, 06:59 PM
How can you say that? Palmer's rehabilitation/return from his destroyed knee was unprecedented.

I think everyone who saw that too was thinking in the back of their minds. this man is never gonna play football. ever. again.

Sniper
05-19-2007, 08:20 PM
You can't really compare the two... McNabb's always had a better defense, and special teams to back him up but palmer has always had the better weapons.

Neither one chokes when it counts and both will play hurt and still get the job done, both, every year are potential MVPs, whether one is better than the other, could possibly have to go down to mobility, which would be McNabb.

McNabb's had a better D and and ST yes, but um I'm gonna go ahead and say Palmer's had SLIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHTLY better receivers. Inflates his number a little

Mr. Stiller
05-19-2007, 08:22 PM
I'd put Ben in the average category. There is no reason he should sniff top 10, especially after last year's horrible performance.

No matter what Ben does, he's never going to get respect on here, And I realize this. But frankly, what does he have to do?

He went 15-1 as a rookie. Sure he had a bad postseason, but he was a rookie. I'm tired of hearing how he was carried by the team. He wasn't he still had to snap the ball every play, and he made many plays.

He wins a superbowl as a Sophmore. Throws under 10 INT's, top 3 in QB Rating, was the reason we beat the Bengals, Colts and Denver, to become the only 6th seed to win a superbowl. He had a bad Superbowl... I don't even want to dig up Elways stats. He had some of the worst Superbowl stats ever. And he had 5 chances, Ben's made it once.

His Jr. Season he nearly died, had an emergency appendectomy, had a concussion, played against jacksonville with a fever of 102. He still took us to 8-8. How many teams can honestly complain about 8-8 records. And to be honest, If you really want to be technical.. Ben was getting absolutely no help.

Ward was injured a few games and didn't really start coming on until the Atlanta game.

Wilson got beat out after the first half of the season by a rookie, because he would rather quit on a route and complain to the ref about PI, than fight for the ball.

Holmes and Washington were either dropping balls or running the wrong routes until about mid-season.

The OL was calling protections and They had 2 protection callers. Hartings/Faneca. The seemed to never be on the same page. Faneca would call 1 protection, Hartings another. I mean, look at the first baltimore game, Our OL gave up 9 sacks.

Not to mention he could never get in a rythym. As soon as we were to get the ball back either Colclough or Holmes fumbled the punt and Ben didn't get PT consistantly.

Then you have the lackadaisical Coaching. Did they make any adjustments in the Baltimore game? Nope, just left Ben out to dry. It was like that all season, if we sucked by halftime, the coaches weren't doing anything.


So I expect a big season, as I know the Ben has responsibility of protecting his own ass calling the protections, Arians is running a completely different offensive scheme that is better suited for our personnel. Not to mention the addition of Matt Spaeth to help in the blocking to let Heath Miller actually get out for a pass.

Mr. Stiller
05-19-2007, 08:28 PM
He was average before his "near death" experience. Every time Ben loses or sucks, he has some injury excuse. He is carried by his team, and that's not what you would classify as a good quarterback.

Palmers not carried by having the best 3-WR Set? a Top 10 RB? A reliable LT?

Right now, Pittsburgh has the weakest LT in the AFCN.

Ben always takes the blame for the loss and credits anyone else for the win. I don't think Ben always has an excuse. The only time he was injured and used it as an excuse was his broken foot, and if you rewatch the game, he had nearly no mobility in the second half.

He had a Broken thumb, Put it in a splint and proceeded to lead the team to a victory. He had an appendectomy.. and played. A fever of 102. Most QB's would sit out with that. He's always on the field.

Dam8610
05-19-2007, 09:36 PM
But frankly, what does he have to do?

Be more than a game manager for starters. Having a good season while attempting more than 25 passes per game would help too.

Acreboy
05-19-2007, 10:52 PM
Because I think they're better. Palmer is phenomenal and if McNabb had the same kind of weapons as Brees did, he'd be unstoppable (and if he stayed healthy). McNabb was on pace for 5000 yards, around 40 touchdowns and around 8-10 picks last year before he got hurt throwing to Donte Stallworth as his best wideout.Exactly, that just furthers my point.

I mean Palmer has TJ, Chad, Rudy, and Chris on offense.

McNabb has Westbrook, Brown and who else?

If I had to pick a franchise QB today i'd pick McNabb over Palmer, thats all I'm saying.

Oh... my... *******... god.

I'm not even trying to argue which one's better. I said it's debatable. They're both very good, and I'm not even sure which I like better.

McNabb's 04 season has no relevance to what I was arguing. You said that Carson Palmer never has MVP-type seasons. Which is wrong. And idiotic.You obviously can't detect sarcasim.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-19-2007, 11:12 PM
You obviously can't detect sarcasim.

Don't even try to use that lame excuse to cover your idiocy. You were vehemently arguing why you think McNabb is the better QB... why on earth would you use sarcasm (which pertains to your side of the argument, no less) in the middle of your otherwise serious spiel?

You've never seen Carson Palmer play, have you? What are you, 15, 16 years old? I'm catching on. No adult could be this uncultivated...

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-19-2007, 11:18 PM
Palmer over McNabb is laughable.


Is this a joke?


When healthy McNabb is an MVP candidate every year. Palmer never is.

Take the homer shades off.


Definitely NOT sarcasm. Just pure, unbridled ignorance.

Ewing
05-19-2007, 11:40 PM
Using the "I WAS ONLY KIDDING!" defense isn't going to work in this case Acreboy. The Chewbacca defense might work though.

Mr. Stiller
05-19-2007, 11:48 PM
Be more than a game manager for starters. Having a good season while attempting more than 25 passes per game would help too.

Ironically the first thing that Madden said when Peyton won it was.

"He finally showed that he can be a game manager, thats what wins championships".

And so what if he doesn't throw more than 25 passes a game? His Completion % is high and his YPC average and Yards a game are on par for most people throwing twice as many passes.

In that sense You would think Ben is one of the most accurate QB's in the league.

Ben(2004): 196/295, 66.4%, 2621 yds, 8.88YPC, 17:11 TD:INT, 98.1 Rating
Palmer(2004): 263/432, 60.9%, 2897 yds, 6.71YPC, 18:18 TD:INT, 77.3 Rating

Ben(2005): 168/268, 62.7%, 2385yds, 8.90YPC, 17:9 TD:INT, 98.6
Palmer(2k5): 345/509, 67.8%, 3836yds, 7.54YPC, 32:12 TD:INT, 101.1

Up until this past season Ben was very consistent. Just because he doesn't pass 30 times a game doesn't mean he isn't or shouldn't be considered a top QB.

If it takes a Game Manager to win the superbowl, then give me a game manager... this whole manager at QB thing is BS. Ben won a superbowl, being a solid QB, and making smart plays.

Carson hasn't won a superbowl. Has better weapons. Yea we have a better defense, but you can't hold that against Ben, just as I can't hold the fact Carson has a better Trio of WR's. Ben does what he needs to do to win, and his Career Record shows that.

Carson is: 27-21, 0-1 in the playoffs
Ben is: 34-14, 5-1 in the playoffs, and the Youngest QB to win a SB, and owns the best record by a Rookie QB. 2004 ROTY.

I'm not saying Ben is better than Carson, Merely proving that 1, you don't need to throw 30+ times a game to win, and 2, Ben has done more than Carson, with Less talent around him.

soybean
05-20-2007, 12:00 AM
Say what? Carson Palmer didn't have an MVP-type season in 2005, when he passed for 3,800 yards and 32 TDs (to just 12 ints), not to mention his 68% completion percentage, whilest leading the Bengals to an 11-5 record and their first playoff birth since 1990?!

You've got to be freakin kidding me with some of the stupid **** that comes out of your mouth.

Also considering, they had a legitamite shot to make/win the superbowl that year if it wasn't for kimo van olhoffen.

cunningham06
05-20-2007, 12:16 AM
Phillip Rivers over Donovan McNabb? I swear the majority of people in America were born crack babies, that's the only logical explanation for this stupidity.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-20-2007, 12:24 AM
Using the "I WAS ONLY KIDDING!" defense isn't going to work in this case Acreboy. The Chewbacca defense might work though.


Why would Chewbaca, an 8 foot tall wookie, live on Endor with a whole bunch of 3-foot tall ewoks? It doesn't make sense. And what does this have to do with Palmer not being better than McNabb? It doesn't make sense. And that's why McNabb is better than Palmer.

Dam8610
05-20-2007, 02:16 AM
Ironically the first thing that Madden said when Peyton won it was.

"He finally showed that he can be a game manager, thats what wins championships".

When did I say being a game manager wasn't a skill? I just said that he has to show that he can be more than merely that one thing.

And so what if he doesn't throw more than 25 passes a game? His Completion % is high and his YPC average and Yards a game are on par for most people throwing twice as many passes.

So what? So his running game and defense are carrying him is so what. Wouldn't you say that a team that runs about 63% running plays on average (based on 60 plays per game) is an offense that relies heavily on its running game and only asks its QB to be a game manager?

In that sense You would think Ben is one of the most accurate QB's in the league.

When he's only asked to be a game manager and let his running game provide him with great oppurtunities to pass, yes, he's shown he can be fairly accurate.

Ben(2004): 196/295, 66.4%, 2621 yds, 8.88YPC, 17:11 TD:INT, 98.1 Rating
Palmer(2004): 263/432, 60.9%, 2897 yds, 6.71YPC, 18:18 TD:INT, 77.3 Rating

Ben(2005): 168/268, 62.7%, 2385yds, 8.90YPC, 17:9 TD:INT, 98.6
Palmer(2k5): 345/509, 67.8%, 3836yds, 7.54YPC, 32:12 TD:INT, 101.1

Up until this past season Ben was very consistent. Just because he doesn't pass 30 times a game doesn't mean he isn't or shouldn't be considered a top QB.

So you don't find it an odd coincedence that when he's asked to do more than simply be a game manager and rely on his running game, he winds up having by far the worst season of his career? Take the homer shades off and see it for what it really is.

If it takes a Game Manager to win the superbowl, then give me a game manager... this whole manager at QB thing is BS. Ben won a superbowl, being a solid QB, and making smart plays.

If you're relying on your QB to be a big part of your title run, it takes a QB that can do it all. The Steelers relied on their defense and a hot streak to win them the Super Bowl. Ben had the worst performance of any Super Bowl winning QB in NFL history.

Carson hasn't won a superbowl. Has better weapons. Yea we have a better defense, but you can't hold that against Ben, just as I can't hold the fact Carson has a better Trio of WR's. Ben does what he needs to do to win, and his Career Record shows that.

Career Record? You have got to be kidding. The next time any QB singlehandedly wins a game will be the first time, and even the best of QBs doesn't have any control over at least HALF of the game. As for the "can't hold that (defense) against Ben" argument, he has no control over it, so why should having a good one make him a better player (which, according to your argument, it does)? Yes, Carson Palmer has a very good trio of WRs (I wouldn't call them the best, but that's probably my bias showing a little), but he's also the one throwing the ball to them, so it's in part because of him that they are good.

I'm not saying Ben is better than Carson, Merely proving that 1, you don't need to throw 30+ times a game to win, and 2, Ben has done more than Carson, with Less talent around him.

Well, your first point was already known, and that type of QB is generally referred to as a game manager, and you failed to prove your second point, instead illustrating that Ben succeeds with a great running game supporting him, another hallmark of a game managing QB.

Dam8610
05-20-2007, 02:25 AM
Why would Chewbaca, an 8 foot tall wookie, live on Endor with a whole bunch of 3-foot tall ewoks? It doesn't make sense. And what does this have to do with Palmer not being better than McNabb? It doesn't make sense. And that's why McNabb is better than Palmer.

I see it all so clearly now! What a fool I was to have Carson Palmer ranked ahead of Donovan McNabb!

KCJ58
05-20-2007, 02:56 AM
I'd but MArc Bulger in the top 5 he's that good!

Dam8610
05-20-2007, 03:00 AM
I'd but MArc Bulger in the top 5 he's that good!

So which of Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Donovan McNabb are you moving out of the top 5 to put Bulger in?

TheChampIsHere
05-20-2007, 05:56 AM
So which of Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, and Donovan McNabb are you moving out of the top 5 to put Bulger in?

probly that bum peyton manning

Eaglez.Fan
05-20-2007, 09:09 AM
Let me know when another rookie quarterback leads a team with the leagues worst defense to an 8-8 record. If that isn't impressive then I don't know what is.

or more INT's than TD's and only a 51 completion percentage. I'm not saying thats bad for a rookie I'm saying thats bad for an NFL QB. This is a rank of how good they are now.

Iamcanadian
05-20-2007, 10:07 AM
I saw this

http://fannation.com/blogs/post/14552?cnn=yes


and it was a terrible list imo. I cant believe that Vick and Romo are so high.


Also how can they possibly say that Jon Kitna and Alex Smith are better then Eli Manning. People really underrate Eli Manning. Trent Green also got disrespected pretty bad. he was very good outside last year. Here's my list

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Carson Palmer
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Marc Bulger
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Ben Roethlisberger
9. Jay Cutler
10. Brett Favre
11. Eli Manning
12. Philip Rivers
13. Chad Pennington
14. Vince Young
15. Matt Leinart
16. Michael Vick
17. Tony Romo
18. Trent Green (assuming he's a Dolphin)
19. Steve McNair
20. Alex Smith
21. Jason Campbell
22. Jake Delhomme
23. Jeff Garcia
24. J.P. Losman
25. Byron Leftwich
26. Rex Grossman
27. Jon Kitna
28. Matt Schaub
29. Damon Huard
30. Charlie Frye
31. Tarvaris Jackson
32. Josh McCown


what do you think?

I really like your list. it is well thought out for the most part but I cannot see Cutler quite that high just yet. He's only around 26/27 right now until he proves himself. I also think Romo is still too high. He should be right after Losman. It always amazes me how hype makes people think your better than you are. Those are the only 2 I would seriously question at this point in their careers. You could question a few minor preferences, say Pennyington over Eli at this stage, but they are meaningless for the most part.

Acreboy
05-20-2007, 01:08 PM
Don't even try to use that lame excuse to cover your idiocy. You were vehemently arguing why you think McNabb is the better QB... why on earth would you use sarcasm (which pertains to your side of the argument, no less) in the middle of your otherwise serious spiel?

You've never seen Carson Palmer play, have you? What are you, 15, 16 years old? I'm catching on. No adult could be this uncultivated...20 and how much of an adult are you to leave a negative rep comment like sahfaujhfoaihgvavnakjdsvnakjgn?

Like I said before. Palmer is good. McNabb is just better.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-20-2007, 01:15 PM
20 and how much of an adult are you to leave a negative rep comment like sahfaujhfoaihgvavnakjdsvnakjgn?

Like I said before. Palmer is good. McNabb is just better.

Like I said before, you're avoiding what you said. You said Carson Palmer never has MVP quality seasons. Just admit that you were wrong and we can all move on.

Acreboy
05-20-2007, 01:41 PM
Like I said before, you're avoiding what you said. You said Carson Palmer never has MVP quality seasons. Just admit that you were wrong and we can all move on.Well, candidate? Debatable. There were a lot of achievers and some might not even consider Palmer a candidate even that year.

In 2005 when Palmer had his big year Shaun Alexander rushed for 1880 yards and Tiki rushed for 1860 while also catching 54 passes for 530 yards. Those are NFL MVP candidate #'s. I mean in '05 Chad Johnson had over 1400 yards. McNabbs leading receiver had 763 yards. And that was TO. Houshmandzadeh had over 900 yards receiving.

Palmer had the receiving corps and a better RB (statistically) Rudy had 1400 yards and Westbrook had 617.

Palmer has/had the weapons to put up bigger numbers than McNabb yet he's consistently an MVP candidate year in and year out.

I was wrong in saying he was never an NFL candidate but not consistently like McNabb is.

McNabb>Palmer

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-20-2007, 02:00 PM
Well, candidate? Debatable. There were a lot of achievers and some might not even consider Palmer a candidate even that year.

Palmer actually got a couple of MVP votes in 2005, so whether or not he was a candidate is certainly, you know, NOT debatable.


I was wrong in saying he was never an NFL candidate

Thank you...


but not consistently like McNabb is.

Sweet jesus, you just HAD to go out with another completely idiotic statement, didn't you? Donovan McNabb has had ONE MVP-quality season, that being 2004. How on earth does that make him a consistent MVP candidate? Sure, he's been on pace for a few other MVP-type seasons (2002, 2005, and 2006), but they don't ever give the award to a guy who misses 6 or 7 games. If you have to use the phrase "when healthy" or "on pace for" when arguing your point, well, your point is moot. After 3 seasons of full time starting, Carson Palmer has the same number (ONE) of MVP candidate seasons as Donovan McNabb, who's been the full time starter for 7 seasons.


McNabb>Palmer

Again, I'm not even entering the argument over which guy is the better quarterback, even though I'm sure you will act as if I am when you retort. If you're not going to address the same issue that I'm addressing, please, don't even bother replying.

Acreboy
05-20-2007, 02:19 PM
The fact that McNabb can put up good numbers without a top notch WR and RB tells me more.

He does more with less. Which makes him better in my book.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-20-2007, 02:21 PM
The fact that McNabb can put up good numbers without a top notch WR and RB tells me more.

He does more with less. Which makes him better in my book.


Again, I'm not even entering the argument over which guy is the better quarterback, even though I'm sure you will act as if I am when you retort. If you're not going to address the same issue that I'm addressing, please, don't even bother replying.

Man, you never cease to amaze me.

bantx
05-20-2007, 02:41 PM
The fact that McNabb can put up good numbers without a top notch WR and RB tells me more.

He does more with less. Which makes him better in my book.

so your saying westbrooke wasnt good at all?

Bengals1690
05-20-2007, 03:09 PM
The fact that McNabb can put up good numbers without a top notch WR and RB tells me more.

He does more with less. Which makes him better in my book.
TO, Brian Westbrook, and stallworth arent too shabby, plus he has always had a more solid defense

Acreboy
05-20-2007, 03:11 PM
Man, you never cease to amaze me.Same here

so your saying westbrooke wasnt good at all?Not at all. He didn't tear it up until last year.

Bengals1690
05-20-2007, 03:15 PM
Same here

Not at all. He didn't tear it up until last year.


He is the prototypical WCO running back, and has always been top ten in the league. Feely and Garcia have stepped in and produced in his place. Maybe its the system. he is number 4.

1.Peyton
2.Tom Brady
3.Carson Palmer
4. Donavon McNabb
5. Drew Brees

Acreboy
05-20-2007, 03:18 PM
TO, Brian Westbrook, and stallworth arent too shabby, plus he has always had a more solid defenseNope, but I believe TO only played 7 games in '05. I won't get into how inconsistent Stallworth has been.

McNabb never played with TO, Westbrook and Stallworth all on the same field.

I still believe Johnson & Johnson, Whozyamomma, and Henry are better than TO, Westbrook, and Stallworth.


He is the prototypical WCO running back, and has always been top ten in the league. Feely and Garcia have stepped in and produced in his place. Maybe its the system. he is number 4.

1.Peyton
2.Tom Brady
3.Carson Palmer
4. Donavon McNabb
5. Drew Brees

Well i'm standing by my list.

1.) Peyton
2.) Brady
3.) Brees
4.) McNabb
5) Palmer

Eaglez.Fan
05-20-2007, 03:33 PM
TO, Brian Westbrook, and stallworth arent too shabby, plus he has always had a more solid defense

He had T.O for a year and Stallworth for like 4 games.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-20-2007, 03:43 PM
Same here

Acreboy... I truly believe that you have, without a shadow of a doubt, the most benighted mind of anybody on this forum. You've been made to look like a complete fool in this and various other threads; the saddest part is that you really do think that you know what you're talking about. Quite honestly, I used to enjoy confuting you -- but now that I realize just how clueless you truly are, the fun is all but gone. I love the way you prooflessly call me an idiot after I make you look like one within the context of one of your harebrained rants. I can't decide if it's a brick wall, or rather, a second grader with which I'm trying to argue. You all too regularly demonstrate the knowledge of a callow child, and I simply can't allow myself to be bothered by the garbage you spew anymore.

Mr. Stiller
05-20-2007, 03:45 PM
When did I say being a game manager wasn't a skill? I just said that he has to show that he can be more than merely that one thing.

Did you even watch the 06 Post-season? Ben was the reason we won those games. His last minute stop on the Cornerback after the Fumble? Ben makes big plays.

So what? So his running game and defense are carrying him is so what. Wouldn't you say that a team that runs about 63% running plays on average (based on 60 plays per game) is an offense that relies heavily on its running game and only asks its QB to be a game manager?

His running game carried him? God forbid we have a good running game. Ben wasn't asked to be a game only manager, the game is about Winning, and he's clearly shown he can do that. Also said, was the only reason that Indy won is because they're defense came on hot at the right time.. Winning teams need a solid run game and a good defense. So any QB with one of those should automatically not be considered for being good? What about Brady, he has a great Defense, but your not holding it against him. Phillip Rivers? He's garnering top 10 Consideration only after 1 good season and guess what, He has LT AND a great defense. Pittsburgh had a good defense, solid and worked well together, but they weren't Great in my opinion.. they weren't the same defense as in the early-mid 90's. Give Ben the talent that Mannings had in his career. I mean the kid went 15-1 with Jerame Tuman, Oliver Ross, Keydrick Vincent and Duce Staley. We were also missing Casey Hampton. Thats 1/5th the talent around him than most of those other guys have.

When he's only asked to be a game manager and let his running game provide him with great oppurtunities to pass, yes, he's shown he can be fairly accurate.

Show me 1 team that can win a game only passing or only running. It doesn't happen, you need balance. Again you're holding against only Ben for having a solid run game. Plenty of other teams rely on the run to open the pass.

So you don't find it an odd coincedence that when he's asked to do more than simply be a game manager and rely on his running game, he winds up having by far the worst season of his career? Take the homer shades off and see it for what it really is.

Did you even watch the Steelers? Seriously. You act like you know what your talking about when it comes to Ben, watch the games, don't watch the statlines, because they're misleading. I used them because people said Ben wasn't in Carsons league. # wise, he is. Ben set the franchise record for sacks. I'm surprised he did as well as he did honestly.

It wouldn't have anything to do with how many turnovers the punt returners had (11), Hard to get into rythym with that. It wouldn't be a coincidence that he also had the worst game of the season after nearly dying and then an emergency appendectomy?. Of course not, because then You'd have to realize that I may be right and am not being a homer. I give credit where it's due. I said he's top 10, which IMO he is. He's done great as a leader, has the physical tools and has lead us to a superbowl in his second season. It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact they abandoned the run on the road and the coaches were completely lackadaisical and not game planning well. Not to mention his worst season ever, he still led us to a 8-8 record.

If you're relying on your QB to be a big part of your title run, it takes a QB that can do it all. The Steelers relied on their defense and a hot streak to win them the Super Bowl. Ben had the worst performance of any Super Bowl winning QB in NFL history.

Well Manning couldn't win the big game without defense, so lets say he's not a complete QB. He couldn't do it all. Manning had to rely on their defense, and finally they came through. Ben had a good defense, but he still played damn well.

He was also 22 years old, the youngest QB ever in a superbowl, not to mention, his statlines aren't much worse than John Elways.

Career Record? You have got to be kidding. The next time any QB singlehandedly wins a game will be the first time, and even the best of QBs doesn't have any control over at least HALF of the game. As for the "can't hold that (defense) against Ben" argument, he has no control over it, so why should having a good one make him a better player (which, according to your argument, it does)? Yes, Carson Palmer has a very good trio of WRs (I wouldn't call them the best, but that's probably my bias showing a little), but he's also the one throwing the ball to them, so it's in part because of him that they are good.

What I'm saying is, Bens defense is out of his control. Ben doesn't have nearly the receiving threats that Carson has. But he still makes plays and is a leader. But what upsets me is why your complimenting other players, your also using it as a negative. Ben couldn't win without a defense. Neither could Manning, or Brady. So if those 2 rely on their defense and are just game managers as they can't win the game on their own, I have no problem with you lumping Ben in that category.

Well, your first point was already known, and that type of QB is generally referred to as a game manager, and you failed to prove your second point, instead illustrating that Ben succeeds with a great running game supporting him, another hallmark of a game managing QB.

That is a load of ****. Manning, Brady, and even CARSON couldn't succeed without a great running game. Manning had Rhodes/Addai, Great duo... Brady had Dillon/Maroney... another great duo. Carson has Johnson adn Perry. A great duo. Ben had Parker/Davenport. I'm sorry, but Davenport is the worst RB in this whole example. No QB succeeds without a good run game. Thats what happened on the road last year. We had absolutely NO run game. Parker averaged under 15 attempts per road game last season. Thats less than anyone else. We had no blocking and no run game. And our coaching was a joke.

Bengals1690
05-20-2007, 03:46 PM
He had T.O for a year and Stallworth for like 4 games.


ok....he still had them, he was saying that McNabb has never had any weapons.

draftguru151
05-20-2007, 04:35 PM
Nope, but I believe TO only played 7 games in '05. I won't get into how inconsistent Stallworth has been.

McNabb never played with TO, Westbrook and Stallworth all on the same field.

I still believe Johnson & Johnson, Whozyamomma, and Henry are better than TO, Westbrook, and Stallworth.

What about the fact that other QBs do very will when McNabb goes down? The Eagles have one of the best receiving RBs in the league and a very good receiving TE. It's not like it's McNabb against the world. Not to mention he has one of the top OLs every single year.

Acreboy
05-20-2007, 04:55 PM
What about the fact that other QBs do very will when McNabb goes down? The Eagles have one of the best receiving RBs in the league and a very good receiving TE. It's not like it's McNabb against the world. Not to mention he has one of the top OLs every single year.Well, Andy builds his lines through the draft. He normally does a very good job of it. Yes their TE's are good. Not going to dispute that. Westbrook is arguably the best receiving RB including Bush. But that doesn't allow him to air the ball out like Palmer has the luxury of doing. I mean the Bengals o-line isn't bad by any means.

Acreboy... I truly believe that you have, without a shadow of a doubt, the most benighted mind of anybody on this forum. You've been made to look like a complete fool in this and various other threads; the saddest part is that you really do think that you know what you're talking about. Quite honestly, I used to enjoy confuting you -- but now that I realize just how clueless you truly are, the fun is all but gone. I love the way you prooflessly call me an idiot after I make you look like one within the context of one of your harebrained rants. I can't decide if it's a brick wall, or rather, a second grader with which I'm trying to argue. You all too regularly demonstrate the knowledge of a callow child, and I simply can't allow myself to be bothered by the garbage you spew anymore.I mean if you say you've made me look like a fool then go ahead and think that. You think you're some football guru and you're not.

ok....he still had them, he was saying that McNabb has never had any weapons.I never said that. I said that he's never had very many if any good weapons.

23trufant
05-20-2007, 05:05 PM
Jeff Garcia is being extremely overrated IMO.

bennybee38
05-20-2007, 05:07 PM
i wanna know how eli manning is over steve mcnair
wwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaackkkkkkk baby
alllllllllllll wack

Acreboy
05-20-2007, 06:36 PM
At least no one will argue that Palmer is better than Brees

Bengals1690
05-20-2007, 06:38 PM
At least no one will argue that Palmer is better than Brees

Palmer is better than Brees. Give me an argument to support that, and i will refute it.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-20-2007, 06:39 PM
At least no one will argue that Palmer is better than Brees

I had Palmer rated ahead of Brees on my list.

Shiver
05-20-2007, 06:52 PM
I had Palmer rated ahead of Brees on my list.

Me as well.

Auron
05-20-2007, 06:52 PM
Palmer is better than Brees. Give me an argument to support that, and i will refute it.

I think they are pretty even, but it isn't a stretch to have Brees ahead after last season.

2006

Completion percentage
Brees: 64.3
Palmer: 62.3

Passing yards
Brees: 4418
Palmer: 4035

Interceptions Ratio
Brees: 11 / in 554 attempts
Palmer:13 / in 520 attempts

Yards per attempt
Brees: 7.97
Palmer: 7.76

QB Rating
Brees: 96.2
Palmer: 93.9

QB Ratings past 3 years
Brees: 104.8, 89.2, 96.2
Palmer: 77.3, 101.1, 93.9

and Brees was first team All Pro last season.

again I think they are pretty even, and the issue is definitely very arguable, but I don't think it is the slam dunk that you make it seem.

Acreboy
05-20-2007, 06:59 PM
Palmer is better than Brees. Give me an argument to support that, and i will refute it.

I think they are pretty even, but it isn't a stretch to have Brees ahead after last season.

2006

Completion percentage
Brees: 64.3
Palmer: 62.3

Passing yards
Brees: 4418
Palmer: 4035

Interceptions Ratio
Brees: 11 / in 554 attempts
Palmer:13 / in 520 attempts

Yards per attempt
Brees: 7.97
Palmer: 7.76

QB Rating
Brees: 96.2
Palmer: 93.9

QB Ratings past 3 years
Brees: 104.8, 89.2, 96.2
Palmer: 77.3, 101.1, 93.9

and Brees was first team All Pro last season.

again I think they are pretty even, and the issue is definitely very arguable, but I don't think it is the slam dunk that you make it seem.

Sucka you beat me to it!

Brees knows how to check down and spread the ball around to his RB's and TE's and 4th and 5th WR's. Palmer knows how to throw the ball to Chad Johnson.

Some people like to look at TD INT ratios. Brees also plays in a better defensive conference.

Brees had 26 TD to 11 INT

Palmer had 28 TD's to 13 INT's

Brees wins.

Brees had more yards and made the playoffs. Led his team to the NFCCG. Palmers career percentage is higher than Drew's because Palmer was more NFL ready and Drew had a slower start to his career. Over the last 3 years Bree's percentage has been higher.

Bengals1690
05-20-2007, 07:03 PM
I think they are pretty even, but it isn't a stretch to have Brees ahead after last season.

2006

Completion percentage
Brees: 64.3
Palmer: 62.3

Passing yards
Brees: 4418
Palmer: 4035

Interceptions Ratio
Brees: 11 / in 554 attempts
Palmer:13 / in 520 attempts

Yards per attempt
Brees: 7.97
Palmer: 7.76

QB Rating
Brees: 96.2
Palmer: 93.9

QB Ratings past 3 years
Brees: 104.8, 89.2, 96.2
Palmer: 77.3, 101.1, 93.9

and Brees was first team All Pro last season.

again I think they are pretty even, and the issue is definitely very arguable, but I don't think it is the slam dunk that you make it seem.


yea your right. brees was better in 2006, Palmer was better in 2005


2005 Palmer- 345/509, (67.8 %), 3836 yards, and 32s TDs/12 INTs
2005 Brees- 323/500 (64.6 %), 3576 yards, 24 TD/15 Ints


it is very subjective

BlindSite
05-20-2007, 07:04 PM
I agree, Brees is a very good QB, I'd argue he's on Par with Palmer, but I don't know if I would want him over Palmer if I was building a team.

fenikz
05-20-2007, 07:06 PM
1. Tom Brady
2. Peyton Manning
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Marc Bulger
6. Donovan McNabb
7. Matt Hasselbeck
8. Philip Rivers
9. Brett Favre
10. Ben Roethlisberger
11. Jay Cutler
12. Eli Manning
13. Vince Young
14. Matt Leinart
15. Chad Pennington
16. Steve McNair
17. Damon Huard
18. Trent Green (assuming he's a Dolphin)
19. Michael Vick
20. Jeff Garcia
21. Alex Smith
22. Tony Romo
23. J.P. Losman
24. Jake Delhomme
25. Byron Leftwich
26. Matt Schaub
27. Jason Campbell
28. Tarvaris Jackson
29. Rex Grossman
30. Jon Kitna
31. Charlie Frye
32. Josh McCown

Auron
05-20-2007, 07:07 PM
yea your right. brees was better in 2006, Palmer was better in 2005

2005 Palmer- 345/509, (67.8 %), 3836 yards, and 32s TDs/12 INTs
2005 Brees- 323/500 (64.6 %), 3576 yards, 24 TD/15 Ints


it is very subjective

I agree I think they are both very fine QB's, they are both capable of playing on an elite level but they aren't on the same level as Manning or Brady yet.

Palmer has better deep ball range, but Brees has amazing precise short - intermediate range accuracy.

In the end I think Palmer has bigger potential, but right now Brees is the more seasoned experienced QB. They also both came back from potentially career damaging injuries to have strong seasons.

Acreboy
05-20-2007, 07:07 PM
yea your right. brees was better in 2006, Palmer was better in 2005


2005 Palmer- 345/509, (67.8 %), 3836 yards, and 32s TDs/12 INTs
2005 Brees- 323/500 (64.6 %), 3576 yards, 24 TD/15 Ints


it is very subjective

Also, in 2005 who was Palmer throwing to?

Brees had Gates, LT, McCardell, Vincent, the only average receiver was Gates.

BTW, what's Palmers record in the playoffs again?

Ewing
05-20-2007, 07:10 PM
BTW, what's Palmers record in the playoffs again?

Don't bring up Palmer's record in the playoffs. He got injured on his very first play in his postseason career and last year he had virtually no defense. I'm not saying either Brees or Palmer is better than the other but please bring up actual points.

Flyboy
05-20-2007, 07:11 PM
How the hell can you ask what's Palmer's record in the playoffs when he got injured during the FIRST snap?

Hell, Brees is only 1-2 in the playoffs. That logic makes no sense whatsoever.

Bengals1690
05-20-2007, 07:12 PM
Sucka you beat me to it!

Brees knows how to check down and spread the ball around to his RB's and TE's and 4th and 5th WR's. Palmer knows how to throw the ball to Chad Johnson.

Some people like to look at TD INT ratios. Brees also plays in a better defensive conference.

Brees had 26 TD to 11 INT

Palmer had 28 TD's to 13 INT's

Brees wins.

Brees had more yards and made the playoffs. Led his team to the NFCCG. Palmers career percentage is higher than Drew's because Palmer was more NFL ready and Drew had a slower start to his career. Over the last 3 years Bree's percentage has been higher.

Palmer only knows how to throw to CJ? Must explain why Henry and Housh both had 9 touchdowns last year. And why Housh had over 1000 yards this year.


Brees just wins games? Must be why Palmer turned around one of the worst franchise in the NFL. ( i know brees did the same thing, but at least the saints had made the playoffs in the last 20 years)

Bree's higher completion percentage can be attributed to the dinks and dunks you refer to earler in your post. Palmer doesnt have a recieving threat out of the backfield. Palmer also doesnt have a recieving threats at TE. Breeshad arguably the best TE in the league before he came to New Orleans. Brees had one in san diego and now has reggie bush, who had 88 receotions if memory serves me right.

And you saying that brees plas in a beter defensive conference might be the dumbest thing i have ever heard.

Bengals1690
05-20-2007, 07:14 PM
Also, in 2005 who was Palmer throwing to?

Brees had Gates, LT, McCardell, Vincent, the only average receiver was Gates.

BTW, what's Palmers record in the playoffs again?

CJ, and Housh. Brees had arguably the best TE in the NFL, and the best running back in the NFL Dont act like that doesnt help him out at all.

Palmers knee was shredded on the first snap. Ona pass he completed for 66 yards. but nice try on that one.

Acreboy
05-20-2007, 07:14 PM
Don't bring up Palmer's record in the playoffs. He got injured on his very first play in his postseason career and last year he had virtually no defense. I'm not saying either Brees or Palmer is better than the other but please bring up actual points.

He had a chance to get his team to playoffs this year and failed.

Palmer has better deep ball range, but Brees has amazing precise short - intermediate range accuracy.Brees is better at the deep ball as well.

Last year Brees had 18 completions over 40 yards. Palmer had 15. Brees had 61 completions over 20 yards. Palmer had 52. Brees' longest pass was 86 yards. Palmer's was 74. Brees' yards per attempt was 7.97, Palmer's was 7.76.

All of this with a far better group of receivers than Brees had to work with.


Palmers knee was shredded on the first snap. Ona pass he completed for 66 yards. but nice try on that one.
It gets a little hard to be successful when people start to double team Gates and LT. Brees had the equivalent of ATL's receivers to spread the ball around to. No one else but gates and LT could catch a ball.

Flyboy
05-20-2007, 07:15 PM
Brees is better with the...

Oh, screw it. I give up.

Ewing
05-20-2007, 07:16 PM
( i know brees did the same thing, but at least the saints had made the playoffs in the last 20 years)

Um, the Bengals had made the playoffs in the past twenty years before Palmer showed up. Infact they had two Super Bowl appearances.

Ewing
05-20-2007, 07:18 PM
He had a chance to get his team to playoffs this year and failed.

Coming of major surgery and quarterbacking a team with no defense. I highly doubt any quarterback in the league could lead their team to the playoffs with that situation.

Bengals1690
05-20-2007, 07:20 PM
Um, the Bengals had made the playoffs in the past twenty years before Palmer showed up. Infact they had two Super Bowl appearances.

it it was sarcasm. i meant a long period of time, i wasnt sure exactly how kong

Acreboy
05-20-2007, 07:20 PM
Coming of major surgery and quarterbacking a team with no defense. I highly doubt any quarterback in the league could lead their team to the playoffs with that situation.Umn.. Drew Brees says hi.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-20-2007, 07:21 PM
He had a chance to get his team to playoffs this year and failed.

Brees is better at the deep ball as well.

Last year Brees had 18 completions over 40 yards. Palmer had 15. Brees had 61 completions over 20 yards. Palmer had 52. Brees' longest pass was 86 yards. Palmer's was 74. Brees' yards per attempt was 7.97, Palmer's was 7.76.

All of this with a far better group of receivers than Brees had to work with.



True, but I'd take Bush in the passing game over Johnson, and Devery Henderson is probably a better deep threat than Palmer really had, and Brees' O-Line was better. And there is no way in hell Brees was in a tougher defensive division.

Ravens, Steelers, Browns
>>>
Falcons, Panthers, Bucs

Bengals1690
05-20-2007, 07:24 PM
He had a chance to get his team to playoffs this year and failed.

Brees is better at the deep ball as well.

Last year Brees had 18 completions over 40 yards. Palmer had 15. Brees had 61 completions over 20 yards. Palmer had 52. Brees' longest pass was 86 yards. Palmer's was 74. Brees' yards per attempt was 7.97, Palmer's was 7.76.

All of this with a far better group of receivers than Brees had to work with.


It gets a little hard to be successful when people start to double team Gates and LT. Brees had the equivalent of ATL's receivers to spread the ball around to. No one else but gates and LT could catch a ball.

he had arguably the best two weapons in football. In 2005, Gates had 10 touchdowns and over 1000 yards. LT got over 1500 yards rushing.

Ewing
05-20-2007, 07:24 PM
Umn.. Drew Brees says hi.

Drew Brees' injury was nothing compared to Palmer's. There was talk that Palmer was going to miss the entire 2006 season. The Saints also play in a far worse confrence then the Bengals. Please, stop saying stupid stuff.

Auron
05-20-2007, 07:28 PM
Drew Brees' injury was nothing compared to Palmer's. There was talk that Palmer was going to miss the entire 2006 season. The Saints also play in a far worse confrence then the Bengals. Please, stop saying stupid stuff.
I wouldn't exactly say it was nothing.

A torn labrum in the throwing shoulder is a potentially disastrous injury for a QB, there was talk he would never be able to throw with the same efficiency again.