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Paul
05-19-2007, 10:21 PM
Can't have incoming rookies.

Offense

QB: Jay Cutler
RB: Thomas Jones
FB: Justin Griffith
WR: T. J. Houshmandzadeh
WR: Marques Colston
TE: Heath Miller

LT: D'Brickashaw Ferguson
LG: Eric Steinbach
C: Nick Mangold
RG: Vince Manuwai
RT: Marc Colombo


Defense

DE: Mario Williams
DT: Jason Ferguson
DT: Haloti Ngata
DE: Charles Grant

LB: Bart Scott
LB: DeMeco Ryans
LB: Derrick Johnson

CB: Terrence Newman
CB: Leigh Bodden
FS: Erik Coleman
SS: Kerry Rhodes

GB12
05-19-2007, 10:24 PM
What the hell is "non-probowl" team supposed to mean?

Paul
05-19-2007, 10:26 PM
What the hell is "non-probowl" team supposed to mean?

Ahh yes, I was looking for the best way to word it, I guess I failed. Players who've never been slecectd to the Pro Bowl.

WMD
05-19-2007, 10:26 PM
I assume, the best players who haven't made it to a Pro Bowl yet.

fenikz
05-19-2007, 10:43 PM
i dont see why jay cutler is being thrown on all these lists, he really hasn't proven anything yet

The Unseen
05-19-2007, 10:46 PM
Fred Taylor.

bearsfan_51
05-19-2007, 10:47 PM
Enough with the Marc Columbo garbage. Seriously.

Unless you're forcasting there are way too many 1st year players. What did Mario Williams or Ngata do last year to put them in the discussion?

PACKmanN
05-19-2007, 10:50 PM
Offense

QB: Alex Smith
RB: Travis Henry
FB: Justin Griffith
WR: Michael Jenkins
WR: Braylon Edwards
TE: Benjamin Watson

LT: D'Brickashaw Ferguson
LG: Eric Steinbach
C: Nick Mangold
RG: Vince Manuwai
RT: Mark Tauscher


Defense

DE: Mario Williams
DT: Ryan Pickett
DT: Tommie Harris
DE: Charles Grant

LB: AJ Hawk
LB: DeMeco Ryans
LB: Derrick Johnson

CB: Terrence Newman
CB: Antoine Winfield
FS: Madieu Williams
SS: Kerry Rhodes

Paul
05-19-2007, 10:53 PM
Jesus Christ it's not a official list, it's an opinion list.

1. I picked Cutler for the mere fact, after Manning, Brady, Brees, Bulger, Palmer, Hasselback, rivers and yes even Romo. It's Slim Pickins, and Cutler is high on my personal list.

2. Depsite to the dismay of Bears fans, Colombo played very well for the Cowboys. One Year yes, but his play was on a pro bowl level.

3. It was fred Taylor vs. Tomas Jones for me. I went with the younger guy.

Once again it is not official thing, I just picked my team.

bearsfan_51
05-19-2007, 10:54 PM
Jesus Christ when you make your own thread expect to be critized for what you put in it. Opinion or not.

bearsfan_51
05-19-2007, 10:55 PM
Offense

QB: Alex Smith
RB: Travis Henry
FB: Justin Griffith
WR: Michael Jenkins
WR: Braylon Edwards
TE: Benjamin Watson

LT: D'Brickashaw Ferguson
LG: Eric Steinbach
C: Nick Mangold
RG: Vince Manuwai
RT: Mark Tauscher


Defense

DE: Mario Williams
DT: Ryan Pickett
DT: Tommie Harris
DE: Charles Grant

LB: AJ Hawk
LB: DeMeco Ryans
LB: Derrick Johnson

CB: Terrence Newman
CB: Antoine Winfield
FS: Madieu Williams
SS: Kerry Rhodes
Tommie Harris has been to the Probowl...twice actually. Didn't DeMeco go this year? I can't remember.

Boston
05-19-2007, 10:58 PM
I don't think Nick Barnett's went, or Al Harris. I'm not sure if alternates count though.

GB12
05-19-2007, 10:59 PM
Tommie Harris has been to the Probowl...twice actually. Didn't DeMeco go this year? I can't remember.

Barnett should be over Hawk too. And Al Harris would be a good option for CB.

bearsfan_51
05-19-2007, 11:00 PM
Barnett should be over Hawk too. And Al Harris would be a good option for CB.
I'd take the two available over Harris. And Barnett and Hawk aren't the same position. They differentiate between MLB and OLB for the Probowl.

Paul
05-19-2007, 11:01 PM
Jesus Christ when you make your own thread expect to be critized for what you put in it. Opinion or not.

I expect criticisms, not blunt little comments like, "WTF Colombo, WTF.".

nobodyinparticular
05-19-2007, 11:02 PM
Wow, this is ridiculous. Just like the "Top *insert position here*" threads, people continue to overate potential over production. Cutler, D'Brick, Ngata and Mario are all examples of this.

Windy
05-19-2007, 11:06 PM
Kirk Morrison

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/417305

Paul
05-19-2007, 11:09 PM
Wow, this is ridiculous. Just like the "Top *insert position here*" threads, people continue to overate potential over production. Cutler, D'Brick, Ngata and Mario are all examples of this.

Agian I say, after Manning, Brady, Bulger, T. Green, Rivers, Hasselback, Farve, Brees and all other Probowl QB's, what other QB's are there besides young guns with potential like a Alex Smith, Cutler, Young, E Manning.

I'll give you Ngata and Williams as pontential based picks, but I do believe D'brick is a very good player. My first choice was Mcniel, but h did it make this past eason I believe.

bearsfan_51
05-19-2007, 11:11 PM
I expect criticisms, not blunt little comments like, "WTF Colombo, WTF.".

Herr...umm....

Marc Columbo isn't very good, no matter how many Cowboys fans say he is. This is a prime example of why nobody listens to Cowboys fans when they talk about their own players.

There. That was less blunt.

sodar21
05-19-2007, 11:17 PM
QB: Byron Leftwich
RB: Fred Taylor
FB: Don't know
WR: Joey Galloway
WR: Amani Toomer
TE: Heath Miller
OT: Matt Light
OG: Eric Steinbach
OC: Nick Mangold
OG: Logan Mankins
OT: Chad Clifton

DE: Jared Allen
DT: Ryan Pickett
DT: Cory Redding
DE: Luis Castillo
OLB: Rosevelt Colvin
MLB: Mike Peterson
OLB: Shaun Phillips
CB: Antoine Winfield
CB: Terrence Newman
SS: Chris Hope
FS: Kerry Rhodes

Paul
05-19-2007, 11:21 PM
Herr...umm....

Marc Columbo isn't very good, no matter how many Cowboys fans say he is. This is a prime example of why nobody listens to Cowboys fans when they talk about their own players.

There. That was less blunt.

Maybe you are ignorant enough to generalize all fans of a team into one group, but I don't. I usually judge an individuals intellect...well individually. Now I know you are all bitter that Colombo was less then average for the Bears. But like it or not, he was very good for the Cowboys. I'm not saying he's the next Erik Williams, but he's definitely proven he can be very good player in the league.

bearsfan_51
05-19-2007, 11:31 PM
Now I know you are all bitter that Colombo was less then average for the Bears. But like it or not, he was very good for the Cowboys. I'm not saying he's the next Erik Williams, but he's definitely proven he can be very good player in the league.
No matter how many times you say it, it still won't be true. I watched about 9-10 Cowboys games last year so unless he was absolutely stellar in the other 6-7 I saw the same games you did. Maybe in comparison to the rest of your line he was good, but he's a middle of the road starting tackle at best, and I would predict he's not even starting in the NFL 3-4 years from now.

And I'm not bitter at all. Both of our starting tackles are better than Marc. I'm happy he's finally healthy and is still making money in the NFL, that still doesn't make him anywhere near the player Cowboys fans think he is.

GB12
05-19-2007, 11:34 PM
I'd take the two available over Harris. And Barnett and Hawk aren't the same position. They differentiate between MLB and OLB for the Probowl.

Really? I thought they played the same position. Nah, he had them listed as just LB. As for Harris I was giving him as another possibility. He would be over guys like Leigh Bodden as the original poster listed.

Hines
05-19-2007, 11:35 PM
Agian I say, after Manning, Brady, Bulger, T. Green, Rivers, Hasselback, Farve, Brees and all other Probowl QB's, what other QB's are there besides young guns with potential like a Alex Smith, Cutler, Young, E Manning.

I'll give you Ngata and Williams as pontential based picks, but I do believe D'brick is a very good player. My first choice was Mcniel, but h did it make this past eason I believe.

um ben roethlisburger


and ike taylor is better than terrance newman

Hines
05-19-2007, 11:37 PM
and also hes better than leigh bodden (ike taylor)

bearsfan_51
05-19-2007, 11:38 PM
um ben roethlisburger


and ike taylor is better than terrance newman
Didn't Ike Taylor suck last season?

Paul
05-19-2007, 11:40 PM
um ben roethlisburger


and ike taylor is better than terrance newman

Yes you can make a argument for big Ben. He slipped my mind mine when making the list.

Newman vs. Ike Taylor:confused: ... This only going to go to a string of homerism post, so not goint to touch that.....



Newman is better.

Hines
05-19-2007, 11:43 PM
Didn't Ike Taylor suck last season?


i wouldnt say suck
i would say a bad year
the whole team downplayed last year with the exception of willie

i would expect ike taylor to be back to form this year

just ask chad johnson if ike is good or not

but ike played down and still was one of the bright spots int he defensive backfield by leadin the dbs in pbus

Hines
05-19-2007, 11:43 PM
Yes you can make a argument for big Ben. He slipped my mind mine when making the list.

Newman vs. Ike Taylor:confused: ... This only going to go to a string of homerism post, so not goint to touch that.....



Newman is better.


how so is newman better

Paul
05-19-2007, 11:44 PM
Also I forgot Chris Hope!? Terrible on my part. He should be on htere.

Hines
05-19-2007, 11:48 PM
if u go by numbers alone

newman had 63 takles 1 int and 11 pbu

taylor 69 takles 2 int and 15 pbu

while those r only numbers
i can only recall ike gettin abused by one reciever and that was javon walker
i wished i coudl find stats on how many tds the corners allowed and stuff

Hines
05-19-2007, 11:49 PM
taylor is still in his prime while he is 2 years younger than newman

and hes also bigger

and just as fast
and ikes cover skills r up there too

bearsfan_51
05-19-2007, 11:50 PM
Capital letters are your friend.

Flyboy
05-19-2007, 11:52 PM
I'll play the role of homer and throw out Mike Karney.

dhoe20
05-19-2007, 11:52 PM
Capital letters and edit buttons are your friends.

Added a little bit.

Mr. Stiller
05-19-2007, 11:55 PM
QB: Ben Roethlisberger
RB: Fred Taylor
FB: Dan Kreider
WR: Joey Galloway
WR: Anquan Boldin
TE: Heath Miller
OT: Matt Light
OG: Eric Steinbach
OC: Nick Mangold
OG: Logan Mankins
OT: Jon Runyan

DE: Jared Allen
DT: Ty Warren
DT: Aaron Smith
DE: Luis Castillo
OLB: Ernie Sims
MLB: Mike Peterson
OLB: Derrick Johnson
CB: Antoine Winfield
CB: Terrence Newman
SS: Chris Hope
FS: Kerry Rhodes

Paul
05-19-2007, 11:56 PM
how so is newman better

He has been the best player on the defensive side of ball for the Cowboys for the past few seasons. Neutralizing some of the better WR during that time. And you can't really look at the stats and let that deceive you. I mean your not going to get alot of INT when your not thrown to. And it's not his fault whenever he has a INT inline, Roy Williams finds a away to hit wherever the ball is, not matter who's in his way. He really has been the cornerpiece, the most consistent player for Cowboys as a whole. Not just on defense.

Paul
05-19-2007, 11:57 PM
Why are people putting Jon Runyan? He made it 2002 or 2003 didn't he?

Hines
05-19-2007, 11:59 PM
QB: Ben Roethlisberger
RB: Fred Taylor
FB: Dan Kreider
WR: Joey Galloway
WR: Anquan Boldin
TE: Heath Miller
OT: Matt Light
OG: Eric Steinbach
OC: Nick Mangold
OG: Logan Mankins
OT: Jon Runyan

DE: Jared Allen
DT: Ty Warren
DT: Aaron Smith
DE: Luis Castillo
OLB: Ernie Sims
MLB: Mike Peterson
OLB: Derrick Johnson
CB: Antoine Winfield
CB: Terrence Newman
SS: Chris Hope
FS: Kerry Rhodes



stiller i thought aaron went to one

cunningham06
05-20-2007, 12:03 AM
um ben roethlisburger


and ike taylor is better than terrance newman

That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I'm an Eagles fan and I hate the Cowboys and Terrence Newman but I'll tell you he's better than Ike Taylor.

I was hoping this was a list of people who were snubbed from the pro bowl last season, I'll do a list of that later maybe.

sodar21
05-20-2007, 12:05 AM
Why are people putting Jon Runyan? He made it 2002 or 2003 didn't he?

You're right he did make it in 2003. My bad.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-20-2007, 12:37 AM
Lol, I wish Achilles was here to argue Newman vs. Taylor in here. I'd actually side with Achilles, but he'd make so many dumb posts I'd have to interject to piss him off.

TheChampIsHere
05-20-2007, 12:53 AM
yea man I am not a Cowboy fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I give a lot of credit to Newman, he is one of the best corners in this league, theres no way Id leave him out of my top 10, and in 4 years he has only had 1 bad year and has been great in the last 2. Ike Taylor is a guy who had one great season after his career before that had consisted of him bouncing around and not getting any PT. And last year he didnt do anything to make me believe he will ever have another season as good as his 05 season.

TheChampIsHere
05-20-2007, 01:02 AM
QB - Roethlisberger
HB - Maurice Drew
FB - Griffith
WR - Boldin
WR - Galloway
TE - Vernon Davis (he showed me enough in limited time last year)
OT - Jon Tait
OG - Eric Steinbach
C - Nick Mangold
OG - Chris Snee
OT - Chad Clifton

DE - Jarred Allen
DE - Charles Grant
DT - Luis Castilo (slide im inside)
DT - Cory Redding
OLB - Shaun Phillips
OLB - Ernie Sims
MLB - Kirk Morrison
CB - Terrence Newman
CB - Nmandhi Asumgha
FS - Chris Hope
SS - Kherry Rhodes

PoopSandwich
05-20-2007, 01:07 AM
How does Heath Miller make it over Winslow?

I know I'm a huge Winslow fan and a huge Browns fan, but that doesn't make sense at all to me.

PoopSandwich
05-20-2007, 01:09 AM
i wouldnt say suck
i would say a bad year
the whole team downplayed last year with the exception of willie

i would expect ike taylor to be back to form this year

just ask chad johnson if ike is good or not

but ike played down and still was one of the bright spots int he defensive backfield by leadin the dbs in pbus

Ask Chad Johnson if Leigh Bodden is good... He said Bodden is the best cornerback east of Denver.

sodar21
05-20-2007, 01:10 AM
Hasn't Boldin been in multiple Pro Bowls?

Bengals1690
05-20-2007, 01:14 AM
Hasn't Boldin been in multiple Pro Bowls?

i think that was fitz, i dont belive he has made one yet.

SaintsMan
05-20-2007, 01:19 AM
Jeff Faine

kalbears13
05-20-2007, 01:28 AM
If you can think of any Browns player good enough to make the list, it's very very very likely he didn't make it to the probowl.

XxXdragonXxX
05-20-2007, 01:47 AM
i think that was fitz, i dont belive he has made one yet.


Boldin made the pro bowl in 2003 (rookie year) and 2006. Fitz made it in 2005.

TheChampIsHere
05-20-2007, 02:20 AM
Boldin made the pro bowl in 2003 (rookie year) and 2006. Fitz made it in 2005.

yea I thought Boldin had made the pro bowl but I saw him on someone elses list so I figured I mustve been mistaken.

terribletowel39
05-20-2007, 03:49 AM
How does Heath Miller make it over Winslow?

I know I'm a huge Winslow fan and a huge Browns fan, but that doesn't make sense at all to me.
because he is better than that joke of a "soldier" yall have playing over in Brownsville. and Bodden is another injury plagued joke that the browns have picked up.

niel89
05-20-2007, 04:10 AM
Winslow>Heath Miller

Winslow has that potential to be one of the elite TEs in the league due to his recieving skills. he is currently on the cusp IMO and will more time and a more consistent offence he will gain more. i think that Miller is good and under utilzied but Winslow is better overall, plus as you said he is a "soldier."

Nalej
05-20-2007, 08:24 AM
Fred Taylor.

Exactly what I was thinking.

swordman
05-20-2007, 08:37 AM
Did Levi Jones made it to one probowl?

I remember him being alternate but I am not sure if he actually made it

If not he definitely deserve to be on this team

Modano
05-20-2007, 08:40 AM
Lol, I wish Achilles was here to argue Newman vs. Taylor in here. I'd actually side with Achilles, but he'd make so many dumb posts I'd have to interject to piss him off.

Achilles is gone :(

But probably, and hopefully he will come back with another nickname!

remix 6
05-20-2007, 08:44 AM
Can't have incoming rookies.

Offense

QB: Jay Cutler
RB: Thomas Jones
FB: Justin Griffith
WR: T. J. Houshmandzadeh
WR: Marques Colston
TE: Heath Miller

LT: D'Brickashaw Ferguson
LG: Eric Steinbach
C: Nick Mangold
RG: Vince Manuwai
RT: Marc Colombo


Defense

DE: Mario Williams
DT: Jason Ferguson
DT: Haloti Ngata
DE: Charles Grant

LB: Bart Scott
LB: DeMeco Ryans
LB: Derrick Johnson

CB: Terrence Newman
CB: Leigh Bodden
FS: Erik Coleman
SS: Kerry Rhodes
coleman blows dude..BAD List..hows Brady not over Cutler who only started 5 games? BS. Theres better than Jones. Miller with less than 400 yards receiving? NOPE

QB - Brady
RB - Westbrook
FB - Griffith
TE - Heap
LT -
LG - Mankins
C - Koppen
RG -
RT -

DE - Pryce
DT - Wilfork
DT - Warren (hes a DE but a 4-3 DT)..outplayed Seymour
DE - Grant
OLB - Scott
MLB - Ryans
OLB - Davis
CB - Samuel
CB - Newman
SS - Rhodes
FS - Hamlin?


edit******thought it was just from last year
forget it

Go_Eagles77
05-20-2007, 10:20 AM
Westbrook was an alternate in 04 or 05, don't know if that counts.

bearsfan_51
05-20-2007, 11:38 AM
because he is better than that joke of a "soldier" yall have playing over in Brownsville. and Bodden is another injury plagued joke that the browns have picked up.

No he's not. Steelers fans are getting pretty absurd around here. Leigh Bodden is a good player, and Heath Miller is not better than Winslow. He's not even close.

draftguru151
05-20-2007, 11:45 AM
No he's not. Steelers fans are getting pretty absurd around here. Leigh Bodden is a good player, and Heath Miller is not better than Winslow. He's not even close.

Seriously, it hasn't been this bad since after they won the SB. What's next, Willie Parker better than Tomlinson?

Hines
05-20-2007, 11:51 AM
No he's not. Steelers fans are getting pretty absurd around here. Leigh Bodden is a good player, and Heath Miller is not better than Winslow. He's not even close.



leigh bodden is a good player
but i wouldnt put him in the top 10 like i do with ike

and im not gonna argue with winslow bein better than heath cuz its true

i say heath is in the same category as the heaps of the league
who is whichi compare heath too

Hines
05-20-2007, 11:51 AM
Seriously, it hasn't been this bad since after they won the SB. What's next, Willie Parker better than Tomlinson?


it could happen
=)

so jokin

but willie is a top 5 back

terribletowel39
05-20-2007, 12:09 PM
No he's not. Steelers fans are getting pretty absurd around here. Leigh Bodden is a good player, and Heath Miller is not better than Winslow. He's not even close.
if you really don't think that Miller is a better all around tight end that Winslow there is something wrong. Miller has just as reliable hands, he just isn't as fast, shifty blah blah, he blocks a lot better than Winslow and is tougher than Winslow. everytime Miller gets the ball in his hands (1 or 2 times a season) and a defender makes contact there is another 5 yards that will be gained.

and you can be the best player in the game but when you are injured all the time, you can't do too much for the team. he hasn't played in 16 games the entire time he has been in the league and two season he didn't even break 10 games played. (talking about Bodden here but the idea can be applied to Winslow as well just not the stats)

bearsfan_51
05-20-2007, 12:16 PM
if you really don't think that Miller is a better all around tight end that Winslow there is something wrong. Miller has just as reliable hands, he just isn't as fast, shifty blah blah, he blocks a lot better than Winslow and is tougher than Winslow. everytime Miller gets the ball in his hands (1 or 2 times a season) and a defender makes contact there is another 5 yards that will be gained.
Well there must be something wrong with 80-90% of the people on here because I don't think too many people would agree with you. Considering I'm a fan of neither team, neither is DG, or the Steelers fan who even admitted that Winslow is better, I'm going to go ahead and say that you're the homer.

The fact that you even note that Miller is really nothing more than a blocker/ 3rd or 4th option shows that really you think Winslow is better. Winslow is the primary option for the Browns, and would be for a lot of other teams too. He's easily top 3 at his position. Maybe Miller is "tougher" (whatever that means) but I don't think that makes up for everything else Winslow does better.

P-L
05-20-2007, 12:23 PM
I am neither a Browns or Steelers fan, and I was very high on Heath Miller coming out. But he isn't as good as Kellen Winslow.

terribletowel39
05-20-2007, 12:31 PM
Well there must be something wrong with 80-90% of the people on here because I don't think too many people would agree with you. Considering I'm a fan of neither team, neither is DG, or the Steelers fan who even admitted that Winslow is better, I'm going to go ahead and say that you're the homer.

The fact that you even note that Miller is really nothing more than a blocker/ 3rd or 4th option shows that really you think Winslow is better. Winslow is the primary option for the Browns, and would be for a lot of other teams too. He's easily top 3 at his position. Maybe Miller is "tougher" (whatever that means) but I don't think that makes up for everything else Winslow does better.

he only didn't get as many balls because Whiz was calling the plays. i loved Whiz and he is a great coach but he didn't call any plays for Miller to get the ball. the first game was an absolute showing of what Miller can do when given the chance, and maybe i'm not caught up what a TE has to be now (Lebron James type athlete) to be good but i would take Witten, Heap, Gonzalez and probably a few more i'm not thinking of over Winslow. maybe i'm too old school.

Hines
05-20-2007, 12:41 PM
I am neither a Browns or Steelers fan, and I was very high on Heath Miller coming out. But he isn't as good as Kellen Winslow.


if heath gets the ball more
i know he could be just as effective as todd heap

and i know heath can develop as a top five te in the league if he gets used right

but right now untill hes not hes just one of the best blockin tes int he game

PoopSandwich
05-20-2007, 12:53 PM
if you really don't think that Miller is a better all around tight end that Winslow there is something wrong.

I agree, who likes smart people?

Miller has just as reliable hands, he just isn't as fast, shifty blah blah, he blocks a lot better than Winslow and is tougher than Winslow.

Heath isn't as fast as Winslow, and Winslow was playing on one leg... Winslow has the best hands I've seen from a Browns player EVER, and makes some freakishly good catches... Heath does block better than Winslow, but he's not even close to being tougher than Winslow, Winslow played an entire season on basically one leg, caught 89 passes and carried plenty of defenders.[/quote]

Everytime Miller gets the ball in his hands (1 or 2 times a season) and a defender makes contact there is another 5 yards that will be gained.

So, you take a guy who gets the ball 1 or 2 times over a guy that gets it 89 times.

and you can be the best player in the game but when you are injured all the time, you can't do too much for the team.

In 2 seasons, Heath Miller has 73 receptions, 852 yards, and 11 touchdowns...

In 1 season, Winslow has 89 receptions 875 yards and 3 touchdowns (We threw alot to Heiden/Jurevicius in the red zone because Winslow was double/triple covered.

he hasn't played in 16 games the entire time he has been in the league and two season he didn't even break 10 games played.

Wrong, he played in 16 last year and started 16 last year. One year he got hurt because 2 teammates fell on his leg and broke it, another because of his own fault.

(talking about Bodden here but the idea can be applied to Winslow as well just not the stats)

Wait... I just quoted your entire thing, and you were making an argument about how Heath was better than Winslow, but you were using stats about Bodden...

WTF.

PoopSandwich
05-20-2007, 12:55 PM
he only didn't get as many balls because Whiz was calling the plays. i loved Whiz and he is a great coach but he didn't call any plays for Miller to get the ball. the first game was an absolute showing of what Miller can do when given the chance, and maybe i'm not caught up what a TE has to be now (Lebron James type athlete) to be good but i would take Witten, Heap, Gonzalez and probably a few more i'm not thinking of over Winslow. maybe i'm too old school.

The first game, Heath caught I believe a slant behind the defense and just ran, that doesn't mean squat, the defense let Heath get behind them because of a mix up and took the reception long for a touchdown, that play made up for like 1/5 or 1/6 of his entire yards that season.

And don't get me wrong, I'm actually a fan of Heath Miller... He's one player on the Steelers I actually like and respect, and coming out of College as well, but to say hes better than Winslow is just insane to me, but you have to look at my screen name obviously.

Anyways, after seeing what Winslow can do this year with some of the catches he made, I am convinced he will be a pro-bowler if he can stay healthy.

draftguru151
05-20-2007, 01:02 PM
Yea, Tillman fell for the PA and Miller was wide open and the closest guy was Zach Thomas 15 or so yards away. Real hard to run away from that.

Hines
05-20-2007, 01:06 PM
miller runs a 4.79 40

and winslow runs a 4.55

terribletowel39
05-20-2007, 01:11 PM
I agree, who likes smart people?



Heath isn't as fast as Winslow, and Winslow was playing on one leg... Winslow has the best hands I've seen from a Browns player EVER, and makes some freakishly good catches... Heath does block better than Winslow, but he's not even close to being tougher than Winslow, Winslow played an entire season on basically one leg, caught 89 passes and carried plenty of defenders.



So, you take a guy who gets the ball 1 or 2 times over a guy that gets it 89 times.



In 2 seasons, Heath Miller has 73 receptions, 852 yards, and 11 touchdowns...

In 1 season, Winslow has 89 receptions 875 yards and 3 touchdowns (We threw alot to Heiden/Jurevicius in the red zone because Winslow was double/triple covered.



Wrong, he played in 16 last year and started 16 last year. One year he got hurt because 2 teammates fell on his leg and broke it, another because of his own fault.



Wait... I just quoted your entire thing, and you were making an argument about how Heath was better than Winslow, but you were using stats about Bodden...

WTF.[/quote]

i split the paragraphs for a reason. first was about Winslow and second was about Bodden.

Philliez01
05-20-2007, 01:12 PM
I am a fan of Heath Miller, he's a good, quality TE in the NFL and should be for quite some time. However, his skills (including blocking) are good but nothing really stands out about his overall play as compared to Winslow. Winslow is a great talent that is doing well even though he needed micro on his knee for most of the season and played on a bum knee. If he was completely healthy, he's a threat to Gates / Gonzo as the best TE in the league.

Miller is good, definitely, but Winslow is just a better overall talent (outside of blocking and maybe attitude?)

KILLERSANTA
05-20-2007, 01:16 PM
i dont see why jay cutler is being thrown on all these lists, he really hasn't proven anything yet

Jay Cutler is so overhype on this board....It's nuts.....Matt Leinart > Cutler!

KILLERSANTA
05-20-2007, 01:18 PM
Boldin made the pro bowl in 2003 (rookie year) and 2006. Fitz made it in 2005.

This has nothing to do with the thread....But don't you think you need a new sig?

kalbears13
05-20-2007, 01:20 PM
This has nothing to do with the thread....But don't you think you need a new sig?

I can't see it for some reason, so then definitely get a new one. What is it?

Ravens1991
05-20-2007, 01:50 PM
A Ken Hamlin sig I believe.

Philliez01
05-20-2007, 02:14 PM
i dont see why jay cutler is being thrown on all these lists, he really hasn't proven anything yet

I get what you are saying but really the QB position has so many people who have been to a Pro Bowl that the production range is fluctuated between "Great", "Good" and "Bad".

For example, here are the non - rookie starters who haven't been to a Pro Bowl.

Ben Roethlisberger
Alex Smith
JP Losman
Jake Delhomme (I *BELIEVE*)
Byron Leftwich
Matt Schaub
Josh McCown
Jon Kitna
Tavaris Jackson
Rexyback Grossman
Matt Leinart
Jay Cutler
VY? (he was an alternate, so I guess we can't count him)
Damon Huard
Charlie Frye

I might have forgotten a few but that is the overall list. Outside of Ben Roethlisberger (and maybe Kitna) that list is composed of guys who have either:

a) Not have a significant amount of starts to be considered for the PB (Jackson, Schaub)

b) Guys who are veterans who have enjoyed a minor degree of success but nothing outstanding (Delhomme, Huard)

c) Guys who have limited NFL experience and just started showing signs of advanced play (Smith, Losman, Grossman)

d) Guys who are on the hot seat for a reason, with a rookie in the wings (McCown, Frye)

e) Injury Concerns (Leftwich)

So really we are going off guys like Leinart and Cutler who showed flashes of great play in a limited rookie season. Cutler improved Denver's offense substantially (the numbers I think are in his favor as opposed to Plummer's) and has a Pro Bowl WR Javon Walker who is a year into the playbook. Cutler also has a dangerous running game with Travis Henry and young weapons in Scheffler and Marshall.

Also look at his OL, defense and coaches. Shanny is one of the best in the business and the OL has been good in terms of success and experience. The defense is a good mix of age and athleticism and Cutler's sneaky mobility is helpful to his cause.

Just my take.

Maddenhero
05-20-2007, 02:30 PM
Delhomme made it last year, i'm pretty sure.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-20-2007, 02:32 PM
I get what you are saying but really the QB position has so many people who have been to a Pro Bowl that the production range is fluctuated between "Great", "Good" and "Bad".

For example, here are the non - rookie starters who haven't been to a Pro Bowl.

Ben Roethlisberger
Alex Smith
JP Losman
Jake Delhomme (I *BELIEVE*)
Byron Leftwich
Matt Schaub
Josh McCown
Jon Kitna
Tavaris Jackson
Rexyback Grossman
Matt Leinart
Jay Cutler
VY? (he was an alternate, so I guess we can't count him)
Damon Huard
Charlie Frye

I might have forgotten a few but that is the overall list. Outside of Ben Roethlisberger (and maybe Kitna) that list is composed of guys who have either:

a) Not have a significant amount of starts to be considered for the PB (Jackson, Schaub)

b) Guys who are veterans who have enjoyed a minor degree of success but nothing outstanding (Delhomme, Huard)

c) Guys who have limited NFL experience and just started showing signs of advanced play (Smith, Losman, Grossman)

d) Guys who are on the hot seat for a reason, with a rookie in the wings (McCown, Frye)

e) Injury Concerns (Leftwich)

So really we are going off guys like Leinart and Cutler who showed flashes of great play in a limited rookie season. Cutler improved Denver's offense substantially (the numbers I think are in his favor as opposed to Plummer's) and has a Pro Bowl WR Javon Walker who is a year into the playbook. Cutler also has a dangerous running game with Travis Henry and young weapons in Scheffler and Marshall.

Also look at his OL, defense and coaches. Shanny is one of the best in the business and the OL has been good in terms of success and experience. The defense is a good mix of age and athleticism and Cutler's sneaky mobility is helpful to his cause.

Just my take.

Yeah, I did the math a while ago, it came out to our offense netting like 24 ppg to 17 ppg with Plummer, unfortunately our D went from 14 ppg with Plummer to like 27 ppg with Cutler in. Something like that.

KILLERSANTA
05-20-2007, 03:21 PM
I can't see it for some reason, so then definitely get a new one. What is it?

Ken Hamlin in a Seahawk uniform..........

Ewing
05-20-2007, 03:50 PM
but willie is a top 5 back

So you're saying he's better than at least one of the following; Gore, LJ, Portis, Westbrook, Alexander, and Jackson?

Anyway, here's my team:

QB: Ben Roethlisberger
RB: Ronnie Brown
FB: Justin Griffith
WR: T. J. Houshmandzadeh
WR: Lee Evans
TE: Kellen Winslow
T: Michael Roos
G: Logan Mankins
C: Nick Mangold
G: Kris Dielman
T: Shane Olivea

DE: Jared Allen
DT: Vince Wilfork
DT: Ma'ake Kemoeatu
DE: Luis Castillo
OLB: Kamerion Wimbley
MLB: DeMeco Ryans
OLB: A.J. Hawk
CB: Terence Newman
CB: Leigh Bodden
S: Kerry Rhodes
S: Chris Hope

remix 6
05-20-2007, 04:10 PM
So you're saying he's better than at least one of the following; Gore, LJ, Portis, Westbrook, Alexander, and Jackson?

Anyway, here's my team:

QB: Ben Roethlisberger
RB: Ronnie Brown
FB: Justin Griffith
WR: T. J. Houshmandzadeh
WR: Lee Evans
TE: Kellen Winslow
T: Michael Roos
G: Logan Mankins
C: Nick Mangold
G: Kris Dielman
T: Shane Olivea

DE: Jared Allen
DT: Vince Wilfork
DT: Ma'ake Kemoeatu
DE: Luis Castillo
OLB: Kamerion Wimbley
MLB: DeMeco Ryans
OLB: A.J. Hawk
CB: Terence Newman
CB: Leigh Bodden
S: Kerry Rhodes
S: Chris Hope

samuel > bodden

Koppen > Mangold

not even being homer here..just the truth

Paul
05-20-2007, 04:14 PM
Samuel never made a PB?

remix 6
05-20-2007, 04:20 PM
Samuel never made a PB?

nope. last year was his standout year..still not a top 3 CB but hes better thanBodden.

Staubach12
05-20-2007, 04:22 PM
I agree that Paul is overrating Marc Colombo, though I don't agree that he's just terrible. He was solid, and average tackle on this level. Not Pro-Bowl, though.

bearsfan_51
05-20-2007, 04:26 PM
I agree that Paul is overrating Marc Colombo, though I don't agree that he's just terrible. He was solid, and average tackle on this level. Not Pro-Bowl, though.

Never said he was terrible. He's average, replaceable, certainly not above the many other people that could be named.

SuperMcGee
05-20-2007, 04:36 PM
samuel > bodden

Koppen > Mangold

not even being homer here..just the truth

Normally I don't give a whole lot of credit to the one year starters, but Mangold was really good last year and I'd take him over Koppen.

Also, I'm surprised it took so long for Lee Evans to make a list. People normally give him a lot of praise here.
Jason Peters would make my list, as well, but that's just obvious. He did finally start to get some "experts'" praise after last season. Just a beast at either tackle spot.
I've only had Bills players in mind while skimming this thread. I'm not too good with who has and hasn't made it from other teams.

XxXdragonXxX
05-20-2007, 04:54 PM
This has nothing to do with the thread....But don't you think you need a new sig?

Maybe later.

Ewing
05-20-2007, 06:32 PM
samuel > bodden

Koppen > Mangold

not even being homer here..just the truth

Says the man who thinks Brady, Pryce, and Heap have never been to Pro Bowls.

Bengals1690
05-20-2007, 06:34 PM
Says the man who thinks Brady, Pryce, and Heap have never been to Pro Bowls.

he thought it was the people who didnt make it last year, he edited it.

Ewing
05-20-2007, 06:37 PM
he thought it was the people who didnt make it last year, he edited it.

Alright and I'll agree that Samuel is probably better than Bodden but Koppen and Mangold are about equal. I'd probably give it to Mangold though.

remix 6
05-20-2007, 06:39 PM
Alright and I'll agree that Samuel is probably better than Bodden but Koppen and Mangold are about equal. I'd probably give it to Mangold though.

its not every day BB gives a big contract to an upcoming FA Patriot..Koppen and Mankins were our best last year. I know Mangold is good but im not sold just yet..definatley could be better than Koppen but off last season? doubt it.

oh and like the guy said..i didnt notice it was just playes who have NEVER made it to pro bowl..thought it was people who didnt make it last year only . my mistake.

Ewing
05-20-2007, 06:43 PM
its not every day BB gives a big contract to an upcoming FA Patriot..Koppen and Mankins were our best last year. I know Mangold is good but im not sold just yet..definatley could be better than Koppen but off last season? doubt it.

Contracts don't mean jack in terms of talent. Just go look at the contract Clements got. Mangold was given the leadership role of the line the minute the Jets drafted him. You know how insane it is for a rookie center to be the general of the line?

remix 6
05-20-2007, 06:46 PM
Contracts don't mean jack in terms of talent. Just go look at the contract Clements got. Mangold was given the leadership role of the line the minute the Jets drafted him. You know how insane it is for a rookie center to be the general of the line?

i wasnt using the contract as a barometer of his skill. im telling u how much BB thinks of him.

Ewing
05-20-2007, 06:48 PM
i wasnt using the contract as a barometer of his skill. im telling u how much BB thinks of him.

I don't care what Belichick thinks of him. That has nothing to do with how good of a player he is.

Don Vito
05-20-2007, 06:50 PM
Koppen is pretty underrated, he has missed some time over the past few seasons though. He played last year but I think if he can stay healthy for this season and continues his level of play he will start to get some more recognition.

remix 6
05-20-2007, 06:51 PM
I don't care what Belichick thinks of him. That has nothing to do with how good of a player he is.

im bringing it up because no one here has put Koppen on their list. Hes a very good player..BB thinks so . letting some people know that he deserves recognition.

i saw Wilfork dominate Mangold. Why if hes sooooo good?

Ewing
05-20-2007, 06:53 PM
im bringing it up because no one here has put Koppen on their list. Hes a very good player..BB thinks so . letting some people know that he deserves recognition.

i saw Wilfork dominate Mangold. Why if hes sooooo good?

Alright, then bring up that you think Kopeen is underrated. You keep bringing up that Belichick likes him. That has absolutely nothing to do with talent.

Every linemen in the league gets dominated every now and then. It happens.

remix 6
05-20-2007, 06:54 PM
Alright, then bring up that you think Kopeen is underrated. You keep bringing up that Belichick likes him. That has absolutely nothing to do with talent.

Every linemen in the league gets dominated every now and then. It happens.

how often did i bring BB into this? I said he thinks highly of him obviously since he gave him a big contract so he deserves recognition at least for talent.

draftguru151
05-20-2007, 06:57 PM
Mangold's rookie year was really overrated. He had a good year, but he really wasn't that dominant that he deserves this much praise after one year. I think he will be much better than Koppen, but Koppen's been better.

Ewing
05-20-2007, 07:01 PM
how often did i bring BB into this? I said he thinks highly of him obviously since he gave him a big contract so he deserves recognition at least for talent.

Including this post, four times. I'm not saying Koppen sucks but I think Mangold is a better player. How come you are only bringing this up when I post Mangold on my team? Several other people listed Mangold as well.

remix 6
05-20-2007, 07:25 PM
Including this post, four times. I'm not saying Koppen sucks but I think Mangold is a better player. How come you are only bringing this up when I post Mangold on my team? Several other people listed Mangold as well.

i wasnt directing it at you..it was everyone. just picked u since you were the closest to my mouse :)