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bigbluedefense
05-22-2007, 03:07 PM
Ive done Singletary and Lambert, now I found a cool clip on Taylor to share with the board, so I figured Id make a thread on him too. Actually, you should check out this guys profile, he has lots of cool clips from players from back then. I highly recommend it.

Anyway, this guy to me, is the greatest football player ever. We have never seen, and probably never will see a defender impact the game with such magnitude as he did. He forever changed the game. The way defenses rush the passer, the way offenses block, the way the 3-4 defense is played, the list goes on and on.

I won't say much, because Im a Giants fan and don't want to come off as a homer. I enjoy making these threads because I always felt that in order to truely understand football, you have to understand the evolution of the game and the history of the players that helped pave the way for how the current game is played. Lawrence Taylor is surely one of those guys. Players like Sam Huff, Dick Butkus, Jack Lambert, Joe Greene, LT, Deacon Jones, these guys some of the many players who helped evolve the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03-7sCmoF6w
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_taylor

Like I said, this guy has some good stuff in his profile. You should check all of it out.

Mr. Stiller
05-22-2007, 03:12 PM
Hopefully Timmons is 1/10th the Player he is.

cunningham06
05-22-2007, 03:13 PM
Don't hate, appreciate, BBD you always make appreciation threads, not that it's a bad thing. A friend of mine's uncle played for the Giants back in the day and sustained a career ending injury from Lawrence Taylor in practice.

bigbluedefense
05-22-2007, 03:19 PM
Don't hate, appreciate, BBD you always make appreciation threads, not that it's a bad thing. A friend of mine's uncle played for the Giants back in the day and sustained a career ending injury from Lawrence Taylor in practice.

He went hard in practice and at times, went a little too far. LT couldn't comprehend going 70%. It was all or nothing with him. Sorry to hear about that.

scottyboy
05-22-2007, 03:19 PM
i miss him... alot. Just so unbelievable. Knew how to use his anger and took it out on his opponents legally. Unlike a certain now retired left tackle giants fans know...

bigbluedefense
05-22-2007, 03:24 PM
you just hate offense.

it is amazing to watch him blast through guys and still get after the quarterback. i figured it was only a matter of time before someone asked if he could still play today, but seeing that video, it seems like a silly question. (clearly before seeing that video, too, but it should put that question to rest)

Lol, don't care much for offense. I love running backs, and offensive linemen, but never cared much for receivers and quarterbacks. I like tight ends too (don't make that into a joke).

Usually when i watch a football game, I like to analyze how the game is played from an X and O standpoint. Most of the time, I just key into the defense, because thats what I enjoy the most, so I have more knowledge about it compared to offense. Offense can get complicated, from the routes to the protection schemes etc.

Someone should make similar threads based on offensive guys, lol. I was thinking about making a thread dedicated to the evolution of the game, breaking down how defense evolved from 6-1 to 4-3 to 3-4 etc. And all the coaches and players who made it possible, but its simply waaaaay too long for me to do. Thats a damn thesis report.

Addict
05-22-2007, 03:27 PM
Lol, don't care much for offense. I love running backs, and offensive linemen, but never cared much for receivers and quarterbacks. I like tight ends too (don't make that into a joke).

Usually when i watch a football game, I like to analyze how the game is played from an X and O standpoint. Most of the time, I just key into the defense, because thats what I enjoy the most, so I have more knowledge about it compared to offense. Offense can get complicated, from the routes to the protection schemes etc.

Someone should make similar threads based on offensive guys, lol. I was thinking about making a thread dedicated to the evolution of the game, breaking down how defense evolved from 6-1 to 4-3 to 3-4 etc. And all the coaches and players who made it possible, but its simply waaaaay too long for me to do. Thats a damn thesis report.

Killjoy.

LT was a beast. I'd be scared silly if I was a QB.

Moses
05-22-2007, 03:34 PM
GOAT at linebacker.

http://www.elainesfinesportsart.com/images/football/13_4_B.jpg

Plus, he's awesome in the best football movie of all-time.

http://www.filmfashion.nl/stills/anygivensunday10.jpg

draftguru151
05-22-2007, 03:35 PM
The old head coach at my school won a SB with LT, I never asked him about LT though, would have been smart, oh well.

bigbluedefense
05-22-2007, 03:37 PM
The Saints hold a special place in my heart for passing up Lawrence Taylor for a running back who lasted 6 years I believe in the NFL and never rushed for more than 1200 yards.


God bless you New Orlean Saints. I can't thank you enough for that. Especially when every single GM in the NFL wouldve chose LT with the #1 pick in that draft.

bearsfan_51
05-22-2007, 03:39 PM
Good thing he played in the 80's. Goddell would have banned his ass from the league by year five.

bigbluedefense
05-22-2007, 03:40 PM
Good thing he played in the 80's. Goddell would have banned his ass from the league by year five.

More like year 3.

The Legend
05-22-2007, 03:46 PM
i still think LT look more scary with a beard

etk
05-22-2007, 03:50 PM
I should make a Derrick Brooks appreciation thread when he retires. Your sig says "Instincts>Speed". Brooks is exceptional at both and revolutionized the linebacker position from a speed and coverage standpoint. Great person on and off the field too.

etk
05-22-2007, 04:03 PM
i don't know that brooks has "revolutionized" the position in anything approaching the way taylor did.

Maybe not, but how many undersized WILL linebackers (Cover 2) are now among the league leaders in tackles every year? A lot. Brooks opened the doors (along with Ray Lewis) for speedier undersized linebackers or 'tweeners. Taylor revolutionized the 3-4 OLB disruptor position. It's apples and oranges.

bigbluedefense
05-22-2007, 04:10 PM
Maybe not, but how many undersized WILL linebackers (Cover 2) are now among the league leaders in tackles every year? A lot. Brooks opened the doors (along with Ray Lewis) for speedier undersized linebackers or 'tweeners. Taylor revolutionized the 3-4 OLB disruptor position. It's apples and oranges.

I wouldn't call him undersized. He was 6 3" 247. I think he was the closest thing to LT as a LB from a pass rushing standpoint. The major knock on him was that he wasn't a well rounded player. A 90s version of Dwight Freeney sort of (kind of). Still loved him as a player though.

etk
05-22-2007, 04:13 PM
I wouldn't call him undersized. He was 6 3" 247. I think he was the closest thing to LT as a LB from a pass rushing standpoint. The major knock on him was that he wasn't a well rounded player. A 90s version of Dwight Freeney sort of (kind of). Still loved him as a player though.

Are we talking about the same Brooks here?

bigbluedefense
05-22-2007, 04:13 PM
Are we talking about the same Brooks here?

WOW, why did I think you were talking about Derrick Thomas?

Stupid me. My bad.

etk
05-22-2007, 04:16 PM
WOW, why did I think you were talking about Derrick Thomas?

Stupid me. My bad.

I figured that's who you meant. He was a great pass rusher, I hope he makes the HOF soon.

diabsoule
05-22-2007, 04:24 PM
Linebacker is my favorite position on the football field and most of my favorite players of all time played that position. And of course, I have to appreciate and like LT. One of, if not the best, linebacker of all time as well as one of the best NFL players of all time.

jbeans187
05-22-2007, 04:35 PM
Check out LT's book. One of the most entertaining football books i have ever read. I gained a whole new respect for him after the things he did off the field and was still able to be one of the best LB's ever. He used to go out saturday nights and get hammered as well as doing some other things then drive to giants stadium and the ball boys would wake him up before the game.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
05-22-2007, 04:57 PM
One time, in the SB against the Bills, someone on the Giants muttered "Oh God, their offense is unstoppable", to which LT replied "Please, call me Lawrence. And we'll see about the "unstoppable" thing. They said the same thing about the dinosaurs."

bearsfan_51
05-22-2007, 05:05 PM
Maybe not, but how many undersized WILL linebackers (Cover 2) are now among the league leaders in tackles every year? A lot. Brooks opened the doors (along with Ray Lewis) for speedier undersized linebackers or 'tweeners. Taylor revolutionized the 3-4 OLB disruptor position. It's apples and oranges.
Tony Dungy opened those doors more than anyone else. And to a lesser degree Jimmy Johnson. They were the ones smart enough to figure out that speed trumps size on defense as well as offense.

bigbluedefense
05-22-2007, 05:16 PM
Tony Dungy opened those doors more than anyone else. And to a lesser degree Jimmy Johnson. They were the ones smart enough to figure out that speed trumps size on defense as well as offense.

*squint*

I disagree good sir....I disagreee...

bearsfan_51
05-22-2007, 05:18 PM
*squint*

I disagree good sir....I disagreee...
I know you do. But you're still wrong. Haha..

Even the *good* 3-4 defenses are predicated on speed. Look at the Ravens. That's arguably the fastest defense in the NFL.

The days of the big plodding 3-4 defenses are done. The Cowboys of last year was a perfect example. Parcells hand picked that defense and they absolutely sucked because they were so damn slow they could neither create pressure or cover anybody. Why you continue to cover your eyes and plug your ears on that is beyond me.

bigbluedefense
05-22-2007, 05:20 PM
I know you do. But you're still wrong. Haha..

Even the *good* 3-4 defenses are predicated on speed. Look at the Ravens. That's arguably the fastest defense in the NFL.

The days of the big plodding 3-4 defenses are done. The Cowboys of last year was a perfect example. Parcells hand picked that defense and they absolutely sucked because they were so damn slow they could neither create pressure or cover anybody. Why you continue to cover your eyes and plug your ears on that is beyond me.

Bellichick's front 7 is in fact bigger and stronger than Parcells, and built on the same exact scheme. Don't believe me, add up the front 7 body masses of each team and see if Im wrong.....

Parcells defense was simply not ready yet. Theyre still maturing.

Moses
05-22-2007, 05:21 PM
I know you do. But you're still wrong. Haha..

Even the *good* 3-4 defenses are predicated on speed. Look at the Ravens. That's arguably the fastest defense in the NFL.

The days of the big plodding 3-4 defenses are done. The Cowboys of last year was a perfect example. Parcells hand picked that defense and they absolutely sucked because they were so damn slow they could neither create pressure or cover anybody. Why you continue to cover your eyes and plug your ears on that is beyond me.

Speed is important, but I think size is also important. If defences are too small they wear down as the season goes on. The Falcons are arguably the fastest team in the league but every year they wear down and collapse.

bearsfan_51
05-22-2007, 05:26 PM
Bellichick's front 7 is in fact bigger and stronger than Parcells, and built on the same exact scheme. Don't believe me, add up the front 7 body masses of each team and see if Im wrong.....

Parcells defense was simply not ready yet. Theyre still maturing.

That defense has a lot of speed though too. Size can be an important aspect, but it's not as important as speed. Speed is absolutely essential. If you have a slow defense you're going to get picked apart.

And the Cowboys need to be retooled. There is talent, and Ware is a freak with lots of speed if they figured out how to properly use him, but there are a lot of players that were out of position.

bearsfan_51
05-22-2007, 05:27 PM
Speed is important, but I think size is also important. If defences are too small they wear down as the season goes on. The Falcons are arguably the fastest team in the league but every year they wear down and collapse.
The Falcons suck. Haha...

They wear down because they can't get a pass rush.

Moses
05-22-2007, 05:27 PM
That defense has a lot of speed though too. Size can be an important aspect, but it's not as important as speed. Speed is absolutely essential. If you have a slow defense you're going to get picked apart.

And the Cowboys need to be retooled. There is talent, and Ware is a freak with lots of speed if they figured out how to properly use him, but there are a lot of players that were out of position.

Would you rather have a slow defence (like the Cowboys that you mentioned) or a small defence (like the Colts)? Personally, I'd take the bigger, slower defence everytime.

Moses
05-22-2007, 05:28 PM
The Falcons suck. Haha...

They wear down because they can't get a pass rush.

That's because their top pass rushers (Abraham, Kerney, Coleman) are all undersized and wear down as the season goes on.

stephenson86
05-22-2007, 05:30 PM
i really am not a defense man in the slightest but LT, has to be one of my favorite players ever

once coming to a team meeting with a bed head attatched to his wrist by a handcuff because the hooker he was with had lost the key LOL

love that guy

bearsfan_51
05-22-2007, 05:31 PM
Would you rather have a slow defence (like the Cowboys that you mentioned) or a small defence (like the Colts)? Personally, I'd take the bigger, slower defence everytime.
That's a teerrrrrrrible example.

The Cowboys spent tons of first round picks and money on their defense.

The Colts spend more money on their recievers than they do on their defense as a whole. It's clear that they are ok with having a mediocre defense at the expense of having a tremendous offense. It has nothing to do with size.

kmartin575
05-22-2007, 05:36 PM
Taylor couldn't hold Derrick Thomas' jock.

Moses
05-22-2007, 05:36 PM
That's a teerrrrrrrible example.

The Cowboys spent tons of first round picks and money on their defense.

The Colts spend more money on their recievers than they do on their defense as a whole. It's clear that they are ok with having a mediocre defense at the expense of having a tremendous offense. It has nothing to do with size.

Still, the theory remains the same. Smaller defences wear down. Bigger ones tend not too. I would rather have a defence that is at it's best late in the season compared to a defence that wears down.

P-L
05-22-2007, 05:39 PM
Taylor couldn't hold Derrick Thomas' jock.

You're kidding right?

kmartin575
05-22-2007, 05:39 PM
That defense has a lot of speed though too. Size can be an important aspect, but it's not as important as speed. Speed is absolutely essential. If you have a slow defense you're going to get picked apart.

And the Cowboys need to be retooled. There is talent, and Ware is a freak with lots of speed if they figured out how to properly use him, but there are a lot of players that were out of position.

I disagree.

Dallas' defense is going to be much better under Wade Phillips. The only position they really need an upgrade at is nose tackle where they need a Jamal Williams, Casey Hampton, or Vince Wilfork type.

kmartin575
05-22-2007, 05:41 PM
You're kidding right?

Nope

Derrick Thomas is the one with the record for the most sacks in a game with 7. He had another game where he had 6 sacks in a single game.

Thomas would have blown LT's records out of the water if his career had not been ended prematurely by death.

Oh yeah, Thomas wasn't a cokehead like LT.

bearsfan_51
05-22-2007, 05:44 PM
I disagree.

Dallas' defense is going to be much better under Wade Phillips. The only position they really need an upgrade at is nose tackle where they need a Jamal Williams, Casey Hampton, or Vince Wilfork type.

Whatever.

Dallas' defense looks nice on paper. That's it. People really need to stop believing the hype. It's the same thing as Mike Vick untill about 1-2 years ago. People kept saying that Mike Vick was a good quarterback so much that people believed it. The only problem is that he's not a very good quarterback, he just showed flashes of greatness that fooled people, same as the Cowboys defense.

Ravens1991
05-22-2007, 05:46 PM
LT was the complete package buddy, in a 4-3 he could play DE, OLB, and MLB(if somebody could call plays). At 3-4 he can play OLB and ILB. He could blitz cover and stuff the run like a madman.

scottyboy
05-22-2007, 06:39 PM
LT is the best LB of all time. Revolutionized the way LB's played, and invented the strip.

Also, BBD, i agree. I want a hard hitting team that can knock fear into an offense. Speed is nice, but a Giants example is Will Allen. very fast, but still got burnt alot. I'd take a strong, forceful, smart D, then a speedy agile D.

but thats just me

yourfavestoner
05-22-2007, 06:41 PM
I should make a Derrick Brooks appreciation thread when he retires. Your sig says "Instincts>Speed". Brooks is exceptional at both and revolutionized the linebacker position from a speed and coverage standpoint. Great person on and off the field too.

Jack Ham was already revolutionizing the Cover Two OLB position while Derrick Brooks was in diapers.

kmartin575
05-22-2007, 06:44 PM
LT was the complete package buddy, in a 4-3 he could play DE, OLB, and MLB(if somebody could call plays). At 3-4 he can play OLB and ILB. He could blitz cover and stuff the run like a madman.

So was Derrick Thomas. He played both DE and OLB for the Chiefs.

yourfavestoner
05-22-2007, 06:56 PM
Nope

Derrick Thomas is the one with the record for the most sacks in a game with 7. He had another game where he had 6 sacks in a single game.

Thomas would have blown LT's records out of the water if his career had not been ended prematurely by death.

Oh yeah, Thomas wasn't a cokehead like LT.

:looks at location:

Makes sense now.

BlindSite
05-22-2007, 07:05 PM
*squint*

I disagree good sir....I disagreee...

wasn't the orange crush defense the first to use speed over size?

Ravens1991
05-22-2007, 07:12 PM
So was Derrick Thomas. He played both DE and OLB for the Chiefs.

Did Derrick Thomas lose his virginity before his father did like LT? Didnt think so.

ny10804
05-22-2007, 07:39 PM
http://photos-640.ak.facebook.com/ip002/v65/225/109/724715602/n724715602_78640_3169.jpg

He's why I wear the number.

Mr. Stiller
05-22-2007, 07:42 PM
Speed is important, but I think size is also important. If defences are too small they wear down as the season goes on. The Falcons are arguably the fastest team in the league but every year they wear down and collapse.

I think a balance between Speed/Size and Technique is better than just a strong slow or fast weak defense.

Moses
05-22-2007, 07:49 PM
I think a balance between Speed/Size and Technique is better than just a strong slow or fast weak defense.

Obviously a balance is important and the best players have a balance of the two (Shawne Merriman, Julius Peppers, etc.). However, would you rather have a Robert Mathis or a Charles Grant? Personally, I'd go with Grant.

bearsfan_51
05-22-2007, 08:07 PM
Obviously a balance is important and the best players have a balance of the two (Shawne Merriman, Julius Peppers, etc.). However, would you rather have a Robert Mathis or a Charles Grant? Personally, I'd go with Grant.
Since when is Grant not fast? Your comparisons are the WORST in the history of Western Civilization!! (Bill Walton moment).

How about Robert Mathis or Phillip Daniels? That would be a more fair comparison.

steelersfan43
05-22-2007, 08:51 PM
Check out LT's book. One of the most entertaining football books i have ever read. I gained a whole new respect for him after the things he did off the field and was still able to be one of the best LB's ever. He used to go out saturday nights and get hammered as well as doing some other things then drive to giants stadium and the ball boys would wake him up before the game.


Why would you respect him more for being an idiot?

JK17
05-22-2007, 08:55 PM
Personally, he's my favorite defensive player of all time too, I think he's hard to not be the favorite of any one whose played LB in their lives. The intensity he brought to the game is something I wish every San Diego player could watch and learn from. Its a shame the drug abuse he put himself through, but his impact as a football player is something that cannot be shrugged off because of those problems...

On a side note, my father played golf with him once, just ran into him and his agent at a golf club, and they needed another guy...had more respect for my dad after that haha.

etk
05-22-2007, 09:06 PM
Tony Dungy opened those doors more than anyone else. And to a lesser degree Jimmy Johnson. They were the ones smart enough to figure out that speed trumps size on defense as well as offense.

Absolutely, he started the defense but Brooks was still the catalyst. Without Brooks would there still be Ernie Sims' and Cato June's? Definitely. Without Taylor would there still be Merriman's and Ware's? Also yes. They were just the prototypes and models to build off of.
Linebacker is my favorite position on the football field and most of my favorite players of all time played that position. And of course, I have to appreciate and like LT. One of, if not the best, linebacker of all time as well as one of the best NFL players of all time.

How can Linebacker not be your favourite position? Linebackers are the definition of football: Gritty, aggressive, intense, strong and fast. They're the leaders of the defense and have to be skilled in all areas of the game while maintaining technique and fundamentals. Taylor embodies all of these characteristics and he's without question the best Linebacker of all time in my opinion.

yourfavestoner
05-22-2007, 09:11 PM
Absolutely, he started the defense but Brooks was still the catalyst. Without Brooks would there still be Ernie Sims' and Cato June's? Definitely. Without Taylor would there still be Merriman's and Ware's? Also yes. They were just the prototypes and models to build off of.


How can Linebacker not be your favourite position? Linebackers are the definition of football: Gritty, aggressive, intense, strong and fast. They're the leaders of the defense and have to be skilled in all areas of the game while maintaining technique and fundamentals. Taylor embodies all of these characteristics and he's without question the best Linebacker of all time in my opinion.

Like I said earlier and have said before: without Jack Ham there is no Derrick Brooks.

etk
05-22-2007, 09:12 PM
Like I said earlier and have said before: without Jack Ham there is no Derrick Brooks.

Please elaborate, I'm not going to argue because I don't have enough knowledge about Jack Ham or this statement.

yourfavestoner
05-22-2007, 09:26 PM
Please elaborate, I'm not going to argue because I don't have enough knowledge about Jack Ham or this statement.

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=86

There's something to start you off.

Keep in mind that Tony Dungy was a safety and teammate of Ham on that same Steel Curtain Pittsburgh defense in the 70s. Their base scheme revolved around Cover Two principles and Ham was an absolute stud for them.

etk
05-22-2007, 09:30 PM
http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=86

There's something to start you off.

Keep in mind that Tony Dungy was a safety and teammate of Ham on that same Steel Curtain Pittsburgh defense in the 70s. Their base scheme revolved around Cover Two principles and Ham was an absolute stud for them.

Had speed, intelligence, exceptional ability to diagnose plays. . . Gained reputation as big-play defender

Sounds an awful lot like Brooks. Too bad he went to Penn State...

Mr. Stiller
05-22-2007, 09:37 PM
Please elaborate, I'm not going to argue because I don't have enough knowledge about Jack Ham or this statement.

Nolls original defensive Concept was the base that the "Tampa2" Was built on.

You have a undersized Will backer with speed and huge heart: Jack Ham
You have a leader and plugger with pass coverage capabilities: Jack Lambert

Tony Dungy was a Safety in the original Noll defense.

To compound what the other guy was saying. Noll originated the "Cover-2" Defense. It's what drove Pittsburghs dominant teams of the 70's. So dominant that the NFL Imposed rules to allow other teams a chance. Much like the "Ty Law rule". Our defense was so tough to pass on, that the NFL actually made different rules.

But what he was getting at is your saying "Brooks is the originator of the undersized Will linebacker".

Jack Ham was like 6'1 170lbs, but was the most ferocious LB (At worst behind Jack Lambert) In the 1970's.

I think he's saying you can't credit Brooks for the Ernie Sims and such without crediting Ham for the Brooks.

bigbluedefense
05-22-2007, 11:39 PM
That defense has a lot of speed though too. Size can be an important aspect, but it's not as important as speed. Speed is absolutely essential. If you have a slow defense you're going to get picked apart.

And the Cowboys need to be retooled. There is talent, and Ware is a freak with lots of speed if they figured out how to properly use him, but there are a lot of players that were out of position.


Not really. The Pats have the same ILB issues as the Cowboys from a speed standpoint. The difference is in the front 3 and SS position. No need to get into specifics. We've broken it down ad nausium (if i spelled that wrong, forgive me, its real late) in the Cowboys forum. Trust me, I know this scheme very well, it wasn't the scheme that was the issue, nor was the speed of the defense the issue. It was the mental aspect of playing the 2gap role as a 3-4 downlinemen. That was the biggest issue, plus after losing Ellis, they didn't have a credible pass rusher on the other side of Ware. And the LE in this scheme is asked to be a Leonard Marshall/Richard Seymour type, and they simply did not get that out of Spears, but I digress.

Of course speed is important too. Never said it wasn't. But I prefer the strength concept of the 3-4 over the speed concept. Having both is great, but if I had to choose, I rather go with a big strong defense that lacks a little speed compared to a fast quick defense that lacks muscle. You can't be a defense thats polarized to either end of the spectrum however. No doubt about that. But thats a misconception about the BP 3-4. Its not as slow as people make it out to be.

wasn't the orange crush defense the first to use speed over size?

No, the orange crush was the first complex hybrid defense in the NFL. One of my favorite schemes ever. It was heavily based on situational packages and substitutions, and would get killed with modern day no huddle offenses, but for its time, it was great.

It was a 3-4/4-3 hybrid. The first defense to use speed over size was Knoll's Steel Curtain, which was the predecessor to the Tampa 2.

Knoll was to Dungy what Paul Brown was to Bill Walsh's WCO.

bigbluedefense
05-22-2007, 11:53 PM
Taylor couldn't hold Derrick Thomas' jock.

Wow.


I wonder how many people actually remember watching Thomas play opposed to looking up stats on the internet.

bearsfan_51
05-23-2007, 01:06 AM
Wow.


I wonder how many people actually remember watching Thomas play opposed to looking up stats on the internet.
Exactly. Thomas is a marginal HOF player. I say that every year and every year people are suprised when he doesn't get in. He doesn't even belong remotely close to the top linebacker category.

bearsfan_51
05-23-2007, 08:29 AM
you also didn't have to watch him wreck your team twice a year, every year. not that i don't agree, but there's a reason some people might be a bit biased. he was one of the better pass rushers i've seen.
People have a bias for three reasons:

1) They're Chiefs fans (see above)
2) They are obsessed with stats (likely the people that never saw him play)
3) They have a generally lack of understanding of the history of football and have a strong preference for contemporary players

These are the same people that thought Randall Cunningham should make the HOF after all.

LionSmack
05-23-2007, 09:13 AM
Derrick Thomas was a great player. Probably deserves consideration for the HOF despite the shortened career. And yes I saw him play a lot.

LT was the greatest linebacker and possibly greatest D player ever. He was a professional terror machine.

LT > Thomas by a lot.

bigbluedefense
05-23-2007, 10:08 AM
you also didn't have to watch him wreck your team twice a year, every year. not that i don't agree, but there's a reason some people might be a bit biased. he was one of the better pass rushers i've seen.



explain. i remember very little substitution on those denver teams, far less than what i've seen in the last few years at least.

Unlike current 3-4/4-3 hybrids, his hybrid consisted of substituting players for the 3-4, and substituting players for the 4-3. For example, the current Ravens team can switch formations with the current player personnell on the field at the time.

The orange crush relied more on formation specific players, and each formation had roughly 3 different players to run it. For example, if they switched to a 3-4 front, they would sub out 2 LBs for that set. Sometimes theyd sub out DTs based on what they were doing. They used situational players better than any defense I ever seen.

They didn't throw the playbook at you during the game. They came in with a certain set, and if it worked they stuck with it throughout the game. So thats why you didn't see so many substitutions when watching the game. But if the strategy coming in didnt work, he'd mix and match until it did work. His playbook was very complex and had lots of different plays, formations, and player personnell changes involved.

Tom Jackson was a situational player in this scheme. He played mostly in the 3-4 front. He was subbed out when they went to 4-3.

That is what Bellichick took out of his days with the orange crush. His scheme is the same as Parcells, but what he took from Denver is having a very complex playbook with a ton of formations and plays, and what he does is take a select group of plays and formations from that vast playbook and he hammers it into his team's head during the week of practice. That way theyre very prepared for any offense that comes their way.

Outsiders say that Bellichick uses a different gameplan every week and thats why he requires smart players. Thats sort of true. His playbook is huge, and he just takes bits and pieces of it and hammers it into his players heads during the week. But he still requires intelligent players, because if the strategy coming in doesn't work, he'll take other pieces from the playbook and throw that at his players during the game. Now for that to work you need smart players who can comprehend a large playbook and execute it on the fly if need be.

kmartin575
05-23-2007, 12:07 PM
Wow.


I wonder how many people actually remember watching Thomas play opposed to looking up stats on the internet.

I'm a Chiefs fan so I definitely remember watching him play.

bigbluedefense
05-23-2007, 12:10 PM
I'm a Chiefs fan so I definitely remember watching him play.

Great player and great pass rusher. But he's generally overrated by the masses because they just look at his stats. He wasn't a force against the run, and was average in coverage. A better version of Dwight Freeney.

He should make the HOF though. He's just not a first ballot guy is all.

kmartin575
05-23-2007, 12:12 PM
Great player and great pass rusher. But he's generally overrated by the masses because they just look at his stats. He wasn't a force against the run, and was average in coverage. A better version of Dwight Freeney.

He should make the HOF though. He's just not a first ballot guy is all.


Your right, playing the run was not his strong suit.

Maybe I came on a little strong when I said LT couldn't hold Thomas' jock.

But I think Thomas was the best pass rushing linebacker of all time.

bigbluedefense
05-23-2007, 12:17 PM
Your right, playing the run was not his strong suit.

Maybe I came on a little strong when I said LT couldn't hold Thomas' jock.

But I think Thomas was the best pass rushing linebacker of all time.

Id consider it. I dunno if he was better than LT as a pass rusher. Remember LT was getting doubled and tripled at times. And he didn't sell out to rush the passer either, which will effect your sack totals.

Its close though. I don't think anyone else comes close to either from the linebacker position when it comes to pass rush, maybe Shawne Merriman can catch DT if he continues his domination, but at this moment and time, those 2 were two of a kind.

Wish his career wasn't cut short.

bigbluedefense
05-23-2007, 10:57 PM
fair enough. i DO remember having a NT and separate DTs (and not just in the very technical definitions used here).



except against the NFC, when absolutely nothing ever worked.

either way, good breakdown. there were a lot of things i'd forgotten (i ought to find some old game tape), although it also may be that there were two (at least) versions of the "orange crush", and i may be looking at the latter (80's) version. *shrug*

The Orange Crush I refer too is the mid 80s team. I stumbled upon them very randomly quite honestly. A buddy of mine had the Superbowl Catelog from the 86 Giants and in it, it broke down the Orange crush defense of the 86 Broncos in great detail. After reading about them, I was intrigued and wanted to learn more.

So I asked my uncle, who's a nut and records tons of games to see if he had any gametape of them, and I got the 86 Superbowl, as well as 4 other games of them. So it was cool breaking down what they did, how they did it, and relating it to what was written about them in 86. After that I went on to do a lil more homework on them, the coaches, the philosophy, the roots etc and winded up learning a good deal about how they operated.

marks01234
05-24-2007, 07:43 PM
LT is the greatest LB of all time.

However, he's also one of the greatest waste of oxygen this planet has seen. He's been irresponsible junkie for most of his life. He lied, cheated and broken rules since his North Carolina days. You read his book and you realize what his life was about. The sad part is that being in the position he is - he could really do some good for the world. But no, LT glamorizes the life he lived - telling it like he would have done is over just the same if he could.

LT was supposed to speak at my younger brothers elementry school shortly after his career. He showed up two hours late and so coked up that the school wouldn't even let him talk to the kids. Guess the kids were lucky that LT actually managed to show up.

There's a reason why the ACC and North Carolina won't touch the guy (which is funny in its own right considering Carolina didn't mind him cheating and taking money when he was making big plays for them on the field)