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Tampa 2 4 life
05-22-2007, 04:07 PM
I'll pick Simms, he knows Gruden's offense and I think Garcia is past his prime, and he just had a ton of players around him in Philly.

Caddy
05-22-2007, 04:26 PM
I want Simms to start too, but ultimately, I think that Garcia will get the nod at QB. He will obviously have to win the job in training camp and if he can continue his form from last season then he will probably get the job. I hope Simms can beat him, but I am very skeptical about the chances of that happening.

etk
05-23-2007, 03:54 PM
Some of you guys overrate Garcia and his success last year. His stats may have been tremendous but I saw many of his games and he looked nothing more than an above-average game manager. He was definitely a product of his surroundings. Philadelphia pass blocked well and had many weapons like LJ Smith, Westbrook & Stallworth. One must also keep their offensive system in mind when evaluating Garcia because Reid runs a QB-friendly offense like New England with multi-WR sets & seam routes. Other backups have had similar success like AJ Feeley under that offense despite minimal talent. Our offense is more difficult to run and comprehend while our talent pool is not as deep. I wouldn't expect him to revert to his Cleveland/Detroit days but I think he will be stuck somewhere in the middle. Simms is a better playmaker and has the upside, so I don't think our coaches will bench him unless he plays poorly to start the season.

-black
05-23-2007, 06:37 PM
Simms will start....im just afraid after the VERY TOUGH first half of the season Gruden will be forced by media and fans to turn to Garcia...

Beans
05-23-2007, 07:18 PM
Simms. He'll solidify himself as the Bucs' QB this year.

Caddy
05-24-2007, 02:59 AM
I hope everyone is right about Simms starting although I'm not sure it turns out that way.

etk
05-24-2007, 10:43 AM
8-3. Me=happy.

Watchman
05-24-2007, 12:36 PM
Some of you guys overrate Garcia and his success last year. His stats may have been tremendous but I saw many of his games and he looked nothing more than an above-average game manager. He was definitely a product of his surroundings. Philadelphia pass blocked well and had many weapons like LJ Smith, Westbrook & Stallworth. One must also keep their offensive system in mind when evaluating Garcia because Reid runs a QB-friendly offense like New England with multi-WR sets & seam routes. Other backups have had similar success like AJ Feeley under that offense despite minimal talent. Our offense is more difficult to run and comprehend while our talent pool is not as deep. I wouldn't expect him to revert to his Cleveland/Detroit days but I think he will be stuck somewhere in the middle. Simms is a better playmaker and has the upside, so I don't think our coaches will bench him unless he plays poorly to start the season.


I've always wanted Simms to prove that he's the guy, he just never has. You say Garcia was nothing more than an above average game manager last year, I would say that Simms has never played at even that level on a consistent basis. Also with an offense that is "more difficult to run and comprehend," as you say I'll take the veteran over the young guy who hasn't solidified his role in that scenario.

Simms is entering what? His 5th year. If he's not the undisputed starter and this point I have a tough time believing he ever will be. The Bucs spent a lot of energy acquiring QBs this offseason, what's that old saying if you have a lot of them you don't have one.

Tampa 2 4 life
05-24-2007, 03:29 PM
I've always wanted Simms to prove that he's the guy, he just never has.

Um, how about when he lead us to the playoffs?

etk
05-24-2007, 03:43 PM
Um, how about when he lead us to the playoffs?

Just ignore him.

Watchman
05-24-2007, 04:45 PM
Um, how about when he lead us to the playoffs?

When exactly did Simms lead the Bucs to the playoffs? I recall a #1 D and a rookie running back playing a pretty significant role in the Bucs getting to the playoffs in 2005. Simms was pretty average, other than the regular season game vs. the Skins in 2005. He lead the team to that win, but that's his career highlight.

Watchman
05-24-2007, 04:48 PM
Just ignore him.

Let's ignore the Bucs' trade for Jake Plummer and signing of Jeff Garcia, to similar money as Simms, as well. Those are the actions of a franchise that really believes they have their franchise QB in place.

I'm all for Simms as the Bucs franchise QB, so long as he can prove that is what he can be, which he hasn't. He was headed for the bench in 06 before he lost his spleen.

ks_perfection
05-24-2007, 06:32 PM
When exactly did Simms lead the Bucs to the playoffs? I recall a #1 D and a rookie running back playing a pretty significant role in the Bucs getting to the playoffs in 2005. Simms was pretty average, other than the regular season game vs. the Skins in 2005. He lead the team to that win, but that's his career highlight.

I agree, he wasn't a detriment, nor was he a big contributor. If all hte players played at his level we wouldn't have made the playoffs. The fact that he was the QB does make him more important but it wasn't his play that lead us to the playoffs, just like you can't say Dilfer lead the Ravens to teh superbowl, it was there defense. Wade started but you can't say he was a big contributor to the success.

etk
05-24-2007, 07:48 PM
Let's ignore the Bucs' trade for Jake Plummer and signing of Jeff Garcia, to similar money as Simms, as well. Those are the actions of a franchise that really believes they have their franchise QB in place.

I'm all for Simms as the Bucs franchise QB, so long as he can prove that is what he can be, which he hasn't. He was headed for the bench in 06 before he lost his spleen.

Oh so you're one of those guys who thinks Philly drafted Kolb because they're sick of McNabb. Come off it, signing a veteran QB gives little indication of a team's opinion on a player. Jon Gruden loves as many QBs as he can get his hands onto and with the new salary cap he was able to pay "starters money" to 2 players. Would we have signed Garcia without the cap room? Unlikely.

Has the following thought ever crossed your mind: Last season Simms got knocked out against Carolina, leaving us with only a 6th round draft pick to lead us for the rest of the season. Do you think Gruden wants to risk that again? Now we have veteran insurance who is more than capable to fill in for injury. That's the main reason for the signing of Garcia. If you think it's because our coaches have no confidence in Simms you are sadly mistaken. Coaches don't forget a division title & playoff berth, especially not after a 4-12 season. Even if Simms had nothing to do with our playoff run he was still our starting QB and will get credit from the coaches for that. He's now older and more experienced, making it even easier to trust him.

Watchman
05-25-2007, 03:16 PM
Oh so you're one of those guys who thinks Philly drafted Kolb because they're sick of McNabb. Come off it, signing a veteran QB gives little indication of a team's opinion on a player. Jon Gruden loves as many QBs as he can get his hands onto and with the new salary cap he was able to pay "starters money" to 2 players. Would we have signed Garcia without the cap room? Unlikely.

Has the following thought ever crossed your mind: Last season Simms got knocked out against Carolina, leaving us with only a 6th round draft pick to lead us for the rest of the season. Do you think Gruden wants to risk that again? Now we have veteran insurance who is more than capable to fill in for injury. That's the main reason for the signing of Garcia. If you think it's because our coaches have no confidence in Simms you are sadly mistaken. Coaches don't forget a division title & playoff berth, especially not after a 4-12 season. Even if Simms had nothing to do with our playoff run he was still our starting QB and will get credit from the coaches for that. He's now older and more experienced, making it even easier to trust him.


Would the Bucs have signed Garcia without the cap room? You can't be serious with that question. In case you are serious I'll answer, gee no. Would you buy a new car if you didn't have any money? I'm just curious.

I might buy your arguement that the Bucs were just bringning in a veteran backup after the disaster that was the 2006 season. I don't for a few reasons. First and foremost the Bucs brought in not one but two veteran QBs with significant starting experience to compete with Simms. Second, Simms and Garcia basically signed the same contract this offseason, and I believe the Bucs are carrying approximately $7 million on their cap for Plummer. In the salary cap era teams do not pay three players starters money just because they have the cap room. Even with the increase to the cap this offseason the Bucs have been very conservative in free agencey with respect to new signings. So I'm not buying that the Bucs are bringing these QBs just because they have the cap room.

And finally, you are overstating Simms play in 2005 and completely dismissing him being the worst starting QB in the league through the first 4 games of 2006. Simms' ruptured spleen saved him the pain of being benched in my opinion. He didn't have a rough game or two in 2006, he was arguably the worst starting QB in the league for the first month of the 2006 season, in a contract year, the year he was the annointed starter for all the offseason, and went unchallenged in training camp.

I like to think that if Simms hadn't gotten hurt last year the Bucs' record wouldn't have been quite as bad. But when you consider how bad Simms was playing before he got hurt that isn't necessarily the easiest thing to prove.

It boils down to this - you think the Bucs are confident in Simms based him being the teams starting QB in 2005, and that the Plummer trade and Garcia signings are just insurance against injury. I think the Bucs aren't sold on Simms as their long term answer at QB, he was average at best in 2005, pitiful in 2006, and the Bucs grabbed a couple of starting QBs to compete with Simms for the starting spot. Their is more evidence to support my conclusion than there is to support yours.

I think the Eagles drafted Kolb because McNabb is entering his 10th year, is coming off a significant knee injury, and (I believe) has ended up on IR two of the last three season. Seems to me that drafting Kolb is looking towards the future, that future may not be next season, but perhaps it isn't to far off.

Regarding your assertion that the Bucs don't forget a Division title and playoff berth that Simms was a part of - the Bucs D and running game had more to do with the teams success in 05 than Simms did, and ask Trent Dilfer how the Ravens remembered a playoff berth and Super Bowl victory the next season.

And I'll repeat myself, I've always wanted Simms to prove that he can be the guy. Of all the QBs on the Bucs roster Simms represents the best option in terms of stability at the QB position over a long period of time. Simms has simply never solidified his position as the teams starting QB. I hope Simms proves me wrong in 07, but I dont think he will, and I don't think he'll be the starter in week 1.

Watchman
05-25-2007, 06:53 PM
If you think it's because our coaches have no confidence in Simms you are sadly mistaken. Coaches don't forget a division title & playoff berth, especially not after a 4-12 season. Even if Simms had nothing to do with our playoff run he was still our starting QB and will get credit from the coaches for that. He's now older and more experienced, making it even easier to trust him.


I just couldn't help myself, I had to come back and respond to this part of your post. Your basing your whole case that the Bucs support Chris Simms on the fact that he was the QB in 05, and even if he had nothing to do with the teams success that year he'll get credit for it? Are you serious?

If the Bucs were confident in Simms at the starting QB, why didn't they sign him to a long term deal? You yourself admitted the team had all the cap room in the world to pay 3 guys starting QB money. So it wasn't for a lack of cap space. The Bucs could have easily signed Simms to a 5, 6, or 7 year deal. Why did they only sign Simms for 2 years? Because they aren't convinced he's the long term solution at QB, that's why.

I will agree with your statement that Simms is now older, but you lose me on the "more experienced" part. Simms is more experience because he threw 1 TD and 7 INTs in 4 games last year? I guess he has 4 more starts under his belt, but if anything he regressed in 2006. If you want to chalk that up to "more experienced" feel free.

irishbucsfan
05-25-2007, 07:16 PM
I don't think etk meant that the staff were utterly convinced Simms was the long term option, but instead felt that his role in our playoff year was enough to merit another chance to start despite his poor start to 2006. And I think they've addressed one of the potential problems that existed going into 2006 which was a complete lack of competition at the QB position, allowing Simms to walk into his first year as an NFL starter unchallenged.

I don't mean to speak for etk, but that was my understanding of it.

etk
05-25-2007, 08:26 PM
It is up to Simms to prove that he's the long-term option and franchise QB. I think our coaches trust him for the present and the job will be his to lose. There's nothing Gruden wants more than a QB he can trust for the foreseeable future because he hates developing them and changing them. He wants to stick with one guy and Simms will have to perform very poorly to lose his job. He will be our opening day starter, but if he doesn't it's because of outside pressure and not Gruden's ultimate choice.

neko4
05-25-2007, 08:28 PM
He's got the same problems daddy Simms had. Injuries

JeffSamardzijaIRISH
05-25-2007, 08:31 PM
Why would you guys want Chris Simms? He sucks.

Watchman
05-25-2007, 08:41 PM
It is up to Simms to prove that he's the long-term option and franchise QB. I think our coaches trust him for the present and the job will be his to lose. There's nothing Gruden wants more than a QB he can trust for the foreseeable future because he hates developing them and changing them. He wants to stick with one guy and Simms will have to perform very poorly to lose his job. He will be our opening day starter, but if he doesn't it's because of outside pressure and not Gruden's ultimate choice.

I agree with some of what you are saying. He's #1 of the depth chart right now by default, and I don't think he'll win the TC battle. If Plummer had reported following the trade I think Simms would have been traded around the draft.

etk
05-25-2007, 08:46 PM
Why would you guys want Chris Simms? He sucks.

You're too cool for this team board, go back where you belong.

Caddy
05-25-2007, 08:46 PM
I think another thing that should be explored is the fact that this is a contract year for Gruden. He needs to perform in order to get a new contract in Tampa and if he believes that Jeff Garcia gives him the best shot at winning this year, then that is who he will go for.

-black
05-25-2007, 10:29 PM
great point....

one_of_a_kind24
05-26-2007, 12:30 AM
I think another thing that should be explored is the fact that this is a contract year for Gruden. He needs to perform in order to get a new contract in Tampa and if he believes that Jeff Garcia gives him the best shot at winning this year, then that is who he will go for.

I usually don't post much but I want to correct this. Gruden is under contract through the 2008 season.

Watchman
05-26-2007, 01:09 AM
I think another thing that should be explored is the fact that this is a contract year for Gruden. He needs to perform in order to get a new contract in Tampa and if he believes that Jeff Garcia gives him the best shot at winning this year, then that is who he will go for.

An interesting point, but I don't think the addition of Garcia shows ownership that a long term approach to winning is in place. I think Garcia upgrades the Bucs' QB position whether it be as a starter or a backup. And, if he is indeed the starter (which I believe he will be) he's not a long term solution to the QB position.

Caddy
05-26-2007, 01:46 AM
An interesting point, but I don't think the addition of Garcia shows ownership that a long term approach to winning is in place. I think Garcia upgrades the Bucs' QB position whether it be as a starter or a backup. And, if he is indeed the starter (which I believe he will be) he's not a long term solution to the QB position.

Do we know who actually lobbied for Garcia to be signed?

Watchman
05-26-2007, 01:49 AM
Do we know who actually lobbied for Garcia to be signed?

I know the team had attempted to sign him before he went to CLE and then again before he went to DET, but they didn't have the cap space to make an attractive offer.

Are you implying some sort of influence by ownership like Dan Snyder signing Jeff George?

Caddy
05-26-2007, 02:42 AM
I usually don't post much but I want to correct this. Gruden is under contract through the 2008 season.

My apologies, I think you are right although I cannot find a link.

However, I think the premise still remains. In effect, this could be somewhat of a contract year for Gruden. He is definitely on the hot seat and will need a good season if he wants to stay in Tampa. Ultimately the choice between Garcia and Simms could decide his fate.

Caddy
05-26-2007, 02:44 AM
I know the team had attempted to sign him before he went to CLE and then again before he went to DET, but they didn't have the cap space to make an attractive offer.

Are you implying some sort of influence by ownership like Dan Snyder signing Jeff George?

I'm just saying that if the owners had anything to say about his signing than your previous point about them wanting to win in the future becomes null. Obviously we probably won't really know, but it can't hurt to wonder.

etk
05-26-2007, 11:16 AM
Simms could potentially decide Gruden's fate. If he starts and succeeds obviously the team will succeed and Gruden will get a nice new extension. If Simms struggles and the offense follows suit he will probably get the can sooner rather than later. Gruden will put himself in a major hole if he starts Garcia because he will have to draft and develop a QB early. Young QBs rarely have success, especially not in Gruden's WCO. This could mean 2+ difficult seasons and surely Gruden will be fired long before the QB adjusts. I doubt the Glazers would stick with him through several losing seasons no matter the circumstances. Starting Garcia is basically a lose-lose for Gruden and the organization because of the pains of rebuilding under a new QB. I don't find rebuilding a team to be endearing at all and I'm surprised so many of you hate Simms enough to want to go through that process. Simms gives us our greatest chance for prolonged success and for that reason he should be given a long trial period again this season (5+ games).

one_of_a_kind24
05-26-2007, 01:03 PM
My apologies, I think you are right although I cannot find a link.

However, I think the premise still remains. In effect, this could be somewhat of a contract year for Gruden. He is definitely on the hot seat and will need a good season if he wants to stay in Tampa. Ultimately the choice between Garcia and Simms could decide his fate.


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bucs/2004-02-03-gruden-extension_x.htm I mine as well through my $.02 on the topic. Chris Simms doesn't appear to understand the playbook. He said himself last year that Grads understood the offense better than he did. I am not going to find a link where he said that but he did say it. This topic is Garcia vs Simms but what happens if Plummer reports to training camp and wants to play? After all he hasn't sent in his retirement papers.

Watchman
05-26-2007, 02:13 PM
I don't find rebuilding a team to be endearing at all and I'm surprised so many of you hate Simms enough to want to go through that process. Simms gives us our greatest chance for prolonged success and for that reason he should be given a long trial period again this season (5+ games).


It has nothing to do with hating Simms. He's just never convinced me that he is that guy. I agree with much of what your saying if Simms doesn't step up and prove he's the guy it sets the franchise back. Garcia is nothing more than a stop gap who at best could give the Bucs 2-3 years as a starting QB. I guess if Simms isn't the guy and Garcia is you draft/sign a young QB to groom during that time. I agree that could be detrimental to Gruden's career in Tampa.

Didn't Simms get a long trial period at the beginning of 06. You are calling for at least 5 games in 07, well we all say Simms in 4 games in 06. What out of those games demands additional auditioning? How many trial periods does Simms need. He saw some action in 04, started most of the season in 05, and 4 games in 06. At what point have you seen enough? He is or he isn't? If he beats out Garcia maybe I'll have a little glimmer of optimism, but I just don't see it happening.

Watchman
05-26-2007, 02:17 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/bucs/2004-02-03-gruden-extension_x.htm I mine as well through my $.02 on the topic. Chris Simms doesn't appear to understand the playbook. He said himself last year that Grads understood the offense better than he did. I am not going to find a link where he said that but he did say it. This topic is Garcia vs Simms but what happens if Plummer reports to training camp and wants to play? After all he hasn't sent in his retirement papers.

I believe that if Plummer had already reported the Bucs would have at least tried to trade Simms. I think that if Plummer does report he would at some point win the starting QB spot, depending on when he hypothecially shows up. NFL Network reported last night that Garcia is picking up the playbook quickly and impressing coaches, that an a quarter will buy you a newspaper.

etk
05-26-2007, 02:55 PM
What did Simms do in 2005 do warrant losing the job? He was the lone bright spot on our offense in losing the wild card playoffs. Oh right, and who was our starting QB in that playoff run? 3 lousy games and 1 mediocre one & injury does not outweigh his 2005 impact and performance. He should be given a clean slate at the very least with a substantial opportunity to prove himself once again behind an improved offensive line and more experience offense (including himself).

Watchman
05-26-2007, 03:17 PM
What did Simms do in 2005 do warrant losing the job? He was the lone bright spot on our offense in losing the wild card playoffs. Oh right, and who was our starting QB in that playoff run? 3 lousy games and 1 mediocre one & injury does not outweigh his 2005 impact and performance. He should be given a clean slate at the very least with a substantial opportunity to prove himself once again behind an improved offensive line and more experience offense (including himself).

If Simms was the lone offensive bright spot in the 2005 playoff loss than your standards are pretty low 200 yds. passing 1 rush TD 2 INTs. It would be more accurate to say that there was no bright spot on offense. Simms became the starting QB due to injury, he never beat anyone for the job. I think someone else said in this thread that Simms wasn't a detriment to the team in 05, but he wasn't necessarily an asset either. I think that sums up his play pretty well, and that's not the description of a franchise QB. He was average. The point I think your missing is that Simms didn't really make an impact in 05, it wasn't a break out seaon for him. He was average at best. In 06 he was pitiful and heading toward the bench. The Bucs didn't make the playoffs in 2005 because of Chris Simms, period. They made the playoffs because of defense and Caddy rebounding at the end of the season.

Just so I understand you an average stretch of games in 05, a horrific month in 06, and you think he should be given yet another opportunity to prove himself? When he's never legitimately earned the starting QB spot?

I guess though you are getting your wish. Simms is being given an opportunity to prove himself, yet again, fortunately this time he has to earn the spot in training camp, while competing with a QB who has previously performed at a high level.

etk
05-26-2007, 04:28 PM
If Simms was the lone offensive bright spot in the 2005 playoff loss than your standards are pretty low 200 yds. passing 1 rush TD 2 INTs.

I assume you don't watch Buccaneers football but rather you just look up the stats and draw conclusions from those. Both of Simms' INTs were tipped passes and I wouldn't blame him for those. He made smart decisions and throws despite having defenders in his face constantly (good way to describe the whole season). He threw a game-tying TD pass to Edell Shepherd that was dropped at the last second. It was one of the most beautiful deep balls I have ever seen. I guess you're entitled to your own opinion that he was "average" the whole season. I guess you could say he was bad against SF & Carolina early on in 2005 but those were his first career starts. That has to count for something. After those 2 games he improved and adjusted pretty well with Washington as his breakout game.

-black
05-26-2007, 05:08 PM
everyone was calling Chris Simms the "comeback kid" in 2005. That was a very impressive season.

Caddy
05-26-2007, 06:12 PM
I assume you don't watch Buccaneers football but rather you just look up the stats and draw conclusions from those. Both of Simms' INTs were tipped passes and I wouldn't blame him for those. He made smart decisions and throws despite having defenders in his face constantly (good way to describe the whole season). He threw a game-tying TD pass to Edell Shepherd that was dropped at the last second. It was one of the most beautiful deep balls I have ever seen. I guess you're entitled to your own opinion that he was "average" the whole season. I guess you could say he was bad against SF & Carolina early on in 2005 but those were his first career starts. That has to count for something. After those 2 games he improved and adjusted pretty well with Washington as his breakout game.

He does it an awful lot so to consider it not his fault might be stretching the truth a little.

Watchman
05-26-2007, 06:30 PM
I assume you don't watch Buccaneers football but rather you just look up the stats and draw conclusions from those. Both of Simms' INTs were tipped passes and I wouldn't blame him for those. He made smart decisions and throws despite having defenders in his face constantly (good way to describe the whole season). He threw a game-tying TD pass to Edell Shepherd that was dropped at the last second. It was one of the most beautiful deep balls I have ever seen. I guess you're entitled to your own opinion that he was "average" the whole season. I guess you could say he was bad against SF & Carolina early on in 2005 but those were his first career starts. That has to count for something. After those 2 games he improved and adjusted pretty well with Washington as his breakout game.


The bottom line is in the playoff game vs. the Skins the D got it done and the O didn't, and the result was a loss. Simms, the QB who you say was so impressive during the season, and had his "breakout game" vs. the same team didn't get it done. Simms was average, stellar in one game, bad in some, ok in others. Down the stretch with the exception of the Skins game Simms had a lot of help from the D and running game when the Bucs won. His stats were average, his play was average.

Watchman
05-26-2007, 06:31 PM
everyone was calling Chris Simms the "comeback kid" in 2005. That was a very impressive season.

What exactly was he coming back from? The bench?

etk
05-27-2007, 09:21 AM
C'mon, I understand if you don't think Simms deserves as much credit as he receives but you are basically taking away everything this man has achieved as a football player and crediting it to someone else. That's just plain ridiculous. Let's face it: teams don't win as many games as we won in '05 without solid QB play leading them to the playoffs. His play might be mediocre in your eyes but it got the job done and warrants respect. Brad Johnson & Rex Grossman had similar question marks.

From my understanding of football, the QB is not responsible for 95% of tipped passes. The job of the quarterback is to make the 3-step drop and deliver the ball to the primary target. It's not his fault when his offensive linemen can't maintain position on rushers and keep them down on the ground. In some ways tipped passes are uncontrollable from anyone's perspective as the QB can't anticipate when the lineman will jump and the lineman can't keep them from jumping without breaking rules. If the QB hesitates to make a throw in fear of getting a pass tipped, he will get crushed. Simms is 6'4 with a high release point so I wouldn't fault him for getting unlucky too often. Most of the blame should fall on the Coach for calling too many short passes and 3-step drops and not enough shotgun. Interestingly enough we will be using more shotgun this season. Jeff Garcia is 6'1 so I would expect even more tipped passes with him at the helm (unless he does the Flutie jump-pass).

etk
05-27-2007, 09:22 AM
everyone was calling Chris Simms the "comeback kid" in 2005. That was a very impressive season.

I remember that title too, but I can't remember which media source it came from. It was after the Washington game.

Watchman
05-27-2007, 04:53 PM
From my understanding of football, the QB is not responsible for 95% of tipped passes. The job of the quarterback is to make the 3-step drop and deliver the ball to the primary target. It's not his fault when his offensive linemen can't maintain position on rushers and keep them down on the ground. In some ways tipped passes are uncontrollable from anyone's perspective as the QB can't anticipate when the lineman will jump and the lineman can't keep them from jumping without breaking rules. If the QB hesitates to make a throw in fear of getting a pass tipped, he will get crushed. Simms is 6'4 with a high release point so I wouldn't fault him for getting unlucky too often. Most of the blame should fall on the Coach for calling too many short passes and 3-step drops and not enough shotgun. Interestingly enough we will be using more shotgun this season. Jeff Garcia is 6'1 so I would expect even more tipped passes with him at the helm (unless he does the Flutie jump-pass).

Simms has a notoriously, painfully slow release. I'm curious how did Grads compare in number of tips per attempt?

SpinaMan
05-28-2007, 12:59 AM
I would like to add that Caddy fumbled the ball against Washington in that playoff game that Sean Taylor took to the house. That really hurt us and plus Edell Shepard dropped a beautiful pass and then we missed the second attempt after the dropped ball.

There is no reason why we can't be a playoff team like we were in 2005 (11-5) We have almost have the same players with better additions. There should be no excuse not to be above .500. That's just my 2 cents.

Caddy
05-28-2007, 05:05 AM
I would like to add that Caddy fumbled the ball against Washington in that playoff game that Sean Taylor took to the house. That really hurt us and plus Edell Shepard dropped a beautiful pass and then we missed the second attempt after the dropped ball.

There is no reason why we can't be a playoff team like we were in 2005 (11-5) We have almost have the same players with better additions. There should be no excuse not to be above .500. That's just my 2 cents.

That in itself is a problem. Our boys Brooks, Barber etc don't have much left in the tank.

TRJ997
05-31-2007, 10:42 AM
Removed...

Watchman
06-04-2007, 01:18 PM
That in itself is a problem. Our boys Brooks, Barber etc don't have much left in the tank.

I agree. The organization is currently feeling the pain from losing all those draft picks.

Caddy
06-05-2007, 01:14 AM
I agree. The organization is currently feeling the pain from losing all those draft picks.

We got a Super Bowl out of it so I'm not really complaining.

Watchman
06-05-2007, 10:11 AM
We got a Super Bowl out of it so I'm not really complaining.

We agree again.

dbtb135
06-07-2007, 02:29 AM
It is up to Simms to prove that he's the long-term option and franchise QB. I think our coaches trust him for the present and the job will be his to lose.

He will be our opening day starter, but if he doesn't it's because of outside pressure and not Gruden's ultimate choice.

Simms is coming into an open competition for the starting position. For it to be "his to lose", he'd have to be the #1 guy. There is no #1 guy right now.

Then you go on to say that IF he doesn't win the job, it's not because of his play. Geez, you think Gruden wants an inferior player out there commanding our offense at it's most important position when HIS JOB IS ON THE LINE? That sir, is a big stretch you're trying to make there. Good luck with that.

Aside from that, the Glazers have been his biggest supporters. And Bruce Allen was brought in by Gruden and has been Gru's boy going back to Oakland. Allen has historically never been one to tamper with Gruden's on the field decisions and is more of a cap whiz than anything. So who exactly would be this "outside pressure?"

I think another thing that should be explored is the fact that this is a contract year for Gruden. He needs to perform in order to get a new contract in Tampa and if he believes that Jeff Garcia gives him the best shot at winning this year, then that is who he will go for.

It isn't a contract year, but it might as well be. The point that he needs to perform in order to stay in Tampa and go to Garcia if thats what it takes are still valid.

An interesting point, but I don't think the addition of Garcia shows ownership that a long term approach to winning is in place.

Given Gruden's poor output in 3 of the last 4 seasons, he needs to win games. Long term approach is all well and good, but it probably doesn't matter as it pertains to Gruden if he doesn't win this season.

I assume you don't watch Buccaneers football but rather you just look up the stats and draw conclusions from those. Both of Simms' INTs were tipped passes and I wouldn't blame him for those.

There's really no better person to put the blame on than Simms. Two other QBs played behind the same terrible line play and didn't get their passes tipped nearly as much. Now granted, Grads passes might as well have been tipped because they had the same chance of getting to the receiver with his lack of arm strength. Simms slow delivery and lower point of release made it easy for defensive linemen to get their paws on it. Atlanta and Baltimore both made a point of it in their gameplan to bat passes, something that isn't a regular occurrence in the NFL unless you're passing just over the top of the line or a man comes free. They probably saw it when they watched the game tape of the Redskins playoff game. If memory serves correctly, their DTs also rejected Chris a few times. That shows a flaw in Chris's game, not the linemen.


I think Garcia will take the job for a number of reasons. One, he's coming off a better season. Garcia played pretty mistake free ball for the Eagles and made all the throws he had to. Yes, his supporting cast gets some credit for that. But you can only take so much away from a guy who played well. Chris on the other hand, played poorly and never quite kicked that tipped pass habit.

Then he went down for the season and is now coming back from an injury that is unheard of, even in the league where Daunte Culpepper can tear an alphabet soup of CLs.

Garcia is the veteran, who fits Gruden's WCO like a glove while Simms was always molded to a more open, deep passing game. Gruden's offense can be very successful with short and intermediate passes. Simms' batted balls syndrome isn't going to win him any points there.

People seem to be confusing younger with better, which is easy to do in the NFL. Garcia isn't going to lose this competition on age alone. This is the same Gruden who fielded Rich Gannon and Brad Johnson, and was known for being "too rough" on the kid who couldn't pick up his complex playbook not that long ago.

Garcia is the odds on favorite, but I'd still like to see Simms make something of himself. The wrap on him is that he's always had the physical skills, but never played up to them. He's had a flash or two, I just wish he'd be more consistent with them.

Caddy
06-07-2007, 02:39 AM
If you are going to comment on things that we have already said at least read the whole thread. I was aware that it wasn't Gruden's contract year after someone else informed me and I already made a comment which bears a large significance to yours.

dbtb135
06-07-2007, 05:34 PM
If you are going to comment on things that we have already said at least read the whole thread. I was aware that it wasn't Gruden's contract year after someone else informed me and I already made a comment which bears a large significance to yours.

I did read the whole thread. I did not correct you, I agreed with you and said your points were valid, so......

Watchman
06-07-2007, 06:18 PM
Wow, this debate died quickly.


I was reading some info over at Pewter Report and apparently one of their guys interviewed Simms for their upcoming issue. The PR guys were a little concerned that Simms said he is 100% healthy and that he hasn't gotten back into rythm yet. Apparently he messed up his mechanics a little bit.

VY10
06-07-2007, 06:22 PM
Simms will be the starter but I don't particularly like him. I remember at Texas he was one of the best QBs you could have when the pressure wasn't on but it seemed that in big games he always did miserably.

Caddy
06-08-2007, 12:41 AM
At the moment a lot of signs actually point to Garcia being the starter with Chris Simms needing to outperform him in Training Camp. Hopefully he can do that, but if Garcia is playing better football then he should be the one on the field.

etk
06-08-2007, 12:41 PM
At the moment a lot of signs actually point to Garcia being the starter with Chris Simms needing to outperform him in Training Camp. Hopefully he can do that, but if Garcia is playing better football then he should be the one on the field.

What signs? A dream of yours? Pewterreport saying so?

Come off it...

one_of_a_kind24
06-08-2007, 01:27 PM
What signs? A dream of yours? Pewterreport saying so?

Come off it...

Bucs coach Jon Gruden all but anointed free agent pickup Jeff Garcia, left, the Bucs' starting quarterback while addressing an audience of business people and fans during a question and answer session at a Chamber of Commerce breakfast Friday morning at the Belleview Biltmore."There's not a lot of controversy in my eyes right now,'' Gruden said. "If you want to catch up to Jeff Garcia, our young quarterbacks have some work to do. Garcia has done a great job from day one, since he's been here. He understands the position, he's moved offenses wherever he's been, and right now Jeff Garcia has a big lead, to me, on the quarterback position. He brings a lot of juice and enthusiasm to our offensive team. I'm not discounting that there won't be a competition in training camp. I do believe Chris Simms and Bruce Gradkowski can make it interesting, and Luke McCown is also doing some good things. But Jeff Garcia is clearly the leader in the clubhouse right now, and we are excited about that.'' http://blogs.tampabay.com/bucs/2007/06/gruden_wants_ga.html

etk
06-08-2007, 01:46 PM
Wait a minute! Daunte Culpepper just became available. Can Jon resist?

This was posted in the comments section, lol.

dbtb135
06-08-2007, 02:45 PM
Bucs coach Jon Gruden all but anointed free agent pickup Jeff Garcia, left, the Bucs' starting quarterback while addressing an audience of business people and fans during a question and answer session at a Chamber of Commerce breakfast Friday morning at the Belleview Biltmore."There's not a lot of controversy in my eyes right now,'' Gruden said. "If you want to catch up to Jeff Garcia, our young quarterbacks have some work to do. Garcia has done a great job from day one, since he's been here. He understands the position, he's moved offenses wherever he's been, and right now Jeff Garcia has a big lead, to me, on the quarterback position. He brings a lot of juice and enthusiasm to our offensive team. I'm not discounting that there won't be a competition in training camp. I do believe Chris Simms and Bruce Gradkowski can make it interesting, and Luke McCown is also doing some good things. But Jeff Garcia is clearly the leader in the clubhouse right now, and we are excited about that.'' http://blogs.tampabay.com/bucs/2007/06/gruden_wants_ga.html

Not surprising at all, Gruden has always preferred the intelligent vet who may be less naturally gifted than the kid. I like hearing good things about McCown too. He was the backup to Simms last year before he went down for the season. I think he's be a better QB than Grads, though not by a lot. Simms is nice to have in the 2, because if Garcia goes down teams will still have to respect the pass. Simms can be questioned for some things, but no doubt the kid's got a gun.

Watchman
06-08-2007, 03:16 PM
What signs? A dream of yours? Pewterreport saying so?

Come off it...

Gruden pretty much saying it in June, that's a sign.

Watchman
06-08-2007, 03:21 PM
Simms can be questioned for some things, but no doubt the kid's got a gun.

His release is so slow he's really got more of a musket.

dbtb135
06-08-2007, 04:27 PM
His release is so slow he's really got more of a musket.

The deep ball. My point was the deep ball. He's got it regardless of how long it takes him to deliver it. He can hit Galloway in stride. He could hit Edell or Clayton when he got the chance too. Thats the difference between him probably backing up this year and Grads backing up last year. Grads couldn't hit a deep ball if his life depended on it. Last year with Galloway in center field at Dallas, and Clayton before half at Carolina were two of the weakest throws I have ever seen by an NFL QB. Simms can and will, so safeties would back off the LOS instead of stacking the box and daring him to beat them.

Watchman
06-08-2007, 04:36 PM
The deep ball. My point was the deep ball. He's got it regardless of how long it takes him to deliver it. He can hit Galloway in stride. He could hit Edell or Clayton when he got the chance too. Thats the difference between him probably backing up this year and Grads backing up last year. Grads couldn't hit a deep ball if his life depended on it. Last year with Galloway in center field at Dallas, and Clayton before half at Carolina were two of the weakest throws I have ever seen by an NFL QB. Simms can and will, so safeties would back off the LOS instead of stacking the box and daring him to beat them.

Oh he has the arm strength. It is just a shame that the ball takes a full weekend to come out, and because of that 1/2 of his passes are batted back in his face. More passes rejected than I've ever seen from an NFL QB.

Back to the bench.

dbtb135
06-08-2007, 04:40 PM
Oh he has the arm strength. It is just a shame that the ball takes a full weekend to come out, and because of that 1/2 of his passes are batted back in his face. More passes rejected than I've ever seen from an NFL QB.

Back to the bench.

Agreed....

Caddy
06-08-2007, 09:53 PM
Bucs coach Jon Gruden all but anointed free agent pickup Jeff Garcia, left, the Bucs' starting quarterback while addressing an audience of business people and fans during a question and answer session at a Chamber of Commerce breakfast Friday morning at the Belleview Biltmore."There's not a lot of controversy in my eyes right now,'' Gruden said. "If you want to catch up to Jeff Garcia, our young quarterbacks have some work to do. Garcia has done a great job from day one, since he's been here. He understands the position, he's moved offenses wherever he's been, and right now Jeff Garcia has a big lead, to me, on the quarterback position. He brings a lot of juice and enthusiasm to our offensive team. I'm not discounting that there won't be a competition in training camp. I do believe Chris Simms and Bruce Gradkowski can make it interesting, and Luke McCown is also doing some good things. But Jeff Garcia is clearly the leader in the clubhouse right now, and we are excited about that.'' http://blogs.tampabay.com/bucs/2007/06/gruden_wants_ga.html

I hope that answers your question etk or maybe you are just blinded by your Simms homerness.

Merlin
06-08-2007, 11:22 PM
I hope that answers your question etk or maybe you are just blinded by your Simms homerness.Kerching...lols

etk
06-09-2007, 08:25 AM
I hope that answers your question etk or maybe you are just blinded by your Simms homerness.

I find it hard to believe that Gruden would make such bold comments about anyone, really, let alone a recent free-agent acquisition.

I don't really care anymore. I'm just gonna sit back while Gruden sends us into full rebuilding mode. He can't draft and now he can't choose starters either, sayonara. Thanks for 1 ring, now go hit up the golf course. At least I can be confident that Jeff Garcia gives us our best chance at firing Gruden.

SuperKevin
06-09-2007, 11:18 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2898803

Gruden declared Jeff Garcia having a BIG lead over Simms going into preseason

etk
06-09-2007, 01:23 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2898803

Gruden declared Jeff Garcia having a BIG lead over Simms going into preseason

We all know, sigh. No need to rub it in.

one_of_a_kind24
06-09-2007, 01:45 PM
I find it hard to believe that Gruden would make such bold comments about anyone, really, let alone a recent free-agent acquisition.

I don't really care anymore. I'm just gonna sit back while Gruden sends us into full rebuilding mode. He can't draft and now he can't choose starters either, sayonara. Thanks for 1 ring, now go hit up the golf course. At least I can be confident that Jeff Garcia gives us our best chance at firing Gruden.


We have been in rebuilding mode for a while now. Garcia gives us the best chance to win and Simms gives us the best chance at a top 8 pick. I have never seen someone slobber over a awful QB like you are doing. What about Simms makes you think he can be the "franchise" QB for our team?

DuckHunt
06-09-2007, 01:54 PM
Garcia, no doubt

Watchman
06-09-2007, 09:20 PM
I find it hard to believe that Gruden would make such bold comments about anyone, really, let alone a recent free-agent acquisition.

I don't really care anymore. I'm just gonna sit back while Gruden sends us into full rebuilding mode. He can't draft and now he can't choose starters either, sayonara. Thanks for 1 ring, now go hit up the golf course. At least I can be confident that Jeff Garcia gives us our best chance at firing Gruden.

I see, so since it looks like the guy you like isn't going to be the starter it isn't because he isn't the best QB on the team it is because of the coach can't choose the right starting QB.

You really are quickly approaching blind homerism for Simms.

etk
06-10-2007, 07:28 AM
I see, so since it looks like the guy you like isn't going to be the starter it isn't because he isn't the best QB on the team it is because of the coach can't choose the right starting QB.

You really are quickly approaching blind homerism for Simms.

It's really not hard for me to decide who's the best QB on the team. Jeff Garcia was a woeful eyesore in Detroit and Cleveland with a similar lack of talent and playmakers offensively. He goes to Philadelphia where he's surrounded by weapons and one of the best offensive minds in the game and suddenly he's a magical star. Sorry, I don't buy it or give him substantial credit. Once again, Simms proved in 2004 that he has the potential to be an upper-tier quarterback with continued development. I expect that development to occur this season when given a fair chance as an opening starter. There's no reason to believe he can't improve his knowledge and understanding of defenses and our offense over 2 years.

Caddy
06-10-2007, 07:38 AM
It's really not hard for me to decide who's the best QB on the team. Jeff Garcia was a woeful eyesore in Detroit and Cleveland with a similar lack of talent and playmakers offensively. He goes to Philadelphia where he's surrounded by weapons and one of the best offensive minds in the game and suddenly he's a magical star. Sorry, I don't buy it or give him substantial credit. Once again, Simms proved in 2004 that he has the potential to be an upper-tier quarterback with continued development. I expect that development to occur this season when given a fair chance as an opening starter. There's no reason to believe he can't improve his knowledge and understanding of defenses and our offense over 2 years.

I find the bolded statement slightly flawed. Other than Westbrook, the Eagles have little to get excited over, especially their receiving corp which after Brown is relatively pitiful. Although I do agree on your thoughts that Simms deserves another chance to be 'the guy' in Tampa before we give up on him completely.

etk
06-10-2007, 07:48 AM
I find the bolded statement slightly flawed. Other than Westbrook, the Eagles have little to get excited over, especially their receiving corp which after Brown is relatively pitiful. Although I do agree on your thoughts that Simms deserves another chance to be 'the guy' in Tampa before we give up on him completely.

Obviously he wasn't playing with Chad Johnson and Antonio Gates, but the Eagles receivers along with LJ Smith don't get much credit because they spread the ball around a lot in Reid's offense and none of their players are "big names". My point is that Garcia played in an offense where even AJ Feeley had success and I envision us paying the same price (minus a draft pick) that Miami did when they acquired him. Many of Garcia's deep throws either went to open split-ends on the sidelines or wide-open slotbacks down the seam. We don't get the same separation from our receivers (especially in zone), and that is almost a fact. If the aforementioned receivers weren't open, he would simply check down to LJ Smith on a curl or out or throw a swing or look to Westbrook. Pretty simple and friendly offense, even a caveman could do it.

Caddy
06-10-2007, 07:55 AM
Obviously he wasn't playing with Chad Johnson and Antonio Gates, but the Eagles receivers along with LJ Smith don't get much credit because they spread the ball around a lot in Reid's offense and none of their players are "big names". My point is that Garcia played in an offense where even AJ Feeley had success and I envision us paying the same price (minus a draft pick) that Miami did when they acquired him. Many of Garcia's deep throws either went to open split-ends on the sidelines or wide-open slotbacks down the seam. We don't get the same separation from our receivers (especially in zone), and that is almost a fact. If the aforementioned receivers weren't open, he would simply check down to LJ Smith on a curl or out or throw a swing or look to Westbrook. Pretty simple and friendly offense, even a caveman could do it.

There is no denying that Garcia has a less than spectacular deep ball, something ironically Simms has the upper hand on. But ultimately he has that experience, knowledge and accuracy that Gruden likes which will most likely lead to him being appointed starter.

It might not be ideal for the future of the franchise, but there is a very good chance it is exactly what occurs.

etk
06-10-2007, 07:59 AM
But ultimately he has that experience, knowledge and accuracy that Gruden likes which will most likely lead to him being appointed starter.



Ugh, all Gruden cares about is experience, knowledge and age. I probably should've seen this coming the whole time. On a positive note, at least Simms can come in and be the saviour!

Merlin
06-10-2007, 08:51 AM
Ugh, all Gruden cares about is experience, knowledge and age. I probably should've seen this coming the whole time. On a positive note, at least Simms can come in and be the saviour!Coming from someone with a Kyle Wright sig, I can't help thinking Gruden has made the right choice. ;- )

Help me out here people, but when Gruden ran the offense in Oakland, did Gannon launch deep passes all the time? as I remember, it was a typical west coast type of attack, hopefully with Garcia at the helm we may see something similar?

etk
06-10-2007, 11:55 AM
Coming from someone with a Kyle Wright sig, I can't help thinking Gruden has made the right choice. ;- )



Fair enough, Kyle Wright sucks but the sig is for superstition. He needs all the support he can get as Kirby Freeman isn't much of an upgrade.

dbtb135
06-10-2007, 04:38 PM
Ugh, all Gruden cares about is experience, knowledge and age.

Which is why he started Gradkowski, an inexperienced rookie, over vet Tim Rattay last year?

etk
06-10-2007, 06:33 PM
Which is why he started Gradkowski, an inexperienced rookie, over vet Tim Rattay last year?

When was Rattay acquired?

That's what I thought...

ks_perfection
06-10-2007, 06:57 PM
Gruden started the rookie because the season was pretty much over and there wasn't anything to gain by playing Rattay. Whereas with Grad he might turn out to be a potential good starter for the future. If Gruden didn't start Gradkowski we might never know how he'd do.

etk
06-10-2007, 06:58 PM
Gruden started the rookie because the season was pretty much over and there wasn't anything to gain by playing Rattay. Whereas with Grad he might turn out to be a potential good starter for the future. If Gruden didn't start Gradkowski we might never know how he'd do.

Grads practiced with us through training camp and had a better understanding of the offense. Rattay wasn't a Buc until the trade deadline, it's as simple as that.

dbtb135
06-10-2007, 07:40 PM
When was Rattay acquired?

That's what I thought...

A year before Grads....

Age?
Experience?

dbtb135
06-10-2007, 07:43 PM
Grads practiced with us through training camp and had a better understanding of the offense. Rattay wasn't a Buc until the trade deadline, it's as simple as that.

Rattay was acquired in the 05 season, Grads wasn't drafted until 06. Rattay was in camp in 06, just like Grads.

Caddy
06-10-2007, 07:53 PM
lRattay was acquired in the 05 season, Grads wasn't drafted until 06. Rattay was in camp in 06, just like Grads.

lol at etk being burned twice in one thread. The actual fact is like dbtb said, Rattay had more experience in Gruden's offense however he still opted to side with Gradkowski over Rattay. It certainly would have been interesting if McCown had of been healthy at the time Simms went down.

dbtb135
06-10-2007, 10:46 PM
l

lol at etk being burned twice in one thread. The actual fact is like dbtb said, Rattay had more experience in Gruden's offense however he still opted to side with Gradkowski over Rattay. It certainly would have been interesting if McCown had of been healthy at the time Simms went down.

That's a very underrated point. People seem to forget about McCown because he was injured so early in the process, and was a footnote when he came back. I think McCown vs. Grads in camp should be an interesting competition because you know we won't keep 4 QBs.

etk
06-10-2007, 10:51 PM
Grads practiced with us through training camp and had a better understanding of the offense. Rattay wasn't a Buc until the trade deadline, it's as simple as that.

^Everything I said there was true, somehow.

It seems like a minute ago when we traded for Rattay after Griese's injury. I guess time flies when you're losing...

At least I reminded myself that we've had early season-ending injuries to our starting QB for two years in a row. In that case, go Jeff go!

etk
06-10-2007, 10:53 PM
That's a very underrated point. People seem to forget about McCown because he was injured so early in the process, and was a footnote when he came back. I think McCown vs. Grads in camp should be an interesting competition because you know we won't keep 4 QBs.

I have forgotten about him...it's up to him to prove himself but his mobility will always give him a shot with Gruden, sigh.

dbtb135
06-10-2007, 11:13 PM
^Everything I said there was true, somehow.

Yeah, except you implied Rattay wasn't in camp, and this is from the point I made about you saying "Ugh, all Gruden cares about is experience, knowledge and age." Aside from that....

Watchman
06-11-2007, 02:59 AM
^Everything I said there was true, somehow.




I think if you wish hard enough Simms will be the starting QB this year. Somehow.

etk
06-11-2007, 01:26 PM
I think if you wish hard enough Simms will be the starting QB this year. Somehow.

Kyle Wright has a better chance of throwing 25 TD passes.

etk
06-11-2007, 01:26 PM
Hmm...interesting. This poll was at 18-16 favouring Simms and now Garcia suddenly raked in 5 votes in a row.

Watchman
06-11-2007, 05:53 PM
Chalk it up to Gruden's comments and the beating the pro-Simms group took in this thread.

dbtb135
06-11-2007, 06:36 PM
Hmm...interesting. This poll was at 18-16 favouring Simms and now Garcia suddenly raked in 5 votes in a row.

As a matter of fact, it was 18-10 Simms before I voted.

-black
06-11-2007, 07:33 PM
I cant believe Garcia has already won the job

I want Brohm next year

etk
06-11-2007, 10:57 PM
I cant believe Garcia has already won the job

I want Brohm next year

Yeah, me too, but I want Simms to go to the AFC so I'm not constantly reminded of how ******** Jon Gruden was.

Chalk it up to Gruden's comments and the beating the pro-Simms group took in this thread.

Huh?

Watchman
06-11-2007, 11:37 PM
Yeah, me too, but I want Simms to go to the AFC so I'm not constantly reminded of how ******** Jon Gruden was.



Huh?

See this is what I don't get. Why is it Gruden's fault?

Caddy
06-11-2007, 11:40 PM
I want Simms to start too, but ultimately, I think that Garcia will get the nod at QB. He will obviously have to win the job in training camp and if he can continue his form from last season then he will probably get the job. I hope Simms can beat him, but I am very skeptical about the chances of that happening.

Yep, I picked it back then :)

Beans
06-12-2007, 07:30 AM
Jus' for the record, Garcia was never declared the starter. Just the frontrunner.

There's still hope!

Caddy
06-12-2007, 08:24 AM
Jus' for the record, Garcia was never declared the starter. Just the frontrunner.

There's still hope!

Haha another Simms homer, although I do share your optimism.

etk
06-12-2007, 09:20 AM
See this is what I don't get. Why is it Gruden's fault?

Did he not just say Garcia has a big lead on the job? That's all I need to hear...

Watchman
06-12-2007, 10:13 AM
Did he not just say Garcia has a big lead on the job? That's all I need to hear...

But why is Simms blameless in your eyes, that's what I'm missing. Aren't you a little pissed at Simms for not being the clear cut starter after +4 years with the team?

etk
06-12-2007, 01:10 PM
But why is Simms blameless in your eyes, that's what I'm missing. Aren't you a little pissed at Simms for not being the clear cut starter after +4 years with the team?

I'm pissed at Simms for 2 bad games in 06 and an unfortunate spleen injury. That's it.

Watchman
06-12-2007, 01:27 PM
I'm pissed at Simms for 2 bad games in 06 and an unfortunate spleen injury. That's it.

Come on now, you can't blame the guy for his spleen, that's not right. When Simms was drafted I was optimistic that he would be the QB of the future, and even though his play hasn't always been horrific, I've been disappointed that he didn't ever completely solidify himself as the starting QB. I was shocked with how badly he played last year before the injury, and that just compounded my disappointment because he had been the #1 guy all offseason and through training camp.

I've always hoped that Simms can prove me wrong, he just hasn't been able to.

-black
06-12-2007, 02:05 PM
we need to look for the 08 draft for a QB. My optimisim is basically gone when Gruden had all but declared Garcia the starter.....which translates to Simms will never be the guy. He will be 28 next year right? we need a franchise QB if Simms isnt going to be it.

Brian Brohm........

**sighs**

etk
06-12-2007, 03:27 PM
we need to look for the 08 draft for a QB. My optimisim is basically gone when Gruden had all but declared Garcia the starter.....which translates to Simms will never be the guy. He will be 28 next year right? we need a franchise QB if Simms isnt going to be it.

Brian Brohm........

**sighs**

Haha, yeah. I'm not the type to give up hope too quickly but I really can't see Gruden changing his mind over Garcia. Lucky for us, there are QBs in all ranges of the draft next year based on early prognosis...

Early 1st: Brohm
Mid 1st: Woodson, Brennan
Late 1st-Round 2: Booty, Henne
Dark Horses: *Kyle Wright*, Dennis Dixon, Taylor Bennett (Jr.), Sam Keller, Matt Flynn
Terrible FSU Underclassmen ;): 'Saviour' Lee, Drew Weatherford

It's gonna be a fun year watching college 'ball and paying extra attention to scouting QBs.

Caddy
06-13-2007, 03:36 AM
Sure wouldn't mind Brohm in a Buccaneers jersey but unless he has a poor season, I don't know if we will be able to grab him. But I can dream. :D

Watchman
06-13-2007, 11:36 AM
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/myfox/pages/Sports/Detail?contentId=3471458&version=5&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=6.3.1


Looks like Simms is now behind Gradkowski on the depth chart. I think all this stuff is premature given that it is only June.

one_of_a_kind24
06-13-2007, 02:55 PM
We have been in rebuilding mode for a while now. Garcia gives us the best chance to win and Simms gives us the best chance at a top 8 pick. I have never seen someone slobber over a awful QB like you are doing. What about Simms makes you think he can be the "franchise" QB for our team?

????? Here is a good article about Garcia and the Bucs:


Choosing Garcia makes perfect sense for Bucs (http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10222340)

So now Jeff Garcia is the front-runner for the job as starting quarterback for the Tampa Bay Bucs. OK, fine. But what's the big deal?

The minute the Bucs signed the guy, I figured Garcia was the front-runner. I think a lot of people did.

First of all, the team invested $5 million in him this season, and you don't spend that kind of money on a backup. Second, he's coming off a playoff season and is a perfect fit for coach Jon Gruden's offense. Third, and this is where you should pay attention, he may be Rich Gannon all over again.

Gannon was Gruden's reclamation project in Oakland. He acquired him when Gannon was a 33-year-old backup few wanted and turned him into one of the most efficient and successful quarterbacks in Raiders history.

Gannon could run. He could improvise. He knew how to make plays outside the pocket. He knew how to lead.

He was accurate. He was tough. He was resilient. He was smart. And he was a veteran who would flourish in the right offense.

Maybe it's me, but that sure sounds like a description of Jeff Garcia.

He was supposed to be washed up in Detroit after the Lions floundered in 2005, but people forgot that it wasn't Garcia who screwed up the Lions; it was the Lions who screwed up Garcia. The guy could still play, and he proved it once he left Detroit and landed in Philadelphia -- taking over when Donovan McNabb suffered a season-ending knee injury last year.

All Garcia did was win six of eight starts, take the Eagles to their fifth division title in six years and ignite a quarterback debate that wouldn't quit until Garcia left town.

"The reason Jeff considered returning to Philadelphia was that it was a system he felt fit him well," Garcia's agent Steve Baker said. "And that's the same reason he signed with Tampa Bay. It's a system where he can thrive."

Until this week Tampa fans were wondering: Garcia or Chris Simms? Please, people. The Bucs never were sold on Simms, and the proof is the signing of Garcia and the trade for Jake Plummer.

It doesn't matter that Plummer won't play. What matters is that Tampa Bay felt compelled to acquire him. Honestly, do you think the Bucs would have made that move that if they were sold on Simms? I think you know the answer.

"Jeff Garcia is smart. He's competitive. And he's mobile," an AFC player personnel director said. "I think Gruden feels he needs to win this year, and he isn't confident that Chris Simms is the guy who can do that for him. So he goes out and gets Garcia and hopes he can get one or two years out of him before turning it over to the young guy (Bruce Gradkowski)."

Which brings us back to Garcia and Gannon. The Raiders acquired Gannon in 1999 after he split snaps with Elvis Grbac in Kansas City in 1998. But Grbac was the starter; Gannon wasn't. He played only because Grbac was hurt the first week of the season.

Sound familiar?

Anyway, Gruden saw something in Gannon he liked. So he signed him as an unrestricted free agent, started him and watched Gannon develop into a Pro Bowl quarterback and league MVP.

OK, so Gannon was younger when Gruden started coaching him. He was 33. Garcia is 37. But Garcia's been in the league eight years and hasn't played a complete season since 2002, which means he hasn't absorbed the punishment inflicted on starting quarterbacks his age.

"And there's one other thing," a source close to Tampa Bay said. "Rich Gannon didn't arrive in Oakland as a three-time Pro Bowler, which means Garcia could be more than Rich Gannon all over again."

I don't know about that. What I do know is that the key with Garcia is that he can run, which means he can create outside the pocket. That was the key with Gannon, too. He ran for 529 yards and scored four rushing touchdowns in 2000, the same season Garcia ran for 414 yards and four scores in San Francisco.

If you watched Garcia last season you saw someone who made big plays in critical situations. It didn't hurt that he was an accurate passer, either. While his completion percentage (61.7) wasn't overwhelming, he avoided fatal mistakes -- throwing 10 TDs and only two interceptions.

And that, folks, is another reason why Gruden thinks he can help Tampa Bay.

"If I had to compare the two," said a league GM, "I'd say Gannon was more accurate. Garcia is a little bit of a slinger, sort of like Brett Favre, while Gannon might be closer to, say, Trent Green."

Except Gannon was mobile and so is Garcia. The Bucs don't have a great offensive line, so you need someone who can escape the pocket. Plus, Gruden likes quarterbacks who can move, and Garcia is adept at making big throws after dodging the first wave of pass rushers.

People want to knock him because he was a disappointment in Cleveland and a disaster in Detroit, but look at those clubs: They stunk. Neither had an offensive line that could protect a quarterback, and Garcia -- and others -- suffered for it.

Once he landed in Philadelphia, however, Garcia returned to normal. He became the leader he was in San Francisco, lifting an offense that suited him and a team that needed him into the playoffs.

That is why Tampa Bay wanted him, and that is why the Bucs will start him.

Now let's break down the attributes and see who is better.

GARCIA vs SIMMS

Mobility:
Garcia > Simms

Accuracy:
Garcia > Simms

Arm Strength:
Simms > Garcia

Knowledge of the WCO:
Garcia > Simms

Fire:
Garcia > Simms

Fit in WCO:
Garcia > Simms

Experience:
Garcia > Simms

Reading defenses:
Garcia > Simms

Who has “it”:
Garcia > Simms

Youth:
Simms > Garcia

Quick release:
Garcia > Simms

Ability to make things happen:
Garcia > Simms

Accuracy on the run:
Garcia > Simms

etk
06-19-2007, 11:10 PM
http://www.nfl.com/teams/story/TB/10231042

Nothing really interesting in this article but it's on the front page of nfl.com.

Caddy
06-20-2007, 02:19 AM
I liked this quote:

"I'm accused of not liking young players. I just like good quarterbacks like everybody else in the league," Gruden said after the opening practice of the Buccaneers' three-day mandatory minicamp.

I think it is a valid point actually.

Merlin
06-20-2007, 05:18 AM
I liked this quote:

"I'm accused of not liking young players. I just like good quarterbacks like everybody else in the league," Gruden said after the opening practice of the Buccaneers' three-day mandatory minicamp.

I think it is a valid point actually.I'm glad he said this, it makes the point I was talking about in the "Simms is 3rd" thread.

Watchman
06-20-2007, 05:03 PM
Good quote from Garcia:

Quarterback Jeff Garcia said he wouldn't mind if Plummer decided to report to camp.

"That's fine. If he wants to come, he can come and sit on the bench, too,'' Garcia said. ""So whatever he wants to do. That's his decision.''

http://blogs.tampabay.com/bucs/2007/06/rice_sears_held.html

etk
06-20-2007, 08:37 PM
Good quote from Garcia:

Quarterback Jeff Garcia said he wouldn't mind if Plummer decided to report to camp.

"That's fine. If he wants to come, he can come and sit on the bench, too,'' Garcia said. ""So whatever he wants to do. That's his decision.''

http://blogs.tampabay.com/bucs/2007/06/rice_sears_held.html

The "too" was so unnecessary....

Merlin
06-21-2007, 03:45 AM
The "too" was so unnecessary....

I like that attitude in a QB,.......especially from one on the Bucs.

Watchman
06-21-2007, 11:34 AM
The "too" was so unnecessary....

It was pretty damn funny.

etk
06-21-2007, 12:21 PM
Q 15

PLAYBOY: Former 49er and current Cleveland Browns quarterback Jeff Garcia, with whom you played for years, has denied media rumors that he's ***. What do you think?

Terrell Owens: Like my boy tells me: If it looks like a rat and smells like a rat, by golly, it is a rat.

THIS is funny

Watchman
06-21-2007, 01:26 PM
THIS is funny

I agree, that was a good quote.

tylerb929
06-21-2007, 01:35 PM
THIS is funny

I don't know if he's *** or not.... but his wife is fvcking hot!
Carmella DeCesare
http://www.abstracthiphop.com/hip-hop-honeys/carmella_decesare_beach_yellow_bikini.jpg

Phrost
06-21-2007, 05:03 PM
Haha, yeah. I'm not the type to give up hope too quickly but I really can't see Gruden changing his mind over Garcia. Lucky for us, there are QBs in all ranges of the draft next year based on early prognosis...

Early 1st: Brohm
Mid 1st: Woodson, Brennan
Late 1st-Round 2: Booty, Henne
Dark Horses: *Kyle Wright*, Dennis Dixon, Taylor Bennett (Jr.), Sam Keller, Matt Flynn
Terrible FSU Underclassmen ;): 'Saviour' Lee, Drew Weatherford

It's gonna be a fun year watching college 'ball and paying extra attention to scouting QBs.

I love that diagram. Brennan could be a god in this offense.

Fresh
06-21-2007, 06:20 PM
Sadly, Garcia will, wait im too late. Oh well

Fresh
06-21-2007, 06:21 PM
No, to Brennan, we don't play New Mexico St every game. Colt would have to sit like Simms did for 4 years just to understand our system, to be halfway decent. I want Mr. Andre Woodson, he got wheels and a pretty good arm.Andre Woodson is a Vince Young type QB

Phrost
06-21-2007, 06:38 PM
No, to Brennan, we don't play New Mexico St every game. Colt would have to sit like Simms did for 4 years just to understand our system, to be halfway decent. I want Mr. Andre Woodson, he got wheels and a pretty good arm.Andre Woodson is a Vince Young type QB

I'd expect Gruden to be gone if we are to get Woodson or Brohm.

etk
06-21-2007, 09:38 PM
I love that diagram. Brennan could be a god in this offense.

I left out Erik Ainge, he also has 1-2 round potential.

Phrost
06-21-2007, 09:40 PM
That is true.

Chucky
06-21-2007, 11:33 PM
I'd expect Gruden to be gone if we are to get Woodson or Brohm.

I could see woodsen falling as far as the second round to be completely honest with you, even the third, it all depends on how his senior season go's. The season for him is more important than for most QB's