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View Full Version : 4-3 vs. 3-4


Paul
11-22-2006, 01:15 AM
If you were running a team which defense scheme would you employ. And Why?

I would choose 3-4 for the extra speed you have on the field, the unpredictably, and the versatility.

InvisiblePinkUnicorn
11-22-2006, 01:21 AM
I really like the 4-3 over set up, but that's not really an every play lineup. It gives the oppurtunity to put many great pass rushers on teh field as your Sam OLB should be a great pass rusher, and with 2 premier D Ends and atleast one great D tackle to free everyone else up, this system can dominate. Then have two MLB types at MLB and WLB and you're golden.

bearsfan_51
11-22-2006, 01:24 AM
4-3 because Bill Parcells has a FUP.

San Diego Chicken
11-22-2006, 01:24 AM
I like the 3-4, but not every team can run it because you need the right personel (also the reason that I think it's not as successful in college).

Moses
11-22-2006, 01:53 AM
Really depends on what personnel I have but probably the 3-4 if I could pick any players.

Caddy
11-22-2006, 03:13 AM
Personally, 4-3

Ravens1991
11-22-2006, 08:12 AM
I would like a 4-3 with 2 gigantic run stuffers in the middle and 2 good non-stop pass rushers.

Staubach12
11-22-2006, 08:30 AM
I've always liked the 3-4 because it allows you to be a bit more agressive. It's easier to confuse an offensive line, and sometimes it will force a back to stay and block in passing situations. When it's a run, more LBs gives you more speed to pursue.

therock6000
11-22-2006, 08:32 AM
i prefer the 3-4...but like moses said, it depends on the group of players you have..

Smooth Criminal
11-22-2006, 08:52 AM
I'd definately take the 3-4. You can create an awesome pass rush with the 4 linebackers and it is alot easier to stop the run up the middle with the two backers and a NT than with the two DTs and the one MLB.

11-22-2006, 09:23 AM
3-4 for sure. Just look at the success it is having now...Peyton Manning himself cannot figure it out. Also, in 34 you are more athletic, and in the current NFL, that is what is most important.

draftguru151
11-22-2006, 09:36 AM
Hybrid. 8)

bigbluedefense
11-22-2006, 09:52 AM
Im a 3-4 guy. Always have been. Its better against the run, and its more confusing and versatile. You have more variety of plays, more blitz packages, mroe athletecism, and more confusion.

You obviously need the right personnell of course, but if Im building a defense from scratch, I build a 3-4 defense.

If I were to build a 4-3 defense, it would be built like the 2000 Ravens/Current Jaguars. I would want 2 massive DTs who devour the run, and a quick speedy MIKE who can make tackles sideline to sideline and defend the pass up the middle. Have a solid pass rusher DE, preferabley 2 of course, and quick speedy WILL who can also rush the passer.

If I were to give an example of 4-3 personnell that would be realistic under the salary cap, it would be this

DE - Osi Umenyiora :D
NT - Albert Haynesworth
UT - Marcus Stroud
DE - Reggie Hayward

WILL - Adalius Thomas
MIKE - Mike Peterson
SAM - insert blue collar guy

That would be a realistic and affordable front 7 in a 4-3, and thats the style I would build. I would want 2 run devouring DTs, 2 DEs who can rush the passer well plus stuff the run well, a pass rushing WILL who can play in space, and a pass coverage MIKE.

draftguru151
11-22-2006, 10:00 AM
BBD you sure you don't want some smaller DL and some fast LBs so you can run a cover 2?

bigbluedefense
11-22-2006, 10:01 AM
BBD you sure you don't want some smaller DL and some fast LBs so you can run a cover 2?

:lol:

bigbluedefense
11-22-2006, 10:11 AM
Thanks draftguru, you just gave me the perfect setup to rip into the Cover 2.

Cover 2 S UCKS

Defenses weren't meant to be wimpy. Those small quickies could get owned by the big overpowering olinemen I would build my offense around. Speed kills. Kills your run defense that is. Ive said it before and I'll say it again, any style defense who's major weakness is against the power run, and is built to stop the pass is not a good base defense. You cannot be an elite defense in this league either if you cannot play man coverage. And the small secondaries of the Cover 2 cannot hold up in their man assignments.

Cover 2 can't defend the TE entirely well either. And its too basic of a scheme. Come December when teams look at a year of tape and analyze your weaknesses, the Cover 2 scheme has no answer. Its too basic of a scheme, and you won't confuse any qbs with it.

Cover 2 can work, I won't deny that. But its just not my cup of tea. Theres too many inherit flaws in the philosophy. I grew up playing smashmouth football, and the Cover 2's philosophies go against most of the principles I grew up playing and believing in.

doingthisinsteadofwork
11-22-2006, 11:32 AM
Thanks draftguru, you just gave me the perfect setup to rip into the Cover 2.

Cover 2 S UCKS

Defenses weren't meant to be wimpy. Those small quickies could get owned by the big overpowering olinemen I would build my offense around. Speed kills. Kills your run defense that is. Ive said it before and I'll say it again, any style defense who's major weakness is against the power run, and is built to stop the pass is not a good base defense. You cannot be an elite defense in this league either if you cannot play man coverage. And the small secondaries of the Cover 2 cannot hold up in their man assignments.

Cover 2 can't defend the TE entirely well either. And its too basic of a scheme. Come December when teams look at a year of tape and analyze your weaknesses, the Cover 2 scheme has no answer. Its too basic of a scheme, and you won't confuse any qbs with it.

Cover 2 can work, I won't deny that. But its just not my cup of tea. Theres too many inherit flaws in the philosophy. I grew up playing smashmouth football, and the Cover 2's philosophies go against most of the principles I grew up playing and believing in.yah thats what oakland though in the superbowl about Tampa. :roll:
of course i blame gruden,sims,and that idiot barrett robins.

Mr. Stiller
11-22-2006, 11:42 AM
by choice?

3-4

only fault is with not many colleges running it, and the ones that do don't have great players consistantly (Maryland with Merriman, Brooks/Parham from Virginia...)

Which leads to alot of subpar players sometimes and busts (See Jackson, Alonzo)

It's hard to project who is a clear cut LB and who could pull it off the best.


Which is why the 3-4 leads to fewer busts, because it's a system 98% of colleges use.

bigbluedefense
11-22-2006, 11:49 AM
Thanks draftguru, you just gave me the perfect setup to rip into the Cover 2.

Cover 2 S UCKS

Defenses weren't meant to be wimpy. Those small quickies could get owned by the big overpowering olinemen I would build my offense around. Speed kills. Kills your run defense that is. Ive said it before and I'll say it again, any style defense who's major weakness is against the power run, and is built to stop the pass is not a good base defense. You cannot be an elite defense in this league either if you cannot play man coverage. And the small secondaries of the Cover 2 cannot hold up in their man assignments.

Cover 2 can't defend the TE entirely well either. And its too basic of a scheme. Come December when teams look at a year of tape and analyze your weaknesses, the Cover 2 scheme has no answer. Its too basic of a scheme, and you won't confuse any qbs with it.

Cover 2 can work, I won't deny that. But its just not my cup of tea. Theres too many inherit flaws in the philosophy. I grew up playing smashmouth football, and the Cover 2's philosophies go against most of the principles I grew up playing and believing in.yah thats what oakland though in the superbowl about Tampa. :roll:
of course i blame gruden,sims,and that idiot barrett robins.

You guys lost that SB because Tampa knew every play you were running. Lynch even said so. That was Gruden's playbook. Gruden taught Tampa's D everything they needed to know and the Bucs knew what the play was before the hike. It was like shooting fish in a bucket, Oakland had no chance.

Vince Lombardi
11-22-2006, 12:04 PM
I would like a 4-3 with 2 gigantic run stuffers in the middle and 2 good non-stop pass rushers.

Same here. I like size on the d-line so they can just manhandle people in the trenches.

Moses
11-22-2006, 01:35 PM
Cover 2 can work amazingly against any style of football if you have the right personnel.

Boston
11-22-2006, 01:42 PM
Cover 2 can work amazingly against any style of football if you have the right personnel.

So can any scheme.

PalmerToCJ
11-22-2006, 02:43 PM
3-4... IMO it's easier to find a playmaking LB than a second solid DT. Plus I like the additional speed and different ways of rushing the passer you can use.

It's a shame we had to promote LeBeau to HC and give him the boot after sucking :lol:

Moses
11-22-2006, 02:46 PM
Cover 2 can work amazingly against any style of football if you have the right personnel.

So can any scheme.

True, I'm just saying that Cover 2 isn't as bad as some people here seem to think.

Ravens1991
11-22-2006, 03:02 PM
In a 3-4 could 3 big 340+ d-lineman work well?

InvisiblePinkUnicorn
11-22-2006, 03:11 PM
In a 3-4 could 3 big 340+ d-lineman work well?

Unlikely, DEs would probably be way to unathletic to help against outside runs so it'd be that sides OLB and maybe ILB trying to stop a FB, TE and maybe a pulling guard.

InvisiblePinkUnicorn
11-22-2006, 03:16 PM
As for the 4-3 over i was invisioning it'd be something like this

LE - Will Smith
NT - Shaun Rogers
UT - Tommie Harris
RE - Alex Brown
SLB - DeMarcus Ware (I think he is good enough in coverage to be a fit here)

MLB - Antonio Pierce
WLB - Mike Peterson

IMO that's somewhat reasonable with a cap and gives everything i'd want, a SLB who's a beast on the blitz and can dominate the pass and run.
A NT who can eat blocks but also make plays with quickness.
A UT who is constantly in the backfield.
A LE who can throw RTs around with speed and power.
A RE who is just sick off the edge with speed.
And then two MLB types cleaning up everything the front 5 doesn't take out.

duckseason
11-22-2006, 03:19 PM
Must've been CGF?

Ravens1991
11-22-2006, 04:20 PM
This how I like my 4-3s

DT-1 big 350+ DT.
DT-A big guy in the 300-315 range who could play DE
DE-A Trevor Pryce like player who can get 7+ sacks and can play DE in a 4-3 and a 3-4 along w/ a 4-3 DT.
DE-A good speed rusher who could also drop back in coverage
SLB- A beast that is big and can blitz and cover and so on like a OLB
MLB- A team leader, a side line to side line ball hawk, but can also cover the TE in case the SLB blitzes
WLB- A player that will usually cover a RB out of the backfield


DE-Trevor Pryce
DT-Shaun Rogers
DT-Richard Seymour
DE-Terrell Suggs/Demarcus Ware and so on
SLB-Adalius Thomas
MLB-Brian Urlacher
WLB-Mike Peterson

with this we could possibly go to a 3-4 looking like this

DE-Trevor Pryce
DT-Shaun Rogers
DE-Richard Seymour
OLB-T-sizzle/Demarcus Ware and so on
MLB-Brian Urlacher
MLB-Mike Peterson
OLB-Adalius Thomas


I shall admit I am a little biased w/ the Ravens players since I dont get to key in on players abilities and weaknesses as I can w/ the Ravens.
WLB-

The Unseen
11-22-2006, 04:40 PM
Whichever works best.

Paul
11-22-2006, 04:53 PM
This how I like my 4-3s

DT-1 big 350+ DT.


:shock: . Is there guy the league right now who weighs that much?

draftguru151
11-22-2006, 04:58 PM
This how I like my 4-3s

DT-1 big 350+ DT.


:shock: . Is there guy the league right now who weighs that much?

There are a few.

The Legend
11-22-2006, 05:03 PM
i like 4-3 and have to fast outside ends two big uglys in the middle and have a superstar in the middle

Merch
11-22-2006, 05:08 PM
This how I like my 4-3s

DT-1 big 350+ DT.


:shock: . Is there guy the league right now who weighs that much?

Grady Jackson is one

Ravens1991
11-22-2006, 05:16 PM
I mean a big run stuffer, Marcus Stroud would be fine but he is like 325ish I believe.

VoteLynnSwan
11-22-2006, 05:26 PM
Must've been CGF?

yea it was...


but i hate the 3-4...

my ultimate 4-3 lineup that actually would fit under the cap...

DE Alex Brown
DT Tommie Harris
DT Ian Scott
DE Adewale Ogunleye

WLB Lance Briggs
MLB Brian Urlacher
SLB Hunter Hillenmeyer

CB Nathan Vasher
CB Peanut Tillman

SS Mike Brown
FS Danieal Manning


In all honesty however, the only ones i would change would be Hunter, possibly manning (not in 2 years though) and Tillman.

The Legend
11-22-2006, 05:29 PM
Shaun Rogers was 357 now they say hes 347

Ted Washington is 365

Dan Wilkinson was 353 now is 340

i think the biggest man in the nfl is Leonard Davis i belive he is like 370 but he is a OT

draftguru151
11-22-2006, 05:31 PM
Must've been CGF?

yea it was...


but i hate the 3-4...

my ultimate 4-3 lineup that actually would fit under the cap...

DE Alex Brown
DT Tommie Harris
DT Ian Scott
DE Adewale Ogunleye

WLB Lance Briggs
MLB Brian Urlacher
SLB Hunter Hillenmeyer

CB Nathan Vasher
CB Peanut Tillman

SS Mike Brown
FS Danieal Manning


In all honesty however, the only ones i would change would be Hunter, possibly manning (not in 2 years though) and Tillman.

Ronnie Brown>your defense. :wink:

Paul
11-22-2006, 05:37 PM
Shaun Rogers was 357 now they say hes 347

Ted Washington is 365

Dan Wilkinson was 353 now is 340

i think the biggest man in the nfl is Leonard Davis i belive he is like 370 but he is a OT

350+ seems abit much even for a NT. I would want my guy to be around 315-325, depending on his height.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-22-2006, 05:54 PM
I like me some 4-3. In a 3-4, your NT needs to be ON if you're gonna have ANY success stopping the run. In a 4-3, more people fit the 4-3 NT mold than do the 3-4. Plus, the pass rush from the DL isn't as good in a 3-4. Sure, you can blitz LBs, but it's not likeyou can bring 2 LBs every timme most likely. And I dunno but it seems like 4-3 defenses are better against the pass for some reason. If you look at all the 4-3 Ds, more of them seem to be near the top in pass D. My dream 4-3:

LE-Peppers
DT-Henderson
DT-Harris
RE-Jason Taylor
WLB-Adalius Thomas? (i dunno, im blanking on guys for some reason)
MLB-Urlacher
SLB-DJ Williams(homer vote, but again, hes good, and im blanking on others)

That could fit under the cap, too.

if the rest of the team was a bunch of scrubs, anyway.

draftguru151
11-22-2006, 06:00 PM
WLB- Julian Peterson or Keith Bulluck.

The Legend
11-22-2006, 06:06 PM
In a 3-4 could 3 big 340+ d-lineman work well?

i dont think so Casey Hampton Jamal Williams are not even that big

your say like Shaun Rodgers & Ted Wash & grady Jackson

THATS TO BIG I THINK

Moses
11-22-2006, 06:10 PM
Dream Defence:

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

LOLB: DeMarcus Ware
LILB: Brian Urlacher
RILB: Keith Bulluck
ROLB: Shawne Merriman

LCB: Champ Bailey
RCB: Rashean Mathis
FS: Ed Reed
SS: Sean Taylor

The Legend
11-22-2006, 06:11 PM
my 3-4 is this

LE - Darnell Dockett (290) | NT - Shaun Rodgers (350) | RE - Tommie Harris (290)

The Legend
11-22-2006, 06:12 PM
Dream Defence:

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

LOLB: DeMarcus Ware
LILB: Brian Urlacher
RILB: Keith Bulluck
ROLB: Shawne Merriman

LCB: Champ Bailey
RCB: Rashean Mathis
FS: Ed Reed
SS: Sean Taylor

i thinks hes better for a OLB in 3-4

The Unseen
11-22-2006, 06:13 PM
Dream Defence:

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

LOLB: DeMarcus Ware
LILB: Brian Urlacher
RILB: Keith Bulluck
ROLB: Shawne Merriman

LCB: Champ Bailey
RCB: Rashean Mathis
FS: Ed Reed
SS: Sean Taylor

What the crap is a defence? The de-transliteration of the stadium signs?

11-22-2006, 06:13 PM
I would go 3-4 because more teams run the 4-3, so 3-4 prospects would be easier to find later in the draft, also teams that run the 3-4 have had a lot of sucess from what I've seen.

Why is there no Cover 2 option? The two best teams in the NFL run it.

Paul
11-22-2006, 06:16 PM
I would go 3-4 because more teams run the 4-3, so 3-4 prospects would be easier to find later in the draft, also teams that run the 3-4 have had a lot of sucess from what I've seen.

Why is there no Cover 2 option? The two best teams in the NFL run it.

The Cowboys and Chargers both run 3-4 silly.

Moses
11-22-2006, 06:16 PM
Dream Defence:

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

LOLB: DeMarcus Ware
LILB: Brian Urlacher
RILB: Keith Bulluck
ROLB: Shawne Merriman

LCB: Champ Bailey
RCB: Rashean Mathis
FS: Ed Reed
SS: Sean Taylor

What the crap is a defence? The de-transliteration of the stadium signs?

It's the way everybody except Americans spells "defense".

Moses
11-22-2006, 06:17 PM
I would go 3-4 because more teams run the 4-3, so 3-4 prospects would be easier to find later in the draft, also teams that run the 3-4 have had a lot of sucess from what I've seen.

Why is there no Cover 2 option? The two best teams in the NFL run it.

The Cover 2 is a form of the 4-3.

The Unseen
11-22-2006, 06:18 PM
Dream Defence:

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

LOLB: DeMarcus Ware
LILB: Brian Urlacher
RILB: Keith Bulluck
ROLB: Shawne Merriman

LCB: Champ Bailey
RCB: Rashean Mathis
FS: Ed Reed
SS: Sean Taylor

What the crap is a defence? The de-transliteration of the stadium signs?

It's the way everybody except Americans spells "defense".

Definition of sarchasm :.
(sär'kăz'əm)

1. (n.) The abyss between the creator of witticisms and the intended recipient who does not find the humor in it.

Paul
11-22-2006, 06:18 PM
Dream Defence:

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

LOLB: DeMarcus Ware
LILB: Brian Urlacher
RILB: Keith Bulluck
ROLB: Shawne Merriman

LCB: Champ Bailey
RCB: Rashean Mathis
FS: Ed Reed
SS: Sean Taylor

What the crap is a defence? The de-transliteration of the stadium signs?

It's the way everybody except Americans spells "defense".

Definition of sarchasm :.
(sär'kăz'əm)

1. (n.) The abyss between the creator of witticisms and the intended recipient who does not find the humor in it.

Sarcasm is hard to detect over the internet.

11-22-2006, 06:18 PM
Dream Defence:

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

LOLB: DeMarcus Ware
LILB: Brian Urlacher
RILB: Keith Bulluck
ROLB: Shawne Merriman

LCB: Champ Bailey
RCB: Rashean Mathis
FS: Ed Reed
SS: Sean Taylor

What the crap is a defence? The de-transliteration of the stadium signs?

It's the way everybody except Americans spells "defense".

Guess what country the NFL is played in?

Moses
11-22-2006, 06:19 PM
Dream Defence:

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

LOLB: DeMarcus Ware
LILB: Brian Urlacher
RILB: Keith Bulluck
ROLB: Shawne Merriman

LCB: Champ Bailey
RCB: Rashean Mathis
FS: Ed Reed
SS: Sean Taylor

What the crap is a defence? The de-transliteration of the stadium signs?

It's the way everybody except Americans spells "defense".

Definition of sarchasm :.
(sär'kăz'əm)

1. (n.) The abyss between the creator of witticisms and the intended recipient who does not find the humor in it.

Sarcasm is hard to detect over the internet.

Exactly.

The Legend
11-22-2006, 06:20 PM
my full 3-4 team is this

LE - Darnell Dockett (290) | NT - Shaun Rodgers (350) | RE - Tommie Harris (290)

LOLB - Derrick Johnson | ILB - Brian Urlacher | ILB - Al Wilson | ROLB - Manny Lawson

CB - Antonie Winfield | FS - Brian Dawkins | SS - Rodney Harrison | CB - Ronde Barber

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-22-2006, 06:20 PM
Dream Defence:

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

LOLB: DeMarcus Ware
LILB: Brian Urlacher
RILB: Keith Bulluck
ROLB: Shawne Merriman

LCB: Champ Bailey
RCB: Rashean Mathis
FS: Ed Reed
SS: Sean Taylor

What the crap is a defence? The de-transliteration of the stadium signs?

It's the way everybody except Americans spells "defense".

Guess what country the NFL is played in?


Guess what country he lives in.

Moses
11-22-2006, 06:20 PM
Dream Defence:

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

LOLB: DeMarcus Ware
LILB: Brian Urlacher
RILB: Keith Bulluck
ROLB: Shawne Merriman

LCB: Champ Bailey
RCB: Rashean Mathis
FS: Ed Reed
SS: Sean Taylor

What the crap is a defence? The de-transliteration of the stadium signs?

It's the way everybody except Americans spells "defense".

Guess what country the NFL is played in?

This is why Americans have been labelled as "ignorant".

The Legend
11-22-2006, 06:24 PM
Dream Defence:

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

LOLB: DeMarcus Ware
LILB: Brian Urlacher
RILB: Keith Bulluck
ROLB: Shawne Merriman

LCB: Champ Bailey
RCB: Rashean Mathis
FS: Ed Reed
SS: Sean Taylor

What the crap is a defence? The de-transliteration of the stadium signs?

It's the way everybody except Americans spells "defense".

Guess what country the NFL is played in?

This is why Americans have been labelled as "ignorant".


:lol: but get back to the topic of 3-4 vs 4-3

The Unseen
11-22-2006, 06:38 PM
Dream Defence:

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

LOLB: DeMarcus Ware
LILB: Brian Urlacher
RILB: Keith Bulluck
ROLB: Shawne Merriman

LCB: Champ Bailey
RCB: Rashean Mathis
FS: Ed Reed
SS: Sean Taylor

What the crap is a defence? The de-transliteration of the stadium signs?

It's the way everybody except Americans spells "defense".

Guess what country the NFL is played in?

This is why Americans have been labelled as "ignorant".

But it's true. BTW, where's Canada again?

Ravens1991
11-22-2006, 06:39 PM
hey guys can you please settle this between PMs, this is a good thread and I hope it doesnt get locked for 1 letter difference.

The Legend
11-22-2006, 06:41 PM
hey guys can you please settle this between PMs, this is a good thread and I hope it doesnt get locked for 1 letter difference.

but back to you point i can never see a 3-4 dline over 1000lbs

bigbluedefense
11-22-2006, 06:42 PM
If we're gonna talk about the best players in each position in a 3-4, we can only talk about guys who have played the technique before, because its impossible to predict accurately exactly who from the 4-3 would translate as effectively in the 3-4.

So having that said.

DE - Seymour
NT - Jamal Williams
DE - Luis Castillo

SOLB - Adalius Thomas
ILB - Donnie Edwards
ILB - Tedy Bruschi
WOLB - Shawn Merriman

Ravens1991
11-22-2006, 06:43 PM
Interesting BBD for having Adalius Thomas over Joey Porter I read on other forums that people have Porter labeled as the best 3-4 OLB in the leauge.

bigbluedefense
11-22-2006, 06:45 PM
hey guys can you please settle this between PMs, this is a good thread and I hope it doesnt get locked for 1 letter difference.

but back to you point i can never see a 3-4 dline over 1000lbs

That would be extremely difficult to pull off. 3-4 DEs have to still have some quickness so they can move laterally and defend the outside run. Also your LE in a 3-4 needs to be more versatile because he's the primary edge rusher in a 4 man rush out of the 3-4. 350 Lbs would not cut it, they would lack the lateral movement to be successful.

Until we find a freak of nature capable of moving laterally with quickness on a 350 lb frame, it will never happen.

bigbluedefense
11-22-2006, 06:48 PM
Interesting BBD for having Adalius Thomas over Joey Porter I read on other forums that people have Porter labeled as the best 3-4 OLB in the leauge.

Adalius Thomas has 8 sacks this season as a situational rushbacker in a 4-3 front. I could only imagine if they imployed a full time 3-4 as their base. Everyone would say "Shawne Merriman who?" because Adalius would dwarf his rather impressive season. Adalius Thomas is the best 3-4 OLB followed by Merriman.

Adalius is the best coverage defender, arguably the best pass rusher, and one heck of a run stuffer. He has no weakness

Moses
11-22-2006, 06:48 PM
Interesting BBD for having Adalius Thomas over Joey Porter I read on other forums that people have Porter labeled as the best 3-4 OLB in the leauge.

Not after the way Porter has played this year.

Ravens1991
11-22-2006, 06:49 PM
Thank you I have said that on other message boards and people called me a homer and a idiot and so on.

Paul
11-22-2006, 06:50 PM
Interesting BBD for having Adalius Thomas over Joey Porter I read on other forums that people have Porter labeled as the best 3-4 OLB in the leauge.

He WAS the best, but the new crop of 3-4 OLB have matched if not surpassed Porter in pure talent and production right now: Shawn Merriman, Demarcus Ware and the underrated Kamerion Wimbley.

Ravens1991
11-22-2006, 06:52 PM
How does everyone feel if Terrell Suggs played OLB in a 3-4 were he would be ranked up with some players.

Merch
11-22-2006, 06:53 PM
Dream Defence:

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

LOLB: DeMarcus Ware
LILB: Brian Urlacher
RILB: Keith Bulluck
ROLB: Shawne Merriman

LCB: Champ Bailey
RCB: Rashean Mathis
FS: Ed Reed
SS: Sean Taylor

What the crap is a defence? The de-transliteration of the stadium signs?

It's the way everybody except Americans spells "defense".

Too right. Offence has a 'c' in as well. Oh and don't forget the 'u' in colour.

Merch
11-22-2006, 06:56 PM
4-3, I prefer two DT's and just one MLB to the NT and 2 MLB's. Also I like more athletic MLB's (Brian Urlacher, Ray Lewis), and they are generally found more in the 4-3 defence.

bigbluedefense
11-22-2006, 06:57 PM
I also want to discuss this notion that the 3-4 is quicker than the 4-3. This is actually false.

We assume that because you have an extra linebacker, that your team defense is faster, but the truth is 3-4 defenses are slower than 4-3 defenses, and actually thicker when you add up the total body mass of the front 7.

The prototypical 3-4 has these respective weights.

DE - 290
NT - 340
OLB - 260
ILB - 250

Thats 1940 lbs of mass in the front 7.

The prototypical 4-3 bodyweights are

DE - 270
NT - 310
UT - 300
MLB - 240
SLB - 240
WILL - 235

Thats 1865 lbs of mass.

The 4-3 has smaller quicker linebackers who play the middle of the field faster than the 3-4.

Remember, while the 3-4 may have one extra LB, youre usually blitzing that LB, leaving 3 LBs in coverage who tend to be thicker than 4-3 Lbs, so you have less speed in coverage. Plus, your 3 downlinemen are essentially all DTs, so you get less overall speed out of the pass rush as well.

This is why the 3-4 is better against the run, but worst against the pass. You have a thicker front 7 against the run, and its spaced out so its difficult to bounce it outside as well. However, the overall weight of the front 7 reduces team speed, making coverage a little slower, and pass rush a little slower, thus equating to worse pass defense.

Don't believe me? Think about who has the best run defenses in the league. Dallas, Pittsburgh, and SD. All 3-4 teams. Who has the best pass defenses? Generally Cover 2 teams, built on speed and 4-3 fronts, like the Bears.

bigbluedefense
11-22-2006, 07:10 PM
How does everyone feel if Terrell Suggs played OLB in a 3-4 were he would be ranked up with some players.

Well, he has played in it before, and at a very high level. I personally felt that Baltimore is more suited for the 3-4 with Thomas and Suggs, but theyre just accomodating Ray until he retires with their 4-3 right now.

Suggs would be a great pass rusher and run stuffer, but at his current frame he's a little too thick for great pass coverage. He'd be good, but not top level.

I think when you talk about pass coverage, the best 3-4 OLBs are

Adalius, Joey Porter, Demarcus Ware, and Mike Vrabel (McGinnest gets honorary mention for years of great coverage)

In terms of pass rushing you have
Adalius, Merriman, Suggs, Ware

In terms of run stuffing
Adalius, Merriman, Ware, Suggs, Porter are all in the same level

I think having that said, its very difficult to make a list of 3-4 olbs, but its easier to discuss who would be the best out of these guys.

I think its between Adalius and Merriman.

But a better question is what if we introduced DEs into the mix? Jason Taylor, Osi Umenyiora, maybe Alex Brown...they would all thrive as rushbackers in a 3-4 too, so its very difficult to say whos best.

Out of the guys who have played 3-4, Id say the best is Adalius followed by Merriman.

11-22-2006, 07:12 PM
Dream Defence:

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

LOLB: DeMarcus Ware
LILB: Brian Urlacher
RILB: Keith Bulluck
ROLB: Shawne Merriman

LCB: Champ Bailey
RCB: Rashean Mathis
FS: Ed Reed
SS: Sean Taylor

What the crap is a defence? The de-transliteration of the stadium signs?

It's the way everybody except Americans spells "defense".

Guess what country the NFL is played in?

This is why Americans have been labelled as "ignorant".

I was kidding around.

draftguru151
11-22-2006, 08:43 PM
My defense.

OE- Jason Taylor
DT- Richard Seymour
NT- Jamal Williams
DE- Julius Peppers

WLB- Keith Bulluck
MLB- Brian Urlacher
SLB- Adalius Thomas/Marcus Washington

smittyjs
11-22-2006, 08:45 PM
4-3 without a doubt.

Flyboy
11-22-2006, 08:53 PM
I would go 3-4 because more teams run the 4-3, so 3-4 prospects would be easier to find later in the draft, also teams that run the 3-4 have had a lot of sucess from what I've seen.

Why is there no Cover 2 option? The two best teams in the NFL run it.

The Cowboys and Chargers both run 3-4 silly.

The Bears run the 4-3...

Ravens1991
11-22-2006, 08:56 PM
Speaking of a cover 2, what are the basics of that scheme.

SuperMcGee
11-22-2006, 08:57 PM
I would go 3-4 because more teams run the 4-3, so 3-4 prospects would be easier to find later in the draft, also teams that run the 3-4 have had a lot of sucess from what I've seen.

Why is there no Cover 2 option? The two best teams in the NFL run it.

The Cowboys and Chargers both run 3-4 silly.

The Bears run the 4-3...

...and so do the Bills!

draftguru151
11-22-2006, 09:00 PM
Speaking of a cover 2, what are the basics of that scheme.

DL generates pressure, LBs are fast and get after the ball. Gives up size for speed. Rarely blitz. A lot of zone coverage.

11-22-2006, 09:10 PM
I would go 3-4 because more teams run the 4-3, so 3-4 prospects would be easier to find later in the draft, also teams that run the 3-4 have had a lot of sucess from what I've seen.

Why is there no Cover 2 option? The two best teams in the NFL run it.

The Cowboys and Chargers both run 3-4 silly.

The Bears run the 4-3...

The run the Cover Two variation.

11-22-2006, 09:15 PM
I would go 3-4 because more teams run the 4-3, so 3-4 prospects would be easier to find later in the draft, also teams that run the 3-4 have had a lot of sucess from what I've seen.

Why is there no Cover 2 option? The two best teams in the NFL run it.

The Cowboys and Chargers both run 3-4 silly.

Yep the 6-4 Cowboys are one of the two best teams in the league. :roll:

As for the question, I've never liked the 3-4 for one reason or another but I think it is the better defense, because you have essentially 3 DT's on your line and have two OLB's that can edge rush or cover. I just think you can do more with it.

rainbeaukid2
11-22-2006, 09:31 PM
i think that the 3-4 is a more versatile defense as you can change it up as the placement, you can put an LB with his hand down to make it the 4-3, etc. I personally dont think that either of them is better, i think that it totally depends on the talent of the team

SFbear
11-22-2006, 09:56 PM
Don't believe me? Think about who has the best run defenses in the league. Dallas, Pittsburgh, and SD. All 3-4 teams. Who has the best pass defenses? Generally Cover 2 teams, built on speed and 4-3 fronts, like the Bears.

Minnesota has been very stout against the run and weak against the pass and they run the cover 2. Although I would probably attribute this to Pat Williams not being a prototypical one gap DT.

The growing popularity of the cover two is mainly due to the lack corner backs that have the athletic ability to play man coverage effectively with the new illegal contact rules. Teams are realizing that they cant leave their corner backs on island hence the safety help and dedication to pass rush with the dline.

I think you discriminate against the Tampa 2 unfairly because you assume old school ideals that the DT must be the anchors of run defense. The cover 2 can be very stout against the run because jsut like the pass rush comes from unconventional sources (DT's) the run defense comes from unconventional sources (cornerbacks and safetys). Defensive backs have an active roll in the run defense and must always be physical and swarm to the ball. It requires discipline and great instincts from all the players behind the dline. Its affectionally called being "gap sound".

Ill admit that Chicago will be less likely stop numerous run plays up the middle on a dime like say the Jaguars. Mistakes by linebackers and dbs will result in a few runs here and there. But the Chicago dlne will be more likely to occasionly break into the backfield and disrupt running plays before they start(see Tommie Harris) Its a give and take. A big weakness of this approach altough is when probowl DB's like Mike Brown or Bob Sanders with great instincts against th run go down to injury, the run D suffers immensely. I have a theory that it is because of their active roll in the run and their smaller sizes than the running backs their throwing themselves at that contribute to their injury problems.

Still the biggest advantage of the Tampa 2 in my opinion is being able to have a shut down pass D without breaking the bank on shutdown cornerbacks like Champ Bailey.

draftguru151
11-22-2006, 09:58 PM
The Vikings also don't have the normal cover 2 players.

SFbear
11-22-2006, 09:59 PM
Notice the two Tampa 2 "letdowns" in the playoffs last year were Indy and Chicago. Both teams lost their SS for the game. I think these were bigger factors than the dlines.

The Legend
11-22-2006, 10:01 PM
My defense.

OE- Jason Taylor
DT- Richard Seymour
NT- Jamal Williams
DE- Julius Peppers

WLB- Keith Bulluck
MLB- Brian Urlacher
SLB- Adalius Thomas/Marcus Washington
can play 3/4 or 4/3

Flyboy
11-22-2006, 10:16 PM
I would go 3-4 because more teams run the 4-3, so 3-4 prospects would be easier to find later in the draft, also teams that run the 3-4 have had a lot of sucess from what I've seen.

Why is there no Cover 2 option? The two best teams in the NFL run it.

The Cowboys and Chargers both run 3-4 silly.

The Bears run the 4-3...

The run the Cover Two variation.

Damn, you're right. Totally slipped my mind.

draftguru151
11-22-2006, 10:17 PM
My defense.

OE- Jason Taylor
DT- Richard Seymour
NT- Jamal Williams
DE- Julius Peppers

WLB- Keith Bulluck
MLB- Brian Urlacher
SLB- Adalius Thomas/Marcus Washington
can play 3/4 or 4/3

That is the point. That is my hybrid defense.

The Legend
11-22-2006, 10:27 PM
My defense.

OE- Jason Taylor
DT- Richard Seymour
NT- Jamal Williams
DE- Julius Peppers

WLB- Keith Bulluck
MLB- Brian Urlacher
SLB- Adalius Thomas/Marcus Washington
can play 3/4 or 4/3

That is the point. That is my hybrid defense.


he is my Defensive Player of the year so far

9 SACKS
2 INTS
40 TACKLES
7 FORCE FUMBLES
2 TOUCHDOWNSS
100 RETURN YARDS

also like 100 hurries

draftguru151
11-22-2006, 10:33 PM
My defense.

OE- Jason Taylor
DT- Richard Seymour
NT- Jamal Williams
DE- Julius Peppers

WLB- Keith Bulluck
MLB- Brian Urlacher
SLB- Adalius Thomas/Marcus Washington
can play 3/4 or 4/3

That is the point. That is my hybrid defense.


he is my Defensive Player of the year so far

9 SACKS
2 INTS
40 TACKLES
7 FORCE FUMBLES
2 TOUCHDOWNSS
100 RETURN YARDS

also like 100 hurries

:lol:
http://www.nflspot.com/nflspotv2/blog/index.html

Click on the Dolphins.

11-22-2006, 10:35 PM
My defense.

OE- Jason Taylor
DT- Richard Seymour
NT- Jamal Williams
DE- Julius Peppers

WLB- Keith Bulluck
MLB- Brian Urlacher
SLB- Adalius Thomas/Marcus Washington
can play 3/4 or 4/3

That is the point. That is my hybrid defense.


he is my Defensive Player of the year so far

9 SACKS
2 INTS
40 TACKLES
7 FORCE FUMBLES
2 TOUCHDOWNSS
100 RETURN YARDS

also like 100 hurries

:lol:
http://***********/nflspotv2/blog/index.html

Click on the Dolphins.

Good read Daniel.

draftguru151
11-22-2006, 10:37 PM
Most people know my name on here already.

The Legend
11-22-2006, 10:41 PM
Most people know my name on here already.

what the link it came out **********

draftguru151
11-22-2006, 10:41 PM
Most people know my name on here already.

what the link it came out **********

Long story but I think because the site is blocked out.

Moses
11-22-2006, 10:56 PM
Speaking of a cover 2, what are the basics of that scheme.

DL generates pressure, LBs are fast and get after the ball. Gives up size for speed. Rarely blitz. A lot of zone coverage.

Cover 2
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/6459/cover2diagramut5.gif

Tampa 2
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3668/tampa2diagramfp0.gif

The basic premise of the Cover 2 and Tampa 2 is that everybody drops back into zone coverage and the front four generate a pass rush. The advantage is that you don't need to play man-to-man, it can be difficult to be beaten deep, and you can create a lot of turnovers. The disadvantage is that their are soft spots in the zone that can be taken advantage of and it's tough to get pressure on the quarterback with only four pass rushers.

The Legend
11-22-2006, 10:57 PM
Most people know my name on here already.

what the link it came out **********

Long story but I think because the site is blocked out.

so what was the link about

draftguru151
11-22-2006, 10:59 PM
It's my blog on how Jason Taylor should be MVP.

The Legend
11-22-2006, 11:03 PM
It's my blog on how Jason Taylor should be MVP.

nice

doingthisinsteadofwork
11-22-2006, 11:45 PM
The Raiders run the 4-3.

11-22-2006, 11:45 PM
The Raiders run the 4-3.

So the 3-4 is better?

doingthisinsteadofwork
11-22-2006, 11:47 PM
The Raiders run the 4-3.

So the 3-4 is better?uhh no.the raiders d is definetely one of the most underated in the nfl.though you would have seen that when they crushed the cards.

11-22-2006, 11:48 PM
The Raiders run the 4-3.

So the 3-4 is better?uhh no.the raiders d is definetely one of the most underated in the nfl.though you would have seen that when they crushed the cards.

It was a joke buddy calm down. And you far from "crushed" us.

Denver Bronco99
11-23-2006, 01:46 PM
It depends on your division as i think you build to battle inthe division first.


so if you were in a pass happy division. I would def run the 3-4. It creates mismatches and add pass rushers with usually more speed.

but in a run happy division i would run 4-3. As it adds more lineman to help clog the lanes and keeps the blockers off your LBs

Shiver
11-23-2006, 04:22 PM
How so? The 3-4 is great against the run, if you have the right personnel for it.

Shiver
11-23-2006, 04:25 PM
Speaking of defenses, the one I love, is what Rex Ryan is running in Baltimore. It is insane to watch, the schemes, versatility, innovation. You cannot really classify it as any specific kind of defense, they call it "controlled chaos." It's amazing their own players know what to do.

Ravens1991
11-23-2006, 06:09 PM
heck yea we show so many fronts, we switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4 at basically any play. The only thing I dont like about the D if Reed plays a lot of Cover 2 and not the way he won DPOY award.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-23-2006, 06:17 PM
Hey shiver, who said the thing in your sig?

rainbeaukid2
11-23-2006, 09:50 PM
heck yea we show so many fronts, we switch from a 4-3 to a 3-4 at basically any play. The only thing I dont like about the D if Reed plays a lot of Cover 2 and not the way he won DPOY award.

that is also what i like about the niners defense as it is basically the same thing as nolan was the defensive coordinator in baltimore before coming over to san francisco.

sweetness34
11-23-2006, 11:13 PM
Thanks draftguru, you just gave me the perfect setup to rip into the Cover 2.

Cover 2 S UCKS

Defenses weren't meant to be wimpy. Those small quickies could get owned by the big overpowering olinemen I would build my offense around. Speed kills. Kills your run defense that is. Ive said it before and I'll say it again, any style defense who's major weakness is against the power run, and is built to stop the pass is not a good base defense. You cannot be an elite defense in this league either if you cannot play man coverage. And the small secondaries of the Cover 2 cannot hold up in their man assignments.

Cover 2 can't defend the TE entirely well either. And its too basic of a scheme. Come December when teams look at a year of tape and analyze your weaknesses, the Cover 2 scheme has no answer. Its too basic of a scheme, and you won't confuse any qbs with it.

Cover 2 can work, I won't deny that. But its just not my cup of tea. Theres too many inherit flaws in the philosophy. I grew up playing smashmouth football, and the Cover 2's philosophies go against most of the principles I grew up playing and believing in.

Tell that to the best defense in the NFL. :P 8)

Shiver
11-23-2006, 11:45 PM
Hey shiver, who said the thing in your sig?


Someone on a different forum. :lol:

Shiver
11-23-2006, 11:46 PM
Tell that to the best defense in the NFL. :P 8)


Well you guys aren't the typical. Most Tampa 2 schemes involve small linebackers, you have a 250-lbs beast in the middle. That helps a lot against the run.

Shiver
11-23-2006, 11:49 PM
Cover 2 can work, I won't deny that. But its just not my cup of tea. Theres too many inherit flaws in the philosophy. I grew up playing smashmouth football, and the Cover 2's philosophies go against most of the principles I grew up playing and believing in.

BBD, the correct terminology you're looking for is "Tampa 2." Jacksonville runs almost exclusively cover 2 and cover 3, but they have two beast interior tackles. Whereas in the Tony Dungy system, what you are referring to, almost everyone is undersized.

Jonathan_VIlma
11-24-2006, 12:01 AM
Tell that to the best defense in the NFL. :P 8)


Well you guys aren't the typical. Most Tampa 2 schemes involve small linebackers, you have a 250-lbs beast in the middle. That helps a lot against the run.
Not to mention he's surrounded by two 240 lbs. linebackers outside of him.

Shiver
11-24-2006, 12:03 AM
Even their D-Line is bigger than usual for the scheme. Same with Minnesota. It's Indianapolis, with their reliance on extremely undersized D-Line and LBs that are the example of what can happen when you rely too much on speed. I think Indy's problem is they have too much money tied into the offense, they cannot get the talent, other Tampa 2 teams have. Thus they have been consistently bad. The system only works when you have elite players at every position.

The Unseen
11-24-2006, 08:28 AM
Cover 2 can work, I won't deny that. But its just not my cup of tea. Theres too many inherit flaws in the philosophy. I grew up playing smashmouth football, and the Cover 2's philosophies go against most of the principles I grew up playing and believing in.

BBD, the correct terminology you're looking for is "Tampa 2." Jacksonville runs almost exclusively cover 2 and cover 3, but they have two beast interior tackles. Whereas in the Tony Dungy system, what you are referring to, almost everyone is undersized.

This is true. Something tells me that the Jaguars blitz a little more than they did last year, but I don't know that for sure, and it's still not enough to call the Jags' D a blitzing one.

draftguru151
11-24-2006, 09:56 AM
Speaking of defenses, the one I love, is what Rex Ryan is running in Baltimore. It is insane to watch, the schemes, versatility, innovation. You cannot really classify it as any specific kind of defense, they call it "controlled chaos." It's amazing their own players know what to do.

Miami does it too, and Jason Taylor is better than anyone on the Ravens front 7. He goes everywhere.

Shiver
11-24-2006, 09:58 AM
Does Miami ever run a formation with their "MIKE" at the FS position? Baltimore does. :shock:

draftguru151
11-24-2006, 10:00 AM
Does Miami ever run a formation with their "MIKE" at the FS position? Baltimore does. :shock:

:lol: Um, yea that is just nuts. But Keith Traylor does play LB from time to time.

thetedginnshow
11-24-2006, 10:36 AM
Adalius Thomas is a beast. Even more versatile than the great Jason Taylor, and I think he weighs more too.

Anyway, I'd go for the 4-3. Never really been a fan of the 3-4, unless teams use it sparingly or you're Dallas where I just happen to like most of their players. I just think a dominant front seven in the 4-3 is better than the same in a 3-4.

draftguru151
11-24-2006, 10:42 AM
Adalius Thomas is a beast. Even more versatile than the great Jason Taylor, and I think he weighs more too.

Anyway, I'd go for the 4-3. Never really been a fan of the 3-4, unless teams use it sparingly or you're Dallas where I just happen to like most of their players. I just think a dominant front seven in the 4-3 is better than the same in a 3-4.

He still can't do the things Jason does, and the only position he lines up at that JT doesn't is safety, which Thomas doesn't do that much.

thetedginnshow
11-24-2006, 10:44 AM
Adalius Thomas is a beast. Even more versatile than the great Jason Taylor, and I think he weighs more too.

Anyway, I'd go for the 4-3. Never really been a fan of the 3-4, unless teams use it sparingly or you're Dallas where I just happen to like most of their players. I just think a dominant front seven in the 4-3 is better than the same in a 3-4.

He still can't do the things Jason does, and the only position he lines up at that JT doesn't is safety, which Thomas doesn't do that much.

Taylor lines up at CB? But yeah. I love Jason Taylor, but really, he can do things Adalius can't at DE, and Adalius can do things he can't just about everywhere else. Both are beasts though.

draftguru151
11-24-2006, 10:49 AM
Adalius playing CB is blown up too much because all he really does is play LB really wide, all he does is jam the receiver and play the flats.

Really though, imagine if Miami signs him in the offseason to play SLB. That would be ridiculous.

Ravens1991
11-24-2006, 11:05 AM
Adalius playing CB is blown up too much because all he really does is play LB really wide, all he does is jam the receiver and play the flats.
Really though, imagine if Miami signs him in the offseason to play SLB. That would be ridiculous.


He actually played man-to-man against Chad Johnson

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/the_bonus/11/21/thomas/index.html

He is a beast, if he gets into a permanant 3-4 D he will be a DPOY candidate.

draftguru151
11-24-2006, 11:58 AM
Adalius playing CB is blown up too much because all he really does is play LB really wide, all he does is jam the receiver and play the flats.
Really though, imagine if Miami signs him in the offseason to play SLB. That would be ridiculous.


He actually played man-to-man against Chad Johnson

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/the_bonus/11/21/thomas/index.html

He is a beast, if he gets into a permanant 3-4 D he will be a DPOY candidate.

That is exactly what I said, he jams the receiver. :?

Ravens1991
11-24-2006, 06:13 PM
It said he was man to man against him.

draftguru151
11-24-2006, 06:32 PM
It said he was man to man against him.

Still all he did was jam him. It isn't hard to do man to man against a guy when you throw him to the sideline. If it was man to man and CJ got off the line Thomas would have been burnt. I would take JT one on one with CJ over Thomas.

bigbluedefense
11-25-2006, 11:11 AM
It depends on your division as i think you build to battle inthe division first.


so if you were in a pass happy division. I would def run the 3-4. It creates mismatches and add pass rushers with usually more speed.

but in a run happy division i would run 4-3. As it adds more lineman to help clog the lanes and keeps the blockers off your LBs

I also want to discuss this notion that the 3-4 is quicker than the 4-3. This is actually false.

We assume that because you have an extra linebacker, that your team defense is faster, but the truth is 3-4 defenses are slower than 4-3 defenses, and actually thicker when you add up the total body mass of the front 7.

The prototypical 3-4 has these respective weights.

DE - 290
NT - 340
OLB - 260
ILB - 250

Thats 1940 lbs of mass in the front 7.

The prototypical 4-3 bodyweights are

DE - 270
NT - 310
UT - 300
MLB - 240
SLB - 240
WILL - 235

Thats 1865 lbs of mass.

The 4-3 has smaller quicker linebackers who play the middle of the field faster than the 3-4.

Remember, while the 3-4 may have one extra LB, youre usually blitzing that LB, leaving 3 LBs in coverage who tend to be thicker than 4-3 Lbs, so you have less speed in coverage. Plus, your 3 downlinemen are essentially all DTs, so you get less overall speed out of the pass rush as well.

This is why the 3-4 is better against the run, but worst against the pass. You have a thicker front 7 against the run, and its spaced out so its difficult to bounce it outside as well. However, the overall weight of the front 7 reduces team speed, making coverage a little slower, and pass rush a little slower, thus equating to worse pass defense.

Don't believe me? Think about who has the best run defenses in the league. Dallas, Pittsburgh, and SD. All 3-4 teams. Who has the best pass defenses? Generally Cover 2 teams, built on speed and 4-3 fronts, like the Bears.

The 3-4 is actually better suited against run oriented teams, and the 4-3 against passing teams. 4-3 teams tend to generate a better pass rush compared to the 3-4, and have more athletic LBs who can defend the middle of the field.

stephenson86
11-25-2006, 11:17 AM
id take 46, with a SS who can cover and stuff the run, then 3 lock down DB's

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-25-2006, 11:25 AM
id take 46, with a SS who can cover and stuff the run, then 3 lock down DB's

But that's next to impossible. Your secondary would need to be like D-Hall, Champ, Ed Reed and Sean Taylor. It'd be a good defense if you had them, but the only way that would happen is if there was life on Mars and tey played football and challenged us to a football war.

Boston
11-25-2006, 11:33 AM
id take 46, with a SS who can cover and stuff the run, then 3 lock down DB's

But that's next to impossible. Your secondary would need to be like D-Hall, Champ, Ed Reed and Sean Taylor. It'd be a good defense if you had them, but the only way that would happen is if there was life on Mars and tey played football and challenged us to a football war.

I think other countries would be far less out there.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-25-2006, 11:59 AM
id take 46, with a SS who can cover and stuff the run, then 3 lock down DB's

But that's next to impossible. Your secondary would need to be like D-Hall, Champ, Ed Reed and Sean Taylor. It'd be a good defense if you had them, but the only way that would happen is if there was life on Mars and tey played football and challenged us to a football war.

I think other countries would be far less out there.

The only other country that plays football that I know of is Canada, and there are two things you need to know. It's a different game. And our best player is Jesse Palmer or Jesse Lumsden, neither of whom made NFL rosters.

draftguru151
11-25-2006, 12:13 PM
And we all know Mars has a bunch of all stars. :lol:

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-25-2006, 12:26 PM
And we all know Mars has a bunch of all stars. :lol:


Well now that I think of it, Canada would own all of you guys. KYLE QUINLAN ROCKS!!!

draftguru151
11-25-2006, 12:40 PM
And we all know Mars has a bunch of all stars. :lol:


Well now that I think of it, Canada would own all of you guys. KYLE QUINLAN ROCKS!!!

:lol:

bigbluedefense
11-25-2006, 01:42 PM
Cover 2 can work, I won't deny that. But its just not my cup of tea. Theres too many inherit flaws in the philosophy. I grew up playing smashmouth football, and the Cover 2's philosophies go against most of the principles I grew up playing and believing in.

BBD, the correct terminology you're looking for is "Tampa 2." Jacksonville runs almost exclusively cover 2 and cover 3, but they have two beast interior tackles. Whereas in the Tony Dungy system, what you are referring to, almost everyone is undersized.

I know, most refer to it as Cover 2 though, thats why I say it. Tampa 2 is an extreme variation of Cover 2.

The Cover 2 is starting to develop several different variations throughout the league. Minny and Detroit are not true Cover 2 teams, they are Cover 2 in principle with their own little twist to it. Jacksonville runs alot of Cover 2 as well.

Chicago is still for the most part though, a pure Cover 2 team. The only difference is that they have a thicker MIKE and SAM. Thats about the only difference though.

Minny and Jacksonville use alot of Cover 2 principles, but the DEs still have gap assignments against the run, their Dtackles are traditional in makeup, and they have DBs who can play man coverage. So I wouldn't classify them as true Cover 2 teams.

Ravens1991
11-25-2006, 02:20 PM
Who do you all think the best DT is? I have seen John Henderson and I think he is a beast, Kris Jenkins is very good also, I havent had a chance to see Shaun Rogers.

bigbluedefense
11-25-2006, 02:27 PM
Who do you all think the best DT is? I have seen John Henderson and I think he is a beast, Kris Jenkins is very good also, I havent had a chance to see Shaun Rogers.

Impossible to say, different Dtackles thrive in different schemes.

3-4 - Jamal Williams
Conventional 4-3 - Shaun Rogers
Cover 2 - Tommie Harris

diabsoule
11-25-2006, 03:34 PM
I'm a 4-3 man, myself. I'd like to use a hybrid in a perfect world, but a choice between the two is a 4-3. I'd take that with a top-notch secondary.

The Unseen
11-25-2006, 03:49 PM
A more complete answer from me...

I'd love to use what the Ravens run: random, versatile, attacking, and confusing. However, they have some great and seldom talent that makes it what it is, "in a perfect world" as diabsoule said. In a less perfect world, I'd choose a 4-3, with more of a blitzing, man-to-man style; somewhere between a normal 4-3 and a blitz-happy one like the 2005 Broncos concerning blitz rate.

Denver Bronco99
11-25-2006, 08:18 PM
i would def run a hybrid type Dline

but it would be a 4-3

DE-Peppers
DT-Jamal Williams
DT-Vince wilfork
DE-Tommie Harris

all GOOD players my DT would eat any oline, and harris could easily play DE..but he would have size to help in the run game

draftguru151
11-25-2006, 08:34 PM
i would def run a hybrid type Dline

but it would be a 4-3

DE-Peppers
DT-Jamal Williams
DT-Vince wilfork
DE-Tommie Harris

all GOOD players my DT would eat any oline, and harris could easily play DE..but he would have size to help in the run game

How is that a hybrid defense?

Ravens1991
11-25-2006, 08:36 PM
good question, I think he means having Harris at DE is a hybrid , Wilfork or Williams are suited for a 3-4 NT, plus I am not sure if Tommie Harris would do well as a 3-4 DE.

bigbluedefense
11-25-2006, 08:40 PM
My hybrid

DE - Luis Castillo
NT - Jamal Williams
UT - Richard Seymour
DE - Osi Umenyiora

SAM - Marcus Washington
MIKE - Antonio Pierce
WILL - Adalius Thomas

the 3-4 look of it would be

DE - Richard Seymour
NT - Jamal Williams
DE - Luis Castillo

SAM - Adalius Thomas
ILB - Antonio Pierce
ILB - Marcus Washington
WILL - Osi Umenyiora

Ravens1991
11-25-2006, 09:02 PM
Are these correct 4-6 principles


A good well rounded d-line
OLB that are good at blitzing
good cover CB
a good deep zone S

draftguru151
11-25-2006, 09:05 PM
My hybridDE - Luis Castillo

I don't see him playing DE in a 4-3, and I would take Seymour at DE over him.

11-25-2006, 10:04 PM
well i mean liek the 34 is cool cuz theres like less people on teh line and stuff, but man, i gotta give it up for the 43 cuz that's like how old my mom is and stuff...

The Unseen
11-25-2006, 10:23 PM
Are these correct 4-6 principles


A great well rounded d-line
OLBs that are great at blitzing
fantastic cover CBs
a fantastic deep zone S

Fixed as shown? Yeah.

Ravens1991
11-25-2006, 10:26 PM
ok thank you, now I see why last year the Ravens institued a 46, Rolle and C-mac were good along w/ Reed, plus we had Adalius Thomas.

America
11-25-2006, 10:39 PM
My Hybrid

43

DE - Julius Peppers
DT - John Henderson
DT - Jamal Williams
DE - Mario Williams

OLB - Adalius Thomas
MLB - Brian Urlacher
OLB - Marcus Washington/Karlos Dansby

34

DE - Henderson
NT - Williams
DE - M. Williams

WOLB - Julius Peppers
ILB - Washington
MLB - Urlacher
SOLB - Thomas

Only reason Mario is in there is because of the potential to dominate both 34 and 43 defenses at DE.

draftguru151
11-25-2006, 10:46 PM
Karlos Dansby

I haven't heard his name all season.

America
11-25-2006, 10:47 PM
Karlos Dansby

I haven't heard his name all season.

I'm pretty sure before the season, they were worried he had a toe/foot injury that wouldn't let him play again. He's been playing hurt all year, but has still been solid. He's a beast.

draftguru151
11-25-2006, 10:50 PM
Karlos Dansby

I haven't heard his name all season.

I'm pretty sure before the season, they were worried he had a toe/foot injury that wouldn't let him play again. He's been playing hurt all year, but has still been solid. He's a beast.

I didn't even know if he recovered from the toe. He definately is a monster though.

doingthisinsteadofwork
11-25-2006, 10:57 PM
id take 46, with a SS who can cover and stuff the run, then 3 lock down DB's

But that's next to impossible. Your secondary would need to be like D-Hall, Champ, Ed Reed and Sean Taylor. It'd be a good defense if you had them, but the only way that would happen is if there was life on Mars and tey played football and challenged us to a football war.

I think other countries would be far less out there.

The only other country that plays football that I know of is Canada, and there are two things you need to know. It's a different game. And our best player is Jesse Palmer or Jesse Lumsden, neither of whom made NFL rosters.havent you ever heard of Turkey?geez do you live under a rock.Turkish football.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-25-2006, 11:09 PM
id take 46, with a SS who can cover and stuff the run, then 3 lock down DB's

But that's next to impossible. Your secondary would need to be like D-Hall, Champ, Ed Reed and Sean Taylor. It'd be a good defense if you had them, but the only way that would happen is if there was life on Mars and tey played football and challenged us to a football war.

I think other countries would be far less out there.

The only other country that plays football that I know of is Canada, and there are two things you need to know. It's a different game. And our best player is Jesse Palmer or Jesse Lumsden, neither of whom made NFL rosters.havent you ever heard of Turkey?geez do you live under a rock.Turkish football.


Don't diss my rock.

Denver Bronco99
11-26-2006, 12:12 PM
i would def run a hybrid type Dline

but it would be a 4-3

DE-Peppers
DT-Jamal Williams
DT-Vince wilfork
DE-Tommie Harris

all GOOD players my DT would eat any oline, and harris could easily play DE..but he would have size to help in the run game

How is that a hybrid defense?

using 3-4 nt as 4-3 dts and having a dt play DE


trust me that would be a sick ass dline as usually all of those players are double teamed. with that much size and strength in the middle peppers would easily break sack record....that line would probably be the best run stopping also

draftguru151
11-26-2006, 12:45 PM
That isn't a hybrid though, a hybrid is having a defense that can run a 4-3 or a 3-4, that is just a really big DL.

Moses
11-26-2006, 01:06 PM
That isn't a hybrid though, a hybrid is having a defense that can run a 4-3 or a 3-4, that is just a really big DL.

Peppers could drop back into the Rush Backer position but I'm not so sure Wilfork could play 3-4 DE.

thetedginnshow
11-26-2006, 01:26 PM
If you want a hybrid DL, make it something like

DE - Terrell Suggs
DT - John Henderson
DT - Shaun Rogers
DE - Will Smith

:D

The Unseen
11-26-2006, 01:40 PM
If you want a hybrid DL, make it something like

DE - Terrell Suggs
DT - John Henderson
DT - Shaun Rogers
DE - Will Smith

:D

That's not just hybrid, it's Chunky Soup with Beans.

draftguru151
11-26-2006, 01:47 PM
Hybrid

OE-Jason Taylor
DT- Luis Castillo
NT- Vince Wilfork
DE- Julius Peppers

Moses
11-26-2006, 01:49 PM
Ultimate Hybrid:

4-3

LDE: Richard Seymour
LDT: Tommie Harris
RDT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Julius Peppers

3-4

LDE: Richard Seymour
NT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Tommie Harris
Rushbacker: Julius Peppers

draftguru151
11-26-2006, 01:53 PM
Tommie Harris is not a 3-4 end. The real ultimate.

DE- Richard Seymour
NT- Jamal Williams
DT- Kevin Williams
OE- Jason Taylor/Peppers

What DE is perfect for that role that I have Seymour in because I can't find a dominate guy. Kevin Carter does it for Miami, Trevor Pryce is an option. I still think Peppers would dominant in that role.

thetedginnshow
11-26-2006, 01:53 PM
I couldn't ever really see Harris as a 3-4 DE. Switch that out with another one of the premier DTs in the league and I think it's pretty good, though have we ever seen Seymour as a 4-3 DE?

Moses
11-26-2006, 01:54 PM
Tommie Harris is not a 3-4 end. The real ultimate.

DE- Richard Seymour
NT- Jamal Williams
DT- Kevin Williams
OE- Jason Taylor/Peppers

What DE is perfect for that role that I have Seymour in because I can't find a dominate guy. Kevin Carter does it for Miami, Trevor Pryce is an option. I still think Peppers would dominant in that role.

Why could Harris not play end in the 3-4?

Moses
11-26-2006, 01:54 PM
I couldn't ever really see Harris as a 3-4 DE. Switch that out with another one of the premier DTs in the league and I think it's pretty good, though have we ever seen Seymour as a 4-3 DE?

The Patriots have played in a 4-3 set from time to time I believe.

draftguru151
11-26-2006, 01:55 PM
Tommie Harris is not a 3-4 end. The real ultimate.

DE- Richard Seymour
NT- Jamal Williams
DT- Kevin Williams
OE- Jason Taylor/Peppers

What DE is perfect for that role that I have Seymour in because I can't find a dominate guy. Kevin Carter does it for Miami, Trevor Pryce is an option. I still think Peppers would dominant in that role.

Why could Harris not play end in the 3-4?

He is a penerator, it would be like Sapp in a 3-4.

thetedginnshow
11-26-2006, 01:57 PM
Tommie Harris is not a 3-4 end. The real ultimate.

DE- Richard Seymour
NT- Jamal Williams
DT- Kevin Williams
OE- Jason Taylor/Peppers

What DE is perfect for that role that I have Seymour in because I can't find a dominate guy. Kevin Carter does it for Miami, Trevor Pryce is an option. I still think Peppers would dominant in that role.

Will Smith. 8)

But Kevin Williams is almost more solely based on penetrating than Harris. Henderson would probably be better.

Moses
11-26-2006, 01:57 PM
Try this on for size:

LDE: Julius Peppers
DT: Richard Seymour
DT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Jason Taylor

draftguru151
11-26-2006, 02:22 PM
Try this on for size:

LDE: Julius Peppers
DT: Richard Seymour
DT: Jamal Williams
RDE: Jason Taylor

Yea that works.

Mario should be able to fill that role in a few years. Right now he sucks.

Denver Bronco99
11-26-2006, 03:33 PM
That isn't a hybrid though, a hybrid is having a defense that can run a 4-3 or a 3-4, that is just a really big DL.

ok you are talking about hybrid meaning can do both,

my hybrid is having a D using both types of personel but running one set formation

EXE. having nts and DT played DE and running a 4-3

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-26-2006, 03:40 PM
I couldn't ever really see Harris as a 3-4 DE. Switch that out with another one of the premier DTs in the league and I think it's pretty good, though have we ever seen Seymour as a 4-3 DE?

The Patriots have played in a 4-3 set from time to time I believe.

I think he goes to DT when they do that.

Denver Bronco99
11-26-2006, 03:42 PM
That isn't a hybrid though, a hybrid is having a defense that can run a 4-3 or a 3-4, that is just a really big DL.

ok you are talking about hybrid meaning can do both,

my hybrid is having a D using both types of personel but running one set formation

EXE. having nts and DT played DE and running a 4-3

and if you dont think peppers could be a rush backer is hilarious as he can cover just as good as most lbs and is more athletic. WIlliams, wilfork and harris can easily play 3-4....

draftguru151
11-26-2006, 03:55 PM
Wilfork and Harris are not 3-4 DEs.

Denver Bronco99
11-26-2006, 04:08 PM
Wilfork and Harris are not 3-4 DEs.

i find it funny as you dont think they could play 3-4

i have no doubt they could play 3-4 ends

draftguru151
11-26-2006, 04:10 PM
Wilfork and Harris are not 3-4 DEs.

i find it funny as you dont think they could play 3-4

i have no doubt they could play 3-4 ends

Explain to me why a 3-4 NT would play 3-4 DE and why a penetrating DT could play 3-4 DE?

Shiver
11-26-2006, 04:11 PM
Mario should be able to fill that role in a few years. Right now he sucks.

A little harsh, considering he's their most, and only, productive D-Lineman.

draftguru151
11-26-2006, 04:12 PM
Mario should be able to fill that role in a few years. Right now he sucks.

A little harsh, considering he's their most, and only, productive D-Lineman.

Watching him today he got beat time after time. He was terrible in the run game and got pressure maybe twice. Babin looked a lot better than him.

Paul
11-26-2006, 04:12 PM
Wilfork and Harris are not 3-4 DEs.

i find it funny as you dont think they could play 3-4

i have no doubt they could play 3-4 ends

Why would you put Wilfork at DE in the 3-4? It makes no sense at all.

Tommie Harris could play DE but he won't be as productive as a DT in the 4-3.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-26-2006, 04:13 PM
Wilfork and Harris are not 3-4 DEs.

i find it funny as you dont think they could play 3-4

i have no doubt they could play 3-4 ends

Wilfork couldn't, he plays 3-4 NT, so no way he's athletic enough. Tommie Harris, could, but it would be like when Sapp did it, he wouldn't be that good. I don't even like Harris that much at 4-3 DE to be honest.

11-26-2006, 04:15 PM
Wilfork and Harris are not 3-4 DEs.

i find it funny as you dont think they could play 3-4

i have no doubt they could play 3-4 ends

Wilfork couldn't, he plays 3-4 NT, so no way he's athletic enough. Tommie Harris, could, but it would be like when Sapp did it, he wouldn't be that good. I don't even like Harris that much at 4-3 DE to be honest.

Yea I didn't understand that one either.

Paul
11-26-2006, 04:16 PM
If you want a Hybrid Defense just look at the Ravens D. Studs all over the place, Versitle players all on the Front 7.

Denver Bronco99
11-26-2006, 04:29 PM
Wilfork and Harris are not 3-4 DEs.

i find it funny as you dont think they could play 3-4

i have no doubt they could play 3-4 ends

Explain to me why a 3-4 NT would play 3-4 DE and why a penetrating DT could play 3-4 DE?

as i never planed on them playing a 3-4, i would run a 4-3 with mostly 3-4 type personel ....but they could def. play 3-4

and wilfork is more athletic then u all are giving him credit for...when he was at U of M he played in a 4-3 and def showed athletic ability

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-26-2006, 04:29 PM
My super stud D-Line:

LE-Peppers
NT-Henderson
UT-Stroud
RE-Freeney

**** versatility.

keylime_5
11-26-2006, 04:31 PM
A 3-4 with the all the proper personnel is almost unstoppable most of the time. A 4-3 always has some kinda flaw such as too weak against the run or too weak in the secondary, or no real pass rush. The 3-4 has a disguised pass rush and depending on how you look at it either 5 defensive linemen or 4 linebackers.

Paul
11-26-2006, 04:33 PM
Wilfork and Harris are not 3-4 DEs.

i find it funny as you dont think they could play 3-4

i have no doubt they could play 3-4 ends

Explain to me why a 3-4 NT would play 3-4 DE and why a penetrating DT could play 3-4 DE?

as i never planed on them playing a 3-4, i would run a 4-3 with mostly 3-4 type personel ....but they could def. play 3-4

and wilfork is more athletic then u all are giving him credit for...when he was at U of M he played in a 4-3 and def showed athletic ability

Ok... You still haven't explained how Wilfork can play DE in a 3-4.

Denver Bronco99
11-26-2006, 04:36 PM
here is my complete D

DE-Peppers
DT-Jamal Williams
DT-Wilfork
DE-Harris

OLB-Dj Williams
MLB-Brian Urlacher
OLB-Jonathan Vilma(i know he plays MLB, but he is undersized and when he was comming out he was on some sites projected as an olb, and him and DJ are best freinds so seeing them on the field together again would be somthing to see)

CB-Champ Bailey(best DB in the league)
FS-Sean Taylor
SS-Ed Reed(his dpoy was at SS)
CB-Rasheen Mathis

sweetness34
11-26-2006, 04:39 PM
here is my complete D

DE-Peppers
DT-Jamal Williams
DT-Wilfork
DE-Harris

OLB-Dj Williams
MLB-Brian Urlacher
OLB-Jonathan Vilma(i know he plays MLB, but he is undersized and when he was comming out he was on some sites projected as an olb, and him and DJ are best freinds so seeing them on the field together again would be somthing to see)

CB-Champ Bailey(best DB in the league)
FS-Sean Taylor
SS-Ed Reed(his dpoy was at SS)
CB-Rasheen Mathis

Jamal Williams as a 4-3 DT and Harris as a 4-3 DE? :?

Denver Bronco99
11-26-2006, 05:11 PM
here is my complete D

DE-Peppers
DT-Jamal Williams
DT-Wilfork
DE-Harris

OLB-Dj Williams
MLB-Brian Urlacher
OLB-Jonathan Vilma(i know he plays MLB, but he is undersized and when he was comming out he was on some sites projected as an olb, and him and DJ are best freinds so seeing them on the field together again would be somthing to see)

CB-Champ Bailey(best DB in the league)
FS-Sean Taylor
SS-Ed Reed(his dpoy was at SS)
CB-Rasheen Mathis

Jamal Williams as a 4-3 DT and Harris as a 4-3 DE? :?

dude i know it looks dumb...but i would def run a 4-3 2 gap. if you are familar with it it is ran very similar to a 3-4 in responsiblity...so having 2 mamoths at DT would not only be liek having 2 NTs but it would free up peppers..and since it is similar to a 3-4 you have to be able to hold ground and stop the run...hence having a very fast DT like harris who can still rush the passer but hold ground..and peppers just becuase he would def get oppurtunities as the other 3 would command double teams..actually everyone would

but a 4-3 2 gap is very similar to a 3-4 but having 4 lineman and both utilize 2 gap responsibilty

Ravens1991
11-26-2006, 05:54 PM
This would be my complete hybrid

DE-Basically a 3-4 OLB
DT-A big boy who can play 3-4 DT
DT-A good run stuffer who can play 3-4 DE
DE-A versatile player who can play 4-3 DE or 3-4 DE
OLB-A good rush backer and a player who can drop back into coverage
MLB-A good run stuffer who can also play 3-4 MLB
OLB-A pass coverage specialist who can play 3-4 MLB also