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-black
05-24-2007, 12:45 PM
Kobe Bryant is better than Michael Jordan.

Not more successful.

Hasn't had a bigger economic impact.

Hasn't won more MVPs.



Hasn't won more titles.

But he's a better player.

Kobe can do everything Michael did, and even a few things Michael couldn't do.

Kobe is just as good a defender. His killer instinct is just as pronounced. He can shoot, finish and explode. And just like Jordan, the more he's pissed off, the more unstoppable he is.

At the very least, Kobe's scoring spree over the last week should put to rest any lingering doubts that he's the best player in the NBA. Yes, better than Steve Nash, who is the best point guard, but not the lethal force that Kobe is. Yes, better than Dwyane Wade, who is certainly closer to the Kobe-Jordan level than LeBron James, but D-Wade's game is not as polished as Kobe's.

Kobe's streak of four straight 50-points-plus games is something none of those players can do, and it's something that hasn't been done since Wilt Chamberlain, who had an NBA-record seven straight 50-point games. Truthfully, Kobe should have tacked another 50 on Golden State on Sunday night.

Of course, the idea that Kobe is better than Jordan -- or even the best player in this league -- is as repugnant to some folks as a rectal exam. Even though Kobe has proven himself under pressure countless times, he gets the A-Rod treatment.

Kobe can't please anyone. And it doesn't help that most people suffer from revisionist history when it comes to Jordan, forgetting that he was just as poor a teammate and a ball hog and that he ran off coach Doug Collins like Kobe ran off Phil Jackson the first time.

In fact, you could argue that Jordan was even worse. Far as we know, Kobe hasn't jacked up any of his teammates the way Jordan punched out Steve Kerr and Will Perdue at practice.

Kobe will never be forgiven for Shaq's departure, but you're delusional if you think Jordan wouldn't have had any ego issues playing alongside a player with Shaq's star power.

The best-player argument shouldn't be determined by personal dislike. But if you want to take it there, fine. Jordan was hardly the ideal husband, but only the tabloids were brave enough to venture into his personal life. And what about those gambling issues? If Jordan's life had been covered like Kobe's, we would have an entirely different opinion of His Airness.

Besides a different level of media scrutiny, there was definitely a difference in the level of competition during Jordan's heyday compared to now.



Yesterday's NBA player certainly was more fundamentally sound, but there's no question that today's player is bigger, stronger and faster. When Jordan played, he was a singular force that could not be equaled. Jordan was guarded by the likes of John Starks and Joe Dumars, who were fine players but weren't nearly as skilled or physically imposing as LeBron, D-Wade, Tracy McGrady or even Vince Carter.

The NBA is tougher now.

Kobe, like Michael, is surrounded with mediocre to below-average talent, and Phoenix, Dallas and San Antonio are all better than the Utah, Portland and the Charles Barkley-led Phoenix team that Michael met in the NBA Finals.

Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing will be among the best centers ever, but none of them affected the league the way Shaq and Tim Duncan have. There are two two-time MVPs in Kobe's own conference (Duncan, Nash), which is a problem Jordan never faced during his championship runs. Seven-footers weren't launching 3s back then. Magic Johnson and the Lakers were on a downward spiral, and the Pistons were on their last legs. It was Michael and everyone else. That's not the case for Kobe.

The shame of it is that Kobe might finish his career without a MVP, even though his ability can be compared only to that of Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain. All this time we've been looking for a player who is better than Jordan, but most of us can't get beyond whether we like or dislike Kobe as a person to recognize his contributions to the game.

Ultimately the MVP award will go to either Nash or Dirk Nowitzki, who are deserving this season, but neither are as good as Kobe. Dallas and Phoenix are strong enough to make the playoffs without their stars. The Lakers, however, are a lottery team without Kobe.

Now that's a valuable player.


this lady got DESTROYED and bashed by everybody for this article. Anyone here want to debate?

here is her responding to the criticism she faced

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2819241&type=story

some of the backlash

http://www.aolsportsblog.com/2007/03/29/kobe-better-than-jordan-yeah-right/

http://www.yaysports.com/nba/2007/03/jemele_hill_blasphemizes.html



discuss

Vince Lombardi
05-24-2007, 12:47 PM
MJ ftw.......

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-24-2007, 12:48 PM
I ******* KNEW it would be Jemele Hill!

bigbluedefense
05-24-2007, 12:48 PM
Her stupidity doesn't even warrant a response. In fact, Im sure she wrote that for the sole purpose of generating such responses and buzz on the internet. So I won't help feed the troll.

Shiver
05-24-2007, 12:49 PM
I got a good laugh, thank you for posting that.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-24-2007, 12:54 PM
Jamele Hill could write a column on how much I love my girlfriend and it would make me want to break up with her. She ******* stinks.

Scar
05-24-2007, 01:00 PM
MJ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kober

I've never even heard of this Kober Bryant

-black
05-24-2007, 01:03 PM
MJ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Kober

I've never even heard of this Kober Bryant

i just caught that lol


no one wants to debate her points though?


Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson and Patrick Ewing will be among the best centers ever, but none of them affected the league the way Shaq and Tim Duncan have. There are two two-time MVPs in Kobe's own conference (Duncan, Nash), which is a problem Jordan never faced during his championship runs. Seven-footers weren't launching 3s back then. Magic Johnson and the Lakers were on a downward spiral, and the Pistons were on their last legs. It was Michael and everyone else. That's not the case for Kobe

Yesterday's NBA player certainly was more fundamentally sound, but there's no question that today's player is bigger, stronger and faster. When Jordan played, he was a singular force that could not be equaled. Jordan was guarded by the likes of John Starks and Joe Dumars

Ultimately the MVP award will go to either Nash or Dirk Nowitzki, who are deserving this season, but neither are as good as Kobe. Dallas and Phoenix are strong enough to make the playoffs without their stars. The Lakers, however, are a lottery team without Kobe.

Now that's a valuable player.

KCJ58
05-24-2007, 01:11 PM
Kobe Bryant is the Best NBA Player EVER!

JetMan
05-24-2007, 01:13 PM
I actually got into a big argument with my brother recently about this subject (me jordon) and couldn't believe someone who actually saw Jordon play his whole career could even think Kobe is better.

Jordon is the greatest player i have ever seen in any sport.

ricky bobby
05-24-2007, 01:13 PM
I'd take Kobe simply because I think he has the talent to be the most prolific scorer in NBA history.

Geo
05-24-2007, 01:14 PM
Jamele Hill could write a column on how much I love my girlfriend and it would make me want to break up with her. She ******* stinks.
lol!
good stuff

SubNoize
05-24-2007, 01:16 PM
I think that Kobe when all said and done will be better than Jordan. As of now, his skill set overall is better, but he needs to win a championship without Shaq to better prove his point. Scottie Pippen was solid but is nowhere near the presence Shaq is on those Lakers teams that took the trophy home. It is debatable though, i think the "blasphemy" comes from Jordan being this iconic figure more than his actual game. Jordan>Kobe for now you just can't argue the rings, but Kobe>Jordan when Kobe retires some time within the next decade...

fenikz
05-24-2007, 01:16 PM
Kobe Bryant is the Best NBA Player EVER!

lol funny stuff

sweetness34
05-24-2007, 01:17 PM
Um she realizes that in today's game it's MUCH easier to score than 10-20 years ago right? With all the rule changes and ticky tack fouls, the scoring has gone up. Also, the athleticism of the game may have improved but the quality hasn't. 10-20 years ago they were playing much better basketball than they are now.

Kobe has no clue how to get his teammates involved at all. It shows in the playoffs when he's forced to choose when to score and when to pass. MJ on the other hand was incredible at that. He knew when he had to take over and he knew when he had to get his teammates involved. The guy's floor sense was incredible.

MJ raised his game in the playoffs, scoring 3 more ppg in his career. Kobe stats wise goes down 5ppg in the playoffs. MJ has 6 titles, Kobe has 3. MJ has 5 MVP awards, Kobe has none. MJ was All Defense 10 times i his career. Kobe has 5 or 6. MJ statistically has better assist, rebounding, and steals numbers.

If you watch these two play in their primes, it's not even a question of who is better. MJ is hands down.

sweetness34
05-24-2007, 01:20 PM
I think that Kobe when all said and done will be better than Jordan. As of now, his skill set overall is better, but he needs to win a championship without Shaq to better prove his point. Scottie Pippen was solid but is nowhere near the presence Shaq is on those Lakers teams that took the trophy home. It is debatable though, i think the "blasphemy" comes from Jordan being this iconic figure more than his actual game. Jordan>Kobe for now you just can't argue the rings, but Kobe>Jordan when Kobe retires some time within the next decade...

I think you need to go back and watch those two play again. Kobe does not have an overall better skillset, you're kidding youself if you think he does.

Like I said, you put Kobe against Michael in their primes, MJ wins.

Scar
05-24-2007, 01:22 PM
She makes a case against her point saying that Olajuwon, Robinson, and Ewing are no O'Neal or Duncan. What has Kobe done without Shaq? Nothing: first round exits, missed playoffs? Some resume there. MJ went up against the Olajuwon's and Ewings in his day with guys like Bill Wennington and Luc Longley in his corner. Nobodies. And MJ prevailed. Kobe only prevailed riding on Shaq's shoulders.

It wasn't Michael against nobody either. Think of all the greats that never got a ring, just because MJ was so good that nobody else got the chance. Malone & Stockton: shot down twice in the finals by MJ. Barkley: lost in the finals to MJ. Ewing: only made the finals once when MJ was out of the game and was beat by Olajuwon who picked up his only rings in those seasons MJ didn't play.

MJ owned the league for a decade. Look at the guys that've owned the league for many years now, it's Shaq and Duncan, not Kobe. Kobe is a talented player, but to say he's better than MJ is just absurd.

Nitschke-Hawk
05-24-2007, 01:24 PM
Jordan is just as good of a scorer, more consistent and filled up the stat sheet.

Jordan's career averages, the average game are as follows-

38.3 Minutes 49.7 FG % 83.5 FT% 6.2 rebounds 5.3 assists 2.35 Steals 2.73 Turnovers 2.6 Fouls 30.3 points.

His playoff averages are higher in almost every category. Not to mention the awards that matter: 5 MVP's, 6 time NBA Finals MVP, 6 Championships, and was retired for two years in the middle of that stretch.

Bryant's career averages, the average game are as follows-

36.2 Minutes 45.3 FG % 83.8 FT% 5.2 rebounds 4.5 assists 1.5 Steals 2.91 Turnovers 2.7 Fouls 24.6 points.

Awards that matter: 3-time NBA Champion. With Shaq.

I've said it before that Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan, mainly because of their style of play and how they operate on the court, but he's not even close to as good yet. Come back in five years at the bare minimum Jemele.

If you combined 80% of Kobe's scoring style with 20% of LeBron's along with his passing and rebounding then you'd have Michael Jordan.

TitleTown088
05-24-2007, 01:25 PM
Kobe Bryant is the Best NBA Player EVER!

Let me guess, you're 15-16?

Anyways, the two players are not even comparable. MJ played in the NBA when it was respectable, Kobe plays in the BS entertainmentwhore NBA of today.

sweetness34
05-24-2007, 01:30 PM
Let me guess, you're 15-16?

Anyways, the two players are not even comparable. MJ played in the NBA when it was respectable, Kobe plays in the BS entertainmentwhore NBA of today.

TT that just might be the POTW right there, well said.

Nitschke-Hawk
05-24-2007, 01:30 PM
Since I started typing my post I see a few things about the defense that each player faced. Yeah Jordan was guarded by less athletic players than Kobe. But I've heard several NBA people say that with today's rules and officiating Jordan would have averaged a 40 point season.

sweetness34
05-24-2007, 01:33 PM
Since I started typing my post I see a few things about the defense that each player faced. Yeah Jordan was guarded by less athletic players than Kobe. But I've heard several NBA people say that with today's rules and officiating Jordan would have averaged a 40 point season.

Um yea he would've. With the ticky tack fouls and the free throw shooting, MJ would've been at or ovre 40ppg. Put Kobe in MJ's era and his numbers go down IMO.

When MJ played, it was pretty much a consensus that he was the best player in the league. Flash forward to now and it's not even a consensus that Kobe is the best. In fact many people including myself think there are better players right now (Nash).

Scar
05-24-2007, 01:36 PM
Not to mention the players of MJ's era actually knew HOW to move their feet and play defense and didn't just rely on athleticism to try to make blocks and steals from way out of position.

bigbluedefense
05-24-2007, 01:37 PM
Someone forgot to send her the memo that Kobe doesn't have to deal with handchecking like Jordan did.


Defense was much tougher back then. What an idiot. Her arguments are half ass and ill informed.

dabears10
05-24-2007, 01:38 PM
April 20, 1986. Until anyone under 21 watches that game they should not be allowed to comment on this topic.

sweetness34
05-24-2007, 01:38 PM
Not to mention the players of MJ's era actually knew HOW to move their feet and play defense and didn't just rely on athleticism to try to make blocks and steals from way out of position.

Plus that style of play was much more physical. They actually allowed hand checking and physical play on defense. Now if you breath on someone it's a foul. What MJ did in his era was simply amazing. Kobe while a great player is not as good and will never be as good as MJ IMO.

Jughead10
05-24-2007, 01:38 PM
I think this can actually warrant the death penalty in the state of Illinois and North Carolina.

nobodyinparticular
05-24-2007, 01:40 PM
I ******* KNEW it would be Jemele Hill!

I have not read a single article from Jemele Hill that has been halfway readable much less enjoyable. I know journalism dropouts and high school freshman who could write more interesting articles.

Jughead10
05-24-2007, 01:41 PM
Since when did we start letting women read and write in this country. And to think they have the right to vote as well.

dabears10
05-24-2007, 01:42 PM
Since when did we start letting woman read and write in this country. And to think they have the right to vote as well.

I heard they are even infiltrating the workplace.

nobodyinparticular
05-24-2007, 01:43 PM
Plus that style of play was much more physical. They actually allowed hand checking and physical play on defense. Now if you breath on someone it's a foul. What MJ did in his era was simply amazing. Kobe while a great player is not as good and will never be as good as MJ IMO.

I think it's funny that we talk about "that era" as if it were the 60s and 70s of football or anywhere in the first half century of baseball when in reality, it was barely a decade ago that MJ was dominating basketball in "that era."

The sad thing is that MJ's era truly was a different game from what it is now. Basketball is not only pussyfooting around, but the lack of consistency is phenomenal. High school referees are far more consistent in their calls than NBA referees, and to be able to say that is absolutely terrible. But it's true.

nobodyinparticular
05-24-2007, 01:44 PM
Since when did we start letting women read and write in this country. And to think they have the right to vote as well.

Hear hear!

Jughead10
05-24-2007, 01:44 PM
I heard they are even infiltrating the workplace.

What is this world coming to.

dabears10
05-24-2007, 01:45 PM
I think it's funny that we talk about "that era" as if it were the 60s and 70s of football or anywhere in the first half century of baseball when in reality, it was barely a decade ago that MJ was dominating basketball in "that era."

The sad thing is that MJ's era truly was a different game from what it is now. Basketball is not only pussyfooting around, but the lack of consistency is phenomenal. High school referees are far more consistent in their calls than NBA referees, and to be able to say that is absolutely terrible. But it's true.

It was more than a decade ago. The real end of his career, 1996. today 2007. So, probably from 87-96 He was the best player.

Scar
05-24-2007, 01:45 PM
The NBA today looks more like a pickup game at the YMCA than it looks like the NBA of 10-20 years ago.

nobodyinparticular
05-24-2007, 01:45 PM
What is this world coming to.

And allowing them to drive? Women don't need driver's licenses! There is no freeway that goes from the kitchen to the laundry room.

bigbluedefense
05-24-2007, 01:46 PM
What is this world coming to.

Pretty soon theyre gonna stop cooking for us too!



Oh wait....

Nitschke-Hawk
05-24-2007, 01:46 PM
In MJ's best overall statistical season: 88-89, he averaged 8 Rebounds 8 Assists and 32.5 Points per game, with a whopping 53.8 FG%.

Kobe hasn't averaged over 6 assists, hasn't averaged over 7 rebounds, hasn't averaged over 47% on FG's, and has averaged over 32 points only one season.

MJ averaged over 32 points in 4 seasons and has a career FG% of 49.7 that Kobe hasn't even touched in a single year!

So not only does his career not come close, he hasn't even matched him in a season.

nobodyinparticular
05-24-2007, 01:46 PM
It was more than a decade ago. The real end of his career, 1996. today 2007. So, probably from 87-96 He was the best player.

Hence "barely a decade ago". By that meaning just a little over a decade.

Jughead10
05-24-2007, 01:47 PM
And allowing them to drive? Women don't need driver's licenses! There is no freeway that goes from the kitchen to the laundry room.

I hear ya. My old lady asked for a watch for her birthday. I said what for? There is a clock on the oven.

nobodyinparticular
05-24-2007, 01:47 PM
Pretty soon theyre gonna stop cooking for us too!



Oh wait....

Gentlemen, the real reason America is obese--the women have forgotten their place in the world. In the kitchen. Cooking me breakfast. And fixing up lunch. And preparing my dinner.

Which is exactly why their feet are so much smaller than men's feet. So that they can get closer to the stove.

bigbluedefense
05-24-2007, 01:47 PM
And allowing them to drive? Women don't need driver's licenses! There is no freeway that goes from the kitchen to the laundry room.

That sir, is goin in the sig Hahhahahahaha

+ rep

Jughead10
05-24-2007, 01:50 PM
I think it's funny that we talk about "that era" as if it were the 60s and 70s of football or anywhere in the first half century of baseball when in reality, it was barely a decade ago that MJ was dominating basketball in "that era."

The sad thing is that MJ's era truly was a different game from what it is now. Basketball is not only pussyfooting around, but the lack of consistency is phenomenal. High school referees are far more consistent in their calls than NBA referees, and to be able to say that is absolutely terrible. But it's true.

It truly is sad. As someone who used to enjoy the NBA a lot more I rarely ever watch it. If I watch 3 games a year its a lot. It is extremely watered down. And there are a ton of reasons. One in my mind that goes overlooked is the emergence of the European player. Sure the NBA wanted to expand its markets but at the same time they might have hurt the game in general. I love the game of basketball, thus my love for college basketball. I can't watch the NBA. It is a terrible product right now.

And I'm agreeing that MJ faced so much more competition. As Knicks fan I could see the Knicks teams that faced MJ's Bulls basically dominating every team in the NBA right now. And they wouldn't be the only ones.

dabears10
05-24-2007, 01:53 PM
And I'm agreeing that MJ faced so much more competition. As Knicks fan I could see the Knicks teams that faced MJ's Bulls basically dominating every team in the NBA right now. And they wouldn't be the only ones.

Like the Cavs. They had a really good team early 90's late 80's.

This is like comparing the Roman Empire to World War I imperial Germany.

bigbluedefense
05-24-2007, 02:06 PM
It truly is sad. As someone who used to enjoy the NBA a lot more I rarely ever watch it. If I watch 3 games a year its a lot. It is extremely watered down. And there are a ton of reasons. One in my mind that goes overlooked is the emergence of the European player. Sure the NBA wanted to expand its markets but at the same time they might have hurt the game in general. I love the game of basketball, thus my love for college basketball. I can't watch the NBA. It is a terrible product right now.

And I'm agreeing that MJ faced so much more competition. As Knicks fan I could see the Knicks teams that faced MJ's Bulls basically dominating every team in the NBA right now. And they wouldn't be the only ones.

Those Knicks teams would DESTROY any current NBA team. So would the Pacers, Bulls, and lots of other teams from back then. You hit it on the head, the NBA is very watered down these days.

P-L
05-24-2007, 02:08 PM
I started refuting all of her points, and then I decided not to waste my time. That article is filled with clear biases and not worth responding to.

Jughead10
05-24-2007, 02:08 PM
Not only am I hoping for Greg Oden to become a huge star, I'm also hoping for Durant to become a huge bust. Wake up some people. Try to get back to some real basketball. Although I might watch some of the Spurs/Pistons final. Duncan is a real basketball player.

nobodyinparticular
05-24-2007, 02:47 PM
I gave up on following NBA basketball religiously during the playoffs my sophomore year of high school. That would make it 4 years ago.

My main complaint, and it isn't something I complain about a lot because of what my dad taught me growing up, is the officiating in the game of basketball. It's not just that they are worse in babying these primadonnas than the NFL is with their WRs and QBs, and it's not that they give Michael Jordan treatment (in regards to fouls, which was very prevalent for MJ. Not to take anything away from him.) to all their favorite superstars, but just the overall lack of consistency from minute to minute, team to team, game to game.

You have people absolutely getting mugged and thrown down to the floor and there is not a whistle to be found and on the very next play you a guy breathes on the guy he's guarding and there are 3 or 4 whistles. Oftentimes having nothing to do with who is who or who is playing for whom, but just completely random. It's ridiculous. All the other stuff I mentioned in the previous paragraph is happening, but what I dislike the most is the inconsistency overall. If someone is consistently getting preference then you know how to play the game. If they consistently call the "he's breathing on me!" foul, then you know how to adjust your game. But if it's completely randumb (emphasis on dumb) luck and what kind of officiating your going to get at any given point, you have no way to combat it. It's like an umpire in baseball. If he is always giving the high strike then you know you have to swing at those high pitches. If he is always calling knee-high pitches balls, then you know you have to work up a little bit. But if the umpire is flipping a coin for a ball or a strike as it certainly can seem, then the game quickly becomes disinteresting and truly just pandemonium. The problem is that referees in NBA basketball are far too frequently going with the "flipping the coin" method to the point that it's throughout almost every game.



This is not to say that the actual game itself has been ruined by the way it is played, because I agree. I think that both the NBA and NFL have been ruined by being "too civilized" like Rocky in Rocky III. They continue to pussyfoot around and the fundamentals in both sports are being lost and it's ruining the fun and value of the sports. But both games can still be an exciting game if not for the referees determined to be coin flippers.

Moses
05-24-2007, 02:51 PM
Kobe Bryant vs. Michael Jordan 1 on 1...

Kobe wins. Does that make him a better player? Hard to say.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-24-2007, 02:55 PM
Kobe Bryant vs. Michael Jordan 1 on 1...

Kobe wins. Does that make him a better player? Hard to say.

I don't think so, because I think part of being a great player is making everybody around you better.

I do think that Kobe might have more talent than MJ ever had, but he's not a better PLAYER at this point.

gbpackers0065
05-24-2007, 02:58 PM
Hill is very very dumb, sometimes i think shes disagrees just to go against the norm

SubNoize
05-24-2007, 03:06 PM
Um yea he would've. With the ticky tack fouls and the free throw shooting, MJ would've been at or ovre 40ppg. Put Kobe in MJ's era and his numbers go down IMO.

When MJ played, it was pretty much a consensus that he was the best player in the league. Flash forward to now and it's not even a consensus that Kobe is the best. In fact many people including myself think there are better players right now (Nash).

If you think Nash is better than Kobe than you're insane!! I'm a suns fan and can say that. I hate Kobe with a passion, but I respect his game. Nash is a great offensive player and makes his team around him play well, but he disappears a lot in big games and plays mediocre D. Kobe can take over a game and shoulder it single handedly. I don't think Jordan would drop 40 a night nowadays either, he was great but again like I said his game is hyped up into his image sometimes.

Moses
05-24-2007, 03:06 PM
I don't think so, because I think part of being a great player is making everybody around you better.

I do think that Kobe might have more talent than MJ ever had, but he's not a better PLAYER at this point.

In terms of skillset, I think Kobe is the best player ever. His offensive arsenal is the best of all-time. His defence is very good.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-24-2007, 03:20 PM
In terms of skillset, I think Kobe is the best player ever. His offensive arsenal is the best of all-time. His defence is very good.

I think that whenever you have two all-around great players like Kobe and MJ and it borders on being a tough call, you almost have to look at accomplishments, and Jordan accomplished more than Kobe has at this point. Sure, Jordan had Pippen during all of his title wins, but Jordan was, without question, the best player on his team. Kobe might not have even been the best player on the Lakers when he won his rings. If Kobe is going to win another championship, he'll need better talent around him, but he's got to win one without one of the most dominant players in NBA history before I crown his ass.

Moses
05-24-2007, 03:22 PM
I think that whenever you have two all-around great players like Kobe and MJ and it borders on being a tough call, you almost have to look at accomplishments, and Jordan accomplished more than Kobe has at this point. Sure, Jordan had Pippen during all of his title wins, but Jordan was, without question, the best player on his team. Kobe might not have even been the best player on the Lakers when he won his rings. If Kobe is going to win another championship, he'll need better talent around him, but he's got to win one without one of the most dominant players in NBA history before I crown his ass.

Right, but Jordan had a much better overall cast than Kobe has. When the Lakers had Kobe and Shaq, they were unstoppable. Since Shaq left, there's been Kobe and a bunch of nobodies. Kobe is the type of player who needs another great player he can depend on.

TPFKA#1SaintsFan
05-24-2007, 03:26 PM
Right, but Jordan had a much better overall cast than Kobe has. When the Lakers had Kobe and Shaq, they were unstoppable. Since Shaq left, there's been Kobe and a bunch of nobodies. Kobe is the type of player who needs another great player he can depend on.

I think having another GREAT player on board to win another championship would, if anything, hurt Kobe's chances of being considered better than MJ. Obviously he needs more than the mediocre talent surrounding him now, but he's got to be the undisputed best player on his team if and when he wins another championship. For instance, he needs someone more along the lines of a Carlos Boozer than a Kevin Garnett as his sidekick. I really don't think Scottie Pippen was a GREAT player, he was a very good player who played his role great.

Moses
05-24-2007, 03:28 PM
I think having another GREAT player on board to win another championship would, if anything, hurt Kobe's chances of being considered better than MJ. Obviously he needs more than the mediocre talent surrounding him now, but he's got to be the undisputed best player on his team if and when he wins another championship. For instance, he needs someone more along the lines of a Carlos Boozer than a Kevin Garnett as his sidekick. I really don't think Scottie Pippen was a GREAT player, he was a very good player who played his role great.

He had more than Pippen on a lot of those teams though. Plus, Pippen is pretty underrated and he's listed as one of the 50 GOATs I believe.

Splat
05-24-2007, 03:29 PM
http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6885/jordanrings00nike1ey1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

End of message.

Moses
05-24-2007, 03:31 PM
Kobe's not far behind.

http://webpages.csus.edu/~fl22/kobe%20bryant.bmp

Splat
05-24-2007, 03:38 PM
3 rings is pretty far behind Jordan was the best all around player of all time and it ain't close.

Moses
05-24-2007, 03:38 PM
3 rings is pretty far behind Jordan was the best all around player of all time and it ain't close.

Nice argument.

Splat
05-24-2007, 03:41 PM
What else needs to be said that has not all ready been said every one and there mother knows he was the best the only people that disagree are LA homers or just Jordan haters.

Moses
05-24-2007, 03:44 PM
What else needs to be said that has not all ready been said every one and there mother knows he was the best the only people that disagree are LA homers or just Jordan haters.

I already said that I think if Kobe and Jordan play 1 on 1, Kobe wins. Kobe has the better skillset. He has the best offensive arsenal of all-time. He's a very good defender.

Phrost
05-24-2007, 03:46 PM
I actually got into a big argument with my brother recently about this subject (me jordon) and couldn't believe someone who actually saw Jordon play his whole career could even think Kobe is better.

Jordon is the greatest player i have ever seen in any sport.

Tiger Woods and Federer > MJ when its all said and done IMO!

Ewing
05-24-2007, 03:49 PM
Let me know when Kobe can win a championship without one of the top five centers of all-time until then this debate is completly idiotic and anybody who actually thinks Kobe is better has no concept of what basketball is. Nobody comes close to MJ, not even Wilt.

soybean
05-24-2007, 03:51 PM
Let me know when Kobe can win a championship without one of the top five centers of all-time until then this debate is completly idiotic and anybody who actually thinks Kobe is better has no concept of what basketball is. Nobody comes close to MJ, not even Wilt.

would shaq have won 3 championships without kobe?

EDIT: my answer, no. the last two championships there were only 2 players on the lakers that averaged more than 10 ppg.

Moses
05-24-2007, 03:52 PM
would shaq have won 3 championships without kobe?

Would Jordan have won without Pippen or the rest of his supporting cast. Has there ever been a player so dominant that they created a dynasty single-handedly?

SubNoize
05-24-2007, 03:53 PM
If rings is what matters then nobody can touch this!!!

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Bill-Russell---Photofile-Photograph-C10100476.jpeg

Ewing
05-24-2007, 03:58 PM
would shaq have won 3 championships without kobe?

EDIT: my answer, no. the last two championships there were only 2 players on the lakers that averaged more than 10 ppg.

He already won one without Kobe in Miami. What's your point?

Moses
05-24-2007, 03:59 PM
He already won one without Kobe in Miami. What's your point?

Right, when he had Dwayne Wade and a whole slew of productive players on the team. Shaq was far from the catalyst for that championship.

Ewing
05-24-2007, 04:03 PM
Right, when he had Dwayne Wade and a whole slew of productive players on the team. Shaq was far from the catalyst for that championship.

Regardless, he still asked the question. My point is this; Shaq is far and away a better player than Pippen and Kobe hasn't done jack in the postseaon since he left the Lakers. Would Jordan have won six championships without Pippen? Probably not but he would have at least made it out of the first round in the playoffs.

Splat
05-24-2007, 04:08 PM
I already said that I think if Kobe and Jordan play 1 on 1, Kobe wins. Kobe has the better skillset. He has the best offensive arsenal of all-time. He's a very good defender.

If they played right now sure KB would beat him Jordan is in his mid 40's I would take Jordan in his prime over any one every day of the week. The guy could play D also people seem to forget that and he would make players around him better some thing KB never has done.

Phrost
05-24-2007, 04:10 PM
Jordan had Pippen.
Kobe had Shaq.

Shaq>Pippen

and its not even close.

Moses
05-24-2007, 04:10 PM
Regardless, he still asked the question. My point is this; Shaq is far and away a better player than Pippen and Kobe hasn't done jack in the postseaon since he left the Lakers. Would Jordan have won six championships without Pippen? Probably not but he would have at least made it out of the first round in the playoffs.

Kobe could be on the worst team in basketball right now. He's still managing to make them competetive which in itself is pretty impressive. Jordan was always in a situation where his team was already very good, he just took them over the top.

Moses
05-24-2007, 04:11 PM
If they played right now sure KB would beat him Jordan is in his mid 40's I would take Jordan in his prime over any one every day of the week. The guy could play D also people seem to forget that and he would make players around him better some thing KB never has done.

I'm talking about in their primes. Bryant's offensive arsenal is a lot better than Jordan's. Both are great defenders, but I would give the edge to Jordan.

Phrost
05-24-2007, 04:13 PM
Kobe could be on the worst team in basketball right now. He's still managing to make them competetive which in itself is pretty impressive. Jordan was always in a situation where his team was already very good, he just took them over the top.

Yeah taking 35-40+ shots a game keeps em competitive. Don't try that bull. He may draw double and triple teams and have an unbelievable offensive arsenal but they are nowhere close to being the worst team in the NBA.

Brodeur
05-24-2007, 04:14 PM
Jordan had Pippen.
Kobe had Shaq.

Shaq>Pippen

and its not even close.

Except Jordan had Pippen for nearly his entire career. Kobe's in the middle of his prime, and doesn't have Shaq by his side, so the argument doesn't work.

Moses
05-24-2007, 04:14 PM
Yeah taking 35-40+ shots a game keeps em competitive. Don't try that bull. He may draw double and triple teams and have an unbelievable offensive arsenal but they are nowhere close to being the worst team in the NBA.

Without Kobe on them they are. If he's not on the Lakers, they'd easily be one of the worst five teams in the league.

Phrost
05-24-2007, 04:16 PM
Without Kobe on them they are. If he's not on the Lakers, they'd easily be one of the worst five teams in the league.

Yeah, but he is on the team. Whats your point? His play just shows you that its a team sport. One player cannot carry an entire team in the post season. Maybe in the regular season, ask LeBron about that.

Moses
05-24-2007, 04:17 PM
Yeah, but he is on the team. Whats your point? His play just shows you that its a team sport. One player cannot carry an entire team in the post season. Maybe in the regular season, ask LeBron about that.

Huh? I'm arguing that Kobe's team is a lot worse than any that Jordan played on. Put Kobe on the Bulls back then and I wouldn't be surprised if he had the same amount of rings.

slightlyaraiderfan
05-24-2007, 04:19 PM
Yeah taking 35-40+ shots a game keeps em competitive. Don't try that bull. He may draw double and triple teams and have an unbelievable offensive arsenal but they are nowhere close to being the worst team in the NBA.
He said "one of the worst" He has to take 35 shots a night for us to even have a chance at winning a game. Especially during the end of the season when Odom was hurt, we had absolutely nothing on offense besides Kobe.

Ewing
05-24-2007, 04:20 PM
Kobe could be on the worst team in basketball right now. He's still managing to make them competetive which in itself is pretty impressive. Jordan was always in a situation where his team was already very good, he just took them over the top.

Quick question; if you had to take one player for one game in the playoffs who would it be? If you answered Kobe Bryant, you have no concept of basketball. Thanks for playing and try again later.

Phrost
05-24-2007, 04:20 PM
He said "one of the worst" He has to take 35 shots a night for us to even have a chance at winning a game. Especially during the end of the season when Odom was hurt, we had absolutely nothing on offense besides Kobe.

As I have said before, it may work in the RS but come playoff time, not gonna work.

Moses
05-24-2007, 04:21 PM
Quick question; if you had to take one player for one game in the playoffs who would it be? If you answered Kobe Bryant, you have no concept of basketball. Thanks for playing and try again later.

Hard to say, depends on who is already on my team. I think it's very close, unlike the people here who think it's "not even close".

slightlyaraiderfan
05-24-2007, 04:22 PM
As I have said before, it may work in the RS but come playoff time, not gonna work.
umm yeah. Thats exactly why the Lakers got bounced in the 1st round, double-triple team Kobe and you'll beat the Lakers...it's that simple.

VY10
05-24-2007, 04:26 PM
Just because Kobe is a one man team, does not mean he is better. MJ had a supporting cast thats why the Bulls were so good and thats why he didn't have to throw down 50 points every night. MJ>Kobe.

Phrost
05-24-2007, 04:26 PM
umm yeah. Thats exactly why the Lakers got bounced in the 1st round, double-triple team Kobe and you'll beat the Lakers...it's that simple.

That also displays his inability to distribute the ball correctly.
:eek:

slightlyaraiderfan
05-24-2007, 04:28 PM
That also displays his inability to distribute the ball correctly.
:eek:
...or his teammates are crap and can't make a damn basket.

Ewing
05-24-2007, 04:29 PM
Hard to say, depends on who is already on my team. I think it's very close, unlike the people here who think it's "not even close".

Go look at the plays and preformances that MJ has put on the postseason and then go and look up the plays and preformances Kobe has put up. It's not even ****ing close.

soybean
05-24-2007, 04:31 PM
it's not really fair to say that jordan is better than kobe because kobe had shaq. how is that his fault? would duncan have won without robinson or parker or ginobli? would the pistons have won without... well... any of their starting five?

what if jordan had shaq would his titles be tainted too because shaq is one of the GOAT?

D-Unit
05-24-2007, 04:32 PM
I agree. Kobe > MJ. On the court and off the court.

soybean
05-24-2007, 04:32 PM
...or his teammates are crap and can't make a damn basket.

which would then in turn explain why his assists are so low.

nobodyinparticular
05-24-2007, 04:48 PM
I wonder how Kobe would do on the diamond...

And to answer someone's rhetorical question, I would take Jordan over Kobe in a heartbeat. But that might only be because of a faulty perception of his ability over Kobe.

As for anything else, I really look at the shooting percentage (whether it's justified or not is for debate) and see that Jordan had quite an edge on Kobe--which backs up my perception of Kobe missing more shots than Jordan. For me, my two knocks on Kobe are his misses and his lack of ability to really bring up the talent around him. That's just how I feel. A great basketball player makes sure the team does well, a great shooter makes sure he does well. MJ, for some of the malign he had to deal with was much more of a great basketball player than Kobe appears to be.

What we are seeing with a few select players/teams is an anti-synergistic effect, where the sum of the individual parts is greater than the sum of the total. Players who are great individual players but the team just doesn't do well. I see Kobe fitting into this a little bit.

Moses
05-24-2007, 04:49 PM
I wonder how Kobe would do on the diamond...

He couldn't do much worse than Jordan. ;)

Sniper
05-24-2007, 04:51 PM
Come on this is ridiculous. Jordan is the greatest player ever, bar none. I do think Kobe is close to Jordan though, and has many of the same traits Jordan did. I feel bad for Kobe though, I mean come on Smush Parker, a guy who should be a backup PG in the D League is his starting PG. Lamar Odom was playing on, what, 1/4 of his body the past few seasons. Kwame Brown, well, that's another story for a different day.

On the other hand, let me know when Kobe puts up 38 points with a really bad flu in the Finals and we'll talk. Jordan is the GOAT, period. end of story

tEk
05-24-2007, 04:54 PM
kobe just needs to regrow the afro and the lakers will be dominant again. the afro contains mystical powers. i can't believe i am the only one who noticed this.

Addict
05-24-2007, 04:54 PM
I agree. Kobe > MJ. On the court and off the court.

http://www.dsfanboy.com/media/2006/02/Sarcasm.jpg

bantx
05-24-2007, 04:58 PM
yall need to stop saying who had who, you are comparing kobe and mj, not kobe and his team mates or mj and who he had, yeah its hard to compare because mj didnt have to score 50 points a game to win a game, but you think about mj in the same situation he'd probably put up 50+, but as of right now mj is still better, kobe might be better then him if he is still going at the rate he's going right now.

iowatreat54
05-24-2007, 05:01 PM
Let me guess, you're 15-16?

Anyways, the two players are not even comparable. MJ played in the NBA when it was respectable, Kobe plays in the BS entertainmentwhore NBA of today.

great comment...sig worthy

Phrost
05-24-2007, 05:03 PM
yall need to stop saying who had who, you are comparing kobe and mj, not kobe and his team mates or mj and who he had, yeah its hard to compare because mj didnt have to score 50 points a game to win a game, but you think about mj in the same situation he'd probably put up 50+, but as of right now mj is still better, kobe might be better then him if he is still going at the rate he's going right now.

Defender- Jordan
Shooter- Kobe
Passer- Jordan
Rebounder- Jordan
Clutch- Jordan
In traffic- ?

blah blah blah

dabears10
05-24-2007, 05:03 PM
You like the 1 v1 argument but that has not all to do with basketball. Basketball is 5 v 5. I used this before, but if I had a Kobe in his prime and Jordan in his prime on the same team, I'd start Jordan every time.

You say Kobe has the greatest arsenal of all time, but does he have that jordan did not. Jordan has a superior post game, a better knack of making space for his shots and could drive better than anyone in the history in the NBA. I think Kobe has only one edge, and that's 3 point shooting.

Whenever I watch kobe he puts up alot of contested shots, while when I watched Jordan he created the space to get off a much better shot.

nobodyinparticular
05-24-2007, 05:04 PM
Kobe Bryant is the Best NBA Player EVER!

I can't tell if that was sarcasm or an honest opinion.

bantx
05-24-2007, 05:05 PM
You like the 1 v1 argument but that has not all to do with basketball. Basketball is 5 v 5. I used this before, but if I had a Kobe in his prime and Jordan in his prime on the same team, I'd start Jordan every time.

You say Kobe has the greatest arsenal of all time, but does he have that jordan did not. Jordan has a superior post game, a better knack of making space for his shots and could drive better than anyone in the history in the NBA. I think Kobe has only one edge, and that's 3 point shooting.

Whenever I watch kobe he puts up alot of contested shots, while when I watched Jordan he created the space to get off a much better shot.

you forgot kobe's baseline, he loves the baseline. i hate how no one can stop it.

nobodyinparticular
05-24-2007, 05:07 PM
For me, my two knocks on Kobe are his misses and his lack of ability to really bring up the talent around him. That's just how I feel. A great basketball player makes sure the team does well, a great shooter makes sure he does well. MJ, for some of the malign he had to deal with was much more of a great basketball player than Kobe appears to be.

What we are seeing with a few select players/teams is an anti-synergistic effect, where the sum of the individual parts is greater than the sum of the total. Players who are great individual players but the team just doesn't do well. I see Kobe fitting into this a little bit.

You like the 1 v1 argument but that has not all to do with basketball. Basketball is 5 v 5. I used this before, but if I had a Kobe in his prime and Jordan in his prime on the same team, I'd start Jordan every time.

Is that kind of what you are talking about?

Moses
05-24-2007, 05:18 PM
You like the 1 v1 argument but that has not all to do with basketball. Basketball is 5 v 5. I used this before, but if I had a Kobe in his prime and Jordan in his prime on the same team, I'd start Jordan every time.

You say Kobe has the greatest arsenal of all time, but does he have that jordan did not. Jordan has a superior post game, a better knack of making space for his shots and could drive better than anyone in the history in the NBA. I think Kobe has only one edge, and that's 3 point shooting.

Whenever I watch kobe he puts up alot of contested shots, while when I watched Jordan he created the space to get off a much better shot.

I can't see how you can make the argument that Jordan is better offensively than Bryant. Bryant can do it all. He can score from anywhere in any way. Jordan was a great offensive player, but he wasn't as versatile nor as dominant as Kobe is offensively.

sweetness34
05-24-2007, 05:27 PM
I'm talking about in their primes. Bryant's offensive arsenal is a lot better than Jordan's. Both are great defenders, but I would give the edge to Jordan.

You are flat out of your mind. Bryant's offensive arsenal is a lot better than Jordan's? I really like most of your posts Moses but this was is completely insane.

Moses
05-24-2007, 05:28 PM
You are flat out of your mind. Bryant's offensive arsenal is a lot better than Jordan's? I really like most of your posts Moses but this was is completely insane.

That's how I feel. I feel Kobe Bryant has the best offensive arsenal of all-time. He can score from anywhere on the court in any way. He can literally do everything, and do it well.

sweetness34
05-24-2007, 05:30 PM
I can't see how you can make the argument that Jordan is better offensively than Bryant. Bryant can do it all. He can score from anywhere in any way. Jordan was a great offensive player, but he wasn't as versatile nor as dominant as Kobe is offensively.

Not as versatile or as dominant? Wow Moses, you are completely off the freaking grid my friend. Michael averaged 30ppg over his career in a league that was much harder to play and score than it is now. Michael has a higher field goal percentage by about 5 points.

The only area where Kobe beats Michael is from the 3 point line, but MJ vastly improved that area of his game over his career.

princefielder28
05-24-2007, 05:32 PM
That woman should be ashamed!

dabears10
05-24-2007, 05:33 PM
That's how I feel. I feel Kobe Bryant has the best offensive arsenal of all-time. He can score from anywhere on the court in any way. He can literally do everything, and do it well.

What can Kobe do that Jordan can't?

Moses
05-24-2007, 05:34 PM
Not as versatile or as dominant? Wow Moses, you are completely off the freaking grid my friend. Michael averaged 30ppg over his career in a league that was much harder to play and score than it is now. Michael has a higher field goal percentage by about 5 points.

The only area where Kobe beats Michael is from the 3 point line, but MJ vastly improved that area of his game over his career.

Watching the two play, I feel Kobe was a lot more versatile. He is a better shooter from anywhere on the floor than Jordan, his drives are as good, his post game is a lot different from a stylistic standpoint but I think he could be even harder to stop from there. I also think Kobe gets a lot more defensive attention than Jordan does because Kobe doesn't have the guys to dish off to.

tEk
05-24-2007, 05:35 PM
well when kobe retires then come back plays well, then reiters and comes back and sucks it up. we can compare. damn let the guy finish his career. by that time mj will be out of our minds anyways. you know us humans. most have already forgotten VaTech.

tEk
05-24-2007, 05:35 PM
What can Kobe do that Jordan can't? get away with rape?:eek:

Moses
05-24-2007, 05:35 PM
What can Kobe do that Jordan can't?

Better shooter from everywhere on the court...better ball handler...more versatility in his drives and moves...

Those are a few things off the top of my head.

sweetness34
05-24-2007, 05:36 PM
If you think Nash is better than Kobe than you're insane!! I'm a suns fan and can say that. I hate Kobe with a passion, but I respect his game. Nash is a great offensive player and makes his team around him play well, but he disappears a lot in big games and plays mediocre D. Kobe can take over a game and shoulder it single handedly. I don't think Jordan would drop 40 a night nowadays either, he was great but again like I said his game is hyped up into his image sometimes.

In his prime, I think Jordan would. With all the ticky tack crap they call, he wouldn't been at the line a ton. He averaged 8 free throws a game, and that was back in the physical days of basketball. With the way he played and the way he drove to the basket, his free throw numbers would've sky rocketed.

dabears10
05-24-2007, 05:40 PM
Better shooter from everywhere on the court...better ball handler...more versatility in his drives and moves...

Those are a few things off the top of my head.

How is he a better shooter with a worse FG%?

IMO, he is not close to the ball handler MJ was and MJ was more diverse in his drives to the basket.

MJ has better body control in the air which makes him more versatile.

sweetness34
05-24-2007, 05:41 PM
Watching the two play, I feel Kobe was a lot more versatile. He is a better shooter from anywhere on the floor than Jordan, his drives are as good, his post game is a lot different from a stylistic standpoint but I think he could be even harder to stop from there. I also think Kobe gets a lot more defensive attention than Jordan does because Kobe doesn't have the guys to dish off to.

I did watch the two play, I'm a Bulls fan Moses. I watched the 6 championships. Kobe is extremelly talented, but to say Jordan doesn't have near as good of an offensive arsenal is absolutely ridiculous. You don't put up 30ppg over your career because you're a one trick pony. Kobe has more range than Michael, I'll give you that.

Edit: In 1987 I believe Michael put up around 37 points per game. This 37.1 average was the year before he landed Scotty and Horace. A total that in this day and age of increased scoring is unheard of for a player.

princefielder28
05-24-2007, 05:42 PM
That's how I feel. I feel Kobe Bryant has the best offensive arsenal of all-time. He can score from anywhere on the court in any way. He can literally do everything, and do it well.

Michael Jordan career stats: 30.1 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 5.3 APG, 2.35 SPG, 49.7% FG, 83.5% FT, 32.7% 3PT

Kobe Bryant career stats: 24.6 PPG, 5.2 RPG, 4.5 APG, 1.5 SPG, 45.3% FG, 83.8% FT, 33.7% 3PT

Boy the stats don't lie and either does the fact that Michael has 6 rings and Kobe has I think 3 and Michael never had the luxury of playing with a dominate big man like Shaq

Moses
05-24-2007, 05:43 PM
I did watch the two play, I'm a Bulls fan Moses. I watched the 6 championships. Kobe is extremelly talented, but to say Jordan doesn't have near as good of an offensive arsenal is absolutely ridiculous. You don't put up 30ppg over your career because you're a one trick pony. Kobe has more range than Michael, I'll give you that.

If I said that he had a much better offensive arsenal, I'll retract that. He does have a better offensive arsenal, in my opinion. He is a big-time threat from anywhere, whether he is shooting, driving, posting up, pulling up, etc.

slightlyaraiderfan
05-24-2007, 05:44 PM
Not as versatile or as dominant? Wow Moses, you are completely off the freaking grid my friend. Michael averaged 30ppg over his career in a league that was much harder to play and score than it is now. Michael has a higher field goal percentage by about 5 points.

The only area where Kobe beats Michael is from the 3 point line, but MJ vastly improved that area of his game over his career.
I don't know if it's easier to score nowadays. Players like Kobe and Lebron have to face zone defenses, which makes it much harder for those types of players to create. It depends on what you are surrounded by in todays game.

Moses
05-24-2007, 05:46 PM
How is he a better shooter with a worse FG%?

IMO, he is not close to the ball handler MJ was and MJ was more diverse in his drives to the basket.

MJ has better body control in the air which makes him more versatile.

Stats are often misleading, especially when players play in different eras. I think you would be hardpressed to find people that think Jordan is a better shooter than Kobe.

Both Jordan and Kobe are great ballhandlers, but I think Kobe has the edge here.

As an athlete, I also think Kobe is superior. Jordan looked great for his era and is obviously an all-time great player from an athletic standpoint, but Kobe is just a little bit better. He's quicker, bigger, gets off the ground a bit faster, and has similar explosiveness.

princefielder28
05-24-2007, 05:48 PM
I don't know if it's easier to score nowadays. Players like Kobe and Lebron have to face zone defenses, which makes it much harder for those types of players to create. It depends on what you are surrounded by in todays game.

Teams don't play defense like they use to. Teams lock on Kobe and players like Kobe but it's the up in your face defense that Jordan faced in his days. For most teams the game is about offense and defense is secondary.

princefielder28
05-24-2007, 05:56 PM
Moses you should make a poll and then you can see what everyone thinks. I guarantee Kobe's votes would look like Bush's approval rating.

Moses
05-24-2007, 05:59 PM
Just for fun, here are some comparison videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWsfz5kMT5I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymsZvcLg-O4

Smokey Joe
05-24-2007, 05:59 PM
She is the exact reason why I am sexist against female sports writers.

SubNoize
05-24-2007, 06:01 PM
Yeah a poll in which you're putting MJ- a freakin hyped up icon (which is why people think he's the GOAT, when it's obviously Russell) against a guy who people have a dislike for in Kobe, MJ is a fan fav. and he will obviously win, but it doesn't mean that he's really better. again Kobe has a good 10 years possibly left in the league and if he can get a supporting cast, could get 3 more rings and post up better ppg career avg.

Phrost
05-24-2007, 06:03 PM
Yeah a poll in which you're putting MJ- a freakin hyped up icon (which is why people think he's the GOAT, when it's obviously Russell) against a guy who people have a dislike for in Kobe, MJ is a fan fav. and he will obviously win, but it doesn't mean that he's really better. again Kobe has a good 10 years possibly left in the league and if he can get a supporting cast, could get 3 more rings and post up better ppg career avg.

I was gonna stay out of this..but TEN YEARS!?! No way in hell. With his knees and the fact that he came into the league at age 18 I don't see how its possible.

SubNoize
05-24-2007, 06:12 PM
how is it possible??? He's 28 or 29 years old and is in better condition than half the players in the league still... He hasn't slowed much at all, he can easily go 10 more years...

Phrost
05-24-2007, 06:13 PM
how is it possible??? He's 28 or 29 years old and is in better condition than half the players in the league still... He hasn't slowed much at all, he can easily go 10 more years...

You still can't answer the fact that his knee(s) are done?

bantx
05-24-2007, 06:14 PM
eh 10, even if he goes ten, he won't be as productive.

SubNoize
05-24-2007, 06:14 PM
how are they done??? He plays just fine on them now, barring a crippling injury they seem fine to me.

soybean
05-24-2007, 06:16 PM
You still can't answer the fact that his knee(s) are done?

why are his knees done?

Phrost
05-24-2007, 06:18 PM
how are they done??? He plays just fine on them now, barring a crippling injury they seem fine to me.

Have you noticed that he rarely takes it to the hole? Especially if there will be contact. Its a liability and many other players such as LeBron will experience injuries such as knee injuries which will force them to shoot more(ex: McGrady) instead of going through the lane. Fortunately for Kobe his shot is just too good.

sweetness34
05-24-2007, 06:24 PM
Like I said earlier, before Scottie and Horace came to town Michael was putting up about 35ppg (not counting his 2nd year where he was injured) in an era that was harder to score than it is now.

For those who don't believe that it was harder to score 10-20 years ago, the NBA has said that the new rules have been put in place to INCREASE scoring and points. That's why free throw numbers are up and foul numbers are up.

sweetness34
05-24-2007, 06:25 PM
Have you noticed that he rarely takes it to the hole? Especially if there will be contact. Its a liability and many other players such as LeBron will experience injuries such as knee injuries which will force them to shoot more(ex: McGrady) instead of going through the lane. Fortunately for Kobe his shot is just too good.

I assume you're talking about Kobe. His knees are fine.

SubNoize
05-24-2007, 06:26 PM
Ok, that doesn't show me they're done, it tells me that Kobe is smart enough to avoid contact to prolong his career, and it's not like he needs to drive inside the guy can score from anywhere on the floor w/ ease. you just argued towards my point, if he's avoiding contact he's prolonging his career.

-black
05-24-2007, 06:58 PM
Kobe was a pretty decent ball handler;)

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/turkblack/Kobedribble.gif

doingthisinsteadofwork
05-24-2007, 07:03 PM
Id take a couple of guys over Kobe right now.Hes a great player but not a great team player.

Psycho
05-24-2007, 07:04 PM
This is ridiculous. There is no way that Kobe is better than MJ. You might have an argument when Kobe's career ends, but even then I don't think Kobe will ever surpass Jordan.

princefielder28
05-24-2007, 07:06 PM
Like I said earlier, before Scottie and Horace came to town Michael was putting up about 35ppg (not counting his 2nd year where he was injured) in an era that was harder to score than it is now.

For those who don't believe that it was harder to score 10-20 years ago, the NBA has said that the new rules have been put in place to INCREASE scoring and points. That's why free throw numbers are up and foul numbers are up.

Thank you Sweetness!

soybean
05-24-2007, 07:17 PM
Kobe was a pretty decent ball handler;)

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q243/turkblack/Kobedribble.gif

how bout this?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dMnlAvYxa4o

-black
05-24-2007, 07:19 PM
someone post MJ dunking on Ewing...lol

sweetness34
05-24-2007, 07:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmxJvWW5Ksw

:D

SubNoize
05-24-2007, 07:29 PM
It looks like he carried the ball on that play, maybe it's the slow mo??

P-L
05-24-2007, 09:22 PM
My biggest problem with the article is that she says Kobe gets the Alex Rodriguez treatment. That's a bunch of bull. Laker fans don't boo him or call him a choker when the Lakers lose or he has a bad game. In fact, I don't think I've seen another player that has as many homers hyping him up that are fans of other teams. I live by a lot of Pistons fans, and a fair amount of them think he is the second coming of Christ. Michael Jordan is the best player to ever play the game in my opinion. I really don't think that if Kobe's career ended today that he'd be considered a top five player of all-time.

Nitschke-Hawk
05-24-2007, 10:17 PM
I think Moses has a point that Kobe can score from anywhere on the court. Still not close to Mike though, even if the scoring ability is equal he can't touch Jordan in all around game. If Kobe had a good point guard next to him I think he'd be doing even better right now. They need someone to stretch the defense off of him consistently. I think he can take the Lakers far. They're a player or two plus a good run in the playoffs away from a title shot. When you've got a top 3 wing player and Phil Jackson you should be good every year.

YAYareaRB
05-25-2007, 12:59 AM
It's things like this that make people hate Kobe. I think Kobe and Jordan are in the same boat as far as talent and ability go. The only thing Jordan has over Kobe is rings. I also see everyone stating he's not as good as Jordan, but not providing any evidence to back up the statement. An empty statement in an argument is pretty pointless.

D-Unit
05-25-2007, 01:07 AM
Kobe wins the battle off the court. Yeah, he cheated and got caught... Well he apologized and is back with his wife.

MJ is a gambling addicted, 2 faced, divorced womanizer with absolutely no control.

sweetness34
05-25-2007, 02:17 AM
It's things like this that make people hate Kobe. I think Kobe and Jordan are in the same boat as far as talent and ability go. The only thing Jordan has over Kobe is rings. I also see everyone stating he's not as good as Jordan, but not providing any evidence to back up the statement. An empty statement in an argument is pretty pointless.

Um have you read any of this thread? What part of the stats do you not understand here? Better field goal percentage, more ppg, more rpg, more spg, more apg, more MVP's, more rings, MJ's numbers go up in the playoffs while Kobe's tend to go down statistically, 5 more All-NBA Defensive team awards....I mean what else do you want us to put out there for you?

And it's already been noted that today's game has inflated scoring.

Moses
05-25-2007, 02:24 AM
Um have you read any of this thread? What part of the stats do you not understand here? Better field goal percentage, more ppg, more rpg, more spg, more apg, more MVP's, more rings, MJ's numbers go up in the playoffs while Kobe's tend to go down statistically, 5 more All-NBA Defensive team awards....I mean what else do you want us to put out there for you?

And it's already been noted that today's game has inflated scoring.

Pointless to compare statistics across eras in my opinion. You can make the argument now that defences are better, players are more athletic, and the gap between a superstar and average player has narrowed.

sweetness34
05-25-2007, 02:32 AM
Pointless to compare statistics across eras in my opinion. You can make the argument now that defences are better, players are more athletic, and the gap between a superstar and average player has narrowed.

Yea you can make an argument, but you can statiscally point out that fouls have increased, free throws have increased, and scoring has gone up. It is easier to get points now adays than it was 10-20 years ago because you can get to the line a lot more and a lot easier.

That was the NBA's goal in these new rules, to create more scoring. And btw, defenses are not better. If anythin they're worse especially with the emphasis placed on offense now adays in the NBA.

You have your opinion and I have mine. And up to right now Kobe has not been better than Michael, period. That's just how I see it.

niel89
05-25-2007, 04:00 AM
Kobe wins the battle off the court. Yeah, he cheated and got caught... Well he apologized and is back with his wife.

MJ is a gambling addicted, 2 faced, divorced womanizer with absolutely no control.

but he did this also

http://www.defensetech.org/images/Space%20Jam.jpg

niel89
05-25-2007, 04:03 AM
Just for fun, here are some comparison videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWsfz5kMT5I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymsZvcLg-O4

here is some list of facts from that second youtube link, also jordan looks flat out insane in those videos.

dont know where these are really from so take them with a grain of salt.

1) Average points per game (30.1 to 24.6)
2) Assists per game (MJ 5.3 to Kobe 4.6)
3) Rebounds per game (MJ 6.2 to Kobe 5.2)
4) Steals per game (MJ: 2.3, Kobe: 1.5), blocks per game
5) FG% (MJ: .497, Kobe: .453)
6) MJ has a higher 3 PT% in the playoffs
7) Scoring titles: MJ 10 (7 in a row), Kobe: 2
8) MJ won Defensive player of the year, Kobe never close
9) MVPs: MJ--5, Kobe--0(!!!!)
10) Finals MVPs: MJ--6, Kobe--0(!!!)
11) Player rating on espn: MJ--48.37 average, 7 years above 50, top year 58; Kobe--37.44 average, 0(!!!) years above 50, top year 49
12) Years making over 1000 FGs: MJ--3, Kobe--0
13) Years shooting above 50%: MJ--6, Kobe--0
14) Years averaging at least 6 rebs, 6 ass per game: MJ--3, Kobe--0
15) Top rebound, assist year: MJ--8, 8, Kobe: 6.9, 5.9
16) Top ppg year: MJ--37.1, Kobe: 35.4
17) Years averaging at least 30 ppg: MJ--8, Kobe--3
18) Consecutive years averaging at least 30 ppg: MJ--7, Kobe--2
19) Most steals per game in a year: MJ--3.2, Kobe--2.2
20) Top blocks per game in a year: MJ--1.6, Kobe--1
21) Turnover per game career: MJ: 2.7, Kobe 2.9
22) Top 3 PT% years: MJ--.427 Kobe--.383
23) Years over 200 steals: MJ--6, Kobe--0
24) Years over 100 blocks: MJ--2, Kobe--0
25) MJ, first player ever with over 200 steals, 100 blocks in a seson, did it twice. Kobe never close.
26) Offensive rebounds per game, career: MJ--1.6, Kobe--1.2
27) Assists per turnover: MJ--1.9, Kobe--1.6
28) Espn shooting efficiency: MJ--.509, Kobe--.484
29) MJ led the league in steals 3 times, Kobe never once came close. MJ is 2nd all time in steals

Nitschke-Hawk
05-25-2007, 10:30 AM
^^^If the argument wasn't done already that pretty much killed it.

SubNoize
05-25-2007, 11:19 AM
listen I know there's no persuading and the stats shown above you can not argue, but as much as people like to play up scoring is easier in this era, you can argue that it was easier to put up defensive stats, which were half of what you had up there in Jordan's era, he was allowed to be more agressive and this led to more steals and blocks... So Kobe's era easier to score, and Jordans era easier to defend, they offset and the only thing you have is Jordan's rings and field % and asst #'s...Kobe has nobody to pass it to, Jordan had some spot on shooters in Paxton and Kerr, even Kukoc (SP?) was solid from the floor, Kobe's best shooter besides him is who? That's why he also misses more shots, he has to take more. So as of now like I said you have to say Jordan, but when all is said and Kobe is out of the league I beleive he may surpass Jordan.

Nitschke-Hawk
05-25-2007, 12:41 PM
Yeah Kobe desperately needs a spot on long distance shooter. Even though he can hit the three he's mainly an inside the arc player and so are Luke Walton/Lamar Odom who both have mixed skills of a SF and PF. Bynum appears to have a nice future, Kwame is good defensive player. I like Farmar but I don't know if he'll be ready to contribute as a starter like they need him to next year. They need a long distance shooter, and I guarantee Kobe's assists would go up. Ben Gordon would be perfect for them, but that ain't happening unless the Bulls get Bynum and picks in return.

reese
05-25-2007, 12:50 PM
listen I know there's no persuading and the stats shown above you can not argue, but as much as people like to play up scoring is easier in this era, you can argue that it was easier to put up defensive stats, which were half of what you had up there in Jordan's era, he was allowed to be more agressive and this led to more steals and blocks... So Kobe's era easier to score, and Jordans era easier to defend, they offset and the only thing you have is Jordan's rings and field % and asst #'s...Kobe has nobody to pass it to, Jordan had some spot on shooters in Paxton and Kerr, even Kukoc (SP?) was solid from the floor, Kobe's best shooter besides him is who? That's why he also misses more shots, he has to take more. So as of now like I said you have to say Jordan, but when all is said and Kobe is out of the league I beleive he may surpass Jordan.


ok so even if thats the case and it was easier to defend back then and easier to score no...they still dont just off set cuz jordan leads him in both

ricky bobby
05-25-2007, 12:54 PM
Yeah Kobe desperately needs a spot on long distance shooter. Even though he can hit the three he's mainly an inside the arc player and so are Luke Walton/Lamar Odom who both have mixed skills of a SF and PF. Bynum appears to have a nice future, Kwame is good defensive player. I like Farmar but I don't know if he'll be ready to contribute as a starter like they need him to next year. They need a long distance shooter, and I guarantee Kobe's assists would go up. Ben Gordon would be perfect for them, but that ain't happening unless the Bulls get Bynum and picks in return.
There were rumors about the Lakers trading for Kidd before the trading deadline. They would probably have to give up Bymun, but that would've helped them a ton. If I was Kobe, i'd be extremely upset with the Lakers for not getting Kidd. They already tried to get a 3-point shooter - Vlad Radmonivic. How did that work out for them?

btw, who are some of the top FAs available this offseason. I know Billups is available. Billups and Kobe would be a pretty nasty duo.

SubNoize
05-25-2007, 12:57 PM
that's why I mentioned Jordan leading him in FG % and asst. which is where he leads him in offensively, and I explained why Kobe is below here...Jordan was surrounded with other good shooters as well, as where Kobe has not had this priviledge.

sweetness34
05-25-2007, 02:49 PM
that's why I mentioned Jordan leading him in FG % and asst. which is where he leads him in offensively, and I explained why Kobe is below here...Jordan was surrounded with other good shooters as well, as where Kobe has not had this priviledge.

Jordan never had the most dominant big man in the game though. Btw back in their hey days, Fisher and Fox were good shooters. In an era that was dominated by the likes of Ewing, Mourning, Olajuwon, Mutumbo, Malone, Barkley, Robinson, etc MJ won 6 Titles without really anyone down low. Cartwright and Longley were serviceable, but they weren't anything special.

Michael also won series' without Pippen and Horace. Kobe has yet to win one without Shaq. Odom is a very talented sidekick (he had a rough season with his baby dying), and when healthy Walton is a good complementary player.

Also, I know we can't assume anything but you always wonder what MJ would've done if he hadn't retired for a year and a half and came back. We could be talking about 8 titles, and not just 6.

SubNoize
05-25-2007, 03:16 PM
although not dominant, Cartwright was overall solid, and was complimented well by Grant to make a good big man combo, same goes for Longley and Rodman. Rodman doesn't get nearly enough credit for the job he did in frustrating the hell out of Malone every night of that series by flopping on him and grabbing him to the point of mental breakdown. those late 90's teams were impressive with Harper and Kukoc as good roleplayers, even Beuchler played well when asked.