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View Full Version : Suggs v. Ware v. Merrimann


SenorGato
05-29-2007, 02:32 PM
All are DE/OLB hybrids. All are at their best at this position.

Which would you take?

LarryJohnson27
05-29-2007, 02:34 PM
All are DE/OLB hybrids. All are at their best at this position.

Which would you take?

As much as I can't stand him, I have to go with Merriman. But they're all VERY close IMO. Suggs doesn't get the credit he deserves.

remix 6
05-29-2007, 02:37 PM
Gimme Suggs easily

Hes fast..stronger than his size might indicate and hes TSIZZLE

neko4
05-29-2007, 02:37 PM
Merriman. He had like 17 sacks in 12 games and still plays the run pretty well. He'll break Strahan's and Bruce Smith's records.

A Perfect Score
05-29-2007, 02:38 PM
i think suggs is the most complete, therefore ill put him at the top of my list. He has more experience then the other two, and has played at both the DE and 3-4 OLB position, while the other two have played at just the latter. Suggs to me represents more versatility and while he may not be as electrifying a pass rusher as Ware or Merriman, i believe he is more complete and a better overall player.

LarryJohnson27
05-29-2007, 02:38 PM
Gimme Suggs easily

Hes fast..stronger than his size might indicate and hes TSIZZLE

I don't think Suggs wins easily. It's pretty close.

ATLDirtyBirds
05-29-2007, 02:38 PM
Give me Ware. He can do it all.

bryanGENE
05-29-2007, 02:41 PM
Ware. Great athlete and he's only going to get better.

princefielder28
05-29-2007, 02:42 PM
Merriman is as good as they get but I wouldn't have a problem taking either three of them

SeanTaylorRIP
05-29-2007, 02:45 PM
In terms of who I'd take:
1) Merriman
2) Suggs
3) Ware

But it's really close on all 3.

Moses
05-29-2007, 02:47 PM
Merriman is the best DE/OLB hybrid in the game.

Jensen
05-29-2007, 02:54 PM
I'd take Merriman with Suggs 2nd.

M.O.T.H.
05-29-2007, 02:56 PM
I'd be happy with any of them and i have one....D-WARE...Booyah!

Mr. Stiller
05-29-2007, 03:19 PM
Ware is underrated. He has better Coverage Capability and Stronger against the run than Merriman and still a better pass rusher than Suggs.

Phrost
05-29-2007, 03:20 PM
I'd take a complete player that could play in the 4-3 and the 3-4 effectively before I take a pure(one trick pony) passrusher.

Paranoidmoonduck
05-29-2007, 03:22 PM
It's definitely Merrimen at this point, but that doesn't take away from the other two players. All three are excellent defenders.

SeanTaylorRIP
05-29-2007, 03:24 PM
I'd take a complete player that could play in the 4-3 and the 3-4 effectively before I take a pure(one trick pony) passrusher.

So you'd take Suggs?

Phrost
05-29-2007, 03:30 PM
So you'd take Suggs?

si.........

Paul
05-29-2007, 03:32 PM
Frickin hard choice. I wanna be homer and say Ware, but I've been a big fan of Suggs for the longest.... imma take Suggs for now.

jkpigskin
05-29-2007, 03:34 PM
Suggs is the ugliest player on the ravens and merrimen lacks a neck so i go with....

haha jk, I would go with Merriman. His intensity is unmatched and so is his tenacity

Hines
05-29-2007, 03:38 PM
if u want strictly a pass rusher the best one is merriman cuz of his physical pressence


if u want a more complete then its tsizzle

but i voted for merriman

then itll be suggs
then ware

JoeMontainya
05-29-2007, 03:39 PM
Ill take Merrimen any day over Suggs and Ware. Call me a homer but im sure im not the only one that would rather have Wimbley over Ware.

Ravens1991
05-29-2007, 03:40 PM
I think all 3 can be pro bowlers, but as much as I love T-sizzle I gotta go with Merriman, I dont wanna sound like a loser homer arguing about how Merrimans steroids makes Suggs #1.

Hines
05-29-2007, 03:42 PM
I think all 3 can be pro bowlers, but as much as I love T-sizzle I gotta go with Merriman, I dont wanna sound like a loser homer arguing about how Merrimans steroids makes Suggs #1.


as a steeler fan he scared me more then adaluis (sp) and scott and reed and lewis did

idk why but he scared me more outta them

but i like suggs
az was stupid to not get him

SeanTaylorRIP
05-29-2007, 03:43 PM
I think all 3 can be pro bowlers, but as much as I love T-sizzle I gotta go with Merriman, I dont wanna sound like a loser homer arguing about how Merrimans steroids makes Suggs #1.

All 3 were pro bowlers last year I believe.

Ravens1991
05-29-2007, 03:45 PM
True but I admit Scott should have been ahead of T-sizzle.

SeanTaylorRIP
05-29-2007, 03:45 PM
It's funny how all the teams passed on Suggs because of his 40 time, yet he is a beast pass rusher and great in coverage and against the run, players just find a way to drop to the Ravens like Ed Reed at the 24th pick and Ray Lewis at the 26th pick, and Todd Heap at the 31st pick and so on, the Ravens know how to evaluate talent not measureables.

keylime_5
05-29-2007, 03:46 PM
Merriman is the best. Ware is great. Suggs is awesome. Don't forget Adalius Thomas either. Kamerion Wimbley had 11 sacks as a rookie on the Browns for crying out loud. I think Anthony Spencer is about to join that fraternatiy of great young DE/OLB hybrid pass rushers too. Shaun Phillips is great as well.

Paul
05-29-2007, 03:50 PM
Merriman is the best. Ware is great. Suggs is awesome. Don't forget Adalius Thomas either. Kamerion Wimbley had 11 sacks as a rookie on the Browns for crying out loud. I think Anthony Spencer is about to join that fraternatiy of great young DE/OLB hybrid pass rushers too. Shaun Phillips is great as well.

Agreed. Along with tightend, 3-4 DE/OLB's has one the deepest pools of talent then any other position currently.

Hines
05-29-2007, 03:50 PM
It's funny how all the teams passed on Suggs because of his 40 time, yet he is a beast pass rusher and great in coverage and against the run, players just find a way to drop to the Ravens like Ed Reed at the 24th pick and Ray Lewis at the 26th pick, and Todd Heap at the 31st pick and so on, the Ravens know how to evaluate talent not measureables.


also some kid named clinton portis dropped to round 2

SeanTaylorRIP
05-29-2007, 03:54 PM
also some kid named clinton portis dropped to round 2

Ravens didn't draft him, lol.

Ewing
05-29-2007, 03:55 PM
Merriman is the best. Ware is great. Suggs is awesome. Don't forget Adalius Thomas either. Kamerion Wimbley had 11 sacks as a rookie on the Browns for crying out loud. I think Anthony Spencer is about to join that fraternatiy of great young DE/OLB hybrid pass rushers too. Shaun Phillips is great as well.

Don't forget about Manny Lawson. He could be better than all of them.

Moses
05-29-2007, 03:57 PM
It's funny how all the teams passed on Suggs because of his 40 time, yet he is a beast pass rusher and great in coverage and against the run, players just find a way to drop to the Ravens like Ed Reed at the 24th pick and Ray Lewis at the 26th pick, and Todd Heap at the 31st pick and so on, the Ravens know how to evaluate talent not measureables.

Ravens have a very nice history of 1st round draft picks.

http://i17.tinypic.com/54jyet2.jpg

Hard to argue with that. I can't think of a team that has done better in that time span.

jkpigskin
05-29-2007, 04:00 PM
Ravens have a very nice history of 1st round draft picks.

http://i17.tinypic.com/54jyet2.jpg

Hard to argue with that. I can't think of a team that has done better in that time span.

yup, only 2 flops in that 10 year span

SeanTaylorRIP
05-29-2007, 04:02 PM
Don't forget about Manny Lawson. He could be better than all of them.

He hasn't proven yet that he deserves to be in any sort of discussion like this.

Hines
05-29-2007, 04:04 PM
Ravens didn't draft him, lol.


yes i know
but u were tlakin about players droppin

so i thought i should share that clinton did too

Ewing
05-29-2007, 04:07 PM
He hasn't proven yet that he deserves to be in any sort of discussion like this.

He was mentioning Anthony Spencer; I think it's fair to mention Lawson if Spencer's name is coming up.

TheChampIsHere
05-29-2007, 04:08 PM
Suggs and Ware are great but Merriman is the standout at the position. He has just been a dominant force these past 2 years and hes only going to get better.

SenorGato
05-29-2007, 04:40 PM
I forgot my rankings:

1. Ware - He's the physical freak amongst them. He's the strongest and the fastest of the 3.

2. Suggs - He and Ware are way more well rounded than Merrimann.

3. Merrimann - The best pure pass rusher of the 3, but the least well rounded.

Suggs and Ware have been my favorite players from before both of their respective drafts though. Both play my favorite position, and I like their all around ability more than Merrimann.

Can't wait til Ware is turned loose by Phillips.

Xenos
05-29-2007, 06:14 PM
I'd take a complete player that could play in the 4-3 and the 3-4 effectively before I take a pure(one trick pony) passrusher.
You make that sounds like it's a bad thing that Merriman is primarily a pass rusher. It's not like Wade Phillips used him that much in pass coverage. Of course, seeing as how rushing the passer is the most important thing in the NFL (at least in my honest opinion), I'd say that isn't a bad thing that Merriman is the best pure pass rusher of the two. And the best part is that he can only get better. Right now he's not using as much technique as he should. Shaun Phillips is someone that uses excellent technique and if Merriman can learn to follow in his methods then he'll be a true monster of the NFL.

Phrost
05-29-2007, 06:18 PM
You make that sounds like it's a bad thing that Merriman is primarily a pass rusher. It's not like Wade Phillips used him that much in pass coverage. Of course, seeing as how rushing the passer is the most important thing in the NFL (at least in my honest opinion), I'd say that isn't a bad thing that Merriman is the best pure pass rusher of the two. And the best part is that he can only get better. Right now he's not using as much technique as he should. Shaun Phillips is someone that uses excellent technique and if Merriman can learn to follow in his methods then he'll be a true monster of the NFL.

You have to look at these players abilities to play in multiple systems, Suggs and Ware can do that.

sweetness34
05-29-2007, 06:26 PM
I chose Suggs to shake things up a bit. They're all really close though.

nobodyinparticular
05-29-2007, 06:34 PM
'Roids. All I gotta say.

broncs2bowl
05-29-2007, 06:34 PM
Merrijuiceman is one of the most overattes players in the game. When you look at how much SD blitzes and other rushers like Williams to clog guys, Igor Olshanky and Phillips it is almost like Madden. If you send him fifteen times wide off the edge he is bound to get one or two sacks. Dont get me wrong I would love Merrriman on my team(particularly to rush th QB) but the guy just gets too much credit. I still think he will break the sack record but not due to his overall ability to play Linebacker.

My list:
1) Suggs
2) Ware
3) Merrijuiceman(over every other DE/OLB in the league other than Suggs/Ware)

Suggs is one of the most underrated players in the league. He is crazy good at LB and can rush from outside or play the down end. I just love the guy. D-Ware is a freak who is also monstrous. Merrijuiceman is a monster who is kinda overrated in his overall ability.

Yung Flippa
05-29-2007, 06:35 PM
I'll take Terrell Suggs easily.

Phrost
05-29-2007, 06:39 PM
How quickly people forgot Merriman was on roids.

bored of education
05-29-2007, 07:20 PM
Who cares if he is on roids. H is a forceand was a force when he came back from the suspension nd he is getting the derrick thoams type treatment...one trick pont BS.
that's his job. so when he breaks every record in the book go ahead and wine.

JK17
05-29-2007, 07:34 PM
Merrijuiceman is one of the most overattes players in the game. When you look at how much SD blitzes and other rushers like Williams to clog guys, Igor Olshanky and Phillips it is almost like Madden. If you send him fifteen times wide off the edge he is bound to get one or two sacks. Dont get me wrong I would love Merrriman on my team(particularly to rush th QB) but the guy just gets too much credit. I still think he will break the sack record but not due to his overall ability to play Linebacker.

My list:
1) Suggs
2) Ware
3) Merrijuiceman(over every other DE/OLB in the league other than Suggs/Ware)

Suggs is one of the most underrated players in the league. He is crazy good at LB and can rush from outside or play the down end. I just love the guy. D-Ware is a freak who is also monstrous. Merrijuiceman is a monster who is kinda overrated in his overall ability.

Yeah, I'm sure your calling him Merrijuiceman and being a Bronco fan doesn't give you any bias in this conversation....All those players rush the QB frequently so its not like Merriman is the only one who does that, its part of the position they all play. He's almost a glorified Rush DE, he has few responsibilities in the pass game, but thats the position he plays...hence the DE/OLB position the OP pointed out...

The steroids is a worn out and beat up topic, so I refuse to argue it, obviously he did something he shouldn't have, but just consider that he failed one test, among numerous other times being tested....its not like the guy was proven doing steroids his entire career. He cheated, knowingly or unknowingly at some point, obviously. But don't make it seem like the guy is the Barry Bonds of football.

As a pure pass rusher, I feel Merriman is the best, but he isn't as great an all-around 3-4 OLB as I think Ware is. I think those guys are 1-2, its tough to place the order depending on what you are looking for...just because I'm a Charger fan I'll say

1. Merriman
2. Ware
3. Suggs

KILLERSANTA
05-29-2007, 07:43 PM
1) Merriman
2) Ware
3) Suggs

At the end i think Ware will be the best....He was way more Raw coming out of college...This year I see 15-20 sacks.......

Chucky
05-29-2007, 07:47 PM
Yeah, I'm sure your calling him Merrijuiceman and being a Bronco fan doesn't give you any bias in this conversation....All those players rush the QB frequently so its not like Merriman is the only one who does that, its part of the position they all play. He's almost a glorified Rush DE, he has few responsibilities in the pass game, but thats the position he plays...hence the DE/OLB position the OP pointed out...

The steroids is a worn out and beat up topic, so I refuse to argue it, obviously he did something he shouldn't have, but just consider that he failed one test, among numerous other times being tested....its not like the guy was proven doing steroids his entire career. He cheated, knowingly or unknowingly at some point, obviously. But don't make it seem like the guy is the Barry Bonds of football.

As a pure pass rusher, I feel Merriman is the best, but he isn't as great an all-around 3-4 OLB as I think Ware is. I think those guys are 1-2, its tough to place the order depending on what you are looking for...just because I'm a Charger fan I'll say

1. Merriman
2. Ware
3. Suggs

Merriman has actually been proven to using steroids, so i think that would make him worse than barry

ricky bobby
05-29-2007, 07:47 PM
Merriman. He had like 17 sacks in 12 games and still plays the run pretty well. He'll break Strahan's and Bruce Smith's records.
He may, but I hope not. Many would consider it a tainted record.

JK17
05-29-2007, 07:51 PM
Merriman has actually been proven to using steroids, so i think that would make him worse than barry

Fine, don't make him into the Jose Canseco of football...

I said he failed a test, but what I was pointing out was that over the multiple times (and he has been tested many times, both before and after his failed test) he was clean each time. He's not a routine user, it could be anythign from a tainted supplemet to a one time mistake....not denying he screwed up, just that he's become the poster-child of the steroids in football deal when he's not remotely the worst guy there is for that.

SeanTaylorRIP
05-29-2007, 07:51 PM
If Merriman continues to put up the numbers now that he is clean I have no problem with it, Bonds record is tainted cause we all know he did steroids at the height of his success but Merriman was great when he came back.

Phrost
05-29-2007, 07:52 PM
Who cares if he is on roids. H is a forceand was a force when he came back from the suspension nd he is getting the derrick thoams type treatment...one trick pont BS.
that's his job. so when he breaks every record in the book go ahead and wine.

Who cares if he is on roids? Apparrently all of the sports world, it gives an advantage, you are really making yourself look like an idiot with a comment like that.

So when I say Rice is a top 5 DE people get on me because all he can do is pass rush?

Yes he is a one trick pony, he wouldn't excel as a 4-3 DE or OLB, a 3-4 blitzer is all he is and all he will be, which puts him a step lower than versatile players such as Ware or Suggs.

JK17
05-29-2007, 07:54 PM
Yes he is a one trick pony, he wouldn't excel as a 4-3 DE or OLB, a 3-4 blitzer is all he is and all he will be, which puts him a step lower than versatile players such as Ware or Suggs.

He's not a terrible player against the run, he's actually pretty good against it, its just not what he's asked to do, so saying he's just a 3-4 blitzer is kinda ignorant IMO.

He's asked to do what he's best at, but its not like he can't do the other things well. He's a 3-4 OLB, who's weak in coverage.

Phrost
05-29-2007, 07:58 PM
He's asked to do what he's best at, but its not like he can't do the other things well. He's a 3-4 OLB, who's weak in coverage.

When comparing players that play in different defensive systems you must compare their abilities to play in each system. You Merriman backers keep avoiding this fact.

When doing this, Suggs and Ware both out Merriman in these categories.

bored of education
05-29-2007, 07:58 PM
Yo, Phrost

If they cared he'd been kicked out of the league for good.

Phrost
05-29-2007, 07:59 PM
Yo, Phrost

If they cared he'd been kicked out of the league for good.

Hey BOE,

If they cared criminals like Vick would be out of the league for good. Sad but true.

bored of education
05-29-2007, 08:01 PM
Well, that wish may come true. The penalties for any of the off the field issues or being tested positive for a banned substance list does not deter the players. Obviously something is not working.

Phrost
05-29-2007, 08:03 PM
Well, that wish may come true. The penalties for any of the off the field issues or being tested positive for a banned substance list does not deter the players. Obviously something is not working.

Unfortunately for the rest of us non-falcon fans, We may not have the pleasure of facing him week in and out.

I would rather play Vick than Harrington.

JK17
05-29-2007, 08:04 PM
When comparing players that play in different defensive systems you must compare their abilities to play in each system. You Merriman backers keep avoiding this fact.

When doing this, Suggs and Ware both out Merriman in these categories.

The thread started out with....
All are DE/OLB hybrids. All are at their best at this position.

Which would you take?

Not which OLB is the best in all systems, which DE/OLB hybrid is the best at being a DE/OLB hybrid. So no, you don't have to compare them in all systems. And don't make a blanket statement like "you Merriman backers", that's very ignorant.

Edit: And also, I don't think I'm wrong on this, though I might be, but don't they all play in essentially the same, if not, a very similar 3-4 Def, with a few different wrinkles?

Phrost
05-29-2007, 08:06 PM
The thread started out with....


Not which OLB is the best in all systems, which DE/OLB hybrid is the best at being a DE/OLB hybrid. So no, you don't have to compare them in all systems. And don't make a blanket statement like "you Merriman backers", that's very ignorant.

Edit: And also, I don't think I'm wrong on this, though I might be, but don't they all play in essentially the same, if not, a very similar 3-4 Def, with a few different wrinkles?

Until they all have the same exact systems, I will stick to my guns.

JK17
05-29-2007, 08:09 PM
Until they all have the same exact systems, I will stick to my guns.

They're never going to have the exact same system, no one in the NFL will...

okay though, fair enough. But the question still asked for which DE/OLB is the best DE/OLB, not which one can do the best in the 4-3 and other schemes like you brought up before.

Thinking the other guys are better then Merriman isn't something that's ridiculous, I'm sure its a belief a lot of people have, and I think Ware is possibly even better then Merriman, so I don't care if you think he's worst of the three, but your logic wasn't really addressing the question.

bigbluedefense
05-29-2007, 08:47 PM
Ive discussed this with many Ravens fans. In my opinion its Terrell Suggs. He's the most complete of the 3.


He's an equal run stuffer to Ware, equal to Ware in coverage, a better pass rusher than Ware but not Merriman, and he's a better hybrid than both Ware and Merriman. He can hold up as a fulltime DE as well as a rushbacker. Right now, he gets the nod.

However, thats only because Merriman needs to prove himself in my eyes without the roids. So this is a big year for Merriman. If he can continue to dominate this year, Id give the edge to Merriman. Because while he's not as good as Suggs in run stuffing and coverage, hes by far the best pass rusher of the 3. And its not like he stinks in run stuffing either, he's a force. So if he can continue his dominance, he's the best.

But right now, Suggs deserves that credit.

If you break down the 3 based on categories, it goes like this

Best Pass Rusher: Merriman
Best Run Stuffer: Ware/Suggs tie
Best Pass Coverage: Ware/Suggs tie
Best DE: Suggs
Best Big Play Maker: Merriman
Most Intimidating: Merriman

Ware can be just as good as Suggs if he can improve his pass rush. I think physically and production wise, Merriman is better than both, its just that I can't give him that credit until I see what he does this upcoming year.

niel89
05-29-2007, 10:05 PM
Ive discussed this with many Ravens fans. In my opinion its Terrell Suggs. He's the most complete of the 3.


He's an equal run stuffer to Ware, equal to Ware in coverage, a better pass rusher than Ware but not Merriman, and he's a better hybrid than both Ware and Merriman. He can hold up as a fulltime DE as well as a rushbacker. Right now, he gets the nod.

However, thats only because Merriman needs to prove himself in my eyes without the roids. So this is a big year for Merriman. If he can continue to dominate this year, Id give the edge to Merriman. Because while he's not as good as Suggs in run stuffing and coverage, hes by far the best pass rusher of the 3. And its not like he stinks in run stuffing either, he's a force. So if he can continue his dominance, he's the best.

But right now, Suggs deserves that credit.

If you break down the 3 based on categories, it goes like this

Best Pass Rusher: Merriman
Best Run Stuffer: Ware/Suggs tie
Best Pass Coverage: Ware/Suggs tie
Best DE: Suggs
Best Big Play Maker: Merriman
Most Intimidating: Merriman

Ware can be just as good as Suggs if he can improve his pass rush. I think physically and production wise, Merriman is better than both, its just that I can't give him that credit until I see what he does this upcoming year.

i love you.:D those are all very valid points. i like Suggs the best(homer) but Merriman is a devastating pass rusher and an intimidator

JK17
05-29-2007, 10:34 PM
Ive discussed this with many Ravens fans. In my opinion its Terrell Suggs. He's the most complete of the 3.


He's an equal run stuffer to Ware, equal to Ware in coverage, a better pass rusher than Ware but not Merriman, and he's a better hybrid than both Ware and Merriman. He can hold up as a fulltime DE as well as a rushbacker. Right now, he gets the nod.

However, thats only because Merriman needs to prove himself in my eyes without the roids. So this is a big year for Merriman. If he can continue to dominate this year, Id give the edge to Merriman. Because while he's not as good as Suggs in run stuffing and coverage, hes by far the best pass rusher of the 3. And its not like he stinks in run stuffing either, he's a force. So if he can continue his dominance, he's the best.

But right now, Suggs deserves that credit.

If you break down the 3 based on categories, it goes like this

Best Pass Rusher: Merriman
Best Run Stuffer: Ware/Suggs tie
Best Pass Coverage: Ware/Suggs tie
Best DE: Suggs
Best Big Play Maker: Merriman
Most Intimidating: Merriman

Ware can be just as good as Suggs if he can improve his pass rush. I think physically and production wise, Merriman is better than both, its just that I can't give him that credit until I see what he does this upcoming year.

Can't really disagree with anythign you said there...

Don't know why I haven't given Suggs too much credit, I guess because I've seen him play the least? From what I do remember though, and your analysis maybe I would place him above Ware. All three of these guys are very tough to rank next to each other.

no love
05-30-2007, 12:12 AM
Merriman. He had like 17 sacks in 12 games and still plays the run pretty well. He'll break Strahan's and Bruce Smith's records.

All time records are about being productive for a long period of time. It's hard to predict that Merriman will continue to be as productive because that will be predicting how healthy he will be. He has done steroids, that can often lead to injury (see David Boston who was an absolute beast for a while till his body broke down). I still think Merriman is the best choice here tho, all around players are nice to have, but the NFL puts a premium on pass rushers for a reason.

I can't wait to see Manny Lawson in the same scheme as Merriman (our new D-coordinator, Manusky is the Chargers old LB coach, he will bring their aggressive scheme). Manny Lawson has the freak athletic ability to be excellent in pass coverage while being an awesome edge rusher. This year we actually get to run the 3-4 full time so he will actually have an opportunity to blitz more often than we did out of the 4-3.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bggERLkktUI

steelersfan43
05-30-2007, 12:19 AM
http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/dtopics/stds/images/syringe.jpg
Thus, suggs.

Xenos
05-30-2007, 02:14 AM
Until they all have the same exact systems, I will stick to my guns.

We'll find out about Ware this season anyways now that Wade is his defensive coordinator.

Modano
05-30-2007, 02:42 AM
Ive discussed this with many Ravens fans. In my opinion its Terrell Suggs. He's the most complete of the 3.


He's an equal run stuffer to Ware, equal to Ware in coverage, a better pass rusher than Ware but not Merriman, and he's a better hybrid than both Ware and Merriman. He can hold up as a fulltime DE as well as a rushbacker. Right now, he gets the nod.

However, thats only because Merriman needs to prove himself in my eyes without the roids. So this is a big year for Merriman. If he can continue to dominate this year, Id give the edge to Merriman. Because while he's not as good as Suggs in run stuffing and coverage, hes by far the best pass rusher of the 3. And its not like he stinks in run stuffing either, he's a force. So if he can continue his dominance, he's the best.

But right now, Suggs deserves that credit.

If you break down the 3 based on categories, it goes like this

Best Pass Rusher: Merriman
Best Run Stuffer: Ware/Suggs tie
Best Pass Coverage: Ware/Suggs tie
Best DE: Suggs
Best Big Play Maker: Merriman
Most Intimidating: Merriman

Ware can be just as good as Suggs if he can improve his pass rush. I think physically and production wise, Merriman is better than both, its just that I can't give him that credit until I see what he does this upcoming year.

bbd, I almost agree on everything, but I don't know if Merriman is the best playmaker. Last year Ware was a true force in that aspect of the game (and he scored 2 TDs), and he made one of the best defensive play of the entire season against the Falcons...
I wanna see Ware playing in the Phillips 34, I think he can improve drastically, Zimmer 34 gave him less opportunities, he will face way more favorable matchups this year.

BigDawg819
05-30-2007, 08:10 AM
Bottomline Terrell Suggs is the most complete player of the 3 and therefore the best! Plus he doesn't have to resort to the juice....

High Roller
05-30-2007, 08:13 AM
Ware is the most complete of the 3 but I'd take Merriman.

BigDawg819
05-30-2007, 08:14 AM
Ware is the most complete of the 3 but I'd take Merriman.

If you believe that then I have a bridge I'd like to sell to you.......

Addict
05-30-2007, 08:20 AM
I want Merriman... I want my players to dance. And he's the best all-round dancer out of the three.

High Roller
05-30-2007, 08:22 AM
If you believe that then I have a bridge I'd like to sell to you.......

?
(10characters)

Edit:
Best Pass Rusher: Merriman
Best Run Stuffer: Ware/Suggs tie
Best Pass Coverage: Ware/Suggs tie
Best DE: Suggs
Best Big Play Maker: Merriman
Most Intimidating: Merriman


If you agree with this, which many do including me, IMO Ware is a better rusher & playmaker making him better than Suggs

Acreboy
05-30-2007, 08:29 AM
Wow, I guess I just prefer Ware better.

1.) Ware
2.) Suggs
3.) Merriman

bigbluedefense
05-30-2007, 08:34 AM
?
(10characters)

Edit:

If you agree with this, which many do including me, IMO Ware is a better rusher & playmaker making him better than Suggs

Hmmmm. Well, Ware is a better playmaker than Suggs. I agree with that. But I don't think he's a better pass rusher. His arsenal of moves is so basic. Its either a generic bullrush, or a generic edge rush. Thats it. Suggs displays a much better arsenal of moves. You gotta remember, Baltimore has so many playmakers on the team, its hard for Suggs to stand out. Ware and Merriman were THE guys of their respective teams. You can make a case both ways I guess since that also means that Merriman and Ware get more attention thrown their way.

Its tough, theyre so close. Ware has potential to be the best of the 3. He's so athletically gifted its scary. Maybe Im hard on him because I have high expectations for him, and currently he hasn't lived up to them. I would like to see a better motor out of him too. Merriman and Suggs have better motors.

Acreboy
05-30-2007, 08:38 AM
Hmmmm. Well, Ware is a better playmaker than Suggs. I agree with that. But I don't think he's a better pass rusher. His arsenal of moves is so basic. Its either a generic bullrush, or a generic edge rush. Thats it. Suggs displays a much better arsenal of moves. You gotta remember, Baltimore has so many playmakers on the team, its hard for Suggs to stand out. Ware and Merriman were THE guys of their respective teams. You can make a case both ways I guess since that also means that Merriman and Ware get more attention thrown their way.

Its tough, theyre so close. Ware has potential to be the best of the 3. He's so athletically gifted its scary. Maybe Im hard on him because I have high expectations for him, and currently he hasn't lived up to them. I would like to see a better motor out of him too. Merriman and Suggs have better motors.Look for Ware to have a monster year with the addition of Spencer.

bigbluedefense
05-30-2007, 08:40 AM
Actually, I failed to mention this earlier, T Sizzle is probably the best of the 3 at generating fumbles. He strips the ball better than the other 2.

High Roller
05-30-2007, 08:40 AM
Hmmmm. Well, Ware is a better playmaker than Suggs. I agree with that. But I don't think he's a better pass rusher. His arsenal of moves is so basic. Its either a generic bullrush, or a generic edge rush. Thats it. Suggs displays a much better arsenal of moves. You gotta remember, Baltimore has so many playmakers on the team, its hard for Suggs to stand out. Ware and Merriman were THE guys of their respective teams. You can make a case both ways I guess since that also means that Merriman and Ware get more attention thrown their way.

Its tough, theyre so close. Ware has potential to be the best of the 3. He's so athletically gifted its scary. Maybe Im hard on him because I have high expectations for him, and currently he hasn't lived up to them. I would like to see a better motor out of him too. Merriman and Suggs have better motors.

I agree with everything you said. But if Ware got 11/12 sacks last year, whether his moves are basic or not, they seem to be working. If he can be better coached he can pile up even more. Suggs is also a vet while Ware is going into year 3. It's so close but like I said I'd take Merriman of all three.

Edit:
Look for Ware to have a monster year with the addition of Spencer.
This can get more pressure off of him and with the new Dallas Coach (blanking out name) he is great with the 34.

bigbluedefense
05-30-2007, 08:41 AM
Look for Ware to have a monster year with the addition of Spencer.

I expect him to have a better year. But its unrealistic for some Cowboy fans to expect 17 to 20 sacks. Ive heard that # being thrown around alot. Like its that easy to get 20 sacks. I mean come on...I consider a great year to be 15 sacks. Its not easy for rushbackers to get high sack totals. Merriman is the exception, not the rule.

Acreboy
05-30-2007, 08:44 AM
This can get more pressure off of him and with the new Dallas Coach (blanking out name) he is great with the 34.
Wade Phillips

I expect him to have a better year. But its unrealistic for some Cowboy fans to expect 17 to 20 sacks. Ive heard that # being thrown around alot. Like its that easy to get 20 sacks. I mean come on...I consider a great year to be 15 sacks. Its not easy for rushbackers to get high sack totals. Merriman is the exception, not the rule.
Wow, people throwing out 17-20 sacks? Geez..

Addict
05-30-2007, 08:46 AM
Wow, people throwing out 17-20 sacks? Geez..

with great power comes great responsibilty.

High Roller
05-30-2007, 08:46 AM
I expect him to have a better year. But its unrealistic for some Cowboy fans to expect 17 to 20 sacks. Ive heard that # being thrown around alot. Like its that easy to get 20 sacks. I mean come on...I consider a great year to be 15 sacks. Its not easy for rushbackers to get high sack totals. Merriman is the exception, not the rule.

That's a bit hefty...

bigbluedefense
05-30-2007, 08:46 AM
Wade Phillips


Wow, people throwing out 17-20 sacks? Geez..

Well in defense of Cowboy fans, it couldve been just one guy in particular who kept saying it, I don't remember :p

jkpigskin
05-30-2007, 09:40 AM
Hmmmm. Well, Ware is a better playmaker than Suggs. I agree with that. But I don't think he's a better pass rusher. His arsenal of moves is so basic. Its either a generic bullrush, or a generic edge rush. Thats it. Suggs displays a much better arsenal of moves. You gotta remember, Baltimore has so many playmakers on the team, its hard for Suggs to stand out. Ware and Merriman were THE guys of their respective teams. You can make a case both ways I guess since that also means that Merriman and Ware get more attention thrown their way.

Its tough, theyre so close. Ware has potential to be the best of the 3. He's so athletically gifted its scary. Maybe Im hard on him because I have high expectations for him, and currently he hasn't lived up to them. I would like to see a better motor out of him too. Merriman and Suggs have better motors.


i must say BBD, all your posts are very inteligent and you know wat you are talking about... props

anyway, having only watched suggs and merriman (in college) on a consistent basis i dont know wat type of player ware is... but when i see suggs, i dont see a rush backer, i see a complete linebacker... he might not stick out but he is always making that big tackle, not a sack
if i wanted a complete LB, it would be him, but merrimen's reckless and crazy rushing style gets the nod if i wanted a rush backer

BigDawg819
05-30-2007, 09:49 AM
i must say BBD, all your posts are very inteligent and you know wat you are talking about... props

anyway, having only watched suggs and merriman (in college) on a consistent basis i dont know wat type of player ware is... but when i see suggs, i dont see a rush backer, i see a complete linebacker... he might not stick out but he is always making that big tackle, not a sack
if i wanted a complete LB, it would be him, but merrimen's reckless and crazy rushing style gets the nod if i wanted a rush backer

Suggs has become an overall linebacker/hybrid player because when he entered the league he was a pure pass rusher and that's it. Merriman is still raw and unrefined, he is all pass rush and is a liability in the run defense and as for Ware, I'm sorry I don't buy this hype I hear about him. Ware may come out with a big year this year and may very well live up to this hype but so far I'm not seeing the production to correspond with the potential. Sizzle is by far the best in this group and will continue to prove it for many years to come, and by the way his contract extension is going to be enormous so San Diego and Dallas will have their hands full when their guys are up for renewals.

ChefMike
05-30-2007, 11:00 AM
Gimme Suggs easily

Hes fast..stronger than his size might indicate and hes TSIZZLE

I really think that Merriman is better but I would never give up T-Sizzle he is a beast and is way underrated. He doesnt get half of the credit he deserves and the Ravens made that position what it is today...Merriman and Ware would have been DE's or made to lose weight to play OLB, but the Ravens just took him the way he was and utilized his talents to the best of HIS ability.

D-Fence
05-30-2007, 11:27 AM
Some of you gotta remember, Ware played in BY FAR the most laid back, simplistic 3-4 of any of the 3. He was used as a pass rusher FAR less than Suggs or Merriman, and was sent back into coverage a ton more (where I think he's easily the best of the 3)...Ware may be the guy on Dallas' defense, but he faces double/triples because NONE of the defensive linemen could generate any pressure or require extra attention, and Akin/James/Carpenter weren't getting any pressure opposite of him after Greg Ellis went down. Ware is about to be let loose in Wade's scheme, and I think he'll prove to be the best of the 3.

To me, he's the best run-stuffer, he's the best in coverage, he's a very good pass-rusher...Ware was easily the most raw prospect of the 3 coming out of college, but he's the most athletically gifted and has shown the most progress of the three from when he entered the league to this point in his career than either Suggs or Merriman, in my opinion. Ware is only going to get better, and he is definately going to impose his will on the L in the new scheme.

bigbluedefense
05-30-2007, 11:39 AM
Some of you gotta remember, Ware played in BY FAR the most laid back, simplistic 3-4 of any of the 3. He was used as a pass rusher FAR less than Suggs or Merriman, and was sent back into coverage a ton more (where I think he's easily the best of the 3)...Ware may be the guy on Dallas' defense, but he faces double/triples because NONE of the defensive linemen could generate any pressure or require extra attention, and Akin/James/Carpenter weren't getting any pressure opposite of him after Greg Ellis went down. Ware is about to be let loose in Wade's scheme, and I think he'll prove to be the best of the 3.

To me, he's the best run-stuffer, he's the best in coverage, he's a very good pass-rusher...Ware was easily the most raw prospect of the 3 coming out of college, but he's the most athletically gifted and has shown the most progress of the three from when he entered the league to this point in his career than either Suggs or Merriman, in my opinion. Ware is only going to get better, and he is definately going to impose his will on the L in the new scheme.


Honestly, I love Ware in coverage. I think thats his best attribute. He was not tripled though. Ive seen him doubled, but thats usually not the case either. Most of the time he had the LT on him, and thats about it. From what Ive seen, Merriman is easily the most doubled of the bunch. He's always doubled.

One of the issues I have is, everyone saying that Ware will be let loose under Phillips. Ive seen plenty of Cowboys games last year. I don't see how Wade is gonna use him any better than BP did. He'll get maybe 4 more rushes at the qb per game. Is that really THAT big of a deal? I mean come on, its not like he was in coverage all the time. He played DE in the nickel, and he rushed at least 50% of the time in the base 3-4. He had plenty of oppurtunities.

This leads me to bring up another point I forgot to mention. The lost stat of hurries. While Ware had more sacks than Suggs this year, he didn't hurry the qb as much as you would like. Hurries imo are just as important as sacks. But its lost in today's world of stats.

Let me ask the board this. Who had a better game? A DE who constantly disrupted plays, getting tons of hurries all game but no sacks, or a DE who was being worked all game, getting no hurries, but on 2 plays, got 2 sacks?

To me, its the guy who had the hurries. He was disrupting plays on a consistant basis. Ware from what Ive seen, does not do a great job generating hurries. And that has alot to do with his motor, and his basic pass rushing techniques. He should be the best of the 3, but Im not ready to crown him just yet. He's gotta develop more as a player.

etk
05-30-2007, 12:29 PM
DeMarcus Ware has the athleticism I like to be able to make plays all over the field. He breaks quickly to the ballcarrier and has the agility to contain bootlegs and other toss plays. 3 years from now he should be the best all around player of the 3 and possibly the most dominant.

DMWSackMachine
05-30-2007, 01:35 PM
To those who think that Suggs is better or as good in coverage as Ware, let me point something out here. Of all Ware's best plays this year, each of the top 3 were either in coverage, or using skills that are applied in coverage.

1) INT for TD against the Falcons.

On this play, he was running full force towards Vick, who was backpedaling in the pocket, and then absolutely rifled the ball over DeMarcus' head in an attempt to throw it away. Ware jumps up in mid stride and catches the ball (which had left Vick's hands about 2 yards previous), lands in stride and races towards the endzone for a TD. This was one of the top 3 defensive plays of the year. I have never seen that type of ball skill out of any pass rusher for as long as I've watched football.

2) FR/INT for TD vs Philly

This play was nearly as amazing. He was coming off the edge vs. the Eagles against a double team of Tra Thomas and LJ Smith. On the other side, Greg Ellis hits McNabb as he is throwing, and the ball pops waaay up in the air, but backwards. DeMarcus not only has the wherewithal and awareness to see the play, but then perfectly comes off the blocks, tracks the ball in space, and catches it in stride while running downfield for a TD. Again, just not something you see most pass rushers doing.

3) Smackdown vs. Indy

This was the best play to show exactly how skilled and schooled Ware is in coverage. It's 4th down in the waning minute against the undefeated Colts. Manning is in the shotgun, with Ware playing coverage on the left side. Indianapolis runs a play specifically aimed at breaking down DeMarcus in space, with Clark lining up tight on the weak-side and running a seam pattern meant to drive DeMarcus off the ball, with Reggie Wayne running a short in/drag meant to catch DeMarcus vacating his area. Ware meets and tracks Clark off the ball, giving a good bump and disrupting his pattern just enough, before a) diagnosing his zone responsibility of passing him on and b) recognizing the play and the fact that Reggie Wayne is coming underneath him. Ware passes Clark off, then quickly jumps on Wayne's route and pushes him to the ground(a legak move since Wayne is inside of 5 yards and the ball is not in the air), negating not just one, but both of Mannings primary reads. On the replay, Manning waits patiently for his option to present itself, but is forced into throwing the ball in the general vicinity of Clark and complains about Reggie getting thrown down. Coverage doesn't get any better than this play.



So, to me, that clearly sets the bar for what a 34 OLB can do in pass coverage. I don't watch the Ravens regularly enough to make a thorough comparison of Suggs and DeMarcus, but I do watch the Chargers regularly, and Merriman isn't even in the same ballpark with this area of his game.

Meanwhile, some things have come to light about the Cowboy's scheme that I was not previously aware of. Out of our base package (which we ran about 60% percent of the time), most of the play calls were dependent upon the alignment of the opposing offense. If the TE lined up on the strong side, then the ROLB was sent to rush, while if he lined up on the weak-side (like in the Indy example above), then the LOLB was sent, and DeMarcus was forced into coverage.

After the Greg Ellis injury last season, teams started employing this tactic on an ever increasing basis in order to keep DeMarcus in coverage, and negating our only real pash rushing threat. Obviously, the logical thing to do is to move Ware around, and keep the offense guessing as to where he will line up.....but BP was a stickler about things like this, and rarely ever allowed that to happen. As a result, DeMarcus only had one sack out of the base package in the last 6 games of the season.

Think about that for a second. In that stretch, he had 5 1/2 sacks, but 4 1/2 of them came out of the nickel package. That is not a coincedence. He was forced into coverage an inordinate amount of the time after Ellis went down with his achilles injury, and that was reflected in both his individual sack numbers, and the team as a whole. Don't ask me why BP was so stubborn about moving him around, because I couldn't understand it then, and I don't now.

All that said, there is no doubt that Ware has the smallest and least effect pass rushing repertoire of these three players. It showed some signs of improvement late in the year, but he still relies on his speed and bullrush moves much too often....but theres a reason for that. I think of all the OLB pass rushers, DeMarcus has the most speed and best body-lean (allowing him to "blow by" defenders as if they were standing still) of the crop. He is also quite a bit stronger than you would think, and he out-benched Merriman at the combine.

The big question is whether he will work on his technique and develop his countermoves to the point where he is literally unblockable. If he does that, there is no question in my mind that he will be the best rush 'backer in the league, and a top 5 defensive player overall, along with being a perennial DPOY candidate.

But, as you can see, I am just a wee bit partial.....:D

Burns336
05-30-2007, 01:41 PM
In regaurds to Merriman; the whole "now that he is off juice argument" is pretty flawed. HGH is the wave of the future and is untraceable. Merriman is a known HGH user as are many other Chargers. You just have to know the right people and this info is pretty standard.

This also raises the question, How can we rule out Ware or Suggs from HGH use.

We will never be able to completely filter the game is the players association keeps blocking the new HGH tests.

That being said, I think I would put Merriman 3rd. I think in his new defense this year, accompanied with the loss of Godfrey and Edwards in the middle, he will be less productive. I dont think the Defense will utilize his strengths as well as Wades did.

I would also put it as a toss up between Ware and Suggs at number 1, because Ware still has so much potential and is still very young. They are both great in coverage and against the run, but Suggs definately rushes the passer better as of right now.

I dont think the scheme has been the problem for Ware either, I think he just needs to dedicate some time to working on new technique. I only expect a 3-5 sack increase for Ware in the new scheme, given he didnt dedicate alot of time to his pass rushing this offseason.

JK17
05-30-2007, 01:47 PM
In regaurds to Merriman; the whole "now that he is off juice argument" is pretty flawed. HGH is the wave of the future and is untraceable. Merriman is a known HGH user as are many other Chargers. You just have to know the right people and this info is pretty standard.

Thats a ridiculous statement, what proof do you have that Merriman is an HGH user, and other Chargers are? You just said it was untraceable, so that is all speculation, not to mention you brought in other players, who you didn't even bother to name? If these guys are known users who are they, because I haven't heard anything about that....

This also raises the question, How can we rule out Ware or Suggs from HGH use.

We will never be able to completely filter the game is the players association keeps blocking the new HGH tests.

If we don't test for HGH, then we don't know who is on it...so don't accuse Merriman or "Chargers Players" of using something there is no evidence to suggest they do. And if your going to blanket the entire Chargers team like that with no hard evidence you can do it for any player or team in the league, so don't make statements like these.

The rest of your post is your analysis of the players, so I won't get into that I don't have a problem with it.

Xenos
05-30-2007, 01:47 PM
Suggs has become an overall linebacker/hybrid player because when he entered the league he was a pure pass rusher and that's it. Merriman is still raw and unrefined, he is all pass rush and is a liability in the run defense and as for Ware, I'm sorry I don't buy this hype I hear about him. Ware may come out with a big year this year and may very well live up to this hype but so far I'm not seeing the production to correspond with the potential. Sizzle is by far the best in this group and will continue to prove it for many years to come, and by the way his contract extension is going to be enormous so San Diego and Dallas will have their hands full when their guys are up for renewals.

Where did you get the impression that Merriman was a liability against the run? It's Donnie Edwards who was the guy who you couldn't depend on in that situation.

bigbluedefense
05-30-2007, 01:58 PM
The thing that should concern Cowboys fans is if Ware will ever improve his arsenal of pass rush moves.

Its simple, Ware will be the best of the 3 if he simply does this. But its easier said than done. If you read his detailed scout reports coming out of college, he's been doing this his whole career. Not just in the NFL. You wonder if he'll ever improve upon this aspect of his game. Whats so underrated about the pass rushing position, whether its rushbacker or DE is how mental the position is.

Its a game of chess. You gotta set up your Tackle. You can't just beat them with athleticism. This is the NFL, that will die on you quickly. You have to set them up. Pick your spots and make your moves appropriately.

Its said that it takes a full 3 years to transition from DE to rushbacker. This is true. But what they mean when they say this is, it takes 3 years to fully understand the nuances of the LB position, ie coverage, stopping the run standing up, reading offenses etc. Not rushing the passer. Thats farely standard, and that part of your game should be seen instantly from day 1. Ware has grasped the nuances of the LB position much quicker than expected, where his game is average is the pass rushing aspect, which shouldve been improved upon already.

Im not saying that he won't ever develop moves, I still feel that when the dust settles, he has potential to be the best of the bunch, but if he doesn't develop those moves by this year, he may never be the elite pass rusher that everyone envisioned. Training camp is gonna be critical to his improvement as a player. He's amazing in everything, if he can improve as a pass rusher, he's a top 5 defensive player in the league. But again, its no guarantee that it happens. We just have to wait and see.

You would like to see more fire out of the kid too. He just doesn't seem to have the same intensity and motor as the other 2. That you can't teach, thats something youre born with. But even then, he's so freakishly athletic, he can make up for this with improved technique.

bigbluedefense
05-30-2007, 02:09 PM
You know what I noticed? I know this is random, but lately, I seem to mostly post in defense related threads. =/

SenorGato
05-30-2007, 02:13 PM
How much do you guys think Suggs will fetch on the open market next year?

If he doesn't remain a Raven, where do you think he's most likely to go?

I think he's a match made in heaven with the Jets. But the same can be said about the 49ers and almost any other team in the NFL really.

MasterShake
05-30-2007, 02:24 PM
Suggs does it without Juicing...I'll take him.

Burns336
05-30-2007, 02:24 PM
Thats a ridiculous statement, what proof do you have that Merriman is an HGH user, and other Chargers are? You just said it was untraceable, so that is all speculation, not to mention you brought in other players, who you didn't even bother to name? If these guys are known users who are they, because I haven't heard anything about that....



If we don't test for HGH, then we don't know who is on it...so don't accuse Merriman or "Chargers Players" of using something there is no evidence to suggest they do. And if your going to blanket the entire Chargers team like that with no hard evidence you can do it for any player or team in the league, so don't make statements like these.

The rest of your post is your analysis of the players, so I won't get into that I don't have a problem with it.

Even though im not a Charger Fan, I'm associated with people who are in the Charger ring on different levels. Most the guys that come around are 2nd and 3rd stringers, with an occasional appearance from Marcus McNeil. These guys talk, most of the talk came from the TE you guys released in the off season. Ryan Krous I believe? Anyway, he wouldn't stop running his mouth about how he imported HGH for guys like Merriman from the mid west, which is where he had a source.

You dont have to believe it, but I was around when these things were discussed at the house before we would leave for the bars. It's true man, im sorry.

It's not like you should be the only one who feels bad either, because how do I know some guy on Dallas doesn't hook Ware up? Merriman is just someone that I know for sure.

Burns336
05-30-2007, 02:27 PM
And to respond to your question as to other players that had been named, It was Castillio, Foley (when on the team), a Few back-up LB's, Olshansky, and Kiel for sure. Their were others that were just speculation on his part. Those were the guys he actually supplied.

Xenos
05-30-2007, 02:32 PM
Suggs has become an overall linebacker/hybrid player because when he entered the league he was a pure pass rusher and that's it. Merriman is still raw and unrefined, he is all pass rush and is a liability in the run defense and as for Ware, I'm sorry I don't buy this hype I hear about him. Ware may come out with a big year this year and may very well live up to this hype but so far I'm not seeing the production to correspond with the potential. Sizzle is by far the best in this group and will continue to prove it for many years to come, and by the way his contract extension is going to be enormous so San Diego and Dallas will have their hands full when their guys are up for renewals.
I'm not too worried about us resigning Merriman. AJ almost always sign the key players to long term extensions before they hit the market. One of the reasons SD never spends that much in FA is because AJ knows that it will be harder to resign players like Rivers, Castillo, Igor, McNeill, and Merriman. All of those players mentioned have contracts currently running through the 2009 season, but I suspect they will start working on an extension for many of them after the 2007 season.

Xenos
05-30-2007, 02:33 PM
And to respond to your question as to other players that had been named, It was Castillio, Foley (when on the team), a Few back-up LB's, Olshansky, and Kiel for sure. Their were others that were just speculation on his part. Those were the guys he actually supplied.

You have no proof of this information. Foley was on HGH? Where did you get this idea. Is it from the steroid rage speculation made by the police when they also had no proof of this nonsense?

Edit: Just read your post on Krause. WOW! Seriously the guy couldn't stay on the field if his life depended on it, and now he's running his mouth about an organization that cut him. Color me a little skeptical.
Also, I'm not going to believe it until I get it from a more reliable source. I mean what's to keep me from saying the same things about your favorite team by saying that I knew a guy who used to roomate with a former player? It just seems that SD is an easy target because of the Merriman issue last season and Castillo's bust before the draft.

So next time, bring a video camera or something like that and post the online if you want people to believe you. And not just a player that was cut from a team but also guys like Marcus McNeill and the other 2nd and 3rd stringers. I need proof not just the ramblings of what could be a disgruntled fan.

Modano
05-30-2007, 02:48 PM
Honestly, I love Ware in coverage. I think thats his best attribute. He was not tripled though. Ive seen him doubled, but thats usually not the case either. Most of the time he had the LT on him, and thats about it. From what Ive seen, Merriman is easily the most doubled of the bunch. He's always doubled.

One of the issues I have is, everyone saying that Ware will be let loose under Phillips. Ive seen plenty of Cowboys games last year. I don't see how Wade is gonna use him any better than BP did. He'll get maybe 4 more rushes at the qb per game. Is that really THAT big of a deal? I mean come on, its not like he was in coverage all the time. He played DE in the nickel, and he rushed at least 50% of the time in the base 3-4. He had plenty of oppurtunities.


bbd, the different, imo, will be in the favorable matchups Ware will face. Last year Ware barely had favorable matchups, 80% of the time he was facing a LT. The Chargers' defense was built to create matchups, the Cowboys defense was very predictable. You would know before the snap what was gonna happen. How many times you see Spears or Canty sliding outside and taking care of the T forcing opposite teams to block Ware with a G or a TE? Not very often. I think this year more opportunities for Ware will come from the ability of Phllips to create those favorable matchups for him.

This is a link I've posted in the cowboys forum, it's pretty clear which was the differece between the two schemes last year.

http://www.bnbathletics.com/cowboysvids/site/flv/compare.html

bigbluedefense
05-30-2007, 03:30 PM
bbd, the different, imo, will be in the favorable matchups Ware will face. Last year Ware barely had favorable matchups, 80% of the time he was facing a LT. The Chargers' defense was built to create matchups, the Cowboys defense was very predictable. You would know before the snap what was gonna happen. How many times you see Spears or Canty sliding outside and taking care of the T forcing opposite teams to block Ware with a G or a TE? Not very often. I think this year more opportunities for Ware will come from the ability of Phllips to create those favorable matchups for him.

This is a link I've posted in the cowboys forum, it's pretty clear which was the differece between the two schemes last year.

http://www.bnbathletics.com/cowboysvids/site/flv/compare.html

I'll agree with that. He will see more favorable matchups this year.

I plan on commenting on that video as soon as I have some decent time. One thing I want to point out quickly is, even with the stunts etc, the success is predicated on the quality play of the front 3. The front 3, if you pay close attention, is the force that drives all those blitzes to work.

Ive said it forever, I don't think this Dallas defense will improve unless the front 3, in particular the DEs make an improvement this year. That is more important than anything else.

Modano
05-30-2007, 03:34 PM
I'll agree with that. He will see more favorable matchups this year.

I plan on commenting on that video as soon as I have some decent time. One thing I want to point out quickly is, even with the stunts etc, the success is predicated on the quality play of the front 3. The front 3, if you pay close attention, is the force that drives all those blitzes to work.

Ive said it forever, I don't think this Dallas defense will improve unless the front 3, in particular the DEs make an improvement this year. That is more important than anything else.

Yeah I know you will, i've posted that for the other users :P

By the way, we agree on the front 3 argument. We have to see how they'll perform in the new scheme. Spears seems better suited for the one-gap system, he has to play to his potential.

DMWSackMachine
05-30-2007, 04:00 PM
Also, BBD, you shouldn't mistake Ware's quiet and shy nature as lack of passion and fire. To a man, everyone in and around the organization says that he not only wants to be in the same company with the greats of the past, but that he's willing to do anything he can to achieve it.

In fact, his work ethic, character, and drive is the main thing (along with his explosiveness off the ball) that prompted BP and JJ to take him over Merriman in the first place. He may not make a show of it, or do the crazy dances and foam at the mouth the same way that Merriman does, but he is no less driven and passionate.

dcarey20
05-30-2007, 04:09 PM
All 3 are great players. If I had to rank them, it would be Merriman, Suggs, Ware.

SenorGato
05-30-2007, 04:25 PM
Also, BBD, you shouldn't mistake Ware's quiet and shy nature as lack of passion and fire. To a man, everyone in and around the organization says that he not only wants to be in the same company with the greats of the past, but that he's willing to do anything he can to achieve it.

In fact, his work ethic, character, and drive is the main thing (along with his explosiveness off the ball) that prompted BP and JJ to take him over Merriman in the first place. He may not make a show of it, or do the crazy dances and foam at the mouth the same way that Merriman does, but he is no less driven and passionate.

Completely agreed.

I have no idea where the "Ware doesn't have as good a motor" is coming from. Everytime I see the guy I'm impressed by him always playing at full speed.

niel89
05-30-2007, 05:35 PM
How much do you guys think Suggs will fetch on the open market next year?

If he doesn't remain a Raven, where do you think he's most likely to go?

I think he's a match made in heaven with the Jets. But the same can be said about the 49ers and almost any other team in the NFL really.

there isnt a big chance that ozzie lets him go. they have already been in contract talks since before the draft. he makes sure the young stars get signed.

BlindSite
05-30-2007, 05:46 PM
Ozzie Newsome is a great general manager, top 5 in the league quite easily. I was amazed and impressed with him not only after reading "Next man up" but also after looking further into what he's been able to do.

Suggs will remain a raven for the reason that they HAVE to keep him. To be honest I think he's the reason they chose not to match the pats offer to Adalius Thomas.

niel89
05-30-2007, 06:58 PM
Ozzie Newsome is a great general manager, top 5 in the league quite easily. I was amazed and impressed with him not only after reading "Next man up" but also after looking further into what he's been able to do.

Suggs will remain a raven for the reason that they HAVE to keep him. To be honest I think he's the reason they chose not to match the pats offer to Adalius Thomas.

yeah suggs was probably a part of that. im sure ozzie wanted to keep AD but suggs is more important. he is still young and is a fine player.

JK17
05-30-2007, 07:33 PM
And to respond to your question as to other players that had been named, It was Castillio, Foley (when on the team), a Few back-up LB's, Olshansky, and Kiel for sure. Their were others that were just speculation on his part. Those were the guys he actually supplied.

Okay, I mean thats rumors though, you don't think Krause has any bad will towards the Chargers organization? Since they cut him and all....I doubt all of what he says is true...there's a grain of truth to every story but who knows what he actually "supplied" those guys...Krause is a loser who was always injured, and had many incidents with the organization including a DUI, I wouldn't trust what comes out of his mouth.

Plus, that doesn't make these guys "known users" it means one guy with a grudge speculated he gave them stuff, which makes his intentions just as thought-provoking. Take it with a grain of salt.

Burns336
05-30-2007, 07:43 PM
You have no proof of this information. Foley was on HGH? Where did you get this idea. Is it from the steroid rage speculation made by the police when they also had no proof of this nonsense?

Edit: Just read your post on Krause. WOW! Seriously the guy couldn't stay on the field if his life depended on it, and now he's running his mouth about an organization that cut him. Color me a little skeptical.
Also, I'm not going to believe it until I get it from a more reliable source. I mean what's to keep me from saying the same things about your favorite team by saying that I knew a guy who used to roomate with a former player? It just seems that SD is an easy target because of the Merriman issue last season and Castillo's bust before the draft.

So next time, bring a video camera or something like that and post the online if you want people to believe you. And not just a player that was cut from a team but also guys like Marcus McNeill and the other 2nd and 3rd stringers. I need proof not just the ramblings of what could be a disgruntled fan.


McNeil neither confirmed or denied what was being said, He's just the biggest name that's ever hit the bars with us. I understand your skepticism, but at the same time, I dont know why Krause would just make that stuff up. He told us these things prior to being cut or having the off field incident he had, and he actually thought he had a future with the team.

I wouldn't fully believe someone telling me these things about Dallas players if it were just hear say, but unfortunately that is all its ever going to be. Krause is gone now, and even if he were still around, he would have never said anything like that on video.

The fact remains, that HGH, when taken properly, can have better results with less side effects than steroids, and is untraceable. It's pretty much expected that a player would use HGH over steroids. However, someone like Merriman may need to use steroids to make a quicker recovery from an injury which is why I believe he was using them before.

JK17
05-30-2007, 07:45 PM
The fact remains, that HGH, when taken properly, can have better results with less side effects than steroids, and is untraceable. It's pretty much expected that a player would use HGH over steroids. However, someone like Merriman may need to use steroids to make a quicker recovery from an injury which is why I believe he was using them before.

Which injuries were those...I remember him having a slight injury but I thought that was this year after the playoffs?

SenorGato
05-30-2007, 08:31 PM
there isnt a big chance that ozzie lets him go. they have already been in contract talks since before the draft. he makes sure the young stars get signed.

Thats why I said if.

What kind of money do you think he'll get with the Ravens? Any rumors?

bigbluedefense
05-30-2007, 08:34 PM
2 issues I have with this whole HGH argument in this thread.

1. If this guy was supplying so much HGH, why the hell didn't he use any? You figure if he did, he would stay on the team right? And wouldn't be so injury prone? I smell ******** and bitterness on his part.

2. HGH is a LEAGUE problem, not a SD problem. Newsflash, I bet 30% minimum of all our teams is on it. Jansen went on record saying 50%. So Im not gonna throw SD under the bus because of internet allegations knowing full well that theres probably guys on my own team using it, coupled with the fact that we can't prove it.

Its all about The U
05-30-2007, 08:42 PM
its def now ware, other 2 way over him

San Diego Chicken
05-30-2007, 09:58 PM
Merriman doesn't get enough credit for his versatility. He could probably play both defensive end positions in a traditional 4-3, because of how strong he is at the point of attack.

Xenos
05-30-2007, 10:17 PM
Merriman doesn't get enough credit for his versatility. He could probably play both defensive end positions in a traditional 4-3, because of how strong he is at the point of attack.

Looking at your AV, I just can't help but feel that Phillips is so underappreciated. The guy is the fastest pass rusher on our team and the techniques he uses are awesome. He may not have the intimidation factor like Merriman but he can get it done. Just looking at all the plays he's made this past season after becoming a full time starter and playing with an injury is an amazing. I swear that guy has the ability to just strip the ball from opposing QBs at just the right moment (ie. Carson Palmer and Jake Plummer).

Burns336
05-31-2007, 02:13 AM
Which injuries were those...I remember him having a slight injury but I thought that was this year after the playoffs?

What I had heard was that it was just some sort of strain or something of that matter. I know it wasn't a "can't play" injury, but I thought it was one of those potential nagging minor injuries that he was trying to get through.

Who knows? Like I said, Im just passing on what has been told to me by a former member of the team and anyone can take that for what its worth.

I would suspect that over half the league uses HGH. With so many 2nd and 3rd stringers looking for that extra edge, and the way that steroids are pushed starting at the highschool level, its almost inevitable.

JK17
05-31-2007, 06:11 AM
What I had heard was that it was just some sort of strain or something of that matter. I know it wasn't a "can't play" injury, but I thought it was one of those potential nagging minor injuries that he was trying to get through.

Who knows? Like I said, Im just passing on what has been told to me by a former member of the team and anyone can take that for what its worth.

I would suspect that over half the league uses HGH. With so many 2nd and 3rd stringers looking for that extra edge, and the way that steroids are pushed starting at the highschool level, its almost inevitable.

Alright, I just wouldn't get caught up in the "he-said this" game, especially when Krause is the one who is supposedly saying anything. All players have some sorts of strains during the season, so I doubt that would be the reason to prompt any one to do anything.

Caddy
05-31-2007, 06:34 AM
Gotta take Merriman on this one.

Geo
05-31-2007, 10:33 AM
Ware edges out T-Sizzle, for me. I love Ware, he's an amazing defensive prospect and one of my favorite players in the NFC.

CC.SD
05-31-2007, 12:23 PM
First of all, half the league is on HGH. Human veins don't do the things that NFL player's veins do. Just look at them. None of it will ever be proven.

Second of all, I've read a couple times that Merriman is a liability against the run. Where is this coming from? He absolutely crunches ballcarriers, and he's nearly always in position, or blowing up the runner close to the line of scrimmage. If he's a liability in anything, its coverage, and he's a second year player who converted from defensive end. He's still developing and learning, just like Ware.

I like Ware, he's definitely a beast. But he's no Merriman.

SubNoize
05-31-2007, 01:09 PM
Human veins can blow up like that without use of steroids. It's called hardwork and dedication and I've seen it first hand. I've watched Terrell Suggs absolutely blow up without use of any supplements. I've worked out with this guy soo mant times in the last few years and watched his ethic and level of intensity go up ten fold without touching anything, and it's been a multi-year progression, since he left high school in 99-00 till now. Look at him and the size of his neck, arms and legs and you can see a guy who worked hard for his body.

Space Ghost
05-31-2007, 02:46 PM
THe way you stated the original post makes me take Suggs because he actually plays DE a bunch for the Ravens. Ware and Merriman are much more of standup linebackers than Suggs is. Suggs gets his hands dirty.

Staubach12
05-31-2007, 04:39 PM
I think Merriman is, as of right now, the better pass rusher. There's no question about that (as of now). Suggs and Ware, however, are more balanced players. It's very close in this one I think Merriman dazzles because of his pass-rushing ability, but the lack of complete play from him really makes me uneasy about him. I also think with the new system in Dallas, Ware could get many more opportunities to rush the passer. He's going to have a heck of a year. As of now, I'd say: 1. Suggs 2. Ware 3. Merriman. I think a lot could change, however, in this next year.

SeanTaylorRIP
05-31-2007, 04:51 PM
THe way you stated the original post makes me take Suggs because he actually plays DE a bunch for the Ravens. Ware and Merriman are much more of standup linebackers than Suggs is. Suggs gets his hands dirty.

Yet when he was an OLB he was much more versatile than the other two.

Xenos
05-31-2007, 11:48 PM
I think Merriman is, as of right now, the better pass rusher. There's no question about that (as of now). Suggs and Ware, however, are more balanced players. It's very close in this one I think Merriman dazzles because of his pass-rushing ability, but the lack of complete play from him really makes me uneasy about him. I also think with the new system in Dallas, Ware could get many more opportunities to rush the passer. He's going to have a heck of a year. As of now, I'd say: 1. Suggs 2. Ware 3. Merriman. I think a lot could change, however, in this next year.

Merriman actually has a lot to improve on his pass rushing ability. He was a better run stopper his rookie season than pass rusher, which is why he was always replaced by Phillips during passing downs. He improved a lot this past season but still needs to work on refining his technique. Pass rushing and run stopping should really be the only things he should about since our system depends a lot on him and Phillips pressuring the QB.

Moses
06-01-2007, 12:13 AM
Merriman actually has a lot to improve on his pass rushing ability. He was a better run stopper his rookie season than pass rusher, which is why he was always replaced by Phillips during passing downs. He improved a lot this past season but still needs to work on refining his technique. Pass rushing and run stopping should really be the only things he should about since our system depends a lot on him and Phillips pressuring the QB.

Considering he had 17 sacks (league leader) in 12 games I wouldn't say his pass rushing needs much work.

Xenos
06-01-2007, 01:54 AM
Considering he had 17 sacks (league leader) in 12 games I wouldn't say his pass rushing needs much work.
Those are nice, but he still needs work against some of the better tackles in the league. He has great athleticism, and he sometimes rely on that too much. Hence, the fact that I keep bringing up his techinique versus Shaun Phillips.

JK17
06-01-2007, 06:03 AM
Those are nice, but he still needs work against some of the better tackles in the league. He has great athleticism, and he sometimes rely on that too much. Hence, the fact that I keep bringing up his techinique versus Shaun Phillips.

I don't know, I've never really found myself saying Merriman needs to work on his pass rush...

portermvp84
06-01-2007, 01:23 PM
I hate to say it but Shawn Merriman is the absolute best out of those three. He's a beast you can't stop him.

Geo
06-01-2007, 07:21 PM
Tell that to the Patriots. In the last game Merriman played, they stopped him cold and did his primadonna prance on his home field afterwards.

Xenos
06-02-2007, 02:38 AM
Tell that to the Patriots. In the last game Merriman played, they stopped him cold and did his primadonna prance on his home field afterwards.
Speaking of which, I was wondering if it was legal to choke a pass rusher or grab them by the neck in the NFL? It's apparently one of the rules I'm not clear on.

Dam8610
06-02-2007, 03:19 AM
Tell that to the Patriots. In the last game Merriman played, they stopped him cold and did his primadonna prance on his home field afterwards.

Wasn't he playing hurt most of that game?

niel89
06-02-2007, 03:39 AM
Speaking of which, I was wondering if it was legal to choke a pass rusher or grab them by the neck in the NFL? It's apparently one of the rules I'm not clear on.

was it allowed? yes. some of the best are those who know how to not get caught

JK17
06-02-2007, 07:09 AM
was it allowed? yes. some of the best are those who know how to not get caught

Yeah, I'm not going to complain and whine that we didn't get holding calls, but considering the circumstances I don't think that is the best game to judge him on....

He was held a lot more then players usually are, still had a sack (although a relatively insignificant one), but was constantly grabbed around the neck.

It's not really fair to judge him on that one game, especially considering he was being mugged all game.

remix 6
06-02-2007, 07:59 AM
holding? HOLDING? if anyone held the whole game it was your OL. our LBs got held as did Warren, Wilfork and Seymour

there was maybe 1 case where Light blatantly held. other than that..it was just an ordinary game except you've never seen Merriman shut down like that. he also got pancaked a twice on both sides :)

CC.SD
06-02-2007, 12:03 PM
holding? HOLDING? if anyone held the whole game it was your OL. our LBs got held as did Warren, Wilfork and Seymour

there was maybe 1 case where Light blatantly held. other than that..it was just an ordinary game except you've never seen Merriman shut down like that. he also got pancaked a twice on both sides :)

He was playing with an achilles injury, and yeah he was getting pretty consistently held. It's there on film.

and he does need to work on his technique; the guy dominates on his athleticism, but if he actually refined his pass rushing a little he'd be completely unstoppable.

JK17
06-02-2007, 05:50 PM
holding? HOLDING? if anyone held the whole game it was your OL. our LBs got held as did Warren, Wilfork and Seymour

there was maybe 1 case where Light blatantly held. other than that..it was just an ordinary game except you've never seen Merriman shut down like that. he also got pancaked a twice on both sides :)

I'm not saying we didn't hold, every O-Line does, it just seemed the Pats got away with a couple more obvious calls then the Chargers did....

Its time to move on though, I'm not gonna make an excuse for the guy, but c'mon no one should be judged off of one game.

Vikes99ej
06-02-2007, 08:50 PM
I think Merrimen is the best, but I also think that Terrell Suggs is underrated. It's easy to get looked over being on a defense like the Ravens'.

dcarey20
06-02-2007, 08:52 PM
I think Merrimen is the best, but I also think that Terrell Suggs is underrated. It's easy to get looked over being on a defense like the Ravens'.

Yeah Suggs gets no where near the credit that he deserves sometimes. While I agree that Merriman is the best of the 3, Suggs is the most complete of the 3 in terms of pass rushing, pass coverage, and run coverage.

Again, I'd say

1. Shawne Merriman
2. Terrell Suggs
3. DeMarcus Ware

You really can't go wrong with any ranking of the 3. All are outstanding young defensive players.

The Legend
06-03-2007, 03:05 PM
i would take suggs over ware and merriman over suggs

cunningham06
06-03-2007, 05:01 PM
Suggs for me no doubt. His crazy athleticism and ability is often overlooked because of how good the rest of the defense is. The guy is a freak.

SuperKevin
06-03-2007, 06:28 PM
As a pass rusher I'd definately take Merriman but I think Ware is the best overall OLB. he seems to be better in coverage than the other two are.